Delphi XE: Mac OS X and 64-bit ?

Hello,

I read the blog "Delphi XE Launch Paris" of Marco Cantu. Does the launched Delphi XE come with a Mac OS X and 64-bit compiler ?

A lot of our clients moved from XP to Mac. From our Mac clients we have hardly any OS questions. 
Only our Delphi clients are still working on Windows PC's. In July I installed our Delphi app on a Windows 7 server with 4 Virtual PC's. On an XP system it takes 1.5 hours to install. On this W7 system it took 7 hours. Most of the time I spent on waiting for Windows 7 (e.g. hanging Virtual PC's) and calling the hardware supplier/system manager frequently.

So we need to have our app running on other OS's as fast as possible so that our apps are not dependent on Windows anymore. 

Thanks,
Hubert Anemaat
0
Hubert
9/17/2010 10:33:22 AM
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> A lot of our clients moved from XP to Mac

Just for curiosity, what kind of software do you make? Personally, I know 
only 3 owners of Mac and they have it for home use only.
0
Ivan
9/17/2010 11:25:59 AM
> {quote:title=Hubert Anemaat wrote:}{quote}
> Hello,
> 
> I read the blog "Delphi XE Launch Paris" of Marco Cantu. Does the launched Delphi XE come with a Mac OS X and 64-bit compiler ?
> 
> A lot of our clients moved from XP to Mac. From our Mac clients we have hardly any OS questions. 
> Only our Delphi clients are still working on Windows PC's. In July I installed our Delphi app on a Windows 7 server with 4 Virtual PC's. On an XP system it takes 1.5 hours to install. On this W7 system it took 7 hours. Most of the time I spent on waiting for Windows 7 (e.g. hanging Virtual PC's) and calling the hardware supplier/system manager frequently.
> 
> So we need to have our app running on other OS's as fast as possible so that our apps are not dependent on Windows anymore. 
> 


Check out the Delphi XE hompage (http://www.embarcadero.com/products/delphi). The answer is no. There is no support for Mac OS X or x64 yet. It's planned for next year, I understand.

Nobody knows how easy it will be to port existing Delphi code to Mac OS X (or whether it will even be possible). I recommend a terminal server setup for your Delphi apps.
0
Andrew
9/17/2010 11:29:26 AM
> Just for curiosity, what kind of software do you make? Personally, I know 
> only 3 owners of Mac and they have it for home use only.

Software for Animal Boarding.
It is going fast now. 3 years ago I only knew a few people.  For users without any computer experience, Windows is too complicated.

Hubert
0
Hubert
9/17/2010 2:18:24 PM
Andrew Brehm wrote:
>> {quote:title=Hubert Anemaat wrote:}{quote}
>> Hello,
>>
>> I read the blog "Delphi XE Launch Paris" of Marco Cantu. Does the launched Delphi XE come with a Mac OS X and 64-bit compiler ?
>>
>> A lot of our clients moved from XP to Mac. From our Mac clients we have hardly any OS questions. 
>> Only our Delphi clients are still working on Windows PC's. In July I installed our Delphi app on a Windows 7 server with 4 Virtual PC's. On an XP system it takes 1.5 hours to install. On this W7 system it took 7 hours. Most of the time I spent on waiting for Windows 7 (e.g. hanging Virtual PC's) and calling the hardware supplier/system manager frequently.
>>
>> So we need to have our app running on other OS's as fast as possible so that our apps are not dependent on Windows anymore. 
>>
> 
> 
> Check out the Delphi XE hompage (http://www.embarcadero.com/products/delphi). The answer is no. There is no support for Mac OS X or x64 yet. It's planned for next year, I understand.
> 
> Nobody knows how easy it will be to port existing Delphi code to Mac OS X (or whether it will even be possible). I recommend a terminal server setup for your Delphi apps.

+1

I have several remote users who use Terminal Server (W2000 Adv. Server) 
over a VPN to log into our debt collections packages written in Delphi 
(5 & 7).  I can add a user or application pretty fast. There are very 
few problems, which in the worst case requires reboot of the Terminal 
server machine (usually not the main server).  Those problems are 
largely due to the archaic dBase files used in the server (no Active 
Directory either) where the files sometimes don't get closed properly 
when a user logs out, but those occurrences are fairly rare (about once 
every week or two).  Archaic though this setup may be, we have about 20 
local + remote users doing their worst with no complaints.  I'm just an 
old fashioned guy who has no time for dealing with trouble as I am the 
only technical person in the company.  Most of our users are on Windows 
2000, and a few on XP.  I live by the motto, 'If it ain't broke, don't 
fix it.'  Of course, that has its drawbacks if I ever need to get 
another job.
0
Mark
9/17/2010 2:39:48 PM
Hi Hubert,

> I read the blog "Delphi XE Launch Paris" of Marco Cantu. Does the launched Delphi XE come with a Mac OS X and 64-bit compiler ?

No, there's no Mac OS X or 64-bits support, depite what SD Times says ;-)

Did you miss the Delphi / RAD Studio XE launch here? Did you get a copy 
of my Delphi OplossingsCourant (in Dutch?).

> Thanks,
> Hubert Anemaat

Groetjes,
           Bob Swart

-- 
Bob Swart Training & Consultancy (eBob42.com) Forever Loyal to Delphi
Chairman Delphi Development Network (DDN) powered by SDN - www.sdn.nl
Embarcadero Technology Partner - Delphi & RAD Studio Reseller BeNeLux
http://twitter.com/eBob42 LinkedIn: http://nl.linkedin.com/in/drbob42
Delphi Win32 & .NET books on Lulu.com: http://stores.lulu.com/drbob42
Personal courseware + e-mail support http://www.ebob42.com/courseware
Blog: http://www.drbob42.com/blog - RSS: http://eBob42.com/weblog.xml
0
Bob
9/17/2010 3:17:06 PM
Hello Bob,

Yes, I did miss your Delphi XE launch in Helmond. My wife and I are often in the south of France nowadays to fill our lungs with fresh air.
Nick Hodges and Pawel Glowacki told me last year that a Mac OS X/Ubuntu release was expected Summer 2010.

I did not read your Delphi OplossingsCourant yet. I have downloaded it a few minutes ago.
Hmm... it is a pity there is no date available anymore when Delphi for Mac OS X will be released ! 

Except for one Windows PC's everything is replaced with Mac's. It is nearly silent now in our office: only one Windows workstation is making a lot of noise.
Since I use Mac OS X and Ubuntu I am convinced that these products are the future. The computer market is changing slowly: Google does not use Windows PC's anymore, HP has bought Palm OS for its Slate, etc...

Thanks for your information, Bob.

Hubert Anemaat



> {quote:title=Bob Swart wrote:}{quote}
> Hi Hubert,
> 
> > I read the blog "Delphi XE Launch Paris" of Marco Cantu. Does the launched Delphi XE come with a Mac OS X and 64-bit compiler ?
> 
> No, there's no Mac OS X or 64-bits support, depite what SD Times says ;-)
> 
> Did you miss the Delphi / RAD Studio XE launch here? Did you get a copy 
> of my Delphi OplossingsCourant (in Dutch?).
> 
> > Thanks,
> > Hubert Anemaat
> 
> Groetjes,
>            Bob Swart
> 
> -- 
> Bob Swart Training & Consultancy (eBob42.com) Forever Loyal to Delphi
> Chairman Delphi Development Network (DDN) powered by SDN - www.sdn.nl
> Embarcadero Technology Partner - Delphi & RAD Studio Reseller BeNeLux
> http://twitter.com/eBob42 LinkedIn: http://nl.linkedin.com/in/drbob42
> Delphi Win32 & .NET books on Lulu.com: http://stores.lulu.com/drbob42
> Personal courseware + e-mail support http://www.ebob42.com/courseware
> Blog: http://www.drbob42.com/blog - RSS: http://eBob42.com/weblog.xml
0
Hubert
9/20/2010 8:10:17 AM
Am 20.09.2010 10:10, schrieb Hubert Anemaat:
> Hello Bob,
> 
> Yes, I did miss your Delphi XE launch in Helmond. My wife and I are often in the south of France nowadays to fill our lungs with fresh air.
> Nick Hodges and Pawel Glowacki told me last year that a Mac OS X/Ubuntu release was expected Summer 2010.
> 
> I did not read your Delphi OplossingsCourant yet. I have downloaded it a few minutes ago.
> Hmm... it is a pity there is no date available anymore when Delphi for Mac OS X will be released ! 
> 
> Except for one Windows PC's everything is replaced with Mac's. It is nearly silent now in our office: only one Windows workstation is making a lot of noise.
> Since I use Mac OS X and Ubuntu I am convinced that these products are the future. The computer market is changing slowly: Google does not use Windows PC's anymore, HP has bought Palm OS for its Slate, etc...
> 

Have you already looked inside your PCs and analyzed what brands of fans
they use? That can make a huge difference!

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
9/20/2010 6:27:55 PM
> Have you already looked inside your PCs and analyzed what brands of fans
 > they use? That can make a huge difference!
 >

Or clean the PC internals. My PC made a lot of noise too but removing the
dust made a big difference.
Still, the Mac is more silent. ;)

Ton
0
Ton
9/20/2010 8:16:06 PM
On 2010-09-17 15:18:24 +0100, Hubert Anemaat said:

> Software for Animal Boarding.
> It is going fast now. 3 years ago I only knew a few people.  For users 
> without any computer experience, Windows is too complicated.

Just be aware that any "write once, multi-platform" solution is 
unlikely to give you the kind of app that Mac users will want to use.

There are lots of UI design considerations that, so far, have not been 
addressed in libraries like Qt or WxWidgets.

Take a look at using Delphi Prism, creating a business logic layer that 
can be totally separated from the UI, then you can choose to create 
both WinForms UIs and then, using Interface Builder, create a genuine 
Mac UI. The main design hint is to create a controller layer that fits 
with the Cocoa libraries via Mono and write adapters to fit WinForms.

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [TeamB]
0
Joanna
9/21/2010 12:24:19 PM
Joanna Carter wrote:

> On 2010-09-17 15:18:24 +0100, Hubert Anemaat said:
> 
> > Software for Animal Boarding.
> > It is going fast now. 3 years ago I only knew a few people.  For
> > users without any computer experience, Windows is too complicated.
> 
> Just be aware that any "write once, multi-platform" solution is 
> unlikely to give you the kind of app that Mac users will want to use.
> 
> There are lots of UI design considerations that, so far, have not
> been addressed in libraries like Qt or WxWidgets.
> 
> Take a look at using Delphi Prism, creating a business logic layer
> that can be totally separated from the UI, then you can choose to
> create both WinForms UIs and then, using Interface Builder, create a
> genuine Mac UI. The main design hint is to create a controller layer
> that fits with the Cocoa libraries via Mono and write adapters to fit
> WinForms.
> 
> Joanna

Yeah that might be true for music player number XX or image application
YY. But someone who wants to use your software, because it is good, is
not going to whine about oooooooooooooooooooooo it does not look native
on macintosh. I do agree you have to separate logic/UI/database. But
honestly if someone is going to whine about how it does not look native
on Macintosh ... Then you are better off without that customer.

I am not going to talk percentages. But where I am currently
freelancing they have had 2 requests for Macintosh in 4 years. This is
specialised software for people who have a serious income anyway. But
they will never be able to buy a macintosh, since they are forced to
use certain things that only run under Wintendo. And sorry to say, but
which large company is going to kick out all there windows machines for
a macintosh ... Not now, in the near future ... almost 0 chance. In
around 20 years, who knows

Private users might want a mac for design. But then you are back at
image application YY. If you make shareware perhaps you need to look at
it. But look at Total commander ... I honestly do not like it. But
everybody here in the company is using it. Let us say it would be
ported to macintosh. Do you honestly think the people who use
totalcommander will give a crap about it is a non standard MacUI ?
0
Kristof
9/21/2010 12:55:47 PM
Am 20.09.2010 22:16, schrieb Ton Soontiens:
>> Have you already looked inside your PCs and analyzed what brands of fans
>  > they use? That can make a huge difference!
>  >
> 
> Or clean the PC internals. My PC made a lot of noise too but removing the
> dust made a big difference.
> Still, the Mac is more silent. ;)
> 

Still no actual comparison done on the fans used for both, what a pity! ;-)

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
9/21/2010 6:14:30 PM
On 2010-09-17 13:25:59 +0200, Ivan Rakyta said:

>> 
>> A lot of our clients moved from XP to Mac
> 
> Just for curiosity, what kind of software do you make? Personally, I 
> know only 3 owners of Mac and they have it for home use only.

Funny, i hardly know anybody who has *not* switched to the Mac. seriously.
0
marc
9/21/2010 7:03:46 PM
marc hoffman wrote:

> Funny, i hardly know anybody who has not switched to the Mac.
> seriously.

The critical question is: how many of those who have switched to the
Mac *only* use it for Mac software? I don't know *anyone* who has
switched to a Mac who *only* uses it for Mac software. Everyone I know
also installs and uses a Windows OS on it.

So, as long as MS gets their license fee, I'm quite sure they don't
care if that license is running on a "MacWinTel" or a "WinTel" machine.
:)

-- 
John Kaster http://blogs.embarcadero.com/johnk
Embarcadero Developer Network: http://edn.embarcadero.com
Features and bugs: http://qc.embarcadero.com
Got source?  http://cc.embarcadero.com
0
John
9/21/2010 7:10:57 PM
> {quote:title=John Kaster wrote:}{quote}
> marc hoffman wrote:
> 
> > Funny, i hardly know anybody who has not switched to the Mac.
> > seriously.
> 
> The critical question is: how many of those who have switched to the
> Mac *only* use it for Mac software? I don't know *anyone* who has
> switched to a Mac who *only* uses it for Mac software. Everyone I know
> also installs and uses a Windows OS on it.
> 
> So, as long as MS gets their license fee, I'm quite sure they don't
> care if that license is running on a "MacWinTel" or a "WinTel" machine.
> :)

That wasn't Microsoft's attitude towards OS/2 back in the day. And OS/2 usually came with a Windows licence and users mainly ran Windows programs. In fact many, myself included,  thought that opening the Mac to Windows programs would result in a fate similar to OS/2's.

I also don't think the point is using *only* Mac software. The point is what every-day software one uses. I am totally hooked on iTunes, QuickTime Player, OmniWeb, OmniGraffle and other Mac software.
0
Andrew
9/21/2010 7:22:13 PM
"marc hoffman" <mh@spamobjects.com> wrote in message 
news:288198@forums.embarcadero.com...
> Funny, i hardly know anybody who has *not* switched to the Mac. seriously.

That's must be pretty focused group of friends you have ;-)

But aside from the general public, I doubt you could say that about business 
you come into contact with - I mean sizable ones.
0
Gord
9/21/2010 7:34:16 PM
On 2010-09-21 15:10:57 -0400, John Kaster <jkaster@embarcadero.com> said:

> The critical question is: how many of those who have switched to the
> Mac *only* use it for Mac software? I don't know *anyone* who has
> switched to a Mac who *only* uses it for Mac software. Everyone I know
> also installs and uses a Windows OS on it.

The only people I know doing this are those that, like myself, still 
develop Windows software.  If I didn't develop software for Windows, I 
would have no use for Windows.

When I made the switch to Mac over a year ago, I was able to easily 
replace every one of my favourite Win apps with an OSX equivalent.  
Other than a newsreader with the capability of XanaNews, all of my OSX 
apps are as good as (usually better) than their Windows counterparts.

For me, a true testament to just how well OSX works is that since I 
bought an iMac for my wife, I've *never* had to fix it, upgrade it, 
find "missing" files, find out why it crashed, or answer any questions 
on how to use it.  She was able to make the transition to OSX with 
barely a 20 minute introduction by me. -- And I'm sure she just ignored 
me anyway. :)

--
Kevin Powick
0
Kevin
9/21/2010 7:46:13 PM
On 21.09.2010 21:22, Andrew Brehm wrote:

>
> That wasn't Microsoft's attitude towards OS/2 back in the day. And OS/2 usually came with a Windows licence and users mainly ran Windows programs. In fact many, myself included,  thought that opening the Mac to Windows programs would result in a fate similar to OS/2's.
>
> I also don't think the point is using *only* Mac software. The point is what every-day software one uses. I am totally hooked on iTunes, QuickTime Player, OmniWeb, OmniGraffle and other Mac software.


I think the fun really start when $soft realize that people use Wine :-)
0
Alf
9/21/2010 8:30:24 PM
John Kaster wrote:

> The critical question is: how many of those who have switched to the
> Mac only use it for Mac software? I don't know anyone who has
> switched to a Mac who only uses it for Mac software.

I'm certainly firmly in that camp. While we no longer have need for
Windows on our personal machine (iMac), my work machine (Macbook Pro)
relies heavily on Windows.

In fact, this post is an example of this. Due to not being able to find
a Mac based newsreader that meets my modest needs*, these are currently
met by running XanaNews in a Windows VM.


*All I ask is a way to easily navigate to replies to my posts, and a
way to see that there are replies in the first place (both when the UI
is visible, and when it is minimized).

-- 
Cheers,
David Clegg
dclegg@gmail.com
http://cc.embarcadero.com/Author/72299

QualityCentral. The best way to bug Embarcadero about bugs.
http://qc.embarcadero.com
0
David
9/21/2010 8:52:17 PM
On 2010-09-21 21:10:57 +0200, John Kaster said:

> marc hoffman wrote:
> 
>> Funny, i hardly know anybody who has not switched to the Mac.
>> seriously.
> 
> The critical question is: how many of those who have switched to the
> Mac *only* use it for Mac software? I don't know *anyone* who has
> switched to a Mac who *only* uses it for Mac software. Everyone I know
> also installs and uses a Windows OS on it.
> 
> So, as long as MS gets their license fee, I'm quite sure they don't
> care if that license is running on a "MacWinTel" or a "WinTel" machine.
> :)

sorry, didn't realize this thread was about whether Microsoft cares, or 
gets license money...
0
marc
9/21/2010 9:09:12 PM
Kevin,

>> The critical question is: how many of those who have switched to the
>> Mac *only* use it for Mac software? I don't know *anyone* who has
>> switched to a Mac who *only* uses it for Mac software. Everyone I know
>> also installs and uses a Windows OS on it.
> 
> The only people I know doing this are those that, like myself, still
> develop Windows software.  If I didn't develop software for Windows, I
> would have no use for Windows.

indeed. there's literally two things i un in my Windows VM:

(a) Visual Studio
(b) an internal admin tool for our website & customers db that i have 
not (fully) ported to native Mac yet

> When I made the switch to Mac over a year ago, I was able to easily
> replace every one of my favourite Win apps with an OSX equivalent.

i'd go a step further and say that for every task i have fund a tool 
that is superior in quality, design and comfort of use than what's 
available on windows...

> Other than a newsreader with the capability of XanaNews, all of my OSX
> apps are as good as (usually better) than their Windows counterparts.

....and that includes news readers. Unison 2 is not perfect. but then, 
neither is any windows news reader i ever used, including OE and 
Thunderbird. (and i never could stand XanaNews, personally. looks too 
much like it was beaten with an ugly stick, and i found it very awkward 
to use, when i tried ;)
0
marc
9/21/2010 9:15:50 PM
Gord,

> That's must be pretty focused group of friends you have ;-)

not really, no.
0
marc
9/21/2010 9:17:09 PM
marc hoffman wrote:

> sorry, didn't realize this thread was about whether Microsoft cares,
> or gets license money...

It's not. It's a side observation. The core of the point is that "Mac
adoption" is not an exclusive stat for people using the Intel-based
Macs.

-- 
John Kaster http://blogs.embarcadero.com/johnk
Embarcadero Developer Network: http://edn.embarcadero.com
Features and bugs: http://qc.embarcadero.com
Got source?  http://cc.embarcadero.com
0
John
9/21/2010 9:18:09 PM
>> Just for curiosity, what kind of software do you make? Personally, I
>> know only 3 owners of Mac and they have it for home use only.
>
> Funny, i hardly know anybody who has *not* switched to the Mac. seriously.

Perhaps because our clients are oil and gas plants and not home users, I 
don't meet any. But that was exactly why I asked OP my first question. I 
would be surprised to see Mac applications for industry.
Running web browser, video or music player on Mac does not count as serious 
use for me.
0
Ivan
9/21/2010 9:30:09 PM
On 9/21/2010 2:03 PM, marc hoffman wrote:
> On 2010-09-17 13:25:59 +0200, Ivan Rakyta said:
>
>>>
>>> A lot of our clients moved from XP to Mac
>>
>> Just for curiosity, what kind of software do you make? Personally, I
>> know only 3 owners of Mac and they have it for home use only.
>
> Funny, i hardly know anybody who has *not* switched to the Mac. seriously.

And one for the other side....I do not personally know of a single 
person that has switched.  There probably have been some, but it's never 
come up in conversation, and I never see a Mac.  I know people use them, 
but I'm at a loss as to where this is.  I think I know one person that 
uses a Mac.  She has never owned a PC, mainly because her lab back in 
college used Macs, and she just stuck with that.  Since I haven't seen 
her computer in 3+ years, I can't be sure she still uses Mac, but it's 
probably a safe bet.  Other than her, no one I know sees the point of a 
Mac, or any benefits to switching.  For us, PCs and Windows just work - 
I always wonder at the reports from Mac fans that Windows is so awful 
and always failing, because my experience is very different.

Now iPod and iPhone, those seem to have taken over and I see them 
everywhere.

-- 
Jon Purvis
Wildlife Data Analyst
Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
Austin, TX
0
Jon
9/21/2010 9:40:42 PM
>> That's must be pretty focused group of friends you have ;-)
>
> not really, no.

Well, they are at the very least a statistically anomalous group ;-)

Eric
0
Eric
9/22/2010 6:26:57 AM
> {quote:title=Eric Grange wrote:}{quote}
> >> That's must be pretty focused group of friends you have ;-)
> >
> > not really, no.
> 
> Well, they are at the very least a statistically anomalous group ;-)

Heck, I know some people who don't even own or use a computer.
--
Rick Carter
Cincinnati, OH
0
Rick
9/22/2010 6:44:59 AM
Rick Carter wrote:

> Heck, I know some people who don't even own or use a computer.

Can I have their email addresses?  That's way cool and I'd like to tell
'em that.  :^)

-- 
Cheers,
Van

"Half of what I say is meaningless..." - John Lennon
"Your job is to figure out which half." - Van Swofford
0
Van
9/22/2010 1:42:32 PM
> {quote:title=Van Swofford wrote:}{quote}
> Rick Carter wrote:
> 
> > Heck, I know some people who don't even own or use a computer.
> 
> Can I have their email addresses?  That's way cool and I'd like to tell
> 'em that.  :^)

Errror: Interface mismatch!  ;)

Can you believe it?  To talk to these people, you either have to phone them (if they have a phone and you know the number; many do), send them "snail mail," or wait until you see them for a <gasp> face-to-face conversation!  Hard to believe that people today can be living such primitive lifestyles!  ;)
--
Rick Carter
Cincinnati, OH
0
Rick
9/23/2010 3:22:45 AM
Rick Carter wrote:

> Can you believe it?  To talk to these people, you either have to
> phone them (if they have a phone and you know the number; many do),
> send them "snail mail," or wait until you see them for a <gasp>
> face-to-face conversation!  Hard to believe that people today can be
> living such primitive lifestyles!  ;)

I can understand it.  My sister has no email or cell phone.  I have to
mail her photos & stuff.  Painful!  But what's worse is that some of my
customers are floating on the edge.  They'll send me an email with
their phone number and ask me to call them.  Then they ask me a simple
question that they could have asked in the email, and I then have to
say "I'll research that and get back to you", after which I send them a
detailed email with the answers that they need.  Makes me wanna get rid
of the phone altogether....

-- 
Cheers,
Van

"Half of what I say is meaningless..." - John Lennon
"Your job is to figure out which half." - Van Swofford
0
Van
9/23/2010 4:13:12 PM
On 2010-09-21 23:18:09 +0200, John Kaster said:

> marc hoffman wrote:
> 
>> sorry, didn't realize this thread was about whether Microsoft cares,
>> or gets license money...
> 
> It's not. It's a side observation. The core of the point is that "Mac
> adoption" is not an exclusive stat for people using the Intel-based
> Macs.

fair enough. let me clarify my original statement by saying that i 
hardly anyone who has not switched to the Mac *and* is using it as a a 
Mac (not as a too-nice machine to run Windows on).
0
marc
9/23/2010 5:20:38 PM
On 2010-09-22 08:44:59 +0200, Rick Carter said:

>> 
>> {quote:title=Eric Grange wrote:}{quote}
>>>> That's must be pretty focused group of friends you have ;-)
>>> 
>>> not really, no.
>> 
>> Well, they are at the very least a statistically anomalous group ;-)
> 
> Heck, I know some people who don't even own or use a computer.

i certianly do too, yes. but of those who do use, most jave swicthed to 
the Mac. (and most of those (few) who have not, are planning to).
0
marc
9/23/2010 5:21:30 PM
On 23.09.2010 18:13, Van Swofford wrote:

> say "I'll research that and get back to you", after which I send them a
> detailed email with the answers that they need.  Makes me wanna get rid
> of the phone altogether....
>

And maybe then realize that they don't understand how to configure the 
mail client to contact the IMAP or POP3 server, so you have to tell them 
on the phone on how to set it up, only to realize next time you send an 
email, that they have deleted the setup to spare space on disk :-)

Or uninstalled the mail client since they have read your email and don't 
need the mail client anymore.

(Reminds me about early time of using text editors, back in Word Perfect 
time where I got a very angry comment from a scientist colleague who was 
very angry at me having persuaded him and others to invest money in a 
computer since there was completely no benefit in using Word Perfect as 
a typewriter compared to a manual one.

It turned out that he had neglected my point during a lesson about 
pressing F7 and storing the text he had entered. He was typing his 
manus, printed it out and stopped the computer, did read the manus and 
made corrections in red and when finished, he did type the whole manus 
once more, and then introducing new typing errors which was then 
corrected with red pencil, typed in again, but once again made typing 
errors, so there was absolutely any benefits whatsoever.

Well, we learned him once again to press F7, give the manuscript a name 
and learned him to open it again after reading through the scientific 
paper and now correct only things needed to be handled.

It was a big AHA moment for him and noone complained again about misuse 
of research fundings :-)
0
Alf
9/23/2010 7:03:45 PM
On 23.09.2010 19:21, marc hoffman wrote:
> On 2010-09-22 08:44:59 +0200, Rick Carter said:
>
>>>
>>> {quote:title=Eric Grange wrote:}{quote}
>>>>> That's must be pretty focused group of friends you have ;-)
>>>>
>>>> not really, no.
>>>
>>> Well, they are at the very least a statistically anomalous group ;-)
>>
>> Heck, I know some people who don't even own or use a computer.
>
> i certianly do too, yes. but of those who do use, most jave swicthed to
> the Mac. (and most of those (few) who have not, are planning to).

Here we have about 700 Windows computer now converting to win 7 and btw. 
50 and 100 Mac, the proportion Mac is on decline (because IT support 
don't support the Mac's except one guy)
0
Alf
9/23/2010 7:06:11 PM
marc hoffman wrote:

> On 2010-09-22 08:44:59 +0200, Rick Carter said:
> 
> >> 
> >> {quote:title=Eric Grange wrote:}{quote}
> >>>> That's must be pretty focused group of friends you have ;-)
> >>> 
> >>> not really, no.
> >> 
> >> Well, they are at the very least a statistically anomalous group
> ;-)
> > 
> > Heck, I know some people who don't even own or use a computer.
> 
> i certianly do too, yes. but of those who do use, most jave swicthed
> to the Mac. (and most of those (few) who have not, are planning to).

Mac keyboard doesn't seem very reliable, though.

Kind regards,
D.
0
Don
9/23/2010 7:31:45 PM
marc hoffman wrote:

> let me clarify my original statement by saying that i 
> hardly anyone who has not switched to the Mac and is using it as a a 
> Mac

Heh. I'm not sure this was a clarification. :)

Do you mean "not switched to the Mac and is using it as a Windows
machine"?

-- 
John Kaster http://blogs.embarcadero.com/johnk
Embarcadero Developer Network: http://edn.embarcadero.com
Features and bugs: http://qc.embarcadero.com
Got source?  http://cc.embarcadero.com
0
John
9/23/2010 9:42:22 PM
> Mac keyboard doesn't seem very reliable, though.

yes, this joke never gets old.
0
marc
9/23/2010 11:47:26 PM
> {quote:title=John Kaster wrote:}{quote}
> marc hoffman wrote:
> 
> > Funny, i hardly know anybody who has not switched to the Mac.
> > seriously.
> 
> The critical question is: how many of those who have switched to the
> Mac *only* use it for Mac software? I don't know *anyone* who has
> switched to a Mac who *only* uses it for Mac software. Everyone I know
> also installs and uses a Windows OS on it.
> 

I assume you're talking about programmers. I don't see that with non-programmers at all. In fact, out of maybe a dozen Mac users that I can think of off the top of my head, I believe that only one also has a Windows machine. And nobody has Windows on their Mac. These are teachers, carpenter, professors, farmer, etc.

I used to run Virtual PC on my Cube, mostly just out of curiosity, but when I upgraded to a MacBook I found that I no longer had any interest in running Windows there.

Where I'm seeing inroads into the Windows-only workplace is not with OS X machines but iOS machines like the iPad. That's why Joanna's advice above about creating a business layer that knows absolutely nothing about the UI or the target machine is so important. If you do it right you might even be able to use some of this code not only on OS X but on iOS as well.

Thanks.

-Phil
0
Phil
9/27/2010 9:21:20 PM
Phil Hess wrote:

> I assume you're talking about programmers.

Most of the PC users I know also do some type of software development.
However, the "business users" with Macs I know also have a Windows OS
install on them too, so they can continue to do business with their
clients - even for sole proprietorships.

-- 
John Kaster http://blogs.embarcadero.com/johnk
Embarcadero Developer Network: http://edn.embarcadero.com
Features and bugs: http://qc.embarcadero.com
Got source?  http://cc.embarcadero.com
0
John
9/27/2010 10:31:04 PM
On 2010-09-28 00:31:04 +0200, John Kaster said:

> Most of the PC users I know also do some type of software development.
> However, the "business users" with Macs I know also have a Windows OS
> install on them too, so they can continue to do business with their
> clients - even for sole proprietorships.

If it weren't for having to make a living out of designing and writing 
Windows software, I have absolutely no use for the Windows OS. 
Everything I need is available under OS X.

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [TeamB]
0
Joanna
9/29/2010 1:40:07 PM
> I don't know *anyone* who has
> switched to a Mac who *only* uses it for Mac software. Everyone I know
> also installs and uses a Windows OS on it.
>

I only use Windows for Delphi on my Mac. 

The other software is Mac software: Address Book, Calendar, Browser, Mail, Music, Video Editing, Photo Library and Editing, DVD Burning, Web Design, Automatic Backup. And a user does not have to buy and install this software in contrast to Windows. Only OpenOffice.org or iWork has to be installed.

The graphics is magnificent and the software is fast. I do not want to use the Windows equivalent software on a Windows 
virtual PC. It is a pity that I still have to work with Delphi on an old fashioned Windows style virtual PC. With Windows 7 I have the same feeling as 20 years ago when I had to work on an MS-DOS PC when I was used to Solaris.

So, I am waiting for the Delphi Mac OS X version.

> > Funny, i hardly know anybody who has not switched to the Mac.
> > seriously.

In my environment too, except for some people, who I expect that they have some Microsoft shares. 
It is going fast now. Mac OS X has a better papers for the future then Windows 7.

Hubert Anemaat
0
Hubert
11/17/2010 7:27:01 PM
> {quote:title=Hubert Anemaat wrote:}{quote}
> Hello Bob,
> 
> Yes, I did miss your Delphi XE launch in Helmond. My wife and I are often in the south of France nowadays to fill our lungs with fresh air.
> Nick Hodges and Pawel Glowacki told me last year that a Mac OS X/Ubuntu release was expected Summer 2010.
> 
> I did not read your Delphi OplossingsCourant yet. I have downloaded it a few minutes ago.
> Hmm... it is a pity there is no date available anymore when Delphi for Mac OS X will be released ! 
> 
> Except for one Windows PC's everything is replaced with Mac's. It is nearly silent now in our office: only one Windows workstation is making a lot of noise.
> Since I use Mac OS X and Ubuntu I am convinced that these products are the future. The computer market is changing slowly: Google does not use Windows PC's anymore, HP has bought Palm OS for its Slate, etc...
> 
> Thanks for your information, Bob.
> 
> Hubert Anemaat
> 
> 
> 
> > {quote:title=Bob Swart wrote:}{quote}
> > Hi Hubert,
> > 
> > > I read the blog "Delphi XE Launch Paris" of Marco Cantu. Does the launched Delphi XE come with a Mac OS X and 64-bit compiler ?
> > 
> > No, there's no Mac OS X or 64-bits support, depite what SD Times says ;-)
> > 
> > Did you miss the Delphi / RAD Studio XE launch here? Did you get a copy 
> > of my Delphi OplossingsCourant (in Dutch?).
> > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > Hubert Anemaat
> > 
> > Groetjes,
> >            Bob Swart
> > 
> > -- 
> > Bob Swart Training & Consultancy (eBob42.com) Forever Loyal to Delphi
> > Chairman Delphi Development Network (DDN) powered by SDN - www.sdn.nl
> > Embarcadero Technology Partner - Delphi & RAD Studio Reseller BeNeLux
> > http://twitter.com/eBob42 LinkedIn: http://nl.linkedin.com/in/drbob42
> > Delphi Win32 & .NET books on Lulu.com: http://stores.lulu.com/drbob42
> > Personal courseware + e-mail support http://www.ebob42.com/courseware
> > Blog: http://www.drbob42.com/blog - RSS: http://eBob42.com/weblog.xml

You know what's weird?  I recently changed out a hard drive on my 2009 iMac.  When I put it back together, the fan was going like crazy.  I said to myself, "wow, never heard that before",   I re-installed OS X and got everything back from Time Machine.  Meanwhile the fans were really noisy.   I thought maybe the new drive was running hotter than the old one.   Anyway, after everything was installed, got all the updates,  I did a search on the web about the fan on the iMac.  Turns out, the temperature sens
or for the screen was not connected to the motherboard, and since it couldn't get a reading, it just left the fan on.   After I put it back one...  sweet, no more noise.
0
Phillip
11/18/2010 12:54:06 AM
Hubert,

> The other software is Mac software: Address Book, Calendar, Browser, 
> Mail, Music, Video Editing, Photo Library and Editing, DVD Burning, Web 
> Design, Automatic Backup. And a user does not have to buy and install 
> this software in contrast to Windows. Only OpenOffice.org or iWork has 
> to be installed.
> 
> The graphics is magnificent and the software is fast. I do not want to 
> use the Windows equivalent software on a Windows
> virtual PC. It is a pity that I still have to work with Delphi on an 
> old fashioned Windows style virtual PC. With Windows 7 I have the same 
> feeling as 20 years ago when I had to work on an MS-DOS PC when I was 
> used to Solaris.

amen.

> So, I am waiting for the Delphi Mac OS X version.

unfortunately, that won't help you, as the IDE will still run on 
Windows, it will merely allow you to develop *for* Mac OS X, not *on*. 
I suggest looking at Xcode - it takes some getting over the culture 
shock, but then it is a pure joy to use and work with, and all native 
Mac ;)

alternatively, Delphi Prism allows tou to work natively on the Mac, as 
well, with MonoDevelop...

marc
0
marc
11/18/2010 2:04:57 PM
Am 17.11.2010 20:27, schrieb Hubert Anemaat:
>> I don't know *anyone* who has
>> switched to a Mac who *only* uses it for Mac software. Everyone I know
>> also installs and uses a Windows OS on it.
>>
> 
> I only use Windows for Delphi on my Mac. 
> 
> The other software is Mac software: Address Book, Calendar, Browser, Mail, Music, Video Editing, Photo Library and Editing, DVD Burning, Web Design, Automatic Backup. And a user does not have to buy and install this software in contrast to Windows. Only OpenOffice.org or iWork has to be installed.
> 

Hm, if MacOS ships all of this out of the box, they surely hinder
competing providers of such software like MS did with IE?
Or why didn't yet complain about that on a court?

(what I mean is: the only difference between this and the MS browser and
media player cases is that MAC hasn't yet the same market share, but a
similiar attitude obviously...)

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
11/18/2010 7:01:47 PM
> 
> (what I mean is: the only difference between this and the MS browser and
> media player cases is that MAC hasn't yet the same market share, but a
> similiar attitude obviously...)

who knew. market share does matters when considering abuse of a de 
facto monopoly. huh, who would have thunk!
0
marc
11/18/2010 11:10:34 PM
> (what I mean is: the only difference between this and the MS browser and
> media player cases is that MAC hasn't yet the same market share, but a
> similiar attitude obviously...)

But I hope that Embarcadero will launch a MacDelphi product before the market share of the Macs is passing the 50%.

> Similar attitude
The prices are different: Microsoft's products are overpriced. Upgrade to Windows 7 € 275 (to Mac OS X 10.6 is € 29,--), MS Office € 499 (iWork is € 79) 

Hubert
0
Hubert
11/19/2010 11:29:06 PM
On 2010-11-18 23:10:34 +0000, marc hoffman said:

> who knew. market share does matters when considering abuse of a de
> facto monopoly. huh, who would have thunk!

I, personally, don't feel that shipping software, preinstalled, is an 
abuse of monopoly, it is simply giving/bundling software that folks 
would otherwise have to obtain separately.

Now, it may be that, because IE was such a rubbish browser that got up 
people's noses. Safari seems, now, to be a reasonable browser but I 
personally prefer Firefox anyway, regardless of the platform.

Just out of interest, here is a list of all the software that comes as 
a standard part of the OS X installation :

Sticky Notes (post-it style notes app)
Preview (view and manipulate PDF files)
Automator (scripting tool)
Calculator (including programming and scientific)
Address Book (links to Mail and iCal, as well as other apps)
Chess
Dashboard (widgets)
Dictionary
Front Row (full screen, remote controllable, media player)
Garage Band (music authoring)
iCal (links to Address Book and iCal, as well as other apps)
iChat (text, audio and video chatting; remote desktop, file and picture 
sharing)
iDVD (DVD authoring)
iMovie (video editing)
iPhoto (photo library and basic editing)
iSync (device synchronisation for iPhone, iPod, etc)
iTunes
iWeb (web site authoring)
DVD Player
Mail
Photo Booth (does what it says on the tin, but with video as well)
QuickTime Player
Safari
TextEdit
Time Machine (continuous backup)
Image Transfer
Capture (screenshot capture)
Exposé (sophisticated version of Program Manager)
Screen Sharing
Spaces (multiple desktops)

… and that doesn't include all the utilities. Oh, and the developer 
tools are free as well.

What is more, as others have pointed out, the OS versions and 
application suites, like iWork and iLife, tend to be a lot cheaper than 
their MS counterparts.

As an aside, I used to do all my desktop publishing in Adobe InDesign, 
which is quite expensive… until I discovered that Pages, from the iWork 
suite, did everything I needed at a fraction of the price :-)

As another aside, I had to buy Adobe Acrobat for Windows to create and 
manipulate PDF files, something I no longer use because I can do 
everything I need with what OS X provides as standard.

And they say that Macs are too expensive??

Oops, my Mac fangirl slip is starting to show ;-)

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [TeamB]
0
Joanna
11/20/2010 10:08:48 AM
On 2010-11-20 11:08:48 +0100, Joanna Carter said:

> On 2010-11-18 23:10:34 +0000, marc hoffman said:
> 
>> who knew. market share does matters when considering abuse of a de
>> facto monopoly. huh, who would have thunk!
> 
> I, personally, don't feel that shipping software, preinstalled, is an
> abuse of monopoly, it is simply giving/bundling software that folks
> would otherwise have to obtain separately.

i agree. still the complain(s) against Microsoft (agree with them or 
not) were all about suposed monopoly abuse, so similar complaints about 
Mac OS X, Linux, or any other OS would be double-moot. which is all i 
meant to say.
0
marc
11/20/2010 12:51:40 PM
On 20.11.2010 00:29, Hubert Anemaat wrote:
>> (what I mean is: the only difference between this and the MS browser and
>> media player cases is that MAC hasn't yet the same market share, but a
>> similiar attitude obviously...)
>
> But I hope that Embarcadero will launch a MacDelphi product before the market share of the Macs is passing the 50%.
>
>> Similar attitude
> The prices are different: Microsoft's products are overpriced. Upgrade to Windows 7 € 275 (to Mac OS X 10.6 is € 29,--), MS Office € 499 (iWork is € 79)
>
> Hubert

On the other side, Mac computers are likely heavily overprized, so they 
have to give you cheap upgrades if not loosing all shares of market :-)
0
Alf
11/20/2010 2:14:28 PM
On 20/11/2010 3:38 PM, Joanna Carter wrote:

>
> Oops, my Mac fangirl slip is starting to show ;-)
>
Don't feel shy about that. It generally happens when one is over joyed. 
Just enjoy your stay with Mac.
0
Yogi
11/20/2010 2:38:08 PM
Am 20.11.2010 00:29, schrieb Hubert Anemaat:
>> (what I mean is: the only difference between this and the MS browser and
>> media player cases is that MAC hasn't yet the same market share, but a
>> similiar attitude obviously...)
> 
> But I hope that Embarcadero will launch a MacDelphi product before the market share of the Macs is passing the 50%.
> 
>> Similar attitude
> The prices are different: Microsoft's products are overpriced. Upgrade to Windows 7 € 275 (to Mac OS X 10.6 is € 29,--), MS Office € 499 (iWork is € 79) 
> 
> Hubert

Hello,

your figures are a bit unclear. To which Win 7 and office edition?
Because you can buy the home versions of office for 100 € or so if I'm
not mistaken.

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
11/20/2010 5:06:14 PM
Alf Christophersen wrote:

> On the other side, Mac computers are likely heavily overprized, so
> they have to give you cheap upgrades if not loosing all shares of
> market :-)

Actually, Macs are *properly* priced. It is Windows PCs that are
severely discounted, which is necessary due to the horible software you
must run on them. :-o
0
Richard
11/20/2010 6:34:59 PM
On 2010-11-20 15:14:28 +0100, Alf Christophersen said:

> On 20.11.2010 00:29, Hubert Anemaat wrote:
>>> (what I mean is: the only difference between this and the MS browser and
>>> media player cases is that MAC hasn't yet the same market share, but a
>>> similiar attitude obviously...)
>> 
>> But I hope that Embarcadero will launch a MacDelphi product before the 
>> market share of the Macs is passing the 50%.
>> 
>>> Similar attitude
>> The prices are different: Microsoft's products are overpriced. Upgrade 
>> to Windows 7 € 275 (to Mac OS X 10.6 is € 29,--), MS Office € 499 
>> (iWork is € 79)
>> 
>> Hubert
> 
> On the other side, Mac computers are likely heavily overprized, so they
> have to give you cheap upgrades if not loosing all shares of market :-)

1990 called and wants it's argument back. ;)
0
marc
11/20/2010 8:52:42 PM
> On the other side, Mac computers are likely heavily overprized, so they 
> have to give you cheap upgrades 

Overprized ?

I bought a MacBook 2 years ago. It was cheaper than my HP Notebook of 2005. 
A few weeks ago, I got an e-mail from HP: they have a new HP Elitebook, price € 4.768 excl. VAT.
You can work half an hour on battery power with W7, not enough to travel from Amsterdam to New York.
If you want a good quality PC, an HP Z400 without monitor, it is also € 1.699 excl. VAT. iMac's are cheaper and with a monitor.

But you get a  W7 with fat borders that occupies nearly the whole screen. There is hardly any space left in the clientwindow to put some controls on it. A user is totally distracted by all these non-informational transparant graphics. 

Hubert
0
Hubert
11/22/2010 9:26:51 PM
Hello Markus,

> Because you can buy the home versions of office for 100 € or so if I'm
> not mistaken.
That is the price for students, not for businesses, not even small home businesses.

Hubert
0
Hubert
11/22/2010 9:29:54 PM
On 22.11.2010 22:26, Hubert Anemaat wrote:
>> On the other side, Mac computers are likely heavily overprized, so they
>> have to give you cheap upgrades
>
> Overprized ?
>
> I bought a MacBook 2 years ago. It was cheaper than my HP Notebook of 2005.
> A few weeks ago, I got an e-mail from HP: they have a new HP Elitebook, price € 4.768 excl. VAT.
> You can work half an hour on battery power with W7, not enough to travel from Amsterdam to New York.
> If you want a good quality PC, an HP Z400 without monitor, it is also € 1.699 excl. VAT. iMac's are cheaper and with a monitor.
>
> But you get a  W7 with fat borders that occupies nearly the whole screen. There is hardly any space left in the clientwindow to put some controls on it. A user is totally distracted by all these non-informational transparant graphics.
>
> Hubert

Why buy HP ?? HP is just like Mac. A proprietary black box where no 
parts could be exchanged without bying their own exchange components at 
an outrageous prize. Same more or less with DELL.

Why not buy some streetware computer made of components that could be 
bought anywhere at a price of a dime ?

I get if I would like Taiwan computers at a price of the same figures, 
in NOK. That is, at a 1/9 of that price :-)

The most expensive laptop I found at Multicom, http://www.multicom.no, a 
local vendor here, is at 17000 NOK, that is about 2000 €.

http://www.multicom.no/SystemConfigurator.aspx?q=st%3a10585814%3bc%3a100560%3bfl%3a0

It may be equipted with 3 harddisks and two graphic cards if you like 
(but then you reach the price you mention for that HP computer)
0
Alf
11/22/2010 9:54:20 PM
On 22.11.2010 22:29, Hubert Anemaat wrote:
> Hello Markus,
>
>> Because you can buy the home versions of office for 100 € or so if I'm
>> not mistaken.
> That is the price for students, not for businesses, not even small home businesses.
>
> Hubert

At least in Norway it is also for home use.

But as you say, probably not for home business
0
Alf
11/22/2010 9:55:41 PM
On 2010-11-22 21:26:51 +0000, Hubert Anemaat said:

> I bought a MacBook 2 years ago. It was cheaper than my HP Notebook of 2005.
> A few weeks ago, I got an e-mail from HP: they have a new HP Elitebook, 
> price € 4.768 excl. VAT.

Yes, where I am working, there is someone who is always saying how 
foolish I am to spend so much money on a Macbook. But they are HP 
partners, so I went to the HP site and couldn't match *the same spec* 
for a better price.

Yes, I could buy a lesser spec of machine but, apart from all the 
extra, full version, software you get with a Mac, the other factors in 
my choice include the weight, slim size and long battery life.

> You can work half an hour on battery power with W7, not enough to 
> travel from Amsterdam to New York.

I am just about to take delivery of my second Macbook Pro 17", which 
boasts up to 10 hours battery life, although I have noticed that 
running Windows, albeit XP, reduces the expected life of my 3 year old 
MBP; although I can still expect around 2 hours, even with compiling 
and debugging.

> If you want a good quality PC, an HP Z400 without monitor, it is also € 
> 1.699 excl. VAT. iMac's are cheaper and with a monitor.
> 
> But you get a  W7 with fat borders that occupies nearly the whole 
> screen. There is hardly any space left in the clientwindow to put some 
> controls on it. A user is totally distracted by all these 
> non-informational transparant graphics.

Yes, The person I work with, at the moment, has W7 on his machine and I 
find it incredible "Fisher Price" in its appearance. The program 
switcher makes me feel giddy - the whole application seems to switch in 
the background and it is difficult to concentrate and see which 
application has focus.

Oh, by the way, how many non-Mac laptops can you sell, at 3 years old, 
for 40% of the price that you paid for it? I already have a buyer for 
my previous MBP :-)

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [TeamB]
0
Joanna
11/23/2010 7:40:49 AM
Joanna,

> Oh, by the way, how many non-Mac laptops can you sell, at 3 years old,
> for 40% of the price that you paid for it? I already have a buyer for
> my previous MBP :-)

i recently had a first-gen unibody 13" MacBook (2008) to redistribute 
within the company, and one of our Xcode devs said he didn't need it, 
his ~2 years older non-unibody MacBook Pro was doing it just fine for 
him, thank you.
0
marc
11/23/2010 9:53:27 AM
Am 22.11.2010 22:55, schrieb Alf Christophersen:
> On 22.11.2010 22:29, Hubert Anemaat wrote:
>> Hello Markus,
>>
>>> Because you can buy the home versions of office for 100 € or so if I'm
>>> not mistaken.
>> That is the price for students, not for businesses, not even small home businesses.
>>
>> Hubert
> 
> At least in Norway it is also for home use.
> 
> But as you say, probably not for home business

Ok, you're right.

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
11/23/2010 8:51:54 PM
Hi,

> "marc hoffman"  wrote in message news:307376@forums.embarcadero.com...
>
> 1990 called and wants it's argument back. ;)
>
With all the Apple propaganda here, I decided to take a look at the Apple 
Store. I mean, with a PC in each room, would an Apple hurt?
But really, you need a lot of encouragement to accept these offerings. I 
could swallow a higher base price, but especially the added extras are 
outrageously expensive.
e.g. with the Mac Mini:
4 GB instead of 2 GB is 90 Euros, you can easily get 2x2GB DDR3 for that 
money
500GB HD instead of 320 GB is 90 Euros, you can get TWO Western Digital 
500GB HD's for that.

with the iMacs prices are better, but there are NO i7 processors available 
here. How long ago is it, that these were introduced by Intel?

Mac Pro, entry model is a Quad Core Xeon, 3GB, 1TB machine, at a whopping 
2400 Euros, and without monitor. It would be very hard to even spend that 
kind of money on a PC without monitor, no matter how much memory or 
processing power you would buy.

In my opinion, Apple gets away with selling last year's hardware at double 
prices, all because of their "superior user experience".
You need a lot of Kool-Aid to buy that.

Regards, Matt
0
Matt
11/24/2010 1:49:57 PM
Matt,

> with the iMacs prices are better, but there are NO i7 processors available
> here. How long ago is it, that these were introduced by Intel?

weird. http://www.apple.com/imac/performance.html advertises the i7 processor.

> Mac Pro, entry model is a Quad Core Xeon, 3GB, 1TB machine, at a whopping
> 2400 Euros, and without monitor. It would be very hard to even spend that
> kind of money on a PC without monitor, no matter how much memory or
> processing power you would buy.

wrong. my colleague Carlo just recently bought a Mac Pro as windows 
development system. the *comparable* deskrtops fromWindows PC 
manufacturers such as DELL were all priced above the ~EUR3000 he ended 
up paying for his Mac Pro,

is the Mac Pro more expensive than the cheapest Windows box you can 
find at Best Buy? certainly. but don't underestimate the hardware that 
a Mac Pro provides, and what it costs.

> In my opinion, Apple gets away with selling last year's hardware at double
> prices,

in your opinion, maybe. in the real world, no

> all because of their "superior user experience".
> You need a lot of Kool-Aid to buy that.

right, because who cares about user experience, and why wouild a good 
user expericne BE worth anything rightright? after all, i don't have to 
work with the User Experience day in and day out.

you do get what you pay for.
0
marc
11/24/2010 3:05:52 PM
Hi Marc,

> "marc hoffman"  wrote in message news:308251@forums.embarcadero.com...
> weird. http://www.apple.com/imac/performance.html advertises the i7 
> processor.

You are right, I looked again and the i7 is an 180 Euro option on their top 
model, strange that they do not list it as a separate model, it probably has 
a different motherboard as well. 180 Euros as a price difference between i5 
and i7 is again pretty steep.

> wrong. my colleague Carlo just recently bought a Mac Pro as windows
> development system. the *comparable* deskrtops fromWindows PC
> manufacturers such as DELL were all priced above the ~EUR3000 he ended
> up paying for his Mac Pro,

I also think that Dell, HP and the like sell outdated computers for too much 
money. If you want value, you should get one that is assembled to order from 
premium parts. Many shops will offer to do that. All fully legal, with legal 
Windows if you want it. You can get a 6GB i7 machine with 1.5 TB HD and an 
extra SSD for speed, without monitor, for less than 1500 Euros, and that 
includes VAT.

My wife got an iPad recently, and I really would like to try writing some 
software for it. Looks like an iMac is the only reasonable option that is 
legal.

Regards, Matt
0
Matt
11/24/2010 4:02:19 PM
On 2010-11-24 13:49:57 +0000, Matt Claessen said:

> With all the Apple propaganda here, I decided to take a look at the Apple
> Store. I mean, with a PC in each room, would an Apple hurt?
> But really, you need a lot of encouragement to accept these offerings. I
> could swallow a higher base price, but especially the added extras are
> outrageously expensive.
> e.g. with the Mac Mini:
> 4 GB instead of 2 GB is 90 Euros, you can easily get 2x2GB DDR3 for that
> money
> 500GB HD instead of 320 GB is 90 Euros, you can get TWO Western Digital
> 500GB HD's for that.

It is well known amongst Mac aficionados that you never buy memory or 
disks from Apple.

Memory can be obtained from Crucial, Kingston or the like; whilst disks 
can be gotten from anywhere; both for a fraction of the Apple prices.

Just be sure to get a similar quality to those that are fitted :-)

As for the prices, it's all been said before. You get a whole load of 
*full version* software and, for the laptops, you get a pretty good 
price when compared with such as HP for the same spec.

I know the Mac Pros are expensive (I bought one) but it is whisper 
quiet and runs like greased lightning. Extra memory can be fitted 
without any tools and disks can be fitted by simply attaching them to 
the provided caddies and sliding them into a slot.

If you want a real bargain for your money, take a look at the Mac Mini. 
Small it might be but it makes an excellent entry model 
desktop/portable machine.

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [TeamB]
0
Joanna
11/24/2010 4:17:41 PM
On 2010-11-24 16:02:19 +0000, Matt Claessen said:

> My wife got an iPad recently, and I really would like to try writing some
> software for it. Looks like an iMac is the only reasonable option that is
> legal.

If you're tight on money and already have a monitor, get a Mac Mini.

… or have you already been seduced by one of those sexy, all-in-one, iMacs ;-)

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [TeamB]
0
Joanna
11/24/2010 4:20:52 PM
Joanna Carter wrote:

> I know the Mac Pros are expensive (I bought one) but it is whisper 
> quiet and runs like greased lightning. Extra memory can be fitted 
> without any tools and disks can be fitted by simply attaching them to 
> the provided caddies and sliding them into a slot.

I just bought a Mac Pro to use as my main machine, with Win 7 running
under Fusion for the Delphi development side of things.  I'm very
impressed with it, both from the hardware and software sides.  Now if I
can just figure out the whole Delphi Prism / Mono / Mono Touch thing, I
can start making progress on my iPad development project....

-- 
Cheers,
Van

"Half of what I say is meaningless..." - John Lennon
"Your job is to figure out which half." - Van Swofford
0
Van
11/24/2010 5:46:06 PM
Van,

>> I know the Mac Pros are expensive (I bought one) but it is whisper
>> quiet and runs like greased lightning. Extra memory can be fitted
>> without any tools and disks can be fitted by simply attaching them to
>> the provided caddies and sliding them into a slot.
> 
> I just bought a Mac Pro to use as my main machine, with Win 7 running
> under Fusion for the Delphi development side of things.  I'm very
> impressed with it, both from the hardware and software sides.

inded. i got an early-2008 eight-core Mac Pro, and it screams. just for 
the fun of it, i'd love one of the new 12-core ones, but the thing is, 
i just can't justify replacing this machine, it works to well enough 
and as expect it to continue to do so for a few more years. i don;t 
remember the last PC desktop i had that lasted more than a year or a 
year and a half before i was desperate to throw it out and get 
something newer & beefier. it's good to have a machine thats almost 3 
years old and still feels way top of the line. So, yes, it may have 
cost 3000 EUR or thereabouts. but it's not MUCH more than iospent on 
most then-"cutting edge" PCs, before, and has already been a much 
better investment.

> Now if I
> can just figure out the whole Delphi Prism / Mono / Mono Touch thing, I
> can start making progress on my iPad development project....

;)
0
marc
11/24/2010 6:35:39 PM
Van,

> Now if I
> can just figure out the whole Delphi Prism / Mono / Mono Touch thing, I
> can start making progress on my iPad development project....

you might wanna come to DSConf: www.dsconf.com
0
marc
11/24/2010 6:36:24 PM
marc hoffman wrote:

> you might wanna come to DSConf: www.dsconf.com

Hi marc,

Thanks for the pointer!  Yeah, I'm interested.  My app isn't database
driven, but does have pretty simple database needs, so the content
should be appropriate.  I'll look definitely interested.

-- 
Cheers,
Van

"Half of what I say is meaningless..." - John Lennon
"Your job is to figure out which half." - Van Swofford
0
Van
11/24/2010 7:17:35 PM
marc hoffman wrote:

> inded. i got an early-2008 eight-core Mac Pro, and it screams. just
> for the fun of it, i'd love one of the new 12-core ones, but the
> thing is, i just can't justify replacing this machine, it works to
> well enough and as expect it to continue to do so for a few more
> years. i don;t remember the last PC desktop i had that lasted more
> than a year or a year and a half before i was desperate to throw it
> out and get something newer & beefier. it's good to have a machine
> thats almost 3 years old and still feels way top of the line. So,
> yes, it may have cost 3000 EUR or thereabouts. but it's not MUCH more
> than iospent on most then-"cutting edge" PCs, before, and has already
> been a much better investment.

Yeah.  I looked at the 12-core, but just can't justify the expense.
Sure looks like fun, though.  :^)

My current HP system I bought a couple years ago, and as I recall it
was around $3000.  The 4-core Mac Pro, with some upgrades, cost around
$3400, so I'm not complaining about the price.  Timing could have been
better, though (purchase was precipitated by a hardware crash on
another PC).  But I needed it within the next few months anyway for the
iPad project.  I'm really looking forward to getting moved over to it
full time in the next month or so.

BTW, I still use a 6 year old Compaq for monthly software releases.
Been trying to get away from it, but for the limited thing it does, it
has been totally reliable, unlike the HPs I've gotten since, I just
keep it going because I know it'll do the job.  Hopefully the Mac will
take its job too.  Deskspace will be nice!

-- 
Cheers,
Van

"Half of what I say is meaningless..." - John Lennon
"Your job is to figure out which half." - Van Swofford
0
Van
11/24/2010 7:33:07 PM
On 2010-11-24 20:17:35 +0100, Van Swofford said:

> marc hoffman wrote:
> 
>> you might wanna come to DSConf: www.dsconf.com
> 
> Hi marc,
> 
> Thanks for the pointer!  Yeah, I'm interested.  My app isn't database
> driven, but does have pretty simple database needs, so the content
> should be appropriate.  I'll look definitely interested.

cool, looking forward to seeing you there! ;)
0
marc
11/24/2010 10:46:32 PM
On 2010-11-24 14:33:07 -0500, Van Swofford <jvsREMOVE@tybeejetNOSPAM.com> said:
> 
> Yeah.  I looked at the 12-core, but just can't justify the expense.

Neither could I, so I bought a 27" Quad core iMac.  Stock 4GB 1333 RAM 
and 1GB of video memory with a 1TB HD.  I bought an extra 8GB of 3rd 
party memory to bump the total to 12GB.  Also opted for the wireless 
magic trackpad.  Having become used to the gestures on my MacBook Pro, 
having the magic trackpad was a must (man, I love inertia scroll)  The 
machine is fantastic.  I easily run multiple Windows VMs with all the 
memory they need to perform well and this machine doesn't even break a 
sweat.  Bang for buck baby.

--
Kevin Powick
0
Kevin
11/25/2010 5:47:49 AM
On 2010-11-25 05:47:49 +0000, Kevin Powick said:

> …  I easily run multiple Windows VMs with all the
> memory they need to perform well and this machine doesn't even break a
> sweat.  Bang for buck baby.

Now there you make a very good point for using VMs for development. I 
am currently designing and testing network notifications and the 
ability to have multiple VMs, one for client, one for server, is one of 
the big excus^H^H^H^H^H reasons for upgrading to a new Macbook Pro, 
which will take up to 8GB instead of my present one, which can only 
reasonably run one VM in the 3GB allowed.

I must admit to not knowing, and possibly not caring, if Windows 7 can 
now do the same thing; my opinion of Windows machines remains that they 
seem to still be very much behind Macs. All I can say is that I had to 
upload some .CR2 format images from my Canon G10 camera to a friend's 
Vista machine and, although I could see thumbnails of the images on the 
connected camera, once the images were on the computer's disk, we could 
do nothing further with them unless we installed Canon's software. 
OTOH, I can do everything I want with .CR2 images, including editing 
them in iPhoto, on a Mac with no additional software.

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [TeamB]
0
Joanna
11/25/2010 7:44:21 AM
Take a look at WineBottler:
http://winebottler.kronenberg.org/
0
Ronnie
11/25/2010 11:09:11 AM
On 2010-11-25 11:09:11 +0000, Ronnie Smith said:

> Take a look at WineBottler:
> http://winebottler.kronenberg.org/

Or, better still a VM solution like Parallels or VMWare.

But it still won't look like an OS X app when it's running.

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [TeamB]
0
Joanna
11/25/2010 1:50:21 PM
Am 25.11.2010 08:44, schrieb Joanna Carter:
[snip]

> I must admit to not knowing, and possibly not caring, if Windows 7 can 
> now do the same thing; my opinion of Windows machines remains that they 
> seem to still be very much behind Macs. All I can say is that I had to 
> upload some .CR2 format images from my Canon G10 camera to a friend's 
> Vista machine and, although I could see thumbnails of the images on the 
> connected camera, once the images were on the computer's disk, we could 
> do nothing further with them unless we installed Canon's software. 
> OTOH, I can do everything I want with .CR2 images, including editing 
> them in iPhoto, on a Mac with no additional software.

If MS would put a "real" photo application into the OS soon somebody
from one of the other graphics applications manufacuters would get the
idea to file a lawsuit against MS about abusing a monopoly etc.

In US this would work, because courts mostly thend to come to the
conclusion: "people are dumb and cannot decide for themselves so they
must be protected". Look at the fast food coffee cup lawsuit and how the
US one turned out and what happened with the UK one for instance...

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
11/25/2010 6:35:29 PM
Kevin Powick wrote:

> Neither could I, so I bought a 27" Quad core iMac.  Stock 4GB 1333
> RAM and 1GB of video memory with a 1TB HD.  I bought an extra 8GB of
> 3rd party memory to bump the total to 12GB.  Also opted for the
> wireless magic trackpad.  Having become used to the gestures on my
> MacBook Pro, having the magic trackpad was a must (man, I love
> inertia scroll)  The machine is fantastic.  I easily run multiple
> Windows VMs with all the memory they need to perform well and this
> machine doesn't even break a sweat.  Bang for buck baby.

I took a look at the iMac, but in the end went for the Mac Pro.  I
haven't had much luck with longevity from laptops (the other "all in
one"), and I've never been much of a road warrior, so my laptops have
been treated very gently.  So I didn't wanna have all my eggs in one
basket in the event of a component failure.  With the Mac Pro, if my
monitor craps out, I can just replace it and go on.  Same for most of
the other components.  I do like the bang per buck of the iMac, though!

-- 
Cheers,
Van

"Half of what I say is meaningless..." - John Lennon
"Your job is to figure out which half." - Van Swofford
0
Van
11/26/2010 4:41:01 PM
marc hoffman wrote:

> cool, looking forward to seeing you there! ;)

Signed up last night.  See you there!

-- 
Cheers,
Van

"Half of what I say is meaningless..." - John Lennon
"Your job is to figure out which half." - Van Swofford
0
Van
12/1/2010 2:04:47 PM
Reply:

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