32-Bit on 64-Bit

I have an app written in D7 that refuses to run on XP Pro x64 or Vista x64.  It dies with "The application has encountered a problem and must close..." and it does this before anything shows.  The app doesn't do anything particularly fancy but it does use 125+ forms.  I've done about all I know to do make it UAC compliant.  In trying to figure out where the problem might be, I put a MessageDlg call as the first statement in the dpr and even that doesn't display, so I'm thinking there's something going on 
during initialization of one of the 'used' units but, with my admittedly meager knowledge, I can't spot anything. 

Can someone point me in the direction I should be looking?  Are there known issues that I should be investigating? 

Thanks 
Herrs
0
Harold
8/16/2008 1:28:19 PM
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"Harold Schwartz" wrote
>I have an app written in D7 that refuses to run on XP Pro x64 or 
>Vista x64.  It dies with "The application has encountered a problem 
>and must close..."

That's often an indication that Data Execution Prevention has killed 
your app. You might want to check if Data Execution Prevention is only 
turned on for "essential Windows programs.." (the default on 32bit, 
but I'm not sure for 64bit): My Computer | Advanced System Settings - 
select Advanced tab, and click on Settings button in Performance 
section, then click on Data Execution Prevention tab.

How to fix it, should it be a DEP issue, is of course more 
problemmatic - at least for me, as I would have no idea :)

Nigel
0
Nigel
8/17/2008 12:42:17 AM
Harold Schwartz wrote:

> Can someone point me in the direction I should be looking?  Are there
> known issues that I should be investigating?


For me this has been things such as:

Writing to a file in the local app directory
Starting the older win32 style help


Does it go away if you do right click run as administrator?


-- 
Liz the Brit
Delphi things I have released: http://www.xcalibur.co.uk/DelphiThings
0
Liz
8/17/2008 8:17:21 AM
> That's often an indication that Data Execution Prevention has killed 
> your app. You might want to check if Data Execution Prevention is only 
> turned on for "essential Windows programs.." (the default on 32bit, 
> but I'm not sure for 64bit): My Computer | Advanced System Settings - 
> select Advanced tab, and click on Settings button in Performance 
> section, then click on Data Execution Prevention tab.
> 
> How to fix it, should it be a DEP issue, is of course more 
> problemmatic - at least for me, as I would have no idea :)
> 
> Nigel

I checked and DEP is turned on for "essential Windows programs" only.

I ran across a good blog on DEP and how it operates on x64 versions of Windows.  It was a good read for me because I didn't know much about DEP.  The fellow who wrote the blog is with Microsoft, so I assume he knows his stuff.

http://blogs.technet.com/robert_hensing/archive/2007/04/04/dep-on-vista-explained.aspx
 
After reading his bit regarding hardware DEP, I thought that might be the cause even with software DEP turned on only for "essential Windows programs".  But no go - the x64 machine didn't have a DEP-aware processor.

I also ran the application on an XP x86 machine with DEP turned on for all programs and the app didn't miss a beat.

So, I keep looking...

Thanks for the help Nigel,
Harold
0
Harold
8/18/2008 5:28:55 PM
> For me this has been things such as:
> 
> Writing to a file in the local app directory
> Starting the older win32 style help
> 
> 
> Does it go away if you do right click run as administrator?
> 
> 
> -- 
> Liz the Brit
> Delphi things I have released: http://www.xcalibur.co.uk/DelphiThings

The application isn't writing to the local app directory and it uses html help.

I'd suspect that this might happen on a Vista machine since everyone on a Vista machine runs as a standard user unless elevated to administrator.  But, this is also happening on an XP x64 system where the user is logged on as an administrator.

I'm beginning to think that x86 emulation on the x64 OS isn't all that great.

Thanks for the help Liz,
Harold
0
Harold
8/18/2008 5:41:13 PM
I know it might sound obvious, but have you tried running it under a debugger on a Vista64 machine?  I currently use CRS2007 on Vista64 with no problems, and our app is 32-bit and also runs fine on Vista64.  I have only ever run into one problem with the 32-on-64 system in Vista64, and I that was to do with resuming the debugger in a certain situation.  I think it's unlikely it's the cause of the problem.

I have had similar symptoms on a computer with both BDS2006 and C++Builder 6 both installed.  The problem turned out to be that when the application was built in the more recent one of the pair of IDEs, when it ran it loaded the earlier version's RTL DLLs - goodness knows why, I'm afraid this was a long time ago and I can't remember the cause.  If your program is doing something like that it will cause no end of errors and your app will probably not get very far before it dies.  Luckily you can see if thi
s is happening in a debugger quite easily by looking at the call stack or which libraries are loaded.

I have also once had a similar problem where the program could not find a DLL it needed when it was being loaded, and for some reason the normal dialog never got shown and instead it crashed.  I cannot remember the exact cause with that either, I'm afraid.

Another idea: you said your app uses 125+ forms.  Are these all auto-created at startup, or do you create and destroy them as desired?  If they're all autocreated, that's a lot!  Perhaps there's something different on Vista64 that is failing with this many forms and the associated resources.  I'm only guessing wildly though.

Hope that helps!

David


> {quote:title=Harold Schwartz wrote:}{quote}
> I'd suspect that this might happen on a Vista machine since everyone on a Vista machine runs as a standard user unless elevated to administrator.  But, this is also happening on an XP x64 system where the user is logged on as an administrator.
> 
> I'm beginning to think that x86 emulation on the x64 OS isn't all that great.
0
David
8/21/2008 7:12:21 AM
Harold Schwartz wrote:

> I'd suspect that this might happen on a Vista machine since everyone
> on a Vista machine runs as a standard user unless elevated to
> administrator.  But, this is also happening on an XP x64 system where
> the user is logged on as an administrator.

yes but vistas "administrator" still might do different if you "run as
administrator" as it turns off some of the internal paranoia..

-- 
Liz the Brit
Delphi things I have released: http://www.xcalibur.co.uk/DelphiThings
0
Liz
8/21/2008 8:33:43 PM
> {quote:title=David M wrote:}{quote}
> I know it might sound obvious, but have you tried running it under a debugger on a Vista64 machine?  

I have a big problem in that I don't have a Vista64 machine, nor do I have an XP64 machine.  I had two reports on this problem.  The first person was trying to run on both an XP64 machine and a Vista64 machine and described the exact same problem on both.  The second person was trying to run on a Vista64 machine and also saw the same thing.  The person who had the problem on the XP and Vista machines is interested in solving the problem and, so far, has run any modified version I post for him as well as t
esting the various test scenarios that I pass along.  All to no effect.  I realize that your suggestion to run under a debugger is a good one, but for now it's out for me.

> 
> Another idea: you said your app uses 125+ forms.  Are these all auto-created at startup, or do you create and destroy them as desired?  If they're all autocreated, that's a lot!  Perhaps there's something different on Vista64 that is failing with this many forms and the associated resources.  I'm only guessing wildly though.

All of the forms except the main form are created and destroyed as needed.

Thanks for your suggestions,
Harold
0
Harold
8/21/2008 9:40:04 PM
> {quote:title=Harold Schwartz wrote:}{quote}
> After reading his bit regarding hardware DEP, I thought that might be the cause even with software DEP turned on only for "essential Windows programs".  But no go - the x64 machine didn't have a DEP-aware processor.


That is impossible.

DEP was one of the features introduced with the first 64-bit CPU, the AMD 
Opteron.

You can use Process Explorer from SysInternals to look at DEP status for all 
processes running. (http://sysinternals.com/)

Anything in the Event viewer about the crash?

Tried running it in the debugger? This would be a good time to install a 
proper OS on your development machine. Why the heck aren't you running a 
64-bit OS at this point in time?!? (A good developer PC today has _at least_ 
4GB worth of memory -- how can you utilize that without a 64-bit OS?) 
Grrrr...

Fail that... Buy madExcept. (http://madshi.net/) Say goodbye to mysterious 
crashes that you can't figure out. You will save an incredible amount of 
time wasted on troubleshooting!

-- 
Rune
0
Rune
8/26/2008 2:09:16 PM
> {quote:title=Liz Kimber wrote:}{quote}
> Harold Schwartz wrote:
> 
> > I'd suspect that this might happen on a Vista machine since everyone
> > on a Vista machine runs as a standard user unless elevated to
> > administrator.  But, this is also happening on an XP x64 system where
> > the user is logged on as an administrator.
> 
> yes but vistas "administrator" still might do different if you "run as
> administrator" as it turns off some of the internal paranoia..
> 
> -- 
> Liz the Brit
> Delphi things I have released: http://www.xcalibur.co.uk/DelphiThings

We tried this approach on Vista x64 and still got the error.

This app uses some third party components and I'm thinking that the problem must surely lie in an initialization section in one of those components.

I had someone tell me that there are known problems in the D7 VCL with apps running on x64 but ,in all of my Google searches, I've not been able to confirm it.

Thanks for the suggestions, Liz.
0
Harold
8/26/2008 2:13:55 PM
Harold Schwartz wrote:

> We tried this approach on Vista x64 and still got the error.
> 
> This app uses some third party components and I'm thinking that the
> problem must surely lie in an initialization section in one of those
> components.
> 
> I had someone tell me that there are known problems in the D7 VCL
> with apps running on x64 but ,in all of my Google searches, I've not
> been able to confirm it.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions, Liz.


Check with filemon and regmon see if you can see what its blocking or
doing..


-- 
Liz the Brit
Delphi things I have released: http://www.xcalibur.co.uk/DelphiThings
0
Liz
8/26/2008 3:50:49 PM
> {quote:title=Rune Moberg wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=Harold Schwartz wrote:}{quote}
> > After reading his bit regarding hardware DEP, I thought that might be the cause even with software DEP turned on only for "essential Windows programs".  But no go - the x64 machine didn't have a DEP-aware processor.
> 
> 
> That is impossible.
> 
> DEP was one of the features introduced with the first 64-bit CPU, the AMD 
> Opteron.

Yes, you are correct.  This was on XP x64 and DEP was on for "essential Windows programs" only.

 
> Tried running it in the debugger? This would be a good time to install a 
> proper OS on your development machine. Why the heck aren't you running a 
> 64-bit OS at this point in time?!? (A good developer PC today has _at least_ 
> 4GB worth of memory -- how can you utilize that without a 64-bit OS?) 
> Grrrr...

When Embarcadero comes out with a 64-Bit Delphi, then I'll switch to a 64-Bit OS.  Meooww...

> 
> Fail that... Buy madExcept. (http://madshi.net/) Say goodbye to mysterious 
> crashes that you can't figure out. You will save an incredible amount of 
> time wasted on troubleshooting!

Interesting.  I've just been exploring that option, looking at EurekaLog and madExcept.  I don't want to start a free-for-all in this thread, but do you (or anyone else) have an opinion as to the good/bad points of these two utilities or other similar utilities?  Or, are they equally capable?

Harold
0
Harold
8/27/2008 1:23:49 AM
> {quote:title=Harold Schwartz wrote:}{quote}
> I had someone tell me that there are known problems in the D7 VCL with apps running on x64 but ,in all of my Google searches, I've not been able to confirm it.


There was an issue with ownerdrawing certain Win32 common controls. The VCL passed along the wrong handle, and under x86 that handle happened to be identical to the window handle, so everything seemed to work... But it was a VCL bug, and there were possibly others.

But all that resulted in (for "my" application), was blank captions in a tab control. Certainly not a failure to load.

Oh... We also had an issue with one of our own DLLs. It loaded an OS DLL in the wrong initialization section. Vista's version of the DLL was stricter, and we had to modify our DLL to do things the right way. But it never affected XP x64 though.
0
Rune
8/27/2008 9:14:47 AM
> {quote:title=Harold Schwartz wrote:}{quote}
> Interesting.  I've just been exploring that option, looking at EurekaLog and madExcept.  I don't want to start a free-for-all in this thread, but do you (or anyone else) have an opinion as to the good/bad points of these two utilities or other similar utilities?  Or, are they equally capable?


I have no idea. 

But I have been very happy with madExcept, and see no reason to change.

At this point, either one will provide you with much more clues than you currently have. I don't see how you can go wrong. 

....and afaik it is possible to download madExcept and do a testrun before you buy.

Liz' idea of checking Process Monitor's log is also good. (Liz: RegMon and FileMon have been combined into a single product now)

Nothing beats a debugger though. Even though Delphi is still (in the year 2008 no less! What were Borland/CodeGear thinking?!? A typical ID ten T error) 32-bit only, it doesn't mean it won't run just fine under a proper OS.
0
Rune
8/27/2008 9:23:06 AM
Hi
> {quote:title=Harold Schwartz wrote:}{quote}
> I have an app written in D7 that refuses to run on XP Pro x64 or Vista x64.

Is source code available? if so why not to debug it with delphi on x64 platform and find the place of trouble?
0
Werewolf
8/27/2008 1:32:50 PM
> {quote:title=Liz Kimber wrote:}{quote}
> Harold Schwartz wrote:
> 
> > We tried this approach on Vista x64 and still got the error.
> > 
> > This app uses some third party components and I'm thinking that the
> > problem must surely lie in an initialization section in one of those
> > components.
> > 
> > I had someone tell me that there are known problems in the D7 VCL
> > with apps running on x64 but ,in all of my Google searches, I've not
> > been able to confirm it.
> > 
> > Thanks for the suggestions, Liz.
> 
> 
> Check with filemon and regmon see if you can see what its blocking or
> doing..
> 
> 
> -- 
> Liz the Brit
> Delphi things I have released: http://www.xcalibur.co.uk/DelphiThings

Process Monitor gives a bewildering array of data, but after filtering much of the chaff, I was able to confirm where the application was writing files and, as I had thought, all is well in that area. (See my reply above to Rune...)

Thanks for the tip, Liz
0
Harold
9/3/2008 6:49:14 PM
> {quote:title=Rune Moberg wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=Harold Schwartz wrote:}{quote}
> > Interesting.  I've just been exploring that option, looking at EurekaLog and madExcept.  I don't want to start a free-for-all in this thread, but do you (or anyone else) have an opinion as to the good/bad points of these two utilities or other similar utilities?  Or, are they equally capable?
> 
> 
> I have no idea. 
> 
> But I have been very happy with madExcept, and see no reason to change.
> 
> At this point, either one will provide you with much more clues than you currently have. I don't see how you can go wrong. 
> 
> ...and afaik it is possible to download madExcept and do a testrun before you buy.
> 
> Liz' idea of checking Process Monitor's log is also good. (Liz: RegMon and FileMon have been combined into a single product now)
> 
> Nothing beats a debugger though. Even though Delphi is still (in the year 2008 no less! What were Borland/CodeGear thinking?!? A typical ID ten T error) 32-bit only, it doesn't mean it won't run just fine under a proper OS.

I decided to give EurakaLog a try and that was the answer.  I'll be using EurekaLog from now on.  EurekaLog let me directly to the line of code causing the exception and, as I had suspected, it was in the Initialization section.  The problem was a call to the API function GlobalMemoryStatus.  After seeing that, I checked on MSDN for that function and they state that the function will produce an overflow on systems with more than 4GB memory.  I removed that function call and the problem is solved.

Thanks for the input,
Harold
0
Harold
9/3/2008 6:57:45 PM
Reply:

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