Whats the deal with this delphi haters blog?

http://delphihaters.blogspot.com/


There are some complete bull crap posts there, anyone know who is behind it?

Just wondering as it popped up when I was doing a search for 64bit delphi and Firemonkey.
0
Tony
8/9/2011 7:28:09 PM
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> {quote:title=Tony Caduto wrote:}{quote}
> http://delphihaters.blogspot.com/
> 


I particularly enjoyed this fine entry:

"David I's article want more peace reminded me of the 1960's - when the Roosevelt administration authorized the dropping of the Atomic Bomb."

Roosevelt was long dead in the 60s, and it was Truman who authorised dropping it.........
0
Tony
8/9/2011 9:09:12 PM
> {quote:title=Tony Caduto wrote:}{quote}
> http://delphihaters.blogspot.com/
> 
> There are some complete bull crap posts there, anyone know who is behind it?
> 
> Just wondering as it popped up when I was doing a search for 64bit delphi and Firemonkey.

There's a document out there called the "Unix Haters' Handbook" that describes in great and rather bitter detail all sorts of stuff that's wrong with Unix/Linux, both on a technical and on a user experience level.  It's written by people who have a lot of experience using *nix systems and really know what they're talking about, and it's detailed enough that some of their work was actually used as the basis for bug reports in various *nix systems.

I think Mr. Hater is trying to do something similar for Delphi.  Unfortunately, his skill is somewhat lacking, and what he writes mostly just comes across as trolling.  It can be entertaining to read sometimes, though...
1
Mason
8/9/2011 9:51:33 PM
Tony Caduto wrote:

> anyone know who is behind it?

I don't, but I personally find the blog enormously entertaining and
well done.

-- 
Nick Hodges -- Product Development Manager
Gateway Ticketing Systems
http://www.gatewayticketing.com
0
Nick
8/9/2011 9:55:11 PM
Nick Hodges wrote:

> Tony Caduto wrote:
> 
> > anyone know who is behind it?
> 
> I don't, but I personally find the blog enormously entertaining and
> well done.

No smileys, no sarcasm tags???

So, I should see that blog as something like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uwOL4rB-go
(replace Achmed with Delphi if you want)?

-- 
Pieter

"Ah well, then I suppose I shall have to die beyond my means." 
 -- Oscar Wilde, dying words
0
Pieter
8/9/2011 10:58:31 PM
Pieter Zijlstra wrote:

> 
> No smileys, no sarcasm tags???

No, seriously, I like it. ;-)

-- 
Nick Hodges -- Product Development Manager
Gateway Ticketing Systems
http://www.gatewayticketing.com
0
Nick
8/9/2011 10:59:53 PM
Tony Caduto wrote:

> > {quote:title=Tony Caduto wrote:}{quote}
> > http://delphihaters.blogspot.com/
> > 
> 
> 
> I particularly enjoyed this fine entry:
> 
> "David I's article want more peace reminded me of the 1960's - when
> the Roosevelt administration authorized the dropping of the Atomic
> Bomb."
> 
> Roosevelt was long dead in the 60s, and it was Truman who authorised
> dropping it.........

And it was not in the sixties.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis

"The most amazing achievement of the computer software industry
 is its continuing cancellation of the steady and staggering
 gains made by the computer hardware industry." -- Henry Petroski
0
Rudy
8/9/2011 11:04:37 PM
Nick Hodges wrote:

> Pieter Zijlstra wrote:
> 
> > 
> > No smileys, no sarcasm tags???
> 
> No, seriously, I like it. ;-)

Well, I can't say I like it, but maybe that's just caused by the name
of the bldg, it is entertaining though ;-)  The bldg second title "The
Delphi Love-Hate affair" does make it sound as if they are not just
really trying to hurt Delphi in any possible/unsubstantiated way...

.... but some of the past blogs did make it sound as if it was their
main goal.

Recent blogs does seem to reflect what was already discussed here on
non-tech, but in general they tend to be slightly negative which makes
me wonder; how serious are they about the Love part in "The Delphi
Love-Hate affair"?

-- 
Pieter

Robert E. Lee's Truce: Judgement comes from experience; 
experience comes from poor judgement.
0
Pieter
8/9/2011 11:46:29 PM
I think "Delphi Hater" is a schizophrenic of some variety! In some of his wildly inaccurate "rants" he seems to actually +hate+ Delphi, but in others he appears to love it.

It would be mildly entertaining if he ever got anything right for once!
0
Simon
8/10/2011 1:43:08 AM
> {quote:title=Pieter Zijlstra wrote:}{quote}
> The bldg second title "The
> Delphi Love-Hate affair" does make it sound as if they are not just
> really trying to hurt Delphi in any possible/unsubstantiated way...
> 
> ... but some of the past blogs did make it sound as if it was their
> main goal.
> 
> Recent blogs does seem to reflect what was already discussed here on
> non-tech, but in general they tend to be slightly negative which makes
> me wonder; how serious are they about the Love part in "The Delphi
> Love-Hate affair"?

Sometimes you can be most negative towards something / someone you love.
0
David
8/10/2011 1:48:06 AM
> {quote:title=David Millington wrote:}{quote}
> Sometimes you can be most negative towards something / someone you love.

And an addendum to that: take the Starter edition thread at the moment.  I've been reading that with interest since I agree that the Starter is not great - but really, it's just not great +for me+.  I've been trying very hard not to get involved in that thread, since I have strong feelings about it.  The reason I have such strong feelings and feel, to be melodramatic, "betrayed" by the SKU & pricing scheme is that I really like Delphi.  It'd be much easier if I didn't care.

(I'm not going to say I love Delphi; it's a software product not a person.  I don't love my car either, even though I have an amazing one.  But I've used Delphi since version 1 and stuck by it and defended to other people and... I suppose that engenders that kind of feeling.)

Cheers,

David
0
David
8/10/2011 1:52:05 AM
> {quote:title=David Millington wrote:}{quote}
> Sometimes you can be most negative towards something / someone you love.

Very true.  I once heard, "the opposite of love is not hate, it's apathy.  You can't
hate something you don't care about."
0
Mason
8/10/2011 1:52:18 AM
<Tony Caduto> wrote in message news:386031@forums.embarcadero.com...
>> {quote:title=Tony Caduto wrote:}{quote}
>> http://delphihaters.blogspot.com/
>>
>
>
> I particularly enjoyed this fine entry:
>
> "David I's article want more peace reminded me of the 1960's - when the 
> Roosevelt administration authorized the dropping of the Atomic Bomb."
>
> Roosevelt was long dead in the 60s, and it was Truman who authorised 
> dropping it.........

Not to mention that the bomb was dropped in August 1945.

Ray
0
Lester
8/10/2011 2:02:35 AM
> {quote:title=David Millington wrote:}{quote}
> I've been reading that with interest ... I've been trying very hard not to get involved in that thread...

Ooops.  I gave in.  https://forums.embarcadero.com/messageview.jspa?messageID=378044
0
David
8/10/2011 4:17:53 AM
Am 09.08.2011 23:09, Tony Caduto wrote:
>> {quote:title=Tony Caduto wrote:}{quote}
>> http://delphihaters.blogspot.com/
>>
>
>
> I particularly enjoyed this fine entry:
>
> "David I's article want more peace reminded me of the 1960's - when the Roosevelt administration authorized the dropping of the Atomic Bomb."
>
> Roosevelt was long dead in the 60s, and it was Truman who authorised dropping it.........

First hit in Google for "roosevelt administration atomic bomb":

"The Roosevelt administration defined the bomb as a legitimate weapon, 
assumed that it would be used against the enemy, and knew by 1944 that 
the likely target was Japan, not Germany"

Bulletin of the atomic scientists, December 1975, p. 13


Maybe this is what the author had in mind (but sixties is wrong)
0
Michael
8/10/2011 5:07:38 AM
> {quote:title=Tony Caduto wrote:}{quote}
> http://delphihaters.blogspot.com/
> 
> 
> There are some complete bull crap posts there, anyone know who is behind it?
> 
> Just wondering as it popped up when I was doing a search for 64bit delphi and Firemonkey.


there are some posts there that push the edge.. there are some others that are painfully true.

I remember a time when Borland products were all about the hobbyist/student/engineers who wanted to "get stuff done".

Now? Enterprise SA deals or bust, son.
0
Sean
8/10/2011 5:31:29 AM
> I particularly enjoyed this fine entry:

Bah, don't let a bunch of incorrect fact get in the way of a pointless 
argument ;-)

Eric
0
Eric
8/10/2011 6:16:19 AM
David Millington wrote:

> Sometimes you can be most negative towards something / someone you love.

I agree with that very much.  Embarcadero gets quite some stick in this 
forum, and there are many negative comments about the company (and some 
about Delphi).

But this is clearly because people care passionately.  If they didn't, 
they'd feel indifferent and drift away.

I don't think the guy would bother to run a blog trashing one 
particular software product if he didn't feel strongly about it.

-- 
SteveT
0
Steve
8/10/2011 8:06:21 AM
Ice skating with the devil and flying pigs perhaps.

I seriously loved that comment of yours last week Nick - and Jolyons
response ...

Nick Hodges wrote:

> ...
> No, seriously, I like it. ;-)
0
R
8/10/2011 12:19:06 PM
Ralph Horbury-Smith wrote:

> I seriously loved that comment of yours last week Nick - and Jolyons
> response ...

;-)

-- 
Nick Hodges -- Product Development Manager
Gateway Ticketing Systems
http://www.gatewayticketing.com
0
Nick
8/10/2011 4:03:00 PM
Sean Malloy wrote:

> 
> I remember a time when Borland products were all about the
> hobbyist/student/engineers who wanted to "get stuff done".
> 
> Now? Enterprise SA deals or bust, son.

That's not entirely true,  but I also remember when there was no such
thing as a corporate network and enterprise applications.

Times change.  The days of the $49 compiler changing the world are
long, long gone.

-- 
Nick Hodges -- Product Development Manager
Gateway Ticketing Systems
http://www.gatewayticketing.com
0
Nick
8/10/2011 4:53:09 PM
> {quote:title=Nick Hodges wrote:}{quote}
> Times change.  The days of the $49 compiler changing the world are
> long, long gone.

Well, they are if people hold to that attitude...
0
Mason
8/10/2011 4:59:56 PM
Mason Wheeler wrote:

> Well, they are if people hold to that attitude...

Uhm..... exactly..?

-- 
Nick Hodges -- Product Development Manager
Gateway Ticketing Systems
http://www.gatewayticketing.com
0
Nick
8/10/2011 5:06:12 PM
Who knows ...

If you look at the picture of the DavidI blog ... A victory sign, the shirt - It reminded me of something different. I hope he does not want to tell us something this way and it is really just a photo and no analogy can be found soon.

This Delphi release I personally call the Delphi Watergate Release (because of the NDA secrets) and the exploits and 

(* I am aware that Watergate was in the 70s but Nixon was elected in 68 *)

the next 

Delphi Woostock - 

Naked stoned flower children dance on an EMB World Tour ... 'With a little help from my friends...'.

- Naked - because they cannot even afford a shirt because because of the high prices 
- Stoned - because they still purchase Delphi at this price instead of a shirt
- Flower Children - Big visions especially in San Francisco (Scott McKenzie) with the same chance to become reality

I agree - this would have been the 60s.  

{sarcasms off} 
But not the atomic bomb - it worked. :)
{default sarcasms to on } :)

Mike

Edited by: Michael Thuma on Aug 10, 2011 11:14 AM
0
Michael
8/10/2011 6:32:18 PM
On 10.08.2011 20:18, Michael Thuma wrote:

> {sarcasms off}
> But not the atomic bomb - it worked. :)
> {default sarcasms to on } :)

Many thinks it would have worked anyway since Japan already had 
surrended, but the American liaison officer misinterpreted it. 
(Hopefully not by will)
0
Alf
8/10/2011 6:34:04 PM
On 10.08.2011 03:52, Mason Wheeler wrote:
>> {quote:title=David Millington wrote:}{quote}
>> Sometimes you can be most negative towards something / someone you love.
>
> Very true.  I once heard, "the opposite of love is not hate, it's apathy.  You can't
> hate something you don't care about."

Well, it depends on how often you get annoyed by a person you once loved :-)

I would think the time progression is more like

Love -> apathy -> hate
0
Alf
8/10/2011 6:40:03 PM
> {quote:title=Nick Hodges wrote:}{quote}
> Sean Malloy wrote:
> > 
> > I remember a time when Borland products were all about the
> > hobbyist/student/engineers who wanted to "get stuff done".
> > 
> > Now? Enterprise SA deals or bust, son.
> 
> That's not entirely true,  but I also remember when there was no such
> thing as a corporate network and enterprise applications.

yeah, then Java came along.
 
> Times change.  The days of the $49 compiler changing the world are
> long, long gone.

I think the pricing for the starter edition of Delphi XE is just about right on the money, but it gets the feature matrix wrong - The days of the "$49 compiler" are still here, there's just been a little inflation on the price (Although MS offering very good quality products for free (ignoring lock-in/licensing).

I think Embarcadero should move to more of a micro-transacation model for Delphi, where you buy exactly what you need.

Base System: IDE(File Management/Debugger/Syntax Highlighting/Code Nav) $99    - essentially allowing you to do console only apps
- VCL: Add VCL Framework for $99 - basic windows apps (Also allows the display of registered components in the IDE)
- VCL+: Add additional VCL components by embarcadero, $99
- Allow IDE Addins - $99
- dbExpress - $99

and so on so forth

does Starter edition need to generate windows apps? No

Sure, a technically minded person could possibly take old Delphi VCL source code, and compile it.... but these people are going to find work arounds no matter what you do (hacked copies, whatever), for $99, it's simply easier for me to just buy the VCL Component access...

I dunno, no doubt I'm beating a dead horse here - the people who agree with me, already do, and I'm not going to convince anyone else (let alone people at embarcadero). At work we'll still buy our enterprise SA... so it's not going to make any difference to us

but I can't see much new blood being injected into Delphi right now, even with XE2's features.
0
Sean
8/11/2011 12:13:21 AM
> {quote:title=Sean Malloy wrote:}{quote}
> > Times change.  The days of the $49 compiler changing the world are
> > long, long gone.
> 
> I think the pricing for the starter edition of Delphi XE is just about right on the money, but it gets the feature matrix wrong - The days of the "$49 compiler" are still here, there's just been a little inflation on the price (Although MS offering very good quality products for free (ignoring lock-in/licensing).

$49US in 1985 is about $102US now.  (Via http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ .)  So that seems about right.

On the other hand, Turbo Pascal in 1985 had, for its time, a fully-featured debugger, IDE, etc, and it was an amazing program by all accounts.  In 2011, Delphi Starter is an equivalent price, but has a non-fully-functional debugger, doesn't include the VCL source, although it does have the IDE etc.  It's less functional than the full program, and it's less functional in ways that get in the way of usefully using it.  I think the point is that there used to be an amazing product for a great price, and now 
there's a partially crippled product for the same price.  As I said in my last post, $2600 for RS Pro plus the upgrade option is out of many individuals' league, especially depending on how often and for what it's used.  I still think there's room for a non-commercial or non-profit edition - one which you can actually fully use.

Perhaps the best question is, what is the product supposed to do?  Get new programmers using Delphi?  If they've never programmed before, maybe this will help.  If they have, ever, in any language, it won't (and surely of the group of potential new Delphi programmers, there are far more potential programmers who already know how to program, than potential programmers who don't know how to program at all.)  And if it's supposed to be great for the hobbyists, the casual weekend programmers, it won't be eith
er.  I can state that since that's me, at home.  But I think out of those three target areas, the two it's missing are ones worth targeting.  My anecdotal impression is that those two areas were, in the nineties and early 2000s, a good original source of Delphi programmers in the community and who promoted Delphi in the professional / business area too.

Cheers,

David
0
David
8/11/2011 1:28:21 AM
> {quote:title=Nick Hodges wrote:}{quote}

> Times change.  The days of the $49 compiler changing the world are
> long, long gone.

Yes.

Now is up to $ 99 (http://developer.apple.com/devcenter/ios), and they give back US 2 Billon to their developers, rich & poors (http://gigaom.com/apple/ios-users-buy-more-apps-and-pay-more-for-them/).
0
Mario
8/11/2011 2:22:44 AM
Michael Thuma wrote:

> This is observable ... 
> ...

Unable to parse the rest of your message.
Could you please rephrase?


Kind regards,
D.
0
Don
8/11/2011 8:49:30 AM
Hi,

"David Millington" wrote in message news:386608@forums.embarcadero.com...

> On the other hand, Turbo Pascal in 1985 had, for its time, a 
> fully-featured
> debugger, IDE, etc, and it was an amazing program by all accounts.

That is not entirely correct, the debugger was only added in version 5, 
which was many years later.

Regards, Matt
0
Matt
8/11/2011 9:25:43 AM
Matt Claessen wrote:

> That is not entirely correct, the debugger was only added in version
> 5, which was many years later.

Yeah, 4 was when it started getting really good, when they introduced
units and exe files.

-- 
Andy Syms
Technosoft Systems Ltd

"When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one 
 I've never tried before." -- Mae West (1892-1980)
0
Andy
8/11/2011 11:28:43 AM
This is observable ... 

removed

Mike

> {quote:title=Mason Wheeler wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=Nick Hodges wrote:}{quote}
> > Times change.  The days of the $49 compiler changing the world are
> > long, long gone.
> 
> Well, they are if people hold to that attitude...

--
Oxygene Bunny Michael

Edited by: Michael Thuma on Aug 11, 2011 6:33 AM
0
Michael
8/11/2011 1:33:34 PM
On 2011-08-10 18:32:18 +0000, Michael Thuma said:

> Who knows ...
> 
> If you look at the picture of the DavidI blog ... A victory sign,


i think it was MEANT to be a peace sign, not a victory sign. thats the 
fun thing about different cultures - signs mean different things, and 
can be misunderstood.
0
marc
8/11/2011 1:38:28 PM
So Again! Sorry for inconvenience.

You get MSDN + Technet for an almost unlimited number of seats at 3500 EUR ... otherwise also MS would have problems to sell VS ... also in Mid-Europe.

My observation was .. the amount spent for the first purchase of tools ends at the price of a car - for all seats together, beyond a vendor must provide convincing arguments to the owner of a company. This is a barrier ... the most expensive thing, the just normal human buys is a car. Irrational but ...

Only those people pay for convenience, who spend their employers money.

Developers simply don't pay for tools (when they have to purchase for their own needs), it is not their fault that platforms grow and grow ... (independent if Delphi, MSDN, ...). They don't earn more, so why pay... especially because their knowledge on the platform makes the vendors sales. So I can imagine that people don't want to pay a lot for tools anymore... (on USD 59,-- or a comparable price)

MS world always found idiots who pay for being part of a beta in the past. The last who still do believe in this are EMB. (XE special)

I think IDEs will become freeware and developers will get the whole products for (almost) free. It has never been a lot different.

There are more reasons ... My comment was on the USD 59,-- for Turbo Pascal. Ok maybe USD 200 year people are willing to invest ... this I can imagine for a working Delphi that's ok also if they are hobbyists. I think what is missing is still an offer for software development companies and teams from 3 to 10 developers, assuming Delphi works.

In this point I don't agree with Nick. Also if Delphi or VS allow to face more complexity, for the developer it makes no difference. I doubt that many people will be thankful. Complexity simply makes their job more cumbersome and not their day. So the tool is here to compensate the increased effort and being part of the platform it will have to be almost free. I think especially this is one hard nut to crack, anyway.

This is not my opinion, but observed often.

Greetings
Mike


> {quote:title=Don Delegate wrote:}{quote}
> Michael Thuma wrote:
> 
> > This is observable ... 
> > ...
> 
> Unable to parse the rest of your message.
> Could you please rephrase?
> 
> 
> Kind regards,
> D.

--
Oxygene Bunny Michael

Edited by: Michael Thuma on Aug 11, 2011 6:37 AM

Edited by: Michael Thuma on Aug 11, 2011 6:44 AM
0
Michael
8/11/2011 1:58:37 PM
Thank you!

 I also was assuming DavidI meant 'peace'.

This confused me for a long time. My believe was - the V sign stood for - 'We take down the Nixon administration'. - Thank you. Did not know this.

Greetings
Mike

Edited by: Michael Thuma on Aug 11, 2011 7:11 AM

Edited by: Michael Thuma on Aug 11, 2011 7:13 AM
0
Michael
8/11/2011 2:13:44 PM
"David Millington" wrote in message news:386608@forums.embarcadero.com...
>
> On the other hand, Turbo Pascal in 1985 had, for its time, a 
> fully-featured debugger

"Full-featured" compared to what? Are you saying it could do everything or 
more than the debugger in the Delphi Starter edition can do? Seriously?

> In 2011, Delphi Starter is an equivalent price, but has a 
> non-fully-functional debugger,

Again compared to what? Only to *higher* editions of Delphi. From the point 
of view of someone that has not used higher Delphi editions, it is still a 
very highly functional debugger!

>doesn't include the VCL source,

Delphi 1 personal edition did not include VCL source either, it had to be 
purchased separately. I consider that perfectly reasonable.

> It's less functional than the full program, and it's less functional in 
> ways that get in the way of usefully using it.

That's looking at it from the wrong end. This edition has a lot of 
functionality and features; higher Delphi editions have *additional* 
functions and features that add to the product's usefulness and 
productivity. Isn't that kind of the point of having *higher* or *premium* 
editions of a product?

> Perhaps the best question is, what is the product supposed to do?  Get new 
> programmers using Delphi?  If they've never programmed before, maybe this 
> will help.  If they have, ever, in any language, it won't.

I disagree. It is only those used to having those features in higher 
editions of Delphi that are going to explicitly miss those features. Someone 
new to Dephi is going to be spending a lot of time learning all the features 
that *are* there. Certainly they will compare to other products, like VS, 
and will notice that *both* products have some features or functionality 
that the other does not have - but that clearly cuts in both directions; it 
is not the case that it is only Delphi that comes out looking "deficient", 
but only different.

> And if it's supposed to be great for the hobbyists, the casual weekend 
> programmers, it won't be either

On what basis? That they can't get all the features of Pro for the price of 
the Starter edition? Agan that's looking at it from the wrong end. Clearly 
even on their own terms it has to be acceptable for higher editions to have 
more functionality.

The only thing really being argued here is what *particular* features in 
higher editions are not present in the Starter edition, but asking 100 
people on this forum which features would be "reasonable" to reserve to the 
Pro edition but not the starter edition, you will get 100 *different* 
answers. There is no "perfect" solution to that argument.

But someone had to make decisions on that - there *has to be* some 
reasonable differences, and the goal of those differences *has to be* an 
attempt to find a balance between promoting Delphi at an entry-level price 
without significantly hurting sales of the Pro edition. That is something 
EMBT (and Borland before them) have agonized over repeatedly for years and 
were constantly criticized for not having an appropriate product and for 
seeming to drag their feet on providing something. They finally came up with 
something that hopefully works - but *of course* it is going to seem like a 
"lesser" product to those of us using higher editions - but that is a 
patently invalid position to judge it from.

Quite simply if you want all the functionality of a Pro edition or higher, 
then you need to buy that edition, not demand that a lower edition be 
equivalent to Pro.

-- 
Wayne Niddery (TeamB)
HEALTH TIP: If you can't afford a doctor, go to an airport - you'll get a 
free x-ray and a breast exam and; if you mention Al Qaeda you'll get a free 
colonoscopy.
0
Wayne
8/11/2011 3:23:16 PM
> {quote:title=Wayne Niddery wrote:}{quote}
> Delphi 1 personal edition did not include VCL source either, it had to be 
> purchased separately. I consider that perfectly reasonable.
..
I'm pretty sure there never was a Personal Edition until Delphi 6.  Do you mean Delphi 1 Standard?  Yes, the Standard and Personal Editions never did include VCL source.

What do you mean by "purchased separately?"  Are you saying Delphi 1 Standard customers could also buy the VCL Source "a la carte" as a separate item?  Or do you mean they could have bought a more expensive edition just to get the source?
--
Rick Carter
Cincinnati, OH
0
Rick
8/11/2011 4:25:29 PM
Wayne N.

More simple ...
http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/products/office/pages/office_2010_starter.aspx

That's all. Imho. Maybe shrinking violet EMB also tried to raise the hand, 'Mrs. Teacher I also know something'. This fits a lot more to EMB/CGs behavioral patterns than seeking honestly for a entry level version. Nick, and I believe him in this point, said they would never have found a way to benefit from a free version and honestly a non-free version of something similar to the Turbos makes no sense.

I agree with you anyway. It makes no sense to look at the Starter from a 'I already know Delphi and just want to have it cheaper perspective'. Delphi was never cheap, will never be cheap and hopefully it works. I am/was happy with XE, but surprised about the Starter. The message when all were waiting for the 64bit preview ... 'We have other priorities'. 

Mike


> {quote:title=Wayne Niddery wrote:}{quote}
0
Michael
8/11/2011 4:48:31 PM
"Rick Carter" wrote in message news:386910@forums.embarcadero.com...
> .
> I'm pretty sure there never was a Personal Edition until Delphi 6.  Do you 
> mean Delphi 1 Standard?  Yes, the Standard and Personal Editions never did 
> include VCL source.

Yes, "standard" edition at that time.

> What do you mean by "purchased separately?"  Are you saying Delphi 1 
> Standard customers could also buy the VCL Source "a la carte" as a 
> separate item?  Or do you mean they could have bought a more expensive 
> edition just to get the source?

I recall there was an optional "<something>-Pack" that included the VCL 
source and a few other items in it for Delphi "1". Memory is a bit fuzzy 
because I never had that edition, I went straight to the Client-Server 
edition.


-- 
Wayne Niddery (TeamB)
HEALTH TIP: If you can't afford a doctor, go to an airport - you'll get a 
free x-ray and a breast exam and; if you mention Al Qaeda you'll get a free 
colonoscopy.
0
Wayne
8/11/2011 4:52:11 PM
>I recall there was an optional "<something>-Pack" that included the VCL
source and a few other items in it for Delphi "1"
The Ressource Editor:). This was not available at Borland Germany ... short before D2 it was available form the US store.

This is the only thing I can remember.

But later ... BDE SQL Links have been available separately and sometimes it was possible to download with a product built on Delphi ... or Datasnap at a reduced but affordable price.

Mike
0
Michael
8/11/2011 5:18:04 PM
Rick Carter wrote:

> Yes, the Standard and Personal Editions never did include VCL source.

I don't believe that is the case.

-- 
Nick Hodges -- Product Development Manager
Gateway Ticketing Systems
http://www.gatewayticketing.com
0
Nick
8/11/2011 6:23:49 PM
The Datasnap installed the sources required, afik. 

Mike
0
Michael
8/11/2011 6:26:08 PM
> {quote:title=Wayne Niddery wrote:}{quote}
> "David Millington" wrote in message news:386608@forums.embarcadero.com...
> >
> > On the other hand, Turbo Pascal in 1985 had, for its time, a 
> > fully-featured debugger
> 
> "Full-featured" compared to what? Are you saying it could do everything or 
> more than the debugger in the Delphi Starter edition can do? Seriously?

No, no.  "For its time".  It was 1985!

My point (and this addresses everything else you said too) is that Starter has functionality missing.  Yet it is a product that is or should be useful to good coders who can't afford two and a half thousand dollars and are not going to make two and a half thousand dollars using it.  Ie, hobbyists, noncommercial or open source coders, etc.

I think you disagree, and my reading of what you said is that the Pro version is only for people who need all features, which you (erroneously, in my view) equate with having lots of money.  ("On what basis? That they can't get all the features of Pro for the price of the Starter edition? Agan that's looking at it from the wrong end." - well, yes, I think we are looking at it from different viewpoints / sides / ends.)

Instead, my point is that there are people, like me when at home, who are good coders but can't spend that much for a non-professional (non-business, I guess) purpose.  If you're not using Delphi to make money (say you're a hobbyist, or just want to work on open-source code, etc - there are so many ways you can be a useful member of the community without making a cent) then my problem is not paying for Delphi, it's paying a +huge amount+ for Delphi.

If you understood that, and you think that only businesses or rich individuals should be able to use all features, then I don't know what else to say - I suspect we fundamentally disagree.

Cheers,

David
0
David
8/12/2011 1:05:14 AM
Michael Justin wrote:

> Am 09.08.2011 23:09, Tony Caduto wrote:
> >> {quote:title=Tony Caduto wrote:}{quote}
> >> http://delphihaters.blogspot.com/
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > I particularly enjoyed this fine entry:
> > 
> > "David I's article want more peace reminded me of the 1960's - when
> > the Roosevelt administration authorized the dropping of the Atomic
> > Bomb."
> > 
> > Roosevelt was long dead in the 60s, and it was Truman who
> > authorised dropping it.........
> 
> First hit in Google for "roosevelt administration atomic bomb":
> 
> "The Roosevelt administration defined the bomb as a legitimate
> weapon, assumed that it would be used against the enemy, and knew by
> 1944 that the likely target was Japan, not Germany"

And the bomb was dropped in the 1960s? 


-- 
Rudy Velthuis

"You shall find out how salt is the taste of another man's
 bread, and how hard is the way up and down another man's
 stairs."
 -- Dante
0
Rudy
8/12/2011 1:06:31 AM
David Millington wrote:

> My point (and this addresses everything else you said too) is that
> Starter has functionality missing. 

Of course! Compared to Architect, Professional also has "funtionality
missing". But Pro also lacks the price tag of Architect, and Starter
lacks the price tag of Professional. What is so hard to understand, or
so weird about that?

-- 
Rudy Velthuis

"Nothing except a battle lost can be half as melancholy as a
 battle won."
 -- Duke of Wellington
0
Rudy
8/12/2011 2:08:32 AM
> {quote:title=Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:}{quote}
> Of course! Compared to Architect, Professional also has "funtionality
> missing". But Pro also lacks the price tag of Architect, and Starter
> lacks the price tag of Professional. What is so hard to understand, or
> so weird about that?

The next word after the bit you quoted was "Yet", and the paragraphs after it answered that question.

It's not odd that Starter costs less than Professional... of course you charge less for a less functional product.  You're misunderstanding my point.  It's that as it is, it's annoying and not well targeted and doesn't help some people and... all the stuff I said far better in my past posts.  I am just going to end up repeating myself less eloquently :/

Maybe we just fundamentally disagree.  You think (?) that if you want all the features, you pay $2600 and buy Pro.  I think that's fine in some cases, but it would be good to have a noncommercial / hobbyist version that's just as useful.  A restriction that +makes sense+ in that situation is to restrict what you can do with the end product, your program, not what's in RAD Studio itself.

The logic being that if you make money with Delphi, pay lots for Delphi (that's fair enough, too!); if you don't make money, are noncommercial, open source and nonprofit etc, then don't pay (as) much.  There's no point dumbing down the product itself though, that just gets in people's way and obviously, visibly, as shown by this thread, makes people dislike it.

Cheers,

David
0
David
8/12/2011 3:50:10 AM
David Millington wrote:

> makes people dislike it.

I think that "makes *some* people dislike it" is a better way to put it.

And the reason that many of those some dislike it is because it's not
the tool for them.  It's a tool for starters.  It's telling that it
seems to me that the people who don't like it are the same people
trying to use it instead of paying for the Pro.

I spent *a lot* of time trying to figure out how to produce a version
like the Starter version, and believe me, it is not at all easy.  It is
very hard.  It is very hard to find a solution that does what it needs
to do in the marketplace without ruining the business (see the last
sentence of the previous paragraph).

I give full marks to the team for the Starter version.  It's an
ingenious way of approaching it.

-- 
Nick Hodges -- Product Development Manager
Gateway Ticketing Systems
http://www.gatewayticketing.com
0
Nick
8/12/2011 4:11:02 AM
"David Millington" wrote in message news:387140@forums.embarcadero.com...
>
> My point (and this addresses everything else you said too) is that Starter 
> has functionality missing.

Again only from the point of view of someone having used such features in 
higher editions. Starter is not *missing* features, the higher editions have 
*more* features. The fact that the Starter edition came out after Pro was 
already out is irrelevant - if Starter edition had been released first with 
the exact set of features, and Pro came out at a later date with all the 
additional features you are now used to, would you still claim Starter was 
"missing" them?

>Yet it is a product that is or should be useful to good coders who can't 
>afford two and a half thousand dollars and are not going to make two and a 
>half thousand dollars using it.  Ie, hobbyists, noncommercial or open 
>source coders, etc.

Hmm, by that logic, Ferraris shold be affordable to good drivers. But unless 
I win big in a lottery I'm never going to have one.

> Instead, my point is that there are people, like me when at home, who are 
> good coders but can't spend that much for a non-professional 
> (non-business, I guess) purpose.  If you're not using Delphi to make money 
> (say you're a hobbyist, or just want to work on open-source code, etc - 
> there are so many ways you can be a useful member of the community without 
> making a cent) then my problem is not paying for Delphi, it's paying a 
> +huge amount+ for Delphi.

Which is exactly one of the purposes of the Starter edition, but you are 
insisting that Starter should have all the same features as Pro but at the 
lower Starter proce. So then what happens to Pro?

> If you understood that, and you think that only businesses or rich 
> individuals should be able to use all features, then I don't know what 
> else to say - I suspect we fundamentally disagree.

Any product that offers different price points is, by definition, catering 
to different people and, by nature, higher price points are going to be 
considered unafforadable by some. That is a simple fact of reality. Delphi 
comes in different editions each with a different price point. Obviously 
there has to be differences in *features* - what else is going to justify 
different prices?

So let's cut to the chase - **what features do *you* think the current 
Starter edition, at the price it is being offered at, can reasonably go 
without in order to distinguish it sufficiently from the Pro edition??** It 
is imperative that there be enough difference so that sales of the Pro 
version at its price point are not signifcantly damaged; and that can *only* 
be done by having a number of differences in features.


-- 
Wayne Niddery (TeamB)
HEALTH TIP: If you can't afford a doctor, go to an airport - you'll get a 
free x-ray and a breast exam and; if you mention Al Qaeda you'll get a free 
colonoscopy.
0
Wayne
8/12/2011 4:13:30 AM
David Millington wrote:

> Maybe we just fundamentally disagree.  You think (?) that if you want
> all the features, you pay $2600 and buy Pro.  I think that's fine in
> some cases, but it would be good to have a noncommercial / hobbyist
> version that's just as useful.

Not for Embarcadero. And Delphi Pro is $899, not $2600. If I'd want all
the features, I'd have to buy Architect.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis

"Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft... and 
 the only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor."
 -- Wernher von Braun
0
Rudy
8/12/2011 6:12:55 AM
> seems to me that the people who don't like it are the same people
> trying to use it instead of paying for the Pro.
That's the point:)

Delphi is too expensive if the assumption is that it should be a product for the 'masses' again. This is not the aim, I think. Honestly I personally do nothing different. A fistful of well paying customers is a lot more easy to manage than a horde of complaining about everything because they simply want to have things cheaper... they would complain anyway.

The question in general is - what benefit would a developer have if starting with Delphi. There is simply none at the moment. So the Starter fairly makes sense. The lot shorter way will be, use FPC/Lazarus for getting to know 'Delphi' good enough and beyond - the Starter also does not help.

If someone is not in the position upgrade Delphi Prof. - 'Gardening is a nice hobby'.

Mike

> {quote:title=Nick Hodges wrote:}{quote}
> David Millington wrote:
> 
> > makes people dislike it.
> 
> I think that "makes *some* people dislike it" is a better way to put it.
> 
> And the reason that many of those some dislike it is because it's not
> the tool for them.  It's a tool for starters.  It's telling that it
> seems to me that the people who don't like it are the same people
> trying to use it instead of paying for the Pro.
> 
> I spent *a lot* of time trying to figure out how to produce a version
> like the Starter version, and believe me, it is not at all easy.  It is
> very hard.  It is very hard to find a solution that does what it needs
> to do in the marketplace without ruining the business (see the last
> sentence of the previous paragraph).
> 
> I give full marks to the team for the Starter version.  It's an
> ingenious way of approaching it.
> 
> -- 
> Nick Hodges -- Product Development Manager
> Gateway Ticketing Systems
> http://www.gatewayticketing.com

--
Oxygene Bunny Michael
0
Michael
8/12/2011 8:04:40 AM
Michael Thuma wrote:

> > seems to me that the people who don't like it are the same people
> > trying to use it instead of paying for the Pro.
> That's the point:)
> 
> Delphi is too expensive if the assumption is that it should be a
> product for the 'masses' again.

Pro is for professionals, Starter is for, well, starters. <g>

-- 
Rudy Velthuis

"As the poet said, 'Only God can make a tree,' probably because 
 it's so hard to figure out how to get the bark on." 
 -- Woody Allen.
0
Rudy
8/12/2011 2:00:50 PM
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

> And the bomb was dropped in the 1960s? 

Eh?  What bomb?

-- 
SteveT
0
Steve
8/12/2011 3:56:56 PM
Wayne Niddery wrote:

> Obviously  there has to be differences in *features* - what else 
> is going to justify  different prices?

Licensing rights, obviously.

-- 
SteveT
0
Steve
8/12/2011 3:59:42 PM
"Steve Thackery" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message 
news:387514@forums.embarcadero.com...
> Wayne Niddery wrote:
>
>> Obviously  there has to be differences in *features* - what else
>> is going to justify  different prices?
>
> Licensing rights, obviously.


Certainly that also has to be part of the mix, but *unfortunately* there are 
too many out there that are perfectly willing to disregard licensing 
agreements. If that is the *only* protection EMBC provides itself, they will 
lose a ton. The Starter edition, with all the "missing" features some are 
complaining of *still* also needs those license restrictions in order to 
help protect the Pro edition.

-- 
Wayne Niddery (TeamB)
HEALTH TIP: If you can't afford a doctor, go to an airport - you'll get a 
free x-ray and a breast exam and; if you mention Al Qaeda you'll get a free 
colonoscopy.
0
Wayne
8/12/2011 4:24:51 PM
Specialized tools are specialized tools. What shall we do. :) EMB is not a company that sells USD 50 compilers to everyone ...  if they would want to, they would do :)

The argument Delphi starter is for hobby or educating of the first steps. I would not have advised people to start learning Pascal with Laz 0.9.26 but 0.9.30 is an alternative. If someone wants to start, why not. I personally go beyond what the Starter is capable of very seldom (only 2 points are missing). But someone who does not know Delphi will not miss. The Starter Edition should leave room for a customer happiness when taking Delphi Prof ... just the source code will not make people happy.

We can talk about giving away Delphi for free and people bring fruits to the developers so that they have at least something to eat. I think this is not what we would want in our case that our customers would do to us.

Mike

> {quote:title=Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:}{quote}
> Pro is for professionals, Starter is for, well, starters. <g>
0
Michael
8/12/2011 4:29:44 PM
Steve Thackery wrote:

> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> 
> > And the bomb was dropped in the 1960s? 
> 
> Eh?  What bomb?

The one that was authorized to be dropped in 1960. AFAIK, the bomb was
dropped in 1945.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis

"In order to avoid being called a flirt, she always yielded 
 easily." -- Charles, Count Talleyrand
0
Rudy
8/12/2011 10:44:06 PM
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

> The one that was authorized to be dropped in 1960.

What are you talking about?

-- 
Nick Hodges -- Product Development Manager
Gateway Ticketing Systems
http://www.gatewayticketing.com
0
Nick
8/12/2011 11:57:54 PM
Nick Hodges wrote:

> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> 
> > The one that was authorized to be dropped in 1960.
> 
> What are you talking about?

https://forums.embarcadero.com/message.jspa?messageID=377959#377959

It was, of course, *not* dropped in 1960.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis

"The instinct of nearly all societies is to lock up anybody who 
 is truly free. First, society begins by trying to beat you up. 
 If this fails, they try to poison you. If this fails too, the 
 finish by loading honors on your head."
 -- Jean Cocteau (1889-1963)
0
Rudy
8/13/2011 12:19:15 AM
> {quote:title=Mason Wheeler wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=Tony Caduto wrote:}{quote}
> > http://delphihaters.blogspot.com/
> > 
> > There are some complete bull crap posts there, anyone know who is behind it?
> > 
> > Just wondering as it popped up when I was doing a search for 64bit delphi and Firemonkey.
> 
> There's a document out there called the "Unix Haters' Handbook" that describes in great and rather bitter detail all sorts of stuff that's wrong with Unix/Linux, both on a technical and on a user experience level.  It's written by people who have a lot of experience using *nix systems and really know what they're talking about, and it's detailed enough that some of their work was actually used as the basis for bug reports in various *nix systems.

(Well, some of the stuff in UGH is contrived. Not all is the same quality, I appreciated them more because of their humor than because of their facts:

" Two of the most famous products of Berkeley are LSD and Unix. I don't think that is a coincidence.” )

> I think Mr. Hater is trying to do something similar for Delphi.  Unfortunately, his skill is somewhat lacking, and what he writes mostly just comes across as trolling.  It can be entertaining to read sometimes, though...

It indeed sounds like some C++ programmer who got some Delphi legacy code dropped on him. Lots of frustration to vent, and not much knowledge
0
Marco
8/15/2011 8:59:49 AM
> {quote:title=Michael Justin wrote:}{quote}
> "The Roosevelt administration defined the bomb as a legitimate weapon, 
> assumed that it would be used against the enemy, and knew by 1944 that 
> the likely target was Japan, not Germany"
> Bulletin of the atomic scientists, December 1975, p. 13

Japan was chosen because the radioactive fallout from dropping it on Germany might have hurt allies. However, the Bush administration seems to think that Iraq is far enough away, that some depleted Uranium fallout won't hurt its allies too much (or perhaps the Bush junta, including his 9th cousin Barack Obama, do not care about allies any more!).
--
Mark Jacobs
www.dkcomputing.co.uk
0
Mark
8/15/2011 11:48:09 AM
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