Can Windows applications be developed with Delphi?

From the "Application Development Tools" page...

+"RAD Studio is app development for teams building true native apps for Android and iOS, and getting them to app stores and enterprises fast. Build apps using the same source codebase without sacrificing app quality, connectivity or performance. With native Android and iOS support, reach the largest addressable mobile markets in the world."+

*Not a word about Windows.*

....and the description for "RAD Studio XE 5" - +"Multi-device, true native app development for Android and iOS"+ - *Again, nothing about Windows development*.

....and the description for "Delphi XE 5" - +"Easy-to-learn app development for Android and iOS"+ - *And once again, even for Delphi, nothing about Windows development.*

From the Delphi FAQ's - +"What is Delphi?"  Answer: "Embarcadero® Delphi® XE5 is easy-to-learn app development for teams building true native apps for Android and iOS, and getting them to app stores and enterprises fast. Build apps using the same source codebase without sacrificing app quality, connectivity or performance. With native Android and iOS support, reach the largest addressable mobile markets in the world."+ - *You guessed it - absolutely NOTHING about Windows development.*

So, two questions to Embarcadero: 1) Is Delphi (or RAD Studio) intended as a tool for Windows development, and 2) if so, the why the hell isn't there a single mention of it on the basic product description pages, and not even in the damned FAQ asking "WHAT IS DELPHI?".  There is absolutely no indication to a customer interested/looking for a Windows desktop development tool that Delphi is the product to use.  I just sent a developer colleague to your website to look at Delphi.  She told me there was nothi
ng about using Delphi for Windows development, and that it looks like its a tool for Android and iOS development only.  Brilliant.  Just brilliant.

If Embarcadero is dropping Windows desktop development as the primary focus of Delphi (or from the product description pages, entirely dropping Windows as a target platform), then how about do us a favor and just say so.  This would be immensely preferable to constantly receiving the latest "last chance" upgrade offer which always seems to be followed by yet another "last chance" offer.
0
Mike
10/16/2013 10:04:58 PM
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On 10/16/2013 3:04 PM, Mike Fitzgerald wrote:
>  From the "Application Development Tools" page...

This is precisely what I mentioned a week or two ago.  Put in a purchase 
requisition for a client to get their own copy of Delphi a few months 
back for use with Windows development (Fortune 500 company), and it was 
delayed/pulled because when the purchasing department looked at the 
product it was seen as an 'app' development tool, and had to go through 
different internal channels for approval.

I had to DEMONSTRATE to the client that it was a Windows development 
tool in order to get the purchase approved.

Just ONE MORE ROADBLOCK in the way towards getting more business 
acceptance of the product (the activation scheme being another big one).

I should add, that already bit us in the butt -- a developer at one of 
my clients installed the software in their name (purchased by the 
client, though), and when the developer left the company, they couldn't 
re-install the product on the replacement developer's machine 
(unfortunately, the IT guy wiped the old machine prior to checking for 
things like this type of software).  Client had to re-purchase the 
product.  NOT a happy camper.

David Erbas-White
0
David
10/16/2013 10:15:19 PM
Mike Fitzgerald wrote:
> *Not a word about Windows.*

Wow. Had to go check to believe it. The link on the main site does
mention Windows, albeit in third place.

This is either ominous or incredibly stupid. Curious how the
cheerleaders are going to frame it.
0
Dominique
10/16/2013 10:26:52 PM
Mike wrote:

> ...and the description for "RAD Studio XE 5" - +"Multi-device, true
> native app development for Android and iOS"+ - *Again, nothing about
> Windows development*.

Actually, Windows is mentioned in the "Multi-device, true native" paragraph 
of that page.

{quote}
With RAD Studio's multi-device app development, you don't have to maintain 
separate development projects to deliver your app natively for multiple devices 
(PCs, tablets and smartphones) on multiple platforms (Android, iOS, Windows, 
and OS X).
{quote}

> ...and the description for "Delphi XE 5" - +"Easy-to-learn app
> development for Android and iOS"+ - *And once again, even for Delphi,
> nothing about Windows development.*

Same thing as above:

{quote}
When you use Delphi for multi-device app development, you don't have to maintain 
multiple development projects to deliver your app natively for multiple devices 
(PCs, tablets and smartphones) on multiple platforms (Android, iOS, Windows, 
and OS X). 
{quote}

> Is Delphi (or RAD Studio) intended as a tool for Windows development

Of course it is.  The VCL has not been dropped.  FireMonkey for Windows and 
Mac OSX has not been dropped.

> if so, the why the hell isn't there a single mention of it on the basic 
product
> description pages, and not even in the damned FAQ asking "WHAT IS
> DELPHI?".

Overzealous marketting.  Windows development is still listed on the Feature 
Matrix:

http://www.embarcadero.com/delphi-features-matrix

> If Embarcadero is dropping Windows desktop development as the primary
> focus of Delphi

It may not be a *primary* focus anymore, in leiu of cross-platform development 
(it now targets 4 platforms, with more on the way in the future), but support 
for Windows and VCL is not going away anytime soon.

--
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
0
Remy
10/16/2013 10:36:11 PM
"Dominique Willems" wrote on Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:26:52 -0700:

> This is either ominous or incredibly stupid. Curious how the
> cheerleaders are going to frame it.

It's obvious that they do not see Windows as an important part of
their marketing.  That only follows from their neglect of the Windows
in the product itself!

I think that's unfortunate.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
0
Brandon
10/16/2013 10:37:41 PM
Another example from the FAQ's:

+"What does Delphi include?"+

Answer: +"Delphi XE5 – Delphi XE5 is easy-to-learn app development for teams building true native apps for Android and iOS, and getting them to app stores and enterprises fast."+  *That's it - nothing about Windows development.*

Oh, wait, from this description, I should magically infer that one of Delphi's primary purposes is Windows development.
0
Mike
10/16/2013 10:55:00 PM
On the Delphi product page there is a grand total of ONE mention of Windows (and that mention is in parenthesis).  Check it out: [http://www.embarcadero.com/products/delphi] 

And on the Delphi FAQ pages, of the first TWENTY-FIVE questions that I tediously clicked, explaining to a customer what Delphi "is", I found just one mention of Windows development.  Maybe there's more, but I didn't see it.  Lots of iOS and Android mentions however.  Sorry, but this is pathetic if Delphi is supposed to be a Windows development tool.  Spin it how you like.

Edited by: Mike Fitzgerald on Oct 16, 2013 3:49 PM

Edited by: Mike Fitzgerald on Oct 16, 2013 3:55 PM
0
Mike
10/16/2013 10:55:32 PM
> If Embarcadero is dropping Windows desktop development as the primary focus of Delphi
> (or from the product description pages, entirely dropping Windows as a target platform),
> then how about do us a favor and just say so.  This would be immensely preferable to
> constantly receiving the latest "last chance" upgrade offer which always seems to be
> followed by yet another "last chance" offer.

I honestly don't get the sense of hurt. Ignoring Delphi for a moment, iOS and Android is where the action is at the moment, and Embarcadero have chosen to try and take a piece of it. Hence both product and marketing for the past couple of releases have been focused on mobile. In that context, why on earth would the product pages focus on Windows development?
0
Chris
10/16/2013 11:13:17 PM
Dominique Willems wrote:

> Wow. Had to go check to believe it. The link on the main site does
> mention Windows, albeit in third place.

When the CodeRage 8 replays come out, I suggest watching the opening address.

-- 
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
0
Dave
10/16/2013 11:20:47 PM
> Oh, wait, from this description, I should magically infer that one
> of Delphi's primary purposes is Windows development.

Product pages aren't really for existing customers, and if a person isn't, then the fact Delphi can be used to create iOS and Android apps is likely to be far, far more interesting than the fact it is a Win32/Win64 development tool as well. Would you seriously deny that?
0
Chris
10/16/2013 11:22:06 PM
> > Wow. Had to go check to believe it. The link on the main site does
> > mention Windows, albeit in third place.
> 
> When the CodeRage 8 replays come out, I suggest watching the opening address.

For those who didn't catch it, what were the main points...?
0
Chris
10/16/2013 11:24:19 PM
Dave Nottage wrote:
> When the CodeRage 8 replays come out, I suggest watching the opening
> address.

Can you give us a hint? They're dropping Windows in favor of
PlayStation development? There are going to be some serious FMX issues,
I tell ya!
0
Dominique
10/16/2013 11:25:51 PM
Chris Rolliston wrote:

> For those who didn't catch it, what were the main points...?

The one that comes to mind for me with respect to this thread is the explosion of the mobile OS and hardware market.
Sorry, I can't recall exact figures.

-- 
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
0
Dave
10/16/2013 11:32:16 PM
Dominique Willems wrote:

> Can you give us a hint? They're dropping Windows in favor of
> PlayStation development? There are going to be some serious FMX issues,
> I tell ya!

On the contrary; the message is that Windows is still very important. When a market such as mobile OS and hardware is
exploding (in a good way) it comes as no surprise that it is at the forefront of marketing; the same can apply to any
number of markets, including outside the software world.

-- 
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
0
Dave
10/16/2013 11:36:00 PM
"Chris Rolliston" wrote on Wed, 16 Oct 2013 16:22:06 -0700:

> Product pages aren't really for existing customers, and if a person isn't, then the fact Delphi can be used to create iOS and Android apps is likely to be far, far more interesting than the fact it is a Win32/Win64 development tool as well. Would you seriously deny that?

Exactly.  I don't understand what is so surprising about this.

Mind you, I am not thrilled that Windows development is taking such a
back seat to mobile, but, I understand it.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
0
Brandon
10/17/2013 1:01:26 AM
Maybe because 80% of the market out there is still running on a Windows based OS?

<a>http://www.netmarketshare.com/os-market-share.aspx?qprid=9</a>

Edited by: David Pratt on Oct 16, 2013 8:09 PM
0
David
10/17/2013 1:11:29 AM
"David Pratt" wrote on Wed, 16 Oct 2013 18:07:23 -0700:

> Maybe because 90% of computers out there are running a Windows based
> OS? and even more in the business subset?

But the feeling among so many is that Windows is legacy.  Windows
developers have already chosen their tools.  I wouldn't imagine
someone using .NET for Windows/business software development to even
consider moving to another development stack.  Frankly at this point I
don't see how you could go about convincing them to do that.  It makes
no sense.  And people using Delphi already know Delphi and so
marketing web pages are irrelevant.

And the energy now, right or wrong, is all in mobile.  And there *is*
a lot of desire for an "easy" way to target most mobile devices.  Now
Embarcadero has something to sell those people.  It remains to be seen
how effective the tools will be, but, what's so surprising or hard to
understand about the marketing push?  What else do you expect them to
be doing, wrt marketing, right now?

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
0
Brandon
10/17/2013 1:12:18 AM
On 10/16/2013 4:36 PM, Dave Nottage <Dave Nottage (TeamB) wrote:
> Dominique Willems wrote:
>
>> Can you give us a hint? They're dropping Windows in favor of
>> PlayStation development? There are going to be some serious FMX issues,
>> I tell ya!
>
> On the contrary; the message is that Windows is still very important. When a market such as mobile OS and hardware is
> exploding (in a good way) it comes as no surprise that it is at the forefront of marketing; the same can apply to any
> number of markets, including outside the software world.
>

Gosh, it's good to see them so far in front of the curve on this.  So, 
with the recent introduction of iOS SEVEN, they're finally STARTING to 
get going on path for mobile??? (yes, I know it was released when iOS 
SIX was out, but that opens up the whole discussion on how far behind 
the curve they will be...)

And Android was introduced in 2009 -- hmm, so they're right on time with 
that one, as well.

Any guess as to what timeframe their tools will be the same quality as 
the 'standardized' tools for iOS and Android?  Anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller???

David Erbas-White
0
David
10/17/2013 1:19:05 AM
> {quote:title=Chris Rolliston wrote:}{quote}
> > Oh, wait, from this description, I should magically infer that one
> > of Delphi's primary purposes is Windows development.
> 
> Product pages aren't really for existing customers, and if a person isn't, then the fact Delphi can be used to create iOS and Android apps is likely to be far, far more interesting than the fact it is a Win32/Win64 development tool as well. Would you seriously deny that?

Except that FireMonkey is aimed fairly and squarely at existing customers, somewhat undermining the "product info is for new customers" angle.

Nobody who didn't have an existing FireMonkey for iOS app is going to take FireMonkey for Android seriously, with it's horrendous performance, crippling architectural failings and complete lack of support for key, differentiating Android platform technologies.

The only people willing to tolerate FireMonkey are those who are already invested in the FireMonkey platform and who lack the intestinal fortitude to admit that they have been taken for a ride by Embarcadero and face some tough decisions.

Meanwhile, Delphi's only real strength is the one being completely underplayed, that of providing the best available development tool for high performance, native Win32/64 apps (by which I mean VCL based).


It is particularly ironic that should Windows Phone/RT become important, Delphi is in a complete hole.  It is utterly depressing that a tool which founded it's success on the Windows platform now counts on that platform's future failure in order for it to remain relevant.
0
Jolyon
10/17/2013 1:59:58 AM
"Jolyon Smith" wrote on Wed, 16 Oct 2013 18:59:58 -0700:

> It is particularly ironic that should Windows Phone/RT become
> important, Delphi is in a complete hole. 

This is quite true.  While the iOS (even iOS7) and Android "look and
feel" are comparatively simplistic to clone, the RT UI would not
easily be emulated.  The end result of the staggering amount of R&D
that went into RT is not likely to be replicated with an FM style.
Further, iOS7 and recent updates to Android show they are following
Microsoft's lead in touch UI advancement (though most of their
loyalists would be loath to admit it, even after iOS7 copied some
stuff from Windows Vista that Microsoft wisely dropped, and combined
it with some of Metro's best design elements).  It isn't clear that FM
styles will be up to the task of keeping current as touch UI emerges
from its primitive state into something truly well designed.

All that being said: It would take a Delphi developer very little time
and effort to discover whether or not Delphi can meet their Android
development needs.  iOS maybe a little bit more given the hardware
requirements of the platform.  It's not as if Embarcadero is pulling
the wool over anyone's eyes.  The market will easily tell whether or
not this approach will be successful, and in short order.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
0
Brandon
10/17/2013 3:42:31 AM
> {quote:title=Dominique Willems wrote:}{quote}
> Mike Fitzgerald wrote:
> > *Not a word about Windows.*
> 
> Wow. Had to go check to believe it. The link on the main site does
> mention Windows, albeit in third place.
> 
> This is either ominous or incredibly stupid. Curious how the
> cheerleaders are going to frame it.

I know how I'd frame it. +Someone+ in Embarcadero has no overly sentimental projection of their own personal identity onto Delphi and recognizes that Delphi has irretrievably lost the Windows desktop market. They're not stupid enough to believe they're going to jump up tomorrow and knock C# and Java from their perches. They're being realistic. Like I've said since I've started posting here, *no one* can make the case for why you'd choose Delphi as your tool to develop new desktop software with vs. the che
aper and open source alternatives with far better ecosystems. 

They're sliding all their chips onto mobile, and will continue to pay lip service to desktop to try to keep the existing customers until the hoped-for new customers arrive. And unlike the cheerleaders, I'll say that that move makes sense if you live in a reality in which Delphi doesn't have more developers than Java does or the other crazy things I've heard the True Believers suggest. It might not work (honestly at this point I'm inclined to believe it's already too late), but it was still the smartest th
ing to do.
0
Joseph
10/17/2013 3:47:54 AM
> {quote:title=Dominique Willems wrote:}{quote}
> Dave Nottage wrote:
> > When the CodeRage 8 replays come out, I suggest watching the opening
> > address.
> 
> Can you give us a hint? They're dropping Windows in favor of
> PlayStation development? 

It's Embarcadero. They'd start with XBox One first and get around to Playstation 4 later after it massively outsells the new XBox. :-)
0
Joseph
10/17/2013 3:49:12 AM
> {quote:title=Chris Rolliston wrote:}{quote}
> > If Embarcadero is dropping Windows desktop development as the primary focus of Delphi
> > (or from the product description pages, entirely dropping Windows as a target platform),
> > then how about do us a favor and just say so.  This would be immensely preferable to
> > constantly receiving the latest "last chance" upgrade offer which always seems to be
> > followed by yet another "last chance" offer.
> 
> I honestly don't get the sense of hurt. Ignoring Delphi for a moment, iOS and Android is where the action is at the moment, and Embarcadero have chosen to try and take a piece of it. Hence both product and marketing for the past couple of releases have been focused on mobile. In that context, why on earth would the product pages focus on Windows development?

Maybe because it remains the only platform that is /fully/ supported by Delphi ?

I suspect that the lack of support for /mobile/ Windows platforms is perhaps the single biggest reason for not drawing attention to "Windows" support in the marketing materials.  If "Windows" were to be more prominently mentioned alongside Android and iOS then the marketing materials would be forced to constantly clarify that "Windows support" does not extend to RT or Phone.

It's never a good look to have to acknowledge the things your product cannot do.
0
Jolyon
10/17/2013 4:06:59 AM
Jolyon Smith wrote:

> Maybe because it remains the only platform that is fully supported by Delphi ?

If that's a comparison of what APIs are available for the platform against what Delphi supports out of the box, then it
is wrong, since there are a plethora of APIs for Windows not supported by Delphi out of the box.

Considering the timeframe of the release of the Delphi versions that support the OS's they target, I expect the amount
of support for each would be comparable.

As with other versions of Delphi, it is still possible to use those APIs.

-- 
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
0
Dave
10/17/2013 4:19:38 AM
> *Not a word about Windows.*

Well, TBH they don't seem to be placing much efforts in supporting 
Windows in their new libraries, cf. the "dancing edit box", dating from 
XE2, and still not fixed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q5YeBLeVaY
(just run an FMX application on a machine with no hardware acceleration, 
such as a business machines with old drivers, an RDP session, or if you 
force GDI+ usage in the source code)
Or the glaring TEdit mouse selection bug introduced in XE5 release...

Also they don't support Windows Phone or Modern UI, so that's another 
reason not to mention Windows too much.

Eric
0
Eric
10/17/2013 6:49:12 AM
> Maybe because it remains the only platform that is /fully/ supported by Delphi ?

Focusing on iOS and Android (especially the 'and') just seems clearer marketing to me...

> I suspect that the lack of support for /mobile/ Windows platforms is perhaps the
> single biggest reason for not drawing attention to "Windows" support in the
> marketing materials.

While I hardly think it's the 'biggest' reason, I guess that might be a small secondary one. Even so... it just seems obvious to me that product pages would heavily emphasise what has been the main focus of the past year's new releases.
0
Chris
10/17/2013 10:23:50 AM
> the message is that Windows is still very important. 

Last year the message was that common code across all projects was very important. 

/Matthew Jones/
0
Matthew
10/17/2013 11:09:59 AM
> And Android was introduced in 2009 -- hmm, so they're right on time with 
> that one, as well.

Your sarcasm is misplaced. The success of Android wasn't a no-brainer, and more importantly, Delphi was a purely Windows desktop-only development tool at that point. Getting from there to selling Delphi as a cross platform app development tool four years later (when Android in particular is still very much growing) seems pretty good going to me (arguably too good).  Surely you're not seriously suggesting they should have pushed things out even quicker?
0
Chris
10/17/2013 12:01:24 PM
Chris Rolliston wrote:
> Your sarcasm is misplaced.

Considering how the Windows developer has been treated since XE2, there
can never be enough sarcasm. Of course, no one wants to hurt the
feelings of all the company representatives who monitor these groups
with great concern and interest, and if we had a company song, we'd all
be singing it with joy, like you seem to suggest. Customers, be quiet.
0
Dominique
10/17/2013 12:22:53 PM
> Except that FireMonkey is aimed fairly and squarely at existing customers,

Why do you think that? FMX is a key feature of the way platforms beyond Windows are being targeted... and the point of targeting iOS and Android in the first place is clearly to try and grow the business.

> Nobody who didn't have an existing FireMonkey for iOS app is going to take
> FireMonkey for Android seriously, with it's horrendous performance, crippling
> architectural failings and complete lack of support for key, differentiating
> Android platform technologies.

That's an argument about the actual product though, not the marketing of it. If a company has put out a product that aims to create single source Android and iOS apps... then in 2013, it will surely emphasise the fact in its marketing - that's all I'm saying.

> It is particularly ironic that should Windows Phone/RT become important,
> Delphi is in a complete hole.

That's a big 'should'. Currently I wouldn't see it a good idea for Embarcadero to invest in Windows Phone and WinRT, though my thoughts may have been different if the iOS and Android turn had never happened.
0
Chris
10/17/2013 12:25:34 PM
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

> *no one* can make the case for why you'd choose Delphi as your tool
> to develop new desktop software with vs. the che aper and open source
> alternatives with far better ecosystems.

I can.  Watch:

You should use Delphi for all your desktop development because it has a
complete, powerful UI framework for building powerful UI apps.  It also
has a robust, complete data access framework that makes accessing
virtually any database a piece of cake by writing no or next to no
code.  You get all this power and acces while still being able to
directly access the Windows API if you need to.  It all is wrapped up
by a blazingly fast native code compiler that makes developing desktop
apps fast, easy, and productive.  All of that is worth paying for.

There, I made the case, making your statement false.

-- 
Nick
Delphi Programming is fun.
0
Nick
10/17/2013 1:30:16 PM
Jolyon Smith wrote:

> It is particularly ironic that should Windows Phone/RT become
> important,

HAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHHAA.

Sorry, lost it there for a second.

-- 
Nick
Delphi Programming is fun.
0
Nick
10/17/2013 1:40:32 PM
Jolyon Smith wrote:

> Except that FireMonkey is aimed fairly and squarely at existing
> customers,

I'd say that is not at all true.  FireMonkey is squarely aimed at new
customers by providing them with mobile development solutions.



-- 
Nick
Delphi Programming is fun.
0
Nick
10/17/2013 1:49:49 PM
Jolyon Smith wrote:

> It's never a good look to have to acknowledge the things your product
> cannot do.

Jolyon -- you do know that the RO Evangelist position is filled, right?

-- 
Nick
Delphi Programming is fun.
0
Nick
10/17/2013 1:57:55 PM
"Nick Hodges" wrote on Thu, 17 Oct 2013 06:40:32 -0700:

> Jolyon Smith wrote:
> 
>> It is particularly ironic that should Windows Phone/RT become
>> important,
> 
> HAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHHAA.
> 
> Sorry, lost it there for a second.

Get over it, friend.

Microsoft has been building up to this for about a decade now.  They
have billions of dollars in cash for marketing and essentially own the
desktop market and are wisely using it to advance their mobile space.
Their mobile UI is far superior to Android and iOS.  And did I mention
they have billions in cash to spend on marketing?  You like marketing,
right?

I can certainly see the valid arguments saying Microsoft won't
succeed, but it's foolish to simply laugh them off.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
0
Brandon
10/17/2013 2:03:52 PM
Nick Hodges wrote:
> HAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHHAA.

That kind of intelligent bravery reminds me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIC8oxIyFtk&feature=youtu.be&t=9m14s
0
Dominique
10/17/2013 2:04:13 PM
"Nick Hodges" wrote on Thu, 17 Oct 2013 06:57:55 -0700:

> Jolyon Smith wrote:
> 
>> It's never a good look to have to acknowledge the things your product
>> cannot do.
> 
> Jolyon -- you do know that the RO Evangelist position is filled, right?

LOL.  He has a point, Jolyon; your blog reads like someone who has had
a religious conversion. :-)

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
0
Brandon
10/17/2013 2:05:09 PM
Brandon Staggs wrote:
> I can certainly see the valid arguments saying Microsoft won't
> succeed, but it's foolish to simply laugh them off.

+1

And if they don't fail, that single Windows-specialized tool vendor is
going to have one heck of a huge edge on the rest.
0
Dominique
10/17/2013 2:06:33 PM
Yes.
0
Robert
10/17/2013 2:17:49 PM
Well Nick you made a very strong case.

Now I'm sure that the next visitor to Embarcadero.com who might be interested in developing Windows desktop applications with Delphi will click "Resources", then "Embarcadero Developer Network", then "Resources" again, then "Developer Forums", then "Delphi", then "Non-Technical", then find my question buried among thousands of threads, then wade through the comments to my question, and then find your sterling case for why someone would use Delphi as the best tool for Windows development.  What a fantastic
 way to market Delphi to Windows developers - much better than putting that information on the product information page or the product FAQ page.

You're right, you win.
0
Mike
10/17/2013 2:20:31 PM
Brandon Staggs wrote:

> I can certainly see the valid arguments saying Microsoft won't
> succeed, but it's foolish to simply laugh them off.

I myself cannot see any path to success for them in the Phone/Tablet
market.

I could be wrong, sure.  But I don't think so.

-- 
Nick
Delphi Programming is fun.
0
Nick
10/17/2013 2:20:50 PM
Mike Fitzgerald wrote:

> 
> You're right, you win.

Not quite sure of your point.

I agree that the mobile marketing message shouldn't drown out the
Windows message.

-- 
Nick
Delphi Programming is fun.
0
Nick
10/17/2013 2:33:22 PM
> complete, powerful UI framework for building powerful UI apps.  It also

So powerful it cannot access Windows 8 "Metro" UI... just ape it with a skin.

> has a robust, complete data access framework that makes accessing

Which is only available in Enterprise edition and beyond... which is pretty expensive.

> directly access the Windows API if you need to.  It all is wrapped up

As long as you import the new ones, because Delphi headers imports are always behind... and can't access RT API, anyway.

> by a blazingly fast native code compiler that makes developing desktop
> apps fast, easy, and productive.  All of that is worth paying for.

Which is crippled by an RTL that is going to be slower and slower in the hands of poor developers, and some silly changes to the language...

.... and today Windows is also a strong *server* OS. But Embarcadero can only think about the desktop....
0
Luigi
10/17/2013 2:48:00 PM
Do you believe that non-Delphi developers will ever consider Delphi for mobile development? I think very, very few will.

While Delphi does still make a lot of sense for Windows native development (despite the ongoing efforts to cripple it as much as Embarcadero can) - and it is still a strong selling point. The product page should state it very well, and in a very visible way.

I've suggested to add "tabs" like "Delphi for Windows developers", "Delphi for OsX developers", "Delphi for mobile developers" and so on, to show it's a multiplatform tool. But it looks the site mantainers have even less will to work than the RTL mantainers, they can cobble together two paragraphs and that's enough for them - why should they spend more time to explain what the product is capable of? After all everybody knows Delphi, don't they?
0
Luigi
10/17/2013 2:53:32 PM
I wonder if you're paid by Embarcadero for each post you write supporting them blindly...
0
Luigi
10/17/2013 3:22:52 PM
Oh.
0
Mike
10/17/2013 3:24:16 PM
Luigi Sandon wrote:

> 
> I wonder if you're paid by Embarcadero for each post you write
> supporting them blindly...

You think I support them blindly?  Seriously?  Are you aware of my
history with the company?  Do you

I'm just try to be tactful about my criticisms.  Something you might
consider.

I myself find that respectful, considered criticisms in the right
forums can be very effective.  I myself have also found that being
obnoxious and insulting is very ineffective.

YMMV, of course -- do as you please, but I know what I like to do when
I'm not pleased with what EMBT is doing.

No need to wonder, by the way.  I'm not paid by the post.

-- 
Nick
Delphi Programming is fun.
0
Nick
10/17/2013 3:29:21 PM
> Their mobile UI is far superior to Android and iOS.  And did I mention
http://9to5mac.com/2013/10/11/ios-7-tops-2013-mobile-os-user-experience-benchmarks/
0
Mike
10/17/2013 7:09:04 PM
>
> I could be wrong, sure.  But I don't think so.
>
Their "white box" approach didn't work too well and now they are going 
to try apple's boutique approach.  Probably too late though.  They are 
getting squeezed at both ends from two companies with different approaches.

They should monetize office and server/azure by building better support 
for them in ios and android.
0
Mike
10/17/2013 7:15:52 PM
> Do you believe that non-Delphi developers will ever consider Delphi
> for mobile development?

All I have commented on is my surprise at the OP's (and others') apparent sense of hurt that Embarcadero is currently emphasising Delphi's iOS and Android support.

> I think very, very few will.

XE2's iOS support generated a reasonable bit of interest. Whether that was a good thing in the long run I'll leave others to speculate on...
0
Chris
10/17/2013 7:28:00 PM
"Mike Margerum" wrote on Thu, 17 Oct 2013 12:09:04 -0700:

>> Their mobile UI is far superior to Android and iOS.  And did I mention
> http://9to5mac.com/2013/10/11/ios-7-tops-2013-mobile-os-user-experience-benchmarks/

"The methodology is not without its controversy"

No kidding.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
0
Brandon
10/17/2013 9:27:46 PM
> Windows in their new libraries, cf. the "dancing edit box", dating from 
> XE2, and still not fixed


is that maybe occuring only with a certain font size in use?
(i.e try selecting a different font size, especially if that is set at run time)
0
Brian
10/17/2013 9:30:07 PM
>I could be wrong, sure. But I don't think so.

Win RT maybe but now that the vendors are ready for low cost ($300) full Win 8.1 tablets?
(some with a full version of  Microsoft Office Home & Student 2013)

I'm almost sure you can't resist soon ;-)

Acer
http://reviews.cnet.com/2300-3126_7-10018647-2.html

Lenovo
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2054399/lenovo-shows-off-an-8-inch-bay-trail-t-tablet-the-miix2.html

Toshiba
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2048166/toshiba-intros-new-satellites-the-nd15t-notebook-encore-tablet-and-click-detachable.html

I could be wrong, sure. But I don't think so.
0
Robert
10/18/2013 8:19:58 AM
> is that maybe occuring only with a certain font size in use?

Occurs with the default font size.

And IIRC the blogs from Mozilla, all small font sizes were affected in 
one way or another.

Eric
0
Eric
10/18/2013 8:33:41 AM
Mike Fitzgerald wrote:

> From the "Application Development Tools" page...

Yeah, that could be worded better.

-- 
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
0
Bruce
10/18/2013 9:49:28 AM
Robert Triest wrote:

> I could be wrong, sure. But I don't think so.

Time will tell.  

BTW, th $300 Surface tablets aren't full blown Windows machines.  



-- 
Nick
Delphi Programming is fun.
0
Nick
10/18/2013 11:00:29 AM
> BTW, th $300 Surface tablets aren't full blown Windows machines. 

Please explain, maybe I'm missing something.

"The newly announced W4 has a better screen, faster processor, ships with 
Windows 8.1, and at $299 comes in about $50 cheaper. Acer is bringing a full 
Windows 8.1 tablet to the market for $299. The new W4 upgrades to an 1,280x800-pixel 
IPS screen, houses a Bay Trail CPU, and comes with the very latest version 
of Windows -- 8.1 -- installed."
0
Robert
10/18/2013 11:14:18 AM
Robert Triest wrote:

> Please explain, maybe I'm missing something.

I stand corrected.

-- 
Nick
Delphi Programming is fun.
0
Nick
10/18/2013 2:31:11 PM
"Nick Hodges" wrote on Fri, 18 Oct 2013 04:00:29 -0700:

> Robert Triest wrote:
> 
>> I could be wrong, sure. But I don't think so.
> 
> Time will tell.  
> 
> BTW, th $300 Surface tablets aren't full blown Windows machines.

No, they are tablets.

I've been playing with Windows 8.1 on a tablet today.  It's stunning
how far advanced the UI is compared to Android.  Android is certainly
improving (and both Android and iOS are following the MS lead with
flattening the UI, etc), but man, Android has a *long* way to go to
catch up.  (And yes, I use both -- have a Nexus 7 as well.)

Of course that doesn't mean MS will succeed.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
0
Brandon
10/18/2013 4:06:35 PM
"Robert Triest" wrote on Fri, 18 Oct 2013 04:14:18 -0700:

> Please explain, maybe I'm missing something.

Oops!  I was thinking of a different device, too. :-)  All the better.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
0
Brandon
10/18/2013 4:07:11 PM
Dominique Willems wrote:

> Chris Rolliston wrote:
> > Your sarcasm is misplaced.
> 
> Considering how the Windows developer has been treated since XE2,

He has been treated very kindly, and many optimizations have been made
to the Win64 code. He may not have gotten a lot of new stuff, but well,
there is not much new stuff to make.
-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Be nice to people on your way up because you meet them on your 
 way down." -- Jimmy Durante
0
Rudy
10/21/2013 10:10:54 AM
Luigi Sandon wrote:

> Do you believe that non-Delphi developers will ever consider Delphi
> for mobile development? I think very, very few will.

ISTM that you are wrong. 

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Woman was God's second mistake."
 -- Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900)
0
Rudy
10/21/2013 10:12:06 AM
> but well, there is not much new stuff to make.

Joke?

Eric
0
Eric
10/21/2013 10:17:50 AM
Eric Grange wrote:
> > but well, there is not much new stuff to make.
> 
> Joke?

Yes. Why aren't you on the floor?
0
Dominique
10/21/2013 10:24:10 AM
Eric Grange wrote:

> > but well, there is not much new stuff to make.
> 
> Joke?

More or less. 

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"In the 1980s capitalism triumphed over communism. In the 1990s
 it triumphed over democracy."
 -- David Korten
0
Rudy
10/21/2013 10:25:41 AM
> More or less.

More xor less?

Eric
0
Eric
10/21/2013 1:36:27 PM
Eric Grange wrote:

> > More or less.
> 
> More xor less?

Geek! <g>


-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for
 trivial reasons."
 -- Bertrand Russell
0
Rudy
10/21/2013 3:26:05 PM
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