Hello! Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be discontinued after version 8.0. (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) I came across the following article: ------------------------------------------------ The Future of PowerBuilder Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that PowerBuilder is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, "We are in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions to release versions after v 8.0" Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st Century". Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) ------------------------------------------------ I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. Thanks, O.J.
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
How many times can this issue be fleshed out??? AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware that PB is their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large user base and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar. The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar and features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style. IMO they are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web development and n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as a waste of time. The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more people's ( management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product. A. "O.J. Newman" wrote: > Hello! > > Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the > weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase > was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be > discontinued after version 8.0. > > (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and > I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. > But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) > > At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) > I came across the following article: > > ------------------------------------------------ > The Future of PowerBuilder > > Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that PowerBuilder > is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, "We are > in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions to > release versions after v 8.0" > > Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st > Century". > > Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf > http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) > ------------------------------------------------ > > I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors > over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything > to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for > PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. > > Thanks, > O.J.
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Definitely not true. -- Terry Dykstra (TeamSybase) Please state PB / OS / DB versions in your post. MySybase http://my.sybase.com/mysybase Search Deja: http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/search.asp "O.J. Newman" <ojn@zoominternet.xxxx.net> wrote in message news:3eaIkaE6AHA.249@forums.sybase.com... > Hello! > > Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the > weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase > was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be > discontinued after version 8.0. > > (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and > I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. > But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) > > At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) > I came across the following article: > > ------------------------------------------------ > The Future of PowerBuilder > > Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that PowerBuilder > is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, "We are > in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions to > release versions after v 8.0" > > Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st > Century". > > Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf > http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) > ------------------------------------------------ > > I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors > over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything > to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for > PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. > > Thanks, > O.J. > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom EAS is not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make our customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run it on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I should say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating. IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to third party application servers as they are to DBMS servers. adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>... >How many times can this issue be fleshed out??? > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware that PB is >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large user base >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar. > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar and >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style. IMO they >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web development and >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as a waste >of time. > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more people's ( >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product. > >A. > >"O.J. Newman" wrote: > >> Hello! >> >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be >> discontinued after version 8.0. >> >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) >> >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) >> I came across the following article: >> >> ------------------------------------------------ >> The Future of PowerBuilder >> >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that PowerBuilder >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, "We are >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions to >> release versions after v 8.0" >> >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st >> Century". >> >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf >> http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) >> ------------------------------------------------ >> >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. >> >> Thanks, >> O.J. >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
As long as PB continues to support windows controls (including Windows), it will always be a valid 2-tier tool. They are just adding app server capabilities. That's where everything is going and it's important that Sybase lead the way. Being able to do it with PB is a bonus as far as I am concerned. "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom EAS is > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make our > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run it > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I should > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating. > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to third > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers. > > adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>... > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out??? > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware that > PB is > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large user > base > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar. > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar and > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style. IMO > they > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web development > and > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as a > waste > >of time. > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more > people's ( > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product. > > > >A. > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote: > > > >> Hello! > >> > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be > >> discontinued after version 8.0. > >> > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) > >> > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) > >> I came across the following article: > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------ > >> The Future of PowerBuilder > >> > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that > PowerBuilder > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, "We > are > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions to > >> release versions after v 8.0" > >> > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st > >> Century". > >> > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf > >> http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) > >> ------------------------------------------------ > >> > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> O.J. > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
True. But when J2EE capabilities are already built into the server we use, it is shortsightedly greedy to ask use to ask our customers to buy another piece of server software. Or didn't you notice that DPB is being disabled in PB8? Daniel Coppersmith wrote in message ... >As long as PB continues to support windows controls (including Windows), it >will always be a valid 2-tier tool. They are just adding app server >capabilities. That's where everything is going and it's important that >Sybase lead the way. Being able to do it with PB is a bonus as far as I am >concerned. > > >"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message >news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... >> The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom EAS >is >> not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make our >> customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run it >> on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I >should >> say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating. >> IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to >third >> party application servers as they are to DBMS servers. >> >> adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>... >> >How many times can this issue be fleshed out??? >> > >> >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware >that >> PB is >> >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large >user >> base >> >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar. >> > >> >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar >and >> >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style. >IMO >> they >> >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web development >> and >> >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as a >> waste >> >of time. >> > >> >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more >> people's ( >> >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product. >> > >> >A. >> > >> >"O.J. Newman" wrote: >> > >> >> Hello! >> >> >> >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the >> >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase >> >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be >> >> discontinued after version 8.0. >> >> >> >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and >> >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. >> >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) >> >> >> >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) >> >> I came across the following article: >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------ >> >> The Future of PowerBuilder >> >> >> >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that >> PowerBuilder >> >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, "We >> are >> >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions to >> >> release versions after v 8.0" >> >> >> >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st >> >> Century". >> >> >> >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf >> >> http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) >> >> ------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors >> >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything >> >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for >> >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> O.J. >> > >> >> > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Application servers are more robust than DPB, and thus it's demise. You can wrap PB in COM objects and use them in MTS. Not sure about the other app servers on the market though. How would you want PB to be able to be used in transaction servers that it cannot do today? What server do you use? "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message news:Ivn7XaH6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com... > True. But when J2EE capabilities are already built into the server we use, > it is shortsightedly greedy to ask use to ask our customers to buy another > piece of server software. Or didn't you notice that DPB is being disabled in > PB8? > > Daniel Coppersmith wrote in message ... > >As long as PB continues to support windows controls (including Windows), it > >will always be a valid 2-tier tool. They are just adding app server > >capabilities. That's where everything is going and it's important that > >Sybase lead the way. Being able to do it with PB is a bonus as far as I am > >concerned. > > > > > >"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message > >news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... > >> The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom EAS > >is > >> not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make > our > >> customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run > it > >> on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I > >should > >> say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating. > >> IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to > >third > >> party application servers as they are to DBMS servers. > >> > >> adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>... > >> >How many times can this issue be fleshed out??? > >> > > >> >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware > >that > >> PB is > >> >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large > >user > >> base > >> >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar. > >> > > >> >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar > >and > >> >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style. > >IMO > >> they > >> >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web development > >> and > >> >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as a > >> waste > >> >of time. > >> > > >> >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more > >> people's ( > >> >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product. > >> > > >> >A. > >> > > >> >"O.J. Newman" wrote: > >> > > >> >> Hello! > >> >> > >> >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the > >> >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase > >> >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be > >> >> discontinued after version 8.0. > >> >> > >> >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and > >> >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. > >> >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) > >> >> > >> >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) > >> >> I came across the following article: > >> >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------ > >> >> The Future of PowerBuilder > >> >> > >> >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that > >> PowerBuilder > >> >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, > "We > >> are > >> >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions to > >> >> release versions after v 8.0" > >> >> > >> >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st > >> >> Century". > >> >> > >> >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf > >> >> http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) > >> >> ------------------------------------------------ > >> >> > >> >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors > >> >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything > >> >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for > >> >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. > >> >> > >> >> Thanks, > >> >> O.J. > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow their user base? You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, not just one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was 4-5 years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a different movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector with Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here? PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. It helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is quite content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice out there. Already in the application server market and made your choice with a competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license. -- <hopethishelps /> Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom EAS is > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make our > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run it > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I should > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating. > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to third > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers. > > adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>... > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out??? > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware that > PB is > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large user > base > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar. > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar and > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style. IMO > they > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web development > and > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as a > waste > >of time. > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more > people's ( > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product. > > > >A. > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote: > > > >> Hello! > >> > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be > >> discontinued after version 8.0. > >> > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) > >> > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) > >> I came across the following article: > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------ > >> The Future of PowerBuilder > >> > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that > PowerBuilder > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, "We > are > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions to > >> release versions after v 8.0" > >> > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st > >> Century". > >> > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf > >> http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) > >> ------------------------------------------------ > >> > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> O.J. > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Well said Roy A. "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote: > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow their > user base? > > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, not just > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was 4-5 > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a different > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector with > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here? > > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. It > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is quite > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice out > there. > > Already in the application server market and made your choice with a > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license. > > -- > <hopethishelps /> > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com > > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom EAS > is > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make our > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run it > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I > should > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating. > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to > third > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers. > > > > adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>... > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out??? > > > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware > that > > PB is > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large > user > > base > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar. > > > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar > and > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style. > IMO > > they > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web development > > and > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as a > > waste > > >of time. > > > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more > > people's ( > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product. > > > > > >A. > > > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote: > > > > > >> Hello! > > >> > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be > > >> discontinued after version 8.0. > > >> > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) > > >> > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) > > >> I came across the following article: > > >> > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder > > >> > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that > > PowerBuilder > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, "We > > are > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions to > > >> release versions after v 8.0" > > >> > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st > > >> Century". > > >> > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf > > >> http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > >> > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> O.J. > > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
It's Oracle 8i. It could be running on Unix, so COM is out. It's web functions we are after, not transaction serving - just putting up a web dw report is proving very difficult. Daniel Coppersmith wrote in message ... >Application servers are more robust than DPB, and thus it's demise. You can >wrap PB in COM objects and use them in MTS. Not sure about the other app >servers on the market though. > >How would you want PB to be able to be used in transaction servers that it >cannot do today? What server do you use? > >"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message >news:Ivn7XaH6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com... >> True. But when J2EE capabilities are already built into the server we use, >> it is shortsightedly greedy to ask use to ask our customers to buy another >> piece of server software. Or didn't you notice that DPB is being disabled >in >> PB8? >> >> Daniel Coppersmith wrote in message ... >> >As long as PB continues to support windows controls (including Windows), >it >> >will always be a valid 2-tier tool. They are just adding app server >> >capabilities. That's where everything is going and it's important that >> >Sybase lead the way. Being able to do it with PB is a bonus as far as I >am >> >concerned. >> > >> > >> >"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message >> >news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... >> >> The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom >EAS >> >is >> >> not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make >> our >> >> customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run >> it >> >> on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I >> >should >> >> say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating. >> >> IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to >> >third >> >> party application servers as they are to DBMS servers. >> >> >> >> adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>... >> >> >How many times can this issue be fleshed out??? >> >> > >> >> >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware >> >that >> >> PB is >> >> >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large >> >user >> >> base >> >> >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar. >> >> > >> >> >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to >jaguar >> >and >> >> >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java >style. >> >IMO >> >> they >> >> >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web >development >> >> and >> >> >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as >a >> >> waste >> >> >of time. >> >> > >> >> >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more >> >> people's ( >> >> >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product. >> >> > >> >> >A. >> >> > >> >> >"O.J. Newman" wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> Hello! >> >> >> >> >> >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the >> >> >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase >> >> >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be >> >> >> discontinued after version 8.0. >> >> >> >> >> >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and >> >> >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. >> >> >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) >> >> >> >> >> >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) >> >> >> I came across the following article: >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> The Future of PowerBuilder >> >> >> >> >> >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that >> >> PowerBuilder >> >> >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, >> "We >> >> are >> >> >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions >to >> >> >> release versions after v 8.0" >> >> >> >> >> >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the >21st >> >> >> Century". >> >> >> >> >> >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf >> >> >> http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors >> >> >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything >> >> >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for >> >> >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> O.J. >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
So...in other words, being bought by Sybase was the worst thing that happeneded to PowerBuilder after all, wasn't it? Now it's not about PB anymore, it's about Sybase's larger goals. I'm glad Sun has more of a vision when it comes to Java and doesn't make it run only on Sun hardware and with only Sun-approved middleware (ditto for Delphi from Borland). We just had a meeting this week at work about cancelling future support for the Sybase DBMS in our product (no one in the market wants it anymore). With Sybase's DBMS business slowly out the door, PB dying, EA Server and PowerJ still being limited mostly to older PB shops (I still don't see it being mentioned as often as WebLogic or BEA amongs PHBs), I wonder what Sybase's long-term strategy can be. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- Jacek Furmankiewicz STS Systems - http://www.stssystems.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com... > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow their > user base? > > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, not just > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was 4-5 > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a different > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector with > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here? > > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. It > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is quite > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice out > there. > > Already in the application server market and made your choice with a > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license. > > -- > <hopethishelps /> > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com > > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom EAS > is > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make our > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run it > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I > should > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating. > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to > third > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers. > > > > adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>... > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out??? > > > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware > that > > PB is > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large > user > > base > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar. > > > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar > and > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style. > IMO > > they > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web development > > and > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as a > > waste > > >of time. > > > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more > > people's ( > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product. > > > > > >A. > > > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote: > > > > > >> Hello! > > >> > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be > > >> discontinued after version 8.0. > > >> > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) > > >> > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) > > >> I came across the following article: > > >> > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder > > >> > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that > > PowerBuilder > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, "We > > are > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions to > > >> release versions after v 8.0" > > >> > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st > > >> Century". > > >> > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf > > >> http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > >> > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> O.J. > > > > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Roy, Are you a Sybase employee? Is this really the direction Sybase is going in? If I do understand you correctly Sybase is currently or has been concentrating on the E-Portal arena and Powerbuilder is only along for the ride. Roy just from a general point of view, how many e-portal programs will be developed and how many smaller based applications will be developed in the future? What is the target market and I guess you feel that Sybase can go head long against I do not think that it is fair for you to make the comment that: "Already in the application server market and made your choice with a competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license." For individual developers, this is not a small sum. The EA-server license is only for developement also and more has to be spent for the deployement. Sure we small time developers and users of PB are worried about our livelihood. Even for permanent employees if the PB goes then what of us? Microsoft in its evolution of VB has never left sight of the people who made VB what it is today. One of the reasons for the success of VB is the slow but steady evolution that did not turn its back on the small developers. This helped them as it also built a big base of applications and resources (small time developers) out there that could easily be integrated into their enterprise applications without retraining and with little engineering. In comparison if PB is positioned such that it is only for the bigwigs and enterprise systems it will see a demise in the usage at the lower level due to the price entry problem. Furthermore the evolution path taken by Sybase for powerbuilder is seeing less usage of this tool in the market thus the expertise base is going to shrink. Who do you think smaller and mid sized companies growing would select if when upsizing if they have most of thier applications written in VB. If this is the official marketing strategy of Sybase, I think it really requires a rethink. Who do you think we small farts would recommend if we give up PB and go with IBM's visual age of Microsoft's VB? "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com... > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow their > user base? > > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, not just > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was 4-5 > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a different > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector with > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here? > > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. It > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is quite > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice out > there. > > Already in the application server market and made your choice with a > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license. > > -- > <hopethishelps /> > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com > > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom EAS > is > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make our > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run it > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I > should > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating. > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to > third > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers. > > > > adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>... > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out??? > > > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware > that > > PB is > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large > user > > base > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar. > > > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar > and > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style. > IMO > > they > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web development > > and > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as a > > waste > > >of time. > > > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more > > people's ( > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product. > > > > > >A. > > > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote: > > > > > >> Hello! > > >> > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be > > >> discontinued after version 8.0. > > >> > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) > > >> > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) > > >> I came across the following article: > > >> > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder > > >> > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that > > PowerBuilder > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, "We > > are > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions to > > >> release versions after v 8.0" > > >> > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st > > >> Century". > > >> > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf > > >> http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > >> > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> O.J. > > > > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Roy is not a Sybase employee..... that's a given since he's part of the TEAMSYBASE which is a user based group. P. DPC wrote in message ... >Roy, > >Are you a Sybase employee? Is this really the direction Sybase is going in? > >If I do understand you correctly Sybase is currently or has been >concentrating on the E-Portal arena and Powerbuilder is only along for the >ride. Roy just from a general point of view, how many e-portal programs >will be developed and how many smaller based applications will be developed >in the future? What is the target market and I guess you feel that Sybase >can go head long against > >I do not think that it is fair for you to make the comment that: "Already >in the application server market and made your choice with a competing app >server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to invest >millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just because you >spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license." For individual developers, this is >not a small sum. The EA-server license is only for developement also and >more has to be spent for the deployement. Sure we small time developers and >users of PB are worried about our livelihood. Even for permanent employees >if the PB goes then what of us? > >Microsoft in its evolution of VB has never left sight of the people who made >VB what it is today. One of the reasons for the success of VB is the slow >but steady evolution that did not turn its back on the small developers. >This helped them as it also built a big base of applications and resources >(small time developers) out there that could easily be integrated into their >enterprise applications without retraining and with little engineering. > >In comparison if PB is positioned such that it is only for the bigwigs and >enterprise systems it will see a demise in the usage at the lower level due >to the price entry problem. Furthermore the evolution path taken by Sybase >for powerbuilder is seeing less usage of this tool in the market thus the >expertise base is going to shrink. Who do you think smaller and mid sized >companies growing would select if when upsizing if they have most of thier >applications written in VB. > >If this is the official marketing strategy of Sybase, I think it really >requires a rethink. Who do you think we small farts would recommend if we >give up PB and go with IBM's visual age of Microsoft's VB? > > > > > >"Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in >message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com... >> Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow >their >> user base? >> >> You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, not >just >> one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was 4-5 >> years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a different >> movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its >> engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere >> Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector with >> Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here? >> >> PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. It >> helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is quite >> content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer >> concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice out >> there. >> >> Already in the application server market and made your choice with a >> competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect >Sybase >> to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just >> because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license. >> >> -- >> <hopethishelps /> >> Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] >> mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com >> >> "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message >> news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... >> > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom >EAS >> is >> > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make >our >> > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run >it >> > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I >> should >> > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating. >> > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to >> third >> > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers. >> > >> > adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>... >> > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out??? >> > > >> > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware >> that >> > PB is >> > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large >> user >> > base >> > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar. >> > > >> > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar >> and >> > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style. >> IMO >> > they >> > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web >development >> > and >> > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as >a >> > waste >> > >of time. >> > > >> > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more >> > people's ( >> > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product. >> > > >> > >A. >> > > >> > >"O.J. Newman" wrote: >> > > >> > >> Hello! >> > >> >> > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the >> > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase >> > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be >> > >> discontinued after version 8.0. >> > >> >> > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and >> > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. >> > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) >> > >> >> > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) >> > >> I came across the following article: >> > >> >> > >> ------------------------------------------------ >> > >> The Future of PowerBuilder >> > >> >> > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that >> > PowerBuilder >> > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, >"We >> > are >> > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions >to >> > >> release versions after v 8.0" >> > >> >> > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st >> > >> Century". >> > >> >> > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf >> > >> http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) >> > >> ------------------------------------------------ >> > >> >> > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors >> > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything >> > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for >> > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. >> > >> >> > >> Thanks, >> > >> O.J. >> > > >> > >> > >> >> > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Seems like this debate has been going on for years and yet Sybase still makes money. That might be something. Roy's comments from above seem very relavent. Sybase is a market driven company. PB ran on Mac and Unix, but the market wasn't there for it so they dropped it. If you build a product and don't sell enough to make a profit, prudence demands you re-evaluate whether you want to keep making it. Comparing PB to Java is unfair. First, PB was an established client-server development tool long before Java was an itch in Sun's pants. Java still is not a production grade Windows development tool in my mind, and may never be. Java was developed to "develop once run anywhere" (yeah, in theory). PB works great in EA Server. PB doesn't work in other servers because they don't have the PBVM. Should Sybase try to convince WebLogic and BEA to include the PBVM? I think that's a great idea, but I haven't done any research. It might not be worth the effort. PB continues to be a premier Windows development tool. I would gladly pit any <skilled> PB developer against the field for developing Windows apps. But the simple fact of the matter is client-server is being replaced. Sybase needs to make money. It's great that Java runs on everybody's servers, but how much money does Sun make from Java running on BEA or WebLogic? Welcome to the 21st century. You have a plethera of tools to pick from, but pick wisely. Not all will be around. Do I think Sybase will be around, I do. Are you doing client server development? Then PBs a great choice. Are you doing web work and can pick your server? Then EAS with PB or C++ or Java components are a great choice. Do you have no control over your server? Well, maybe Sybase isn't a fit. "Jacek Furmankiewicz" <jfurmankiewicz@stssystems.com> wrote in message news:c4QAWlR6AHA.178@forums.sybase.com... > So...in other words, being bought by Sybase was the worst thing that > happeneded to PowerBuilder > after all, wasn't it? Now it's not about PB anymore, it's about Sybase's > larger goals. I'm glad Sun > has more of a vision when it comes to Java and doesn't make it run only on > Sun hardware and with > only Sun-approved middleware (ditto for Delphi from Borland). > > We just had a meeting this week at work about cancelling future support for > the Sybase DBMS in our > product (no one in the market wants it anymore). With Sybase's DBMS business > slowly out the door, > PB dying, EA Server and PowerJ still being limited mostly to older PB shops > (I still don't see it being mentioned as often as WebLogic or BEA amongs > PHBs), I wonder what Sybase's long-term strategy can be. > - > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jacek Furmankiewicz > STS Systems - http://www.stssystems.com > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in > message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com... > > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow > their > > user base? > > > > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, not > just > > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was 4-5 > > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a different > > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its > > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere > > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector with > > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here? > > > > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. It > > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is quite > > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer > > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice out > > there. > > > > Already in the application server market and made your choice with a > > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect > Sybase > > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just > > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license. > > > > -- > > <hopethishelps /> > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com > > > > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message > > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... > > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom > EAS > > is > > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make > our > > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run > it > > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I > > should > > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating. > > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to > > third > > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers. > > > > > > adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>... > > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out??? > > > > > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware > > that > > > PB is > > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large > > user > > > base > > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar. > > > > > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar > > and > > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style. > > IMO > > > they > > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web > development > > > and > > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as > a > > > waste > > > >of time. > > > > > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more > > > people's ( > > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product. > > > > > > > >A. > > > > > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote: > > > > > > > >> Hello! > > > >> > > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the > > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase > > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be > > > >> discontinued after version 8.0. > > > >> > > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and > > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. > > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) > > > >> > > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) > > > >> I came across the following article: > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder > > > >> > > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that > > > PowerBuilder > > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, > "We > > > are > > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions > to > > > >> release versions after v 8.0" > > > >> > > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st > > > >> Century". > > > >> > > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf > > > >> http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > > >> > > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors > > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything > > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for > > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. > > > >> > > > >> Thanks, > > > >> O.J. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I think you may be going overboard just a little here Jacek. I don't think anyone is going to contest that PB has lost it's stranglehold on the client-server industry that it had a few years ago. However, Sybase's DBMS slowly out the door??? Sybase has not lost marketshare in the DBMS world. It's license revenue on DBMS's has increased over the past 2 years (not decreased), they dominate the mobile market, they have a strong foothold in the portal market, and they have concluded that the pure app-server market is not the bottomless pit that everyone first thought. If you think back, what was the turning point for the Sybase/Oracle wars?? Yes, Sybase System 10 was a part of it, but the much bigger part was Oracle's supporting products, the financial services, hooks into SAP etc that gave them the lead. Now Sybase is doing the same thing, building verticals on top of their app-server that support the products everyone is already using, like Portals, Financials, CRM, Data Warehousing, etc etc. Sybase is *NOT* Powersoft, it's much, much more than that and anyone that just spends a little time looking at their product portfolio will be able to determine what direction they are taking. Everyone has already figured out that the future is not Tools. You need tools to support more long-term products like app-servers, DBMS's etc. That's where I see Sybase's focus right now. We're developers, so our focus is on tools and that's where we'd like Sybase to focus, but that ain't gonna happen. Look at Borland. They have some great tools. No-one has ever argued that fact, but that has not exactly made them the powerhouse success story has it? IBM, Oracle, Microsoft, Sun have made their living feeding off a core product set and providing the supporting tools and services. Sybase had lost that focus and actually, acquiring Powersoft all those years ago was just the beginning of a re-focus. Now their strategy is beginning to unfold and take shape. Ever wondered why the Oracle "million dollar" bet doesn't include Sybase and yet they are targeting Sybase customers specifically in other areas? Oracle reps will tell you it's because they don't consider Sybase a competitor (in their own inimitable arrogance) and yet they're going after that specific market because they're now seeing Oracle customers switching to Sybase (I'm seeing this myself at 2 clients, so I know it's happening). Also, if you take the time to ask, you'll also find that the EAServer client list is not predominantly ex-PB shops. Yes, PB shops are *more likely* to go with an EAServer, but don't even consider that all Sybase shops are PB Shops. Just because a vision is not clear to everyone doesn't mean it's not a vision, or that it's not the correct vision. Anytime you see an IBM teaming up with Sybase, or at least acknowledging that they need Sybase products to support their own customers (can anyone spell NEON), you have to see that they are on the right track. We may not like it, but you know what, that's probably why we're not running Sybase or Microsoft or Sun. Are they doing everything right? I don't know. I know there are things that *I* would do differently, but I do know that I am not the CEO of a billion-dollar company (and yes, Sybase will once again reach that plateau this financial year, something analysts said was impossible just 3 years ago), so I took some time to try and figure out what they are doing and why they are going there. I don't pretend to know all the answers, but I'm pretty sure that I have a reasonable idea and quite honestly, I like the view I'm seeing. It's been a while since Oracle looked at Sybase customers hungrily rather than looking as if it was something stuck to their shoe. The difference now is that Sybase is staring them right back in the face and saying "Take your best shot. We won't go down again". --- Note: Prior opinion is mine, and mine only. Not even my wife will take responsibility anymore regards, Bill Jacek Furmankiewicz wrote: > So...in other words, being bought by Sybase was the worst thing that > happeneded to PowerBuilder > after all, wasn't it? Now it's not about PB anymore, it's about Sybase's > larger goals. I'm glad Sun > has more of a vision when it comes to Java and doesn't make it run only on > Sun hardware and with > only Sun-approved middleware (ditto for Delphi from Borland). > > We just had a meeting this week at work about cancelling future support for > the Sybase DBMS in our > product (no one in the market wants it anymore). With Sybase's DBMS business > slowly out the door, > PB dying, EA Server and PowerJ still being limited mostly to older PB shops > (I still don't see it being mentioned as often as WebLogic or BEA amongs > PHBs), I wonder what Sybase's long-term strategy can be. > - > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jacek Furmankiewicz > STS Systems - http://www.stssystems.com > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in > message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com... > > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow > their > > user base? > > > > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, not > just > > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was 4-5 > > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a different > > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its > > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere > > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector with > > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here? > > > > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. It > > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is quite > > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer > > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice out > > there. > > > > Already in the application server market and made your choice with a > > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect > Sybase > > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just > > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license. > > > > -- > > <hopethishelps /> > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com > > > > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message > > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... > > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom > EAS > > is > > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make > our > > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run > it > > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I > > should > > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating. > > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to > > third > > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers. > > > > > > adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>... > > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out??? > > > > > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware > > that > > > PB is > > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large > > user > > > base > > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar. > > > > > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar > > and > > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style. > > IMO > > > they > > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web > development > > > and > > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as > a > > > waste > > > >of time. > > > > > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more > > > people's ( > > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product. > > > > > > > >A. > > > > > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote: > > > > > > > >> Hello! > > > >> > > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the > > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase > > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be > > > >> discontinued after version 8.0. > > > >> > > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and > > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. > > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) > > > >> > > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) > > > >> I came across the following article: > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder > > > >> > > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that > > > PowerBuilder > > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, > "We > > > are > > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions > to > > > >> release versions after v 8.0" > > > >> > > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st > > > >> Century". > > > >> > > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf > > > >> http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > > >> > > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors > > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything > > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for > > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. > > > >> > > > >> Thanks, > > > >> O.J. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Bill Green[TeamSybase] ----------------------------------------------------------- Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/ Good Links to know, good places to go: Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often Find things like: -- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available -- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available -- Components, White papers, articles and more -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak) -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components) PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com Power3 - Custom Training - http://www.power3.com Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com -----------------------------------------------------------
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I think you missed the main points of Roy's argument. He was saying that EA Server is the basis point of Sybase's strategies as all other things revolve around it - the portal product is built on it, PB components run in it, the financal products are built on it and the wireless techonology is built on it. Sybase is not going to kill PB anytime soon. PB desktop is dirt cheap. PB enterprise is cheap too for anyone doing any substantial development when compared to the big picture. Just because Sybase is focusing on making PB more compatible with EA Server does not mean they are going to suddenly rip out all the Windows platform capabilities. It'll still be there. You can still use PB to do traditional client server development. Roy's point about the $3k license is that Sybase is not going to drop everything it is doing to attend to the needs of people who picked a different app server that does not support PB components, knowing full well that it didn't. These folks picked middlewear incompatible with PB and so they need to move on to a tool that is compatible with their server. Do I think making the PBVM run in WebLogic or BEA would be a great idea? Absolutely. Am I holding my breath? No. Sybase has an incredible toolset here. Sybase marketing has been piss poor in the past. It's supposed to get better, but again, I am not holding my breath. I still use PB for client server development, I wouldn't pick anything else. I use PB components in EA Server because it's incredibly fast to develop, I leverage my existing knowledge and the tools are easy to use. If I am forced to change app servers, I'll have to lobby against the change of servers, change jobs or change tools, it's a simple as that. As for the comment on VB, from what I hear, migrating a VB app to VB.NET is more like a complete re-write. So is VB.NET an upgrade of VB or is it a new language altogether? Just out of curiosity, does WebLogic and BEA run VB.NET components? "DPC" <derrick@lotuschan.com> wrote in message news:eucUPqR6AHA.178@forums.sybase.com... > Roy, > > Are you a Sybase employee? Is this really the direction Sybase is going in? > > If I do understand you correctly Sybase is currently or has been > concentrating on the E-Portal arena and Powerbuilder is only along for the > ride. Roy just from a general point of view, how many e-portal programs > will be developed and how many smaller based applications will be developed > in the future? What is the target market and I guess you feel that Sybase > can go head long against > > I do not think that it is fair for you to make the comment that: "Already > in the application server market and made your choice with a competing app > server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to invest > millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just because you > spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license." For individual developers, this is > not a small sum. The EA-server license is only for developement also and > more has to be spent for the deployement. Sure we small time developers and > users of PB are worried about our livelihood. Even for permanent employees > if the PB goes then what of us? > > Microsoft in its evolution of VB has never left sight of the people who made > VB what it is today. One of the reasons for the success of VB is the slow > but steady evolution that did not turn its back on the small developers. > This helped them as it also built a big base of applications and resources > (small time developers) out there that could easily be integrated into their > enterprise applications without retraining and with little engineering. > > In comparison if PB is positioned such that it is only for the bigwigs and > enterprise systems it will see a demise in the usage at the lower level due > to the price entry problem. Furthermore the evolution path taken by Sybase > for powerbuilder is seeing less usage of this tool in the market thus the > expertise base is going to shrink. Who do you think smaller and mid sized > companies growing would select if when upsizing if they have most of thier > applications written in VB. > > If this is the official marketing strategy of Sybase, I think it really > requires a rethink. Who do you think we small farts would recommend if we > give up PB and go with IBM's visual age of Microsoft's VB? > > > > > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in > message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com... > > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow > their > > user base? > > > > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, not > just > > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was 4-5 > > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a different > > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its > > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere > > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector with > > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here? > > > > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. It > > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is quite > > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer > > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice out > > there. > > > > Already in the application server market and made your choice with a > > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect > Sybase > > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just > > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license. > > > > -- > > <hopethishelps /> > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com > > > > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message > > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... > > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom > EAS > > is > > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make > our > > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run > it > > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I > > should > > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating. > > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to > > third > > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers. > > > > > > adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>... > > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out??? > > > > > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware > > that > > > PB is > > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large > > user > > > base > > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar. > > > > > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar > > and > > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style. > > IMO > > > they > > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web > development > > > and > > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as > a > > > waste > > > >of time. > > > > > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more > > > people's ( > > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product. > > > > > > > >A. > > > > > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote: > > > > > > > >> Hello! > > > >> > > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the > > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase > > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be > > > >> discontinued after version 8.0. > > > >> > > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and > > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. > > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) > > > >> > > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) > > > >> I came across the following article: > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder > > > >> > > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that > > > PowerBuilder > > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, > "We > > > are > > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions > to > > > >> release versions after v 8.0" > > > >> > > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st > > > >> Century". > > > >> > > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf > > > >> http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > > >> > > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors > > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything > > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for > > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. > > > >> > > > >> Thanks, > > > >> O.J. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
PowerBuilder has *always* been targeted as an Enterprise Development Tool and probably always will. There was a token offering of PB Desktop, and PB Professional has been mildly successful, but the bread-and-butter has always been the enterprise. Microsoft has always targeted the individual and when they realized that future profits will not come from individuals buying products at $149 per, they shifted their focus to the enterprise also. Maybe you havn't noticed, but VB.Net is not targeting the lower end developer. According to analysts, VB developers are leaving the Microsoft product set in droves. (I forget the link to that article, or I'd include it here) because the leap from VB to VB.Net no longer targets the individual. And it would really be a leap to say that IBM targets the individuals with products like Visual Age. I think everyone is missing the point that tools are no longer anyone's focus, but have been relegated to supporting roles. If Portals are the "next big thing", and Sybase e-Portal becomes the player they believe it will, and ePortal is based on EAServer, what skills do you currently own that you can use to contribute to your company/clients future growth with their portal? PowerBuilder, that's what. If you work at a client that is developing wireless technology, and they choose to use the iAnywhere Wireless Server, what skills do you have today that could be useful in that market? PowerBuilder. If your company decides that they need to connect their employees to their CRM and HR systems (as quite a few major companies are already doing), and they need to determine the software infrastructure to connect their employees to their SAP/Peoplesoft/other enterprise systems, do you think they might opt to choose a product like NEON who dominates that marketspace? And Neon Adapters will connect to those services from EAServer or EAServer verticals. You know what product set might come in useful? PowerBuilder. Sure, if you know Java, you have the same advantage, but the point is that future directions do not obsolete your skillset all the time. And if this were not the right direction, then why would Microsoft and Oracle and IBM be building their own products to compete in the same space? (See Microsoft Portal in the latest MSDN shipment). PowerBuilder's loss in marketshare is attributable to three things. Java, a bad product release (7.0 was *not* the best thing that Sybase ever shipped), and a slow realization of the changing market. Then again, you'll see the same thing if you look at any productset out there like VB, Delphi, and even stuff like C++. Time change, people shift. If you think that it won't happen again, even with something like Java, then you're fooling yourself. The question is whether you recognize it early enough and are willing to adapt (hence C++ will never go away, but will continue to see a shrinking market, whereas SmallTalk is virtually off the map). I think Sybase realized it pretty late in the game, but my opinion is that they realized it in time, so you may see some shrinkage in the world we're used to (client-server), but you will also see some growth in other areas (n-tier, middle-tier based solutions). regards, Bill DPC wrote: > Roy, > > Are you a Sybase employee? Is this really the direction Sybase is going in? > > If I do understand you correctly Sybase is currently or has been > concentrating on the E-Portal arena and Powerbuilder is only along for the > ride. Roy just from a general point of view, how many e-portal programs > will be developed and how many smaller based applications will be developed > in the future? What is the target market and I guess you feel that Sybase > can go head long against > > I do not think that it is fair for you to make the comment that: "Already > in the application server market and made your choice with a competing app > server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to invest > millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just because you > spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license." For individual developers, this is > not a small sum. The EA-server license is only for developement also and > more has to be spent for the deployement. Sure we small time developers and > users of PB are worried about our livelihood. Even for permanent employees > if the PB goes then what of us? > > Microsoft in its evolution of VB has never left sight of the people who made > VB what it is today. One of the reasons for the success of VB is the slow > but steady evolution that did not turn its back on the small developers. > This helped them as it also built a big base of applications and resources > (small time developers) out there that could easily be integrated into their > enterprise applications without retraining and with little engineering. > > In comparison if PB is positioned such that it is only for the bigwigs and > enterprise systems it will see a demise in the usage at the lower level due > to the price entry problem. Furthermore the evolution path taken by Sybase > for powerbuilder is seeing less usage of this tool in the market thus the > expertise base is going to shrink. Who do you think smaller and mid sized > companies growing would select if when upsizing if they have most of thier > applications written in VB. > > If this is the official marketing strategy of Sybase, I think it really > requires a rethink. Who do you think we small farts would recommend if we > give up PB and go with IBM's visual age of Microsoft's VB? > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in > message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com... > > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow > their > > user base? > > > > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, not > just > > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was 4-5 > > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a different > > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its > > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere > > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector with > > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here? > > > > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. It > > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is quite > > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer > > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice out > > there. > > > > Already in the application server market and made your choice with a > > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect > Sybase > > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just > > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license. > > > > -- > > <hopethishelps /> > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com > > > > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message > > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... > > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom > EAS > > is > > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make > our > > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run > it > > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I > > should > > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating. > > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to > > third > > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers. > > > > > > adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>... > > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out??? > > > > > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware > > that > > > PB is > > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large > > user > > > base > > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar. > > > > > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar > > and > > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style. > > IMO > > > they > > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web > development > > > and > > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as > a > > > waste > > > >of time. > > > > > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more > > > people's ( > > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product. > > > > > > > >A. > > > > > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote: > > > > > > > >> Hello! > > > >> > > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the > > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase > > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be > > > >> discontinued after version 8.0. > > > >> > > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and > > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. > > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) > > > >> > > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) > > > >> I came across the following article: > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder > > > >> > > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that > > > PowerBuilder > > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, > "We > > > are > > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions > to > > > >> release versions after v 8.0" > > > >> > > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st > > > >> Century". > > > >> > > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf > > > >> http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > > >> > > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors > > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything > > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for > > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. > > > >> > > > >> Thanks, > > > >> O.J. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Bill Green[TeamSybase] ----------------------------------------------------------- Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/ Good Links to know, good places to go: Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often Find things like: -- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available -- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available -- Components, White papers, articles and more -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak) -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components) PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com Power3 - Custom Training - http://www.power3.com Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com -----------------------------------------------------------
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Bill, I am not saying that the desktop or pro is a truly viable product as most developers use Powerbuilder Enterprise. As for the 3K, it may be a drop in a bucket for companies, but for the individual developer/consultant this is not a small thing especially as we want to leverage our experiences and monetary investments (this does not include the cost and time for training etc.). Yes I agree that java due to its popularity and versatility has caused power builder to loose its foothold. However I also know of many companies that have gone back to VB. And it would be foolish to expect java to be the end all. What is happening is the fact that many of us who had signed on to Powerbuilder are finding that the market out there is getting smaller for us. Jobs are getting scarce for both contract and permanent jobs. I guess from all the postings, the small fries like us are trying to know whether we should say Sayonara to PB and bid it adieu. It is hardly feeding us and if Sybase is not concerned about this then it would be catering to only the big businesses that buys into Sybases's suite of products and it would be loosing not only an install base but a resource base also. How many big businesses are there that want to install portals? How many of us will be able to gain contracts and jobs for these projects. What many of us small fries are concerned about, is our survival. Our concern is that the interoperability with other products could be made possible and simplified which would help bolster the sales of powerbuilder. From my experience there is a big market out there for intranet software development but it is hard to sell to companies that powerbuilder is the way to go due to the lukewarm attitude of Sybase and the fact that it is a shrinking market. When you talk about n-tier and middle-tier, what do you mean by middle-tier. Am I not correct to say that ONLY if a company buys into Jaguar, would the "possibility" of leveraging on our PB knowledge be a factor. Whether n-tier or client server to me they are the same market for a PB developer,as you stated we are looking at Enterprise models. On your n-tier growth, I have not seen much of it in Southern California. If I am wrong, I would like to know how many companies here are using the full Sybase n-tier development with PB. How many have jobs open? Having paid a few K for the EAS. Should I pay 4-5K for the class/passport on the EAS? What is a likelihood of getting a job in Southern California using EAS? I have been trying to use EAS on W2K and have not been successful for the last 8 months. I stopped until 3.6.1 was release as it was stated that it would be 2000 compliant but when I installed C5 it gave me other problems. If I could get this off the ground maybe I could help sell the idea of using "EAS" to one of the former companies I used to contract with. Shouldn't Sybase have more partnerships with developers and go into joint development to help build the market. If we had some major systems like a HRMS system that is widely used, built with EAS it would sure help the market and our confidence in Sybase. I think it is a worthwhile for Sybase to look into these matters. I know the they have the financial system what about building other quality systems that could vie against companies like Peoplesoft, Oracles HR etc. We small fries would like to survive and with Sybase if possible; however for all you and everyone else have said it is not very comforting and small fries like me are still in a quandary as to cut our losses at this point or to forge ahead with Sybase. Is Sybase persuing more joint development of projects so that projects will be developed using EAS, just like what is done by companies such as IBM, HP, etc. "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message news:3B151A10.DDE76E0B@teamsybase.com... > PowerBuilder has *always* been targeted as an Enterprise Development Tool and > probably always will. There was a token offering of PB Desktop, and PB > Professional has been mildly successful, but the bread-and-butter has always > been the enterprise. Microsoft has always targeted the individual and when they > realized that future profits will not come from individuals buying products at > $149 per, they shifted their focus to the enterprise also. Maybe you havn't > noticed, but VB.Net is not targeting the lower end developer. According to > analysts, VB developers are leaving the Microsoft product set in droves. (I > forget the link to that article, or I'd include it here) because the leap from > VB to VB.Net no longer targets the individual. > > And it would really be a leap to say that IBM targets the individuals with > products like Visual Age. I think everyone is missing the point that tools are > no longer anyone's focus, but have been relegated to supporting roles. If > Portals are the "next big thing", and Sybase e-Portal becomes the player they > believe it will, and ePortal is based on EAServer, what skills do you currently > own that you can use to contribute to your company/clients future growth with > their portal? PowerBuilder, that's what. If you work at a client that is > developing wireless technology, and they choose to use the iAnywhere Wireless > Server, what skills do you have today that could be useful in that market? > PowerBuilder. If your company decides that they need to connect their employees > to their CRM and HR systems (as quite a few major companies are already doing), > and they need to determine the software infrastructure to connect their > employees to their SAP/Peoplesoft/other enterprise systems, do you think they > might opt to choose a product like NEON who dominates that marketspace? And Neon > Adapters will connect to those services from EAServer or EAServer verticals. You > know what product set might come in useful? PowerBuilder. > > Sure, if you know Java, you have the same advantage, but the point is that > future directions do not obsolete your skillset all the time. And if this were > not the right direction, then why would Microsoft and Oracle and IBM be building > their own products to compete in the same space? (See Microsoft Portal in the > latest MSDN shipment). > > PowerBuilder's loss in marketshare is attributable to three things. Java, a bad > product release (7.0 was *not* the best thing that Sybase ever shipped), and a > slow realization of the changing market. Then again, you'll see the same thing > if you look at any productset out there like VB, Delphi, and even stuff like > C++. Time change, people shift. If you think that it won't happen again, even > with something like Java, then you're fooling yourself. The question is whether > you recognize it early enough and are willing to adapt (hence C++ will never go > away, but will continue to see a shrinking market, whereas SmallTalk is > virtually off the map). I think Sybase realized it pretty late in the game, but > my opinion is that they realized it in time, so you may see some shrinkage in > the world we're used to (client-server), but you will also see some growth in > other areas (n-tier, middle-tier based solutions). > > > regards, > Bill > > > DPC wrote: > > > Roy, > > > > Are you a Sybase employee? Is this really the direction Sybase is going in? > > > > If I do understand you correctly Sybase is currently or has been > > concentrating on the E-Portal arena and Powerbuilder is only along for the > > ride. Roy just from a general point of view, how many e-portal programs > > will be developed and how many smaller based applications will be developed > > in the future? What is the target market and I guess you feel that Sybase > > can go head long against > > > > I do not think that it is fair for you to make the comment that: "Already > > in the application server market and made your choice with a competing app > > server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to invest > > millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just because you > > spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license." For individual developers, this is > > not a small sum. The EA-server license is only for developement also and > > more has to be spent for the deployement. Sure we small time developers and > > users of PB are worried about our livelihood. Even for permanent employees > > if the PB goes then what of us? > > > > Microsoft in its evolution of VB has never left sight of the people who made > > VB what it is today. One of the reasons for the success of VB is the slow > > but steady evolution that did not turn its back on the small developers. > > This helped them as it also built a big base of applications and resources > > (small time developers) out there that could easily be integrated into their > > enterprise applications without retraining and with little engineering. > > > > In comparison if PB is positioned such that it is only for the bigwigs and > > enterprise systems it will see a demise in the usage at the lower level due > > to the price entry problem. Furthermore the evolution path taken by Sybase > > for powerbuilder is seeing less usage of this tool in the market thus the > > expertise base is going to shrink. Who do you think smaller and mid sized > > companies growing would select if when upsizing if they have most of thier > > applications written in VB. > > > > If this is the official marketing strategy of Sybase, I think it really > > requires a rethink. Who do you think we small farts would recommend if we > > give up PB and go with IBM's visual age of Microsoft's VB? > > > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in > > message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com... > > > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow > > their > > > user base? > > > > > > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, not > > just > > > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was 4-5 > > > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a different > > > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its > > > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere > > > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector with > > > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here? > > > > > > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. It > > > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is quite > > > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer > > > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice out > > > there. > > > > > > Already in the application server market and made your choice with a > > > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect > > Sybase > > > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just > > > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license. > > > > > > -- > > > <hopethishelps /> > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com > > > > > > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message > > > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... > > > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom > > EAS > > > is > > > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make > > our > > > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run > > it > > > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I > > > should > > > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating. > > > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to > > > third > > > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers. > > > > > > > > adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>... > > > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out??? > > > > > > > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware > > > that > > > > PB is > > > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large > > > user > > > > base > > > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar. > > > > > > > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar > > > and > > > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style. > > > IMO > > > > they > > > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web > > development > > > > and > > > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as > > a > > > > waste > > > > >of time. > > > > > > > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more > > > > people's ( > > > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product. > > > > > > > > > >A. > > > > > > > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Hello! > > > > >> > > > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the > > > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase > > > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be > > > > >> discontinued after version 8.0. > > > > >> > > > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and > > > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. > > > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) > > > > >> > > > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) > > > > >> I came across the following article: > > > > >> > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder > > > > >> > > > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that > > > > PowerBuilder > > > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, > > "We > > > > are > > > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions > > to > > > > >> release versions after v 8.0" > > > > >> > > > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st > > > > >> Century". > > > > >> > > > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf > > > > >> http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > > > >> > > > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors > > > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything > > > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for > > > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. > > > > >> > > > > >> Thanks, > > > > >> O.J. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Bill Green[TeamSybase] > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards > http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/ > > > Good Links to know, good places to go: > > Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often > Find things like: > -- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available > -- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available > -- Components, White papers, articles and more > -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak) > -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components) > > PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com > > Power3 - Custom Training - http://www.power3.com > Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com > ----------------------------------------------------------- > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I got a developer's license of EA Server for free a while back - it was a special deal. With that and a PB enterprise license I was able to teach myself EAS. With that knowledge I was able to land an EAS contract job. Took some effort on my part, but didn't cost me a penny to learn it (well, I bought Mike Barlotta's book which was worth it). Check mysybase.com's e-shop to see if it's still offered for free as a trial. I have empathy for you with the frustration you feel - I've been there. But being a "small fry" means you have to work a bit harder to keep up in learning the technology. You mention joint development projects that IBM and HP offer. Is it true that IBM teams up with 1 man shops, provides free training and lead generation? You seem to be asking an awful lot of any company if that's what you're expecting. "DPC" <derrick@lotuschan.com> wrote in message news:zVynpSV6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com... > Bill, > > I am not saying that the desktop or pro is a truly viable product as most > developers use Powerbuilder Enterprise. As for the 3K, it may be a drop in > a bucket for companies, but for the individual developer/consultant this is > not a small thing especially as we want to leverage our experiences and > monetary investments (this does not include the cost and time for training > etc.). > > Yes I agree that java due to its popularity and versatility has caused > power builder to loose its foothold. However I also know of many companies > that have gone back to VB. And it would be foolish to expect java to be the > end all. > > What is happening is the fact that many of us who had signed on to > Powerbuilder are finding that the market out there is getting smaller for > us. Jobs are getting scarce for both contract and permanent jobs. I guess > from all the postings, the small fries like us are trying to know whether we > should say Sayonara to PB and bid it adieu. It is hardly feeding us and if > Sybase is not concerned about this then it would be catering to only the big > businesses that buys into Sybases's suite of products and it would be > loosing not only an install base but a resource base also. > > How many big businesses are there that want to install portals? How many of > us will be able to gain contracts and jobs for these projects. What many of > us small fries are concerned about, is our survival. Our concern is that > the interoperability with other products could be made possible and > simplified which would help bolster the sales of powerbuilder. From my > experience there is a big market out there for intranet software development > but it is hard to sell to companies that powerbuilder is the way to go due > to the lukewarm attitude of Sybase and the fact that it is a shrinking > market. > > When you talk about n-tier and middle-tier, what do you mean by middle-tier. > Am I not correct to say that ONLY if a company buys into Jaguar, would the > "possibility" of leveraging on our PB knowledge be a factor. Whether n-tier > or client server to me they are the same market for a PB developer,as you > stated we are looking at Enterprise models. > > On your n-tier growth, I have not seen much of it in Southern California. > If I am wrong, I would like to know how many companies here are using the > full Sybase n-tier development with PB. How many have jobs open? Having > paid a few K for the EAS. Should I pay 4-5K for the class/passport on the > EAS? What is a likelihood of getting a job in Southern California using > EAS? I have been trying to use EAS on W2K and have not been successful for > the last 8 months. I stopped until 3.6.1 was release as it was stated that > it would be 2000 compliant but when I installed C5 it gave me other > problems. If I could get this off the ground maybe I could help sell the > idea of using "EAS" to one of the former companies I used to contract with. > > Shouldn't Sybase have more partnerships with developers and go into joint > development to help build the market. If we had some major systems like a > HRMS system that is widely used, built with EAS it would sure help the > market and our confidence in Sybase. I think it is a worthwhile for Sybase > to look into these matters. I know the they have the financial system what > about building other quality systems that could vie against companies like > Peoplesoft, Oracles HR etc. We small fries would like to survive and with > Sybase if possible; however for all you and everyone else have said it is > not very comforting and small fries like me are still in a quandary as to > cut our losses at this point or to forge ahead with Sybase. Is Sybase > persuing more joint development of projects so that projects will be > developed using EAS, just like what is done by companies such as IBM, HP, > etc. > > > > "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message > news:3B151A10.DDE76E0B@teamsybase.com... > > PowerBuilder has *always* been targeted as an Enterprise Development Tool > and > > probably always will. There was a token offering of PB Desktop, and PB > > Professional has been mildly successful, but the bread-and-butter has > always > > been the enterprise. Microsoft has always targeted the individual and when > they > > realized that future profits will not come from individuals buying > products at > > $149 per, they shifted their focus to the enterprise also. Maybe you > havn't > > noticed, but VB.Net is not targeting the lower end developer. According to > > analysts, VB developers are leaving the Microsoft product set in droves. > (I > > forget the link to that article, or I'd include it here) because the leap > from > > VB to VB.Net no longer targets the individual. > > > > And it would really be a leap to say that IBM targets the individuals with > > products like Visual Age. I think everyone is missing the point that tools > are > > no longer anyone's focus, but have been relegated to supporting roles. If > > Portals are the "next big thing", and Sybase e-Portal becomes the player > they > > believe it will, and ePortal is based on EAServer, what skills do you > currently > > own that you can use to contribute to your company/clients future growth > with > > their portal? PowerBuilder, that's what. If you work at a client that is > > developing wireless technology, and they choose to use the iAnywhere > Wireless > > Server, what skills do you have today that could be useful in that market? > > PowerBuilder. If your company decides that they need to connect their > employees > > to their CRM and HR systems (as quite a few major companies are already > doing), > > and they need to determine the software infrastructure to connect their > > employees to their SAP/Peoplesoft/other enterprise systems, do you think > they > > might opt to choose a product like NEON who dominates that marketspace? > And Neon > > Adapters will connect to those services from EAServer or EAServer > verticals. You > > know what product set might come in useful? PowerBuilder. > > > > Sure, if you know Java, you have the same advantage, but the point is that > > future directions do not obsolete your skillset all the time. And if this > were > > not the right direction, then why would Microsoft and Oracle and IBM be > building > > their own products to compete in the same space? (See Microsoft Portal in > the > > latest MSDN shipment). > > > > PowerBuilder's loss in marketshare is attributable to three things. Java, > a bad > > product release (7.0 was *not* the best thing that Sybase ever shipped), > and a > > slow realization of the changing market. Then again, you'll see the same > thing > > if you look at any productset out there like VB, Delphi, and even stuff > like > > C++. Time change, people shift. If you think that it won't happen again, > even > > with something like Java, then you're fooling yourself. The question is > whether > > you recognize it early enough and are willing to adapt (hence C++ will > never go > > away, but will continue to see a shrinking market, whereas SmallTalk is > > virtually off the map). I think Sybase realized it pretty late in the > game, but > > my opinion is that they realized it in time, so you may see some shrinkage > in > > the world we're used to (client-server), but you will also see some growth > in > > other areas (n-tier, middle-tier based solutions). > > > > > > regards, > > Bill > > > > > > DPC wrote: > > > > > Roy, > > > > > > Are you a Sybase employee? Is this really the direction Sybase is going > in? > > > > > > If I do understand you correctly Sybase is currently or has been > > > concentrating on the E-Portal arena and Powerbuilder is only along for > the > > > ride. Roy just from a general point of view, how many e-portal programs > > > will be developed and how many smaller based applications will be > developed > > > in the future? What is the target market and I guess you feel that > Sybase > > > can go head long against > > > > > > I do not think that it is fair for you to make the comment that: > "Already > > > in the application server market and made your choice with a competing > app > > > server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to invest > > > millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just because > you > > > spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license." For individual developers, this > is > > > not a small sum. The EA-server license is only for developement also > and > > > more has to be spent for the deployement. Sure we small time developers > and > > > users of PB are worried about our livelihood. Even for permanent > employees > > > if the PB goes then what of us? > > > > > > Microsoft in its evolution of VB has never left sight of the people who > made > > > VB what it is today. One of the reasons for the success of VB is the > slow > > > but steady evolution that did not turn its back on the small developers. > > > This helped them as it also built a big base of applications and > resources > > > (small time developers) out there that could easily be integrated into > their > > > enterprise applications without retraining and with little engineering. > > > > > > In comparison if PB is positioned such that it is only for the bigwigs > and > > > enterprise systems it will see a demise in the usage at the lower level > due > > > to the price entry problem. Furthermore the evolution path taken by > Sybase > > > for powerbuilder is seeing less usage of this tool in the market thus > the > > > expertise base is going to shrink. Who do you think smaller and mid > sized > > > companies growing would select if when upsizing if they have most of > thier > > > applications written in VB. > > > > > > If this is the official marketing strategy of Sybase, I think it really > > > requires a rethink. Who do you think we small farts would recommend if > we > > > give up PB and go with IBM's visual age of Microsoft's VB? > > > > > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote > in > > > message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com... > > > > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow > > > their > > > > user base? > > > > > > > > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, > not > > > just > > > > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was > 4-5 > > > > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a > different > > > > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its > > > > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere > > > > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector > with > > > > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here? > > > > > > > > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. > It > > > > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is > quite > > > > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer > > > > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice > out > > > > there. > > > > > > > > Already in the application server market and made your choice with a > > > > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect > > > Sybase > > > > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure > just > > > > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > <hopethishelps /> > > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] > > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com > > > > > > > > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message > > > > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... > > > > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for > whom > > > EAS > > > > is > > > > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to > make > > > our > > > > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to > run > > > it > > > > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe > I > > > > should > > > > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is > excruciating. > > > > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open > to > > > > third > > > > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers. > > > > > > > > > > adam simmonds wrote in message > <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>... > > > > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out??? > > > > > > > > > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are > aware > > > > that > > > > > PB is > > > > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the > large > > > > user > > > > > base > > > > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar. > > > > > > > > > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to > jaguar > > > > and > > > > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java > style. > > > > IMO > > > > > they > > > > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web > > > development > > > > > and > > > > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work > as > > > a > > > > > waste > > > > > >of time. > > > > > > > > > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the > more > > > > > people's ( > > > > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product. > > > > > > > > > > > >A. > > > > > > > > > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hello! > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the > > > > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase > > > > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be > > > > > >> discontinued after version 8.0. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and > > > > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. > > > > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) > > > > > >> > > > > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) > > > > > >> I came across the following article: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > > > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that > > > > > PowerBuilder > > > > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote > Sybase, > > > "We > > > > > are > > > > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full > intentions > > > to > > > > > >> release versions after v 8.0" > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the > 21st > > > > > >> Century". > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf > > > > > >> http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) > > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors > > > > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything > > > > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for > > > > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Thanks, > > > > > >> O.J. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Bill Green[TeamSybase] > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards > > http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/ > > > > > > Good Links to know, good places to go: > > > > Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often > > Find things like: > > -- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available > > -- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available > > -- Components, White papers, articles and more > > -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak) > > -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components) > > > > PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com > > > > Power3 - Custom Training - http://www.power3.com > > Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
That's one way of looking at things, but it's a rather narrow way of looking at things. Kind of like saying that Microsoft Word is no longer the key player once Excel and PowerPoint joined in and now there is a market for Microsoft Office, not only Word alone. >> PB dying, EA Server and PowerJ still being limited mostly to older PB shops PB may be dying in your shop. in many other shops, it is very much alive and kicking. EAServer limited to older PB shops? You've got to be kidding.... need we enumerate the following yet again? C/C++/Java/CORBA/PB component support. PowerJ limited to older PB shops? I'd like to think that you wrote this in the heat of the moment and not with intent... -- <hopethishelps /> Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com "Jacek Furmankiewicz" <jfurmankiewicz@stssystems.com> wrote in message news:c4QAWlR6AHA.178@forums.sybase.com... > So...in other words, being bought by Sybase was the worst thing that > happeneded to PowerBuilder > after all, wasn't it? Now it's not about PB anymore, it's about Sybase's > larger goals. I'm glad Sun > has more of a vision when it comes to Java and doesn't make it run only on > Sun hardware and with > only Sun-approved middleware (ditto for Delphi from Borland). > > We just had a meeting this week at work about cancelling future support for > the Sybase DBMS in our > product (no one in the market wants it anymore). With Sybase's DBMS business > slowly out the door, > PB dying, EA Server and PowerJ still being limited mostly to older PB shops > (I still don't see it being mentioned as often as WebLogic or BEA amongs > PHBs), I wonder what Sybase's long-term strategy can be. > - > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jacek Furmankiewicz > STS Systems - http://www.stssystems.com > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in > message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com... > > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow > their > > user base? > > > > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, not > just > > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was 4-5 > > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a different > > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its > > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere > > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector with > > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here? > > > > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. It > > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is quite > > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer > > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice out > > there. > > > > Already in the application server market and made your choice with a > > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect > Sybase > > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just > > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license. > > > > -- > > <hopethishelps /> > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com > > > > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message > > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... > > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom > EAS > > is > > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make > our > > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run > it > > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I > > should > > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating. > > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to > > third > > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers. > > > > > > adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>... > > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out??? > > > > > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware > > that > > > PB is > > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large > > user > > > base > > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar. > > > > > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar > > and > > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style. > > IMO > > > they > > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web > development > > > and > > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as > a > > > waste > > > >of time. > > > > > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more > > > people's ( > > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product. > > > > > > > >A. > > > > > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote: > > > > > > > >> Hello! > > > >> > > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the > > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase > > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be > > > >> discontinued after version 8.0. > > > >> > > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and > > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. > > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) > > > >> > > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) > > > >> I came across the following article: > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder > > > >> > > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that > > > PowerBuilder > > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, > "We > > > are > > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions > to > > > >> release versions after v 8.0" > > > >> > > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st > > > >> Century". > > > >> > > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf > > > >> http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > > >> > > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors > > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything > > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for > > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. > > > >> > > > >> Thanks, > > > >> O.J. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I am not a Sybase employee, however, this is pretty much the direction Sybase goes in -- no secrets here, no confidential info disclosed. That being said, your interpretation is not accurate -- PowerBuilder is not simply "along for the ride"; it is a product on its own merits, with features added to it overtime that Support Sybase's future direction. So, from a Client/Server tool, it has grown (dare I say 'matured'?) into a Web development tool, with application server deployment capabilities. It just so happens that this appserver is at the core of three MAJOR Sybase products... Target market for portals? Read industry analysis from GIGA, Gartner and others... it's BIG. Individual developers -- Sybase does not ditch them. PB is still a great tool. That being said, how many individual developers work with application servers? If you can afford WebLogic or WebSphere, you can afford EAServer, even as an individual developer. VB? Good luck to you (with .NET being vague as it is) VisualAge? Welcome to the Java world. Kick ass IDE. But try to create a decent client/server app in Java..... At the same token, all your Java components can live in EAServer hapilly ever after... -- <hopethishelps /> Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com "DPC" <derrick@lotuschan.com> wrote in message news:eucUPqR6AHA.178@forums.sybase.com... > Roy, > > Are you a Sybase employee? Is this really the direction Sybase is going in? > > If I do understand you correctly Sybase is currently or has been > concentrating on the E-Portal arena and Powerbuilder is only along for the > ride. Roy just from a general point of view, how many e-portal programs > will be developed and how many smaller based applications will be developed > in the future? What is the target market and I guess you feel that Sybase > can go head long against > > I do not think that it is fair for you to make the comment that: "Already > in the application server market and made your choice with a competing app > server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to invest > millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just because you > spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license." For individual developers, this is > not a small sum. The EA-server license is only for developement also and > more has to be spent for the deployement. Sure we small time developers and > users of PB are worried about our livelihood. Even for permanent employees > if the PB goes then what of us? > > Microsoft in its evolution of VB has never left sight of the people who made > VB what it is today. One of the reasons for the success of VB is the slow > but steady evolution that did not turn its back on the small developers. > This helped them as it also built a big base of applications and resources > (small time developers) out there that could easily be integrated into their > enterprise applications without retraining and with little engineering. > > In comparison if PB is positioned such that it is only for the bigwigs and > enterprise systems it will see a demise in the usage at the lower level due > to the price entry problem. Furthermore the evolution path taken by Sybase > for powerbuilder is seeing less usage of this tool in the market thus the > expertise base is going to shrink. Who do you think smaller and mid sized > companies growing would select if when upsizing if they have most of thier > applications written in VB. > > If this is the official marketing strategy of Sybase, I think it really > requires a rethink. Who do you think we small farts would recommend if we > give up PB and go with IBM's visual age of Microsoft's VB? > > > > > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in > message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com... > > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow > their > > user base? > > > > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, not > just > > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was 4-5 > > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a different > > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its > > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere > > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector with > > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here? > > > > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. It > > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is quite > > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer > > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice out > > there. > > > > Already in the application server market and made your choice with a > > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect > Sybase > > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just > > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license. > > > > -- > > <hopethishelps /> > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com > > > > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message > > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... > > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom > EAS > > is > > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make > our > > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run > it > > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I > > should > > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating. > > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to > > third > > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers. > > > > > > adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>... > > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out??? > > > > > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware > > that > > > PB is > > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large > > user > > > base > > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar. > > > > > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar > > and > > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style. > > IMO > > > they > > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web > development > > > and > > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as > a > > > waste > > > >of time. > > > > > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more > > > people's ( > > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product. > > > > > > > >A. > > > > > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote: > > > > > > > >> Hello! > > > >> > > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the > > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase > > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be > > > >> discontinued after version 8.0. > > > >> > > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and > > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. > > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) > > > >> > > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) > > > >> I came across the following article: > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder > > > >> > > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that > > > PowerBuilder > > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, > "We > > > are > > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions > to > > > >> release versions after v 8.0" > > > >> > > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st > > > >> Century". > > > >> > > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf > > > >> http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > > >> > > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors > > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything > > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for > > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. > > > >> > > > >> Thanks, > > > >> O.J. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Daniel, I do not know about now, but some 7-10 years back, IBM and HP did co-join our proposals to companies. I may be a one man shop but at times I have been involved in the bid for big projects forming a team of developers from other companies and independant consultants. Yes, I come from the mainframe world and IBM and HP at that time did provide expertise in the proposals and even free software and classes only to be paid on gaining the contract. Even when IBM was introducing the Visual Age, I was also given a free package and had to pay for it only if I developed applications and sold them. I had at that time gone with PB 3 as the market was hot for powerbuilder and had left the IBM world. Do you think Sybase ameable to such proposals for joint ventures in developing a HRMS, etc. applications which would help their base of installed EAS? How tight are you with them. It is also good for Sybase to help in the development of major software so that they can ensure that they the installed base is up to specifications. What is worse than a broad installed based is one that has a lot of badly/failed installed bases. In quite a few of my projects I have had to recode and re-structure applications that were supposedly written by CPBs, therefore I have a dim view of the certification. What comes out of these failed/poorly executed installed bases is a lack of confidence in the software and in big companies the "black sheep" of an application that has to be lived with as they had spent large sums of money for them. How do you think peoplesoft got off the ground so fast. To build its base of expertise, free training for the price of working on projects for them for $45/hr for 6mths-1year was the deal when they were ramping up. At that time due to my shortsightedness I stayed with ISI products (the founder started peoplesoft) as I was raking in the money then as a consultant. I do not mind training myself and have done so with powebuilder, little bit of java, front page etc. But I have had little success with EAS especially as I did not at that time have an NT4 machine having it upgraded to W2K server due to the jobs I was getting requiring W2K server. I even bought the EAS library in hardcopy and have been struggling to get EAS to run on my W2K server and practically every upgrade I had run I had encountered problems requiring me to re-install from EAS 3.0 --- another problem that I have encountered. Is there some mind block for me or am I just dumb. I have picked up a book on NT 4.0 and later W2K server and was able to install DNS, DHCP, IIS, exchange server behind a proxy etc. without going to any class. I have been alble to learn and run powerbuilder, vb, java etc all on my own. While on the mainframe I have set up DB2. CICS regions, coded dynamic sql applications in CSP, etc. All of which I had learned on my own mainly by reading the manuals and looking at examples. But EAS is biting me in the but/bum. I am really frustrated with EAS. Is there a GOOD starter book that you could recommend me for EAS as all the manuals were a waste of my money. "Daniel Coppersmith" <daniel@N.0.S.P.A.M_infrontsoftware.com> wrote in message news:LHjwlpV6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... > I got a developer's license of EA Server for free a while back - it was a > special deal. With that and a PB enterprise license I was able to teach > myself EAS. With that knowledge I was able to land an EAS contract job. > Took some effort on my part, but didn't cost me a penny to learn it (well, I > bought Mike Barlotta's book which was worth it). Check mysybase.com's > e-shop to see if it's still offered for free as a trial. > > I have empathy for you with the frustration you feel - I've been there. But > being a "small fry" means you have to work a bit harder to keep up in > learning the technology. > > You mention joint development projects that IBM and HP offer. Is it true > that IBM teams up with 1 man shops, provides free training and lead > generation? You seem to be asking an awful lot of any company if that's > what you're expecting. > > > "DPC" <derrick@lotuschan.com> wrote in message > news:zVynpSV6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com... > > Bill, > > > > I am not saying that the desktop or pro is a truly viable product as most > > developers use Powerbuilder Enterprise. As for the 3K, it may be a drop > in > > a bucket for companies, but for the individual developer/consultant this > is > > not a small thing especially as we want to leverage our experiences and > > monetary investments (this does not include the cost and time for > training > > etc.). > > > > Yes I agree that java due to its popularity and versatility has caused > > power builder to loose its foothold. However I also know of many > companies > > that have gone back to VB. And it would be foolish to expect java to be > the > > end all. > > > > What is happening is the fact that many of us who had signed on to > > Powerbuilder are finding that the market out there is getting smaller for > > us. Jobs are getting scarce for both contract and permanent jobs. I > guess > > from all the postings, the small fries like us are trying to know whether > we > > should say Sayonara to PB and bid it adieu. It is hardly feeding us and > if > > Sybase is not concerned about this then it would be catering to only the > big > > businesses that buys into Sybases's suite of products and it would be > > loosing not only an install base but a resource base also. > > > > How many big businesses are there that want to install portals? How many > of > > us will be able to gain contracts and jobs for these projects. What many > of > > us small fries are concerned about, is our survival. Our concern is that > > the interoperability with other products could be made possible and > > simplified which would help bolster the sales of powerbuilder. From my > > experience there is a big market out there for intranet software > development > > but it is hard to sell to companies that powerbuilder is the way to go due > > to the lukewarm attitude of Sybase and the fact that it is a shrinking > > market. > > > > When you talk about n-tier and middle-tier, what do you mean by > middle-tier. > > Am I not correct to say that ONLY if a company buys into Jaguar, would the > > "possibility" of leveraging on our PB knowledge be a factor. Whether > n-tier > > or client server to me they are the same market for a PB developer,as you > > stated we are looking at Enterprise models. > > > > On your n-tier growth, I have not seen much of it in Southern California. > > If I am wrong, I would like to know how many companies here are using the > > full Sybase n-tier development with PB. How many have jobs open? Having > > paid a few K for the EAS. Should I pay 4-5K for the class/passport on the > > EAS? What is a likelihood of getting a job in Southern California using > > EAS? I have been trying to use EAS on W2K and have not been successful > for > > the last 8 months. I stopped until 3.6.1 was release as it was stated > that > > it would be 2000 compliant but when I installed C5 it gave me other > > problems. If I could get this off the ground maybe I could help sell the > > idea of using "EAS" to one of the former companies I used to contract > with. > > > > Shouldn't Sybase have more partnerships with developers and go into joint > > development to help build the market. If we had some major systems like a > > HRMS system that is widely used, built with EAS it would sure help the > > market and our confidence in Sybase. I think it is a worthwhile for > Sybase > > to look into these matters. I know the they have the financial system > what > > about building other quality systems that could vie against companies like > > Peoplesoft, Oracles HR etc. We small fries would like to survive and with > > Sybase if possible; however for all you and everyone else have said it is > > not very comforting and small fries like me are still in a quandary as to > > cut our losses at this point or to forge ahead with Sybase. Is Sybase > > persuing more joint development of projects so that projects will be > > developed using EAS, just like what is done by companies such as IBM, HP, > > etc. > > > > > > > > "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message > > news:3B151A10.DDE76E0B@teamsybase.com... > > > PowerBuilder has *always* been targeted as an Enterprise Development > Tool > > and > > > probably always will. There was a token offering of PB Desktop, and PB > > > Professional has been mildly successful, but the bread-and-butter has > > always > > > been the enterprise. Microsoft has always targeted the individual and > when > > they > > > realized that future profits will not come from individuals buying > > products at > > > $149 per, they shifted their focus to the enterprise also. Maybe you > > havn't > > > noticed, but VB.Net is not targeting the lower end developer. According > to > > > analysts, VB developers are leaving the Microsoft product set in droves. > > (I > > > forget the link to that article, or I'd include it here) because the > leap > > from > > > VB to VB.Net no longer targets the individual. > > > > > > And it would really be a leap to say that IBM targets the individuals > with > > > products like Visual Age. I think everyone is missing the point that > tools > > are > > > no longer anyone's focus, but have been relegated to supporting roles. > If > > > Portals are the "next big thing", and Sybase e-Portal becomes the player > > they > > > believe it will, and ePortal is based on EAServer, what skills do you > > currently > > > own that you can use to contribute to your company/clients future growth > > with > > > their portal? PowerBuilder, that's what. If you work at a client that is > > > developing wireless technology, and they choose to use the iAnywhere > > Wireless > > > Server, what skills do you have today that could be useful in that > market? > > > PowerBuilder. If your company decides that they need to connect their > > employees > > > to their CRM and HR systems (as quite a few major companies are already > > doing), > > > and they need to determine the software infrastructure to connect their > > > employees to their SAP/Peoplesoft/other enterprise systems, do you think > > they > > > might opt to choose a product like NEON who dominates that marketspace? > > And Neon > > > Adapters will connect to those services from EAServer or EAServer > > verticals. You > > > know what product set might come in useful? PowerBuilder. > > > > > > Sure, if you know Java, you have the same advantage, but the point is > that > > > future directions do not obsolete your skillset all the time. And if > this > > were > > > not the right direction, then why would Microsoft and Oracle and IBM be > > building > > > their own products to compete in the same space? (See Microsoft Portal > in > > the > > > latest MSDN shipment). > > > > > > PowerBuilder's loss in marketshare is attributable to three things. > Java, > > a bad > > > product release (7.0 was *not* the best thing that Sybase ever shipped), > > and a > > > slow realization of the changing market. Then again, you'll see the same > > thing > > > if you look at any productset out there like VB, Delphi, and even stuff > > like > > > C++. Time change, people shift. If you think that it won't happen again, > > even > > > with something like Java, then you're fooling yourself. The question is > > whether > > > you recognize it early enough and are willing to adapt (hence C++ will > > never go > > > away, but will continue to see a shrinking market, whereas SmallTalk is > > > virtually off the map). I think Sybase realized it pretty late in the > > game, but > > > my opinion is that they realized it in time, so you may see some > shrinkage > > in > > > the world we're used to (client-server), but you will also see some > growth > > in > > > other areas (n-tier, middle-tier based solutions). > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > DPC wrote: > > > > > > > Roy, > > > > > > > > Are you a Sybase employee? Is this really the direction Sybase is > going > > in? > > > > > > > > If I do understand you correctly Sybase is currently or has been > > > > concentrating on the E-Portal arena and Powerbuilder is only along for > > the > > > > ride. Roy just from a general point of view, how many e-portal > programs > > > > will be developed and how many smaller based applications will be > > developed > > > > in the future? What is the target market and I guess you feel that > > Sybase > > > > can go head long against > > > > > > > > I do not think that it is fair for you to make the comment that: > > "Already > > > > in the application server market and made your choice with a competing > > app > > > > server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to > invest > > > > millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just because > > you > > > > spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license." For individual developers, > this > > is > > > > not a small sum. The EA-server license is only for developement also > > and > > > > more has to be spent for the deployement. Sure we small time > developers > > and > > > > users of PB are worried about our livelihood. Even for permanent > > employees > > > > if the PB goes then what of us? > > > > > > > > Microsoft in its evolution of VB has never left sight of the people > who > > made > > > > VB what it is today. One of the reasons for the success of VB is the > > slow > > > > but steady evolution that did not turn its back on the small > developers. > > > > This helped them as it also built a big base of applications and > > resources > > > > (small time developers) out there that could easily be integrated into > > their > > > > enterprise applications without retraining and with little > engineering. > > > > > > > > In comparison if PB is positioned such that it is only for the bigwigs > > and > > > > enterprise systems it will see a demise in the usage at the lower > level > > due > > > > to the price entry problem. Furthermore the evolution path taken by > > Sybase > > > > for powerbuilder is seeing less usage of this tool in the market thus > > the > > > > expertise base is going to shrink. Who do you think smaller and mid > > sized > > > > companies growing would select if when upsizing if they have most of > > thier > > > > applications written in VB. > > > > > > > > If this is the official marketing strategy of Sybase, I think it > really > > > > requires a rethink. Who do you think we small farts would recommend > if > > we > > > > give up PB and go with IBM's visual age of Microsoft's VB? > > > > > > > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> > wrote > > in > > > > message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com... > > > > > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to > grow > > > > their > > > > > user base? > > > > > > > > > > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, > > not > > > > just > > > > > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it > was > > 4-5 > > > > > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a > > different > > > > > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as > its > > > > > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere > > > > > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial > sector > > with > > > > > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here? > > > > > > > > > > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. > > It > > > > > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is > > quite > > > > > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no > longer > > > > > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting > practice > > out > > > > > there. > > > > > > > > > > Already in the application server market and made your choice with a > > > > > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't > expect > > > > Sybase > > > > > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure > > just > > > > > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > <hopethishelps /> > > > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] > > > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com > > > > > > > > > > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message > > > > > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... > > > > > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for > > whom > > > > EAS > > > > > is > > > > > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to > > make > > > > our > > > > > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware > to > > run > > > > it > > > > > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or > maybe > > I > > > > > should > > > > > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is > > excruciating. > > > > > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as > open > > to > > > > > third > > > > > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers. > > > > > > > > > > > > adam simmonds wrote in message > > <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>... > > > > > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are > > aware > > > > > that > > > > > > PB is > > > > > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the > > large > > > > > user > > > > > > base > > > > > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to > > jaguar > > > > > and > > > > > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java > > style. > > > > > IMO > > > > > > they > > > > > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web > > > > development > > > > > > and > > > > > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this > work > > as > > > > a > > > > > > waste > > > > > > >of time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the > > more > > > > > > people's ( > > > > > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the > product. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >A. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hello! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the > > > > > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase > > > > > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be > > > > > > >> discontinued after version 8.0. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and > > > > > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. > > > > > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) > > > > > > >> I came across the following article: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that > > > > > > PowerBuilder > > > > > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote > > Sybase, > > > > "We > > > > > > are > > > > > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full > > intentions > > > > to > > > > > > >> release versions after v 8.0" > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in > the > > 21st > > > > > > >> Century". > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf > > > > > > >> http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) > > > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors > > > > > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything > > > > > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for > > > > > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Thanks, > > > > > > >> O.J. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Bill Green[TeamSybase] > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards > > > http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/ > > > > > > > > > Good Links to know, good places to go: > > > > > > Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often > > > Find things like: > > > -- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available > > > -- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available > > > -- Components, White papers, articles and more > > > -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak) > > > -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components) > > > > > > PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com > > > > > > Power3 - Custom Training - http://www.power3.com > > > Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Sybase is definitely open to this type of cooperation. A few other companies have already entered such an alliance w/ Sybase, with products such as application frameworks, distributed reporting apps like WebReport (http://www.powerobjects.com), etc. Your local Sybase sales rep. should be your first stop. -- <hopethishelps /> Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com "DPC" <derrick@lotuschan.com> wrote in message news:ci2bMNZ6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com... > Daniel, > > I do not know about now, but some 7-10 years back, IBM and HP did co-join > our proposals to companies. I may be a one man shop but at times I have > been involved in the bid for big projects forming a team of developers from > other companies and independant consultants. Yes, I come from the mainframe > world and IBM and HP at that time did provide expertise in the proposals and > even free software and classes only to be paid on gaining the contract. > Even when IBM was introducing the Visual Age, I was also given a free > package and had to pay for it only if I developed applications and sold > them. I had at that time gone with PB 3 as the market was hot for > powerbuilder and had left the IBM world. > > Do you think Sybase ameable to such proposals for joint ventures in > developing a HRMS, etc. applications which would help their base of > installed EAS? How tight are you with them. It is also good for Sybase to > help in the development of major software so that they can ensure that they > the installed base is up to specifications. What is worse than a broad > installed based is one that has a lot of badly/failed installed bases. In > quite a few of my projects I have had to recode and re-structure > applications that were supposedly written by CPBs, therefore I have a dim > view of the certification. What comes out of these failed/poorly executed > installed bases is a lack of confidence in the software and in big companies > the "black sheep" of an application that has to be lived with as they had > spent large sums of money for them. > > How do you think peoplesoft got off the ground so fast. To build its base > of expertise, free training for the price of working on projects for them > for $45/hr for 6mths-1year was the deal when they were ramping up. At that > time due to my shortsightedness I stayed with ISI products (the founder > started peoplesoft) as I was raking in the money then as a consultant. I do > not mind training myself and have done so with powebuilder, little bit of > java, front page etc. But I have had little success with EAS especially as > I did not at that time have an NT4 machine having it upgraded to W2K server > due to the jobs I was getting requiring W2K server. I even bought the EAS > library in hardcopy and have been struggling to get EAS to run on my W2K > server and practically every upgrade I had run I had encountered problems > requiring me to re-install from EAS 3.0 --- another problem that I have > encountered. Is there some mind block for me or am I just dumb. I have > picked up a book on NT 4.0 and later W2K server and was able to install DNS, > DHCP, IIS, exchange server behind a proxy etc. without going to any class. > I have been alble to learn and run powerbuilder, vb, java etc all on my own. > While on the mainframe I have set up DB2. CICS regions, coded dynamic sql > applications in CSP, etc. All of which I had learned on my own mainly by > reading the manuals and looking at examples. But EAS is biting me in the > but/bum. I am really frustrated with EAS. > > Is there a GOOD starter book that you could recommend me for EAS as all the > manuals were a waste of my money. > > > > "Daniel Coppersmith" <daniel@N.0.S.P.A.M_infrontsoftware.com> wrote in > message news:LHjwlpV6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... > > I got a developer's license of EA Server for free a while back - it was a > > special deal. With that and a PB enterprise license I was able to teach > > myself EAS. With that knowledge I was able to land an EAS contract job. > > Took some effort on my part, but didn't cost me a penny to learn it (well, > I > > bought Mike Barlotta's book which was worth it). Check mysybase.com's > > e-shop to see if it's still offered for free as a trial. > > > > I have empathy for you with the frustration you feel - I've been there. > But > > being a "small fry" means you have to work a bit harder to keep up in > > learning the technology. > > > > You mention joint development projects that IBM and HP offer. Is it true > > that IBM teams up with 1 man shops, provides free training and lead > > generation? You seem to be asking an awful lot of any company if that's > > what you're expecting. > > > > > > "DPC" <derrick@lotuschan.com> wrote in message > > news:zVynpSV6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com... > > > Bill, > > > > > > I am not saying that the desktop or pro is a truly viable product as > most > > > developers use Powerbuilder Enterprise. As for the 3K, it may be a drop > > in > > > a bucket for companies, but for the individual developer/consultant this > > is > > > not a small thing especially as we want to leverage our experiences and > > > monetary investments (this does not include the cost and time for > > training > > > etc.). > > > > > > Yes I agree that java due to its popularity and versatility has caused > > > power builder to loose its foothold. However I also know of many > > companies > > > that have gone back to VB. And it would be foolish to expect java to be > > the > > > end all. > > > > > > What is happening is the fact that many of us who had signed on to > > > Powerbuilder are finding that the market out there is getting smaller > for > > > us. Jobs are getting scarce for both contract and permanent jobs. I > > guess > > > from all the postings, the small fries like us are trying to know > whether > > we > > > should say Sayonara to PB and bid it adieu. It is hardly feeding us and > > if > > > Sybase is not concerned about this then it would be catering to only the > > big > > > businesses that buys into Sybases's suite of products and it would be > > > loosing not only an install base but a resource base also. > > > > > > How many big businesses are there that want to install portals? How > many > > of > > > us will be able to gain contracts and jobs for these projects. What > many > > of > > > us small fries are concerned about, is our survival. Our concern is > that > > > the interoperability with other products could be made possible and > > > simplified which would help bolster the sales of powerbuilder. From my > > > experience there is a big market out there for intranet software > > development > > > but it is hard to sell to companies that powerbuilder is the way to go > due > > > to the lukewarm attitude of Sybase and the fact that it is a shrinking > > > market. > > > > > > When you talk about n-tier and middle-tier, what do you mean by > > middle-tier. > > > Am I not correct to say that ONLY if a company buys into Jaguar, would > the > > > "possibility" of leveraging on our PB knowledge be a factor. Whether > > n-tier > > > or client server to me they are the same market for a PB developer,as > you > > > stated we are looking at Enterprise models. > > > > > > On your n-tier growth, I have not seen much of it in Southern > California. > > > If I am wrong, I would like to know how many companies here are using > the > > > full Sybase n-tier development with PB. How many have jobs open? > Having > > > paid a few K for the EAS. Should I pay 4-5K for the class/passport on > the > > > EAS? What is a likelihood of getting a job in Southern California using > > > EAS? I have been trying to use EAS on W2K and have not been successful > > for > > > the last 8 months. I stopped until 3.6.1 was release as it was stated > > that > > > it would be 2000 compliant but when I installed C5 it gave me other > > > problems. If I could get this off the ground maybe I could help sell > the > > > idea of using "EAS" to one of the former companies I used to contract > > with. > > > > > > Shouldn't Sybase have more partnerships with developers and go into > joint > > > development to help build the market. If we had some major systems like > a > > > HRMS system that is widely used, built with EAS it would sure help the > > > market and our confidence in Sybase. I think it is a worthwhile for > > Sybase > > > to look into these matters. I know the they have the financial system > > what > > > about building other quality systems that could vie against companies > like > > > Peoplesoft, Oracles HR etc. We small fries would like to survive and > with > > > Sybase if possible; however for all you and everyone else have said it > is > > > not very comforting and small fries like me are still in a quandary as > to > > > cut our losses at this point or to forge ahead with Sybase. Is Sybase > > > persuing more joint development of projects so that projects will be > > > developed using EAS, just like what is done by companies such as IBM, > HP, > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message > > > news:3B151A10.DDE76E0B@teamsybase.com... > > > > PowerBuilder has *always* been targeted as an Enterprise Development > > Tool > > > and > > > > probably always will. There was a token offering of PB Desktop, and PB > > > > Professional has been mildly successful, but the bread-and-butter has > > > always > > > > been the enterprise. Microsoft has always targeted the individual and > > when > > > they > > > > realized that future profits will not come from individuals buying > > > products at > > > > $149 per, they shifted their focus to the enterprise also. Maybe you > > > havn't > > > > noticed, but VB.Net is not targeting the lower end developer. > According > > to > > > > analysts, VB developers are leaving the Microsoft product set in > droves. > > > (I > > > > forget the link to that article, or I'd include it here) because the > > leap > > > from > > > > VB to VB.Net no longer targets the individual. > > > > > > > > And it would really be a leap to say that IBM targets the individuals > > with > > > > products like Visual Age. I think everyone is missing the point that > > tools > > > are > > > > no longer anyone's focus, but have been relegated to supporting roles. > > If > > > > Portals are the "next big thing", and Sybase e-Portal becomes the > player > > > they > > > > believe it will, and ePortal is based on EAServer, what skills do you > > > currently > > > > own that you can use to contribute to your company/clients future > growth > > > with > > > > their portal? PowerBuilder, that's what. If you work at a client that > is > > > > developing wireless technology, and they choose to use the iAnywhere > > > Wireless > > > > Server, what skills do you have today that could be useful in that > > market? > > > > PowerBuilder. If your company decides that they need to connect their > > > employees > > > > to their CRM and HR systems (as quite a few major companies are > already > > > doing), > > > > and they need to determine the software infrastructure to connect > their > > > > employees to their SAP/Peoplesoft/other enterprise systems, do you > think > > > they > > > > might opt to choose a product like NEON who dominates that > marketspace? > > > And Neon > > > > Adapters will connect to those services from EAServer or EAServer > > > verticals. You > > > > know what product set might come in useful? PowerBuilder. > > > > > > > > Sure, if you know Java, you have the same advantage, but the point is > > that > > > > future directions do not obsolete your skillset all the time. And if > > this > > > were > > > > not the right direction, then why would Microsoft and Oracle and IBM > be > > > building > > > > their own products to compete in the same space? (See Microsoft Portal > > in > > > the > > > > latest MSDN shipment). > > > > > > > > PowerBuilder's loss in marketshare is attributable to three things. > > Java, > > > a bad > > > > product release (7.0 was *not* the best thing that Sybase ever > shipped), > > > and a > > > > slow realization of the changing market. Then again, you'll see the > same > > > thing > > > > if you look at any productset out there like VB, Delphi, and even > stuff > > > like > > > > C++. Time change, people shift. If you think that it won't happen > again, > > > even > > > > with something like Java, then you're fooling yourself. The question > is > > > whether > > > > you recognize it early enough and are willing to adapt (hence C++ will > > > never go > > > > away, but will continue to see a shrinking market, whereas SmallTalk > is > > > > virtually off the map). I think Sybase realized it pretty late in the > > > game, but > > > > my opinion is that they realized it in time, so you may see some > > shrinkage > > > in > > > > the world we're used to (client-server), but you will also see some > > growth > > > in > > > > other areas (n-tier, middle-tier based solutions). > > > > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > DPC wrote: > > > > > > > > > Roy, > > > > > > > > > > Are you a Sybase employee? Is this really the direction Sybase is > > going > > > in? > > > > > > > > > > If I do understand you correctly Sybase is currently or has been > > > > > concentrating on the E-Portal arena and Powerbuilder is only along > for > > > the > > > > > ride. Roy just from a general point of view, how many e-portal > > programs > > > > > will be developed and how many smaller based applications will be > > > developed > > > > > in the future? What is the target market and I guess you feel that > > > Sybase > > > > > can go head long against > > > > > > > > > > I do not think that it is fair for you to make the comment that: > > > "Already > > > > > in the application server market and made your choice with a > competing > > > app > > > > > server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to > > invest > > > > > millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just > because > > > you > > > > > spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license." For individual developers, > > this > > > is > > > > > not a small sum. The EA-server license is only for developement > also > > > and > > > > > more has to be spent for the deployement. Sure we small time > > developers > > > and > > > > > users of PB are worried about our livelihood. Even for permanent > > > employees > > > > > if the PB goes then what of us? > > > > > > > > > > Microsoft in its evolution of VB has never left sight of the people > > who > > > made > > > > > VB what it is today. One of the reasons for the success of VB is > the > > > slow > > > > > but steady evolution that did not turn its back on the small > > developers. > > > > > This helped them as it also built a big base of applications and > > > resources > > > > > (small time developers) out there that could easily be integrated > into > > > their > > > > > enterprise applications without retraining and with little > > engineering. > > > > > > > > > > In comparison if PB is positioned such that it is only for the > bigwigs > > > and > > > > > enterprise systems it will see a demise in the usage at the lower > > level > > > due > > > > > to the price entry problem. Furthermore the evolution path taken by > > > Sybase > > > > > for powerbuilder is seeing less usage of this tool in the market > thus > > > the > > > > > expertise base is going to shrink. Who do you think smaller and mid > > > sized > > > > > companies growing would select if when upsizing if they have most of > > > thier > > > > > applications written in VB. > > > > > > > > > > If this is the official marketing strategy of Sybase, I think it > > really > > > > > requires a rethink. Who do you think we small farts would recommend > > if > > > we > > > > > give up PB and go with IBM's visual age of Microsoft's VB? > > > > > > > > > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> > > wrote > > > in > > > > > message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com... > > > > > > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to > > grow > > > > > their > > > > > > user base? > > > > > > > > > > > > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and > goals, > > > not > > > > > just > > > > > > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it > > was > > > 4-5 > > > > > > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a > > > different > > > > > > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as > > its > > > > > > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with > iAnywhere > > > > > > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial > > sector > > > with > > > > > > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here? > > > > > > > > > > > > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for > EAServer. > > > It > > > > > > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase > is > > > quite > > > > > > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no > > longer > > > > > > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting > > practice > > > out > > > > > > there. > > > > > > > > > > > > Already in the application server market and made your choice with > a > > > > > > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't > > expect > > > > > Sybase > > > > > > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic > infrastructure > > > just > > > > > > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > <hopethishelps /> > > > > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] > > > > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com > > > > > > > > > > > > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message > > > > > > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... > > > > > > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for > > > whom > > > > > EAS > > > > > > is > > > > > > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible > to > > > make > > > > > our > > > > > > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware > > to > > > run > > > > > it > > > > > > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or > > maybe > > > I > > > > > > should > > > > > > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is > > > excruciating. > > > > > > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as > > open > > > to > > > > > > third > > > > > > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > adam simmonds wrote in message > > > <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>... > > > > > > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are > > > aware > > > > > > that > > > > > > > PB is > > > > > > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the > > > large > > > > > > user > > > > > > > base > > > > > > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer > to > > > jaguar > > > > > > and > > > > > > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards > java > > > style. > > > > > > IMO > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web > > > > > development > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this > > work > > > as > > > > > a > > > > > > > waste > > > > > > > >of time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the > > > more > > > > > > > people's ( > > > > > > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the > > product. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >A. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hello! > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the > > > > > > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase > > > > > > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be > > > > > > > >> discontinued after version 8.0. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and > > > > > > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. > > > > > > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) > > > > > > > >> I came across the following article: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated > that > > > > > > > PowerBuilder > > > > > > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote > > > Sybase, > > > > > "We > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full > > > intentions > > > > > to > > > > > > > >> release versions after v 8.0" > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in > > the > > > 21st > > > > > > > >> Century". > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf > > > > > > > >> http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) > > > > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase > rumors > > > > > > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's > anything > > > > > > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for > > > > > > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Thanks, > > > > > > > >> O.J. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Bill Green[TeamSybase] > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards > > > > http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Good Links to know, good places to go: > > > > > > > > Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often > > > > Find things like: > > > > -- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available > > > > -- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available > > > > -- Components, White papers, articles and more > > > > -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak) > > > > -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components) > > > > > > > > PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com > > > > > > > > Power3 - Custom Training - http://www.power3.com > > > > Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I would recommend Mike Barlotta's book "Jaguar Development with PB 7" and the follow up written with Jason Weiss "Taming Jaguar" available at manning.com. I don't know if that would help you through your Win 2K issues though. "DPC" <derrick@lotuschan.com> wrote in message news:ci2bMNZ6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com... > Daniel, > > I do not know about now, but some 7-10 years back, IBM and HP did co-join > our proposals to companies. I may be a one man shop but at times I have > been involved in the bid for big projects forming a team of developers from > other companies and independant consultants. Yes, I come from the mainframe > world and IBM and HP at that time did provide expertise in the proposals and > even free software and classes only to be paid on gaining the contract. > Even when IBM was introducing the Visual Age, I was also given a free > package and had to pay for it only if I developed applications and sold > them. I had at that time gone with PB 3 as the market was hot for > powerbuilder and had left the IBM world. > > Do you think Sybase ameable to such proposals for joint ventures in > developing a HRMS, etc. applications which would help their base of > installed EAS? How tight are you with them. It is also good for Sybase to > help in the development of major software so that they can ensure that they > the installed base is up to specifications. What is worse than a broad > installed based is one that has a lot of badly/failed installed bases. In > quite a few of my projects I have had to recode and re-structure > applications that were supposedly written by CPBs, therefore I have a dim > view of the certification. What comes out of these failed/poorly executed > installed bases is a lack of confidence in the software and in big companies > the "black sheep" of an application that has to be lived with as they had > spent large sums of money for them. > > How do you think peoplesoft got off the ground so fast. To build its base > of expertise, free training for the price of working on projects for them > for $45/hr for 6mths-1year was the deal when they were ramping up. At that > time due to my shortsightedness I stayed with ISI products (the founder > started peoplesoft) as I was raking in the money then as a consultant. I do > not mind training myself and have done so with powebuilder, little bit of > java, front page etc. But I have had little success with EAS especially as > I did not at that time have an NT4 machine having it upgraded to W2K server > due to the jobs I was getting requiring W2K server. I even bought the EAS > library in hardcopy and have been struggling to get EAS to run on my W2K > server and practically every upgrade I had run I had encountered problems > requiring me to re-install from EAS 3.0 --- another problem that I have > encountered. Is there some mind block for me or am I just dumb. I have > picked up a book on NT 4.0 and later W2K server and was able to install DNS, > DHCP, IIS, exchange server behind a proxy etc. without going to any class. > I have been alble to learn and run powerbuilder, vb, java etc all on my own. > While on the mainframe I have set up DB2. CICS regions, coded dynamic sql > applications in CSP, etc. All of which I had learned on my own mainly by > reading the manuals and looking at examples. But EAS is biting me in the > but/bum. I am really frustrated with EAS. > > Is there a GOOD starter book that you could recommend me for EAS as all the > manuals were a waste of my money. > > > > "Daniel Coppersmith" <daniel@N.0.S.P.A.M_infrontsoftware.com> wrote in > message news:LHjwlpV6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... > > I got a developer's license of EA Server for free a while back - it was a > > special deal. With that and a PB enterprise license I was able to teach > > myself EAS. With that knowledge I was able to land an EAS contract job. > > Took some effort on my part, but didn't cost me a penny to learn it (well, > I > > bought Mike Barlotta's book which was worth it). Check mysybase.com's > > e-shop to see if it's still offered for free as a trial. > > > > I have empathy for you with the frustration you feel - I've been there. > But > > being a "small fry" means you have to work a bit harder to keep up in > > learning the technology. > > > > You mention joint development projects that IBM and HP offer. Is it true > > that IBM teams up with 1 man shops, provides free training and lead > > generation? You seem to be asking an awful lot of any company if that's > > what you're expecting. > > > > > > "DPC" <derrick@lotuschan.com> wrote in message > > news:zVynpSV6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com... > > > Bill, > > > > > > I am not saying that the desktop or pro is a truly viable product as > most > > > developers use Powerbuilder Enterprise. As for the 3K, it may be a drop > > in > > > a bucket for companies, but for the individual developer/consultant this > > is > > > not a small thing especially as we want to leverage our experiences and > > > monetary investments (this does not include the cost and time for > > training > > > etc.). > > > > > > Yes I agree that java due to its popularity and versatility has caused > > > power builder to loose its foothold. However I also know of many > > companies > > > that have gone back to VB. And it would be foolish to expect java to be > > the > > > end all. > > > > > > What is happening is the fact that many of us who had signed on to > > > Powerbuilder are finding that the market out there is getting smaller > for > > > us. Jobs are getting scarce for both contract and permanent jobs. I > > guess > > > from all the postings, the small fries like us are trying to know > whether > > we > > > should say Sayonara to PB and bid it adieu. It is hardly feeding us and > > if > > > Sybase is not concerned about this then it would be catering to only the > > big > > > businesses that buys into Sybases's suite of products and it would be > > > loosing not only an install base but a resource base also. > > > > > > How many big businesses are there that want to install portals? How > many > > of > > > us will be able to gain contracts and jobs for these projects. What > many > > of > > > us small fries are concerned about, is our survival. Our concern is > that > > > the interoperability with other products could be made possible and > > > simplified which would help bolster the sales of powerbuilder. From my > > > experience there is a big market out there for intranet software > > development > > > but it is hard to sell to companies that powerbuilder is the way to go > due > > > to the lukewarm attitude of Sybase and the fact that it is a shrinking > > > market. > > > > > > When you talk about n-tier and middle-tier, what do you mean by > > middle-tier. > > > Am I not correct to say that ONLY if a company buys into Jaguar, would > the > > > "possibility" of leveraging on our PB knowledge be a factor. Whether > > n-tier > > > or client server to me they are the same market for a PB developer,as > you > > > stated we are looking at Enterprise models. > > > > > > On your n-tier growth, I have not seen much of it in Southern > California. > > > If I am wrong, I would like to know how many companies here are using > the > > > full Sybase n-tier development with PB. How many have jobs open? > Having > > > paid a few K for the EAS. Should I pay 4-5K for the class/passport on > the > > > EAS? What is a likelihood of getting a job in Southern California using > > > EAS? I have been trying to use EAS on W2K and have not been successful > > for > > > the last 8 months. I stopped until 3.6.1 was release as it was stated > > that > > > it would be 2000 compliant but when I installed C5 it gave me other > > > problems. If I could get this off the ground maybe I could help sell > the > > > idea of using "EAS" to one of the former companies I used to contract > > with. > > > > > > Shouldn't Sybase have more partnerships with developers and go into > joint > > > development to help build the market. If we had some major systems like > a > > > HRMS system that is widely used, built with EAS it would sure help the > > > market and our confidence in Sybase. I think it is a worthwhile for > > Sybase > > > to look into these matters. I know the they have the financial system > > what > > > about building other quality systems that could vie against companies > like > > > Peoplesoft, Oracles HR etc. We small fries would like to survive and > with > > > Sybase if possible; however for all you and everyone else have said it > is > > > not very comforting and small fries like me are still in a quandary as > to > > > cut our losses at this point or to forge ahead with Sybase. Is Sybase > > > persuing more joint development of projects so that projects will be > > > developed using EAS, just like what is done by companies such as IBM, > HP, > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message > > > news:3B151A10.DDE76E0B@teamsybase.com... > > > > PowerBuilder has *always* been targeted as an Enterprise Development > > Tool > > > and > > > > probably always will. There was a token offering of PB Desktop, and PB > > > > Professional has been mildly successful, but the bread-and-butter has > > > always > > > > been the enterprise. Microsoft has always targeted the individual and > > when > > > they > > > > realized that future profits will not come from individuals buying > > > products at > > > > $149 per, they shifted their focus to the enterprise also. Maybe you > > > havn't > > > > noticed, but VB.Net is not targeting the lower end developer. > According > > to > > > > analysts, VB developers are leaving the Microsoft product set in > droves. > > > (I > > > > forget the link to that article, or I'd include it here) because the > > leap > > > from > > > > VB to VB.Net no longer targets the individual. > > > > > > > > And it would really be a leap to say that IBM targets the individuals > > with > > > > products like Visual Age. I think everyone is missing the point that > > tools > > > are > > > > no longer anyone's focus, but have been relegated to supporting roles. > > If > > > > Portals are the "next big thing", and Sybase e-Portal becomes the > player > > > they > > > > believe it will, and ePortal is based on EAServer, what skills do you > > > currently > > > > own that you can use to contribute to your company/clients future > growth > > > with > > > > their portal? PowerBuilder, that's what. If you work at a client that > is > > > > developing wireless technology, and they choose to use the iAnywhere > > > Wireless > > > > Server, what skills do you have today that could be useful in that > > market? > > > > PowerBuilder. If your company decides that they need to connect their > > > employees > > > > to their CRM and HR systems (as quite a few major companies are > already > > > doing), > > > > and they need to determine the software infrastructure to connect > their > > > > employees to their SAP/Peoplesoft/other enterprise systems, do you > think > > > they > > > > might opt to choose a product like NEON who dominates that > marketspace? > > > And Neon > > > > Adapters will connect to those services from EAServer or EAServer > > > verticals. You > > > > know what product set might come in useful? PowerBuilder. > > > > > > > > Sure, if you know Java, you have the same advantage, but the point is > > that > > > > future directions do not obsolete your skillset all the time. And if > > this > > > were > > > > not the right direction, then why would Microsoft and Oracle and IBM > be > > > building > > > > their own products to compete in the same space? (See Microsoft Portal > > in > > > the > > > > latest MSDN shipment). > > > > > > > > PowerBuilder's loss in marketshare is attributable to three things. > > Java, > > > a bad > > > > product release (7.0 was *not* the best thing that Sybase ever > shipped), > > > and a > > > > slow realization of the changing market. Then again, you'll see the > same > > > thing > > > > if you look at any productset out there like VB, Delphi, and even > stuff > > > like > > > > C++. Time change, people shift. If you think that it won't happen > again, > > > even > > > > with something like Java, then you're fooling yourself. The question > is > > > whether > > > > you recognize it early enough and are willing to adapt (hence C++ will > > > never go > > > > away, but will continue to see a shrinking market, whereas SmallTalk > is > > > > virtually off the map). I think Sybase realized it pretty late in the > > > game, but > > > > my opinion is that they realized it in time, so you may see some > > shrinkage > > > in > > > > the world we're used to (client-server), but you will also see some > > growth > > > in > > > > other areas (n-tier, middle-tier based solutions). > > > > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > DPC wrote: > > > > > > > > > Roy, > > > > > > > > > > Are you a Sybase employee? Is this really the direction Sybase is > > going > > > in? > > > > > > > > > > If I do understand you correctly Sybase is currently or has been > > > > > concentrating on the E-Portal arena and Powerbuilder is only along > for > > > the > > > > > ride. Roy just from a general point of view, how many e-portal > > programs > > > > > will be developed and how many smaller based applications will be > > > developed > > > > > in the future? What is the target market and I guess you feel that > > > Sybase > > > > > can go head long against > > > > > > > > > > I do not think that it is fair for you to make the comment that: > > > "Already > > > > > in the application server market and made your choice with a > competing > > > app > > > > > server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to > > invest > > > > > millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just > because > > > you > > > > > spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license." For individual developers, > > this > > > is > > > > > not a small sum. The EA-server license is only for developement > also > > > and > > > > > more has to be spent for the deployement. Sure we small time > > developers > > > and > > > > > users of PB are worried about our livelihood. Even for permanent > > > employees > > > > > if the PB goes then what of us? > > > > > > > > > > Microsoft in its evolution of VB has never left sight of the people > > who > > > made > > > > > VB what it is today. One of the reasons for the success of VB is > the > > > slow > > > > > but steady evolution that did not turn its back on the small > > developers. > > > > > This helped them as it also built a big base of applications and > > > resources > > > > > (small time developers) out there that could easily be integrated > into > > > their > > > > > enterprise applications without retraining and with little > > engineering. > > > > > > > > > > In comparison if PB is positioned such that it is only for the > bigwigs > > > and > > > > > enterprise systems it will see a demise in the usage at the lower > > level > > > due > > > > > to the price entry problem. Furthermore the evolution path taken by > > > Sybase > > > > > for powerbuilder is seeing less usage of this tool in the market > thus > > > the > > > > > expertise base is going to shrink. Who do you think smaller and mid > > > sized > > > > > companies growing would select if when upsizing if they have most of > > > thier > > > > > applications written in VB. > > > > > > > > > > If this is the official marketing strategy of Sybase, I think it > > really > > > > > requires a rethink. Who do you think we small farts would recommend > > if > > > we > > > > > give up PB and go with IBM's visual age of Microsoft's VB? > > > > > > > > > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> > > wrote > > > in > > > > > message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com... > > > > > > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to > > grow > > > > > their > > > > > > user base? > > > > > > > > > > > > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and > goals, > > > not > > > > > just > > > > > > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it > > was > > > 4-5 > > > > > > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a > > > different > > > > > > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as > > its > > > > > > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with > iAnywhere > > > > > > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial > > sector > > > with > > > > > > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here? > > > > > > > > > > > > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for > EAServer. > > > It > > > > > > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase > is > > > quite > > > > > > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no > > longer > > > > > > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting > > practice > > > out > > > > > > there. > > > > > > > > > > > > Already in the application server market and made your choice with > a > > > > > > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't > > expect > > > > > Sybase > > > > > > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic > infrastructure > > > just > > > > > > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > <hopethishelps /> > > > > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] > > > > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com > > > > > > > > > > > > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message > > > > > > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... > > > > > > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for > > > whom > > > > > EAS > > > > > > is > > > > > > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible > to > > > make > > > > > our > > > > > > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware > > to > > > run > > > > > it > > > > > > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or > > maybe > > > I > > > > > > should > > > > > > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is > > > excruciating. > > > > > > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as > > open > > > to > > > > > > third > > > > > > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > adam simmonds wrote in message > > > <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>... > > > > > > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are > > > aware > > > > > > that > > > > > > > PB is > > > > > > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the > > > large > > > > > > user > > > > > > > base > > > > > > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer > to > > > jaguar > > > > > > and > > > > > > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards > java > > > style. > > > > > > IMO > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web > > > > > development > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this > > work > > > as > > > > > a > > > > > > > waste > > > > > > > >of time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the > > > more > > > > > > > people's ( > > > > > > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the > > product. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >A. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hello! > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the > > > > > > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase > > > > > > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be > > > > > > > >> discontinued after version 8.0. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and > > > > > > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. > > > > > > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) > > > > > > > >> I came across the following article: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated > that > > > > > > > PowerBuilder > > > > > > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote > > > Sybase, > > > > > "We > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full > > > intentions > > > > > to > > > > > > > >> release versions after v 8.0" > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in > > the > > > 21st > > > > > > > >> Century". > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf > > > > > > > >> http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) > > > > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase > rumors > > > > > > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's > anything > > > > > > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for > > > > > > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Thanks, > > > > > > > >> O.J. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Bill Green[TeamSybase] > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards > > > > http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Good Links to know, good places to go: > > > > > > > > Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often > > > > Find things like: > > > > -- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available > > > > -- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available > > > > -- Components, White papers, articles and more > > > > -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak) > > > > -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components) > > > > > > > > PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com > > > > > > > > Power3 - Custom Training - http://www.power3.com > > > > Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Industry Analysts, (the ones that the bigger companies tend to follow) seem to be indicating that VB is losing it's developer following in droves. I'm not in that market anymore, so I can only base my opinions on what I read and what I hear. The job market is getting smaller. That's no secret. A part of that is becuase the Java market is growing. A part of that is also because that marketspace is mature. That's also part of the natural evolution. It reaches a certain size (in shrinking) which becomes the minimal sustainable market and then it either remains there (if the product is not that good or not being marketed correctly), or it begins to grow again. That's part of the cycle. By virtue of the number of newcomers to these forums, I'm judging that PB is still selling. I also see familiar names moving from the PB forums to the EAServer and PowerJ forums, so I see that the experienced PB developers are expanding their horizons. Portals are big business. As Roy already said, just check out the GIGA and Gartner predictions on that market. Portals encompass the whole web-presence and provide both external and internal views to the business. eCommerce Servers were popular for a while but companies are realizing that they need much more than that and the ePortal business is growing. You're correct in saying that you can leverage your PB skills only if the target app-server is Jaguar (although I guess you could count the companies developing PB components to deploy to MTS or other COM based servers). I've also found that if you learn a little bit about Java, you actually make your PowerBuilder skills more marketable. I've had no end of queries about utilizing PowerBuilder and Java Servlets in the same app-server, something EAServer does pretty well. Sybase also has no problem partnering with small companies. My own company is a 2-man shop. We occasionally hire sub-contractors on projects, but for the most part, it's just the two of us. Sybase partners with us without worrying about our size. You really should talk to first your sales rep, but the purpose is to talk to the Sybase Alliance group to find out how you can work together. Sybase is not going out there to actively seek partnerships (something I think they should do, but then again, I don't own the company) with small consulting shops, but I've not known them to turn anyone away. They know how important partners are, and in fact I happen to know that they are deliberately trying to shift more sales/services type of work out to partners. It not only generates interest and revenue, but reduces cost as well. If you ever have an opportunity for a project and need additional help, you can contact Sybase Professional Services. If they have people available, they will help you get it done. I don't know about the Southern Cal market. I do not work that market (excet for some isolated projects), but what I would do is talk to Sybase and see how you can work together for your mutual benefit. Sybase wants to grow, believe me, and they will do almost anything to promote that growth. But don't take my word for it. Call them and find out for yourself. It may cost you a day to talk to them, but you will then have a better feel for how things may work out for you in your area. regards, Bill Green DPC wrote: > Bill, > > I am not saying that the desktop or pro is a truly viable product as most > developers use Powerbuilder Enterprise. As for the 3K, it may be a drop in > a bucket for companies, but for the individual developer/consultant this is > not a small thing especially as we want to leverage our experiences and > monetary investments (this does not include the cost and time for training > etc.). > > Yes I agree that java due to its popularity and versatility has caused > power builder to loose its foothold. However I also know of many companies > that have gone back to VB. And it would be foolish to expect java to be the > end all. > > What is happening is the fact that many of us who had signed on to > Powerbuilder are finding that the market out there is getting smaller for > us. Jobs are getting scarce for both contract and permanent jobs. I guess > from all the postings, the small fries like us are trying to know whether we > should say Sayonara to PB and bid it adieu. It is hardly feeding us and if > Sybase is not concerned about this then it would be catering to only the big > businesses that buys into Sybases's suite of products and it would be > loosing not only an install base but a resource base also. > > How many big businesses are there that want to install portals? How many of > us will be able to gain contracts and jobs for these projects. What many of > us small fries are concerned about, is our survival. Our concern is that > the interoperability with other products could be made possible and > simplified which would help bolster the sales of powerbuilder. From my > experience there is a big market out there for intranet software development > but it is hard to sell to companies that powerbuilder is the way to go due > to the lukewarm attitude of Sybase and the fact that it is a shrinking > market. > > When you talk about n-tier and middle-tier, what do you mean by middle-tier. > Am I not correct to say that ONLY if a company buys into Jaguar, would the > "possibility" of leveraging on our PB knowledge be a factor. Whether n-tier > or client server to me they are the same market for a PB developer,as you > stated we are looking at Enterprise models. > > On your n-tier growth, I have not seen much of it in Southern California. > If I am wrong, I would like to know how many companies here are using the > full Sybase n-tier development with PB. How many have jobs open? Having > paid a few K for the EAS. Should I pay 4-5K for the class/passport on the > EAS? What is a likelihood of getting a job in Southern California using > EAS? I have been trying to use EAS on W2K and have not been successful for > the last 8 months. I stopped until 3.6.1 was release as it was stated that > it would be 2000 compliant but when I installed C5 it gave me other > problems. If I could get this off the ground maybe I could help sell the > idea of using "EAS" to one of the former companies I used to contract with. > > Shouldn't Sybase have more partnerships with developers and go into joint > development to help build the market. If we had some major systems like a > HRMS system that is widely used, built with EAS it would sure help the > market and our confidence in Sybase. I think it is a worthwhile for Sybase > to look into these matters. I know the they have the financial system what > about building other quality systems that could vie against companies like > Peoplesoft, Oracles HR etc. We small fries would like to survive and with > Sybase if possible; however for all you and everyone else have said it is > not very comforting and small fries like me are still in a quandary as to > cut our losses at this point or to forge ahead with Sybase. Is Sybase > persuing more joint development of projects so that projects will be > developed using EAS, just like what is done by companies such as IBM, HP, > etc. > > "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message > news:3B151A10.DDE76E0B@teamsybase.com... > > PowerBuilder has *always* been targeted as an Enterprise Development Tool > and > > probably always will. There was a token offering of PB Desktop, and PB > > Professional has been mildly successful, but the bread-and-butter has > always > > been the enterprise. Microsoft has always targeted the individual and when > they > > realized that future profits will not come from individuals buying > products at > > $149 per, they shifted their focus to the enterprise also. Maybe you > havn't > > noticed, but VB.Net is not targeting the lower end developer. According to > > analysts, VB developers are leaving the Microsoft product set in droves. > (I > > forget the link to that article, or I'd include it here) because the leap > from > > VB to VB.Net no longer targets the individual. > > > > And it would really be a leap to say that IBM targets the individuals with > > products like Visual Age. I think everyone is missing the point that tools > are > > no longer anyone's focus, but have been relegated to supporting roles. If > > Portals are the "next big thing", and Sybase e-Portal becomes the player > they > > believe it will, and ePortal is based on EAServer, what skills do you > currently > > own that you can use to contribute to your company/clients future growth > with > > their portal? PowerBuilder, that's what. If you work at a client that is > > developing wireless technology, and they choose to use the iAnywhere > Wireless > > Server, what skills do you have today that could be useful in that market? > > PowerBuilder. If your company decides that they need to connect their > employees > > to their CRM and HR systems (as quite a few major companies are already > doing), > > and they need to determine the software infrastructure to connect their > > employees to their SAP/Peoplesoft/other enterprise systems, do you think > they > > might opt to choose a product like NEON who dominates that marketspace? > And Neon > > Adapters will connect to those services from EAServer or EAServer > verticals. You > > know what product set might come in useful? PowerBuilder. > > > > Sure, if you know Java, you have the same advantage, but the point is that > > future directions do not obsolete your skillset all the time. And if this > were > > not the right direction, then why would Microsoft and Oracle and IBM be > building > > their own products to compete in the same space? (See Microsoft Portal in > the > > latest MSDN shipment). > > > > PowerBuilder's loss in marketshare is attributable to three things. Java, > a bad > > product release (7.0 was *not* the best thing that Sybase ever shipped), > and a > > slow realization of the changing market. Then again, you'll see the same > thing > > if you look at any productset out there like VB, Delphi, and even stuff > like > > C++. Time change, people shift. If you think that it won't happen again, > even > > with something like Java, then you're fooling yourself. The question is > whether > > you recognize it early enough and are willing to adapt (hence C++ will > never go > > away, but will continue to see a shrinking market, whereas SmallTalk is > > virtually off the map). I think Sybase realized it pretty late in the > game, but > > my opinion is that they realized it in time, so you may see some shrinkage > in > > the world we're used to (client-server), but you will also see some growth > in > > other areas (n-tier, middle-tier based solutions). > > > > > > regards, > > Bill > > > > > > DPC wrote: > > > > > Roy, > > > > > > Are you a Sybase employee? Is this really the direction Sybase is going > in? > > > > > > If I do understand you correctly Sybase is currently or has been > > > concentrating on the E-Portal arena and Powerbuilder is only along for > the > > > ride. Roy just from a general point of view, how many e-portal programs > > > will be developed and how many smaller based applications will be > developed > > > in the future? What is the target market and I guess you feel that > Sybase > > > can go head long against > > > > > > I do not think that it is fair for you to make the comment that: > "Already > > > in the application server market and made your choice with a competing > app > > > server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to invest > > > millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just because > you > > > spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license." For individual developers, this > is > > > not a small sum. The EA-server license is only for developement also > and > > > more has to be spent for the deployement. Sure we small time developers > and > > > users of PB are worried about our livelihood. Even for permanent > employees > > > if the PB goes then what of us? > > > > > > Microsoft in its evolution of VB has never left sight of the people who > made > > > VB what it is today. One of the reasons for the success of VB is the > slow > > > but steady evolution that did not turn its back on the small developers. > > > This helped them as it also built a big base of applications and > resources > > > (small time developers) out there that could easily be integrated into > their > > > enterprise applications without retraining and with little engineering. > > > > > > In comparison if PB is positioned such that it is only for the bigwigs > and > > > enterprise systems it will see a demise in the usage at the lower level > due > > > to the price entry problem. Furthermore the evolution path taken by > Sybase > > > for powerbuilder is seeing less usage of this tool in the market thus > the > > > expertise base is going to shrink. Who do you think smaller and mid > sized > > > companies growing would select if when upsizing if they have most of > thier > > > applications written in VB. > > > > > > If this is the official marketing strategy of Sybase, I think it really > > > requires a rethink. Who do you think we small farts would recommend if > we > > > give up PB and go with IBM's visual age of Microsoft's VB? > > > > > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote > in > > > message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com... > > > > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow > > > their > > > > user base? > > > > > > > > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, > not > > > just > > > > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was > 4-5 > > > > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a > different > > > > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its > > > > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere > > > > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector > with > > > > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here? > > > > > > > > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. > It > > > > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is > quite > > > > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer > > > > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice > out > > > > there. > > > > > > > > Already in the application server market and made your choice with a > > > > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect > > > Sybase > > > > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure > just > > > > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > <hopethishelps /> > > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] > > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com > > > > > > > > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message > > > > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... > > > > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for > whom > > > EAS > > > > is > > > > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to > make > > > our > > > > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to > run > > > it > > > > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe > I > > > > should > > > > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is > excruciating. > > > > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open > to > > > > third > > > > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers. > > > > > > > > > > adam simmonds wrote in message > <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>... > > > > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out??? > > > > > > > > > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are > aware > > > > that > > > > > PB is > > > > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the > large > > > > user > > > > > base > > > > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar. > > > > > > > > > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to > jaguar > > > > and > > > > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java > style. > > > > IMO > > > > > they > > > > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web > > > development > > > > > and > > > > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work > as > > > a > > > > > waste > > > > > >of time. > > > > > > > > > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the > more > > > > > people's ( > > > > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product. > > > > > > > > > > > >A. > > > > > > > > > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hello! > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the > > > > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase > > > > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be > > > > > >> discontinued after version 8.0. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and > > > > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. > > > > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) > > > > > >> > > > > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) > > > > > >> I came across the following article: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > > > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that > > > > > PowerBuilder > > > > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote > Sybase, > > > "We > > > > > are > > > > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full > intentions > > > to > > > > > >> release versions after v 8.0" > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the > 21st > > > > > >> Century". > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf > > > > > >> http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) > > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors > > > > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything > > > > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for > > > > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Thanks, > > > > > >> O.J. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Bill Green[TeamSybase] > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards > > http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/ > > > > > > Good Links to know, good places to go: > > > > Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often > > Find things like: > > -- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available > > -- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available > > -- Components, White papers, articles and more > > -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak) > > -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components) > > > > PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com > > > > Power3 - Custom Training - http://www.power3.com > > Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -- Bill Green[TeamSybase] ----------------------------------------------------------- Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/ Good Links to know, good places to go: Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often Find things like: -- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available -- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available -- Components, White papers, articles and more -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak) -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components) PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com Power3 - Custom Training - http://www.power3.com Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com -----------------------------------------------------------
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Can't comment on things in the US but down here in Australia I reckon PowerBuilder is pretty much bleeding to death. All this hype about EAServer is not catching on here. In the past six months seen only one EAserver job in Sydney. PB programmers were once kings now in Melbourne (3.5 million people) there are about 12 PB positions in the offering (this might include same positions advertised by different agencies). IMO diversification is the key..and JAVA seems to be the way to go. Good Luck to All PowerBuilders. On Thu, 31 May 2001 09:41:50 -0400, in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.general Bill Green[TeamSybase] <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote: >Industry Analysts, (the ones that the bigger companies tend to follow) seem to >be indicating that VB is losing it's developer following in droves. I'm not in >that market anymore, so I can only base my opinions on what I read and what I >hear. > >The job market is getting smaller. That's no secret. A part of that is becuase >the Java market is growing. A part of that is also because that marketspace is >mature. That's also part of the natural evolution. It reaches a certain size (in >shrinking) which becomes the minimal sustainable market and then it either >remains there (if the product is not that good or not being marketed correctly), >or it begins to grow again. That's part of the cycle. By virtue of the number of >newcomers to these forums, I'm judging that PB is still selling. I also see >familiar names moving from the PB forums to the EAServer and PowerJ forums, so I >see that the experienced PB developers are expanding their horizons. > >Portals are big business. As Roy already said, just check out the GIGA and >Gartner predictions on that market. Portals encompass the whole web-presence and >provide both external and internal views to the business. eCommerce Servers were >popular for a while but companies are realizing that they need much more than >that and the ePortal business is growing. > >You're correct in saying that you can leverage your PB skills only if the target >app-server is Jaguar (although I guess you could count the companies developing >PB components to deploy to MTS or other COM based servers). I've also found that >if you learn a little bit about Java, you actually make your PowerBuilder skills >more marketable. I've had no end of queries about utilizing PowerBuilder and >Java Servlets in the same app-server, something EAServer does pretty well. > >Sybase also has no problem partnering with small companies. My own company is a >2-man shop. We occasionally hire sub-contractors on projects, but for the most >part, it's just the two of us. Sybase partners with us without worrying about >our size. You really should talk to first your sales rep, but the purpose is to >talk to the Sybase Alliance group to find out how you can work together. Sybase >is not going out there to actively seek partnerships (something I think they >should do, but then again, I don't own the company) with small consulting shops, >but I've not known them to turn anyone away. They know how important partners >are, and in fact I happen to know that they are deliberately trying to shift >more sales/services type of work out to partners. It not only generates interest >and revenue, but reduces cost as well. If you ever have an opportunity for a >project and need additional help, you can contact Sybase Professional Services. >If they have people available, they will help you get it done. > > >I don't know about the Southern Cal market. I do not work that market (excet for >some isolated projects), but what I would do is talk to Sybase and see how you >can work together for your mutual benefit. Sybase wants to grow, believe me, and >they will do almost anything to promote that growth. But don't take my word for >it. Call them and find out for yourself. It may cost you a day to talk to them, >but you will then have a better feel for how things may work out for you in your >area. > > >regards, >Bill Green > > >DPC wrote: > >> Bill, >> >> I am not saying that the desktop or pro is a truly viable product as most >> developers use Powerbuilder Enterprise. As for the 3K, it may be a drop in >> a bucket for companies, but for the individual developer/consultant this is >> not a small thing especially as we want to leverage our experiences and >> monetary investments (this does not include the cost and time for training >> etc.). >> >> Yes I agree that java due to its popularity and versatility has caused >> power builder to loose its foothold. However I also know of many companies >> that have gone back to VB. And it would be foolish to expect java to be the >> end all. >> >> What is happening is the fact that many of us who had signed on to >> Powerbuilder are finding that the market out there is getting smaller for >> us. Jobs are getting scarce for both contract and permanent jobs. I guess >> from all the postings, the small fries like us are trying to know whether we >> should say Sayonara to PB and bid it adieu. It is hardly feeding us and if >> Sybase is not concerned about this then it would be catering to only the big >> businesses that buys into Sybases's suite of products and it would be >> loosing not only an install base but a resource base also. >> >> How many big businesses are there that want to install portals? How many of >> us will be able to gain contracts and jobs for these projects. What many of >> us small fries are concerned about, is our survival. Our concern is that >> the interoperability with other products could be made possible and >> simplified which would help bolster the sales of powerbuilder. From my >> experience there is a big market out there for intranet software development >> but it is hard to sell to companies that powerbuilder is the way to go due >> to the lukewarm attitude of Sybase and the fact that it is a shrinking >> market. >> >> When you talk about n-tier and middle-tier, what do you mean by middle-tier. >> Am I not correct to say that ONLY if a company buys into Jaguar, would the >> "possibility" of leveraging on our PB knowledge be a factor. Whether n-tier >> or client server to me they are the same market for a PB developer,as you >> stated we are looking at Enterprise models. >> >> On your n-tier growth, I have not seen much of it in Southern California. >> If I am wrong, I would like to know how many companies here are using the >> full Sybase n-tier development with PB. How many have jobs open? Having >> paid a few K for the EAS. Should I pay 4-5K for the class/passport on the >> EAS? What is a likelihood of getting a job in Southern California using >> EAS? I have been trying to use EAS on W2K and have not been successful for >> the last 8 months. I stopped until 3.6.1 was release as it was stated that >> it would be 2000 compliant but when I installed C5 it gave me other >> problems. If I could get this off the ground maybe I could help sell the >> idea of using "EAS" to one of the former companies I used to contract with. >> >> Shouldn't Sybase have more partnerships with developers and go into joint >> development to help build the market. If we had some major systems like a >> HRMS system that is widely used, built with EAS it would sure help the >> market and our confidence in Sybase. I think it is a worthwhile for Sybase >> to look into these matters. I know the they have the financial system what >> about building other quality systems that could vie against companies like >> Peoplesoft, Oracles HR etc. We small fries would like to survive and with >> Sybase if possible; however for all you and everyone else have said it is >> not very comforting and small fries like me are still in a quandary as to >> cut our losses at this point or to forge ahead with Sybase. Is Sybase >> persuing more joint development of projects so that projects will be >> developed using EAS, just like what is done by companies such as IBM, HP, >> etc. >> >> "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message >> news:3B151A10.DDE76E0B@teamsybase.com... >> > PowerBuilder has *always* been targeted as an Enterprise Development Tool >> and >> > probably always will. There was a token offering of PB Desktop, and PB >> > Professional has been mildly successful, but the bread-and-butter has >> always >> > been the enterprise. Microsoft has always targeted the individual and when >> they >> > realized that future profits will not come from individuals buying >> products at >> > $149 per, they shifted their focus to the enterprise also. Maybe you >> havn't >> > noticed, but VB.Net is not targeting the lower end developer. According to >> > analysts, VB developers are leaving the Microsoft product set in droves. >> (I >> > forget the link to that article, or I'd include it here) because the leap >> from >> > VB to VB.Net no longer targets the individual. >> > >> > And it would really be a leap to say that IBM targets the individuals with >> > products like Visual Age. I think everyone is missing the point that tools >> are >> > no longer anyone's focus, but have been relegated to supporting roles. If >> > Portals are the "next big thing", and Sybase e-Portal becomes the player >> they >> > believe it will, and ePortal is based on EAServer, what skills do you >> currently >> > own that you can use to contribute to your company/clients future growth >> with >> > their portal? PowerBuilder, that's what. If you work at a client that is >> > developing wireless technology, and they choose to use the iAnywhere >> Wireless >> > Server, what skills do you have today that could be useful in that market? >> > PowerBuilder. If your company decides that they need to connect their >> employees >> > to their CRM and HR systems (as quite a few major companies are already >> doing), >> > and they need to determine the software infrastructure to connect their >> > employees to their SAP/Peoplesoft/other enterprise systems, do you think >> they >> > might opt to choose a product like NEON who dominates that marketspace? >> And Neon >> > Adapters will connect to those services from EAServer or EAServer >> verticals. You >> > know what product set might come in useful? PowerBuilder. >> > >> > Sure, if you know Java, you have the same advantage, but the point is that >> > future directions do not obsolete your skillset all the time. And if this >> were >> > not the right direction, then why would Microsoft and Oracle and IBM be >> building >> > their own products to compete in the same space? (See Microsoft Portal in >> the >> > latest MSDN shipment). >> > >> > PowerBuilder's loss in marketshare is attributable to three things. Java, >> a bad >> > product release (7.0 was *not* the best thing that Sybase ever shipped), >> and a >> > slow realization of the changing market. Then again, you'll see the same >> thing >> > if you look at any productset out there like VB, Delphi, and even stuff >> like >> > C++. Time change, people shift. If you think that it won't happen again, >> even >> > with something like Java, then you're fooling yourself. The question is >> whether >> > you recognize it early enough and are willing to adapt (hence C++ will >> never go >> > away, but will continue to see a shrinking market, whereas SmallTalk is >> > virtually off the map). I think Sybase realized it pretty late in the >> game, but >> > my opinion is that they realized it in time, so you may see some shrinkage >> in >> > the world we're used to (client-server), but you will also see some growth >> in >> > other areas (n-tier, middle-tier based solutions). >> > >> > >> > regards, >> > Bill >> > >> > >> > DPC wrote: >> > >> > > Roy, >> > > >> > > Are you a Sybase employee? Is this really the direction Sybase is going >> in? >> > > >> > > If I do understand you correctly Sybase is currently or has been >> > > concentrating on the E-Portal arena and Powerbuilder is only along for >> the >> > > ride. Roy just from a general point of view, how many e-portal programs >> > > will be developed and how many smaller based applications will be >> developed >> > > in the future? What is the target market and I guess you feel that >> Sybase >> > > can go head long against >> > > >> > > I do not think that it is fair for you to make the comment that: >> "Already >> > > in the application server market and made your choice with a competing >> app >> > > server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to invest >> > > millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just because >> you >> > > spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license." For individual developers, this >> is >> > > not a small sum. The EA-server license is only for developement also >> and >> > > more has to be spent for the deployement. Sure we small time developers >> and >> > > users of PB are worried about our livelihood. Even for permanent >> employees >> > > if the PB goes then what of us? >> > > >> > > Microsoft in its evolution of VB has never left sight of the people who >> made >> > > VB what it is today. One of the reasons for the success of VB is the >> slow >> > > but steady evolution that did not turn its back on the small developers. >> > > This helped them as it also built a big base of applications and >> resources >> > > (small time developers) out there that could easily be integrated into >> their >> > > enterprise applications without retraining and with little engineering. >> > > >> > > In comparison if PB is positioned such that it is only for the bigwigs >> and >> > > enterprise systems it will see a demise in the usage at the lower level >> due >> > > to the price entry problem. Furthermore the evolution path taken by >> Sybase >> > > for powerbuilder is seeing less usage of this tool in the market thus >> the >> > > expertise base is going to shrink. Who do you think smaller and mid >> sized >> > > companies growing would select if when upsizing if they have most of >> thier >> > > applications written in VB. >> > > >> > > If this is the official marketing strategy of Sybase, I think it really >> > > requires a rethink. Who do you think we small farts would recommend if >> we >> > > give up PB and go with IBM's visual age of Microsoft's VB? >> > > >> > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote >> in >> > > message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com... >> > > > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow >> > > their >> > > > user base? >> > > > >> > > > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, >> not >> > > just >> > > > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was >> 4-5 >> > > > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a >> different >> > > > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its >> > > > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere >> > > > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector >> with >> > > > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here? >> > > > >> > > > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. >> It >> > > > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is >> quite >> > > > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer >> > > > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice >> out >> > > > there. >> > > > >> > > > Already in the application server market and made your choice with a >> > > > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect >> > > Sybase >> > > > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure >> just >> > > > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license. >> > > > >> > > > -- >> > > > <hopethishelps /> >> > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] >> > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com >> > > > >> > > > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message >> > > > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com... >> > > > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for >> whom >> > > EAS >> > > > is >> > > > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to >> make >> > > our >> > > > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to >> run >> > > it >> > > > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe >> I >> > > > should >> > > > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is >> excruciating. >> > > > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open >> to >> > > > third >> > > > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers. >> > > > > >> > > > > adam simmonds wrote in message >> <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>... >> > > > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out??? >> > > > > > >> > > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are >> aware >> > > > that >> > > > > PB is >> > > > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the >> large >> > > > user >> > > > > base >> > > > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar. >> > > > > > >> > > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to >> jaguar >> > > > and >> > > > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java >> style. >> > > > IMO >> > > > > they >> > > > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web >> > > development >> > > > > and >> > > > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work >> as >> > > a >> > > > > waste >> > > > > >of time. >> > > > > > >> > > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the >> more >> > > > > people's ( >> > > > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product. >> > > > > > >> > > > > >A. >> > > > > > >> > > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> Hello! >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the >> > > > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase >> > > > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be >> > > > > >> discontinued after version 8.0. >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and >> > > > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search. >> > > > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.) >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com ) >> > > > > >> I came across the following article: >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ >> > > > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that >> > > > > PowerBuilder >> > > > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote >> Sybase, >> > > "We >> > > > > are >> > > > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full >> intentions >> > > to >> > > > > >> release versions after v 8.0" >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the >> 21st >> > > > > >> Century". >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf >> > > > > >> http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf ) >> > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------ >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors >> > > > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything >> > > > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for >> > > > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD. >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> Thanks, >> > > > > >> O.J. >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > >> > -- >> > Bill Green[TeamSybase] >> > ----------------------------------------------------------- >> > Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards >> > http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/ >> > >> > >> > Good Links to know, good places to go: >> > >> > Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often >> > Find things like: >> > -- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available >> > -- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available >> > -- Components, White papers, articles and more >> > -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak) >> > -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components) >> > >> > PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com >> > >> > Power3 - Custom Training - http://www.power3.com >> > Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com >> > ----------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > > >-- >Bill Green[TeamSybase] >----------------------------------------------------------- >Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards >http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/ > > >Good Links to know, good places to go: > >Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often >Find things like: >-- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available >-- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available >-- Components, White papers, articles and more >-- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak) >-- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components) > >PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com > >Power3 - Custom Training - http://www.power3.com >Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com >----------------------------------------------------------- > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
"Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message news:3B151569.37F83D76@teamsybase.com... > I think you may be going overboard just a little here Jacek. I don't think > anyone is going to contest that PB has lost it's stranglehold on the > client-server industry that it had a few years ago. However, Sybase's DBMS > slowly out the door??? Sybase has not lost marketshare in the DBMS world. It's Pls, Bill, you have to be kidding, According to the latest surver Oracle had 35%, DB2 had 30%, MS SQL had 20% or so and Sybase and Informix had 3% each (THREE percent). Sure, it's easy to increase your db licenses when you have only 3%, but it's still only a tiny fraction of the market. For heaven's sake, MySQL probably has as much (just no one counts it, as it is free). In our sector (entrprise retail software) Sybase is about as dead as can be for a DBMS platform. Not that that is a good thing (I like Sybase a lot more than Oracle for mid-sized customers, less headaches and more stable), but the fact is that there's only room for 2-3 top tier DBMS vendors in the market...and Sybase isn't one of them. As for PB, well...I love it as a language (minus the PB 7 fiasco), but it gives my career less and less choices every month. Not all of us are consultants that have a chance to learn a new tool every 6 months. I'd hate to be the "new COBOL" programmer 10 years from now (since that seems to be PB's ultimate destiny, a classic old language used for business app in the 1990s and not much more after that). Just learning Java now and I amazed by the depth of its class libraries (XML, network, sockets, XSLT, object database APIs, long-termp XML serialization of persistent objects, Log4J, integration into all major webservers, tons of free high-quality tools, tons of stable IDEs (NetBeans really rocks,especially for the price) the list goes on and on...). I wish PB would offer me the same depth or at least allowed to integrate with it (or even with the upcoming .Net libraries which will probably have as much depth). Sure, it sucks for GUI, but on the server-side it's pretty powerful and above all open (I'm looking at throwing together a C++ Qt-based front-end to integrate with Java server logic and communicate with each other via SOAP most likely). And I'm sorry to say, for the so-called classic two-tier development, PB's GUI is getting more and more dated. Users (and marketing) are expecting more and more fancy user interfaces (Outlook panels, docking windows, shaded buttons, oval buttons, etc.)...and PB at best has home-made hacks to simulate some of them (Roy's Outlook panel is great, but besides that all PB apps look like they did back in 1995). I saw some fancy touchscreen apps recently and there is just no way I could implement some of the GUIs in PB (alpha-transparency, blending, shading, oval objects, animations, you name it). Those are business apps too. Jacek
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Sybase was at 3% 3 years ago, so I reiterate, they have not lost marketshare. Similarly, in the financial world (Wall Street), Sybase still owns over 65% of the market. And like I said before, I know of two clients that are switching from Oracle to Sybase. 3 years ago, it was easy to find the other way around. I will not argue the fact that Java has more to offer. I believe that is true, just like C++ had much the same to offer 5 years ago. Do you think that 10 years from now Java will still be the top dog? Actually, my wish is that Sybase would simply drop PowerScript and use Java as the base instead. That would provide more growth than anything they're doing today with the product. regards, Bill Jacek Furmankiewicz wrote: > "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message > news:3B151569.37F83D76@teamsybase.com... > > I think you may be going overboard just a little here Jacek. I don't think > > anyone is going to contest that PB has lost it's stranglehold on the > > client-server industry that it had a few years ago. However, Sybase's DBMS > > slowly out the door??? Sybase has not lost marketshare in the DBMS world. > It's > > Pls, Bill, you have to be kidding, According to the latest surver Oracle had > 35%, DB2 had > 30%, MS SQL had 20% or so and Sybase and Informix had 3% each (THREE > percent). > > Sure, it's easy to increase your db licenses when you have only 3%, but it's > still only a tiny > fraction of the market. For heaven's sake, MySQL probably has as much (just > no one counts it, as it is free). > > In our sector (entrprise retail software) Sybase is about as dead as can be > for a DBMS platform. > Not that that is a good thing (I like Sybase a lot more than Oracle for > mid-sized customers, > less headaches and more stable), but the fact is that there's only room for > 2-3 top tier DBMS vendors > in the market...and Sybase isn't one of them. > > As for PB, well...I love it as a language (minus the PB 7 fiasco), but it > gives my career less and less choices every month. Not all of us are > consultants that have a chance to learn a new tool every 6 months. I'd hate > to be the > "new COBOL" programmer 10 years from now (since that seems to be PB's > ultimate destiny, a classic old language > used for business app in the 1990s and not much more after that). > > Just learning Java now and I amazed by the depth of its class libraries > (XML, network, sockets, XSLT, object database APIs, long-termp XML > serialization of persistent objects, Log4J, integration into all major > webservers, tons of free high-quality tools, tons of stable IDEs (NetBeans > really rocks,especially for the price) the list goes on and on...). I wish > PB would offer me the same depth or at least allowed to integrate with it > (or even with the upcoming .Net libraries which will probably have as much > depth). Sure, it sucks for GUI, but on the server-side it's pretty powerful > and above all open (I'm looking at throwing together a C++ Qt-based > front-end to integrate with Java server logic and communicate with each > other via SOAP most likely). > > And I'm sorry to say, for the so-called classic two-tier development, PB's > GUI is getting more and more dated. Users (and marketing) are expecting more > and more fancy user interfaces (Outlook panels, docking windows, shaded > buttons, oval buttons, etc.)...and PB at best has home-made hacks to > simulate some of them (Roy's Outlook panel is great, but besides that all PB > apps look like they did back in 1995). > > I saw some fancy touchscreen apps recently and there is just no way I could > implement some of the GUIs in PB (alpha-transparency, blending, shading, > oval objects, animations, you name it). Those are business apps too. > > Jacek -- Bill Green[TeamSybase] ----------------------------------------------------------- Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/ Good Links to know, good places to go: Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often Find things like: -- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available -- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available -- Components, White papers, articles and more -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak) -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components) PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com Power3 - Custom Training - http://www.power3.com Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com -----------------------------------------------------------
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
You might get your wish :-) I recall taking a survey done by Sybase for PB9 and half of the questions seemed to be related to either integrating with Java or generating bytecode from PB. Interesting, let's wait and see. Cheers, -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Jacek Furmankiewicz STS Systems - http://www.stssystems.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message > Actually, my wish is that Sybase would simply drop PowerScript and use Java as > the base instead. That would provide more growth than anything they're doing > today with the product.
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I was just wondering if anyone else noticed that now that Sybase has 'bought' NEON and reorganized their divisions, PowerBuilder is all by itself practically in the Enterprise Business Group, while PowerJ, PowerDesigner, EAServer, etc are grouped with the NEON products in the eBusiness group. Does this mean that PowerBuilder will eventually become Application Server neutral? Or, has it been put out to pasture to die a slow and lonely death? Jacek Furmankiewicz <jfurmankiewicz@stssystems.com> wrote in message news:5DPWalp6AHA.256@forums.sybase.com... > You might get your wish :-) > > I recall taking a survey done by Sybase for PB9 and half of the questions > seemed to be related to either integrating > with Java or generating bytecode from PB. Interesting, let's wait and see. > > Cheers, > -- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jacek Furmankiewicz > STS Systems - http://www.stssystems.com > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message > > Actually, my wish is that Sybase would simply drop PowerScript and use > Java as > > the base instead. That would provide more growth than anything they're > doing > > today with the product. > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |