Why I should use PowerBuilder

I have used PB for 3.5 years now - I would not go back to VB (unless
required by our client).  Which is what may happen...

I have a design meeting with an IT group to standardize their software
applications.  The IT group works for a health authority who has taken the
initative to re-write all their current applications in one common
programming language.  I feel that PB is their best option but I can not
find anything around that says...

PB is better than <enter other tool> becuase ...

Unfortunately, most of the people I will be meeting with have a MS
background and use VB for their development.  What I need to be able to do
is when they ask 'What about VB, Java, VB.Net,...' I need to have a comment
other than 'How about that datawindow...'.  There will be technical and non
technical staff present - so I need to convience the non-technical
members...

Does anybody know of or have a link to a page that says PB has a history
of...

Thanks.

PS:
I have taken the list of PB applications from the Futures Discusion Forum...
--
Jeff


0
Jeff
2/11/2003 9:39:05 PM
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Gee, what a charming old-fashioned question!  Rewrite everything in a "common
programming language".  Now, what would that be?  Java?  PB?  Javascript?
HTML? XML?  XSL? VB? .NET?  C#?  ASP?  JSP?  PHP?  ColdFusion?

If they were all Client/Server, and never had ambitions beyond that, then PB is
hands down the winner and still champ.  But if there is going to be the usual
mish-mosh of server and browser side scripting, etc., then I don't think PB has
any particular advantages over ASP, JSP, PHP, ColdFusion, or what have you.

For reasons of security and transaction recovery, stuff like WebSphere and IBM
stuff starts appearing on the radar screen.  Really, this is a tough call unless
you are
talking pure client/server, where PB is simply outstanding.

Once you get beyond that, PB is simply a damn good contender, IMHO.  One that
drags along that EASERVER ball and chain.  My .02.  Much as I actually like PB
I wouldn't feel happy recommending it as a 100% solution in this day and age.

Jeff wrote:

> I have used PB for 3.5 years now - I would not go back to VB (unless
> required by our client).  Which is what may happen...
>
> I have a design meeting with an IT group to standardize their software
> applications.  The IT group works for a health authority who has taken the
> initative to re-write all their current applications in one common
> programming language.  I feel that PB is their best option but I can not
> find anything around that says...
>
> PB is better than <enter other tool> becuase ...
>
> Unfortunately, most of the people I will be meeting with have a MS
> background and use VB for their development.  What I need to be able to do
> is when they ask 'What about VB, Java, VB.Net,...' I need to have a comment
> other than 'How about that datawindow...'.  There will be technical and non
> technical staff present - so I need to convience the non-technical
> members...
>
> Does anybody know of or have a link to a page that says PB has a history
> of...
>
> Thanks.
>
> PS:
> I have taken the list of PB applications from the Futures Discusion Forum...
> --
> Jeff

0
woz
2/11/2003 9:53:36 PM
PowerBuilder� 8.0 vs. Visual Basic� 6.0

Competitive Analysis

http://www.sybase.com/detail?id=1018614

"Jeff" <jhersey@allnorth.com> wrote in message
news:0cNqaih0CHA.198@forums.sybase.com...
> I have used PB for 3.5 years now - I would not go back to VB (unless
> required by our client).  Which is what may happen...
>
> I have a design meeting with an IT group to standardize their software
> applications.  The IT group works for a health authority who has taken the
> initative to re-write all their current applications in one common
> programming language.  I feel that PB is their best option but I can not
> find anything around that says...
>
> PB is better than <enter other tool> becuase ...
>
> Unfortunately, most of the people I will be meeting with have a MS
> background and use VB for their development.  What I need to be able to do
> is when they ask 'What about VB, Java, VB.Net,...' I need to have a
comment
> other than 'How about that datawindow...'.  There will be technical and
non
> technical staff present - so I need to convience the non-technical
> members...
>
> Does anybody know of or have a link to a page that says PB has a history
> of...
>
> Thanks.
>
> PS:
> I have taken the list of PB applications from the Futures Discusion
Forum...
> --
> Jeff
>
>


0
Jerry
2/11/2003 11:11:18 PM
another argument: PB8 is unstable (3 crashes today for example)


0
Jeff
2/12/2003 10:16:58 AM
You might find this page helpful.

http://www.woodger.ca/vbpb.htm

-Rajeev
0
Rajeev_D
2/12/2003 10:29:04 AM
I would read something like that when it was not published by Sybase AND not
by MS

This is a little bit like asking General Motors what car you should buy

Just my opinion

Grtz
harry

"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> schreef in bericht
news:ctuxVWi0CHA.59@forums.sybase.com...
> PowerBuilder� 8.0 vs. Visual Basic� 6.0
>
> Competitive Analysis
>
> http://www.sybase.com/detail?id=1018614
>
> "Jeff" <jhersey@allnorth.com> wrote in message
> news:0cNqaih0CHA.198@forums.sybase.com...
> > I have used PB for 3.5 years now - I would not go back to VB (unless
> > required by our client).  Which is what may happen...
> >
> > I have a design meeting with an IT group to standardize their software
> > applications.  The IT group works for a health authority who has taken
the
> > initative to re-write all their current applications in one common
> > programming language.  I feel that PB is their best option but I can not
> > find anything around that says...
> >
> > PB is better than <enter other tool> becuase ...
> >
> > Unfortunately, most of the people I will be meeting with have a MS
> > background and use VB for their development.  What I need to be able to
do
> > is when they ask 'What about VB, Java, VB.Net,...' I need to have a
> comment
> > other than 'How about that datawindow...'.  There will be technical and
> non
> > technical staff present - so I need to convience the non-technical
> > members...
> >
> > Does anybody know of or have a link to a page that says PB has a history
> > of...
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > PS:
> > I have taken the list of PB applications from the Futures Discusion
> Forum...
> > --
> > Jeff
> >
> >
>
>


0
Harry
2/12/2003 11:11:37 AM
only 3 times???

I'm jealouse at you

Grtz
harry

"Jeff" <djmatti@yahoo.fr> schreef in bericht
news:7vnWqIo0CHA.199@forums.sybase.com...
> another argument: PB8 is unstable (3 crashes today for example)
>
>


0
Harry
2/12/2003 11:12:13 AM
I think I would definitely have to agree. The article actually seems a bit
of a waste of time really. Its quite obvious that Sybase aren't going to put
anything in there that VB is better at than PB, just as MS wouldn't do
vice-versa!

There are also points in the article that describe VB with the settings they
want to show how it is 'worse' than PB. For example, the part about all the
code for an object being in a continuous stream is quite easily changed to
just display the code for a certain method etc. as per PB.
[Flame resistant clothing]
I would say that VB is in fact better than PB in this respect as at least it
gives you the option of the two.
[/Flame resistant clothing]

Just my thoughts,

Paul W


"Harry Schurink" <h_schurinkATtsdDOTnl> wrote in message
news:NeNZIno0CHA.199@forums.sybase.com...
> I would read something like that when it was not published by Sybase AND
not
> by MS
>
> This is a little bit like asking General Motors what car you should buy
>
> Just my opinion
>
> Grtz
> harry
>
> "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> schreef in bericht
> news:ctuxVWi0CHA.59@forums.sybase.com...
> > PowerBuilder� 8.0 vs. Visual Basic� 6.0
> >
> > Competitive Analysis
> >
> > http://www.sybase.com/detail?id=1018614
> >
> > "Jeff" <jhersey@allnorth.com> wrote in message
> > news:0cNqaih0CHA.198@forums.sybase.com...
> > > I have used PB for 3.5 years now - I would not go back to VB (unless
> > > required by our client).  Which is what may happen...
> > >
> > > I have a design meeting with an IT group to standardize their software
> > > applications.  The IT group works for a health authority who has taken
> the
> > > initative to re-write all their current applications in one common
> > > programming language.  I feel that PB is their best option but I can
not
> > > find anything around that says...
> > >
> > > PB is better than <enter other tool> becuase ...
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, most of the people I will be meeting with have a MS
> > > background and use VB for their development.  What I need to be able
to
> do
> > > is when they ask 'What about VB, Java, VB.Net,...' I need to have a
> > comment
> > > other than 'How about that datawindow...'.  There will be technical
and
> > non
> > > technical staff present - so I need to convience the non-technical
> > > members...
> > >
> > > Does anybody know of or have a link to a page that says PB has a
history
> > > of...
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > PS:
> > > I have taken the list of PB applications from the Futures Discusion
> > Forum...
> > > --
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
Paul
2/12/2003 11:20:04 AM
Really, I'm lucky if I don't crash more than 3 times. I hate being in the
middle of a table update and then here comes the wonderful box about PB
crashing :-(


--
Evita R. Chapa
Senior Systems Analyst II
Command Technologies, Inc.

"Harry Schurink" <h_schurinkATtsdDOTnl> wrote in message
news:OGg2dno0CHA.199@forums.sybase.com...
> only 3 times???
>
> I'm jealouse at you
>
> Grtz
> harry
>
> "Jeff" <djmatti@yahoo.fr> schreef in bericht
> news:7vnWqIo0CHA.199@forums.sybase.com...
> > another argument: PB8 is unstable (3 crashes today for example)
> >
> >
>
>


0
E
2/12/2003 12:58:44 PM
I hate to throw my hat into the arena but I will throw my 2 cents.  I think the
question should be:  I am I using the right tool?  I feel that the decision to
standardize on one development tool can be the biggest stumbling block to the
growth of a company.  You may ask how?  When a company standardizes on the one
tool, the tool comes up upon road blocks which it was not designed to handle.
Then the developers must spend many hours design and building code to get around
the road blocks.  At times, the hours spend designing around a road block
outweight the cost of having the right tool to handle the job.

I been at too many companies that said we are going to standardize our
development envirnoment on a single development tool or suite of tool and seen
too many failures.  The project failures from being overbudget and late to the
development tool not handling the volume of expected work effiecently.  Now you
may say that every project is over budget and late but I worked at one company
where the many projects were on-time and at or under budget.  At the time the
company decided to standardize on a single development tool all projects started
after that were late and overbudget.

So, ask the question?  I one development tool the right tool

HTH
Anthony Savino


Jeff wrote:

> I have used PB for 3.5 years now - I would not go back to VB (unless
> required by our client).  Which is what may happen...
>
> I have a design meeting with an IT group to standardize their software
> applications.  The IT group works for a health authority who has taken the
> initative to re-write all their current applications in one common
> programming language.  I feel that PB is their best option but I can not
> find anything around that says...
>
> PB is better than <enter other tool> becuase ...
>
> Unfortunately, most of the people I will be meeting with have a MS
> background and use VB for their development.  What I need to be able to do
> is when they ask 'What about VB, Java, VB.Net,...' I need to have a comment
> other than 'How about that datawindow...'.  There will be technical and non
> technical staff present - so I need to convience the non-technical
> members...
>
> Does anybody know of or have a link to a page that says PB has a history
> of...
>
> Thanks.
>
> PS:
> I have taken the list of PB applications from the Futures Discusion Forum...
> --
> Jeff

0
Anthony
2/12/2003 1:31:11 PM
I gotta agree.. We've been using PB all this time for our development of a
new system.  It was doing great until we hit serious performance issues with
number crunching.  For mos of  the new system, it's still written in PB, but
for the number crunching area PB is calling Oracle Stored procedures that
are calling C routines and it's flying now.

Leaving yourself only 1 development tool can really get you into trouble.
One company I was at based alot of what it did on one IDE - then came
requests from clients for things that IDE wasn't meant to..Talk about manual
intervention or as we used to say..Oh, don't worry "MANUAL" is going to do
it ;-)..Poor guy was never around and had all that data massaging to do..


--
Evita R. Chapa
Senior Systems Analyst II
Command Technologies, Inc.

"Anthony Savino" <anthony_savino@iroquois.com> wrote in message
news:3E4A4C9F.B9E391CB@iroquois.com...
> I hate to throw my hat into the arena but I will throw my 2 cents.  I
think the
> question should be:  I am I using the right tool?  I feel that the
decision to
> standardize on one development tool can be the biggest stumbling block to
the
> growth of a company.  You may ask how?  When a company standardizes on the
one
> tool, the tool comes up upon road blocks which it was not designed to
handle.
> Then the developers must spend many hours design and building code to get
around
> the road blocks.  At times, the hours spend designing around a road block
> outweight the cost of having the right tool to handle the job.
>
> I been at too many companies that said we are going to standardize our
> development envirnoment on a single development tool or suite of tool and
seen
> too many failures.  The project failures from being overbudget and late to
the
> development tool not handling the volume of expected work effiecently.
Now you
> may say that every project is over budget and late but I worked at one
company
> where the many projects were on-time and at or under budget.  At the time
the
> company decided to standardize on a single development tool all projects
started
> after that were late and overbudget.
>
> So, ask the question?  I one development tool the right tool
>
> HTH
> Anthony Savino
>
>
> Jeff wrote:
>
> > I have used PB for 3.5 years now - I would not go back to VB (unless
> > required by our client).  Which is what may happen...
> >
> > I have a design meeting with an IT group to standardize their software
> > applications.  The IT group works for a health authority who has taken
the
> > initative to re-write all their current applications in one common
> > programming language.  I feel that PB is their best option but I can not
> > find anything around that says...
> >
> > PB is better than <enter other tool> becuase ...
> >
> > Unfortunately, most of the people I will be meeting with have a MS
> > background and use VB for their development.  What I need to be able to
do
> > is when they ask 'What about VB, Java, VB.Net,...' I need to have a
comment
> > other than 'How about that datawindow...'.  There will be technical and
non
> > technical staff present - so I need to convience the non-technical
> > members...
> >
> > Does anybody know of or have a link to a page that says PB has a history
> > of...
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > PS:
> > I have taken the list of PB applications from the Futures Discusion
Forum...
> > --
> > Jeff
>


0
E
2/12/2003 1:48:07 PM
Jeff;

    You should make the case for PB based on version 9 coming out in the
next month or so. I have just completed some preliminary development in
VB.net and have been doing a little Java as well over the past few years.
For all it's worth, I would take PB 9 hands down!
    Here are some key areas to consider ....

1)  The majority of sites are not buying into .NET
(http://builder.com.com/article.jhtml?id=u00220030124adm01.htm)
2) .NET has over 4,800 objects and requires >35M of overhead at run time!
3) My VB.net crashes every few minutes, even when just trying to inherit a
form!
4) The .NET SDK is over 135M!
5) The new Java 1.4 SDK is over 62M with the run time overhead being > 25M -
never mind your application!
6) PB 9 is the only development tool to handle XML schemas natively (no MS
XML SDK required).
7) PB 9 will be the only development tool that can produce Acrobat PDF's
without 3rd party add-on!
8) Java and C# are NOT 4 GL's like PB.
9) The learning curve for PB is 1/3 that of .NET of .JDK
10) MS has some severe problems with VB.NET ( 113 major issues on the
support web site)
11) You can not build menus separately and/or inherit them even in VB.net
12) Nothing is still as "data aware" as PB.
13) You can not do ASP with Java. You can not do JSP with VB. You can do
either one with PB 9!
14)  PB 9 can access .NET components! It can also call Java directly (PBNI)
and use EJB's!
15)  PB 9 can create and publish a PB object as a Web Service.
16)  PB 9 can consume any Web Service
17)  PocketBuilder (PowerBuilder for the PDA) is really cool (I am on the
Alpha test team).
18)  PB's ASA  is an awesome DBMS. Coupled with MobilLink, makes some cool
application designs possible.

Any way here are just a few thoughts off the top of my head.

regards ... Chris
Great White North Technical Evangelist


"Jeff" <jhersey@allnorth.com> wrote in message
news:0cNqaih0CHA.198@forums.sybase.com...
> I have used PB for 3.5 years now - I would not go back to VB (unless
> required by our client).  Which is what may happen...
>
> I have a design meeting with an IT group to standardize their software
> applications.  The IT group works for a health authority who has taken the
> initative to re-write all their current applications in one common
> programming language.  I feel that PB is their best option but I can not
> find anything around that says...
>
> PB is better than <enter other tool> becuase ...
>
> Unfortunately, most of the people I will be meeting with have a MS
> background and use VB for their development.  What I need to be able to do
> is when they ask 'What about VB, Java, VB.Net,...' I need to have a
comment
> other than 'How about that datawindow...'.  There will be technical and
non
> technical staff present - so I need to convience the non-technical
> members...
>
> Does anybody know of or have a link to a page that says PB has a history
> of...
>
> Thanks.
>
> PS:
> I have taken the list of PB applications from the Futures Discusion
Forum...
> --
> Jeff
>
>


0
Chris
2/12/2003 2:09:19 PM
Evita;

  Are you compiling to machine code?

regards ... Chris

"E Chapa" <echapa@commtechinc.com> wrote in message
news:n1rKYAq0CHA.59@forums.sybase.com...
> I gotta agree.. We've been using PB all this time for our development of a
> new system.  It was doing great until we hit serious performance issues
with
> number crunching.  For mos of  the new system, it's still written in PB,
but
> for the number crunching area PB is calling Oracle Stored procedures that
> are calling C routines and it's flying now.
>
> Leaving yourself only 1 development tool can really get you into trouble.
> One company I was at based alot of what it did on one IDE - then came
> requests from clients for things that IDE wasn't meant to..Talk about
manual
> intervention or as we used to say..Oh, don't worry "MANUAL" is going to do
> it ;-)..Poor guy was never around and had all that data massaging to do..
>
>
> --
> Evita R. Chapa
> Senior Systems Analyst II
> Command Technologies, Inc.
>
> "Anthony Savino" <anthony_savino@iroquois.com> wrote in message
> news:3E4A4C9F.B9E391CB@iroquois.com...
> > I hate to throw my hat into the arena but I will throw my 2 cents.  I
> think the
> > question should be:  I am I using the right tool?  I feel that the
> decision to
> > standardize on one development tool can be the biggest stumbling block
to
> the
> > growth of a company.  You may ask how?  When a company standardizes on
the
> one
> > tool, the tool comes up upon road blocks which it was not designed to
> handle.
> > Then the developers must spend many hours design and building code to
get
> around
> > the road blocks.  At times, the hours spend designing around a road
block
> > outweight the cost of having the right tool to handle the job.
> >
> > I been at too many companies that said we are going to standardize our
> > development envirnoment on a single development tool or suite of tool
and
> seen
> > too many failures.  The project failures from being overbudget and late
to
> the
> > development tool not handling the volume of expected work effiecently.
> Now you
> > may say that every project is over budget and late but I worked at one
> company
> > where the many projects were on-time and at or under budget.  At the
time
> the
> > company decided to standardize on a single development tool all projects
> started
> > after that were late and overbudget.
> >
> > So, ask the question?  I one development tool the right tool
> >
> > HTH
> > Anthony Savino
> >
> >
> > Jeff wrote:
> >
> > > I have used PB for 3.5 years now - I would not go back to VB (unless
> > > required by our client).  Which is what may happen...
> > >
> > > I have a design meeting with an IT group to standardize their software
> > > applications.  The IT group works for a health authority who has taken
> the
> > > initative to re-write all their current applications in one common
> > > programming language.  I feel that PB is their best option but I can
not
> > > find anything around that says...
> > >
> > > PB is better than <enter other tool> becuase ...
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, most of the people I will be meeting with have a MS
> > > background and use VB for their development.  What I need to be able
to
> do
> > > is when they ask 'What about VB, Java, VB.Net,...' I need to have a
> comment
> > > other than 'How about that datawindow...'.  There will be technical
and
> non
> > > technical staff present - so I need to convience the non-technical
> > > members...
> > >
> > > Does anybody know of or have a link to a page that says PB has a
history
> > > of...
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > PS:
> > > I have taken the list of PB applications from the Futures Discusion
> Forum...
> > > --
> > > Jeff
> >
>
>


0
Chris
2/12/2003 2:10:46 PM
At this point, I"m just running it from the IDE..When we start looking at
deployment i was told we'd be going to PBDs?  Sorry for my ignorance on this
but I haven't looked at this yet.


--
Evita R. Chapa
Senior Systems Analyst II
Command Technologies, Inc.

"Chris Pollach" <cpollach@ajja.com> wrote in message
news:JZaU5Mq0CHA.331@forums.sybase.com...
> Evita;
>
>   Are you compiling to machine code?
>
> regards ... Chris
>
> "E Chapa" <echapa@commtechinc.com> wrote in message
> news:n1rKYAq0CHA.59@forums.sybase.com...
> > I gotta agree.. We've been using PB all this time for our development of
a
> > new system.  It was doing great until we hit serious performance issues
> with
> > number crunching.  For mos of  the new system, it's still written in PB,
> but
> > for the number crunching area PB is calling Oracle Stored procedures
that
> > are calling C routines and it's flying now.
> >
> > Leaving yourself only 1 development tool can really get you into
trouble.
> > One company I was at based alot of what it did on one IDE - then came
> > requests from clients for things that IDE wasn't meant to..Talk about
> manual
> > intervention or as we used to say..Oh, don't worry "MANUAL" is going to
do
> > it ;-)..Poor guy was never around and had all that data massaging to
do..
> >
> >
> > --
> > Evita R. Chapa
> > Senior Systems Analyst II
> > Command Technologies, Inc.
> >
> > "Anthony Savino" <anthony_savino@iroquois.com> wrote in message
> > news:3E4A4C9F.B9E391CB@iroquois.com...
> > > I hate to throw my hat into the arena but I will throw my 2 cents.  I
> > think the
> > > question should be:  I am I using the right tool?  I feel that the
> > decision to
> > > standardize on one development tool can be the biggest stumbling block
> to
> > the
> > > growth of a company.  You may ask how?  When a company standardizes on
> the
> > one
> > > tool, the tool comes up upon road blocks which it was not designed to
> > handle.
> > > Then the developers must spend many hours design and building code to
> get
> > around
> > > the road blocks.  At times, the hours spend designing around a road
> block
> > > outweight the cost of having the right tool to handle the job.
> > >
> > > I been at too many companies that said we are going to standardize our
> > > development envirnoment on a single development tool or suite of tool
> and
> > seen
> > > too many failures.  The project failures from being overbudget and
late
> to
> > the
> > > development tool not handling the volume of expected work effiecently.
> > Now you
> > > may say that every project is over budget and late but I worked at one
> > company
> > > where the many projects were on-time and at or under budget.  At the
> time
> > the
> > > company decided to standardize on a single development tool all
projects
> > started
> > > after that were late and overbudget.
> > >
> > > So, ask the question?  I one development tool the right tool
> > >
> > > HTH
> > > Anthony Savino
> > >
> > >
> > > Jeff wrote:
> > >
> > > > I have used PB for 3.5 years now - I would not go back to VB (unless
> > > > required by our client).  Which is what may happen...
> > > >
> > > > I have a design meeting with an IT group to standardize their
software
> > > > applications.  The IT group works for a health authority who has
taken
> > the
> > > > initative to re-write all their current applications in one common
> > > > programming language.  I feel that PB is their best option but I can
> not
> > > > find anything around that says...
> > > >
> > > > PB is better than <enter other tool> becuase ...
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately, most of the people I will be meeting with have a MS
> > > > background and use VB for their development.  What I need to be able
> to
> > do
> > > > is when they ask 'What about VB, Java, VB.Net,...' I need to have a
> > comment
> > > > other than 'How about that datawindow...'.  There will be technical
> and
> > non
> > > > technical staff present - so I need to convience the non-technical
> > > > members...
> > > >
> > > > Does anybody know of or have a link to a page that says PB has a
> history
> > > > of...
> > > >
> > > > Thanks.
> > > >
> > > > PS:
> > > > I have taken the list of PB applications from the Futures Discusion
> > Forum...
> > > > --
> > > > Jeff
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
E
2/12/2003 2:42:13 PM
When I said that it was 11H am here

Now it has crashes for 7 times...

"E Chapa" <echapa@commtechinc.com> a �crit dans le message de news:
jZT5xkp0CHA.198@forums.sybase.com...
> Really, I'm lucky if I don't crash more than 3 times. I hate being in the
> middle of a table update and then here comes the wonderful box about PB
> crashing :-(
>
>
> --
> Evita R. Chapa
> Senior Systems Analyst II
> Command Technologies, Inc.
>
> "Harry Schurink" <h_schurinkATtsdDOTnl> wrote in message
> news:OGg2dno0CHA.199@forums.sybase.com...
> > only 3 times???
> >
> > I'm jealouse at you
> >
> > Grtz
> > harry
> >
> > "Jeff" <djmatti@yahoo.fr> schreef in bericht
> > news:7vnWqIo0CHA.199@forums.sybase.com...
> > > another argument: PB8 is unstable (3 crashes today for example)
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
Jeff
2/12/2003 2:49:42 PM
Jeff- I would take this approach.  IDE's are tools, and you need to choose 
the right tool for the right job.  There is no such thing as a "universal 
tool".  You can't buy one wrench to fix every problem on your car. 
Likewise, one development environment can't be used for every business 
problem that needs to be addressed by developers.

You *can* get by - meaning that you can purchase one IDE, such as VB or PB 
and come up with some method providing a solution to every problem that 
your users need solutions for.  But, there are big sacrifices.  Usually, 
the big sacrifice is time. Or the user doesn't like the interface (the 
"look and feel") but the application does everything they ask.  The only 
way to achieve both full functionality and a perfect presentation layer is 
to use the *other* tool.

Now, state your case for PB based on the tasks you have on your plate.  "PB 
is better because...".  Be honest. Give advantages and disadvantages of 
both VB and PB.

For pure client-server work, PB is hard to beat.  Better than VB in my 
opinion.  The datawindow is still a very slick way to slam data in and out 
of a database.

If you're doing web work, VB is better if you're running on Microsoft 
boxes.  If you're faliliar with ASP and using ASP for the presenataion 
layer, then VB is the logical choice for the subsequent layers.

Just my .02.  If I needed a web interface, (i.e. an Internet or Intranet 
application) I wouldn't use PB.  If it was a pure client-server 
application, I'd use PB any day. 
0
Larry_Williams
2/12/2003 2:54:00 PM
I aggree with you. If not, I wouldn't be here ;-)

But PB6.5 crashed about 1 times per month in average...

"Chris Pollach" <cpollach@ajja.com> a �crit dans le message de news:
oMgsFMq0CHA.331@forums.sybase.com...
> Jeff;
>
>     You should make the case for PB based on version 9 coming out in the
> next month or so. I have just completed some preliminary development in
> VB.net and have been doing a little Java as well over the past few years.
> For all it's worth, I would take PB 9 hands down!
>     Here are some key areas to consider ....
>
> 1)  The majority of sites are not buying into .NET
> (http://builder.com.com/article.jhtml?id=u00220030124adm01.htm)
> 2) .NET has over 4,800 objects and requires >35M of overhead at run time!
> 3) My VB.net crashes every few minutes, even when just trying to inherit a
> form!
> 4) The .NET SDK is over 135M!
> 5) The new Java 1.4 SDK is over 62M with the run time overhead being >
25M -
> never mind your application!
> 6) PB 9 is the only development tool to handle XML schemas natively (no MS
> XML SDK required).
> 7) PB 9 will be the only development tool that can produce Acrobat PDF's
> without 3rd party add-on!
> 8) Java and C# are NOT 4 GL's like PB.
> 9) The learning curve for PB is 1/3 that of .NET of .JDK
> 10) MS has some severe problems with VB.NET ( 113 major issues on the
> support web site)
> 11) You can not build menus separately and/or inherit them even in VB.net
> 12) Nothing is still as "data aware" as PB.
> 13) You can not do ASP with Java. You can not do JSP with VB. You can do
> either one with PB 9!
> 14)  PB 9 can access .NET components! It can also call Java directly
(PBNI)
> and use EJB's!
> 15)  PB 9 can create and publish a PB object as a Web Service.
> 16)  PB 9 can consume any Web Service
> 17)  PocketBuilder (PowerBuilder for the PDA) is really cool (I am on the
> Alpha test team).
> 18)  PB's ASA  is an awesome DBMS. Coupled with MobilLink, makes some cool
> application designs possible.
>
> Any way here are just a few thoughts off the top of my head.
>
> regards ... Chris
> Great White North Technical Evangelist
>
>
> "Jeff" <jhersey@allnorth.com> wrote in message
> news:0cNqaih0CHA.198@forums.sybase.com...
> > I have used PB for 3.5 years now - I would not go back to VB (unless
> > required by our client).  Which is what may happen...
> >
> > I have a design meeting with an IT group to standardize their software
> > applications.  The IT group works for a health authority who has taken
the
> > initative to re-write all their current applications in one common
> > programming language.  I feel that PB is their best option but I can not
> > find anything around that says...
> >
> > PB is better than <enter other tool> becuase ...
> >
> > Unfortunately, most of the people I will be meeting with have a MS
> > background and use VB for their development.  What I need to be able to
do
> > is when they ask 'What about VB, Java, VB.Net,...' I need to have a
> comment
> > other than 'How about that datawindow...'.  There will be technical and
> non
> > technical staff present - so I need to convience the non-technical
> > members...
> >
> > Does anybody know of or have a link to a page that says PB has a history
> > of...
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > PS:
> > I have taken the list of PB applications from the Futures Discusion
> Forum...
> > --
> > Jeff
> >
> >
>
>


0
Jeff
2/12/2003 2:57:34 PM
As Chris I aggree with you. It was just to shout a little about the time I
lost with the PB crashes.

For Web delopment, I use PHP and UltraEdit (+ ASA of course) which is, for
my own, the best way to developpe web applications

<Larry_Williams> a �crit dans le message de news:
BF80DB603AB4B53C0051D93985256CCB.007C695785256CCA@webforums...
> Jeff- I would take this approach.  IDE's are tools, and you need to choose
> the right tool for the right job.  There is no such thing as a "universal
> tool".  You can't buy one wrench to fix every problem on your car.
> Likewise, one development environment can't be used for every business
> problem that needs to be addressed by developers.
>
> You *can* get by - meaning that you can purchase one IDE, such as VB or PB
> and come up with some method providing a solution to every problem that
> your users need solutions for.  But, there are big sacrifices.  Usually,
> the big sacrifice is time. Or the user doesn't like the interface (the
> "look and feel") but the application does everything they ask.  The only
> way to achieve both full functionality and a perfect presentation layer is
> to use the *other* tool.
>
> Now, state your case for PB based on the tasks you have on your plate.
"PB
> is better because...".  Be honest. Give advantages and disadvantages of
> both VB and PB.
>
> For pure client-server work, PB is hard to beat.  Better than VB in my
> opinion.  The datawindow is still a very slick way to slam data in and out
> of a database.
>
> If you're doing web work, VB is better if you're running on Microsoft
> boxes.  If you're faliliar with ASP and using ASP for the presenataion
> layer, then VB is the logical choice for the subsequent layers.
>
> Just my .02.  If I needed a web interface, (i.e. an Internet or Intranet
> application) I wouldn't use PB.  If it was a pure client-server
> application, I'd use PB any day.


0
Jeff
2/12/2003 3:01:13 PM
That's not an argument, that's conjecture.

PB8 is as stable as any other IDE written in C++

--
This is a FAQ, read Help, then search www.groups.google.com

pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-))
Philip Salgannik

"Jeff" <djmatti@yahoo.fr> wrote in message
news:7vnWqIo0CHA.199@forums.sybase.com...
> another argument: PB8 is unstable (3 crashes today for example)
>
>


0
Philip
2/12/2003 3:03:12 PM
Edit Source

Good luck,

Terry [TeamSybase] and Sequel the techno-kitten

On Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:20:04 -0000, "Paul W" <ReplyTo@Newsgroup.com>
wrote:

>[Flame resistant clothing]
>I would say that VB is in fact better than PB in this respect as at least it
>gives you the option of the two.
>[/Flame resistant clothing]


Sequel's Sandbox: http://www.techno-kitten.com
Home of PBL Peeper, a PowerBuilder Developer's Toolkit. 
Version 2.2.03 now available at the Sandbox
See the new PB Troubleshooting Guide at the Sandbox
^ ^
o o
=*=
0
Terry
2/12/2003 3:15:21 PM
Everyone's got their own crash rates. I hardly get any with PB8 with
what I'm doing now, but with PB6 I was bootstrapping source because
PB6 had crashed and corrupted my PBLs almost every other day. Have yet
to need to bootstrap with PB7 or PB8. 

And remember, people don't come to the newsgroups to brag about how
seldom their IDE crashes. <g>

Good luck,

Terry [TeamSybase] and Sequel the techno-kitten

On Wed, 12 Feb 2003 15:57:34 +0100, "Jeff" <djmatti@yahoo.fr> wrote:

>I aggree with you. If not, I wouldn't be here ;-)
>
>But PB6.5 crashed about 1 times per month in average...
>
>"Chris Pollach" <cpollach@ajja.com> a �crit dans le message de news:
>oMgsFMq0CHA.331@forums.sybase.com...
>> Jeff;
>>
>>     You should make the case for PB based on version 9 coming out in the
>> next month or so. I have just completed some preliminary development in
>> VB.net and have been doing a little Java as well over the past few years.
>> For all it's worth, I would take PB 9 hands down!
>>     Here are some key areas to consider ....
>>
>> 1)  The majority of sites are not buying into .NET
>> (http://builder.com.com/article.jhtml?id=u00220030124adm01.htm)
>> 2) .NET has over 4,800 objects and requires >35M of overhead at run time!
>> 3) My VB.net crashes every few minutes, even when just trying to inherit a
>> form!
>> 4) The .NET SDK is over 135M!
>> 5) The new Java 1.4 SDK is over 62M with the run time overhead being >
>25M -
>> never mind your application!
>> 6) PB 9 is the only development tool to handle XML schemas natively (no MS
>> XML SDK required).
>> 7) PB 9 will be the only development tool that can produce Acrobat PDF's
>> without 3rd party add-on!
>> 8) Java and C# are NOT 4 GL's like PB.
>> 9) The learning curve for PB is 1/3 that of .NET of .JDK
>> 10) MS has some severe problems with VB.NET ( 113 major issues on the
>> support web site)
>> 11) You can not build menus separately and/or inherit them even in VB.net
>> 12) Nothing is still as "data aware" as PB.
>> 13) You can not do ASP with Java. You can not do JSP with VB. You can do
>> either one with PB 9!
>> 14)  PB 9 can access .NET components! It can also call Java directly
>(PBNI)
>> and use EJB's!
>> 15)  PB 9 can create and publish a PB object as a Web Service.
>> 16)  PB 9 can consume any Web Service
>> 17)  PocketBuilder (PowerBuilder for the PDA) is really cool (I am on the
>> Alpha test team).
>> 18)  PB's ASA  is an awesome DBMS. Coupled with MobilLink, makes some cool
>> application designs possible.
>>
>> Any way here are just a few thoughts off the top of my head.
>>
>> regards ... Chris
>> Great White North Technical Evangelist
>>
>>
>> "Jeff" <jhersey@allnorth.com> wrote in message
>> news:0cNqaih0CHA.198@forums.sybase.com...
>> > I have used PB for 3.5 years now - I would not go back to VB (unless
>> > required by our client).  Which is what may happen...
>> >
>> > I have a design meeting with an IT group to standardize their software
>> > applications.  The IT group works for a health authority who has taken
>the
>> > initative to re-write all their current applications in one common
>> > programming language.  I feel that PB is their best option but I can not
>> > find anything around that says...
>> >
>> > PB is better than <enter other tool> becuase ...
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, most of the people I will be meeting with have a MS
>> > background and use VB for their development.  What I need to be able to
>do
>> > is when they ask 'What about VB, Java, VB.Net,...' I need to have a
>> comment
>> > other than 'How about that datawindow...'.  There will be technical and
>> non
>> > technical staff present - so I need to convience the non-technical
>> > members...
>> >
>> > Does anybody know of or have a link to a page that says PB has a history
>> > of...
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> >
>> > PS:
>> > I have taken the list of PB applications from the Futures Discusion
>> Forum...
>> > --
>> > Jeff
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>


Sequel's Sandbox: http://www.techno-kitten.com
Home of PBL Peeper, a PowerBuilder Developer's Toolkit. 
Version 2.2.03 now available at the Sandbox
See the new PB Troubleshooting Guide at the Sandbox
^ ^
o o
=*=
0
Terry
2/12/2003 3:22:37 PM
I'd disagree with the supposition that PB doesn't have *any*
advantages over others in middle tier stuff. The datastore is still
better, overall, than ADO.net IMHO. Not that there aren't some things
in ADO.net that I'd like to see in PB. But given the two, I'd pick a
datastore. (And, given the option of doing with the datastore does
with a 3GL, I'd rather gouge my eyes out. <BG>) For HTML novices,
having the HTML DW capabilities of being able to paint and script
datawindows and their expressions and then be able to pump all that
out for the browser with relatively little effort is a good thing too.
And, having native database interface where you don't have to learn
all the specifics for each DBMS is incredible, both from a performance
and productivity point of view. Chris also makes some good points
about PB9 and its XML abilities. Some of the stuff the datawindow can
do for XML production is mind blowing, let alone not having to rely on
external suppliers for that capability (read: an entirely new set of
executables you need to worry about versioning, deploying, making sure
they aren't overwritten, etc...). I wouldn't say PB has it hands over
everything else. Like others are saying, the right tool.... I'd just
contend with the statement that PB has *no* advantages.

As for the EAServer ball and chain comment, I'd agree that it's a
downward pull from a mind share perspective. But from a performance,
reliability and price perspective, its aggressively competitive. As of
PB9, PB clients will be able to interact with components on other app
servers. And, with PBNI on the horizon within months, deploying on
other app servers is going to be a lot closer to the realm of reality.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if someone started deploying specific
objects on other app servers before Sybase put out the capability to
deploy any objects (building an interface specific to one object
sounds a lot more feasible than building a generic interface for all
objects). 

So, does your two cents and my two cents make four cents? <g>

Terry [TeamSybase] and Sequel the techno-kitten

On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 16:53:36 -0500, woz <abuse@msn.com> wrote:

>Gee, what a charming old-fashioned question!  Rewrite everything in a "common
>programming language".  Now, what would that be?  Java?  PB?  Javascript?
>HTML? XML?  XSL? VB? .NET?  C#?  ASP?  JSP?  PHP?  ColdFusion?
>
>If they were all Client/Server, and never had ambitions beyond that, then PB is
>hands down the winner and still champ.  But if there is going to be the usual
>mish-mosh of server and browser side scripting, etc., then I don't think PB has
>any particular advantages over ASP, JSP, PHP, ColdFusion, or what have you.
>
>For reasons of security and transaction recovery, stuff like WebSphere and IBM
>stuff starts appearing on the radar screen.  Really, this is a tough call unless
>you are
>talking pure client/server, where PB is simply outstanding.
>
>Once you get beyond that, PB is simply a damn good contender, IMHO.  One that
>drags along that EASERVER ball and chain.  My .02.  Much as I actually like PB
>I wouldn't feel happy recommending it as a 100% solution in this day and age.
>
>Jeff wrote:
>
>> I have used PB for 3.5 years now - I would not go back to VB (unless
>> required by our client).  Which is what may happen...
>>
>> I have a design meeting with an IT group to standardize their software
>> applications.  The IT group works for a health authority who has taken the
>> initative to re-write all their current applications in one common
>> programming language.  I feel that PB is their best option but I can not
>> find anything around that says...
>>
>> PB is better than <enter other tool> becuase ...
>>
>> Unfortunately, most of the people I will be meeting with have a MS
>> background and use VB for their development.  What I need to be able to do
>> is when they ask 'What about VB, Java, VB.Net,...' I need to have a comment
>> other than 'How about that datawindow...'.  There will be technical and non
>> technical staff present - so I need to convience the non-technical
>> members...
>>
>> Does anybody know of or have a link to a page that says PB has a history
>> of...
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> PS:
>> I have taken the list of PB applications from the Futures Discusion Forum...
>> --
>> Jeff


Sequel's Sandbox: http://www.techno-kitten.com
Home of PBL Peeper, a PowerBuilder Developer's Toolkit. 
Version 2.2.03 now available at the Sandbox
See the new PB Troubleshooting Guide at the Sandbox
^ ^
o o
=*=
0
Terry
2/12/2003 3:49:06 PM
I agree with this - but from a different perspective.  Our project is PB/EAS
and it's great.  I spent some time creating a solid framework that allows us
to quickly add new functionality.  The problem we are having is management
doesn't have a full grasp on the life cycle concept.  They are in a huff
because a modification takes X hours and they blame the tool.  They are
convinced if we switched to Java (or peoplesoft or anything but that tool)
we can have faster turn around.  I point out to them that more than 60% of
the (calendar) development cycle is spent in trying to get users to tell us
what they want and need, getting the users to all agree, the functional
design and sign off, the testing, the implementation and the red tape we
have in rolling out changes.  They dismiss that and think that another tool
would make that problem go away.

If we had another tool being used, they might see that sometimes the tool is
not the cause of a delay.


"Anthony Savino" <anthony_savino@iroquois.com> wrote in message
news:3E4A4C9F.B9E391CB@iroquois.com...
> I hate to throw my hat into the arena but I will throw my 2 cents.  I
think the
> question should be:  I am I using the right tool?  I feel that the
decision to
> standardize on one development tool can be the biggest stumbling block to
the
> growth of a company.  You may ask how?  When a company standardizes on the
one
> tool, the tool comes up upon road blocks which it was not designed to
handle.
> Then the developers must spend many hours design and building code to get
around
> the road blocks.  At times, the hours spend designing around a road block
> outweight the cost of having the right tool to handle the job.
>
> I been at too many companies that said we are going to standardize our
> development envirnoment on a single development tool or suite of tool and
seen
> too many failures.  The project failures from being overbudget and late to
the
> development tool not handling the volume of expected work effiecently.
Now you
> may say that every project is over budget and late but I worked at one
company
> where the many projects were on-time and at or under budget.  At the time
the
> company decided to standardize on a single development tool all projects
started
> after that were late and overbudget.
>
> So, ask the question?  I one development tool the right tool
>
> HTH
> Anthony Savino
>
>
> Jeff wrote:
>
> > I have used PB for 3.5 years now - I would not go back to VB (unless
> > required by our client).  Which is what may happen...
> >
> > I have a design meeting with an IT group to standardize their software
> > applications.  The IT group works for a health authority who has taken
the
> > initative to re-write all their current applications in one common
> > programming language.  I feel that PB is their best option but I can not
> > find anything around that says...
> >
> > PB is better than <enter other tool> becuase ...
> >
> > Unfortunately, most of the people I will be meeting with have a MS
> > background and use VB for their development.  What I need to be able to
do
> > is when they ask 'What about VB, Java, VB.Net,...' I need to have a
comment
> > other than 'How about that datawindow...'.  There will be technical and
non
> > technical staff present - so I need to convience the non-technical
> > members...
> >
> > Does anybody know of or have a link to a page that says PB has a history
> > of...
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > PS:
> > I have taken the list of PB applications from the Futures Discusion
Forum...
> > --
> > Jeff
>


0
Daniel
2/12/2003 4:58:05 PM
These really represent strengths (hidden), not weaknesses.

Clinton
http://mylinuxisp.com/~vmdd_tech

--------------------------------------------------------
2) .NET has over 4,800 objects and requires 35M of overhead at run time!
4) The .NET SDK is over 135M!
5) The new Java 1.4 SDK is over 62M with the run time overhead being 25M - 
never mind your application!
0
Clinton
2/12/2003 5:11:44 PM
It was a joke..I know..

But I not the same "Jeff" as tho who posted the root post.

"Philip Salgannik" <philemax@attbi.com> a �crit dans le message de news:
DnoERqq0CHA.59@forums.sybase.com...
> That's not an argument, that's conjecture.
>
> PB8 is as stable as any other IDE written in C++
>
> --
> This is a FAQ, read Help, then search www.groups.google.com
>
> pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-))
> Philip Salgannik
>
> "Jeff" <djmatti@yahoo.fr> wrote in message
> news:7vnWqIo0CHA.199@forums.sybase.com...
> > another argument: PB8 is unstable (3 crashes today for example)
> >
> >
>
>


0
Jeff
2/12/2003 5:46:07 PM
War story, from the COBOL era:
Users want a certain action to occur if a certain field is "a Q". The screen
print provided as part of the specification shows the field containing "Q".
The change goes through the cycle and reaches production.
Users go ballistic! We can't use the application! We meant "any code
beginning with Q"!
The code change, which effectively turns the reference into a substring, is
5 keystrokes:  (1:1).
By the time the code is checked out, changed, tested, checked in, authorized
for promotion to integration test, promoted, recompiled, retested,
authorized for promotion to production, promoted, compiled, and deployed, 5
hours have elapsed.

"Daniel Coppersmith" <daniel@N.0.S.P.A.M_infrontsoftware.com> wrote in
message news:W6TJwsr0CHA.351@forums.sybase.com...
> I agree with this - but from a different perspective.  Our project is
PB/EAS
> and it's great.  I spent some time creating a solid framework that allows
us
> to quickly add new functionality.  The problem we are having is management
> doesn't have a full grasp on the life cycle concept.  They are in a huff
> because a modification takes X hours and they blame the tool.  They are
> convinced if we switched to Java (or peoplesoft or anything but that tool)
> we can have faster turn around.  I point out to them that more than 60% of
> the (calendar) development cycle is spent in trying to get users to tell
us
> what they want and need, getting the users to all agree, the functional
> design and sign off, the testing, the implementation and the red tape we
> have in rolling out changes.  They dismiss that and think that another
tool
> would make that problem go away.
>
> If we had another tool being used, they might see that sometimes the tool
is
> not the cause of a delay.
>
>
> "Anthony Savino" <anthony_savino@iroquois.com> wrote in message
> news:3E4A4C9F.B9E391CB@iroquois.com...
> > I hate to throw my hat into the arena but I will throw my 2 cents.  I
> think the
> > question should be:  I am I using the right tool?  I feel that the
> decision to
> > standardize on one development tool can be the biggest stumbling block
to
> the
> > growth of a company.  You may ask how?  When a company standardizes on
the
> one
> > tool, the tool comes up upon road blocks which it was not designed to
> handle.
> > Then the developers must spend many hours design and building code to
get
> around
> > the road blocks.  At times, the hours spend designing around a road
block
> > outweight the cost of having the right tool to handle the job.
> >
> > I been at too many companies that said we are going to standardize our
> > development envirnoment on a single development tool or suite of tool
and
> seen
> > too many failures.  The project failures from being overbudget and late
to
> the
> > development tool not handling the volume of expected work effiecently.
> Now you
> > may say that every project is over budget and late but I worked at one
> company
> > where the many projects were on-time and at or under budget.  At the
time
> the
> > company decided to standardize on a single development tool all projects
> started
> > after that were late and overbudget.
> >
> > So, ask the question?  I one development tool the right tool
> >
> > HTH
> > Anthony Savino
> >
> >
> > Jeff wrote:
> >
> > > I have used PB for 3.5 years now - I would not go back to VB (unless
> > > required by our client).  Which is what may happen...
> > >
> > > I have a design meeting with an IT group to standardize their software
> > > applications.  The IT group works for a health authority who has taken
> the
> > > initative to re-write all their current applications in one common
> > > programming language.  I feel that PB is their best option but I can
not
> > > find anything around that says...
> > >
> > > PB is better than <enter other tool> becuase ...
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, most of the people I will be meeting with have a MS
> > > background and use VB for their development.  What I need to be able
to
> do
> > > is when they ask 'What about VB, Java, VB.Net,...' I need to have a
> comment
> > > other than 'How about that datawindow...'.  There will be technical
and
> non
> > > technical staff present - so I need to convience the non-technical
> > > members...
> > >
> > > Does anybody know of or have a link to a page that says PB has a
history
> > > of...
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > PS:
> > > I have taken the list of PB applications from the Futures Discusion
> Forum...
> > > --
> > > Jeff
> >
>
>


0
Jerry
2/12/2003 6:41:21 PM
when the day comes that i don't crash more that 3 times..
i go home singing an dancing :))

Grtz
harry



"E Chapa" <echapa@commtechinc.com> schreef in bericht
news:jZT5xkp0CHA.198@forums.sybase.com...
> Really, I'm lucky if I don't crash more than 3 times. I hate being in the
> middle of a table update and then here comes the wonderful box about PB
> crashing :-(
>
>
> --
> Evita R. Chapa
> Senior Systems Analyst II
> Command Technologies, Inc.
>
> "Harry Schurink" <h_schurinkATtsdDOTnl> wrote in message
> news:OGg2dno0CHA.199@forums.sybase.com...
> > only 3 times???
> >
> > I'm jealouse at you
> >
> > Grtz
> > harry
> >
> > "Jeff" <djmatti@yahoo.fr> schreef in bericht
> > news:7vnWqIo0CHA.199@forums.sybase.com...
> > > another argument: PB8 is unstable (3 crashes today for example)
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
Harry
2/13/2003 9:37:44 AM
No;

2) Overly complex to learn; Kills a normal client PC for performance; Does
not work well unless client is XP; etc
4) More of a pig than Java! Took me over 1.3 hours to install VS.net (full)
on a 1.7GHZ machine. Ran just about as fast when compiling as well. PB 9
blows the doors off this puppy.
5) Even slower than 1.2/1.3 and, those are real sad.



<Clinton> wrote in message
news:3D271E4853D998A2005E754A85256CCB.00534E4485256CCB@webforums...
> These really represent strengths (hidden), not weaknesses.
>
> Clinton
> http://mylinuxisp.com/~vmdd_tech
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> 2) .NET has over 4,800 objects and requires 35M of overhead at run time!
> 4) The .NET SDK is over 135M!
> 5) The new Java 1.4 SDK is over 62M with the run time overhead being 25M -
> never mind your application!


0
Chris
2/13/2003 5:17:46 PM
Number 4: The size of the SDK doesn't matter. The redistributable (.NET
Framework) is about 20MB. Also the framework is so rich in features, that
applications built with it are super small. Check ASP.NET Web Matrix at
www.asp.net. It is only 1.2MB. This is a very nice IDE, and the 1.2MB even
has a basic Web server. Amazingly small in size!



"Chris Pollach" <cpollach@ajja.com> wrote in message
news:oMgsFMq0CHA.331@forums.sybase.com...
> Jeff;
>
>     You should make the case for PB based on version 9 coming out in the
> next month or so. I have just completed some preliminary development in
> VB.net and have been doing a little Java as well over the past few years.
> For all it's worth, I would take PB 9 hands down!
>     Here are some key areas to consider ....
>
> 1)  The majority of sites are not buying into .NET
> (http://builder.com.com/article.jhtml?id=u00220030124adm01.htm)
> 2) .NET has over 4,800 objects and requires >35M of overhead at run time!
> 3) My VB.net crashes every few minutes, even when just trying to inherit a
> form!
> 4) The .NET SDK is over 135M!
> 5) The new Java 1.4 SDK is over 62M with the run time overhead being >
25M -
> never mind your application!
> 6) PB 9 is the only development tool to handle XML schemas natively (no MS
> XML SDK required).
> 7) PB 9 will be the only development tool that can produce Acrobat PDF's
> without 3rd party add-on!
> 8) Java and C# are NOT 4 GL's like PB.
> 9) The learning curve for PB is 1/3 that of .NET of .JDK
> 10) MS has some severe problems with VB.NET ( 113 major issues on the
> support web site)
> 11) You can not build menus separately and/or inherit them even in VB.net
> 12) Nothing is still as "data aware" as PB.
> 13) You can not do ASP with Java. You can not do JSP with VB. You can do
> either one with PB 9!
> 14)  PB 9 can access .NET components! It can also call Java directly
(PBNI)
> and use EJB's!
> 15)  PB 9 can create and publish a PB object as a Web Service.
> 16)  PB 9 can consume any Web Service
> 17)  PocketBuilder (PowerBuilder for the PDA) is really cool (I am on the
> Alpha test team).
> 18)  PB's ASA  is an awesome DBMS. Coupled with MobilLink, makes some cool
> application designs possible.
>
> Any way here are just a few thoughts off the top of my head.
>
> regards ... Chris
> Great White North Technical Evangelist
>
>
> "Jeff" <jhersey@allnorth.com> wrote in message
> news:0cNqaih0CHA.198@forums.sybase.com...
> > I have used PB for 3.5 years now - I would not go back to VB (unless
> > required by our client).  Which is what may happen...
> >
> > I have a design meeting with an IT group to standardize their software
> > applications.  The IT group works for a health authority who has taken
the
> > initative to re-write all their current applications in one common
> > programming language.  I feel that PB is their best option but I can not
> > find anything around that says...
> >
> > PB is better than <enter other tool> becuase ...
> >
> > Unfortunately, most of the people I will be meeting with have a MS
> > background and use VB for their development.  What I need to be able to
do
> > is when they ask 'What about VB, Java, VB.Net,...' I need to have a
> comment
> > other than 'How about that datawindow...'.  There will be technical and
> non
> > technical staff present - so I need to convience the non-technical
> > members...
> >
> > Does anybody know of or have a link to a page that says PB has a history
> > of...
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > PS:
> > I have taken the list of PB applications from the Futures Discusion
> Forum...
> > --
> > Jeff
> >
> >
>
>


0
Michael
2/19/2003 8:48:45 PM
Number 4: Yeah, installing VS.NET is super slow. The reason (from what I
read) is that the framework class library is being compiled when you install
VS.NET. Compiling the framework allows platform specific optimisations. Same
reasoning goes with the JIT compiler. JITted codes have the potential to
execute faster than pre-compiled codes because platform specific
optimisations can be performed.  .... I could be wrong :)


"Chris Pollach" <cpollach@ajja.com> wrote in message
news:6104Fa40CHA.59@forums.sybase.com...
> No;
>
> 2) Overly complex to learn; Kills a normal client PC for performance; Does
> not work well unless client is XP; etc
> 4) More of a pig than Java! Took me over 1.3 hours to install VS.net
(full)
> on a 1.7GHZ machine. Ran just about as fast when compiling as well. PB 9
> blows the doors off this puppy.
> 5) Even slower than 1.2/1.3 and, those are real sad.
>
>
>
> <Clinton> wrote in message
> news:3D271E4853D998A2005E754A85256CCB.00534E4485256CCB@webforums...
> > These really represent strengths (hidden), not weaknesses.
> >
> > Clinton
> > http://mylinuxisp.com/~vmdd_tech
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > 2) .NET has over 4,800 objects and requires 35M of overhead at run time!
> > 4) The .NET SDK is over 135M!
> > 5) The new Java 1.4 SDK is over 62M with the run time overhead being
25M -
> > never mind your application!
>
>


0
Michael
2/19/2003 8:54:12 PM
Reply:

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