Does Delphi for iOS come with native iOS UI controls?

According to this link http://www.embarcadero.com/products/delphi/ios-development,
Delphi for iOS comes with "Pixel-perfect native UI controls".

Are those controls the iOS native ones (UILabel, UIText, UISwitch, MKMapView, etc.), 
i.e. the same ones that one sees in XCode InterfaceBuilder?
0
Jacques
1/31/2013 7:02:34 PM
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Le 31/01/13 19:02, Jacques Gonzalez a écrit :

> According to this link http://www.embarcadero.com/products/delphi/ios-development,
> Delphi for iOS comes with "Pixel-perfect native UI controls".
>
> Are those controls the iOS native ones (UILabel, UIText, UISwitch, MKMapView, etc.),
> i.e. the same ones that one sees in XCode InterfaceBuilder?

I think, if they were truly real Cocoa controls, they wouldn't need to 
use the wording "Pixel-perfect" :-)

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [Team OOAD]
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Joanna
1/31/2013 7:57:03 PM
Joanna Carter (Team OOAD) wrote:
> I think, if they were truly real Cocoa controls, they wouldn't need
> to use the wording "Pixel-perfect" :-)

Not that I care, but if they weren't truly real, would they use "native
UI controls?"
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Dominique
1/31/2013 10:00:04 PM
Le 31/01/13 22:00, Dominique Willems a écrit :

> Not that I care, but if they weren't truly real, would they use "native
> UI controls?"

Well, if the "imitations" use native drawing routines, that is more than 
likely what they are alluding to.

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [Team OOAD]
0
Joanna
1/31/2013 10:32:43 PM
> > Not that I care, but if they weren't truly real, would they use "native
> > UI controls?"
> 
> Well, if the "imitations" use native drawing routines, that is more than 
> likely what they are alluding to.

Wild speculation based purely on what has already been shipped (*): for a few things, native widgets are used, otherwise hard-coded custom styling that looks quite like the 'native' styling (for the time) is employed.

(*) In XE3/Win and XE3/OS X, ShowMessage and MessageDlg invoke native dialog boxes/sheets, along with InputQuery on OS X. There's also a 'picker' API defined, if somewhat rudimentary.
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Chris
1/31/2013 10:43:26 PM
Joanna Carter (Team OOAD) wrote:
> Well, if the "imitations" use native drawing routines, that is more
> than likely what they are alluding to.

Oooh, they're cheeky monkeys, aren't they?
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Dominique
1/31/2013 10:43:28 PM
One gets the iOS UI components "look" but not necessarily the "feel", i.e the behaviour.
If that's the case, I wouldn't call that "native UI controls", which is kind of misleading,
 but rather "native *look* UI controls".
0
Jacques
1/31/2013 11:09:12 PM
> One gets the iOS UI components "look" but not necessarily the "feel", i.e the behaviour.
> If that's the case, I wouldn't call that "native UI controls", which is kind of misleading,
>  but rather "native *look* UI controls".

For sure. My point was just that EMBT have a bit of rhetorical wiggle room if certain UI elements actually are truly native like in the already-shipped FMX for the desktop, though I'd concede the line you quoted is a bit too strong even for that.
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Chris
2/1/2013 5:07:08 AM
> "Pixel-perfect native UI controls".

"Pixel-perfect" as long as the pixels don't change...

Anyway when you start to look at some "weasel words" you should start to get worried as well ;)
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Luigi
2/1/2013 9:51:20 AM
> {quote:title=Luigi Sandon wrote:}{quote}
> > "Pixel-perfect native UI controls".
> 
> "Pixel-perfect" as long as the pixels don't change...
> 
> Anyway when you start to look at some "weasel words" you should start to get worried as well ;)


Ya, I'm getting the feeling that "Delphi for iOS" is really "Delphi FireMonkey for iOS", as in no Delphi for iOS without FireMonkey.

I was just about to buy XE3, but now I'm not so sure. If it is FireMonkey, I won't be continuing Delphi development. 

I think it's stupid that they're keeping the details secret.
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Mike
2/1/2013 11:00:53 AM
Mike Dixon wrote:

> I think it's stupid that they're keeping the details secret.

I'm sure they will reveal the details once they launch the product.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"When encountering a new philosophy or religion, do not
 convert, but rather assimilate."
 -- Shawn Mikula
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Rudy
2/1/2013 11:51:41 AM
Jacques Gonzalez wrote:

> One gets the iOS UI components "look" but not necessarily the "feel",
> i.e the behaviour.

Even "non-native" controls can have the look AND feel of the native
ones, ISTM.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

Bo Diddeley's Observation On The Law: Always take a lawyer with 
you, and bring another lawyer to watch him.
0
Rudy
2/1/2013 11:53:09 AM
Dominique,

>> I think, if they were truly real Cocoa controls, they wouldn't need
>> to use the wording "Pixel-perfect" :-)
> 
> Not that I care, but if they weren't truly real, would they use "native
> UI controls?"

Why would they not, the term "native" is used in a very narrow and 
misleading manner in the context of Delphi, *all* the time.

In Delphiland, native means, "compiled to CPU binary code". Nothing 
else matters, as long as your app is compiled to native machine code 
(doesn't even have to be particularly good or well-optimized machine 
code), it's awesome, and if it is not, it sucks. No matter how crooked 
your UI looks, if it was created with Delphi, it will always be 
"native". That's reassuring, right? ;)
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marc
2/1/2013 12:28:30 PM
Chris,

> Wild speculation based purely on what has already been shipped (*): for 
> a few things, native widgets are used, otherwise hard-coded custom 
> styling that looks quite like the 'native' styling (for the time) is 
> employed.

From all the "pixel perfect" screenshots that have been posted publicly 
so far, it;s very obvious that they are not native controls (nor, for 
that matter, pixel perfect ;).

That of course completely ignoring the fact that, especially on 
mobile/touch platforms, just having the *pixels* perfetc is not 
enought, you also need the timing and the "physics" perfect, as well.
0
marc
2/1/2013 12:30:31 PM
Mike,

> Ya, I'm getting the feeling that "Delphi for iOS" is really "Delphi 
> FireMonkey for iOS", as in no Delphi for iOS without FireMonkey.
> 
> I was just about to buy XE3, but now I'm not so sure. If it is 
> FireMonkey, I won't be continuing Delphi development.

if you don't want FireMonkey, but do want native Object Pascal for iOS 
(and Android, and Windows Phone 8, and …), and 100% native controls, 
give Oxygene a go.

> I think it's stupid that they're keeping the details secret.
0
marc
2/1/2013 12:33:11 PM
marc hoffman wrote:

> Dominique,
> 
> >> I think, if they were truly real Cocoa controls, they wouldn't need
> >> to use the wording "Pixel-perfect" :-)
> > 
> > Not that I care, but if they weren't truly real, would they use
> > "native UI controls?"
> 
> Why would they not, the term "native" is used in a very narrow and 
> misleading manner in the context of Delphi, all the time.
> 
> In Delphiland, native means, "compiled to CPU binary code".

Which is indeed the meaning of native code, not just in Delphiland. It
is not necessarily the meaning of "native controls".
-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"If absolute power corrupts absolutely, where does that leave 
 God?" -- George Deacon.
0
Rudy
2/1/2013 12:33:51 PM
Rudy,

> is not necessarily the meaning of "native controls".

indeed, it is not.

—marc
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marc
2/1/2013 1:07:32 PM
marc hoffman wrote:

> Rudy,
> 
> > is not necessarily the meaning of "native controls".
> 
> indeed, it is not.

I said "not necessarily" for a good reason. If they mean controls that
were written in natively compiled code, it is legit to call them native
controls. Not "native" as in "native to the platform", but native
nevertheless, as in "compiled to machine code".

Sure, if people talk about "native controls" they usually mean
"controls native to the platform, i.e. provided by the OS". But that is
not a necessity.

And I doubt many people - except some true fan(atic)s - will care if a
control is only nearly pixel perfect or really totally pixel perfect.
-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Mother-in-law = A woman who destroys her son-in-law's peace of 
 mind by giving him a piece of hers." -- Anonymous.
0
Rudy
2/1/2013 1:56:18 PM
> {quote:title=Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:}{quote}
> And I doubt many people - except some true fan(atic)s - will care if a
> control is only nearly pixel perfect or really totally pixel perfect.

I'm pretty sure that many people would mind, if Apple changes their interface and a Delphi application is stuck in the old one, while all the others automatically pick ut the new.
0
Graham
2/1/2013 2:19:00 PM
Graham Stratford wrote:

> > {quote:title=Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:}{quote}
> > And I doubt many people - except some true fan(atic)s - will care
> > if a control is only nearly pixel perfect or really totally pixel
> > perfect.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that many people would mind, if Apple changes their
> interface and a Delphi application is stuck in the old one, while all
> the others automatically pick ut the new.

Ok, perhaps then, and that is indeed the risk of only mimicking a
control instead of actually using it. But otherwise?

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"For if he like a madman lived, At least he like a wise one died."
 -- Cervantes.
0
Rudy
2/1/2013 2:28:44 PM
Rudy,

> I said "not necessarily" for a good reason. If they mean controls that
> were written in natively compiled code, it is legit to call them native
> controls.

"legit" in the same way i guess as calling skinned Windows desktop aps 
"Windows 8 apps". In other words, if you want to mislead.
0
marc
2/1/2013 2:33:05 PM
> control instead of actually using it. But otherwise?

Problem arises when controls are near pixel-perfect but their behaviours is not exactly what the user expects and is used to. Especially if the behaviour is different enough to lead the user to make some mistakes.
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Luigi
2/1/2013 2:47:33 PM
> Ya, I'm getting the feeling that "Delphi for iOS" is really "Delphi FireMonkey for iOS", as in no Delphi for iOS without FireMonkey.

Ofcourse not, and it is not a secret. FireMonkey (or maybe better, non VCL Delphi) will be used to create applications based
on the graphical interface FireMonkey (2D and 3D !) In this way they target any OS they want at the GUI level. Now with the new 
ARM compiler they can target iOS in this way. The nice thing is that they can do this trick for all the OS they want to support.
My guess is that you can expect things like, drop a normal TCalendar on a form and when compiling to iOS the system will 
create an iOS looking calendar for you...
0
Robert
2/1/2013 2:52:49 PM
> "legit" in the same way i guess as calling skinned Windows desktop aps 
> "Windows 8 apps". In other words, if you want to mislead.

That's why I talked about "weasel words" - and marketing people are usually good at them. Then there's the meaning developers attach to words. No one believes XE3 can deliver native "Windows 8 apps" - although MS since Metro forbade it to use the "Metro" name for them had only found weasel words to name the new interface - Windows 8 "apps" must run on WinRT to be called "native" - and the you will have native Windows 8 "apps" using native code, and those that don't.

But of course if your application uses native Windows controls it won't need to be skinned to run using the new Win 8 UI style. It it is a Windows 7 "pixel perfect" one, it won't show properly on Windows 8.
0
Luigi
2/1/2013 2:54:45 PM
Luigi Sandon wrote:

> > control instead of actually using it. But otherwise?
> 
> Problem arises when controls are near pixel-perfect but their
> behaviours is not exactly what the user expects and is used to.

Sure. Behaviour should be what people expect from a native control. If
anything changes, it is often the "look", but not so often the "feel".
The look can often be fixed by a new style.

So I am ambivalent about this. I would certainly prefer native
components, and still hope someone wraps the most common ones, but
could live with good emulations. But I am probably a lot pickier than
most users.
-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Never mistake motion for action." 
 -- Ernest Hemingway (1899-1961)
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Rudy
2/1/2013 2:58:18 PM
marc hoffman wrote:

> Rudy,
> 
> > I said "not necessarily" for a good reason. If they mean controls
> > that were written in natively compiled code, it is legit to call
> > them native controls.
> 
> "legit" in the same way i guess as calling skinned Windows desktop
> aps "Windows 8 apps". In other words, if you want to mislead.

If they look like a duck, walk like a duck and quack like a duck, why
not?

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Too many pieces of music finish too long after the end."
 -- Igor Stravinsky (1882-1971)
0
Rudy
2/1/2013 3:00:06 PM
Luigi Sandon wrote:

> > "legit" in the same way i guess as calling skinned Windows desktop
> > aps "Windows 8 apps". In other words, if you want to mislead.
> 
> That's why I talked about "weasel words" - and marketing people are
> usually good at them.

It's a bit like writing Terabyte when you actually mean 10^12 bytes,
and not 2^40 bytes, as is usual in the IT world. In fact, 10^12 is the
correct meaning of "tera", but not what people expect.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"When you start off by telling those who disagree with you that
 they are not merely in error but in sin, how much of a dialogue
 do you expect ?"" -- Thomas Sowell
0
Rudy
2/1/2013 3:03:26 PM
> 
> Ofcourse not, and it is not a secret. FireMonkey (or maybe better, non VCL Delphi) will be used to create applications based
> on the graphical interface FireMonkey (2D and 3D !) In this way they target any OS they want at the GUI level. Now with the new 
> ARM compiler they can target iOS in this way. The nice thing is that they can do this trick for all the OS they want to support.
> My guess is that you can expect things like, drop a normal TCalendar on a form and when compiling to iOS the system will 
> create an iOS looking calendar for you...


Agreed ! :)

You've certainly right : I think too you'll put a calendar on the form, and it will be stylish (with fm2 theme tehnology) to look like the ios one.

So, IMHO, we have not to say
"Pixel-perfect native UI controls" 
but 
"Pixel-perfect native [arm compiled] UI Controls"
:)

If it will be so, I considere Marketing services borderlines in this case.
0
Vincent
2/1/2013 3:28:20 PM
"Rudy Velthuis" wrote on Fri, 1 Feb 2013 07:00:06 -0800:

>> "legit" in the same way i guess as calling skinned Windows desktop
>> aps "Windows 8 apps". In other words, if you want to mislead.
> 
> If they look like a duck, walk like a duck and quack like a duck, why
> not?

Well they certainly don't walk like a duck (if they did, you'd be able
to put them in the metro store without having them shoved into the
nigh-invisible "desktop app" category), and if you're actually using
Windows 8 on a regular basis (and I mean TIFKAM side) you can tell
they don't really look like ducks either.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
0
Brandon
2/1/2013 3:56:54 PM
Rudy,

>>> I said "not necessarily" for a good reason. If they mean controls
>>> that were written in natively compiled code, it is legit to call
>>> them native controls.
>> 
>> "legit" in the same way i guess as calling skinned Windows desktop
>> aps "Windows 8 apps". In other words, if you want to mislead.
> 
> If they look like a duck, walk like a duck and quack like a duck, why
> not?

in other words, if you CAN fool people, why not try? really?
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marc
2/1/2013 4:18:39 PM
At the end everything is drawn on the screen, nobody will see the difference if it is pixel perfect.
And if it is, who cares? Every website looks different and nobody is bothered about that.
Who complained about the "fake" (not native) buttons and controls in Java programs?
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Robert
2/1/2013 4:24:59 PM
> Who complained about the "fake" (not native) buttons and controls in Java programs?

A lot of people do. Non-skinned Java apps look awfully dated.

Eric
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Eric
2/1/2013 4:30:46 PM
> {quote:title=Robert Triest wrote:}{quote}
> At the end everything is drawn on the screen, nobody will see the difference if it is pixel perfect.
> And if it is, who cares? Every website looks different and nobody is bothered about that.
> Who complained about the "fake" (not native) buttons and controls in Java programs?

mmh, native is not only the visual stuff : It is the behaviour too. In this sense, native is *very* important : 
For exemple : 
In iOs, when you typed something, if you stay "mouse down" in Edit control, you'll get a magnifying glass in order to setup properly the caret cursor position :  It is a complicated *native* iOs behaviour - Surely, it will be not in Delphi for iOS - This is a problem for me, if you target an iPhone app for example : And sincerly, re-implement those type of stuff will make me nervous :))

Fortunaly, IOs Native GUI wrapper exists yet. ;)
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Vincent
2/1/2013 4:40:33 PM
I believe the idea behind fire monkey is to Write-Once -> Deploy-Anywhere
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Gilbert
2/1/2013 5:55:26 PM
|At the end everything is drawn on the screen, nobody will see the 
difference if it is pixel perfect.
|And if it is, who cares? Every website looks different and nobody is 
bothered about that.
|Who complained about the "fake" (not native) buttons and controls in Java 
programs?

Another example would be games
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Gilbert
2/1/2013 5:58:34 PM
On 2/1/2013 9:55 AM, Gilbert Padilla wrote:
> I believe the idea behind fire monkey is to Write-Once -> Deploy-Anywhere
>

I thought it was:

(release FireMonkey) write once, wait for updates

(release FireMonkey2) re-write once, wait for updates

David Erbas-White
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David
2/1/2013 6:02:56 PM
> I believe the idea behind fire monkey is to Write-Once -> Deploy-Anywhere
>

|I thought it was:

|(release FireMonkey) write once, wait for updates

|(release FireMonkey2) re-write once, wait for updates

write once, oops!!! where is my TPrinter object? <g>
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Gilbert
2/1/2013 6:15:31 PM
> I believe the idea behind fire monkey is to Write-Once -> Deploy-Anywhere

No, it is write-once -> Bugs-Everywhere.
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Luigi
2/1/2013 7:04:35 PM
Le 01/02/13 15:28, Vincent GSELL a écrit :

> You've certainly right : I think too you'll put a calendar on the
> form, and it will be stylish (with fm2 theme tehnology) to look like
> the ios one.

Well, that would be nothing short of miraculous, as there is no native 
Cocoa calendar component. The only way to get that kind of thing is go 
onto GitHub and find one that you like.

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [Team OOAD]
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Joanna
2/1/2013 7:09:37 PM
Le 01/02/13 16:24, Robert Triest a écrit :

> At the end everything is drawn on the screen, nobody will see the difference if it is pixel perfect.

As Marc commented, it's not just the appearance, it's how the controls 
react to being touched as well (the physics).

> And if it is, who cares? Every website looks different and nobody is bothered about that.
> Who complained about the "fake" (not native) buttons and controls in Java programs?

I complained plenty when I had to use a Java source control program - it 
was truly dire, and that was comparing it to Windows.

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [Team OOAD]
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Joanna
2/1/2013 7:11:45 PM
> Every website looks different and nobody is bothered about that.

I hate web applications exactly for this reason, and lack of a common keyboard interface.

> Who complained about the "fake" (not native) buttons and controls in Java programs?

Most people, and that's why SWT was developed.... and that's the reason why tools like Delphi still survive, and the reason I code my Windows applications in Delphi and not Java.
0
Luigi
2/1/2013 7:13:02 PM
Le 01/02/13 16:40, Vincent GSELL a écrit :

> For exemple : In iOs, when you typed something, if you stay "mouse
> down" in Edit control, you'll get a magnifying glass in order to
> setup properly the caret cursor position :  It is a complicated
> *native* iOs behaviour - Surely, it will be not in Delphi for iOS -
> This is a problem for me, if you target an iPhone app for example :
> And sincerly, re-implement those type of stuff will make me nervous
> :))

Not just that, tapping in a UITextField automatically raises the 
keyboard, but there is also an option for enhancing the standard 
keyboard or hiding it completely in favour of your own custom popover 
keypad on the larger iPad.

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [Team OOAD]
0
Joanna
2/1/2013 7:15:49 PM
Robert Triest wrote:

> At the end everything is drawn on the screen, nobody will see the
> difference if it is pixel perfect.  And if it is, who cares? Every
> website looks different and nobody is bothered about that.  Who
> complained about the "fake" (not native) buttons and controls in Java
> programs?

Java programs tended to be slow and feel weird, and they did look
rather weird. So people did complain.

But otherwise I mostly agree with you.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"We all agree that your theory is crazy, but is it crazy enough?"
 -- Niels Bohr (1885-1962)
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Rudy
2/1/2013 7:25:21 PM
Vincent GSELL wrote:

> > {quote:title=Robert Triest wrote:}{quote}
> > At the end everything is drawn on the screen, nobody will see the
> > difference if it is pixel perfect.  And if it is, who cares? Every
> > website looks different and nobody is bothered about that.  Who
> > complained about the "fake" (not native) buttons and controls in
> > Java programs?
> 
> mmh, native is not only the visual stuff : It is the behaviour too.

How hard is it to get the behaviour of a push button or edit field or
checkbox right? I don't think that the "feel" of most controls is hard
to get right.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Without requirements or design, programming is the art of
 adding bugs to an empty text file." -- Louis Srygley
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Rudy
2/1/2013 7:27:29 PM
Joanna Carter (Team OOAD) wrote:

> Le 01/02/13 16:24, Robert Triest a écrit :
> 
> > At the end everything is drawn on the screen, nobody will see the
> > difference if it is pixel perfect.
> 
> As Marc commented, it's not just the appearance, it's how the
> controls react to being touched as well (the physics).

Well what with that? If they can manage to get the appearance right,
why shouldn't they be able to manage to get the behaviour right, too?
It is not rocket science, for Pete's sake.

Controls tend to change their appearance more often than they tend to
change their behaviour, IME.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Every day I get up and look through the Forbes list of the 
 richest people in America. If I'm not there, I go to work."
 -- Robert Orben
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Rudy
2/1/2013 7:30:47 PM
On 2/1/2013 1:27 PM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> How hard is it to get the behaviour of a push button or edit field or
> checkbox right? I don't think that the "feel" of most controls is hard
> to get right.

If FireMonkey is any indication, much harder than you'd think.  Edits
need to handle both right-to-left and left-to-right languages and IMEs,
and can't have fuzzy text.  On OS X they also have a built-in spell
checker, extra behavior when pasting (Intelligent Copy & Paste).  On iOS
there's the previously mentioned keyboard handling and hover
magnification, and of course on Android the selection/caret behavior is
different.

Even "trivial" things like page controls can work differently;  Windows
switches tabs on mouse down and OS X switches on mouse up.  Just because
you're willing to accept substandard behavior as "good enough" doesn't
mean our customers will.

-- 
Craig Peterson
Scooter Software
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Craig
2/1/2013 7:38:07 PM
Craig Peterson wrote:

> On 2/1/2013 1:27 PM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> > How hard is it to get the behaviour of a push button or edit field
> > or checkbox right? I don't think that the "feel" of most controls
> > is hard to get right.
> 
> If FireMonkey is any indication, much harder than you'd think.

<cut some failings of FireMonkey>

I did not specifically mean FireMonkey, I meant mimicking in general.
That FMX is not perfect does not mean it is not possible. And it is
well possible that a framework behaves differently on different
platforms.
-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Nothing brings people together more, than mutual hatred."
 -- Henry Rollins
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Rudy
2/1/2013 7:51:35 PM
On 2/1/2013 1:51 PM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> <cut some failings of FireMonkey>
> 
> I did not specifically mean FireMonkey, I meant mimicking in general.

Fine, name *one* framework that does it well.  Qt used to and then
switched to native controls.  Time will tell if their switch back works
any better.  Java used to but AWT and Swing were both lousy, which is
why SWT was introduced.

Besides, those aren't just failings of FireMonkey, they're issues that
any decent cross-platform framework needs to contend with, and that was
just one control.

-- 
Craig Peterson
Scooter Software
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Craig
2/1/2013 8:36:38 PM
"Robert Triest" wrote on Fri, 1 Feb 2013 08:24:59 -0800:

> At the end everything is drawn on the screen, nobody will see the difference if it is pixel perfect.
> And if it is, who cares? Every website looks different and nobody is bothered about that.
> Who complained about the "fake" (not native) buttons and controls in Java programs?

I don't actually care if the controls are actual OS-driven components.
What I do care about is if they look *AND BEHAVE* like them.

One reason I could never get into using TMS visual controls is because
you can't just throw glare, shine, and gradient on a panel and call it
an "office like control."  Maybe the designers don't have an eye for
the design behind what they are trying to imitate, but I do, and it
was never suitable for me.

On mobile, where good UI experience requires very precise response to
interaction, I will have to see it to believe it.  They may actually
pull this off with Android or iOS, which have pretty dated UIs now
that Windows 8 Metro has raised the bar for touch, but you can't get
around the fact that not using OS controls means being a step behind
the OS when changes are made, and trusting that FMX will be updated.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
0
Brandon
2/1/2013 8:46:59 PM
>>> {quote:title=Robert Triest wrote:}{quote}
>>> At the end everything is drawn on the screen, nobody will see the
>>> difference if it is pixel perfect.  And if it is, who cares? Every
>>> website looks different and nobody is bothered about that.  Who
>>> complained about the "fake" (not native) buttons and controls in
>>> Java programs?
>> 
>> mmh, native is not only the visual stuff : It is the behaviour too.
> 
> How hard is it to get the behaviour of a push button or edit field or
> checkbox right? I don't think that the "feel" of most controls is hard
> to get right.

you never fail to amaze me, Rudy. Don't ever change.
0
marc
2/1/2013 8:56:57 PM
> Even "trivial" things like page controls can work differently;  Windows
> switches tabs on mouse down and OS X switches on mouse up.

I didn't realise that, but yes, you're right. But then, I tried Firefox, and there, this 'standard' behaviour only works for the (native) Preferences tabs, not the tabs in the main window. Ah, but Firefox uses its own cross platform UI framework (shiver!) - surely Safari will do the 'right' thing? So, I fire up Safari, and... get the same behaviour as FireFox!

> Just because
> you're willing to accept substandard behavior as "good enough" doesn't
> mean our customers will.

It is IMO unreasonable to think FMX could provide a perfect replica, which is not to say it shouldn't be doing better than it is in XE3. Conversely, if you are implying a cross platform application should rigidly adhere to the conventions of the platform it is presently running on, I disagree with that too. E.g., on initial appearances, Word 2011 looks a Mac application. Dig a bit deeper however, and all the old WinWord dialogs are there. Do I care? Hardly - the fact Word 2011 works substantially like Win
Word 6 (indeed, substantially more than Word 2007/2010/2013 given the menu bar!) is completely in its favour for me, a long term user of WinWord.
0
Chris
2/1/2013 9:38:01 PM
David Erbas-White wrote:

> I thought it was:
> 
> (release FireMonkey) write once, wait for updates
> 
> (release FireMonkey2) re-write once, wait for updates

More like write once, discard, move on...  :-(

-- 
Cheers,
Van

"Half of what I say is meaningless..." - John Lennon
"Your job is to figure out which half." - Van Swofford
0
Van
2/1/2013 9:42:16 PM
> Even "non-native" controls can have the look AND feel of the native
> ones, ISTM.

In theory yes, but in practice no.

My original question wasn't about what "non-native" controls can or cannot,
but whether the controls in Delphi for iOS are the native iOS controls.
0
Jacques
2/1/2013 9:44:54 PM
> Fine, name *one* framework that does it well.  Qt used to and then
> switched to native controls.  Time will tell if their switch back works
> any better.  Java used to but AWT and Swing were both lousy, which is
> why SWT was introduced.

+1 Craig.

And even SWT comes with is own lot of problems.
I won't call it a go example of native UI integration.
0
Jacques
2/1/2013 9:50:21 PM
marc hoffman wrote:

> you never fail to amaze me, Rudy. Don't ever change.

I disagree.  Please, Rudy, change.  

Those of us who know you might find you amusing in a teeth-clenching
kinda way, but what will a newcomer to this forum/group think?  I hate
to imagine.


-- 
SteveT
0
Steve
2/1/2013 9:54:23 PM
> How hard is it to get the behaviour of a push button or edit field or
> checkbox right? I don't think that the "feel" of most controls is hard
> to get right.

Extremely hard if you don't have the specs, which is the case. 
And even if you could get it right for a particular version of iOS, 
it doesn't guarantee you have it for the next one.

See the problem?
0
Jacques
2/1/2013 10:19:35 PM
> but you can't get
> around the fact that not using OS controls means being a step behind
> the OS when changes are made, and trusting that FMX will be updated.

+1 Spot on.
0
Jacques
2/1/2013 10:24:00 PM
On 2/1/2013 3:38 PM, Chris Rolliston wrote:
> I didn't realise that, but yes, you're right. But then, I tried Firefox, and there, this 'standard' behaviour only works for the (native) Preferences tabs, not the tabs in the main window. Ah, but Firefox uses its own cross platform UI framework (shiver!) - surely Safari will do the 'right' thing? So, I fire up Safari, and... get the same behaviour as FireFox!

Honestly, I wouldn't have even noticed this one, but FireMonkey 1
switches on mouse up and I thought it was just being incredibly sluggish.

> It is IMO unreasonable to think FMX could provide a perfect replica, which is not to say it shouldn't be doing better than it is in XE3.

I don't think it has to be perfect either.  I actually like FireFox on
Windows, OS X, and Linux, and the fact that they have their own widgets
has never bothered me.

FireMonkey has to do a damned sight better than it is though, and the
fact that they have to rewrite everything from scratch and then I get to
worry about 3D driver incompatibilities doesn't make me inclined to like
what they're doing.  I'm a lost cause anyway;  we switched to Lazarus
for OS X, and the rumors about Delphi's next gen compiler make me think
we'll be re-evaluating our entire technology stack if we ever decide
that's not good enough.  That we had to switch to Lazarus because of
Borland/Embarcadero's foot dragging and FireMonkey's poor quality makes
me even less likely to be charitable to them.

-- 
Craig Peterson
Scooter Software
0
Craig
2/1/2013 10:29:28 PM
> I'm pretty sure that many people would mind, if Apple changes their interface and a Delphi application is stuck in the old one, while all the others automatically pick ut the new.

+1 Helpful comment indicating where the limitations of the "I mimik" strategy might end up.
0
Jacques
2/1/2013 10:33:45 PM
> I'm pretty sure that many people would mind, if Apple changes their 
> interface and a Delphi application is stuck in the old one, while all the 
> others automatically pick ut the new.

|+1 Helpful comment indicating where the limitations of the "I mimik" 
strategy might end up.

When MS replaced the classic menu with the ribbon style the old code wasn't 
enough to display a Ribbon menu. A simple recompile didn't do the trick.
0
Gilbert
2/1/2013 11:27:45 PM
> I don't think it has to be perfect either.  I actually like FireFox on
> Windows, OS X, and Linux, and the fact that they have their own widgets
> has never bothered me.
> 
> FireMonkey has to do a damned sight better than it is though, and the
> fact that they have to rewrite everything from scratch and then I get to
> worry about 3D driver incompatibilities doesn't make me inclined to like
> what they're doing.

Cool, so we seem to agree. Something like Firefox or Word is what I think should be the aim with FMX - a lot of care taken to make it not obviously alien like (say) a GTK-based application (nasty on Windows, truly horrible on OS X), but without thinking the effort is useless unless 'perfect' (which, as I said, isn't actually desirable in a cross platform application anyhow).

>  I'm a lost cause anyway;  we switched to Lazarus
> for OS X

How's that going (or gone) out of interest? The fact Lazarus itself looks completely alien on OS X has always put me off properly investigating it, along with how the LCL wraps Carbon not Cocoa.
0
Chris
2/1/2013 11:35:52 PM
> Cool, so we seem to agree. Something like Firefox or Word is what I think should be the aim with FMX - a lot of care taken to make it not obviously alien like (say) a GTK-based application (nasty on Windows, truly horrible on OS X), but without thinking the effort is useless unless 'perfect' (which, as I said, isn't actually desirable in a cross platform application anyhow).
> 
> >  I'm a lost cause anyway;  we switched to Lazarus
> > for OS X
> 
> How's that going (or gone) out of interest? The fact Lazarus itself looks completely alien on OS X has always put me off properly investigating it, along with how the LCL wraps Carbon not Cocoa.

Wouldn't that be an opportunity for a new threat with a new question, because this one is just about iOS controls?
0
Jacques
2/1/2013 11:57:44 PM
Am 01.02.2013 17:30, Eric Grange wrote:
>> Who complained about the "fake" (not native) buttons and controls in Java programs?
>
> A lot of people do. Non-skinned Java apps look awfully dated.

Since Java 6 (Update 10), there is a nice new Look & Feel included in 
the Standard Edition. I know very little commercial Java Swing apps 
which still use the old Metal L&F.

http://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/uiswing/lookandfeel/nimbus.html

Nimbus uses Java 2D vector graphics to draw the user interface (UI), 
rather than static bitmaps, so the UI can be crisply rendered at any 
resolution.

-- 
Michael Justin
0
Michael
2/2/2013 11:00:15 AM
Vincent GSELL wrote:

> Surely, it will be not in Delphi for iOS. This is a problem for me, if
> you target an iPhone app for example. And sincerly, re-implement those
> type of stuff will make me nervous

And it probably can violate Apple patents/copyright ?..

-- 
Alex

"Child who made the cake out of the sand unexpectedly broke 10 patents
owned by Apple."
0
Alex
2/2/2013 11:16:32 AM
> http://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/uiswing/lookandfeel/nimbus.html
> 
> Nimbus uses Java 2D vector graphics to draw the user interface (UI), 
> rather than static bitmaps, so the UI can be crisply rendered at any 
> resolution.

Still has the look of a soviet TV from the 70's.
0
Jacques
2/2/2013 5:23:19 PM
Am 02.02.2013 18:22, Jacques Gonzalez wrote:

> and non existing third party UI components market, that is available in Delphi and .NET.

A prominent example for a generic Swing UI framework is the NetBeans 
platform, which can be customized to implement applications (not only 
integrated development environments):

http://netbeans.org/features/platform/

For the Java platform, there are commercial and non-commercial user 
interface component libraries, for example

* MigLayout: http://www.miglayout.com/
* JGoodies: http://www.jgoodies.com/products/swing-suite/

Also for the Android platform, there are commercial and non-commercial 
user interface component libraries, such as

* DroidUX: http://www.droidux.com/products
* greendroid: http://greendroid.cyrilmottier.com/

-- 
Michael Justin
0
Michael
2/2/2013 7:03:59 PM
> {quote:title=Robert Triest wrote:}{quote}
> At the end everything is drawn on the screen, nobody will see the difference if it is pixel perfect.
> And if it is, who cares? Every website looks different and nobody is bothered about that.
> Who complained about the "fake" (not native) buttons and controls in Java programs?

Well the context here is mobile and it's very different than desktop or web sites,
because users are used to a particular look & FEEL and expect a certain (native) behaviour
and need to do interact with the devices fast and simply.

Java UI is certainly not something I would mention as a example to follow.
It has never achieve broad market acceptance on the UI, the ease of use is still way back 
compared to other technologies, not to mention
and near to non existing third party UI components market, that is available in Delphi and .NET.

Edited by: Jacques Gonzalez on Feb 2, 2013 11:47 AM
0
Jacques
2/2/2013 7:47:50 PM
On 2/2/13 7:23 PM, Jacques Gonzalez wrote:
>> http://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/uiswing/lookandfeel/nimbus.html
>>
>> Nimbus uses Java 2D vector graphics to draw the user interface (UI),
>> rather than static bitmaps, so the UI can be crisply rendered at any
>> resolution.
>
> Still has the look of a soviet TV from the 70's.

The latest Java GUI framework is actually JavaFX. In Java 8 it will look 
like this:

http://fxexperience.com/2013/01/modena-new-theme-for-javafx-8/

The current JavaFX "caspian" style is there for comparison a bit lower.
0
Jouni
2/3/2013 8:24:43 PM
Jacques Gonzalez wrote:

> > Even "non-native" controls can have the look AND feel of the native
> > ones, ISTM.
> 
> In theory yes, but in practice no.

Why in practice no? Nothing "in practice" prevents it.
 
> My original question wasn't about what "non-native" controls can or
> cannot, but whether the controls in Delphi for iOS are the native iOS
> controls.

Yes, but the discussion drifted towards what "native control" actually
means.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Opportunities multiply as they are seized."
 -- Sun tzu
0
Rudy
2/4/2013 7:37:06 AM
> http://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/uiswing/lookandfeel/nimbus.html

Looks ancient to me, it reminds me of old Oracle utilities, sluggish and 
painful in oh-so-many ways.

JavaFX looks neater, but behaves not-so-neatly, I guess the term for it 
would be "uncanny valley".

Eric
0
Eric
2/4/2013 7:58:20 AM
> {quote:title=Dominique Willems wrote:}{quote}
> Joanna Carter (Team OOAD) wrote:
> > I think, if they were truly real Cocoa controls, they wouldn't need
> > to use the wording "Pixel-perfect" :-)
> 
> Not that I care, but if they weren't truly real, would they use "native
> UI controls?"

*Context is important*. Source?
I figure your original sentence was referring to the UI _looking_ native on the respective platforms.
0
N
2/4/2013 8:07:58 AM
> {quote:title=Jacques Gonzalez wrote:}{quote}
> > Even "non-native" controls can have the look AND feel of the native
> > ones, ISTM.
> 
> In theory yes, but in practice no.
> 
> My original question wasn't about what "non-native" controls can or cannot,
> but whether the controls in Delphi for iOS are the native iOS controls.

It does not really matter what your original question was about.
Thanks to the usual suspect, it will end up in a discussion about the "proper" meaning of the word "native".
Have fun!


Kind regards,
D.
0
Don
2/4/2013 10:33:34 AM
Jacques Gonzalez wrote:

> > How hard is it to get the behaviour of a push button or edit field
> > or checkbox right? I don't think that the "feel" of most controls
> > is hard to get right.
> 
> Extremely hard if you don't have the specs, which is the case.

Why "extremely hard"? How hard is it to mimic the behaviour of a
standard control like a button or an edit field? It is not so hard to
find out "the specs", especially since Apple documents them.
 
> And even if you could get it right for a particular version of iOS, 
> it doesn't guarantee you have it for the next one.

Indeed. That is the only problem with mimicking. 

Not really a big problem though. Controls don't tend to be totally
different on a new version of the OS. The looks may change, but
behaviour changes much less. A big change in behaviour would not be
accepted by the user anyway.
-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"If I held you any closer I would be on the other side of you."
 -- Groucho Marx
0
Rudy
2/4/2013 1:30:42 PM
> Why "extremely hard"? How hard is it to mimic the behaviour of a
> standard control like a button or an edit field?

Apparently hard enough: FireMonkey's version of TEdit still had the 
"dancing or blurry text" issue last time I checked.
Then you've got Unicode larger-than-SizeOf(Char) characters.
And in iOS/Android, you've got all the extra magnifier logic which a 
non-native control has to reproduce.

 > The looks may change, but behaviour changes much less.

In Android the behavior of text edit can be changed by plugins, some 
provided by the users, other bundled by hardware vendors.
A custom edit would thus look different from the rest of the apps.

Eric
0
Eric
2/4/2013 2:06:49 PM
Le 04/02/13 13:30, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) a écrit :

> Not really a big problem though. Controls don't tend to be totally
> different on a new version of the OS. The looks may change, but
> behaviour changes much less.

I have only one comment to make about that - scrollbars :-)

(OS X one, that is)

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [Team OOAD]
0
Joanna
2/4/2013 2:10:47 PM
Eric Grange wrote:

> > Why "extremely hard"? How hard is it to mimic the behaviour of a
> > standard control like a button or an edit field?
> 
> Apparently hard enough: FireMonkey's version of TEdit still had the 
> "dancing or blurry text" issue last time I checked.

Yes, I know. I don't understand that either. Bu that does not mean it
is impossible, or too hard, only that they have a bug somewhere deep
down inside, they can't easily get rid of.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Nine out of ten doctors agree that one out of ten doctors is 
 an idiot."
0
Rudy
2/4/2013 3:22:30 PM
Joanna Carter (Team OOAD) wrote:

> Le 04/02/13 13:30, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) a écrit :
> 
> > Not really a big problem though. Controls don't tend to be totally
> > different on a new version of the OS. The looks may change, but
> > behaviour changes much less.
> 
> I have only one comment to make about that - scrollbars :-)
> 
> (OS X one, that is)

You mean that they only appear in certain situations since, IIRC, Lion?
What is the problem with that?

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"A dentist at work in his vocation always looks down in the
 mouth." -- George D. Prentice
0
Rudy
2/4/2013 3:24:26 PM
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

> Yes, I know. I don't understand that either. Bu that does not mean it
> is impossible, or too hard, only that they have a bug somewhere deep
> down inside, they can't easily get rid of.

So....

Is not impossible or hard, but they have a bug that can't easily get
rid of?"

Very coherent...


Cesar Romero
0
Cesar
2/4/2013 3:41:34 PM
Cesar Romero wrote:

> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> 
> > Yes, I know. I don't understand that either. Bu that does not mean
> > it is impossible, or too hard, only that they have a bug somewhere
> > deep down inside, they can't easily get rid of.
> 
> So....
> 
> Is not impossible or hard, but they have a bug that can't easily get
> rid of?"

Yes, it seems to be a drawing bug. That has nothing to do with the
possibility of perfectly mimicking a control, in look and feel.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Minsky's Second Law: Don't just do something. Stand there."
-- Marvin Minsky
0
Rudy
2/4/2013 5:10:12 PM
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

> Yes, it seems to be a drawing bug. That has nothing to do with the
> possibility of perfectly mimicking a control, in look and feel.

Rudy,


Please, you don't have to explain.
You don't wrote the code, it is not your software and we all know that
inside your head this can make sense.


Cesar Romero
0
Cesar
2/4/2013 5:44:09 PM
Le 04/02/13 15:24, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) a écrit :

> You mean that they only appear in certain situations since, IIRC, Lion?
> What is the problem with that?

There is no problem when you are using the native development tools but, 
most of the "imitation" control sets I have seen (including FMX) don't 
mimic that.

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [Team OOAD]
0
Joanna
2/4/2013 6:51:54 PM
On 2/1/2013 5:35 PM, Chris Rolliston wrote:
> How's that going (or gone) out of interest? The fact Lazarus itself looks completely alien on OS X has always put me off properly investigating it, along with how the LCL wraps Carbon not Cocoa.

It's gone well enough for us, but I don't know how strongly I'd
recommend it.

A *huge* positive is that we haven't had to rewrite Beyond Compare in a
new widgetset.  We have been able to add OS X support without
significantly impacting the stability or feature set of our Windows
version, and we can maintain feature parity easily.  We have custom
controls that eliminate many of the remaining differences between the
VCL, CLX, and LCL, but we still have quite a few $IFDEFs.  It has to be
less work than maintaining two parallel interfaces or rewriting
everything from scratch though, and much of our existing VCL knowledge
applies.

On the down side, as you said, it wraps Carbon rather than Cocoa, and
that's been a huge concern.  Even worse, the developer who did most of
their Carbon work isn't active anymore.  We sent in a bunch of patches
and their response was "How'd you like to take over as maintainer?" They
are looking into Cocoa support, but it isn't going quickly.

It is possible to create LCL-on-Qt-on-Cocoa apps too, but we'd already
done a bunch of Carbon-specific work by the time we found out that was
stable, so we haven't looked into it much yet.  The IDE's source has a
bunch of Carbon-specific assumptions that keep it from being built using
Qt on OS X, but it's supposed to work well enough for other apps.

Strangely enough, the fact that it is Carbon has also been a boon.  We
make heavy use of cooperative threads (fibers/coroutines) in our
foreground thread, and that's supported directly by the old Carbon
thread manager.  Cocoa doesn't have an equivalent, and using Cocoa
controls from thread manager threads causes problems.  If/when we switch
to Cocoa natively, it's going to be disruptive.

We've worked around a lot of the Lazarus/Delphi oddities regarding OS X
too.  Beyond Compare stays active, with a working menu, without any
windows open and can have multiple top-level windows.  Modal dialogs
show as sheets.  The color and font dialogs aren't modal.  We have
retina support.  We even did work to make the controls draw and work as
latently inactive like Cocoa, rather than disabling when a form is
inactive, like Carbon does.  I looked into using HIToolbar for our
toolbar, but consistency with the other platforms and decreased
implementation time nixed that for now.

Free Pascal itself hasn't given us any trouble.  AnsiString is UTF-8 on
OS X, so we just treat "string" is Unicode enabled everywhere, and we
haven't switched away from Kylix for Linux yet so we just have to write
Delphi 7 era compatible code otherwise.  Lazarus as an IDE works fine,
though we don't do any design-time work in it.  You can navigate code
while debugging, which is nice.  The debugger itself, is, unfortunately,
a huge step back, especially in the evaluate/modify dialog.

TL;DR: I'm happy we switched to Lazarus when we did, and based on
FireMonkey's progress, I think we made the right decision, but I'm still
looking for a better alternative.

-- 
Craig Peterson
Scooter Software
0
Craig
2/4/2013 8:05:29 PM
Am 04.02.2013 08:37, schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
> Jacques Gonzalez wrote:
> 
>>> Even "non-native" controls can have the look AND feel of the native
>>> ones, ISTM.
>>
>> In theory yes, but in practice no.
> 
> Why in practice no? Nothing "in practice" prevents it.

Yes and no (and don't tell me you didn't consider that):
In theory Rudy's 100% right, but when looking at the reality he's
slightly wrong. In reality there always come up bugs either in the
native control which the "clone" didn't mimick or the other way round or
the OS creator subtly or radically changes the native control with a new
OS version. How fas will and can EMBT react on those changes?
How are they made aware of them? I guess Apple doesn't have some
"subscription" e-mail service with informations about little changes in
their controls.

Oh, a-propos APple: today I read that the current spell checker on OS X
is buggy in so far that certain character sequences can reproducibly
crash any application using certain controls. What a nasty bug! ;-)

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
2/4/2013 10:11:19 PM
Am 04.02.2013 19:51, schrieb Joanna Carter (Team OOAD) <Joanna Carter
[Team OOAD]:
> Le 04/02/13 15:24, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) a écrit :
> 
>> You mean that they only appear in certain situations since, IIRC, Lion?
>> What is the problem with that?
> 
> There is no problem when you are using the native development tools but, 
> most of the "imitation" control sets I have seen (including FMX) don't 
> mimic that.
> 

Hello,

in this case in favour of Rudy: this is something which can be done and
Rudy's question was about can and not is.

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
2/4/2013 10:18:06 PM
Markus Humm wrote:

> Yes and no (and don't tell me you didn't consider that):
> In theory Rudy's 100% right, but when looking at the reality he's
> slightly wrong. In reality there always come up bugs either in the
> native control which the "clone" didn't mimick

What significant bugs are there in, say, listboxes or buttons or any
other standard control? ISTM that they would be highest priority and
should have been found and corrected a long time ago. And if the clone
doesn't have a certain bug, that is a good thing, isn't it?
 
> Oh, a-propos APple: today I read that the current spell checker on OS
> X is buggy in so far that certain character sequences can reproducibly
> crash any application using certain controls. What a nasty bug! ;-)

Never happened to me or anyone around me, so fortunately, it didn't hit
us. <g>

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution."
 -- Emma Goldman
0
Rudy
2/5/2013 10:49:38 AM
Markus,

>>> You mean that they only appear in certain situations since, IIRC, Lion?
>>> What is the problem with that?
>> 
>> There is no problem when you are using the native development tools but,
>> most of the "imitation" control sets I have seen (including FMX) don't
>> mimic that.
>> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> in this case in favour of Rudy: this is something which can be done and
> Rudy's question was about can and not is.

yes, let's not get reality oon the way of a good nitpicking about semantics. ;)
0
marc
2/5/2013 12:40:48 PM
Art van Gotlaid wrote:

> I recommend to stop this unproductive discussion. Firefox is not
> native, do you use it?

I do, but I don't know if it uses native controls or not.
-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

Gold's Law: If the shoe fits, it's ugly.
0
Rudy
2/5/2013 1:29:04 PM
Cesar Romero wrote:

> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> 
> > Yes, it seems to be a drawing bug. That has nothing to do with the
> > possibility of perfectly mimicking a control, in look and feel.
> 
> Rudy,
> 
> Please, you don't have to explain.

Please, you don't have to reply before you understand what I am saying.

<sigh> I am not discussing FireMonkey here. I know it has bugs. 

I am merely talking about the possibility of mimicking controls so well
that hardly anyone notices, no matter with which framework. Until you
understand that, stop patronizing me.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Yes, my friends, I too am prepared to die for a cause, but
 there is no cause for which I am prepared to kill."
 --Mohandas Gandhi
0
Rudy
2/5/2013 1:31:44 PM
Le 05/02/13 13:29, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) a écrit :

>> I recommend to stop this unproductive discussion. Firefox is not
>> native, do you use it?
>
> I do, but I don't know if it uses native controls or not.

I just did a quick comparison of Safari and Firefox - if you look at the 
scrollbar behaviour, Firefox doesn't behave the same; its scrollbars 
never disappear; Safari's do.

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [Team OOAD]
0
Joanna
2/5/2013 1:45:29 PM
marc hoffman wrote:

> > in this case in favour of Rudy: this is something which can be done
> > and Rudy's question was about can and not is.
> 
> yes, let's not get reality oon the way of a good nitpicking about
> semantics. ;)

What "nitpicking" about what "semantics"? 

ISTM that many in this thread read into it what they expect to find,
instead of actually try to read what is written.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Descended from the apes? Let us hope that it is not true. But 
 if it is, let us pray that it may not become generally known."
 -- FA Montagu.
0
Rudy
2/5/2013 1:56:47 PM
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

> ISTM that many in this thread read into it what they expect to find,
> instead of actually try to read what is written.

A common problem everywhere.  

-- 
Nick
0
Nick
2/5/2013 2:21:31 PM
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

> I am merely talking about the possibility of mimicking controls so
> well that hardly anyone notices, no matter with which framework.
> Until you understand that, stop patronizing me.

Of course one can mimicking controls, but so far after several releases
and updates it was not possible for embarcadero to make the basic
controls as TEdit and TMemo just work.

I'm not talking about works exactly as the platform native ones, I mean
just work accept characters and display.

So you is the one that do not understand, we know that "every kind of
sofware can be reproducible"

You repeat it several times, do not make FMX better, do not fix the
bugs. Actually I'm sure that you don't know what kind of bugs make FMX
not good for professional software development, the only thing you do
is repeat like a child that "it can be done".

Well, good joke a dentist tell to software develepers that software can
be reproducible. Do you have anything useful to say or you just want to
continue repeating it like a child?



Cesar Romero
0
Cesar
2/5/2013 2:48:40 PM
Cesar Romero wrote:

> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> 
> > I am merely talking about the possibility of mimicking controls so
> > well that hardly anyone notices, no matter with which framework.
> > Until you understand that, stop patronizing me.
> 
> Of course one can mimicking controls, but so far after several
> releases and updates it was not possible for embarcadero to make the
> basic controls as TEdit and TMemo just work.

That may be, especially since it uses several graphics engines. But
that doesn't take away that it is not impossible to get not only the
look, but also the "feel" right, as some claimed here. I was not
specifically talking about FM.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"You have to stay in shape.  My grandmother, she started walking 
 five miles a day when she was 60.  She's 97 today and we don't 
 know where she is!" -- Ellen DeGeneres.
0
Rudy
2/5/2013 4:34:22 PM
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

>  I was not
> specifically talking about FM.

So your usual guessing, you talk about something else that you don't
know too?


Cesar Romero
0
Cesar
2/5/2013 4:37:39 PM
Joanna Carter (Team OOAD) wrote:

> Le 05/02/13 13:29, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) a écrit :
> 
> >> I recommend to stop this unproductive discussion. Firefox is not
> >> native, do you use it?
> > 
> > I do, but I don't know if it uses native controls or not.
> 
> I just did a quick comparison of Safari and Firefox - if you look at
> the scrollbar behaviour, Firefox doesn't behave the same; its
> scrollbars never disappear; Safari's do.

And is that a problem? In my setup, scrollbars simply don't disappear,
not even in Mountain Lion. I hate "mystery meat navigation". If there
are scrollbars, I want to see them up front. They can be disabled if
they don't apply, but I want to know IF they are there at all.

And I happily use Firefox both on the Mac and on Windows. I don't think
it bothers many people (I doubt many people even noticed) that the
scrollbar behaviour is slightly different. That behaviour is a gimmick
anyway, and an annoying one to boot.

Now take a look at the Gimp or Inkscape. I use those too, and they have
their own look and feel. Never bothered me, and I am pretty picky.
-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called 
 research, would it?" -- Albert Einstein
0
Rudy
2/5/2013 4:50:05 PM
Le 05/02/13 16:34, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) a écrit :

> "You have to stay in shape.  My grandmother, she started walking
>  five miles a day when she was 60.  She's 97 today and we don't
>  know where she is!" -- Ellen DeGeneres.

Thank you for making my day - this made me laugh out loud :-)

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [Team OOAD]
0
Joanna
2/5/2013 5:12:04 PM
Le 05/02/13 16:50, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) a écrit :

> And is that a problem?

Not to me - I was just pointing out that differences like this are 
noticeable if you are using the "disappearing" setting and, thus, the 
controls are probably not "native" in Firefox.

> And I happily use Firefox both on the Mac and on Windows. I don't think
> it bothers many people (I doubt many people even noticed) that the
> scrollbar behaviour is slightly different. That behaviour is a gimmick
> anyway, and an annoying one to boot.

Once again, that annoyance is in your opinion - I like it. OS X gives 
you the choice - no problem.

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [Team OOAD]
0
Joanna
2/5/2013 5:14:59 PM
Rudy,

>>> in this case in favour of Rudy: this is something which can be done
>>> and Rudy's question was about can and not is.
>> 
>> yes, let's not get reality oon the way of a good nitpicking about
>> semantics. ;)
> 
> What "nitpicking" about what "semantics"?

that you are arguing a hypothetical "can", while what matters to people 
is what *is*, and *will*.
0
marc
2/5/2013 5:43:26 PM
Am 05.02.2013 11:49, schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
> Markus Humm wrote:
> 
>  
>> Oh, a-propos APple: today I read that the current spell checker on OS
>> X is buggy in so far that certain character sequences can reproducibly
>> crash any application using certain controls. What a nasty bug! ;-)
> 
> Never happened to me or anyone around me, so fortunately, it didn't hit
> us. <g>
> 

So stay clear of entering file:// type urls in those, as this is at
least one sequence which triggers it.

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
2/5/2013 6:34:41 PM
Am 05.02.2013 18:43, schrieb marc hoffman:
> Rudy,
> 
>>>> in this case in favour of Rudy: this is something which can be done
>>>> and Rudy's question was about can and not is.
>>>
>>> yes, let's not get reality oon the way of a good nitpicking about
>>> semantics. ;)
>>
>> What "nitpicking" about what "semantics"?
> 
> that you are arguing a hypothetical "can", while what matters to people 
> is what *is*, and *will*.
> 

Yep. And I'm currently wondering why QT (afaik at least) which formerly
had gone the route of mimicking now turns to the route of using
plattform native controls as basis.

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
2/5/2013 6:37:50 PM
Markus Humm wrote:

> Yep. And I'm currently wondering why QT (afaik at least) which
> formerly had gone the route of mimicking now turns to the route of
> using plattform native controls as basis.

Because the dont have asked to Rudy, if they did, they will know they
can mimicking, you know, every software company must have a dentist
opinion :)



Cesar Romero
0
Cesar
2/5/2013 7:13:08 PM
On 2/5/13 8:34 PM, Markus Humm wrote:
> Am 05.02.2013 11:49, schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
>> Markus Humm wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Oh, a-propos APple: today I read that the current spell checker on OS
>>> X is buggy in so far that certain character sequences can reproducibly
>>> crash any application using certain controls. What a nasty bug! ;-)
>>
>> Never happened to me or anyone around me, so fortunately, it didn't hit
>> us. <g>
>>
>
> So stay clear of entering file:// type urls in those, as this is at
> least one sequence which triggers it.

It's actually File:///

http://thenextweb.com/shareables/2013/02/02/typing-these-eight-characters-will-crash-almost-any-application-on-your-mac/

http://tinyurl.com/bk7x6la
0
Jouni
2/5/2013 7:18:26 PM
Am 05.02.2013 20:18, schrieb Jouni Aro:
> On 2/5/13 8:34 PM, Markus Humm wrote:
>> Am 05.02.2013 11:49, schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
>>> Markus Humm wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Oh, a-propos APple: today I read that the current spell checker on OS
>>>> X is buggy in so far that certain character sequences can reproducibly
>>>> crash any application using certain controls. What a nasty bug! ;-)
>>>
>>> Never happened to me or anyone around me, so fortunately, it didn't hit
>>> us. <g>
>>>
>>
>> So stay clear of entering file:// type urls in those, as this is at
>> least one sequence which triggers it.
> 
> It's actually File:///
> 
> http://thenextweb.com/shareables/2013/02/02/typing-these-eight-characters-will-crash-almost-any-application-on-your-mac/
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/bk7x6la
> 

Yes you're of course right. That once again shows that differentiating
too much between upper and lowercase is more of a hassle than a positive
thing... ;-)

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
2/5/2013 9:51:39 PM
Brandon Staggs wrote:

> "Rudy Velthuis" wrote on Fri, 1 Feb 2013 07:00:06 -0800:
> 
> >> "legit" in the same way i guess as calling skinned Windows desktop
> >> aps "Windows 8 apps". In other words, if you want to mislead.
> > 
> > If they look like a duck, walk like a duck and quack like a duck,
> > why not?
> 
> Well they certainly don't walk like a duck (if they did, you'd be able
> to put them in the metro store without having them shoved into the
> nigh-invisible "desktop app" category), and if you're actually using
> Windows 8 on a regular basis (and I mean TIFKAM side) you can tell
> they don't really look like ducks either.

I wasn't thinking of Windows 8's TIFKAM. I was thinking of controls in
general.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Before the war is ended, the war party assumes the divine right
 to denounce and silence all opposition to war as unpatriotic 
 and cowardly." -- Senator Robert M. La Follette
0
Rudy
2/6/2013 7:26:06 AM
marc hoffman wrote:

> Rudy,
> 
> >>> I said "not necessarily" for a good reason. If they mean controls
> >>> that were written in natively compiled code, it is legit to call
> >>> them native controls.
> >> 
> >> "legit" in the same way i guess as calling skinned Windows desktop
> >> aps "Windows 8 apps". In other words, if you want to mislead.
> > 
> > If they look like a duck, walk like a duck and quack like a duck,
> > why not?
> 
> in other words, if you CAN fool people, why not try? really?

What do you mean with "fool" people? 

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the 
 things they make it easier to do don't need to be done." 
 -- Andy Rooney.
0
Rudy
2/6/2013 7:26:56 AM
David Erbas-White wrote:

> On 2/1/2013 9:55 AM, Gilbert Padilla wrote:
> > I believe the idea behind fire monkey is to Write-Once ->
> > Deploy-Anywhere
> > 
> 
> I thought it was:

Oh, how I love trying-to-be-funny smart-ass remarks like that. NOT.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"A state of war only serves as an excuse for domestic tyranny."
 -- Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
0
Rudy
2/6/2013 7:28:37 AM
Luigi Sandon wrote:

> > I believe the idea behind fire monkey is to Write-Once ->
> > Deploy-Anywhere
> 
> No, it is write-once -> Bugs-Everywhere.

And another one. Scratch me off the floor.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument 
 than why I have one."
 -- Cato the Elder (234-149 BC, AKA Marcus Porcius Cato)
0
Rudy
2/6/2013 7:29:14 AM
Cesar Romero wrote:

> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> 
> >  I was not
> > specifically talking about FM.
> 
> So your usual guessing, you talk about something else that you don't
> know too?

I was talking about mimicking controls in general. No need to be
patronizing.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Naturally we feel that mentally ill people are not what we are
 looking for when we hire programmers - although there is no
 empirical data to support or contradict that view... Is it
 appropriate to give tests for mental illness to anyone applying
 for any kind of job?" 
 -- Weinberg The Psychology of Computer Programming
0
Rudy
2/6/2013 7:30:37 AM
Joanna Carter (Team OOAD) wrote:

> Le 05/02/13 16:50, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) a écrit :
> 
> > And is that a problem?
> 
> Not to me - I was just pointing out that differences like this are 
> noticeable if you are using the "disappearing" setting and, thus, the 
> controls are probably not "native" in Firefox.

And my point has always been that yes, people may notice it, but most
won't be bothered to care.
 
> > And I happily use Firefox both on the Mac and on Windows. I don't
> > think it bothers many people (I doubt many people even noticed)
> > that the scrollbar behaviour is slightly different. That behaviour
> > is a gimmick anyway, and an annoying one to boot.
> 
> Once again, that annoyance is in your opinion

Yes, "mystery meat navigation" annoys me. And apparently not just me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_meat_navigation

Strictly spoken, scrollbars that only appear if you scroll are perhaps
not exactly mystery meat, but the principle is very close and just as
annoying, IMO.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

Green's Law Of Debate: Anything is possible if you don't know 
what you're talking about.
0
Rudy
2/6/2013 10:02:02 AM
Markus Humm wrote:

> So stay clear of entering file:// type urls in those, as this is at
> least one sequence which triggers it.

Thanks for telling me that there is a bug in some Apple software. It is
much appreciated. I guess I'll finally have to go back to Windows,
which is completely bug free. <g>

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"This book fills a much-needed gap."
-- Moses Hadas (1900-1966) in a review
0
Rudy
2/6/2013 10:03:49 AM
Le 06/02/13 10:02, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) a écrit :

> Strictly spoken, scrollbars that only appear if you scroll are perhaps
> not exactly mystery meat, but the principle is very close and just as
> annoying, IMO.

I would guess that this opinion can be coloured by the way in which you 
habitually interact with the UI.

I, for one, use the trackpad on my MacBook Pro or a Magic Mouse. 
Possibly because of this, I tend to use the two-finger swipe on the 
trackpad, or the one-finger swipe on the mouse, to scroll, no matter 
what app I am using; so I rarely notice if there are scrollbars visible 
or not.

Of course, once I start scrolling by swiping, if the scrollbars were not 
visible, they appear and act as indicators of where I am in the 
scrollable area.

For those who use a mouse without a touch surface, the disappearance of 
the scrollbars could be more of a nuisance; fortunately, the optio to 
show them permanently is also available.

The underlying point behind this discussion is that, for those who want 
to use the swiping gestures, always-visible scrollbars are a departure 
from the norm and can "steal" window area and distract from the task in 
hand.

One of the reasons I like OS X (visually) is because it is so 
minimalistic and the "chrome" is reasonably unobtrusive.

Thus, when cross-platform UI widgets do not provide the default 
flexibility of appearance and behaviour, they can easily look out of 
place to those who prefer the flexibility that the default behaviour on, 
say, OS X provides.

As I indicated, I really had not noticed the ever-present scrollbars in 
Firefox, maybe because of my scrolling preferences.

Others will have differing opinions :-)

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [Team OOAD]
0
Joanna
2/6/2013 10:49:16 AM
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

> I am merely talking about the possibility of mimicking controls so
> well that hardly anyone notices, no matter with which framework.
> Until you understand that, stop patronizing me.

Do you actually know any lib which has achieved this (cross-platform
GUI controls which look and feel like native ones, perfectly)? If there
isn't any, then perhaps while in theory possible, it is too hard to do
in practice?


ain
0
Ain
2/6/2013 11:02:05 AM
Am 06.02.2013 11:49, schrieb Joanna Carter (Team OOAD) <Joanna Carter
[Team OOAD]:

> 
> As I indicated, I really had not noticed the ever-present scrollbars in 
> Firefox, maybe because of my scrolling preferences.
> 

Maybe that's also because they don't use much screen space and/or are a
non issue at all? Hiding just creates opportunity to introduce further
bugs as it need further code to be written. But continue to have your
fun with hidden scrollbars none the less...

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
2/6/2013 7:43:59 PM
Am 06.02.2013 11:03, schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
> Markus Humm wrote:
> 
>> So stay clear of entering file:// type urls in those, as this is at
>> least one sequence which triggers it.
> 
> Thanks for telling me that there is a bug in some Apple software. It is
> much appreciated. I guess I'll finally have to go back to Windows,
> which is completely bug free. <g>
> 

Hello,

I never claimed that. There are some folks (not necessarily you) which
try to suggest Apple's flawless.

Btw. this bug is in OS X so it's in nearly all products using OS X GUI
libraries. (seems in a few it's not present)

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
2/6/2013 7:45:29 PM
Markus Humm wrote:

> Am 06.02.2013 11:03, schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
> > Markus Humm wrote:
> > 
> >> So stay clear of entering file:// type urls in those, as this is at
> >> least one sequence which triggers it.
> > 
> > Thanks for telling me that there is a bug in some Apple software.
> > It is much appreciated. I guess I'll finally have to go back to
> > Windows, which is completely bug free. <g>
> 
> I never claimed that.

You must be a German. <g>

Anyway, you do tend to abuse any thread that comes up to mention
something negative about Apple. You are like the Windows-sux crowd,
just with a different opponent.

You're a bit like Cato the Elder, who always ended a speech, no matter
about what, with "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse".
-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"When encountering a new philosophy or religion, do not
 convert, but rather assimilate."
 -- Shawn Mikula
0
Rudy
2/7/2013 1:13:42 AM
Don Delegate wrote:

> It does not really matter what your original question was about.
> Thanks to the usual suspect, it will end up in a discussion about the
> "proper" meaning of the word "native". 

Apparently not, although some people seem to have problems with that
and bring it up anywhere, even on SO, as comments to completely
unrelated isues.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Which is it, is man one of God's blunders or is God one of
 man's?"
 -- Nietzsche
0
Rudy
2/7/2013 1:15:32 AM
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

> > I'm pretty sure that many people would mind, if Apple changes their 
> > interface and a Delphi application is stuck in the old one, while
> > all the others automatically pick ut the new.
> 
> > +1 Helpful comment indicating where the limitations of the "I
> > mimik"
> strategy might end up.
> 
> When MS replaced the classic menu with the ribbon style the old code
> wasn't enough to display a Ribbon menu. A simple recompile didn't do
> the trick.

Well, they did not immedaitely make the ribbon a common control either,
so some frameworks mimicked it.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." 
 -- Leonardo da Vinci
0
Rudy
2/7/2013 1:17:14 AM
marc hoffman wrote:

> in other words, if you CAN fool people, why not try? really?

Why the polemic? 

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"You get what anyone gets; you get a lifetime."
 -- Death, Neil Gaiman Comic Sandman
0
Rudy
2/7/2013 1:18:18 AM
Cesar Romero wrote:

> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> 
> >  I was not
> > specifically talking about FM.
> 
> So your usual guessing,

Who says I'm guessing? 

Yes, as to the source of the bug, I would havr to guess. If I did, I
would tell Embarcadero so they could solve it.

But if I say I am not specifically talking about FM, that does not mean
I am guessing. How do you reach such highly illogical conclusions?
-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"The reasonable man adjusts himself to the world, the
 unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to
 himself; therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable
 man."
 -- George Bernard Shaw
0
Rudy
2/7/2013 1:21:32 AM
Ain Valtin wrote:

> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> 
> > I am merely talking about the possibility of mimicking controls so
> > well that hardly anyone notices, no matter with which framework.
> > Until you understand that, stop patronizing me.
> 
> Do you actually know any lib which has achieved this (cross-platform
> GUI controls which look and feel like native ones, perfectly)? If
> there isn't any, then perhaps while in theory possible, it is too
> hard to do in practice?

Someone in this thread said Qt was very close.

How hard it is depends on the approach taken, on the number of
platforms you want to support, on the skills of the graphics and
programming team, etc.

If I had to do it, I guess I would personally wrap platform-native
controls as much as possible, and then add some of my own. But that
would mean giving up a bit on flexibility.

If I had to mimic, I would write a general UI engine, but the controls
would be had-tuned for each platform.

How do well known cross-platform projects like OpenOffice, LibreOffice,
Inkscape, Mozilla, Chrome, etc. do this? Some use their own controls,
others use native controls, yet others use a mix.

I do know that Xcode is only cross-platform for Apple platforms, that
VS is not very cross-platform either, etc. How do you develop
cross-platform in these? ISTM, not at all.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

Brook's Law: Adding manpower to a late software project makes it 
later.
0
Rudy
2/7/2013 1:28:34 AM
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

> Yes, as to the source of the bug, I would havr to guess. If I did, I
> would tell Embarcadero so they could solve it.

Only if you actually use it, what is not the case, and if you did, then
you can open a QC and they could solve, but ...

> 
> But if I say I am not specifically talking about FM, that does not
> mean I am guessing. How do you reach such highly illogical
> conclusions?

Based in all your illogical statements so far.



Cesar Romero
0
Cesar
2/7/2013 1:35:52 AM
marc hoffman wrote:

> >> yes, let's not get reality oon the way of a good nitpicking about
> >> semantics. ;)
> > 
> > What "nitpicking" about what "semantics"?
> 
> that you are arguing a hypothetical "can",

<sigh>

How is that "nitpicking" about "semantics"? Answer: not at all.

ISTM you expected further discussion about your own pet peeve, the
"nitpicking" about the "semantics" of "native", so you did actually not
even bother to read what I wrote. Hence your totally non-sequitur
comment.

Just another indication that you seem to have problems with the word
"native": I just found you even abuse a thread on SO to nitpick about
the slowness of a "native CPU", when that ws not even a matter of
"native" vs. "managed", it was a matter of highly optimized FastCode in
32 bit vs. run-of-the-mill code in 64 bit, and both in "native CPU", so
it was not a "native CPU" issue at all.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"There are some experiences in life which should not be demanded 
 twice from any man, and one of them is listening to the Brahms 
 Requiem."
 -- George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)
0
Rudy
2/7/2013 1:38:17 AM
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

> 
> Someone in this thread said Qt was very close.

Do you know why?

Coz QT stoped to mimic and now uses the native controls :)


Cesar Romero
0
Cesar
2/7/2013 1:39:40 AM
Cesar Romero wrote:

> Markus Humm wrote:
> 
> > Yep. And I'm currently wondering why QT (afaik at least) which
> > formerly had gone the route of mimicking now turns to the route of
> > using plattform native controls as basis.
> 
> Because the dont have asked to Rudy,

Huh? I would personally use platform-native controls as well. That does
not mean it is not possibler to mimic controls. If you want a framework
that is as flexible as FireMonkey (and that is why many people chose to
use its predecessor products), you can only mimic.

I personally don't need controls that can have an angle of 20°, or can
be mirrored ad flipped etc. or buttons that can contain listboxes, so I
would use native controls myself. Much easier to implement, ISTM.

But my framework would not be as flexible and have no rotating cubes
ocntaining 2D and 3D components, etc.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

Rudin's Law: In a crisis that forces a choice to be made among 
alternative courses of action, people tend to choose the worst 
possible course.
0
Rudy
2/7/2013 1:44:24 AM
Cesar Romero wrote:

> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> 
> > Yes, as to the source of the bug, I would havr to guess. If I did, I
> > would tell Embarcadero so they could solve it.
> 
> Only if you actually use it, what is not the case

Huh? From what thumb did you suck that nonsense? 
-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Pardon him, Theodotus; he is a barbarian, and thinks that the 
 customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature." 
 -- George Bernard Shaw
0
Rudy
2/7/2013 1:59:39 AM
Cesar Romero wrote:

> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Someone in this thread said Qt was very close.
> 
> Do you know why?
> 
> Coz QT stoped to mimic 

<sigh> The question was about mimicking.

It was said Qt was very close BEFORE they started using native
controls.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"I've just learned about his illness. Let's hope it's nothing 
 trivial." -- Irvin S. Cobb
0
Rudy
2/7/2013 2:02:40 AM
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

> <sigh> The question was about mimicking.
> 
> It was said Qt was very close BEFORE they started using native
> controls.

So, they stoped coz they were close? great, you have a unique way to
think


Cesar Romero
0
Cesar
2/7/2013 2:17:21 AM
Cesar Romero wrote:

> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> 
> > <sigh> The question was about mimicking.
> > 
> > It was said Qt was very close BEFORE they started using native
> > controls.
> 
> So, they stoped coz they were close? 

I guess they stopped doing it because it is MUCH MORE WORK to maintain
a mimicking library and mimic each platform perfectly than one using
already existing controls, even if that means you have different
wrapper code for different platforms.

A mimicking library is much more flexible, and often can do things
native controls generally can't, but it is more work to maintain,
unless you don't care about perfect mimicry.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

Cropp's Law: The amount of work done varies inversely with the 
amount of time spent in the office.
0
Rudy
2/7/2013 2:56:18 AM
> unless you don't care about perfect mimicry.

But then you cross into the uncanny valley, which brings its own host of 
problems, as IME users come to dislike your UI without being able to put 
a finger on any particular issue.

Eric
0
Eric
2/7/2013 7:18:32 AM
Eric Grange wrote:

> > unless you don't care about perfect mimicry.
> 
> But then you cross into the uncanny valley, which brings its own host
> of problems, as IME users come to dislike your UI without being able
> to put a finger on any particular issue.

Perhaps. Take a look at some tools like Inkscape and the Gimp. There UI
is not "native" at all, but it works well.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"We all agree that your theory is crazy, but is it crazy enough?"
 -- Niels Bohr (1885-1962)
0
Rudy
2/7/2013 8:15:39 AM
> Perhaps. Take a look at some tools like Inkscape and the Gimp. There UI
> is not "native" at all, but it works well.

Amongst Linux users maybe, I don't know many fans they have in the 
Windows or Mac world. As far as the Gimp goes, I personally could never 
get into it, even though I tried several times, it always felt too 
different.

Eric
0
Eric
2/7/2013 8:30:42 AM
Eric Grange wrote:

> > Perhaps. Take a look at some tools like Inkscape and the Gimp.
> > There UI is not "native" at all, but it works well.
> 
> Amongst Linux users maybe, I don't know many fans they have in the 
> Windows or Mac world.

They do. The Windows and Mac versions seem to be quite popular, the
Windows version of Inkscape probably even more than the Linux version.
Some people simply don't mind the slightly different UI. They only care
what the product offers in functionality.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"The ability to simplify means to eliminate the unnecessary so
 that the necessary may speak." -- Hans Hoffmann
0
Rudy
2/7/2013 9:28:05 AM
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

> > Do you actually know any lib which has achieved this (cross-platform
> > GUI controls which look and feel like native ones, perfectly)? If
> > there isn't any, then perhaps while in theory possible, it is too
> > hard to do in practice?
> 
> Someone in this thread said Qt was very close.

Since Qt had been in that buisness for quite some time we should
consider them to be experts on that field. And they decided to switch
from mimicking to wraping native controls. This seems to indicate that
mimicking is so much more work / harder that it isn't practical.


ain
0
Ain
2/7/2013 10:32:07 AM
Ain Valtin wrote:

> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> 
> > > Do you actually know any lib which has achieved this
> > > (cross-platform GUI controls which look and feel like native
> > > ones, perfectly)? If there isn't any, then perhaps while in
> > > theory possible, it is too hard to do in practice?
> > 
> > Someone in this thread said Qt was very close.
> 
> Since Qt had been in that buisness for quite some time we should
> consider them to be experts on that field. And they decided to switch
> from mimicking to wraping native controls. This seems to indicate that
> mimicking is so much more work / harder that it isn't practical.

They support a lot of platforms, AFAIK. And I, too, think that it is
easier to wrap existing controls. But it gives you less flexibility, so
I guess it depends on your needs.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

Bo Diddeley's Observation On The Law: Always take a lawyer with 
you, and bring another lawyer to watch him.
0
Rudy
2/7/2013 1:45:14 PM
On 2013-02-06 07:26:56 +0000, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) said:

> marc hoffman wrote:
> 
>> Rudy,
>> 
>>>>> I said "not necessarily" for a good reason. If they mean controls
>>>>> that were written in natively compiled code, it is legit to call
>>>>> them native controls.
>>>> 
>>>> "legit" in the same way i guess as calling skinned Windows desktop
>>>> aps "Windows 8 apps". In other words, if you want to mislead.
>>> 
>>> If they look like a duck, walk like a duck and quack like a duck,
>>> why not?
>> 
>> in other words, if you CAN fool people, why not try? really?
> 
> What do you mean with "fool" people?

so selling something by claiming it to be something it is not, because 
it looks close enough is ok by you?

honestly, you amaze me.
0
marc
2/7/2013 1:47:49 PM
On 2/6/13 9:56 PM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> Cesar Romero wrote:
>
>> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> I guess

I stopped reading there
0
Mike
2/7/2013 1:53:53 PM
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

> They support a lot of platforms, AFAIK. And I, too, think that it is
> easier to wrap existing controls. But it gives you less flexibility,
> so I guess it depends on your needs.

You guess a lot and write none useful, so why don't you stop?


Cesar Romero
0
Cesar
2/7/2013 2:17:59 PM
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

> > Since Qt had been in that buisness for quite some time we should
> > consider them to be experts on that field. And they decided to
> > switch from mimicking to wraping native controls. This seems to
> > indicate that mimicking is so much more work / harder that it isn't
> > practical.
> 
> They support a lot of platforms, AFAIK. And I, too, think that it is
> easier to wrap existing controls. But it gives you less flexibility,
> so I guess it depends on your needs.

Sure. But earlier in this thread you suggested that you don't think it
is too hard to perfectly mimick native controls. So if it isn't hard
and gives you more flexibility, then it makes sense to go for it, no?
Yet it seems that there is no such a lib available, on the contrary, Qt
which was close to achieving it decided to switch to the wraping
technique...


ain
0
Ain
2/7/2013 2:49:15 PM
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

> You're a bit like Cato the Elder, who always ended a speech, no matter
> about what, with "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse".

Interestingly enough, in Sweden this cite is most often written
"Praeterea censeo Chartaginem esse delendam". I do wonder what Cato
actually said...
0
Anders
2/7/2013 3:24:22 PM
Anders Isaksson wrote:

> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> 
> > You're a bit like Cato the Elder, who always ended a speech, no
> > matter about what, with "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse".
> 
> Interestingly enough, in Sweden this cite is most often written
> "Praeterea censeo Chartaginem esse delendam". I do wonder what Cato
> actually said...

I have seen both, but what I wrote is what my Latin teacher told me. It
feels better, IMO. "esse delendam" sounds like it was taken from a
legal textbook, not from a speech.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"All murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers 
 and to the sound of trumpets." -- Voltaire
0
Rudy
2/7/2013 4:58:43 PM
Cesar Romero wrote:

> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> 
> > They support a lot of platforms, AFAIK. And I, too, think that it is
> > easier to wrap existing controls. But it gives you less flexibility,
> > so I guess it depends on your needs.
> 
> You guess a lot

Where? I said I think it is easier to wrap existing controls, because
that is my experience. Not a guess. But it limits the flexibility. That
is not a guess either.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"The more laws and order are made prominent, the more thieves
 and robbers there will be."
 -- Lao Tsu
0
Rudy
2/7/2013 5:02:05 PM
Ain Valtin wrote:

> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> 
> > > Since Qt had been in that buisness for quite some time we should
> > > consider them to be experts on that field. And they decided to
> > > switch from mimicking to wraping native controls. This seems to
> > > indicate that mimicking is so much more work / harder that it
> > > isn't practical.
> > 
> > They support a lot of platforms, AFAIK. And I, too, think that it is
> > easier to wrap existing controls. But it gives you less flexibility,
> > so I guess it depends on your needs.
> 
> Sure. But earlier in this thread you suggested that you don't think it
> is too hard to perfectly mimick native controls.

Indeed. But the more platforms you support, the more work it is to
mimic the different controls of each platform. It doesn't get harder,
but it certainly needs more work.

Sure, wrapping is also a lot of work, but not as much as completely
mimicking everything.
-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"I prayed for twenty years but received no answer until I
 prayed with my legs."
 -- Frederick Douglass, escaped slave
0
Rudy
2/7/2013 5:04:44 PM
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

> Where? I said I think it is easier to wrap existing controls, because
> that is my experience. Not a guess. But it limits the flexibility.
> That is not a guess either.

A lot of your (unnecessary) posts have the sentences "I disagree" or "I
guess", just look what you post and you will see where.


Cesar Romero
0
Cesar
2/7/2013 5:13:15 PM
Cesar Romero wrote:

> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> 
> > Where? I said I think it is easier to wrap existing controls,
> > because that is my experience. Not a guess. But it limits the
> > flexibility.  That is not a guess either.
> 
> A lot of your (unnecessary) posts have the sentences "I disagree" or
> "I guess", just look what you post and you will see where.

Yes, so what? Are you always cocksure?
-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"I don't feel good."
 -- The last words of Luther Burbank (1849-1926)
0
Rudy
2/7/2013 5:18:51 PM
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

> > > Where? I said I think it is easier to wrap existing controls,
> > > because that is my experience. Not a guess. But it limits the
> > > flexibility.  That is not a guess either.
> > 
> > A lot of your (unnecessary) posts have the sentences "I disagree" or
> > "I guess", just look what you post and you will see where.
> 
> Yes, so what? Are you always cocksure?

Then dont play dumb asking where I foundit, you say all the time that
you only guess, so you actually dont know.



Cesar Romero
0
Cesar
2/7/2013 5:43:45 PM
Am 07.02.2013 02:13, schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
> Markus Humm wrote:
> 
>> Am 06.02.2013 11:03, schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
>>> Markus Humm wrote:
>>>
>>>> So stay clear of entering file:// type urls in those, as this is at
>>>> least one sequence which triggers it.
>>>
>>> Thanks for telling me that there is a bug in some Apple software.
>>> It is much appreciated. I guess I'll finally have to go back to
>>> Windows, which is completely bug free. <g>
>>
>> I never claimed that.
> 
> You must be a German. <g>
> 
> Anyway, you do tend to abuse any thread that comes up to mention
> something negative about Apple. You are like the Windows-sux crowd,
> just with a different opponent.
> 

I just was referring that plattform native UI controls also have their
flaws. Windows has some as well. I just don't know one of head. The
example provided was something I've read 1-2 days before. Hadn't I read
that in that timeframe I hadn't mentioned it at all.

It also might help some Apple users until Apple hopefully fixes this issue.

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
2/7/2013 7:40:35 PM
Am 07.02.2013 02:17, schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
> Gilbert Padilla wrote:
> 
>>> I'm pretty sure that many people would mind, if Apple changes their 
>>> interface and a Delphi application is stuck in the old one, while
>>> all the others automatically pick ut the new.
>>
>>> +1 Helpful comment indicating where the limitations of the "I
>>> mimik"
>> strategy might end up.
>>
>> When MS replaced the classic menu with the ribbon style the old code
>> wasn't enough to display a Ribbon menu. A simple recompile didn't do
>> the trick.
> 
> Well, they did not immedaitely make the ribbon a common control either,
> so some frameworks mimicked it.
> 

Hello,

yep the Ribbon. Funny enough that even MS has created 2 versions: Office
integrated and Windows OS integrated (afaik at least). Seems they either
don't talk to each other or they do not properly plan. With good
interface one implementation should imho have been sufficient. Seems
they have more than enough ressources to do such paralell development...
;-) (I wish I had that amount of ressources! ;-) )

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
2/7/2013 7:42:33 PM
Markus Humm wrote:

> yep the Ribbon. Funny enough that even MS has created 2 versions:
> Office integrated and Windows OS integrated (afaik at least). Seems
> they either don't talk to each other or they do not properly plan

Yes, very interesting.  The Office team invented the ribbon to overcome
the limitations of the old menus/toolbars system.  Only after that did
the Windows team decide to copy it for the whole OS.

As you say, subtle differences suggest the OS ribbon was developed
again from scratch.  Presumably the Office version wasn't architected
for OS-wide use, though that's just a guess.

-- 
SteveT
0
Steve
2/7/2013 10:16:00 PM
Steve Thackery wrote:

> As you say, subtle differences suggest the OS ribbon was developed
> again from scratch.  Presumably the Office version wasn't architected
> for OS-wide use, though that's just a guess.

A guess that make sense.


Cesar Romero
0
Cesar
2/7/2013 11:26:48 PM
Cesar Romero wrote:

> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> 
> > > > Where? I said I think it is easier to wrap existing controls,
> > > > because that is my experience. Not a guess. But it limits the
> > > > flexibility.  That is not a guess either.
> > > 
> > > A lot of your (unnecessary) posts have the sentences "I disagree"
> > > or "I guess", just look what you post and you will see where.
> > 
> > Yes, so what? Are you always cocksure?
> 
> Then dont play dumb asking where I foundit,

See my sig. 
-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and
 the intelligent are full of doubt." -- Bertrand Russell
0
Rudy
2/8/2013 9:18:11 AM
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

> > Sure. But earlier in this thread you suggested that you don't think
> > it is too hard to perfectly mimick native controls.
> 
> Indeed. But the more platforms you support, the more work it is to
> mimic the different controls of each platform. It doesn't get harder,
> but it certainly needs more work.
> 
> Sure, wrapping is also a lot of work, but not as much as completely
> mimicking everything.

That work only has to be done once and the additional flexibility
gained by that sure outweights the trouble then?


ain
0
Ain
2/8/2013 10:38:16 AM
Ain Valtin wrote:

> > Indeed. But the more platforms you support, the more work it is to
> > mimic the different controls of each platform. It doesn't get
> > harder, but it certainly needs more work.
> > 
> > Sure, wrapping is also a lot of work, but not as much as completely
> > mimicking everything.
> 
> That work only has to be done once 

It must be done for each platform, because the behaviour and the looks
differ from platform to platform. If the looks were static, it might be
esiser, but currently, some buttons glow and listboxes scroll smoothly,
or show scrollbars only when you hover over them, while others don't
have listboxes at all, etc. etc.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

Lieberman's Law: Everybody lies; but it doesn't matter, since 
nobody listens.
0
Rudy
2/8/2013 11:10:53 AM
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

> IMO. "esse delendam" sounds like it was taken from a
> legal textbook, not from a speech.

Do you often listen to native Latin speech?
0
Anders
2/8/2013 2:49:08 PM
Anders Isaksson wrote:

> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> 
> > IMO. "esse delendam" sounds like it was taken from a
> > legal textbook, not from a speech.
> 
> Do you often listen to native Latin speech?

Not native, of course, but one gets a "feel" for such things when you
*read* Latin, which I had to do in school. And Cato the Elder used to
hold speeches, and that is the kind of speech I meant.
-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"I have four children which is not bad considering I'm
 not a Catholic." -- Peter Ustinov.
0
Rudy
2/8/2013 6:06:49 PM
Markus Humm wrote:

> > Anyway, you do tend to abuse any thread that comes up to mention
> > something negative about Apple. You are like the Windows-sux crowd,
> > just with a different opponent.
> 
> I just was referring that plattform native UI controls also have their
> flaws.

And of course you had to refer to an Apple product. I mean, there was
probably no suitable example in Windows.
-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"He had decided to live forever or die in the attempt."
 -- Joseph Heller.
0
Rudy
2/8/2013 6:09:05 PM
Am 08.02.2013 19:09, schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
> Markus Humm wrote:
> 
>>> Anyway, you do tend to abuse any thread that comes up to mention
>>> something negative about Apple. You are like the Windows-sux crowd,
>>> just with a different opponent.
>>
>> I just was referring that plattform native UI controls also have their
>> flaws.
> 
> And of course you had to refer to an Apple product. I mean, there was
> probably no suitable example in Windows.
> 

Hello,

you didn't properly read what I wrote I guess: I referred to Apple
because that example just had crossed my way so it was fresh.
Got it now? Had it been WIndows I had used that one.

Btw. Apple seems to have a new beta where it's fixed.

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
2/8/2013 8:32:54 PM
Am 08.02.2013 00:26, schrieb Cesar Romero:
> Steve Thackery wrote:
> 
>> As you say, subtle differences suggest the OS ribbon was developed
>> again from scratch.  Presumably the Office version wasn't architected
>> for OS-wide use, though that's just a guess.
> 
> A guess that make sense.
> 
> 

For describing the situation as is I think yes, otherwise not designing
it with reusability in mind doesn't make much sense. But that's a
different topic I guess.

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
2/8/2013 8:37:08 PM
Mike Margerum wrote:

> On 2/6/13 9:56 PM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> > Cesar Romero wrote:
> > 
> >> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> > I guess
> 
> I stopped reading there

.... and started to write. ;-)

-- 
Pieter

"That is the saving grace of humor, if you fail no one is laughing 
 at you." -- A. Whitney Brown
0
Pieter
2/9/2013 2:51:26 AM
Mike Margerum wrote:

> On 2/6/13 9:56 PM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> > Cesar Romero wrote:
> > 
> >> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> > I guess
> 
> I stopped reading there

Because you know better?

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Java, the best argument for Smalltalk since C++." -- unknown
0
Rudy
2/9/2013 1:01:45 PM
Markus Humm wrote:

> > And of course you had to refer to an Apple product. I mean, there
> > was probably no suitable example in Windows.
> 
> you didn't properly read what I wrote I guess: I referred to Apple

Whatever justification you come up with, it is telling that it was
about an Apple product. It was just a coincidence, right?

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the
 things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do."
 -- Samuel Clemens
0
Rudy
2/12/2013 10:48:12 AM
Am 12.02.2013 11:48, schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
> Markus Humm wrote:
> 
>>> And of course you had to refer to an Apple product. I mean, there
>>> was probably no suitable example in Windows.
>>
>> you didn't properly read what I wrote I guess: I referred to Apple
> 
> Whatever justification you come up with, it is telling that it was
> about an Apple product. It was just a coincidence, right?
> 

Hello,

what are you up to? The only issues so far I really had with Apple
products whas their "crappy" behaviour regarding information about their
Bluetooth limitations. The example about the input control was taken
because it's fresh. Had Apple 100% test coverage they had caught and
fixed it before delivering I guess. So that's another proof that the
world is complex enough today that 100% test coverage is normally not
really doable, because it's often not justifyable economically.
Otherwise MS wouldn't need so many service packs every month to fix
issues as well.

So I already told you it was coincidence and you keep asking sort of
"really?". Why? No wonder some people do not like your current attitude.
I'll stop answering this subthread - as you still try to interpret
things in my post I neither expressed nor meant and you clearly state
that no justification (means even the real one! [= I just had read about
this but the otherday]) is being accepted. No point in arguing with such
a person. Sorry Rudy!

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
2/12/2013 8:01:47 PM
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

> Markus Humm wrote:
> 
> > > And of course you had to refer to an Apple product. I mean, there
> > > was probably no suitable example in Windows.
> > 
> > you didn't properly read what I wrote I guess: I referred to Apple
> 
> Whatever justification you come up with, it is telling that it was
> about an Apple product. It was just a coincidence, right?

As I read it, yes it was.

-- 
Pieter

"Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability" -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
0
Pieter
2/13/2013 1:26:31 AM
Markus Humm wrote:

> what are you up to? 

I could ask the same.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"All religions are founded on the fear of the many and the
 cleverness of the few."
 -- Stendhal
0
Rudy
2/13/2013 10:55:18 AM
Pieter Zijlstra wrote:

> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> 
> > Markus Humm wrote:
> > 
> > > > And of course you had to refer to an Apple product. I mean,
> > > > there was probably no suitable example in Windows.
> > > 
> > > you didn't properly read what I wrote I guess: I referred to Apple
> > 
> > Whatever justification you come up with, it is telling that it was
> > about an Apple product. It was just a coincidence, right?
> 
> As I read it, yes it was.

Dunno. No matter in what thread I post, sooner or later Markus comes up
and tells me something negative about Apple. I have problems believing
in a coincidence here.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Liberty is the right to do what I like; license, the right
 to do what you like." -- Bertrand Russell
0
Rudy
2/13/2013 11:01:51 AM
Am 13.02.2013 11:55, schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
> Markus Humm wrote:
> 
>> what are you up to? 
> 
> I could ask the same.
> 

Hello,

that's quite simple: you insist on me "bashing" Apple. But this time I
simply used something as example which crossed my way a day before. So
no need to put intentions in my writing I didn't have. You just didn#t
seem to get that this was some example which was simply the nearest one
comming up without searching. Windows has its quirks as well. But they
weren't recent.

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
2/13/2013 7:24:50 PM
Am 13.02.2013 12:01, schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
> Pieter Zijlstra wrote:
> 
>> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
>>
>>> Markus Humm wrote:
>>>
>>>>> And of course you had to refer to an Apple product. I mean,
>>>>> there was probably no suitable example in Windows.
>>>>
>>>> you didn't properly read what I wrote I guess: I referred to Apple
>>>
>>> Whatever justification you come up with, it is telling that it was
>>> about an Apple product. It was just a coincidence, right?
>>
>> As I read it, yes it was.
> 
> Dunno. No matter in what thread I post, sooner or later Markus comes up
> and tells me something negative about Apple. I have problems believing
> in a coincidence here.
> 

Hello,

let's recount: the only problem with Apple I really have is with their
Bluetooth attitude. The rest is more or less ok (ok, non replaceable
batteries are bad, but they're bad with any manufacturer). So I tell the
same negative thing more than one time - ok, maybe. But claiming "tells
me something negative about Apple" implies "something different each
time". If there hand't been some article about that input handling bug a
day before I hadn't posted anything about it, as I normally do not
remember such issues, unless they persist and bother me (means I have to
use the software more often and the bug isn't removed in the next
version anyway - e.g. some Delphi bugs fall into that category - even
longstanding).

So just dismissing my justification like this was seen as impolite by me
thus triggering my post. If you had used more carefully selected words
(e.g. instead of "whatever") it might have been bearable.
=> just calm down! Otherwise more people will not bear you much longer I
guess. But that would be a waste on both sides. Just adjust your recent
attitude a bit.

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
2/13/2013 7:31:43 PM
Markus Humm wrote:

> that's quite simple: you insist on me "bashing" Apple. 

Not at all. I won't mind if you stop it.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

Lieberman's Law: Everybody lies; but it doesn't matter, since 
nobody listens.
0
Rudy
2/14/2013 9:10:26 AM
Markus Humm wrote:

> let's recount: the only problem with Apple I really have is with their
> Bluetooth attitude.

And with "vendor lock in" and with their iOS developer programme,
etc.etc. and you don't tire of telling me (not anyone else, just me)
about all these things.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"When women are depressed they either eat or go shopping. Men
 invade another country."
 -- Elayne Boosler
0
Rudy
2/14/2013 9:12:23 AM
Rudy,

>> Le 05/02/13 13:29, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) a écrit :
>> 
>>>> I recommend to stop this unproductive discussion. Firefox is not
>>>> native, do you use it?
>>> 
>>> I do, but I don't know if it uses native controls or not.
>> 
>> I just did a quick comparison of Safari and Firefox - if you look at
>> the scrollbar behaviour, Firefox doesn't behave the same; its
>> scrollbars never disappear; Safari's do.
> 
> And is that a problem? In my setup, scrollbars simply don't disappear,
> not even in Mountain Lion.

i cant comment on FireFox, i don't use it anymore. but in Chrome, the 
scrollbars often do behave oddly and don't let me use them properly the 
way Lion+ scroll bars are supposed to, and that IS a problem and a 
constant source of frustration when i do need to scroll a page (such as 
a build log) large enough for the regular flick-scrolling to be 
inefficient. And this is actually a very good example for why getting 
it 95% right often indeed just does not cut it.

—marc
0
marc
2/14/2013 11:45:31 AM
Am 14.02.2013 10:10, schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
> Markus Humm wrote:
> 
>> that's quite simple: you insist on me "bashing" Apple. 
> 
> Not at all. I won't mind if you stop it.
> 

You minunderstood. You belive I "bash" Apple. That's only true for one
area. And there their information politics just sucks. Period.

I didn't "bash" them for their issue with input auto correction. They
issued a new beta which is said to fix it quite timely. That's ok.

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
2/14/2013 7:13:00 PM
Am 14.02.2013 10:12, schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
> Markus Humm wrote:
> 
>> let's recount: the only problem with Apple I really have is with their
>> Bluetooth attitude.
> 
> And with "vendor lock in" and with their iOS developer programme,
> etc.etc. and you don't tire of telling me (not anyone else, just me)
> about all these things.
> 

Hello,

"vendor lock in" is bad when done no matter which vendor does it.
As for the developer programme: I don't have much problems with that
one, more with their support being so "single sentenced" and thus often
failing to answer the actual wquestion. Problematic is their "made for
iOS" programme. There they show a control freak nature in some things
which is not really needed.

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
2/14/2013 7:15:20 PM
Markus Humm wrote:

> Am 14.02.2013 10:10, schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
> > Markus Humm wrote:
> > 
> >> that's quite simple: you insist on me "bashing" Apple. 
> > 
> > Not at all. I won't mind if you stop it.
> > 
> 
> You minunderstood. You belive I "bash" Apple. 

Yes. Perhaps not consciously, but you do seem to find negative examples
of Apple products or behaviour everywhere and each and every time, you
seem to have the urge to tell me about it.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it 
 for the rest of your life." -- Michael Sinz
0
Rudy
2/15/2013 8:22:36 AM
Markus Humm wrote:

> "vendor lock in" is bad when done no matter which vendor does it.

And you're doing it again. <g>

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"The cardinal doctrine of a fanatic's creed is that his enemies
 are the enemies of God."
 -- Andrew Dickson White
0
Rudy
2/15/2013 8:23:27 AM
> {quote:title=marc hoffman wrote:}
> honestly, you amaze me.
{quote}

Honestly, is very dissapointing read that ng on this days.

Seems like every post need to be commentd by Rudy, and for the quality of the responses comming from him, he is just commenting for the sake. 
A few Rudy's post add something to the discussion, and the ammount of comments from him becomes impossible to read to people really having something to add to the origional discussion. 
Who moderates Rudy comments? This ng becomes the reign of Rudy, sadly. Embarcadero wake up! 

Don't you think Rudy, maybe is better you just shout your mouth for a while? Make us a favor and let us discuss things seem you don't care enopugh, please.

Best regards.
0
german
2/16/2013 3:25:47 PM
german gentile wrote:

> Honestly, is very dissapointing read that ng on this days.

Same here.


> 
> Seems like every post need to be commentd by Rudy, and for the
> quality of the responses comming from him, he is just commenting for
> the sake.  A few Rudy's post add something to the discussion, and the
> ammount of comments from him becomes impossible to read to people
> really having something to add to the origional discussion.  Who
> moderates Rudy comments? This ng becomes the reign of Rudy, sadly.
> Embarcadero wake up!


Based on my own experience, you will get reply from Rudy, Nick and
Pieter, and all saying that you are wrong and must ignore Rudy, can you
believe?

All I have asked is for Rudy to be polite and stop to spam the NG, but
it make even worse.

Maybe is time to post in User Voice asking for Rudy be banned all
together.


> 
> Don't you think Rudy, maybe is better you just shout your mouth for a
> while? Make us a favor and let us discuss things seem you don't care
> enopugh, please.


Rudy put me on Bozo Bin and the others that was complaining, so
probably is what he will do with you too.

I did the same, Rudy and Nick are in bozo bin, after 5 days, the
newsgroup seems to be a good place, the messages here is now about 10%
from last week and 99% is interesting.


Cesar Romero
0
Cesar
2/16/2013 5:03:37 PM
> {quote:title=Cesar Romero wrote:}
> 
> I did the same, Rudy and Nick are in bozo bin, after 5 days, the
> newsgroup seems to be a good place, the messages here is now about 10%
> from last week and 99% is interesting.
{quote}

I have no idea what bozo bin is, sorry. In any case, I can't care less anything Rudy does with me. Im just claiming to EMB for this NG to be free of Rudy's noise.

Best regards.
0
german
2/16/2013 5:23:13 PM
> I'm happy we switched to Lazarus when we did, and based on
> FireMonkey's progress, I think we made the right decision, but I'm still
> looking for a better alternative.

Thanks for the detailed response - it's good to hear the LCL is at least workable on OS X.
0
Chris
2/16/2013 5:32:45 PM
german gentile wrote:

> I have no idea what bozo bin is, sorry. 

It's a slang term for your list of senders that you have hidden.

> Im just claiming to EMB for this NG
> to be free of Rudy's noise.

I think quite a few people feel that way (including myself).  I wonder
why he is behaving so strangely - he wasn't always as bad as this.

-- 
SteveT
0
Steve
2/16/2013 5:33:42 PM
german gentile wrote:

> I have no idea what bozo bin is, sorry. In any case, I can't care
> less anything Rudy does with me. Im just claiming to EMB for this NG
> to be free of Rudy's noise.

Bozo Bin is a Xananews feature to ignore any posts from an user.


Cesar Romero
0
Cesar
2/16/2013 5:35:06 PM
> {quote:title=Cesar Romero wrote:}
> Bozo Bin is a Xananews feature to ignore any posts from an user.
{quote}

Thanks Cesar, i remember now.

I stop using xananews 6 years ago, when i start use linux as my main OS. I remember tried to migrate xananews to lazarus without sucess. Maybe is possible with more time. Is a great newsreader, btw.

Best regards.-

Edited by: german gentile on Feb 18, 2013 9:49 AM
0
german
2/18/2013 3:49:17 PM
german gentile wrote:

> I stop using xananews 6 years ago, when i start use linux as my main
> OS. I remember tried to migrate xananews to lazarus without sucess.
> Maybe is possible with more time. Is a great newsreader, btw.

german,

I use to execute Xananew in my linux box with Wine, it works just fine.


Cesar Romero
0
Cesar
2/18/2013 5:59:45 PM
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