i am in Powerbuilder for past 4 Years.....currently i am in
india.

 But my projects are in my last 4 years almost
 maintenance & migration to advanced techniques...almost
 zero development and  the sad news is ,powerbuilder
developers  are very less when compared to advance
techniques...

u know the PB versions are also coming yearly once &
introducing new concepts also almost not useful(i discussed
with lot of  PB developers almost they are not using the
advance
techniques)

 so everybody is going slowly out of PB technology...
 In india last few years Pb usage is reduced to
 60-65%..servay says.

 The sad thing is Sybase is also not giving that much
 important  as MS is giving for VB(Vb supports very easily
for
 .Net,com,MTS,ASP,JSP Etc)...

 But in PB,now only started giving support to
..Net(Initially for Datawindow only) ....

 Finally ,wht is the future for PB developers...?
 I guess 90% of PB life is  going on only due to
 maintenance in india......so PB developers are slowly
 migrating to advance technologies.......

 If Sybase is not giving the proper & fixed solution then
 Slowly PB will be out of market..now almost 60% out of
market..

 This mail is not voice of mine only....lot of Pb
 developers voice...

 Future ?

Hi,

I do not really want to start or support the yearly 'PowerBuilder's future'
discussion (Sybase works on PB11, PocketBuilder 2.0 was released some days ago)
and anyway your question is more related to PB developers or consultants so
maybe I will try to answer this question:

It's eay to use 'advanced technologies' in PB:

*) EAServer integration is perfect - components and clients can be built from
within PB
*) PBNI is definetifly an advanced feature - C++ and Java can talk to PB and
vice versa.
*) Feel free to write JSP pages from within PB. One of the (easier) ways to get
known to distr. computing.

From my experience I have to say that a *GOOD* PowerBuilder consultant looks
left and right an not only at what the one knows. I say if one says 'Can not be
done in PB' the one does not know what these tool is able to do if the right
person uses it. 

Look, I work here on a PB application which was initially written in 1995. Since
I work on it we have:

*) Reports which are generated at runtime (dynamic DWs)
*) user defined filtering
*) Asynchronous calls to the DB (SharedObjects)
*) Dynamic menus
*) Auto update for our application via the DB (including the PB runtime)
*) A PocketBuilder client using Mobilink
and a lot more....

I am sure that there is also potential for the apps you are talking about.

Maintenance does not only mean to add one or two new reports and change a window
to add a new field, it would also mean to support the new techniques or bring in
features that were initially missing.

And I remember the days when I had to do presales and and I was asked the
question: Why use PB and not VB as VB will exist for years and PB's future is
unknown.......

Well, we know the rest of the story........

And who hinders someone who offers a (maintenance) job to take a certified PB
developer? I remember the day very good when I thought I am such a cool PB
developer and no one can tell me anything new -> Pang, I did not pass the
certification. Now, after 8 years of PB (and not only PB also J2EE) I know that
I still can learn something new about PB.....


On 6 Dec 2004 00:43:35 -0800,
 in sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
 <KILLER> wrote: 
> i am in Powerbuilder for past 4 Years.....currently i am in
>india.
>
> But my projects are in my last 4 years almost
> maintenance & migration to advanced techniques...almost
> zero development and  the sad news is ,powerbuilder
>developers  are very less when compared to advance
>techniques...
>
>u know the PB versions are also coming yearly once &
>introducing new concepts also almost not useful(i discussed
>with lot of  PB developers almost they are not using the
>advance
>techniques)
>
> so everybody is going slowly out of PB technology...
> In india last few years Pb usage is reduced to
> 60-65%..servay says.
>
> The sad thing is Sybase is also not giving that much
> important  as MS is giving for VB(Vb supports very easily
>for
> .Net,com,MTS,ASP,JSP Etc)...
>
> But in PB,now only started giving support to
>..Net(Initially for Datawindow only) ....
>
> Finally ,wht is the future for PB developers...?
> I guess 90% of PB life is  going on only due to
> maintenance in india......so PB developers are slowly
> migrating to advance technologies.......
>
> If Sybase is not giving the proper & fixed solution then
> Slowly PB will be out of market..now almost 60% out of
>market..
>
> This mail is not voice of mine only....lot of Pb
> developers voice...
>
> Future ?

Berndt

Same question, same answer. I have a simpler question: which
PB I can use to FULLY convert a PB 6.5 client server project
to .NET, with better and cheaper deployment _for_customers_
than in VB?

Issue of .NET conversion comes back like a boomerang and
hits me from time to time recently. So which PB version I
need to buy to be able to efficiently compete with my VB
counterparts in .NET?

Since every application is unique we can't issue a blanket statement
that any application can be FULLY converted to .NET. 

PowerBuilder 11 will have the ability to compile an application to a
.NET WinForm or a .NET Webform application. An application should
convert 100% to a Winform application. Webform is trickier because of
unsupported features, scalability, etc. 

PowerBuilder 11 will be available in late 2005.

Regards,
Dave Fish
Sybase

TeamSybase blogs: http://www.teamsybase.net/blogs

DataWindow.NET code examples available on CodeXchange:
http://datawindownet.codexchange.sybase.com

On 7 Dec 2004 03:18:48 -0800, azaleski@anzasoft.pl wrote:

>
>Same question, same answer. I have a simpler question: which
>PB I can use to FULLY convert a PB 6.5 client server project
>to .NET, with better and cheaper deployment _for_customers_
>than in VB?
>
>Issue of .NET conversion comes back like a boomerang and
>hits me from time to time recently. So which PB version I
>need to buy to be able to efficiently compete with my VB
>counterparts in .NET?

Nobody needs a blanket statement. PowerBuilder 11 can be the
turning point then. I keep my fingers crossed PB 11 will be
as good in .NET as PB 6.5 is in client server. People will
stop whining.

> Since every application is unique we can't issue a blanket
> statement that any application can be FULLY converted to
> .NET.
>
> PowerBuilder 11 will have the ability to compile an
> application to a .NET WinForm or a .NET Webform
> application. An application should convert 100% to a
> Winform application. Webform is trickier because of
> unsupported features, scalability, etc.
>
> PowerBuilder 11 will be available in late 2005.
>
> Regards,
> Dave Fish
> Sybase
>
> TeamSybase blogs: http://www.teamsybase.net/blogs
>
> DataWindow.NET code examples available on CodeXchange:
> http://datawindownet.codexchange.sybase.com
>
> On 7 Dec 2004 03:18:48 -0800, azaleski@anzasoft.pl wrote:
>
> >
> >Same question, same answer. I have a simpler question:
> which >PB I can use to FULLY convert a PB 6.5 client
> server project >to .NET, with better and cheaper
> deployment _for_customers_ >than in VB?
> >
> >Issue of .NET conversion comes back like a boomerang and
> >hits me from time to time recently. So which PB version I
> >need to buy to be able to efficiently compete with my VB
> >counterparts in .NET?
>

Optimist!! <BEG>

On 7 Dec 2004 10:40:17 -0800, azaleski@anzasoft.pl wrote:

>People will
>stop whining.

*********************************
Click once a day to give 100,000 books to children in need by the holidays
http://www.theliteracysite.com
*********************************

Sequel's Sandbox: http://www.techno-kitten.com
Home of PBL Peeper, a free PowerBuilder Developer's Toolkit. 
Version 2.2.06 now available at the Sandbox
See the PB Troubleshooting Guide at the Sandbox
^ ^
o o
=*=

I believe what is happening is, those of us who have been with PowerBuilder
for many many years, will continue to believe that there will soon come a
day when people will start moving towards PowerBuilder.
There is also another reason for the above thought, that about 75% of them
[I mean professionals with more than 5-6-7-8 years of experience] won't be
able to change their profession because companies are looking for a very
diversed qualification [not only PB  but, .NET or JAVA or something else,
which not many of the PB professionals have].

Very soon it will become like a dead end.  Either leave the IT or live with
PB [or become a Manager].

Not a very optimistic opinion but this is just a thought

"Terry Voth" <sequel@techno-kitten.com> wrote in message
news:m44cr0tt5ql77m2efbdiqk1fi9m98tda5f@4ax.com...
> Optimist!! <BEG>
>
> On 7 Dec 2004 10:40:17 -0800, azaleski@anzasoft.pl wrote:
>
> >People will
> >stop whining.
>
> *********************************
> Click once a day to give 100,000 books to children in need by the holidays
> http://www.theliteracysite.com
> *********************************
>
> Sequel's Sandbox: http://www.techno-kitten.com
> Home of PBL Peeper, a free PowerBuilder Developer's Toolkit.
> Version 2.2.06 now available at the Sandbox
> See the PB Troubleshooting Guide at the Sandbox
> ^ ^
> o o
> =*=

I think it's about creating a buzz in the marketplace somehow.

Has Sybase considered "giving away" a few installs to get showcases out
there?  Find some high profile customer who is willing to be a show pony in
exchange for having Sybase come in and write them a slick PB / EAS /
Pocketbuilder app....  make it look cool, then parade it around.  It would
be an investment, but it could pay off for marketing folks who can say,
"come see what our tools did for this big company!"

Right now, there's no buzz.  It's all .NOT.

My 2 cents adjusted for inflation.


"PB Dev" <sybase> wrote in message news:41b62965$1@forums-2-dub...
> I believe what is happening is, those of us who have been with
PowerBuilder
> for many many years, will continue to believe that there will soon come a
> day when people will start moving towards PowerBuilder.
> There is also another reason for the above thought, that about 75% of them
> [I mean professionals with more than 5-6-7-8 years of experience] won't be
> able to change their profession because companies are looking for a very
> diversed qualification [not only PB  but, .NET or JAVA or something else,
> which not many of the PB professionals have].
>
> Very soon it will become like a dead end.  Either leave the IT or live
with
> PB [or become a Manager].
>
> Not a very optimistic opinion but this is just a thought
>
> "Terry Voth" <sequel@techno-kitten.com> wrote in message
> news:m44cr0tt5ql77m2efbdiqk1fi9m98tda5f@4ax.com...
> > Optimist!! <BEG>
> >
> > On 7 Dec 2004 10:40:17 -0800, azaleski@anzasoft.pl wrote:
> >
> > >People will
> > >stop whining.
> >
> > *********************************
> > Click once a day to give 100,000 books to children in need by the
holidays
> > http://www.theliteracysite.com
> > *********************************
> >
> > Sequel's Sandbox: http://www.techno-kitten.com
> > Home of PBL Peeper, a free PowerBuilder Developer's Toolkit.
> > Version 2.2.06 now available at the Sandbox
> > See the PB Troubleshooting Guide at the Sandbox
> > ^ ^
> > o o
> > =*=
>
>

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Good idea Daniel.

PB is Back! buzz could work too... Sybase like most of us thinks PB was 
never "dead", but outside of PB-world, most of the ppl think it's dead. 
So how do you create a buzz for something that's dead? Tell them it's 
baaaack! :)

Just my 2 cents.

Rahul Jain

P.S: I would contribute towards a full page NYT ad for PB :).


Daniel Coppersmith wrote:
> I think it's about creating a buzz in the marketplace somehow.
> 
> Has Sybase considered "giving away" a few installs to get showcases out
> there?  Find some high profile customer who is willing to be a show pony in
> exchange for having Sybase come in and write them a slick PB / EAS /
> Pocketbuilder app....  make it look cool, then parade it around.  It would
> be an investment, but it could pay off for marketing folks who can say,
> "come see what our tools did for this big company!"
> 
> Right now, there's no buzz.  It's all .NOT.
> 
> My 2 cents adjusted for inflation.
> 
> 
> "PB Dev" <sybase> wrote in message news:41b62965$1@forums-2-dub...
> 
>>I believe what is happening is, those of us who have been with
> 
> PowerBuilder
> 
>>for many many years, will continue to believe that there will soon come a
>>day when people will start moving towards PowerBuilder.
>>There is also another reason for the above thought, that about 75% of them
>>[I mean professionals with more than 5-6-7-8 years of experience] won't be
>>able to change their profession because companies are looking for a very
>>diversed qualification [not only PB  but, .NET or JAVA or something else,
>>which not many of the PB professionals have].
>>
>>Very soon it will become like a dead end.  Either leave the IT or live
> 
> with
> 
>>PB [or become a Manager].
>>
>>Not a very optimistic opinion but this is just a thought
>>
>>"Terry Voth" <sequel@techno-kitten.com> wrote in message
>>news:m44cr0tt5ql77m2efbdiqk1fi9m98tda5f@4ax.com...
>>
>>>Optimist!! <BEG>
>>>
>>>On 7 Dec 2004 10:40:17 -0800, azaleski@anzasoft.pl wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>People will
>>>>stop whining.
>>>
>>>*********************************
>>>Click once a day to give 100,000 books to children in need by the
> 
> holidays
> 
>>>http://www.theliteracysite.com
>>>*********************************
>>>
>>>Sequel's Sandbox: http://www.techno-kitten.com
>>>Home of PBL Peeper, a free PowerBuilder Developer's Toolkit.
>>>Version 2.2.06 now available at the Sandbox
>>>See the PB Troubleshooting Guide at the Sandbox
>>>^ ^
>>>o o
>>>=*=
>>
>>
> 
> 


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--------------060009060308070707010500--

How will they be able to create the Buzz!!  do they have a product that is
working consistently?  I will have to think before I can answer to that
question.

For every small problems [and there are lots of], you are being told to
install a patch that was released on such and such date [and make sure you
use it only for a very specific problem otherwise that might break something
else].  How many of us are there in the developer community that believe PB
is a very stable product?  not many there too.  So how can Sybase create a
buzz when the developer community that it is supporting itself is not
convinced about the product.
   A good strategy would be to hire few developers and make the product more
stable so that the developers are not asked to check updates every sunday to
see if Sybase has fixed something that is not working in their setup.
Sybase's focus has been to incorporate new features in PowerBuilder leaving
behind all the issues to be later taken care by their weekly fixes.  This is
not the solution to the problem.   I have not seen a stable product since
6.5 was released.  Everyone knows about what happened when 7.0 was
introduced.  Some said 8.0 is more stable, then heard, 9.0 is more stable
than 8.0, same story continues with 10.0 release.  But still there are lots
of issues with every release.  Not many companies [I would guess about 70%]
are using all the new features in PB that Sybase is wasting all its
resources on.

   I would suggest, better strategy would be to create a very stable product
and then keep on adding features without compromising on the base product
[and believe me 70% of the applications are still client server, please
don't loose them SYBASE!!!!].

GIVE US A GOOD STABLE BASE PRODUCT FIRST!!!!.


"Rahul Jain" <rahul.jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
news:41b7275e$1@forums-2-dub...
> Good idea Daniel.
>
> PB is Back! buzz could work too... Sybase like most of us thinks PB was
> never "dead", but outside of PB-world, most of the ppl think it's dead.
> So how do you create a buzz for something that's dead? Tell them it's
> baaaack! :)
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> Rahul Jain
>
> P.S: I would contribute towards a full page NYT ad for PB :).
>
>
> Daniel Coppersmith wrote:
> > I think it's about creating a buzz in the marketplace somehow.
> >
> > Has Sybase considered "giving away" a few installs to get showcases out
> > there?  Find some high profile customer who is willing to be a show pony
in
> > exchange for having Sybase come in and write them a slick PB / EAS /
> > Pocketbuilder app....  make it look cool, then parade it around.  It
would
> > be an investment, but it could pay off for marketing folks who can say,
> > "come see what our tools did for this big company!"
> >
> > Right now, there's no buzz.  It's all .NOT.
> >
> > My 2 cents adjusted for inflation.
> >
> >
> > "PB Dev" <sybase> wrote in message news:41b62965$1@forums-2-dub...
> >
> >>I believe what is happening is, those of us who have been with
> >
> > PowerBuilder
> >
> >>for many many years, will continue to believe that there will soon come
a
> >>day when people will start moving towards PowerBuilder.
> >>There is also another reason for the above thought, that about 75% of
them
> >>[I mean professionals with more than 5-6-7-8 years of experience] won't
be
> >>able to change their profession because companies are looking for a very
> >>diversed qualification [not only PB  but, .NET or JAVA or something
else,
> >>which not many of the PB professionals have].
> >>
> >>Very soon it will become like a dead end.  Either leave the IT or live
> >
> > with
> >
> >>PB [or become a Manager].
> >>
> >>Not a very optimistic opinion but this is just a thought
> >>
> >>"Terry Voth" <sequel@techno-kitten.com> wrote in message
> >>news:m44cr0tt5ql77m2efbdiqk1fi9m98tda5f@4ax.com...
> >>
> >>>Optimist!! <BEG>
> >>>
> >>>On 7 Dec 2004 10:40:17 -0800, azaleski@anzasoft.pl wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>People will
> >>>>stop whining.
> >>>
> >>>*********************************
> >>>Click once a day to give 100,000 books to children in need by the
> >
> > holidays
> >
> >>>http://www.theliteracysite.com
> >>>*********************************
> >>>
> >>>Sequel's Sandbox: http://www.techno-kitten.com
> >>>Home of PBL Peeper, a free PowerBuilder Developer's Toolkit.
> >>>Version 2.2.06 now available at the Sandbox
> >>>See the PB Troubleshooting Guide at the Sandbox
> >>>^ ^
> >>>o o
> >>>=*=
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Speak for yourself Mr. PB Dev. I (and I believe most of the PB developer 
community) think PB is the best in it's class and relatively much more 
stable.

Rahul Jain



PB Dev wrote:
> How will they be able to create the Buzz!!  do they have a product that is
> working consistently?  I will have to think before I can answer to that
> question.
> 
> For every small problems [and there are lots of], you are being told to
> install a patch that was released on such and such date [and make sure you
> use it only for a very specific problem otherwise that might break something
> else].  How many of us are there in the developer community that believe PB
> is a very stable product?  not many there too.  So how can Sybase create a
> buzz when the developer community that it is supporting itself is not
> convinced about the product.
>    A good strategy would be to hire few developers and make the product more
> stable so that the developers are not asked to check updates every sunday to
> see if Sybase has fixed something that is not working in their setup.
> Sybase's focus has been to incorporate new features in PowerBuilder leaving
> behind all the issues to be later taken care by their weekly fixes.  This is
> not the solution to the problem.   I have not seen a stable product since
> 6.5 was released.  Everyone knows about what happened when 7.0 was
> introduced.  Some said 8.0 is more stable, then heard, 9.0 is more stable
> than 8.0, same story continues with 10.0 release.  But still there are lots
> of issues with every release.  Not many companies [I would guess about 70%]
> are using all the new features in PB that Sybase is wasting all its
> resources on.
> 
>    I would suggest, better strategy would be to create a very stable product
> and then keep on adding features without compromising on the base product
> [and believe me 70% of the applications are still client server, please
> don't loose them SYBASE!!!!].
> 
> GIVE US A GOOD STABLE BASE PRODUCT FIRST!!!!.
> 
> 
> "Rahul Jain" <rahul.jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
> news:41b7275e$1@forums-2-dub...
> 
>>Good idea Daniel.
>>
>>PB is Back! buzz could work too... Sybase like most of us thinks PB was
>>never "dead", but outside of PB-world, most of the ppl think it's dead.
>>So how do you create a buzz for something that's dead? Tell them it's
>>baaaack! :)
>>
>>Just my 2 cents.
>>
>>Rahul Jain
>>
>>P.S: I would contribute towards a full page NYT ad for PB :).
>>
>>
>>Daniel Coppersmith wrote:
>>
>>>I think it's about creating a buzz in the marketplace somehow.
>>>
>>>Has Sybase considered "giving away" a few installs to get showcases out
>>>there?  Find some high profile customer who is willing to be a show pony
> 
> in
> 
>>>exchange for having Sybase come in and write them a slick PB / EAS /
>>>Pocketbuilder app....  make it look cool, then parade it around.  It
> 
> would
> 
>>>be an investment, but it could pay off for marketing folks who can say,
>>>"come see what our tools did for this big company!"
>>>
>>>Right now, there's no buzz.  It's all .NOT.
>>>
>>>My 2 cents adjusted for inflation.
>>>
>>>
>>>"PB Dev" <sybase> wrote in message news:41b62965$1@forums-2-dub...
>>>
>>>
>>>>I believe what is happening is, those of us who have been with
>>>
>>>PowerBuilder
>>>
>>>
>>>>for many many years, will continue to believe that there will soon come
> 
> a
> 
>>>>day when people will start moving towards PowerBuilder.
>>>>There is also another reason for the above thought, that about 75% of
> 
> them
> 
>>>>[I mean professionals with more than 5-6-7-8 years of experience] won't
> 
> be
> 
>>>>able to change their profession because companies are looking for a very
>>>>diversed qualification [not only PB  but, .NET or JAVA or something
> 
> else,
> 
>>>>which not many of the PB professionals have].
>>>>
>>>>Very soon it will become like a dead end.  Either leave the IT or live
>>>
>>>with
>>>
>>>
>>>>PB [or become a Manager].
>>>>
>>>>Not a very optimistic opinion but this is just a thought
>>>>
>>>>"Terry Voth" <sequel@techno-kitten.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:m44cr0tt5ql77m2efbdiqk1fi9m98tda5f@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Optimist!! <BEG>
>>>>>
>>>>>On 7 Dec 2004 10:40:17 -0800, azaleski@anzasoft.pl wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>People will
>>>>>>stop whining.
>>>>>
>>>>>*********************************
>>>>>Click once a day to give 100,000 books to children in need by the
>>>
>>>holidays
>>>
>>>
>>>>>http://www.theliteracysite.com
>>>>>*********************************
>>>>>
>>>>>Sequel's Sandbox: http://www.techno-kitten.com
>>>>>Home of PBL Peeper, a free PowerBuilder Developer's Toolkit.
>>>>>Version 2.2.06 now available at the Sandbox
>>>>>See the PB Troubleshooting Guide at the Sandbox
>>>>>^ ^
>>>>>o o
>>>>>=*=
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
> 
> 


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--------------040901020104080302000205--

simple question:
   IF PB is Stable
        why do we have weekly updates?

"Rahul Jain" <rahul.jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
news:41b73c8a$1@forums-2-dub...
> Speak for yourself Mr. PB Dev. I (and I believe most of the PB developer
> community) think PB is the best in it's class and relatively much more
> stable.
>
> Rahul Jain
>
>
>
> PB Dev wrote:
> > How will they be able to create the Buzz!!  do they have a product that
is
> > working consistently?  I will have to think before I can answer to that
> > question.
> >
> > For every small problems [and there are lots of], you are being told to
> > install a patch that was released on such and such date [and make sure
you
> > use it only for a very specific problem otherwise that might break
something
> > else].  How many of us are there in the developer community that believe
PB
> > is a very stable product?  not many there too.  So how can Sybase create
a
> > buzz when the developer community that it is supporting itself is not
> > convinced about the product.
> >    A good strategy would be to hire few developers and make the product
more
> > stable so that the developers are not asked to check updates every
sunday to
> > see if Sybase has fixed something that is not working in their setup.
> > Sybase's focus has been to incorporate new features in PowerBuilder
leaving
> > behind all the issues to be later taken care by their weekly fixes.
This is
> > not the solution to the problem.   I have not seen a stable product
since
> > 6.5 was released.  Everyone knows about what happened when 7.0 was
> > introduced.  Some said 8.0 is more stable, then heard, 9.0 is more
stable
> > than 8.0, same story continues with 10.0 release.  But still there are
lots
> > of issues with every release.  Not many companies [I would guess about
70%]
> > are using all the new features in PB that Sybase is wasting all its
> > resources on.
> >
> >    I would suggest, better strategy would be to create a very stable
product
> > and then keep on adding features without compromising on the base
product
> > [and believe me 70% of the applications are still client server, please
> > don't loose them SYBASE!!!!].
> >
> > GIVE US A GOOD STABLE BASE PRODUCT FIRST!!!!.
> >
> >
> > "Rahul Jain" <rahul.jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
> > news:41b7275e$1@forums-2-dub...
> >
> >>Good idea Daniel.
> >>
> >>PB is Back! buzz could work too... Sybase like most of us thinks PB was
> >>never "dead", but outside of PB-world, most of the ppl think it's dead.
> >>So how do you create a buzz for something that's dead? Tell them it's
> >>baaaack! :)
> >>
> >>Just my 2 cents.
> >>
> >>Rahul Jain
> >>
> >>P.S: I would contribute towards a full page NYT ad for PB :).
> >>
> >>
> >>Daniel Coppersmith wrote:
> >>
> >>>I think it's about creating a buzz in the marketplace somehow.
> >>>
> >>>Has Sybase considered "giving away" a few installs to get showcases out
> >>>there?  Find some high profile customer who is willing to be a show
pony
> >
> > in
> >
> >>>exchange for having Sybase come in and write them a slick PB / EAS /
> >>>Pocketbuilder app....  make it look cool, then parade it around.  It
> >
> > would
> >
> >>>be an investment, but it could pay off for marketing folks who can say,
> >>>"come see what our tools did for this big company!"
> >>>
> >>>Right now, there's no buzz.  It's all .NOT.
> >>>
> >>>My 2 cents adjusted for inflation.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>"PB Dev" <sybase> wrote in message news:41b62965$1@forums-2-dub...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I believe what is happening is, those of us who have been with
> >>>
> >>>PowerBuilder
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>for many many years, will continue to believe that there will soon
come
> >
> > a
> >
> >>>>day when people will start moving towards PowerBuilder.
> >>>>There is also another reason for the above thought, that about 75% of
> >
> > them
> >
> >>>>[I mean professionals with more than 5-6-7-8 years of experience]
won't
> >
> > be
> >
> >>>>able to change their profession because companies are looking for a
very
> >>>>diversed qualification [not only PB  but, .NET or JAVA or something
> >
> > else,
> >
> >>>>which not many of the PB professionals have].
> >>>>
> >>>>Very soon it will become like a dead end.  Either leave the IT or live
> >>>
> >>>with
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>PB [or become a Manager].
> >>>>
> >>>>Not a very optimistic opinion but this is just a thought
> >>>>
> >>>>"Terry Voth" <sequel@techno-kitten.com> wrote in message
> >>>>news:m44cr0tt5ql77m2efbdiqk1fi9m98tda5f@4ax.com...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Optimist!! <BEG>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>On 7 Dec 2004 10:40:17 -0800, azaleski@anzasoft.pl wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>People will
> >>>>>>stop whining.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>*********************************
> >>>>>Click once a day to give 100,000 books to children in need by the
> >>>
> >>>holidays
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>http://www.theliteracysite.com
> >>>>>*********************************
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Sequel's Sandbox: http://www.techno-kitten.com
> >>>>>Home of PBL Peeper, a free PowerBuilder Developer's Toolkit.
> >>>>>Version 2.2.06 now available at the Sandbox
> >>>>>See the PB Troubleshooting Guide at the Sandbox
> >>>>>^ ^
> >>>>>o o
> >>>>>=*=
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

If a software vendor waited for a perfect release of their products before
marketing it, there would be no computers out there because there would be
nothing to run on them.

My wife uses .NOT, crashes on her daily.

I run Windows 2000, if I turn on m my HP printer while the PC is running, I
blue screen.

Oracles JDBC drivers leave a lot to the imagination when it comes to
consistency.

I run apps written in Java by an outside vendor that run on one machine, but
not another.

A client uses software from CA for call tracking, you should see the steps
needed to install it (I kid you not, 8 pages, 3 reboots and several hangs).

Sure, PBs got some problems.  Yes, I crash every now and again.  When I
develop my non visual stuff (for EAS), I almost NEVER crash.  When I develop
windows stuff, I do crash.  I save often, it's an inconvenience, but I
accept it because the speed to market gains from PB are not negated by it.
I love a PB that never crashes, but I am willing to take what I have in
exchange for new features.

Get more buzz, get more market share and the developers will follow.


"PB Dev" <sybase> wrote in message news:41b72e40$1@forums-2-dub...
> How will they be able to create the Buzz!!  do they have a product that is
> working consistently?  I will have to think before I can answer to that
> question.
>
> For every small problems [and there are lots of], you are being told to
> install a patch that was released on such and such date [and make sure you
> use it only for a very specific problem otherwise that might break
something
> else].  How many of us are there in the developer community that believe
PB
> is a very stable product?  not many there too.  So how can Sybase create a
> buzz when the developer community that it is supporting itself is not
> convinced about the product.
>    A good strategy would be to hire few developers and make the product
more
> stable so that the developers are not asked to check updates every sunday
to
> see if Sybase has fixed something that is not working in their setup.
> Sybase's focus has been to incorporate new features in PowerBuilder
leaving
> behind all the issues to be later taken care by their weekly fixes.  This
is
> not the solution to the problem.   I have not seen a stable product since
> 6.5 was released.  Everyone knows about what happened when 7.0 was
> introduced.  Some said 8.0 is more stable, then heard, 9.0 is more stable
> than 8.0, same story continues with 10.0 release.  But still there are
lots
> of issues with every release.  Not many companies [I would guess about
70%]
> are using all the new features in PB that Sybase is wasting all its
> resources on.
>
>    I would suggest, better strategy would be to create a very stable
product
> and then keep on adding features without compromising on the base product
> [and believe me 70% of the applications are still client server, please
> don't loose them SYBASE!!!!].
>
> GIVE US A GOOD STABLE BASE PRODUCT FIRST!!!!.
>
>
> "Rahul Jain" <rahul.jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
> news:41b7275e$1@forums-2-dub...
> > Good idea Daniel.
> >
> > PB is Back! buzz could work too... Sybase like most of us thinks PB was
> > never "dead", but outside of PB-world, most of the ppl think it's dead.
> > So how do you create a buzz for something that's dead? Tell them it's
> > baaaack! :)
> >
> > Just my 2 cents.
> >
> > Rahul Jain
> >
> > P.S: I would contribute towards a full page NYT ad for PB :).
> >
> >
> > Daniel Coppersmith wrote:
> > > I think it's about creating a buzz in the marketplace somehow.
> > >
> > > Has Sybase considered "giving away" a few installs to get showcases
out
> > > there?  Find some high profile customer who is willing to be a show
pony
> in
> > > exchange for having Sybase come in and write them a slick PB / EAS /
> > > Pocketbuilder app....  make it look cool, then parade it around.  It
> would
> > > be an investment, but it could pay off for marketing folks who can
say,
> > > "come see what our tools did for this big company!"
> > >
> > > Right now, there's no buzz.  It's all .NOT.
> > >
> > > My 2 cents adjusted for inflation.
> > >
> > >
> > > "PB Dev" <sybase> wrote in message news:41b62965$1@forums-2-dub...
> > >
> > >>I believe what is happening is, those of us who have been with
> > >
> > > PowerBuilder
> > >
> > >>for many many years, will continue to believe that there will soon
come
> a
> > >>day when people will start moving towards PowerBuilder.
> > >>There is also another reason for the above thought, that about 75% of
> them
> > >>[I mean professionals with more than 5-6-7-8 years of experience]
won't
> be
> > >>able to change their profession because companies are looking for a
very
> > >>diversed qualification [not only PB  but, .NET or JAVA or something
> else,
> > >>which not many of the PB professionals have].
> > >>
> > >>Very soon it will become like a dead end.  Either leave the IT or live
> > >
> > > with
> > >
> > >>PB [or become a Manager].
> > >>
> > >>Not a very optimistic opinion but this is just a thought
> > >>
> > >>"Terry Voth" <sequel@techno-kitten.com> wrote in message
> > >>news:m44cr0tt5ql77m2efbdiqk1fi9m98tda5f@4ax.com...
> > >>
> > >>>Optimist!! <BEG>
> > >>>
> > >>>On 7 Dec 2004 10:40:17 -0800, azaleski@anzasoft.pl wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>People will
> > >>>>stop whining.
> > >>>
> > >>>*********************************
> > >>>Click once a day to give 100,000 books to children in need by the
> > >
> > > holidays
> > >
> > >>>http://www.theliteracysite.com
> > >>>*********************************
> > >>>
> > >>>Sequel's Sandbox: http://www.techno-kitten.com
> > >>>Home of PBL Peeper, a free PowerBuilder Developer's Toolkit.
> > >>>Version 2.2.06 now available at the Sandbox
> > >>>See the PB Troubleshooting Guide at the Sandbox
> > >>>^ ^
> > >>>o o
> > >>>=*=
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------070204020404020907090408
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Weekly updates? Are you talking about EBFs? I never knew those were 
weekly. And you apply everyone of those even if you are not seeing the 
problems that were addressed in those EBFs? Did you know that EBFs do 
not go through full testing? I am currently on 8.0.4 Build 10501 and it 
is working very well for me - what build are you on?

--
Rahul Jain


PB Dev wrote:
> simple question:
>    IF PB is Stable
>         why do we have weekly updates?
> 
> "Rahul Jain" <rahul.jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
> news:41b73c8a$1@forums-2-dub...
> 
>>Speak for yourself Mr. PB Dev. I (and I believe most of the PB developer
>>community) think PB is the best in it's class and relatively much more
>>stable.
>>
>>Rahul Jain
>>
>>
>>
>>PB Dev wrote:
>>
>>>How will they be able to create the Buzz!!  do they have a product that
> 
> is
> 
>>>working consistently?  I will have to think before I can answer to that
>>>question.
>>>
>>>For every small problems [and there are lots of], you are being told to
>>>install a patch that was released on such and such date [and make sure
> 
> you
> 
>>>use it only for a very specific problem otherwise that might break
> 
> something
> 
>>>else].  How many of us are there in the developer community that believe
> 
> PB
> 
>>>is a very stable product?  not many there too.  So how can Sybase create
> 
> a
> 
>>>buzz when the developer community that it is supporting itself is not
>>>convinced about the product.
>>>   A good strategy would be to hire few developers and make the product
> 
> more
> 
>>>stable so that the developers are not asked to check updates every
> 
> sunday to
> 
>>>see if Sybase has fixed something that is not working in their setup.
>>>Sybase's focus has been to incorporate new features in PowerBuilder
> 
> leaving
> 
>>>behind all the issues to be later taken care by their weekly fixes.
> 
> This is
> 
>>>not the solution to the problem.   I have not seen a stable product
> 
> since
> 
>>>6.5 was released.  Everyone knows about what happened when 7.0 was
>>>introduced.  Some said 8.0 is more stable, then heard, 9.0 is more
> 
> stable
> 
>>>than 8.0, same story continues with 10.0 release.  But still there are
> 
> lots
> 
>>>of issues with every release.  Not many companies [I would guess about
> 
> 70%]
> 
>>>are using all the new features in PB that Sybase is wasting all its
>>>resources on.
>>>
>>>   I would suggest, better strategy would be to create a very stable
> 
> product
> 
>>>and then keep on adding features without compromising on the base
> 
> product
> 
>>>[and believe me 70% of the applications are still client server, please
>>>don't loose them SYBASE!!!!].
>>>
>>>GIVE US A GOOD STABLE BASE PRODUCT FIRST!!!!.
>>>
>>>
>>>"Rahul Jain" <rahul.jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
>>>news:41b7275e$1@forums-2-dub...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Good idea Daniel.
>>>>
>>>>PB is Back! buzz could work too... Sybase like most of us thinks PB was
>>>>never "dead", but outside of PB-world, most of the ppl think it's dead.
>>>>So how do you create a buzz for something that's dead? Tell them it's
>>>>baaaack! :)
>>>>
>>>>Just my 2 cents.
>>>>
>>>>Rahul Jain
>>>>
>>>>P.S: I would contribute towards a full page NYT ad for PB :).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Daniel Coppersmith wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I think it's about creating a buzz in the marketplace somehow.
>>>>>
>>>>>Has Sybase considered "giving away" a few installs to get showcases out
>>>>>there?  Find some high profile customer who is willing to be a show
> 
> pony
> 
>>>in
>>>
>>>
>>>>>exchange for having Sybase come in and write them a slick PB / EAS /
>>>>>Pocketbuilder app....  make it look cool, then parade it around.  It
>>>
>>>would
>>>
>>>
>>>>>be an investment, but it could pay off for marketing folks who can say,
>>>>>"come see what our tools did for this big company!"
>>>>>
>>>>>Right now, there's no buzz.  It's all .NOT.
>>>>>
>>>>>My 2 cents adjusted for inflation.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"PB Dev" <sybase> wrote in message news:41b62965$1@forums-2-dub...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I believe what is happening is, those of us who have been with
>>>>>
>>>>>PowerBuilder
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>for many many years, will continue to believe that there will soon
> 
> come
> 
>>>a
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>day when people will start moving towards PowerBuilder.
>>>>>>There is also another reason for the above thought, that about 75% of
>>>
>>>them
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>[I mean professionals with more than 5-6-7-8 years of experience]
> 
> won't
> 
>>>be
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>able to change their profession because companies are looking for a
> 
> very
> 
>>>>>>diversed qualification [not only PB  but, .NET or JAVA or something
>>>
>>>else,
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>which not many of the PB professionals have].
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Very soon it will become like a dead end.  Either leave the IT or live
>>>>>
>>>>>with
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>PB [or become a Manager].
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Not a very optimistic opinion but this is just a thought
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Terry Voth" <sequel@techno-kitten.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:m44cr0tt5ql77m2efbdiqk1fi9m98tda5f@4ax.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Optimist!! <BEG>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On 7 Dec 2004 10:40:17 -0800, azaleski@anzasoft.pl wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>People will
>>>>>>>>stop whining.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>*********************************
>>>>>>>Click once a day to give 100,000 books to children in need by the
>>>>>
>>>>>holidays
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://www.theliteracysite.com
>>>>>>>*********************************
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Sequel's Sandbox: http://www.techno-kitten.com
>>>>>>>Home of PBL Peeper, a free PowerBuilder Developer's Toolkit.
>>>>>>>Version 2.2.06 now available at the Sandbox
>>>>>>>See the PB Troubleshooting Guide at the Sandbox
>>>>>>>^ ^
>>>>>>>o o
>>>>>>>=*=
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>
> 
> 


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--------------070204020404020907090408--

He does have a point, as far as our group goes..
 > For every small problems [and there are lots of], you are being told to
> > install a patch that was released on such and such date [and make sure
you
> > use it only for a very specific problem otherwise that might break
something
> > else].

We have PB10 but since I've seen it released, I've started seeing posts on
PB10 for things broken that we use.  Just like other developers can relate
to, our app is in production for more than 50 users (with the next major
release to go to over 100) and for right now I can't consider switching 5
developers over to PB10.  Regression testing isn't the problem - its those
things that may be broken that I may not find out until later.

I'm sure y'all know the saying "If I ain't broke, why upgrade?"

Also, it may be just me since we are developing a Client-Server server app.
The push by Sybase seems to be toward .Net.  I know they need to stay on top
of competition, but don't forget about those clients you already have.

My 4 cents (adjusted for inflation :) )

-- 
Evita Chapa
Senior Systems Analyst II
Command Technologies, Inc.

"Rahul Jain" <rahul.jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
news:41b73c8a$1@forums-2-dub...
> Speak for yourself Mr. PB Dev. I (and I believe most of the PB developer
> community) think PB is the best in it's class and relatively much more
> stable.
>
> Rahul Jain
>
>
>
> PB Dev wrote:
> > How will they be able to create the Buzz!!  do they have a product that
is
> > working consistently?  I will have to think before I can answer to that
> > question.
> >
> > For every small problems [and there are lots of], you are being told to
> > install a patch that was released on such and such date [and make sure
you
> > use it only for a very specific problem otherwise that might break
something
> > else].  How many of us are there in the developer community that believe
PB
> > is a very stable product?  not many there too.  So how can Sybase create
a
> > buzz when the developer community that it is supporting itself is not
> > convinced about the product.
> >    A good strategy would be to hire few developers and make the product
more
> > stable so that the developers are not asked to check updates every
sunday to
> > see if Sybase has fixed something that is not working in their setup.
> > Sybase's focus has been to incorporate new features in PowerBuilder
leaving
> > behind all the issues to be later taken care by their weekly fixes.
This is
> > not the solution to the problem.   I have not seen a stable product
since
> > 6.5 was released.  Everyone knows about what happened when 7.0 was
> > introduced.  Some said 8.0 is more stable, then heard, 9.0 is more
stable
> > than 8.0, same story continues with 10.0 release.  But still there are
lots
> > of issues with every release.  Not many companies [I would guess about
70%]
> > are using all the new features in PB that Sybase is wasting all its
> > resources on.
> >
> >    I would suggest, better strategy would be to create a very stable
product
> > and then keep on adding features without compromising on the base
product
> > [and believe me 70% of the applications are still client server, please
> > don't loose them SYBASE!!!!].
> >
> > GIVE US A GOOD STABLE BASE PRODUCT FIRST!!!!.
> >
> >
> > "Rahul Jain" <rahul.jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
> > news:41b7275e$1@forums-2-dub...
> >
> >>Good idea Daniel.
> >>
> >>PB is Back! buzz could work too... Sybase like most of us thinks PB was
> >>never "dead", but outside of PB-world, most of the ppl think it's dead.
> >>So how do you create a buzz for something that's dead? Tell them it's
> >>baaaack! :)
> >>
> >>Just my 2 cents.
> >>
> >>Rahul Jain
> >>
> >>P.S: I would contribute towards a full page NYT ad for PB :).
> >>
> >>
> >>Daniel Coppersmith wrote:
> >>
> >>>I think it's about creating a buzz in the marketplace somehow.
> >>>
> >>>Has Sybase considered "giving away" a few installs to get showcases out
> >>>there?  Find some high profile customer who is willing to be a show
pony
> >
> > in
> >
> >>>exchange for having Sybase come in and write them a slick PB / EAS /
> >>>Pocketbuilder app....  make it look cool, then parade it around.  It
> >
> > would
> >
> >>>be an investment, but it could pay off for marketing folks who can say,
> >>>"come see what our tools did for this big company!"
> >>>
> >>>Right now, there's no buzz.  It's all .NOT.
> >>>
> >>>My 2 cents adjusted for inflation.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>"PB Dev" <sybase> wrote in message news:41b62965$1@forums-2-dub...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I believe what is happening is, those of us who have been with
> >>>
> >>>PowerBuilder
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>for many many years, will continue to believe that there will soon
come
> >
> > a
> >
> >>>>day when people will start moving towards PowerBuilder.
> >>>>There is also another reason for the above thought, that about 75% of
> >
> > them
> >
> >>>>[I mean professionals with more than 5-6-7-8 years of experience]
won't
> >
> > be
> >
> >>>>able to change their profession because companies are looking for a
very
> >>>>diversed qualification [not only PB  but, .NET or JAVA or something
> >
> > else,
> >
> >>>>which not many of the PB professionals have].
> >>>>
> >>>>Very soon it will become like a dead end.  Either leave the IT or live
> >>>
> >>>with
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>PB [or become a Manager].
> >>>>
> >>>>Not a very optimistic opinion but this is just a thought
> >>>>
> >>>>"Terry Voth" <sequel@techno-kitten.com> wrote in message
> >>>>news:m44cr0tt5ql77m2efbdiqk1fi9m98tda5f@4ax.com...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Optimist!! <BEG>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>On 7 Dec 2004 10:40:17 -0800, azaleski@anzasoft.pl wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>People will
> >>>>>>stop whining.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>*********************************
> >>>>>Click once a day to give 100,000 books to children in need by the
> >>>
> >>>holidays
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>http://www.theliteracysite.com
> >>>>>*********************************
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Sequel's Sandbox: http://www.techno-kitten.com
> >>>>>Home of PBL Peeper, a free PowerBuilder Developer's Toolkit.
> >>>>>Version 2.2.06 now available at the Sandbox
> >>>>>See the PB Troubleshooting Guide at the Sandbox
> >>>>>^ ^
> >>>>>o o
> >>>>>=*=
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

PB10 is still pretty new.  Most people who have been using PowerBuilder for
many years realize that they are taking a considerable risk by putting a new
version of PowerBuilder into production.  You do this - you take your
chances.  Live with it - or don't go to production so quick.

BUT - this is nothing negative about Sybase.

This is REALITY for the software world in general.

Take Oracle for example.  The people who immediately grabbed Oracle 9 (first
release) and went to production with it - for sure quite a few had serious
problems.  Once again - you take the first release and go right into
production - well - you take your chances.  It was not until Oracle 9.2 that
the Oracle community in general decided it was fairly "stable".

Take Microsoft for example.  Look at initial releases of Operating Systems.
Windows NT 4.0 (with no service packs).  Windows 2000 (with no service
packs).

We understand that no company (Sybase, Oracle, Microsoft, whoever) can test
all ways their product can be used - and still release the product in a
timely fashion so as to not completely loose their market.  When the product
is released - that means it has passed internal testing and perhaps a small
beta test.  Now it hits the general population and another level of
"testing" begins.  And hence a new level of "patches" (ebfs, service packs,
updates, whatever) also begin.

We expect a significant level of stability to be present in PowerBuilder
10.0.1.  Before that - we expect Sybase to be responding quickly to the most
serious of bugs and releasing patches as necessary in order to allow people
to continue testing and using the product.

But - everybody has their own comfort factor for how much risk they are
willing to take.  You just have to go into it realistically and with your
eyes open.

Just my take on it....

Tim.

"EChapa" <evita.chapa_NOSPAM@randolph.afDOTmil> wrote in message
news:41b751de$1@forums-2-dub...
> He does have a point, as far as our group goes..
>  > For every small problems [and there are lots of], you are being told to
> > > install a patch that was released on such and such date [and make sure
> you
> > > use it only for a very specific problem otherwise that might break
> something
> > > else].
>
> We have PB10 but since I've seen it released, I've started seeing posts on
> PB10 for things broken that we use.  Just like other developers can relate
> to, our app is in production for more than 50 users (with the next major
> release to go to over 100) and for right now I can't consider switching 5
> developers over to PB10.  Regression testing isn't the problem - its those
> things that may be broken that I may not find out until later.
>
> I'm sure y'all know the saying "If I ain't broke, why upgrade?"
>
> Also, it may be just me since we are developing a Client-Server server
app.
> The push by Sybase seems to be toward .Net.  I know they need to stay on
top
> of competition, but don't forget about those clients you already have.
>
> My 4 cents (adjusted for inflation :) )
>
> -- 
> Evita Chapa
> Senior Systems Analyst II
> Command Technologies, Inc.
>
> "Rahul Jain" <rahul.jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
> news:41b73c8a$1@forums-2-dub...
> > Speak for yourself Mr. PB Dev. I (and I believe most of the PB developer
> > community) think PB is the best in it's class and relatively much more
> > stable.
> >
> > Rahul Jain
> >
> >
> >
> > PB Dev wrote:
> > > How will they be able to create the Buzz!!  do they have a product
that
> is
> > > working consistently?  I will have to think before I can answer to
that
> > > question.
> > >
> > > For every small problems [and there are lots of], you are being told
to
> > > install a patch that was released on such and such date [and make sure
> you
> > > use it only for a very specific problem otherwise that might break
> something
> > > else].  How many of us are there in the developer community that
believe
> PB
> > > is a very stable product?  not many there too.  So how can Sybase crea
te
> a
> > > buzz when the developer community that it is supporting itself is not
> > > convinced about the product.
> > >    A good strategy would be to hire few developers and make the
product
> more
> > > stable so that the developers are not asked to check updates every
> sunday to
> > > see if Sybase has fixed something that is not working in their setup.
> > > Sybase's focus has been to incorporate new features in PowerBuilder
> leaving
> > > behind all the issues to be later taken care by their weekly fixes.
> This is
> > > not the solution to the problem.   I have not seen a stable product
> since
> > > 6.5 was released.  Everyone knows about what happened when 7.0 was
> > > introduced.  Some said 8.0 is more stable, then heard, 9.0 is more
> stable
> > > than 8.0, same story continues with 10.0 release.  But still there are
> lots
> > > of issues with every release.  Not many companies [I would guess about
> 70%]
> > > are using all the new features in PB that Sybase is wasting all its
> > > resources on.
> > >
> > >    I would suggest, better strategy would be to create a very stable
> product
> > > and then keep on adding features without compromising on the base
> product
> > > [and believe me 70% of the applications are still client server,
please
> > > don't loose them SYBASE!!!!].
> > >
> > > GIVE US A GOOD STABLE BASE PRODUCT FIRST!!!!.
> > >
> > >
> > > "Rahul Jain" <rahul.jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
> > > news:41b7275e$1@forums-2-dub...
> > >
> > >>Good idea Daniel.
> > >>
> > >>PB is Back! buzz could work too... Sybase like most of us thinks PB
was
> > >>never "dead", but outside of PB-world, most of the ppl think it's
dead.
> > >>So how do you create a buzz for something that's dead? Tell them it's
> > >>baaaack! :)
> > >>
> > >>Just my 2 cents.
> > >>
> > >>Rahul Jain
> > >>
> > >>P.S: I would contribute towards a full page NYT ad for PB :).
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Daniel Coppersmith wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>I think it's about creating a buzz in the marketplace somehow.
> > >>>
> > >>>Has Sybase considered "giving away" a few installs to get showcases
out
> > >>>there?  Find some high profile customer who is willing to be a show
> pony
> > >
> > > in
> > >
> > >>>exchange for having Sybase come in and write them a slick PB / EAS /
> > >>>Pocketbuilder app....  make it look cool, then parade it around.  It
> > >
> > > would
> > >
> > >>>be an investment, but it could pay off for marketing folks who can
say,
> > >>>"come see what our tools did for this big company!"
> > >>>
> > >>>Right now, there's no buzz.  It's all .NOT.
> > >>>
> > >>>My 2 cents adjusted for inflation.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>"PB Dev" <sybase> wrote in message news:41b62965$1@forums-2-dub...
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>I believe what is happening is, those of us who have been with
> > >>>
> > >>>PowerBuilder
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>for many many years, will continue to believe that there will soon
> come
> > >
> > > a
> > >
> > >>>>day when people will start moving towards PowerBuilder.
> > >>>>There is also another reason for the above thought, that about 75%
of
> > >
> > > them
> > >
> > >>>>[I mean professionals with more than 5-6-7-8 years of experience]
> won't
> > >
> > > be
> > >
> > >>>>able to change their profession because companies are looking for a
> very
> > >>>>diversed qualification [not only PB  but, .NET or JAVA or something
> > >
> > > else,
> > >
> > >>>>which not many of the PB professionals have].
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Very soon it will become like a dead end.  Either leave the IT or
live
> > >>>
> > >>>with
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>PB [or become a Manager].
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Not a very optimistic opinion but this is just a thought
> > >>>>
> > >>>>"Terry Voth" <sequel@techno-kitten.com> wrote in message
> > >>>>news:m44cr0tt5ql77m2efbdiqk1fi9m98tda5f@4ax.com...
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>Optimist!! <BEG>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>On 7 Dec 2004 10:40:17 -0800, azaleski@anzasoft.pl wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>People will
> > >>>>>>stop whining.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>*********************************
> > >>>>>Click once a day to give 100,000 books to children in need by the
> > >>>
> > >>>holidays
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>>http://www.theliteracysite.com
> > >>>>>*********************************
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>Sequel's Sandbox: http://www.techno-kitten.com
> > >>>>>Home of PBL Peeper, a free PowerBuilder Developer's Toolkit.
> > >>>>>Version 2.2.06 now available at the Sandbox
> > >>>>>See the PB Troubleshooting Guide at the Sandbox
> > >>>>>^ ^
> > >>>>>o o
> > >>>>>=*=
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Tim as you pointed out,
   Oracle 9 had lots of problem in the beginning but was fairly stable after
9.2 or whatever that is.
   The point is, after couple of releases, the product do become more
stable.  Same cannot be said about PB.  You install a patch for a problem,
and that might break something else in your application and the story
continues.  And this is not for one or two versions, we have been seeing
this since PB 7 was released and that was in 2000 [or may be before that] if
I am not wrong.  4 years is pretty long time.  You don't just add new
features but continue to build features on a strong base.  That is what I
was trying to say.



"Timothy Madsen" <timothy_madsen@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:41b76a45$1@forums-2-dub...
> PB10 is still pretty new.  Most people who have been using PowerBuilder
for
> many years realize that they are taking a considerable risk by putting a
new
> version of PowerBuilder into production.  You do this - you take your
> chances.  Live with it - or don't go to production so quick.
>
> BUT - this is nothing negative about Sybase.
>
> This is REALITY for the software world in general.
>
> Take Oracle for example.  The people who immediately grabbed Oracle 9
(first
> release) and went to production with it - for sure quite a few had serious
> problems.  Once again - you take the first release and go right into
> production - well - you take your chances.  It was not until Oracle 9.2
that
> the Oracle community in general decided it was fairly "stable".
>
> Take Microsoft for example.  Look at initial releases of Operating
Systems.
> Windows NT 4.0 (with no service packs).  Windows 2000 (with no service
> packs).
>
> We understand that no company (Sybase, Oracle, Microsoft, whoever) can
test
> all ways their product can be used - and still release the product in a
> timely fashion so as to not completely loose their market.  When the
product
> is released - that means it has passed internal testing and perhaps a
small
> beta test.  Now it hits the general population and another level of
> "testing" begins.  And hence a new level of "patches" (ebfs, service
packs,
> updates, whatever) also begin.
>
> We expect a significant level of stability to be present in PowerBuilder
> 10.0.1.  Before that - we expect Sybase to be responding quickly to the
most
> serious of bugs and releasing patches as necessary in order to allow
people
> to continue testing and using the product.
>
> But - everybody has their own comfort factor for how much risk they are
> willing to take.  You just have to go into it realistically and with your
> eyes open.
>
> Just my take on it....
>
> Tim.
>
> "EChapa" <evita.chapa_NOSPAM@randolph.afDOTmil> wrote in message
> news:41b751de$1@forums-2-dub...
> > He does have a point, as far as our group goes..
> >  > For every small problems [and there are lots of], you are being told
to
> > > > install a patch that was released on such and such date [and make
sure
> > you
> > > > use it only for a very specific problem otherwise that might break
> > something
> > > > else].
> >
> > We have PB10 but since I've seen it released, I've started seeing posts
on
> > PB10 for things broken that we use.  Just like other developers can
relate
> > to, our app is in production for more than 50 users (with the next major
> > release to go to over 100) and for right now I can't consider switching
5
> > developers over to PB10.  Regression testing isn't the problem - its
those
> > things that may be broken that I may not find out until later.
> >
> > I'm sure y'all know the saying "If I ain't broke, why upgrade?"
> >
> > Also, it may be just me since we are developing a Client-Server server
> app.
> > The push by Sybase seems to be toward .Net.  I know they need to stay on
> top
> > of competition, but don't forget about those clients you already have.
> >
> > My 4 cents (adjusted for inflation :) )
> >
> > -- 
> > Evita Chapa
> > Senior Systems Analyst II
> > Command Technologies, Inc.
> >
> > "Rahul Jain" <rahul.jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
> > news:41b73c8a$1@forums-2-dub...
> > > Speak for yourself Mr. PB Dev. I (and I believe most of the PB
developer
> > > community) think PB is the best in it's class and relatively much more
> > > stable.
> > >
> > > Rahul Jain
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > PB Dev wrote:
> > > > How will they be able to create the Buzz!!  do they have a product
> that
> > is
> > > > working consistently?  I will have to think before I can answer to
> that
> > > > question.
> > > >
> > > > For every small problems [and there are lots of], you are being told
> to
> > > > install a patch that was released on such and such date [and make
sure
> > you
> > > > use it only for a very specific problem otherwise that might break
> > something
> > > > else].  How many of us are there in the developer community that
> believe
> > PB
> > > > is a very stable product?  not many there too.  So how can Sybase
crea
> te
> > a
> > > > buzz when the developer community that it is supporting itself is
not
> > > > convinced about the product.
> > > >    A good strategy would be to hire few developers and make the
> product
> > more
> > > > stable so that the developers are not asked to check updates every
> > sunday to
> > > > see if Sybase has fixed something that is not working in their
setup.
> > > > Sybase's focus has been to incorporate new features in PowerBuilder
> > leaving
> > > > behind all the issues to be later taken care by their weekly fixes.
> > This is
> > > > not the solution to the problem.   I have not seen a stable product
> > since
> > > > 6.5 was released.  Everyone knows about what happened when 7.0 was
> > > > introduced.  Some said 8.0 is more stable, then heard, 9.0 is more
> > stable
> > > > than 8.0, same story continues with 10.0 release.  But still there
are
> > lots
> > > > of issues with every release.  Not many companies [I would guess
about
> > 70%]
> > > > are using all the new features in PB that Sybase is wasting all its
> > > > resources on.
> > > >
> > > >    I would suggest, better strategy would be to create a very stable
> > product
> > > > and then keep on adding features without compromising on the base
> > product
> > > > [and believe me 70% of the applications are still client server,
> please
> > > > don't loose them SYBASE!!!!].
> > > >
> > > > GIVE US A GOOD STABLE BASE PRODUCT FIRST!!!!.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Rahul Jain" <rahul.jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:41b7275e$1@forums-2-dub...
> > > >
> > > >>Good idea Daniel.
> > > >>
> > > >>PB is Back! buzz could work too... Sybase like most of us thinks PB
> was
> > > >>never "dead", but outside of PB-world, most of the ppl think it's
> dead.
> > > >>So how do you create a buzz for something that's dead? Tell them
it's
> > > >>baaaack! :)
> > > >>
> > > >>Just my 2 cents.
> > > >>
> > > >>Rahul Jain
> > > >>
> > > >>P.S: I would contribute towards a full page NYT ad for PB :).
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>Daniel Coppersmith wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>>I think it's about creating a buzz in the marketplace somehow.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Has Sybase considered "giving away" a few installs to get showcases
> out
> > > >>>there?  Find some high profile customer who is willing to be a show
> > pony
> > > >
> > > > in
> > > >
> > > >>>exchange for having Sybase come in and write them a slick PB / EAS
/
> > > >>>Pocketbuilder app....  make it look cool, then parade it around.
It
> > > >
> > > > would
> > > >
> > > >>>be an investment, but it could pay off for marketing folks who can
> say,
> > > >>>"come see what our tools did for this big company!"
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Right now, there's no buzz.  It's all .NOT.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>My 2 cents adjusted for inflation.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>"PB Dev" <sybase> wrote in message news:41b62965$1@forums-2-dub...
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>I believe what is happening is, those of us who have been with
> > > >>>
> > > >>>PowerBuilder
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>for many many years, will continue to believe that there will soon
> > come
> > > >
> > > > a
> > > >
> > > >>>>day when people will start moving towards PowerBuilder.
> > > >>>>There is also another reason for the above thought, that about 75%
> of
> > > >
> > > > them
> > > >
> > > >>>>[I mean professionals with more than 5-6-7-8 years of experience]
> > won't
> > > >
> > > > be
> > > >
> > > >>>>able to change their profession because companies are looking for
a
> > very
> > > >>>>diversed qualification [not only PB  but, .NET or JAVA or
something
> > > >
> > > > else,
> > > >
> > > >>>>which not many of the PB professionals have].
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>Very soon it will become like a dead end.  Either leave the IT or
> live
> > > >>>
> > > >>>with
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>PB [or become a Manager].
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>Not a very optimistic opinion but this is just a thought
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>"Terry Voth" <sequel@techno-kitten.com> wrote in message
> > > >>>>news:m44cr0tt5ql77m2efbdiqk1fi9m98tda5f@4ax.com...
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>>Optimist!! <BEG>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>On 7 Dec 2004 10:40:17 -0800, azaleski@anzasoft.pl wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>People will
> > > >>>>>>stop whining.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>*********************************
> > > >>>>>Click once a day to give 100,000 books to children in need by the
> > > >>>
> > > >>>holidays
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>>http://www.theliteracysite.com
> > > >>>>>*********************************
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>Sequel's Sandbox: http://www.techno-kitten.com
> > > >>>>>Home of PBL Peeper, a free PowerBuilder Developer's Toolkit.
> > > >>>>>Version 2.2.06 now available at the Sandbox
> > > >>>>>See the PB Troubleshooting Guide at the Sandbox
> > > >>>>>^ ^
> > > >>>>>o o
> > > >>>>>=*=
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

"PB Dev" <sybase> wrote in message news:41b76c6f$1@forums-2-dub...
> Tim as you pointed out,
>   Oracle 9 had lots of problem in the beginning but was fairly stable after
> 9.2 or whatever that is.
>   The point is, after couple of releases, the product do become more
> stable.  Same cannot be said about PB.  You install a patch for a problem,
> and that might break something else in your application and the story
> continues.  And this is not for one or two versions, we have been seeing
> this since PB 7 was released and that was in 2000 [or may be before that] if
> I am not wrong.  4 years is pretty long time.  You don't just add new
> features but continue to build features on a strong base.  That is what I
> was trying to say.
>
>


Your experience...  Not mine.  We've actually been in production on P7.0.4 for quite some time.  Very stable for us.

-- 
Paul Horan[TeamSybase]

I just checked again and Visual Studio has not had any updates for
quite some time. Is it bug free? Not by a long shot. Are we perfect?
No, but I challenge you to find another development tool vendor who is
as responsive to their community in terms of providing EBFs and
maintenance releases as Sybase is. 

We will take your comments under advisement and we are trying to make
PowerBuilder as good as it possibly can be. I will add that of all the
postings on this thread, your's is the only anonymous one. Most people
tend to give more credence to something said by people willing to
identify themselves. 

Regards,
Dave Fish
Sybase

TeamSybase blogs: http://www.teamsybase.net/blogs

DataWindow.NET code examples available on CodeXchange:
http://datawindownet.codexchange.sybase.com

On 8 Dec 2004 08:39:33 -0800, "PB Dev" <sybase> wrote:

>How will they be able to create the Buzz!!  do they have a product that is
>working consistently?  I will have to think before I can answer to that
>question.
>
>For every small problems [and there are lots of], you are being told to
>install a patch that was released on such and such date [and make sure you
>use it only for a very specific problem otherwise that might break something
>else].  How many of us are there in the developer community that believe PB
>is a very stable product?  not many there too.  So how can Sybase create a
>buzz when the developer community that it is supporting itself is not
>convinced about the product.
>   A good strategy would be to hire few developers and make the product more
>stable so that the developers are not asked to check updates every sunday to
>see if Sybase has fixed something that is not working in their setup.
>Sybase's focus has been to incorporate new features in PowerBuilder leaving
>behind all the issues to be later taken care by their weekly fixes.  This is
>not the solution to the problem.   I have not seen a stable product since
>6.5 was released.  Everyone knows about what happened when 7.0 was
>introduced.  Some said 8.0 is more stable, then heard, 9.0 is more stable
>than 8.0, same story continues with 10.0 release.  But still there are lots
>of issues with every release.  Not many companies [I would guess about 70%]
>are using all the new features in PB that Sybase is wasting all its
>resources on.
>
>   I would suggest, better strategy would be to create a very stable product
>and then keep on adding features without compromising on the base product
>[and believe me 70% of the applications are still client server, please
>don't loose them SYBASE!!!!].
>
>GIVE US A GOOD STABLE BASE PRODUCT FIRST!!!!.
>
>
>"Rahul Jain" <rahul.jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
>news:41b7275e$1@forums-2-dub...
>> Good idea Daniel.
>>
>> PB is Back! buzz could work too... Sybase like most of us thinks PB was
>> never "dead", but outside of PB-world, most of the ppl think it's dead.
>> So how do you create a buzz for something that's dead? Tell them it's
>> baaaack! :)
>>
>> Just my 2 cents.
>>
>> Rahul Jain
>>
>> P.S: I would contribute towards a full page NYT ad for PB :).
>>
>>
>> Daniel Coppersmith wrote:
>> > I think it's about creating a buzz in the marketplace somehow.
>> >
>> > Has Sybase considered "giving away" a few installs to get showcases out
>> > there?  Find some high profile customer who is willing to be a show pony
>in
>> > exchange for having Sybase come in and write them a slick PB / EAS /
>> > Pocketbuilder app....  make it look cool, then parade it around.  It
>would
>> > be an investment, but it could pay off for marketing folks who can say,
>> > "come see what our tools did for this big company!"
>> >
>> > Right now, there's no buzz.  It's all .NOT.
>> >
>> > My 2 cents adjusted for inflation.
>> >
>> >
>> > "PB Dev" <sybase> wrote in message news:41b62965$1@forums-2-dub...
>> >
>> >>I believe what is happening is, those of us who have been with
>> >
>> > PowerBuilder
>> >
>> >>for many many years, will continue to believe that there will soon come
>a
>> >>day when people will start moving towards PowerBuilder.
>> >>There is also another reason for the above thought, that about 75% of
>them
>> >>[I mean professionals with more than 5-6-7-8 years of experience] won't
>be
>> >>able to change their profession because companies are looking for a very
>> >>diversed qualification [not only PB  but, .NET or JAVA or something
>else,
>> >>which not many of the PB professionals have].
>> >>
>> >>Very soon it will become like a dead end.  Either leave the IT or live
>> >
>> > with
>> >
>> >>PB [or become a Manager].
>> >>
>> >>Not a very optimistic opinion but this is just a thought
>> >>
>> >>"Terry Voth" <sequel@techno-kitten.com> wrote in message
>> >>news:m44cr0tt5ql77m2efbdiqk1fi9m98tda5f@4ax.com...
>> >>
>> >>>Optimist!! <BEG>
>> >>>
>> >>>On 7 Dec 2004 10:40:17 -0800, azaleski@anzasoft.pl wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>People will
>> >>>>stop whining.
>> >>>
>> >>>*********************************
>> >>>Click once a day to give 100,000 books to children in need by the
>> >
>> > holidays
>> >
>> >>>http://www.theliteracysite.com
>> >>>*********************************
>> >>>
>> >>>Sequel's Sandbox: http://www.techno-kitten.com
>> >>>Home of PBL Peeper, a free PowerBuilder Developer's Toolkit.
>> >>>Version 2.2.06 now available at the Sandbox
>> >>>See the PB Troubleshooting Guide at the Sandbox
>> >>>^ ^
>> >>>o o
>> >>>=*=
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

Dave,
   I am really sorry if I had said something really wrong.  As a PB
developer with more than 8 years of experience, I was just expressing what I
think was true.  I never wanted to undermine anything.
   That does not mean that I don't love PB.  Otherwise I would not be using
it at all.   However, even you will believe, and I too have seen this talk
in various groups that I have worked with
 - when the application crashes [or just goes off without any message what
so ever], developers do not take is very seriously, they just ignore it
saying, ya ya ya... PowerBuilder is like that only.  Crashing of application
is taken as a joke within the group.
 - another fact is, even before the product is stable, it is discontinued
and no longer supported.  And you are left with an option to either go with
the new release [with unknown bugs] or make your code adjustments and create
a work around, which eventually you will have to revert back to, in future.

I am not comparing PB with any other product, and I too have used Visual
Studio.  Like in PB 8.0.2, you would expect rowfocuschanging and
rowfocuschanged event to work consistently across releases, but that was
being triggered twice.  And this is just an example.  Now how can a bug like
that gets in the application and in the field from a test lab?
There are so many things like that, that do not go well with the developers
themselves.  Then how can you convince the company to move to the product?





"Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@_no_spam_sybase.com> wrote in message
news:41b77a1f.28845347@forums.sybase.com...
> I just checked again and Visual Studio has not had any updates for
> quite some time. Is it bug free? Not by a long shot. Are we perfect?
> No, but I challenge you to find another development tool vendor who is
> as responsive to their community in terms of providing EBFs and
> maintenance releases as Sybase is.
>
> We will take your comments under advisement and we are trying to make
> PowerBuilder as good as it possibly can be. I will add that of all the
> postings on this thread, your's is the only anonymous one. Most people
> tend to give more credence to something said by people willing to
> identify themselves.
>
> Regards,
> Dave Fish
> Sybase
>
> TeamSybase blogs: http://www.teamsybase.net/blogs
>
> DataWindow.NET code examples available on CodeXchange:
> http://datawindownet.codexchange.sybase.com
>
> On 8 Dec 2004 08:39:33 -0800, "PB Dev" <sybase> wrote:
>
> >How will they be able to create the Buzz!!  do they have a product that
is
> >working consistently?  I will have to think before I can answer to that
> >question.
> >
> >For every small problems [and there are lots of], you are being told to
> >install a patch that was released on such and such date [and make sure
you
> >use it only for a very specific problem otherwise that might break
something
> >else].  How many of us are there in the developer community that believe
PB
> >is a very stable product?  not many there too.  So how can Sybase create
a
> >buzz when the developer community that it is supporting itself is not
> >convinced about the product.
> >   A good strategy would be to hire few developers and make the product
more
> >stable so that the developers are not asked to check updates every sunday
to
> >see if Sybase has fixed something that is not working in their setup.
> >Sybase's focus has been to incorporate new features in PowerBuilder
leaving
> >behind all the issues to be later taken care by their weekly fixes.  This
is
> >not the solution to the problem.   I have not seen a stable product since
> >6.5 was released.  Everyone knows about what happened when 7.0 was
> >introduced.  Some said 8.0 is more stable, then heard, 9.0 is more stable
> >than 8.0, same story continues with 10.0 release.  But still there are
lots
> >of issues with every release.  Not many companies [I would guess about
70%]
> >are using all the new features in PB that Sybase is wasting all its
> >resources on.
> >
> >   I would suggest, better strategy would be to create a very stable
product
> >and then keep on adding features without compromising on the base product
> >[and believe me 70% of the applications are still client server, please
> >don't loose them SYBASE!!!!].
> >
> >GIVE US A GOOD STABLE BASE PRODUCT FIRST!!!!.
> >
> >
> >"Rahul Jain" <rahul.jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
> >news:41b7275e$1@forums-2-dub...
> >> Good idea Daniel.
> >>
> >> PB is Back! buzz could work too... Sybase like most of us thinks PB was
> >> never "dead", but outside of PB-world, most of the ppl think it's dead.
> >> So how do you create a buzz for something that's dead? Tell them it's
> >> baaaack! :)
> >>
> >> Just my 2 cents.
> >>
> >> Rahul Jain
> >>
> >> P.S: I would contribute towards a full page NYT ad for PB :).
> >>
> >>
> >> Daniel Coppersmith wrote:
> >> > I think it's about creating a buzz in the marketplace somehow.
> >> >
> >> > Has Sybase considered "giving away" a few installs to get showcases
out
> >> > there?  Find some high profile customer who is willing to be a show
pony
> >in
> >> > exchange for having Sybase come in and write them a slick PB / EAS /
> >> > Pocketbuilder app....  make it look cool, then parade it around.  It
> >would
> >> > be an investment, but it could pay off for marketing folks who can
say,
> >> > "come see what our tools did for this big company!"
> >> >
> >> > Right now, there's no buzz.  It's all .NOT.
> >> >
> >> > My 2 cents adjusted for inflation.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > "PB Dev" <sybase> wrote in message news:41b62965$1@forums-2-dub...
> >> >
> >> >>I believe what is happening is, those of us who have been with
> >> >
> >> > PowerBuilder
> >> >
> >> >>for many many years, will continue to believe that there will soon
come
> >a
> >> >>day when people will start moving towards PowerBuilder.
> >> >>There is also another reason for the above thought, that about 75% of
> >them
> >> >>[I mean professionals with more than 5-6-7-8 years of experience]
won't
> >be
> >> >>able to change their profession because companies are looking for a
very
> >> >>diversed qualification [not only PB  but, .NET or JAVA or something
> >else,
> >> >>which not many of the PB professionals have].
> >> >>
> >> >>Very soon it will become like a dead end.  Either leave the IT or
live
> >> >
> >> > with
> >> >
> >> >>PB [or become a Manager].
> >> >>
> >> >>Not a very optimistic opinion but this is just a thought
> >> >>
> >> >>"Terry Voth" <sequel@techno-kitten.com> wrote in message
> >> >>news:m44cr0tt5ql77m2efbdiqk1fi9m98tda5f@4ax.com...
> >> >>
> >> >>>Optimist!! <BEG>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>On 7 Dec 2004 10:40:17 -0800, azaleski@anzasoft.pl wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>People will
> >> >>>>stop whining.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>*********************************
> >> >>>Click once a day to give 100,000 books to children in need by the
> >> >
> >> > holidays
> >> >
> >> >>>http://www.theliteracysite.com
> >> >>>*********************************
> >> >>>
> >> >>>Sequel's Sandbox: http://www.techno-kitten.com
> >> >>>Home of PBL Peeper, a free PowerBuilder Developer's Toolkit.
> >> >>>Version 2.2.06 now available at the Sandbox
> >> >>>See the PB Troubleshooting Guide at the Sandbox
> >> >>>^ ^
> >> >>>o o
> >> >>>=*=
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>

And we are in production on PB9 for quite a while. Solid as a rock :-)


pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-))
Philip Salgannik

"Paul Horan[TeamSybase]" <paulhATvcisolutionsDOTcom> wrote in message 
news:41b773e1$1@forums-1-dub...
> "PB Dev" <sybase> wrote in message news:41b76c6f$1@forums-2-dub...
>> Tim as you pointed out,
>>   Oracle 9 had lots of problem in the beginning but was fairly stable 
>> after
>> 9.2 or whatever that is.
>>   The point is, after couple of releases, the product do become more
>> stable.  Same cannot be said about PB.  You install a patch for a 
>> problem,
>> and that might break something else in your application and the story
>> continues.  And this is not for one or two versions, we have been seeing
>> this since PB 7 was released and that was in 2000 [or may be before that] 
>> if
>> I am not wrong.  4 years is pretty long time.  You don't just add new
>> features but continue to build features on a strong base.  That is what I
>> was trying to say.
>>
>>
>
>
> Your experience...  Not mine.  We've actually been in production on P7.0.4 
> for quite some time.  Very stable for us.
>
> -- 
> Paul Horan[TeamSybase]
>
> 

I consider PB 9.0.1 build 6533 (which is a maintenance release) to be pretty
solid.  We are comfortable releasing this into critical production
environments.  We do not get customers calling us up with issues - which
turn out to be errors caused by Sybase related to the PB runtime.  Hence -
this is how I can justify calling PB 9.0.1 build 6533 "pretty solid".

Are there issues with build 6533?  Sure - but I consider them minor in the
grand scheme of things.  I don't expect perfection.  Obviously we don't
exercise all aspects of PowerBuilder.  Other people may be running into
serious issues - where perhaps we just don't touch that portion of
PowerBuilder in a particular manner.

Before we migrated to PB 9.0.1 build 6533, we were on PB 8.0.3 build 9704
(which is also a maintenance release).  We also considered this solid - and
never had a customer call in with a production issue which turned out to be
a Sybase problem with PowerBuilder.  Again - this (for us) equates to solid.

Before this - we were on PB 7.0.3 build 10009.  Same story.

As for patches - Sybase is no different that anybody else.  If we are going
to use a Sybase patch (or Oracle or IBM) - it goes through extensive
regression testing before it goes into production.  And then it goes into
production first at our controlled facility for a period of time - before it
starts going to external customers.  Which means we don't often upgrade our
version of PowerBuilder - the amount of work which goes into QA regression
is fairly high.  And we have a fairly firm policy of not using Sybase EBFs
for customer releases - rather we prefer to stay with the Sybase maintenance
releases.  We feel more comfortable with these for two reasons:
1)  We feel they get a higher level of QA from Sybase
2)  We feel that more PowerBuilder developers are using the maintenance
releases - hence more "real world" testing - outside of Sybase.
3)  Sybase tells us that if we are on an EBF - we are supposed to stop using
the EBF and start using the MR once the MR is released.

Tim.

"Philip Salgannik" <philemaxNOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:41b7aa1b$1@forums-2-dub...
> And we are in production on PB9 for quite a while. Solid as a rock :-)
>
>
> pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-))
> Philip Salgannik
>
> "Paul Horan[TeamSybase]" <paulhATvcisolutionsDOTcom> wrote in message
> news:41b773e1$1@forums-1-dub...
> > "PB Dev" <sybase> wrote in message news:41b76c6f$1@forums-2-dub...
> >> Tim as you pointed out,
> >>   Oracle 9 had lots of problem in the beginning but was fairly stable
> >> after
> >> 9.2 or whatever that is.
> >>   The point is, after couple of releases, the product do become more
> >> stable.  Same cannot be said about PB.  You install a patch for a
> >> problem,
> >> and that might break something else in your application and the story
> >> continues.  And this is not for one or two versions, we have been
seeing
> >> this since PB 7 was released and that was in 2000 [or may be before
that]
> >> if
> >> I am not wrong.  4 years is pretty long time.  You don't just add new
> >> features but continue to build features on a strong base.  That is what
I
> >> was trying to say.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Your experience...  Not mine.  We've actually been in production on
P7.0.4
> > for quite some time.  Very stable for us.
> >
> > -- 
> > Paul Horan[TeamSybase]
> >
> >
>
>

Are applying EBFs ( limited QA ) or actual releases?


"PB Dev" <sybase> wrote in message news:41b76c6f$1@forums-2-dub...
> Tim as you pointed out,
>    Oracle 9 had lots of problem in the beginning but was fairly stable
after
> 9.2 or whatever that is.
>    The point is, after couple of releases, the product do become more
> stable.  Same cannot be said about PB.  You install a patch for a problem,
> and that might break something else in your application and the story
> continues.  And this is not for one or two versions, we have been seeing
> this since PB 7 was released and that was in 2000 [or may be before that]
if
> I am not wrong.  4 years is pretty long time.  You don't just add new
> features but continue to build features on a strong base.  That is what I
> was trying to say.
>
>
>
> "Timothy Madsen" <timothy_madsen@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:41b76a45$1@forums-2-dub...
> > PB10 is still pretty new.  Most people who have been using PowerBuilder
> for
> > many years realize that they are taking a considerable risk by putting a
> new
> > version of PowerBuilder into production.  You do this - you take your
> > chances.  Live with it - or don't go to production so quick.
> >
> > BUT - this is nothing negative about Sybase.
> >
> > This is REALITY for the software world in general.
> >
> > Take Oracle for example.  The people who immediately grabbed Oracle 9
> (first
> > release) and went to production with it - for sure quite a few had
serious
> > problems.  Once again - you take the first release and go right into
> > production - well - you take your chances.  It was not until Oracle 9.2
> that
> > the Oracle community in general decided it was fairly "stable".
> >
> > Take Microsoft for example.  Look at initial releases of Operating
> Systems.
> > Windows NT 4.0 (with no service packs).  Windows 2000 (with no service
> > packs).
> >
> > We understand that no company (Sybase, Oracle, Microsoft, whoever) can
> test
> > all ways their product can be used - and still release the product in a
> > timely fashion so as to not completely loose their market.  When the
> product
> > is released - that means it has passed internal testing and perhaps a
> small
> > beta test.  Now it hits the general population and another level of
> > "testing" begins.  And hence a new level of "patches" (ebfs, service
> packs,
> > updates, whatever) also begin.
> >
> > We expect a significant level of stability to be present in PowerBuilder
> > 10.0.1.  Before that - we expect Sybase to be responding quickly to the
> most
> > serious of bugs and releasing patches as necessary in order to allow
> people
> > to continue testing and using the product.
> >
> > But - everybody has their own comfort factor for how much risk they are
> > willing to take.  You just have to go into it realistically and with
your
> > eyes open.
> >
> > Just my take on it....
> >
> > Tim.
> >
> > "EChapa" <evita.chapa_NOSPAM@randolph.afDOTmil> wrote in message
> > news:41b751de$1@forums-2-dub...
> > > He does have a point, as far as our group goes..
> > >  > For every small problems [and there are lots of], you are being
told
> to
> > > > > install a patch that was released on such and such date [and make
> sure
> > > you
> > > > > use it only for a very specific problem otherwise that might break
> > > something
> > > > > else].
> > >
> > > We have PB10 but since I've seen it released, I've started seeing
posts
> on
> > > PB10 for things broken that we use.  Just like other developers can
> relate
> > > to, our app is in production for more than 50 users (with the next
major
> > > release to go to over 100) and for right now I can't consider
switching
> 5
> > > developers over to PB10.  Regression testing isn't the problem - its
> those
> > > things that may be broken that I may not find out until later.
> > >
> > > I'm sure y'all know the saying "If I ain't broke, why upgrade?"
> > >
> > > Also, it may be just me since we are developing a Client-Server server
> > app.
> > > The push by Sybase seems to be toward .Net.  I know they need to stay
on
> > top
> > > of competition, but don't forget about those clients you already have.
> > >
> > > My 4 cents (adjusted for inflation :) )
> > >
> > > -- 
> > > Evita Chapa
> > > Senior Systems Analyst II
> > > Command Technologies, Inc.
> > >
> > > "Rahul Jain" <rahul.jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
> > > news:41b73c8a$1@forums-2-dub...
> > > > Speak for yourself Mr. PB Dev. I (and I believe most of the PB
> developer
> > > > community) think PB is the best in it's class and relatively much
more
> > > > stable.
> > > >
> > > > Rahul Jain
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > PB Dev wrote:
> > > > > How will they be able to create the Buzz!!  do they have a product
> > that
> > > is
> > > > > working consistently?  I will have to think before I can answer to
> > that
> > > > > question.
> > > > >
> > > > > For every small problems [and there are lots of], you are being
told
> > to
> > > > > install a patch that was released on such and such date [and make
> sure
> > > you
> > > > > use it only for a very specific problem otherwise that might break
> > > something
> > > > > else].  How many of us are there in the developer community that
> > believe
> > > PB
> > > > > is a very stable product?  not many there too.  So how can Sybase
> crea
> > te
> > > a
> > > > > buzz when the developer community that it is supporting itself is
> not
> > > > > convinced about the product.
> > > > >    A good strategy would be to hire few developers and make the
> > product
> > > more
> > > > > stable so that the developers are not asked to check updates every
> > > sunday to
> > > > > see if Sybase has fixed something that is not working in their
> setup.
> > > > > Sybase's focus has been to incorporate new features in
PowerBuilder
> > > leaving
> > > > > behind all the issues to be later taken care by their weekly
fixes.
> > > This is
> > > > > not the solution to the problem.   I have not seen a stable
product
> > > since
> > > > > 6.5 was released.  Everyone knows about what happened when 7.0 was
> > > > > introduced.  Some said 8.0 is more stable, then heard, 9.0 is more
> > > stable
> > > > > than 8.0, same story continues with 10.0 release.  But still there
> are
> > > lots
> > > > > of issues with every release.  Not many companies [I would guess
> about
> > > 70%]
> > > > > are using all the new features in PB that Sybase is wasting all
its
> > > > > resources on.
> > > > >
> > > > >    I would suggest, better strategy would be to create a very
stable
> > > product
> > > > > and then keep on adding features without compromising on the base
> > > product
> > > > > [and believe me 70% of the applications are still client server,
> > please
> > > > > don't loose them SYBASE!!!!].
> > > > >
> > > > > GIVE US A GOOD STABLE BASE PRODUCT FIRST!!!!.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Rahul Jain" <rahul.jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:41b7275e$1@forums-2-dub...
> > > > >
> > > > >>Good idea Daniel.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>PB is Back! buzz could work too... Sybase like most of us thinks
PB
> > was
> > > > >>never "dead", but outside of PB-world, most of the ppl think it's
> > dead.
> > > > >>So how do you create a buzz for something that's dead? Tell them
> it's
> > > > >>baaaack! :)
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Just my 2 cents.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Rahul Jain
> > > > >>
> > > > >>P.S: I would contribute towards a full page NYT ad for PB :).
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Daniel Coppersmith wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>I think it's about creating a buzz in the marketplace somehow.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>Has Sybase considered "giving away" a few installs to get
showcases
> > out
> > > > >>>there?  Find some high profile customer who is willing to be a
show
> > > pony
> > > > >
> > > > > in
> > > > >
> > > > >>>exchange for having Sybase come in and write them a slick PB /
EAS
> /
> > > > >>>Pocketbuilder app....  make it look cool, then parade it around.
> It
> > > > >
> > > > > would
> > > > >
> > > > >>>be an investment, but it could pay off for marketing folks who
can
> > say,
> > > > >>>"come see what our tools did for this big company!"
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>Right now, there's no buzz.  It's all .NOT.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>My 2 cents adjusted for inflation.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>"PB Dev" <sybase> wrote in message
news:41b62965$1@forums-2-dub...
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>I believe what is happening is, those of us who have been with
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>PowerBuilder
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>for many many years, will continue to believe that there will
soon
> > > come
> > > > >
> > > > > a
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>day when people will start moving towards PowerBuilder.
> > > > >>>>There is also another reason for the above thought, that about
75%
> > of
> > > > >
> > > > > them
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>[I mean professionals with more than 5-6-7-8 years of
experience]
> > > won't
> > > > >
> > > > > be
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>able to change their profession because companies are looking
for
> a
> > > very
> > > > >>>>diversed qualification [not only PB  but, .NET or JAVA or
> something
> > > > >
> > > > > else,
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>which not many of the PB professionals have].
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>Very soon it will become like a dead end.  Either leave the IT
or
> > live
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>with
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>PB [or become a Manager].
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>Not a very optimistic opinion but this is just a thought
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>"Terry Voth" <sequel@techno-kitten.com> wrote in message
> > > > >>>>news:m44cr0tt5ql77m2efbdiqk1fi9m98tda5f@4ax.com...
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>>Optimist!! <BEG>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>On 7 Dec 2004 10:40:17 -0800, azaleski@anzasoft.pl wrote:
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>People will
> > > > >>>>>>stop whining.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>*********************************
> > > > >>>>>Click once a day to give 100,000 books to children in need by
the
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>holidays
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>>http://www.theliteracysite.com
> > > > >>>>>*********************************
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>Sequel's Sandbox: http://www.techno-kitten.com
> > > > >>>>>Home of PBL Peeper, a free PowerBuilder Developer's Toolkit.
> > > > >>>>>Version 2.2.06 now available at the Sandbox
> > > > >>>>>See the PB Troubleshooting Guide at the Sandbox
> > > > >>>>>^ ^
> > > > >>>>>o o
> > > > >>>>>=*=
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Anybody can talk about the deployed version because somehow we will find a
version that is more stable than the other ones out there and then deploy.
We also have application in production that is pretty stable and we too
never get a call that relate to sybase problem.  It is so easy to write code
in PB that if there is some problem with a particular feature, we will
somehow find some other way of doing that thing.
The question is, whether the development version is stable or not and thats
where the problem is.  You write a piece of code and would expect it to run
in future releases [at least the basic functionality], but some times you
have issues with that too.  Well, eventually everything works in the end,
but not before frustrating the developers.



"Timothy Madsen" <timothy_madsen@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:41b85f01$1@forums-2-dub...
> I consider PB 9.0.1 build 6533 (which is a maintenance release) to be
pretty
> solid.  We are comfortable releasing this into critical production
> environments.  We do not get customers calling us up with issues - which
> turn out to be errors caused by Sybase related to the PB runtime.  Hence -
> this is how I can justify calling PB 9.0.1 build 6533 "pretty solid".
>
> Are there issues with build 6533?  Sure - but I consider them minor in the
> grand scheme of things.  I don't expect perfection.  Obviously we don't
> exercise all aspects of PowerBuilder.  Other people may be running into
> serious issues - where perhaps we just don't touch that portion of
> PowerBuilder in a particular manner.
>
> Before we migrated to PB 9.0.1 build 6533, we were on PB 8.0.3 build 9704
> (which is also a maintenance release).  We also considered this solid -
and
> never had a customer call in with a production issue which turned out to
be
> a Sybase problem with PowerBuilder.  Again - this (for us) equates to
solid.
>
> Before this - we were on PB 7.0.3 build 10009.  Same story.
>
> As for patches - Sybase is no different that anybody else.  If we are
going
> to use a Sybase patch (or Oracle or IBM) - it goes through extensive
> regression testing before it goes into production.  And then it goes into
> production first at our controlled facility for a period of time - before
it
> starts going to external customers.  Which means we don't often upgrade
our
> version of PowerBuilder - the amount of work which goes into QA regression
> is fairly high.  And we have a fairly firm policy of not using Sybase EBFs
> for customer releases - rather we prefer to stay with the Sybase
maintenance
> releases.  We feel more comfortable with these for two reasons:
> 1)  We feel they get a higher level of QA from Sybase
> 2)  We feel that more PowerBuilder developers are using the maintenance
> releases - hence more "real world" testing - outside of Sybase.
> 3)  Sybase tells us that if we are on an EBF - we are supposed to stop
using
> the EBF and start using the MR once the MR is released.
>
> Tim.
>
> "Philip Salgannik" <philemaxNOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:41b7aa1b$1@forums-2-dub...
> > And we are in production on PB9 for quite a while. Solid as a rock :-)
> >
> >
> > pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-))
> > Philip Salgannik
> >
> > "Paul Horan[TeamSybase]" <paulhATvcisolutionsDOTcom> wrote in message
> > news:41b773e1$1@forums-1-dub...
> > > "PB Dev" <sybase> wrote in message news:41b76c6f$1@forums-2-dub...
> > >> Tim as you pointed out,
> > >>   Oracle 9 had lots of problem in the beginning but was fairly stable
> > >> after
> > >> 9.2 or whatever that is.
> > >>   The point is, after couple of releases, the product do become more
> > >> stable.  Same cannot be said about PB.  You install a patch for a
> > >> problem,
> > >> and that might break something else in your application and the story
> > >> continues.  And this is not for one or two versions, we have been
> seeing
> > >> this since PB 7 was released and that was in 2000 [or may be before
> that]
> > >> if
> > >> I am not wrong.  4 years is pretty long time.  You don't just add new
> > >> features but continue to build features on a strong base.  That is
what
> I
> > >> was trying to say.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > Your experience...  Not mine.  We've actually been in production on
> P7.0.4
> > > for quite some time.  Very stable for us.
> > >
> > > -- 
> > > Paul Horan[TeamSybase]
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Talking about Oracle bugs, I have been living with them and there were so
many arguments i have over metalink.
9.2 Stable ? I really doubt it.
9.2.0.1 - import/export failed on Composite Partition.
9.2.0.1 - Allows different blocksize to set when the recovery doesnt
supported it.
9.2.0.3 - Breaks Java Execution codes.
9.2.0.3 - Optimization breaks. (This is the worst)
9.2.0.3 - XML Processing Bugs.
9.2.0.4 - Import/Export problems solved in 9.2.0.3 comes back again.
....
....
....
10.1.2.- Changing the base IP renders all components failed especially
Enterprise Manager
and go on... go on.. go on.... Who said VB.NET stable? Anyone ?

Oracle Stable? I donn't really think so.... PB is not too bad anyway
considering .0 release.
This is the practicality of software world and not PB problems..


"Timothy Madsen" <timothy_madsen@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:41b76a45$1@forums-2-dub...
> PB10 is still pretty new.  Most people who have been using PowerBuilder
for
> many years realize that they are taking a considerable risk by putting a
new
> version of PowerBuilder into production.  You do this - you take your
> chances.  Live with it - or don't go to production so quick.
>
> BUT - this is nothing negative about Sybase.
>
> This is REALITY for the software world in general.
>
> Take Oracle for example.  The people who immediately grabbed Oracle 9
(first
> release) and went to production with it - for sure quite a few had serious
> problems.  Once again - you take the first release and go right into
> production - well - you take your chances.  It was not until Oracle 9.2
that
> the Oracle community in general decided it was fairly "stable".
>
> Take Microsoft for example.  Look at initial releases of Operating
Systems.
> Windows NT 4.0 (with no service packs).  Windows 2000 (with no service
> packs).
>
> We understand that no company (Sybase, Oracle, Microsoft, whoever) can
test
> all ways their product can be used - and still release the product in a
> timely fashion so as to not completely loose their market.  When the
product
> is released - that means it has passed internal testing and perhaps a
small
> beta test.  Now it hits the general population and another level of
> "testing" begins.  And hence a new level of "patches" (ebfs, service
packs,
> updates, whatever) also begin.
>
> We expect a significant level of stability to be present in PowerBuilder
> 10.0.1.  Before that - we expect Sybase to be responding quickly to the
most
> serious of bugs and releasing patches as necessary in order to allow
people
> to continue testing and using the product.
>
> But - everybody has their own comfort factor for how much risk they are
> willing to take.  You just have to go into it realistically and with your
> eyes open.
>
> Just my take on it....
>
> Tim.
>
> "EChapa" <evita.chapa_NOSPAM@randolph.afDOTmil> wrote in message
> news:41b751de$1@forums-2-dub...
> > He does have a point, as far as our group goes..
> >  > For every small problems [and there are lots of], you are being told
to
> > > > install a patch that was released on such and such date [and make
sure
> > you
> > > > use it only for a very specific problem otherwise that might break
> > something
> > > > else].
> >
> > We have PB10 but since I've seen it released, I've started seeing posts
on
> > PB10 for things broken that we use.  Just like other developers can
relate
> > to, our app is in production for more than 50 users (with the next major
> > release to go to over 100) and for right now I can't consider switching
5
> > developers over to PB10.  Regression testing isn't the problem - its
those
> > things that may be broken that I may not find out until later.
> >
> > I'm sure y'all know the saying "If I ain't broke, why upgrade?"
> >
> > Also, it may be just me since we are developing a Client-Server server
> app.
> > The push by Sybase seems to be toward .Net.  I know they need to stay on
> top
> > of competition, but don't forget about those clients you already have.
> >
> > My 4 cents (adjusted for inflation :) )
> >
> > -- 
> > Evita Chapa
> > Senior Systems Analyst II
> > Command Technologies, Inc.
> >
> > "Rahul Jain" <rahul.jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
> > news:41b73c8a$1@forums-2-dub...
> > > Speak for yourself Mr. PB Dev. I (and I believe most of the PB
developer
> > > community) think PB is the best in it's class and relatively much more
> > > stable.
> > >
> > > Rahul Jain
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > PB Dev wrote:
> > > > How will they be able to create the Buzz!!  do they have a product
> that
> > is
> > > > working consistently?  I will have to think before I can answer to
> that
> > > > question.
> > > >
> > > > For every small problems [and there are lots of], you are being told
> to
> > > > install a patch that was released on such and such date [and make
sure
> > you
> > > > use it only for a very specific problem otherwise that might break
> > something
> > > > else].  How many of us are there in the developer community that
> believe
> > PB
> > > > is a very stable product?  not many there too.  So how can Sybase
crea
> te
> > a
> > > > buzz when the developer community that it is supporting itself is
not
> > > > convinced about the product.
> > > >    A good strategy would be to hire few developers and make the
> product
> > more
> > > > stable so that the developers are not asked to check updates every
> > sunday to
> > > > see if Sybase has fixed something that is not working in their
setup.
> > > > Sybase's focus has been to incorporate new features in PowerBuilder
> > leaving
> > > > behind all the issues to be later taken care by their weekly fixes.
> > This is
> > > > not the solution to the problem.   I have not seen a stable product
> > since
> > > > 6.5 was released.  Everyone knows about what happened when 7.0 was
> > > > introduced.  Some said 8.0 is more stable, then heard, 9.0 is more
> > stable
> > > > than 8.0, same story continues with 10.0 release.  But still there
are
> > lots
> > > > of issues with every release.  Not many companies [I would guess
about
> > 70%]
> > > > are using all the new features in PB that Sybase is wasting all its
> > > > resources on.
> > > >
> > > >    I would suggest, better strategy would be to create a very stable
> > product
> > > > and then keep on adding features without compromising on the base
> > product
> > > > [and believe me 70% of the applications are still client server,
> please
> > > > don't loose them SYBASE!!!!].
> > > >
> > > > GIVE US A GOOD STABLE BASE PRODUCT FIRST!!!!.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Rahul Jain" <rahul.jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:41b7275e$1@forums-2-dub...
> > > >
> > > >>Good idea Daniel.
> > > >>
> > > >>PB is Back! buzz could work too... Sybase like most of us thinks PB
> was
> > > >>never "dead", but outside of PB-world, most of the ppl think it's
> dead.
> > > >>So how do you create a buzz for something that's dead? Tell them
it's
> > > >>baaaack! :)
> > > >>
> > > >>Just my 2 cents.
> > > >>
> > > >>Rahul Jain
> > > >>
> > > >>P.S: I would contribute towards a full page NYT ad for PB :).
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>Daniel Coppersmith wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>>I think it's about creating a buzz in the marketplace somehow.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Has Sybase considered "giving away" a few installs to get showcases
> out
> > > >>>there?  Find some high profile customer who is willing to be a show
> > pony
> > > >
> > > > in
> > > >
> > > >>>exchange for having Sybase come in and write them a slick PB / EAS
/
> > > >>>Pocketbuilder app....  make it look cool, then parade it around.
It
> > > >
> > > > would
> > > >
> > > >>>be an investment, but it could pay off for marketing folks who can
> say,
> > > >>>"come see what our tools did for this big company!"
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Right now, there's no buzz.  It's all .NOT.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>My 2 cents adjusted for inflation.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>"PB Dev" <sybase> wrote in message news:41b62965$1@forums-2-dub...
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>I believe what is happening is, those of us who have been with
> > > >>>
> > > >>>PowerBuilder
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>for many many years, will continue to believe that there will soon
> > come
> > > >
> > > > a
> > > >
> > > >>>>day when people will start moving towards PowerBuilder.
> > > >>>>There is also another reason for the above thought, that about 75%
> of
> > > >
> > > > them
> > > >
> > > >>>>[I mean professionals with more than 5-6-7-8 years of experience]
> > won't
> > > >
> > > > be
> > > >
> > > >>>>able to change their profession because companies are looking for
a
> > very
> > > >>>>diversed qualification [not only PB  but, .NET or JAVA or
something
> > > >
> > > > else,
> > > >
> > > >>>>which not many of the PB professionals have].
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>Very soon it will become like a dead end.  Either leave the IT or
> live
> > > >>>
> > > >>>with
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>PB [or become a Manager].
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>Not a very optimistic opinion but this is just a thought
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>"Terry Voth" <sequel@techno-kitten.com> wrote in message
> > > >>>>news:m44cr0tt5ql77m2efbdiqk1fi9m98tda5f@4ax.com...
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>>Optimist!! <BEG>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>On 7 Dec 2004 10:40:17 -0800, azaleski@anzasoft.pl wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>People will
> > > >>>>>>stop whining.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>*********************************
> > > >>>>>Click once a day to give 100,000 books to children in need by the
> > > >>>
> > > >>>holidays
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>>http://www.theliteracysite.com
> > > >>>>>*********************************
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>Sequel's Sandbox: http://www.techno-kitten.com
> > > >>>>>Home of PBL Peeper, a free PowerBuilder Developer's Toolkit.
> > > >>>>>Version 2.2.06 now available at the Sandbox
> > > >>>>>See the PB Troubleshooting Guide at the Sandbox
> > > >>>>>^ ^
> > > >>>>>o o
> > > >>>>>=*=
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Some ways you can help PowerBuilder's future are to spread the word.  If you 
have a local University or Community College with a CIS department nearby, 
call up the department (or their local ACM chapter if they have one) and 
volunteer to come out and give a presentation on the magic of PB.  Most 
students with some amount of database experience will have their minds blown 
when they see the power of the DataWindow.

PocketBuilder is far superior to the competing products out there, so give 
them a demo of RAD handheld development.

DataWindow.Net is out, most of the schools are jumping on the .Net 
bandwagon.  Show them how the power of the DataWindow can fit into their 
..Net world and make things so much easier.

Volunteer your time to mentor a group or student project using PowerBuilder, 
PocketBuilder, DW.Net, EAServer, etc.

It is great experience and a win-win for everyone involved, and you will be 
passing the torch to the next generation of programmers.

Doug Porter
DailyAccess Corporation



<KILLER> wrote in message news:41b41bb2.67db.1681692777@sybase.com...
> i am in Powerbuilder for past 4 Years.....currently i am in
> india.
>
> But my projects are in my last 4 years almost
> maintenance & migration to advanced techniques...almost
> zero development and  the sad news is ,powerbuilder
> developers  are very less when compared to advance
> techniques...
>
> u know the PB versions are also coming yearly once &
> introducing new concepts also almost not useful(i discussed
> with lot of  PB developers almost they are not using the
> advance
> techniques)
>
> so everybody is going slowly out of PB technology...
> In india last few years Pb usage is reduced to
> 60-65%..servay says.
>
> The sad thing is Sybase is also not giving that much
> important  as MS is giving for VB(Vb supports very easily
> for
> .Net,com,MTS,ASP,JSP Etc)...
>
> But in PB,now only started giving support to
> .Net(Initially for Datawindow only) ....
>
> Finally ,wht is the future for PB developers...?
> I guess 90% of PB life is  going on only due to
> maintenance in india......so PB developers are slowly
> migrating to advance technologies.......
>
> If Sybase is not giving the proper & fixed solution then
> Slowly PB will be out of market..now almost 60% out of
> market..
>
> This mail is not voice of mine only....lot of Pb
> developers voice...
>
> Future ? 

Perfect! This is the right answer.

gzim

"Doug Porter" <doug_porterATdailyaccessDOTnospamDOTcom> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag news:41ba3ba1$1@forums-2-dub...
> Some ways you can help PowerBuilder's future are to spread the word.  If
you
> have a local University or Community College with a CIS department nearby,
> call up the department (or their local ACM chapter if they have one) and
> volunteer to come out and give a presentation on the magic of PB.  Most
> students with some amount of database experience will have their minds
blown
> when they see the power of the DataWindow.
>
> PocketBuilder is far superior to the competing products out there, so give
> them a demo of RAD handheld development.
>
> DataWindow.Net is out, most of the schools are jumping on the .Net
> bandwagon.  Show them how the power of the DataWindow can fit into their
> .Net world and make things so much easier.
>
> Volunteer your time to mentor a group or student project using
PowerBuilder,
> PocketBuilder, DW.Net, EAServer, etc.
>
> It is great experience and a win-win for everyone involved, and you will
be
> passing the torch to the next generation of programmers.
>
> Doug Porter
> DailyAccess Corporation
>
>
>
> <KILLER> wrote in message news:41b41bb2.67db.1681692777@sybase.com...
> > i am in Powerbuilder for past 4 Years.....currently i am in
> > india.
> >
> > But my projects are in my last 4 years almost
> > maintenance & migration to advanced techniques...almost
> > zero development and  the sad news is ,powerbuilder
> > developers  are very less when compared to advance
> > techniques...
> >
> > u know the PB versions are also coming yearly once &
> > introducing new concepts also almost not useful(i discussed
> > with lot of  PB developers almost they are not using the
> > advance
> > techniques)
> >
> > so everybody is going slowly out of PB technology...
> > In india last few years Pb usage is reduced to
> > 60-65%..servay says.
> >
> > The sad thing is Sybase is also not giving that much
> > important  as MS is giving for VB(Vb supports very easily
> > for
> > .Net,com,MTS,ASP,JSP Etc)...
> >
> > But in PB,now only started giving support to
> > .Net(Initially for Datawindow only) ....
> >
> > Finally ,wht is the future for PB developers...?
> > I guess 90% of PB life is  going on only due to
> > maintenance in india......so PB developers are slowly
> > migrating to advance technologies.......
> >
> > If Sybase is not giving the proper & fixed solution then
> > Slowly PB will be out of market..now almost 60% out of
> > market..
> >
> > This mail is not voice of mine only....lot of Pb
> > developers voice...
> >
> > Future ?
>
>

 Great idea! If we do this I think Sybase should arm us with free copies of
PB / PPB for all the students as well!!!!

"Doug Porter" <doug_porterATdailyaccessDOTnospamDOTcom> wrote in message
news:41ba3ba1$1@forums-2-dub...
> Some ways you can help PowerBuilder's future are to spread the word.  If
you
> have a local University or Community College with a CIS department nearby,
> call up the department (or their local ACM chapter if they have one) and
> volunteer to come out and give a presentation on the magic of PB.  Most
> students with some amount of database experience will have their minds
blown
> when they see the power of the DataWindow.
>
> PocketBuilder is far superior to the competing products out there, so give
> them a demo of RAD handheld development.
>
> DataWindow.Net is out, most of the schools are jumping on the .Net
> bandwagon.  Show them how the power of the DataWindow can fit into their
> .Net world and make things so much easier.
>
> Volunteer your time to mentor a group or student project using
PowerBuilder,
> PocketBuilder, DW.Net, EAServer, etc.
>
> It is great experience and a win-win for everyone involved, and you will
be
> passing the torch to the next generation of programmers.
>
> Doug Porter
> DailyAccess Corporation
>
>
>
> <KILLER> wrote in message news:41b41bb2.67db.1681692777@sybase.com...
> > i am in Powerbuilder for past 4 Years.....currently i am in
> > india.
> >
> > But my projects are in my last 4 years almost
> > maintenance & migration to advanced techniques...almost
> > zero development and  the sad news is ,powerbuilder
> > developers  are very less when compared to advance
> > techniques...
> >
> > u know the PB versions are also coming yearly once &
> > introducing new concepts also almost not useful(i discussed
> > with lot of  PB developers almost they are not using the
> > advance
> > techniques)
> >
> > so everybody is going slowly out of PB technology...
> > In india last few years Pb usage is reduced to
> > 60-65%..servay says.
> >
> > The sad thing is Sybase is also not giving that much
> > important  as MS is giving for VB(Vb supports very easily
> > for
> > .Net,com,MTS,ASP,JSP Etc)...
> >
> > But in PB,now only started giving support to
> > .Net(Initially for Datawindow only) ....
> >
> > Finally ,wht is the future for PB developers...?
> > I guess 90% of PB life is  going on only due to
> > maintenance in india......so PB developers are slowly
> > migrating to advance technologies.......
> >
> > If Sybase is not giving the proper & fixed solution then
> > Slowly PB will be out of market..now almost 60% out of
> > market..
> >
> > This mail is not voice of mine only....lot of Pb
> > developers voice...
> >
> > Future ?
>
>

http://crm.sybase.com/sybase/www/IPG/PB10EvalWebReg.jsp


Jonathan



"Chris Pollach" <PollachC@SCC-CSC.gc.ca> wrote in message 
news:41bd893c@forums-1-dub...
> Great idea! If we do this I think Sybase should arm us with free copies of
> PB / PPB for all the students as well!!!!
>
> "Doug Porter" <doug_porterATdailyaccessDOTnospamDOTcom> wrote in message
> news:41ba3ba1$1@forums-2-dub...
>> Some ways you can help PowerBuilder's future are to spread the word.  If
> you
>> have a local University or Community College with a CIS department nearby,
>> call up the department (or their local ACM chapter if they have one) and
>> volunteer to come out and give a presentation on the magic of PB.  Most
>> students with some amount of database experience will have their minds
> blown
>> when they see the power of the DataWindow.
>>
>> PocketBuilder is far superior to the competing products out there, so give
>> them a demo of RAD handheld development.
>>
>> DataWindow.Net is out, most of the schools are jumping on the .Net
>> bandwagon.  Show them how the power of the DataWindow can fit into their
>> .Net world and make things so much easier.
>>
>> Volunteer your time to mentor a group or student project using
> PowerBuilder,
>> PocketBuilder, DW.Net, EAServer, etc.
>>
>> It is great experience and a win-win for everyone involved, and you will
> be
>> passing the torch to the next generation of programmers.
>>
>> Doug Porter
>> DailyAccess Corporation
>>
>>
>>
>> <KILLER> wrote in message news:41b41bb2.67db.1681692777@sybase.com...
>> > i am in Powerbuilder for past 4 Years.....currently i am in
>> > india.
>> >
>> > But my projects are in my last 4 years almost
>> > maintenance & migration to advanced techniques...almost
>> > zero development and  the sad news is ,powerbuilder
>> > developers  are very less when compared to advance
>> > techniques...
>> >
>> > u know the PB versions are also coming yearly once &
>> > introducing new concepts also almost not useful(i discussed
>> > with lot of  PB developers almost they are not using the
>> > advance
>> > techniques)
>> >
>> > so everybody is going slowly out of PB technology...
>> > In india last few years Pb usage is reduced to
>> > 60-65%..servay says.
>> >
>> > The sad thing is Sybase is also not giving that much
>> > important  as MS is giving for VB(Vb supports very easily
>> > for
>> > .Net,com,MTS,ASP,JSP Etc)...
>> >
>> > But in PB,now only started giving support to
>> > .Net(Initially for Datawindow only) ....
>> >
>> > Finally ,wht is the future for PB developers...?
>> > I guess 90% of PB life is  going on only due to
>> > maintenance in india......so PB developers are slowly
>> > migrating to advance technologies.......
>> >
>> > If Sybase is not giving the proper & fixed solution then
>> > Slowly PB will be out of market..now almost 60% out of
>> > market..
>> >
>> > This mail is not voice of mine only....lot of Pb
>> > developers voice...
>> >
>> > Future ?
>>
>>
>
> 

On 13 Dec 2004 06:02:21 -0800, "Jonathan Baker [Sybase]"
<bakerj@sybase.com> wrote:

>http://crm.sybase.com/sybase/www/IPG/PB10EvalWebReg.jsp

....and 
http://www.programmersparadise.com/Publisher.pasp?txtPublisherID=S84&txtAcademic=Y

I dont give a rats ass about .net or jsp or XML.  I would
like PB11 to be as good for C/S now as PB6.5 was in its day.

> Nobody needs a blanket statement. PowerBuilder 11 can be
> the turning point then. I keep my fingers crossed PB 11
> will be as good in .NET as PB 6.5 is in client server.
> People will stop whining.
>
> > Since every application is unique we can't issue a
> > blanket statement that any application can be FULLY
> > converted to .NET.
> >
> > PowerBuilder 11 will have the ability to compile an
> > application to a .NET WinForm or a .NET Webform
> > application. An application should convert 100% to a
> > Winform application. Webform is trickier because of
> > unsupported features, scalability, etc.
> >
> > PowerBuilder 11 will be available in late 2005.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dave Fish
> > Sybase
> >
> > TeamSybase blogs: http://www.teamsybase.net/blogs
> >
> > DataWindow.NET code examples available on CodeXchange:
> > http://datawindownet.codexchange.sybase.com
> >
> > On 7 Dec 2004 03:18:48 -0800, azaleski@anzasoft.pl
> wrote: >
> > >
> > >Same question, same answer. I have a simpler question:
> > which >PB I can use to FULLY convert a PB 6.5 client
> > server project >to .NET, with better and cheaper
> > deployment _for_customers_ >than in VB?
> > >
> > >Issue of .NET conversion comes back like a boomerang
> > and >hits me from time to time recently. So which PB
> > version I >need to buy to be able to efficiently compete
> > with my VB >counterparts in .NET?
> >

Ok troll, you didn't have to quite put it that way.  Like I've said before,
it seems Web this and .Net seems to be so much of Sybase's emphasis on PB
that it makes one wonder about C/S future with PB.


-- 
Evita Chapa
Senior Systems Analyst II
Command Technologies, Inc.
<troll> wrote in message news:41bdfe1b.3633.1681692777@sybase.com...
> I dont give a rats ass about .net or jsp or XML.  I would
> like PB11 to be as good for C/S now as PB6.5 was in its day.
>
> > Nobody needs a blanket statement. PowerBuilder 11 can be
> > the turning point then. I keep my fingers crossed PB 11
> > will be as good in .NET as PB 6.5 is in client server.
> > People will stop whining.
> >
> > > Since every application is unique we can't issue a
> > > blanket statement that any application can be FULLY
> > > converted to .NET.
> > >
> > > PowerBuilder 11 will have the ability to compile an
> > > application to a .NET WinForm or a .NET Webform
> > > application. An application should convert 100% to a
> > > Winform application. Webform is trickier because of
> > > unsupported features, scalability, etc.
> > >
> > > PowerBuilder 11 will be available in late 2005.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Dave Fish
> > > Sybase
> > >
> > > TeamSybase blogs: http://www.teamsybase.net/blogs
> > >
> > > DataWindow.NET code examples available on CodeXchange:
> > > http://datawindownet.codexchange.sybase.com
> > >
> > > On 7 Dec 2004 03:18:48 -0800, azaleski@anzasoft.pl
> > wrote: >
> > > >
> > > >Same question, same answer. I have a simpler question:
> > > which >PB I can use to FULLY convert a PB 6.5 client
> > > server project >to .NET, with better and cheaper
> > > deployment _for_customers_ >than in VB?
> > > >
> > > >Issue of .NET conversion comes back like a boomerang
> > > and >hits me from time to time recently. So which PB
> > > version I >need to buy to be able to efficiently compete
> > > with my VB >counterparts in .NET?
> > >

Many analysts (Gartner, Giga) are telling their customers to stop
building client/server applications. Personally I think a lot of
organizations would be better off sticking with client/server vs.
building complex distributed applications (or lousy interface web
applications). 

PowerBuilder 11 will have a lot of UI improvements (mostly for Windows
GUI applications). As for the .NET emphasis, Microsoft sees it as the
wave of the future. Win32 will be obsolete someday and I for one am
happy to see Sybase being proactive in this area and getting
PowerBuilder technology ready to work in the .NET environment. 

Sybase

DataWindow .NET Webcast December 16, 2004:
www.customermining.com/Sybase/NETRegPage.html

TeamSybase blogs: http://www.teamsybase.net/blogs

PowerBuilder 10 is now available: www.sybase.com/powerbuilder

On 13 Dec 2004 13:22:10 -0800, "EChapa"
<evita.chapa_NOSPAM@randolph.afDOTmil> wrote:

>Ok troll, you didn't have to quite put it that way.  Like I've said before,
>it seems Web this and .Net seems to be so much of Sybase's emphasis on PB
>that it makes one wonder about C/S future with PB.
>
>
>-- 
>Evita Chapa
>Senior Systems Analyst II
>Command Technologies, Inc.
><troll> wrote in message news:41bdfe1b.3633.1681692777@sybase.com...
>> I dont give a rats ass about .net or jsp or XML.  I would
>> like PB11 to be as good for C/S now as PB6.5 was in its day.
>>
>> > Nobody needs a blanket statement. PowerBuilder 11 can be
>> > the turning point then. I keep my fingers crossed PB 11
>> > will be as good in .NET as PB 6.5 is in client server.
>> > People will stop whining.
>> >
>> > > Since every application is unique we can't issue a
>> > > blanket statement that any application can be FULLY
>> > > converted to .NET.
>> > >
>> > > PowerBuilder 11 will have the ability to compile an
>> > > application to a .NET WinForm or a .NET Webform
>> > > application. An application should convert 100% to a
>> > > Winform application. Webform is trickier because of
>> > > unsupported features, scalability, etc.
>> > >
>> > > PowerBuilder 11 will be available in late 2005.
>> > >
>> > > Regards,
>> > > Dave Fish
>> > > Sybase
>> > >
>> > > TeamSybase blogs: http://www.teamsybase.net/blogs
>> > >
>> > > DataWindow.NET code examples available on CodeXchange:
>> > > http://datawindownet.codexchange.sybase.com
>> > >
>> > > On 7 Dec 2004 03:18:48 -0800, azaleski@anzasoft.pl
>> > wrote: >
>> > > >
>> > > >Same question, same answer. I have a simpler question:
>> > > which >PB I can use to FULLY convert a PB 6.5 client
>> > > server project >to .NET, with better and cheaper
>> > > deployment _for_customers_ >than in VB?
>> > > >
>> > > >Issue of .NET conversion comes back like a boomerang
>> > > and >hits me from time to time recently. So which PB
>> > > version I >need to buy to be able to efficiently compete
>> > > with my VB >counterparts in .NET?
>> > >
>
>

Hey Dave,

I saw your presentations last week in Brussels and wanted to react on this
post concidering what I heard/saw last week. Btw, it was nice talking to
you!

I hope Sybase is getting ready to integrate the .NET framework into
Powerbuilder instead of what it is providing starting from Pb11. Because
nobody can *realy* use the feature of converting a Pb application into a
..NET forms application without being able to do anything with it besides
running the damn thing. Meaning that as long as you can't realy modify the
generated .NET application in Visual Studio for example, it isn't more than
a show element in Pb.
Complete integration of the .NET framework (even though I personaly don't
see any great additional advantages to what Pb is providing right now) could
make management stop deciding from moving to .NET because Pb then will
provide the use of the same framework. And that way .NET hasn't got anything
left that Pb wouldn't have. Catch my drift?

Furthermore, I hope that Sybase will put a little bit more extra effort in
it's TechSeries in the future. And keep in mind that the European public is
slightly different than the American audience. I'm sure you know what I
mean!

See you next year?!

Davy

PS : Tell Carson I'll take his bet and that I'm looking forward to drive his
Mercedes in three years from now <g>


"Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@_no_spam_sybase.com> wrote in message
news:41be19b2.163607785@forums.sybase.com...
> Many analysts (Gartner, Giga) are telling their customers to stop
> building client/server applications. Personally I think a lot of
> organizations would be better off sticking with client/server vs.
> building complex distributed applications (or lousy interface web
> applications).
>
> PowerBuilder 11 will have a lot of UI improvements (mostly for Windows
> GUI applications). As for the .NET emphasis, Microsoft sees it as the
> wave of the future. Win32 will be obsolete someday and I for one am
> happy to see Sybase being proactive in this area and getting
> PowerBuilder technology ready to work in the .NET environment.
>
> Sybase
>
> DataWindow .NET Webcast December 16, 2004:
> www.customermining.com/Sybase/NETRegPage.html
>
> TeamSybase blogs: http://www.teamsybase.net/blogs
>
> PowerBuilder 10 is now available: www.sybase.com/powerbuilder
>

Hi Davy,

It was nice to meet you in Brussels last week. Your points below are
valid. Due to the time constraints last week I didn't really get to
cover the whole PowerBuilder roadmap. After PowerBuilder 11 adds .NET
compilation we will deliver PowerBuilder 12 which will more fully
integrate PowerBuilder into the .NET environment and framework. Look
for more information about that next year. 

I hope you submitted an evaluation form at the TechSeries and made
suggestions on how they could improve it. I know I would have liked to
have had more time to cover PowerBuilder and DataWindow .NET. I hope
the audience felt the same way. :-)

As for Carson's car, I'm sure he will have another one by the time his
prediction is proven true or false. 

Regards,
Dave Fish
Sybase

DataWindow .NET Webcast December 16, 2004:
www.customermining.com/Sybase/NETRegPage.html

TeamSybase blogs: http://www.teamsybase.net/blogs

PowerBuilder 10 is now available: www.sybase.com/powerbuilder

On 14 Dec 2004 02:18:54 -0800, "Davy De Permentier"
<no_spam@my_e_mail> wrote:

>Hey Dave,
>
>I saw your presentations last week in Brussels and wanted to react on this
>post concidering what I heard/saw last week. Btw, it was nice talking to
>you!
>
>I hope Sybase is getting ready to integrate the .NET framework into
>Powerbuilder instead of what it is providing starting from Pb11. Because
>nobody can *realy* use the feature of converting a Pb application into a
>.NET forms application without being able to do anything with it besides
>running the damn thing. Meaning that as long as you can't realy modify the
>generated .NET application in Visual Studio for example, it isn't more than
>a show element in Pb.
>Complete integration of the .NET framework (even though I personaly don't
>see any great additional advantages to what Pb is providing right now) could
>make management stop deciding from moving to .NET because Pb then will
>provide the use of the same framework. And that way .NET hasn't got anything
>left that Pb wouldn't have. Catch my drift?
>
>Furthermore, I hope that Sybase will put a little bit more extra effort in
>it's TechSeries in the future. And keep in mind that the European public is
>slightly different than the American audience. I'm sure you know what I
>mean!
>
>See you next year?!
>
>Davy
>
>PS : Tell Carson I'll take his bet and that I'm looking forward to drive his
>Mercedes in three years from now <g>
>
>
>"Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@_no_spam_sybase.com> wrote in message
>news:41be19b2.163607785@forums.sybase.com...
>> Many analysts (Gartner, Giga) are telling their customers to stop
>> building client/server applications. Personally I think a lot of
>> organizations would be better off sticking with client/server vs.
>> building complex distributed applications (or lousy interface web
>> applications).
>>
>> PowerBuilder 11 will have a lot of UI improvements (mostly for Windows
>> GUI applications). As for the .NET emphasis, Microsoft sees it as the
>> wave of the future. Win32 will be obsolete someday and I for one am
>> happy to see Sybase being proactive in this area and getting
>> PowerBuilder technology ready to work in the .NET environment.
>>
>> Sybase
>>
>> DataWindow .NET Webcast December 16, 2004:
>> www.customermining.com/Sybase/NETRegPage.html
>>
>> TeamSybase blogs: http://www.teamsybase.net/blogs
>>
>> PowerBuilder 10 is now available: www.sybase.com/powerbuilder
>>
>
>

Dave,

Yes I submitted the evaluation form, but since they provided only two lines
on the paper for comments there wasn't a lot of space to fill in anything.
Do you know where I might submit any ideas regarding the TechSeries and
reach someone who realy cares about it? Or can you pass them on if I mailed
any suggestions to you?

And don't worry, the audience wants to see you back next year :-)

Thanks,
Davy


"Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@_no_spam_sybase.com> wrote in message
news:41bf12df.55925807@forums.sybase.com...
> Hi Davy,
>
> It was nice to meet you in Brussels last week. Your points below are
> valid. Due to the time constraints last week I didn't really get to
> cover the whole PowerBuilder roadmap. After PowerBuilder 11 adds .NET
> compilation we will deliver PowerBuilder 12 which will more fully
> integrate PowerBuilder into the .NET environment and framework. Look
> for more information about that next year.
>
> I hope you submitted an evaluation form at the TechSeries and made
> suggestions on how they could improve it. I know I would have liked to
> have had more time to cover PowerBuilder and DataWindow .NET. I hope
> the audience felt the same way. :-)
>
> As for Carson's car, I'm sure he will have another one by the time his
> prediction is proven true or false.
>
> Regards,
> Dave Fish
> Sybase
>
> DataWindow .NET Webcast December 16, 2004:
> www.customermining.com/Sybase/NETRegPage.html
>
> TeamSybase blogs: http://www.teamsybase.net/blogs
>
> PowerBuilder 10 is now available: www.sybase.com/powerbuilder
>
> On 14 Dec 2004 02:18:54 -0800, "Davy De Permentier"
> <no_spam@my_e_mail> wrote:
>
> >Hey Dave,
> >
> >I saw your presentations last week in Brussels and wanted to react on
this
> >post concidering what I heard/saw last week. Btw, it was nice talking to
> >you!
> >
> >I hope Sybase is getting ready to integrate the .NET framework into
> >Powerbuilder instead of what it is providing starting from Pb11. Because
> >nobody can *realy* use the feature of converting a Pb application into a
> >.NET forms application without being able to do anything with it besides
> >running the damn thing. Meaning that as long as you can't realy modify
the
> >generated .NET application in Visual Studio for example, it isn't more
than
> >a show element in Pb.
> >Complete integration of the .NET framework (even though I personaly don't
> >see any great additional advantages to what Pb is providing right now)
could
> >make management stop deciding from moving to .NET because Pb then will
> >provide the use of the same framework. And that way .NET hasn't got
anything
> >left that Pb wouldn't have. Catch my drift?
> >
> >Furthermore, I hope that Sybase will put a little bit more extra effort
in
> >it's TechSeries in the future. And keep in mind that the European public
is
> >slightly different than the American audience. I'm sure you know what I
> >mean!
> >
> >See you next year?!
> >
> >Davy
> >
> >PS : Tell Carson I'll take his bet and that I'm looking forward to drive
his
> >Mercedes in three years from now <g>
> >
> >
> >"Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@_no_spam_sybase.com> wrote in message
> >news:41be19b2.163607785@forums.sybase.com...
> >> Many analysts (Gartner, Giga) are telling their customers to stop
> >> building client/server applications. Personally I think a lot of
> >> organizations would be better off sticking with client/server vs.
> >> building complex distributed applications (or lousy interface web
> >> applications).
> >>
> >> PowerBuilder 11 will have a lot of UI improvements (mostly for Windows
> >> GUI applications). As for the .NET emphasis, Microsoft sees it as the
> >> wave of the future. Win32 will be obsolete someday and I for one am
> >> happy to see Sybase being proactive in this area and getting
> >> PowerBuilder technology ready to work in the .NET environment.
> >>
> >> Sybase
> >>
> >> DataWindow .NET Webcast December 16, 2004:
> >> www.customermining.com/Sybase/NETRegPage.html
> >>
> >> TeamSybase blogs: http://www.teamsybase.net/blogs
> >>
> >> PowerBuilder 10 is now available: www.sybase.com/powerbuilder
> >>
> >
> >
>

Hi Davy,

You can email Greta Straetmans at gstraetm@sybase.com with your
comments and suggestions. I know she would appreciate hearing from
you. Please also copy me on your email to her (dfish@sybase.com). 

Regards,
Dave Fish
Sybase

DataWindow .NET Webcast December 16, 2004:
www.customermining.com/Sybase/NETRegPage.html

TeamSybase blogs: http://www.teamsybase.net/blogs

PowerBuilder 10 is now available: www.sybase.com/powerbuilder

On 15 Dec 2004 03:39:44 -0800, "Davy De Permentier"
<no_spam@my_e_mail> wrote:

>Dave,
>
>Yes I submitted the evaluation form, but since they provided only two lines
>on the paper for comments there wasn't a lot of space to fill in anything.
>Do you know where I might submit any ideas regarding the TechSeries and
>reach someone who realy cares about it? Or can you pass them on if I mailed
>any suggestions to you?
>
>And don't worry, the audience wants to see you back next year :-)
>
>Thanks,
>Davy
>
>
>"Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@_no_spam_sybase.com> wrote in message
>news:41bf12df.55925807@forums.sybase.com...
>> Hi Davy,
>>
>> It was nice to meet you in Brussels last week. Your points below are
>> valid. Due to the time constraints last week I didn't really get to
>> cover the whole PowerBuilder roadmap. After PowerBuilder 11 adds .NET
>> compilation we will deliver PowerBuilder 12 which will more fully
>> integrate PowerBuilder into the .NET environment and framework. Look
>> for more information about that next year.
>>
>> I hope you submitted an evaluation form at the TechSeries and made
>> suggestions on how they could improve it. I know I would have liked to
>> have had more time to cover PowerBuilder and DataWindow .NET. I hope
>> the audience felt the same way. :-)
>>
>> As for Carson's car, I'm sure he will have another one by the time his
>> prediction is proven true or false.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dave Fish
>> Sybase
>>
>> DataWindow .NET Webcast December 16, 2004:
>> www.customermining.com/Sybase/NETRegPage.html
>>
>> TeamSybase blogs: http://www.teamsybase.net/blogs
>>
>> PowerBuilder 10 is now available: www.sybase.com/powerbuilder
>>
>> On 14 Dec 2004 02:18:54 -0800, "Davy De Permentier"
>> <no_spam@my_e_mail> wrote:
>>
>> >Hey Dave,
>> >
>> >I saw your presentations last week in Brussels and wanted to react on
>this
>> >post concidering what I heard/saw last week. Btw, it was nice talking to
>> >you!
>> >
>> >I hope Sybase is getting ready to integrate the .NET framework into
>> >Powerbuilder instead of what it is providing starting from Pb11. Because
>> >nobody can *realy* use the feature of converting a Pb application into a
>> >.NET forms application without being able to do anything with it besides
>> >running the damn thing. Meaning that as long as you can't realy modify
>the
>> >generated .NET application in Visual Studio for example, it isn't more
>than
>> >a show element in Pb.
>> >Complete integration of the .NET framework (even though I personaly don't
>> >see any great additional advantages to what Pb is providing right now)
>could
>> >make management stop deciding from moving to .NET because Pb then will
>> >provide the use of the same framework. And that way .NET hasn't got
>anything
>> >left that Pb wouldn't have. Catch my drift?
>> >
>> >Furthermore, I hope that Sybase will put a little bit more extra effort
>in
>> >it's TechSeries in the future. And keep in mind that the European public
>is
>> >slightly different than the American audience. I'm sure you know what I
>> >mean!
>> >
>> >See you next year?!
>> >
>> >Davy
>> >
>> >PS : Tell Carson I'll take his bet and that I'm looking forward to drive
>his
>> >Mercedes in three years from now <g>
>> >
>> >
>> >"Dave Fish [Team Sybase]" <dfish@_no_spam_sybase.com> wrote in message
>> >news:41be19b2.163607785@forums.sybase.com...
>> >> Many analysts (Gartner, Giga) are telling their customers to stop
>> >> building client/server applications. Personally I think a lot of
>> >> organizations would be better off sticking with client/server vs.
>> >> building complex distributed applications (or lousy interface web
>> >> applications).
>> >>
>> >> PowerBuilder 11 will have a lot of UI improvements (mostly for Windows
>> >> GUI applications). As for the .NET emphasis, Microsoft sees it as the
>> >> wave of the future. Win32 will be obsolete someday and I for one am
>> >> happy to see Sybase being proactive in this area and getting
>> >> PowerBuilder technology ready to work in the .NET environment.
>> >>
>> >> Sybase
>> >>
>> >> DataWindow .NET Webcast December 16, 2004:
>> >> www.customermining.com/Sybase/NETRegPage.html
>> >>
>> >> TeamSybase blogs: http://www.teamsybase.net/blogs
>> >>
>> >> PowerBuilder 10 is now available: www.sybase.com/powerbuilder
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>

I'd like PB to support these OO technologies:

1. in the user define object , support getXxx() and setXxx() method for user
define properties (as delphi,C# do).
2. support overload constructor event so that we can new an object with
initial parameters
3. in some project with many complex calculation operations, i'd like to use
operator overload

Request #2 is planned for PowerBuilder 11. 

Regards,
Dave Fish
Sybase

TeamSybase blogs: http://www.teamsybase.net/blogs

PowerBuilder 10 is now available: www.sybase.com/powerbuilder

On 23 Dec 2004 09:07:36 -0800, "james" <hobby3000@163.com> wrote:

>I'd like PB to support these OO technologies:
>
>1. in the user define object , support getXxx() and setXxx() method for user
>define properties (as delphi,C# do).
>2. support overload constructor event so that we can new an object with
>initial parameters
>3. in some project with many complex calculation operations, i'd like to use
>operator overload
>
>

On 23 Dec 2004 09:07:36 -0800, "james" <hobby3000@163.com> wrote:

>I'd like PB to support these OO technologies:
>
>1. in the user define object , support getXxx() and setXxx() method for user
>define properties (as delphi,C# do).

That would be cool.

>2. support overload constructor event so that we can new an object with
>initial parameters

That's planned.

>3. in some project with many complex calculation operations, i'd like to use
>operator overload

Oh, please don't!  You realize that C# doesn't allow this either?



Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]
http://www.teamsybase.com

TeamSybase blogs:
http://www.teamsybase.net/blogs

Two 3rd party books on developing with PowerBuilder
http://www.pb9books.com?source=newsgroups

Need code sample?  Check out CodeXchange:
http://www.codexchange.sybase.com

Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words. - Francis of Assisi
http://www.needhim.org

---------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:

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*not* receive a reply.  Messages posted through Google never reach the
Sybase newsgroup server, so we don't see them in order to respond to
them.  You should post your question using a standard newsgroup reader 
or the web based newsreaders at my.sybase.com or www.pfcguide.com.  
Google is great for searching the Sybase newsgroups, but you can't post
to them from there.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER:

This newsgroup message is only intended for the recipient. Given that it
is a posting to a public newsgroup, that means if you can read this
message then you are the recipient.  This message may contain information
that is confidential and protected from disclosure. And then again, 
it may not.

Given that TeamSybase members are not employees of Sybase, the contents 
of this message do not necessarily represent the views or policies of 
Sybase.  Given that TeamSybase is a diverse group of users of Sybase
products, the contents of this message do not necessarily represent the 
views of a significant number of the members of TeamSybase.  Given that the
author has multiple personalities and hears voices in his head, the contents 
of this message do not necessarily represent his own views.

IMHO, #1 could easily be hand written and might cause conflicts with
variable access level. How about a wizard to create getter/setter methods,
from an RMB on the instance variable declarations?
#3 violates the first principle of production grade coding - it must be
readable. Just think Polish Postfix (anybody else remember those old HP
calculators?) and write functions : complex1 = plus(complex2, complex3).

"Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com>
wrote in message news:dg1ns05acajln2h1r8lbglk2nkctmggciv@4ax.com...
> On 23 Dec 2004 09:07:36 -0800, "james" <hobby3000@163.com> wrote:
>
> >I'd like PB to support these OO technologies:
> >
> >1. in the user define object , support getXxx() and setXxx() method for
user
> >define properties (as delphi,C# do).
>
> That would be cool.
>
> >2. support overload constructor event so that we can new an object with
> >initial parameters
>
> That's planned.
>
> >3. in some project with many complex calculation operations, i'd like to
use
> >operator overload
>
> Oh, please don't!  You realize that C# doesn't allow this either?
>
>
>
> Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]
> http://www.teamsybase.com
>
> TeamSybase blogs:
> http://www.teamsybase.net/blogs
>
> Two 3rd party books on developing with PowerBuilder
> http://www.pb9books.com?source=newsgroups
>
> Need code sample?  Check out CodeXchange:
> http://www.codexchange.sybase.com
>
> Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words. - Francis of
Assisi
> http://www.needhim.org
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:
>
> If you are using Google to post messages to the newsgroups, you will
> *not* receive a reply.  Messages posted through Google never reach the
> Sybase newsgroup server, so we don't see them in order to respond to
> them.  You should post your question using a standard newsgroup reader
> or the web based newsreaders at my.sybase.com or www.pfcguide.com.
> Google is great for searching the Sybase newsgroups, but you can't post
> to them from there.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCLAIMER:
>
> This newsgroup message is only intended for the recipient. Given that it
> is a posting to a public newsgroup, that means if you can read this
> message then you are the recipient.  This message may contain information
> that is confidential and protected from disclosure. And then again,
> it may not.
>
> Given that TeamSybase members are not employees of Sybase, the contents
> of this message do not necessarily represent the views or policies of
> Sybase.  Given that TeamSybase is a diverse group of users of Sybase
> products, the contents of this message do not necessarily represent the
> views of a significant number of the members of TeamSybase.  Given that
the
> author has multiple personalities and hears voices in his head, the
contents
> of this message do not necessarily represent his own views.

Ad #1 True, True
It could help especially when You have planty of  inst. vars

Regards KR

Jerry Siegel wrote:

> IMHO, #1 could easily be hand written and might cause conflicts with
> variable access level. How about a wizard to create getter/setter methods,
> from an RMB on the instance variable declarations?
> #3 violates the first principle of production grade coding - it must be
> readable. Just think Polish Postfix (anybody else remember those old HP
> calculators?) and write functions : complex1 = plus(complex2, complex3).
>
> "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" <NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@teamsybase.com>
> wrote in message news:dg1ns05acajln2h1r8lbglk2nkctmggciv@4ax.com...
> > On 23 Dec 2004 09:07:36 -0800, "james" <hobby3000@163.com> wrote:
> >
> > >I'd like PB to support these OO technologies:
> > >
> > >1. in the user define object , support getXxx() and setXxx() method for
> user
> > >define properties (as delphi,C# do).
> >
> > That would be cool.
> >
> > >2. support overload constructor event so that we can new an object with
> > >initial parameters
> >
> > That's planned.
> >
> > >3. in some project with many complex calculation operations, i'd like to
> use
> > >operator overload
> >
> > Oh, please don't!  You realize that C# doesn't allow this either?
> >
> >
> >
> > Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]
> > http://www.teamsybase.com
> >
> > TeamSybase blogs:
> > http://www.teamsybase.net/blogs
> >
> > Two 3rd party books on developing with PowerBuilder
> > http://www.pb9books.com?source=newsgroups
> >
> > Need code sample?  Check out CodeXchange:
> > http://www.codexchange.sybase.com
> >
> > Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words. - Francis of
> Assisi
> > http://www.needhim.org
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:
> >
> > If you are using Google to post messages to the newsgroups, you will
> > *not* receive a reply.  Messages posted through Google never reach the
> > Sybase newsgroup server, so we don't see them in order to respond to
> > them.  You should post your question using a standard newsgroup reader
> > or the web based newsreaders at my.sybase.com or www.pfcguide.com.
> > Google is great for searching the Sybase newsgroups, but you can't post
> > to them from there.
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > DISCLAIMER:
> >
> > This newsgroup message is only intended for the recipient. Given that it
> > is a posting to a public newsgroup, that means if you can read this
> > message then you are the recipient.  This message may contain information
> > that is confidential and protected from disclosure. And then again,
> > it may not.
> >
> > Given that TeamSybase members are not employees of Sybase, the contents
> > of this message do not necessarily represent the views or policies of
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> > products, the contents of this message do not necessarily represent the
> > views of a significant number of the members of TeamSybase.  Given that
> the
> > author has multiple personalities and hears voices in his head, the
> contents
> > of this message do not necessarily represent his own views.

"Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" wrote:
>>3.in some project with many complex calculation operations, i'd like to
use
>>operator overload
>
> Oh, please don't!  You realize that C# doesn't allow this either?

Are you sure about C#? I was able to do the following:

public class Money {
  private double amount;
  public Money(double amount) { this.amount = amount; }
  public static Money operator+(Money amt1, Money amt2) {
    return new Money(amt1.amount + amt2.amount);
  }
  public override string ToString() {
    return "" + amount;
  }
}

Money m1 = new Money(5);
Money m2 = new Money(10);
Console.out.Writeline("Total = " + (m1 + m2));

Then "Jerry Siegel" wrote:
> #3 violates the first principle of production grade coding - it must be
> readable. Just think Polish Postfix (anybody else remember those old HP
> calculators?) and write functions : complex1 = plus(complex2, complex3).

Here's some real live Java code:
BigDecimal amount = ...;
BigDecimal discount = ...;

BigDecimal total = amount.subtract(amount.multiply(discount));

If Java supported operator overriding, I could write this instead which I
think looks more readable:

BigDecimal amount = ...;
BigDecimal discount = ...;

BigDecimal total = amount - (amount * discount);

Regards,
John Urberg

That's method overriding.  Bruce is talking about operator 
overloading...very different.  For what it's worth, I thought you could 
overload operators in C# but, regardless, it's a ridiculous feature.


Carson

________________________________

Carson Hager
Cynergy Systems, Inc.
http://www.cynergysystems.com

Take PowerBuilder Applications to the Web Today with Cynergy EAF 4.0
http://www.cynergysystems.com/public/products/eaf



"John Urberg" <jurberg@my-deja.com> wrote in message 
news:41d204db$1@forums-2-dub...
> "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" wrote:
>>>3.in some project with many complex calculation operations, i'd like to
> use
>>>operator overload
>>
>> Oh, please don't!  You realize that C# doesn't allow this either?
>
> Are you sure about C#? I was able to do the following:
>
> public class Money {
>  private double amount;
>  public Money(double amount) { this.amount = amount; }
>  public static Money operator+(Money amt1, Money amt2) {
>    return new Money(amt1.amount + amt2.amount);
>  }
>  public override string ToString() {
>    return "" + amount;
>  }
> }
>
> Money m1 = new Money(5);
> Money m2 = new Money(10);
> Console.out.Writeline("Total = " + (m1 + m2));
>
> Then "Jerry Siegel" wrote:
>> #3 violates the first principle of production grade coding - it must be
>> readable. Just think Polish Postfix (anybody else remember those old HP
>> calculators?) and write functions : complex1 = plus(complex2, complex3).
>
> Here's some real live Java code:
> BigDecimal amount = ...;
> BigDecimal discount = ...;
>
> BigDecimal total = amount.subtract(amount.multiply(discount));
>
> If Java supported operator overriding, I could write this instead which I
> think looks more readable:
>
> BigDecimal amount = ...;
> BigDecimal discount = ...;
>
> BigDecimal total = amount - (amount * discount);
>
> Regards,
> John Urberg
>
>
> 

I was thinking it was C# because it's fairly new, but it supports it
(I suppose) because C++ does.  It's the Java folks that came to their
senses and don't allow it.  (All I remembered off the top of my head
was that it was one of the newer languages).

On 28 Dec 2004 17:14:09 -0800, "John Urberg" <jurberg@my-deja.com>
wrote:

>"Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" wrote:
>>>3.in some project with many complex calculation operations, i'd like to
>use
>>>operator overload
>>
>> Oh, please don't!  You realize that C# doesn't allow this either?
>
>Are you sure about C#? I was able to do the following:
>
>public class Money {
>  private double amount;
>  public Money(double amount) { this.amount = amount; }
>  public static Money operator+(Money amt1, Money amt2) {
>    return new Money(amt1.amount + amt2.amount);
>  }
>  public override string ToString() {
>    return "" + amount;
>  }
>}
>
>Money m1 = new Money(5);
>Money m2 = new Money(10);
>Console.out.Writeline("Total = " + (m1 + m2));
>
>Then "Jerry Siegel" wrote:
>> #3 violates the first principle of production grade coding - it must be
>> readable. Just think Polish Postfix (anybody else remember those old HP
>> calculators?) and write functions : complex1 = plus(complex2, complex3).
>
>Here's some real live Java code:
>BigDecimal amount = ...;
>BigDecimal discount = ...;
>
>BigDecimal total = amount.subtract(amount.multiply(discount));
>
>If Java supported operator overriding, I could write this instead which I
>think looks more readable:
>
>BigDecimal amount = ...;
>BigDecimal discount = ...;
>
>BigDecimal total = amount - (amount * discount);
>
>Regards,
>John Urberg
>
>

Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]
http://www.teamsybase.com

TeamSybase blogs:
http://www.teamsybase.net/blogs

Two 3rd party books on developing with PowerBuilder
http://www.pb9books.com?source=newsgroups

Need code sample?  Check out CodeXchange:
http://www.codexchange.sybase.com

Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words. - Francis of Assisi
http://www.needhim.org

---------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:

If you are using Google to post messages to the newsgroups, you will
*not* receive a reply.  Messages posted through Google never reach the
Sybase newsgroup server, so we don't see them in order to respond to
them.  You should post your question using a standard newsgroup reader 
or the web based newsreaders at my.sybase.com or www.pfcguide.com.  
Google is great for searching the Sybase newsgroups, but you can't post
to them from there.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER:

This newsgroup message is only intended for the recipient. Given that it
is a posting to a public newsgroup, that means if you can read this
message then you are the recipient.  This message may contain information
that is confidential and protected from disclosure. And then again, 
it may not.

Given that TeamSybase members are not employees of Sybase, the contents 
of this message do not necessarily represent the views or policies of 
Sybase.  Given that TeamSybase is a diverse group of users of Sybase
products, the contents of this message do not necessarily represent the 
views of a significant number of the members of TeamSybase.  Given that the
author has multiple personalities and hears voices in his head, the contents 
of this message do not necessarily represent his own views.

How is John's example not operator overloading?

I would disagree that its ridiculous.  It can be overused and abused, but 
used correctly in the right places its a great addition.  Situations like 
John's Money class and Java's BigDecimal are those right places.  When Java 
programmers cry for operator overloading, invariably BigDecimal is brought 
up.  Just read the javadoc for BigDecimal and you'll think the author of 
BigDecimal wanted operator overloading too!

Its mostly a philosophical difference.  Do you want the language to protect 
you at every opportunity?  That's been the trend (ala type safety).  Or do 
you want the language to give you enough rope to hang yourself (and you can 
choose to hang yourself or use it correctly and help yourself).  I think 
this is more the new trend (ala Ruby and duck-typing).

-Chris


"T. Carson Hager [Team Sybase]" <carson.hager@cynergysystems.com> wrote in 
message news:41d20d2a$1@forums-2-dub...
> That's method overriding.  Bruce is talking about operator 
> overloading...very different.  For what it's worth, I thought you could 
> overload operators in C# but, regardless, it's a ridiculous feature.
>
>
> Carson
>
> ________________________________
>
> Carson Hager
> Cynergy Systems, Inc.
> http://www.cynergysystems.com
>
> Take PowerBuilder Applications to the Web Today with Cynergy EAF 4.0
> http://www.cynergysystems.com/public/products/eaf
>
>
>
> "John Urberg" <jurberg@my-deja.com> wrote in message 
> news:41d204db$1@forums-2-dub...
>> "Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]" wrote:
>>>>3.in some project with many complex calculation operations, i'd like to
>> use
>>>>operator overload
>>>
>>> Oh, please don't!  You realize that C# doesn't allow this either?
>>
>> Are you sure about C#? I was able to do the following:
>>
>> public class Money {
>>  private double amount;
>>  public Money(double amount) { this.amount = amount; }
>>  public static Money operator+(Money amt1, Money amt2) {
>>    return new Money(amt1.amount + amt2.amount);
>>  }
>>  public override string ToString() {
>>    return "" + amount;
>>  }
>> }
>>
>> Money m1 = new Money(5);
>> Money m2 = new Money(10);
>> Console.out.Writeline("Total = " + (m1 + m2));
>>
>> Then "Jerry Siegel" wrote:
>>> #3 violates the first principle of production grade coding - it must be
>>> readable. Just think Polish Postfix (anybody else remember those old HP
>>> calculators?) and write functions : complex1 = plus(complex2, complex3).
>>
>> Here's some real live Java code:
>> BigDecimal amount = ...;
>> BigDecimal discount = ...;
>>
>> BigDecimal total = amount.subtract(amount.multiply(discount));
>>
>> If Java supported operator overriding, I could write this instead which I
>> think looks more readable:
>>
>> BigDecimal amount = ...;
>> BigDecimal discount = ...;
>>
>> BigDecimal total = amount - (amount * discount);
>>
>> Regards,
>> John Urberg
>>
>>
>>
>
>