Delphi 64bit versus Delphi Mac/Linux

interesting comments...
http://www.deltics.co.nz/blog/?p=452
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6/15/2009 9:57:27 PM
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"Ralf Stocker" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message 
news:127800@forums.codegear.com...
> interesting comments...
> http://www.deltics.co.nz/blog/?p=452

A very small fraction of Delphi users actually need the memory access of 64 
bit, and 32 bit apps will work the same on x64 anyway.
A small fraction of Delphi users actually need cross-platform support.

I'm not sure if having either first will 'save' Delphi from the 
'traditional' tools for each platform (VS, Cocoa, Eclipse, etc.)

It primarily exists now for smallish native Windows developments and to 
support exisiting codebases. I don't see anything here thats going to change 
that.

CB
0
Charles
6/16/2009 8:40:38 AM
> {quote:title=Ralf Stocker wrote:}{quote}
> interesting comments...
> http://www.deltics.co.nz/blog/?p=452
For us cross platform is a much bigger priority than 64-bit, and is in fact the main reason why we're looking at moving away from Delphi.
0
Matthew
6/16/2009 9:08:20 AM
> interesting comments...
> http://www.deltics.co.nz/blog/?p=452

Au contraire. I find this whole discussion a real mistake. IMHO: Delphi 1 
stood for making life simpler. Nowadays it's nearly impossible to make young 
people enthousiactic for Delphi. If we don't want the Delphi-community to 
decimate, we need to consider their needs and not ours. They really don't 
give a **** about cross platform or 64-bit. Codegear has to start "thinking 
sexy" again.
0
Peter
6/16/2009 9:32:06 AM
If  CG waits any longer, the point will be moot, since all other targets will be 64-bit.
0
Marco
6/16/2009 12:21:51 PM
"Peter Overweel" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message 
news:127968@forums.codegear.com...
>
> They really don't give a **** about cross platform or 64-bit.
> Codegear has to start "thinking sexy" again.

So, all they think about is sex?
0
Uffe
6/16/2009 12:40:29 PM
> So, all they think about is sex?

I do..  don't you?
0
Peter
6/16/2009 1:08:48 PM
I think the reasons Delphi 1 to 7 were so successful is because they made the kind of development people wanted to do (Windows desktop apps) much easier than other products (VB, VC++) with the end result being as good or better. In other words, Delphi kicks VB or VC++ for building Windows apps. It still does.

The problem now is that while building Windows desktop apps is still big business, building web and server apps is the real growth area. While Delphi is capable in these areas, it doesn't kick a$$ anywhere near to the degree that it does for Windows desktop apps, in fact I would say that .NET and Java really are much better for web and server app development. I don't think Delphi will be really competitive in these areas in the near/medium future.

To be successful Delphi has to focus on it's core competency, building desktop apps. Desktop apps are not that sexy any more, unless they are WPF. Young people will not find Delphi sexy but there is still a big market building desktop apps across a rang of platforms. 



> 
> Au contraire. I find this whole discussion a real mistake. IMHO: Delphi 1 
> stood for making life simpler. Nowadays it's nearly impossible to make young 
> people enthousiactic for Delphi. If we don't want the Delphi-community to 
> decimate, we need to consider their needs and not ours. They really don't 
> give a **** about cross platform or 64-bit. Codegear has to start "thinking 
> sexy" again.
0
Craig
6/16/2009 1:16:53 PM
"Charles B" wrote on Tue, 16 Jun 2009 01:40:38 -0700:

> A very small fraction of Delphi users actually need the memory access of 64 
> bit, and 32 bit apps will work the same on x64 anyway.
> A small fraction of Delphi users actually need cross-platform support.

It is *not true* that 32 bit applications "work the same on x64
anyway."  You can *not* run a 32 bit shell extension on 64 bit
Windows.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
http://www.swordsearcher.com
http://www.studylamp.com
http://www.brandonstaggs.com
0
Brandon
6/16/2009 2:43:04 PM
"Brandon Staggs" <nospam@a.b.c> wrote in message 
news:128058@forums.codegear.com...
> It is *not true* that 32 bit applications "work the same on x64
> anyway."  You can *not* run a 32 bit shell extension on 64 bit
> Windows.

Most of us are talking about 32-bit apps, not shell extensions, which are 
more akin to OS add-ons. If the OS is 64-bit, I can understand why an add-on 
to it must be 64-bit. I am not saying there isn't a sizeable market out 
there for people writing shell extensions for 64-bit OS's, just that there 
is a bigger market of people writing 32-bit apps that will run on both 
32-bit and 64-bit Windows OS's.
-- 
Mark Jacobs
www.jacobsm.com
0
Mark
6/16/2009 7:11:52 PM
"Mark Jacobs" wrote on Tue, 16 Jun 2009 12:11:52 -0700:

> "Brandon Staggs" <nospam@a.b.c> wrote in message 
> news:128058@forums.codegear.com...
>> It is *not true* that 32 bit applications "work the same on x64
>> anyway."  You can *not* run a 32 bit shell extension on 64 bit
>> Windows.
> 
> Most of us are talking about 32-bit apps, not shell extensions, which are 
> more akin to OS add-ons. If the OS is 64-bit, I can understand why an add-on 
> to it must be 64-bit. I am not saying there isn't a sizeable market out 
> there for people writing shell extensions for 64-bit OS's, just that there 
> is a bigger market of people writing 32-bit apps that will run on both 
> 32-bit and 64-bit Windows OS's.

I would like both (64 and multi-platform) -- but given the amount of
work involved in having a *true* multi-platform development
environment, I'd like to see Delphi fully support Windows *first*.
It's been years since 64 bit has been available, and it will not be
long before almost all new computers come with 64 bit OSes.  While it
is true that most 32 bit applications will work on Win 64, it is also
true that many will not, and that "64 bit" is also a marketing issue
I'd like to be able to positively address. (I am not interested in
educating people about 32 bit on 64, I'd much rather just say "yes, we
have a 64 bit version.")

I don't know any details (most of us don't), but prioritizing
multi-platform ahead of 64 bit for Windows seems to be going in the
wrong direction.  Delphi, for me, is all about native development for
Windows.  At this point, 64 bit seems way overdue, and the lack
thereof is preventing me from moving to the next logical step for at
least one project.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
http://www.swordsearcher.com
http://www.studylamp.com
http://www.brandonstaggs.com
0
Brandon
6/16/2009 8:07:03 PM
<Craig van Nieuwkerk> schreef in bericht news:128038@forums.codegear.com...
>I think the reasons Delphi 1 to 7 were so successful is because they made 
>the kind of development
> people wanted to do (Windows desktop apps) much easier than other 
> products.

Agree :-)

> The problem now is that while building Windows desktop apps is still big 
> business, building web and
> server apps is the real growth area. While Delphi is capable in these 
> areas, it doesn't kick a$$ anywhere
> near to the degree that it does for Windows desktop apps, in fact I would 
> say that .NET and Java really
> are much better for web and server app development. I don't think Delphi 
> will be really competitive in
> these areas in the near/medium future.

Disagree.. Nobdy knows what the future will hold. It might be web/server 
apps, game-development, mobile apps, WPF etc. Targetting a growth-market 
(whatever it may be) is certainly no garantee for success. (Ask any 
economist) Codegear is a company that largely depends on its community and 
its investors, so Codegear needs a sexy image that attracts young people and 
in their slipstream investors will follow.

> To be successful Delphi has to focus on it's core competency, building 
> desktop apps. Desktop apps are
> not that sexy any more, unless they are WPF. Young people will not find 
> Delphi sexy but there is still a big market
> building desktop apps across a rang of platforms.

Disagree. The markets are all saturated already. (=simple fact) And don't 
decide for me what I should be developing please... I only want to continue 
using Delphi and to survive Delphi will have to compete for the enthusiasm 
of young people and investors. (=simple fact as well) Being self-centered is 
the beginning of the end, so please please please start thinking about the 
interests of young people... My guess is that these are "cool mobile-apps" 
and "social community networks". And I think they certainly hate debugging 
the old-fashion way. They expect an easy-to-learn game-like IDE. And they 
dream of winning awards and reap fame, so perhaps Codegear should integrate 
a contest-module into the IDE or something like an Delphi-store. But my 
guesses are not that important. I simply challenge you to start thinking 
sexy as well... ;-)
0
Peter
6/17/2009 9:00:07 AM
"Brandon Staggs" <nospam@a.b.c> wrote in message 
news:128058@forums.codegear.com...
> "Charles B" wrote on Tue, 16 Jun 2009 01:40:38 -0700:
>
>> A very small fraction of Delphi users actually need the memory access of 
>> 64
>> bit, and 32 bit apps will work the same on x64 anyway.
>> A small fraction of Delphi users actually need cross-platform support.
>
> It is *not true* that 32 bit applications "work the same on x64
> anyway."  You can *not* run a 32 bit shell extension on 64 bit
> Windows.

Sorry, should've said 'most'. Those that rely on 32bit drivers (like mine) 
obviously won't work properly either.

CB
0
Charles
6/17/2009 9:56:02 AM
> {quote:title=Mark Jacobs wrote:}{quote}
> Most of us are talking about 32-bit apps, not shell extensions, which are 
> more akin to OS add-ons. If the OS is 64-bit, I can understand why an add-on 
> to it must be 64-bit. I am not saying there isn't a sizeable market out 
> there for people writing shell extensions for 64-bit OS's, just that there 
> is a bigger market of people writing 32-bit apps that will run on both 
> 32-bit and 64-bit Windows OS's.

Another issue is drivers.  Installing both the 32-bit and 64-bit Oracle client on a 64-bit server is not documented and apparently not officially supported, although a bit of googling indicates that it can be done, but is a tad risky with regards to maintainability.  The operations guys cringed at the notion...  if anyone have a fairly foolproof method of achieving that goal - I'd love to hear about it (Apart from using dbexpress drivers that bypass the native Oracle client).

Our clients (government and education) have mostly moved to 64-bits platform on the server side, and the client side is following suit.  Our time window for producing 64-bit versions is becoming narrower every day.  On the other hand - not a single one of our desktop applications have a need for cross platform compilation.

--
http://Lars.Fosdal.com - There are no stupid questions
http://delphi.fosdal.com - Delphi Programming
0
Lars
6/17/2009 1:29:19 PM
Mark Jacobs,

> Most of us are talking about 32-bit apps, not shell extensions

It's not only about shell extensions: Every project which results in DLLs
has this problem: 64-bit processes can only load 64-bit DLLs.
For example you can configure IIS (6) to either work in 32- or 64-bit mode:
If someone decided to enable 64-bit because he needs ASP.NET 64 then all
your 32-bit ISAPI dlls will stop working on this server.

-- 
/\/\arkus.
0
Markus
6/17/2009 2:15:09 PM
I agree pretty much, and would add game development as a great area of 
interest.

I think "And don't decide for me what I should be developing please..." 
is key here.
Tools that are too narrow in focus don't allow any creativity and that's 
what you want to be, even more when you are young. Do something 
*different* and new, show what you are able to do, be inspired.
Obviously tools that give you more of this freedom are more interesting.
Resources are always limited but people need a real reason to buy.

 > They expect an easy-to-learn game-like IDE.
Maybe not game-like but easy.
0
Utf
6/17/2009 2:30:21 PM
Markus Springweiler wrote:

> It's not only about shell extensions: Every project which results in DLLs
> has this problem: 64-bit processes can only load 64-bit DLLs.
> For example you can configure IIS (6) to either work in 32- or 64-bit mode:
> If someone decided to enable 64-bit because he needs ASP.NET 64 then all
> your 32-bit ISAPI dlls will stop working on this server.

Exactly. Similarly, if you create a .NET application (for instance) that 
can load DLL's, if even one of those DLL's is from Delphi, the host 
application and the rest of the plugins now all need to target 32-bit.
0
Nathanial
6/17/2009 4:30:11 PM
> Resources are always limited but people need a real reason to buy.

This is the key. CodeGear can't create an all singing and dancing IDE. One of the reasons Delphi.NET died was because they were unable to keep pace with advances that Microsoft was. Focus is key. 

I do agree with other poster than an IDE for developing mobile apps would be great. One problem I see though is that there are half a dozen competing mobile platforms. iPhone would be a big one to support, but how big is that market really? And how closed is it by Apple. I am not convinced it is yet a huge market even though it is growing rapidly. 

Craig.
0
Craig
6/17/2009 10:54:22 PM
I'm not talking about .NET or mobile phones, I was talking about 
multimedia, graphics and game programming.
It doesn't need to dance, but would be great if some focus was put on 
producing high performance code and support for DirectX and OpenCL for 
example, out of the box.
Support for OpenCL or DirectX11 with compute shaders would be really 
cool and useful.

Something similar to WPF but native would be a good idea too.
Currently component development is not very effective: most of the time 
  subclassing built-in Windows controls is not flexible enough, which 
means you often have to build controls from scratch.
It would help if you had a much more modular design, where each part of 
the control (which I call sub-control) has a meaning, you can define 
behavior and layout in a declarative way. These "sub-controls" would 
have built-in mouse and keyboard handling).
This information can be used (such as in HTML) to compose the final 
component, handle scrolling, automatically clip things away, and only 
display the necessary part of the data (allowing displaying of huge 
files for example) and avoid flickering.
Currently you have to do all that manually and a seemingly simple custom 
control requires huge amount of code and work.

Another benefit would be that since behavior and look is declarative you 
would be able to define what a control should do and how it should look 
like in a flexible way. Then the right control depending on the platform 
could be chosen, plugging in whatever behavior is typical on the platform.

A simple example: try to extend a TTreeView to display multiline strings.
At first this looks easy, but then you run into all sorts of glitches: 
clicking and scrolling doesn't work anymore, you have to paint the node 
make sure it looks right in themed and non-themed mode and you get 
flickering you cannot remedy (custom painting causes the controls to 
flicker, even if you don't paint anything). Supporting multi-line nodes 
should be a trivial extension to an existing component but it isn't.

A ListView in virtual mode gets painfully slow.

It's not CodeGears fault, but IMO this is something that needs 
improvement. WPF has some good ideas to build and extend existing 
controls in a more easy way, instead of the "sealed" nature of current 
controls. Building a toolbar, floating and docking windows etc. should 
be possible using rather trivial declarative descriptions.

Think of it like a 3D-engine which does the hard work like rendering, 
collision detection etc., while you specify how the scenery looks and 
what characters do there.

Example of truly generic controls: A text editor control which can 
handle different types of data, you can write extensions to make it 
behave like a hex editor, a spreadsheet or even a formula editor.
But it should work such that you can tell the editor how to behave 
differently from the standard behavior instead of restarting from scratch.

When plotting a graph, the graph would be clickable, you could stretch 
it and scale it because it's a true graphic object, not just a drawing.

I have thought about implementing this, but it's a huge task. Anyway, 
having done that it would be far more easy to create controls and entire 
UIs without special knowledge, similar to 3D engines that allow you to 
create games.
0
Utf
6/18/2009 1:37:12 AM
> {quote:title=Maël Hörz wrote:}{quote}
> I'm not talking about .NET or mobile phones, I was talking about 
> multimedia, graphics and game programming.
> It doesn't need to dance, but would be great if some focus was put on 
> producing high performance code and support for DirectX and OpenCL for 
> example, out of the box.
> Support for OpenCL or DirectX11 with compute shaders would be really 
> cool and useful.

Sounds great, but a pretty small market. 

> 
> Something similar to WPF but native would be a good idea too.
> Currently component development is not very effective: most of the time 
>   subclassing built-in Windows controls is not flexible enough, which 
> means you often have to build controls from scratch.

You shouldn't think WPF is just a nice way of skinning apps. I think a native version of WPF with equivalent functionality is probably beyond the resources CodeGear have. And even if they did, the end result would not be a big enough benefit over WPF for 99% of developers to bother looking at it. If they had infinite money like MS to throw at it, it might be worth a try.

Craig.
0
Craig
6/18/2009 5:01:59 AM
You think in big numbers Craig. :-) But I don't think that the key is 
whether a market is big or not. After all if you can't get a large 
percentage of the market it doesn't matter whether the market is big or not. 
0% of a billion is still nothing. And as you pointed out: Big markets are 
highly competitive and trying to overtake "big technology of others" puts 
you into a position with little prospect.

Perhaps the key thing is "investment-risk-management". Don't put all your 
eggs in one basket. Don't bite off more than you can chew. Look to the 
future and invest in the people of tomorrow. This buys you time. But this 
calls for "an open state of mind". Forcing your rusty old brain to think 
fresh young thoughts. Stop chasing old long-term goals, start looking around 
and try to enjoy today. Accept that young people can contribute. (In the 
future we depend more on them than we dare to admitt) Stop defending your 
own ideas at all cost. And very important: Share this new found enthusiasm 
with the youngsters... Dare to share... :-)
0
Peter
6/18/2009 8:15:34 AM
Peter Overweel wrote:

> You think in big numbers Craig. :-) But I don't think that the key is
> whether a market is big or not.

I think it is. A small or medium portion of a small market is not
necessarily enough to get a useful ROI. A small portion of a big market
(like Windows) could still give you enough ROI.
-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)        http://www.teamb.com

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, 
 and I'm not sure about the former."
 -- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
0
Rudy
6/18/2009 12:06:07 PM
>> Support for OpenCL or DirectX11 with compute shaders would be
>> really cool and useful.
> 
> Sounds great, but a pretty small market.
Game development and parallel programming is not a small market.

> You shouldn't think WPF is just a nice way of skinning apps.
Far from that, please read the post more precisely.

> I think a native version of WPF with equivalent functionality is 
> probably beyond the resources CodeGear have. And even if they did,
> the end result would not be a big enough benefit over WPF for 99% of 
> developers to bother looking at it.
WPF was meant as inspiration (taking some ideas) not copying it. I agree
it makes no sense to duplicate something just to make it native. But a
cross platform UI could benefit from an intent driven/declarative
description, letting the system figure out the details. You could also
get a future proof systems which could relatively easily adapt to new
usage paradigms.

WRT resources, I think you could say that for most innovations. But many
people claim here that you need it to get new customers.
True innovation means investments, and I agree it's difficult to plan
properly and you have to be careful.
Though, people shouldn't claim that doing classic things like cross
compilation and supporting 64-bit is going to attract new customers.
They usually have this already in their current toolset. I agree though
that it is most definitely important for current customers (including me).

Summary:
New customers = innovate => requires investments
Keep customers (more or less) = stay up to date

If your system has some substance you might also be successful with a
lot of marketing instead of true innovation, but this requires
investments, too.

Personally, I think you need to innovate in the long run, to stay relevant.
0
Utf
6/18/2009 2:02:48 PM
>>> Support for OpenCL or DirectX11 with compute shaders would be
>>> really cool and useful.
>> Sounds great, but a pretty small market.
> Game development and parallel programming is not a small market.
I forgot to add that it's mostly doing some header conversion, so that's 
not a huge investment. Additionally it's for supporting a major 
component of the OS, DirectX is not something exotic.
0
Utf
6/18/2009 2:06:11 PM
Ralf Stocker wrote:
> interesting comments...
> http://www.deltics.co.nz/blog/?p=452


Oh well!
0
D
6/18/2009 4:34:31 PM
> I'm not talking about .NET or mobile phones, I was talking about 
> multimedia, graphics and game programming.
> It doesn't need to dance, but would be great if some focus was put on 
> producing high performance code and support for DirectX and OpenCL for 
> example, out of the box.
> Support for OpenCL or DirectX11 with compute shaders would be really 
> cool and useful.

Well, but there are third party components, tutorials and stuff for 3D 
programming with Delphi. Many years ago DelphiX and GLScene were born, remember? 
And have a look at http://www.clootie.ru/ which is a great resource for Direct3D 
programming. There are a lot of excellent Delphi games out there and engines, 
tools and open source code to create them (also see 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTyYM12YRew and 
http://www.pascalgamedevelopment.com/).

> A simple example: try to extend a TTreeView to display multiline strings.
> At first this looks easy, but then you run into all sorts of glitches: 
> clicking and scrolling doesn't work anymore, you have to paint the node 
> make sure it looks right in themed and non-themed mode and you get 
> flickering you cannot remedy (custom painting causes the controls to 
> flicker, even if you don't paint anything). Supporting multi-line nodes 
> should be a trivial extension to an existing component but it isn't.
> 
> A ListView in virtual mode gets painfully slow.

That's why everybody uses Mike Lischke's TVirtualTreeView.

> Example of truly generic controls: A text editor control which can 
> handle different types of data, you can write extensions to make it 
> behave like a hex editor, a spreadsheet or even a formula editor.
> But it should work such that you can tell the editor how to behave 
> differently from the standard behavior instead of restarting from scratch.
> 
> When plotting a graph, the graph would be clickable, you could stretch 
> it and scale it because it's a true graphic object, not just a drawing.

Right, such components coming with Delphi might be very useful for a lot of 
developers. On the other hand Delphi always had a strong third party component 
market, and I always thought that's a big advantage. Maybe today developers want 
to have such things out-of-the-box.

-- 
Jens Gruschel
http://www.pegtop.net
0
Jens
6/18/2009 5:35:37 PM
<Craig van Nieuwkerk> wrote in message news:128038@forums.codegear.com...
> To be successful Delphi has to focus on it's core competency, building 
> desktop apps. Desktop apps are not that sexy any more, unless they are 
> WPF. Young people will not find Delphi sexy but there is still a big 
> market building desktop apps across a rang of platforms.

Video games are desktop apps, and are very 'sexy'.  As are mobile apps.  So 
delphi has a lot of potential once it gets its cross-platform 'groove' 
going.  Imagine compiling the same game on the PC, Mac, Win Mobile, iPhone, 
and the Pre.
0
Joe
6/18/2009 6:53:52 PM
> Well, but there are third party components, tutorials and stuff for 3D 
> programming with Delphi. Many years ago DelphiX and GLScene were born, remember? 
> And have a look at http://www.clootie.ru/ which is a great resource for Direct3D 
> programming. There are a lot of excellent Delphi games out there and engines, 
> tools and open source code to create them (also see 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTyYM12YRew and 
> http://www.pascalgamedevelopment.com/).
I'm well aware of that, you can do a lot of nice things with 3rd party 
libraries. But the compiler could use some better optimizations and I'm 
not aware of Open*CL* (not GL) or DirectX11 compute shaders. Compute 
shaders would also benefit from integration into the language, instead 
of just writing C code as a string and passing that to OpenCL.

> That's why everybody uses Mike Lischke's TVirtualTreeView.
Sure, it's a nice component. But you shouldn't have to resort to it for 
minor modifications. And it was just one example of a simple extension 
of a standard component which is not working as it should. Every 
component should be easy to extend.

> Right, such components coming with Delphi might be very useful for a lot of 
> developers. On the other hand Delphi always had a strong third party component 
> market, and I always thought that's a big advantage. Maybe today developers want 
> to have such things out-of-the-box.
I develop components myself and use third-party ones. But it's about 
flexibility. Component vendors will do generic controls, but if I want 
to have a component which adapts to my specific domain ("real life" 
domain the application targets) I have to do it. This happens with most 
non-trivial apps.
Extending third-party controls isn't necessarily easier, it depends a 
lot on the design. I was trying to explain roughly in my earlier posts 
how such a design could look like.
0
Utf
6/18/2009 8:08:29 PM
>   A small or medium portion of a small market is not
>   necessarily enough to get a useful ROI. A small portion of a big market
>   (like Windows) could still give you enough ROI.
>

Hi Rudy :)

Knowing the size of traditional markets does not give you any guarantee 
about your potential marketshare. This information just gives a false sense 
of certainty. (=Famous China-marketing-mistake: If every Chinese would buy 
my cookies once a year I would make a fortune)

I plead for finding totally new markets (or combine existing ones into 
something new) Finding totally new markets is risky as well, but at least 
you have a head start when you stumble upon one. And if you could attract 
young people, you might have a long product life cycle. IMHO Delphi 1 
created a new market at the time.
0
Peter
6/19/2009 6:49:57 AM
<Marco van de Voort> schreef in bericht news:128019@forums.codegear.com...
> If  CG waits any longer, the point will be moot, since all other targets 
> will be 64-bit.

Yes, but will it be sexy? I propose to go for 69-bit... ;-)
0
Peter
6/19/2009 7:10:57 AM
> Right, such components coming with Delphi might be very useful for a lot 
> of
> developers. On the other hand Delphi always had a strong third party 
> component
> market, and I always thought that's a big advantage. Maybe today 
> developers want
> to have such things out-of-the-box.

"Out-of-the-box" is from the pre-iPhone-era.... "App-stores" are the latest 
hot stuff.... :-)
0
Peter
6/19/2009 7:22:20 AM
"Peter Overweel" wrote:
>>   A small or medium portion of a small market is not
>>   necessarily enough to get a useful ROI. A small portion of a big market
>>   (like Windows) could still give you enough ROI.
>
> Hi Rudy :)
>
> Knowing the size of traditional markets does not give you any guarantee 
> about your potential marketshare. This information just gives a false 
> sense of certainty. (=Famous China-marketing-mistake: If every Chinese 
> would buy my cookies once a year I would make a fortune)

The way you capture market share is build a better product and market it 
aggressively.

> I plead for finding totally new markets (or combine existing ones into 
> something new) Finding totally new markets is risky as well, but at least 
> you have a head start when you stumble upon one. And if you could attract 
> young people, you might have a long product life cycle. IMHO Delphi 1 
> created a new market at the time.

"stumble upon one" is not a concept that is likely to attract much favor in 
the business world. ;-)

Delphi-1 didn't create a new market. However it was a better toolset to 
create Windows RAD apps than existed at that time and thus gained a 
significant share of an already expanding market for Windows apps. There 
were flaws in it's marketing plan that eventually limited it's ultimate 
potential.
0
John
6/19/2009 8:12:29 AM
Peter Overweel wrote:

> >  A small or medium portion of a small market is not
> >  necessarily enough to get a useful ROI. A small portion of a big
> > market  (like Windows) could still give you enough ROI.
> > 
> 
> Hi Rudy :)
> 
> Knowing the size of traditional markets does not give you any
> guarantee about your potential marketshare.

No, of course not. But the demand for development products for a small
market is likely to be lower than one for a big market.


-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)        http://www.teamb.com

"A great many people think they are thinking when they are
 merely rearranging their prejudices." -- William James
0
Rudy
6/19/2009 10:58:57 AM
Windows is awfully slow compared to the Mac (Unix based) or Linux based systems like Ubuntu: up and running in 30 seconds, changing user in 1 second, shutting down in 10 seconds (not stand-by!), etc...
I discovered the Mac nearly 2 years ago. The Mac is already 64-bit since Tiger. Leopard is the current Mac OS.

If Embarcadero is going to develop Delphi for other platforms, it is automatically 64-bit !  Only Windows users are using 32-bit software because there are problems with the drivers in the 64-bit Windows environment.
It is a waste of money to use a 32-bit OS on a 64-bit dual- or quad-core processor.

My advice to Embarcardero is to invest for new Delphi developments based on the faster, safer and more user friendlier Unix and Linux based OS's. If Embarcadero is investing now, they will be ready for the market of tomorrow.

The market share of the Mac and Ubuntu is growing fast. When I give demonstrations on the Mac, my public is astonished about the speed and the easy-to-use. I can persuade them to buy a Mac. It will not take long anymore before the critical mass has reached and the market wants to change to these Unix/Linux based OS's.

Hubert Anemaat

> {quote:title=Ralf Stocker wrote:}{quote}
> interesting comments...
> http://www.deltics.co.nz/blog/?p=452
0
Hubert
7/30/2009 8:10:34 AM
Hubert Anemaat schrieb:

> My advice to Embarcardero is to invest for new Delphi developments
> based on the faster, safer and more user friendlier Unix and Linux
> based OS's. If Embarcadero is investing now, they will be ready for
> the market of tomorrow.

Reading the many comments on the recent Unicode conversion, I doubt that 
these Delphi users will accept another change in the components (VCL and 
third party), to make these ready for Carbon or other widgetsets.

The VCL.NET disaster has proven the requirement for a very new VCL, 
before other platforms can be targeted. And it also proved the necessity 
of huge investments for such experiments, with uncertain outcome. If 
Lazarus were more professional, as RemObjects are, the LCL could be 
licensed by CodeGear/Embarcadero for multi-platform development. Then 
the acceptance of that intermediate solution could reveal the market for 
further product expansion.

DoDi
0
Hans
7/30/2009 11:50:15 AM
"Hubert Anemaat" wrote:
>
> My advice to Embarcardero is to invest for new Delphi developments based 
> on the faster, safer and more user friendlier Unix and Linux based OS's. 
> If Embarcadero is investing now, they will be ready for the market of 
> tomorrow.
>
> ... It will not take long anymore before the critical mass has reached and 
> the market wants to change to these Unix/Linux based OS's.

Why do these Mac Addicts totally neglect reality?

http://www.itwire.com/content/view/22362/53/
Windows crushing Linux in netbook market: Acer
Wednesday, 17 December 2008
"Contrary to some recent reports, senior managers at Acer and other leading 
vendors have confirmed that Microsoft Windows XP now dominates the emerging 
sub-notebook market with more than 90% of new sales. Meanwhile, Linux, which 
had the netbooks market to itself until April this year, has seen its share 
of the space eroded to less than 10% in a breath-taking decline."
0
John
7/30/2009 1:25:51 PM
<Hubert Anemaat> wrote in message news:143018@forums.codegear.com...
> Windows is awfully slow compared to the Mac (Unix based) or Linux based 
> systems like Ubuntu: up and running in 30 seconds, changing user in 1 
> second, shutting down in 10 seconds (not stand-by!), etc...
> I discovered the Mac nearly 2 years ago. The Mac is already 64-bit since 
> Tiger. Leopard is the current Mac OS.

Oh, please.  My vista machine boots in under 30 seconds.  And its by no 
means a top of the line PC.  You'd be suprised how well the OS runs if you 
run it as MS intended it, as opposed to a version loaded down with crapware 
from a PC vendor.

> The market share of the Mac and Ubuntu is growing fast.

Its growing, yes.  At a rate that might get them 50% total desktop share in 
40 years.  I fully support Linux & Mac versions of delphi because I think 
that will be a great niche for embarcadero and will help commercial software 
publishers such as myself reach new customers.  But lets not kid ourselves 
into thinking that windows isnt, or wont be in the foreseable future, the 
dominant desktop OS.

> When I give demonstrations on the Mac, my public is astonished about the 
> speed and the easy-to-use.

Most of the public can barely operate a Mouse.  You can impress people 
easily by skillfully showing off any OS.
0
Joe
7/30/2009 8:20:58 PM
Charles,

> A very small fraction of Delphi users actually need the memory access of 64
> bit,

very few users should need ore than 640kByte, as a matter of fact. oh, 
wait..
0
marc
7/30/2009 9:20:05 PM
"marc hoffman" <mh@spamobjects.com> wrote in message 
news:143394@forums.codegear.com...
>> A very small fraction of Delphi users actually need the memory access of 
>> 64
>> bit,
> very few users should need ore than 640kByte, as a matter of fact. oh,
> wait..

That quote would be funnier if Bill Gates had actually said it.
0
Joe
7/30/2009 9:28:14 PM
> Why do these Mac Addicts totally neglect reality?

Well, I was a Windows user for 15 years. We still have Windows applications. Most problems that our helpdesk solves, are due to the Windows OS: e.g. HTML Help right panel is invisible in a network, driveletter does not exist anymore, icons are automatically deleted from the desktop, network suddenly very slow, etc...

We made our decision to move to the Mac, because we can save a lot on helpdesk and system management costs.

Windows has still the largest marketshare, but it is decreasing. 

Why is MS still selling XP for the netbooks ?  MS wanted to stop the support for XP already a few years ago. Why didn't they do this ?

Hubert Anemaat


> {quote:title=John Cash wrote:}{quote}
> "Hubert Anemaat" wrote:
> >
> > My advice to Embarcardero is to invest for new Delphi developments based 
> > on the faster, safer and more user friendlier Unix and Linux based OS's. 
> > If Embarcadero is investing now, they will be ready for the market of 
> > tomorrow.
> >
> > ... It will not take long anymore before the critical mass has reached and 
> > the market wants to change to these Unix/Linux based OS's.
> 
> Why do these Mac Addicts totally neglect reality?
> 
> http://www.itwire.com/content/view/22362/53/
> Windows crushing Linux in netbook market: Acer
> Wednesday, 17 December 2008
> "Contrary to some recent reports, senior managers at Acer and other leading 
> vendors have confirmed that Microsoft Windows XP now dominates the emerging 
> sub-notebook market with more than 90% of new sales. Meanwhile, Linux, which 
> had the netbooks market to itself until April this year, has seen its share 
> of the space eroded to less than 10% in a breath-taking decline."
0
Hubert
7/31/2009 8:42:39 AM
In article <143575@forums.codegear.com>, Hubert Anemaat wrote:
> Why is MS still selling XP for the netbooks ?  

Because that is what people want to buy.  Given the choice between 
linux or windows, 95% choose windows according to the sales numbers



-- 
  Taz=TProgrammer.create(Delphi)
0
Tarry
7/31/2009 9:25:28 AM
Joe,

> That quote would be funnier if Bill Gates had actually said it.

i don't think whether he did, or not, really affects the point, here.
0
marc
7/31/2009 9:51:40 AM
"Hubert Anemaat" wrote:
>> Why do these Mac Addicts totally neglect reality?
>
> Windows has still the largest marketshare, but it is decreasing.

If it's decreasing on the desktop, it certainly isn't anywhere near fast 
enough to reach a critical mass tipping point in the near future as you 
said.

> Why is MS still selling XP for the netbooks ?  MS wanted to stop the 
> support for XP already a few years ago. Why didn't they do this ?

Simple, XP runs better on the less powerful netbook hardware than does Vista 
and Microsoft really wanted to drive a stake into the heart of Linux in a 
rapidly growing market segment that was exclusively Linux. The XP license 
for netbooks manufacturers is limited by certain hardware restrictions and 
priced accordingly. It worked brilliantly and Windows now has about 96-98% 
of the netbook OS market.

Interestly the next netbook OS battle will be Android vs Windows.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/05/first-acer-android-netbook-will-dual-boot-windows/
"Ha, and you thought that you'd be getting away from the Microsoft tax. 
Sorry -- Acer chairman JT Wang says that the first Android netbooks will 
ship with Windows in dual-boot configurations. While your first reaction 
might be to call JT a Microsoft patsy, he's not, it's smart to hedge, 
actually, since Android is unproven as a netbook OS and Wal-mart consumers 
usually don't like being surprised by computers that don't work like the ol' 
home computer. Besides, these Android netbooks seem to be targeting carriers 
as resellers so you'll like get a big fat discount when you take one home on 
contract."
0
John
7/31/2009 1:42:28 PM
marc hoffman wrote on 7/31/2009 :
> Joe,
>
>> That quote would be funnier if Bill Gates had actually said it.
>
> i don't think whether he did, or not, really affects the point, here.

Quite right.

But it would still be funnier if he had.

Oh well.  Doubt that we'll get him to now.
0
Brad
8/6/2009 2:40:39 PM
> It worked brilliantly and Windows now has about 96-98% 
> of the netbook OS market.

I just read that it is"only" 70% and that Microsoft has modified their definition of the term "Netbook". If the specs are a little bit larger, the client has to pay the full price of Windows 7.

The price is also a reason (besides security, stability and (network-)speed) why I am using a Mac today. 15 years ago Windows was the cheapest OS in the World. Now it is the most expensive OS. 
On the Mac I can install and run the 64-bit MySQL server. For Windows I have to buy and extra 64-bit Windows Vista for 309 euro's. What if I get troubles with Delphi, other apps and devices ? I have to reinstall the 32-bit version of Windows. And time is money.

Hubert Anemaat

> {quote:title=John Cash wrote:}{quote}
> "Hubert Anemaat" wrote:
> >> Why do these Mac Addicts totally neglect reality?
> >
> > Windows has still the largest marketshare, but it is decreasing.
> 
> If it's decreasing on the desktop, it certainly isn't anywhere near fast 
> enough to reach a critical mass tipping point in the near future as you 
> said.
> 
> > Why is MS still selling XP for the netbooks ?  MS wanted to stop the 
> > support for XP already a few years ago. Why didn't they do this ?
> 
> Simple, XP runs better on the less powerful netbook hardware than does Vista 
> and Microsoft really wanted to drive a stake into the heart of Linux in a 
> rapidly growing market segment that was exclusively Linux. The XP license 
> for netbooks manufacturers is limited by certain hardware restrictions and 
> priced accordingly. It worked brilliantly and Windows now has about 96-98% 
> of the netbook OS market.
> 
> Interestly the next netbook OS battle will be Android vs Windows.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/05/first-acer-android-netbook-will-dual-boot-windows/
> "Ha, and you thought that you'd be getting away from the Microsoft tax. 
> Sorry -- Acer chairman JT Wang says that the first Android netbooks will 
> ship with Windows in dual-boot configurations. While your first reaction 
> might be to call JT a Microsoft patsy, he's not, it's smart to hedge, 
> actually, since Android is unproven as a netbook OS and Wal-mart consumers 
> usually don't like being surprised by computers that don't work like the ol' 
> home computer. Besides, these Android netbooks seem to be targeting carriers 
> as resellers so you'll like get a big fat discount when you take one home on 
> contract."
0
Hubert
8/7/2009 2:34:35 PM
"Hubert Anemaat" wrote in message news:146293@forums.codegear.com...
>> It worked brilliantly and Windows now has about 96-98%
>> of the netbook OS market.
>
> I just read that it is"only" 70%...

March 2009
http://www.netbookdigest.com/2009/03/03/sad-day-for-linux-windows-netbook-marketshare-at-90/
"So much for netbooks spelling doom and gloom for Windows marketshare.  a 
study by analyst firm NPD group now lists Windows dominance of the netbook 
market at 90% instead of the 70% reported back in November."

April 2009
http://www.netbookchoice.com/2009/04/05/windows-netbook-market-share-continues-to-grow/
"Nearly exactly a month ago, we reported how the Windows operating system 
dominated netbooks sold in the US. Approximately 90 percent of netbooks sold 
during November to January ran Windows XP and the remainder Linux. It 
appears that Windows extended this dominance in February, with 96 percent of 
netbooks running Windows during February 2009 according to the latest NPD 
Retail Tracking Service data."

In the months since April, Windows share of the netbook market has grown 
even more so if you think it's"only 70%" you need to do a liitle Googling.

>...and that Microsoft has modified their definition of the term "Netbook". 
>If the specs are a little bit larger, the client has to pay the full price 
>of Windows 7.

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/070208-microsoft-eases-hardware-terms-for.html?hpg1=bn
"Under the new terms, outlined in the documents, PC makers must limit screen 
sizes to 14.1 inches and hard-drive capacity to 160G bytes. ULPCs with 
touchscreens will also be eligible. Earlier terms set in April did not allow 
touchscreens at all and limited screen sizes to 10.2 inches and hard-drive 
capacity to 80G bytes. The processors are still limited to a single-core 
chip running at no more than 1GHz, and memory is limited to 1G byte of RAM. 
"

> The price is also a reason (besides security, stability and 
> (network-)speed) why I am using a Mac today. 15 years ago Windows was the 
> cheapest OS in the World. Now it is the most expensive OS.

Apples & Oranges! Heck you can't even legally install a purchased copy of 
the Mac OS unless it's on an Apple computer. Yep, since that only leaves 
Windows and Linux (usually free), Windows is the most expensive. But what's 
your point?

> On the Mac I can install and run the 64-bit MySQL server. For Windows I 
> have to buy and extra 64-bit Windows Vista for 309 euro's. What if I get 
> troubles with Delphi, other apps and devices ? I have to reinstall the 
> 32-bit version of Windows. And time is money.

You can't run Delphi on your Mac without a copy of Windows. I really doubt 
that it makes much difference if you use either 32 or 64 bit Windows when 
running it it in a VM.

Your price argument is a strawman.
0
John
8/7/2009 4:24:04 PM
> {quote:title=Ralf Stocker wrote:}{quote}
> interesting comments...
> http://www.deltics.co.nz/blog/?p=452

The MS Windows platform is something like 85% of the entire market right now.

32-bit vs. 64-bit will bifurcate it.  It  would be so much easier to be able to just say, "Windows" rather than "32-bit" vs. "64-bit".  Talk about customer service hassles...

Mac OS X is already 64-bit.  The 64-bit Windows market will slowly grow, and if the only tools available to support it are from Microsoft, then how in the world will that benefit Delphi or Embarcadero customers in the long-run once developers get entrenched with MS tools for 64-bit apps?

Developers don't like to change environments.  Given the choice, they'll stay where they are.  But if there's no choice, like if you want 64-bit support, then you do what you gotta do.  But you don't go back.

Companies who want to focus on Total Cost of Ownership are not going to care.  MS is moving towards 64-bits, and IT will head that direction as well.  Another reason not to go with Delphi if it's not going that way.

-David
0
David
8/7/2009 4:53:18 PM
Hello,

Delphi will go that way but just not now.

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
8/8/2009 12:11:02 PM
Thanks Markus,

We 'll postpone our Delphi purchase until it is available for the Mac and Ubuntu.

Hubert


> {quote:title=Markus Humm wrote:}{quote}
> Hello,
> 
> Delphi will go that way but just not now.
> 
> Greetings
> 
> Markus
0
Hubert
8/19/2009 12:56:07 PM
> {quote:title=John Cash wrote:}{quote}

> Apples & Oranges! Heck you can't even legally install a purchased copy of 
> the Mac OS unless it's on an Apple computer. Yep, since that only leaves 
> Windows and Linux (usually free), Windows is the most expensive. But what's 
> your point?
> 

That is why I am moving to the Mac. I bought an iMac in December 2007 because I got frustrated by Windows after 25 years: the right panel of our HTML Help file was blocked by Microsoft in a network. 
The Windows update of August, 11th, 2009 disabled the e-mailing facility of my Delphi app. ("Unknown Interface"). This will not happen anymore.
I was astonished that time that a computer can be so fast, so stable, so easy. 

> You can't run Delphi on your Mac without a copy of Windows. I really doubt 
> that it makes much difference if you use either 32 or 64 bit Windows when 
> running it it in a VM.

That's why I am now investigating time in Java and Lazarus. Lazarus is making progress. They are able to develop an Object Pascal compiler for more platforms. Why aren't the Embarcadero Delphi Developer Experts able to do this ?

> Your price argument is a strawman.

Well, I made a calculation half a year ago about the Total Cost of Ownership (TCO). I 'll loose a lot of money due to waiting, waiting and waiting, crashes, virusses, and restarting Windows. 
The video's in this link hit the nail on the head: http://www.apple.com/getamac/ads/

I wish you good luck with Windows !

Hubert
0
Hubert
8/26/2009 1:26:32 PM
"Hubert Anemaat" wrote:
>> {quote:title=John Cash wrote:}{quote}
>
>> You can't run Delphi on your Mac without a copy of Windows. I really 
>> doubt
>> that it makes much difference if you use either 32 or 64 bit Windows when
>> running it it in a VM.
>
> That's why I am now investigating time in Java and Lazarus. Lazarus is 
> making progress. They are able to develop an Object Pascal compiler for 
> more platforms. Why aren't the Embarcadero Delphi Developer Experts able 
> to do this ?

I'm sure there is no technical reason they couldn't do what you wish for but 
their risking scarce technical resources without a reasonable assurance of 
an adequate return on their investment is likely the reason they view things 
differently than you do.

>> Your price argument is a strawman.
>
> Well, I made a calculation half a year ago about the Total Cost of 
> Ownership (TCO). I 'll loose a lot of money due to waiting, waiting and 
> waiting, crashes, virusses, and restarting Windows.
>
> I wish you good luck with Windows !

And I wish you good luck in abandoning Windows to become a successful 
developer of Mac and Linux applications using Java and Lazarus! :)
0
John
8/26/2009 2:47:28 PM
> {quote:title=Ralf Stocker wrote:}{quote}
> interesting comments...
> http://www.deltics.co.nz/blog/?p=452

What I think, (and I could be wrong), is that Embarcadero will release the cross-platform compiler and 64-bit, in the same release.  It only makes sense, since Mac OS is 64 bit.  I don't know about Linux.
0
Phillip
8/27/2009 4:42:17 AM
> {quote:title=Phillip Woon wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=Ralf Stocker wrote:}{quote}
> > interesting comments...
> > http://www.deltics.co.nz/blog/?p=452
> 
> It only makes sense, since Mac OS is 64 bit.  I don't know about Linux.

Linux is 64-bit.
Last week our brooker in France bought new 64-bit Vista PC (I advised him to buy a Mac). He changed it from French to Dutch, an action of several hours. After that several programs of the Control Panel did not start anymore, no update center, no user controls, etc... Awfull !
It am glad I am using (i)Macs nowadays.

Embarcadero supports Firebird since Delphi.2009. So there is hope for Delphi for the Mac !

Hubert Anemaat
0
Hubert
10/1/2009 8:40:00 AM
Hubert Anemaat a écrit :

> Last week our brooker in France bought new 64-bit Vista PC (I advised
> him to buy a Mac). He changed it from French to Dutch, an action of
> several hours. After that several programs of the Control Panel did
> not start anymore, no update center, no user controls, etc... Awfull
> ! It am glad I am using (i)Macs nowadays.

That was one feature I didn't realise about the Macs, until I got one. 
The fact that I can switch languages, from French to English and back 
again, even just for one application. As long as an app has the 
localised resources, it will run in any of the supported languages.

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [TeamB|http://www.teamb.com]
Consultant Software Engineer
0
Joanna
10/1/2009 8:48:03 AM
"Joanna Carter" wrote:
>
> That was one feature I didn't realise about the Macs, until I got one.
> The fact that I can switch languages, from French to English and back
> again, even just for one application. As long as an app has the
> localised resources, it will run in any of the supported languages.

My wife is Swedish and for years her Win-XP has been setup to switch between 
Swedish and English by simply clicking on an icon in the Notification area 
of the task bar. It's her damned Swedish keyboard that drives me crazy when 
she occasionally asks me to show her how to accomplish some task she has 
forgotten how to do. :)

The language setup is simply following directions.
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/setup/winxp/yourlanguage.mspx
0
John
10/1/2009 10:04:14 AM
John Cash a écrit :

> My wife is Swedish and for years her Win-XP has been setup to switch between 
> Swedish and English by simply clicking on an icon in the Notification area 
> of the task bar. It's her damned Swedish keyboard that drives me crazy when 
> she occasionally asks me to show her how to accomplish some task she has 
> forgotten how to do. :)

Yeah, that's great for stopping colleagues taking over my computer 
(which has a French keyboard) :-)

> The language setup is simply following directions.
> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/setup/winxp/yourlanguage.mspx

But that only changes the keyboard layout and other regional formatting 
settings, it doesn't change the language that Windows or its programs 
operate in. With a Mac, I can choose to have the whole machine run 
everything localised to any one of a dozen or so languages. Any program 
that contains the correct localisation files appears and runs in French, 
or English, or German or .....

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [TeamB|http://www.teamb.com]
Consultant Software Engineer
0
Joanna
10/1/2009 12:26:32 PM
"Joanna Carter" wrote:
> John Cash a écrit :
>
>> My wife is Swedish and for years her Win-XP has been setup to switch 
>> between
>> Swedish and English by simply clicking on an icon in the Notification 
>> area
>> of the task bar. It's her damned Swedish keyboard that drives me crazy 
>> when
>> she occasionally asks me to show her how to accomplish some task she has
>> forgotten how to do. :)
>
> Yeah, that's great for stopping colleagues taking over my computer
> (which has a French keyboard) :-)
>
>> The language setup is simply following directions.
>> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/setup/winxp/yourlanguage.mspx
>
> But that only changes the keyboard layout and other regional formatting
> settings, it doesn't change the language that Windows or its programs
> operate in.

Oh gosh, did you not read the first paragraph of that reference? :)

"Windows XP supports more than 100 languages and dialects. Typically, you 
use one primary language on your computer. However, with Windows XP, you can 
set up multiple languages, and then switch between them with just two mouse 
clicks. A multiple-language setup is useful if you often send and receive 
documents in different languages. If your computer is used in a multilingual 
household, you can configure each user account with a different language."
0
John
10/1/2009 1:17:46 PM
John Cash a écrit :

> Oh gosh, did you not read the first paragraph of that reference? :)

Yes, I did. And then, with Windows XP running, I followed the 
instructions and, when I had done adding English to my French version of 
XP, the only difference was the ability to use an English keyboard 
layout and have the English formatting of dates, numbers etc. as an 
option. All the UI still showed nothing but French menus and prompts.

Unless I missed something in Windows intuitive interface ;-)

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [TeamB|http://www.teamb.com]
Consultant Software Engineer
0
Joanna
10/1/2009 2:31:48 PM
Joanna Carter a écrit :

> Yes, I did. And then, with Windows XP running, I followed the 
> instructions and, when I had done adding English to my French version of 
> XP, the only difference was the ability to use an English keyboard 
> layout and have the English formatting of dates, numbers etc. as an 
> option. All the UI still showed nothing but French menus and prompts.
> 
> Unless I missed something in Windows intuitive interface ;-)

And, as if to prove my point, have you seen this?

http://blog.jameslick.com/?p=620

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [TeamB|http://www.teamb.com]
Consultant Software Engineer
0
Joanna
10/1/2009 2:38:00 PM
On 2009-10-01 4:40 AM, Hubert Anemaat wrote:

> Embarcadero supports Firebird since Delphi.2009. So there is hope for Delphi for the Mac !

Embarcadero sells Interbase for the Mac too.   But yes, Firebird is a 
very attractively priced option.  :-)

W
0
Warren
10/1/2009 2:52:44 PM
On 2009-10-01 4:48 AM, Joanna Carter wrote:
> That was one feature I didn't realise about the Macs, until I got one.
> The fact that I can switch languages, from French to English and back
> again, even just for one application. As long as an app has the
> localised resources, it will run in any of the supported languages.
>

Another thing you can do is switch from booting 32 bit kernel to 64 bit 
kernel, and
back again.  With Vista and Windows 7 that takes a reinstallation, or 
having two
separate bootable drives or partitions and using a boot manager to 
switch between them.    Device driver developers who need to maintain 
and test drivers for both 32 and 64 bit devices  will probably go crazy 
on Windows.  :-)

W
0
Warren
10/1/2009 2:56:22 PM
On 2009-10-01 9:17 AM, John Cash wrote:
> Oh gosh, did you not read the first paragraph of that reference? :)


That "Whoosh!" sound was something important flying 30,000 feet over 
your head.


W
0
Warren
10/1/2009 2:58:08 PM
"Joanna Carter" wrote:
> Joanna Carter a écrit :
>
>> Yes, I did. And then, with Windows XP running, I followed the
>> instructions and, when I had done adding English to my French version of
>> XP, the only difference was the ability to use an English keyboard
>> layout and have the English formatting of dates, numbers etc. as an
>> option. All the UI still showed nothing but French menus and prompts.
>>
>> Unless I missed something in Windows intuitive interface ;-)
>
> And, as if to prove my point, have you seen this?
>
> http://blog.jameslick.com/?p=620

Well of course you need to have the second langauge to install but never the 
less after installing a second language one can switch between two languages 
with a simple click or two of the mouse and which was my original point.

Explanation of the MUI architecture and features.
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb457045.aspx
BTW, it's also used in Vista and Windows 7.
0
John
10/1/2009 4:16:15 PM
"Warren Postma" wrote:
> On 2009-10-01 9:17 AM, John Cash wrote:
>> Oh gosh, did you not read the first paragraph of that reference? :)
> 
> 
> That "Whoosh!" sound was something important flying 30,000 feet over 
> your head.

Damn, so what's important about a pig flying at 30.000 feet? :)
0
John
10/1/2009 4:19:48 PM
John Cash a écrit :

> Well of course you need to have the second langauge to install but never the 
> less after installing a second language one can switch between two languages 
> with a simple click or two of the mouse and which was my original point.
> 
> Explanation of the MUI architecture and features.
> http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb457045.aspx
> BTW, it's also used in Vista and Windows 7.

I used to have a copy of the MLUI version of XP with my MSDN 
subscription. I was truly awful with plenty of places where you would be 
working in what you thought was the French version of XP and, all of a 
sudden, several system dialogs would pop up in English.

What a kludge! whereas, with OS X, you get loads of languages all 
included on the installation and the dialogs all work correctly.

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [TeamB|http://www.teamb.com]
Consultant Software Engineer
0
Joanna
10/1/2009 4:35:21 PM
"Joanna Carter" wrote:
> John Cash a écrit :
>
>> Well of course you need to have the second langauge to install but never 
>> the
>> less after installing a second language one can switch between two 
>> languages
>> with a simple click or two of the mouse and which was my original point.
>>
>> Explanation of the MUI architecture and features.
>> http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb457045.aspx
>> BTW, it's also used in Vista and Windows 7.
>
> I used to have a copy of the MLUI version of XP with my MSDN
> subscription. I was truly awful with plenty of places where you would be
> working in what you thought was the French version of XP and, all of a
> sudden, several system dialogs would pop up in English.
>
> What a kludge! whereas, with OS X, you get loads of languages all
> included on the installation and the dialogs all work correctly.

I get it, you drank the kool-aid and now Windows is evermore an ugly evil 
kluge while everything OS X is smooth as silk heavenly.

Have you decided to stop all your Windows .NET work and become a full time 
Mac developer? ;-)
0
John
10/1/2009 5:49:17 PM
Everyone, the place to advocate your favorite OS is on your MySpace
page, not here.

-- 
Craig Stuntz · Vertex Systems Corp. · Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz/
0
Craig
10/1/2009 5:57:19 PM
Joanna Carter wrote:
> 
> That was one feature I didn't realise about the Macs, until I got one. 
> The fact that I can switch languages, from French to English and back 

I think the issue is only limited to Microsoft OSes.  My Linux system 
(KDE and Gnome desktops) can also switch apps or whole desktop or whole 
OS (command line included) without issues and without restarts. Just 
tested switching between English and Afrikaans.

Windows sucks (yet again). ;-)

Graeme.
0
Graeme
10/1/2009 7:34:32 PM
John Cash a écrit :

> I get it, you drank the kool-aid and now Windows is evermore an ugly evil 
> kluge while everything OS X is smooth as silk heavenly.

Nah, Windows has always been an ugly evil kludge; it's just that we 
didn't used to have a viable, easy to use, GUI for our computers until 
relatively recently. Now, we not only have OS X, we also have better and 
better versions of Linux.

I will freely admit OS X is not without its problems, just as Linux is 
not a panacea. The main advantage of either OS X or Linux has to be the 
stability, although I chose OS X simply because my perception of Linux 
was that it was mainly for techie nerds who had the time to do fun 
things like recompiling the kernel (whatever that means).

> Have you decided to stop all your Windows .NET work and become a full time 
> Mac developer? ;-)

At the moment, I am really enjoying learning ObjectiveC and the Cocoa 
frameworks and hoping that I can find a commercial reason to put my 
new-found skills to use.

However, I am also a realist and Windows development has paid the bills 
for the last n years and .NET has given me the ability to design 
complex, powerful frameworks to make Windows application development 
simpler than ever.

Let me make it plain... I *love* working in .NET and am so glad that 
CodeGear finally decided to go the route of backing Delphi Prism; it 
finally gives the Pascal language a very needed shot in the arm to bring 
it into the 21st century as a commercial language, not just an academic one.

However, over the last five years, I have been creating OPF and MVP 
frameworks for .NET, using C#, because Delphi Prism wasn't a viable 
alternative at the time we started on the project. Had Prism been 
available in its current incarnation then, it would have kept us from 
such a close relationship with "the dark side".

And here is where I find myself thinking that those who are criticising 
me for being a Mac fan-girl for not choosing a Windows machine, are 
possibly the same people who would criticise me for using C# and .NET 
rather than Delphi, because using Visual Studio was giving in to doing 
things Microsoft's way ????

So, Microsoft provides you with the Windows OS, and that is a "good 
thing" but Microsoft provides you with Visual Studio, and that is a "bad 
thing". I get criticised for choosing OS X as my OS of choice but I also 
get criticised for choosing Visual Studio over Delphi, because it is a 
Microsoft Windows product.

CodeGear have already attempted to move into the Linux development 
market and it was met with a resounding silence. I do wonder just how 
wise it is to address the perceived Mac market, when there is already an 
established development toolset oprovided for free.

To me, that seems a similar market to Linux, where you can already 
develop for free, so why would anyone want to spend a load of money on a 
commerciall IDE?

And, as for the idea of cross-platform development, I have already 
expressed my concerns about the idea of reducing UI design down to the 
lowest common denominator and I would also point out that Mac 
development has strongly adopted OO principles in a way that separates 
UI design from coding and from database concerns; something that Delphi 
doesn't presently encourage.

My dream Delphi product would be one that fully supports binding of UI 
controls to properties of objects and that encourages and facilitates 
separation of UI from business logic from database.

And now, we are back on topic for this group :-)

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [TeamB|http://www.teamb.com]
Consultant Software Engineer
0
Joanna
10/2/2009 8:39:50 AM
> {quote:title=Craig van Nieuwkerk wrote:}{quote}
> I think the reasons Delphi 1 to 7 were so successful is because they made the kind of development people wanted to do (Windows desktop apps) much easier than other products (VB, VC++) with the end result being as good or better. In other words, Delphi kicks VB or VC++ for building Windows apps. It still does.
> 
> The problem now is that while building Windows desktop apps is still big business, building web and server apps is the real growth area. While Delphi is capable in these areas, it doesn't kick a$$ anywhere near to the degree that it does for Windows desktop apps, in fact I would say that .NET and Java really are much better for web and server app development. I don't think Delphi will be really competitive in these areas in the near/medium future.
> 
> To be successful Delphi has to focus on it's core competency, building desktop apps. Desktop apps are not that sexy any more, unless they are WPF. Young people will not find Delphi sexy but there is still a big market building desktop apps across a rang of platforms. 
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > Au contraire. I find this whole discussion a real mistake. IMHO: Delphi 1 
> > stood for making life simpler. Nowadays it's nearly impossible to make young 
> > people enthousiactic for Delphi. If we don't want the Delphi-community to 
> > decimate, we need to consider their needs and not ours. They really don't 
> > give a **** about cross platform or 64-bit. Codegear has to start "thinking 
> > sexy" again.

I agree 100%. I would be much more thrilled if, say, delphi and www.morfik.com fused (including their c# variant!) and also started targeting gwt/g.apps, iphone/android web apps, etc. Embarcadero cannot compete going head to head with the visual studio suites, real basic or some ofthe other players. They have to rethink their strategy. If they want to survive.
0
Tim
10/2/2009 10:15:06 AM
"Joanna Carter" wrote:
> John Cash a écrit :
>
> And here is where I find myself thinking that those who are criticising
> me for being a Mac fan-girl for not choosing a Windows machine, are
> possibly the same people who would criticise me for using C# and .NET
> rather than Delphi, because using Visual Studio was giving in to doing
> things Microsoft's way ????

That would not be me since I've been a VS/C#/.NET advocate since before beta 
1 was released. But I do enjoy pushing your Mac fan-girl button. ;-)

However I do not happen to share your "intense dislike" of Windows. I was an 
early adapter of Vista and carefully choose the hardware and drivers. I had 
some problems but it has steadily improved and lately I'm running Vista x64 
SP2 on an Intel Quad CPU at 3.45 GHz on a Gigabyte P45 based notherboard 
with 8GB of excellent quality matched high speed memory and an nVidia 9800GT 
512MB video system. (total cost was $660) With this latest hardware Vista 
has proven to be very fast, reliable and secure. BTW, I have never used any 
anti-virus software with Vista, since  IMO. it has a reasonable amount of 
built in safety against malware and I've never had an attack.

And as I've hinted before OS X 10.5.8 will run on my hardware same as if it 
were Apple supplied hardware. I just happen to "intensely dislike" the Mac 
GUI. ;-)

> And now, we are back on topic for this group :-)

As my good friend Rudy would say, "indeed"!
0
John
10/2/2009 1:31:26 PM
On 2009-10-01 1:57 PM, Craig Stuntz wrote:
> Everyone, the place to advocate your favorite OS is on your MySpace
> page, not here.
>
I thought non-tech was the designated place for anything rather on the 
Low end of manners. :-)

W
0
Warren
10/2/2009 1:47:35 PM
Warren Postma a écrit :

> I thought non-tech was the designated place for anything rather on the 
> Low end of manners. :-)

No, the really low stuff goes to off-topic :-)

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [TeamB|http://www.teamb.com]
Consultant Software Engineer
0
Joanna
10/2/2009 2:42:32 PM
Hello,

you need a multilingual version of Windows XP to switch UI languages.
There you can install all language packs you like/need. Then you can
switch the complete UI.

On the other hand, many apps provide a language switching capability on
their own and ship language packs for them - they often don't need any
further underlying OS support for this.

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
10/3/2009 12:46:22 PM
Markus Humm a écrit :

> you need a multilingual version of Windows XP to switch UI languages.
> There you can install all language packs you like/need. Then you can
> switch the complete UI.

I only ever got to realise that such a ML version existed when it 
appeared in my MSDN subscription but, as I have previously mentioned, 
the localisation can be somewhat patchy.

> On the other hand, many apps provide a language switching capability on
> their own and ship language packs for them - they often don't need any
> further underlying OS support for this.

But that still leaves you with applications that "might" be localised, 
running in an OS that is "usually" limited to one language.

I have found that, having an OS that *always* ships with multiple 
languages, seems to encourage a developer to consider that it might be 
worthwhile localising their apps.

I really lke the XCode/Interface Builder combination, for the way that 
it makes it so simple to lump *all* localisations in the NIB bundle 
(resources), thus allowing the developer to get on with the business of 
coding without having to consider the future, possible translation of 
the UI; as long as the code always refers to localised strings, the 
resources can be sent to a translator, worked on and simply replaced in 
the deployment bundle.

I know this is possible in Windows but, because Delphi seems to 
encourage coding in the form files, which then means it is more 
difficult to separate out the resources that need translating.

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [TeamB|http://www.teamb.com]
Consultant Software Engineer
0
Joanna
10/3/2009 1:06:27 PM
"Joanna Carter" wrote:
>
> I really lke the XCode/Interface Builder combination, for the way that
> it makes it so simple to lump *all* localisations in the NIB bundle
> (resources), thus allowing the developer to get on with the business of
> coding without having to consider the future, possible translation of
> the UI; as long as the code always refers to localised strings, the
> resources can be sent to a translator, worked on and simply replaced in
> the deployment bundle.
>
> I know this is possible in Windows but, because Delphi seems to
> encourage coding in the form files, which then means it is more
> difficult to separate out the resources that need translating.

I know it's not exactly the same as you describe but as you know, I'm a big 
Silverlight fan-boy and one of it's features is localizing it's 
applications, either in or out of browser, for the users of each targeted 
culture or locale.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc838238(VS.95).aspx

When a Windows developed SL3 app is run out of browser on Mac OS X, it has 
the proper appearance to be considered a true Mac GUI app rather than an 
ugly  mono Windows GUI app. Julian Bucknall discusses the mono GUI problem 
and ends up saying, "Our controls were designed and implemented to look good 
on Windows. I'm going to guess we would have a fairly heavy-duty bit of 
design work to make them look good on the Mac, and that's before we factor 
in the work we need to do to research and implement the Mac OSX equivalents 
to the Windows routines we're using."
http://community.devexpress.com/blogs/ctodx/archive/2009/10/02/devexpress-products-and-mono-part-1-winforms.aspx

As time progresses SL apps become more powerful and ubiquitous. An example 
is Winchester Ammunition's new online ballistics calculator which allows 
shooting and hunting enthusiasts to graphically compare the ballistics of up 
to five of their products at the same time in a cross browser/OS 
application.
http://www.winchester.com/ballistics/
0
John
10/3/2009 3:00:50 PM
Hello,

Joanna Carter wrote:

> I really lke the XCode/Interface Builder combination, for the way
> that it makes it so simple to lump all localisations in the NIB
> bundle (resources), thus allowing the developer to get on with the
> business of coding without having to consider the future, possible
> translation of the UI; as long as the code always refers to localised
> strings, the resources can be sent to a translator, worked on and
> simply replaced in the deployment bundle.
> 
> I know this is possible in Windows but, because Delphi seems to 
> encourage coding in the form files, which then means it is more 
> difficult to separate out the resources that need translating.

Ever heard of the "resourcestring" keyword? :) Also, existing strings
can easily be converted to a resourcestring with the appropriate
refactoring. Not much of a difference here.

-- 
Moritz

"Hey, it compiles! Ship it!"
0
Moritz
10/3/2009 9:42:41 PM
Reply:

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