That subject line should get your attention. <g> I'm very pleased with the participation in this group. We've obviously provided a well for a very thirsty group of developers! As you may or may not know, PB 9 is about to go into Beta and the feature set has pretty much been frozen. I know a lot of these requests are for very useful features and hopefully many will some day be incorporated into PB. I don't know what can be done for PB 9 at this point. Just don't want to falsely get people's hopes up. What I would like to do, is raise the discussion to a higher level of abstraction. Instead of specifics (please feel free to continue to post those too) I would like to get a feel for where you, as a PB developer would like to see PowerBuilder go in the future. Do you want it to generate Java? Do you want it to compile to the MSIL layer for .NET? Do you think it should focus more on features for client server applications? Do you think it should incorporate more features to make web development easier? Is it important to you that PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume them) or does that not interest you in the least? (These are just some ideas, I'd like to hear others.) What do you think Sybase needs to do with PowerBuilder to make it thrive and regain some of the glory it had a few years ago? I've read some of your messages about it being too late and I understand the bitterness you may feel. Unfortunately I don't have a time machine so I can't go back a few years and change Sybase's past strategy with regard to PowerBuilder. We do have an opportunity now to influence the direction that PB goes in and I'm asking for your ideas to start that change now. Regards, Dave Fish [TeamSybase]
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I would like to see native PowerBuilder component support in other application servers such as WebSphere. Right now the biggest thing I hear when I suggest PB components is "We don't want to be tied to EA Server". PB generating Java would be nice, but I am afraid that would be full of bugs and nuances that may not be worth while. "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message news:3c8e238d.7608760@199.93.177.77... > That subject line should get your attention. <g> > > I'm very pleased with the participation in this group. We've obviously > provided a well for a very thirsty group of developers! > > As you may or may not know, PB 9 is about to go into Beta and the > feature set has pretty much been frozen. I know a lot of these > requests are for very useful features and hopefully many will some day > be incorporated into PB. I don't know what can be done for PB 9 at > this point. Just don't want to falsely get people's hopes up. > > What I would like to do, is raise the discussion to a higher level of > abstraction. Instead of specifics (please feel free to continue to > post those too) I would like to get a feel for where you, as a PB > developer would like to see PowerBuilder go in the future. > > Do you want it to generate Java? Do you want it to compile to the MSIL > layer for .NET? Do you think it should focus more on features for > client server applications? Do you think it should incorporate more > features to make web development easier? Is it important to you that > PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume them) or does that > not interest you in the least? (These are just some ideas, I'd like to > hear others.) > > What do you think Sybase needs to do with PowerBuilder to make it > thrive and regain some of the glory it had a few years ago? > > I've read some of your messages about it being too late and I > understand the bitterness you may feel. Unfortunately I don't have a > time machine so I can't go back a few years and change Sybase's past > strategy with regard to PowerBuilder. We do have an opportunity now to > influence the direction that PB goes in and I'm asking for your ideas > to start that change now. > > Regards, > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Dave Fish [Team Sybase] wrote: >Do you want it to generate Java? No. >Do you want it to compile to the MSIL layer for .NET? No. >Do you think it should incorporate more features to make web development easier? No. >Is it important to you that PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume them) or does that not interest you in the least? No. >Do you think it should focus more on features for client server applications? Yes, but first make the damn thing USABLE! Send all the high-tech geeks on a well deserved cruise and bring in a team of usability experts to perform disaster control. Before the geeks return set all their home pages to "The Interface Hall of Shame" ( http://www.iarchitect.com/shame.htm ). Sorry, this isn't exactly bringing the discussion up to a higher level, is it? Bill Norton Austin, TX
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:36:30 -0500, "Daniel Coppersmith" <daniel@N.0.S.P.A.M_infrontsoftware.com> wrote: >I would like to see native PowerBuilder component support in other >application servers such as WebSphere. > But doesn't that application server vendor have to provide some sort of support for running the PB VM? Sybase can only do so much. If IBM doesn't allow you to call PB components (or initialize the PBVM from WebSphere like EAServer does now) how would it be workable? >Right now the biggest thing I hear when I suggest PB components is "We don't >want to be tied to EA Server". > >PB generating Java would be nice, but I am afraid that would be full of bugs >and nuances that may not be worth while. I tend to agree with you. I wouldn't want to see the issues that arose when they added compiled (C++ code) happen again. Regards, Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > > >"Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message >news:3c8e238d.7608760@199.93.177.77... >> That subject line should get your attention. <g> >> >> I'm very pleased with the participation in this group. We've obviously >> provided a well for a very thirsty group of developers! >> >> As you may or may not know, PB 9 is about to go into Beta and the >> feature set has pretty much been frozen. I know a lot of these >> requests are for very useful features and hopefully many will some day >> be incorporated into PB. I don't know what can be done for PB 9 at >> this point. Just don't want to falsely get people's hopes up. >> >> What I would like to do, is raise the discussion to a higher level of >> abstraction. Instead of specifics (please feel free to continue to >> post those too) I would like to get a feel for where you, as a PB >> developer would like to see PowerBuilder go in the future. >> >> Do you want it to generate Java? Do you want it to compile to the MSIL >> layer for .NET? Do you think it should focus more on features for >> client server applications? Do you think it should incorporate more >> features to make web development easier? Is it important to you that >> PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume them) or does that >> not interest you in the least? (These are just some ideas, I'd like to >> hear others.) >> >> What do you think Sybase needs to do with PowerBuilder to make it >> thrive and regain some of the glory it had a few years ago? >> >> I've read some of your messages about it being too late and I >> understand the bitterness you may feel. Unfortunately I don't have a >> time machine so I can't go back a few years and change Sybase's past >> strategy with regard to PowerBuilder. We do have an opportunity now to >> influence the direction that PB goes in and I'm asking for your ideas >> to start that change now. >> >> Regards, >> Dave Fish [TeamSybase] >> > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
>>Do you think it should focus more on features for client server applications? >Yes, but first make the damn thing USABLE! Send all the high-tech geeks on a >well deserved cruise and bring in a team of usability experts to perform >disaster control. Before the geeks return set all their home pages to "The >Interface Hall of Shame" ( http://www.iarchitect.com/shame.htm ). > Without causing this thread to degenerate into another enhancements list, why do you think it is unusable? >Sorry, this isn't exactly bringing the discussion up to a higher level, is it? No, but if you intend to (and want to) continue to be a PB developer then we need to listen to your complaints and respond where we can. Do others agree with Bill's comments? In your opinion Is PB unusable? Does it have a horrible interface? Regards, Dave Fish [TeamSybase]
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Bill - Can I ask what exactly you're referring to when you say make 'the damn thing useable?' Are you talking about PB in general? If that's the case, I'm sorry but I don't agree..Could you give an example please? Thanks ---- Dave, I'm still a newbie at all this and there are thing in PB that could be better, but I'm not sure on something. Is Sybase pulling away from client-server to catch up to what everyone else is doing? Thanks -- Evita R. Chapa Senior Systems Analyst Command Technlogies, Inc "Bill Norton" <bnorton@austin.rr.com> wrote in message news:43kBKYeyBHA.206@forums.sybase.com... > Dave Fish [Team Sybase] wrote: > > >Do you want it to generate Java? > No. > > >Do you want it to compile to the MSIL layer for .NET? > No. > > >Do you think it should incorporate more features to make web development > easier? > No. > > >Is it important to you that PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume > them) or does that not interest you in the least? > No. > > >Do you think it should focus more on features for client server applications? > Yes, but first make the damn thing USABLE! Send all the high-tech geeks on a > well deserved cruise and bring in a team of usability experts to perform > disaster control. Before the geeks return set all their home pages to "The > Interface Hall of Shame" ( http://www.iarchitect.com/shame.htm ). > > Sorry, this isn't exactly bringing the discussion up to a higher level, is it? > Bill Norton > Austin, TX
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
>Dave, > >I'm still a newbie at all this and there are thing in PB that could be >better, but I'm not sure on something. Is Sybase pulling away from >client-server to catch up to what everyone else is doing? > No not at all. Sybase recognizes that there is still a big demand out their for a client server development tool. I also think that PB's web and n-tier support is pretty solid (especially what is planned for PB 9). I can't think of many other tools out there that let you do what PB does in one package. We know what the analyst are saying PB should do. Product management has ideas on where PB should go based on industry trends, etc. but I want to hear what the people at the coal-face so to speak want. Resources are limited. I'd hate to see Sybase devote a lot of resources (time & money) to a feature that developers have little interest in. Regards, Dave Fish [TeamSybase]
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
My honest opinion: PB should stick to being a client-side development tool. If I want to have a partitioned app with different tiers I may want to use PowerBuilder on the client side but I don't think I would ever choose PowerBuilder for the server side. I don't think the PowerBuilder language will ever become a serious contender on the server. It can't compete against Java, C++, .Net. One of the things I think is looong overdue and I heard was finally coming about in 9 is the ability for PB to interact with app servers other than EAServer. I think Sybase should go about making PB work as seemlessly as possible with EAServer, WebSphere, WebLogic, .Net. I want these connections to work like database connections do (for the most part). That is I want to be able to write my clientside code without concern about what the backend is. I think PB needs to focus more on GUI functionality. Some people have said that its not to hard to point out a PowerBuilder app. Thats because PB is not pretty. I think PB needs to get pretty to compete on the clientside. Modern visual functionality and GUI components. The problem with all this is that the datawindow doesn't really fit in with this. I think the datawindow needs to be reworked so you can visually design a datawindow with an object as a source. This object would most likely be a component on your server. Once you partition your app, it seems illogical that you should still be designing your datawindow against the database. If you are architecting correctly, the datawindow should be designed by what the component is passing to the client, not the database. IMO. Do I want PB to generate Java? No Do you want it to compile to the MSIL layer for .NET? I have no idea what that is so No. Do you think it should focus more on features for client server applications? Not necessarily client-server, but client-side Yes. Do you think it should incorporate more features to make web development easier? No, there are a ton of better web development tools, why would I choose PB. Is it important to you that PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume them) or does that not interest you in the least? Generate, No. Consume, Yes. One last reason why I don't think PB can make it on the server is that it can only work in EAServer. Thats enough to assure me that it will never be anything but a niche on the server. Even if EAServer makes it big time, the only people writting components for it will be old PB shops. -chris ps. Ok one last last thing. Java didn't make it to the client. Thats where I now see the gap. p.p.s. I also think someone should change the name. I've always thought PowerBuilder sounded dumb. Changing the name might help in re-inventing it. We could, of course, continue with the confusing Sybase name changing paradigm. For example, Adaptive Builder Enteprise or Enterprise Adaptive Power. "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message news:3c8e238d.7608760@199.93.177.77... > That subject line should get your attention. <g> > > I'm very pleased with the participation in this group. We've obviously > provided a well for a very thirsty group of developers! > > As you may or may not know, PB 9 is about to go into Beta and the > feature set has pretty much been frozen. I know a lot of these > requests are for very useful features and hopefully many will some day > be incorporated into PB. I don't know what can be done for PB 9 at > this point. Just don't want to falsely get people's hopes up. > > What I would like to do, is raise the discussion to a higher level of > abstraction. Instead of specifics (please feel free to continue to > post those too) I would like to get a feel for where you, as a PB > developer would like to see PowerBuilder go in the future. > > Do you want it to generate Java? Do you want it to compile to the MSIL > layer for .NET? Do you think it should focus more on features for > client server applications? Do you think it should incorporate more > features to make web development easier? Is it important to you that > PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume them) or does that > not interest you in the least? (These are just some ideas, I'd like to > hear others.) > > What do you think Sybase needs to do with PowerBuilder to make it > thrive and regain some of the glory it had a few years ago? > > I've read some of your messages about it being too late and I > understand the bitterness you may feel. Unfortunately I don't have a > time machine so I can't go back a few years and change Sybase's past > strategy with regard to PowerBuilder. We do have an opportunity now to > influence the direction that PB goes in and I'm asking for your ideas > to start that change now. > > Regards, > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
>Do others agree with Bill's comments? In your opinion Is PB unusable? >Does it have a horrible interface? No. It does not. I have just come through two months of serious attention to VB.net and though it is quite good and very slick, I would not say it is head shoulders above PB in terms of useablitlity. Obviously, the datawindow is much nicer in many respects, though, in my opinion, ADO.net is not as bad as it's made out to be either. It seems to me, however, that things are done in VB.net, seamlessly, that require the PFC in PowerBuilder. All of it's usefull ness not withstanding, I have always felt like the PFC was a platform on top of a platform, and too hard to learn. For simple client/server things, the PFC put a level of complexity into the mix that beginners just aren't going to use. There! I said it. I used the "B" word. But "beginner: is not a word to be ashamed of. It's like Rock and Roll and Clasical music. Bobby Bare used to sing, "bought me a guitar, put it in tune, learned how to play in a day or so". If you had to wait until you knew everything that classical artists know to make music, there would be no Rock and Roll. If you scare the beginners away with unneeded complexity, they'll never learn to use your tool. I'm not saying cheapen the tool, or make it less robust, but get away from, where ever possible, unneeded complexity. VB and ASA make a great combination for plain ole pure client server. Sureley there's a way to sell that and make the product profitable. There is no good tool for Client/Server right now. Perhaps Delphi, but I worry about Borland's stability. Perhaps PB, but unless something changes how long can they keep producing the product. Paradox and Access don't have the horse power. VS.net has left the client/server market for the time being. Right now, VB.net is a Web building tool. MS will come back to client/server soon enough, they'll be forced to, but in the meantime there is, in my opinion, room for a product like PB to capture the market that VB 6 has left behind.
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
>Do you think it should focus more on features for >client server applications. Yes. Client Server. Client Server. If you can do the other, fine, but in my opinion, for my needs, it all has to rest on good client server.
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
One of the things you could do to help PB's future is to get the very big corporations out of the newsgroups.. I can't speak for everyone, and I am not telling how it is, only how it seems in this part of the country. Our user group (now dead) seemed to be like one big adverstiment for big companies in and out of town. We did very little by way of how the common man, an ordinary programmer, might do things. Hope I haven't been unfair to anyone, but this is how it seemed to me.
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Ok guys I gotta jump in here... At the begining I too thought PFC was just too hard. We as a team made a decision to use the PFC to its limits (vs trying to write everything ourselves). I had heard trying to code your own resizing for instance wasn't fun. I have to say after spending about 6 months with PFC, it's slowly getting easier. The pfc examples app has really come in handy. Our team leader has so far been able to take an example he can use, manipulate a few things and it's off and running. Sure, you gotta dig in it to find out what all the behind the scenes stuff is doing. Honestly folks, at the rate we're going, we may end up being the poster children for PFC. I think the hardest thing to get used to first is how the PFC structured, then slowly once you learn the structure, it gets easier to lookup things like the various services. In comparison to VB, sure you have to work at it (I still read the PFC refs quite a bit). I agree that if you needed to write something in less than a year, I'm sure PFC may not be your first choice. Ours is a multi-year thing so this first year for us to get our templates in order, environment, SCC procedures, etc. Now correct me if I'm wrong but I think in VB when you're viewing the events, I think they're shown in event order? Does PB have a way to show something like that? That's always been tricky for me sometimes, what fires when. The interface isn't horrible..could use a tweaking here and there... Ok.. off the soapbox :-) Evita "Woody" <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message news:xgl#7LfyBHA.204@forums.sybase.com... > >Do others agree with Bill's comments? In your opinion Is PB unusable? > >Does it have a horrible interface? > > No. It does not. > > I have just come through two months of serious attention to VB.net and > though it is quite good and very slick, I would not say it is head shoulders > above PB in terms of useablitlity. Obviously, the datawindow is much nicer > in many respects, though, in my opinion, ADO.net is not as bad as it's made > out to be either. > > It seems to me, however, that things are done in VB.net, seamlessly, that > require the PFC in PowerBuilder. All of it's usefull ness not withstanding, > I have always felt like the PFC was a platform on top of a platform, and too > hard to learn. For simple client/server things, the PFC put a level of > complexity into the mix that beginners just aren't going to use. > > There! I said it. I used the "B" word. But "beginner: is not a word to be > ashamed of. It's like Rock and Roll and Clasical music. Bobby Bare used to > sing, "bought me a guitar, put it in tune, learned how to play in a day or > so". If you had to wait until you knew everything that classical artists > know to make music, there would be no Rock and Roll. If you scare the > beginners away with unneeded complexity, they'll never learn to use your > tool. I'm not saying cheapen the tool, or make it less robust, but get away > from, where ever possible, unneeded complexity. VB and ASA make a great > combination for plain ole pure client server. Sureley there's a way to sell > that and make the product profitable. > > There is no good tool for Client/Server right now. Perhaps Delphi, but I > worry about Borland's stability. Perhaps PB, but unless something changes > how long can they keep producing the product. Paradox and Access don't have > the horse power. VS.net has left the client/server market for the time > being. Right now, VB.net is a Web building tool. MS will come back to > client/server soon enough, they'll be forced to, but in the meantime there > is, in my opinion, room for a product like PB to capture the market that VB > 6 has left behind. > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Hope by responding as I do that you feel alright about it. Your opinion is as valid as mine. That said.. What happens if a year from now you have to replace a man in your project. One of the selling points of the PFC was that you could get everyone to do things the same way. Good idea, but, my understanding is that only and 30% or less of the PB community know the PFC. It's hard enough to find a PB person. What about a PFC, PB person?
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
>Do you want it to generate Java? No, unless you can explain how that helps me. >Do you want it to compile to the MSIL layer for .NET? No, unless you can explain how that helps me. >Do you think it should focus more on features for >client server applications? Yes. I think the other posts speak for themselves. >Do you think it should incorporate more features to make web development easier? Well, maybe, if we can get a pricing model that makes sense for us. We never even looked at EAServer because we sell our package at a price so low that the EAServer cost would literally eat up most of the profits. PB web apps are tied to EAServer, which is OK if we can sell our package and make money. If we can't do that, it doesn't matter how good it is. We are still using Active Server Pages for our web package, and you get what you pay for. What I'd really like is the power to develop a *huge* web application with a RAD tool. Just like developing Client Server is with PowerBuilder -- you just can't beat the programmer productivity! I don't like *any* web development tool on the market today. Active Server Pages is way slower to develop than PB. And, it's hard to maintain too. I still use Notepad primarily, and I'll bet that's true for many. Seems to me, most ASP applications are pretty small. We want to port our whole application to the web, but that's a "bet the company" proposal. For now, I feel comfortable betting the company on Client Server and Sybase's PowerBuilder. But truthfully, the 8.0 user interface still could use some work. Although it has improved in many ways (multiple DB connections, Workspaces, etc), there is still some polishing needed. But bottom line, I'm more productive there than in any other tool I've seen (and I shop!) And, for people who really have to have everything on the intranet, we are successfully using Terminal Services and Citrix. That has let us buy time before doing a huge rewrite to the web. Trends change. A few years ago, some wanted our application to be written entirely in Java. Now some want everything on the web, and to have a Unix-based application server. Oh, and by the way, it has to connect to our standard database, whatever that is now. We can't rewrite our package every time a trend changes. It's just too big. The cost to re-write and test, then write a new manual is too high. We have to keep going with Client Server. And Client-Server has a much better user interface than most web applications anyway. And, it works! To thrive and regain glory? I think the answers are right here in the user group. The main answer is Marketing. You have to get this tool into the hands of students and teachers. You have to build courses and/or books and make them available to people who aren't devoting their entire lives to PB (in other words, to people who aren't CPI's.) Wine and dine your remaining PowerBuilder User Group presidents. These people work *so* hard and are your greatest fans. Help user groups, even finance them and set up a rotation system so you don't have just one person doing all the work. Maybe monthly meetings don't make sense any more, so set up new groups with three meetings a year (offset from the annual Tech Wave). I'd like to know more about Team PowerSoft. These folks are *so* helpful on the newsgroups. What does Sybase do for these folks? How does one join? I spend many years teaching at UC Irvine and running the Orange County PB User Group, and did get some support from Sybase. More would have been better. Give people a reason to be a user group president. Put a link to the user groups on your home page, not buried 5 levels down. Post a picture of the person, link to their home page, glorify these people. Another big issue is to meet people's rising expectations. People are OK with PB being a Client-Server tool. But, they are no longer happy with working around "beginner bugs". The two which must be squashed are: Compiler must include all objects into EXE, and when adding a new column to an updatable datawindow, the new column should be updatable. Beginners need to have a good "out of the box experience". One of PB's strengths has always been that its Sample Application was far superior to VB. Well, that Sample App has hardly changed in a long time. Time for an update. It needs 2 killers applications: Screen Customization, and the Rich Text column which works with MS Word. Finally, the DataWindow, which was the king control of all time, must be modernized to meet today's higher expectations. Grids in particular must be improved, and there are many little suggestions. One more thing. I think Sybase is too fond of "big features", to the detriment of "little features". Compiling to JAVA is viewed as a "big feature" -- something sellable. I would rather have 30 "little features" -- such as improving the Find, than one "big feature". Just my humble opinion. ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
And there is the rub. I agree that if the vendor doesn't want you to, then you're SOL. I guess that is where some slick corporate to corporate marketing needs to be done. Maybe playing the "we'll all get crushed by the Microsoft monoply" card? "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message news:3c8e325a.11398129@199.93.177.77... > On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:36:30 -0500, "Daniel Coppersmith" > <daniel@N.0.S.P.A.M_infrontsoftware.com> wrote: > > >I would like to see native PowerBuilder component support in other > >application servers such as WebSphere. > > > But doesn't that application server vendor have to provide some sort > of support for running the PB VM? Sybase can only do so much. If IBM > doesn't allow you to call PB components (or initialize the PBVM from > WebSphere like EAServer does now) how would it be workable? > > >Right now the biggest thing I hear when I suggest PB components is "We don't > >want to be tied to EA Server". > > > >PB generating Java would be nice, but I am afraid that would be full of bugs > >and nuances that may not be worth while. > > I tend to agree with you. I wouldn't want to see the issues that arose > when they added compiled (C++ code) happen again. > > Regards, > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > > > > > > >"Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message > >news:3c8e238d.7608760@199.93.177.77... > >> That subject line should get your attention. <g> > >> > >> I'm very pleased with the participation in this group. We've obviously > >> provided a well for a very thirsty group of developers! > >> > >> As you may or may not know, PB 9 is about to go into Beta and the > >> feature set has pretty much been frozen. I know a lot of these > >> requests are for very useful features and hopefully many will some day > >> be incorporated into PB. I don't know what can be done for PB 9 at > >> this point. Just don't want to falsely get people's hopes up. > >> > >> What I would like to do, is raise the discussion to a higher level of > >> abstraction. Instead of specifics (please feel free to continue to > >> post those too) I would like to get a feel for where you, as a PB > >> developer would like to see PowerBuilder go in the future. > >> > >> Do you want it to generate Java? Do you want it to compile to the MSIL > >> layer for .NET? Do you think it should focus more on features for > >> client server applications? Do you think it should incorporate more > >> features to make web development easier? Is it important to you that > >> PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume them) or does that > >> not interest you in the least? (These are just some ideas, I'd like to > >> hear others.) > >> > >> What do you think Sybase needs to do with PowerBuilder to make it > >> thrive and regain some of the glory it had a few years ago? > >> > >> I've read some of your messages about it being too late and I > >> understand the bitterness you may feel. Unfortunately I don't have a > >> time machine so I can't go back a few years and change Sybase's past > >> strategy with regard to PowerBuilder. We do have an opportunity now to > >> influence the direction that PB goes in and I'm asking for your ideas > >> to start that change now. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > >> > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Hey Woody, Nope, don't mind a bit..That's what's cool around here - we agree to disagree :-) Whether we'd all use PFC or not, there's always gonna be a learning curve for a new developer coming in. In our case we started with none of us ever touching PFC, 1 experienced in PB in general and another experienced starting in PB6. I and another knew zip. A newbie would at least 3 bodies to ask instead of just the manuals. PFC is really just a library of code Sybase wrote to give developers objects they could use. Look at VB - it's just components written by Microsoft to give developers objects they can use. How many actually try to figure out what the listbox object(internally) does after plopping it on a form? Set some properties and you're done with it. Like I said, I never said learning PFC was a piece of cake (we were fortunate to get the time). It would be nice if maybe there was an easier to way to learn PFC, but that's another story Evita "Woody" <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message news:m#g#2efyBHA.333@forums.sybase.com... > Hope by responding as I do that you feel alright about it. Your opinion is > as valid as mine. That said.. > > What happens if a year from now you have to replace a man in your project. > One of the selling points of the PFC was that you could get everyone to do > things the same way. Good idea, but, my understanding is that only and 30% > or less of the PB community know the PFC. It's hard enough to find a PB > person. What about a PFC, PB person? > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I respectively disagree here. I was able to leverage my PB knowledge and create a robust, multi functional web application in very short order - 3 months. The power of the datawindow (actually, datastores) are amazing and the ability to use them to create dynamic web pages tied to a database is a huge advantage! Like it or not (and 18 months ago I was in the "hate it a lot" camp), the web (intranet) is a driving force in development. A tool that only does client/server is severely limiting it's market - something PB doesn't really have room to do. A tool that does both is a great selling point - buy this tool because no matter what architecture you choose, it will work.... D "Chris" <schtoo@schtoo.com> wrote in message news:A1OLDJfyBHA.318@forums.sybase.com... > My honest opinion: > > PB should stick to being a client-side development tool. If I want to have > a partitioned app with different tiers I may want to use PowerBuilder on the > client side but I don't think I would ever choose PowerBuilder for the > server side. I don't think the PowerBuilder language will ever become a > serious contender on the server. It can't compete against Java, C++, ..Net. > > One of the things I think is looong overdue and I heard was finally coming > about in 9 is the ability for PB to interact with app servers other than > EAServer. I think Sybase should go about making PB work as seemlessly as > possible with EAServer, WebSphere, WebLogic, .Net. I want these connections > to work like database connections do (for the most part). That is I want to > be able to write my clientside code without concern about what the backend > is. > > I think PB needs to focus more on GUI functionality. Some people have said > that its not to hard to point out a PowerBuilder app. Thats because PB is > not pretty. I think PB needs to get pretty to compete on the clientside. > Modern visual functionality and GUI components. > > The problem with all this is that the datawindow doesn't really fit in with > this. I think the datawindow needs to be reworked so you can visually > design a datawindow with an object as a source. This object would most > likely be a component on your server. Once you partition your app, it seems > illogical that you should still be designing your datawindow against the > database. If you are architecting correctly, the datawindow should be > designed by what the component is passing to the client, not the database. > IMO. > > Do I want PB to generate Java? > No > > Do you want it to compile to the MSIL layer for .NET? > I have no idea what that is so No. > > Do you think it should focus more on features for client server > applications? > Not necessarily client-server, but client-side Yes. > > Do you think it should incorporate more features to make web development > easier? > No, there are a ton of better web development tools, why would I choose PB. > > Is it important to you that PowerBuilder can generate web services (or > consume them) or does that not interest you in the least? > Generate, No. Consume, Yes. > > One last reason why I don't think PB can make it on the server is that it > can only work in EAServer. Thats enough to assure me that it will never be > anything but a niche on the server. Even if EAServer makes it big time, the > only people writting components for it will be old PB shops. > > -chris > > ps. Ok one last last thing. Java didn't make it to the client. Thats > where I now see the gap. > > p.p.s. I also think someone should change the name. I've always thought > PowerBuilder sounded dumb. Changing the name might help in re-inventing it. > We could, of course, continue with the confusing Sybase name changing > paradigm. For example, Adaptive Builder Enteprise or Enterprise Adaptive > Power. > > "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message > news:3c8e238d.7608760@199.93.177.77... > > That subject line should get your attention. <g> > > > > I'm very pleased with the participation in this group. We've obviously > > provided a well for a very thirsty group of developers! > > > > As you may or may not know, PB 9 is about to go into Beta and the > > feature set has pretty much been frozen. I know a lot of these > > requests are for very useful features and hopefully many will some day > > be incorporated into PB. I don't know what can be done for PB 9 at > > this point. Just don't want to falsely get people's hopes up. > > > > What I would like to do, is raise the discussion to a higher level of > > abstraction. Instead of specifics (please feel free to continue to > > post those too) I would like to get a feel for where you, as a PB > > developer would like to see PowerBuilder go in the future. > > > > Do you want it to generate Java? Do you want it to compile to the MSIL > > layer for .NET? Do you think it should focus more on features for > > client server applications? Do you think it should incorporate more > > features to make web development easier? Is it important to you that > > PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume them) or does that > > not interest you in the least? (These are just some ideas, I'd like to > > hear others.) > > > > What do you think Sybase needs to do with PowerBuilder to make it > > thrive and regain some of the glory it had a few years ago? > > > > I've read some of your messages about it being too late and I > > understand the bitterness you may feel. Unfortunately I don't have a > > time machine so I can't go back a few years and change Sybase's past > > strategy with regard to PowerBuilder. We do have an opportunity now to > > influence the direction that PB goes in and I'm asking for your ideas > > to start that change now. > > > > Regards, > > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
It would seem that the two are related, though. If it's going to support other app servers, it's going to have to compile to Java (or perhaps let you script in Java). I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for IBM or BEA to support the PB VM, but if PB could create java objects, it should be the end of the issue. On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 16:55:43 GMT, in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion Dave Fish [Team Sybase] <dfish@sybase.com> wrote: >On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:36:30 -0500, "Daniel Coppersmith" ><daniel@N.0.S.P.A.M_infrontsoftware.com> wrote: > >>I would like to see native PowerBuilder component support in other >>application servers such as WebSphere. >> >But doesn't that application server vendor have to provide some sort >of support for running the PB VM? Sybase can only do so much. If IBM >doesn't allow you to call PB components (or initialize the PBVM from >WebSphere like EAServer does now) how would it be workable? > >>Right now the biggest thing I hear when I suggest PB components is "We don't >>want to be tied to EA Server". >> >>PB generating Java would be nice, but I am afraid that would be full of bugs >>and nuances that may not be worth while. > >I tend to agree with you. I wouldn't want to see the issues that arose >when they added compiled (C++ code) happen again. > >Regards, >Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > >> >> >>"Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message >>news:3c8e238d.7608760@199.93.177.77... >>> That subject line should get your attention. <g> >>> >>> I'm very pleased with the participation in this group. We've obviously >>> provided a well for a very thirsty group of developers! >>> >>> As you may or may not know, PB 9 is about to go into Beta and the >>> feature set has pretty much been frozen. I know a lot of these >>> requests are for very useful features and hopefully many will some day >>> be incorporated into PB. I don't know what can be done for PB 9 at >>> this point. Just don't want to falsely get people's hopes up. >>> >>> What I would like to do, is raise the discussion to a higher level of >>> abstraction. Instead of specifics (please feel free to continue to >>> post those too) I would like to get a feel for where you, as a PB >>> developer would like to see PowerBuilder go in the future. >>> >>> Do you want it to generate Java? Do you want it to compile to the MSIL >>> layer for .NET? Do you think it should focus more on features for >>> client server applications? Do you think it should incorporate more >>> features to make web development easier? Is it important to you that >>> PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume them) or does that >>> not interest you in the least? (These are just some ideas, I'd like to >>> hear others.) >>> >>> What do you think Sybase needs to do with PowerBuilder to make it >>> thrive and regain some of the glory it had a few years ago? >>> >>> I've read some of your messages about it being too late and I >>> understand the bitterness you may feel. Unfortunately I don't have a >>> time machine so I can't go back a few years and change Sybase's past >>> strategy with regard to PowerBuilder. We do have an opportunity now to >>> influence the direction that PB goes in and I'm asking for your ideas >>> to start that change now. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Dave Fish [TeamSybase] >>> >> >> > Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] http://www.teamsybase.com http://www.needhim.org ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
What is involved with an app server supporting the VM? (I ask this out of complete ignorance). Would it be a lot of work for IBM to interact with the PBVM? If Sybase supplied the VM to them, isn't it a just a bunch of CORBA api calls to the VM? Or is that a huge over simplification? D "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> wrote in message news:rxyYAofyBHA.304@forums.sybase.com... > It would seem that the two are related, though. If it's going to support > other app servers, it's going to have to compile to Java (or perhaps let > you script in Java). I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for IBM or BEA to > support the PB VM, but if PB could create java objects, it should be the > end of the issue. > > On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 16:55:43 GMT, > in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion > Dave Fish [Team Sybase] <dfish@sybase.com> wrote: > >On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:36:30 -0500, "Daniel Coppersmith" > ><daniel@N.0.S.P.A.M_infrontsoftware.com> wrote: > > > >>I would like to see native PowerBuilder component support in other > >>application servers such as WebSphere. > >> > >But doesn't that application server vendor have to provide some sort > >of support for running the PB VM? Sybase can only do so much. If IBM > >doesn't allow you to call PB components (or initialize the PBVM from > >WebSphere like EAServer does now) how would it be workable? > > > >>Right now the biggest thing I hear when I suggest PB components is "We don't > >>want to be tied to EA Server". > >> > >>PB generating Java would be nice, but I am afraid that would be full of bugs > >>and nuances that may not be worth while. > > > >I tend to agree with you. I wouldn't want to see the issues that arose > >when they added compiled (C++ code) happen again. > > > >Regards, > >Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > > > >> > >> > >>"Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message > >>news:3c8e238d.7608760@199.93.177.77... > >>> That subject line should get your attention. <g> > >>> > >>> I'm very pleased with the participation in this group. We've obviously > >>> provided a well for a very thirsty group of developers! > >>> > >>> As you may or may not know, PB 9 is about to go into Beta and the > >>> feature set has pretty much been frozen. I know a lot of these > >>> requests are for very useful features and hopefully many will some day > >>> be incorporated into PB. I don't know what can be done for PB 9 at > >>> this point. Just don't want to falsely get people's hopes up. > >>> > >>> What I would like to do, is raise the discussion to a higher level of > >>> abstraction. Instead of specifics (please feel free to continue to > >>> post those too) I would like to get a feel for where you, as a PB > >>> developer would like to see PowerBuilder go in the future. > >>> > >>> Do you want it to generate Java? Do you want it to compile to the MSIL > >>> layer for .NET? Do you think it should focus more on features for > >>> client server applications? Do you think it should incorporate more > >>> features to make web development easier? Is it important to you that > >>> PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume them) or does that > >>> not interest you in the least? (These are just some ideas, I'd like to > >>> hear others.) > >>> > >>> What do you think Sybase needs to do with PowerBuilder to make it > >>> thrive and regain some of the glory it had a few years ago? > >>> > >>> I've read some of your messages about it being too late and I > >>> understand the bitterness you may feel. Unfortunately I don't have a > >>> time machine so I can't go back a few years and change Sybase's past > >>> strategy with regard to PowerBuilder. We do have an opportunity now to > >>> influence the direction that PB goes in and I'm asking for your ideas > >>> to start that change now. > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > >>> > >> > >> > > > > Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] > http://www.teamsybase.com > http://www.needhim.org > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I must go along with Daniel. The application I work on is C/S with a rich GUI for a vertical market. Most of the customers are medium sized businesses, and management has decided that requiring them to license and support an additional server is not a marketable option. Therefore, we will be using the Oracle application server that goes with the database server, and the Web front end is being done without PowerBuilder. To us, any web features that require EAS are irrelevant. I find it difficult to believe that it is impossible to write some sort of plug-in that would allow PB components to live in any given application server. The PBVM should already exist, since it needs to be available to support EAS under multiple operating systems. *Real* programmers know that "bits is bits" - there exists a way to implement any well defined data manipulation. Notice that I didn't say the "way" would be easy or elegant ;-). Doesn't J2EE define the interfaces for a component that can run on any compliant server? Dave Fish [Team Sybase] wrote in message <3c8e325a.11398129@199.93.177.77>... >On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:36:30 -0500, "Daniel Coppersmith" ><daniel@N.0.S.P.A.M_infrontsoftware.com> wrote: > >>I would like to see native PowerBuilder component support in other >>application servers such as WebSphere. >> >But doesn't that application server vendor have to provide some sort >of support for running the PB VM? Sybase can only do so much. If IBM >doesn't allow you to call PB components (or initialize the PBVM from >WebSphere like EAServer does now) how would it be workable? > >>Right now the biggest thing I hear when I suggest PB components is "We don't >>want to be tied to EA Server". >> >>PB generating Java would be nice, but I am afraid that would be full of bugs >>and nuances that may not be worth while. > >I tend to agree with you. I wouldn't want to see the issues that arose >when they added compiled (C++ code) happen again. > >Regards, >Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > >> >> >>"Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message >>news:3c8e238d.7608760@199.93.177.77... >>> That subject line should get your attention. <g> >>> >>> I'm very pleased with the participation in this group. We've obviously >>> provided a well for a very thirsty group of developers! >>> >>> As you may or may not know, PB 9 is about to go into Beta and the >>> feature set has pretty much been frozen. I know a lot of these >>> requests are for very useful features and hopefully many will some day >>> be incorporated into PB. I don't know what can be done for PB 9 at >>> this point. Just don't want to falsely get people's hopes up. >>> >>> What I would like to do, is raise the discussion to a higher level of >>> abstraction. Instead of specifics (please feel free to continue to >>> post those too) I would like to get a feel for where you, as a PB >>> developer would like to see PowerBuilder go in the future. >>> >>> Do you want it to generate Java? Do you want it to compile to the MSIL >>> layer for .NET? Do you think it should focus more on features for >>> client server applications? Do you think it should incorporate more >>> features to make web development easier? Is it important to you that >>> PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume them) or does that >>> not interest you in the least? (These are just some ideas, I'd like to >>> hear others.) >>> >>> What do you think Sybase needs to do with PowerBuilder to make it >>> thrive and regain some of the glory it had a few years ago? >>> >>> I've read some of your messages about it being too late and I >>> understand the bitterness you may feel. Unfortunately I don't have a >>> time machine so I can't go back a few years and change Sybase's past >>> strategy with regard to PowerBuilder. We do have an opportunity now to >>> influence the direction that PB goes in and I'm asking for your ideas >>> to start that change now. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Dave Fish [TeamSybase] >>> >> >> >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 13:53:15 -0500, in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion VictorReinhart <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote: >I'd like to know more about Team PowerSoft. These folks are *so* helpful on >the newsgroups. What does Sybase do for these folks? How does one join? http://www.teamsybase.com Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] http://www.teamsybase.com http://www.needhim.org ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
>To thrive and regain glory? I think the answers are right here in the user >group. The main answer is Marketing I too think marketing is key but I would take a different tack. You can't even buy PowerBuilder in a regular computer store like CompUSA. If it can be bought at all it has to be special ordered. Why not do adds in PC week. The comman man, and mere mortals, have to know about the product. Sybase is so classy in other ways. The tech support on line is great and they are obviously so professional in other ways. It's just that there is zero name recognition with regard to PowerBuilder. If they would advertise it as the best client/server tool on the market, it would be hard to refute. There's nothing other than Borland right now that fills that nitch. VB.net can't be purchased with a report writer for less than $1,200.00. Delphi is easily purchased at most big computer stores. By the way, tech support for how to make Crystal reports work with the integrated VS.net environment is allmost nill. There is no MS newsgroup for this that is monitored by Crystal and only a few messages a day are passing through Crystal's internal news group. My understanding is that Crystal has pretty good support if you are willing to pay (again a big corporation thing) but if you want any support like we have on these newsgroup, good luck. A lot of good that does a developer who does not have a several thousand dollar technical support budget.
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 16:09:20 GMT, in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion Dave Fish [Team Sybase] <dfish@sybase.com> wrote: >Do you want it to generate Java? That would be important if we want to be supported by other app servers than EAServer. I can't help wondering if PowerJ shouldn't be used instead in those situations though. The one thing that VS.Net does is makes the choice of a scripting language pretty much irrelevant. Perhaps PowerJ and PowerBuilder could be 'mergered' in such a way that we could choose to script in PowerScript or in Java, and if we scripted in Java we could be supported by other app servers..... >Do you want it to compile to the MSIL layer for .NET? That would certainly make things interesting, but would not be a major selling point for me. >Do you think it should focus more on features for client server applications? As far as client/server goes, I'd like to see a lot of what is already provided fixed up. New RTF control, support for some of the newer Windows GUI features, most of the other stuff mentioned in the other threads. >Do you think it should incorporate more features to make web development >easier? Not a big issue. I'm afraid my favorite web development tool is WordPad. Everything else seems to get in the way more than help. >Is it important to you that PowerBuilder can generate web services (or >consume them) or does that not interest you in the least? Both are important for me. However, PB should do for web services what the datawindow did for client/server database interaction. If I have to do a whole lot of low-level stuff to make it work, I might as well be doing it directly in java. >What do you think Sybase needs to do with PowerBuilder to make it >thrive and regain some of the glory it had a few years ago? Three things: Marketing, marketing, and marketing. Get some technical folks out in the field with the sales reps, and do some hands-on, apples versus apples comparisions between PB and the competition. Show people first hand why PB is a better product, don't just talk about it. Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] http://www.teamsybase.com http://www.needhim.org ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I believe you mean to suggest getting them out of the "user groups". As far as that goes I think they are as much a player in this as anyone is. Even more so in that their involvement in marketing their wares gets the attention of the corporate customer as well as the "vendor" (in this case, Sybase). The user group, however, might be a little more aggressive in providing the "common man" with resources via a web-site and newsletter. The "content" of what a user group provides to it's members can be augmented in many ways in addition to the "pizza-and-soda" meetings which I agree are almost pure marketing presentation. But I think those presentations are integral to the synergy of Vendor (Sybase) - Third-party marketer - User. Their advertising dollars also translate into sales and generate the PB footprint on the pages of the material the decision makers (our bosses) read day-to-day. Their demise (or discontinuation of support for PB) has been instrumental in continuing the decreasing market share PB has in the corporate world. My 2 cents. -EGM Woody <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message news:DzlZ8RfyBHA.204@forums.sybase.com... > One of the things you could do to help PB's future is to get the very big > corporations out of the newsgroups.. > > I can't speak for everyone, and I am not telling how it is, only how it > seems in this part of the country. Our user group (now dead) seemed to be > like one big adverstiment for big companies in and out of town. We did very > little by way of how the common man, an ordinary programmer, might do > things. > > Hope I haven't been unfair to anyone, but this is how it seemed to me. > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I don't know. I can't help but think that what killed the user groups was well supported newsgroups. What did you go to a user group for? I went to learn about new stuff, to interact with other developers, and for free pizza and soda <g>. It seems to me that the first two are being met here, and I can participate as my own time schedule allows. They could be augmented a bit, I'd like to see online presentations that allow for question and answer sesions (the online equivalent of the meeting presentations). Not just from the Sybase folks and the big corporations, and but the average Joe developer with something to show as well. Perhaps they could be recorded and made available for later viewing. But, aside from not being able to scarf down on free virtual pizza and soda, what else are we missing? On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:36:16 -0500, in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion Edward Muesch <emuesch@hotmail.com> wrote: >I believe you mean to suggest getting them out of the "user groups". As far >as that goes I think they are as much a player in this as anyone is. Even >more so in that their involvement in marketing their wares gets the >attention of the corporate customer as well as the "vendor" (in this case, >Sybase). The user group, however, might be a little more aggressive in >providing the "common man" with resources via a web-site and newsletter. >The "content" of what a user group provides to it's members can be augmented >in many ways in addition to the "pizza-and-soda" meetings which I agree are >almost pure marketing presentation. But I think those presentations are >integral to the synergy of Vendor (Sybase) - Third-party marketer - User. >Their advertising dollars also translate into sales and generate the PB >footprint on the pages of the material the decision makers (our bosses) read >day-to-day. Their demise (or discontinuation of support for PB) has been >instrumental in continuing the decreasing market share PB has in the >corporate world. > >My 2 cents. > >-EGM > >Woody <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message >news:DzlZ8RfyBHA.204@forums.sybase.com... >> One of the things you could do to help PB's future is to get the very big >> corporations out of the newsgroups.. >> >> I can't speak for everyone, and I am not telling how it is, only how it >> seems in this part of the country. Our user group (now dead) seemed to be >> like one big adverstiment for big companies in and out of town. We did >very >> little by way of how the common man, an ordinary programmer, might do >> things. >> >> Hope I haven't been unfair to anyone, but this is how it seemed to me. >> >> > > Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] http://www.teamsybase.com http://www.needhim.org ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I love the virtual world as much as anyone, but there's no substitute for face-to-face. Networking with people in your geographical area has it's benefits as well. There's nothing like an internal reference in the corporation you're trying to land a contract in. You can get this from newsgroups too but the numbers make it a lot less likely. And Sybase doesn't give away free stuff here either. <g> -EGM Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> wrote in message news:5QmbBjgyBHA.304@forums.sybase.com... > I don't know. I can't help but think that what killed the user groups was > well supported newsgroups. What did you go to a user group for? I went to > learn about new stuff, to interact with other developers, and for free pizza > and soda <g>. It seems to me that the first two are being met here, and I > can participate as my own time schedule allows. They could be augmented a bit, > I'd like to see online presentations that allow for question and answer > sesions (the online equivalent of the meeting presentations). Not just from > the Sybase folks and the big corporations, and but the average Joe developer > with something to show as well. Perhaps they could be recorded and made > available for later viewing. > > But, aside from not being able to scarf down on free virtual pizza and soda, > what else are we missing? > > On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:36:16 -0500, > in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion > Edward Muesch <emuesch@hotmail.com> wrote: > >I believe you mean to suggest getting them out of the "user groups". As far > >as that goes I think they are as much a player in this as anyone is. Even > >more so in that their involvement in marketing their wares gets the > >attention of the corporate customer as well as the "vendor" (in this case, > >Sybase). The user group, however, might be a little more aggressive in > >providing the "common man" with resources via a web-site and newsletter. > >The "content" of what a user group provides to it's members can be augmented > >in many ways in addition to the "pizza-and-soda" meetings which I agree are > >almost pure marketing presentation. But I think those presentations are > >integral to the synergy of Vendor (Sybase) - Third-party marketer - User. > >Their advertising dollars also translate into sales and generate the PB > >footprint on the pages of the material the decision makers (our bosses) read > >day-to-day. Their demise (or discontinuation of support for PB) has been > >instrumental in continuing the decreasing market share PB has in the > >corporate world. > > > >My 2 cents. > > > >-EGM > > > >Woody <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message > >news:DzlZ8RfyBHA.204@forums.sybase.com... > >> One of the things you could do to help PB's future is to get the very big > >> corporations out of the newsgroups.. > >> > >> I can't speak for everyone, and I am not telling how it is, only how it > >> seems in this part of the country. Our user group (now dead) seemed to be > >> like one big adverstiment for big companies in and out of town. We did > >very > >> little by way of how the common man, an ordinary programmer, might do > >> things. > >> > >> Hope I haven't been unfair to anyone, but this is how it seemed to me. > >> > >> > > > > > > Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] > http://www.teamsybase.com > http://www.needhim.org > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
>I believe you mean to suggest getting them out of the "user groups Yes, that's what I meant. Not newsgroups. I understand what you're saying. We're all in this for something and it's not all out of the "goodness of our hearts". But since what we're talking about here are perceptions, to me Sybase seems to be all about Corporate Corporate Corporate and Big Corporate at that. If this had made this product successful I would say continue it, but as yet, it hasn't. Microsoft is obviously aware of corporations too but they think different where marketing is concerned. All that said, I think Sybase has a lot going for them. I'm "fer-em" not "agin-em". They're very classy in their own way, but very un-people oriented in their marketing. Very corporate oriented instead. Just my .02 cents worth. "Edward Muesch" <emuesch@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:XVfHqbgyBHA.322@forums.sybase.com... > I believe you mean to suggest getting them out of the "user groups". As far > as that goes I think they are as much a player in this as anyone is. Even > more so in that their involvement in marketing their wares gets the > attention of the corporate customer as well as the "vendor" (in this case, > Sybase). The user group, however, might be a little more aggressive in > providing the "common man" with resources via a web-site and newsletter. > The "content" of what a user group provides to it's members can be augmented > in many ways in addition to the "pizza-and-soda" meetings which I agree are > almost pure marketing presentation. But I think those presentations are > integral to the synergy of Vendor (Sybase) - Third-party marketer - User. > Their advertising dollars also translate into sales and generate the PB > footprint on the pages of the material the decision makers (our bosses) read > day-to-day. Their demise (or discontinuation of support for PB) has been > instrumental in continuing the decreasing market share PB has in the > corporate world. > > My 2 cents. > > -EGM > > Woody <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message > news:DzlZ8RfyBHA.204@forums.sybase.com... > > One of the things you could do to help PB's future is to get the very big > > corporations out of the newsgroups.. > > > > I can't speak for everyone, and I am not telling how it is, only how it > > seems in this part of the country. Our user group (now dead) seemed to be > > like one big adverstiment for big companies in and out of town. We did > very > > little by way of how the common man, an ordinary programmer, might do > > things. > > > > Hope I haven't been unfair to anyone, but this is how it seemed to me. > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I most certainly do not agree that PB should stick to being client-side. None of the languages you cite come close to being as productive for writing database aware business components. Of course, practically nobody outside of the inner circle knows this, which is indeed a problem for the long-term viability of the language. If one could use the language to create components on other app servers, and Sybase discovered marketing, it would be dynamite. But very, very big ifs, I admit. Mark Maslow "Chris" <schtoo@schtoo.com> wrote in message news:A1OLDJfyBHA.318@forums.sybase.com... > My honest opinion: > > PB should stick to being a client-side development tool. If I want to have > a partitioned app with different tiers I may want to use PowerBuilder on the > client side but I don't think I would ever choose PowerBuilder for the > server side. I don't think the PowerBuilder language will ever become a > serious contender on the server. It can't compete against Java, C++, ..Net. > > One of the things I think is looong overdue and I heard was finally coming > about in 9 is the ability for PB to interact with app servers other than > EAServer. I think Sybase should go about making PB work as seemlessly as > possible with EAServer, WebSphere, WebLogic, .Net. I want these connections > to work like database connections do (for the most part). That is I want to > be able to write my clientside code without concern about what the backend > is. > > I think PB needs to focus more on GUI functionality. Some people have said > that its not to hard to point out a PowerBuilder app. Thats because PB is > not pretty. I think PB needs to get pretty to compete on the clientside. > Modern visual functionality and GUI components. > > The problem with all this is that the datawindow doesn't really fit in with > this. I think the datawindow needs to be reworked so you can visually > design a datawindow with an object as a source. This object would most > likely be a component on your server. Once you partition your app, it seems > illogical that you should still be designing your datawindow against the > database. If you are architecting correctly, the datawindow should be > designed by what the component is passing to the client, not the database. > IMO. > > Do I want PB to generate Java? > No > > Do you want it to compile to the MSIL layer for .NET? > I have no idea what that is so No. > > Do you think it should focus more on features for client server > applications? > Not necessarily client-server, but client-side Yes. > > Do you think it should incorporate more features to make web development > easier? > No, there are a ton of better web development tools, why would I choose PB. > > Is it important to you that PowerBuilder can generate web services (or > consume them) or does that not interest you in the least? > Generate, No. Consume, Yes. > > One last reason why I don't think PB can make it on the server is that it > can only work in EAServer. Thats enough to assure me that it will never be > anything but a niche on the server. Even if EAServer makes it big time, the > only people writting components for it will be old PB shops. > > -chris > > ps. Ok one last last thing. Java didn't make it to the client. Thats > where I now see the gap. > > p.p.s. I also think someone should change the name. I've always thought > PowerBuilder sounded dumb. Changing the name might help in re-inventing it. > We could, of course, continue with the confusing Sybase name changing > paradigm. For example, Adaptive Builder Enteprise or Enterprise Adaptive > Power. > > "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message > news:3c8e238d.7608760@199.93.177.77... > > That subject line should get your attention. <g> > > > > I'm very pleased with the participation in this group. We've obviously > > provided a well for a very thirsty group of developers! > > > > As you may or may not know, PB 9 is about to go into Beta and the > > feature set has pretty much been frozen. I know a lot of these > > requests are for very useful features and hopefully many will some day > > be incorporated into PB. I don't know what can be done for PB 9 at > > this point. Just don't want to falsely get people's hopes up. > > > > What I would like to do, is raise the discussion to a higher level of > > abstraction. Instead of specifics (please feel free to continue to > > post those too) I would like to get a feel for where you, as a PB > > developer would like to see PowerBuilder go in the future. > > > > Do you want it to generate Java? Do you want it to compile to the MSIL > > layer for .NET? Do you think it should focus more on features for > > client server applications? Do you think it should incorporate more > > features to make web development easier? Is it important to you that > > PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume them) or does that > > not interest you in the least? (These are just some ideas, I'd like to > > hear others.) > > > > What do you think Sybase needs to do with PowerBuilder to make it > > thrive and regain some of the glory it had a few years ago? > > > > I've read some of your messages about it being too late and I > > understand the bitterness you may feel. Unfortunately I don't have a > > time machine so I can't go back a few years and change Sybase's past > > strategy with regard to PowerBuilder. We do have an opportunity now to > > influence the direction that PB goes in and I'm asking for your ideas > > to start that change now. > > > > Regards, > > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I went to ... to interact with other developers, That's the only reason I go to any user-group meeting. That and to find out who's doing what with the particular product in my market. Maybe there will be something that will generate some business for me. Maybe I'll have something to be of service to others. maybe there will be others who can help me or a client with something we're doing. We all need to know who the local players are.
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I read a post a few days ago from Roy Kiesler that Raj Nathan said that .NET support would be included in PowerBuilder 9.0. I'm assuming that this is certainly not happening since you're asking these sorts of questions now? Secondly, I think the biggest area where PowerBuilder could fill a void is by becoming THE client-side for J2EE applications. I mean PowerBuilder has always been about the DataWindow, and I frankly don't see how the DataWindows fits in at all in a well architected multi-tier development model. I welcome someone to explain to me how I'm wrong on that one, because that is currently an area of confusion for me since I don't use the DataWindow. But what I'm getting at is PowerBuilder needs a new niche. I personally see a void as far as tools to help easily develop traditional graphical user interfaces for J2EE applications. I'm a big fan of Java, which is what I do a majority of my development in, but frankly I'm not a fan of Java on the client. If Sybase could provide a stellar environment for building an UI that could talk to any J2EE application server I think that might be an area where it could excel. Sybase could do this as a .NET language or as it is today with the PBVM. I also think it is absolutely critical that PowerBuilder continue to sport tight integration with EAServer. This is the ONLY migration path that PowerBuilder shops have to take third client-server applications to the three-tier model. If this support goes away, those shops are going to be forced to simply recode everything in a different environment and no one wants to do that. Lastly, I think it is important that PowerBuilder continue to support the traditional client-server development model. Frankly, in many situations n-tier is complete overkill. If you need to build a departmental application with a traditional UI, then PowerBuilder does the job pretty well. "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message news:3c8e238d.7608760@199.93.177.77... > That subject line should get your attention. <g> > > I'm very pleased with the participation in this group. We've obviously > provided a well for a very thirsty group of developers! > > As you may or may not know, PB 9 is about to go into Beta and the > feature set has pretty much been frozen. I know a lot of these > requests are for very useful features and hopefully many will some day > be incorporated into PB. I don't know what can be done for PB 9 at > this point. Just don't want to falsely get people's hopes up. > > What I would like to do, is raise the discussion to a higher level of > abstraction. Instead of specifics (please feel free to continue to > post those too) I would like to get a feel for where you, as a PB > developer would like to see PowerBuilder go in the future. > > Do you want it to generate Java? Do you want it to compile to the MSIL > layer for .NET? Do you think it should focus more on features for > client server applications? Do you think it should incorporate more > features to make web development easier? Is it important to you that > PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume them) or does that > not interest you in the least? (These are just some ideas, I'd like to > hear others.) > > What do you think Sybase needs to do with PowerBuilder to make it > thrive and regain some of the glory it had a few years ago? > > I've read some of your messages about it being too late and I > understand the bitterness you may feel. Unfortunately I don't have a > time machine so I can't go back a few years and change Sybase's past > strategy with regard to PowerBuilder. We do have an opportunity now to > influence the direction that PB goes in and I'm asking for your ideas > to start that change now. > > Regards, > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I believe you mean to suggest that that was your .02 dollars worth <g> Free PB Desktop with limited Web Datawindow. Place limitations that wouldn't stop the little guy but only prevent the Corporate client from being able to use it. Do this correctly and advertise the s--t out of it and revenue loss might not even come to be, but watch the market share soar... slowly at first but there is a history here, it's not a new product. So the marketing model is different and the market-share wouldn't just dry up once a price is placed back on it. The buzz would be enormous with Sybase lining the revenue streams (through advertising) of those who could help with the "oh gee, what's this?" crowd. The real-world isn't pretty but it works! -EGM Woody <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message news:bn8kS3gyBHA.304@forums.sybase.com... > >I believe you mean to suggest getting them out of the "user groups > > Yes, that's what I meant. Not newsgroups. > > I understand what you're saying. We're all in this for something and it's > not all out of the "goodness of our hearts". But since what we're talking > about here are perceptions, to me Sybase seems to be all about Corporate > Corporate Corporate and Big Corporate at that. If this had made this > product successful I would say continue it, but as yet, it hasn't. > Microsoft is obviously aware of corporations too but they think different > where marketing is concerned. All that said, I think Sybase has a lot going > for them. I'm "fer-em" not "agin-em". They're very classy in their own > way, but very un-people oriented in their marketing. Very corporate > oriented instead. > > Just my .02 cents worth. > > > > > "Edward Muesch" <emuesch@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:XVfHqbgyBHA.322@forums.sybase.com... > > I believe you mean to suggest getting them out of the "user groups". As > far > > as that goes I think they are as much a player in this as anyone is. Even > > more so in that their involvement in marketing their wares gets the > > attention of the corporate customer as well as the "vendor" (in this case, > > Sybase). The user group, however, might be a little more aggressive in > > providing the "common man" with resources via a web-site and newsletter. > > The "content" of what a user group provides to it's members can be > augmented > > in many ways in addition to the "pizza-and-soda" meetings which I agree > are > > almost pure marketing presentation. But I think those presentations are > > integral to the synergy of Vendor (Sybase) - Third-party marketer - User. > > Their advertising dollars also translate into sales and generate the PB > > footprint on the pages of the material the decision makers (our bosses) > read > > day-to-day. Their demise (or discontinuation of support for PB) has been > > instrumental in continuing the decreasing market share PB has in the > > corporate world. > > > > My 2 cents. > > > > -EGM > > > > Woody <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message > > news:DzlZ8RfyBHA.204@forums.sybase.com... > > > One of the things you could do to help PB's future is to get the very > big > > > corporations out of the newsgroups.. > > > > > > I can't speak for everyone, and I am not telling how it is, only how it > > > seems in this part of the country. Our user group (now dead) seemed to > be > > > like one big adverstiment for big companies in and out of town. We did > > very > > > little by way of how the common man, an ordinary programmer, might do > > > things. > > > > > > Hope I haven't been unfair to anyone, but this is how it seemed to me. > > > > > > > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
>Secondly, I think the biggest area where PowerBuilder could fill a void is >by becoming THE client-side for J2EE applications I may be out of my element on this but it seems to me that what dot net does is completly change the plumbing. They have created a new standard and it appears to me they are going to be able to carry it off. All of the major players, including Sybase if I recall correctly, seem to be on board.
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I also agree that sticking to client-side would be counter-productive. Scalability is the word of the day and although most clients are just considering web-enabling their current client/server apps the head muckity-mucks are all asking "are we scalable" and if the answer is anything but "yes" then the response is to get whatever the big-guy/gal heard being discussed at the 19th hole the prior Wednesday afternoon. -EGM Mark Maslow <mark.maslow@sierraclub.org> wrote in message news:sTRwF6gyBHA.318@forums.sybase.com... > I most certainly do not agree that PB should stick to being client-side. > None of the languages you cite come close to being as productive for writing > database aware business components. Of course, practically nobody outside > of the inner circle knows this, which is indeed a problem for the long-term > viability of the language. If one could use the language to create > components on other app servers, and Sybase discovered marketing, it would > be dynamite. But very, very big ifs, I admit. > > Mark Maslow > > "Chris" <schtoo@schtoo.com> wrote in message > news:A1OLDJfyBHA.318@forums.sybase.com... > > My honest opinion: > > > > PB should stick to being a client-side development tool. If I want to > have > > a partitioned app with different tiers I may want to use PowerBuilder on > the > > client side but I don't think I would ever choose PowerBuilder for the > > server side. I don't think the PowerBuilder language will ever become a > > serious contender on the server. It can't compete against Java, C++, > .Net. > > > > One of the things I think is looong overdue and I heard was finally coming > > about in 9 is the ability for PB to interact with app servers other than > > EAServer. I think Sybase should go about making PB work as seemlessly as > > possible with EAServer, WebSphere, WebLogic, .Net. I want these > connections > > to work like database connections do (for the most part). That is I want > to > > be able to write my clientside code without concern about what the backend > > is. > > > > I think PB needs to focus more on GUI functionality. Some people have > said > > that its not to hard to point out a PowerBuilder app. Thats because PB is > > not pretty. I think PB needs to get pretty to compete on the clientside. > > Modern visual functionality and GUI components. > > > > The problem with all this is that the datawindow doesn't really fit in > with > > this. I think the datawindow needs to be reworked so you can visually > > design a datawindow with an object as a source. This object would most > > likely be a component on your server. Once you partition your app, it > seems > > illogical that you should still be designing your datawindow against the > > database. If you are architecting correctly, the datawindow should be > > designed by what the component is passing to the client, not the database. > > IMO. > > > > Do I want PB to generate Java? > > No > > > > Do you want it to compile to the MSIL layer for .NET? > > I have no idea what that is so No. > > > > Do you think it should focus more on features for client server > > applications? > > Not necessarily client-server, but client-side Yes. > > > > Do you think it should incorporate more features to make web development > > easier? > > No, there are a ton of better web development tools, why would I choose > PB. > > > > Is it important to you that PowerBuilder can generate web services (or > > consume them) or does that not interest you in the least? > > Generate, No. Consume, Yes. > > > > One last reason why I don't think PB can make it on the server is that it > > can only work in EAServer. Thats enough to assure me that it will never > be > > anything but a niche on the server. Even if EAServer makes it big time, > the > > only people writting components for it will be old PB shops. > > > > -chris > > > > ps. Ok one last last thing. Java didn't make it to the client. Thats > > where I now see the gap. > > > > p.p.s. I also think someone should change the name. I've always thought > > PowerBuilder sounded dumb. Changing the name might help in re-inventing > it. > > We could, of course, continue with the confusing Sybase name changing > > paradigm. For example, Adaptive Builder Enteprise or Enterprise Adaptive > > Power. > > > > "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message > > news:3c8e238d.7608760@199.93.177.77... > > > That subject line should get your attention. <g> > > > > > > I'm very pleased with the participation in this group. We've obviously > > > provided a well for a very thirsty group of developers! > > > > > > As you may or may not know, PB 9 is about to go into Beta and the > > > feature set has pretty much been frozen. I know a lot of these > > > requests are for very useful features and hopefully many will some day > > > be incorporated into PB. I don't know what can be done for PB 9 at > > > this point. Just don't want to falsely get people's hopes up. > > > > > > What I would like to do, is raise the discussion to a higher level of > > > abstraction. Instead of specifics (please feel free to continue to > > > post those too) I would like to get a feel for where you, as a PB > > > developer would like to see PowerBuilder go in the future. > > > > > > Do you want it to generate Java? Do you want it to compile to the MSIL > > > layer for .NET? Do you think it should focus more on features for > > > client server applications? Do you think it should incorporate more > > > features to make web development easier? Is it important to you that > > > PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume them) or does that > > > not interest you in the least? (These are just some ideas, I'd like to > > > hear others.) > > > > > > What do you think Sybase needs to do with PowerBuilder to make it > > > thrive and regain some of the glory it had a few years ago? > > > > > > I've read some of your messages about it being too late and I > > > understand the bitterness you may feel. Unfortunately I don't have a > > > time machine so I can't go back a few years and change Sybase's past > > > strategy with regard to PowerBuilder. We do have an opportunity now to > > > influence the direction that PB goes in and I'm asking for your ideas > > > to start that change now. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > > > > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Yes. The trouble here is finding the right balance. If you cripple it too much, then you kind of defeat the purpose of doing it in the first place - to get people accustomed to all it can do so when they go out in the real world and have to use VB or some other tool they keep saying "let's use PB because it can do this or that much faster". I almost think you need to put your faith in an educational license agreement that says "here's everything, when you leave school, you need to buy it". Or, maybe you could put a built in time bomb in executeables or PBDs as part of the generation process? It works for 6 months from the time you compile it. That would be long enough to get through any class project (if not you could recompile it) but not long enough for someone to steal it and write an application to sell - they would need to come out with a patch (rebuild) every 6 months. "Edward Muesch" <emuesch@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:C#OKkJhyBHA.318@forums.sybase.com... > I believe you mean to suggest that that was your .02 dollars worth <g> > > Free PB Desktop with limited Web Datawindow. Place limitations that > wouldn't stop the little guy but only prevent the Corporate client from > being able to use it. > > Do this correctly and advertise the s--t out of it and revenue loss might > not even come to be, but watch the market share soar... slowly at first but > there is a history here, it's not a new product. So the marketing model is > different and the market-share wouldn't just dry up once a price is placed > back on it. The buzz would be enormous with Sybase lining the revenue > streams (through advertising) of those who could help with the "oh gee, > what's this?" crowd. > > The real-world isn't pretty but it works! > > -EGM > > Woody <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message > news:bn8kS3gyBHA.304@forums.sybase.com... > > >I believe you mean to suggest getting them out of the "user groups > > > > Yes, that's what I meant. Not newsgroups. > > > > I understand what you're saying. We're all in this for something and it's > > not all out of the "goodness of our hearts". But since what we're > talking > > about here are perceptions, to me Sybase seems to be all about Corporate > > Corporate Corporate and Big Corporate at that. If this had made this > > product successful I would say continue it, but as yet, it hasn't. > > Microsoft is obviously aware of corporations too but they think different > > where marketing is concerned. All that said, I think Sybase has a lot > going > > for them. I'm "fer-em" not "agin-em". They're very classy in their own > > way, but very un-people oriented in their marketing. Very corporate > > oriented instead. > > > > Just my .02 cents worth. > > > > > > > > > > "Edward Muesch" <emuesch@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > news:XVfHqbgyBHA.322@forums.sybase.com... > > > I believe you mean to suggest getting them out of the "user groups". As > > far > > > as that goes I think they are as much a player in this as anyone is. > Even > > > more so in that their involvement in marketing their wares gets the > > > attention of the corporate customer as well as the "vendor" (in this > case, > > > Sybase). The user group, however, might be a little more aggressive in > > > providing the "common man" with resources via a web-site and newsletter. > > > The "content" of what a user group provides to it's members can be > > augmented > > > in many ways in addition to the "pizza-and-soda" meetings which I agree > > are > > > almost pure marketing presentation. But I think those presentations are > > > integral to the synergy of Vendor (Sybase) - Third-party marketer - > User. > > > Their advertising dollars also translate into sales and generate the PB > > > footprint on the pages of the material the decision makers (our bosses) > > read > > > day-to-day. Their demise (or discontinuation of support for PB) has > been > > > instrumental in continuing the decreasing market share PB has in the > > > corporate world. > > > > > > My 2 cents. > > > > > > -EGM > > > > > > Woody <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message > > > news:DzlZ8RfyBHA.204@forums.sybase.com... > > > > One of the things you could do to help PB's future is to get the very > > big > > > > corporations out of the newsgroups.. > > > > > > > > I can't speak for everyone, and I am not telling how it is, only how > it > > > > seems in this part of the country. Our user group (now dead) seemed > to > > be > > > > like one big adverstiment for big companies in and out of town. We > did > > > very > > > > little by way of how the common man, an ordinary programmer, might do > > > > things. > > > > > > > > Hope I haven't been unfair to anyone, but this is how it seemed to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
The only client-server apps being discussed in companies ALL have a phase-two already being discussed and most (if not all) of those require web, Web, WEB... and MS incorrectly implies that as being available 'out-of-the-box'. Sybase needs to keep improving C/S but needs to fully incorporate Web capability as much as is technically possible. -EGM Woody <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message news:CW1p4MfyBHA.333@forums.sybase.com... > >Do you think it should focus more on features for > >client server applications. > > Yes. Client Server. Client Server. If you can do the other, fine, but in > my opinion, for my needs, it all has to rest on good client server. > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Don't limit the Web DataWindow, limit the server that realizes it to a one-connection developer's edition. Give them out like AOL disks! Edward Muesch wrote in message ... >I believe you mean to suggest that that was your .02 dollars worth <g> > >Free PB Desktop with limited Web Datawindow. Place limitations that >wouldn't stop the little guy but only prevent the Corporate client from >being able to use it. > >Do this correctly and advertise the s--t out of it and revenue loss might >not even come to be, but watch the market share soar... slowly at first but >there is a history here, it's not a new product. So the marketing model is >different and the market-share wouldn't just dry up once a price is placed >back on it. The buzz would be enormous with Sybase lining the revenue >streams (through advertising) of those who could help with the "oh gee, >what's this?" crowd. > >The real-world isn't pretty but it works! > >-EGM > >Woody <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message >news:bn8kS3gyBHA.304@forums.sybase.com... >> >I believe you mean to suggest getting them out of the "user groups >> >> Yes, that's what I meant. Not newsgroups. >> >> I understand what you're saying. We're all in this for something and it's >> not all out of the "goodness of our hearts". But since what we're >talking >> about here are perceptions, to me Sybase seems to be all about Corporate >> Corporate Corporate and Big Corporate at that. If this had made this >> product successful I would say continue it, but as yet, it hasn't. >> Microsoft is obviously aware of corporations too but they think different >> where marketing is concerned. All that said, I think Sybase has a lot >going >> for them. I'm "fer-em" not "agin-em". They're very classy in their own >> way, but very un-people oriented in their marketing. Very corporate >> oriented instead. >> >> Just my .02 cents worth. >> >> >> >> >> "Edward Muesch" <emuesch@hotmail.com> wrote in message >> news:XVfHqbgyBHA.322@forums.sybase.com... >> > I believe you mean to suggest getting them out of the "user groups". As >> far >> > as that goes I think they are as much a player in this as anyone is. >Even >> > more so in that their involvement in marketing their wares gets the >> > attention of the corporate customer as well as the "vendor" (in this >case, >> > Sybase). The user group, however, might be a little more aggressive in >> > providing the "common man" with resources via a web-site and newsletter. >> > The "content" of what a user group provides to it's members can be >> augmented >> > in many ways in addition to the "pizza-and-soda" meetings which I agree >> are >> > almost pure marketing presentation. But I think those presentations are >> > integral to the synergy of Vendor (Sybase) - Third-party marketer - >User. >> > Their advertising dollars also translate into sales and generate the PB >> > footprint on the pages of the material the decision makers (our bosses) >> read >> > day-to-day. Their demise (or discontinuation of support for PB) has >been >> > instrumental in continuing the decreasing market share PB has in the >> > corporate world. >> > >> > My 2 cents. >> > >> > -EGM >> > >> > Woody <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message >> > news:DzlZ8RfyBHA.204@forums.sybase.com... >> > > One of the things you could do to help PB's future is to get the very >> big >> > > corporations out of the newsgroups.. >> > > >> > > I can't speak for everyone, and I am not telling how it is, only how >it >> > > seems in this part of the country. Our user group (now dead) seemed >to >> be >> > > like one big adverstiment for big companies in and out of town. We >did >> > very >> > > little by way of how the common man, an ordinary programmer, might do >> > > things. >> > > >> > > Hope I haven't been unfair to anyone, but this is how it seemed to me. >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> >> > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
The power of monopoly. The industry does not have a choice but to go along with it. Trouble is, Microsoft can change their standard at will. Imagine if they changed the way the CLR worked - they can change their tools and deploy the day they announce the change and every other vendor (except those MS wants to exist, i.e. the ones that threaten them the least) have months to catch up and all the while MS gets to say "our tools are up to date and everyone else is old".... "Woody" <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message news:jtkjDMhyBHA.304@forums.sybase.com... > >Secondly, I think the biggest area where PowerBuilder could fill a void is > >by becoming THE client-side for J2EE applications > > I may be out of my element on this but it seems to me that what dot net does > is completly change the plumbing. They have created a new standard and it > appears to me they are going to be able to carry it off. All of the major > players, including Sybase if I recall correctly, seem to be on board. > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Every large shop has multiple technologies being used. If you don't know how compatibility and seamless (or at least simple) integration with Java and .NET will help you, and thus can't explain it to your boss... then the guy across the floor (probably using MS or Sun technology) will be more than happy to. -EGM VictorReinhart <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote in message news:15OyqcfyBHA.318@forums.sybase.com... > >Do you want it to generate Java? > No, unless you can explain how that helps me. > > >Do you want it to compile to the MSIL layer for .NET? > No, unless you can explain how that helps me. > > >Do you think it should focus more on features for > >client server applications? > Yes. I think the other posts speak for themselves. > > >Do you think it should incorporate more features to make web development > easier? > Well, maybe, if we can get a pricing model that makes sense for us. We never > even looked at EAServer because we sell our package at a price so low that the > EAServer cost would literally eat up most of the profits. > > PB web apps are tied to EAServer, which is OK if we can sell our package and > make money. If we can't do that, it doesn't matter how good it is. We are > still using Active Server Pages for our web package, and you get what you pay > for. > > What I'd really like is the power to develop a *huge* web application with a RAD > tool. Just like developing Client Server is with PowerBuilder -- you just can't > beat the programmer productivity! > > I don't like *any* web development tool on the market today. Active Server > Pages is way slower to develop than PB. And, it's hard to maintain too. I > still use Notepad primarily, and I'll bet that's true for many. Seems to me, > most ASP applications are pretty small. We want to port our whole application > to the web, but that's a "bet the company" proposal. > > For now, I feel comfortable betting the company on Client Server and Sybase's > PowerBuilder. But truthfully, the 8.0 user interface still could use some work. > Although it has improved in many ways (multiple DB connections, Workspaces, > etc), there is still some polishing needed. But bottom line, I'm more > productive there than in any other tool I've seen (and I shop!) > > And, for people who really have to have everything on the intranet, we are > successfully using Terminal Services and Citrix. That has let us buy time > before doing a huge rewrite to the web. > > Trends change. A few years ago, some wanted our application to be written > entirely in Java. Now some want everything on the web, and to have a Unix-based > application server. Oh, and by the way, it has to connect to our standard > database, whatever that is now. > > We can't rewrite our package every time a trend changes. It's just too big. > The cost to re-write and test, then write a new manual is too high. We have to > keep going with Client Server. And Client-Server has a much better user > interface than most web applications anyway. And, it works! > > To thrive and regain glory? I think the answers are right here in the user > group. The main answer is Marketing. You have to get this tool into the hands > of students and teachers. You have to build courses and/or books and make them > available to people who aren't devoting their entire lives to PB (in other > words, to people who aren't CPI's.) > > Wine and dine your remaining PowerBuilder User Group presidents. These people > work *so* hard and are your greatest fans. Help user groups, even finance them > and set up a rotation system so you don't have just one person doing all the > work. Maybe monthly meetings don't make sense any more, so set up new groups > with three meetings a year (offset from the annual Tech Wave). > > I'd like to know more about Team PowerSoft. These folks are *so* helpful on the > newsgroups. What does Sybase do for these folks? How does one join? > > I spend many years teaching at UC Irvine and running the Orange County PB User > Group, and did get some support from Sybase. More would have been better. > > Give people a reason to be a user group president. Put a link to the user > groups on your home page, not buried 5 levels down. Post a picture of the > person, link to their home page, glorify these people. > > Another big issue is to meet people's rising expectations. People are OK with > PB being a Client-Server tool. But, they are no longer happy with working > around "beginner bugs". The two which must be squashed are: Compiler must > include all objects into EXE, and when adding a new column to an updatable > datawindow, the new column should be updatable. > > Beginners need to have a good "out of the box experience". One of PB's > strengths has always been that its Sample Application was far superior to VB. > Well, that Sample App has hardly changed in a long time. Time for an update. > It needs 2 killers applications: Screen Customization, and the Rich Text column > which works with MS Word. > > Finally, the DataWindow, which was the king control of all time, must be > modernized to meet today's higher expectations. Grids in particular must be > improved, and there are many little suggestions. > > One more thing. I think Sybase is too fond of "big features", to the detriment > of "little features". Compiling to JAVA is viewed as a "big feature" -- > something sellable. I would rather have 30 "little features" -- such as > improving the Find, than one "big feature". > > Just my humble opinion. > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
You may have had an easy and productive time creating dynamic web pages based on datawindows but developers who don't know PB won't. I don't think Sybase will ever convince any non-PB programmers/managers to build a web app from the ground up with PowerBuilder. Basically I think PB missed the boat on serverside. There are too many other technologies on the serverside (Java,.NET) that PB isn't suited to compete against. PB will never displace either of these on the server (short of a miracle), so why try? I would focus on the battles we can win. > Like it or not (and 18 months ago I was in the "hate it a lot" camp), the > web (intranet) is a driving force in development. A tool that only does > client/server is severely limiting it's market - something PB doesn't really > have room to do. A tool that does both is a great selling point - buy this > tool because no matter what architecture you choose, it will work.... I didn't mean to imply that I wanted it to be client-server only, just client only. Or at least client primarily. I certainly still advocate multi-tier applications. As for doing everything, I would disagree. I would rather PB focused on one thing or one primary area and did it well. While it may be limiting its market, I don't think PB has or will make inroads into the serverside. That market is already entrenched with Java and soon to be with .Net. -chris
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Sorry Victor, bandwidth is a little tight and I initially responded without reading your entire post. I agree with your assessment of trends and 'bet the company' decisions to "stay current" but your assessments, while I feel are correct, are a bit before their time in terms of upper management realizations in the larger corporate structures. But if you think about it, if PB integrated more of these technologies they would have more market share and the availability of other solutions to integrate with PB would increase and mature. Just my 2 cents. -EGM VictorReinhart <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote in message news:15OyqcfyBHA.318@forums.sybase.com... > >Do you want it to generate Java? > No, unless you can explain how that helps me. > > >Do you want it to compile to the MSIL layer for .NET? > No, unless you can explain how that helps me. > > >Do you think it should focus more on features for > >client server applications? > Yes. I think the other posts speak for themselves. > > >Do you think it should incorporate more features to make web development > easier? > Well, maybe, if we can get a pricing model that makes sense for us. We never > even looked at EAServer because we sell our package at a price so low that the > EAServer cost would literally eat up most of the profits. > > PB web apps are tied to EAServer, which is OK if we can sell our package and > make money. If we can't do that, it doesn't matter how good it is. We are > still using Active Server Pages for our web package, and you get what you pay > for. > > What I'd really like is the power to develop a *huge* web application with a RAD > tool. Just like developing Client Server is with PowerBuilder -- you just can't > beat the programmer productivity! > > I don't like *any* web development tool on the market today. Active Server > Pages is way slower to develop than PB. And, it's hard to maintain too. I > still use Notepad primarily, and I'll bet that's true for many. Seems to me, > most ASP applications are pretty small. We want to port our whole application > to the web, but that's a "bet the company" proposal. > > For now, I feel comfortable betting the company on Client Server and Sybase's > PowerBuilder. But truthfully, the 8.0 user interface still could use some work. > Although it has improved in many ways (multiple DB connections, Workspaces, > etc), there is still some polishing needed. But bottom line, I'm more > productive there than in any other tool I've seen (and I shop!) > > And, for people who really have to have everything on the intranet, we are > successfully using Terminal Services and Citrix. That has let us buy time > before doing a huge rewrite to the web. > > Trends change. A few years ago, some wanted our application to be written > entirely in Java. Now some want everything on the web, and to have a Unix-based > application server. Oh, and by the way, it has to connect to our standard > database, whatever that is now. > > We can't rewrite our package every time a trend changes. It's just too big. > The cost to re-write and test, then write a new manual is too high. We have to > keep going with Client Server. And Client-Server has a much better user > interface than most web applications anyway. And, it works! > > To thrive and regain glory? I think the answers are right here in the user > group. The main answer is Marketing. You have to get this tool into the hands > of students and teachers. You have to build courses and/or books and make them > available to people who aren't devoting their entire lives to PB (in other > words, to people who aren't CPI's.) > > Wine and dine your remaining PowerBuilder User Group presidents. These people > work *so* hard and are your greatest fans. Help user groups, even finance them > and set up a rotation system so you don't have just one person doing all the > work. Maybe monthly meetings don't make sense any more, so set up new groups > with three meetings a year (offset from the annual Tech Wave). > > I'd like to know more about Team PowerSoft. These folks are *so* helpful on the > newsgroups. What does Sybase do for these folks? How does one join? > > I spend many years teaching at UC Irvine and running the Orange County PB User > Group, and did get some support from Sybase. More would have been better. > > Give people a reason to be a user group president. Put a link to the user > groups on your home page, not buried 5 levels down. Post a picture of the > person, link to their home page, glorify these people. > > Another big issue is to meet people's rising expectations. People are OK with > PB being a Client-Server tool. But, they are no longer happy with working > around "beginner bugs". The two which must be squashed are: Compiler must > include all objects into EXE, and when adding a new column to an updatable > datawindow, the new column should be updatable. > > Beginners need to have a good "out of the box experience". One of PB's > strengths has always been that its Sample Application was far superior to VB. > Well, that Sample App has hardly changed in a long time. Time for an update. > It needs 2 killers applications: Screen Customization, and the Rich Text column > which works with MS Word. > > Finally, the DataWindow, which was the king control of all time, must be > modernized to meet today's higher expectations. Grids in particular must be > improved, and there are many little suggestions. > > One more thing. I think Sybase is too fond of "big features", to the detriment > of "little features". Compiling to JAVA is viewed as a "big feature" -- > something sellable. I would rather have 30 "little features" -- such as > improving the Find, than one "big feature". > > Just my humble opinion. > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
If other you could write components in PB that could reside on other app servers then I would change my entire view point but I don't think thats gonna happen. PB components require the PB VM. I don't think Sybase will ever convince IBM, BEA or anyone else to incorporate the PB VM into their products. Maybe somehow Sybase could create a solution that would make a PB component looks like a C++ or Java component inside these app servers but they would still carry the VM with each component. They would be very large and also not very fast. I doesn't seem to me that this would be a viable solution. Some people have suggested that PB generate java bytecode. That would work but I'm guessing that would be an incredibly difficult feature for Sybase to make. And would probably be prone with errors and problems. This way or another similar way (one that gets rid of the dependence on the VM) is the only way I see PB components in other app servers. And I just don't think you can seperate the VM from PB. Granted I'm speculating widely based on what I know of PB. As good a product as EAServer may be, PB won't make it on the serverside in just EAServer alone. -chris "Mark Maslow" <mark.maslow@sierraclub.org> wrote in message news:sTRwF6gyBHA.318@forums.sybase.com... > I most certainly do not agree that PB should stick to being client-side. > None of the languages you cite come close to being as productive for writing > database aware business components. Of course, practically nobody outside > of the inner circle knows this, which is indeed a problem for the long-term > viability of the language. If one could use the language to create > components on other app servers, and Sybase discovered marketing, it would > be dynamite. But very, very big ifs, I admit. > > Mark Maslow > > "Chris" <schtoo@schtoo.com> wrote in message > news:A1OLDJfyBHA.318@forums.sybase.com... > > My honest opinion: > > > > PB should stick to being a client-side development tool. If I want to > have > > a partitioned app with different tiers I may want to use PowerBuilder on > the > > client side but I don't think I would ever choose PowerBuilder for the > > server side. I don't think the PowerBuilder language will ever become a > > serious contender on the server. It can't compete against Java, C++, > .Net. > > > > One of the things I think is looong overdue and I heard was finally coming > > about in 9 is the ability for PB to interact with app servers other than > > EAServer. I think Sybase should go about making PB work as seemlessly as > > possible with EAServer, WebSphere, WebLogic, .Net. I want these > connections > > to work like database connections do (for the most part). That is I want > to > > be able to write my clientside code without concern about what the backend > > is. > > > > I think PB needs to focus more on GUI functionality. Some people have > said > > that its not to hard to point out a PowerBuilder app. Thats because PB is > > not pretty. I think PB needs to get pretty to compete on the clientside. > > Modern visual functionality and GUI components. > > > > The problem with all this is that the datawindow doesn't really fit in > with > > this. I think the datawindow needs to be reworked so you can visually > > design a datawindow with an object as a source. This object would most > > likely be a component on your server. Once you partition your app, it > seems > > illogical that you should still be designing your datawindow against the > > database. If you are architecting correctly, the datawindow should be > > designed by what the component is passing to the client, not the database. > > IMO. > > > > Do I want PB to generate Java? > > No > > > > Do you want it to compile to the MSIL layer for .NET? > > I have no idea what that is so No. > > > > Do you think it should focus more on features for client server > > applications? > > Not necessarily client-server, but client-side Yes. > > > > Do you think it should incorporate more features to make web development > > easier? > > No, there are a ton of better web development tools, why would I choose > PB. > > > > Is it important to you that PowerBuilder can generate web services (or > > consume them) or does that not interest you in the least? > > Generate, No. Consume, Yes. > > > > One last reason why I don't think PB can make it on the server is that it > > can only work in EAServer. Thats enough to assure me that it will never > be > > anything but a niche on the server. Even if EAServer makes it big time, > the > > only people writting components for it will be old PB shops. > > > > -chris > > > > ps. Ok one last last thing. Java didn't make it to the client. Thats > > where I now see the gap. > > > > p.p.s. I also think someone should change the name. I've always thought > > PowerBuilder sounded dumb. Changing the name might help in re-inventing > it. > > We could, of course, continue with the confusing Sybase name changing > > paradigm. For example, Adaptive Builder Enteprise or Enterprise Adaptive > > Power. > > > > "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message > > news:3c8e238d.7608760@199.93.177.77... > > > That subject line should get your attention. <g> > > > > > > I'm very pleased with the participation in this group. We've obviously > > > provided a well for a very thirsty group of developers! > > > > > > As you may or may not know, PB 9 is about to go into Beta and the > > > feature set has pretty much been frozen. I know a lot of these > > > requests are for very useful features and hopefully many will some day > > > be incorporated into PB. I don't know what can be done for PB 9 at > > > this point. Just don't want to falsely get people's hopes up. > > > > > > What I would like to do, is raise the discussion to a higher level of > > > abstraction. Instead of specifics (please feel free to continue to > > > post those too) I would like to get a feel for where you, as a PB > > > developer would like to see PowerBuilder go in the future. > > > > > > Do you want it to generate Java? Do you want it to compile to the MSIL > > > layer for .NET? Do you think it should focus more on features for > > > client server applications? Do you think it should incorporate more > > > features to make web development easier? Is it important to you that > > > PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume them) or does that > > > not interest you in the least? (These are just some ideas, I'd like to > > > hear others.) > > > > > > What do you think Sybase needs to do with PowerBuilder to make it > > > thrive and regain some of the glory it had a few years ago? > > > > > > I've read some of your messages about it being too late and I > > > understand the bitterness you may feel. Unfortunately I don't have a > > > time machine so I can't go back a few years and change Sybase's past > > > strategy with regard to PowerBuilder. We do have an opportunity now to > > > influence the direction that PB goes in and I'm asking for your ideas > > > to start that change now. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > > > > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Amen. This is exactly what I was trying to say. "Nathan W. Phelps" <nphelps@solarc.com> wrote in message news:eW9AJ8gyBHA.204@forums.sybase.com... > I read a post a few days ago from Roy Kiesler that Raj Nathan said that ..NET > support would be included in PowerBuilder 9.0. I'm assuming that this is > certainly not happening since you're asking these sorts of questions now? > > Secondly, I think the biggest area where PowerBuilder could fill a void is > by becoming THE client-side for J2EE applications. I mean PowerBuilder has > always been about the DataWindow, and I frankly don't see how the > DataWindows fits in at all in a well architected multi-tier development > model. I welcome someone to explain to me how I'm wrong on that one, > because that is currently an area of confusion for me since I don't use the > DataWindow. But what I'm getting at is PowerBuilder needs a new niche. I > personally see a void as far as tools to help easily develop traditional > graphical user interfaces for J2EE applications. I'm a big fan of Java, > which is what I do a majority of my development in, but frankly I'm not a > fan of Java on the client. If Sybase could provide a stellar environment > for building an UI that could talk to any J2EE application server I think > that might be an area where it could excel. Sybase could do this as a ..NET > language or as it is today with the PBVM. I also think it is absolutely > critical that PowerBuilder continue to sport tight integration with > EAServer. This is the ONLY migration path that PowerBuilder shops have to > take third client-server applications to the three-tier model. If this > support goes away, those shops are going to be forced to simply recode > everything in a different environment and no one wants to do that. > > Lastly, I think it is important that PowerBuilder continue to support the > traditional client-server development model. Frankly, in many situations > n-tier is complete overkill. If you need to build a departmental > application with a traditional UI, then PowerBuilder does the job pretty > well. > > > "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message > news:3c8e238d.7608760@199.93.177.77... > > That subject line should get your attention. <g> > > > > I'm very pleased with the participation in this group. We've obviously > > provided a well for a very thirsty group of developers! > > > > As you may or may not know, PB 9 is about to go into Beta and the > > feature set has pretty much been frozen. I know a lot of these > > requests are for very useful features and hopefully many will some day > > be incorporated into PB. I don't know what can be done for PB 9 at > > this point. Just don't want to falsely get people's hopes up. > > > > What I would like to do, is raise the discussion to a higher level of > > abstraction. Instead of specifics (please feel free to continue to > > post those too) I would like to get a feel for where you, as a PB > > developer would like to see PowerBuilder go in the future. > > > > Do you want it to generate Java? Do you want it to compile to the MSIL > > layer for .NET? Do you think it should focus more on features for > > client server applications? Do you think it should incorporate more > > features to make web development easier? Is it important to you that > > PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume them) or does that > > not interest you in the least? (These are just some ideas, I'd like to > > hear others.) > > > > What do you think Sybase needs to do with PowerBuilder to make it > > thrive and regain some of the glory it had a few years ago? > > > > I've read some of your messages about it being too late and I > > understand the bitterness you may feel. Unfortunately I don't have a > > time machine so I can't go back a few years and change Sybase's past > > strategy with regard to PowerBuilder. We do have an opportunity now to > > influence the direction that PB goes in and I'm asking for your ideas > > to start that change now. > > > > Regards, > > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
> While it may be limiting its market, I don't think PB has or will make > inroads into the serverside. I disagree. The leverage of so many client-server apps (and the teams who develop/maintain them) is the perfect in-road to a server-side development market-share with PB. If the development of the technology and the marketing model is sound and Sybase doesn't expect immediate response before pulling the plug. > I don't think > Sybase will ever convince any non-PB programmers/managers to build a web app > from the ground up with PowerBuilder. If the existing corporate PB teams can develop web-apps that work and are scalable then word-of-mouth will aid the marketing effort and development teams will pop-up all over the place. > That market is already entrenched with Java > and soon to be with .Net. If .NET can compete where Java is pretty firmly entrenched (which in many opinions fails miserably on the client-side) then why not PB as well, where the same tool can be used on both the server AND the client side. Just my 2 cents. -EGM Chris <schtoo@schtoo.com> wrote in message news:8Z906ahyBHA.333@forums.sybase.com... > You may have had an easy and productive time creating dynamic web pages > based on datawindows but developers who don't know PB won't. I don't think > Sybase will ever convince any non-PB programmers/managers to build a web app > from the ground up with PowerBuilder. Basically I think PB missed the boat > on serverside. There are too many other technologies on the serverside > (Java,.NET) that PB isn't suited to compete against. PB will never displace > either of these on the server (short of a miracle), so why try? I would > focus on the battles we can win. > > > Like it or not (and 18 months ago I was in the "hate it a lot" camp), the > > web (intranet) is a driving force in development. A tool that only does > > client/server is severely limiting it's market - something PB doesn't > really > > have room to do. A tool that does both is a great selling point - buy > this > > tool because no matter what architecture you choose, it will work.... > > I didn't mean to imply that I wanted it to be client-server only, just > client only. Or at least client primarily. I certainly still advocate > multi-tier applications. As for doing everything, I would disagree. I > would rather PB focused on one thing or one primary area and did it well. > While it may be limiting its market, I don't think PB has or will make > inroads into the serverside. That market is already entrenched with Java > and soon to be with .Net. > > -chris > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Personally, I've never considered the newsgroup as a place to learn about new stuff. Yes, I have learned most of what I know from the newsgroup, but I'd like to see a place where people can get together and say, "Hey, look at what I did! It's neat, and I learned that....." I just don't get that in a newsgroup. "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> wrote in message news:5QmbBjgyBHA.304@forums.sybase.com... > I don't know. I can't help but think that what killed the user groups was > well supported newsgroups. What did you go to a user group for? I went to > learn about new stuff, to interact with other developers, and for free pizza > and soda <g>. It seems to me that the first two are being met here, and I > can participate as my own time schedule allows. They could be augmented a bit, > I'd like to see online presentations that allow for question and answer > sesions (the online equivalent of the meeting presentations). Not just from > the Sybase folks and the big corporations, and but the average Joe developer > with something to show as well. Perhaps they could be recorded and made > available for later viewing. > > But, aside from not being able to scarf down on free virtual pizza and soda, > what else are we missing? > > On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:36:16 -0500, > in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion > Edward Muesch <emuesch@hotmail.com> wrote: > >I believe you mean to suggest getting them out of the "user groups". As far > >as that goes I think they are as much a player in this as anyone is. Even > >more so in that their involvement in marketing their wares gets the > >attention of the corporate customer as well as the "vendor" (in this case, > >Sybase). The user group, however, might be a little more aggressive in > >providing the "common man" with resources via a web-site and newsletter. > >The "content" of what a user group provides to it's members can be augmented > >in many ways in addition to the "pizza-and-soda" meetings which I agree are > >almost pure marketing presentation. But I think those presentations are > >integral to the synergy of Vendor (Sybase) - Third-party marketer - User. > >Their advertising dollars also translate into sales and generate the PB > >footprint on the pages of the material the decision makers (our bosses) read > >day-to-day. Their demise (or discontinuation of support for PB) has been > >instrumental in continuing the decreasing market share PB has in the > >corporate world. > > > >My 2 cents. > > > >-EGM > > > >Woody <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message > >news:DzlZ8RfyBHA.204@forums.sybase.com... > >> One of the things you could do to help PB's future is to get the very big > >> corporations out of the newsgroups.. > >> > >> I can't speak for everyone, and I am not telling how it is, only how it > >> seems in this part of the country. Our user group (now dead) seemed to be > >> like one big adverstiment for big companies in and out of town. We did > >very > >> little by way of how the common man, an ordinary programmer, might do > >> things. > >> > >> Hope I haven't been unfair to anyone, but this is how it seemed to me. > >> > >> > > > > > > Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] > http://www.teamsybase.com > http://www.needhim.org > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
In a different post I mention the Building the Future seminars - these showed how simple it was.... personally, I think it takes more JSP knowledge to get the stock HTML generator working than PB skills (datawindow painter aside - but that's almost as simple as point and click drop and drag -- for basic DWs at least). "Chris" <schtoo@schtoo.com> wrote in message news:8Z906ahyBHA.333@forums.sybase.com... > You may have had an easy and productive time creating dynamic web pages > based on datawindows but developers who don't know PB won't. I don't think > Sybase will ever convince any non-PB programmers/managers to build a web app > from the ground up with PowerBuilder. Basically I think PB missed the boat > on serverside. There are too many other technologies on the serverside > (Java,.NET) that PB isn't suited to compete against. PB will never displace > either of these on the server (short of a miracle), so why try? I would > focus on the battles we can win. > > > Like it or not (and 18 months ago I was in the "hate it a lot" camp), the > > web (intranet) is a driving force in development. A tool that only does > > client/server is severely limiting it's market - something PB doesn't > really > > have room to do. A tool that does both is a great selling point - buy > this > > tool because no matter what architecture you choose, it will work.... > > I didn't mean to imply that I wanted it to be client-server only, just > client only. Or at least client primarily. I certainly still advocate > multi-tier applications. As for doing everything, I would disagree. I > would rather PB focused on one thing or one primary area and did it well. > While it may be limiting its market, I don't think PB has or will make > inroads into the serverside. That market is already entrenched with Java > and soon to be with .Net. > > -chris > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
But that's the point of the virtual online presentations I mentioned as something we needed to add. On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:05:08 -0600, in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion Bug <fenterbug@hotmail.com> wrote: >Personally, I've never considered the newsgroup as a place to learn about >new stuff. Yes, I have learned most of what I know from the newsgroup, but >I'd like to see a place where people can get together and say, "Hey, look at >what I did! It's neat, and I learned that....." I just don't get that in a >newsgroup. > > >"Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> >wrote in message news:5QmbBjgyBHA.304@forums.sybase.com... >> I don't know. I can't help but think that what killed the user groups was >> well supported newsgroups. What did you go to a user group for? I went >to >> learn about new stuff, to interact with other developers, and for free >pizza >> and soda <g>. It seems to me that the first two are being met here, and I >> can participate as my own time schedule allows. They could be augmented a >bit, >> I'd like to see online presentations that allow for question and answer >> sesions (the online equivalent of the meeting presentations). Not just >from >> the Sybase folks and the big corporations, and but the average Joe >developer >> with something to show as well. Perhaps they could be recorded and made >> available for later viewing. >> >> But, aside from not being able to scarf down on free virtual pizza and >soda, >> what else are we missing? >> >> On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:36:16 -0500, >> in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion >> Edward Muesch <emuesch@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >I believe you mean to suggest getting them out of the "user groups". As >far >> >as that goes I think they are as much a player in this as anyone is. >Even >> >more so in that their involvement in marketing their wares gets the >> >attention of the corporate customer as well as the "vendor" (in this >case, >> >Sybase). The user group, however, might be a little more aggressive in >> >providing the "common man" with resources via a web-site and newsletter. >> >The "content" of what a user group provides to it's members can be >augmented >> >in many ways in addition to the "pizza-and-soda" meetings which I agree >are >> >almost pure marketing presentation. But I think those presentations are >> >integral to the synergy of Vendor (Sybase) - Third-party marketer - User. >> >Their advertising dollars also translate into sales and generate the PB >> >footprint on the pages of the material the decision makers (our bosses) >read >> >day-to-day. Their demise (or discontinuation of support for PB) has been >> >instrumental in continuing the decreasing market share PB has in the >> >corporate world. >> > >> >My 2 cents. >> > >> >-EGM >> > >> >Woody <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message >> >news:DzlZ8RfyBHA.204@forums.sybase.com... >> >> One of the things you could do to help PB's future is to get the very >big >> >> corporations out of the newsgroups.. >> >> >> >> I can't speak for everyone, and I am not telling how it is, only how it >> >> seems in this part of the country. Our user group (now dead) seemed to >be >> >> like one big adverstiment for big companies in and out of town. We did >> >very >> >> little by way of how the common man, an ordinary programmer, might do >> >> things. >> >> >> >> Hope I haven't been unfair to anyone, but this is how it seemed to me. >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] >> http://www.teamsybase.com >> http://www.needhim.org >> >> ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- >> http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp > > Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] http://www.teamsybase.com http://www.needhim.org ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Are you referring to the CRL and all that, or to web services? On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 14:06:46 -0800, in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion Woody <woody@splawns.com> wrote: >>Secondly, I think the biggest area where PowerBuilder could fill a void is >>by becoming THE client-side for J2EE applications > >I may be out of my element on this but it seems to me that what dot net does >is completly change the plumbing. They have created a new standard and it >appears to me they are going to be able to carry it off. All of the major >players, including Sybase if I recall correctly, seem to be on board. > > > > > Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] http://www.teamsybase.com http://www.needhim.org ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I'll post a PowerPoint next week. <g> "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> wrote in message news:EhUS21hyBHA.304@forums.sybase.com... > But that's the point of the virtual online presentations I mentioned as > something we needed to add. > > On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:05:08 -0600, > in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion > Bug <fenterbug@hotmail.com> wrote: > >Personally, I've never considered the newsgroup as a place to learn about > >new stuff. Yes, I have learned most of what I know from the newsgroup, but > >I'd like to see a place where people can get together and say, "Hey, look at > >what I did! It's neat, and I learned that....." I just don't get that in a > >newsgroup.
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Only if you promise to attach the viewer too <g> -EGM Bug <fenterbug@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:5$J2v#hyBHA.204@forums.sybase.com... > I'll post a PowerPoint next week. <g> > > > "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> > wrote in message news:EhUS21hyBHA.304@forums.sybase.com... > > But that's the point of the virtual online presentations I mentioned as > > something we needed to add. > > > > On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:05:08 -0600, > > in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion > > Bug <fenterbug@hotmail.com> wrote: > > >Personally, I've never considered the newsgroup as a place to learn about > > >new stuff. Yes, I have learned most of what I know from the newsgroup, > but > > >I'd like to see a place where people can get together and say, "Hey, look > at > > >what I did! It's neat, and I learned that....." I just don't get that in > a > > >newsgroup. > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I'm not getting where you're going here. Can you clarify? Are you talking about WinForms or the entire .NET platform? "Woody" <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message news:jtkjDMhyBHA.304@forums.sybase.com... > > I may be out of my element on this but it seems to me that what dot net does > is completly change the plumbing. They have created a new standard and it > appears to me they are going to be able to carry it off. All of the major > players, including Sybase if I recall correctly, seem to be on board.
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I'm talking about the entire dot net platform. "Nathan Phelps" <nphelps@valornet.com> wrote in message news:fTkhSdiyBHA.322@forums.sybase.com... > I'm not getting where you're going here. Can you clarify? Are you talking > about WinForms or the entire .NET platform? > > "Woody" <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message > news:jtkjDMhyBHA.304@forums.sybase.com... > > > > I may be out of my element on this but it seems to me that what dot net > does > > is completly change the plumbing. They have created a new standard and it > > appears to me they are going to be able to carry it off. All of the major > > players, including Sybase if I recall correctly, seem to be on board. > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
All the major players? Ah, Sun Microsystems isn't on board, IBM isn't on board, BEA isn't on board, Oracle isn't on board, Borland isn't on board... Sybase is currently working with Microsoft to decide the best way to support ..NET in its products. As of yet, however, it appears no decisions have been made. Of course .NET is a whole new ball game... that's the point isn't it? My post was to simply point out that--regardless if Sybase chooses to support ..NET or not--they might be able to make PowerBuilder into an ideal platform to build UIs for J2EE applications. There're already very close to this sort of support with the features that have been added to PowerBuilder 9.0. If they were to add .NET support fine, the UI code would subclass .NET WinForms, otherwise it would subclass the MFC--same old thing. While everyone would probably agree that Microsoft does a much better job of creating and IDE (Visual Studio .NET rocks), we cannot expect Microsoft to provide native support for building front ends to J2EE applications. If PowerBuilder sported such support, they might be on to something. "Woody" <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message news:jtkjDMhyBHA.304@forums.sybase.com... > > I may be out of my element on this but it seems to me that what dot net does > is completly change the plumbing. They have created a new standard and it > appears to me they are going to be able to carry it off. All of the major > players, including Sybase if I recall correctly, seem to be on board. > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
> If .NET can compete where Java is pretty firmly entrenched (which in many > opinions fails miserably on the client-side) then why not PB as well, where > the same tool can be used on both the server AND the client side. Because Sybase is not Microsoft. .NET isn't even complete yet and look at the following it has. EAServer has been out for X years and it would be generous to say that EAServer has 10% of that. PowerBuilder has no mindshare outside of existing PowerBuilder developers. Ask a non-PB developer if he would ever consider using PowerBuilder to develop a web app and he'd look at you cross-eyed. -chris
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I feel a need to jump in, and I don't want to step on any toes. Marketing is an animla measured only by a company's bottom line. If you've done a good job, your bottom line improves. I read probably 20 magazines a month. There are probably a 1000 magazines out there. If Sybase advertises and pushes their product heavily in 100 of those magazines and I don't happen to read any of them, to me, the marketing sucks. That being said, I am lucky(???) enough to have gotten involved in some small degree with the marketing folks at Sybase, and they are doing a lot. We might not all notice it, one reason being that their marketing budget - for all products - is less than Microsoft plans to spend on .Net alone. That's the benefit of having a market capitilization near $300B vs. the almost $2B for Sybase. Nothing you can do about that. On the other hand, I have seen Sybase ads, press releases, articles all over the place, including several key online publishers like ZD Online, InfoWorld et al. I opened up a PC Magazine the other day at my sons doctors office, and the first page I opened to - a Sybase ad. They've had articles in Computer Reseller News (that I've yet to actually find someone who actually reads <g>), DM Review, Infoworld, of course PBDJ and JDJ among others. I believe next months PBDJ will ship with the developer edition of EAServer 4.1 inside. I've personally been asked to, and have participated in interviews with Gartner, Giga, Forester and AMR Research, so they're getting analysts involved. Their webinars have been well-received. There is actually so much going on that it's hard to keep track of what's going on next, and where. I believe that the penetration is being made. The first step was to change the perception of Sybase as a database company to an infrastructure company. That was not targeted at developers, but at the C-level of management. The next step is to create awareness of their products, and that is currently under way. We all want to see more advertising, and more marketing, and if anyone has a good concrete idea, the marketing group would love to hear it. I'd be happy to serve as the conduit between anyone here and the marketing group, but I would suggest first talking to your sales rep. Make them get involved at your company to show what Sybase has to offer. I did this at a client, and i thought I was pretty clued up with what Sybase does and what products they have. I was amazed with what I didn't know about. The marketing push is going on. It may not be felt for a while, but I'm at least convinced that stealth marketing has gone by the wayside. The marketing group is aggresive, and, my favorite part, is willing to butt heads with their opponents rather than take the high road anymore. OK, off my soapbox here. Again, if anyone thinks they have some great ideas to help promote the marketing, feel free to get in touch with me. I will not hesitate to pass you on to the marketing person I have been dealing with. regards, Bill Green "Woody" <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message news:w7MAfvfyBHA.333@forums.sybase.com... > >To thrive and regain glory? I think the answers are right here in the user > >group. The main answer is Marketing > > I too think marketing is key but I would take a different tack. You can't > even buy PowerBuilder in a regular computer store like CompUSA. If it can > be bought at all it has to be special ordered. > > Why not do adds in PC week. The comman man, and mere mortals, have to know > about the product. Sybase is so classy in other ways. The tech support on > line is great and they are obviously so professional in other ways. It's > just that there is zero name recognition with regard to PowerBuilder. If > they would advertise it as the best client/server tool on the market, it > would be hard to refute. > > There's nothing other than Borland right now that fills that nitch. VB.net > can't be purchased with a report writer for less than $1,200.00. Delphi is > easily purchased at most big computer stores. > > By the way, tech support for how to make Crystal reports work with the > integrated VS.net environment is allmost nill. There is no MS newsgroup for > this that is monitored by Crystal and only a few messages a day are passing > through Crystal's internal news group. My understanding is that Crystal has > pretty good support if you are willing to pay (again a big corporation > thing) but if you want any support like we have on these newsgroup, good > luck. > > A lot of good that does a developer who does not have a several thousand > dollar technical support budget. > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
My take is that you need to support any/all J2EE containers as a PB client, you need to support .Net but I'm not sure to what level (generate components that can be deployed in a .net server?), and I think to solve the "use another server" issue, be able to deploy a PB component as a pure Java Bean (not necessarily an EJB). I understand some of the ramifications, but probably 90% is very easily generated. I also (havn't thought this one all the way through yet) would like to take a datawindow and generate an EJB out of it, and be able to use an EJB as the datasource for a datwindow. Bill "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message news:3c8e238d.7608760@199.93.177.77... > That subject line should get your attention. <g> > > I'm very pleased with the participation in this group. We've obviously > provided a well for a very thirsty group of developers! > > As you may or may not know, PB 9 is about to go into Beta and the > feature set has pretty much been frozen. I know a lot of these > requests are for very useful features and hopefully many will some day > be incorporated into PB. I don't know what can be done for PB 9 at > this point. Just don't want to falsely get people's hopes up. > > What I would like to do, is raise the discussion to a higher level of > abstraction. Instead of specifics (please feel free to continue to > post those too) I would like to get a feel for where you, as a PB > developer would like to see PowerBuilder go in the future. > > Do you want it to generate Java? Do you want it to compile to the MSIL > layer for .NET? Do you think it should focus more on features for > client server applications? Do you think it should incorporate more > features to make web development easier? Is it important to you that > PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume them) or does that > not interest you in the least? (These are just some ideas, I'd like to > hear others.) > > What do you think Sybase needs to do with PowerBuilder to make it > thrive and regain some of the glory it had a few years ago? > > I've read some of your messages about it being too late and I > understand the bitterness you may feel. Unfortunately I don't have a > time machine so I can't go back a few years and change Sybase's past > strategy with regard to PowerBuilder. We do have an opportunity now to > influence the direction that PB goes in and I'm asking for your ideas > to start that change now. > > Regards, > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Seems slike nobody in this discussion applaude the mentioning of Pb support for web-services... I do - I'd like to use them, create them and maintain them in my Pb! In the future, I guess that XML web services seems to be THE way of handling net-wide structured information exchange. Anders �gnses Funn as Narvik "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message news:3c8e238d.7608760@199.93.177.77... > That subject line should get your attention. <g> > > I'm very pleased with the participation in this group. We've obviously > provided a well for a very thirsty group of developers! > > As you may or may not know, PB 9 is about to go into Beta and the > feature set has pretty much been frozen. I know a lot of these > requests are for very useful features and hopefully many will some day > be incorporated into PB. I don't know what can be done for PB 9 at > this point. Just don't want to falsely get people's hopes up. > > What I would like to do, is raise the discussion to a higher level of > abstraction. Instead of specifics (please feel free to continue to > post those too) I would like to get a feel for where you, as a PB > developer would like to see PowerBuilder go in the future. > > Do you want it to generate Java? Do you want it to compile to the MSIL > layer for .NET? Do you think it should focus more on features for > client server applications? Do you think it should incorporate more > features to make web development easier? Is it important to you that > PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume them) or does that > not interest you in the least? (These are just some ideas, I'd like to > hear others.) > > What do you think Sybase needs to do with PowerBuilder to make it > thrive and regain some of the glory it had a few years ago? > > I've read some of your messages about it being too late and I > understand the bitterness you may feel. Unfortunately I don't have a > time machine so I can't go back a few years and change Sybase's past > strategy with regard to PowerBuilder. We do have an opportunity now to > influence the direction that PB goes in and I'm asking for your ideas > to start that change now. > > Regards, > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I don't want to call PB "unusable", but I think it is scandalous that: 1) When you write an SQL statement in a script, the column names in the statement are checked by the compiler, but when you reference datawindow columns they are not, leaving you to find the error by running it. 2) Field lengths in datawindows are not checked by the compiler for conformance to the db, again leading to runtime errors when databases change. 3) The debugger doesn't know about datawindows at all. 4) Diagnostics from datawindows seem almost deliberately uninformative. These are problems that have been present for many years, and they are problems in PB's best differentiator! Datawindows ought to really shine by now. Someone ought to be ashamed. PB might have been "everybody's trusty database API". Could it still? I don't know. --Joe Landau "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message news:3c8e331c.11592198@199.93.177.77... > > >>Do you think it should focus more on features for client server applications? > >Yes, but first make the damn thing USABLE! Send all the high-tech geeks on a > >well deserved cruise and bring in a team of usability experts to perform > >disaster control. Before the geeks return set all their home pages to "The > >Interface Hall of Shame" ( http://www.iarchitect.com/shame.htm ). > > > Without causing this thread to degenerate into another enhancements > list, why do you think it is unusable? > > >Sorry, this isn't exactly bringing the discussion up to a higher level, is it? > > No, but if you intend to (and want to) continue to be a PB developer > then we need to listen to your complaints and respond where we can. > > Do others agree with Bill's comments? In your opinion Is PB unusable? > Does it have a horrible interface? > > Regards, > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
IMHO PowerBuilder is never going to happen the way it should if you can not buy it at a regular software outlet like CompUSA. How you do that, I don't know, but others do. If Delphi can, why not us?
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
And please the focus of marketing should not only be in the States but also in europe and other part of the world!!! Powerbuilder is a great tool for client server AND multi tier but if no manager has heard of it, it won't be used. If a non PB-programmer won't consider to step into PB and it's splendid datawindows it's because he doesn't know the product. And the first step is making both the managers and the non pb-developers warm. And that's where marketing needs to start!!! "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message news:EBdi2PkyBHA.318@forums.sybase.com... > I feel a need to jump in, and I don't want to step on any toes. Marketing is > an animla measured only by a company's bottom line. If you've done a good > job, your bottom line improves. I read probably 20 magazines a month. There > are probably a 1000 magazines out there. If Sybase advertises and pushes > their product heavily in 100 of those magazines and I don't happen to read > any of them, to me, the marketing sucks. > > That being said, I am lucky(???) enough to have gotten involved in some > small degree with the marketing folks at Sybase, and they are doing a lot. > We might not all notice it, one reason being that their marketing budget - > for all products - is less than Microsoft plans to spend on .Net alone. > That's the benefit of having a market capitilization near $300B vs. the > almost $2B for Sybase. Nothing you can do about that. > > On the other hand, I have seen Sybase ads, press releases, articles all over > the place, including several key online publishers like ZD Online, InfoWorld > et al. I opened up a PC Magazine the other day at my sons doctors office, > and the first page I opened to - a Sybase ad. They've had articles in > Computer Reseller News (that I've yet to actually find someone who actually > reads <g>), DM Review, Infoworld, of course PBDJ and JDJ among others. I > believe next months PBDJ will ship with the developer edition of EAServer > 4.1 inside. I've personally been asked to, and have participated in > interviews with Gartner, Giga, Forester and AMR Research, so they're getting > analysts involved. Their webinars have been well-received. There is actually > so much going on that it's hard to keep track of what's going on next, and > where. I believe that the penetration is being made. The first step was to > change the perception of Sybase as a database company to an infrastructure > company. That was not targeted at developers, but at the C-level of > management. The next step is to create awareness of their products, and that > is currently under way. We all want to see more advertising, and more > marketing, and if anyone has a good concrete idea, the marketing group would > love to hear it. I'd be happy to serve as the conduit between anyone here > and the marketing group, but I would suggest first talking to your sales > rep. Make them get involved at your company to show what Sybase has to > offer. I did this at a client, and i thought I was pretty clued up with what > Sybase does and what products they have. I was amazed with what I didn't > know about. > > The marketing push is going on. It may not be felt for a while, but I'm at > least convinced that stealth marketing has gone by the wayside. The > marketing group is aggresive, and, my favorite part, is willing to butt > heads with their opponents rather than take the high road anymore. > > > OK, off my soapbox here. Again, if anyone thinks they have some great ideas > to help promote the marketing, feel free to get in touch with me. I will not > hesitate to pass you on to the marketing person I have been dealing with. > > regards, > Bill Green > > > > "Woody" <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message > news:w7MAfvfyBHA.333@forums.sybase.com... > > >To thrive and regain glory? I think the answers are right here in the > user > > >group. The main answer is Marketing > > > > I too think marketing is key but I would take a different tack. You can't > > even buy PowerBuilder in a regular computer store like CompUSA. If it can > > be bought at all it has to be special ordered. > > > > Why not do adds in PC week. The comman man, and mere mortals, have to > know > > about the product. Sybase is so classy in other ways. The tech support > on > > line is great and they are obviously so professional in other ways. It's > > just that there is zero name recognition with regard to PowerBuilder. If > > they would advertise it as the best client/server tool on the market, it > > would be hard to refute. > > > > There's nothing other than Borland right now that fills that nitch. > VB.net > > can't be purchased with a report writer for less than $1,200.00. Delphi > is > > easily purchased at most big computer stores. > > > > By the way, tech support for how to make Crystal reports work with the > > integrated VS.net environment is allmost nill. There is no MS newsgroup > for > > this that is monitored by Crystal and only a few messages a day are > passing > > through Crystal's internal news group. My understanding is that Crystal > has > > pretty good support if you are willing to pay (again a big corporation > > thing) but if you want any support like we have on these newsgroup, good > > luck. > > > > A lot of good that does a developer who does not have a several thousand > > dollar technical support budget. > > > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
You could look at this as a benefit. We use dynamic dataobject assignment - often times passing in the dataobject name to a function that assigns it to the datawindow/store - this allows us to make truely generic code. How could the compiler check the columns? About when you create a datawindow/store dynamically on the fly at run time - how would the compiler know anything about it? The edit checks work okay if you are just using plain old vanilla datawindows on a window with vanilla access to it - but that is only a fraction of the possible use of datawindows. Having the compiler try to check all the dynamic uses would be an exercise in futility. "Joe Landau" <jrl@versaform.com> wrote in message news:O$7ZG8lyBHA.318@forums.sybase.com... > I don't want to call PB "unusable", but I think it is scandalous that: > > 1) When you write an SQL statement in a script, the column names in the > statement are checked by the compiler, but when > you reference datawindow columns they are not, leaving you to find the error > by running it. > > 2) Field lengths in datawindows are not checked by the compiler for > conformance to the db, again leading to runtime errors when databases > change. > > 3) The debugger doesn't know about datawindows at all. > > 4) Diagnostics from datawindows seem almost deliberately uninformative. > > These are problems that have been present for many years, and they are > problems in PB's best differentiator! Datawindows ought to really shine by > now. Someone ought to be ashamed. > > PB might have been "everybody's trusty database API". Could it still? I > don't know. > > --Joe Landau > > > > "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message > news:3c8e331c.11592198@199.93.177.77... > > > > >>Do you think it should focus more on features for client server > applications? > > >Yes, but first make the damn thing USABLE! Send all the high-tech geeks > on a > > >well deserved cruise and bring in a team of usability experts to perform > > >disaster control. Before the geeks return set all their home pages to > "The > > >Interface Hall of Shame" ( http://www.iarchitect.com/shame.htm ). > > > > > Without causing this thread to degenerate into another enhancements > > list, why do you think it is unusable? > > > > >Sorry, this isn't exactly bringing the discussion up to a higher level, > is it? > > > > No, but if you intend to (and want to) continue to be a PB developer > > then we need to listen to your complaints and respond where we can. > > > > Do others agree with Bill's comments? In your opinion Is PB unusable? > > Does it have a horrible interface? > > > > Regards, > > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
> Resources are limited. I'd hate to see Sybase devote a lot of > resources (time & money) to a feature that developers have little > interest in. It won't take a lot of effort for SYBASE to put back DPB. And that is a good feature if you plan to sell applications to small business. C.Burns "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> ha scritto nel messaggio news:3c8e3c50.13948336@199.93.177.77... > > >Dave, > > > >I'm still a newbie at all this and there are thing in PB that could be > >better, but I'm not sure on something. Is Sybase pulling away from > >client-server to catch up to what everyone else is doing? > > > > No not at all. Sybase recognizes that there is still a big demand out > their for a client server development tool. I also think that PB's web > and n-tier support is pretty solid (especially what is planned for PB > 9). I can't think of many other tools out there that let you do what > PB does in one package. > > We know what the analyst are saying PB should do. Product management > has ideas on where PB should go based on industry trends, etc. but I > want to hear what the people at the coal-face so to speak want. > > Resources are limited. I'd hate to see Sybase devote a lot of > resources (time & money) to a feature that developers have little > interest in. > > Regards, > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
See my comments inline: >> I don't want to call PB "unusable", but I think it is scandalous that: >> >> 1) When you write an SQL statement in a script, the column names in the >> statement are checked by the compiler, but when >> you reference datawindow columns they are not, leaving you to find the >error >> by running it. >> This sounds like an interesting new feature: the ability to request a syntax check for datawindows. I like it. >> 2) Field lengths in datawindows are not checked by the compiler for >> conformance to the db, again leading to runtime errors when databases >> change. Similar to 1), this sounds like an interesting new feature: the ability to request a syntax check for datawindows and *automatically* change field lengths. I dread increasing a column length because it takes a while to make these changes. I like it. >> >> 3) The debugger doesn't know about datawindows at all. There is a suggestion to let us view datawindow data in the debugger. Nice idea -- I support it. >> >> 4) Diagnostics from datawindows seem almost deliberately uninformative. >> ... Well, I have suggested that the message "Invalid datawindow row/column ..." be split into two messages, and that the message tell us the row / column which the code requested. Is it fair to say that you support that request? >> --Joe Landau ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I think it would be great too - something to catch my own programming miscues, but I just don't think it's practical. Consider this block of code: if ab_showFinancial then dw_1.dataobject = "d_customer_with_financial_info" else dw_1.dataobject = "d_customer_simple" end if dw_1.setTransObject(SQLCA) dw_1.insertRow(1) dw_1.setItemDecimal(1, "credit_limit", 1000) Assuming that ab_showFinancial is passed in as an argument (a situation I picked to provide a case in which the compiler whould have absolutely no idea what the value is) and "credit_limit" is on only one "d_customer_with_financial_info" - what datawindow would the complier pick to validate against - if it picked the first, you'ld get a false sense of security. Then complicate this further and say I pass in the dataobject and column to set set as arguments --- the compiler is even further in the dark as to what it's supposed to check. And how about this - I write the code, it validates it okay, then I change the datawindow and forget to change the code. Again - I am left with a false sense of security because the complier checked my code - unless you do this at build time also - which would really slow the build process down. Making it an optional request might answer some of my concerns, but it sounds to me like it would take time away from a more important modification to provide an edit check that would be useful only <some> of the time. I would love it if the compiler could catch all my programming bugs, but I would rather the time be spent working on some of the other features. (Note that I only speak to point 1 - the increased debugger knowledge of the DW and the improced messages are something I would support - the field length thing is something you could easily write a small app to check for you, and even correct). D "VictorReinhart" <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote in message news:#3QbqVqyBHA.318@forums.sybase.com... > See my comments inline: > > >> I don't want to call PB "unusable", but I think it is scandalous that: > >> > >> 1) When you write an SQL statement in a script, the column names in the > >> statement are checked by the compiler, but when > >> you reference datawindow columns they are not, leaving you to find the > >error > >> by running it. > >> > > This sounds like an interesting new feature: the ability to request a syntax > check for datawindows. I like it. > > >> 2) Field lengths in datawindows are not checked by the compiler for > >> conformance to the db, again leading to runtime errors when databases > >> change. > > Similar to 1), this sounds like an interesting new feature: the ability to > request a syntax check for datawindows and *automatically* change field lengths. > I dread increasing a column length because it takes a while to make these > changes. I like it. > > >> > >> 3) The debugger doesn't know about datawindows at all. > > There is a suggestion to let us view datawindow data in the debugger. Nice idea > -- I support it. > > >> > >> 4) Diagnostics from datawindows seem almost deliberately uninformative. > >> ... > > Well, I have suggested that the message "Invalid datawindow row/column ...." be > split into two messages, and that the message tell us the row / column which the > code requested. Is it fair to say that you support that request? > > >> --Joe Landau > > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Wow, a couple of days without visiting this newsgroup and there's a good solid half hour of reading through posts to do.... First, Dave's original post on this thread is great - and we certainly want your input for direction and key features, and we need to know what you're using PB for now, and how you see it being used in your organizations in the future. Since there are many different types of users out there, there should be a variety of answers. We need to know if you see roadblocks to PB being used in the foreseeable future in your organization, and what changes, etc, are need in the product to help keep PB as a vital tool in your development toolset. Let me just clarify a few things- PB will continue to focus on client/server development. There are a lot of customers out there who will continue to use PB for C/S development, and there are many applications that do not need to go to the web. C/S developers need to be productive and deliver robust applications quickly - that's what we'll continue to focus on in this area. PB will work with 3rd party application servers. The first phase will be acting as a client to WebSphere and WebLogic, the second will be to deploy into those servers. We will continue to work with EAServer as well - that's still the easiest and quickest way for PB customers to quickly move to the web and a distributed architecture. We will be rebuilding some of our core functionality. PB is over 10 years old, and some of its infrastructure needs to be modified/rebuilt. This is true for any software product; PB was originally developed to address a different programming environment before the many languages and standards we have today existed. This is work we are currently doing, and it's a work in progress, but it's not something that can sell new versions of PB - it's not a sexy new feature to write about like XML is. Thanks to Bill Green for his fabulous post in this thread - he's right on the money with a lot of his comments and insight. Someone else made a comment about how PB "can't compete against Java, C++, .Net." That's the beauty of PB - we don't need to compete with it, but rather we will remain an open tool and allow you to work with the other languages and platforms in your business environment. With PB, you don't have to choose between .NET or J2EE, but you can instead continue to be as productive as possible, developing in a tool you're familiar with, while the complexities of new architectures, object models, and standards are abstracted. Also, thanks to Anders for the forward looking comment regarding Web Services! We are really excited for the future of PB. Keep the cards and letters coming :) Sue Dunnell PB Product Manager "Anders �gsnes" wrote: > Seems slike nobody in this discussion applaude the mentioning of Pb support > for web-services... I do - I'd like to use them, create them and maintain > them in my Pb! > > In the future, I guess that XML web services seems to be THE way of handling > net-wide structured information exchange. > > Anders �gnses > Funn as > Narvik > > "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message > news:3c8e238d.7608760@199.93.177.77... > > That subject line should get your attention. <g> > > > > I'm very pleased with the participation in this group. We've obviously > > provided a well for a very thirsty group of developers! > > > > As you may or may not know, PB 9 is about to go into Beta and the > > feature set has pretty much been frozen. I know a lot of these > > requests are for very useful features and hopefully many will some day > > be incorporated into PB. I don't know what can be done for PB 9 at > > this point. Just don't want to falsely get people's hopes up. > > > > What I would like to do, is raise the discussion to a higher level of > > abstraction. Instead of specifics (please feel free to continue to > > post those too) I would like to get a feel for where you, as a PB > > developer would like to see PowerBuilder go in the future. > > > > Do you want it to generate Java? Do you want it to compile to the MSIL > > layer for .NET? Do you think it should focus more on features for > > client server applications? Do you think it should incorporate more > > features to make web development easier? Is it important to you that > > PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume them) or does that > > not interest you in the least? (These are just some ideas, I'd like to > > hear others.) > > > > What do you think Sybase needs to do with PowerBuilder to make it > > thrive and regain some of the glory it had a few years ago? > > > > I've read some of your messages about it being too late and I > > understand the bitterness you may feel. Unfortunately I don't have a > > time machine so I can't go back a few years and change Sybase's past > > strategy with regard to PowerBuilder. We do have an opportunity now to > > influence the direction that PB goes in and I'm asking for your ideas > > to start that change now. > > > > Regards, > > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Back in its heyday, I saw PowerBuilder Desktop on the shelves at CompUSA. I think Sybase needs to adopt the MS strategy: Get an inexpensive version of the product into many people's hands. It will "bubble up" to management's attention. I just showed PB today to someone here, and he loves it! The key is: he *saw* it! Also, I think Sybase should re-think the PB Desktop strategy. I don't think it's a good idea to limit the product to only connect to "desktop" databases. Doing that makes no sense. Read the posts. A lot of people are confused and disappointed with this limitation. We need to encourage the pioneers at big companies to spend about $200 to buy PB Desktop on their own, then have success using the product. It *must* connect to Oracle, Sybase, SQL Server! People need to see the DataWindow -- the shining star of PB. If they can't connect to their Oracle Database, that won't happen. Please, please, please, limit the product another way. Marketing happens many ways: 1) Advertising. Important, but very expensive. This should *not* be Sybase's primary strategy, but rather, the third strategy. 2) Leading-Edge Developers People who take a chance on the $200 PB box at Comp USA. This *should* be *the* primary strategy. 3) Students People who get PB almost free at school, and take a class. This *should* be Sybase's secondary marketing strategy. 4) User Groups Wine and dine your user group presidents. We need more of them. That said, I would suggest we limit PB Desktop in other ways: a) Allow *full* connectivity b) Disable some advanced feature, such as Treeviews, or Dynamic SQL. Pick something which won't kill the project immediately. c) Help me here, folks! My humble opinion. >That being said, I am lucky(???) enough to have gotten involved in some >small degree with the marketing folks at Sybase, and they are doing a lot. >We might not all notice it, one reason being that their marketing budget - >for all products - is less than Microsoft plans to spend on .Net alone. >That's the benefit of having a market capitilization near $300B vs. the >almost $2B for Sybase. Nothing you can do about that. ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
How about seminars targeted at customers - show up at their door, offer them free food - spend a lunch hour demoing the PB and what it can do - kind of like the Build The Future seminar on speed. "VictorReinhart" <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote in message news:EnXmhtqyBHA.204@forums.sybase.com... > Back in its heyday, I saw PowerBuilder Desktop on the shelves at CompUSA. I > think Sybase needs to adopt the MS strategy: Get an inexpensive version of the > product into many people's hands. It will "bubble up" to management's > attention. I just showed PB today to someone here, and he loves it! The key > is: he *saw* it! > > Also, I think Sybase should re-think the PB Desktop strategy. I don't think > it's a good idea to limit the product to only connect to "desktop" databases. > Doing that makes no sense. Read the posts. A lot of people are confused and > disappointed with this limitation. > > We need to encourage the pioneers at big companies to spend about $200 to buy PB > Desktop on their own, then have success using the product. It *must* connect to > Oracle, Sybase, SQL Server! People need to see the DataWindow -- the shining > star of PB. If they can't connect to their Oracle Database, that won't happen. > Please, please, please, limit the product another way. > > Marketing happens many ways: > > 1) Advertising. > Important, but very expensive. This should *not* be Sybase's primary strategy, > but rather, the third strategy. > > 2) Leading-Edge Developers > People who take a chance on the $200 PB box at Comp USA. This *should* be *the* > primary strategy. > > 3) Students > People who get PB almost free at school, and take a class. This *should* be > Sybase's secondary marketing strategy. > > 4) User Groups > Wine and dine your user group presidents. We need more of them. > > That said, I would suggest we limit PB Desktop in other ways: > a) Allow *full* connectivity > b) Disable some advanced feature, such as Treeviews, or Dynamic SQL. Pick > something which won't kill the project immediately. > c) Help me here, folks! > > My humble opinion. > > >That being said, I am lucky(???) enough to have gotten involved in some > >small degree with the marketing folks at Sybase, and they are doing a lot. > >We might not all notice it, one reason being that their marketing budget - > >for all products - is less than Microsoft plans to spend on .Net alone. > >That's the benefit of having a market capitilization near $300B vs. the > >almost $2B for Sybase. Nothing you can do about that. > > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I fully support you here. -- Terry Dykstra (TeamSybase) Please state PB / OS / DB versions in your post. MySybase http://my.sybase.com/mysybase Search Google: http://groups.google.com "VictorReinhart" <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote in message news:EnXmhtqyBHA.204@forums.sybase.com... > Back in its heyday, I saw PowerBuilder Desktop on the shelves at CompUSA. I > think Sybase needs to adopt the MS strategy: Get an inexpensive version of the > product into many people's hands. It will "bubble up" to management's > attention. I just showed PB today to someone here, and he loves it! The key > is: he *saw* it! > > Also, I think Sybase should re-think the PB Desktop strategy. I don't think > it's a good idea to limit the product to only connect to "desktop" databases. > Doing that makes no sense. Read the posts. A lot of people are confused and > disappointed with this limitation. > > We need to encourage the pioneers at big companies to spend about $200 to buy PB > Desktop on their own, then have success using the product. It *must* connect to > Oracle, Sybase, SQL Server! People need to see the DataWindow -- the shining > star of PB. If they can't connect to their Oracle Database, that won't happen. > Please, please, please, limit the product another way. > > Marketing happens many ways: > > 1) Advertising. > Important, but very expensive. This should *not* be Sybase's primary strategy, > but rather, the third strategy. > > 2) Leading-Edge Developers > People who take a chance on the $200 PB box at Comp USA. This *should* be *the* > primary strategy. > > 3) Students > People who get PB almost free at school, and take a class. This *should* be > Sybase's secondary marketing strategy. > > 4) User Groups > Wine and dine your user group presidents. We need more of them. > > That said, I would suggest we limit PB Desktop in other ways: > a) Allow *full* connectivity > b) Disable some advanced feature, such as Treeviews, or Dynamic SQL. Pick > something which won't kill the project immediately. > c) Help me here, folks! > > My humble opinion. > > >That being said, I am lucky(???) enough to have gotten involved in some > >small degree with the marketing folks at Sybase, and they are doing a lot. > >We might not all notice it, one reason being that their marketing budget - > >for all products - is less than Microsoft plans to spend on .Net alone. > >That's the benefit of having a market capitilization near $300B vs. the > >almost $2B for Sybase. Nothing you can do about that. > > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Tell it Victor! I went looking around Sybase's eshop area and about had a cow when I saw the price difference between desktop and professional. I agree - why can't desktop connect to oracle? Sure we all don't have bizillions of $ to have Oracle enterprise. I saw this somehere but can you connect to oracle personal in PB (any version) now? I'm fortunate to have my client provide us with PB Enterprise and I certainly don't have a couple of thousand lying around at home to buy that version for me at home. I think more emphasis in schools would certainly help. Give academic pricing on PB, let em try and they'll find out how cool it can be. What I see in school (at least where my husband is going), the ones to know = C++, Java and Visual Basic. There are classes for Oracle..gotta have some for PB.. My 2 cents -- Evita R. Chapa Senior Systems Analyst Command Technlogies, Inc "VictorReinhart" <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote in message news:EnXmhtqyBHA.204@forums.sybase.com... > Back in its heyday, I saw PowerBuilder Desktop on the shelves at CompUSA. I > think Sybase needs to adopt the MS strategy: Get an inexpensive version of the > product into many people's hands. It will "bubble up" to management's > attention. I just showed PB today to someone here, and he loves it! The key > is: he *saw* it! > > Also, I think Sybase should re-think the PB Desktop strategy. I don't think > it's a good idea to limit the product to only connect to "desktop" databases. > Doing that makes no sense. Read the posts. A lot of people are confused and > disappointed with this limitation. > > We need to encourage the pioneers at big companies to spend about $200 to buy PB > Desktop on their own, then have success using the product. It *must* connect to > Oracle, Sybase, SQL Server! People need to see the DataWindow -- the shining > star of PB. If they can't connect to their Oracle Database, that won't happen. > Please, please, please, limit the product another way. > > Marketing happens many ways: > > 1) Advertising. > Important, but very expensive. This should *not* be Sybase's primary strategy, > but rather, the third strategy. > > 2) Leading-Edge Developers > People who take a chance on the $200 PB box at Comp USA. This *should* be *the* > primary strategy. > > 3) Students > People who get PB almost free at school, and take a class. This *should* be > Sybase's secondary marketing strategy. > > 4) User Groups > Wine and dine your user group presidents. We need more of them. > > That said, I would suggest we limit PB Desktop in other ways: > a) Allow *full* connectivity > b) Disable some advanced feature, such as Treeviews, or Dynamic SQL. Pick > something which won't kill the project immediately. > c) Help me here, folks! > > My humble opinion. > > >That being said, I am lucky(???) enough to have gotten involved in some > >small degree with the marketing folks at Sybase, and they are doing a lot. > >We might not all notice it, one reason being that their marketing budget - > >for all products - is less than Microsoft plans to spend on .Net alone. > >That's the benefit of having a market capitilization near $300B vs. the > >almost $2B for Sybase. Nothing you can do about that. > > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
>Also, I think Sybase should re-think the PB Desktop strategy. I don't think >it's a good idea to limit the product to only connect to "desktop" databases. >Doing that makes no sense. Read the posts. A lot of people are confused and >disappointed with this limitation. Compared to VB, PowerBuilder already has a very good solution with desktop. Others may not be aware but the 100.00 version of VB.net has no intigrated access to to their report writer, Crystal Reports. This, in my opinion will cost MS a great deal in the long run.
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Thanks, Bruce. The page says someone must invite you to become a member of Team Sybase. Are you inviting me? >>I'd like to know more about Team PowerSoft. These folks are *so* helpful on >>the newsgroups. What does Sybase do for these folks? How does one join? > >http://www.teamsybase.com > > > >Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] >http://www.teamsybase.com >http://www.needhim.org ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
>and we need to know what you're using PB >for now, and how you see it being used in your organizations in the future. >Since there are many different types of users out there, there should be a >variety of answers I will take you at your word and tell you plainly that I am a developer who works out of my office/home in Northern California. I have been doing this steadily for 15 years. Most of my time is spent at my office writing two-tier client/server apps. My client(s) have the same program on their network at their office. Most of the clients I work with have a local area network of about 20 work stations or less. Occasionally I go to the clients to install or tweak what's already in place. When there are changes (which is frequent) I send them via PC Anywhere. Fairly pleasant using DSL. With fax machine, telephones and fast broadband, it is not necessary to be on site all that often. One client in particular is a Truck Driving School. The school is headquartered in northern California, with eight campus locations in the western part of the united states. Though I see the time coming, at present we do not worry about writing an application for the web. If we could, we would have stayed with our original applicaiton which was written in Paradox for windows. Because of lost market share for Paradox and because my son in law is a PB programmer who works for Charles Schaub, I made the switch some five years ago. We are glad that we made the switch to something more robust and with more horse power. Adaptive Server Anywhere is our backend solution. The truck school considered going to canned software recently and found a package that did 60% of what they already have, but thought that since it was canned, it would be substantially less expensive. We discovered that it sells for a half million dollars. Custom software is a necessity for this company and good, quick and easy client/server is at the core. In the future, if it's really not too hard, we would like to have our satelite locations see and enter *some* data in real time, but again that is in the future. PowerBuilder solves a really big need for the company right now with just client/Server. It is my opinion that there are tens of thousands of companies just in my immediate area that are in the same position. That is, they are businesses bringing in 10 to 40 million dollars a year in revenue with custom client/server at the backbone of what they need for tracking their data.
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Well to be honest with you, I don't know if PB Desktop was a good idea to begin with. (Line extensions rarely help a product). Honestly, the revenue from a low cost product like PB Desktop won't cover the R&D needed to move PB forward, and the cost of supporting such a product probably outweighs the revenue it brings in. I know people don't like to pay a lot of money for things, but really as professional software developers, we need to be willing to invest in our tool set. Back in 1993 I paid over $2,000 for a copy of PowerBuilder Standard. I hated to part with the money, but I knew that it was an investment in my career and my future. That was one of the best investments I have ever made. If I could have seen 5-8 years into the future to see where I would be financially and career wise after learning PowerBuilder I would have paid five times as much for PB and it still would have been a bargain. The bottom line is, if PB doesn't make money for Sybase, they won't support it and invest in it. That is true of any company (at least one that wants to stay in business). Sybase is making the investment in PowerBuilder expecting that it will make money for them. Making PB Desktop more like the Enterprise version would, in my opinion, seriously erode PB revenue. Regards, Dave Fish [TeamSybase] On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:23:16 -0500, "VictorReinhart" <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote: >Back in its heyday, I saw PowerBuilder Desktop on the shelves at CompUSA. I >think Sybase needs to adopt the MS strategy: Get an inexpensive version of the >product into many people's hands. It will "bubble up" to management's >attention. I just showed PB today to someone here, and he loves it! The key >is: he *saw* it! > >Also, I think Sybase should re-think the PB Desktop strategy. I don't think >it's a good idea to limit the product to only connect to "desktop" databases. >Doing that makes no sense. Read the posts. A lot of people are confused and >disappointed with this limitation. > >We need to encourage the pioneers at big companies to spend about $200 to buy PB >Desktop on their own, then have success using the product. It *must* connect to >Oracle, Sybase, SQL Server! People need to see the DataWindow -- the shining >star of PB. If they can't connect to their Oracle Database, that won't happen. >Please, please, please, limit the product another way. > >Marketing happens many ways: > >1) Advertising. >Important, but very expensive. This should *not* be Sybase's primary strategy, >but rather, the third strategy. > >2) Leading-Edge Developers >People who take a chance on the $200 PB box at Comp USA. This *should* be *the* >primary strategy. > >3) Students >People who get PB almost free at school, and take a class. This *should* be >Sybase's secondary marketing strategy. > >4) User Groups >Wine and dine your user group presidents. We need more of them. > >That said, I would suggest we limit PB Desktop in other ways: >a) Allow *full* connectivity >b) Disable some advanced feature, such as Treeviews, or Dynamic SQL. Pick >something which won't kill the project immediately. >c) Help me here, folks! > >My humble opinion. > >>That being said, I am lucky(???) enough to have gotten involved in some >>small degree with the marketing folks at Sybase, and they are doing a lot. >>We might not all notice it, one reason being that their marketing budget - >>for all products - is less than Microsoft plans to spend on .Net alone. >>That's the benefit of having a market capitilization near $300B vs. the >>almost $2B for Sybase. Nothing you can do about that. > > >---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- >http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I think you make some really good points about the need for profitability with regard to PB. Sybase isn't doing this for kicks and companies that solve serious problems with Sybase software should be willing to pay for it. But if you drop Desktop, in my opinion, you are going to shoot yourself in the foot. Your greatest salesmen are developers, like myself, who are familiar with and love the product. There is no way I would have paid $2,000 for PB when I first started. It was gamble enough just to take the time to consider the product. Once I understood and saw it's power and benefit to myself and to my client the story changed. Desktop probably won't make Sybase any money directly, but in my opinion it will make the company much more, long term. I don't mind paying $1,200.00 dollars for drivers to big databases, but I need something inexpensive for demonstration purposes and to help get people into the game. "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message news:3c8f89e1.13609559@199.93.177.77... > Well to be honest with you, I don't know if PB Desktop was a good > idea to begin with. (Line extensions rarely help a product). > > Honestly, the revenue from a low cost product like PB Desktop won't > cover the R&D needed to move PB forward, and the cost of supporting > such a product probably outweighs the revenue it brings in. > > I know people don't like to pay a lot of money for things, but really > as professional software developers, we need to be willing to invest > in our tool set. Back in 1993 I paid over $2,000 for a copy of > PowerBuilder Standard. I hated to part with the money, but I knew that > it was an investment in my career and my future. That was one of the > best investments I have ever made. If I could have seen 5-8 years into > the future to see where I would be financially and career wise after > learning PowerBuilder I would have paid five times as much for PB and > it still would have been a bargain. > > The bottom line is, if PB doesn't make money for Sybase, they won't > support it and invest in it. That is true of any company (at least one > that wants to stay in business). > > Sybase is making the investment in PowerBuilder expecting that it will > make money for them. Making PB Desktop more like the Enterprise > version would, in my opinion, seriously erode PB revenue. > > Regards, > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > > On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:23:16 -0500, "VictorReinhart" > <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote: > > >Back in its heyday, I saw PowerBuilder Desktop on the shelves at CompUSA. I > >think Sybase needs to adopt the MS strategy: Get an inexpensive version of the > >product into many people's hands. It will "bubble up" to management's > >attention. I just showed PB today to someone here, and he loves it! The key > >is: he *saw* it! > > > >Also, I think Sybase should re-think the PB Desktop strategy. I don't think > >it's a good idea to limit the product to only connect to "desktop" databases. > >Doing that makes no sense. Read the posts. A lot of people are confused and > >disappointed with this limitation. > > > >We need to encourage the pioneers at big companies to spend about $200 to buy PB > >Desktop on their own, then have success using the product. It *must* connect to > >Oracle, Sybase, SQL Server! People need to see the DataWindow -- the shining > >star of PB. If they can't connect to their Oracle Database, that won't happen. > >Please, please, please, limit the product another way. > > > >Marketing happens many ways: > > > >1) Advertising. > >Important, but very expensive. This should *not* be Sybase's primary strategy, > >but rather, the third strategy. > > > >2) Leading-Edge Developers > >People who take a chance on the $200 PB box at Comp USA. This *should* be *the* > >primary strategy. > > > >3) Students > >People who get PB almost free at school, and take a class. This *should* be > >Sybase's secondary marketing strategy. > > > >4) User Groups > >Wine and dine your user group presidents. We need more of them. > > > >That said, I would suggest we limit PB Desktop in other ways: > >a) Allow *full* connectivity > >b) Disable some advanced feature, such as Treeviews, or Dynamic SQL. Pick > >something which won't kill the project immediately. > >c) Help me here, folks! > > > >My humble opinion. > > > >>That being said, I am lucky(???) enough to have gotten involved in some > >>small degree with the marketing folks at Sybase, and they are doing a lot. > >>We might not all notice it, one reason being that their marketing budget - > >>for all products - is less than Microsoft plans to spend on .Net alone. > >>That's the benefit of having a market capitilization near $300B vs. the > >>almost $2B for Sybase. Nothing you can do about that. > > > > > >---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > >http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
What about longer evaluation periods? Right now you can get a 30-day trial - what about 90-120 days? That would be enough time for new development teams to get a proof of concept and build confidence that PB will work (plus have them do enough development to "lock them in" to PB) and also ensure that Sybase get's their revenue... "Woody" <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message news:d2CAUkryBHA.206@forums.sybase.com... > I think you make some really good points about the need for profitability > with regard to PB. Sybase isn't doing this for kicks and companies that > solve serious problems with Sybase software should be willing to pay for it. > But if you drop Desktop, in my opinion, you are going to shoot yourself in > the foot. > > Your greatest salesmen are developers, like myself, who are familiar with > and love the product. There is no way I would have paid $2,000 for PB when > I first started. It was gamble enough just to take the time to consider the > product. Once I understood and saw it's power and benefit to myself and to > my client the story changed. Desktop probably won't make Sybase any money > directly, but in my opinion it will make the company much more, long term. > I don't mind paying $1,200.00 dollars for drivers to big databases, but I > need something inexpensive for demonstration purposes and to help get people > into the game. > > > "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message > news:3c8f89e1.13609559@199.93.177.77... > > Well to be honest with you, I don't know if PB Desktop was a good > > idea to begin with. (Line extensions rarely help a product). > > > > Honestly, the revenue from a low cost product like PB Desktop won't > > cover the R&D needed to move PB forward, and the cost of supporting > > such a product probably outweighs the revenue it brings in. > > > > I know people don't like to pay a lot of money for things, but really > > as professional software developers, we need to be willing to invest > > in our tool set. Back in 1993 I paid over $2,000 for a copy of > > PowerBuilder Standard. I hated to part with the money, but I knew that > > it was an investment in my career and my future. That was one of the > > best investments I have ever made. If I could have seen 5-8 years into > > the future to see where I would be financially and career wise after > > learning PowerBuilder I would have paid five times as much for PB and > > it still would have been a bargain. > > > > The bottom line is, if PB doesn't make money for Sybase, they won't > > support it and invest in it. That is true of any company (at least one > > that wants to stay in business). > > > > Sybase is making the investment in PowerBuilder expecting that it will > > make money for them. Making PB Desktop more like the Enterprise > > version would, in my opinion, seriously erode PB revenue. > > > > Regards, > > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > > > > On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:23:16 -0500, "VictorReinhart" > > <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote: > > > > >Back in its heyday, I saw PowerBuilder Desktop on the shelves at CompUSA. > I > > >think Sybase needs to adopt the MS strategy: Get an inexpensive version > of the > > >product into many people's hands. It will "bubble up" to management's > > >attention. I just showed PB today to someone here, and he loves it! The > key > > >is: he *saw* it! > > > > > >Also, I think Sybase should re-think the PB Desktop strategy. I don't > think > > >it's a good idea to limit the product to only connect to "desktop" > databases. > > >Doing that makes no sense. Read the posts. A lot of people are confused > and > > >disappointed with this limitation. > > > > > >We need to encourage the pioneers at big companies to spend about $200 to > buy PB > > >Desktop on their own, then have success using the product. It *must* > connect to > > >Oracle, Sybase, SQL Server! People need to see the DataWindow -- the > shining > > >star of PB. If they can't connect to their Oracle Database, that won't > happen. > > >Please, please, please, limit the product another way. > > > > > >Marketing happens many ways: > > > > > >1) Advertising. > > >Important, but very expensive. This should *not* be Sybase's primary > strategy, > > >but rather, the third strategy. > > > > > >2) Leading-Edge Developers > > >People who take a chance on the $200 PB box at Comp USA. This *should* > be *the* > > >primary strategy. > > > > > >3) Students > > >People who get PB almost free at school, and take a class. This *should* > be > > >Sybase's secondary marketing strategy. > > > > > >4) User Groups > > >Wine and dine your user group presidents. We need more of them. > > > > > >That said, I would suggest we limit PB Desktop in other ways: > > >a) Allow *full* connectivity > > >b) Disable some advanced feature, such as Treeviews, or Dynamic SQL. > Pick > > >something which won't kill the project immediately. > > >c) Help me here, folks! > > > > > >My humble opinion. > > > > > >>That being said, I am lucky(???) enough to have gotten involved in some > > >>small degree with the marketing folks at Sybase, and they are doing a > lot. > > >>We might not all notice it, one reason being that their marketing > budget - > > >>for all products - is less than Microsoft plans to spend on .Net alone. > > >>That's the benefit of having a market capitilization near $300B vs. the > > >>almost $2B for Sybase. Nothing you can do about that. > > > > > > > > >---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > > >http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Good idea Daniel. 30 days really isn't long enough. Regards, Dave Fish [TeamSybase] On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:05:06 -0500, "Daniel Coppersmith" <daniel@N.0.S.P.A.M_infrontsoftware.com> wrote: >What about longer evaluation periods? Right now you can get a 30-day >trial - what about 90-120 days? That would be enough time for new >development teams to get a proof of concept and build confidence that PB >will work (plus have them do enough development to "lock them in" to PB) and >also ensure that Sybase get's their revenue... > > > >"Woody" <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message >news:d2CAUkryBHA.206@forums.sybase.com... >> I think you make some really good points about the need for profitability >> with regard to PB. Sybase isn't doing this for kicks and companies that >> solve serious problems with Sybase software should be willing to pay for >it. >> But if you drop Desktop, in my opinion, you are going to shoot yourself in >> the foot. >> >> Your greatest salesmen are developers, like myself, who are familiar with >> and love the product. There is no way I would have paid $2,000 for PB >when >> I first started. It was gamble enough just to take the time to consider >the >> product. Once I understood and saw it's power and benefit to myself and >to >> my client the story changed. Desktop probably won't make Sybase any money >> directly, but in my opinion it will make the company much more, long term. >> I don't mind paying $1,200.00 dollars for drivers to big databases, but I >> need something inexpensive for demonstration purposes and to help get >people >> into the game. >> >> >> "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message >> news:3c8f89e1.13609559@199.93.177.77... >> > Well to be honest with you, I don't know if PB Desktop was a good >> > idea to begin with. (Line extensions rarely help a product). >> > >> > Honestly, the revenue from a low cost product like PB Desktop won't >> > cover the R&D needed to move PB forward, and the cost of supporting >> > such a product probably outweighs the revenue it brings in. >> > >> > I know people don't like to pay a lot of money for things, but really >> > as professional software developers, we need to be willing to invest >> > in our tool set. Back in 1993 I paid over $2,000 for a copy of >> > PowerBuilder Standard. I hated to part with the money, but I knew that >> > it was an investment in my career and my future. That was one of the >> > best investments I have ever made. If I could have seen 5-8 years into >> > the future to see where I would be financially and career wise after >> > learning PowerBuilder I would have paid five times as much for PB and >> > it still would have been a bargain. >> > >> > The bottom line is, if PB doesn't make money for Sybase, they won't >> > support it and invest in it. That is true of any company (at least one >> > that wants to stay in business). >> > >> > Sybase is making the investment in PowerBuilder expecting that it will >> > make money for them. Making PB Desktop more like the Enterprise >> > version would, in my opinion, seriously erode PB revenue. >> > >> > Regards, >> > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] >> > >> > On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:23:16 -0500, "VictorReinhart" >> > <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote: >> > >> > >Back in its heyday, I saw PowerBuilder Desktop on the shelves at >CompUSA. >> I >> > >think Sybase needs to adopt the MS strategy: Get an inexpensive >version >> of the >> > >product into many people's hands. It will "bubble up" to management's >> > >attention. I just showed PB today to someone here, and he loves it! >The >> key >> > >is: he *saw* it! >> > > >> > >Also, I think Sybase should re-think the PB Desktop strategy. I don't >> think >> > >it's a good idea to limit the product to only connect to "desktop" >> databases. >> > >Doing that makes no sense. Read the posts. A lot of people are >confused >> and >> > >disappointed with this limitation. >> > > >> > >We need to encourage the pioneers at big companies to spend about $200 >to >> buy PB >> > >Desktop on their own, then have success using the product. It *must* >> connect to >> > >Oracle, Sybase, SQL Server! People need to see the DataWindow -- the >> shining >> > >star of PB. If they can't connect to their Oracle Database, that won't >> happen. >> > >Please, please, please, limit the product another way. >> > > >> > >Marketing happens many ways: >> > > >> > >1) Advertising. >> > >Important, but very expensive. This should *not* be Sybase's primary >> strategy, >> > >but rather, the third strategy. >> > > >> > >2) Leading-Edge Developers >> > >People who take a chance on the $200 PB box at Comp USA. This *should* >> be *the* >> > >primary strategy. >> > > >> > >3) Students >> > >People who get PB almost free at school, and take a class. This >*should* >> be >> > >Sybase's secondary marketing strategy. >> > > >> > >4) User Groups >> > >Wine and dine your user group presidents. We need more of them. >> > > >> > >That said, I would suggest we limit PB Desktop in other ways: >> > >a) Allow *full* connectivity >> > >b) Disable some advanced feature, such as Treeviews, or Dynamic SQL. >> Pick >> > >something which won't kill the project immediately. >> > >c) Help me here, folks! >> > > >> > >My humble opinion. >> > > >> > >>That being said, I am lucky(???) enough to have gotten involved in >some >> > >>small degree with the marketing folks at Sybase, and they are doing a >> lot. >> > >>We might not all notice it, one reason being that their marketing >> budget - >> > >>for all products - is less than Microsoft plans to spend on .Net >alone. >> > >>That's the benefit of having a market capitilization near $300B vs. >the >> > >>almost $2B for Sybase. Nothing you can do about that. >> > > >> > > >> > >---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- >> > >http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp >> > >> >> > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Folks like CompUSA will start stocking it (and Borders will start stocking books on PB) when they sense there is a demand for such. So the issue is to create 'momentum' again, and the CompUSAs and Borders will take care of the rest. Bruce 'former hardware/software sales guy' Armstrong On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:11:18 -0800, in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion Woody <woody@splawns.com> wrote: >IMHO PowerBuilder is never going to happen the way it should if you can not >buy it at a regular software outlet like CompUSA. How you do that, I don't >know, but others do. If Delphi can, why not us? > > > > Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] http://www.teamsybase.com http://www.needhim.org ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I bet so too. VB has no true report interface and what you can do for a report certainly lacks functionality unless you have something like Crystal. Evita "Woody" <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message news:JKdInCryBHA.204@forums.sybase.com... > >Also, I think Sybase should re-think the PB Desktop strategy. I don't > think > >it's a good idea to limit the product to only connect to "desktop" > databases. > >Doing that makes no sense. Read the posts. A lot of people are confused > and > >disappointed with this limitation. > > Compared to VB, PowerBuilder already has a very good solution with desktop. > Others may not be aware but the 100.00 version of VB.net has no intigrated > access to to their report writer, Crystal Reports. This, in my opinion will > cost MS a great deal in the long run. > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Actually, you asked about TeamPowersoft (now called TeamSybase) and so I just gave you a link to something that would explain a little bit about us. You have to be *real* active to actually get an invite, and both quantity and quality are important. The average message count for TeamSybase members from January 1st of this year to today is 165 posts (with characters like Jim Egan posting over 500 messages in that period). On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:00:25 -0500, in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion VictorReinhart <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote: >Thanks, Bruce. > >The page says someone must invite you to become a member of Team Sybase. Are >you inviting me? > >>>I'd like to know more about Team PowerSoft. These folks are *so* helpful on >>>the newsgroups. What does Sybase do for these folks? How does one join? >> >>http://www.teamsybase.com >> >> >> >>Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] >>http://www.teamsybase.com >>http://www.needhim.org > >---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- >http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] http://www.teamsybase.com http://www.needhim.org ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Jim is a superstar! He's out of control! On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:41:38 -0500, "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> wrote: >Actually, you asked about TeamPowersoft (now called TeamSybase) and so I >just gave you a link to something that would explain a little bit about us. > >You have to be *real* active to actually get an invite, and both quantity and >quality are important. The average message count for TeamSybase members from >January 1st of this year to today is 165 posts (with characters like Jim Egan >posting over 500 messages in that period). > >On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:00:25 -0500, > in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion >VictorReinhart <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote: >>Thanks, Bruce. >> >>The page says someone must invite you to become a member of Team Sybase. Are >>you inviting me? >> >>>>I'd like to know more about Team PowerSoft. These folks are *so* helpful on >>>>the newsgroups. What does Sybase do for these folks? How does one join? >>> >>>http://www.teamsybase.com >>> >>> >>> >>>Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] >>>http://www.teamsybase.com >>>http://www.needhim.org >> >>---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- >>http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp > >Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] >http://www.teamsybase.com >http://www.needhim.org > >---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- >http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
And, it's so hard to get authors to commit to writing a book, when the product comes out with a new, enhanced IDE every 12-18 months... By the time you understand it yourself, write the book, edit it and publish it, the next version comes out and obviates all your work!!! -- Paul A. Horan[TeamSybase] VCI Springfield, MA www.vcisolutions.com "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> wrote in message news:wzxm4tryBHA.333@forums.sybase.com... > Folks like CompUSA will start stocking it (and Borders will start stocking > books on PB) when they sense there is a demand for such. So the issue is > to create 'momentum' again, and the CompUSAs and Borders will take care of > the rest. > > Bruce 'former hardware/software sales guy' Armstrong > > On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:11:18 -0800, > in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion > Woody <woody@splawns.com> wrote: > >IMHO PowerBuilder is never going to happen the way it should if you can not > >buy it at a regular software outlet like CompUSA. How you do that, I don't > >know, but others do. If Delphi can, why not us? > > > > > > > > > > Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] > http://www.teamsybase.com > http://www.needhim.org > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Here's the top ten from the general newsgroup. The list is not perfectly accurate, because people have changed their signature over time. But the list still gives you an idea of who the motor-mouths are <g>. terry voth 3592 roy kiesler [teamsybase] 3249 simon caldwell 2468 bruce armstrong [teamsybase] 2096 terry dykstra 1975 philip salgannik 1651 bill green[teamsybase] 1180 eric aling [teamps] 1090 eric aling [teamsybase] 1020 jim o'neil [sybase] 1015 "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message news:3c8fa7fa.21314308@199.93.177.77... > Jim is a superstar! He's out of control! > > On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:41:38 -0500, "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" > <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> wrote: > > >Actually, you asked about TeamPowersoft (now called TeamSybase) and so I > >just gave you a link to something that would explain a little bit about us. > > > >You have to be *real* active to actually get an invite, and both quantity and > >quality are important. The average message count for TeamSybase members from > >January 1st of this year to today is 165 posts (with characters like Jim Egan > >posting over 500 messages in that period). > > > >On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:00:25 -0500, > > in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion > >VictorReinhart <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote: > >>Thanks, Bruce. > >> > >>The page says someone must invite you to become a member of Team Sybase. Are > >>you inviting me? > >> > >>>>I'd like to know more about Team PowerSoft. These folks are *so* helpful on > >>>>the newsgroups. What does Sybase do for these folks? How does one join? > >>> > >>>http://www.teamsybase.com > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] > >>>http://www.teamsybase.com > >>>http://www.needhim.org > >> > >>---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > >>http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp > > > >Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] > >http://www.teamsybase.com > >http://www.needhim.org > > > >---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > >http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
FWIW, Terry Voth and Terry Tykstra are both respected members of TeamSybase. -- <hopethishelps/> Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] mySybase -- http://www.sybase.com/mysybase "BEDick" <bdick@cox.net> wrote in message news:bC8wa2syBHA.133@forums.sybase.com... > Here's the top ten from the general newsgroup. The list is not perfectly > accurate, because people have changed their signature over time. But the > list still gives you an idea of who the motor-mouths are <g>. > > terry voth > 3592 > roy kiesler [teamsybase] > 3249 > simon caldwell > 2468 > bruce armstrong [teamsybase] > 2096 > terry dykstra > 1975 > philip salgannik > 1651 > bill green[teamsybase] > 1180 > eric aling [teamps] > 1090 > eric aling [teamsybase] > 1020 > jim o'neil [sybase] > 1015 > > "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message > news:3c8fa7fa.21314308@199.93.177.77... > > Jim is a superstar! He's out of control! > > > > On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:41:38 -0500, "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" > > <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> wrote: > > > > >Actually, you asked about TeamPowersoft (now called TeamSybase) and so I > > >just gave you a link to something that would explain a little bit about > us. > > > > > >You have to be *real* active to actually get an invite, and both quantity > and > > >quality are important. The average message count for TeamSybase members > from > > >January 1st of this year to today is 165 posts (with characters like Jim > Egan > > >posting over 500 messages in that period). > > > > > >On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:00:25 -0500, > > > in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion > > >VictorReinhart <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote: > > >>Thanks, Bruce. > > >> > > >>The page says someone must invite you to become a member of Team Sybase. > Are > > >>you inviting me? > > >> > > >>>>I'd like to know more about Team PowerSoft. These folks are *so* > helpful on > > >>>>the newsgroups. What does Sybase do for these folks? How does one > join? > > >>> > > >>>http://www.teamsybase.com > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] > > >>>http://www.teamsybase.com > > >>>http://www.needhim.org > > >> > > >>---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > > >>http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp > > > > > >Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] > > >http://www.teamsybase.com > > >http://www.needhim.org > > > > > >---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > > >http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Simon Caldwell is also a member of TeamSybase, but apparently not respected...<g> What time period was that over? On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:26:55 -0500, in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote: >FWIW, Terry Voth and Terry Tykstra are both respected members of TeamSybase. > >-- ><hopethishelps/> >Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] >mySybase -- http://www.sybase.com/mysybase > >"BEDick" <bdick@cox.net> wrote in message >news:bC8wa2syBHA.133@forums.sybase.com... >> Here's the top ten from the general newsgroup. The list is not perfectly >> accurate, because people have changed their signature over time. But the >> list still gives you an idea of who the motor-mouths are <g>. >> >> terry voth >> 3592 >> roy kiesler [teamsybase] >> 3249 >> simon caldwell >> 2468 >> bruce armstrong [teamsybase] >> 2096 >> terry dykstra >> 1975 >> philip salgannik >> 1651 >> bill green[teamsybase] >> 1180 >> eric aling [teamps] >> 1090 >> eric aling [teamsybase] >> 1020 >> jim o'neil [sybase] >> 1015 >> >> "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message >> news:3c8fa7fa.21314308@199.93.177.77... >> > Jim is a superstar! He's out of control! >> > >> > On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:41:38 -0500, "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" >> > <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> wrote: >> > >> > >Actually, you asked about TeamPowersoft (now called TeamSybase) and so >I >> > >just gave you a link to something that would explain a little bit about >> us. >> > > >> > >You have to be *real* active to actually get an invite, and both >quantity >> and >> > >quality are important. The average message count for TeamSybase >members >> from >> > >January 1st of this year to today is 165 posts (with characters like >Jim >> Egan >> > >posting over 500 messages in that period). >> > > >> > >On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:00:25 -0500, >> > > in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion >> > >VictorReinhart <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote: >> > >>Thanks, Bruce. >> > >> >> > >>The page says someone must invite you to become a member of Team >Sybase. >> Are >> > >>you inviting me? >> > >> >> > >>>>I'd like to know more about Team PowerSoft. These folks are *so* >> helpful on >> > >>>>the newsgroups. What does Sybase do for these folks? How does one >> join? >> > >>> >> > >>>http://www.teamsybase.com >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>>Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] >> > >>>http://www.teamsybase.com >> > >>>http://www.needhim.org >> > >> >> > >>---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- >> > >>http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp >> > > >> > >Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] >> > >http://www.teamsybase.com >> > >http://www.needhim.org >> > > >> > >---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- >> > >http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp >> > >> >> > > Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] http://www.teamsybase.com http://www.needhim.org ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Roy, I wanted to to get your glory, so I stripped the [...] stuff. Here's the revised list. roy kiesler 3969 terry voth 3604 simon caldwell 2982 bruce armstrong 2945 terry dykstra 2143 eric aling 2111 philip salgannik 1653 bill green 1313 jim o'neil 1113 bug 994 "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in message news:M8Oi35syBHA.206@forums.sybase.com... > FWIW, Terry Voth and Terry Tykstra are both respected members of TeamSybase. > > -- > <hopethishelps/> > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] > mySybase -- http://www.sybase.com/mysybase > > "BEDick" <bdick@cox.net> wrote in message > news:bC8wa2syBHA.133@forums.sybase.com... > > Here's the top ten from the general newsgroup. The list is not perfectly > > accurate, because people have changed their signature over time. But the > > list still gives you an idea of who the motor-mouths are <g>. > > > > terry voth > > 3592 > > roy kiesler [teamsybase] > > 3249 > > simon caldwell > > 2468 > > bruce armstrong [teamsybase] > > 2096 > > terry dykstra > > 1975 > > philip salgannik > > 1651 > > bill green[teamsybase] > > 1180 > > eric aling [teamps] > > 1090 > > eric aling [teamsybase] > > 1020 > > jim o'neil [sybase] > > 1015 > > > > "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message > > news:3c8fa7fa.21314308@199.93.177.77... > > > Jim is a superstar! He's out of control! > > > > > > On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:41:38 -0500, "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" > > > <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> wrote: > > > > > > >Actually, you asked about TeamPowersoft (now called TeamSybase) and so > I > > > >just gave you a link to something that would explain a little bit about > > us. > > > > > > > >You have to be *real* active to actually get an invite, and both > quantity > > and > > > >quality are important. The average message count for TeamSybase > members > > from > > > >January 1st of this year to today is 165 posts (with characters like > Jim > > Egan > > > >posting over 500 messages in that period). > > > > > > > >On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:00:25 -0500, > > > > in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion > > > >VictorReinhart <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote: > > > >>Thanks, Bruce. > > > >> > > > >>The page says someone must invite you to become a member of Team > Sybase. > > Are > > > >>you inviting me? > > > >> > > > >>>>I'd like to know more about Team PowerSoft. These folks are *so* > > helpful on > > > >>>>the newsgroups. What does Sybase do for these folks? How does one > > join? > > > >>> > > > >>>http://www.teamsybase.com > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] > > > >>>http://www.teamsybase.com > > > >>>http://www.needhim.org > > > >> > > > >>---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > > > >>http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp > > > > > > > >Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] > > > >http://www.teamsybase.com > > > >http://www.needhim.org > > > > > > > >---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > > > >http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp > > > > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
"Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> wrote in message news:tl#Yp9syBHA.318@forums.sybase.com... > > What time period was that over? > All posts. Here's the last twelve months. terry voth 1557 roy kiesler 773 bug 703 chris keating 633 simon caldwell 609 bruce armstrong 534 terry dykstra 529 jerry siegel 424 brian dick 330 edward muesch 303 -- Later, BEDick
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
ROFL! He's the Rodney Dangerfield of TeamSybase. <g> On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:41:11 -0500, "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> wrote: >Simon Caldwell is also a member of TeamSybase, but apparently not >respected...<g> > >What time period was that over? > >On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:26:55 -0500, > in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion >Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote: >>FWIW, Terry Voth and Terry Tykstra are both respected members of TeamSybase. >> >>-- >><hopethishelps/> >>Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] >>mySybase -- http://www.sybase.com/mysybase >> >>"BEDick" <bdick@cox.net> wrote in message >>news:bC8wa2syBHA.133@forums.sybase.com... >>> Here's the top ten from the general newsgroup. The list is not perfectly >>> accurate, because people have changed their signature over time. But the >>> list still gives you an idea of who the motor-mouths are <g>. >>> >>> terry voth >>> 3592 >>> roy kiesler [teamsybase] >>> 3249 >>> simon caldwell >>> 2468 >>> bruce armstrong [teamsybase] >>> 2096 >>> terry dykstra >>> 1975 >>> philip salgannik >>> 1651 >>> bill green[teamsybase] >>> 1180 >>> eric aling [teamps] >>> 1090 >>> eric aling [teamsybase] >>> 1020 >>> jim o'neil [sybase] >>> 1015 >>> >>> "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message >>> news:3c8fa7fa.21314308@199.93.177.77... >>> > Jim is a superstar! He's out of control! >>> > >>> > On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:41:38 -0500, "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" >>> > <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> wrote: >>> > >>> > >Actually, you asked about TeamPowersoft (now called TeamSybase) and so >>I >>> > >just gave you a link to something that would explain a little bit about >>> us. >>> > > >>> > >You have to be *real* active to actually get an invite, and both >>quantity >>> and >>> > >quality are important. The average message count for TeamSybase >>members >>> from >>> > >January 1st of this year to today is 165 posts (with characters like >>Jim >>> Egan >>> > >posting over 500 messages in that period). >>> > > >>> > >On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:00:25 -0500, >>> > > in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion >>> > >VictorReinhart <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote: >>> > >>Thanks, Bruce. >>> > >> >>> > >>The page says someone must invite you to become a member of Team >>Sybase. >>> Are >>> > >>you inviting me? >>> > >> >>> > >>>>I'd like to know more about Team PowerSoft. These folks are *so* >>> helpful on >>> > >>>>the newsgroups. What does Sybase do for these folks? How does one >>> join? >>> > >>> >>> > >>>http://www.teamsybase.com >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>>Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] >>> > >>>http://www.teamsybase.com >>> > >>>http://www.needhim.org >>> > >> >>> > >>---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- >>> > >>http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp >>> > > >>> > >Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] >>> > >http://www.teamsybase.com >>> > >http://www.needhim.org >>> > > >>> > >---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- >>> > >http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp >>> > >>> >>> >> >> > >Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] >http://www.teamsybase.com >http://www.needhim.org > >---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- >http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
He hasn't been initiated yet, and thus has not earned the team's respect (something we aim to correct in our April meeting<vbg>) -- <hopethishelps/> Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] mySybase -- http://www.sybase.com/mysybase "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> wrote in message news:tl#Yp9syBHA.318@forums.sybase.com... > Simon Caldwell is also a member of TeamSybase, but apparently not > respected...<g> > > What time period was that over? > > On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:26:55 -0500, > in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote: > >FWIW, Terry Voth and Terry Tykstra are both respected members of TeamSybase. > > > >-- > ><hopethishelps/> > >Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] > >mySybase -- http://www.sybase.com/mysybase > > > >"BEDick" <bdick@cox.net> wrote in message > >news:bC8wa2syBHA.133@forums.sybase.com... > >> Here's the top ten from the general newsgroup. The list is not perfectly > >> accurate, because people have changed their signature over time. But the > >> list still gives you an idea of who the motor-mouths are <g>. > >> > >> terry voth > >> 3592 > >> roy kiesler [teamsybase] > >> 3249 > >> simon caldwell > >> 2468 > >> bruce armstrong [teamsybase] > >> 2096 > >> terry dykstra > >> 1975 > >> philip salgannik > >> 1651 > >> bill green[teamsybase] > >> 1180 > >> eric aling [teamps] > >> 1090 > >> eric aling [teamsybase] > >> 1020 > >> jim o'neil [sybase] > >> 1015 > >> > >> "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message > >> news:3c8fa7fa.21314308@199.93.177.77... > >> > Jim is a superstar! He's out of control! > >> > > >> > On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:41:38 -0500, "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" > >> > <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> wrote: > >> > > >> > >Actually, you asked about TeamPowersoft (now called TeamSybase) and so > >I > >> > >just gave you a link to something that would explain a little bit about > >> us. > >> > > > >> > >You have to be *real* active to actually get an invite, and both > >quantity > >> and > >> > >quality are important. The average message count for TeamSybase > >members > >> from > >> > >January 1st of this year to today is 165 posts (with characters like > >Jim > >> Egan > >> > >posting over 500 messages in that period). > >> > > > >> > >On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:00:25 -0500, > >> > > in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion > >> > >VictorReinhart <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote: > >> > >>Thanks, Bruce. > >> > >> > >> > >>The page says someone must invite you to become a member of Team > >Sybase. > >> Are > >> > >>you inviting me? > >> > >> > >> > >>>>I'd like to know more about Team PowerSoft. These folks are *so* > >> helpful on > >> > >>>>the newsgroups. What does Sybase do for these folks? How does one > >> join? > >> > >>> > >> > >>>http://www.teamsybase.com > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] > >> > >>>http://www.teamsybase.com > >> > >>>http://www.needhim.org > >> > >> > >> > >>---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > >> > >>http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp > >> > > > >> > >Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] > >> > >http://www.teamsybase.com > >> > >http://www.needhim.org > >> > > > >> > >---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > >> > >http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] > http://www.teamsybase.com > http://www.needhim.org > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Of course, of course. Then he will be a respected member, provided he survives....<vvbg> On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:45:53 -0500, in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote: >He hasn't been initiated yet, and thus has not earned the team's respect >(something we aim to correct in our April meeting<vbg>) > >-- ><hopethishelps/> >Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] >mySybase -- http://www.sybase.com/mysybase > >"Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> >wrote in message news:tl#Yp9syBHA.318@forums.sybase.com... >> Simon Caldwell is also a member of TeamSybase, but apparently not >> respected...<g> >> >> What time period was that over? >> >> On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:26:55 -0500, >> in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion >> Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote: >> >FWIW, Terry Voth and Terry Tykstra are both respected members of >TeamSybase. >> > >> >-- >> ><hopethishelps/> >> >Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] >> >mySybase -- http://www.sybase.com/mysybase >> > >> >"BEDick" <bdick@cox.net> wrote in message >> >news:bC8wa2syBHA.133@forums.sybase.com... >> >> Here's the top ten from the general newsgroup. The list is not >perfectly >> >> accurate, because people have changed their signature over time. But >the >> >> list still gives you an idea of who the motor-mouths are <g>. >> >> >> >> terry voth >> >> 3592 >> >> roy kiesler [teamsybase] >> >> 3249 >> >> simon caldwell >> >> 2468 >> >> bruce armstrong [teamsybase] >> >> 2096 >> >> terry dykstra >> >> 1975 >> >> philip salgannik >> >> 1651 >> >> bill green[teamsybase] >> >> 1180 >> >> eric aling [teamps] >> >> 1090 >> >> eric aling [teamsybase] >> >> 1020 >> >> jim o'neil [sybase] >> >> 1015 >> >> >> >> "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message >> >> news:3c8fa7fa.21314308@199.93.177.77... >> >> > Jim is a superstar! He's out of control! >> >> > >> >> > On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:41:38 -0500, "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" >> >> > <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > >Actually, you asked about TeamPowersoft (now called TeamSybase) and >so >> >I >> >> > >just gave you a link to something that would explain a little bit >about >> >> us. >> >> > > >> >> > >You have to be *real* active to actually get an invite, and both >> >quantity >> >> and >> >> > >quality are important. The average message count for TeamSybase >> >members >> >> from >> >> > >January 1st of this year to today is 165 posts (with characters like >> >Jim >> >> Egan >> >> > >posting over 500 messages in that period). >> >> > > >> >> > >On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:00:25 -0500, >> >> > > in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion >> >> > >VictorReinhart <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote: >> >> > >>Thanks, Bruce. >> >> > >> >> >> > >>The page says someone must invite you to become a member of Team >> >Sybase. >> >> Are >> >> > >>you inviting me? >> >> > >> >> >> > >>>>I'd like to know more about Team PowerSoft. These folks are *so* >> >> helpful on >> >> > >>>>the newsgroups. What does Sybase do for these folks? How does >one >> >> join? >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>>http://www.teamsybase.com >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>>Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] >> >> > >>>http://www.teamsybase.com >> >> > >>>http://www.needhim.org >> >> > >> >> >> > >>---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- >> >> > >>http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp >> >> > > >> >> > >Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] >> >> > >http://www.teamsybase.com >> >> > >http://www.needhim.org >> >> > > >> >> > >---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- >> >> > >http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] >> http://www.teamsybase.com >> http://www.needhim.org >> >> ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- >> http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp > > Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] http://www.teamsybase.com http://www.needhim.org ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Thank you. I feel a lot better now! -- Terry Dykstra (TeamSybase) Please state PB / OS / DB versions in your post. MySybase http://my.sybase.com/mysybase Search Google: http://groups.google.com "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in message news:M8Oi35syBHA.206@forums.sybase.com... > FWIW, Terry Voth and Terry Tykstra are both respected members of TeamSybase. > > -- > <hopethishelps/> > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] > mySybase -- http://www.sybase.com/mysybase > > "BEDick" <bdick@cox.net> wrote in message > news:bC8wa2syBHA.133@forums.sybase.com... > > Here's the top ten from the general newsgroup. The list is not perfectly > > accurate, because people have changed their signature over time. But the > > list still gives you an idea of who the motor-mouths are <g>. > > > > terry voth > > 3592 > > roy kiesler [teamsybase] > > 3249 > > simon caldwell > > 2468 > > bruce armstrong [teamsybase] > > 2096 > > terry dykstra > > 1975 > > philip salgannik > > 1651 > > bill green[teamsybase] > > 1180 > > eric aling [teamps] > > 1090 > > eric aling [teamsybase] > > 1020 > > jim o'neil [sybase] > > 1015 > > > > "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message > > news:3c8fa7fa.21314308@199.93.177.77... > > > Jim is a superstar! He's out of control! > > > > > > On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:41:38 -0500, "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" > > > <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> wrote: > > > > > > >Actually, you asked about TeamPowersoft (now called TeamSybase) and so > I > > > >just gave you a link to something that would explain a little bit about > > us. > > > > > > > >You have to be *real* active to actually get an invite, and both > quantity > > and > > > >quality are important. The average message count for TeamSybase > members > > from > > > >January 1st of this year to today is 165 posts (with characters like > Jim > > Egan > > > >posting over 500 messages in that period). > > > > > > > >On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:00:25 -0500, > > > > in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion > > > >VictorReinhart <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote: > > > >>Thanks, Bruce. > > > >> > > > >>The page says someone must invite you to become a member of Team > Sybase. > > Are > > > >>you inviting me? > > > >> > > > >>>>I'd like to know more about Team PowerSoft. These folks are *so* > > helpful on > > > >>>>the newsgroups. What does Sybase do for these folks? How does one > > join? > > > >>> > > > >>>http://www.teamsybase.com > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] > > > >>>http://www.teamsybase.com > > > >>>http://www.needhim.org > > > >> > > > >>---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > > > >>http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp > > > > > > > >Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] > > > >http://www.teamsybase.com > > > >http://www.needhim.org > > > > > > > >---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > > > >http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp > > > > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
This is on the horizon, with the first stage of this 3rd party appserver integration (client-side) to be introduce with PB9. On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 14:14:43 -0500, "Daniel Coppersmith" <daniel@N.0.S.P.A.M_infrontsoftware.com> wrote: >What is involved with an app server supporting the VM? (I ask this out of >complete ignorance). Would it be a lot of work for IBM to interact with the >PBVM? If Sybase supplied the VM to them, isn't it a just a bunch of CORBA >api calls to the VM? Or is that a huge over simplification? > >D > > >"Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> >wrote in message news:rxyYAofyBHA.304@forums.sybase.com... >> It would seem that the two are related, though. If it's going to support >> other app servers, it's going to have to compile to Java (or perhaps let >> you script in Java). I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for IBM or BEA to >> support the PB VM, but if PB could create java objects, it should be the >> end of the issue. >> >> On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 16:55:43 GMT, >> in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion >> Dave Fish [Team Sybase] <dfish@sybase.com> wrote: >> >On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:36:30 -0500, "Daniel Coppersmith" >> ><daniel@N.0.S.P.A.M_infrontsoftware.com> wrote: >> > >> >>I would like to see native PowerBuilder component support in other >> >>application servers such as WebSphere. >> >> >> >But doesn't that application server vendor have to provide some sort >> >of support for running the PB VM? Sybase can only do so much. If IBM >> >doesn't allow you to call PB components (or initialize the PBVM from >> >WebSphere like EAServer does now) how would it be workable? >> > >> >>Right now the biggest thing I hear when I suggest PB components is "We >don't >> >>want to be tied to EA Server". >> >> >> >>PB generating Java would be nice, but I am afraid that would be full of >bugs >> >>and nuances that may not be worth while. >> > >> >I tend to agree with you. I wouldn't want to see the issues that arose >> >when they added compiled (C++ code) happen again. >> > >> >Regards, >> >Dave Fish [TeamSybase] >> > >> >> >> >> >> >>"Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message >> >>news:3c8e238d.7608760@199.93.177.77... >> >>> That subject line should get your attention. <g> >> >>> >> >>> I'm very pleased with the participation in this group. We've obviously >> >>> provided a well for a very thirsty group of developers! >> >>> >> >>> As you may or may not know, PB 9 is about to go into Beta and the >> >>> feature set has pretty much been frozen. I know a lot of these >> >>> requests are for very useful features and hopefully many will some day >> >>> be incorporated into PB. I don't know what can be done for PB 9 at >> >>> this point. Just don't want to falsely get people's hopes up. >> >>> >> >>> What I would like to do, is raise the discussion to a higher level of >> >>> abstraction. Instead of specifics (please feel free to continue to >> >>> post those too) I would like to get a feel for where you, as a PB >> >>> developer would like to see PowerBuilder go in the future. >> >>> >> >>> Do you want it to generate Java? Do you want it to compile to the MSIL >> >>> layer for .NET? Do you think it should focus more on features for >> >>> client server applications? Do you think it should incorporate more >> >>> features to make web development easier? Is it important to you that >> >>> PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume them) or does that >> >>> not interest you in the least? (These are just some ideas, I'd like to >> >>> hear others.) >> >>> >> >>> What do you think Sybase needs to do with PowerBuilder to make it >> >>> thrive and regain some of the glory it had a few years ago? >> >>> >> >>> I've read some of your messages about it being too late and I >> >>> understand the bitterness you may feel. Unfortunately I don't have a >> >>> time machine so I can't go back a few years and change Sybase's past >> >>> strategy with regard to PowerBuilder. We do have an opportunity now to >> >>> influence the direction that PB goes in and I'm asking for your ideas >> >>> to start that change now. >> >>> >> >>> Regards, >> >>> Dave Fish [TeamSybase] >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] >> http://www.teamsybase.com >> http://www.needhim.org >> >> ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- >> http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Dave, I think the idea brought forward here is valid though. The product is doing well. The feature set is improving, the quality is improving. Now there's an apparent (I say apparent because I'm not clued up enough to be definitive) need to establish some market penetration. How about this: Do away with PB Desktop altogether. Sell PB Professional at a desktop-like price. Get it into the software retailers stores, give it away at backyard barbeques if you have to, but get the product in front of as many developers as possible. Use the ePeople approach for paid-support (reduce the price if necessary), so as to not overload the tech-support lines with folks who a) want to know how to open the box and b) calling to complain about the price of tech support. The concept has to do with a longer-term plan. Once the product gains momentum, the Enterprise Edition capabilities (web-targets, web-services, app-server integration, team development, Enterprise class database access etc), will promote the product better than 10 marketing campaigns. If you want to keep desktop around, then don't produce it as a product, but just as a CD. Put the thing in PC Magazine and PC Week (and such other high-distribution magazines), and just get the product out in front of people. You need more market penetration, and not just to the Fortune 100. They already know about it. regards, Bill "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message news:3c8f89e1.13609559@199.93.177.77... > Well to be honest with you, I don't know if PB Desktop was a good > idea to begin with. (Line extensions rarely help a product). > > Honestly, the revenue from a low cost product like PB Desktop won't > cover the R&D needed to move PB forward, and the cost of supporting > such a product probably outweighs the revenue it brings in. > > I know people don't like to pay a lot of money for things, but really > as professional software developers, we need to be willing to invest > in our tool set. Back in 1993 I paid over $2,000 for a copy of > PowerBuilder Standard. I hated to part with the money, but I knew that > it was an investment in my career and my future. That was one of the > best investments I have ever made. If I could have seen 5-8 years into > the future to see where I would be financially and career wise after > learning PowerBuilder I would have paid five times as much for PB and > it still would have been a bargain. > > The bottom line is, if PB doesn't make money for Sybase, they won't > support it and invest in it. That is true of any company (at least one > that wants to stay in business). > > Sybase is making the investment in PowerBuilder expecting that it will > make money for them. Making PB Desktop more like the Enterprise > version would, in my opinion, seriously erode PB revenue. > > Regards, > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > > On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:23:16 -0500, "VictorReinhart" > <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote: > > >Back in its heyday, I saw PowerBuilder Desktop on the shelves at CompUSA. I > >think Sybase needs to adopt the MS strategy: Get an inexpensive version of the > >product into many people's hands. It will "bubble up" to management's > >attention. I just showed PB today to someone here, and he loves it! The key > >is: he *saw* it! > > > >Also, I think Sybase should re-think the PB Desktop strategy. I don't think > >it's a good idea to limit the product to only connect to "desktop" databases. > >Doing that makes no sense. Read the posts. A lot of people are confused and > >disappointed with this limitation. > > > >We need to encourage the pioneers at big companies to spend about $200 to buy PB > >Desktop on their own, then have success using the product. It *must* connect to > >Oracle, Sybase, SQL Server! People need to see the DataWindow -- the shining > >star of PB. If they can't connect to their Oracle Database, that won't happen. > >Please, please, please, limit the product another way. > > > >Marketing happens many ways: > > > >1) Advertising. > >Important, but very expensive. This should *not* be Sybase's primary strategy, > >but rather, the third strategy. > > > >2) Leading-Edge Developers > >People who take a chance on the $200 PB box at Comp USA. This *should* be *the* > >primary strategy. > > > >3) Students > >People who get PB almost free at school, and take a class. This *should* be > >Sybase's secondary marketing strategy. > > > >4) User Groups > >Wine and dine your user group presidents. We need more of them. > > > >That said, I would suggest we limit PB Desktop in other ways: > >a) Allow *full* connectivity > >b) Disable some advanced feature, such as Treeviews, or Dynamic SQL. Pick > >something which won't kill the project immediately. > >c) Help me here, folks! > > > >My humble opinion. > > > >>That being said, I am lucky(???) enough to have gotten involved in some > >>small degree with the marketing folks at Sybase, and they are doing a lot. > >>We might not all notice it, one reason being that their marketing budget - > >>for all products - is less than Microsoft plans to spend on .Net alone. > >>That's the benefit of having a market capitilization near $300B vs. the > >>almost $2B for Sybase. Nothing you can do about that. > > > > > >---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > >http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Woody, You are describing most of my clients, although I have also provided services to Banks and Insurance companies. In Asia/Pacific the market you describe used to be serviced by the IBM S/3x and then the AS/400 up until about 1993. I moved from that technology to PB in 1991 (1.0A ) and I loved the fact that I could deliver the better interface with the strength of the database (usually Sybase SQL Server at that stage). After the paradigm shift from 3GL to events and objects I found myself pretty productive. Now we have had another paradigm shift into Web based application delivery. I find myself regretting that the Web based stuff can't look and act as good as standard Windows but I guess thats the architecture, not the Tool. I do think I'd like to use the opportunity to try shipping some software products on Linux though. I'm familiar with unix because I have administered databases for the last 10 years along with application development and we are moving our Web servers and mail servers to Linux. Why can't we have a Linux version of PB? Brett Computers can now keep a man's every transgression recorded in a permanent memory bank, duplicating with complex programming and intricate wiring a feat his wife handles quite well without fuss or fanfare. Lane Olinghouse ( - ____) In "Reader's Digest," Sep 1993 =
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
:-p -- All views expressed in this message are my own and not necessarily those of my employer "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> wrote in message news:tl#Yp9syBHA.318@forums.sybase.com... > Simon Caldwell is also a member of TeamSybase, but apparently not > respected...<g> > ://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I'll just have to wait for your respect as I can't make the meeting due to work commitments :( -- All views expressed in this message are my own and not necessarily those of my employer "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> wrote in message news:ybeOWptyBHA.133@forums.sybase.com... > Of course, of course. Then he will be a respected member, provided he > survives....<vvbg> > > On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:45:53 -0500, > in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote: > >He hasn't been initiated yet, and thus has not earned the team's respect > >(something we aim to correct in our April meeting<vbg>) > > > >-- > ><hopethishelps/> > >Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] > >mySybase -- http://www.sybase.com/mysybase > > > >"Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> > >wrote in message news:tl#Yp9syBHA.318@forums.sybase.com... > >> Simon Caldwell is also a member of TeamSybase, but apparently not > >> respected...<g> > >> > >> What time period was that over? > >> > >> On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:26:55 -0500, > >> in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion > >> Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote: > >> >FWIW, Terry Voth and Terry Tykstra are both respected members of > >TeamSybase. > >> > > >> >-- > >> ><hopethishelps/> > >> >Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] > >> >mySybase -- http://www.sybase.com/mysybase > >> > > >> >"BEDick" <bdick@cox.net> wrote in message > >> >news:bC8wa2syBHA.133@forums.sybase.com... > >> >> Here's the top ten from the general newsgroup. The list is not > >perfectly > >> >> accurate, because people have changed their signature over time. But > >the > >> >> list still gives you an idea of who the motor-mouths are <g>. > >> >> > >> >> terry voth > >> >> 3592 > >> >> roy kiesler [teamsybase] > >> >> 3249 > >> >> simon caldwell > >> >> 2468 > >> >> bruce armstrong [teamsybase] > >> >> 2096 > >> >> terry dykstra > >> >> 1975 > >> >> philip salgannik > >> >> 1651 > >> >> bill green[teamsybase] > >> >> 1180 > >> >> eric aling [teamps] > >> >> 1090 > >> >> eric aling [teamsybase] > >> >> 1020 > >> >> jim o'neil [sybase] > >> >> 1015 > >> >> > >> >> "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message > >> >> news:3c8fa7fa.21314308@199.93.177.77... > >> >> > Jim is a superstar! He's out of control! > >> >> > > >> >> > On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:41:38 -0500, "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" > >> >> > <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > >Actually, you asked about TeamPowersoft (now called TeamSybase) and > >so > >> >I > >> >> > >just gave you a link to something that would explain a little bit > >about > >> >> us. > >> >> > > > >> >> > >You have to be *real* active to actually get an invite, and both > >> >quantity > >> >> and > >> >> > >quality are important. The average message count for TeamSybase > >> >members > >> >> from > >> >> > >January 1st of this year to today is 165 posts (with characters like > >> >Jim > >> >> Egan > >> >> > >posting over 500 messages in that period). > >> >> > > > >> >> > >On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:00:25 -0500, > >> >> > > in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion > >> >> > >VictorReinhart <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote: > >> >> > >>Thanks, Bruce. > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >>The page says someone must invite you to become a member of Team > >> >Sybase. > >> >> Are > >> >> > >>you inviting me? > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >>>>I'd like to know more about Team PowerSoft. These folks are *so* > >> >> helpful on > >> >> > >>>>the newsgroups. What does Sybase do for these folks? How does > >one > >> >> join? > >> >> > >>> > >> >> > >>>http://www.teamsybase.com > >> >> > >>> > >> >> > >>> > >> >> > >>> > >> >> > >>>Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] > >> >> > >>>http://www.teamsybase.com > >> >> > >>>http://www.needhim.org > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >>---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > >> >> > >>http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp > >> >> > > > >> >> > >Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] > >> >> > >http://www.teamsybase.com > >> >> > >http://www.needhim.org > >> >> > > > >> >> > >---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > >> >> > >http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > >> Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] > >> http://www.teamsybase.com > >> http://www.needhim.org > >> > >> ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > >> http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp > > > > > > Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] > http://www.teamsybase.com > http://www.needhim.org > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I LIKE that idea..Yeay Bill! After reading through this never-ending thread(and liking it :-)), the phrase is 'exposure, exposure, exposure'. I realize Sybase doesn't have the $$$ that Microsoft has but you gotta start somewhere. Web is a big deal here in places, but our focus for our development is client-server and functionality for the user. A former instructor of mine sent me a Microsoft promo (get VB.Net for $109 - they're giving it away cause they want people to use it). Microsoft has tapped the schools, why not Sybase? Also, we're using the heck out of PFC, so please don't get rid of it :-). It has really saved us time. I wish maybe some things were easier to learn, but that's a given with any new language. Another 2 cents -- Evita R. Chapa Senior Systems Analyst Command Technlogies, Inc "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message news:JHUuVDwyBHA.333@forums.sybase.com... > Dave, > > I think the idea brought forward here is valid though. The product is doing > well. The feature set is improving, the quality is improving. Now there's an > apparent (I say apparent because I'm not clued up enough to be definitive) > need to establish some market penetration. How about this: > > Do away with PB Desktop altogether. Sell PB Professional at a desktop-like > price. Get it into the software retailers stores, give it away at backyard > barbeques if you have to, but get the product in front of as many developers > as possible. Use the ePeople approach for paid-support (reduce the price if > necessary), so as to not overload the tech-support lines with folks who a) > want to know how to open the box and b) calling to complain about the price > of tech support. The concept has to do with a longer-term plan. Once the > product gains momentum, the Enterprise Edition capabilities (web-targets, > web-services, app-server integration, team development, Enterprise class > database access etc), will promote the product better than 10 marketing > campaigns. > > If you want to keep desktop around, then don't produce it as a product, but > just as a CD. Put the thing in PC Magazine and PC Week (and such other > high-distribution magazines), and just get the product out in front of > people. > > You need more market penetration, and not just to the Fortune 100. They > already know about it. > > > regards, > Bill > > > > > "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message > news:3c8f89e1.13609559@199.93.177.77... > > Well to be honest with you, I don't know if PB Desktop was a good > > idea to begin with. (Line extensions rarely help a product). > > > > Honestly, the revenue from a low cost product like PB Desktop won't > > cover the R&D needed to move PB forward, and the cost of supporting > > such a product probably outweighs the revenue it brings in. > > > > I know people don't like to pay a lot of money for things, but really > > as professional software developers, we need to be willing to invest > > in our tool set. Back in 1993 I paid over $2,000 for a copy of > > PowerBuilder Standard. I hated to part with the money, but I knew that > > it was an investment in my career and my future. That was one of the > > best investments I have ever made. If I could have seen 5-8 years into > > the future to see where I would be financially and career wise after > > learning PowerBuilder I would have paid five times as much for PB and > > it still would have been a bargain. > > > > The bottom line is, if PB doesn't make money for Sybase, they won't > > support it and invest in it. That is true of any company (at least one > > that wants to stay in business). > > > > Sybase is making the investment in PowerBuilder expecting that it will > > make money for them. Making PB Desktop more like the Enterprise > > version would, in my opinion, seriously erode PB revenue. > > > > Regards, > > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > > > > On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:23:16 -0500, "VictorReinhart" > > <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote: > > > > >Back in its heyday, I saw PowerBuilder Desktop on the shelves at CompUSA. > I > > >think Sybase needs to adopt the MS strategy: Get an inexpensive version > of the > > >product into many people's hands. It will "bubble up" to management's > > >attention. I just showed PB today to someone here, and he loves it! The > key > > >is: he *saw* it! > > > > > >Also, I think Sybase should re-think the PB Desktop strategy. I don't > think > > >it's a good idea to limit the product to only connect to "desktop" > databases. > > >Doing that makes no sense. Read the posts. A lot of people are confused > and > > >disappointed with this limitation. > > > > > >We need to encourage the pioneers at big companies to spend about $200 to > buy PB > > >Desktop on their own, then have success using the product. It *must* > connect to > > >Oracle, Sybase, SQL Server! People need to see the DataWindow -- the > shining > > >star of PB. If they can't connect to their Oracle Database, that won't > happen. > > >Please, please, please, limit the product another way. > > > > > >Marketing happens many ways: > > > > > >1) Advertising. > > >Important, but very expensive. This should *not* be Sybase's primary > strategy, > > >but rather, the third strategy. > > > > > >2) Leading-Edge Developers > > >People who take a chance on the $200 PB box at Comp USA. This *should* > be *the* > > >primary strategy. > > > > > >3) Students > > >People who get PB almost free at school, and take a class. This *should* > be > > >Sybase's secondary marketing strategy. > > > > > >4) User Groups > > >Wine and dine your user group presidents. We need more of them. > > > > > >That said, I would suggest we limit PB Desktop in other ways: > > >a) Allow *full* connectivity > > >b) Disable some advanced feature, such as Treeviews, or Dynamic SQL. > Pick > > >something which won't kill the project immediately. > > >c) Help me here, folks! > > > > > >My humble opinion. > > > > > >>That being said, I am lucky(???) enough to have gotten involved in some > > >>small degree with the marketing folks at Sybase, and they are doing a > lot. > > >>We might not all notice it, one reason being that their marketing > budget - > > >>for all products - is less than Microsoft plans to spend on .Net alone. > > >>That's the benefit of having a market capitilization near $300B vs. the > > >>almost $2B for Sybase. Nothing you can do about that. > > > > > > > > >---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > > >http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
"Edward Muesch" <emuesch@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:C#OKkJhyBHA.318@forums.sybase.com... > I believe you mean to suggest that that was your .02 dollars worth <g> > > Free PB Desktop with limited Web Datawindow. Place limitations that > wouldn't stop the little guy but only prevent the Corporate client from > being able to use it. Borland does this with their products. They have "personal" versions of their apps that can't be used for commercial purposes. Would that work? -- Mike Swaim Michael.Swaim@UBSWenergy.com Disclaimer: Yeah, like I speak for <employer>.
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
"Woody" <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message news:xgl#7LfyBHA.204@forums.sybase.com... > It seems to me, however, that things are done in VB.net, seamlessly, that > require the PFC in PowerBuilder. All of it's usefull ness not withstanding, > I have always felt like the PFC was a platform on top of a platform, and too > hard to learn. For simple client/server things, the PFC put a level of > complexity into the mix that beginners just aren't going to use. <SNIP> > There is no good tool for Client/Server right now. Perhaps Delphi, but I > worry about Borland's stability. (Aside: Borland's quite profitable these days.) The problem with Delphi from a C/S perspective is that out of the box you have to use either the Borland Database Engine or the DataSnap componants to talk to your server. The BDE's annoying to use, and will occasionally refuse to work (forcing you to close all of your other applications, until it can lock the memory it wants), and the DataSnap componants are just plain user hostile. Many people use third party software to talk to their databases instead. Currently in PowerBuilder, you have the PFC sitting on top of black box classes like windows, menus and nvos. What I'd like to do is extend powerscript a bit, and implement all of the base classes in powerscript. (This is more or less the way that the Delphi, C# and Java IDEs work.) This would require seperating the development team into a compiler group and a library group, and I think could lead to greater stability. I'd also distribute library source with the enterprise version. I'd also add support for fast datatypes. Currently, PB datatypes are nullable, which is great for talking to the database, but sucks if you're doing math or loops. Fast datatypes wouldn't be nullable, but would allow you to do the math directly on the CPU. Is that radical enough? -- Mike Swaim Michael.Swaim@UBSWenergy.com Disclaimer: Yeah, like I speak for <employer>.
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Sue Dunnell wrote: >We will be rebuilding some of our core functionality. PB is over 10 years old, >and some of its infrastructure needs to be modified/rebuilt. This is true for >any software product; PB was originally developed to address a different >programming environment before the many languages and standards we have today >existed. This is work we are currently doing, and it's a work in progress, but >it's not something that can sell new versions of PB - it's not a sexy new >feature to write about like XML is. Well, this pretty much confirms the suspicion I have always had that the PB developers are much, much more interested in chasing any hot new technology in a short skirt than taking care of business on the home front. In my opinion, it is exactly this attitude that has caused PowerBuilder to slip into the status of a second-tier, also-ran development tool in the minds of most people, and it is exactly this attitude that will keep it there until it is endeared only by a handful of propeller-heads running a Linux version of PB on a box they built from scratch. I strongly disagree with your claim that cleaning up the "infrastructure" will not sell any more copies of PB. This is, in fact, the primary reason I had to stop recommending PB to my clients, so these are lost sales that can be directly attributed to PB's usability problems. Bill Norton Austin, TX
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
But that's really true for all the big IDE's. MS books (even non-MS Press) seem to come out weeks or even months before the product ships. Case-in-point; .Net books are all over the place. This allows the largest possible window of marketability to the author/publisher. The IDE is usually (although not always) finalized long before final Beta. The last couple of Beta versions just get the kinks out of the internals. -EGM Paul Horan[TeamSybase] <paulhATvcisolutionsDOTcom> wrote in message news:39#c4dsyBHA.333@forums.sybase.com... > And, it's so hard to get authors to commit to writing a book, when the > product comes out with a new, enhanced IDE every 12-18 months... By the > time you understand it yourself, write the book, edit it and publish it, the > next version comes out and obviates all your work!!! > > -- > Paul A. Horan[TeamSybase] > VCI Springfield, MA > www.vcisolutions.com > > > "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> > wrote in message news:wzxm4tryBHA.333@forums.sybase.com... > > Folks like CompUSA will start stocking it (and Borders will start stocking > > books on PB) when they sense there is a demand for such. So the issue is > > to create 'momentum' again, and the CompUSAs and Borders will take care of > > the rest. > > > > Bruce 'former hardware/software sales guy' Armstrong > > > > On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:11:18 -0800, > > in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion > > Woody <woody@splawns.com> wrote: > > >IMHO PowerBuilder is never going to happen the way it should if you can > not > > >buy it at a regular software outlet like CompUSA. How you do that, I > don't > > >know, but others do. If Delphi can, why not us? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] > > http://www.teamsybase.com > > http://www.needhim.org > > > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
"Bill Norton" <bnorton@austin.rr.com> wrote in message news:8gfCo44yBHA.133@forums.sybase.com... > snip < > and it is exactly this attitude that will keep it there until it is > endeared only by a handful of propeller-heads running a Linux version of PB on > a box they built from scratch. I knew the TeamSybase guys wore propeller-beanies, but I didn't know they all ran Linux. <bg> > snip < Sorry... I had to be cheesy.
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Cheesy but cute..Hey I like unix...:-) By the way, is it time for 'PB's Future-Part II' yet?? I'm starting to have a hard time tracking the thread.. Just a suggestion Evita "Bug" <fenterbug@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:iD9mZD5yBHA.244@forums.sybase.com... > "Bill Norton" <bnorton@austin.rr.com> wrote in message > news:8gfCo44yBHA.133@forums.sybase.com... > > > snip < > > > and it is exactly this attitude that will keep it there until it is > > endeared only by a handful of propeller-heads running a Linux version of > PB on > > a box they built from scratch. > > I knew the TeamSybase guys wore propeller-beanies, but I didn't know they > all ran Linux. <bg> > > > snip < > > > Sorry... I had to be cheesy. > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
The solution to the usability problem may be to "eat your own dog food". By which I mean use PB for Sybase's own internal business applications. Besides, maybe you would get to match Oracle's claim of saving a million dollars by using their own applications. Bill Norton wrote in message <8gfCo44yBHA.133@forums.sybase.com>... >Sue Dunnell wrote: >>We will be rebuilding some of our core functionality. PB is over 10 years old, >>and some of its infrastructure needs to be modified/rebuilt. This is true for >>any software product; PB was originally developed to address a different >>programming environment before the many languages and standards we have today >>existed. This is work we are currently doing, and it's a work in progress, but >>it's not something that can sell new versions of PB - it's not a sexy new >>feature to write about like XML is. > >Well, this pretty much confirms the suspicion I have always had that the PB >developers are much, much more interested in chasing any hot new technology in a >short skirt than taking care of business on the home front. > >In my opinion, it is exactly this attitude that has caused PowerBuilder to slip >into the status of a second-tier, also-ran development tool in the minds of most >people, and it is exactly this attitude that will keep it there until it is >endeared only by a handful of propeller-heads running a Linux version of PB on >a box they built from scratch. > >I strongly disagree with your claim that cleaning up the "infrastructure" will >not sell any more copies of PB. This is, in fact, the primary reason I had to >stop recommending PB to my clients, so these are lost sales that can be directly >attributed to PB's usability problems. > > >Bill Norton >Austin, TX
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Bill, I don't know why you read what you read between the lines -- having known Sue and the PB development team for a while, the effort to rebuild the infrastructure are meant to support future product enhancements that people are requesting today(!) but are simply not possible using the current implementation of either the PBVM, the datawindow engine, etc. If PowerBuilder was to support .NET, the compiler would have to be modified to emit MSIL -- that's infrastructure. If WebSphere was to host PB NVO, the PBVM would likely have to be modified to support WebSphere-specific interfaces -- that's infrastructure. -- <hopethishelps/> Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] mySybase -- http://www.sybase.com/mysybase "Bill Norton" <bnorton@austin.rr.com> wrote in message news:8gfCo44yBHA.133@forums.sybase.com... > Sue Dunnell wrote: > >We will be rebuilding some of our core functionality. PB is over 10 years old, > >and some of its infrastructure needs to be modified/rebuilt. This is true for > >any software product; PB was originally developed to address a different > >programming environment before the many languages and standards we have today > >existed. This is work we are currently doing, and it's a work in progress, but > >it's not something that can sell new versions of PB - it's not a sexy new > >feature to write about like XML is. > > Well, this pretty much confirms the suspicion I have always had that the PB > developers are much, much more interested in chasing any hot new technology in a > short skirt than taking care of business on the home front. > > In my opinion, it is exactly this attitude that has caused PowerBuilder to slip > into the status of a second-tier, also-ran development tool in the minds of most > people, and it is exactly this attitude that will keep it there until it is > endeared only by a handful of propeller-heads running a Linux version of PB on > a box they built from scratch. > > I strongly disagree with your claim that cleaning up the "infrastructure" will > not sell any more copies of PB. This is, in fact, the primary reason I had to > stop recommending PB to my clients, so these are lost sales that can be directly > attributed to PB's usability problems. > > > Bill Norton > Austin, TX
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Eating your own dog food is one of my favorite expressions Jerry. I truely believe a company must do that if they want to be successful. Sybase has a lot of applications written in PowerBuilder, but they are not written by the PB development team. It would be great if they did have to write apps using PB, but then when would they find time to support and enhance PB? Regards, Dave Fish [TeamSybase] On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:57:16 -0500, "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote: >The solution to the usability problem may be to "eat your own dog food". By >which I mean use PB for Sybase's own internal business applications. >Besides, maybe you would get to match Oracle's claim of saving a million >dollars by using their own applications. > >Bill Norton wrote in message <8gfCo44yBHA.133@forums.sybase.com>... >>Sue Dunnell wrote: >>>We will be rebuilding some of our core functionality. PB is over 10 years >old, >>>and some of its infrastructure needs to be modified/rebuilt. This is true >for >>>any software product; PB was originally developed to address a different >>>programming environment before the many languages and standards we have >today >>>existed. This is work we are currently doing, and it's a work in progress, >but >>>it's not something that can sell new versions of PB - it's not a sexy new >>>feature to write about like XML is. >> >>Well, this pretty much confirms the suspicion I have always had that the PB >>developers are much, much more interested in chasing any hot new technology >in a >>short skirt than taking care of business on the home front. >> >>In my opinion, it is exactly this attitude that has caused PowerBuilder to >slip >>into the status of a second-tier, also-ran development tool in the minds of >most >>people, and it is exactly this attitude that will keep it there until it is >>endeared only by a handful of propeller-heads running a Linux version of >PB on >>a box they built from scratch. >> >>I strongly disagree with your claim that cleaning up the "infrastructure" >will >>not sell any more copies of PB. This is, in fact, the primary reason I had >to >>stop recommending PB to my clients, so these are lost sales that can be >directly >>attributed to PB's usability problems. >> >> >>Bill Norton >>Austin, TX > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
You mean PB isn't so incredibly productive that they would have lots of time? <bg> Seriously, tool writers need a different mind-set than application writers [btdt] as well as a different tool set. Nothing helps usability like talking to the end user. If you are a toolsmith, that would be an application developer. Maybe management could get some people from the two groups to have lunch together once a week? Or would that take a plane ride? Dave Fish [Team Sybase] wrote in message <3c9106b9.24650014@199.93.177.77>... >Eating your own dog food is one of my favorite expressions Jerry. I >truely believe a company must do that if they want to be successful. >Sybase has a lot of applications written in PowerBuilder, but they are >not written by the PB development team. It would be great if they did >have to write apps using PB, but then when would they find time to >support and enhance PB? > >Regards, >Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > >On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:57:16 -0500, "Jerry Siegel" ><jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote: > >>The solution to the usability problem may be to "eat your own dog food". By >>which I mean use PB for Sybase's own internal business applications. >>Besides, maybe you would get to match Oracle's claim of saving a million >>dollars by using their own applications. >> >>Bill Norton wrote in message <8gfCo44yBHA.133@forums.sybase.com>... >>>Sue Dunnell wrote: >>>>We will be rebuilding some of our core functionality. PB is over 10 years >>old, >>>>and some of its infrastructure needs to be modified/rebuilt. This is true >>for >>>>any software product; PB was originally developed to address a different >>>>programming environment before the many languages and standards we have >>today >>>>existed. This is work we are currently doing, and it's a work in progress, >>but >>>>it's not something that can sell new versions of PB - it's not a sexy new >>>>feature to write about like XML is. >>> >>>Well, this pretty much confirms the suspicion I have always had that the PB >>>developers are much, much more interested in chasing any hot new technology >>in a >>>short skirt than taking care of business on the home front. >>> >>>In my opinion, it is exactly this attitude that has caused PowerBuilder to >>slip >>>into the status of a second-tier, also-ran development tool in the minds of >>most >>>people, and it is exactly this attitude that will keep it there until it is >>>endeared only by a handful of propeller-heads running a Linux version of >>PB on >>>a box they built from scratch. >>> >>>I strongly disagree with your claim that cleaning up the "infrastructure" >>will >>>not sell any more copies of PB. This is, in fact, the primary reason I had >>to >>>stop recommending PB to my clients, so these are lost sales that can be >>directly >>>attributed to PB's usability problems. >>> >>> >>>Bill Norton >>>Austin, TX >> >> >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
The revenue for the "let's get it onto everybody's desktop" version isn't supposed to support development efforts. It's supposed to help the product with exposure. Give the development community the ability to check it out and that is what actually "bubbles-up" (as I recently heard it put) to management. It creates buzz both in the corporate world and in the trade papers. THAT is what eventually gets the orders in for the Enterprise version and THAT is where the revenue comes from. -EGM Dave Fish [Team Sybase] <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message news:3c8f89e1.13609559@199.93.177.77... > Well to be honest with you, I don't know if PB Desktop was a good > idea to begin with. (Line extensions rarely help a product). > > Honestly, the revenue from a low cost product like PB Desktop won't > cover the R&D needed to move PB forward, and the cost of supporting > such a product probably outweighs the revenue it brings in. > > I know people don't like to pay a lot of money for things, but really > as professional software developers, we need to be willing to invest > in our tool set. Back in 1993 I paid over $2,000 for a copy of > PowerBuilder Standard. I hated to part with the money, but I knew that > it was an investment in my career and my future. That was one of the > best investments I have ever made. If I could have seen 5-8 years into > the future to see where I would be financially and career wise after > learning PowerBuilder I would have paid five times as much for PB and > it still would have been a bargain. > > The bottom line is, if PB doesn't make money for Sybase, they won't > support it and invest in it. That is true of any company (at least one > that wants to stay in business). > > Sybase is making the investment in PowerBuilder expecting that it will > make money for them. Making PB Desktop more like the Enterprise > version would, in my opinion, seriously erode PB revenue. > > Regards, > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > > On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:23:16 -0500, "VictorReinhart" > <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote: > > >Back in its heyday, I saw PowerBuilder Desktop on the shelves at CompUSA. I > >think Sybase needs to adopt the MS strategy: Get an inexpensive version of the > >product into many people's hands. It will "bubble up" to management's > >attention. I just showed PB today to someone here, and he loves it! The key > >is: he *saw* it! > > > >Also, I think Sybase should re-think the PB Desktop strategy. I don't think > >it's a good idea to limit the product to only connect to "desktop" databases. > >Doing that makes no sense. Read the posts. A lot of people are confused and > >disappointed with this limitation. > > > >We need to encourage the pioneers at big companies to spend about $200 to buy PB > >Desktop on their own, then have success using the product. It *must* connect to > >Oracle, Sybase, SQL Server! People need to see the DataWindow -- the shining > >star of PB. If they can't connect to their Oracle Database, that won't happen. > >Please, please, please, limit the product another way. > > > >Marketing happens many ways: > > > >1) Advertising. > >Important, but very expensive. This should *not* be Sybase's primary strategy, > >but rather, the third strategy. > > > >2) Leading-Edge Developers > >People who take a chance on the $200 PB box at Comp USA. This *should* be *the* > >primary strategy. > > > >3) Students > >People who get PB almost free at school, and take a class. This *should* be > >Sybase's secondary marketing strategy. > > > >4) User Groups > >Wine and dine your user group presidents. We need more of them. > > > >That said, I would suggest we limit PB Desktop in other ways: > >a) Allow *full* connectivity > >b) Disable some advanced feature, such as Treeviews, or Dynamic SQL. Pick > >something which won't kill the project immediately. > >c) Help me here, folks! > > > >My humble opinion. > > > >>That being said, I am lucky(???) enough to have gotten involved in some > >>small degree with the marketing folks at Sybase, and they are doing a lot. > >>We might not all notice it, one reason being that their marketing budget - > >>for all products - is less than Microsoft plans to spend on .Net alone. > >>That's the benefit of having a market capitilization near $300B vs. the > >>almost $2B for Sybase. Nothing you can do about that. > > > > > >---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > >http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
The CD in shrink-wrapped (or rain-bags as I like to call them) magazines is a BRILLIANT idea. Now if somebody can get some smelling-salts for the marketing team we can continue... -EGM Bill Green[TeamSybase] <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message news:JHUuVDwyBHA.333@forums.sybase.com... > Dave, > > I think the idea brought forward here is valid though. The product is doing > well. The feature set is improving, the quality is improving. Now there's an > apparent (I say apparent because I'm not clued up enough to be definitive) > need to establish some market penetration. How about this: > > Do away with PB Desktop altogether. Sell PB Professional at a desktop-like > price. Get it into the software retailers stores, give it away at backyard > barbeques if you have to, but get the product in front of as many developers > as possible. Use the ePeople approach for paid-support (reduce the price if > necessary), so as to not overload the tech-support lines with folks who a) > want to know how to open the box and b) calling to complain about the price > of tech support. The concept has to do with a longer-term plan. Once the > product gains momentum, the Enterprise Edition capabilities (web-targets, > web-services, app-server integration, team development, Enterprise class > database access etc), will promote the product better than 10 marketing > campaigns. > > If you want to keep desktop around, then don't produce it as a product, but > just as a CD. Put the thing in PC Magazine and PC Week (and such other > high-distribution magazines), and just get the product out in front of > people. > > You need more market penetration, and not just to the Fortune 100. They > already know about it. > > > regards, > Bill > > > > > "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message > news:3c8f89e1.13609559@199.93.177.77... > > Well to be honest with you, I don't know if PB Desktop was a good > > idea to begin with. (Line extensions rarely help a product). > > > > Honestly, the revenue from a low cost product like PB Desktop won't > > cover the R&D needed to move PB forward, and the cost of supporting > > such a product probably outweighs the revenue it brings in. > > > > I know people don't like to pay a lot of money for things, but really > > as professional software developers, we need to be willing to invest > > in our tool set. Back in 1993 I paid over $2,000 for a copy of > > PowerBuilder Standard. I hated to part with the money, but I knew that > > it was an investment in my career and my future. That was one of the > > best investments I have ever made. If I could have seen 5-8 years into > > the future to see where I would be financially and career wise after > > learning PowerBuilder I would have paid five times as much for PB and > > it still would have been a bargain. > > > > The bottom line is, if PB doesn't make money for Sybase, they won't > > support it and invest in it. That is true of any company (at least one > > that wants to stay in business). > > > > Sybase is making the investment in PowerBuilder expecting that it will > > make money for them. Making PB Desktop more like the Enterprise > > version would, in my opinion, seriously erode PB revenue. > > > > Regards, > > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > > > > On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:23:16 -0500, "VictorReinhart" > > <victora.reinhart@phs.com> wrote: > > > > >Back in its heyday, I saw PowerBuilder Desktop on the shelves at CompUSA. > I > > >think Sybase needs to adopt the MS strategy: Get an inexpensive version > of the > > >product into many people's hands. It will "bubble up" to management's > > >attention. I just showed PB today to someone here, and he loves it! The > key > > >is: he *saw* it! > > > > > >Also, I think Sybase should re-think the PB Desktop strategy. I don't > think > > >it's a good idea to limit the product to only connect to "desktop" > databases. > > >Doing that makes no sense. Read the posts. A lot of people are confused > and > > >disappointed with this limitation. > > > > > >We need to encourage the pioneers at big companies to spend about $200 to > buy PB > > >Desktop on their own, then have success using the product. It *must* > connect to > > >Oracle, Sybase, SQL Server! People need to see the DataWindow -- the > shining > > >star of PB. If they can't connect to their Oracle Database, that won't > happen. > > >Please, please, please, limit the product another way. > > > > > >Marketing happens many ways: > > > > > >1) Advertising. > > >Important, but very expensive. This should *not* be Sybase's primary > strategy, > > >but rather, the third strategy. > > > > > >2) Leading-Edge Developers > > >People who take a chance on the $200 PB box at Comp USA. This *should* > be *the* > > >primary strategy. > > > > > >3) Students > > >People who get PB almost free at school, and take a class. This *should* > be > > >Sybase's secondary marketing strategy. > > > > > >4) User Groups > > >Wine and dine your user group presidents. We need more of them. > > > > > >That said, I would suggest we limit PB Desktop in other ways: > > >a) Allow *full* connectivity > > >b) Disable some advanced feature, such as Treeviews, or Dynamic SQL. > Pick > > >something which won't kill the project immediately. > > >c) Help me here, folks! > > > > > >My humble opinion. > > > > > >>That being said, I am lucky(???) enough to have gotten involved in some > > >>small degree with the marketing folks at Sybase, and they are doing a > lot. > > >>We might not all notice it, one reason being that their marketing > budget - > > >>for all products - is less than Microsoft plans to spend on .Net alone. > > >>That's the benefit of having a market capitilization near $300B vs. the > > >>almost $2B for Sybase. Nothing you can do about that. > > > > > > > > >---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > > >http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
No, some of us link Solaris<G>. Oh yeah, I'll go on record as saying I've never worn my beany...and never will<G> -- Larry Cermak [Team Sybase] Branick Consulting, Inc. www.branick-inc.com Web DataWindow eBook "Bug" <fenterbug@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:iD9mZD5yBHA.244@forums.sybase.com... > "Bill Norton" <bnorton@austin.rr.com> wrote in message > news:8gfCo44yBHA.133@forums.sybase.com... > > > snip < > > > and it is exactly this attitude that will keep it there until it is > > endeared only by a handful of propeller-heads running a Linux version of > PB on > > a box they built from scratch. > > I knew the TeamSybase guys wore propeller-beanies, but I didn't know they > all ran Linux. <bg> > > > snip < > > > Sorry... I had to be cheesy. > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
As excited as I have been about this thread, I was doubly excited to actually hear Sue promising exactly what I have wanted PB to develop into... a more open architecture which works with others in an abstract manner. Which is techno-babble (no offense, I'm just psyched) for "Just keep doing what you're doing and we'll take care of making it work with what you need it to work with". After hearing several people say "Well, how would we implement that exactly?", this is indeed good to hear. Of course we developers will have to tweak a few things and maybe write the abstract layer or implement the interfaces into our apps, but it is nice to hear about a commitment to WebSphere and WebLogic. This has, in my experience, been most often the reason for management getting the idea that PB was not scalable. -EGM Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in message news:5$MirR5yBHA.133@forums.sybase.com... > Bill, > > I don't know why you read what you read between the lines -- having known > Sue and the PB development team for a while, the effort to rebuild the > infrastructure are meant to support future product enhancements that people > are requesting today(!) but are simply not possible using the current > implementation of either the PBVM, the datawindow engine, etc. > > If PowerBuilder was to support .NET, the compiler would have to be modified > to emit MSIL -- that's infrastructure. > If WebSphere was to host PB NVO, the PBVM would likely have to be modified > to support WebSphere-specific interfaces -- that's infrastructure. > > -- > <hopethishelps/> > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] > mySybase -- http://www.sybase.com/mysybase > > "Bill Norton" <bnorton@austin.rr.com> wrote in message > news:8gfCo44yBHA.133@forums.sybase.com... > > Sue Dunnell wrote: > > >We will be rebuilding some of our core functionality. PB is over 10 years > old, > > >and some of its infrastructure needs to be modified/rebuilt. This is true > for > > >any software product; PB was originally developed to address a different > > >programming environment before the many languages and standards we have > today > > >existed. This is work we are currently doing, and it's a work in > progress, but > > >it's not something that can sell new versions of PB - it's not a sexy new > > >feature to write about like XML is. > > > > Well, this pretty much confirms the suspicion I have always had that the > PB > > developers are much, much more interested in chasing any hot new > technology in a > > short skirt than taking care of business on the home front. > > > > In my opinion, it is exactly this attitude that has caused PowerBuilder to > slip > > into the status of a second-tier, also-ran development tool in the minds > of most > > people, and it is exactly this attitude that will keep it there until it > is > > endeared only by a handful of propeller-heads running a Linux version of > PB on > > a box they built from scratch. > > > > I strongly disagree with your claim that cleaning up the "infrastructure" > will > > not sell any more copies of PB. This is, in fact, the primary reason I had > to > > stop recommending PB to my clients, so these are lost sales that can be > directly > > attributed to PB's usability problems. > > > > > > Bill Norton > > Austin, TX > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Sometimes my girlfriend makes me wear mine... but we won't go there. <g> Larry Cermak [Team Sybase] <lcermak@branick-inc.com> wrote in message news:DQFkPY6yBHA.292@forums.sybase.com... > No, some of us link Solaris<G>. > > Oh yeah, I'll go on record as saying I've never worn my beany...and never > will<G> > > -- > Larry Cermak [Team Sybase] > Branick Consulting, Inc. > www.branick-inc.com > Web DataWindow eBook > > > "Bug" <fenterbug@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:iD9mZD5yBHA.244@forums.sybase.com... > > "Bill Norton" <bnorton@austin.rr.com> wrote in message > > news:8gfCo44yBHA.133@forums.sybase.com... > > > > > snip < > > > > > and it is exactly this attitude that will keep it there until it is > > > endeared only by a handful of propeller-heads running a Linux version > of > > PB on > > > a box they built from scratch. > > > > I knew the TeamSybase guys wore propeller-beanies, but I didn't know they > > all ran Linux. <bg> > > > > > snip < > > > > > > Sorry... I had to be cheesy. > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
If cleaning up the infrastructure means a product that is more stable, has fewer bugs, and is easier to fit with new features, that surely is a selling point. Or have you not read the reviews of the gamma [that's the next Greek letter after beta] version of VS.NET? As for XML, before too long it's going to be mandatory for any application that wants to talk to another, as much an expected part of the scenery as IP and SQL. Do it, and do it right. Bill Norton wrote in message <8gfCo44yBHA.133@forums.sybase.com>... >Sue Dunnell wrote: >>We will be rebuilding some of our core functionality. PB is over 10 years old, >>and some of its infrastructure needs to be modified/rebuilt. This is true for >>any software product; PB was originally developed to address a different >>programming environment before the many languages and standards we have today >>existed. This is work we are currently doing, and it's a work in progress, but >>it's not something that can sell new versions of PB - it's not a sexy new >>feature to write about like XML is. > >Well, this pretty much confirms the suspicion I have always had that the PB >developers are much, much more interested in chasing any hot new technology in a >short skirt than taking care of business on the home front. > >In my opinion, it is exactly this attitude that has caused PowerBuilder to slip >into the status of a second-tier, also-ran development tool in the minds of most >people, and it is exactly this attitude that will keep it there until it is >endeared only by a handful of propeller-heads running a Linux version of PB on >a box they built from scratch. > >I strongly disagree with your claim that cleaning up the "infrastructure" will >not sell any more copies of PB. This is, in fact, the primary reason I had to >stop recommending PB to my clients, so these are lost sales that can be directly >attributed to PB's usability problems. > > >Bill Norton >Austin, TX
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] wrote: >I don't know why you read what you read between the lines -- having known >Sue and the PB development team for a while, the effort to rebuild the >infrastructure are meant to support future product enhancements that people >are requesting today(!) but are simply not possible using the current >implementation of either the PBVM, the datawindow engine, etc. Well, it's possible that my interpretation of the word "infrastructure" was incorrect. Maybe it was just wishful thinking on my part that someone at PB had even noticed that there are usability problems. So, Sue, let me ask you directly, is the usability of PB even a concern at all to you? Bill Norton Austin, TX
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Agreed. Most of the folks who write books on these products start writing with the first beta. Sometimes it shows, like when features are pulled at the last minute or the IDE is changed at the last minute, and it's too late to stop the book going out with infromation based on a late beta. That's just the way it goes. On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:33:50 -0500, in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion Edward Muesch <emuesch@hotmail.com> wrote: >But that's really true for all the big IDE's. MS books (even non-MS Press) >seem to come out weeks or even months before the product ships. >Case-in-point; .Net books are all over the place. This allows the largest >possible window of marketability to the author/publisher. The IDE is >usually (although not always) finalized long before final Beta. The last >couple of Beta versions just get the kinks out of the internals. > >-EGM > > >Paul Horan[TeamSybase] <paulhATvcisolutionsDOTcom> wrote in message >news:39#c4dsyBHA.333@forums.sybase.com... >> And, it's so hard to get authors to commit to writing a book, when the >> product comes out with a new, enhanced IDE every 12-18 months... By the >> time you understand it yourself, write the book, edit it and publish it, >the >> next version comes out and obviates all your work!!! >> >> -- >> Paul A. Horan[TeamSybase] >> VCI Springfield, MA >> www.vcisolutions.com >> >> >> "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> >> wrote in message news:wzxm4tryBHA.333@forums.sybase.com... >> > Folks like CompUSA will start stocking it (and Borders will start >stocking >> > books on PB) when they sense there is a demand for such. So the issue >is >> > to create 'momentum' again, and the CompUSAs and Borders will take care >of >> > the rest. >> > >> > Bruce 'former hardware/software sales guy' Armstrong >> > >> > On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:11:18 -0800, >> > in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion >> > Woody <woody@splawns.com> wrote: >> > >IMHO PowerBuilder is never going to happen the way it should if you can >> not >> > >buy it at a regular software outlet like CompUSA. How you do that, I >> don't >> > >know, but others do. If Delphi can, why not us? >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] >> > http://www.teamsybase.com >> > http://www.needhim.org >> > >> > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- >> > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp >> >> > > Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] http://www.teamsybase.com http://www.needhim.org ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Strangely enough though, there are usually mentions in the text about the "iffy-ness" of a feature being available in the final release. I'm not sure if the authors have an inside-track into team meetings or if they just pay close attention to all the pre-release reviews from the tech-publishing industry veterans who almost always do. -EGM Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> wrote in message news:s6dISn6yBHA.133@forums.sybase.com... > Agreed. Most of the folks who write books on these products start writing > with the first beta. Sometimes it shows, like when features are pulled at > the last minute or the IDE is changed at the last minute, and it's too late > to stop the book going out with infromation based on a late beta. That's > just the way it goes. > > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:33:50 -0500, > in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion > Edward Muesch <emuesch@hotmail.com> wrote: > >But that's really true for all the big IDE's. MS books (even non-MS Press) > >seem to come out weeks or even months before the product ships. > >Case-in-point; .Net books are all over the place. This allows the largest > >possible window of marketability to the author/publisher. The IDE is > >usually (although not always) finalized long before final Beta. The last > >couple of Beta versions just get the kinks out of the internals. > > > >-EGM > > > > > >Paul Horan[TeamSybase] <paulhATvcisolutionsDOTcom> wrote in message > >news:39#c4dsyBHA.333@forums.sybase.com... > >> And, it's so hard to get authors to commit to writing a book, when the > >> product comes out with a new, enhanced IDE every 12-18 months... By the > >> time you understand it yourself, write the book, edit it and publish it, > >the > >> next version comes out and obviates all your work!!! > >> > >> -- > >> Paul A. Horan[TeamSybase] > >> VCI Springfield, MA > >> www.vcisolutions.com > >> > >> > >> "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> > >> wrote in message news:wzxm4tryBHA.333@forums.sybase.com... > >> > Folks like CompUSA will start stocking it (and Borders will start > >stocking > >> > books on PB) when they sense there is a demand for such. So the issue > >is > >> > to create 'momentum' again, and the CompUSAs and Borders will take care > >of > >> > the rest. > >> > > >> > Bruce 'former hardware/software sales guy' Armstrong > >> > > >> > On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:11:18 -0800, > >> > in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion > >> > Woody <woody@splawns.com> wrote: > >> > >IMHO PowerBuilder is never going to happen the way it should if you can > >> not > >> > >buy it at a regular software outlet like CompUSA. How you do that, I > >> don't > >> > >know, but others do. If Delphi can, why not us? > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] > >> > http://www.teamsybase.com > >> > http://www.needhim.org > >> > > >> > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > >> > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp > >> > >> > > > > > > Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] > http://www.teamsybase.com > http://www.needhim.org > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I think I searched the whole thread and I can't find any specifics on these "usability problems". I agree (and I'm sure everyone else does too) that the IDE was unstable in certain versions. There are also a number of known GPF situations and bugs but PB doesn't really stand-out from other IDE's due to them in my opinion (6.5.1 - very good, 7.0.3 - pretty good, 8.0.1 pretty good). Please provide specifics so we can at least discuss them as a group and Sybase can add those to the list of issues they in turn can at least consider. -EGM Bill Norton <bnorton@austin.rr.com> wrote in message news:7yIFel6yBHA.292@forums.sybase.com... > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] wrote: > > >I don't know why you read what you read between the lines -- having known > >Sue and the PB development team for a while, the effort to rebuild the > >infrastructure are meant to support future product enhancements that people > >are requesting today(!) but are simply not possible using the current > >implementation of either the PBVM, the datawindow engine, etc. > > Well, it's possible that my interpretation of the word "infrastructure" was > incorrect. Maybe it was just wishful thinking on my part that someone at PB had > even noticed that there are usability problems. > > So, Sue, let me ask you directly, is the usability of PB even a concern at all > to you? > > > Bill Norton > Austin, TX
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Edward Muesch wrote: >I think I searched the whole thread and I can't find any specifics on these >"usability problems". Please take a look at the thread called "The Usability Issue..." >I agree (and I'm sure everyone else does too) that >the IDE was unstable in certain versions. I'm not talking about bugs , GPF's, etc. That's been covered. I'm talking about human factors, the interface, and usability issues. If you are unfamiliar with these issues in general you might take a look at the "Interface Hall of Shame" web site, http://www.iarchitect.com/mfame.htm . Another good site is http://www.asktog.com/ . Bill Norton Austin, TX
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Bill, While I tend to support both views of any discussion, being that there are different sides to any argument, I'm afraid your rantings are beginning to lose luster. You've already stated that you're working with PB6.5. Would you agree that it would be unfair of you to comment on usability of a product 2 generations further down the road? This would just be a guess, but I don't think PB6.5 is going to be enhanced anymore, not even for usability. regards, Bill Green "Bill Norton" <bnorton@austin.rr.com> wrote in message news:7yIFel6yBHA.292@forums.sybase.com... > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] wrote: > > >I don't know why you read what you read between the lines -- having known > >Sue and the PB development team for a while, the effort to rebuild the > >infrastructure are meant to support future product enhancements that people > >are requesting today(!) but are simply not possible using the current > >implementation of either the PBVM, the datawindow engine, etc. > > Well, it's possible that my interpretation of the word "infrastructure" was > incorrect. Maybe it was just wishful thinking on my part that someone at PB had > even noticed that there are usability problems. > > So, Sue, let me ask you directly, is the usability of PB even a concern at all > to you? > > > Bill Norton > Austin, TX
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I saw the thread when I responded to you earlier today. With all due respect, if you have issues then you could at least state them. I understand your frustration with the Library Painter but - and again I don't mean to diminish your right to a position - you haven't really provided any details on your position and I really don't want to go to a website to get someone else's whom you happen to agree with. Maybe we should just leave it at that. -EGM Bill Norton <bnorton@austin.rr.com> wrote in message news:Vuojta7yBHA.204@forums.sybase.com... > > Edward Muesch wrote: > >I think I searched the whole thread and I can't find any specifics on these > >"usability problems". > > Please take a look at the thread called "The Usability Issue..." > > >I agree (and I'm sure everyone else does too) that > >the IDE was unstable in certain versions. > > I'm not talking about bugs , GPF's, etc. That's been covered. I'm talking about > human factors, the interface, and usability issues. If you are unfamiliar with > these issues in general you might take a look at the "Interface Hall of Shame" > web site, http://www.iarchitect.com/mfame.htm . Another good site is > http://www.asktog.com/ . > > > > Bill Norton > Austin, TX
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
My apologies. I let my irritation get ahead of my brain for a second. Every opinion counts. regards, Bill Green "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message news:KK7Wrl8yBHA.244@forums.sybase.com... > Bill, > > While I tend to support both views of any discussion, being that there are > different sides to any argument, I'm afraid your rantings are beginning to > lose luster. You've already stated that you're working with PB6.5. Would you > agree that it would be unfair of you to comment on usability of a product 2 > generations further down the road? This would just be a guess, but I don't > think PB6.5 is going to be enhanced anymore, not even for usability. > > regards, > Bill Green > > > > > > "Bill Norton" <bnorton@austin.rr.com> wrote in message > news:7yIFel6yBHA.292@forums.sybase.com... > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] wrote: > > > > >I don't know why you read what you read between the lines -- having known > > >Sue and the PB development team for a while, the effort to rebuild the > > >infrastructure are meant to support future product enhancements that > people > > >are requesting today(!) but are simply not possible using the current > > >implementation of either the PBVM, the datawindow engine, etc. > > > > Well, it's possible that my interpretation of the word "infrastructure" > was > > incorrect. Maybe it was just wishful thinking on my part that someone at > PB had > > even noticed that there are usability problems. > > > > So, Sue, let me ask you directly, is the usability of PB even a concern at > all > > to you? > > > > > > Bill Norton > > Austin, TX > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Bill, Can I suggest you download the PB8 evaluation version: http://www.sybase.com/pb8_eval and take a look at it before we get too deep into usability issues. IMHO, PB8 took great strides in that area. On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:41:23 -0500, in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion Bill Norton <bnorton@austin.rr.com> wrote: >Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] wrote: > >>I don't know why you read what you read between the lines -- having known >>Sue and the PB development team for a while, the effort to rebuild the >>infrastructure are meant to support future product enhancements that people >>are requesting today(!) but are simply not possible using the current >>implementation of either the PBVM, the datawindow engine, etc. > >Well, it's possible that my interpretation of the word "infrastructure" was >incorrect. Maybe it was just wishful thinking on my part that someone at PB had >even noticed that there are usability problems. > >So, Sue, let me ask you directly, is the usability of PB even a concern at all >to you? > > >Bill Norton >Austin, TX Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] http://www.teamsybase.com http://www.needhim.org ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
As memory serves, Oracle 'saved' that million dollars by trimming staff. I'm sure Sybase could also claim the same.... On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:57:16 -0500, in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion Jerry Siegel <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote: >The solution to the usability problem may be to "eat your own dog food". By >which I mean use PB for Sybase's own internal business applications. >Besides, maybe you would get to match Oracle's claim of saving a million >dollars by using their own applications. > >Bill Norton wrote in message <8gfCo44yBHA.133@forums.sybase.com>... >>Sue Dunnell wrote: >>>We will be rebuilding some of our core functionality. PB is over 10 years >old, >>>and some of its infrastructure needs to be modified/rebuilt. This is true >for >>>any software product; PB was originally developed to address a different >>>programming environment before the many languages and standards we have >today >>>existed. This is work we are currently doing, and it's a work in progress, >but >>>it's not something that can sell new versions of PB - it's not a sexy new >>>feature to write about like XML is. >> >>Well, this pretty much confirms the suspicion I have always had that the PB >>developers are much, much more interested in chasing any hot new technology >in a >>short skirt than taking care of business on the home front. >> >>In my opinion, it is exactly this attitude that has caused PowerBuilder to >slip >>into the status of a second-tier, also-ran development tool in the minds of >most >>people, and it is exactly this attitude that will keep it there until it is >>endeared only by a handful of propeller-heads running a Linux version of >PB on >>a box they built from scratch. >> >>I strongly disagree with your claim that cleaning up the "infrastructure" >will >>not sell any more copies of PB. This is, in fact, the primary reason I had >to >>stop recommending PB to my clients, so these are lost sales that can be >directly >>attributed to PB's usability problems. >> >> >>Bill Norton >>Austin, TX > > Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] http://www.teamsybase.com http://www.needhim.org ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I agree 100%. I just hope they don't break too many things in the process. Our migration from 6.5 to 8 was littered with issues where they "broke" functionality that used to work. Especially in the datawindow. We even got a response back from engineering that basically said "the datawindow was never intended to work that way so we're not going to fix it." They did finally back down, but it was REALLY irritating to get such a response. Mike Kruchten "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message news:asRhAl6yBHA.292@forums.sybase.com... > If cleaning up the infrastructure means a product that is more stable, has > fewer bugs, and is easier to fit with new features, that surely is a selling > point. Or have you not read the reviews of the gamma [that's the next Greek > letter after beta] version of VS.NET? > As for XML, before too long it's going to be mandatory for any application > that wants to talk to another, as much an expected part of the scenery as IP > and SQL. Do it, and do it right. >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
What were you doing that broke? I've migrated dozens of apps from 6.x to 8.x without issues. On Fri, 15 Mar 2002 12:27:12 -0600, in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion Mike Kruchten <mkruchten@fsisolutions.com> wrote: >I agree 100%. I just hope they don't break too many things in the process. >Our migration from 6.5 to 8 was littered with issues where they "broke" >functionality that used to work. Especially in the datawindow. > >We even got a response back from engineering that basically said "the >datawindow was never intended to work that way so we're not going to fix >it." They did finally back down, but it was REALLY irritating to get such a >response. > >Mike Kruchten > > >"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message >news:asRhAl6yBHA.292@forums.sybase.com... >> If cleaning up the infrastructure means a product that is more stable, has >> fewer bugs, and is easier to fit with new features, that surely is a >selling >> point. Or have you not read the reviews of the gamma [that's the next >Greek >> letter after beta] version of VS.NET? >> As for XML, before too long it's going to be mandatory for any application >> that wants to talk to another, as much an expected part of the scenery as >IP >> and SQL. Do it, and do it right. >> > > > Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] http://www.teamsybase.com http://www.needhim.org ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Of course things will get broken. And fixed. And maybe even documented, like the necessary changes to event order in tree and list views that happened in 8 due to a shift to the Windows native controls. And maybe the *VERY* necessary regression testing will improve the test suite as well. Mike Kruchten wrote in message ... >I agree 100%. I just hope they don't break too many things in the process. >Our migration from 6.5 to 8 was littered with issues where they "broke" >functionality that used to work. Especially in the datawindow. > >We even got a response back from engineering that basically said "the >datawindow was never intended to work that way so we're not going to fix >it." They did finally back down, but it was REALLY irritating to get such a >response. > >Mike Kruchten > > >"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message >news:asRhAl6yBHA.292@forums.sybase.com... >> If cleaning up the infrastructure means a product that is more stable, has >> fewer bugs, and is easier to fit with new features, that surely is a >selling >> point. Or have you not read the reviews of the gamma [that's the next >Greek >> letter after beta] version of VS.NET? >> As for XML, before too long it's going to be mandatory for any application >> that wants to talk to another, as much an expected part of the scenery as >IP >> and SQL. Do it, and do it right. >> > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
"Mike Kruchten" <mkruchten@fsisolutions.com> wrote in message news:j6arF$EzBHA.206@forums.sybase.com... > We even got a response back from engineering that basically said "the > datawindow was never intended to work that way so we're not going to fix > it." They did finally back down, but it was REALLY irritating to get such a > response. Heh. There was a bug in 4 that would cause a repaint if you switched menus in an MDI app. Normally, it would be too fast to notice, but we were displaying a fairly large autocad drawing that took several seconds to render. PowerSoft's response was "Yes, it's a bug, but the menu code's complex and we don't want to touch it. It's not in PB5, so upgrade to that when we release it." -- Mike Swaim Michael.Swaim@UBSWenergy.com Disclaimer: Yeah, like I speak for <employer>.
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
"BEDick" <bdick@cox.net> wrote in message news:exy2iFtyBHA.333@forums.sybase.com... > > roy kiesler 3969 > terry voth 3604 > simon caldwell 2982 > bruce armstrong 2945 > terry dykstra 2143 > eric aling 2111 > philip salgannik 1653 I never wanted to join - too many restrictions on online behaviour :-)) pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-)) Philip Salgannik > bill green 1313 > jim o'neil 1113 > bug 994
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
"E Chapa" <evita.chapa@commtechinc.com> wrote in message news:XxZzZ#qyBHA.133@forums.sybase.com... > Tell it Victor! I went looking around Sybase's eshop area and about had a > cow when I saw the price difference between desktop and professional. I > agree - why can't desktop connect to oracle? Sure we all don't have > bizillions of $ to have Oracle enterprise. I saw this somehere but can you > connect to oracle personal in PB (any version) now? Sure you can - ODBC is always there for you. pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-)) Philip Salgannik
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
There were numerous little "gotchas", but in this particular case it was the auto vertical scrolling in a datawindow when tabbing to a field that wasn't visible. First they fixed the issue, but the fixed caused a display problem when reverse tabbing so we told them it wasn't fixed. That's when we got the "it was never meant to do that so we're not fixing it" response, which we (politely) rejected by pointing out that it worked in 7 and 6.5, and to the best of my recall further back than that. I've just been notified that it's "fixed" again and should be in build 9100. Mike "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com> wrote in message news:kIEu8$EzBHA.333@forums.sybase.com... > What were you doing that broke? I've migrated dozens of apps from 6.x to 8.x > without issues. > > On Fri, 15 Mar 2002 12:27:12 -0600, > in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.futures_discussion > Mike Kruchten <mkruchten@fsisolutions.com> wrote: > >I agree 100%. I just hope they don't break too many things in the process. > >Our migration from 6.5 to 8 was littered with issues where they "broke" > >functionality that used to work. Especially in the datawindow. > > > >We even got a response back from engineering that basically said "the > >datawindow was never intended to work that way so we're not going to fix > >it." They did finally back down, but it was REALLY irritating to get such a > >response. > > > >Mike Kruchten > > > > > >"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message > >news:asRhAl6yBHA.292@forums.sybase.com... > >> If cleaning up the infrastructure means a product that is more stable, has > >> fewer bugs, and is easier to fit with new features, that surely is a > >selling > >> point. Or have you not read the reviews of the gamma [that's the next > >Greek > >> letter after beta] version of VS.NET? > >> As for XML, before too long it's going to be mandatory for any application > >> that wants to talk to another, as much an expected part of the scenery as > >IP > >> and SQL. Do it, and do it right. > >> > > > > > > > > Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase] > http://www.teamsybase.com > http://www.needhim.org > > ---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==--- > http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Thanks for the info Evita "Philip Salgannik" <philemax@attbi.com> wrote in message news:eaMlXDfzBHA.206@forums.sybase.com... > > > > > "E Chapa" <evita.chapa@commtechinc.com> wrote in message > news:XxZzZ#qyBHA.133@forums.sybase.com... > > Tell it Victor! I went looking around Sybase's eshop area and about had a > > cow when I saw the price difference between desktop and professional. I > > agree - why can't desktop connect to oracle? Sure we all don't have > > bizillions of $ to have Oracle enterprise. I saw this somehere but can > you > > connect to oracle personal in PB (any version) now? > > Sure you can - ODBC is always there for you. > > pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-)) > Philip Salgannik > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Actually PB Desktop is restricted to use only the ODBC drivers that come with the product. Regards, Dave Fish [TeamSybase] On Sun, 17 Mar 2002 15:10:44 -0500, "Philip Salgannik" <philemax@attbi.com> wrote: > > > > >"E Chapa" <evita.chapa@commtechinc.com> wrote in message >news:XxZzZ#qyBHA.133@forums.sybase.com... >> Tell it Victor! I went looking around Sybase's eshop area and about had a >> cow when I saw the price difference between desktop and professional. I >> agree - why can't desktop connect to oracle? Sure we all don't have >> bizillions of $ to have Oracle enterprise. I saw this somehere but can >you >> connect to oracle personal in PB (any version) now? > >Sure you can - ODBC is always there for you. > >pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-)) >Philip Salgannik > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Isn't that what I said? -- This is a FAQ, read Help, then search www.groups.google.com pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-)) Philip Salgannik "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message news:3c965c1d.2868314@199.93.177.77... > Actually PB Desktop is restricted to use only the ODBC drivers that > come with the product. > > Regards, > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > > On Sun, 17 Mar 2002 15:10:44 -0500, "Philip Salgannik" > <philemax@attbi.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >"E Chapa" <evita.chapa@commtechinc.com> wrote in message > >news:XxZzZ#qyBHA.133@forums.sybase.com... > >> Tell it Victor! I went looking around Sybase's eshop area and about had a > >> cow when I saw the price difference between desktop and professional. I > >> agree - why can't desktop connect to oracle? Sure we all don't have > >> bizillions of $ to have Oracle enterprise. I saw this somehere but can > >you > >> connect to oracle personal in PB (any version) now? > > > >Sure you can - ODBC is always there for you. > > > >pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-)) > >Philip Salgannik > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I just wanted to clarify (for Evita) that PB Desktop will not connect to any version of Oracle. Regards, Dave Fish [TeamSybase] On Mon, 18 Mar 2002 20:37:43 -0500, "Philip Salgannik" <philemax@attbi.com> wrote: >Isn't that what I said? > >-- >This is a FAQ, read Help, then search www.groups.google.com > >pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-)) >Philip Salgannik > >"Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message >news:3c965c1d.2868314@199.93.177.77... >> Actually PB Desktop is restricted to use only the ODBC drivers that >> come with the product. >> >> Regards, >> Dave Fish [TeamSybase] >> >> On Sun, 17 Mar 2002 15:10:44 -0500, "Philip Salgannik" >> <philemax@attbi.com> wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >"E Chapa" <evita.chapa@commtechinc.com> wrote in message >> >news:XxZzZ#qyBHA.133@forums.sybase.com... >> >> Tell it Victor! I went looking around Sybase's eshop area and about >had a >> >> cow when I saw the price difference between desktop and professional. >I >> >> agree - why can't desktop connect to oracle? Sure we all don't have >> >> bizillions of $ to have Oracle enterprise. I saw this somehere but can >> >you >> >> connect to oracle personal in PB (any version) now? >> > >> >Sure you can - ODBC is always there for you. >> > >> >pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-)) >> >Philip Salgannik >> > >> > >> > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
That's what I was wondering.. Thanks Evita "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message news:3c97540e.6190741@199.93.177.77... > I just wanted to clarify (for Evita) that PB Desktop will not connect > to any version of Oracle. > > Regards, > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > > On Mon, 18 Mar 2002 20:37:43 -0500, "Philip Salgannik" > <philemax@attbi.com> wrote: > > >Isn't that what I said? > > > >-- > >This is a FAQ, read Help, then search www.groups.google.com > > > >pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-)) > >Philip Salgannik > > > >"Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message > >news:3c965c1d.2868314@199.93.177.77... > >> Actually PB Desktop is restricted to use only the ODBC drivers that > >> come with the product. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > >> > >> On Sun, 17 Mar 2002 15:10:44 -0500, "Philip Salgannik" > >> <philemax@attbi.com> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >"E Chapa" <evita.chapa@commtechinc.com> wrote in message > >> >news:XxZzZ#qyBHA.133@forums.sybase.com... > >> >> Tell it Victor! I went looking around Sybase's eshop area and about > >had a > >> >> cow when I saw the price difference between desktop and professional. > >I > >> >> agree - why can't desktop connect to oracle? Sure we all don't have > >> >> bizillions of $ to have Oracle enterprise. I saw this somehere but can > >> >you > >> >> connect to oracle personal in PB (any version) now? > >> > > >> >Sure you can - ODBC is always there for you. > >> > > >> >pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-)) > >> >Philip Salgannik > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
It WILL connect to Personal Oracle using ODBC.
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
You guys are really on to something! I hope Sybase marketing is listening... "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message news:I#TclWhyBHA.318@forums.sybase.com... > Don't limit the Web DataWindow, limit the server that realizes it to a > one-connection developer's edition. > Give them out like AOL disks! > > Edward Muesch wrote in message ... > >I believe you mean to suggest that that was your .02 dollars worth <g> > > > >Free PB Desktop with limited Web Datawindow. Place limitations that > >wouldn't stop the little guy but only prevent the Corporate client from > >being able to use it. > > > >Do this correctly and advertise the s--t out of it and revenue loss might > >not even come to be, but watch the market share soar... slowly at first but > >there is a history here, it's not a new product. So the marketing model is > >different and the market-share wouldn't just dry up once a price is placed > >back on it. The buzz would be enormous with Sybase lining the revenue > >streams (through advertising) of those who could help with the "oh gee, > >what's this?" crowd. > > > >The real-world isn't pretty but it works! > > > >-EGM > > > >Woody <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message > >news:bn8kS3gyBHA.304@forums.sybase.com... > >> >I believe you mean to suggest getting them out of the "user groups > >> > >> Yes, that's what I meant. Not newsgroups. > >> > >> I understand what you're saying. We're all in this for something and > it's > >> not all out of the "goodness of our hearts". But since what we're > >talking > >> about here are perceptions, to me Sybase seems to be all about Corporate > >> Corporate Corporate and Big Corporate at that. If this had made this > >> product successful I would say continue it, but as yet, it hasn't. > >> Microsoft is obviously aware of corporations too but they think different > >> where marketing is concerned. All that said, I think Sybase has a lot > >going > >> for them. I'm "fer-em" not "agin-em". They're very classy in their own > >> way, but very un-people oriented in their marketing. Very corporate > >> oriented instead. > >> > >> Just my .02 cents worth. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> "Edward Muesch" <emuesch@hotmail.com> wrote in message > >> news:XVfHqbgyBHA.322@forums.sybase.com... > >> > I believe you mean to suggest getting them out of the "user groups". > As > >> far > >> > as that goes I think they are as much a player in this as anyone is. > >Even > >> > more so in that their involvement in marketing their wares gets the > >> > attention of the corporate customer as well as the "vendor" (in this > >case, > >> > Sybase). The user group, however, might be a little more aggressive in > >> > providing the "common man" with resources via a web-site and > newsletter. > >> > The "content" of what a user group provides to it's members can be > >> augmented > >> > in many ways in addition to the "pizza-and-soda" meetings which I agree > >> are > >> > almost pure marketing presentation. But I think those presentations > are > >> > integral to the synergy of Vendor (Sybase) - Third-party marketer - > >User. > >> > Their advertising dollars also translate into sales and generate the PB > >> > footprint on the pages of the material the decision makers (our bosses) > >> read > >> > day-to-day. Their demise (or discontinuation of support for PB) has > >been > >> > instrumental in continuing the decreasing market share PB has in the > >> > corporate world. > >> > > >> > My 2 cents. > >> > > >> > -EGM > >> > > >> > Woody <woody@splawns.com> wrote in message > >> > news:DzlZ8RfyBHA.204@forums.sybase.com... > >> > > One of the things you could do to help PB's future is to get the very > >> big > >> > > corporations out of the newsgroups.. > >> > > > >> > > I can't speak for everyone, and I am not telling how it is, only how > >it > >> > > seems in this part of the country. Our user group (now dead) seemed > >to > >> be > >> > > like one big adverstiment for big companies in and out of town. We > >did > >> > very > >> > > little by way of how the common man, an ordinary programmer, might do > >> > > things. > >> > > > >> > > Hope I haven't been unfair to anyone, but this is how it seemed to > me. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
IMHO, .net based PowerBuilder will be the only way for Sybase to get going again. Too many jumped off for Java, marketing for PB was just too weak, (esp. here in Europe, nobody knows PB - well, a few do :), But if Sybase can do the trick to integrate the Datawindow as a 'managed class' and create MSIL instead of pcode (to mention the most important tasks), and then, with the help of good marketing (lots of threads about this going on here) making it well known - PB will be alive. my 2 cents (EURO of course) -- Roland Muhlberger -- ROMU Software easy PB pasting -- SmartPaste at http://www.romu.com/smartpaste "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3c8e238d.7608760@199.93.177.77... > That subject line should get your attention. <g> > > I'm very pleased with the participation in this group. We've obviously > provided a well for a very thirsty group of developers! > > As you may or may not know, PB 9 is about to go into Beta and the > feature set has pretty much been frozen. I know a lot of these > requests are for very useful features and hopefully many will some day > be incorporated into PB. I don't know what can be done for PB 9 at > this point. Just don't want to falsely get people's hopes up. > > What I would like to do, is raise the discussion to a higher level of > abstraction. Instead of specifics (please feel free to continue to > post those too) I would like to get a feel for where you, as a PB > developer would like to see PowerBuilder go in the future. > > Do you want it to generate Java? Do you want it to compile to the MSIL > layer for .NET? Do you think it should focus more on features for > client server applications? Do you think it should incorporate more > features to make web development easier? Is it important to you that > PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume them) or does that > not interest you in the least? (These are just some ideas, I'd like to > hear others.) > > What do you think Sybase needs to do with PowerBuilder to make it > thrive and regain some of the glory it had a few years ago? > > I've read some of your messages about it being too late and I > understand the bitterness you may feel. Unfortunately I don't have a > time machine so I can't go back a few years and change Sybase's past > strategy with regard to PowerBuilder. We do have an opportunity now to > influence the direction that PB goes in and I'm asking for your ideas > to start that change now. > > Regards, > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
You reminded me of something else... machine code. In diverse development environments with non-PB people (and especially ex-PB people) involved in group discussions, the biggest vulnerability in discussing PB as a viable future technology is the "interpreted" nature of pcode. A year or two ago this wasn't that bad as Java has the same profile. A Virtual Machine was acceptable with the argument that this is what allows multi-platform development. But with the discontinuation of other platforms for PB and Java now seen as "too slow" for the client-side and machine-code for PB as yet another "instability" point for PB (in that using the option is frowned upon even by the very company that provides the "so-called" capability) this needs to be fixed. The horse is already out of the barn on this and removing the capability would just be seen as "downsizing" the product by a company that may possibly getting ready to discontinue supporting the technology. -EGM Roland M�hlberger <office@romu.com> wrote in message news:t8L9a7R0BHA.272@forums.sybase.com... > IMHO, .net based PowerBuilder will be the only way > for Sybase to get going again. Too many jumped off > for Java, marketing for PB was just too weak, (esp. > here in Europe, nobody knows PB - well, a few do :), > But if Sybase can do the trick to integrate the > Datawindow as a 'managed class' and create MSIL > instead of pcode (to mention the most important > tasks), and then, with the help of good marketing > (lots of threads about this going on here) making > it well known - PB will be alive. > > my 2 cents (EURO of course) > > -- > Roland Muhlberger -- ROMU Software > easy PB pasting -- SmartPaste at http://www.romu.com/smartpaste > > "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:3c8e238d.7608760@199.93.177.77... > > That subject line should get your attention. <g> > > > > I'm very pleased with the participation in this group. We've obviously > > provided a well for a very thirsty group of developers! > > > > As you may or may not know, PB 9 is about to go into Beta and the > > feature set has pretty much been frozen. I know a lot of these > > requests are for very useful features and hopefully many will some day > > be incorporated into PB. I don't know what can be done for PB 9 at > > this point. Just don't want to falsely get people's hopes up. > > > > What I would like to do, is raise the discussion to a higher level of > > abstraction. Instead of specifics (please feel free to continue to > > post those too) I would like to get a feel for where you, as a PB > > developer would like to see PowerBuilder go in the future. > > > > Do you want it to generate Java? Do you want it to compile to the MSIL > > layer for .NET? Do you think it should focus more on features for > > client server applications? Do you think it should incorporate more > > features to make web development easier? Is it important to you that > > PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume them) or does that > > not interest you in the least? (These are just some ideas, I'd like to > > hear others.) > > > > What do you think Sybase needs to do with PowerBuilder to make it > > thrive and regain some of the glory it had a few years ago? > > > > I've read some of your messages about it being too late and I > > understand the bitterness you may feel. Unfortunately I don't have a > > time machine so I can't go back a few years and change Sybase's past > > strategy with regard to PowerBuilder. We do have an opportunity now to > > influence the direction that PB goes in and I'm asking for your ideas > > to start that change now. > > > > Regards, > > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
It will be interesting to see how much the .NET common runtime environment becomes like a virtual machine. Edward Muesch wrote in message ... >You reminded me of something else... machine code. In diverse development >environments with non-PB people (and especially ex-PB people) involved in >group discussions, the biggest vulnerability in discussing PB as a viable >future technology is the "interpreted" nature of pcode. A year or two ago >this wasn't that bad as Java has the same profile. A Virtual Machine was >acceptable with the argument that this is what allows multi-platform >development. But with the discontinuation of other platforms for PB and >Java now seen as "too slow" for the client-side and machine-code for PB as >yet another "instability" point for PB (in that using the option is frowned >upon even by the very company that provides the "so-called" capability) this >needs to be fixed. The horse is already out of the barn on this and >removing the capability would just be seen as "downsizing" the product by a >company that may possibly getting ready to discontinue supporting the >technology. > >-EGM > > >Roland M�hlberger <office@romu.com> wrote in message >news:t8L9a7R0BHA.272@forums.sybase.com... >> IMHO, .net based PowerBuilder will be the only way >> for Sybase to get going again. Too many jumped off >> for Java, marketing for PB was just too weak, (esp. >> here in Europe, nobody knows PB - well, a few do :), >> But if Sybase can do the trick to integrate the >> Datawindow as a 'managed class' and create MSIL >> instead of pcode (to mention the most important >> tasks), and then, with the help of good marketing >> (lots of threads about this going on here) making >> it well known - PB will be alive. >> >> my 2 cents (EURO of course) >> >> -- >> Roland Muhlberger -- ROMU Software >> easy PB pasting -- SmartPaste at http://www.romu.com/smartpaste >> >> "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag >> news:3c8e238d.7608760@199.93.177.77... >> > That subject line should get your attention. <g> >> > >> > I'm very pleased with the participation in this group. We've obviously >> > provided a well for a very thirsty group of developers! >> > >> > As you may or may not know, PB 9 is about to go into Beta and the >> > feature set has pretty much been frozen. I know a lot of these >> > requests are for very useful features and hopefully many will some day >> > be incorporated into PB. I don't know what can be done for PB 9 at >> > this point. Just don't want to falsely get people's hopes up. >> > >> > What I would like to do, is raise the discussion to a higher level of >> > abstraction. Instead of specifics (please feel free to continue to >> > post those too) I would like to get a feel for where you, as a PB >> > developer would like to see PowerBuilder go in the future. >> > >> > Do you want it to generate Java? Do you want it to compile to the MSIL >> > layer for .NET? Do you think it should focus more on features for >> > client server applications? Do you think it should incorporate more >> > features to make web development easier? Is it important to you that >> > PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume them) or does that >> > not interest you in the least? (These are just some ideas, I'd like to >> > hear others.) >> > >> > What do you think Sybase needs to do with PowerBuilder to make it >> > thrive and regain some of the glory it had a few years ago? >> > >> > I've read some of your messages about it being too late and I >> > understand the bitterness you may feel. Unfortunately I don't have a >> > time machine so I can't go back a few years and change Sybase's past >> > strategy with regard to PowerBuilder. We do have an opportunity now to >> > influence the direction that PB goes in and I'm asking for your ideas >> > to start that change now. >> > >> > Regards, >> > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] >> > >> >> > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Hi Dave, Iam glad sybase has taken note of PB's importance in the client server market. No doubt that PB is still thriving because of strong developer community embracing it. But from sybase part there is a lot more to do. these are my humble sugggestions: 1. need to have a better marketing strategy of promoting powerbuilder. 1a. the web site now is very confusing . there are lot of products. and lot of repackaging the studio which makes very confusing. it should be simple for layman as well as decision makers. one exmaple now i faced with decision to purchase powerbuilde studio and easerver studio. there are some common stuiff liek Jaguar which is in both. (or rather that is the impression i got) 2. i know PB 8 is going towards the web. being a hardcore pb devloper right from version 3.0, there is no guide for powerbuilder to the web using easerver. nor easerver tells us about any how to method. 3. bring out lot of books on pb 8 ,pb to web , using easerver etc. MS is very developer friendly in that they come out with lot of books even in the beta stage. this is how they have a grip on the market share. imagine .NEt which was a concept just 2 years back. now there are more 50,000 strong developer network who are working on .net stuff.!!!!. i have actually seen my collegues implement a application using .net strategy. why can't powerbuilder do that?. since PB has been more than 10 years old. there are lot of pb shops wanting to move to web and do not want to lose their existing investment on PB. even if you could tap to this loyal pb shops, Pb would have made money at the end of the day.!!! support for these products should be improved. the sybase customer service which was great some 6 years back has terribly gone down. - marunach@hotmail.com
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Thank you for taking the time to outline your concerns. You have made some very good points and I would like to address some of them to let you know what Sybase is doing and plans to do. >1. need to have a better marketing strategy of promoting powerbuilder. Sybase now has a dedicated resource responsible solely for marketing PowerBuilder. A lot of progress has been made in this area but a lot more work still needs to be done. >1a. the web site now is very confusing . there are lot of products. and lot >of repackaging the studio which makes very confusing. it should be simple >for layman as well as decision makers. >one exmaple now i faced with decision to purchase powerbuilde studio and >easerver studio. there are some common stuiff liek Jaguar which is in both. >(or rather that is the impression i got) We recognize that the web site is confusing and incomplete particularly in the area of PowerBuilder. We are currently in the process of redeveloping an area of the web site devoted exclusively to PowerBuilder. I welcome peoples' input into how they would like to see the site organized. >2. i know PB 8 is going towards the web. being a hardcore pb devloper right >from version 3.0, there is no guide for powerbuilder to the web using >easerver. nor easerver tells us about any how to method. That is another effort we are working on. Currently there are a number of documents that cover this area, but they don't cover every area and sometimes appear to have conflicting approaches. >3. bring out lot of books on pb 8 ,pb to web , using easerver etc. MS is >very developer friendly in that they come out with lot of books even in the >beta stage. this is how they have a grip on the market share. > >imagine .NEt which was a concept just 2 years back. now there are more >50,000 strong developer network who are working on .net stuff.!!!!. i have >actually seen my collegues implement a application using .net strategy. > >why can't powerbuilder do that?. since PB has been more than 10 years old. >there are lot of pb shops wanting to move to web and do not want to lose >their existing investment on PB. even if you could tap to this loyal pb >shops, Pb would have made money at the end of the day.!!! I don't know that there will be any books for PB 8 at this point, however TeamSybase is currently developing plans to publish TWO PB 9 books! One on Advanced Client Server Development and the other on Distributed Application Development. These books should be ready by the time PB 9 is GA later this year. >support for these products should be improved. the sybase customer service >which was great some 6 years back has terribly gone down. Would you elaborate on this? In what ways do you think support has declined? I'll make sure the support organization hears about your concerns. Regards, Dave Fish [TeamSybase]
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
> We recognize that the web site is confusing and incomplete > particularly in the area of PowerBuilder. We are currently in the > process of redeveloping an area of the web site devoted exclusively to > PowerBuilder. I welcome peoples' input into how they would like to see > the site organized. How about a genuinely consolidated and cross-referenced documentation set for Powerbuilder components in EAServer, both on the web and in the install. The EAServer documentation (for 3.6.1 at least) ignores PB and the PB documentation (7.0.3) doesn't include or reference things like the Jaguar Interface Repository. As a result, if you are trying to talk to the Jaguar container from a PB component to, for instance, start a thread or find the current user, you waste a lot of time jumping between PB and Jaguar documentation as you try to find out whether the functionality has been encapsulated in a PB system object and how to access it otherwise. David Tillotson Pickles Auctions david.tillotson@pickles.com.au
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I should prefix my remarks by saying that I am impressed and grateful for the amount of support I have received through these newsgroups. I don't know whether there is much point in letting the support organisation know about the decline in support. The folk in Sybase providing technical support already know they are a declining resource! In the Asia/Pacific, Sybase is pulling out apparently. It has been frustrating in the extreme to watch the decline in Sybase in Asia/Pacific in the last five years or so. Especially as I am a fan of its products. They have substantially reduced their technical staff on the ground and do not have any focus on "expert sales" of PB or ASE. There appears to be some focus on ASA/ianywhere but this is marketing related only. They shifted their help desk from Australia to Singapore a few years ago. This meant that as a DBA wanting support in an English speaking country, you only had access to people who spoke English as a second language and meant frustrating confusion when support staff could not understand accents or colloquialisms. I believe that for Australian customers some help desk functions have been returned, but it indicated that Sybase did not like its customers. Brett Weaver > >support for these products should be improved. the sybase customer service > >which was great some 6 years back has terribly gone down. > > Would you elaborate on this? In what ways do you think support has > declined? I'll make sure the support organization hears about your > concerns. > > Regards, > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I'd like to see both things happen. It would be great to see myself be able to deploy a component written in PB to Weblogic/Websphere/EAServer...all the J2EE App Servers. But it sort of half way does that anyways. It would be over the top if Sybase could somehow interface PB with .Net. To be able to code against the CLR and do all the things that VB.Net does. Better yet, to be able to create apps against the CLR and use the Datawindows within that farmework. I think .Net is the current buzz..since it's the new kid on the block. It would be exciting to see myself as a PB developer not feel left out from the rest of the world. "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message news:3c8e238d.7608760@199.93.177.77... > That subject line should get your attention. <g> > > I'm very pleased with the participation in this group. We've obviously > provided a well for a very thirsty group of developers! > > As you may or may not know, PB 9 is about to go into Beta and the > feature set has pretty much been frozen. I know a lot of these > requests are for very useful features and hopefully many will some day > be incorporated into PB. I don't know what can be done for PB 9 at > this point. Just don't want to falsely get people's hopes up. > > What I would like to do, is raise the discussion to a higher level of > abstraction. Instead of specifics (please feel free to continue to > post those too) I would like to get a feel for where you, as a PB > developer would like to see PowerBuilder go in the future. > > Do you want it to generate Java? Do you want it to compile to the MSIL > layer for .NET? Do you think it should focus more on features for > client server applications? Do you think it should incorporate more > features to make web development easier? Is it important to you that > PowerBuilder can generate web services (or consume them) or does that > not interest you in the least? (These are just some ideas, I'd like to > hear others.) > > What do you think Sybase needs to do with PowerBuilder to make it > thrive and regain some of the glory it had a few years ago? > > I've read some of your messages about it being too late and I > understand the bitterness you may feel. Unfortunately I don't have a > time machine so I can't go back a few years and change Sybase's past > strategy with regard to PowerBuilder. We do have an opportunity now to > influence the direction that PB goes in and I'm asking for your ideas > to start that change now. > > Regards, > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Hi all, I was wondering if Sybase could come with a documentation as Microsoft has done for all it's products in MSDN. That was we can have product based documentation with syntax helps, examples and usage description for every function and object in PB and other Sybase products. Thanks, Biju "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message news:3c9e15cf.92512375@199.93.177.77... Thank you for taking the time to outline your concerns. You have made some very good points and I would like to address some of them to let you know what Sybase is doing and plans to do. >1. need to have a better marketing strategy of promoting powerbuilder. Sybase now has a dedicated resource responsible solely for marketing PowerBuilder. A lot of progress has been made in this area but a lot more work still needs to be done. >1a. the web site now is very confusing . there are lot of products. and lot >of repackaging the studio which makes very confusing. it should be simple >for layman as well as decision makers. >one exmaple now i faced with decision to purchase powerbuilde studio and >easerver studio. there are some common stuiff liek Jaguar which is in both. >(or rather that is the impression i got) We recognize that the web site is confusing and incomplete particularly in the area of PowerBuilder. We are currently in the process of redeveloping an area of the web site devoted exclusively to PowerBuilder. I welcome peoples' input into how they would like to see the site organized. >2. i know PB 8 is going towards the web. being a hardcore pb devloper right >from version 3.0, there is no guide for powerbuilder to the web using >easerver. nor easerver tells us about any how to method. That is another effort we are working on. Currently there are a number of documents that cover this area, but they don't cover every area and sometimes appear to have conflicting approaches. >3. bring out lot of books on pb 8 ,pb to web , using easerver etc. MS is >very developer friendly in that they come out with lot of books even in the >beta stage. this is how they have a grip on the market share. > >imagine .NEt which was a concept just 2 years back. now there are more >50,000 strong developer network who are working on .net stuff.!!!!. i have >actually seen my collegues implement a application using .net strategy. > >why can't powerbuilder do that?. since PB has been more than 10 years old. >there are lot of pb shops wanting to move to web and do not want to lose >their existing investment on PB. even if you could tap to this loyal pb >shops, Pb would have made money at the end of the day.!!! I don't know that there will be any books for PB 8 at this point, however TeamSybase is currently developing plans to publish TWO PB 9 books! One on Advanced Client Server Development and the other on Distributed Application Development. These books should be ready by the time PB 9 is GA later this year. >support for these products should be improved. the sybase customer service >which was great some 6 years back has terribly gone down. Would you elaborate on this? In what ways do you think support has declined? I'll make sure the support organization hears about your concerns. Regards, Dave Fish [TeamSybase]
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
http://sybooks.sybase.com http://sdn.sybase.com -- <hopethishelps/> Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase] Sybase Developer Network -- http://sdn.sybase.com "Biju Nair" <bijurk@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:F5zJ5WcaCHA.313@forums.sybase.com... > Hi all, > > I was wondering if Sybase could come with a documentation as Microsoft has done for all it's products in MSDN. > That was we can have product based documentation with syntax helps, examples and usage description for every function and object in > PB and other Sybase products. > > Thanks, > Biju > "Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@sybase.com> wrote in message news:3c9e15cf.92512375@199.93.177.77... > Thank you for taking the time to outline your concerns. You have made > some very good points and I would like to address some of them to let > you know what Sybase is doing and plans to do. > > >1. need to have a better marketing strategy of promoting powerbuilder. > > Sybase now has a dedicated resource responsible solely for marketing > PowerBuilder. A lot of progress has been made in this area but a lot > more work still needs to be done. > > >1a. the web site now is very confusing . there are lot of products. and lot > >of repackaging the studio which makes very confusing. it should be simple > >for layman as well as decision makers. > >one exmaple now i faced with decision to purchase powerbuilde studio and > >easerver studio. there are some common stuiff liek Jaguar which is in both. > >(or rather that is the impression i got) > > We recognize that the web site is confusing and incomplete > particularly in the area of PowerBuilder. We are currently in the > process of redeveloping an area of the web site devoted exclusively to > PowerBuilder. I welcome peoples' input into how they would like to see > the site organized. > > >2. i know PB 8 is going towards the web. being a hardcore pb devloper right > >from version 3.0, there is no guide for powerbuilder to the web using > >easerver. nor easerver tells us about any how to method. > > That is another effort we are working on. Currently there are a number > of documents that cover this area, but they don't cover every area and > sometimes appear to have conflicting approaches. > > >3. bring out lot of books on pb 8 ,pb to web , using easerver etc. MS is > >very developer friendly in that they come out with lot of books even in the > >beta stage. this is how they have a grip on the market share. > > > >imagine .NEt which was a concept just 2 years back. now there are more > >50,000 strong developer network who are working on .net stuff.!!!!. i have > >actually seen my collegues implement a application using .net strategy. > > > >why can't powerbuilder do that?. since PB has been more than 10 years old. > >there are lot of pb shops wanting to move to web and do not want to lose > >their existing investment on PB. even if you could tap to this loyal pb > >shops, Pb would have made money at the end of the day.!!! > > I don't know that there will be any books for PB 8 at this point, > however TeamSybase is currently developing plans to publish TWO PB 9 > books! One on Advanced Client Server Development and the other on > Distributed Application Development. These books should be ready by > the time PB 9 is GA later this year. > > >support for these products should be improved. the sybase customer service > >which was great some 6 years back has terribly gone down. > > Would you elaborate on this? In what ways do you think support has > declined? I'll make sure the support organization hears about your > concerns. > > Regards, > Dave Fish [TeamSybase] > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I think PB Online Books is more than enough.
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
I agree - what I'd rather see though are more examples of powerbuilder interfacing to other things, like Robohelp -- Evita R. Chapa Senior Systems Analyst II Command Technologies, Inc. "Vasu" <kr_vasudev@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:2LgdFDsaCHA.334@forums.sybase.com... > I think PB Online Books is more than enough. > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Evita; Better yet, I would like to see RoboHelp, ComponetOne, etc included (bundled) with PB Enterprise! Regards ... Chris "E Chapa" <echapa@commtechinc.com> wrote in message news:xyW4TVtaCHA.313@forums.sybase.com... > I agree - what I'd rather see though are more examples of powerbuilder > interfacing to other things, like Robohelp > > > -- > Evita R. Chapa > Senior Systems Analyst II > Command Technologies, Inc. > > "Vasu" <kr_vasudev@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:2LgdFDsaCHA.334@forums.sybase.com... > > I think PB Online Books is more than enough. > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
That would drive up the price of PB enterprise for everyone, regardless of whether they use those tools. How would this be more beneficial than just buying RoboHelp if you need it and installing it? Or were you hoping to get it for no additional charge? That would be a great business model for you, but not so smart for Sybase. "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@ajja.com> wrote in message news:16dHditaCHA.197@forums.sybase.com... > Evita; > > Better yet, I would like to see RoboHelp, ComponetOne, etc included > (bundled) with PB Enterprise! > > Regards ... Chris > > "E Chapa" <echapa@commtechinc.com> wrote in message > news:xyW4TVtaCHA.313@forums.sybase.com... > > I agree - what I'd rather see though are more examples of powerbuilder > > interfacing to other things, like Robohelp > > > > > > -- > > Evita R. Chapa > > Senior Systems Analyst II > > Command Technologies, Inc. > > > > "Vasu" <kr_vasudev@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > news:2LgdFDsaCHA.334@forums.sybase.com... > > > I think PB Online Books is more than enough. > > > > > > > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
Dan; My suggestion to Sybase the other day was to create a PB Studio (forget EAStudio) and bundle in what PB developers really need (Installer, Help Compiler, "C" compiler [remember "C" User objects - they still own Waterloo Business Systems!], Source Code Manager, etc). I remember Powesoft's motto - "One stop shopping for your Application Development Needs". Ah the good old days. My $0.02 worth! Regards .. Chris "Daniel Coppersmith" <daniel@N.0.S.P.A.M_infrontsoftware.com> wrote in message news:9oWDuRuaCHA.313@forums.sybase.com... > That would drive up the price of PB enterprise for everyone, regardless of > whether they use those tools. How would this be more beneficial than just > buying RoboHelp if you need it and installing it? > > Or were you hoping to get it for no additional charge? That would be a > great business model for you, but not so smart for Sybase. > > > "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@ajja.com> wrote in message > news:16dHditaCHA.197@forums.sybase.com... > > Evita; > > > > Better yet, I would like to see RoboHelp, ComponetOne, etc included > > (bundled) with PB Enterprise! > > > > Regards ... Chris > > > > "E Chapa" <echapa@commtechinc.com> wrote in message > > news:xyW4TVtaCHA.313@forums.sybase.com... > > > I agree - what I'd rather see though are more examples of powerbuilder > > > interfacing to other things, like Robohelp > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Evita R. Chapa > > > Senior Systems Analyst II > > > Command Technologies, Inc. > > > > > > "Vasu" <kr_vasudev@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > news:2LgdFDsaCHA.334@forums.sybase.com... > > > > I think PB Online Books is more than enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |
My comment was regarding seeing these in like their example apps or their website. I think it makes PB look more attrractive - "hey, look what you can use with PB"...I wouldn't need Robohelp included with PB unless I needed it.. -- Evita R. Chapa Senior Systems Analyst II Command Technologies, Inc. "E Chapa" <echapa@commtechinc.com> wrote in message news:xyW4TVtaCHA.313@forums.sybase.com... > I agree - what I'd rather see though are more examples of powerbuilder > interfacing to other things, like Robohelp > > > -- > Evita R. Chapa > Senior Systems Analyst II > Command Technologies, Inc. > > "Vasu" <kr_vasudev@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:2LgdFDsaCHA.334@forums.sybase.com... > > I think PB Online Books is more than enough. > > > > > >
![]() |
0 |
![]() |