Delete hate speech module

I'd just read of Time::Cube, a disjointed rant full of hate speech.
This is the kind of content that is most deserving of deletion from
CPAN. Would the responsible parties please go nuke this, please?

Josh
0
twists
2/8/2007 6:11:43 AM
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On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, Joshua ben Jore wrote:

> I'd just read of Time::Cube, a disjointed rant full of hate speech.
> This is the kind of content that is most deserving of deletion from
> CPAN. Would the responsible parties please go nuke this, please?

Just to clarify for the curious, to see the bile you have to take a look 
at the module's source. It's not in the docs.


-dave

/*===================================================
VegGuide.Org                        www.BookIRead.com
Your guide to all that's veg.       My book blog
===================================================*/
0
autarch
2/8/2007 6:22:10 AM
On Feb 7, 2007, at 10:11 PM, Joshua ben Jore wrote:

> I'd just read of Time::Cube, a disjointed rant full of hate speech.
> This is the kind of content that is most deserving of deletion from
> CPAN. Would the responsible parties please go nuke this, please?

It's deserving, but I'd sure rather not have attention called to it.

--
Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance




0
andy
2/8/2007 6:25:11 AM
# from Andy Lester
# on Wednesday 07 February 2007 10:25 pm:

>> I'd just read of Time::Cube, a disjointed rant full of hate speech.
>> This is the kind of content that is most deserving of deletion from
>> CPAN. Would the responsible parties please go nuke this, please?
>
>It's deserving, but I'd sure rather not have attention called to it.

Given that the license does not allow it to live on CPAN, I'd say we 
have to remove it.

--Eric
-- 
"Everything goes wrong all at once."
--Quantized Revision of Murphy's Law
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------
0
scratchcomputing
2/8/2007 9:28:12 AM
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On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 01:28:12 -0800
Eric Wilhelm <scratchcomputing@gmail.com> wrote:
> # from Andy Lester
> # on Wednesday 07 February 2007 10:25 pm:
> >> I'd just read of Time::Cube, a disjointed rant full of hate speech.
> >> This is the kind of content that is most deserving of deletion from
> >> CPAN. Would the responsible parties please go nuke this, please?
> Given that the license does not allow it to live on CPAN, I'd say we 
> have to remove it.

    Correction: Time::Cubic.

    As I'm not a citizen of U.S., I have no idea on this Time Cube
theory thing till now.  I paid a visit.  Well, even if it comes with an
valid open source license, I do not agree it's proper to allow such
hatred words on CPAN.  That is really very bad.

    I understand that for some psychos (may or may not be the Time Cube
followers) the best way is to ignore them rather than fight with them. 
But since hatred is involved in this Time::Cubic, psycho or not this
will hurt the public image of CPAN, which many people work hard to make
it better for a long time.  It would be very bad if Time Cube followers
gather and plan on killing the Jews or educators on CPAN with a Artistic
license.  CPAN may not be always serving the public interests, but must
not hurt the public, nor become a tool to hurt the public.

    This is only my humble opinion.

--
Best regards,
imacat ^_*' <imacat@mail.imacat.idv.tw>
PGP Key: http://www.imacat.idv.tw/me/pgpkey.txt

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0
imacat
2/8/2007 3:06:03 PM
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On 8 Feb 2007, at 15:06, imacat wrote:
>     Correction: Time::Cubic.

I got some Time Cube madness on an old blog a few years ago:

http://www.shitshifter.com/forum.jsp?nid=237

See posts by "HEED CUBIC PROPHECIES TO AVERT CUBELESS DOOM"

- --
Andy Armstrong, hexten.net

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0
andy
2/8/2007 3:14:04 PM

> -----Original Message-----
> From: imacat [mailto:imacat@mail.imacat.idv.tw]
> Sent: 08 February 2007 15:06
> To: Perl Module Authors List
> Subject: Re: Delete hate speech module
> 
> 
> On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 01:28:12 -0800
> Eric Wilhelm <scratchcomputing@gmail.com> wrote:
> > # from Andy Lester
> > # on Wednesday 07 February 2007 10:25 pm:
> > >> I'd just read of Time::Cube, a disjointed rant full of 
> hate speech.
> > >> This is the kind of content that is most deserving of 
> deletion from
> > >> CPAN. Would the responsible parties please go nuke this, please?
> > Given that the license does not allow it to live on CPAN, 
> I'd say we 
> > have to remove it.
> 
>     Correction: Time::Cubic.
> 
>     As I'm not a citizen of U.S., I have no idea on this Time Cube
> theory thing till now.  I paid a visit.  Well, even if it 
> comes with an
> valid open source license, I do not agree it's proper to allow such
> hatred words on CPAN.  That is really very bad.
> 
>     I understand that for some psychos (may or may not be the 
> Time Cube
> followers) the best way is to ignore them rather than fight 
> with them. 
> But since hatred is involved in this Time::Cubic, psycho or not this
> will hurt the public image of CPAN, which many people work 
> hard to make
> it better for a long time.  It would be very bad if Time Cube 
> followers
> gather and plan on killing the Jews or educators on CPAN with 
> a Artistic
> license.  CPAN may not be always serving the public 
> interests, but must
> not hurt the public, nor become a tool to hurt the public.
> 
>     This is only my humble opinion.
> 
Ahah, now I see the correct module name, I can browse the source and see what the issue is. The only difficulty is that the module could be somebody's incredibly poor taste sick joke, and people could raise the old chestnut argument about free speech.

If the module were in the Acme:: namespace, there might be a case. But as it's not, my vote is for nuking the module and reprimanding the author.
0
4n5m
2/8/2007 3:24:13 PM
On 08/02/07, imacat <imacat@mail.imacat.idv.tw> wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 01:28:12 -0800
> Eric Wilhelm <scratchcomputing@gmail.com> wrote:
> > # from Andy Lester
> > # on Wednesday 07 February 2007 10:25 pm:
> > >> I'd just read of Time::Cube, a disjointed rant full of hate speech.
> > >> This is the kind of content that is most deserving of deletion from
> > >> CPAN. Would the responsible parties please go nuke this, please?
> > Given that the license does not allow it to live on CPAN, I'd say we
> > have to remove it.
>
>     Correction: Time::Cubic.
>
>     As I'm not a citizen of U.S., I have no idea on this Time Cube
> theory thing till now.  I paid a visit.  Well, even if it comes with an
> valid open source license, I do not agree it's proper to allow such
> hatred words on CPAN.  That is really very bad.
>
>     I understand that for some psychos (may or may not be the Time Cube
> followers) the best way is to ignore them rather than fight with them.
> But since hatred is involved in this Time::Cubic, psycho or not this
> will hurt the public image of CPAN, which many people work hard to make
> it better for a long time.  It would be very bad if Time Cube followers
> gather and plan on killing the Jews or educators on CPAN with a Artistic
> license.  CPAN may not be always serving the public interests, but must
> not hurt the public, nor become a tool to hurt the public.
>
>     This is only my humble opinion.

While I do agree that this should be taken down since CPAN is
breaching the license, I would point out that appears to be a joke.
There are several "LOL"s in the license and the code and the whole
bantown thing seems to be a project to produce amusing but useless
code - an irc bot that opens a channel, invites people at random and
kicks them out as soon as they join, a program to randomly trash the
registers of a running process. Also any code containing

sub dongers {

has to be a joke. Sadly www.timecube.com on which this is based is not as funny,

F

>
> --
> Best regards,
> imacat ^_*' <imacat@mail.imacat.idv.tw>
> PGP Key: http://www.imacat.idv.tw/me/pgpkey.txt
>
> <<Woman's Voice>> News: http://www.wov.idv.tw/
> Tavern IMACAT's: http://www.imacat.idv.tw/
> TLUG List Manager: http://lists.linux.org.tw/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tlug
>
>
0
fergal
2/8/2007 3:30:06 PM
On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, Joshua ben Jore wrote:

> I'd just read of Time::Cube, a disjointed rant full of hate speech.
> This is the kind of content that is most deserving of deletion from
> CPAN. Would the responsible parties please go nuke this, please?

It is actually Time::Cubic.

Wow!  Imagine if Doctor Bronner was an anti-Semetic Nazi.  Serious brain 
damage going on there.

And it is not even a usable piece of code.

-- 
"Invoking the supernatural can explain anything, and hence explains nothing."
                   - University of Utah bioengineering professor Gregory Clark
0
alan
2/8/2007 4:45:44 PM
On Thu, 8 Feb 2007, alan wrote:

> And it is not even a usable piece of code.

Well, it did pass all of the automated tests.

http://cpantesters.perl.org/show/Time-Cubic.html#Time-Cubic-1.0

But you are right.  It pretty much doesn't even do anything useful at all.

On a more serious side, getting rid of it should be pretty open and shut.
CPAN is a public resource managed by private entities.

--------------------
Christopher Josephes
cpj1@visi.com
0
cpj1
2/8/2007 4:52:47 PM
On Thu, 8 Feb 2007, Chris wrote:

> On Thu, 8 Feb 2007, alan wrote:
>
>> And it is not even a usable piece of code.
>
> Well, it did pass all of the automated tests.
>
> http://cpantesters.perl.org/show/Time-Cubic.html#Time-Cubic-1.0
>
> But you are right.  It pretty much doesn't even do anything useful at all.
>
> On a more serious side, getting rid of it should be pretty open and shut.
> CPAN is a public resource managed by private entities.

I think it is just a case of waiting for Jarko to wake up and/or read his 
mail.

It does need to be pulled.

-- 
"Invoking the supernatural can explain anything, and hence explains nothing."
                   - University of Utah bioengineering professor Gregory Clark
0
alan
2/8/2007 4:58:01 PM
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: imacat [mailto:imacat@mail.imacat.idv.tw]
>> Sent: 08 February 2007 15:06
>> To: Perl Module Authors List
>> Subject: Re: Delete hate speech module
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 01:28:12 -0800
>> Eric Wilhelm <scratchcomputing@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > # from Andy Lester
>> > # on Wednesday 07 February 2007 10:25 pm:
>> > >> I'd just read of Time::Cube, a disjointed rant full of 
>> hate speech.
>> > >> This is the kind of content that is most deserving of 
>> deletion from
>> > >> CPAN. Would the responsible parties please go nuke this, please?
>> > Given that the license does not allow it to live on CPAN, 
>> I'd say we 
>> > have to remove it.
>> 
>>     Correction: Time::Cubic.
>> 
>>     As I'm not a citizen of U.S., I have no idea on this Time Cube
>> theory thing till now.  I paid a visit.  Well, even if it 
>> comes with an
>> valid open source license, I do not agree it's proper to allow such
>> hatred words on CPAN.  That is really very bad.
>> 
>>     I understand that for some psychos (may or may not be the 
>> Time Cube
>> followers) the best way is to ignore them rather than fight 
>> with them. 
>> But since hatred is involved in this Time::Cubic, psycho or not this
>> will hurt the public image of CPAN, which many people work 
>> hard to make
>> it better for a long time.  It would be very bad if Time Cube 
>> followers
>> gather and plan on killing the Jews or educators on CPAN with 
>> a Artistic
>> license.  CPAN may not be always serving the public 
>> interests, but must
>> not hurt the public, nor become a tool to hurt the public.
>> 
>>     This is only my humble opinion.
>> 
>Ahah, now I see the correct module name, I can browse the source and see
what the issue is. The only difficulty is that the module could be
somebody's incredibly poor taste sick joke, and people could raise the old
chestnut argument about free speech.
>
>If the module were in the Acme:: namespace, there might be a case. But as
it's not, my vote is for nuking the module and reprimanding the author.
>

Even the Acme:: namespace modules do something (usefulness being in the eye
of the beholder).  Having looked at the source for actual functionality
(beyond the crazed rantings), and having run the example code, I can't say
that for this module.  (Even as a deliberate obfuscation, I would claim
that using $> in a module that alleges to calculate a time is not a point
in its favor.)

Further more, as has been pointed out, the "license" is a joke.  I'm not
encouraged by the sponsers on the license site sidebar either.

The author can indulge in his speech anywhere he choses in journalistic
forums.  CPAN is a source code repository, not a newspaper.

Sorry, I'm ranting a bit myself.  I may be wrong about my interpretation of
what CPAN is, please correct me if I am wrong.

     -john
0
jgamble
2/8/2007 5:17:33 PM
Joshua ben Jore wrote:

> I'd just read of Time::Cube, a disjointed rant full of hate speech.
> This is the kind of content that is most deserving of deletion from
> CPAN. Would the responsible parties please go nuke this, please?

Ok, lot of valid arguments that I agree with more or less, so I'm going=20
to play devil's advocate.

CPAN has worked as well as it is, and people are prompt to repeat it,=20
because people are allowed to upload anything to it. In that light, it's =

remarkable that incidents such as this remain few and far between.

I recommed against deleting it, because that only add fuel to the fire.=20
The crackpot who uploaded this drivel in the first place will be able to =

crow freedom of speech and it's all a communist plot, there really is a=20
perl cabal and they're out to get me and blah blah blah.

And as we all know, 99% of modules these days are found through=20
searches. I would recommend a much more subtle approach: ask Andreas and =

Randy to... oops... accidentally remove it from their indices, and=20
therefore when people search for Time::, it won't show up.

It will still be there. We wouldn't have to admit to forcibly removing=20
anything from the archive, it would just be... hard to stumble across.

Individuals who run their own archive mirrors may wish to (and indeed=20
may be required to, in terms on national laws (the French have something =

called "incitation =E0 la haine raciale" (haine means hate, I'm sure you =

can figure the rest out))) institute their own policies as to what they=20
wish to mirror from the funet master.

I would also recommend writing your (*) opinion about the module by=20
means of reviews on cpanratings, as well as annocpan and cpan::forum.=20
That way a third party will understand that the module is not condoned=20
by the general Perl community.

David

* you plural, I'm not just talking about Joshua


0
david
2/8/2007 5:20:18 PM
On 8 Feb 2007, at 17:20, David Landgren wrote:
> And as we all know, 99% of modules these days are found through  
> searches. I would recommend a much more subtle approach: ask  
> Andreas and Randy to... oops... accidentally remove it from their  
> indices, and therefore when people search for Time::, it won't show  
> up.

Of course the person who uploaded it may subscribe to this list or  
have found the public archives.

-- 
Andy Armstrong, hexten.net

0
andy
2/8/2007 5:25:12 PM
On Thu, 8 Feb 2007, David Landgren wrote:

> Joshua ben Jore wrote:
>
>> I'd just read of Time::Cube, a disjointed rant full of hate speech.
>> This is the kind of content that is most deserving of deletion from
>> CPAN. Would the responsible parties please go nuke this, please?
>
> Ok, lot of valid arguments that I agree with more or less, so I'm going to 
> play devil's advocate.
>
> CPAN has worked as well as it is, and people are prompt to repeat it, because 
> people are allowed to upload anything to it. In that light, it's remarkable 
> that incidents such as this remain few and far between.
>
> I recommed against deleting it, because that only add fuel to the fire. The 
> crackpot who uploaded this drivel in the first place will be able to crow 
> freedom of speech and it's all a communist plot, there really is a perl cabal 
> and they're out to get me and blah blah blah.
>
> And as we all know, 99% of modules these days are found through searches. I 
> would recommend a much more subtle approach: ask Andreas and Randy to... 
> oops... accidentally remove it from their indices, and therefore when people 
> search for Time::, it won't show up.

I've removed it from http://cpan.uwinnipeg.ca/.

-- 
best regards,
Randy

0
randy
2/8/2007 5:31:30 PM
David Landgren wrote:
> I recommend against deleting it, because that only add fuel to the fire.
> The crackpot who uploaded this drivel in the first place will be able to
> crow freedom of speech and it's all a communist plot, there really is a
> perl cabal and they're out to get me and blah blah blah.

So what?  This guy is not contributing anything of value, and his PAUSE
ID is a generic trolling username.  The CPAN is a service to authors as
much as it is to users -- if you want your code to be mirrored on 1000s
of machines worldwide, at least make it do *something*.

I would look at it this way.  If a module is really useful and contains
a hateful comment here and there, I would ask the author nicely to
reconsider his choice of words, but I wouldn't delete the module from
the CPAN.  Similarly, if a module is pretty much useless, but it's funny
in good taste (Acme::), then I would also never consider deleting it.

But when it's useless AND in bad taste, it's not doing anything good for
anyone, so why should the CPAN mirror it?  What's the advantage for anyone?

If I were in charge, this module would be deleted and the PAUSE account
disabled.  If the author would like to try again, he can register with
his real name, upload some good code, and he will be welcomed to the
community.  But someone needs to draw the line saying that useless hate
speech is not what the CPAN is for.  Otherwise the CPAN is going to
become slashdot without a moderation system, and people are going to
stop mirroring it.

> I would also recommend writing your (*) opinion about the module by
> means of reviews on cpanratings, as well as annocpan and cpan::forum.
> That way a third party will understand that the module is not condoned
> by the general Perl community.

This is probably exactly what the author wants.  Think about how much of
everyone's time he's wasted already -- in the end, time we spend
discussing hate speech on CPAN::Forum is time that we could have spent
making our CPAN modules better.

Delete and be done with it.

-- 
package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do {
$,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //,
";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup;
0
jon
2/8/2007 5:34:12 PM
Andy Armstrong wrote:
> On 8 Feb 2007, at 17:20, David Landgren wrote:
>> And as we all know, 99% of modules these days are found through 
>> searches. I would recommend a much more subtle approach: ask Andreas 
>> and Randy to... oops... accidentally remove it from their indices, and 
>> therefore when people search for Time::, it won't show up.
> 
> Of course the person who uploaded it may subscribe to this list or have 
> found the public archives.

True, but by the same token they've already read the rest of the thread, 
so that's beside the point. Or else I'm missing your point.

David

0
david
2/8/2007 5:36:49 PM
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Rockway [mailto:jon@jrock.us]=20
[snip]
> If I were in charge, this module would be deleted and the=20
> PAUSE account disabled.

++.

  - Dmitri.
0
Dmitri
2/8/2007 5:38:16 PM
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 11:34:12 -0600
Jonathan Rockway <jon@jrock.us> wrote:

> But when it's useless AND in bad taste, it's not doing anything good
> for anyone, so why should the CPAN mirror it?  What's the advantage
> for anyone?

   Jonathan++.  I'm all for removing it from CPAN and shutting off his
   PAUSE account. 

 ---------------------------------
   Frank Wiles <frank@wiles.org>
   http://www.wiles.org
 ---------------------------------

0
frank
2/8/2007 5:39:14 PM
On 8 Feb 2007, at 17:36, David Landgren wrote:
>>> And as we all know, 99% of modules these days are found through  
>>> searches. I would recommend a much more subtle approach: ask  
>>> Andreas and Randy to... oops... accidentally remove it from their  
>>> indices, and therefore when people search for Time::, it won't  
>>> show up.
>> Of course the person who uploaded it may subscribe to this list or  
>> have found the public archives.
>
> True, but by the same token they've already read the rest of the  
> thread, so that's beside the point. Or else I'm missing your point.

Just that if you're hatching a cunning plan it's probably better to  
do it in private :)

-- 
Andy Armstrong, hexten.net

0
andy
2/8/2007 5:39:28 PM
On Thu, Feb 08, 2007 at 08:58:01AM -0800, alan wrote:
> >
> >On a more serious side, getting rid of it [Time::Cubic] should be
> >pretty open and shut. CPAN is a public resource managed by private
> >entities.

I'm generally against the idea of censorship in all its forms, and
/definitely/ against the idea of removing a Perl module from CPAN just
because something *within the code* offended somebody--or even lots of
somebodies!

I support the idea that a CPAN author has the right to write his (her,
etc.) code *any way he wants*/--which includes the use of comments that
might appear scurrilous to some (which appears to be the complaint
against Time::Cubic).

What's the alternative? That we have every CPAN Module scanned for
offensive components, including comments (# shit happens!), variable
names ($KKK), variable names (my $ugly_female_boss), and statement
labels? (NUKE_OJ_BUSH_AND_OSAMA: for $ever)

Wouldn't we be better off investing our collective JAPHly energies in
the expanding our market share and completion of Perl 6 and rather
than the creation of "Regexp::Common::Enforce_Code_Nazi_Policies"?

If we /were/ to become Code Nazis, the slippery-slope that we'd be
embarking on would unavoidably affect many "eccentric" modules
which people value (Regexp::Common::profanity_us,
Tie:Hash::Cannabinol, etc.).

I realize that some CPAN users live in countries where people have
strict limits on their freedom of expression, and I empathize with
those who have taken offense at someone else's indulgences of their
unbridled liberties.

But remember, Perl is the language that has a "poetry mode"!
It's designed for those who value unfettered self expression.

-Tim
*-------------------------------------------------------------------*
|  Tim Maher, PhD  (206) 781-UNIX   http://www.consultix-inc.com    |
|  tim at ( Consultix-Inc, TeachMePerl, or TeachMeUnix ) dot Com    |
| Classes: 2/28: Basic Perl; 3/12: Basic UNIX/Linux; 3/16: Min Perl |
*-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
|  * "Minimal Perl" book rates 4.8 out of 5 stars at Amazon.com! *  |
| > Download chapters, read reviews, and order at MinimalPerl.com < |
*-------------------------------------------------------------------*
0
tim
2/8/2007 5:48:57 PM
On Feb 8, 2007, at 11:20 AM, David Landgren wrote:

> I recommed against deleting it, because that only add fuel to the  
> fire. The crackpot who uploaded this drivel in the first place will  
> be able to crow freedom of speech and it's all a communist plot,  
> there really is a perl cabal and they're out to get me and blah  
> blah blah.

NOT deleting it could cause trouble for CPAN at large.  Some of the  
CPAN mirror sites are universities, etc. which may have policies  
against hate speech.

Freedom of speech varies across countries, but generally applies only  
to speech in public venues, or venues that you own/control.  CPAN is  
not a public venue, so freedom of speech does not apply here.  Just  
as I am not obligated to host such hate speech on my personal  
website, PAUSE/CPAN is not obligated to host it either.

Chris

P.S. Thank you Randy Kobes for quickly delisting this module.

--
Chris Dolan, Equilibrious LLC, http://equilibrious.net/
Public key: http://chrisdolan.net/public.key
vCard: http://chrisdolan.net/ChrisDolan.vcf



0
chris
2/8/2007 6:01:35 PM
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

    Given:

On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:20:18 +0100
David Landgren <david@landgren.net> wrote:
> I recommed against deleting it, because that only add fuel to the fire. 

    and:

> I would also recommend writing your (*) opinion about the module by 
> means of reviews on cpanratings, as well as annocpan and cpan::forum. 
> That way a third party will understand that the module is not condoned 
> by the general Perl community.

    I believe the latter is really "add fuel to the fire".  I personally
administrate several forums.  I fully understand the difficulty of "not
adding fuel to the fire" with this kind of psychos.  Whatever you do
will always enrage the author, but doing nothing is not right, too,
since that will keep enrage other people from time to time and the flame
war never ends.

    As an administrator of several forums, from my personal experience,
the first method hurts the least.

--
Best regards,
imacat ^_*' <imacat@mail.imacat.idv.tw>
PGP Key: http://www.imacat.idv.tw/me/pgpkey.txt

<<Woman's Voice>> News: http://www.wov.idv.tw/
Tavern IMACAT's: http://www.imacat.idv.tw/
TLUG List Manager: http://lists.linux.org.tw/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tlug

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0
imacat
2/8/2007 6:07:31 PM
Tim Maher wrote:

>On Thu, Feb 08, 2007 at 08:58:01AM -0800, alan wrote:
>  
>
>>>On a more serious side, getting rid of it [Time::Cubic] should be
>>>pretty open and shut. CPAN is a public resource managed by private
>>>entities.
>>>      
>>>
>
>I'm generally against the idea of censorship in all its forms, and
>/definitely/ against the idea of removing a Perl module from CPAN just
>because something *within the code* offended somebody--or even lots of
>somebodies!
>
>I support the idea that a CPAN author has the right to write his (her,
>etc.) code *any way he wants*/--which includes the use of comments that
>might appear scurrilous to some (which appears to be the complaint
>against Time::Cubic).
>  
>
I'm up for freedom from censorship and the right to offend as much as 
anyone. However, that doesn't mean I want Nazis teaching school children.

I'm not sure if you've read the module in question. Its not comments 
within code, its a small meaningless piece of perl that achieves nothing 
in an otherwise long rant.

In short - it is ( IMHO ) a piece of spam that perverts CPAN into a 
publishing resource - regardless of the right of a programmer to express 
himself freely CPAN is a perl archive network, not a collection of 
literary works. I'd like it kept free from adverts for stocks, sex 
drugs, or political rants and left to fullfill its potential.

Respectfully,

Steve

0
stevep
2/8/2007 6:12:44 PM
Tim Maher wrote:
> I'm generally against the idea of censorship in all its forms, ...

Are you equally outraged by the fact that this list goes through a spam 
filter?  That "module" is just spam.

-- 
Keith C. Ivey <keith@iveys.org>
Washington, DC
0
keith
2/8/2007 6:15:05 PM
On Feb 8, 2007, at 11:48 AM, Tim Maher wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 08, 2007 at 08:58:01AM -0800, alan wrote:
>>>
>>> On a more serious side, getting rid of it [Time::Cubic] should be
>>> pretty open and shut. CPAN is a public resource managed by private
>>> entities.
>
> I'm generally against the idea of censorship in all its forms, and
> /definitely/ against the idea of removing a Perl module from CPAN just
> because something *within the code* offended somebody--or even lots of
> somebodies!
>
> I support the idea that a CPAN author has the right to write his (her,
> etc.) code *any way he wants*/--which includes the use of comments  
> that
> might appear scurrilous to some (which appears to be the complaint
> against Time::Cubic).

Yes, the author may have the right to write that code, but does CPAN  
have the obligation to host it?

> What's the alternative? That we have every CPAN Module scanned for
> offensive components, including comments (# shit happens!), variable
> names ($KKK), variable names (my $ugly_female_boss), and statement
> labels? (NUKE_OJ_BUSH_AND_OSAMA: for $ever)

The alternative is that the powers-that-be respond to the community's  
requests on a case-by-case basis using their own judgment.  Proactive  
scanning/moderation would clearly be impractical and has been  
rejected on previous occasions on this list.

> Wouldn't we be better off investing our collective JAPHly energies in
> the expanding our market share and completion of Perl 6 and rather
> than the creation of "Regexp::Common::Enforce_Code_Nazi_Policies"?

Personally, I think fighting hatred is a more worthwhile use of  
energy than finishing Perl 6.

<offtopic>Your choice of the word "Nazi" is conspicuous given the  
ASCII art in the Time::Cubic comments.</offtopic>

> If we /were/ to become Code Nazis, the slippery-slope that we'd be
> embarking on would unavoidably affect many "eccentric" modules
> which people value (Regexp::Common::profanity_us,
> Tie:Hash::Cannabinol, etc.).

Is the slope really that slippery?  I doubt that anyone here finds  
any value in the Time::Cubic module.  Furthermore, I have not heard  
anyone complain about those other modules you mention.  I don't think  
anybody has proposed a blanket policy against offensive modules.   
Instead, the requests I've seen so far are simply to remove  
Time::Cubic from CPAN.

I think your invocation of the slippery slope argument is fallacious,  
and I have confidence in the CPAN community's collective wisdom to  
call for the removal of only truly inappropriate modules.

> I realize that some CPAN users live in countries where people have
> strict limits on their freedom of expression, and I empathize with
> those who have taken offense at someone else's indulgences of their
> unbridled liberties.
>
> But remember, Perl is the language that has a "poetry mode"!
> It's designed for those who value unfettered self expression.

Sure, but how does that translate into "CPAN must host all crap  
thrown at it"?

Chris

--
Chris Dolan, Equilibrious LLC, http://equilibrious.net/
Public key: http://chrisdolan.net/public.key
vCard: http://chrisdolan.net/ChrisDolan.vcf



0
chris
2/8/2007 6:21:28 PM
On Feb 8, 2007, at 11:48 AM, Tim Maher wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 08, 2007 at 08:58:01AM -0800, alan wrote:
>>>
>>> On a more serious side, getting rid of it [Time::Cubic] should be
>>> pretty open and shut. CPAN is a public resource managed by private
>>> entities.
>
> I'm generally against the idea of censorship in all its forms, and
> /definitely/ against the idea of removing a Perl module from CPAN just
> because something *within the code* offended somebody--or even lots of
> somebodies!
>
> I support the idea that a CPAN author has the right to write his (her,
> etc.) code *any way he wants*/--which includes the use of comments  
> that
> might appear scurrilous to some (which appears to be the complaint
> against Time::Cubic).

Yes, the author may have the right to write that code, but does CPAN  
have the obligation to host it?

> What's the alternative? That we have every CPAN Module scanned for
> offensive components, including comments (# shit happens!), variable
> names ($KKK), variable names (my $ugly_female_boss), and statement
> labels? (NUKE_OJ_BUSH_AND_OSAMA: for $ever)

The alternative is that the powers-that-be respond to the community's  
requests on a case-by-case basis using their own judgment.  Proactive  
scanning/moderation would clearly be impractical and has been  
rejected on previous occasions on this list.

> Wouldn't we be better off investing our collective JAPHly energies in
> the expanding our market share and completion of Perl 6 and rather
> than the creation of "Regexp::Common::Enforce_Code_Nazi_Policies"?

Personally, I think fighting hatred is a more worthwhile use of  
energy than finishing Perl 6.

<offtopic>Your choice of the word "Nazi" is conspicuous given the  
ASCII art in the Time::Cubic comments.</offtopic>

> If we /were/ to become Code Nazis, the slippery-slope that we'd be
> embarking on would unavoidably affect many "eccentric" modules
> which people value (Regexp::Common::profanity_us,
> Tie:Hash::Cannabinol, etc.).

Is the slope really that slippery?  I doubt that anyone here finds  
any value in the Time::Cubic module.  Furthermore, I have not heard  
anyone complain about those other modules you mention.  I don't think  
anybody has proposed a blanket policy against offensive modules.   
Instead, the requests I've seen so far are simply to remove  
Time::Cubic from CPAN.

I think your invocation of the slippery slope argument is fallacious,  
and I have confidence in the CPAN community's collective wisdom to  
call for the removal of only truly inappropriate modules.

> I realize that some CPAN users live in countries where people have
> strict limits on their freedom of expression, and I empathize with
> those who have taken offense at someone else's indulgences of their
> unbridled liberties.
>
> But remember, Perl is the language that has a "poetry mode"!
> It's designed for those who value unfettered self expression.

Sure, but how does that translate into "CPAN must host all crap  
thrown at it"?

Chris

0
chris
2/8/2007 6:27:48 PM
Dave Rolsky wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, Joshua ben Jore wrote:
>
>> I'd just read of Time::Cube, a disjointed rant full of hate speech.
>> This is the kind of content that is most deserving of deletion from
>> CPAN. Would the responsible parties please go nuke this, please?
>
> Just to clarify for the curious, to see the bile you have to take a =20=

> look at the module's source. It's not in the docs.

I would just consider this distribution as spam, and treat it as is.

(Usually, I simply punch the <delete> key.)

--=20
S=E9bastien Aperghis-Tramoni

Close the world, txEn eht nepO.


0
maddingue
2/8/2007 6:46:57 PM
On Thu, Feb 08, 2007 at 06:12:44PM +0000, Steve Pitchford wrote:
> Tim Maher wrote:
> 
> >On Thu, Feb 08, 2007 at 08:58:01AM -0800, alan wrote:
> > 
> >>>On a more serious side, getting rid of it [Time::Cubic] should be
> >>>pretty open and shut. CPAN is a public resource managed by private
> >>>entities.
> >
> >I'm generally against the idea of censorship in all its forms, and
> >/definitely/ against the idea of removing a Perl module from CPAN just
> >because something *within the code* offended somebody--or even lots of
> >somebodies!
> 
> I'm not sure if you've read the module in question. Its not comments 
> within code, its a small meaningless piece of perl that achieves nothing 
> in an otherwise long rant.

Hmm. While conveying my thoughts on this issue earlier, I relied on a
characterization of Time::Cubic in an earlier posting that led me to
believe that it was *comments within the module* that were offending
people. The notion of policing those struck me as an unwarranted
intrusion into the programmer's domain, which led to my spirited
(albeit misplaced) defense of the programmer's rights.

Now that I've looked at the module's *documentation*--which is the
bulk of what it has to offer--I see that there is a lengthy anti-
semitic rant by an apparently troubled individual--formatted as Perl
comments--embedded within "code" shown in the License section. That's
a bird of a different feather.

> In short - it is ( IMHO ) a piece of spam that perverts CPAN into a 
> publishing resource 
<SNIP>
> Steve

I now understand why so many people were voting for "censorship", with
so few defending the rights of the programmer. Given what we're dealing
with, I'm now in agreement that this "Module" is effectively spam, and
should be treated accordingly.

-Tim
*-------------------------------------------------------------------*
|  Tim Maher, PhD  (206) 781-UNIX   http://www.consultix-inc.com    |
|  tim at ( Consultix-Inc, TeachMePerl, or TeachMeUnix ) dot Com    |
| Classes: 2/28: Basic Perl; 3/12: Basic UNIX/Linux; 3/16: Min Perl |
*-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
|  * "Minimal Perl" book rates 4.8 out of 5 stars at Amazon.com! *  |
| > Download chapters, read reviews, and order at MinimalPerl.com < |
*-------------------------------------------------------------------*
0
tim
2/8/2007 6:52:55 PM
On Thu, 8 Feb 2007, Tim Maher wrote:

[ ... ]
> I now understand why so many people were voting for "censorship", with
> so few defending the rights of the programmer. Given what we're dealing
> with, I'm now in agreement that this "Module" is effectively spam, and
> should be treated accordingly.

Perhaps, if nothing else, the terms of usage of the package:
    http://search.cpan.org/src/BANTOWN/Time-Cubic-1.0/LICENSE
by which one *must* commit at least three violations of the 
named parts of the US Criminal Code to use it, makes it
unsuitable for CPAN.

-- 
best regards,
Randy
0
randy
2/8/2007 7:11:06 PM
On Thu, 8 Feb 2007, Randy Kobes wrote:

> On Thu, 8 Feb 2007, Tim Maher wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>> I now understand why so many people were voting for "censorship", with
>> so few defending the rights of the programmer. Given what we're dealing
>> with, I'm now in agreement that this "Module" is effectively spam, and
>> should be treated accordingly.
>
> Perhaps, if nothing else, the terms of usage of the package:
>   http://search.cpan.org/src/BANTOWN/Time-Cubic-1.0/LICENSE
> by which one *must* commit at least three violations of the named parts of 
> the US Criminal Code to use it, makes it
> unsuitable for CPAN.

But use it for what?  It seems pretty useless from a functional viewpoint. 
It is more suited to posting to the psychoceramics list than it is CPAN. 
(If that list is still around.  I should check.)

If it did something useful and contained psychotic screeds, I might cut it 
a bit of slack, but this thing is useless.

-- 
"Invoking the supernatural can explain anything, and hence explains nothing."
                   - University of Utah bioengineering professor Gregory Clark
0
alan
2/8/2007 7:21:37 PM
# from Randy Kobes
# on Thursday 08 February 2007 11:11 am:

>Perhaps, if nothing else, the terms of usage of the package:
>=A0 =A0 http://search.cpan.org/src/BANTOWN/Time-Cubic-1.0/LICENSE
>by which one *must* commit at least three violations of the
>named parts of the US Criminal Code to use it, makes it
>unsuitable for CPAN.

Exactly.  There is no freedom of speech issue here.  There is nothing to=20
discuss.

If it had been uploaded under a different license, somebody could post a=20
revision to it that performs the same useless function in about 12=20
lines.

=2D-Eric
=2D-=20
Turns out the optimal technique is to put it in reverse and gun it.
=2D-Steven Squyres (on challenges in interplanetary robot navigation)
=2D--------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
=2D--------------------------------------------------
0
scratchcomputing
2/8/2007 7:28:03 PM
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scratchcomputing@gmail.com wrote:
> # from Randy Kobes
> # on Thursday 08 February 2007 11:11 am:
>
>   
>> Perhaps, if nothing else, the terms of usage of the package:
>>     http://search.cpan.org/src/BANTOWN/Time-Cubic-1.0/LICENSE
>> by which one *must* commit at least three violations of the
>> named parts of the US Criminal Code to use it, makes it
>> unsuitable for CPAN.
>>     
>
> Exactly.  There is no freedom of speech issue here.  There is nothing to 
> discuss.
>
> If it had been uploaded under a different license, somebody could post a 
> revision to it that performs the same useless function in about 12 
> lines.
>
> --Eric
>   
This has got to be one of the most meaningless bits of code that I have 
ever run across.  Just delete it and its insanely hate filled ramblings.

-- 

Your Friendly Neighborhood DBA,

Chuck
 

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</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:scratchcomputing@gmail.com">scratchcomputing@gmail.com</a> wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid200702081128.03739.ewilhelm@cpan.org" type="cite">
  <pre wrap=""># from Randy Kobes
# on Thursday 08 February 2007 11:11 am:

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Perhaps, if nothing else, the terms of usage of the package:
&nbsp; &nbsp; <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://search.cpan.org/src/BANTOWN/Time-Cubic-1.0/LICENSE">http://search.cpan.org/src/BANTOWN/Time-Cubic-1.0/LICENSE</a>
by which one *must* commit at least three violations of the
named parts of the US Criminal Code to use it, makes it
unsuitable for CPAN.
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
Exactly.  There is no freedom of speech issue here.  There is nothing to 
discuss.

If it had been uploaded under a different license, somebody could post a 
revision to it that performs the same useless function in about 12 
lines.

--Eric
  </pre>
</blockquote>
This has got to be one of the most meaningless bits of code that I have
ever run across.&nbsp; Just delete it and its insanely hate filled ramblings.<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<br>
Your Friendly Neighborhood DBA, <br>
<br>
Chuck <br>
&nbsp;<br>
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</body>
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0
chuckfox2
2/8/2007 7:33:05 PM
Tim Maher schreef:

> I'm generally against the idea of censorship in all its forms

This has nothing to do with censorship. Somebody is dropping garbage in
our yard. If that person just wants to cause trouble and doesn't remove
it, luckily somebody else will be so good.

-- 
Affijn, Ruud

"Gewoon is een tijger."

0
rvtol
2/8/2007 7:33:39 PM
Randy Kobes wrote:

[...]

> Perhaps, if nothing else, the terms of usage of the package:
>    http://search.cpan.org/src/BANTOWN/Time-Cubic-1.0/LICENSE
> by which one *must* commit at least three violations of the named parts 
> of the US Criminal Code to use it, makes it
> unsuitable for CPAN.

Continuing as the devil's advocate, I still can't decide if that's just 
a parody on the whole license issue. It's just too over the top.

That said, I agree that CPAN doesn't have to be the vector for 
distributing this useless drivel. While the license gave me a big laugh, 
the comments in the source code are distinctly unfunny.

David
0
david
2/8/2007 8:51:38 PM
>>>>> On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:11:43 -0800, "Joshua ben Jore" <twists@gmail.com> said:

  > I'd just read of Time::Cube, a disjointed rant full of hate speech.
  > This is the kind of content that is most deserving of deletion from
  > CPAN. Would the responsible parties please go nuke this, please?

Thanks, Joshua and all others in this thread for their heads up.
Please continue to be that wake and watchful.

I've removed account and directory.

Thanks again,
-- 
andreas
0
andreas
2/8/2007 9:08:36 PM
David Landgren wrote:
> Continuing as the devil's advocate, I still can't decide if that's just
> a parody on the whole license issue. It's just too over the top.
> 
> That said, I agree that CPAN doesn't have to be the vector for
> distributing this useless drivel. While the license gave me a big laugh,
> the comments in the source code are distinctly unfunny.

In this day and age, it's not worth opening up mirror owners to lawsuits
from module authors because we think something might be a joke --
lawsuits cost you money even if you win.  (Also, if this module is a
"joke"... it's really not all that funny.  It's juvenile stupidity at best.)

It's ESPECIALLY not worth the legal risk for such a stupid and
controversial module.  The license looks non-Free, the module sucks, so
deletion is a no-brainer.  It's not worth the time spent guessing.

If licensing is the only reason for deleting this thing, then
delete first and allow the author to reupload with a Free license later.
  CPAN has rules.  Let's enforce them.

-- 
package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do {
$,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //,
";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup;
0
jon
2/8/2007 9:13:17 PM
On Feb 8, 4:13 pm, j...@jrock.us (Jonathan Rockway) wrote:
> David Landgren wrote:
> > Continuing as the devil's advocate, I still can't decide if that's just
> > a parody on the whole license issue. It's just too over the top.
>
> > That said, I agree that CPAN doesn't have to be the vector for
> > distributing this useless drivel. While the license gave me a big laugh,
> > the comments in the source code are distinctly unfunny.
>
> In this day and age, it's not worth opening up mirror owners to lawsuits
> from module authors because we think something might be a joke --
> lawsuits cost you money even if you win.  (Also, if this module is a
> "joke"... it's really not all that funny.  It's juvenile stupidity at best.)
>

Excuse me, but Time::Cubic is no joke.  It is a testament to the great
Gene Ray, and the message he has brought us from the year 2051.  If
you decide not to heed this message, and instead follow a queer jewish
god, then you are truly evil.

> It's ESPECIALLY not worth the legal risk for such a stupid and
> controversial module.  The license looks non-Free, the module sucks, so
> deletion is a no-brainer.  It's not worth the time spent guessing.
>

The Bantown Public License is Free, in every sense of the word.   If
you have a problem with freedom, then you are ignorant.  Indeed, you
are ignorant, educated stupid.  THINK.

> If licensing is the only reason for deleting this thing, then
> delete first and allow the author to reupload with a Free license later.
>   CPAN has rules.  Let's enforce them.
>

If I must release my module under a dual GPL/BPL license in order for
it to be accepted to CPAN (as the module is currently used in many
various enterprise applications), then so I shall.

> --
> package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do {
> $,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //,
> ";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup;

Also, your JAPH clearly marks you as being enslaved by Word.  A queer
jewish god.

To quote the great Gene Ray:

YOU DESERVE DEATH -
FOR SINGULARITY EVIL
in the  Universe of Opposites.

0
joseph
2/8/2007 11:34:26 PM
Randy Kobes wrote:
> Perhaps, if nothing else, the terms of usage of the package:
>    http://search.cpan.org/src/BANTOWN/Time-Cubic-1.0/LICENSE
> by which one *must* commit at least three violations of the named parts 
> of the US Criminal Code to use it, makes it
> unsuitable for CPAN.

Hmm, SNMP::APCUPS uses the same license.  Perhaps the problem is wider 
than we think.

-- 
Keith C. Ivey <keith@iveys.org>
Washington, DC
0
keith
2/9/2007 4:27:30 AM
On Thu, Feb 08, 2007 at 03:34:26PM -0800, joseph.evers@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> Excuse me, but Time::Cubic is no joke.  It is a testament to the great
> Gene Ray, and the message he has brought us from the year 2051. If

	CPAN is not a repository of testaments. No one opposes the publication
of the material, merely the forum. Find a better home for it.

	Austin
0
tex
2/9/2007 6:25:47 PM
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On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:27:30 -0500
Keith Ivey <keith@iveys.org> wrote:
> Hmm, SNMP::APCUPS uses the same license.  Perhaps the problem is wider 
> than we think.

    So, what about this SNMP::APCUPS?  It uses the same Bantown lincense. 
Shall it be removed, too?

--
Best regards,
imacat ^_*' <imacat@mail.imacat.idv.tw>
PGP Key: http://www.imacat.idv.tw/me/pgpkey.txt

<<Woman's Voice>> News: http://www.wov.idv.tw/
Tavern IMACAT's: http://www.imacat.idv.tw/
TLUG List Manager: http://lists.linux.org.tw/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tlug

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0
imacat
2/11/2007 7:59:08 AM
--- imacat <imacat@mail.imacat.idv.tw> wrote:
>     So, what about this SNMP::APCUPS?  It uses the same Bantown lincense. 
> Shall it be removed, too?

It should be.  I'm pretty sure that the license is invalid because you can't
require someone to commit crimes as part of a license agreement, but even
despite that, I find parts of the license to be a tad offensive.  Also,
distributing a license which suggests that people engage in ...

  * 18 U.S.C. � 1751 Presidential and Presidential staff
  assassination, kidnapping, and assault

.... could very well be illegal in the US as threatening the President is a
crime.

Cheers,
Ovid

--

Buy the book -- http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlhks/
Perl and CGI -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/
0
publiustemp
2/11/2007 4:39:47 PM
Dear Rev. Jeffrey Paul,

it's been a while that you uploaded you SNMP::APCUPS module to CPAN.
First of all, Thanks for your contribution.

Unfortunately your work is accompanied by a strange license that might
be satire or might just as well be serious hatred. The problem is that
it's hard to tell and we as perl programmers do not want to spend our
time in puzzling out what it is, much less in arguing with law
enforcement about the humourous taste of our software contributors.

So please pull your module from CPAN within the next 7 days. You're
welcome to upload a new version that comes without such constructions
that need complicated legal examination. CPAN is not the place for
that.


Thank you for your understanding,
-- 
andreas
0
andreas
2/11/2007 6:51:58 PM
(Andreas J. Koenig) wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:11:43 -0800, "Joshua ben Jore" <twists@gmail.com> said:
> 
>   > I'd just read of Time::Cube, a disjointed rant full of hate speech.
>   > This is the kind of content that is most deserving of deletion from
>   > CPAN. Would the responsible parties please go nuke this, please?
> 
> Thanks, Joshua and all others in this thread for their heads up.
> Please continue to be that wake and watchful.
> 
> I've removed account and directory.
> 
> Thanks again,

To sum up, this was not spam or hate speech.

It's just a (successful) troll, but a known trolling group.

There is no case of standards or censorship to answer here either.

CPAN is owned by Andreas for all intents and purposes, and what stays or 
what goes is ultimately down to him.

Case closed.

Adam K
0
cpan
2/13/2007 3:41:12 PM
Reply:

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