Powerbuilder's Future

Hi. I am looking for some insight about Powerbuilder. First of all, does
anyone know what share of the market Powerbuilder has compared to it's
competitors. It seems to me it has lost a lot of ground the last few years
but I don't have any hard facts to back up that statement. The reason I am
afraid it has lost ground is because I see less job ads looking for PB
programmers and also I know of several companies in my locality that have
stopped developing with PB.

Secondly, how hard is it to take a client-server application developed in PB
and convert it to a web application? Suppose I have a client server app that
originally took an average PB programmer 3 months to complete. Nothing fancy
about the app just basic add, update, and delete windows. How long would it
take to convert a small application of that size to the web.

Thanks for any thoughts.

Robbie


0
Robbie
10/18/2000 8:33:15 PM
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Bill,

I agree with you.  PB is a niche player in the distributed applications
develoment pond, but I think we could be a bigger fish if Sybase didn't keep
EA Server such a secret.  I've been using PB for 7 years, of which the last
14 months have been with Jaguar (EA Server) as the application server in a
distributed mode.  I think EA Server is ahead of its time and maybe the only
complete application server solution (recently JEII certified), but nobody
seems to know.  I think the smart move for Robbie (and others) would be to
leverage their PB skills while developing distributed applications with EA
Server.  It is amazing what you can still do with PB code in EA Server, in
fact, I don't see anything I can't do.  At least in this scenario, you can
write your middle tier components in PowerBuilder, but begin to convert them
to Java as your skills or desires increase.  Then, over time, you will have
learned multi tiered application development as well as other development
tools.  JMO.

Rick

"Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message
news:39EE113C.42D5EF3A@teamsybase.com...
> You first want to clarify your request. Which market are you looking at?
> Client-Server? Web Development? Intranet? Internet? I think that the
perception
> is that PowerBuilder has lost market share when in fact, I believe that
the
> market has changed. In the traditional 2-tier client-server world, I think
> you'll still find PB at the top of the heap, but you will also find that
that
> market has shrunk to a shadow if its former self. So PB is still the big
fish,
> but in a smaller pond.
>
> The new market is in the multi-tiered distributed world where everyone
except
> Java is a small fish. So, your perception might very well be that the
> marketshare PB once held is diminishing, but in fact, you're looking at a
new
> market and PB is just a niche player in that market. Java has reduced
everyones
> market share when it comes to the multi-tiered distributed development
efforts,
> but then again, in the traditional client-server world, Java is a very
small
> player in comparison to PB.
>
> Now you need to figure out which pond you're playing in (or going to play
in),
> and whether it's worthwhile changing ponds, and, if you are going to
change,
> what tool(s) would best be suited for you to deliver what your customer
wants.
>
>
> Secondly, taking a PB app to the web can take anywhere from 2 weeks to
double
> your initial investment depending on what you have, how you want to
approach the
> problem, what your final goals are, and what kind of resources you have
> available. An "average" PB developer would take a while to convert the
> application to be a web-based application, not becuase they can't, or
becuase
> it's difficult, but because it's a paradigm adjustment in how you approach
the
> problem (and nothing to do with the fact that everyone want's to do Java
<g>).
> So, you can convert your application, continue to grow as a developer by
moving
> in to distributed architectures, still use PowerBuilder (with smatterings
of
> Java, JavaScript, DynaScript etc), but not in an extremely short
timeframe.
>
>
> Hope this helps,
> Bill
>
> Robbie Norris wrote:
>
> > Hi. I am looking for some insight about Powerbuilder. First of all, does
> > anyone know what share of the market Powerbuilder has compared to it's
> > competitors. It seems to me it has lost a lot of ground the last few
years
> > but I don't have any hard facts to back up that statement. The reason I
am
> > afraid it has lost ground is because I see less job ads looking for PB
> > programmers and also I know of several companies in my locality that
have
> > stopped developing with PB.
> >
> > Secondly, how hard is it to take a client-server application developed
in PB
> > and convert it to a web application? Suppose I have a client server app
that
> > originally took an average PB programmer 3 months to complete. Nothing
fancy
> > about the app just basic add, update, and delete windows. How long would
it
> > take to convert a small application of that size to the web.
> >
> > Thanks for any thoughts.
> >
> > Robbie
>
> --
> Bill Green[TeamSybase]
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Good Links to know, good places to go:
>
> News: Sybase Portal is live - Go http://my.sybase.com
>
> Developer stuff on my.sybase.com
> Find things like:
> -- EAServer 3.6 maintenance release is available
> -- PowerBuilder C3 maintenance release available (build 8046)
> -- Components, White papers, articles and more
> -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
> -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)
>
> PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com
>
> Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
> Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
>


0
Rick
10/18/2000 4:15:23 PM
You first want to clarify your request. Which market are you looking at?
Client-Server? Web Development? Intranet? Internet? I think that the perception
is that PowerBuilder has lost market share when in fact, I believe that the
market has changed. In the traditional 2-tier client-server world, I think
you'll still find PB at the top of the heap, but you will also find that that
market has shrunk to a shadow if its former self. So PB is still the big fish,
but in a smaller pond.

The new market is in the multi-tiered distributed world where everyone except
Java is a small fish. So, your perception might very well be that the
marketshare PB once held is diminishing, but in fact, you're looking at a new
market and PB is just a niche player in that market. Java has reduced everyones
market share when it comes to the multi-tiered distributed development efforts,
but then again, in the traditional client-server world, Java is a very small
player in comparison to PB.

Now you need to figure out which pond you're playing in (or going to play in),
and whether it's worthwhile changing ponds, and, if you are going to change,
what tool(s) would best be suited for you to deliver what your customer wants.


Secondly, taking a PB app to the web can take anywhere from 2 weeks to double
your initial investment depending on what you have, how you want to approach the
problem, what your final goals are, and what kind of resources you have
available. An "average" PB developer would take a while to convert the
application to be a web-based application, not becuase they can't, or becuase
it's difficult, but because it's a paradigm adjustment in how you approach the
problem (and nothing to do with the fact that everyone want's to do Java <g>).
So, you can convert your application, continue to grow as a developer by moving
in to distributed architectures, still use PowerBuilder (with smatterings of
Java, JavaScript, DynaScript etc), but not in an extremely short timeframe.


Hope this helps,
Bill

Robbie Norris wrote:

> Hi. I am looking for some insight about Powerbuilder. First of all, does
> anyone know what share of the market Powerbuilder has compared to it's
> competitors. It seems to me it has lost a lot of ground the last few years
> but I don't have any hard facts to back up that statement. The reason I am
> afraid it has lost ground is because I see less job ads looking for PB
> programmers and also I know of several companies in my locality that have
> stopped developing with PB.
>
> Secondly, how hard is it to take a client-server application developed in PB
> and convert it to a web application? Suppose I have a client server app that
> originally took an average PB programmer 3 months to complete. Nothing fancy
> about the app just basic add, update, and delete windows. How long would it
> take to convert a small application of that size to the web.
>
> Thanks for any thoughts.
>
> Robbie

--
Bill Green[TeamSybase]
-----------------------------------------------------------
Good Links to know, good places to go:

News: Sybase Portal is live - Go http://my.sybase.com

Developer stuff on my.sybase.com
Find things like:
-- EAServer 3.6 maintenance release is available
-- PowerBuilder C3 maintenance release available (build 8046)
-- Components, White papers, articles and more
-- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
-- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)

PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com

Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


0
Bill
10/18/2000 9:08:13 PM
"Rick George" <sbg@kingwoodcable.com> wrote in message
news:O4OTdLVOAHA.202@forums.sybase.com...
> Bill,
>
> I agree with you.  PB is a niche player in the distributed applications
> develoment pond, but I think we could be a bigger fish if Sybase didn't
keep
> EA Server such a secret.  I've been using PB for 7 years, of which the
last
> 14 months have been with Jaguar (EA Server) as the application server in a
> distributed mode.  I think EA Server is ahead of its time and maybe the
only
> complete application server solution (recently JEII certified), but nobody
> seems to know.

Everybody knows. It's just that it's ahead of it's time in the price
department, that's why people shy away from it...





0
Philip
10/18/2000 10:24:55 PM
Bill,

Yes, I agree with you totally!  I find a lot of PB programmers who don't
have a clue what EA Server is and what it can do....and I would think those
people are the ones who could/should champion the efforts of implementing
distributed solutions with EA Server.  Unfortunately, the traditional PB
developer doesn't always have the opportuntity to get out from under what
they are doing to experience what they can be doing.  In my situation, I
probably never would have learned about it if I hadn't been assigned the job
of presenting the PowerBuilder portion of the 'Sybase Build the Future'
presentation.  At the time, I thought I was a bit unlucky to have been
assigned that task, but after learning it, I chose to implement it for my
next client......

You really hit the nail on the head, I just wonder what Sybase is doing or
how they can tap that market more effectively?????

Thanks Bill,

Rick


"Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message
news:39EEFC6D.371ABF27@teamsybase.com...
> I don't think Sybase is keeping EAServer a secret. EAServer, as of a
couple of
> weeks ago, was joint 2nd in market share with IBM's WebSphere (according
to
> GIGA), still both trailing BEA but also well ahead of any of the other
players.
> So I think you'll fnd that a lot of people know about EAServer. What
Sybase
> perhaps has not done a great job of, is marketing EAServer to their
existing
> PowerBuilder base. Every PB developer should know about EAServer and what
it can
> do. While I like the fact that half of the EAServer customer base are
non-PB
> shops, I don't like the fact that a reasonably small percetnage of PB
shops are
> EAServer shops.
>
> But your point about leveraging PB skills to get to the distributed world
is
> very valid. I'm finding more and more that I can put systems together with
PB as
> the component language, but I do also leverage Java to do some things that
PB is
> not that well suited for. For example, processing forms (with or without
file
> attachments) is soemthing that Java is already well suited for and classes
exist
> that do all the hard work already. While I could probably write this in
PB, why
> wouldn't I leverage what is already out there and proven to work? I think
that a
> good PowerBuilder developer moving into the distributed world should learn
Java,
> not necessarily becuase you want to transition everything to Java, but
becuase
> you want to be as effective as possible. Use the right tool for the right
job.
>
> The push towards Java is also not primarily because Java is a better tool.
I'm
> finding that vendors that build products are moving in this direction
becuase
> their customers want "java-based products". Customers want to stay on the
> forefront of technology, and a lot of OEM type vendors are forced to look
at
> alternatives. EAServer helps in this aspect as well becuase of it's unique
> ability to house PB, Com, Java and Corba components within the same server
and
> affords a more gradual transition rather than the "OK, drop this product,
we'll
> rewrite everything in Java tomorrow".
>
> Personally I think Sybase is on the right track. It will be up to them to
step
> up the marketing to compete with the likes of BEA, but I think doing
things like
> obtaining the J2EE branding from Sun will help. That and the fact that
Sybase
> will actually ship a J2EE branded server months before BEA will.
>
>
> regards,
> Bill
>
> Rick George wrote:
>
> > Bill,
> >
> > I agree with you.  PB is a niche player in the distributed applications
> > develoment pond, but I think we could be a bigger fish if Sybase didn't
keep
> > EA Server such a secret.  I've been using PB for 7 years, of which the
last
> > 14 months have been with Jaguar (EA Server) as the application server in
a
> > distributed mode.  I think EA Server is ahead of its time and maybe the
only
> > complete application server solution (recently JEII certified), but
nobody
> > seems to know.  I think the smart move for Robbie (and others) would be
to
> > leverage their PB skills while developing distributed applications with
EA
> > Server.  It is amazing what you can still do with PB code in EA Server,
in
> > fact, I don't see anything I can't do.  At least in this scenario, you
can
> > write your middle tier components in PowerBuilder, but begin to convert
them
> > to Java as your skills or desires increase.  Then, over time, you will
have
> > learned multi tiered application development as well as other
development
> > tools.  JMO.
> >
> > Rick
> >
> > "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message
> > news:39EE113C.42D5EF3A@teamsybase.com...
> > > You first want to clarify your request. Which market are you looking
at?
> > > Client-Server? Web Development? Intranet? Internet? I think that the
> > perception
> > > is that PowerBuilder has lost market share when in fact, I believe
that
> > the
> > > market has changed. In the traditional 2-tier client-server world, I
think
> > > you'll still find PB at the top of the heap, but you will also find
that
> > that
> > > market has shrunk to a shadow if its former self. So PB is still the
big
> > fish,
> > > but in a smaller pond.
> > >
> > > The new market is in the multi-tiered distributed world where everyone
> > except
> > > Java is a small fish. So, your perception might very well be that the
> > > marketshare PB once held is diminishing, but in fact, you're looking
at a
> > new
> > > market and PB is just a niche player in that market. Java has reduced
> > everyones
> > > market share when it comes to the multi-tiered distributed development
> > efforts,
> > > but then again, in the traditional client-server world, Java is a very
> > small
> > > player in comparison to PB.
> > >
> > > Now you need to figure out which pond you're playing in (or going to
play
> > in),
> > > and whether it's worthwhile changing ponds, and, if you are going to
> > change,
> > > what tool(s) would best be suited for you to deliver what your
customer
> > wants.
> > >
> > >
> > > Secondly, taking a PB app to the web can take anywhere from 2 weeks to
> > double
> > > your initial investment depending on what you have, how you want to
> > approach the
> > > problem, what your final goals are, and what kind of resources you
have
> > > available. An "average" PB developer would take a while to convert the
> > > application to be a web-based application, not becuase they can't, or
> > becuase
> > > it's difficult, but because it's a paradigm adjustment in how you
approach
> > the
> > > problem (and nothing to do with the fact that everyone want's to do
Java
> > <g>).
> > > So, you can convert your application, continue to grow as a developer
by
> > moving
> > > in to distributed architectures, still use PowerBuilder (with
smatterings
> > of
> > > Java, JavaScript, DynaScript etc), but not in an extremely short
> > timeframe.
> > >
> > >
> > > Hope this helps,
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > Robbie Norris wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi. I am looking for some insight about Powerbuilder. First of all,
does
> > > > anyone know what share of the market Powerbuilder has compared to
it's
> > > > competitors. It seems to me it has lost a lot of ground the last few
> > years
> > > > but I don't have any hard facts to back up that statement. The
reason I
> > am
> > > > afraid it has lost ground is because I see less job ads looking for
PB
> > > > programmers and also I know of several companies in my locality that
> > have
> > > > stopped developing with PB.
> > > >
> > > > Secondly, how hard is it to take a client-server application
developed
> > in PB
> > > > and convert it to a web application? Suppose I have a client server
app
> > that
> > > > originally took an average PB programmer 3 months to complete.
Nothing
> > fancy
> > > > about the app just basic add, update, and delete windows. How long
would
> > it
> > > > take to convert a small application of that size to the web.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for any thoughts.
> > > >
> > > > Robbie
> > >
> > > --
> > > Bill Green[TeamSybase]
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > > Good Links to know, good places to go:
> > >
> > > News: Sybase Portal is live - Go http://my.sybase.com
> > >
> > > Developer stuff on my.sybase.com
> > > Find things like:
> > > -- EAServer 3.6 maintenance release is available
> > > -- PowerBuilder C3 maintenance release available (build 8046)
> > > -- Components, White papers, articles and more
> > > -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
> > > -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)
> > >
> > > PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com
> > >
> > > Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
> > > Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
>
> --
> Bill Green[TeamSybase]
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Good Links to know, good places to go:
>
> News: Sybase Portal is live - Go http://my.sybase.com
>
> Developer stuff on my.sybase.com
> Find things like:
> -- EAServer 3.6 maintenance release is available
> -- PowerBuilder C3 maintenance release available (build 8046)
> -- Components, White papers, articles and more
> -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
> -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)
>
> PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com
>
> Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
> Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
>


0
Rick
10/19/2000 8:08:06 AM
I don't think Sybase is keeping EAServer a secret. EAServer, as of a couple of
weeks ago, was joint 2nd in market share with IBM's WebSphere (according to
GIGA), still both trailing BEA but also well ahead of any of the other players.
So I think you'll fnd that a lot of people know about EAServer. What Sybase
perhaps has not done a great job of, is marketing EAServer to their existing
PowerBuilder base. Every PB developer should know about EAServer and what it can
do. While I like the fact that half of the EAServer customer base are non-PB
shops, I don't like the fact that a reasonably small percetnage of PB shops are
EAServer shops.

But your point about leveraging PB skills to get to the distributed world is
very valid. I'm finding more and more that I can put systems together with PB as
the component language, but I do also leverage Java to do some things that PB is
not that well suited for. For example, processing forms (with or without file
attachments) is soemthing that Java is already well suited for and classes exist
that do all the hard work already. While I could probably write this in PB, why
wouldn't I leverage what is already out there and proven to work? I think that a
good PowerBuilder developer moving into the distributed world should learn Java,
not necessarily becuase you want to transition everything to Java, but becuase
you want to be as effective as possible. Use the right tool for the right job.

The push towards Java is also not primarily because Java is a better tool. I'm
finding that vendors that build products are moving in this direction becuase
their customers want "java-based products". Customers want to stay on the
forefront of technology, and a lot of OEM type vendors are forced to look at
alternatives. EAServer helps in this aspect as well becuase of it's unique
ability to house PB, Com, Java and Corba components within the same server and
affords a more gradual transition rather than the "OK, drop this product, we'll
rewrite everything in Java tomorrow".

Personally I think Sybase is on the right track. It will be up to them to step
up the marketing to compete with the likes of BEA, but I think doing things like
obtaining the J2EE branding from Sun will help. That and the fact that Sybase
will actually ship a J2EE branded server months before BEA will.


regards,
Bill

Rick George wrote:

> Bill,
>
> I agree with you.  PB is a niche player in the distributed applications
> develoment pond, but I think we could be a bigger fish if Sybase didn't keep
> EA Server such a secret.  I've been using PB for 7 years, of which the last
> 14 months have been with Jaguar (EA Server) as the application server in a
> distributed mode.  I think EA Server is ahead of its time and maybe the only
> complete application server solution (recently JEII certified), but nobody
> seems to know.  I think the smart move for Robbie (and others) would be to
> leverage their PB skills while developing distributed applications with EA
> Server.  It is amazing what you can still do with PB code in EA Server, in
> fact, I don't see anything I can't do.  At least in this scenario, you can
> write your middle tier components in PowerBuilder, but begin to convert them
> to Java as your skills or desires increase.  Then, over time, you will have
> learned multi tiered application development as well as other development
> tools.  JMO.
>
> Rick
>
> "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message
> news:39EE113C.42D5EF3A@teamsybase.com...
> > You first want to clarify your request. Which market are you looking at?
> > Client-Server? Web Development? Intranet? Internet? I think that the
> perception
> > is that PowerBuilder has lost market share when in fact, I believe that
> the
> > market has changed. In the traditional 2-tier client-server world, I think
> > you'll still find PB at the top of the heap, but you will also find that
> that
> > market has shrunk to a shadow if its former self. So PB is still the big
> fish,
> > but in a smaller pond.
> >
> > The new market is in the multi-tiered distributed world where everyone
> except
> > Java is a small fish. So, your perception might very well be that the
> > marketshare PB once held is diminishing, but in fact, you're looking at a
> new
> > market and PB is just a niche player in that market. Java has reduced
> everyones
> > market share when it comes to the multi-tiered distributed development
> efforts,
> > but then again, in the traditional client-server world, Java is a very
> small
> > player in comparison to PB.
> >
> > Now you need to figure out which pond you're playing in (or going to play
> in),
> > and whether it's worthwhile changing ponds, and, if you are going to
> change,
> > what tool(s) would best be suited for you to deliver what your customer
> wants.
> >
> >
> > Secondly, taking a PB app to the web can take anywhere from 2 weeks to
> double
> > your initial investment depending on what you have, how you want to
> approach the
> > problem, what your final goals are, and what kind of resources you have
> > available. An "average" PB developer would take a while to convert the
> > application to be a web-based application, not becuase they can't, or
> becuase
> > it's difficult, but because it's a paradigm adjustment in how you approach
> the
> > problem (and nothing to do with the fact that everyone want's to do Java
> <g>).
> > So, you can convert your application, continue to grow as a developer by
> moving
> > in to distributed architectures, still use PowerBuilder (with smatterings
> of
> > Java, JavaScript, DynaScript etc), but not in an extremely short
> timeframe.
> >
> >
> > Hope this helps,
> > Bill
> >
> > Robbie Norris wrote:
> >
> > > Hi. I am looking for some insight about Powerbuilder. First of all, does
> > > anyone know what share of the market Powerbuilder has compared to it's
> > > competitors. It seems to me it has lost a lot of ground the last few
> years
> > > but I don't have any hard facts to back up that statement. The reason I
> am
> > > afraid it has lost ground is because I see less job ads looking for PB
> > > programmers and also I know of several companies in my locality that
> have
> > > stopped developing with PB.
> > >
> > > Secondly, how hard is it to take a client-server application developed
> in PB
> > > and convert it to a web application? Suppose I have a client server app
> that
> > > originally took an average PB programmer 3 months to complete. Nothing
> fancy
> > > about the app just basic add, update, and delete windows. How long would
> it
> > > take to convert a small application of that size to the web.
> > >
> > > Thanks for any thoughts.
> > >
> > > Robbie
> >
> > --
> > Bill Green[TeamSybase]
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > Good Links to know, good places to go:
> >
> > News: Sybase Portal is live - Go http://my.sybase.com
> >
> > Developer stuff on my.sybase.com
> > Find things like:
> > -- EAServer 3.6 maintenance release is available
> > -- PowerBuilder C3 maintenance release available (build 8046)
> > -- Components, White papers, articles and more
> > -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
> > -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)
> >
> > PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com
> >
> > Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
> > Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >

--
Bill Green[TeamSybase]
-----------------------------------------------------------
Good Links to know, good places to go:

News: Sybase Portal is live - Go http://my.sybase.com

Developer stuff on my.sybase.com
Find things like:
-- EAServer 3.6 maintenance release is available
-- PowerBuilder C3 maintenance release available (build 8046)
-- Components, White papers, articles and more
-- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
-- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)

PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com

Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


0
Bill
10/19/2000 1:51:41 PM
Agreed. We can't ask our customers to buy it to support our software. We
will probably wind up with the third tier stuff in Java within the Oracle
server.
Speaking of which, Sybase is also keeping PowerJ a secret. It was not
included in a recent Internet Week comparison of Java IDEs.

Philip Salgannik wrote in message ...
>
>"Rick George" <sbg@kingwoodcable.com> wrote in message
>news:O4OTdLVOAHA.202@forums.sybase.com...
>> Bill,
>>
>> I agree with you.  PB is a niche player in the distributed applications
>> develoment pond, but I think we could be a bigger fish if Sybase didn't
>keep
>> EA Server such a secret.  I've been using PB for 7 years, of which the
>last
>> 14 months have been with Jaguar (EA Server) as the application server in
a
>> distributed mode.  I think EA Server is ahead of its time and maybe the
>only
>> complete application server solution (recently JEII certified), but
nobody
>> seems to know.
>
>Everybody knows. It's just that it's ahead of it's time in the price
>department, that's why people shy away from it...
>
>
>
>
>


0
Jerry
10/19/2000 2:01:03 PM
First, I would suggest talking to Sybase if you are marketing software to
clients. As an OEM, the price that you would have to pass on to your customer
would be different from the price of buying a deoployment version.

Secondly, EAServer is one of the lowest cost full-featured application servers
out there. It's well within the cost curve for app-servers, and quite a bit
cheaper than the other two market leaders.

Lastly, I agree about PowerJ. It's not in the same competitive circle as the
other Java IDE's. However, (I have not seen the article), I would bet that the
most popular Java IDE is also not mentioned in that article - Notepad.


regards,
Bill

Jerry Siegel wrote:

> Agreed. We can't ask our customers to buy it to support our software. We
> will probably wind up with the third tier stuff in Java within the Oracle
> server.
> Speaking of which, Sybase is also keeping PowerJ a secret. It was not
> included in a recent Internet Week comparison of Java IDEs.
>
> Philip Salgannik wrote in message ...
> >
> >"Rick George" <sbg@kingwoodcable.com> wrote in message
> >news:O4OTdLVOAHA.202@forums.sybase.com...
> >> Bill,
> >>
> >> I agree with you.  PB is a niche player in the distributed applications
> >> develoment pond, but I think we could be a bigger fish if Sybase didn't
> >keep
> >> EA Server such a secret.  I've been using PB for 7 years, of which the
> >last
> >> 14 months have been with Jaguar (EA Server) as the application server in
> a
> >> distributed mode.  I think EA Server is ahead of its time and maybe the
> >only
> >> complete application server solution (recently JEII certified), but
> nobody
> >> seems to know.
> >
> >Everybody knows. It's just that it's ahead of it's time in the price
> >department, that's why people shy away from it...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

--
Bill Green[TeamSybase]
-----------------------------------------------------------
Good Links to know, good places to go:

News: Sybase Portal is live - Go http://my.sybase.com

Developer stuff on my.sybase.com
Find things like:
-- EAServer 3.6 maintenance release is available
-- PowerBuilder C3 maintenance release available (build 8046)
-- Components, White papers, articles and more
-- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
-- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)

PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com

Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


0
Bill
10/19/2000 2:42:42 PM
Our CEO has the same concerns (or thinks our customers have them) that
sparked this thread, so he is more comfortable with Oracle as the platform
for the Web and app-server extensions now being planned. PB was
best-of-breed when the app was first written [PB4], but is now a victim of
Lenon's Law: In retrospect, all technology decisions are wrong.

They did include CodeWarrior in the review -
http://www.internetwk.com/reviews00/rev100200.htm

Bill Green[TeamSybase] wrote in message
<39EF0862.6C5E4396@teamsybase.com>...
>First, I would suggest talking to Sybase if you are marketing software to
>clients. As an OEM, the price that you would have to pass on to your
customer
>would be different from the price of buying a deoployment version.
>
>Secondly, EAServer is one of the lowest cost full-featured application
servers
>out there. It's well within the cost curve for app-servers, and quite a bit
>cheaper than the other two market leaders.
>
>Lastly, I agree about PowerJ. It's not in the same competitive circle as
the
>other Java IDE's. However, (I have not seen the article), I would bet that
the
>most popular Java IDE is also not mentioned in that article - Notepad.
>
>
>regards,
>Bill
>
>Jerry Siegel wrote:
>
>> Agreed. We can't ask our customers to buy it to support our software. We
>> will probably wind up with the third tier stuff in Java within the Oracle
>> server.
>> Speaking of which, Sybase is also keeping PowerJ a secret. It was not
>> included in a recent Internet Week comparison of Java IDEs.
>>
>> Philip Salgannik wrote in message ...
>> >
>> >"Rick George" <sbg@kingwoodcable.com> wrote in message
>> >news:O4OTdLVOAHA.202@forums.sybase.com...
>> >> Bill,
>> >>
>> >> I agree with you.  PB is a niche player in the distributed
applications
>> >> develoment pond, but I think we could be a bigger fish if Sybase
didn't
>> >keep
>> >> EA Server such a secret.  I've been using PB for 7 years, of which the
>> >last
>> >> 14 months have been with Jaguar (EA Server) as the application server
in
>> a
>> >> distributed mode.  I think EA Server is ahead of its time and maybe
the
>> >only
>> >> complete application server solution (recently JEII certified), but
>> nobody
>> >> seems to know.
>> >
>> >Everybody knows. It's just that it's ahead of it's time in the price
>> >department, that's why people shy away from it...
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>--
>Bill Green[TeamSybase]
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>Good Links to know, good places to go:
>
>News: Sybase Portal is live - Go http://my.sybase.com
>
>Developer stuff on my.sybase.com
>Find things like:
>-- EAServer 3.6 maintenance release is available
>-- PowerBuilder C3 maintenance release available (build 8046)
>-- Components, White papers, articles and more
>-- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
>-- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)
>
>PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com
>
>Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
>Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>


0
Jerry
10/19/2000 3:30:57 PM
"Bill Green[TeamSybase]" wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> Lastly, I agree about PowerJ. It's not in the same competitive circle as the
> other Java IDE's. However, (I have not seen the article), I would bet that the
> most popular Java IDE is also not mentioned in that article - Notepad.
> 
I would think it is emacs - the universal IDE for real programmers  ;-)

Thomas
0
Thomas
10/19/2000 3:55:44 PM
Jerry,
If your customers are price-driven only, and would rather host your critical
components in a brain-dead, smoke-and-mirrors, quasi-combo/database-app
server (Oracle), rather than make an investment in a solid, proven, scalable
application server like EAServer, than it's your CEO's responsibility to
educate them on the risks...
Ours did that for our customers, and they're all completely on board.  With
the OEM arrangement, we'll be embedding EAServer in our application suite
for a fraction of the cost of BEA/Websphere.

Paul Horan [TeamSybase]
Buffalo, NY

"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
news:tG7JiNeOAHA.201@forums.sybase.com...
> Our CEO has the same concerns (or thinks our customers have them) that
> sparked this thread, so he is more comfortable with Oracle as the platform
> for the Web and app-server extensions now being planned. PB was
> best-of-breed when the app was first written [PB4], but is now a victim of
> Lenon's Law: In retrospect, all technology decisions are wrong.
>
> They did include CodeWarrior in the review -
> http://www.internetwk.com/reviews00/rev100200.htm
>
> Bill Green[TeamSybase] wrote in message
> <39EF0862.6C5E4396@teamsybase.com>...
> >First, I would suggest talking to Sybase if you are marketing software to
> >clients. As an OEM, the price that you would have to pass on to your
> customer
> >would be different from the price of buying a deoployment version.
> >
> >Secondly, EAServer is one of the lowest cost full-featured application
> servers
> >out there. It's well within the cost curve for app-servers, and quite a
bit
> >cheaper than the other two market leaders.
> >
> >Lastly, I agree about PowerJ. It's not in the same competitive circle as
> the
> >other Java IDE's. However, (I have not seen the article), I would bet
that
> the
> >most popular Java IDE is also not mentioned in that article - Notepad.
> >
> >
> >regards,
> >Bill
> >
> >Jerry Siegel wrote:
> >
> >> Agreed. We can't ask our customers to buy it to support our software.
We
> >> will probably wind up with the third tier stuff in Java within the
Oracle
> >> server.
> >> Speaking of which, Sybase is also keeping PowerJ a secret. It was not
> >> included in a recent Internet Week comparison of Java IDEs.
> >>
> >> Philip Salgannik wrote in message ...
> >> >
> >> >"Rick George" <sbg@kingwoodcable.com> wrote in message
> >> >news:O4OTdLVOAHA.202@forums.sybase.com...
> >> >> Bill,
> >> >>
> >> >> I agree with you.  PB is a niche player in the distributed
> applications
> >> >> develoment pond, but I think we could be a bigger fish if Sybase
> didn't
> >> >keep
> >> >> EA Server such a secret.  I've been using PB for 7 years, of which
the
> >> >last
> >> >> 14 months have been with Jaguar (EA Server) as the application
server
> in
> >> a
> >> >> distributed mode.  I think EA Server is ahead of its time and maybe
> the
> >> >only
> >> >> complete application server solution (recently JEII certified), but
> >> nobody
> >> >> seems to know.
> >> >
> >> >Everybody knows. It's just that it's ahead of it's time in the price
> >> >department, that's why people shy away from it...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >
> >--
> >Bill Green[TeamSybase]
> >-----------------------------------------------------------
> >Good Links to know, good places to go:
> >
> >News: Sybase Portal is live - Go http://my.sybase.com
> >
> >Developer stuff on my.sybase.com
> >Find things like:
> >-- EAServer 3.6 maintenance release is available
> >-- PowerBuilder C3 maintenance release available (build 8046)
> >-- Components, White papers, articles and more
> >-- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
> >-- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)
> >
> >PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com
> >
> >Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
> >Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
> >-----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>


0
Paul
10/19/2000 6:12:27 PM
I find it hard to believe that market share.

They had another recently at the JBoss site where they were showing
estimates
of the app server market and EAServer was way down at the bottom with 1%
market
share.

Sorry to say so, but feels more realistic to what I see considering that
BEA, Websphere, Orion, etc. seem to getting all the buzz...



0
Jacek
10/19/2000 8:14:12 PM
I'd forget any market share stats anyone produces, all rubbish. If you want
a real idea of what is *actually* being used, look at the job market and see
what is being recruited for. Here in the UK there are only 4 ad's  for EAS
related work and over 400 for Websphere related ad's (from Jobserve). If
people are not recruiting for it, it's probably not being used...

I'm sure EAServer is a far superior product by far, but it all comes down to
how aggressively something is marketed and how much it is hyped. That just
about sums Sybase up, Technically brilliant products - incredibly bad
marketing / coverage.

Paul.
--

Jacek Furmankiewicz wrote:

> I find it hard to believe that market share.
>
> They had another recently at the JBoss site where they were showing
> estimates
> of the app server market and EAServer was way down at the bottom with 1%
> market
> share.
>
> Sorry to say so, but feels more realistic to what I see considering that
> BEA, Websphere, Orion, etc. seem to getting all the buzz...

0
Paul
10/20/2000 11:36:47 AM
)-: Isn't that what happened to Betamax?

Paul Daniels wrote in message
<39F02E4F.75CDAF3D@nospamplease_newfocus.demon.co.uk>...
>I'd forget any market share stats anyone produces, all rubbish. If you want
>a real idea of what is *actually* being used, look at the job market and
see
>what is being recruited for. Here in the UK there are only 4 ad's  for EAS
>related work and over 400 for Websphere related ad's (from Jobserve). If
>people are not recruiting for it, it's probably not being used...
>
>I'm sure EAServer is a far superior product by far, but it all comes down
to
>how aggressively something is marketed and how much it is hyped. That just
>about sums Sybase up, Technically brilliant products - incredibly bad
>marketing / coverage.
>
>Paul.
>--
>
>Jacek Furmankiewicz wrote:
>
>> I find it hard to believe that market share.
>>
>> They had another recently at the JBoss site where they were showing
>> estimates
>> of the app server market and EAServer was way down at the bottom with 1%
>> market
>> share.
>>
>> Sorry to say so, but feels more realistic to what I see considering that
>> BEA, Websphere, Orion, etc. seem to getting all the buzz...
>


0
Jerry
10/20/2000 1:21:49 PM
I'm not much convinced by GIGA about anything they do (which is mostly
"educated" guesswork), but when they publish market share numbers, they have
to do some investigative work to get the numbers. I guess it depends on who
you feel has a better pulse on the industry. EAServer sales have been
increasing by triple-digit percentages every quarter since 3.0 was released,
and Sybase has posted yet another earnings quarter that is a) profitable,
and b) beat the analysts expectations. That is a much more telling
indication to me that Sybase is doing the right things, at least in some
areas. I agree that marketing needs to be beefed up more than it has been,
but I also know that the marketing is way better than it was a year or 2
ago. I'm counting on the trends to continue and as my client list expands,
I'm finding more and more of them are also betting on Sybase again whereas
they may have considered other alternatives not too recently.

I'd ask jBoss where they get their numbers from, and also what segment of
the appserver market they are talking about.(Java only, Java/Corba/ general
App Server etc). Keep in mind that very few of the players in this market
can compete in the Java, Corba and Com space at the same time. This is why I
think that EAServer will continue to grow even when this market begins to
mature, which won't happen for another 12-15 months yet.

regards
Bill

Jacek Furmankiewicz wrote:

> I find it hard to believe that market share.
>
> They had another recently at the JBoss site where they were showing
> estimates
> of the app server market and EAServer was way down at the bottom with 1%
> market
> share.
>
> Sorry to say so, but feels more realistic to what I see considering that
> BEA, Websphere, Orion, etc. seem to getting all the buzz...

--
Bill Green[TeamSybase]
-----------------------------------------------------------
Good Links to know, good places to go:

News: Sybase Portal is live - Go http://my.sybase.com

Developer stuff on my.sybase.com
Find things like:
-- EAServer 3.6 maintenance release is available
-- PowerBuilder C3 maintenance release available (build 8046)
-- Components, White papers, articles and more
-- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
-- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)

PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com

Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


0
Bill
10/20/2000 1:34:55 PM
Has your CEO examined Oracle's track history on this kind of thing?  Other
than their database server and their forms product, all of their other
products are 'products for a moment'.  In the app server arena in particular,
there was OWS 3.0, which had a cartridge that supported the developer
product.  Then there was OAS 4.0, which supported CORBA and PL/SQL, but
dropped support for the developer product except for acting as a load
balancer for it.  Finally they dropped a seperate app server entirely and
decided that everything should be in the database.  If you standardize on
Oracle's product, be prepared to re-write everything every year or so as
Oracle shifts is product direction every  time the wind changes and drops 
support for the older products like hot potatoes.

On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:30:57 -0400,
 in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.general
Jerry Siegel <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote: 
>Our CEO has the same concerns (or thinks our customers have them) that
>sparked this thread, so he is more comfortable with Oracle as the platform
>for the Web and app-server extensions now being planned. PB was
>best-of-breed when the app was first written [PB4], but is now a victim of
>Lenon's Law: In retrospect, all technology decisions are wrong.

Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]
mailto:Bruce.Armstrong@teamsybase.com

Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words. [Francis of Assisi]
http://www.kidbrothers.org                | http://www.fccwc.org
http://www.harvest.org/knowgod/index.htm  | http://www.needhim.org
http://www.jesusfilm.org/view/realvideo/rv/languages/english.ram

-----------== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==----------
http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
0
Bruce
10/20/2000 4:07:11 PM
"Paul Daniels" <paul.daniels@nospamplease_newfocus.demon.co.uk> wrote in
message news:39F02E4F.75CDAF3D@nospamplease_newfocus.demon.co.uk...

> I'm sure EAServer is a far superior product by far, but it all comes down
to
> how aggressively something is marketed and how much it is hyped. That just
> about sums Sybase up, Technically brilliant products - incredibly bad
> marketing / coverage.
>
> Paul.
> --
>
> Jacek Furmankiewicz wrote:
>
> > I find it hard to believe that market share.
> >
> > They had another recently at the JBoss site where they were showing
> > estimates
> > of the app server market and EAServer was way down at the bottom with 1%
> > market
> > share.
> >
> > Sorry to say so, but feels more realistic to what I see considering that
> > BEA, Websphere, Orion, etc. seem to getting all the buzz...
>
Interesting comments.  In the client server world, I agree the PB 7 is a
fine product for the most part.  However, there is still no real interest in
supporting the product.  Windows 2000 has been predominate in the
development world for a year and in the end user "new system" world for over
8 months.  Sybase does not yet "offically" support this environment.  SQL
Server 7 and SQL Server 2000 have been out for 3 years and Sybase still has
many problems with them.  The "native" driver still uses db-lib that was
delegated with legacy status 4 years ago.  ODBC driver is second rate ( must
have block = 1, very slow,  IDE DB environment not completed, problems with
field lengths on "LIKE" queries ). OLE_DB driver worse on the bug area (
connects w/o .udl file take an extra 6 seconds, datetime variables not bound
to PB datetime variables correctly, problems with trailing spaces).  These
are granted "minor" problems, however, they affect a great number of users
( or previous users ) of PB and have been know since PB 7 Beta.

Whe you note:
1. W2k and SQL Server have been proven to be both the price and performance
leaders ( TPC-C bennchmarks )
2.  Market share
3.  Microsoft's stated directions

Sybase is missing the mark.

Also, the printersetup() dialog that has a cancel button but no way for the
programmer to know that it was clicked is the number complaint from our
customers. (And, Yes if have looked PowerPrinter and the others.  Found them
to be lacking)

It is amazing that Sybase can come so close and then just ignore the last 1%
to complete the product.  The ignoring SQL Server and w2k to push it's
database product (and Application Server) will probably destroy
Sybase/PB/Watcom.  Just think about WordPerfect, Novell, and SCO - all
leaders that lost sight of the market.



0
Tyler
10/20/2000 6:43:22 PM
Not quite accurate. Win2K is in no way predominant, especially in the Corporate
world, not even now. SQL Server 2000 just came out of Beta this month - at least
according to my MSDN subscription. I don't use MS Sql Server personally, nor
have I had a client that does, so I can't comment about the drivers other than
most of the ODBC drivers provided aren't written by Sybase.

As for the TPC-C benchmarks, unless it changed recently, Sybase System 12
running on a Sun Server established a new record for the TPC-C benchmark
according to this press release:

--- excerpt
September 7, 2000-Leading the field in price/performance - and underscoring its
commitment to offering customers the very best technology - Sybase, Inc.
(NASDAQ: SYBS), today announced record-setting results of an audited Transaction
Processing Performance Council-C (TPC-C) benchmark of Sybase� Adaptive Server�
Enterprise (ASE) 12.0.0.2, its flagship, portal-ready database on the Sun
Enterprise� 10000 server (also know as Starfire�) running the Solaris� Operating
Environment. ASE 12.0.0.2 captured the No.1 slot in SMP database performance,
beating Oracle's best TPC-C performance on Sun's Starfire platform by 36
percent.
--- end

I think one thing missing from the equation, especially in terms of marketing,
is that we as customers should at least make some sort of effort to follow what
the company is doing. All of the information anyone needs to know about Sybase
Database, App Servers, Tools etc is available off their website.

I do agree that Sybase is getting close but not finishing the products. I also
think however, that it is a product of being in the "catch-up" market segment.
Let's face it, the companies setting the standards are Microsoft and Sun so they
have an advantage in being able to prepare for "the next great thing" way ahead
of anyone else. MS spent over 8 years on Win2K. How much time do their
competitors have? Granted, Sun is much more a hardware vendor than a software
leader, but they control the Java specs but with less firm a grip than does MS.
I'd be more interested in how good a job the other vendors are doing in keeping
up with the specs that MS and Sun run out there every 18 months or so. I'd bet
that Sybase is among the leaders (and in the Java space, IS the leader).

Finally, it's my opinion that Sybase products will support Win2K pretty soon,
although I'll add that the products will run on Win2K. They're just not
"certified" to run on Win2k.


</Soapbox>

Bill



Tyler Cruse wrote:

> "Paul Daniels" <paul.daniels@nospamplease_newfocus.demon.co.uk> wrote in
> message news:39F02E4F.75CDAF3D@nospamplease_newfocus.demon.co.uk...
>
> > I'm sure EAServer is a far superior product by far, but it all comes down
> to
> > how aggressively something is marketed and how much it is hyped. That just
> > about sums Sybase up, Technically brilliant products - incredibly bad
> > marketing / coverage.
> >
> > Paul.
> > --
> >
> > Jacek Furmankiewicz wrote:
> >
> > > I find it hard to believe that market share.
> > >
> > > They had another recently at the JBoss site where they were showing
> > > estimates
> > > of the app server market and EAServer was way down at the bottom with 1%
> > > market
> > > share.
> > >
> > > Sorry to say so, but feels more realistic to what I see considering that
> > > BEA, Websphere, Orion, etc. seem to getting all the buzz...
> >
> Interesting comments.  In the client server world, I agree the PB 7 is a
> fine product for the most part.  However, there is still no real interest in
> supporting the product.  Windows 2000 has been predominate in the
> development world for a year and in the end user "new system" world for over
> 8 months.  Sybase does not yet "offically" support this environment.  SQL
> Server 7 and SQL Server 2000 have been out for 3 years and Sybase still has
> many problems with them.  The "native" driver still uses db-lib that was
> delegated with legacy status 4 years ago.  ODBC driver is second rate ( must
> have block = 1, very slow,  IDE DB environment not completed, problems with
> field lengths on "LIKE" queries ). OLE_DB driver worse on the bug area (
> connects w/o .udl file take an extra 6 seconds, datetime variables not bound
> to PB datetime variables correctly, problems with trailing spaces).  These
> are granted "minor" problems, however, they affect a great number of users
> ( or previous users ) of PB and have been know since PB 7 Beta.
>
> Whe you note:
> 1. W2k and SQL Server have been proven to be both the price and performance
> leaders ( TPC-C bennchmarks )
> 2.  Market share
> 3.  Microsoft's stated directions
>
> Sybase is missing the mark.
>
> Also, the printersetup() dialog that has a cancel button but no way for the
> programmer to know that it was clicked is the number complaint from our
> customers. (And, Yes if have looked PowerPrinter and the others.  Found them
> to be lacking)
>
> It is amazing that Sybase can come so close and then just ignore the last 1%
> to complete the product.  The ignoring SQL Server and w2k to push it's
> database product (and Application Server) will probably destroy
> Sybase/PB/Watcom.  Just think about WordPerfect, Novell, and SCO - all
> leaders that lost sight of the market.

--
Bill Green[TeamSybase]
-----------------------------------------------------------
Good Links to know, good places to go:

News: Sybase Portal is live - Go http://my.sybase.com

Developer stuff on my.sybase.com
Find things like:
-- EAServer 3.6 maintenance release is available
-- PowerBuilder C3 maintenance release available (build 8046)
-- Components, White papers, articles and more
-- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
-- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)

PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com

Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


0
Bill
10/20/2000 7:37:41 PM
"Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message
news:39F09F05.B52AA027@teamsybase.com...
> Not quite accurate. Win2K is in no way predominant, especially in the
Corporate
> world, not even now. SQL Server 2000 just came out of Beta this month - at
least
> according to my MSDN subscription. I don't use MS Sql Server personally,
nor
> have I had a client that does, so I can't comment about the drivers other
than
> most of the ODBC drivers provided aren't written by Sybase.

You would have to look really hard to find a medium size or above
corporation that is does not have at least a migration plan in place.  Just
look at Compaq I-PAC and HP e-Vectra corporate sales (a really long waiting
list for our last shipment).  MSDN members received the final release on
4/18/2000 by my records. However, SQL Server beta's have been wide spread
all year.  In any case, development tools need to be released early enough
to allow developers to have their software ready to ship when Microsoft
ships.

The ODBC drivers when used from VC++ or VB 6 SP4 do not exhibit the problems
that I see on PB 7.  So, the issue is not in the native ODBC driver supplied
with DMAC but with the layer between PB script and the ODBC interface. I
have on several occasions taked small pieces of code from PB and moved them
to VB (ODBC Direct and ADO/ODBC) and C (ODBC API ) just to make sure that my
logic was not in error.

It is not important that ODBC and OLE-DB are supported.  It is important
that one of the native interfaces be supported so that the MS SQL Server
feature set can be used.  Long VarChar,  Indexed Views,  Storing TEXT
columns as VarChar when small enough,  determining the difference from
informational messages and result set data ...

> As for the TPC-C benchmarks, unless it changed recently, Sybase System 12
> running on a Sun Server established a new record for the TPC-C benchmark
> according to this press release:
>
See http://www.tpc.org/new_result/ttperf.idc

Sybase best slot is # 9 and 2.4 times as expensive. 156,000 vs. 505,000
transactions


0
Tyler
10/20/2000 9:03:55 PM
Reply:

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