I stand corrected, HTML5 it is....

Looks like Microsoft is giving up on Silverlight in favor of HTML5:

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-
shifted/7834

And Adobe has decided to support conversion to HTML5 from Flash:

http://www.slashgear.com/adobe-demos-flash-to-html5-conversion-tool-at-max2010-2
8110917/

So, Sybase, looks like we might need to focus on HTML5 rather than Silverlight
for PB15.


0
Bruce
10/29/2010 9:44:46 PM
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Although, I have to say I like the Adobe plan.  The develop a
converter from Flash to HTML5.  Then they recommend constructing the
web page so that it defaults to Flash but does a fallback to HTML5 if
the Flash plugin is not available.  If the user don't have Flash and
their browser doesn't support HTML5, then they're hosed.

http://2010.max.adobe.com/online/2010/MAX128_1288210933609YPKB

They talk about the biggest issues I see with HTML5, largely being the
time it's going to be before the vast majority of people have HTML5
capable browsers, particularly given the number of people still on IE
and that IE9 doesn't deploy on XP.

The plugin default / HTML5 fallback approach helps ensure that you can
still reach the vast majority.

On 29 Oct 2010 14:44:46 -0700, "Bruce Armstrong"
<NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>Looks like Microsoft is giving up on Silverlight in favor of HTML5:
>
>http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-
>shifted/7834
>
>And Adobe has decided to support conversion to HTML5 from Flash:
>
>http://www.slashgear.com/adobe-demos-flash-to-html5-conversion-tool-at-max2010-2
>8110917/
>
>So, Sybase, looks like we might need to focus on HTML5 rather than Silverlight
>for PB15.
>
0
Bruce
10/30/2010 5:05:54 PM
Hi Bruce;

  Thanks for the update and great information links!

Regards ... Chris
President: OSUG / STD Inc.
Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass

"Bruce Armstrong"  wrote in message news:4ccb404e$1@forums-1-dub...


Looks like Microsoft is giving up on Silverlight in favor of HTML5:

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-
shifted/7834

And Adobe has decided to support conversion to HTML5 from Flash:

http://www.slashgear.com/adobe-demos-flash-to-html5-conversion-tool-at-max2010-2
8110917/

So, Sybase, looks like we might need to focus on HTML5 rather than 
Silverlight
for PB15.

0
Chris
10/31/2010 12:33:50 AM
Some follow up.  An interesting article from ZDNet  that lays out a
possible reason why Microsoft made the decision they did:

http://www.zdnet.co.uk/blogs/500-words-into-the-future-10014052/platform-as-luxury-10020976/

As an aside, it looks like the folks at Telerik still believe in
Silverlight, though since they make Silverlight controls they have a
vested interest.  Then again, the article may have been on it's way to
press when Microsoft made their announcment:

http://reddevnews.com/articles/2010/11/05/silverlight-what-web-forms-wanted-to-be.aspx

Finally, a session from PDC on HTML5, and just where the different
pieces are now:

http://player.microsoftpdc.com/Session/8c96fa4f-9f68-495e-baa3-07455c0e2988

I have to say I'm starting to develop a leaning towards an Adobe like
approach.  Provide support for both Silverlight and HTML5.  Configure
the pages so that they use Silverlight first if the player is
available, and then drop back to HTML5 if supported if the player
isn't.

It's still going to be a considerable time before the market
penetration of HTML5 browsers is sufficient to go with an HTML5 only
approach.  A Silverlight/HTML5 approach allows you to develop apps
that can work in those browsers that don't support HTML5.



0
Bruce
11/7/2010 5:38:06 PM
More follow up.  Some pertinent comments from some of the pundents who
follow Microsoft.

One Microsoft Way's evaluation of why it shouldn't have come as a
shock, but also doesn't make sense this soon:
http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/11/silverlight-html5-and-microsofts-opaque-development-strategy.ars

That article references an Infoworld article which indicates that the
folks on the HTML5 committee are recommending that people not start
using it for some time yet:

http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/w3c-hold-html5-in-websites-041?page=0,0

And there's this from Redond Review, which apparently was written
before the Bob Muglia interview was published.  The author is
compaining about Microsoft's apparently lack of support for
Silverlight and it's affect on partners. 

http://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2010/11/01/protect-whats-yours.aspx


0
Bruce
11/10/2010 6:37:35 AM
Hi Bruce;

Thanks for the great links!

I think this sentence summarizes it for me ... "The development of Internet 
Explorer 9 should have been a wake-up call to Silverlight developers. "

The interesting question now is where Sybase will take PB 15 a la web?

Regards ... Chris
President: OSUG / STD Inc.
Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass

"Bruce Armstrong"  wrote in message 
news:ivekd69oh691q0718ht1go3v92q6909nco@4ax.com...


More follow up.  Some pertinent comments from some of the pundents who
follow Microsoft.

One Microsoft Way's evaluation of why it shouldn't have come as a
shock, but also doesn't make sense this soon:
http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/11/silverlight-html5-and-microsofts-opaque-development-strategy.ars

That article references an Infoworld article which indicates that the
folks on the HTML5 committee are recommending that people not start
using it for some time yet:

http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/w3c-hold-html5-in-websites-041?page=0,0

And there's this from Redond Review, which apparently was written
before the Bob Muglia interview was published.  The author is
compaining about Microsoft's apparently lack of support for
Silverlight and it's affect on partners.

http://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2010/11/01/protect-whats-yours.aspx

0
Chris
11/10/2010 2:51:48 PM
The MS MVP response included a statement that basically said, 
"Silverlight is meant to do the things that HTML5 can't."

When PB15 comes out, will HTML5 be able-- at that time-- to do 
everything that PB needs it to do?



On 11/10/2010 8:51 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
> Hi Bruce;
>
> Thanks for the great links!
>
> I think this sentence summarizes it for me ... "The development of
> Internet Explorer 9 should have been a wake-up call to Silverlight
> developers. "
>
> The interesting question now is where Sybase will take PB 15 a la web?
>
> Regards ... Chris
> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>
> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
> news:ivekd69oh691q0718ht1go3v92q6909nco@4ax.com...
>
>
> More follow up. Some pertinent comments from some of the pundents who
> follow Microsoft.
>
> One Microsoft Way's evaluation of why it shouldn't have come as a
> shock, but also doesn't make sense this soon:
> http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/11/silverlight-html5-and-microsofts-opaque-development-strategy.ars
>
>
> That article references an Infoworld article which indicates that the
> folks on the HTML5 committee are recommending that people not start
> using it for some time yet:
>
> http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/w3c-hold-html5-in-websites-041?page=0,0
>
>
> And there's this from Redond Review, which apparently was written
> before the Bob Muglia interview was published. The author is
> compaining about Microsoft's apparently lack of support for
> Silverlight and it's affect on partners.
>
> http://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2010/11/01/protect-whats-yours.aspx
>
>
0
Jason
11/10/2010 5:44:23 PM
Hi Jason;

   Yes, that will be interesting to see how SL evolves now that MS's focus 
for it is for Windows Phone 7. Also, exactly what will SL address that would 
draw web designers to SL vs HTML5. Of course, its probably too early to tell 
yet.

   On the other hand - HTML5 solves the zero plug-in and eventually full 
multi-browser and cross platform compatibility which is a current mandatory 
requirement for many web developers (as dictated by their organization 
today ). So if HTML5 can do 90/95%+ of everything a web application needs 
without a plug-in and meets all mandatory features - I suspect that 
management will force us to go that route. This is already the case for the 
entire Canadian government as their CLF2 web standards are being revised 
(proposed CLF3 standard in progress) and already states that HTML5 is the 
only accepted direction at this point.


Regards ... Chris
President: OSUG / STD Inc.
Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass

"Jason 'Bug' Fenter [TeamSybase]"  wrote in message 
news:4cdad9f7$1@forums-1-dub...

The MS MVP response included a statement that basically said,
"Silverlight is meant to do the things that HTML5 can't."

When PB15 comes out, will HTML5 be able-- at that time-- to do
everything that PB needs it to do?



On 11/10/2010 8:51 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
> Hi Bruce;
>
> Thanks for the great links!
>
> I think this sentence summarizes it for me ... "The development of
> Internet Explorer 9 should have been a wake-up call to Silverlight
> developers. "
>
> The interesting question now is where Sybase will take PB 15 a la web?
>
> Regards ... Chris
> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>
> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
> news:ivekd69oh691q0718ht1go3v92q6909nco@4ax.com...
>
>
> More follow up. Some pertinent comments from some of the pundents who
> follow Microsoft.
>
> One Microsoft Way's evaluation of why it shouldn't have come as a
> shock, but also doesn't make sense this soon:
> http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/11/silverlight-html5-and-microsofts-opaque-development-strategy.ars
>
>
> That article references an Infoworld article which indicates that the
> folks on the HTML5 committee are recommending that people not start
> using it for some time yet:
>
> http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/w3c-hold-html5-in-websites-041?page=0,0
>
>
> And there's this from Redond Review, which apparently was written
> before the Bob Muglia interview was published. The author is
> compaining about Microsoft's apparently lack of support for
> Silverlight and it's affect on partners.
>
> http://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2010/11/01/protect-whats-yours.aspx
>
> 

0
Chris
11/10/2010 7:41:00 PM
It may be available.  It mat NOT be accessible my the majority of users.
 If people are standardized on IE they will need to have IE9 to use it. 
IE wont run on XP, which is the most common OS right now.

Have to give MS credit for one thing, supporting HTML5 and not
supporting IE9 on XP may force a lot of people to do an OS upgrade. 
Nicely played.

Thats why Ive become a fan of the dual Silverlight/HTML5 approach.

I also wonder about some of the standards that are related to HTML5, but
arent officially part of the HTML5 spec.  Im not sure that MS is focused
on them for IE9, but many people may consider them part of HTML5 and
code for them.

"Jason 'Bug' Fenter [TeamSybase]" <jason.fenter@teamsybase.com> wrote:
> The MS MVP response included a statement that basically said,
> "Silverlight is meant to do the things that HTML5 can't."
> 
> When PB15 comes out, will HTML5 be able-- at that time-- to do
> everything that PB needs it to do?
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/10/2010 8:51 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
>> Hi Bruce;
>> 
>> Thanks for the great links!
>> 
>> I think this sentence summarizes it for me ... "The development of
>> Internet Explorer 9 should have been a wake-up call to Silverlight
>> developers. "
>> 
>> The interesting question now is where Sybase will take PB 15 a la
> > web?
>> 
>> Regards ... Chris
>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>> 
>> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>> news:ivekd69oh691q0718ht1go3v92q6909nco@4ax.com...
>> 
>> 
>> More follow up. Some pertinent comments from some of the pundents who
>> follow Microsoft.
>> 
>> One Microsoft Way's evaluation of why it shouldn't have come as a
>> shock, but also doesn't make sense this soon:
>> http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/11/silverlight-html5-and-microsofts-opaque-development-strategy.ars
>> 
>> 
>> That article references an Infoworld article which indicates that the
>> folks on the HTML5 committee are recommending that people not start
>> using it for some time yet:
>> 
>> http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/w3c-hold-html5-in-websites-041?page=0,0
>> 
>> 
>> And there's this from Redond Review, which apparently was written
>> before the Bob Muglia interview was published. The author is
>> compaining about Microsoft's apparently lack of support for
>> Silverlight and it's affect on partners.
>> 
>> http://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2010/11/01/protect-whats-yours.aspx
>> 
>>
0
Bruce
11/10/2010 7:47:55 PM
"now that MS's focus for it is for Windows Phone 7"  ????

Even the Foley-ized quote (below) doesn't jump to that conclusion:
(http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834)
�Silverlight is our development platform for Windows Phone,� he said.
Silverlight also has some �sweet spots� in media and line-of-business
applications, he said.

Additional posts have been made clarifying Silverlight's positioning
	Muglia:
http://team.silverlight.net/announcement/pdc-and-silverlight/
	Guthrie:
http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2010/11/04/silverlight-questions.aspx

"3.  Silverlight is a core application development platform for
Windows, and it�s the development platform for Windows Phone."

It's more correctly ONE of the development platforms for the Windows
Phone - and not to the exclusion of all other platforms - and the
version on the phone is actually Silverlight 3+ not 4 as it is for
'web' development today. Silverlight is a client play not a web play,
not a phone play, not a desktop play.  

Silverlight and Flash are at their core NOT web technologies, they are
client technologies delivered (primarily) via the web and designed to
increase the richness of what can be delivered with standard web
technologies (HTML, CSS, etc.)   As those technologies mature (HTML5,
CSS3, etc.) are there scenarios that you'll be able implement then
without Flash or Silverlight - absolutely;  will Flash and Silverlight
continue to innovate to provide functionality above and beyond what
'standards' dictate - absolutely.  It's the cycle of innovation -
we've survived it before and we will agaiin.

Honestly, I think there's a more tenuous story with WPF and
Silverlight than there is with Silverlight and HTML5.

Jim O'Neil
Developer Evangelist
Microsoft

http://blogs.msdn.com/jimoneil | @jimoneil

On 10 Nov 2010 11:41:00 -0800, "Chris Pollach"
<cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:

>Hi Jason;
>
>   Yes, that will be interesting to see how SL evolves now that MS's focus 
>for it is for Windows Phone 7. Also, exactly what will SL address that would 
>draw web designers to SL vs HTML5. Of course, its probably too early to tell 
>yet.
>
>   On the other hand - HTML5 solves the zero plug-in and eventually full 
>multi-browser and cross platform compatibility which is a current mandatory 
>requirement for many web developers (as dictated by their organization 
>today ). So if HTML5 can do 90/95%+ of everything a web application needs 
>without a plug-in and meets all mandatory features - I suspect that 
>management will force us to go that route. This is already the case for the 
>entire Canadian government as their CLF2 web standards are being revised 
>(proposed CLF3 standard in progress) and already states that HTML5 is the 
>only accepted direction at this point.
>
>
>Regards ... Chris
>President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>
>"Jason 'Bug' Fenter [TeamSybase]"  wrote in message 
>news:4cdad9f7$1@forums-1-dub...
>
>The MS MVP response included a statement that basically said,
>"Silverlight is meant to do the things that HTML5 can't."
>
>When PB15 comes out, will HTML5 be able-- at that time-- to do
>everything that PB needs it to do?
>
>
>
>On 11/10/2010 8:51 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
>> Hi Bruce;
>>
>> Thanks for the great links!
>>
>> I think this sentence summarizes it for me ... "The development of
>> Internet Explorer 9 should have been a wake-up call to Silverlight
>> developers. "
>>
>> The interesting question now is where Sybase will take PB 15 a la web?
>>
>> Regards ... Chris
>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>
>> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>> news:ivekd69oh691q0718ht1go3v92q6909nco@4ax.com...
>>
>>
>> More follow up. Some pertinent comments from some of the pundents who
>> follow Microsoft.
>>
>> One Microsoft Way's evaluation of why it shouldn't have come as a
>> shock, but also doesn't make sense this soon:
>> http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/11/silverlight-html5-and-microsofts-opaque-development-strategy.ars
>>
>>
>> That article references an Infoworld article which indicates that the
>> folks on the HTML5 committee are recommending that people not start
>> using it for some time yet:
>>
>> http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/w3c-hold-html5-in-websites-041?page=0,0
>>
>>
>> And there's this from Redond Review, which apparently was written
>> before the Bob Muglia interview was published. The author is
>> compaining about Microsoft's apparently lack of support for
>> Silverlight and it's affect on partners.
>>
>> http://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2010/11/01/protect-whats-yours.aspx
>>
>> 
0
Jim
11/11/2010 9:51:39 PM
Whether or not Silverlight works on a desktop its use in Windows Phone
7 is what's going to drive it.
Windows Phone 7 will have about 3.7% market share in 2 years according
to the pundits. I think they are being optimistic.

PowerBuilder Classic is going to be a good platform for some time yet.

On 10 Nov 2010 11:47:55 -0800, Bruce Armstrong
<NOCANSPAM_bruce.armstrong@yahoo.com> wrote:

>It may be available.  It mat NOT be accessible my the majority of users.
> If people are standardized on IE they will need to have IE9 to use it. 
>IE wont run on XP, which is the most common OS right now.
>
>Have to give MS credit for one thing, supporting HTML5 and not
>supporting IE9 on XP may force a lot of people to do an OS upgrade. 
>Nicely played.
>
>Thats why Ive become a fan of the dual Silverlight/HTML5 approach.
>
>I also wonder about some of the standards that are related to HTML5, but
>arent officially part of the HTML5 spec.  Im not sure that MS is focused
>on them for IE9, but many people may consider them part of HTML5 and
>code for them.
>
>"Jason 'Bug' Fenter [TeamSybase]" <jason.fenter@teamsybase.com> wrote:
>> The MS MVP response included a statement that basically said,
>> "Silverlight is meant to do the things that HTML5 can't."
>> 
>> When PB15 comes out, will HTML5 be able-- at that time-- to do
>> everything that PB needs it to do?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 11/10/2010 8:51 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
>>> Hi Bruce;
>>> 
>>> Thanks for the great links!
>>> 
>>> I think this sentence summarizes it for me ... "The development of
>>> Internet Explorer 9 should have been a wake-up call to Silverlight
>>> developers. "
>>> 
>>> The interesting question now is where Sybase will take PB 15 a la
>> > web?
>>> 
>>> Regards ... Chris
>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>> 
>>> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>>> news:ivekd69oh691q0718ht1go3v92q6909nco@4ax.com...
>>> 
>>> 
>>> More follow up. Some pertinent comments from some of the pundents who
>>> follow Microsoft.
>>> 
>>> One Microsoft Way's evaluation of why it shouldn't have come as a
>>> shock, but also doesn't make sense this soon:
>>> http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/11/silverlight-html5-and-microsofts-opaque-development-strategy.ars
>>> 
>>> 
>>> That article references an Infoworld article which indicates that the
>>> folks on the HTML5 committee are recommending that people not start
>>> using it for some time yet:
>>> 
>>> http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/w3c-hold-html5-in-websites-041?page=0,0
>>> 
>>> 
>>> And there's this from Redond Review, which apparently was written
>>> before the Bob Muglia interview was published. The author is
>>> compaining about Microsoft's apparently lack of support for
>>> Silverlight and it's affect on partners.
>>> 
>>> http://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2010/11/01/protect-whats-yours.aspx
>>> 
>>>
0
Brett
11/12/2010 7:48:08 AM
Hi Jim;

  Please go back and reread the SL threads from MS. Also see Brett's post 
later in this thread as he has noted that direction as well. According to 
MS - SL is really WPF/E and MS wants to enable every VS2010 developer to be 
a WP7 developer. So their plan to expedite this is SL. The main driver of 
course is to compete against the Apple and Android "AppStore" that is just 
as important to the smart phone as its hardware from the consumers 
perspective.

  BTW: I just got an iPhone3G for free last week (sweet deal I tell ya) and 
my daughter just got a new iPhone 4G yesterday for $159. My Martial Arts 
master and his assistant just got new Blackberries. I tell ya, this is where 
the action is happening IMHO. I think that this area will overshadow desktop 
application development very soon.

  What we need as developers is to be able to build HTML5 applications that 
can run within these smart phone's web browser. I think that this will 
precipitate exponential user demand from here on. Of course, native 
applications on these devices would be the icing on the cake too (hello 
Santa? <bg>)


Regards ... Chris
President: OSUG / STD Inc.
Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass

"Jim O'Neil"  wrote in message 
news:ltmod6ln0550vl296pcli6d54atr839032@4ax.com...

"now that MS's focus for it is for Windows Phone 7"  ????

Even the Foley-ized quote (below) doesn't jump to that conclusion:
(http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834)
“Silverlight is our development platform for Windows Phone,” he said.
Silverlight also has some “sweet spots” in media and line-of-business
applications, he said.

Additional posts have been made clarifying Silverlight's positioning
Muglia:
http://team.silverlight.net/announcement/pdc-and-silverlight/
Guthrie:
http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2010/11/04/silverlight-questions.aspx

"3.  Silverlight is a core application development platform for
Windows, and it’s the development platform for Windows Phone."

It's more correctly ONE of the development platforms for the Windows
Phone - and not to the exclusion of all other platforms - and the
version on the phone is actually Silverlight 3+ not 4 as it is for
'web' development today. Silverlight is a client play not a web play,
not a phone play, not a desktop play.

Silverlight and Flash are at their core NOT web technologies, they are
client technologies delivered (primarily) via the web and designed to
increase the richness of what can be delivered with standard web
technologies (HTML, CSS, etc.)   As those technologies mature (HTML5,
CSS3, etc.) are there scenarios that you'll be able implement then
without Flash or Silverlight - absolutely;  will Flash and Silverlight
continue to innovate to provide functionality above and beyond what
'standards' dictate - absolutely.  It's the cycle of innovation -
we've survived it before and we will agaiin.

Honestly, I think there's a more tenuous story with WPF and
Silverlight than there is with Silverlight and HTML5.

Jim O'Neil
Developer Evangelist
Microsoft

http://blogs.msdn.com/jimoneil | @jimoneil

On 10 Nov 2010 11:41:00 -0800, "Chris Pollach"
<cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:

>Hi Jason;
>
>   Yes, that will be interesting to see how SL evolves now that MS's focus
>for it is for Windows Phone 7. Also, exactly what will SL address that 
>would
>draw web designers to SL vs HTML5. Of course, its probably too early to 
>tell
>yet.
>
>   On the other hand - HTML5 solves the zero plug-in and eventually full
>multi-browser and cross platform compatibility which is a current mandatory
>requirement for many web developers (as dictated by their organization
>today ). So if HTML5 can do 90/95%+ of everything a web application needs
>without a plug-in and meets all mandatory features - I suspect that
>management will force us to go that route. This is already the case for the
>entire Canadian government as their CLF2 web standards are being revised
>(proposed CLF3 standard in progress) and already states that HTML5 is the
>only accepted direction at this point.
>
>
>Regards ... Chris
>President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>
>"Jason 'Bug' Fenter [TeamSybase]"  wrote in message
>news:4cdad9f7$1@forums-1-dub...
>
>The MS MVP response included a statement that basically said,
>"Silverlight is meant to do the things that HTML5 can't."
>
>When PB15 comes out, will HTML5 be able-- at that time-- to do
>everything that PB needs it to do?
>
>
>
>On 11/10/2010 8:51 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
>> Hi Bruce;
>>
>> Thanks for the great links!
>>
>> I think this sentence summarizes it for me ... "The development of
>> Internet Explorer 9 should have been a wake-up call to Silverlight
>> developers. "
>>
>> The interesting question now is where Sybase will take PB 15 a la web?
>>
>> Regards ... Chris
>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>
>> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>> news:ivekd69oh691q0718ht1go3v92q6909nco@4ax.com...
>>
>>
>> More follow up. Some pertinent comments from some of the pundents who
>> follow Microsoft.
>>
>> One Microsoft Way's evaluation of why it shouldn't have come as a
>> shock, but also doesn't make sense this soon:
>> http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/11/silverlight-html5-and-microsofts-opaque-development-strategy.ars
>>
>>
>> That article references an Infoworld article which indicates that the
>> folks on the HTML5 committee are recommending that people not start
>> using it for some time yet:
>>
>> http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/w3c-hold-html5-in-websites-041?page=0,0
>>
>>
>> And there's this from Redond Review, which apparently was written
>> before the Bob Muglia interview was published. The author is
>> compaining about Microsoft's apparently lack of support for
>> Silverlight and it's affect on partners.
>>
>> http://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2010/11/01/protect-whats-yours.aspx
>>
>> 

0
Chris
11/12/2010 3:22:35 PM
I agree... Just yesterday I got a call from another client that wants 
our business apps to run on apple products...

Seems like directors everywhere are picking up Apple products and they 
want to be able to run their Windows business apps on Windows/Apple OS's 
(Mac, iPhone, iPad, Etc.) and that is only going to happen with HTML5 IMHO.

Regards,
Adrian


El 12/11/2010 09:22 a.m., Chris Pollach escribió:
> Hi Jim;
>
> Please go back and reread the SL threads from MS. Also see Brett's post
> later in this thread as he has noted that direction as well. According
> to MS - SL is really WPF/E and MS wants to enable every VS2010 developer
> to be a WP7 developer. So their plan to expedite this is SL. The main
> driver of course is to compete against the Apple and Android "AppStore"
> that is just as important to the smart phone as its hardware from the
> consumers perspective.
>
> BTW: I just got an iPhone3G for free last week (sweet deal I tell ya)
> and my daughter just got a new iPhone 4G yesterday for $159. My Martial
> Arts master and his assistant just got new Blackberries. I tell ya, this
> is where the action is happening IMHO. I think that this area will
> overshadow desktop application development very soon.
>
> What we need as developers is to be able to build HTML5 applications
> that can run within these smart phone's web browser. I think that this
> will precipitate exponential user demand from here on. Of course, native
> applications on these devices would be the icing on the cake too (hello
> Santa? <bg>)
>
>
> Regards ... Chris
> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>
> "Jim O'Neil" wrote in message
> news:ltmod6ln0550vl296pcli6d54atr839032@4ax.com...
>
> "now that MS's focus for it is for Windows Phone 7" ????
>
> Even the Foley-ized quote (below) doesn't jump to that conclusion:
> (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834)
>
> “Silverlight is our development platform for Windows Phone,” he said.
> Silverlight also has some “sweet spots” in media and line-of-business
> applications, he said.
>
> Additional posts have been made clarifying Silverlight's positioning
> Muglia:
> http://team.silverlight.net/announcement/pdc-and-silverlight/
> Guthrie:
> http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2010/11/04/silverlight-questions.aspx
>
>
> "3. Silverlight is a core application development platform for
> Windows, and it’s the development platform for Windows Phone."
>
> It's more correctly ONE of the development platforms for the Windows
> Phone - and not to the exclusion of all other platforms - and the
> version on the phone is actually Silverlight 3+ not 4 as it is for
> 'web' development today. Silverlight is a client play not a web play,
> not a phone play, not a desktop play.
>
> Silverlight and Flash are at their core NOT web technologies, they are
> client technologies delivered (primarily) via the web and designed to
> increase the richness of what can be delivered with standard web
> technologies (HTML, CSS, etc.) As those technologies mature (HTML5,
> CSS3, etc.) are there scenarios that you'll be able implement then
> without Flash or Silverlight - absolutely; will Flash and Silverlight
> continue to innovate to provide functionality above and beyond what
> 'standards' dictate - absolutely. It's the cycle of innovation -
> we've survived it before and we will agaiin.
>
> Honestly, I think there's a more tenuous story with WPF and
> Silverlight than there is with Silverlight and HTML5.
>
> Jim O'Neil
> Developer Evangelist
> Microsoft
>
> http://blogs.msdn.com/jimoneil | @jimoneil
>
> On 10 Nov 2010 11:41:00 -0800, "Chris Pollach"
> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jason;
>>
>> Yes, that will be interesting to see how SL evolves now that MS's focus
>> for it is for Windows Phone 7. Also, exactly what will SL address that
>> would
>> draw web designers to SL vs HTML5. Of course, its probably too early
>> to tell
>> yet.
>>
>> On the other hand - HTML5 solves the zero plug-in and eventually full
>> multi-browser and cross platform compatibility which is a current
>> mandatory
>> requirement for many web developers (as dictated by their organization
>> today ). So if HTML5 can do 90/95%+ of everything a web application needs
>> without a plug-in and meets all mandatory features - I suspect that
>> management will force us to go that route. This is already the case
>> for the
>> entire Canadian government as their CLF2 web standards are being revised
>> (proposed CLF3 standard in progress) and already states that HTML5 is the
>> only accepted direction at this point.
>>
>>
>> Regards ... Chris
>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>
>> "Jason 'Bug' Fenter [TeamSybase]" wrote in message
>> news:4cdad9f7$1@forums-1-dub...
>>
>> The MS MVP response included a statement that basically said,
>> "Silverlight is meant to do the things that HTML5 can't."
>>
>> When PB15 comes out, will HTML5 be able-- at that time-- to do
>> everything that PB needs it to do?
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/10/2010 8:51 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
>>> Hi Bruce;
>>>
>>> Thanks for the great links!
>>>
>>> I think this sentence summarizes it for me ... "The development of
>>> Internet Explorer 9 should have been a wake-up call to Silverlight
>>> developers. "
>>>
>>> The interesting question now is where Sybase will take PB 15 a la web?
>>>
>>> Regards ... Chris
>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>
>>> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>>> news:ivekd69oh691q0718ht1go3v92q6909nco@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>
>>> More follow up. Some pertinent comments from some of the pundents who
>>> follow Microsoft.
>>>
>>> One Microsoft Way's evaluation of why it shouldn't have come as a
>>> shock, but also doesn't make sense this soon:
>>> http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/11/silverlight-html5-and-microsofts-opaque-development-strategy.ars
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That article references an Infoworld article which indicates that the
>>> folks on the HTML5 committee are recommending that people not start
>>> using it for some time yet:
>>>
>>> http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/w3c-hold-html5-in-websites-041?page=0,0
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And there's this from Redond Review, which apparently was written
>>> before the Bob Muglia interview was published. The author is
>>> compaining about Microsoft's apparently lack of support for
>>> Silverlight and it's affect on partners.
>>>
>>> http://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2010/11/01/protect-whats-yours.aspx
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
0
Adrian
11/12/2010 4:29:55 PM
Hi Adrian;

  Thanks for the actual feedback on your situation.

   Sybase can fill the gap with SUP - but that is great for the large 
organization that wants to throw some big $$$$ at the problem. What small to 
medium business need (and even large software houses that develop for these 
platforms - but deliver to small business) are inexpensive solutions that 
meet their business application needs on smart devices and don't blow the 
budget.

   With the development tools out there currently, I feel that we are back 
to the days of "clipper" (the dBase compiler) - before the introduction of 
the DataWindow.  :-)


Regards ... Chris
President: OSUG / STD Inc.
Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass

"Adrian Galvan"  wrote in message news:4cdd6b83$1@forums-1-dub...

I agree... Just yesterday I got a call from another client that wants
our business apps to run on apple products...

Seems like directors everywhere are picking up Apple products and they
want to be able to run their Windows business apps on Windows/Apple OS's
(Mac, iPhone, iPad, Etc.) and that is only going to happen with HTML5 IMHO.

Regards,
Adrian


El 12/11/2010 09:22 a.m., Chris Pollach escribió:
> Hi Jim;
>
> Please go back and reread the SL threads from MS. Also see Brett's post
> later in this thread as he has noted that direction as well. According
> to MS - SL is really WPF/E and MS wants to enable every VS2010 developer
> to be a WP7 developer. So their plan to expedite this is SL. The main
> driver of course is to compete against the Apple and Android "AppStore"
> that is just as important to the smart phone as its hardware from the
> consumers perspective.
>
> BTW: I just got an iPhone3G for free last week (sweet deal I tell ya)
> and my daughter just got a new iPhone 4G yesterday for $159. My Martial
> Arts master and his assistant just got new Blackberries. I tell ya, this
> is where the action is happening IMHO. I think that this area will
> overshadow desktop application development very soon.
>
> What we need as developers is to be able to build HTML5 applications
> that can run within these smart phone's web browser. I think that this
> will precipitate exponential user demand from here on. Of course, native
> applications on these devices would be the icing on the cake too (hello
> Santa? <bg>)
>
>
> Regards ... Chris
> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>
> "Jim O'Neil" wrote in message
> news:ltmod6ln0550vl296pcli6d54atr839032@4ax.com...
>
> "now that MS's focus for it is for Windows Phone 7" ????
>
> Even the Foley-ized quote (below) doesn't jump to that conclusion:
> (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834)
>
> “Silverlight is our development platform for Windows Phone,” he said.
> Silverlight also has some “sweet spots” in media and line-of-business
> applications, he said.
>
> Additional posts have been made clarifying Silverlight's positioning
> Muglia:
> http://team.silverlight.net/announcement/pdc-and-silverlight/
> Guthrie:
> http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2010/11/04/silverlight-questions.aspx
>
>
> "3. Silverlight is a core application development platform for
> Windows, and it’s the development platform for Windows Phone."
>
> It's more correctly ONE of the development platforms for the Windows
> Phone - and not to the exclusion of all other platforms - and the
> version on the phone is actually Silverlight 3+ not 4 as it is for
> 'web' development today. Silverlight is a client play not a web play,
> not a phone play, not a desktop play.
>
> Silverlight and Flash are at their core NOT web technologies, they are
> client technologies delivered (primarily) via the web and designed to
> increase the richness of what can be delivered with standard web
> technologies (HTML, CSS, etc.) As those technologies mature (HTML5,
> CSS3, etc.) are there scenarios that you'll be able implement then
> without Flash or Silverlight - absolutely; will Flash and Silverlight
> continue to innovate to provide functionality above and beyond what
> 'standards' dictate - absolutely. It's the cycle of innovation -
> we've survived it before and we will agaiin.
>
> Honestly, I think there's a more tenuous story with WPF and
> Silverlight than there is with Silverlight and HTML5.
>
> Jim O'Neil
> Developer Evangelist
> Microsoft
>
> http://blogs.msdn.com/jimoneil | @jimoneil
>
> On 10 Nov 2010 11:41:00 -0800, "Chris Pollach"
> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jason;
>>
>> Yes, that will be interesting to see how SL evolves now that MS's focus
>> for it is for Windows Phone 7. Also, exactly what will SL address that
>> would
>> draw web designers to SL vs HTML5. Of course, its probably too early
>> to tell
>> yet.
>>
>> On the other hand - HTML5 solves the zero plug-in and eventually full
>> multi-browser and cross platform compatibility which is a current
>> mandatory
>> requirement for many web developers (as dictated by their organization
>> today ). So if HTML5 can do 90/95%+ of everything a web application needs
>> without a plug-in and meets all mandatory features - I suspect that
>> management will force us to go that route. This is already the case
>> for the
>> entire Canadian government as their CLF2 web standards are being revised
>> (proposed CLF3 standard in progress) and already states that HTML5 is the
>> only accepted direction at this point.
>>
>>
>> Regards ... Chris
>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>
>> "Jason 'Bug' Fenter [TeamSybase]" wrote in message
>> news:4cdad9f7$1@forums-1-dub...
>>
>> The MS MVP response included a statement that basically said,
>> "Silverlight is meant to do the things that HTML5 can't."
>>
>> When PB15 comes out, will HTML5 be able-- at that time-- to do
>> everything that PB needs it to do?
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/10/2010 8:51 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
>>> Hi Bruce;
>>>
>>> Thanks for the great links!
>>>
>>> I think this sentence summarizes it for me ... "The development of
>>> Internet Explorer 9 should have been a wake-up call to Silverlight
>>> developers. "
>>>
>>> The interesting question now is where Sybase will take PB 15 a la web?
>>>
>>> Regards ... Chris
>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>
>>> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>>> news:ivekd69oh691q0718ht1go3v92q6909nco@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>
>>> More follow up. Some pertinent comments from some of the pundents who
>>> follow Microsoft.
>>>
>>> One Microsoft Way's evaluation of why it shouldn't have come as a
>>> shock, but also doesn't make sense this soon:
>>> http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/11/silverlight-html5-and-microsofts-opaque-development-strategy.ars
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That article references an Infoworld article which indicates that the
>>> folks on the HTML5 committee are recommending that people not start
>>> using it for some time yet:
>>>
>>> http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/w3c-hold-html5-in-websites-041?page=0,0
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And there's this from Redond Review, which apparently was written
>>> before the Bob Muglia interview was published. The author is
>>> compaining about Microsoft's apparently lack of support for
>>> Silverlight and it's affect on partners.
>>>
>>> http://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2010/11/01/protect-whats-yours.aspx
>>>
>>>
>>>
> 

0
Chris
11/12/2010 4:47:17 PM
OMG! I loved Clipper.

I think they call those the good old days. :)

On 11/12/2010 11:47 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
> Hi Adrian;
>
>  Thanks for the actual feedback on your situation.
>
>   Sybase can fill the gap with SUP - but that is great for the large 
> organization that wants to throw some big $$$$ at the problem. What 
> small to medium business need (and even large software houses that 
> develop for these platforms - but deliver to small business) are 
> inexpensive solutions that meet their business application needs on 
> smart devices and don't blow the budget.
>
>   With the development tools out there currently, I feel that we are 
> back to the days of "clipper" (the dBase compiler) - before the 
> introduction of the DataWindow.  :-)
>
>
> Regards ... Chris
> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>
> "Adrian Galvan"  wrote in message news:4cdd6b83$1@forums-1-dub...
>
> I agree... Just yesterday I got a call from another client that wants
> our business apps to run on apple products...
>
> Seems like directors everywhere are picking up Apple products and they
> want to be able to run their Windows business apps on Windows/Apple OS's
> (Mac, iPhone, iPad, Etc.) and that is only going to happen with HTML5 
> IMHO.
>
> Regards,
> Adrian
>
>
> El 12/11/2010 09:22 a.m., Chris Pollach escribió:
>> Hi Jim;
>>
>> Please go back and reread the SL threads from MS. Also see Brett's post
>> later in this thread as he has noted that direction as well. According
>> to MS - SL is really WPF/E and MS wants to enable every VS2010 developer
>> to be a WP7 developer. So their plan to expedite this is SL. The main
>> driver of course is to compete against the Apple and Android "AppStore"
>> that is just as important to the smart phone as its hardware from the
>> consumers perspective.
>>
>> BTW: I just got an iPhone3G for free last week (sweet deal I tell ya)
>> and my daughter just got a new iPhone 4G yesterday for $159. My Martial
>> Arts master and his assistant just got new Blackberries. I tell ya, this
>> is where the action is happening IMHO. I think that this area will
>> overshadow desktop application development very soon.
>>
>> What we need as developers is to be able to build HTML5 applications
>> that can run within these smart phone's web browser. I think that this
>> will precipitate exponential user demand from here on. Of course, native
>> applications on these devices would be the icing on the cake too (hello
>> Santa? <bg>)
>>
>>
>> Regards ... Chris
>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>
>> "Jim O'Neil" wrote in message
>> news:ltmod6ln0550vl296pcli6d54atr839032@4ax.com...
>>
>> "now that MS's focus for it is for Windows Phone 7" ????
>>
>> Even the Foley-ized quote (below) doesn't jump to that conclusion:
>> (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834) 
>>
>>
>> “Silverlight is our development platform for Windows Phone,” he said.
>> Silverlight also has some “sweet spots” in media and line-of-business
>> applications, he said.
>>
>> Additional posts have been made clarifying Silverlight's positioning
>> Muglia:
>> http://team.silverlight.net/announcement/pdc-and-silverlight/
>> Guthrie:
>> http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2010/11/04/silverlight-questions.aspx 
>>
>>
>>
>> "3. Silverlight is a core application development platform for
>> Windows, and it’s the development platform for Windows Phone."
>>
>> It's more correctly ONE of the development platforms for the Windows
>> Phone - and not to the exclusion of all other platforms - and the
>> version on the phone is actually Silverlight 3+ not 4 as it is for
>> 'web' development today. Silverlight is a client play not a web play,
>> not a phone play, not a desktop play.
>>
>> Silverlight and Flash are at their core NOT web technologies, they are
>> client technologies delivered (primarily) via the web and designed to
>> increase the richness of what can be delivered with standard web
>> technologies (HTML, CSS, etc.) As those technologies mature (HTML5,
>> CSS3, etc.) are there scenarios that you'll be able implement then
>> without Flash or Silverlight - absolutely; will Flash and Silverlight
>> continue to innovate to provide functionality above and beyond what
>> 'standards' dictate - absolutely. It's the cycle of innovation -
>> we've survived it before and we will agaiin.
>>
>> Honestly, I think there's a more tenuous story with WPF and
>> Silverlight than there is with Silverlight and HTML5.
>>
>> Jim O'Neil
>> Developer Evangelist
>> Microsoft
>>
>> http://blogs.msdn.com/jimoneil | @jimoneil
>>
>> On 10 Nov 2010 11:41:00 -0800, "Chris Pollach"
>> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jason;
>>>
>>> Yes, that will be interesting to see how SL evolves now that MS's focus
>>> for it is for Windows Phone 7. Also, exactly what will SL address that
>>> would
>>> draw web designers to SL vs HTML5. Of course, its probably too early
>>> to tell
>>> yet.
>>>
>>> On the other hand - HTML5 solves the zero plug-in and eventually full
>>> multi-browser and cross platform compatibility which is a current
>>> mandatory
>>> requirement for many web developers (as dictated by their organization
>>> today ). So if HTML5 can do 90/95%+ of everything a web application 
>>> needs
>>> without a plug-in and meets all mandatory features - I suspect that
>>> management will force us to go that route. This is already the case
>>> for the
>>> entire Canadian government as their CLF2 web standards are being 
>>> revised
>>> (proposed CLF3 standard in progress) and already states that HTML5 
>>> is the
>>> only accepted direction at this point.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards ... Chris
>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>
>>> "Jason 'Bug' Fenter [TeamSybase]" wrote in message
>>> news:4cdad9f7$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>
>>> The MS MVP response included a statement that basically said,
>>> "Silverlight is meant to do the things that HTML5 can't."
>>>
>>> When PB15 comes out, will HTML5 be able-- at that time-- to do
>>> everything that PB needs it to do?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/10/2010 8:51 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
>>>> Hi Bruce;
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the great links!
>>>>
>>>> I think this sentence summarizes it for me ... "The development of
>>>> Internet Explorer 9 should have been a wake-up call to Silverlight
>>>> developers. "
>>>>
>>>> The interesting question now is where Sybase will take PB 15 a la web?
>>>>
>>>> Regards ... Chris
>>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>>
>>>> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>>>> news:ivekd69oh691q0718ht1go3v92q6909nco@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> More follow up. Some pertinent comments from some of the pundents who
>>>> follow Microsoft.
>>>>
>>>> One Microsoft Way's evaluation of why it shouldn't have come as a
>>>> shock, but also doesn't make sense this soon:
>>>> http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/11/silverlight-html5-and-microsofts-opaque-development-strategy.ars 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That article references an Infoworld article which indicates that the
>>>> folks on the HTML5 committee are recommending that people not start
>>>> using it for some time yet:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/w3c-hold-html5-in-websites-041?page=0,0 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And there's this from Redond Review, which apparently was written
>>>> before the Bob Muglia interview was published. The author is
>>>> compaining about Microsoft's apparently lack of support for
>>>> Silverlight and it's affect on partners.
>>>>
>>>> http://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2010/11/01/protect-whats-yours.aspx 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>
0
Mark
11/12/2010 6:08:06 PM
Yeppers ... nothing like programming by the seat of your pants - ROFL!
I built quite a few applications actually in Clipper.  :-)


"Mark"  wrote in message news:4cdd8286$1@forums-1-dub...

OMG! I loved Clipper.

I think they call those the good old days. :)

On 11/12/2010 11:47 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
> Hi Adrian;
>
>  Thanks for the actual feedback on your situation.
>
>   Sybase can fill the gap with SUP - but that is great for the large 
> organization that wants to throw some big $$$$ at the problem. What small 
> to medium business need (and even large software houses that develop for 
> these platforms - but deliver to small business) are inexpensive solutions 
> that meet their business application needs on smart devices and don't blow 
> the budget.
>
>   With the development tools out there currently, I feel that we are back 
> to the days of "clipper" (the dBase compiler) - before the introduction of 
> the DataWindow.  :-)
>
>
> Regards ... Chris
> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>
> "Adrian Galvan"  wrote in message news:4cdd6b83$1@forums-1-dub...
>
> I agree... Just yesterday I got a call from another client that wants
> our business apps to run on apple products...
>
> Seems like directors everywhere are picking up Apple products and they
> want to be able to run their Windows business apps on Windows/Apple OS's
> (Mac, iPhone, iPad, Etc.) and that is only going to happen with HTML5 
> IMHO.
>
> Regards,
> Adrian
>
>
> El 12/11/2010 09:22 a.m., Chris Pollach escribió:
>> Hi Jim;
>>
>> Please go back and reread the SL threads from MS. Also see Brett's post
>> later in this thread as he has noted that direction as well. According
>> to MS - SL is really WPF/E and MS wants to enable every VS2010 developer
>> to be a WP7 developer. So their plan to expedite this is SL. The main
>> driver of course is to compete against the Apple and Android "AppStore"
>> that is just as important to the smart phone as its hardware from the
>> consumers perspective.
>>
>> BTW: I just got an iPhone3G for free last week (sweet deal I tell ya)
>> and my daughter just got a new iPhone 4G yesterday for $159. My Martial
>> Arts master and his assistant just got new Blackberries. I tell ya, this
>> is where the action is happening IMHO. I think that this area will
>> overshadow desktop application development very soon.
>>
>> What we need as developers is to be able to build HTML5 applications
>> that can run within these smart phone's web browser. I think that this
>> will precipitate exponential user demand from here on. Of course, native
>> applications on these devices would be the icing on the cake too (hello
>> Santa? <bg>)
>>
>>
>> Regards ... Chris
>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>
>> "Jim O'Neil" wrote in message
>> news:ltmod6ln0550vl296pcli6d54atr839032@4ax.com...
>>
>> "now that MS's focus for it is for Windows Phone 7" ????
>>
>> Even the Foley-ized quote (below) doesn't jump to that conclusion:
>> (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834)
>>
>> “Silverlight is our development platform for Windows Phone,” he said.
>> Silverlight also has some “sweet spots” in media and line-of-business
>> applications, he said.
>>
>> Additional posts have been made clarifying Silverlight's positioning
>> Muglia:
>> http://team.silverlight.net/announcement/pdc-and-silverlight/
>> Guthrie:
>> http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2010/11/04/silverlight-questions.aspx
>>
>>
>> "3. Silverlight is a core application development platform for
>> Windows, and it’s the development platform for Windows Phone."
>>
>> It's more correctly ONE of the development platforms for the Windows
>> Phone - and not to the exclusion of all other platforms - and the
>> version on the phone is actually Silverlight 3+ not 4 as it is for
>> 'web' development today. Silverlight is a client play not a web play,
>> not a phone play, not a desktop play.
>>
>> Silverlight and Flash are at their core NOT web technologies, they are
>> client technologies delivered (primarily) via the web and designed to
>> increase the richness of what can be delivered with standard web
>> technologies (HTML, CSS, etc.) As those technologies mature (HTML5,
>> CSS3, etc.) are there scenarios that you'll be able implement then
>> without Flash or Silverlight - absolutely; will Flash and Silverlight
>> continue to innovate to provide functionality above and beyond what
>> 'standards' dictate - absolutely. It's the cycle of innovation -
>> we've survived it before and we will agaiin.
>>
>> Honestly, I think there's a more tenuous story with WPF and
>> Silverlight than there is with Silverlight and HTML5.
>>
>> Jim O'Neil
>> Developer Evangelist
>> Microsoft
>>
>> http://blogs.msdn.com/jimoneil | @jimoneil
>>
>> On 10 Nov 2010 11:41:00 -0800, "Chris Pollach"
>> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jason;
>>>
>>> Yes, that will be interesting to see how SL evolves now that MS's focus
>>> for it is for Windows Phone 7. Also, exactly what will SL address that
>>> would
>>> draw web designers to SL vs HTML5. Of course, its probably too early
>>> to tell
>>> yet.
>>>
>>> On the other hand - HTML5 solves the zero plug-in and eventually full
>>> multi-browser and cross platform compatibility which is a current
>>> mandatory
>>> requirement for many web developers (as dictated by their organization
>>> today ). So if HTML5 can do 90/95%+ of everything a web application 
>>> needs
>>> without a plug-in and meets all mandatory features - I suspect that
>>> management will force us to go that route. This is already the case
>>> for the
>>> entire Canadian government as their CLF2 web standards are being revised
>>> (proposed CLF3 standard in progress) and already states that HTML5 is 
>>> the
>>> only accepted direction at this point.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards ... Chris
>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>
>>> "Jason 'Bug' Fenter [TeamSybase]" wrote in message
>>> news:4cdad9f7$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>
>>> The MS MVP response included a statement that basically said,
>>> "Silverlight is meant to do the things that HTML5 can't."
>>>
>>> When PB15 comes out, will HTML5 be able-- at that time-- to do
>>> everything that PB needs it to do?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/10/2010 8:51 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
>>>> Hi Bruce;
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the great links!
>>>>
>>>> I think this sentence summarizes it for me ... "The development of
>>>> Internet Explorer 9 should have been a wake-up call to Silverlight
>>>> developers. "
>>>>
>>>> The interesting question now is where Sybase will take PB 15 a la web?
>>>>
>>>> Regards ... Chris
>>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>>
>>>> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>>>> news:ivekd69oh691q0718ht1go3v92q6909nco@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> More follow up. Some pertinent comments from some of the pundents who
>>>> follow Microsoft.
>>>>
>>>> One Microsoft Way's evaluation of why it shouldn't have come as a
>>>> shock, but also doesn't make sense this soon:
>>>> http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/11/silverlight-html5-and-microsofts-opaque-development-strategy.ars
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That article references an Infoworld article which indicates that the
>>>> folks on the HTML5 committee are recommending that people not start
>>>> using it for some time yet:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/w3c-hold-html5-in-websites-041?page=0,0
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And there's this from Redond Review, which apparently was written
>>>> before the Bob Muglia interview was published. The author is
>>>> compaining about Microsoft's apparently lack of support for
>>>> Silverlight and it's affect on partners.
>>>>
>>>> http://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2010/11/01/protect-whats-yours.aspx
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
> 

0
Chris
11/12/2010 7:02:03 PM
I disagree with the "$$$$" comment.  It's true that SUP isn't really aimed 
at the guy writing a cute iPhone app to manage a wine cellar, but there is a 
pricing model that can fit the small-to-medium sized business as well...

-- 
Paul Horan[Sybase]
http://paulhoran.ulitzer.com

"Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote in message 
news:4cdd6f95@forums-1-dub...
> Hi Adrian;
>
>  Thanks for the actual feedback on your situation.
>
>   Sybase can fill the gap with SUP - but that is great for the large 
> organization that wants to throw some big $$$$ at the problem. What small 
> to medium business need (and even large software houses that develop for 
> these platforms - but deliver to small business) are inexpensive solutions 
> that meet their business application needs on smart devices and don't blow 
> the budget.
>
>   With the development tools out there currently, I feel that we are back 
> to the days of "clipper" (the dBase compiler) - before the introduction of 
> the DataWindow.  :-)
>
>
> Regards ... Chris
> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>
> "Adrian Galvan"  wrote in message news:4cdd6b83$1@forums-1-dub...
>
> I agree... Just yesterday I got a call from another client that wants
> our business apps to run on apple products...
>
> Seems like directors everywhere are picking up Apple products and they
> want to be able to run their Windows business apps on Windows/Apple OS's
> (Mac, iPhone, iPad, Etc.) and that is only going to happen with HTML5 
> IMHO.
>
> Regards,
> Adrian
>
>
> El 12/11/2010 09:22 a.m., Chris Pollach escribi�:
>> Hi Jim;
>>
>> Please go back and reread the SL threads from MS. Also see Brett's post
>> later in this thread as he has noted that direction as well. According
>> to MS - SL is really WPF/E and MS wants to enable every VS2010 developer
>> to be a WP7 developer. So their plan to expedite this is SL. The main
>> driver of course is to compete against the Apple and Android "AppStore"
>> that is just as important to the smart phone as its hardware from the
>> consumers perspective.
>>
>> BTW: I just got an iPhone3G for free last week (sweet deal I tell ya)
>> and my daughter just got a new iPhone 4G yesterday for $159. My Martial
>> Arts master and his assistant just got new Blackberries. I tell ya, this
>> is where the action is happening IMHO. I think that this area will
>> overshadow desktop application development very soon.
>>
>> What we need as developers is to be able to build HTML5 applications
>> that can run within these smart phone's web browser. I think that this
>> will precipitate exponential user demand from here on. Of course, native
>> applications on these devices would be the icing on the cake too (hello
>> Santa? <bg>)
>>
>>
>> Regards ... Chris
>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>
>> "Jim O'Neil" wrote in message
>> news:ltmod6ln0550vl296pcli6d54atr839032@4ax.com...
>>
>> "now that MS's focus for it is for Windows Phone 7" ????
>>
>> Even the Foley-ized quote (below) doesn't jump to that conclusion:
>> (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834)
>>
>> "Silverlight is our development platform for Windows Phone," he said.
>> Silverlight also has some "sweet spots" in media and line-of-business
>> applications, he said.
>>
>> Additional posts have been made clarifying Silverlight's positioning
>> Muglia:
>> http://team.silverlight.net/announcement/pdc-and-silverlight/
>> Guthrie:
>> http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2010/11/04/silverlight-questions.aspx
>>
>>
>> "3. Silverlight is a core application development platform for
>> Windows, and it's the development platform for Windows Phone."
>>
>> It's more correctly ONE of the development platforms for the Windows
>> Phone - and not to the exclusion of all other platforms - and the
>> version on the phone is actually Silverlight 3+ not 4 as it is for
>> 'web' development today. Silverlight is a client play not a web play,
>> not a phone play, not a desktop play.
>>
>> Silverlight and Flash are at their core NOT web technologies, they are
>> client technologies delivered (primarily) via the web and designed to
>> increase the richness of what can be delivered with standard web
>> technologies (HTML, CSS, etc.) As those technologies mature (HTML5,
>> CSS3, etc.) are there scenarios that you'll be able implement then
>> without Flash or Silverlight - absolutely; will Flash and Silverlight
>> continue to innovate to provide functionality above and beyond what
>> 'standards' dictate - absolutely. It's the cycle of innovation -
>> we've survived it before and we will agaiin.
>>
>> Honestly, I think there's a more tenuous story with WPF and
>> Silverlight than there is with Silverlight and HTML5.
>>
>> Jim O'Neil
>> Developer Evangelist
>> Microsoft
>>
>> http://blogs.msdn.com/jimoneil | @jimoneil
>>
>> On 10 Nov 2010 11:41:00 -0800, "Chris Pollach"
>> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jason;
>>>
>>> Yes, that will be interesting to see how SL evolves now that MS's focus
>>> for it is for Windows Phone 7. Also, exactly what will SL address that
>>> would
>>> draw web designers to SL vs HTML5. Of course, its probably too early
>>> to tell
>>> yet.
>>>
>>> On the other hand - HTML5 solves the zero plug-in and eventually full
>>> multi-browser and cross platform compatibility which is a current
>>> mandatory
>>> requirement for many web developers (as dictated by their organization
>>> today ). So if HTML5 can do 90/95%+ of everything a web application 
>>> needs
>>> without a plug-in and meets all mandatory features - I suspect that
>>> management will force us to go that route. This is already the case
>>> for the
>>> entire Canadian government as their CLF2 web standards are being revised
>>> (proposed CLF3 standard in progress) and already states that HTML5 is 
>>> the
>>> only accepted direction at this point.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards ... Chris
>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>
>>> "Jason 'Bug' Fenter [TeamSybase]" wrote in message
>>> news:4cdad9f7$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>
>>> The MS MVP response included a statement that basically said,
>>> "Silverlight is meant to do the things that HTML5 can't."
>>>
>>> When PB15 comes out, will HTML5 be able-- at that time-- to do
>>> everything that PB needs it to do?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/10/2010 8:51 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
>>>> Hi Bruce;
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the great links!
>>>>
>>>> I think this sentence summarizes it for me ... "The development of
>>>> Internet Explorer 9 should have been a wake-up call to Silverlight
>>>> developers. "
>>>>
>>>> The interesting question now is where Sybase will take PB 15 a la web?
>>>>
>>>> Regards ... Chris
>>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>>
>>>> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>>>> news:ivekd69oh691q0718ht1go3v92q6909nco@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> More follow up. Some pertinent comments from some of the pundents who
>>>> follow Microsoft.
>>>>
>>>> One Microsoft Way's evaluation of why it shouldn't have come as a
>>>> shock, but also doesn't make sense this soon:
>>>> http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/11/silverlight-html5-and-microsofts-opaque-development-strategy.ars
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That article references an Infoworld article which indicates that the
>>>> folks on the HTML5 committee are recommending that people not start
>>>> using it for some time yet:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/w3c-hold-html5-in-websites-041?page=0,0
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And there's this from Redond Review, which apparently was written
>>>> before the Bob Muglia interview was published. The author is
>>>> compaining about Microsoft's apparently lack of support for
>>>> Silverlight and it's affect on partners.
>>>>
>>>> http://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2010/11/01/protect-whats-yours.aspx
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
> 


0
Paul
11/12/2010 8:52:18 PM
    Its not just the base cost of the software ... its the license fee, 
servers, infrastructure to run it, technical people on site to install and 
maintain it, education costs, learning curve, etc. That is the total cost of 
ownership plus when you deploy it to a customer site the technical people 
required to get it off the ground. In the case of Airports for example, IT 
resources and technical people are often scarce (or non-existent) - so you 
need to provide a low-cost, turn-key application that installs effortlessly 
and runs basically by itself (old KISS principle).

   Now where these types of resources are plentiful - SUP is great IMHO!



"Paul Horan[Sybase]"  wrote in message news:4cdda902@forums-1-dub...

I disagree with the "$$$$" comment.  It's true that SUP isn't really aimed
at the guy writing a cute iPhone app to manage a wine cellar, but there is a
pricing model that can fit the small-to-medium sized business as well...

-- 
Paul Horan[Sybase]
http://paulhoran.ulitzer.com

"Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote in message
news:4cdd6f95@forums-1-dub...
> Hi Adrian;
>
>  Thanks for the actual feedback on your situation.
>
>   Sybase can fill the gap with SUP - but that is great for the large 
> organization that wants to throw some big $$$$ at the problem. What small 
> to medium business need (and even large software houses that develop for 
> these platforms - but deliver to small business) are inexpensive solutions 
> that meet their business application needs on smart devices and don't blow 
> the budget.
>
>   With the development tools out there currently, I feel that we are back 
> to the days of "clipper" (the dBase compiler) - before the introduction of 
> the DataWindow.  :-)
>
>
> Regards ... Chris
> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>
> "Adrian Galvan"  wrote in message news:4cdd6b83$1@forums-1-dub...
>
> I agree... Just yesterday I got a call from another client that wants
> our business apps to run on apple products...
>
> Seems like directors everywhere are picking up Apple products and they
> want to be able to run their Windows business apps on Windows/Apple OS's
> (Mac, iPhone, iPad, Etc.) and that is only going to happen with HTML5 
> IMHO.
>
> Regards,
> Adrian
>
>
> El 12/11/2010 09:22 a.m., Chris Pollach escribi�:
>> Hi Jim;
>>
>> Please go back and reread the SL threads from MS. Also see Brett's post
>> later in this thread as he has noted that direction as well. According
>> to MS - SL is really WPF/E and MS wants to enable every VS2010 developer
>> to be a WP7 developer. So their plan to expedite this is SL. The main
>> driver of course is to compete against the Apple and Android "AppStore"
>> that is just as important to the smart phone as its hardware from the
>> consumers perspective.
>>
>> BTW: I just got an iPhone3G for free last week (sweet deal I tell ya)
>> and my daughter just got a new iPhone 4G yesterday for $159. My Martial
>> Arts master and his assistant just got new Blackberries. I tell ya, this
>> is where the action is happening IMHO. I think that this area will
>> overshadow desktop application development very soon.
>>
>> What we need as developers is to be able to build HTML5 applications
>> that can run within these smart phone's web browser. I think that this
>> will precipitate exponential user demand from here on. Of course, native
>> applications on these devices would be the icing on the cake too (hello
>> Santa? <bg>)
>>
>>
>> Regards ... Chris
>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>
>> "Jim O'Neil" wrote in message
>> news:ltmod6ln0550vl296pcli6d54atr839032@4ax.com...
>>
>> "now that MS's focus for it is for Windows Phone 7" ????
>>
>> Even the Foley-ized quote (below) doesn't jump to that conclusion:
>> (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834)
>>
>> "Silverlight is our development platform for Windows Phone," he said.
>> Silverlight also has some "sweet spots" in media and line-of-business
>> applications, he said.
>>
>> Additional posts have been made clarifying Silverlight's positioning
>> Muglia:
>> http://team.silverlight.net/announcement/pdc-and-silverlight/
>> Guthrie:
>> http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2010/11/04/silverlight-questions.aspx
>>
>>
>> "3. Silverlight is a core application development platform for
>> Windows, and it's the development platform for Windows Phone."
>>
>> It's more correctly ONE of the development platforms for the Windows
>> Phone - and not to the exclusion of all other platforms - and the
>> version on the phone is actually Silverlight 3+ not 4 as it is for
>> 'web' development today. Silverlight is a client play not a web play,
>> not a phone play, not a desktop play.
>>
>> Silverlight and Flash are at their core NOT web technologies, they are
>> client technologies delivered (primarily) via the web and designed to
>> increase the richness of what can be delivered with standard web
>> technologies (HTML, CSS, etc.) As those technologies mature (HTML5,
>> CSS3, etc.) are there scenarios that you'll be able implement then
>> without Flash or Silverlight - absolutely; will Flash and Silverlight
>> continue to innovate to provide functionality above and beyond what
>> 'standards' dictate - absolutely. It's the cycle of innovation -
>> we've survived it before and we will agaiin.
>>
>> Honestly, I think there's a more tenuous story with WPF and
>> Silverlight than there is with Silverlight and HTML5.
>>
>> Jim O'Neil
>> Developer Evangelist
>> Microsoft
>>
>> http://blogs.msdn.com/jimoneil | @jimoneil
>>
>> On 10 Nov 2010 11:41:00 -0800, "Chris Pollach"
>> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jason;
>>>
>>> Yes, that will be interesting to see how SL evolves now that MS's focus
>>> for it is for Windows Phone 7. Also, exactly what will SL address that
>>> would
>>> draw web designers to SL vs HTML5. Of course, its probably too early
>>> to tell
>>> yet.
>>>
>>> On the other hand - HTML5 solves the zero plug-in and eventually full
>>> multi-browser and cross platform compatibility which is a current
>>> mandatory
>>> requirement for many web developers (as dictated by their organization
>>> today ). So if HTML5 can do 90/95%+ of everything a web application 
>>> needs
>>> without a plug-in and meets all mandatory features - I suspect that
>>> management will force us to go that route. This is already the case
>>> for the
>>> entire Canadian government as their CLF2 web standards are being revised
>>> (proposed CLF3 standard in progress) and already states that HTML5 is 
>>> the
>>> only accepted direction at this point.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards ... Chris
>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>
>>> "Jason 'Bug' Fenter [TeamSybase]" wrote in message
>>> news:4cdad9f7$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>
>>> The MS MVP response included a statement that basically said,
>>> "Silverlight is meant to do the things that HTML5 can't."
>>>
>>> When PB15 comes out, will HTML5 be able-- at that time-- to do
>>> everything that PB needs it to do?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/10/2010 8:51 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
>>>> Hi Bruce;
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the great links!
>>>>
>>>> I think this sentence summarizes it for me ... "The development of
>>>> Internet Explorer 9 should have been a wake-up call to Silverlight
>>>> developers. "
>>>>
>>>> The interesting question now is where Sybase will take PB 15 a la web?
>>>>
>>>> Regards ... Chris
>>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>>
>>>> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>>>> news:ivekd69oh691q0718ht1go3v92q6909nco@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> More follow up. Some pertinent comments from some of the pundents who
>>>> follow Microsoft.
>>>>
>>>> One Microsoft Way's evaluation of why it shouldn't have come as a
>>>> shock, but also doesn't make sense this soon:
>>>> http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/11/silverlight-html5-and-microsofts-opaque-development-strategy.ars
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That article references an Infoworld article which indicates that the
>>>> folks on the HTML5 committee are recommending that people not start
>>>> using it for some time yet:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/w3c-hold-html5-in-websites-041?page=0,0
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And there's this from Redond Review, which apparently was written
>>>> before the Bob Muglia interview was published. The author is
>>>> compaining about Microsoft's apparently lack of support for
>>>> Silverlight and it's affect on partners.
>>>>
>>>> http://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2010/11/01/protect-whats-yours.aspx
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>

0
Chris
11/12/2010 9:11:20 PM
That statement just illustrates your complete lack of understanding of the 
software.

-- 
Paul Horan[Sybase]
http://paulhoran.ulitzer.com

"Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote in message 
news:4cddad78@forums-1-dub...
>    Its not just the base cost of the software ... its the license fee, 
> servers, infrastructure to run it, technical people on site to install and 
> maintain it, education costs, learning curve, etc. That is the total cost 
> of ownership plus when you deploy it to a customer site the technical 
> people required to get it off the ground. In the case of Airports for 
> example, IT resources and technical people are often scarce (or 
> non-existent) - so you need to provide a low-cost, turn-key application 
> that installs effortlessly and runs basically by itself (old KISS 
> principle).
>
>   Now where these types of resources are plentiful - SUP is great IMHO!
>
>
>
> "Paul Horan[Sybase]"  wrote in message news:4cdda902@forums-1-dub...
>
> I disagree with the "$$$$" comment.  It's true that SUP isn't really aimed
> at the guy writing a cute iPhone app to manage a wine cellar, but there is 
> a
> pricing model that can fit the small-to-medium sized business as well...
>
> -- 
> Paul Horan[Sybase]
> http://paulhoran.ulitzer.com
>
> "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote in message
> news:4cdd6f95@forums-1-dub...
>> Hi Adrian;
>>
>>  Thanks for the actual feedback on your situation.
>>
>>   Sybase can fill the gap with SUP - but that is great for the large 
>> organization that wants to throw some big $$$$ at the problem. What small 
>> to medium business need (and even large software houses that develop for 
>> these platforms - but deliver to small business) are inexpensive 
>> solutions that meet their business application needs on smart devices and 
>> don't blow the budget.
>>
>>   With the development tools out there currently, I feel that we are back 
>> to the days of "clipper" (the dBase compiler) - before the introduction 
>> of the DataWindow.  :-)
>>
>>
>> Regards ... Chris
>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>
>> "Adrian Galvan"  wrote in message news:4cdd6b83$1@forums-1-dub...
>>
>> I agree... Just yesterday I got a call from another client that wants
>> our business apps to run on apple products...
>>
>> Seems like directors everywhere are picking up Apple products and they
>> want to be able to run their Windows business apps on Windows/Apple OS's
>> (Mac, iPhone, iPad, Etc.) and that is only going to happen with HTML5 
>> IMHO.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Adrian
>>
>>
>> El 12/11/2010 09:22 a.m., Chris Pollach escribi�:
>>> Hi Jim;
>>>
>>> Please go back and reread the SL threads from MS. Also see Brett's post
>>> later in this thread as he has noted that direction as well. According
>>> to MS - SL is really WPF/E and MS wants to enable every VS2010 developer
>>> to be a WP7 developer. So their plan to expedite this is SL. The main
>>> driver of course is to compete against the Apple and Android "AppStore"
>>> that is just as important to the smart phone as its hardware from the
>>> consumers perspective.
>>>
>>> BTW: I just got an iPhone3G for free last week (sweet deal I tell ya)
>>> and my daughter just got a new iPhone 4G yesterday for $159. My Martial
>>> Arts master and his assistant just got new Blackberries. I tell ya, this
>>> is where the action is happening IMHO. I think that this area will
>>> overshadow desktop application development very soon.
>>>
>>> What we need as developers is to be able to build HTML5 applications
>>> that can run within these smart phone's web browser. I think that this
>>> will precipitate exponential user demand from here on. Of course, native
>>> applications on these devices would be the icing on the cake too (hello
>>> Santa? <bg>)
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards ... Chris
>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>
>>> "Jim O'Neil" wrote in message
>>> news:ltmod6ln0550vl296pcli6d54atr839032@4ax.com...
>>>
>>> "now that MS's focus for it is for Windows Phone 7" ????
>>>
>>> Even the Foley-ized quote (below) doesn't jump to that conclusion:
>>> (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834)
>>>
>>> "Silverlight is our development platform for Windows Phone," he said.
>>> Silverlight also has some "sweet spots" in media and line-of-business
>>> applications, he said.
>>>
>>> Additional posts have been made clarifying Silverlight's positioning
>>> Muglia:
>>> http://team.silverlight.net/announcement/pdc-and-silverlight/
>>> Guthrie:
>>> http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2010/11/04/silverlight-questions.aspx
>>>
>>>
>>> "3. Silverlight is a core application development platform for
>>> Windows, and it's the development platform for Windows Phone."
>>>
>>> It's more correctly ONE of the development platforms for the Windows
>>> Phone - and not to the exclusion of all other platforms - and the
>>> version on the phone is actually Silverlight 3+ not 4 as it is for
>>> 'web' development today. Silverlight is a client play not a web play,
>>> not a phone play, not a desktop play.
>>>
>>> Silverlight and Flash are at their core NOT web technologies, they are
>>> client technologies delivered (primarily) via the web and designed to
>>> increase the richness of what can be delivered with standard web
>>> technologies (HTML, CSS, etc.) As those technologies mature (HTML5,
>>> CSS3, etc.) are there scenarios that you'll be able implement then
>>> without Flash or Silverlight - absolutely; will Flash and Silverlight
>>> continue to innovate to provide functionality above and beyond what
>>> 'standards' dictate - absolutely. It's the cycle of innovation -
>>> we've survived it before and we will agaiin.
>>>
>>> Honestly, I think there's a more tenuous story with WPF and
>>> Silverlight than there is with Silverlight and HTML5.
>>>
>>> Jim O'Neil
>>> Developer Evangelist
>>> Microsoft
>>>
>>> http://blogs.msdn.com/jimoneil | @jimoneil
>>>
>>> On 10 Nov 2010 11:41:00 -0800, "Chris Pollach"
>>> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Jason;
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that will be interesting to see how SL evolves now that MS's focus
>>>> for it is for Windows Phone 7. Also, exactly what will SL address that
>>>> would
>>>> draw web designers to SL vs HTML5. Of course, its probably too early
>>>> to tell
>>>> yet.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand - HTML5 solves the zero plug-in and eventually full
>>>> multi-browser and cross platform compatibility which is a current
>>>> mandatory
>>>> requirement for many web developers (as dictated by their organization
>>>> today ). So if HTML5 can do 90/95%+ of everything a web application 
>>>> needs
>>>> without a plug-in and meets all mandatory features - I suspect that
>>>> management will force us to go that route. This is already the case
>>>> for the
>>>> entire Canadian government as their CLF2 web standards are being 
>>>> revised
>>>> (proposed CLF3 standard in progress) and already states that HTML5 is 
>>>> the
>>>> only accepted direction at this point.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards ... Chris
>>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>>
>>>> "Jason 'Bug' Fenter [TeamSybase]" wrote in message
>>>> news:4cdad9f7$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>
>>>> The MS MVP response included a statement that basically said,
>>>> "Silverlight is meant to do the things that HTML5 can't."
>>>>
>>>> When PB15 comes out, will HTML5 be able-- at that time-- to do
>>>> everything that PB needs it to do?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 11/10/2010 8:51 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
>>>>> Hi Bruce;
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the great links!
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this sentence summarizes it for me ... "The development of
>>>>> Internet Explorer 9 should have been a wake-up call to Silverlight
>>>>> developers. "
>>>>>
>>>>> The interesting question now is where Sybase will take PB 15 a la web?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards ... Chris
>>>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>>>
>>>>> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>>>>> news:ivekd69oh691q0718ht1go3v92q6909nco@4ax.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> More follow up. Some pertinent comments from some of the pundents who
>>>>> follow Microsoft.
>>>>>
>>>>> One Microsoft Way's evaluation of why it shouldn't have come as a
>>>>> shock, but also doesn't make sense this soon:
>>>>> http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/11/silverlight-html5-and-microsofts-opaque-development-strategy.ars
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That article references an Infoworld article which indicates that the
>>>>> folks on the HTML5 committee are recommending that people not start
>>>>> using it for some time yet:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/w3c-hold-html5-in-websites-041?page=0,0
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And there's this from Redond Review, which apparently was written
>>>>> before the Bob Muglia interview was published. The author is
>>>>> compaining about Microsoft's apparently lack of support for
>>>>> Silverlight and it's affect on partners.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2010/11/01/protect-whats-yours.aspx
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
> 


0
Paul
11/12/2010 10:47:23 PM
OK ... so it does not require any software and runs on virtual hardware - 
oh, and its free too.
I will tell that to Transport Canada who are piloting it currently.  :-)


"Paul Horan[Sybase]"  wrote in message news:4cddc3fb$1@forums-1-dub...

That statement just illustrates your complete lack of understanding of the
software.

-- 
Paul Horan[Sybase]
http://paulhoran.ulitzer.com

"Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote in message
news:4cddad78@forums-1-dub...
>    Its not just the base cost of the software ... its the license fee, 
> servers, infrastructure to run it, technical people on site to install and 
> maintain it, education costs, learning curve, etc. That is the total cost 
> of ownership plus when you deploy it to a customer site the technical 
> people required to get it off the ground. In the case of Airports for 
> example, IT resources and technical people are often scarce (or 
> non-existent) - so you need to provide a low-cost, turn-key application 
> that installs effortlessly and runs basically by itself (old KISS 
> principle).
>
>   Now where these types of resources are plentiful - SUP is great IMHO!
>
>
>
> "Paul Horan[Sybase]"  wrote in message news:4cdda902@forums-1-dub...
>
> I disagree with the "$$$$" comment.  It's true that SUP isn't really aimed
> at the guy writing a cute iPhone app to manage a wine cellar, but there is 
> a
> pricing model that can fit the small-to-medium sized business as well...
>
> -- 
> Paul Horan[Sybase]
> http://paulhoran.ulitzer.com
>
> "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote in message
> news:4cdd6f95@forums-1-dub...
>> Hi Adrian;
>>
>>  Thanks for the actual feedback on your situation.
>>
>>   Sybase can fill the gap with SUP - but that is great for the large 
>> organization that wants to throw some big $$$$ at the problem. What small 
>> to medium business need (and even large software houses that develop for 
>> these platforms - but deliver to small business) are inexpensive 
>> solutions that meet their business application needs on smart devices and 
>> don't blow the budget.
>>
>>   With the development tools out there currently, I feel that we are back 
>> to the days of "clipper" (the dBase compiler) - before the introduction 
>> of the DataWindow.  :-)
>>
>>
>> Regards ... Chris
>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>
>> "Adrian Galvan"  wrote in message news:4cdd6b83$1@forums-1-dub...
>>
>> I agree... Just yesterday I got a call from another client that wants
>> our business apps to run on apple products...
>>
>> Seems like directors everywhere are picking up Apple products and they
>> want to be able to run their Windows business apps on Windows/Apple OS's
>> (Mac, iPhone, iPad, Etc.) and that is only going to happen with HTML5 
>> IMHO.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Adrian
>>
>>
>> El 12/11/2010 09:22 a.m., Chris Pollach escribi�:
>>> Hi Jim;
>>>
>>> Please go back and reread the SL threads from MS. Also see Brett's post
>>> later in this thread as he has noted that direction as well. According
>>> to MS - SL is really WPF/E and MS wants to enable every VS2010 developer
>>> to be a WP7 developer. So their plan to expedite this is SL. The main
>>> driver of course is to compete against the Apple and Android "AppStore"
>>> that is just as important to the smart phone as its hardware from the
>>> consumers perspective.
>>>
>>> BTW: I just got an iPhone3G for free last week (sweet deal I tell ya)
>>> and my daughter just got a new iPhone 4G yesterday for $159. My Martial
>>> Arts master and his assistant just got new Blackberries. I tell ya, this
>>> is where the action is happening IMHO. I think that this area will
>>> overshadow desktop application development very soon.
>>>
>>> What we need as developers is to be able to build HTML5 applications
>>> that can run within these smart phone's web browser. I think that this
>>> will precipitate exponential user demand from here on. Of course, native
>>> applications on these devices would be the icing on the cake too (hello
>>> Santa? <bg>)
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards ... Chris
>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>
>>> "Jim O'Neil" wrote in message
>>> news:ltmod6ln0550vl296pcli6d54atr839032@4ax.com...
>>>
>>> "now that MS's focus for it is for Windows Phone 7" ????
>>>
>>> Even the Foley-ized quote (below) doesn't jump to that conclusion:
>>> (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834)
>>>
>>> "Silverlight is our development platform for Windows Phone," he said.
>>> Silverlight also has some "sweet spots" in media and line-of-business
>>> applications, he said.
>>>
>>> Additional posts have been made clarifying Silverlight's positioning
>>> Muglia:
>>> http://team.silverlight.net/announcement/pdc-and-silverlight/
>>> Guthrie:
>>> http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2010/11/04/silverlight-questions.aspx
>>>
>>>
>>> "3. Silverlight is a core application development platform for
>>> Windows, and it's the development platform for Windows Phone."
>>>
>>> It's more correctly ONE of the development platforms for the Windows
>>> Phone - and not to the exclusion of all other platforms - and the
>>> version on the phone is actually Silverlight 3+ not 4 as it is for
>>> 'web' development today. Silverlight is a client play not a web play,
>>> not a phone play, not a desktop play.
>>>
>>> Silverlight and Flash are at their core NOT web technologies, they are
>>> client technologies delivered (primarily) via the web and designed to
>>> increase the richness of what can be delivered with standard web
>>> technologies (HTML, CSS, etc.) As those technologies mature (HTML5,
>>> CSS3, etc.) are there scenarios that you'll be able implement then
>>> without Flash or Silverlight - absolutely; will Flash and Silverlight
>>> continue to innovate to provide functionality above and beyond what
>>> 'standards' dictate - absolutely. It's the cycle of innovation -
>>> we've survived it before and we will agaiin.
>>>
>>> Honestly, I think there's a more tenuous story with WPF and
>>> Silverlight than there is with Silverlight and HTML5.
>>>
>>> Jim O'Neil
>>> Developer Evangelist
>>> Microsoft
>>>
>>> http://blogs.msdn.com/jimoneil | @jimoneil
>>>
>>> On 10 Nov 2010 11:41:00 -0800, "Chris Pollach"
>>> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Jason;
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that will be interesting to see how SL evolves now that MS's focus
>>>> for it is for Windows Phone 7. Also, exactly what will SL address that
>>>> would
>>>> draw web designers to SL vs HTML5. Of course, its probably too early
>>>> to tell
>>>> yet.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand - HTML5 solves the zero plug-in and eventually full
>>>> multi-browser and cross platform compatibility which is a current
>>>> mandatory
>>>> requirement for many web developers (as dictated by their organization
>>>> today ). So if HTML5 can do 90/95%+ of everything a web application 
>>>> needs
>>>> without a plug-in and meets all mandatory features - I suspect that
>>>> management will force us to go that route. This is already the case
>>>> for the
>>>> entire Canadian government as their CLF2 web standards are being 
>>>> revised
>>>> (proposed CLF3 standard in progress) and already states that HTML5 is 
>>>> the
>>>> only accepted direction at this point.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards ... Chris
>>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>>
>>>> "Jason 'Bug' Fenter [TeamSybase]" wrote in message
>>>> news:4cdad9f7$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>
>>>> The MS MVP response included a statement that basically said,
>>>> "Silverlight is meant to do the things that HTML5 can't."
>>>>
>>>> When PB15 comes out, will HTML5 be able-- at that time-- to do
>>>> everything that PB needs it to do?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 11/10/2010 8:51 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
>>>>> Hi Bruce;
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the great links!
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this sentence summarizes it for me ... "The development of
>>>>> Internet Explorer 9 should have been a wake-up call to Silverlight
>>>>> developers. "
>>>>>
>>>>> The interesting question now is where Sybase will take PB 15 a la web?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards ... Chris
>>>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>>>
>>>>> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>>>>> news:ivekd69oh691q0718ht1go3v92q6909nco@4ax.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> More follow up. Some pertinent comments from some of the pundents who
>>>>> follow Microsoft.
>>>>>
>>>>> One Microsoft Way's evaluation of why it shouldn't have come as a
>>>>> shock, but also doesn't make sense this soon:
>>>>> http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/11/silverlight-html5-and-microsofts-opaque-development-strategy.ars
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That article references an Infoworld article which indicates that the
>>>>> folks on the HTML5 committee are recommending that people not start
>>>>> using it for some time yet:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/w3c-hold-html5-in-websites-041?page=0,0
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And there's this from Redond Review, which apparently was written
>>>>> before the Bob Muglia interview was published. The author is
>>>>> compaining about Microsoft's apparently lack of support for
>>>>> Silverlight and it's affect on partners.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2010/11/01/protect-whats-yours.aspx
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>

0
Chris
11/12/2010 11:52:50 PM
Hi Chris.-

That is exactly where we are coming from... We are a mid size software 
company that targets mid size companies in Mexico, let me remind you mid 
size companies down here are not what you would call mid size companies 
in the US. And money is a big ISSUE. Down here they want everything out 
of the box ... That was why we went with PowerSoft back en 95. We are 
talking companies with sales in the range from 15 - 50 USCy.

Regards,
Adrian


El 12/11/2010 10:47 a.m., Chris Pollach escribió:
> Hi Adrian;
>
> Thanks for the actual feedback on your situation.
>
> Sybase can fill the gap with SUP - but that is great for the large
> organization that wants to throw some big $$$$ at the problem. What
> small to medium business need (and even large software houses that
> develop for these platforms - but deliver to small business) are
> inexpensive solutions that meet their business application needs on
> smart devices and don't blow the budget.
>
> With the development tools out there currently, I feel that we are back
> to the days of "clipper" (the dBase compiler) - before the introduction
> of the DataWindow. :-)
>
>
> Regards ... Chris
> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>
> "Adrian Galvan" wrote in message news:4cdd6b83$1@forums-1-dub...
>
> I agree... Just yesterday I got a call from another client that wants
> our business apps to run on apple products...
>
> Seems like directors everywhere are picking up Apple products and they
> want to be able to run their Windows business apps on Windows/Apple OS's
> (Mac, iPhone, iPad, Etc.) and that is only going to happen with HTML5 IMHO.
>
> Regards,
> Adrian
>
>
> El 12/11/2010 09:22 a.m., Chris Pollach escribió:
>> Hi Jim;
>>
>> Please go back and reread the SL threads from MS. Also see Brett's post
>> later in this thread as he has noted that direction as well. According
>> to MS - SL is really WPF/E and MS wants to enable every VS2010 developer
>> to be a WP7 developer. So their plan to expedite this is SL. The main
>> driver of course is to compete against the Apple and Android "AppStore"
>> that is just as important to the smart phone as its hardware from the
>> consumers perspective.
>>
>> BTW: I just got an iPhone3G for free last week (sweet deal I tell ya)
>> and my daughter just got a new iPhone 4G yesterday for $159. My Martial
>> Arts master and his assistant just got new Blackberries. I tell ya, this
>> is where the action is happening IMHO. I think that this area will
>> overshadow desktop application development very soon.
>>
>> What we need as developers is to be able to build HTML5 applications
>> that can run within these smart phone's web browser. I think that this
>> will precipitate exponential user demand from here on. Of course, native
>> applications on these devices would be the icing on the cake too (hello
>> Santa? <bg>)
>>
>>
>> Regards ... Chris
>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>
>> "Jim O'Neil" wrote in message
>> news:ltmod6ln0550vl296pcli6d54atr839032@4ax.com...
>>
>> "now that MS's focus for it is for Windows Phone 7" ????
>>
>> Even the Foley-ized quote (below) doesn't jump to that conclusion:
>> (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834)
>>
>>
>> “Silverlight is our development platform for Windows Phone,” he said.
>> Silverlight also has some “sweet spots” in media and line-of-business
>> applications, he said.
>>
>> Additional posts have been made clarifying Silverlight's positioning
>> Muglia:
>> http://team.silverlight.net/announcement/pdc-and-silverlight/
>> Guthrie:
>> http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2010/11/04/silverlight-questions.aspx
>>
>>
>>
>> "3. Silverlight is a core application development platform for
>> Windows, and it’s the development platform for Windows Phone."
>>
>> It's more correctly ONE of the development platforms for the Windows
>> Phone - and not to the exclusion of all other platforms - and the
>> version on the phone is actually Silverlight 3+ not 4 as it is for
>> 'web' development today. Silverlight is a client play not a web play,
>> not a phone play, not a desktop play.
>>
>> Silverlight and Flash are at their core NOT web technologies, they are
>> client technologies delivered (primarily) via the web and designed to
>> increase the richness of what can be delivered with standard web
>> technologies (HTML, CSS, etc.) As those technologies mature (HTML5,
>> CSS3, etc.) are there scenarios that you'll be able implement then
>> without Flash or Silverlight - absolutely; will Flash and Silverlight
>> continue to innovate to provide functionality above and beyond what
>> 'standards' dictate - absolutely. It's the cycle of innovation -
>> we've survived it before and we will agaiin.
>>
>> Honestly, I think there's a more tenuous story with WPF and
>> Silverlight than there is with Silverlight and HTML5.
>>
>> Jim O'Neil
>> Developer Evangelist
>> Microsoft
>>
>> http://blogs.msdn.com/jimoneil | @jimoneil
>>
>> On 10 Nov 2010 11:41:00 -0800, "Chris Pollach"
>> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jason;
>>>
>>> Yes, that will be interesting to see how SL evolves now that MS's focus
>>> for it is for Windows Phone 7. Also, exactly what will SL address that
>>> would
>>> draw web designers to SL vs HTML5. Of course, its probably too early
>>> to tell
>>> yet.
>>>
>>> On the other hand - HTML5 solves the zero plug-in and eventually full
>>> multi-browser and cross platform compatibility which is a current
>>> mandatory
>>> requirement for many web developers (as dictated by their organization
>>> today ). So if HTML5 can do 90/95%+ of everything a web application
>>> needs
>>> without a plug-in and meets all mandatory features - I suspect that
>>> management will force us to go that route. This is already the case
>>> for the
>>> entire Canadian government as their CLF2 web standards are being revised
>>> (proposed CLF3 standard in progress) and already states that HTML5 is
>>> the
>>> only accepted direction at this point.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards ... Chris
>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>
>>> "Jason 'Bug' Fenter [TeamSybase]" wrote in message
>>> news:4cdad9f7$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>
>>> The MS MVP response included a statement that basically said,
>>> "Silverlight is meant to do the things that HTML5 can't."
>>>
>>> When PB15 comes out, will HTML5 be able-- at that time-- to do
>>> everything that PB needs it to do?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/10/2010 8:51 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
>>>> Hi Bruce;
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the great links!
>>>>
>>>> I think this sentence summarizes it for me ... "The development of
>>>> Internet Explorer 9 should have been a wake-up call to Silverlight
>>>> developers. "
>>>>
>>>> The interesting question now is where Sybase will take PB 15 a la web?
>>>>
>>>> Regards ... Chris
>>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>>
>>>> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>>>> news:ivekd69oh691q0718ht1go3v92q6909nco@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> More follow up. Some pertinent comments from some of the pundents who
>>>> follow Microsoft.
>>>>
>>>> One Microsoft Way's evaluation of why it shouldn't have come as a
>>>> shock, but also doesn't make sense this soon:
>>>> http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/11/silverlight-html5-and-microsofts-opaque-development-strategy.ars
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That article references an Infoworld article which indicates that the
>>>> folks on the HTML5 committee are recommending that people not start
>>>> using it for some time yet:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/w3c-hold-html5-in-websites-041?page=0,0
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And there's this from Redond Review, which apparently was written
>>>> before the Bob Muglia interview was published. The author is
>>>> compaining about Microsoft's apparently lack of support for
>>>> Silverlight and it's affect on partners.
>>>>
>>>> http://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2010/11/01/protect-whats-yours.aspx
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>
0
Adrian
11/13/2010 11:37:22 PM
Hi Adrian;

  Thanks for the insight in your area.

     Many of the airports that we deal with, with the AirMan system are 
small town based. These are not big central airports like Miami, Portland, 
NY, Toronto where we do have AM installed. Instead, these are airports that 
can support small jet aircraft and are also small volume. These airports 
typically have one or two controllers, one main runway, etc - a good example 
that we installed AM in this week is North Bay, Ontario. Many of the other 
26 airports where AM is installed in Canada are smaller than that. So there 
information system need to be turnkey, out-of-the-box and low cost because 
they do *not* have any IT staff. The system support is often farmed out to 
local IT firms on a ticket item basis. So each ticket represents a cost 
over-head and their IT budgets are also very small.

    However, add up the small airports and the larger ones and you get quite 
a large install base for AM overall in Canada. Now apply the same model to 
the US as well an AM has the same challenges there as well. Even small air 
force base installations follow the same model and cost consciousness.  So 
we have to supply very low cost and ease of use in order to attract and 
maintain these clients. We need to do this with one development tool that 
FULLY supports mobile, native, web and virtual environments and their 
related devices. So we have used PocketBuilder, PowerBuilder and SQL 
Anywhere thus far. However, the web direction and in particular touchpad 
technologies, smart phones and various browser technology demands are 
growing rapidly. Sybase needs to empower the PB Family of products to 
support this or software vendors like Volairus (that makes AM) will be 
forced to look at other development tool avenues.

Regards ... Chris
President: OSUG / STD Inc.
Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass

"Adrian Galvan"  wrote in message news:4cdf2132$1@forums-1-dub...

Hi Chris.-

That is exactly where we are coming from... We are a mid size software
company that targets mid size companies in Mexico, let me remind you mid
size companies down here are not what you would call mid size companies
in the US. And money is a big ISSUE. Down here they want everything out
of the box ... That was why we went with PowerSoft back en 95. We are
talking companies with sales in the range from 15 - 50 USCy.

Regards,
Adrian


El 12/11/2010 10:47 a.m., Chris Pollach escribió:
> Hi Adrian;
>
> Thanks for the actual feedback on your situation.
>
> Sybase can fill the gap with SUP - but that is great for the large
> organization that wants to throw some big $$$$ at the problem. What
> small to medium business need (and even large software houses that
> develop for these platforms - but deliver to small business) are
> inexpensive solutions that meet their business application needs on
> smart devices and don't blow the budget.
>
> With the development tools out there currently, I feel that we are back
> to the days of "clipper" (the dBase compiler) - before the introduction
> of the DataWindow. :-)
>
>
> Regards ... Chris
> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>
> "Adrian Galvan" wrote in message news:4cdd6b83$1@forums-1-dub...
>
> I agree... Just yesterday I got a call from another client that wants
> our business apps to run on apple products...
>
> Seems like directors everywhere are picking up Apple products and they
> want to be able to run their Windows business apps on Windows/Apple OS's
> (Mac, iPhone, iPad, Etc.) and that is only going to happen with HTML5 
> IMHO.
>
> Regards,
> Adrian
>
>
> El 12/11/2010 09:22 a.m., Chris Pollach escribió:
>> Hi Jim;
>>
>> Please go back and reread the SL threads from MS. Also see Brett's post
>> later in this thread as he has noted that direction as well. According
>> to MS - SL is really WPF/E and MS wants to enable every VS2010 developer
>> to be a WP7 developer. So their plan to expedite this is SL. The main
>> driver of course is to compete against the Apple and Android "AppStore"
>> that is just as important to the smart phone as its hardware from the
>> consumers perspective.
>>
>> BTW: I just got an iPhone3G for free last week (sweet deal I tell ya)
>> and my daughter just got a new iPhone 4G yesterday for $159. My Martial
>> Arts master and his assistant just got new Blackberries. I tell ya, this
>> is where the action is happening IMHO. I think that this area will
>> overshadow desktop application development very soon.
>>
>> What we need as developers is to be able to build HTML5 applications
>> that can run within these smart phone's web browser. I think that this
>> will precipitate exponential user demand from here on. Of course, native
>> applications on these devices would be the icing on the cake too (hello
>> Santa? <bg>)
>>
>>
>> Regards ... Chris
>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>
>> "Jim O'Neil" wrote in message
>> news:ltmod6ln0550vl296pcli6d54atr839032@4ax.com...
>>
>> "now that MS's focus for it is for Windows Phone 7" ????
>>
>> Even the Foley-ized quote (below) doesn't jump to that conclusion:
>> (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834)
>>
>>
>> “Silverlight is our development platform for Windows Phone,” he said.
>> Silverlight also has some “sweet spots” in media and line-of-business
>> applications, he said.
>>
>> Additional posts have been made clarifying Silverlight's positioning
>> Muglia:
>> http://team.silverlight.net/announcement/pdc-and-silverlight/
>> Guthrie:
>> http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2010/11/04/silverlight-questions.aspx
>>
>>
>>
>> "3. Silverlight is a core application development platform for
>> Windows, and it’s the development platform for Windows Phone."
>>
>> It's more correctly ONE of the development platforms for the Windows
>> Phone - and not to the exclusion of all other platforms - and the
>> version on the phone is actually Silverlight 3+ not 4 as it is for
>> 'web' development today. Silverlight is a client play not a web play,
>> not a phone play, not a desktop play.
>>
>> Silverlight and Flash are at their core NOT web technologies, they are
>> client technologies delivered (primarily) via the web and designed to
>> increase the richness of what can be delivered with standard web
>> technologies (HTML, CSS, etc.) As those technologies mature (HTML5,
>> CSS3, etc.) are there scenarios that you'll be able implement then
>> without Flash or Silverlight - absolutely; will Flash and Silverlight
>> continue to innovate to provide functionality above and beyond what
>> 'standards' dictate - absolutely. It's the cycle of innovation -
>> we've survived it before and we will agaiin.
>>
>> Honestly, I think there's a more tenuous story with WPF and
>> Silverlight than there is with Silverlight and HTML5.
>>
>> Jim O'Neil
>> Developer Evangelist
>> Microsoft
>>
>> http://blogs.msdn.com/jimoneil | @jimoneil
>>
>> On 10 Nov 2010 11:41:00 -0800, "Chris Pollach"
>> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jason;
>>>
>>> Yes, that will be interesting to see how SL evolves now that MS's focus
>>> for it is for Windows Phone 7. Also, exactly what will SL address that
>>> would
>>> draw web designers to SL vs HTML5. Of course, its probably too early
>>> to tell
>>> yet.
>>>
>>> On the other hand - HTML5 solves the zero plug-in and eventually full
>>> multi-browser and cross platform compatibility which is a current
>>> mandatory
>>> requirement for many web developers (as dictated by their organization
>>> today ). So if HTML5 can do 90/95%+ of everything a web application
>>> needs
>>> without a plug-in and meets all mandatory features - I suspect that
>>> management will force us to go that route. This is already the case
>>> for the
>>> entire Canadian government as their CLF2 web standards are being revised
>>> (proposed CLF3 standard in progress) and already states that HTML5 is
>>> the
>>> only accepted direction at this point.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards ... Chris
>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>
>>> "Jason 'Bug' Fenter [TeamSybase]" wrote in message
>>> news:4cdad9f7$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>
>>> The MS MVP response included a statement that basically said,
>>> "Silverlight is meant to do the things that HTML5 can't."
>>>
>>> When PB15 comes out, will HTML5 be able-- at that time-- to do
>>> everything that PB needs it to do?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/10/2010 8:51 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
>>>> Hi Bruce;
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the great links!
>>>>
>>>> I think this sentence summarizes it for me ... "The development of
>>>> Internet Explorer 9 should have been a wake-up call to Silverlight
>>>> developers. "
>>>>
>>>> The interesting question now is where Sybase will take PB 15 a la web?
>>>>
>>>> Regards ... Chris
>>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>>
>>>> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>>>> news:ivekd69oh691q0718ht1go3v92q6909nco@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> More follow up. Some pertinent comments from some of the pundents who
>>>> follow Microsoft.
>>>>
>>>> One Microsoft Way's evaluation of why it shouldn't have come as a
>>>> shock, but also doesn't make sense this soon:
>>>> http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/11/silverlight-html5-and-microsofts-opaque-development-strategy.ars
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That article references an Infoworld article which indicates that the
>>>> folks on the HTML5 committee are recommending that people not start
>>>> using it for some time yet:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/w3c-hold-html5-in-websites-041?page=0,0
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And there's this from Redond Review, which apparently was written
>>>> before the Bob Muglia interview was published. The author is
>>>> compaining about Microsoft's apparently lack of support for
>>>> Silverlight and it's affect on partners.
>>>>
>>>> http://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2010/11/01/protect-whats-yours.aspx
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
> 

0
Chris
11/14/2010 2:29:48 PM
Interesting logic, Chris.  

Yes, the fact that Silverlight is a primary development tool for the
phone results in the 'spiel' that every VS2010 developer is a WP7
developer.   Just as the 'spiel' that you can deploy WebForm, WinForm,
and WPF apps in PowerBuilder results in the 'spiel' that every
PowerBuilder developer is a .NET developer.

NOT TO THE EXCLUSION OF ALL ELSE.   

We just had the Windows Phone 7 launch, wouldn't you expect there to
be a lot of emphasis on that platform?  And the ease of and
familiarity in developing for it in relation to Objective-C and the
Android?   I suppose in some ways Microsoft messaging has failed here
since people that have been in the industry for a while, such as
yourself, aren't seeing the forest for the trees as well.

As for HTML5 vs. native apps, that's an interesting scenario.  There
has been a W3C spec under development for mobile widgets (HTML + CSS +
JS) http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets/, which (ironically?) is supported in
Windows Mobile 6.5 (not HTML5 based though, of course) - yet native
apps on the phone still seems to be the standard.

Maybe that will change once HTML5 matures, and certainly it's easier
to write than Objective-C, but unless there's access to the native
functionality of the phone (and that's developing too), IMHO, it will
always be a 2nd class citizen.  The preponderence of native apps has
set a bar for the phone experience, a mobile web experience has got to
reach that bar before the consumer base will accept it.



On 12 Nov 2010 07:22:35 -0800, "Chris Pollach"
<cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:

>Hi Jim;
>
>  Please go back and reread the SL threads from MS. Also see Brett's post 
>later in this thread as he has noted that direction as well. According to 
>MS - SL is really WPF/E and MS wants to enable every VS2010 developer to be 
>a WP7 developer. So their plan to expedite this is SL. The main driver of 
>course is to compete against the Apple and Android "AppStore" that is just 
>as important to the smart phone as its hardware from the consumers 
>perspective.
>
>  BTW: I just got an iPhone3G for free last week (sweet deal I tell ya) and 
>my daughter just got a new iPhone 4G yesterday for $159. My Martial Arts 
>master and his assistant just got new Blackberries. I tell ya, this is where 
>the action is happening IMHO. I think that this area will overshadow desktop 
>application development very soon.
>
>  What we need as developers is to be able to build HTML5 applications that 
>can run within these smart phone's web browser. I think that this will 
>precipitate exponential user demand from here on. Of course, native 
>applications on these devices would be the icing on the cake too (hello 
>Santa? <bg>)
>
>
>Regards ... Chris
>President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>
>"Jim O'Neil"  wrote in message 
>news:ltmod6ln0550vl296pcli6d54atr839032@4ax.com...
>
>"now that MS's focus for it is for Windows Phone 7"  ????
>
>Even the Foley-ized quote (below) doesn't jump to that conclusion:
>(http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834)
>�Silverlight is our development platform for Windows Phone,� he said.
>Silverlight also has some �sweet spots� in media and line-of-business
>applications, he said.
>
>Additional posts have been made clarifying Silverlight's positioning
>Muglia:
>http://team.silverlight.net/announcement/pdc-and-silverlight/
>Guthrie:
>http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2010/11/04/silverlight-questions.aspx
>
>"3.  Silverlight is a core application development platform for
>Windows, and it�s the development platform for Windows Phone."
>
>It's more correctly ONE of the development platforms for the Windows
>Phone - and not to the exclusion of all other platforms - and the
>version on the phone is actually Silverlight 3+ not 4 as it is for
>'web' development today. Silverlight is a client play not a web play,
>not a phone play, not a desktop play.
>
>Silverlight and Flash are at their core NOT web technologies, they are
>client technologies delivered (primarily) via the web and designed to
>increase the richness of what can be delivered with standard web
>technologies (HTML, CSS, etc.)   As those technologies mature (HTML5,
>CSS3, etc.) are there scenarios that you'll be able implement then
>without Flash or Silverlight - absolutely;  will Flash and Silverlight
>continue to innovate to provide functionality above and beyond what
>'standards' dictate - absolutely.  It's the cycle of innovation -
>we've survived it before and we will agaiin.
>
>Honestly, I think there's a more tenuous story with WPF and
>Silverlight than there is with Silverlight and HTML5.
>
>Jim O'Neil
>Developer Evangelist
>Microsoft
>
>http://blogs.msdn.com/jimoneil | @jimoneil
>
>On 10 Nov 2010 11:41:00 -0800, "Chris Pollach"
><cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>
>>Hi Jason;
>>
>>   Yes, that will be interesting to see how SL evolves now that MS's focus
>>for it is for Windows Phone 7. Also, exactly what will SL address that 
>>would
>>draw web designers to SL vs HTML5. Of course, its probably too early to 
>>tell
>>yet.
>>
>>   On the other hand - HTML5 solves the zero plug-in and eventually full
>>multi-browser and cross platform compatibility which is a current mandatory
>>requirement for many web developers (as dictated by their organization
>>today ). So if HTML5 can do 90/95%+ of everything a web application needs
>>without a plug-in and meets all mandatory features - I suspect that
>>management will force us to go that route. This is already the case for the
>>entire Canadian government as their CLF2 web standards are being revised
>>(proposed CLF3 standard in progress) and already states that HTML5 is the
>>only accepted direction at this point.
>>
>>
>>Regards ... Chris
>>President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>
>>"Jason 'Bug' Fenter [TeamSybase]"  wrote in message
>>news:4cdad9f7$1@forums-1-dub...
>>
>>The MS MVP response included a statement that basically said,
>>"Silverlight is meant to do the things that HTML5 can't."
>>
>>When PB15 comes out, will HTML5 be able-- at that time-- to do
>>everything that PB needs it to do?
>>
>>
>>
>>On 11/10/2010 8:51 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
>>> Hi Bruce;
>>>
>>> Thanks for the great links!
>>>
>>> I think this sentence summarizes it for me ... "The development of
>>> Internet Explorer 9 should have been a wake-up call to Silverlight
>>> developers. "
>>>
>>> The interesting question now is where Sybase will take PB 15 a la web?
>>>
>>> Regards ... Chris
>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>
>>> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>>> news:ivekd69oh691q0718ht1go3v92q6909nco@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>
>>> More follow up. Some pertinent comments from some of the pundents who
>>> follow Microsoft.
>>>
>>> One Microsoft Way's evaluation of why it shouldn't have come as a
>>> shock, but also doesn't make sense this soon:
>>> http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/11/silverlight-html5-and-microsofts-opaque-development-strategy.ars
>>>
>>>
>>> That article references an Infoworld article which indicates that the
>>> folks on the HTML5 committee are recommending that people not start
>>> using it for some time yet:
>>>
>>> http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/w3c-hold-html5-in-websites-041?page=0,0
>>>
>>>
>>> And there's this from Redond Review, which apparently was written
>>> before the Bob Muglia interview was published. The author is
>>> compaining about Microsoft's apparently lack of support for
>>> Silverlight and it's affect on partners.
>>>
>>> http://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2010/11/01/protect-whats-yours.aspx
>>>
>>> 
0
Jim
11/15/2010 3:35:24 PM
Hi Chris;

That is our exact situation down here... Could not have described it 
better...

Regards,
Adrian


El 14/11/2010 08:29 a.m., Chris Pollach escribió:
> Hi Adrian;
>
> Thanks for the insight in your area.
>
> Many of the airports that we deal with, with the AirMan system are small
> town based. These are not big central airports like Miami, Portland, NY,
> Toronto where we do have AM installed. Instead, these are airports that
> can support small jet aircraft and are also small volume. These airports
> typically have one or two controllers, one main runway, etc - a good
> example that we installed AM in this week is North Bay, Ontario. Many of
> the other 26 airports where AM is installed in Canada are smaller than
> that. So there information system need to be turnkey, out-of-the-box and
> low cost because they do *not* have any IT staff. The system support is
> often farmed out to local IT firms on a ticket item basis. So each
> ticket represents a cost over-head and their IT budgets are also very
> small.
>
> However, add up the small airports and the larger ones and you get quite
> a large install base for AM overall in Canada. Now apply the same model
> to the US as well an AM has the same challenges there as well. Even
> small air force base installations follow the same model and cost
> consciousness. So we have to supply very low cost and ease of use in
> order to attract and maintain these clients. We need to do this with one
> development tool that FULLY supports mobile, native, web and virtual
> environments and their related devices. So we have used PocketBuilder,
> PowerBuilder and SQL Anywhere thus far. However, the web direction and
> in particular touchpad technologies, smart phones and various browser
> technology demands are growing rapidly. Sybase needs to empower the PB
> Family of products to support this or software vendors like Volairus
> (that makes AM) will be forced to look at other development tool avenues.
>
> Regards ... Chris
> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>
> "Adrian Galvan" wrote in message news:4cdf2132$1@forums-1-dub...
>
> Hi Chris.-
>
> That is exactly where we are coming from... We are a mid size software
> company that targets mid size companies in Mexico, let me remind you mid
> size companies down here are not what you would call mid size companies
> in the US. And money is a big ISSUE. Down here they want everything out
> of the box ... That was why we went with PowerSoft back en 95. We are
> talking companies with sales in the range from 15 - 50 USCy.
>
> Regards,
> Adrian
>
>
> El 12/11/2010 10:47 a.m., Chris Pollach escribió:
>> Hi Adrian;
>>
>> Thanks for the actual feedback on your situation.
>>
>> Sybase can fill the gap with SUP - but that is great for the large
>> organization that wants to throw some big $$$$ at the problem. What
>> small to medium business need (and even large software houses that
>> develop for these platforms - but deliver to small business) are
>> inexpensive solutions that meet their business application needs on
>> smart devices and don't blow the budget.
>>
>> With the development tools out there currently, I feel that we are back
>> to the days of "clipper" (the dBase compiler) - before the introduction
>> of the DataWindow. :-)
>>
>>
>> Regards ... Chris
>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>
>> "Adrian Galvan" wrote in message news:4cdd6b83$1@forums-1-dub...
>>
>> I agree... Just yesterday I got a call from another client that wants
>> our business apps to run on apple products...
>>
>> Seems like directors everywhere are picking up Apple products and they
>> want to be able to run their Windows business apps on Windows/Apple OS's
>> (Mac, iPhone, iPad, Etc.) and that is only going to happen with HTML5
>> IMHO.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Adrian
>>
>>
>> El 12/11/2010 09:22 a.m., Chris Pollach escribió:
>>> Hi Jim;
>>>
>>> Please go back and reread the SL threads from MS. Also see Brett's post
>>> later in this thread as he has noted that direction as well. According
>>> to MS - SL is really WPF/E and MS wants to enable every VS2010 developer
>>> to be a WP7 developer. So their plan to expedite this is SL. The main
>>> driver of course is to compete against the Apple and Android "AppStore"
>>> that is just as important to the smart phone as its hardware from the
>>> consumers perspective.
>>>
>>> BTW: I just got an iPhone3G for free last week (sweet deal I tell ya)
>>> and my daughter just got a new iPhone 4G yesterday for $159. My Martial
>>> Arts master and his assistant just got new Blackberries. I tell ya, this
>>> is where the action is happening IMHO. I think that this area will
>>> overshadow desktop application development very soon.
>>>
>>> What we need as developers is to be able to build HTML5 applications
>>> that can run within these smart phone's web browser. I think that this
>>> will precipitate exponential user demand from here on. Of course, native
>>> applications on these devices would be the icing on the cake too (hello
>>> Santa? <bg>)
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards ... Chris
>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>
>>> "Jim O'Neil" wrote in message
>>> news:ltmod6ln0550vl296pcli6d54atr839032@4ax.com...
>>>
>>> "now that MS's focus for it is for Windows Phone 7" ????
>>>
>>> Even the Foley-ized quote (below) doesn't jump to that conclusion:
>>> (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> “Silverlight is our development platform for Windows Phone,” he said.
>>> Silverlight also has some “sweet spots” in media and line-of-business
>>> applications, he said.
>>>
>>> Additional posts have been made clarifying Silverlight's positioning
>>> Muglia:
>>> http://team.silverlight.net/announcement/pdc-and-silverlight/
>>> Guthrie:
>>> http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2010/11/04/silverlight-questions.aspx
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "3. Silverlight is a core application development platform for
>>> Windows, and it’s the development platform for Windows Phone."
>>>
>>> It's more correctly ONE of the development platforms for the Windows
>>> Phone - and not to the exclusion of all other platforms - and the
>>> version on the phone is actually Silverlight 3+ not 4 as it is for
>>> 'web' development today. Silverlight is a client play not a web play,
>>> not a phone play, not a desktop play.
>>>
>>> Silverlight and Flash are at their core NOT web technologies, they are
>>> client technologies delivered (primarily) via the web and designed to
>>> increase the richness of what can be delivered with standard web
>>> technologies (HTML, CSS, etc.) As those technologies mature (HTML5,
>>> CSS3, etc.) are there scenarios that you'll be able implement then
>>> without Flash or Silverlight - absolutely; will Flash and Silverlight
>>> continue to innovate to provide functionality above and beyond what
>>> 'standards' dictate - absolutely. It's the cycle of innovation -
>>> we've survived it before and we will agaiin.
>>>
>>> Honestly, I think there's a more tenuous story with WPF and
>>> Silverlight than there is with Silverlight and HTML5.
>>>
>>> Jim O'Neil
>>> Developer Evangelist
>>> Microsoft
>>>
>>> http://blogs.msdn.com/jimoneil | @jimoneil
>>>
>>> On 10 Nov 2010 11:41:00 -0800, "Chris Pollach"
>>> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Jason;
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that will be interesting to see how SL evolves now that MS's focus
>>>> for it is for Windows Phone 7. Also, exactly what will SL address that
>>>> would
>>>> draw web designers to SL vs HTML5. Of course, its probably too early
>>>> to tell
>>>> yet.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand - HTML5 solves the zero plug-in and eventually full
>>>> multi-browser and cross platform compatibility which is a current
>>>> mandatory
>>>> requirement for many web developers (as dictated by their organization
>>>> today ). So if HTML5 can do 90/95%+ of everything a web application
>>>> needs
>>>> without a plug-in and meets all mandatory features - I suspect that
>>>> management will force us to go that route. This is already the case
>>>> for the
>>>> entire Canadian government as their CLF2 web standards are being
>>>> revised
>>>> (proposed CLF3 standard in progress) and already states that HTML5 is
>>>> the
>>>> only accepted direction at this point.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards ... Chris
>>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>>
>>>> "Jason 'Bug' Fenter [TeamSybase]" wrote in message
>>>> news:4cdad9f7$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>
>>>> The MS MVP response included a statement that basically said,
>>>> "Silverlight is meant to do the things that HTML5 can't."
>>>>
>>>> When PB15 comes out, will HTML5 be able-- at that time-- to do
>>>> everything that PB needs it to do?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 11/10/2010 8:51 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
>>>>> Hi Bruce;
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the great links!
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this sentence summarizes it for me ... "The development of
>>>>> Internet Explorer 9 should have been a wake-up call to Silverlight
>>>>> developers. "
>>>>>
>>>>> The interesting question now is where Sybase will take PB 15 a la web?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards ... Chris
>>>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>>>
>>>>> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>>>>> news:ivekd69oh691q0718ht1go3v92q6909nco@4ax.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> More follow up. Some pertinent comments from some of the pundents who
>>>>> follow Microsoft.
>>>>>
>>>>> One Microsoft Way's evaluation of why it shouldn't have come as a
>>>>> shock, but also doesn't make sense this soon:
>>>>> http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/11/silverlight-html5-and-microsofts-opaque-development-strategy.ars
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That article references an Infoworld article which indicates that the
>>>>> folks on the HTML5 committee are recommending that people not start
>>>>> using it for some time yet:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/w3c-hold-html5-in-websites-041?page=0,0
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And there's this from Redond Review, which apparently was written
>>>>> before the Bob Muglia interview was published. The author is
>>>>> compaining about Microsoft's apparently lack of support for
>>>>> Silverlight and it's affect on partners.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2010/11/01/protect-whats-yours.aspx
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>
0
Adrian
11/15/2010 5:23:42 PM
I am guessing that its the large corporations that are driving the input to 
Sybase. If that is true, their needs are certainly different than small 
development shops and/or single innovators <bg>.




"Adrian Galvan"  wrote in message news:4ce16c9e@forums-1-dub...

Hi Chris;

That is our exact situation down here... Could not have described it
better...

Regards,
Adrian


El 14/11/2010 08:29 a.m., Chris Pollach escribió:
> Hi Adrian;
>
> Thanks for the insight in your area.
>
> Many of the airports that we deal with, with the AirMan system are small
> town based. These are not big central airports like Miami, Portland, NY,
> Toronto where we do have AM installed. Instead, these are airports that
> can support small jet aircraft and are also small volume. These airports
> typically have one or two controllers, one main runway, etc - a good
> example that we installed AM in this week is North Bay, Ontario. Many of
> the other 26 airports where AM is installed in Canada are smaller than
> that. So there information system need to be turnkey, out-of-the-box and
> low cost because they do *not* have any IT staff. The system support is
> often farmed out to local IT firms on a ticket item basis. So each
> ticket represents a cost over-head and their IT budgets are also very
> small.
>
> However, add up the small airports and the larger ones and you get quite
> a large install base for AM overall in Canada. Now apply the same model
> to the US as well an AM has the same challenges there as well. Even
> small air force base installations follow the same model and cost
> consciousness. So we have to supply very low cost and ease of use in
> order to attract and maintain these clients. We need to do this with one
> development tool that FULLY supports mobile, native, web and virtual
> environments and their related devices. So we have used PocketBuilder,
> PowerBuilder and SQL Anywhere thus far. However, the web direction and
> in particular touchpad technologies, smart phones and various browser
> technology demands are growing rapidly. Sybase needs to empower the PB
> Family of products to support this or software vendors like Volairus
> (that makes AM) will be forced to look at other development tool avenues.
>
> Regards ... Chris
> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>
> "Adrian Galvan" wrote in message news:4cdf2132$1@forums-1-dub...
>
> Hi Chris.-
>
> That is exactly where we are coming from... We are a mid size software
> company that targets mid size companies in Mexico, let me remind you mid
> size companies down here are not what you would call mid size companies
> in the US. And money is a big ISSUE. Down here they want everything out
> of the box ... That was why we went with PowerSoft back en 95. We are
> talking companies with sales in the range from 15 - 50 USCy.
>
> Regards,
> Adrian
>
>
> El 12/11/2010 10:47 a.m., Chris Pollach escribió:
>> Hi Adrian;
>>
>> Thanks for the actual feedback on your situation.
>>
>> Sybase can fill the gap with SUP - but that is great for the large
>> organization that wants to throw some big $$$$ at the problem. What
>> small to medium business need (and even large software houses that
>> develop for these platforms - but deliver to small business) are
>> inexpensive solutions that meet their business application needs on
>> smart devices and don't blow the budget.
>>
>> With the development tools out there currently, I feel that we are back
>> to the days of "clipper" (the dBase compiler) - before the introduction
>> of the DataWindow. :-)
>>
>>
>> Regards ... Chris
>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>
>> "Adrian Galvan" wrote in message news:4cdd6b83$1@forums-1-dub...
>>
>> I agree... Just yesterday I got a call from another client that wants
>> our business apps to run on apple products...
>>
>> Seems like directors everywhere are picking up Apple products and they
>> want to be able to run their Windows business apps on Windows/Apple OS's
>> (Mac, iPhone, iPad, Etc.) and that is only going to happen with HTML5
>> IMHO.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Adrian
>>
>>
>> El 12/11/2010 09:22 a.m., Chris Pollach escribió:
>>> Hi Jim;
>>>
>>> Please go back and reread the SL threads from MS. Also see Brett's post
>>> later in this thread as he has noted that direction as well. According
>>> to MS - SL is really WPF/E and MS wants to enable every VS2010 developer
>>> to be a WP7 developer. So their plan to expedite this is SL. The main
>>> driver of course is to compete against the Apple and Android "AppStore"
>>> that is just as important to the smart phone as its hardware from the
>>> consumers perspective.
>>>
>>> BTW: I just got an iPhone3G for free last week (sweet deal I tell ya)
>>> and my daughter just got a new iPhone 4G yesterday for $159. My Martial
>>> Arts master and his assistant just got new Blackberries. I tell ya, this
>>> is where the action is happening IMHO. I think that this area will
>>> overshadow desktop application development very soon.
>>>
>>> What we need as developers is to be able to build HTML5 applications
>>> that can run within these smart phone's web browser. I think that this
>>> will precipitate exponential user demand from here on. Of course, native
>>> applications on these devices would be the icing on the cake too (hello
>>> Santa? <bg>)
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards ... Chris
>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>
>>> "Jim O'Neil" wrote in message
>>> news:ltmod6ln0550vl296pcli6d54atr839032@4ax.com...
>>>
>>> "now that MS's focus for it is for Windows Phone 7" ????
>>>
>>> Even the Foley-ized quote (below) doesn't jump to that conclusion:
>>> (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> “Silverlight is our development platform for Windows Phone,” he said.
>>> Silverlight also has some “sweet spots” in media and line-of-business
>>> applications, he said.
>>>
>>> Additional posts have been made clarifying Silverlight's positioning
>>> Muglia:
>>> http://team.silverlight.net/announcement/pdc-and-silverlight/
>>> Guthrie:
>>> http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2010/11/04/silverlight-questions.aspx
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "3. Silverlight is a core application development platform for
>>> Windows, and it’s the development platform for Windows Phone."
>>>
>>> It's more correctly ONE of the development platforms for the Windows
>>> Phone - and not to the exclusion of all other platforms - and the
>>> version on the phone is actually Silverlight 3+ not 4 as it is for
>>> 'web' development today. Silverlight is a client play not a web play,
>>> not a phone play, not a desktop play.
>>>
>>> Silverlight and Flash are at their core NOT web technologies, they are
>>> client technologies delivered (primarily) via the web and designed to
>>> increase the richness of what can be delivered with standard web
>>> technologies (HTML, CSS, etc.) As those technologies mature (HTML5,
>>> CSS3, etc.) are there scenarios that you'll be able implement then
>>> without Flash or Silverlight - absolutely; will Flash and Silverlight
>>> continue to innovate to provide functionality above and beyond what
>>> 'standards' dictate - absolutely. It's the cycle of innovation -
>>> we've survived it before and we will agaiin.
>>>
>>> Honestly, I think there's a more tenuous story with WPF and
>>> Silverlight than there is with Silverlight and HTML5.
>>>
>>> Jim O'Neil
>>> Developer Evangelist
>>> Microsoft
>>>
>>> http://blogs.msdn.com/jimoneil | @jimoneil
>>>
>>> On 10 Nov 2010 11:41:00 -0800, "Chris Pollach"
>>> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Jason;
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that will be interesting to see how SL evolves now that MS's focus
>>>> for it is for Windows Phone 7. Also, exactly what will SL address that
>>>> would
>>>> draw web designers to SL vs HTML5. Of course, its probably too early
>>>> to tell
>>>> yet.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand - HTML5 solves the zero plug-in and eventually full
>>>> multi-browser and cross platform compatibility which is a current
>>>> mandatory
>>>> requirement for many web developers (as dictated by their organization
>>>> today ). So if HTML5 can do 90/95%+ of everything a web application
>>>> needs
>>>> without a plug-in and meets all mandatory features - I suspect that
>>>> management will force us to go that route. This is already the case
>>>> for the
>>>> entire Canadian government as their CLF2 web standards are being
>>>> revised
>>>> (proposed CLF3 standard in progress) and already states that HTML5 is
>>>> the
>>>> only accepted direction at this point.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards ... Chris
>>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>>
>>>> "Jason 'Bug' Fenter [TeamSybase]" wrote in message
>>>> news:4cdad9f7$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>
>>>> The MS MVP response included a statement that basically said,
>>>> "Silverlight is meant to do the things that HTML5 can't."
>>>>
>>>> When PB15 comes out, will HTML5 be able-- at that time-- to do
>>>> everything that PB needs it to do?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 11/10/2010 8:51 AM, Chris Pollach wrote:
>>>>> Hi Bruce;
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the great links!
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this sentence summarizes it for me ... "The development of
>>>>> Internet Explorer 9 should have been a wake-up call to Silverlight
>>>>> developers. "
>>>>>
>>>>> The interesting question now is where Sybase will take PB 15 a la web?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards ... Chris
>>>>> President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>>>>> Blog: http://chrispollach.blogspot.com
>>>>> PBDJ: http://chrispollach.sys-con.com
>>>>> SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>>>>>
>>>>> "Bruce Armstrong" wrote in message
>>>>> news:ivekd69oh691q0718ht1go3v92q6909nco@4ax.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> More follow up. Some pertinent comments from some of the pundents who
>>>>> follow Microsoft.
>>>>>
>>>>> One Microsoft Way's evaluation of why it shouldn't have come as a
>>>>> shock, but also doesn't make sense this soon:
>>>>> http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/11/silverlight-html5-and-microsofts-opaque-development-strategy.ars
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That article references an Infoworld article which indicates that the
>>>>> folks on the HTML5 committee are recommending that people not start
>>>>> using it for some time yet:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/w3c-hold-html5-in-websites-041?page=0,0
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And there's this from Redond Review, which apparently was written
>>>>> before the Bob Muglia interview was published. The author is
>>>>> compaining about Microsoft's apparently lack of support for
>>>>> Silverlight and it's affect on partners.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2010/11/01/protect-whats-yours.aspx
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
> 

0
Chris
11/15/2010 10:01:29 PM
Reply:

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