RFC: Should we publicize the use of locale.t for finding defective locales?

This is a minor matter, which I considered deciding myself or bringing 
up on irc, but in the end thought it best to get wider feedback.

The test file locale.t is now improved with more tests that look for 
improper locale implementations.  For example, it verifies that \s and 
\w are disjoint, that [:lower:] is a subset of [:alpha:], and other 
checks that a POSIX-conforming locale definition should pass.

The .t has long had reasonable debugging output (when enabled) for 
helping find out what's wrong with locales that fail.

Some years ago, it was changed so that if a platform has only up to 5% 
of its locales fail, it doesn't fail the .t, but marks those ones 
failing as TODO.  This has the advantage of not failing the build over a 
few defective locales on the platform, but the disadvantage that someone 
doesn't know that they have defective locales unless more than 5% are 
bad, unless they run the test manually.

I have just changed locale.t so it uses an environment variable to 
switch into debug mode, and to actually fail if it encounters any bad 
locales, with improved diagnostics as to what is wrong.

The question is should we publicize this, and if so, how?  It would only 
work for people who have the perl source tree or somehow could get 
t/test.pl working.

My thought would be to add a section to perllocale.pod detailing this 
possibility and how to do it.

Any feedback?



0
public
8/13/2013 3:11:10 AM
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On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 09:11:10PM -0600, Karl Williamson wrote:
> My thought would be to add a section to perllocale.pod detailing
> this possibility and how to do it.
> 
> Any feedback?

I think it's useful, but I'm not sure how much use it will see if
someone needs to build a full perl source tree when they just want to
run this particular test.

But it's probably not worth the effort to extract it out into a more
independent tool.

Tony
0
tony
8/14/2013 12:52:12 AM
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* Karl Williamson <public@khwilliamson.com> [2013-08-12T23:11:10]
> The question is should we publicize this, and if so, how?  It would
> only work for people who have the perl source tree or somehow could
> get t/test.pl working.
>=20
> My thought would be to add a section to perllocale.pod detailing
> this possibility and how to do it.

That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.  The other option is to add a secti=
on
to perllocale indicating that it *possible* referencing another section fou=
nd
in, say perlhack.

I don't think such indirection is necessary, but if you feel it would be mo=
re
prudent, so be it.

--=20
rjbs

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0
perl
8/14/2013 12:57:57 AM
* Ricardo Signes <perl.p5p@rjbs.manxome.org> [2013-08-14 03:00]:
> The other option is to add a section to perllocale indicating that it
> *possible* referencing another section found in, say perlhack.
>
> I don't think such indirection is necessary, but if you feel it would
> be more prudent, so be it.

I feel that your suggestion amounts to burying it. Would there be any
point to mentioning it only kinda-sorta yet hiding it so that no one is
likely to actually discover it?

Do we *want* to advertise it, or not?

I get the impression that Karl feels he built a nice little niche tool
so neat that a handful of people might really appreciate it – if only
they weren’t so unlikely to ever discover it, consigning his efforts to
obscurity.

I think the question in response to Karl should be: is there a reason
*not* to advertise this? I haven’t seen any mentioned, and can’t think
of any on my own, so I currently don’t see why not to advertise it. But
maybe there are? What are they?

Karl?

Regards,
-- 
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>
0
pagaltzis
8/16/2013 12:20:34 AM
On 08/15/2013 06:20 PM, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
> * Ricardo Signes <perl.p5p@rjbs.manxome.org> [2013-08-14 03:00]:
>> The other option is to add a section to perllocale indicating that it
>> *possible* referencing another section found in, say perlhack.
>>
>> I don't think such indirection is necessary, but if you feel it would
>> be more prudent, so be it.
>
> I feel that your suggestion amounts to burying it. Would there be any
> point to mentioning it only kinda-sorta yet hiding it so that no one is
> likely to actually discover it?
>
> Do we *want* to advertise it, or not?
>
> I get the impression that Karl feels he built a nice little niche tool
> so neat that a handful of people might really appreciate it – if only
> they weren’t so unlikely to ever discover it, consigning his efforts to
> obscurity.
>
> I think the question in response to Karl should be: is there a reason
> *not* to advertise this? I haven’t seen any mentioned, and can’t think
> of any on my own, so I currently don’t see why not to advertise it. But
> maybe there are? What are they?
>
> Karl?

I had no reason not to advertise it, but wanted to be sure I wasn't 
missing something, and unsure where/how to put it.

0
public
8/16/2013 12:39:23 AM
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* Karl Williamson <public@khwilliamson.com> [2013-08-15T20:39:23]
> I had no reason not to advertise it, but wanted to be sure I wasn't
> missing something, and unsure where/how to put it.

I think your initial suggestion was good.

--=20
rjbs

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0
perl
8/16/2013 1:30:43 AM
On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 09:11:10PM -0600, Karl Williamson wrote:

> The question is should we publicize this, and if so, how?  It would only 
> work for people who have the perl source tree or somehow could get 
> t/test.pl working.

It doesn't use t/test.pl
It's generating TAP with print statements.
It only seems to be somewhat tangled with the source tree due to

if (in_utf8) {
    require "lib/locale/utf8";
} else {
    require "lib/locale/latin1";
}

but that seems to be all that it needs that is not installed.
I don't know how tightly coupled it is to the version of locale.pm, POSIX.xs
and the perl binary.

> I have just changed locale.t so it uses an environment variable to 
> switch into debug mode, and to actually fail if it encounters any bad 
> locales, with improved diagnostics as to what is wrong.
> 
> My thought would be to add a section to perllocale.pod detailing this 
> possibility and how to do it.
> 
> Any feedback?

I don't have any great opinions on this. But I don't think that it's worth
diverting effort into trying to package something up when we don't yet know
if anyone actually wants to use it. So for now, just documenting it seems to
be the best way to go. If it becomes popular, and the current approach turns
out to be limiting, that seems like the right time to revisit it.

Nicholas Clark
0
nick
8/19/2013 1:08:20 PM
Reply:

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