The Future of PowerBuilder

Hello!

Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
discontinued after version 8.0.

(I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)

At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
I came across the following article:

------------------------------------------------
The Future of PowerBuilder

Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that PowerBuilder
is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, "We are
in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions to
release versions after v 8.0"

Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st
Century".

Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
 http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
------------------------------------------------

I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors
over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything
to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for
PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.

Thanks,
O.J.



0
O
5/29/2001 1:31:50 PM
sybase.powerbuilder.general 62418 articles. 18 followers. Follow

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How many times can this issue be fleshed out???

AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware that PB is
their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large user base
and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar.

The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar and
features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style. IMO they
are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web development and
n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as a waste
of time.

The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more people's (
management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product.

A.

"O.J. Newman" wrote:

> Hello!
>
> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
> discontinued after version 8.0.
>
> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
>
> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
> I came across the following article:
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> The Future of PowerBuilder
>
> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that PowerBuilder
> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, "We are
> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions to
> release versions after v 8.0"
>
> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st
> Century".
>
> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors
> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything
> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for
> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
>
> Thanks,
> O.J.

0
adam
5/29/2001 2:30:44 PM
Definitely not true.

--
Terry Dykstra (TeamSybase)
Please state PB / OS / DB versions in your post.
MySybase http://my.sybase.com/mysybase
Search Deja: http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/search.asp

"O.J. Newman" <ojn@zoominternet.xxxx.net> wrote in message
news:3eaIkaE6AHA.249@forums.sybase.com...
> Hello!
>
> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
> discontinued after version 8.0.
>
> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
>
> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
> I came across the following article:
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> The Future of PowerBuilder
>
> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that
PowerBuilder
> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, "We
are
> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions to
> release versions after v 8.0"
>
> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st
> Century".
>
> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors
> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything
> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for
> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
>
> Thanks,
> O.J.
>
>
>


0
Terry
5/29/2001 2:38:11 PM
The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom EAS is
not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make our
customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run it
on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I should
say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating.
IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to third
party application servers as they are to DBMS servers.

adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>...
>How many times can this issue be fleshed out???
>
>AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware that
PB is
>their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large user
base
>and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar.
>
>The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar and
>features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style. IMO
they
>are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web development
and
>n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as a
waste
>of time.
>
>The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more
people's (
>management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product.
>
>A.
>
>"O.J. Newman" wrote:
>
>> Hello!
>>
>> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
>> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
>> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
>> discontinued after version 8.0.
>>
>> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
>> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
>> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
>>
>> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
>> I came across the following article:
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------
>> The Future of PowerBuilder
>>
>> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that
PowerBuilder
>> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, "We
are
>> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions to
>> release versions after v 8.0"
>>
>> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st
>> Century".
>>
>> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
>>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
>> ------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors
>> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything
>> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for
>> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> O.J.
>


0
Jerry
5/29/2001 6:32:18 PM
As long as PB continues to support windows controls (including Windows), it
will always be a valid 2-tier tool.  They are just adding app server
capabilities.  That's where everything is going and it's important that
Sybase lead the way.  Being able to do it with PB is a bonus as far as I am
concerned.


"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom EAS
is
> not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make our
> customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run it
> on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I
should
> say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating.
> IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to
third
> party application servers as they are to DBMS servers.
>
> adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>...
> >How many times can this issue be fleshed out???
> >
> >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware
that
> PB is
> >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large
user
> base
> >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar.
> >
> >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar
and
> >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style.
IMO
> they
> >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web development
> and
> >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as a
> waste
> >of time.
> >
> >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more
> people's (
> >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product.
> >
> >A.
> >
> >"O.J. Newman" wrote:
> >
> >> Hello!
> >>
> >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
> >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
> >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
> >> discontinued after version 8.0.
> >>
> >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
> >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
> >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
> >>
> >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
> >> I came across the following article:
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------
> >> The Future of PowerBuilder
> >>
> >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that
> PowerBuilder
> >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, "We
> are
> >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions to
> >> release versions after v 8.0"
> >>
> >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st
> >> Century".
> >>
> >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
> >>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
> >> ------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors
> >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything
> >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for
> >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> O.J.
> >
>
>


0
Daniel
5/29/2001 7:02:59 PM
True. But when J2EE capabilities are already built into the server we use,
it is shortsightedly greedy to ask use to ask our customers to buy another
piece of server software. Or didn't you notice that DPB is being disabled in
PB8?

Daniel Coppersmith wrote in message ...
>As long as PB continues to support windows controls (including Windows), it
>will always be a valid 2-tier tool.  They are just adding app server
>capabilities.  That's where everything is going and it's important that
>Sybase lead the way.  Being able to do it with PB is a bonus as far as I am
>concerned.
>
>
>"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
>news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
>> The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom EAS
>is
>> not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make
our
>> customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run
it
>> on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I
>should
>> say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating.
>> IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to
>third
>> party application servers as they are to DBMS servers.
>>
>> adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>...
>> >How many times can this issue be fleshed out???
>> >
>> >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware
>that
>> PB is
>> >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large
>user
>> base
>> >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar.
>> >
>> >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar
>and
>> >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style.
>IMO
>> they
>> >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web development
>> and
>> >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as a
>> waste
>> >of time.
>> >
>> >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more
>> people's (
>> >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product.
>> >
>> >A.
>> >
>> >"O.J. Newman" wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hello!
>> >>
>> >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
>> >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
>> >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
>> >> discontinued after version 8.0.
>> >>
>> >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
>> >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
>> >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
>> >>
>> >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
>> >> I came across the following article:
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------
>> >> The Future of PowerBuilder
>> >>
>> >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that
>> PowerBuilder
>> >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase,
"We
>> are
>> >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions to
>> >> release versions after v 8.0"
>> >>
>> >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st
>> >> Century".
>> >>
>> >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
>> >>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
>> >> ------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors
>> >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything
>> >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for
>> >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> O.J.
>> >
>>
>>
>
>


0
Jerry
5/29/2001 7:15:00 PM
Application servers are more robust than DPB, and thus it's demise.  You can
wrap PB in COM objects and use them in MTS.  Not sure about the other app
servers on the market though.

How would you want PB to be able to be used in transaction servers that it
cannot do today?  What server do you use?

"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
news:Ivn7XaH6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com...
> True. But when J2EE capabilities are already built into the server we use,
> it is shortsightedly greedy to ask use to ask our customers to buy another
> piece of server software. Or didn't you notice that DPB is being disabled
in
> PB8?
>
> Daniel Coppersmith wrote in message ...
> >As long as PB continues to support windows controls (including Windows),
it
> >will always be a valid 2-tier tool.  They are just adding app server
> >capabilities.  That's where everything is going and it's important that
> >Sybase lead the way.  Being able to do it with PB is a bonus as far as I
am
> >concerned.
> >
> >
> >"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> >news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> >> The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom
EAS
> >is
> >> not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make
> our
> >> customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run
> it
> >> on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I
> >should
> >> say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating.
> >> IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to
> >third
> >> party application servers as they are to DBMS servers.
> >>
> >> adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>...
> >> >How many times can this issue be fleshed out???
> >> >
> >> >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware
> >that
> >> PB is
> >> >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large
> >user
> >> base
> >> >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar.
> >> >
> >> >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to
jaguar
> >and
> >> >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java
style.
> >IMO
> >> they
> >> >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web
development
> >> and
> >> >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as
a
> >> waste
> >> >of time.
> >> >
> >> >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more
> >> people's (
> >> >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product.
> >> >
> >> >A.
> >> >
> >> >"O.J. Newman" wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Hello!
> >> >>
> >> >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
> >> >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
> >> >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
> >> >> discontinued after version 8.0.
> >> >>
> >> >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
> >> >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
> >> >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
> >> >>
> >> >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
> >> >> I came across the following article:
> >> >>
> >> >> ------------------------------------------------
> >> >> The Future of PowerBuilder
> >> >>
> >> >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that
> >> PowerBuilder
> >> >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase,
> "We
> >> are
> >> >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions
to
> >> >> release versions after v 8.0"
> >> >>
> >> >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the
21st
> >> >> Century".
> >> >>
> >> >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
> >> >>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
> >> >> ------------------------------------------------
> >> >>
> >> >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors
> >> >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything
> >> >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for
> >> >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks,
> >> >> O.J.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>


0
Daniel
5/29/2001 8:39:50 PM
Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow their
user base?

You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, not just
one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was 4-5
years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a different
movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its
engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere
Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector with
Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here?

PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. It
helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is quite
content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer
concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice out
there.

Already in the application server market and made your choice with a
competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase
to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just
because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license.

--
<hopethishelps />
Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com

"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom EAS
is
> not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make our
> customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run it
> on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I
should
> say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating.
> IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to
third
> party application servers as they are to DBMS servers.
>
> adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>...
> >How many times can this issue be fleshed out???
> >
> >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware
that
> PB is
> >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large
user
> base
> >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar.
> >
> >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar
and
> >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style.
IMO
> they
> >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web development
> and
> >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as a
> waste
> >of time.
> >
> >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more
> people's (
> >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product.
> >
> >A.
> >
> >"O.J. Newman" wrote:
> >
> >> Hello!
> >>
> >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
> >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
> >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
> >> discontinued after version 8.0.
> >>
> >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
> >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
> >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
> >>
> >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
> >> I came across the following article:
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------
> >> The Future of PowerBuilder
> >>
> >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that
> PowerBuilder
> >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, "We
> are
> >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions to
> >> release versions after v 8.0"
> >>
> >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st
> >> Century".
> >>
> >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
> >>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
> >> ------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors
> >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything
> >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for
> >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> O.J.
> >
>
>


0
Roy
5/30/2001 12:16:14 AM
Well said Roy
A.

"Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:

> Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow their
> user base?
>
> You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, not just
> one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was 4-5
> years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a different
> movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its
> engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere
> Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector with
> Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here?
>
> PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. It
> helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is quite
> content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer
> concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice out
> there.
>
> Already in the application server market and made your choice with a
> competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase
> to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just
> because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license.
>
> --
> <hopethishelps />
> Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
>
> "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom EAS
> is
> > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make our
> > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run it
> > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I
> should
> > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating.
> > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to
> third
> > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers.
> >
> > adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>...
> > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out???
> > >
> > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware
> that
> > PB is
> > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large
> user
> > base
> > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar.
> > >
> > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar
> and
> > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style.
> IMO
> > they
> > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web development
> > and
> > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as a
> > waste
> > >of time.
> > >
> > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more
> > people's (
> > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product.
> > >
> > >A.
> > >
> > >"O.J. Newman" wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hello!
> > >>
> > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
> > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
> > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
> > >> discontinued after version 8.0.
> > >>
> > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
> > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
> > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
> > >>
> > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
> > >> I came across the following article:
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > >> The Future of PowerBuilder
> > >>
> > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that
> > PowerBuilder
> > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase, "We
> > are
> > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions to
> > >> release versions after v 8.0"
> > >>
> > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st
> > >> Century".
> > >>
> > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
> > >>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
> > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors
> > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything
> > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for
> > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> O.J.
> > >
> >
> >

0
adam
5/30/2001 12:25:20 AM
It's Oracle 8i. It could be running on Unix, so COM is out. It's web
functions we are after, not transaction serving - just putting up a web dw
report is proving very difficult.

Daniel Coppersmith wrote in message ...
>Application servers are more robust than DPB, and thus it's demise.  You
can
>wrap PB in COM objects and use them in MTS.  Not sure about the other app
>servers on the market though.
>
>How would you want PB to be able to be used in transaction servers that it
>cannot do today?  What server do you use?
>
>"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
>news:Ivn7XaH6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com...
>> True. But when J2EE capabilities are already built into the server we
use,
>> it is shortsightedly greedy to ask use to ask our customers to buy
another
>> piece of server software. Or didn't you notice that DPB is being disabled
>in
>> PB8?
>>
>> Daniel Coppersmith wrote in message ...
>> >As long as PB continues to support windows controls (including Windows),
>it
>> >will always be a valid 2-tier tool.  They are just adding app server
>> >capabilities.  That's where everything is going and it's important that
>> >Sybase lead the way.  Being able to do it with PB is a bonus as far as I
>am
>> >concerned.
>> >
>> >
>> >"Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
>> >news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
>> >> The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom
>EAS
>> >is
>> >> not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make
>> our
>> >> customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to
run
>> it
>> >> on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I
>> >should
>> >> say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating.
>> >> IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to
>> >third
>> >> party application servers as they are to DBMS servers.
>> >>
>> >> adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>...
>> >> >How many times can this issue be fleshed out???
>> >> >
>> >> >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware
>> >that
>> >> PB is
>> >> >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large
>> >user
>> >> base
>> >> >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar.
>> >> >
>> >> >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to
>jaguar
>> >and
>> >> >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java
>style.
>> >IMO
>> >> they
>> >> >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web
>development
>> >> and
>> >> >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work
as
>a
>> >> waste
>> >> >of time.
>> >> >
>> >> >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more
>> >> people's (
>> >> >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product.
>> >> >
>> >> >A.
>> >> >
>> >> >"O.J. Newman" wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Hello!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
>> >> >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
>> >> >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
>> >> >> discontinued after version 8.0.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
>> >> >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
>> >> >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
>> >> >> I came across the following article:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> The Future of PowerBuilder
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that
>> >> PowerBuilder
>> >> >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase,
>> "We
>> >> are
>> >> >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions
>to
>> >> >> release versions after v 8.0"
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the
>21st
>> >> >> Century".
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
>> >> >>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors
>> >> >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything
>> >> >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for
>> >> >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Thanks,
>> >> >> O.J.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>


0
Jerry
5/30/2001 2:37:08 PM
So...in other words, being bought by Sybase was the worst thing that
happeneded to PowerBuilder
after all, wasn't it? Now it's not about PB anymore, it's about Sybase's
larger goals. I'm glad Sun
has more of a vision when it comes to Java and doesn't make it run only on
Sun hardware and with
only Sun-approved middleware (ditto for Delphi from Borland).

We just had a meeting this week at work about cancelling future support for
the Sybase DBMS in our
product (no one in the market wants it anymore). With Sybase's DBMS business
slowly out the door,
PB dying, EA Server and PowerJ still being limited mostly to older PB shops
(I still don't see it being mentioned as often as WebLogic or BEA amongs
PHBs), I wonder what Sybase's long-term strategy can be.
-
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jacek Furmankiewicz
STS Systems - http://www.stssystems.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in
message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com...
> Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow
their
> user base?
>
> You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, not
just
> one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was 4-5
> years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a different
> movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its
> engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere
> Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector with
> Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here?
>
> PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. It
> helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is quite
> content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer
> concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice out
> there.
>
> Already in the application server market and made your choice with a
> competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect
Sybase
> to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just
> because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license.
>
> --
> <hopethishelps />
> Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
>
> "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom
EAS
> is
> > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make
our
> > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run
it
> > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I
> should
> > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating.
> > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to
> third
> > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers.
> >
> > adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>...
> > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out???
> > >
> > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware
> that
> > PB is
> > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large
> user
> > base
> > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar.
> > >
> > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar
> and
> > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style.
> IMO
> > they
> > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web
development
> > and
> > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as
a
> > waste
> > >of time.
> > >
> > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more
> > people's (
> > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product.
> > >
> > >A.
> > >
> > >"O.J. Newman" wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hello!
> > >>
> > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
> > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
> > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
> > >> discontinued after version 8.0.
> > >>
> > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
> > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
> > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
> > >>
> > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
> > >> I came across the following article:
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > >> The Future of PowerBuilder
> > >>
> > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that
> > PowerBuilder
> > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase,
"We
> > are
> > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions
to
> > >> release versions after v 8.0"
> > >>
> > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st
> > >> Century".
> > >>
> > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
> > >>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
> > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors
> > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything
> > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for
> > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> O.J.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
Jacek
5/30/2001 2:40:02 PM
Roy,

Are you a Sybase employee?  Is this really the direction Sybase is going in?

If I do understand you correctly Sybase is currently or has been
concentrating on the E-Portal arena and Powerbuilder is only along for the
ride.  Roy just from a general point of view, how many e-portal programs
will be developed and how many smaller based applications will be developed
in the future?  What is the target market and I guess you feel that Sybase
can go head long against

I do not think that it is fair for you to make the comment that:  "Already
in the application server market and made your choice with a competing app
server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to invest
millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just because you
spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license."  For individual developers, this is
not a small sum.  The EA-server license is only for developement also and
more has to be spent for the deployement.  Sure we small time developers and
users of PB are worried about our livelihood.  Even for permanent employees
if the PB goes then what of us?

Microsoft in its evolution of VB has never left sight of the people who made
VB what it is today.  One of the reasons for the success of VB is the slow
but steady evolution that did not turn its back on the small developers.
This helped them as it also built a big base of applications and resources
(small time developers) out there that could easily be integrated into their
enterprise applications without retraining and with little engineering.

In comparison if PB is positioned such that it is only for the bigwigs and
enterprise systems it will see a demise in the usage at the lower level due
to the price entry problem.  Furthermore the evolution path taken by Sybase
for powerbuilder is seeing less usage of this tool in the market thus the
expertise base is going to shrink.  Who do you think smaller and mid sized
companies growing would select if when upsizing if they have most of thier
applications written in VB.

If this is the official marketing strategy of Sybase, I think it really
requires a rethink.  Who do you think we small farts would recommend if we
give up PB and go with IBM's visual age of Microsoft's VB?





"Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in
message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com...
> Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow
their
> user base?
>
> You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, not
just
> one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was 4-5
> years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a different
> movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its
> engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere
> Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector with
> Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here?
>
> PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. It
> helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is quite
> content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer
> concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice out
> there.
>
> Already in the application server market and made your choice with a
> competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect
Sybase
> to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just
> because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license.
>
> --
> <hopethishelps />
> Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
>
> "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom
EAS
> is
> > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make
our
> > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run
it
> > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I
> should
> > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating.
> > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to
> third
> > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers.
> >
> > adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>...
> > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out???
> > >
> > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware
> that
> > PB is
> > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large
> user
> > base
> > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar.
> > >
> > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar
> and
> > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style.
> IMO
> > they
> > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web
development
> > and
> > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as
a
> > waste
> > >of time.
> > >
> > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more
> > people's (
> > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product.
> > >
> > >A.
> > >
> > >"O.J. Newman" wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hello!
> > >>
> > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
> > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
> > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
> > >> discontinued after version 8.0.
> > >>
> > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
> > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
> > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
> > >>
> > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
> > >> I came across the following article:
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > >> The Future of PowerBuilder
> > >>
> > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that
> > PowerBuilder
> > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase,
"We
> > are
> > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions
to
> > >> release versions after v 8.0"
> > >>
> > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st
> > >> Century".
> > >>
> > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
> > >>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
> > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors
> > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything
> > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for
> > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> O.J.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
DPC
5/30/2001 2:58:55 PM
Roy is not a Sybase employee.....  that's a given since he's part of the
TEAMSYBASE which is a user based group.

P.
DPC wrote in message ...
>Roy,
>
>Are you a Sybase employee?  Is this really the direction Sybase is going
in?
>
>If I do understand you correctly Sybase is currently or has been
>concentrating on the E-Portal arena and Powerbuilder is only along for the
>ride.  Roy just from a general point of view, how many e-portal programs
>will be developed and how many smaller based applications will be developed
>in the future?  What is the target market and I guess you feel that Sybase
>can go head long against
>
>I do not think that it is fair for you to make the comment that:  "Already
>in the application server market and made your choice with a competing app
>server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to invest
>millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just because you
>spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license."  For individual developers, this is
>not a small sum.  The EA-server license is only for developement also and
>more has to be spent for the deployement.  Sure we small time developers
and
>users of PB are worried about our livelihood.  Even for permanent employees
>if the PB goes then what of us?
>
>Microsoft in its evolution of VB has never left sight of the people who
made
>VB what it is today.  One of the reasons for the success of VB is the slow
>but steady evolution that did not turn its back on the small developers.
>This helped them as it also built a big base of applications and resources
>(small time developers) out there that could easily be integrated into
their
>enterprise applications without retraining and with little engineering.
>
>In comparison if PB is positioned such that it is only for the bigwigs and
>enterprise systems it will see a demise in the usage at the lower level due
>to the price entry problem.  Furthermore the evolution path taken by Sybase
>for powerbuilder is seeing less usage of this tool in the market thus the
>expertise base is going to shrink.  Who do you think smaller and mid sized
>companies growing would select if when upsizing if they have most of thier
>applications written in VB.
>
>If this is the official marketing strategy of Sybase, I think it really
>requires a rethink.  Who do you think we small farts would recommend if we
>give up PB and go with IBM's visual age of Microsoft's VB?
>
>
>
>
>
>"Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in
>message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com...
>> Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow
>their
>> user base?
>>
>> You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, not
>just
>> one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was
4-5
>> years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a different
>> movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its
>> engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere
>> Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector
with
>> Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here?
>>
>> PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. It
>> helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is quite
>> content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer
>> concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice out
>> there.
>>
>> Already in the application server market and made your choice with a
>> competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect
>Sybase
>> to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just
>> because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license.
>>
>> --
>> <hopethishelps />
>> Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
>> mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
>>
>> "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
>> news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
>> > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom
>EAS
>> is
>> > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make
>our
>> > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run
>it
>> > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I
>> should
>> > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating.
>> > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to
>> third
>> > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers.
>> >
>> > adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>...
>> > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out???
>> > >
>> > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware
>> that
>> > PB is
>> > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large
>> user
>> > base
>> > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar.
>> > >
>> > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to
jaguar
>> and
>> > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java
style.
>> IMO
>> > they
>> > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web
>development
>> > and
>> > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as
>a
>> > waste
>> > >of time.
>> > >
>> > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more
>> > people's (
>> > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product.
>> > >
>> > >A.
>> > >
>> > >"O.J. Newman" wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Hello!
>> > >>
>> > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
>> > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
>> > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
>> > >> discontinued after version 8.0.
>> > >>
>> > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
>> > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
>> > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
>> > >>
>> > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
>> > >> I came across the following article:
>> > >>
>> > >> ------------------------------------------------
>> > >> The Future of PowerBuilder
>> > >>
>> > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that
>> > PowerBuilder
>> > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase,
>"We
>> > are
>> > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions
>to
>> > >> release versions after v 8.0"
>> > >>
>> > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the
21st
>> > >> Century".
>> > >>
>> > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
>> > >>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
>> > >> ------------------------------------------------
>> > >>
>> > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors
>> > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything
>> > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for
>> > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
>> > >>
>> > >> Thanks,
>> > >> O.J.
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>


0
Philippe
5/30/2001 3:17:30 PM
Seems like this debate has been going on for years and yet Sybase still
makes money.  That might be something.

Roy's comments from above seem very relavent.  Sybase is a market driven
company.  PB ran on Mac and Unix, but the market wasn't there for it so they
dropped it.  If you build a product and don't sell enough to make a profit,
prudence demands you re-evaluate whether you want to keep making it.

Comparing PB to Java is unfair.  First, PB was an established client-server
development tool long before Java was an itch in Sun's pants.  Java still is
not a production grade Windows development tool in my mind, and may never
be.  Java was developed to "develop once run anywhere" (yeah, in theory).
PB works great in EA Server.  PB doesn't work in other servers because they
don't have the PBVM.  Should Sybase try to convince WebLogic and BEA to
include the PBVM?  I think that's a great idea, but I haven't done any
research.  It might not be worth the effort.

PB continues to be a premier Windows development tool.  I would gladly pit
any <skilled> PB developer against the field for developing Windows apps.
But the simple fact of the matter is client-server is being replaced.
Sybase needs to make money.  It's great that Java runs on everybody's
servers, but how much money does Sun make from Java running on BEA or
WebLogic?

Welcome to the 21st century.  You have a plethera of tools to pick from, but
pick wisely.  Not all will be around.  Do I think Sybase will be around, I
do.  Are you doing client server development?  Then PBs a great choice.  Are
you doing web work and can pick your server?  Then EAS with PB or C++ or
Java components are a great choice.  Do you have no control over your
server?  Well, maybe Sybase isn't a fit.


"Jacek Furmankiewicz" <jfurmankiewicz@stssystems.com> wrote in message
news:c4QAWlR6AHA.178@forums.sybase.com...
> So...in other words, being bought by Sybase was the worst thing that
> happeneded to PowerBuilder
> after all, wasn't it? Now it's not about PB anymore, it's about Sybase's
> larger goals. I'm glad Sun
> has more of a vision when it comes to Java and doesn't make it run only on
> Sun hardware and with
> only Sun-approved middleware (ditto for Delphi from Borland).
>
> We just had a meeting this week at work about cancelling future support
for
> the Sybase DBMS in our
> product (no one in the market wants it anymore). With Sybase's DBMS
business
> slowly out the door,
> PB dying, EA Server and PowerJ still being limited mostly to older PB
shops
> (I still don't see it being mentioned as often as WebLogic or BEA amongs
> PHBs), I wonder what Sybase's long-term strategy can be.
> -
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jacek Furmankiewicz
> STS Systems - http://www.stssystems.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in
> message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com...
> > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow
> their
> > user base?
> >
> > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, not
> just
> > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was
4-5
> > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a
different
> > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its
> > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere
> > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector
with
> > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here?
> >
> > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. It
> > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is
quite
> > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer
> > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice
out
> > there.
> >
> > Already in the application server market and made your choice with a
> > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect
> Sybase
> > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just
> > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license.
> >
> > --
> > <hopethishelps />
> > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> >
> > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom
> EAS
> > is
> > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make
> our
> > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to
run
> it
> > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I
> > should
> > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating.
> > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to
> > third
> > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers.
> > >
> > > adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>...
> > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out???
> > > >
> > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware
> > that
> > > PB is
> > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large
> > user
> > > base
> > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar.
> > > >
> > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to
jaguar
> > and
> > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java
style.
> > IMO
> > > they
> > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web
> development
> > > and
> > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work
as
> a
> > > waste
> > > >of time.
> > > >
> > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more
> > > people's (
> > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product.
> > > >
> > > >A.
> > > >
> > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hello!
> > > >>
> > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
> > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
> > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
> > > >> discontinued after version 8.0.
> > > >>
> > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
> > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
> > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
> > > >>
> > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
> > > >> I came across the following article:
> > > >>
> > > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder
> > > >>
> > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that
> > > PowerBuilder
> > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase,
> "We
> > > are
> > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions
> to
> > > >> release versions after v 8.0"
> > > >>
> > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the
21st
> > > >> Century".
> > > >>
> > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
> > > >>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
> > > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > > >>
> > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors
> > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything
> > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for
> > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks,
> > > >> O.J.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
Daniel
5/30/2001 3:38:40 PM
I think you may be going overboard just a little here Jacek. I don't think
anyone is going to contest that PB has lost it's stranglehold on the
client-server industry that it had a few years ago. However, Sybase's DBMS
slowly out the door??? Sybase has not lost marketshare in the DBMS world. It's
license revenue on DBMS's has increased over the past 2 years (not decreased),
they dominate the mobile market, they have a strong foothold in the portal
market, and they have concluded that the pure app-server market is not the
bottomless pit that everyone first thought. If you think back, what was the
turning point for the Sybase/Oracle wars?? Yes, Sybase System 10 was a part of
it, but the much bigger part was Oracle's supporting products, the financial
services, hooks into SAP etc that gave them the lead. Now Sybase is doing the
same thing, building verticals on top of their app-server that support the
products everyone is already using, like Portals, Financials, CRM, Data
Warehousing, etc etc. Sybase is *NOT* Powersoft, it's much, much more than that
and anyone that just spends a little time looking at their product portfolio
will be able to determine what direction they are taking.

Everyone has already figured out that the future is not Tools. You need tools to
support more long-term products like app-servers, DBMS's etc. That's where I see
Sybase's focus right now. We're developers, so our focus is on tools and that's
where we'd like Sybase to focus, but that ain't gonna happen. Look at Borland.
They have some great tools. No-one has ever argued that fact, but that has not
exactly made them the powerhouse success story has it? IBM, Oracle, Microsoft,
Sun have made their living feeding off a core product set and providing the
supporting tools and services. Sybase had lost that focus and actually,
acquiring Powersoft all those years ago was just the beginning of a re-focus.
Now their strategy is beginning to unfold and take shape. Ever wondered why the
Oracle "million dollar" bet doesn't include Sybase and yet they are targeting
Sybase customers specifically in other areas? Oracle reps will tell you it's
because they don't consider Sybase a competitor (in their own inimitable
arrogance) and yet they're going after that specific market because they're now
seeing Oracle customers switching to Sybase (I'm seeing this myself at 2
clients, so I know it's happening).

Also, if you take the time to ask, you'll also find that the EAServer client
list is not predominantly ex-PB shops. Yes, PB shops are *more likely* to go
with an EAServer, but don't even consider that all Sybase shops are PB Shops.

Just because a vision is not clear to everyone doesn't mean it's not a vision,
or that it's not the correct vision. Anytime you see an IBM teaming up with
Sybase, or at least acknowledging that they need Sybase products to support
their own customers (can anyone spell NEON), you have to see that they are on
the right track. We may not like it, but you know what, that's probably why
we're not running Sybase or Microsoft or Sun.

Are they doing everything right? I don't know. I know there are things that *I*
would do differently, but I do know that I am not the CEO of a billion-dollar
company (and yes, Sybase will once again reach that plateau this financial year,
something analysts said was impossible just 3 years ago), so I took some time to
try and figure out what they are doing and why they are going there. I don't
pretend to know all the answers, but I'm pretty sure that I have a reasonable
idea and quite honestly, I like the view I'm seeing. It's been a while since
Oracle looked at Sybase customers hungrily rather than looking as if it was
something stuck to their shoe. The difference now is that Sybase is staring them
right back in the face and saying "Take your best shot. We won't go down again".



--- Note: Prior opinion is mine, and mine only. Not even my wife will take
responsibility anymore



regards,
Bill





Jacek Furmankiewicz wrote:

> So...in other words, being bought by Sybase was the worst thing that
> happeneded to PowerBuilder
> after all, wasn't it? Now it's not about PB anymore, it's about Sybase's
> larger goals. I'm glad Sun
> has more of a vision when it comes to Java and doesn't make it run only on
> Sun hardware and with
> only Sun-approved middleware (ditto for Delphi from Borland).
>
> We just had a meeting this week at work about cancelling future support for
> the Sybase DBMS in our
> product (no one in the market wants it anymore). With Sybase's DBMS business
> slowly out the door,
> PB dying, EA Server and PowerJ still being limited mostly to older PB shops
> (I still don't see it being mentioned as often as WebLogic or BEA amongs
> PHBs), I wonder what Sybase's long-term strategy can be.
> -
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jacek Furmankiewicz
> STS Systems - http://www.stssystems.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in
> message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com...
> > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow
> their
> > user base?
> >
> > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, not
> just
> > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was 4-5
> > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a different
> > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its
> > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere
> > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector with
> > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here?
> >
> > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. It
> > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is quite
> > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer
> > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice out
> > there.
> >
> > Already in the application server market and made your choice with a
> > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect
> Sybase
> > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just
> > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license.
> >
> > --
> > <hopethishelps />
> > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> >
> > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom
> EAS
> > is
> > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make
> our
> > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run
> it
> > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I
> > should
> > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating.
> > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to
> > third
> > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers.
> > >
> > > adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>...
> > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out???
> > > >
> > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware
> > that
> > > PB is
> > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large
> > user
> > > base
> > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar.
> > > >
> > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar
> > and
> > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style.
> > IMO
> > > they
> > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web
> development
> > > and
> > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as
> a
> > > waste
> > > >of time.
> > > >
> > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more
> > > people's (
> > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product.
> > > >
> > > >A.
> > > >
> > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hello!
> > > >>
> > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
> > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
> > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
> > > >> discontinued after version 8.0.
> > > >>
> > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
> > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
> > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
> > > >>
> > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
> > > >> I came across the following article:
> > > >>
> > > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder
> > > >>
> > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that
> > > PowerBuilder
> > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase,
> "We
> > > are
> > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions
> to
> > > >> release versions after v 8.0"
> > > >>
> > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st
> > > >> Century".
> > > >>
> > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
> > > >>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
> > > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > > >>
> > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors
> > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything
> > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for
> > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks,
> > > >> O.J.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >

--
Bill Green[TeamSybase]
-----------------------------------------------------------
Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards
http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/


Good Links to know, good places to go:

Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often
Find things like:
-- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available
-- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available
-- Components, White papers, articles and more
-- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
-- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)

PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com

Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


0
Bill
5/30/2001 3:44:41 PM
I think you missed the main points of Roy's argument.  He was saying that EA
Server is the basis point of Sybase's strategies as all other things revolve
around it - the portal product is built on it, PB components run in it, the
financal products are built on it and the wireless techonology is built on
it.

Sybase is not going to kill PB anytime soon.  PB desktop is dirt cheap.  PB
enterprise is cheap too for anyone doing any substantial development when
compared to the big picture.  Just because Sybase is focusing on making PB
more compatible with EA Server does not mean they are going to suddenly rip
out all the Windows platform capabilities.  It'll still be there.  You can
still use PB to do traditional client server development.

Roy's point about the $3k license is that Sybase is not going to drop
everything it is doing to attend to the needs of people who picked a
different app server that does not support PB components, knowing full well
that it didn't.  These folks picked middlewear incompatible with PB and so
they need to move on to a tool that is compatible with their server.

Do I think making the PBVM run in WebLogic or BEA would be a great idea?
Absolutely.  Am I holding my breath? No.

Sybase has an incredible toolset here.  Sybase marketing has been piss poor
in the past.  It's supposed to get better, but again, I am not holding my
breath.

I still use PB for client server development, I wouldn't pick anything else.
I use PB components in EA Server because it's incredibly fast to develop, I
leverage my existing knowledge and the tools are easy to use.  If I am
forced to change app servers, I'll have to lobby against the change of
servers, change jobs or change tools, it's a simple as that.

As for the comment on VB, from what I hear, migrating a VB app to VB.NET is
more like a complete re-write.  So is VB.NET an upgrade of VB or is it a new
language altogether?

Just out of curiosity, does WebLogic and BEA run VB.NET components?


"DPC" <derrick@lotuschan.com> wrote in message
news:eucUPqR6AHA.178@forums.sybase.com...
> Roy,
>
> Are you a Sybase employee?  Is this really the direction Sybase is going
in?
>
> If I do understand you correctly Sybase is currently or has been
> concentrating on the E-Portal arena and Powerbuilder is only along for the
> ride.  Roy just from a general point of view, how many e-portal programs
> will be developed and how many smaller based applications will be
developed
> in the future?  What is the target market and I guess you feel that Sybase
> can go head long against
>
> I do not think that it is fair for you to make the comment that:  "Already
> in the application server market and made your choice with a competing app
> server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to invest
> millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just because you
> spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license."  For individual developers, this is
> not a small sum.  The EA-server license is only for developement also and
> more has to be spent for the deployement.  Sure we small time developers
and
> users of PB are worried about our livelihood.  Even for permanent
employees
> if the PB goes then what of us?
>
> Microsoft in its evolution of VB has never left sight of the people who
made
> VB what it is today.  One of the reasons for the success of VB is the slow
> but steady evolution that did not turn its back on the small developers.
> This helped them as it also built a big base of applications and resources
> (small time developers) out there that could easily be integrated into
their
> enterprise applications without retraining and with little engineering.
>
> In comparison if PB is positioned such that it is only for the bigwigs and
> enterprise systems it will see a demise in the usage at the lower level
due
> to the price entry problem.  Furthermore the evolution path taken by
Sybase
> for powerbuilder is seeing less usage of this tool in the market thus the
> expertise base is going to shrink.  Who do you think smaller and mid sized
> companies growing would select if when upsizing if they have most of thier
> applications written in VB.
>
> If this is the official marketing strategy of Sybase, I think it really
> requires a rethink.  Who do you think we small farts would recommend if we
> give up PB and go with IBM's visual age of Microsoft's VB?
>
>
>
>
>
> "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in
> message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com...
> > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow
> their
> > user base?
> >
> > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, not
> just
> > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was
4-5
> > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a
different
> > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its
> > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere
> > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector
with
> > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here?
> >
> > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. It
> > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is
quite
> > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer
> > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice
out
> > there.
> >
> > Already in the application server market and made your choice with a
> > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect
> Sybase
> > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just
> > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license.
> >
> > --
> > <hopethishelps />
> > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> >
> > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom
> EAS
> > is
> > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make
> our
> > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to
run
> it
> > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I
> > should
> > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating.
> > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to
> > third
> > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers.
> > >
> > > adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>...
> > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out???
> > > >
> > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware
> > that
> > > PB is
> > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large
> > user
> > > base
> > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar.
> > > >
> > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to
jaguar
> > and
> > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java
style.
> > IMO
> > > they
> > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web
> development
> > > and
> > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work
as
> a
> > > waste
> > > >of time.
> > > >
> > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more
> > > people's (
> > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product.
> > > >
> > > >A.
> > > >
> > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hello!
> > > >>
> > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
> > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
> > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
> > > >> discontinued after version 8.0.
> > > >>
> > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
> > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
> > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
> > > >>
> > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
> > > >> I came across the following article:
> > > >>
> > > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder
> > > >>
> > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that
> > > PowerBuilder
> > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase,
> "We
> > > are
> > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions
> to
> > > >> release versions after v 8.0"
> > > >>
> > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the
21st
> > > >> Century".
> > > >>
> > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
> > > >>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
> > > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > > >>
> > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors
> > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything
> > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for
> > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks,
> > > >> O.J.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
Daniel
5/30/2001 3:56:23 PM
PowerBuilder has *always* been targeted as an Enterprise Development Tool and
probably always will. There was a token offering of PB Desktop, and PB
Professional has been mildly successful, but the bread-and-butter has always
been the enterprise. Microsoft has always targeted the individual and when they
realized that future profits will not come from individuals buying products at
$149 per, they shifted their focus to the enterprise also. Maybe you havn't
noticed, but VB.Net is not targeting the lower end developer. According to
analysts, VB developers are leaving the Microsoft product set in droves. (I
forget the link to that article, or I'd include it here) because the leap from
VB to VB.Net no longer targets the individual.

And it would really be a leap to say that IBM targets the individuals with
products like Visual Age. I think everyone is missing the point that tools are
no longer anyone's focus, but have been relegated to supporting roles. If
Portals are the "next big thing", and Sybase e-Portal becomes the player they
believe it will, and ePortal is based on EAServer, what skills do you currently
own that you can use to contribute to your company/clients future growth with
their portal? PowerBuilder, that's what. If you work at a client that is
developing wireless technology, and they choose to use the iAnywhere Wireless
Server, what skills do you have today that could be useful in that market?
PowerBuilder. If your company decides that they need to connect their employees
to their CRM and HR systems (as quite a few major companies are already doing),
and they need to determine the software infrastructure to connect their
employees to their SAP/Peoplesoft/other enterprise systems, do you think they
might opt to choose a product like NEON who dominates that marketspace? And Neon
Adapters will connect to those services from EAServer or EAServer verticals. You
know what product set might come in useful? PowerBuilder.

Sure, if you know Java, you have the same advantage, but the point is that
future directions do not obsolete your skillset all the time. And if this were
not the right direction, then why would Microsoft and Oracle and IBM be building
their own products to compete in the same space? (See Microsoft Portal in the
latest MSDN shipment).

PowerBuilder's loss in marketshare is attributable to three things. Java, a bad
product release (7.0 was *not* the best thing that Sybase ever shipped), and a
slow realization of the changing market. Then again, you'll see the same thing
if you look at any productset out there like VB, Delphi, and even stuff like
C++. Time change, people shift. If you think that it won't happen again, even
with something like Java, then you're fooling yourself. The question is whether
you recognize it early enough and are willing to adapt (hence C++ will never go
away, but will continue to see a shrinking market, whereas SmallTalk is
virtually off the map). I think Sybase realized it pretty late in the game, but
my opinion is that they realized it in time, so you may see some shrinkage in
the world we're used to (client-server), but you will also see some growth in
other areas (n-tier, middle-tier based solutions).


regards,
Bill


DPC wrote:

> Roy,
>
> Are you a Sybase employee?  Is this really the direction Sybase is going in?
>
> If I do understand you correctly Sybase is currently or has been
> concentrating on the E-Portal arena and Powerbuilder is only along for the
> ride.  Roy just from a general point of view, how many e-portal programs
> will be developed and how many smaller based applications will be developed
> in the future?  What is the target market and I guess you feel that Sybase
> can go head long against
>
> I do not think that it is fair for you to make the comment that:  "Already
> in the application server market and made your choice with a competing app
> server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to invest
> millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just because you
> spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license."  For individual developers, this is
> not a small sum.  The EA-server license is only for developement also and
> more has to be spent for the deployement.  Sure we small time developers and
> users of PB are worried about our livelihood.  Even for permanent employees
> if the PB goes then what of us?
>
> Microsoft in its evolution of VB has never left sight of the people who made
> VB what it is today.  One of the reasons for the success of VB is the slow
> but steady evolution that did not turn its back on the small developers.
> This helped them as it also built a big base of applications and resources
> (small time developers) out there that could easily be integrated into their
> enterprise applications without retraining and with little engineering.
>
> In comparison if PB is positioned such that it is only for the bigwigs and
> enterprise systems it will see a demise in the usage at the lower level due
> to the price entry problem.  Furthermore the evolution path taken by Sybase
> for powerbuilder is seeing less usage of this tool in the market thus the
> expertise base is going to shrink.  Who do you think smaller and mid sized
> companies growing would select if when upsizing if they have most of thier
> applications written in VB.
>
> If this is the official marketing strategy of Sybase, I think it really
> requires a rethink.  Who do you think we small farts would recommend if we
> give up PB and go with IBM's visual age of Microsoft's VB?
>
> "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in
> message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com...
> > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow
> their
> > user base?
> >
> > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, not
> just
> > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was 4-5
> > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a different
> > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its
> > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere
> > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector with
> > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here?
> >
> > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. It
> > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is quite
> > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer
> > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice out
> > there.
> >
> > Already in the application server market and made your choice with a
> > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect
> Sybase
> > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just
> > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license.
> >
> > --
> > <hopethishelps />
> > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> >
> > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom
> EAS
> > is
> > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make
> our
> > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to run
> it
> > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I
> > should
> > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating.
> > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to
> > third
> > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers.
> > >
> > > adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>...
> > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out???
> > > >
> > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware
> > that
> > > PB is
> > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large
> > user
> > > base
> > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar.
> > > >
> > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to jaguar
> > and
> > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java style.
> > IMO
> > > they
> > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web
> development
> > > and
> > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work as
> a
> > > waste
> > > >of time.
> > > >
> > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more
> > > people's (
> > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product.
> > > >
> > > >A.
> > > >
> > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hello!
> > > >>
> > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
> > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
> > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
> > > >> discontinued after version 8.0.
> > > >>
> > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
> > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
> > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
> > > >>
> > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
> > > >> I came across the following article:
> > > >>
> > > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder
> > > >>
> > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that
> > > PowerBuilder
> > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase,
> "We
> > > are
> > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions
> to
> > > >> release versions after v 8.0"
> > > >>
> > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the 21st
> > > >> Century".
> > > >>
> > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
> > > >>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
> > > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > > >>
> > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors
> > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything
> > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for
> > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks,
> > > >> O.J.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >

--
Bill Green[TeamSybase]
-----------------------------------------------------------
Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards
http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/


Good Links to know, good places to go:

Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often
Find things like:
-- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available
-- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available
-- Components, White papers, articles and more
-- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
-- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)

PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com

Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


0
Bill
5/30/2001 4:04:32 PM
Bill,

I am not saying that the desktop or pro is a truly viable product as most
developers use Powerbuilder Enterprise.  As for the 3K, it may be a drop in
a bucket for companies, but for the individual developer/consultant this is
not a small thing especially as we want to leverage our experiences and
monetary investments (this does not include the cost and time  for training
etc.).

Yes I agree that java due to its popularity and versatility has caused
power builder to loose its foothold.  However I also know of many companies
that have gone back to VB.  And it would be foolish to expect java to be the
end all.

What is happening is the fact that many of us who had signed on to
Powerbuilder are finding that the market out there is getting smaller for
us.  Jobs are getting scarce for both contract and permanent jobs.  I guess
from all the postings, the small fries like us are trying to know whether we
should say Sayonara to PB and bid it adieu.  It is hardly feeding us and if
Sybase is not concerned about this then it would be catering to only the big
businesses that buys into Sybases's suite of products and it would be
loosing not only an install base but a resource base also.

How many big businesses are there that want to install portals?  How many of
us will be able to gain contracts and jobs for these projects.  What many of
us small fries are concerned about, is our survival.   Our concern is that
the interoperability with other products could be made possible and
simplified which would help bolster the sales of powerbuilder.  From my
experience there is a big market out there for intranet software development
but it is hard to sell to companies that powerbuilder is the way to go due
to the lukewarm attitude of Sybase and the fact that it is a shrinking
market.

When you talk about n-tier and middle-tier, what do you mean by middle-tier.
Am I not correct to say that ONLY if a company buys into Jaguar, would the
"possibility" of leveraging on our PB knowledge be a factor.  Whether n-tier
or client server to me they are the same market for a PB developer,as you
stated we are looking at Enterprise models.

On your n-tier growth, I have not seen much of it in Southern California.
If I am wrong, I would like to know how many companies here are using the
full Sybase n-tier development with PB.  How many have jobs open?  Having
paid a few K for the EAS.  Should I pay 4-5K for the class/passport on the
EAS?  What is a likelihood of getting a job in Southern California using
EAS?  I have been trying to use EAS on W2K and have not been successful for
the last 8 months.  I stopped until 3.6.1 was release as it was stated that
it would be 2000 compliant but when I installed C5 it gave me other
problems.  If I could get this off the ground maybe I could help sell the
idea of using "EAS" to one of the former companies I used to contract with.

Shouldn't Sybase have more partnerships with developers and go into joint
development to help build the market.  If we had some major systems like a
HRMS system that is widely used, built with EAS it would sure help the
market and our confidence in Sybase.  I think it is a worthwhile for Sybase
to look into these matters.  I know the they have the financial system what
about building other quality systems that could vie against companies like
Peoplesoft, Oracles HR etc.  We small fries would like to survive and with
Sybase if possible; however for all you and everyone else have said it is
not very comforting and small fries like me are still in a quandary as to
cut our losses at this point or to forge ahead with Sybase.  Is Sybase
persuing more joint development of projects so that projects will be
developed using EAS, just like what is done by companies such as IBM, HP,
etc.



"Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message
news:3B151A10.DDE76E0B@teamsybase.com...
> PowerBuilder has *always* been targeted as an Enterprise Development Tool
and
> probably always will. There was a token offering of PB Desktop, and PB
> Professional has been mildly successful, but the bread-and-butter has
always
> been the enterprise. Microsoft has always targeted the individual and when
they
> realized that future profits will not come from individuals buying
products at
> $149 per, they shifted their focus to the enterprise also. Maybe you
havn't
> noticed, but VB.Net is not targeting the lower end developer. According to
> analysts, VB developers are leaving the Microsoft product set in droves.
(I
> forget the link to that article, or I'd include it here) because the leap
from
> VB to VB.Net no longer targets the individual.
>
> And it would really be a leap to say that IBM targets the individuals with
> products like Visual Age. I think everyone is missing the point that tools
are
> no longer anyone's focus, but have been relegated to supporting roles. If
> Portals are the "next big thing", and Sybase e-Portal becomes the player
they
> believe it will, and ePortal is based on EAServer, what skills do you
currently
> own that you can use to contribute to your company/clients future growth
with
> their portal? PowerBuilder, that's what. If you work at a client that is
> developing wireless technology, and they choose to use the iAnywhere
Wireless
> Server, what skills do you have today that could be useful in that market?
> PowerBuilder. If your company decides that they need to connect their
employees
> to their CRM and HR systems (as quite a few major companies are already
doing),
> and they need to determine the software infrastructure to connect their
> employees to their SAP/Peoplesoft/other enterprise systems, do you think
they
> might opt to choose a product like NEON who dominates that marketspace?
And Neon
> Adapters will connect to those services from EAServer or EAServer
verticals. You
> know what product set might come in useful? PowerBuilder.
>
> Sure, if you know Java, you have the same advantage, but the point is that
> future directions do not obsolete your skillset all the time. And if this
were
> not the right direction, then why would Microsoft and Oracle and IBM be
building
> their own products to compete in the same space? (See Microsoft Portal in
the
> latest MSDN shipment).
>
> PowerBuilder's loss in marketshare is attributable to three things. Java,
a bad
> product release (7.0 was *not* the best thing that Sybase ever shipped),
and a
> slow realization of the changing market. Then again, you'll see the same
thing
> if you look at any productset out there like VB, Delphi, and even stuff
like
> C++. Time change, people shift. If you think that it won't happen again,
even
> with something like Java, then you're fooling yourself. The question is
whether
> you recognize it early enough and are willing to adapt (hence C++ will
never go
> away, but will continue to see a shrinking market, whereas SmallTalk is
> virtually off the map). I think Sybase realized it pretty late in the
game, but
> my opinion is that they realized it in time, so you may see some shrinkage
in
> the world we're used to (client-server), but you will also see some growth
in
> other areas (n-tier, middle-tier based solutions).
>
>
> regards,
> Bill
>
>
> DPC wrote:
>
> > Roy,
> >
> > Are you a Sybase employee?  Is this really the direction Sybase is going
in?
> >
> > If I do understand you correctly Sybase is currently or has been
> > concentrating on the E-Portal arena and Powerbuilder is only along for
the
> > ride.  Roy just from a general point of view, how many e-portal programs
> > will be developed and how many smaller based applications will be
developed
> > in the future?  What is the target market and I guess you feel that
Sybase
> > can go head long against
> >
> > I do not think that it is fair for you to make the comment that:
"Already
> > in the application server market and made your choice with a competing
app
> > server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to invest
> > millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just because
you
> > spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license."  For individual developers, this
is
> > not a small sum.  The EA-server license is only for developement also
and
> > more has to be spent for the deployement.  Sure we small time developers
and
> > users of PB are worried about our livelihood.  Even for permanent
employees
> > if the PB goes then what of us?
> >
> > Microsoft in its evolution of VB has never left sight of the people who
made
> > VB what it is today.  One of the reasons for the success of VB is the
slow
> > but steady evolution that did not turn its back on the small developers.
> > This helped them as it also built a big base of applications and
resources
> > (small time developers) out there that could easily be integrated into
their
> > enterprise applications without retraining and with little engineering.
> >
> > In comparison if PB is positioned such that it is only for the bigwigs
and
> > enterprise systems it will see a demise in the usage at the lower level
due
> > to the price entry problem.  Furthermore the evolution path taken by
Sybase
> > for powerbuilder is seeing less usage of this tool in the market thus
the
> > expertise base is going to shrink.  Who do you think smaller and mid
sized
> > companies growing would select if when upsizing if they have most of
thier
> > applications written in VB.
> >
> > If this is the official marketing strategy of Sybase, I think it really
> > requires a rethink.  Who do you think we small farts would recommend if
we
> > give up PB and go with IBM's visual age of Microsoft's VB?
> >
> > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote
in
> > message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com...
> > > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow
> > their
> > > user base?
> > >
> > > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals,
not
> > just
> > > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was
4-5
> > > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a
different
> > > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its
> > > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere
> > > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector
with
> > > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here?
> > >
> > > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer.
It
> > > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is
quite
> > > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer
> > > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice
out
> > > there.
> > >
> > > Already in the application server market and made your choice with a
> > > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect
> > Sybase
> > > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure
just
> > > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license.
> > >
> > > --
> > > <hopethishelps />
> > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > >
> > > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> > > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for
whom
> > EAS
> > > is
> > > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to
make
> > our
> > > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to
run
> > it
> > > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe
I
> > > should
> > > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is
excruciating.
> > > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open
to
> > > third
> > > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers.
> > > >
> > > > adam simmonds wrote in message
<3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>...
> > > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out???
> > > > >
> > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are
aware
> > > that
> > > > PB is
> > > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the
large
> > > user
> > > > base
> > > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar.
> > > > >
> > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to
jaguar
> > > and
> > > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java
style.
> > > IMO
> > > > they
> > > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web
> > development
> > > > and
> > > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work
as
> > a
> > > > waste
> > > > >of time.
> > > > >
> > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the
more
> > > > people's (
> > > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product.
> > > > >
> > > > >A.
> > > > >
> > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Hello!
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
> > > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
> > > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
> > > > >> discontinued after version 8.0.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
> > > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
> > > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
> > > > >> I came across the following article:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that
> > > > PowerBuilder
> > > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote
Sybase,
> > "We
> > > > are
> > > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full
intentions
> > to
> > > > >> release versions after v 8.0"
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the
21st
> > > > >> Century".
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
> > > > >>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors
> > > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything
> > > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for
> > > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Thanks,
> > > > >> O.J.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
>
> --
> Bill Green[TeamSybase]
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards
> http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/
>
>
> Good Links to know, good places to go:
>
> Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often
> Find things like:
> -- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available
> -- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available
> -- Components, White papers, articles and more
> -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
> -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)
>
> PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com
>
> Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
> Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
>


0
DPC
5/30/2001 9:54:48 PM
I got a developer's license of EA Server for free a while back - it was a
special deal.  With that and a PB enterprise license I was able to teach
myself EAS.  With that knowledge I was able to land an EAS contract job.
Took some effort on my part, but didn't cost me a penny to learn it (well, I
bought Mike Barlotta's book which was worth it).  Check mysybase.com's
e-shop to see if it's still offered for free as a trial.

I have empathy for you with the frustration you feel - I've been there. But
being a "small fry" means you have to work a bit harder to keep up in
learning the technology.

You mention joint development projects that IBM and HP offer.  Is it true
that IBM teams up with 1 man shops, provides free training and lead
generation?  You seem to be asking an awful lot of any company if that's
what you're expecting.


"DPC" <derrick@lotuschan.com> wrote in message
news:zVynpSV6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com...
> Bill,
>
> I am not saying that the desktop or pro is a truly viable product as most
> developers use Powerbuilder Enterprise.  As for the 3K, it may be a drop
in
> a bucket for companies, but for the individual developer/consultant this
is
> not a small thing especially as we want to leverage our experiences and
> monetary investments (this does not include the cost and time  for
training
> etc.).
>
> Yes I agree that java due to its popularity and versatility has caused
> power builder to loose its foothold.  However I also know of many
companies
> that have gone back to VB.  And it would be foolish to expect java to be
the
> end all.
>
> What is happening is the fact that many of us who had signed on to
> Powerbuilder are finding that the market out there is getting smaller for
> us.  Jobs are getting scarce for both contract and permanent jobs.  I
guess
> from all the postings, the small fries like us are trying to know whether
we
> should say Sayonara to PB and bid it adieu.  It is hardly feeding us and
if
> Sybase is not concerned about this then it would be catering to only the
big
> businesses that buys into Sybases's suite of products and it would be
> loosing not only an install base but a resource base also.
>
> How many big businesses are there that want to install portals?  How many
of
> us will be able to gain contracts and jobs for these projects.  What many
of
> us small fries are concerned about, is our survival.   Our concern is that
> the interoperability with other products could be made possible and
> simplified which would help bolster the sales of powerbuilder.  From my
> experience there is a big market out there for intranet software
development
> but it is hard to sell to companies that powerbuilder is the way to go due
> to the lukewarm attitude of Sybase and the fact that it is a shrinking
> market.
>
> When you talk about n-tier and middle-tier, what do you mean by
middle-tier.
> Am I not correct to say that ONLY if a company buys into Jaguar, would the
> "possibility" of leveraging on our PB knowledge be a factor.  Whether
n-tier
> or client server to me they are the same market for a PB developer,as you
> stated we are looking at Enterprise models.
>
> On your n-tier growth, I have not seen much of it in Southern California.
> If I am wrong, I would like to know how many companies here are using the
> full Sybase n-tier development with PB.  How many have jobs open?  Having
> paid a few K for the EAS.  Should I pay 4-5K for the class/passport on the
> EAS?  What is a likelihood of getting a job in Southern California using
> EAS?  I have been trying to use EAS on W2K and have not been successful
for
> the last 8 months.  I stopped until 3.6.1 was release as it was stated
that
> it would be 2000 compliant but when I installed C5 it gave me other
> problems.  If I could get this off the ground maybe I could help sell the
> idea of using "EAS" to one of the former companies I used to contract
with.
>
> Shouldn't Sybase have more partnerships with developers and go into joint
> development to help build the market.  If we had some major systems like a
> HRMS system that is widely used, built with EAS it would sure help the
> market and our confidence in Sybase.  I think it is a worthwhile for
Sybase
> to look into these matters.  I know the they have the financial system
what
> about building other quality systems that could vie against companies like
> Peoplesoft, Oracles HR etc.  We small fries would like to survive and with
> Sybase if possible; however for all you and everyone else have said it is
> not very comforting and small fries like me are still in a quandary as to
> cut our losses at this point or to forge ahead with Sybase.  Is Sybase
> persuing more joint development of projects so that projects will be
> developed using EAS, just like what is done by companies such as IBM, HP,
> etc.
>
>
>
> "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message
> news:3B151A10.DDE76E0B@teamsybase.com...
> > PowerBuilder has *always* been targeted as an Enterprise Development
Tool
> and
> > probably always will. There was a token offering of PB Desktop, and PB
> > Professional has been mildly successful, but the bread-and-butter has
> always
> > been the enterprise. Microsoft has always targeted the individual and
when
> they
> > realized that future profits will not come from individuals buying
> products at
> > $149 per, they shifted their focus to the enterprise also. Maybe you
> havn't
> > noticed, but VB.Net is not targeting the lower end developer. According
to
> > analysts, VB developers are leaving the Microsoft product set in droves.
> (I
> > forget the link to that article, or I'd include it here) because the
leap
> from
> > VB to VB.Net no longer targets the individual.
> >
> > And it would really be a leap to say that IBM targets the individuals
with
> > products like Visual Age. I think everyone is missing the point that
tools
> are
> > no longer anyone's focus, but have been relegated to supporting roles.
If
> > Portals are the "next big thing", and Sybase e-Portal becomes the player
> they
> > believe it will, and ePortal is based on EAServer, what skills do you
> currently
> > own that you can use to contribute to your company/clients future growth
> with
> > their portal? PowerBuilder, that's what. If you work at a client that is
> > developing wireless technology, and they choose to use the iAnywhere
> Wireless
> > Server, what skills do you have today that could be useful in that
market?
> > PowerBuilder. If your company decides that they need to connect their
> employees
> > to their CRM and HR systems (as quite a few major companies are already
> doing),
> > and they need to determine the software infrastructure to connect their
> > employees to their SAP/Peoplesoft/other enterprise systems, do you think
> they
> > might opt to choose a product like NEON who dominates that marketspace?
> And Neon
> > Adapters will connect to those services from EAServer or EAServer
> verticals. You
> > know what product set might come in useful? PowerBuilder.
> >
> > Sure, if you know Java, you have the same advantage, but the point is
that
> > future directions do not obsolete your skillset all the time. And if
this
> were
> > not the right direction, then why would Microsoft and Oracle and IBM be
> building
> > their own products to compete in the same space? (See Microsoft Portal
in
> the
> > latest MSDN shipment).
> >
> > PowerBuilder's loss in marketshare is attributable to three things.
Java,
> a bad
> > product release (7.0 was *not* the best thing that Sybase ever shipped),
> and a
> > slow realization of the changing market. Then again, you'll see the same
> thing
> > if you look at any productset out there like VB, Delphi, and even stuff
> like
> > C++. Time change, people shift. If you think that it won't happen again,
> even
> > with something like Java, then you're fooling yourself. The question is
> whether
> > you recognize it early enough and are willing to adapt (hence C++ will
> never go
> > away, but will continue to see a shrinking market, whereas SmallTalk is
> > virtually off the map). I think Sybase realized it pretty late in the
> game, but
> > my opinion is that they realized it in time, so you may see some
shrinkage
> in
> > the world we're used to (client-server), but you will also see some
growth
> in
> > other areas (n-tier, middle-tier based solutions).
> >
> >
> > regards,
> > Bill
> >
> >
> > DPC wrote:
> >
> > > Roy,
> > >
> > > Are you a Sybase employee?  Is this really the direction Sybase is
going
> in?
> > >
> > > If I do understand you correctly Sybase is currently or has been
> > > concentrating on the E-Portal arena and Powerbuilder is only along for
> the
> > > ride.  Roy just from a general point of view, how many e-portal
programs
> > > will be developed and how many smaller based applications will be
> developed
> > > in the future?  What is the target market and I guess you feel that
> Sybase
> > > can go head long against
> > >
> > > I do not think that it is fair for you to make the comment that:
> "Already
> > > in the application server market and made your choice with a competing
> app
> > > server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to
invest
> > > millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just because
> you
> > > spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license."  For individual developers,
this
> is
> > > not a small sum.  The EA-server license is only for developement also
> and
> > > more has to be spent for the deployement.  Sure we small time
developers
> and
> > > users of PB are worried about our livelihood.  Even for permanent
> employees
> > > if the PB goes then what of us?
> > >
> > > Microsoft in its evolution of VB has never left sight of the people
who
> made
> > > VB what it is today.  One of the reasons for the success of VB is the
> slow
> > > but steady evolution that did not turn its back on the small
developers.
> > > This helped them as it also built a big base of applications and
> resources
> > > (small time developers) out there that could easily be integrated into
> their
> > > enterprise applications without retraining and with little
engineering.
> > >
> > > In comparison if PB is positioned such that it is only for the bigwigs
> and
> > > enterprise systems it will see a demise in the usage at the lower
level
> due
> > > to the price entry problem.  Furthermore the evolution path taken by
> Sybase
> > > for powerbuilder is seeing less usage of this tool in the market thus
> the
> > > expertise base is going to shrink.  Who do you think smaller and mid
> sized
> > > companies growing would select if when upsizing if they have most of
> thier
> > > applications written in VB.
> > >
> > > If this is the official marketing strategy of Sybase, I think it
really
> > > requires a rethink.  Who do you think we small farts would recommend
if
> we
> > > give up PB and go with IBM's visual age of Microsoft's VB?
> > >
> > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com>
wrote
> in
> > > message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to
grow
> > > their
> > > > user base?
> > > >
> > > > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals,
> not
> > > just
> > > > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it
was
> 4-5
> > > > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a
> different
> > > > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as
its
> > > > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere
> > > > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial
sector
> with
> > > > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here?
> > > >
> > > > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer.
> It
> > > > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is
> quite
> > > > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no
longer
> > > > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting
practice
> out
> > > > there.
> > > >
> > > > Already in the application server market and made your choice with a
> > > > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't
expect
> > > Sybase
> > > > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure
> just
> > > > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > <hopethishelps />
> > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > > >
> > > > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> > > > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for
> whom
> > > EAS
> > > > is
> > > > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to
> make
> > > our
> > > > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware
to
> run
> > > it
> > > > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or
maybe
> I
> > > > should
> > > > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is
> excruciating.
> > > > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as
open
> to
> > > > third
> > > > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers.
> > > > >
> > > > > adam simmonds wrote in message
> <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>...
> > > > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out???
> > > > > >
> > > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are
> aware
> > > > that
> > > > > PB is
> > > > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the
> large
> > > > user
> > > > > base
> > > > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to
> jaguar
> > > > and
> > > > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java
> style.
> > > > IMO
> > > > > they
> > > > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web
> > > development
> > > > > and
> > > > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this
work
> as
> > > a
> > > > > waste
> > > > > >of time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the
> more
> > > > > people's (
> > > > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the
product.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >A.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Hello!
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
> > > > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
> > > > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
> > > > > >> discontinued after version 8.0.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
> > > > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
> > > > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
> > > > > >> I came across the following article:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that
> > > > > PowerBuilder
> > > > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote
> Sybase,
> > > "We
> > > > > are
> > > > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full
> intentions
> > > to
> > > > > >> release versions after v 8.0"
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in
the
> 21st
> > > > > >> Century".
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
> > > > > >>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
> > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors
> > > > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything
> > > > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for
> > > > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Thanks,
> > > > > >> O.J.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > --
> > Bill Green[TeamSybase]
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards
> > http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/
> >
> >
> > Good Links to know, good places to go:
> >
> > Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often
> > Find things like:
> > -- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available
> > -- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available
> > -- Components, White papers, articles and more
> > -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
> > -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)
> >
> > PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com
> >
> > Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
> > Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>


0
Daniel
5/30/2001 10:21:51 PM
That's one way of looking at things, but it's a rather narrow way of looking
at things. Kind of like saying that Microsoft Word is no longer the key
player once Excel and PowerPoint joined in and now there is a market for
Microsoft Office, not only Word alone.

>> PB dying, EA Server and PowerJ still being limited mostly to older PB
shops

PB may be dying in your shop. in many other shops, it is very much alive and
kicking.
EAServer limited to older PB shops? You've got to be kidding.... need we
enumerate the following yet again? C/C++/Java/CORBA/PB component support.
PowerJ limited to older PB shops? I'd like to think that you wrote this in
the heat of the moment and not with intent...

--
<hopethishelps />
Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com

"Jacek Furmankiewicz" <jfurmankiewicz@stssystems.com> wrote in message
news:c4QAWlR6AHA.178@forums.sybase.com...
> So...in other words, being bought by Sybase was the worst thing that
> happeneded to PowerBuilder
> after all, wasn't it? Now it's not about PB anymore, it's about Sybase's
> larger goals. I'm glad Sun
> has more of a vision when it comes to Java and doesn't make it run only on
> Sun hardware and with
> only Sun-approved middleware (ditto for Delphi from Borland).
>
> We just had a meeting this week at work about cancelling future support
for
> the Sybase DBMS in our
> product (no one in the market wants it anymore). With Sybase's DBMS
business
> slowly out the door,
> PB dying, EA Server and PowerJ still being limited mostly to older PB
shops
> (I still don't see it being mentioned as often as WebLogic or BEA amongs
> PHBs), I wonder what Sybase's long-term strategy can be.
> -
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jacek Furmankiewicz
> STS Systems - http://www.stssystems.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in
> message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com...
> > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow
> their
> > user base?
> >
> > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, not
> just
> > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was
4-5
> > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a
different
> > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its
> > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere
> > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector
with
> > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here?
> >
> > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. It
> > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is
quite
> > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer
> > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice
out
> > there.
> >
> > Already in the application server market and made your choice with a
> > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect
> Sybase
> > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just
> > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license.
> >
> > --
> > <hopethishelps />
> > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> >
> > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom
> EAS
> > is
> > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make
> our
> > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to
run
> it
> > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I
> > should
> > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating.
> > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to
> > third
> > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers.
> > >
> > > adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>...
> > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out???
> > > >
> > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware
> > that
> > > PB is
> > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large
> > user
> > > base
> > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar.
> > > >
> > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to
jaguar
> > and
> > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java
style.
> > IMO
> > > they
> > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web
> development
> > > and
> > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work
as
> a
> > > waste
> > > >of time.
> > > >
> > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more
> > > people's (
> > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product.
> > > >
> > > >A.
> > > >
> > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hello!
> > > >>
> > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
> > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
> > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
> > > >> discontinued after version 8.0.
> > > >>
> > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
> > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
> > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
> > > >>
> > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
> > > >> I came across the following article:
> > > >>
> > > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder
> > > >>
> > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that
> > > PowerBuilder
> > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase,
> "We
> > > are
> > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions
> to
> > > >> release versions after v 8.0"
> > > >>
> > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the
21st
> > > >> Century".
> > > >>
> > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
> > > >>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
> > > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > > >>
> > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors
> > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything
> > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for
> > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks,
> > > >> O.J.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
Roy
5/30/2001 11:38:36 PM
I am not a Sybase employee, however, this is pretty much the direction
Sybase goes in -- no secrets here, no confidential info disclosed.

That being said, your interpretation is not accurate -- PowerBuilder is not
simply "along for the ride"; it is a product on its own merits, with
features added to it overtime that Support Sybase's future direction. So,
from a Client/Server tool, it has grown (dare I say 'matured'?) into a Web
development tool, with application server deployment capabilities. It just
so happens that this appserver is at the core of three MAJOR Sybase
products...

Target market for portals? Read industry analysis from GIGA, Gartner and
others... it's BIG.

Individual developers -- Sybase does not ditch them. PB is still a great
tool. That being said, how many individual developers work with application
servers? If you can afford WebLogic or WebSphere, you can afford EAServer,
even as an individual developer.

VB? Good luck to you (with .NET being vague as it is)
VisualAge? Welcome to the Java world. Kick ass IDE. But try to create a
decent client/server app in Java..... At the same token, all your Java
components can live in EAServer hapilly ever after...

--
<hopethishelps />
Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com

"DPC" <derrick@lotuschan.com> wrote in message
news:eucUPqR6AHA.178@forums.sybase.com...
> Roy,
>
> Are you a Sybase employee?  Is this really the direction Sybase is going
in?
>
> If I do understand you correctly Sybase is currently or has been
> concentrating on the E-Portal arena and Powerbuilder is only along for the
> ride.  Roy just from a general point of view, how many e-portal programs
> will be developed and how many smaller based applications will be
developed
> in the future?  What is the target market and I guess you feel that Sybase
> can go head long against
>
> I do not think that it is fair for you to make the comment that:  "Already
> in the application server market and made your choice with a competing app
> server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to invest
> millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just because you
> spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license."  For individual developers, this is
> not a small sum.  The EA-server license is only for developement also and
> more has to be spent for the deployement.  Sure we small time developers
and
> users of PB are worried about our livelihood.  Even for permanent
employees
> if the PB goes then what of us?
>
> Microsoft in its evolution of VB has never left sight of the people who
made
> VB what it is today.  One of the reasons for the success of VB is the slow
> but steady evolution that did not turn its back on the small developers.
> This helped them as it also built a big base of applications and resources
> (small time developers) out there that could easily be integrated into
their
> enterprise applications without retraining and with little engineering.
>
> In comparison if PB is positioned such that it is only for the bigwigs and
> enterprise systems it will see a demise in the usage at the lower level
due
> to the price entry problem.  Furthermore the evolution path taken by
Sybase
> for powerbuilder is seeing less usage of this tool in the market thus the
> expertise base is going to shrink.  Who do you think smaller and mid sized
> companies growing would select if when upsizing if they have most of thier
> applications written in VB.
>
> If this is the official marketing strategy of Sybase, I think it really
> requires a rethink.  Who do you think we small farts would recommend if we
> give up PB and go with IBM's visual age of Microsoft's VB?
>
>
>
>
>
> "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in
> message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com...
> > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow
> their
> > user base?
> >
> > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals, not
> just
> > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was
4-5
> > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a
different
> > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its
> > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere
> > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector
with
> > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here?
> >
> > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer. It
> > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is
quite
> > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer
> > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice
out
> > there.
> >
> > Already in the application server market and made your choice with a
> > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect
> Sybase
> > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just
> > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license.
> >
> > --
> > <hopethishelps />
> > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> >
> > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for whom
> EAS
> > is
> > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to make
> our
> > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to
run
> it
> > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe I
> > should
> > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is excruciating.
> > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open to
> > third
> > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers.
> > >
> > > adam simmonds wrote in message <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>...
> > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out???
> > > >
> > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are aware
> > that
> > > PB is
> > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the large
> > user
> > > base
> > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar.
> > > >
> > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to
jaguar
> > and
> > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java
style.
> > IMO
> > > they
> > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web
> development
> > > and
> > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work
as
> a
> > > waste
> > > >of time.
> > > >
> > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the more
> > > people's (
> > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product.
> > > >
> > > >A.
> > > >
> > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hello!
> > > >>
> > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
> > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
> > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
> > > >> discontinued after version 8.0.
> > > >>
> > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
> > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
> > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
> > > >>
> > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
> > > >> I came across the following article:
> > > >>
> > > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder
> > > >>
> > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that
> > > PowerBuilder
> > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote Sybase,
> "We
> > > are
> > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full intentions
> to
> > > >> release versions after v 8.0"
> > > >>
> > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the
21st
> > > >> Century".
> > > >>
> > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
> > > >>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
> > > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > > >>
> > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors
> > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything
> > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for
> > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks,
> > > >> O.J.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
Roy
5/30/2001 11:51:02 PM
Daniel,

I do not know about now, but some 7-10 years back, IBM and HP did co-join
our proposals to companies.  I may be a one man shop but at times I have
been involved in the bid for big projects forming a team of developers from
other companies and independant consultants.  Yes, I come from the mainframe
world and IBM and HP at that time did provide expertise in the proposals and
even free software and classes only to be paid on gaining the contract.
Even when IBM was introducing the Visual Age, I was also given a free
package and had to pay for it only if I developed applications and sold
them.  I had at that time gone with PB 3 as the market was hot for
powerbuilder and had left the IBM world.

Do you think Sybase ameable to such proposals for joint ventures in
developing a HRMS, etc. applications which would help their base of
installed EAS?  How tight are you with them.  It is also good for Sybase to
help in the development of major software so that they can ensure that they
the installed base is up to specifications.  What is worse than a broad
installed based is one that has a lot of badly/failed installed bases.  In
quite a few of my projects I have had to recode and re-structure
applications that were supposedly written by CPBs, therefore I have a dim
view of the certification.  What comes out of these failed/poorly executed
installed bases is a lack of confidence in the software and in big companies
the "black sheep" of an application that has to be lived with as they had
spent large sums of money for them.

How do you think peoplesoft got off the ground so fast.  To build its base
of expertise, free training for the price of working on projects for them
for $45/hr for 6mths-1year was the deal when they were ramping up.   At that
time due to my shortsightedness I stayed with ISI products (the founder
started peoplesoft) as I was raking in the money then as a consultant.  I do
not mind training myself and have done so with powebuilder, little bit of
java, front page etc.  But I have had little success with EAS especially as
I did not at that time have an NT4 machine having it upgraded to W2K server
due to the jobs I was getting requiring W2K server.  I even bought the EAS
library in hardcopy and have been struggling to get EAS to run on my W2K
server and practically every upgrade I had run I had encountered problems
requiring me to re-install from EAS 3.0 --- another problem that I have
encountered.  Is there some mind block for me or am I just dumb.  I have
picked up a book on NT 4.0 and later W2K server and was able to install DNS,
DHCP, IIS, exchange server behind a proxy etc. without going to any class.
I have been alble to learn and run powerbuilder, vb, java etc all on my own.
While on the mainframe I have set up DB2. CICS regions, coded dynamic sql
applications in CSP, etc.  All of which I had learned on my own mainly by
reading the manuals and looking at examples.  But EAS is biting me in the
but/bum.  I am really frustrated with EAS.

Is there a GOOD starter book that you could recommend me for EAS as all the
manuals were a waste of my money.



"Daniel Coppersmith" <daniel@N.0.S.P.A.M_infrontsoftware.com> wrote in
message news:LHjwlpV6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> I got a developer's license of EA Server for free a while back - it was a
> special deal.  With that and a PB enterprise license I was able to teach
> myself EAS.  With that knowledge I was able to land an EAS contract job.
> Took some effort on my part, but didn't cost me a penny to learn it (well,
I
> bought Mike Barlotta's book which was worth it).  Check mysybase.com's
> e-shop to see if it's still offered for free as a trial.
>
> I have empathy for you with the frustration you feel - I've been there.
But
> being a "small fry" means you have to work a bit harder to keep up in
> learning the technology.
>
> You mention joint development projects that IBM and HP offer.  Is it true
> that IBM teams up with 1 man shops, provides free training and lead
> generation?  You seem to be asking an awful lot of any company if that's
> what you're expecting.
>
>
> "DPC" <derrick@lotuschan.com> wrote in message
> news:zVynpSV6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com...
> > Bill,
> >
> > I am not saying that the desktop or pro is a truly viable product as
most
> > developers use Powerbuilder Enterprise.  As for the 3K, it may be a drop
> in
> > a bucket for companies, but for the individual developer/consultant this
> is
> > not a small thing especially as we want to leverage our experiences and
> > monetary investments (this does not include the cost and time  for
> training
> > etc.).
> >
> > Yes I agree that java due to its popularity and versatility has caused
> > power builder to loose its foothold.  However I also know of many
> companies
> > that have gone back to VB.  And it would be foolish to expect java to be
> the
> > end all.
> >
> > What is happening is the fact that many of us who had signed on to
> > Powerbuilder are finding that the market out there is getting smaller
for
> > us.  Jobs are getting scarce for both contract and permanent jobs.  I
> guess
> > from all the postings, the small fries like us are trying to know
whether
> we
> > should say Sayonara to PB and bid it adieu.  It is hardly feeding us and
> if
> > Sybase is not concerned about this then it would be catering to only the
> big
> > businesses that buys into Sybases's suite of products and it would be
> > loosing not only an install base but a resource base also.
> >
> > How many big businesses are there that want to install portals?  How
many
> of
> > us will be able to gain contracts and jobs for these projects.  What
many
> of
> > us small fries are concerned about, is our survival.   Our concern is
that
> > the interoperability with other products could be made possible and
> > simplified which would help bolster the sales of powerbuilder.  From my
> > experience there is a big market out there for intranet software
> development
> > but it is hard to sell to companies that powerbuilder is the way to go
due
> > to the lukewarm attitude of Sybase and the fact that it is a shrinking
> > market.
> >
> > When you talk about n-tier and middle-tier, what do you mean by
> middle-tier.
> > Am I not correct to say that ONLY if a company buys into Jaguar, would
the
> > "possibility" of leveraging on our PB knowledge be a factor.  Whether
> n-tier
> > or client server to me they are the same market for a PB developer,as
you
> > stated we are looking at Enterprise models.
> >
> > On your n-tier growth, I have not seen much of it in Southern
California.
> > If I am wrong, I would like to know how many companies here are using
the
> > full Sybase n-tier development with PB.  How many have jobs open?
Having
> > paid a few K for the EAS.  Should I pay 4-5K for the class/passport on
the
> > EAS?  What is a likelihood of getting a job in Southern California using
> > EAS?  I have been trying to use EAS on W2K and have not been successful
> for
> > the last 8 months.  I stopped until 3.6.1 was release as it was stated
> that
> > it would be 2000 compliant but when I installed C5 it gave me other
> > problems.  If I could get this off the ground maybe I could help sell
the
> > idea of using "EAS" to one of the former companies I used to contract
> with.
> >
> > Shouldn't Sybase have more partnerships with developers and go into
joint
> > development to help build the market.  If we had some major systems like
a
> > HRMS system that is widely used, built with EAS it would sure help the
> > market and our confidence in Sybase.  I think it is a worthwhile for
> Sybase
> > to look into these matters.  I know the they have the financial system
> what
> > about building other quality systems that could vie against companies
like
> > Peoplesoft, Oracles HR etc.  We small fries would like to survive and
with
> > Sybase if possible; however for all you and everyone else have said it
is
> > not very comforting and small fries like me are still in a quandary as
to
> > cut our losses at this point or to forge ahead with Sybase.  Is Sybase
> > persuing more joint development of projects so that projects will be
> > developed using EAS, just like what is done by companies such as IBM,
HP,
> > etc.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message
> > news:3B151A10.DDE76E0B@teamsybase.com...
> > > PowerBuilder has *always* been targeted as an Enterprise Development
> Tool
> > and
> > > probably always will. There was a token offering of PB Desktop, and PB
> > > Professional has been mildly successful, but the bread-and-butter has
> > always
> > > been the enterprise. Microsoft has always targeted the individual and
> when
> > they
> > > realized that future profits will not come from individuals buying
> > products at
> > > $149 per, they shifted their focus to the enterprise also. Maybe you
> > havn't
> > > noticed, but VB.Net is not targeting the lower end developer.
According
> to
> > > analysts, VB developers are leaving the Microsoft product set in
droves.
> > (I
> > > forget the link to that article, or I'd include it here) because the
> leap
> > from
> > > VB to VB.Net no longer targets the individual.
> > >
> > > And it would really be a leap to say that IBM targets the individuals
> with
> > > products like Visual Age. I think everyone is missing the point that
> tools
> > are
> > > no longer anyone's focus, but have been relegated to supporting roles.
> If
> > > Portals are the "next big thing", and Sybase e-Portal becomes the
player
> > they
> > > believe it will, and ePortal is based on EAServer, what skills do you
> > currently
> > > own that you can use to contribute to your company/clients future
growth
> > with
> > > their portal? PowerBuilder, that's what. If you work at a client that
is
> > > developing wireless technology, and they choose to use the iAnywhere
> > Wireless
> > > Server, what skills do you have today that could be useful in that
> market?
> > > PowerBuilder. If your company decides that they need to connect their
> > employees
> > > to their CRM and HR systems (as quite a few major companies are
already
> > doing),
> > > and they need to determine the software infrastructure to connect
their
> > > employees to their SAP/Peoplesoft/other enterprise systems, do you
think
> > they
> > > might opt to choose a product like NEON who dominates that
marketspace?
> > And Neon
> > > Adapters will connect to those services from EAServer or EAServer
> > verticals. You
> > > know what product set might come in useful? PowerBuilder.
> > >
> > > Sure, if you know Java, you have the same advantage, but the point is
> that
> > > future directions do not obsolete your skillset all the time. And if
> this
> > were
> > > not the right direction, then why would Microsoft and Oracle and IBM
be
> > building
> > > their own products to compete in the same space? (See Microsoft Portal
> in
> > the
> > > latest MSDN shipment).
> > >
> > > PowerBuilder's loss in marketshare is attributable to three things.
> Java,
> > a bad
> > > product release (7.0 was *not* the best thing that Sybase ever
shipped),
> > and a
> > > slow realization of the changing market. Then again, you'll see the
same
> > thing
> > > if you look at any productset out there like VB, Delphi, and even
stuff
> > like
> > > C++. Time change, people shift. If you think that it won't happen
again,
> > even
> > > with something like Java, then you're fooling yourself. The question
is
> > whether
> > > you recognize it early enough and are willing to adapt (hence C++ will
> > never go
> > > away, but will continue to see a shrinking market, whereas SmallTalk
is
> > > virtually off the map). I think Sybase realized it pretty late in the
> > game, but
> > > my opinion is that they realized it in time, so you may see some
> shrinkage
> > in
> > > the world we're used to (client-server), but you will also see some
> growth
> > in
> > > other areas (n-tier, middle-tier based solutions).
> > >
> > >
> > > regards,
> > > Bill
> > >
> > >
> > > DPC wrote:
> > >
> > > > Roy,
> > > >
> > > > Are you a Sybase employee?  Is this really the direction Sybase is
> going
> > in?
> > > >
> > > > If I do understand you correctly Sybase is currently or has been
> > > > concentrating on the E-Portal arena and Powerbuilder is only along
for
> > the
> > > > ride.  Roy just from a general point of view, how many e-portal
> programs
> > > > will be developed and how many smaller based applications will be
> > developed
> > > > in the future?  What is the target market and I guess you feel that
> > Sybase
> > > > can go head long against
> > > >
> > > > I do not think that it is fair for you to make the comment that:
> > "Already
> > > > in the application server market and made your choice with a
competing
> > app
> > > > server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to
> invest
> > > > millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just
because
> > you
> > > > spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license."  For individual developers,
> this
> > is
> > > > not a small sum.  The EA-server license is only for developement
also
> > and
> > > > more has to be spent for the deployement.  Sure we small time
> developers
> > and
> > > > users of PB are worried about our livelihood.  Even for permanent
> > employees
> > > > if the PB goes then what of us?
> > > >
> > > > Microsoft in its evolution of VB has never left sight of the people
> who
> > made
> > > > VB what it is today.  One of the reasons for the success of VB is
the
> > slow
> > > > but steady evolution that did not turn its back on the small
> developers.
> > > > This helped them as it also built a big base of applications and
> > resources
> > > > (small time developers) out there that could easily be integrated
into
> > their
> > > > enterprise applications without retraining and with little
> engineering.
> > > >
> > > > In comparison if PB is positioned such that it is only for the
bigwigs
> > and
> > > > enterprise systems it will see a demise in the usage at the lower
> level
> > due
> > > > to the price entry problem.  Furthermore the evolution path taken by
> > Sybase
> > > > for powerbuilder is seeing less usage of this tool in the market
thus
> > the
> > > > expertise base is going to shrink.  Who do you think smaller and mid
> > sized
> > > > companies growing would select if when upsizing if they have most of
> > thier
> > > > applications written in VB.
> > > >
> > > > If this is the official marketing strategy of Sybase, I think it
> really
> > > > requires a rethink.  Who do you think we small farts would recommend
> if
> > we
> > > > give up PB and go with IBM's visual age of Microsoft's VB?
> > > >
> > > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com>
> wrote
> > in
> > > > message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to
> grow
> > > > their
> > > > > user base?
> > > > >
> > > > > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and
goals,
> > not
> > > > just
> > > > > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it
> was
> > 4-5
> > > > > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a
> > different
> > > > > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as
> its
> > > > > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with
iAnywhere
> > > > > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial
> sector
> > with
> > > > > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here?
> > > > >
> > > > > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for
EAServer.
> > It
> > > > > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase
is
> > quite
> > > > > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no
> longer
> > > > > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting
> practice
> > out
> > > > > there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Already in the application server market and made your choice with
a
> > > > > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't
> expect
> > > > Sybase
> > > > > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic
infrastructure
> > just
> > > > > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > <hopethishelps />
> > > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > > > >
> > > > > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> > > > > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for
> > whom
> > > > EAS
> > > > > is
> > > > > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible
to
> > make
> > > > our
> > > > > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware
> to
> > run
> > > > it
> > > > > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or
> maybe
> > I
> > > > > should
> > > > > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is
> > excruciating.
> > > > > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as
> open
> > to
> > > > > third
> > > > > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > adam simmonds wrote in message
> > <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>...
> > > > > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out???
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are
> > aware
> > > > > that
> > > > > > PB is
> > > > > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the
> > large
> > > > > user
> > > > > > base
> > > > > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer
to
> > jaguar
> > > > > and
> > > > > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards
java
> > style.
> > > > > IMO
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web
> > > > development
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this
> work
> > as
> > > > a
> > > > > > waste
> > > > > > >of time.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the
> > more
> > > > > > people's (
> > > > > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the
> product.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >A.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> Hello!
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
> > > > > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
> > > > > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
> > > > > > >> discontinued after version 8.0.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
> > > > > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
> > > > > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
> > > > > > >> I came across the following article:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated
that
> > > > > > PowerBuilder
> > > > > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote
> > Sybase,
> > > > "We
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full
> > intentions
> > > > to
> > > > > > >> release versions after v 8.0"
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in
> the
> > 21st
> > > > > > >> Century".
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
> > > > > > >>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
> > > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase
rumors
> > > > > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's
anything
> > > > > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for
> > > > > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Thanks,
> > > > > > >> O.J.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Bill Green[TeamSybase]
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > > Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards
> > > http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/
> > >
> > >
> > > Good Links to know, good places to go:
> > >
> > > Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often
> > > Find things like:
> > > -- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available
> > > -- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available
> > > -- Components, White papers, articles and more
> > > -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
> > > -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)
> > >
> > > PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com
> > >
> > > Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
> > > Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
DPC
5/31/2001 5:23:11 AM
Sybase is definitely open to this type of cooperation. A few other companies
have already entered such an alliance w/ Sybase, with products such as
application frameworks, distributed reporting apps like WebReport
(http://www.powerobjects.com), etc.

Your local Sybase sales rep. should be your first stop.

--
<hopethishelps />
Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com

"DPC" <derrick@lotuschan.com> wrote in message
news:ci2bMNZ6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com...
> Daniel,
>
> I do not know about now, but some 7-10 years back, IBM and HP did co-join
> our proposals to companies.  I may be a one man shop but at times I have
> been involved in the bid for big projects forming a team of developers
from
> other companies and independant consultants.  Yes, I come from the
mainframe
> world and IBM and HP at that time did provide expertise in the proposals
and
> even free software and classes only to be paid on gaining the contract.
> Even when IBM was introducing the Visual Age, I was also given a free
> package and had to pay for it only if I developed applications and sold
> them.  I had at that time gone with PB 3 as the market was hot for
> powerbuilder and had left the IBM world.
>
> Do you think Sybase ameable to such proposals for joint ventures in
> developing a HRMS, etc. applications which would help their base of
> installed EAS?  How tight are you with them.  It is also good for Sybase
to
> help in the development of major software so that they can ensure that
they
> the installed base is up to specifications.  What is worse than a broad
> installed based is one that has a lot of badly/failed installed bases.  In
> quite a few of my projects I have had to recode and re-structure
> applications that were supposedly written by CPBs, therefore I have a dim
> view of the certification.  What comes out of these failed/poorly executed
> installed bases is a lack of confidence in the software and in big
companies
> the "black sheep" of an application that has to be lived with as they had
> spent large sums of money for them.
>
> How do you think peoplesoft got off the ground so fast.  To build its base
> of expertise, free training for the price of working on projects for them
> for $45/hr for 6mths-1year was the deal when they were ramping up.   At
that
> time due to my shortsightedness I stayed with ISI products (the founder
> started peoplesoft) as I was raking in the money then as a consultant.  I
do
> not mind training myself and have done so with powebuilder, little bit of
> java, front page etc.  But I have had little success with EAS especially
as
> I did not at that time have an NT4 machine having it upgraded to W2K
server
> due to the jobs I was getting requiring W2K server.  I even bought the EAS
> library in hardcopy and have been struggling to get EAS to run on my W2K
> server and practically every upgrade I had run I had encountered problems
> requiring me to re-install from EAS 3.0 --- another problem that I have
> encountered.  Is there some mind block for me or am I just dumb.  I have
> picked up a book on NT 4.0 and later W2K server and was able to install
DNS,
> DHCP, IIS, exchange server behind a proxy etc. without going to any class.
> I have been alble to learn and run powerbuilder, vb, java etc all on my
own.
> While on the mainframe I have set up DB2. CICS regions, coded dynamic sql
> applications in CSP, etc.  All of which I had learned on my own mainly by
> reading the manuals and looking at examples.  But EAS is biting me in the
> but/bum.  I am really frustrated with EAS.
>
> Is there a GOOD starter book that you could recommend me for EAS as all
the
> manuals were a waste of my money.
>
>
>
> "Daniel Coppersmith" <daniel@N.0.S.P.A.M_infrontsoftware.com> wrote in
> message news:LHjwlpV6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> > I got a developer's license of EA Server for free a while back - it was
a
> > special deal.  With that and a PB enterprise license I was able to teach
> > myself EAS.  With that knowledge I was able to land an EAS contract job.
> > Took some effort on my part, but didn't cost me a penny to learn it
(well,
> I
> > bought Mike Barlotta's book which was worth it).  Check mysybase.com's
> > e-shop to see if it's still offered for free as a trial.
> >
> > I have empathy for you with the frustration you feel - I've been there.
> But
> > being a "small fry" means you have to work a bit harder to keep up in
> > learning the technology.
> >
> > You mention joint development projects that IBM and HP offer.  Is it
true
> > that IBM teams up with 1 man shops, provides free training and lead
> > generation?  You seem to be asking an awful lot of any company if that's
> > what you're expecting.
> >
> >
> > "DPC" <derrick@lotuschan.com> wrote in message
> > news:zVynpSV6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com...
> > > Bill,
> > >
> > > I am not saying that the desktop or pro is a truly viable product as
> most
> > > developers use Powerbuilder Enterprise.  As for the 3K, it may be a
drop
> > in
> > > a bucket for companies, but for the individual developer/consultant
this
> > is
> > > not a small thing especially as we want to leverage our experiences
and
> > > monetary investments (this does not include the cost and time  for
> > training
> > > etc.).
> > >
> > > Yes I agree that java due to its popularity and versatility has caused
> > > power builder to loose its foothold.  However I also know of many
> > companies
> > > that have gone back to VB.  And it would be foolish to expect java to
be
> > the
> > > end all.
> > >
> > > What is happening is the fact that many of us who had signed on to
> > > Powerbuilder are finding that the market out there is getting smaller
> for
> > > us.  Jobs are getting scarce for both contract and permanent jobs.  I
> > guess
> > > from all the postings, the small fries like us are trying to know
> whether
> > we
> > > should say Sayonara to PB and bid it adieu.  It is hardly feeding us
and
> > if
> > > Sybase is not concerned about this then it would be catering to only
the
> > big
> > > businesses that buys into Sybases's suite of products and it would be
> > > loosing not only an install base but a resource base also.
> > >
> > > How many big businesses are there that want to install portals?  How
> many
> > of
> > > us will be able to gain contracts and jobs for these projects.  What
> many
> > of
> > > us small fries are concerned about, is our survival.   Our concern is
> that
> > > the interoperability with other products could be made possible and
> > > simplified which would help bolster the sales of powerbuilder.  From
my
> > > experience there is a big market out there for intranet software
> > development
> > > but it is hard to sell to companies that powerbuilder is the way to go
> due
> > > to the lukewarm attitude of Sybase and the fact that it is a shrinking
> > > market.
> > >
> > > When you talk about n-tier and middle-tier, what do you mean by
> > middle-tier.
> > > Am I not correct to say that ONLY if a company buys into Jaguar, would
> the
> > > "possibility" of leveraging on our PB knowledge be a factor.  Whether
> > n-tier
> > > or client server to me they are the same market for a PB developer,as
> you
> > > stated we are looking at Enterprise models.
> > >
> > > On your n-tier growth, I have not seen much of it in Southern
> California.
> > > If I am wrong, I would like to know how many companies here are using
> the
> > > full Sybase n-tier development with PB.  How many have jobs open?
> Having
> > > paid a few K for the EAS.  Should I pay 4-5K for the class/passport on
> the
> > > EAS?  What is a likelihood of getting a job in Southern California
using
> > > EAS?  I have been trying to use EAS on W2K and have not been
successful
> > for
> > > the last 8 months.  I stopped until 3.6.1 was release as it was stated
> > that
> > > it would be 2000 compliant but when I installed C5 it gave me other
> > > problems.  If I could get this off the ground maybe I could help sell
> the
> > > idea of using "EAS" to one of the former companies I used to contract
> > with.
> > >
> > > Shouldn't Sybase have more partnerships with developers and go into
> joint
> > > development to help build the market.  If we had some major systems
like
> a
> > > HRMS system that is widely used, built with EAS it would sure help the
> > > market and our confidence in Sybase.  I think it is a worthwhile for
> > Sybase
> > > to look into these matters.  I know the they have the financial system
> > what
> > > about building other quality systems that could vie against companies
> like
> > > Peoplesoft, Oracles HR etc.  We small fries would like to survive and
> with
> > > Sybase if possible; however for all you and everyone else have said it
> is
> > > not very comforting and small fries like me are still in a quandary as
> to
> > > cut our losses at this point or to forge ahead with Sybase.  Is Sybase
> > > persuing more joint development of projects so that projects will be
> > > developed using EAS, just like what is done by companies such as IBM,
> HP,
> > > etc.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3B151A10.DDE76E0B@teamsybase.com...
> > > > PowerBuilder has *always* been targeted as an Enterprise Development
> > Tool
> > > and
> > > > probably always will. There was a token offering of PB Desktop, and
PB
> > > > Professional has been mildly successful, but the bread-and-butter
has
> > > always
> > > > been the enterprise. Microsoft has always targeted the individual
and
> > when
> > > they
> > > > realized that future profits will not come from individuals buying
> > > products at
> > > > $149 per, they shifted their focus to the enterprise also. Maybe you
> > > havn't
> > > > noticed, but VB.Net is not targeting the lower end developer.
> According
> > to
> > > > analysts, VB developers are leaving the Microsoft product set in
> droves.
> > > (I
> > > > forget the link to that article, or I'd include it here) because the
> > leap
> > > from
> > > > VB to VB.Net no longer targets the individual.
> > > >
> > > > And it would really be a leap to say that IBM targets the
individuals
> > with
> > > > products like Visual Age. I think everyone is missing the point that
> > tools
> > > are
> > > > no longer anyone's focus, but have been relegated to supporting
roles.
> > If
> > > > Portals are the "next big thing", and Sybase e-Portal becomes the
> player
> > > they
> > > > believe it will, and ePortal is based on EAServer, what skills do
you
> > > currently
> > > > own that you can use to contribute to your company/clients future
> growth
> > > with
> > > > their portal? PowerBuilder, that's what. If you work at a client
that
> is
> > > > developing wireless technology, and they choose to use the iAnywhere
> > > Wireless
> > > > Server, what skills do you have today that could be useful in that
> > market?
> > > > PowerBuilder. If your company decides that they need to connect
their
> > > employees
> > > > to their CRM and HR systems (as quite a few major companies are
> already
> > > doing),
> > > > and they need to determine the software infrastructure to connect
> their
> > > > employees to their SAP/Peoplesoft/other enterprise systems, do you
> think
> > > they
> > > > might opt to choose a product like NEON who dominates that
> marketspace?
> > > And Neon
> > > > Adapters will connect to those services from EAServer or EAServer
> > > verticals. You
> > > > know what product set might come in useful? PowerBuilder.
> > > >
> > > > Sure, if you know Java, you have the same advantage, but the point
is
> > that
> > > > future directions do not obsolete your skillset all the time. And if
> > this
> > > were
> > > > not the right direction, then why would Microsoft and Oracle and IBM
> be
> > > building
> > > > their own products to compete in the same space? (See Microsoft
Portal
> > in
> > > the
> > > > latest MSDN shipment).
> > > >
> > > > PowerBuilder's loss in marketshare is attributable to three things.
> > Java,
> > > a bad
> > > > product release (7.0 was *not* the best thing that Sybase ever
> shipped),
> > > and a
> > > > slow realization of the changing market. Then again, you'll see the
> same
> > > thing
> > > > if you look at any productset out there like VB, Delphi, and even
> stuff
> > > like
> > > > C++. Time change, people shift. If you think that it won't happen
> again,
> > > even
> > > > with something like Java, then you're fooling yourself. The question
> is
> > > whether
> > > > you recognize it early enough and are willing to adapt (hence C++
will
> > > never go
> > > > away, but will continue to see a shrinking market, whereas SmallTalk
> is
> > > > virtually off the map). I think Sybase realized it pretty late in
the
> > > game, but
> > > > my opinion is that they realized it in time, so you may see some
> > shrinkage
> > > in
> > > > the world we're used to (client-server), but you will also see some
> > growth
> > > in
> > > > other areas (n-tier, middle-tier based solutions).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > regards,
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > DPC wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Roy,
> > > > >
> > > > > Are you a Sybase employee?  Is this really the direction Sybase is
> > going
> > > in?
> > > > >
> > > > > If I do understand you correctly Sybase is currently or has been
> > > > > concentrating on the E-Portal arena and Powerbuilder is only along
> for
> > > the
> > > > > ride.  Roy just from a general point of view, how many e-portal
> > programs
> > > > > will be developed and how many smaller based applications will be
> > > developed
> > > > > in the future?  What is the target market and I guess you feel
that
> > > Sybase
> > > > > can go head long against
> > > > >
> > > > > I do not think that it is fair for you to make the comment that:
> > > "Already
> > > > > in the application server market and made your choice with a
> competing
> > > app
> > > > > server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to
> > invest
> > > > > millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just
> because
> > > you
> > > > > spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license."  For individual developers,
> > this
> > > is
> > > > > not a small sum.  The EA-server license is only for developement
> also
> > > and
> > > > > more has to be spent for the deployement.  Sure we small time
> > developers
> > > and
> > > > > users of PB are worried about our livelihood.  Even for permanent
> > > employees
> > > > > if the PB goes then what of us?
> > > > >
> > > > > Microsoft in its evolution of VB has never left sight of the
people
> > who
> > > made
> > > > > VB what it is today.  One of the reasons for the success of VB is
> the
> > > slow
> > > > > but steady evolution that did not turn its back on the small
> > developers.
> > > > > This helped them as it also built a big base of applications and
> > > resources
> > > > > (small time developers) out there that could easily be integrated
> into
> > > their
> > > > > enterprise applications without retraining and with little
> > engineering.
> > > > >
> > > > > In comparison if PB is positioned such that it is only for the
> bigwigs
> > > and
> > > > > enterprise systems it will see a demise in the usage at the lower
> > level
> > > due
> > > > > to the price entry problem.  Furthermore the evolution path taken
by
> > > Sybase
> > > > > for powerbuilder is seeing less usage of this tool in the market
> thus
> > > the
> > > > > expertise base is going to shrink.  Who do you think smaller and
mid
> > > sized
> > > > > companies growing would select if when upsizing if they have most
of
> > > thier
> > > > > applications written in VB.
> > > > >
> > > > > If this is the official marketing strategy of Sybase, I think it
> > really
> > > > > requires a rethink.  Who do you think we small farts would
recommend
> > if
> > > we
> > > > > give up PB and go with IBM's visual age of Microsoft's VB?
> > > > >
> > > > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com>
> > wrote
> > > in
> > > > > message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > > > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to
> > grow
> > > > > their
> > > > > > user base?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and
> goals,
> > > not
> > > > > just
> > > > > > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like
it
> > was
> > > 4-5
> > > > > > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a
> > > different
> > > > > > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer
as
> > its
> > > > > > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with
> iAnywhere
> > > > > > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial
> > sector
> > > with
> > > > > > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern
here?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for
> EAServer.
> > > It
> > > > > > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase
> is
> > > quite
> > > > > > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no
> > longer
> > > > > > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting
> > practice
> > > out
> > > > > > there.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Already in the application server market and made your choice
with
> a
> > > > > > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't
> > expect
> > > > > Sybase
> > > > > > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic
> infrastructure
> > > just
> > > > > > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > <hopethishelps />
> > > > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > > > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us
for
> > > whom
> > > > > EAS
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible
> to
> > > make
> > > > > our
> > > > > > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the
hardware
> > to
> > > run
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or
> > maybe
> > > I
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is
> > > excruciating.
> > > > > > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as
> > open
> > > to
> > > > > > third
> > > > > > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > adam simmonds wrote in message
> > > <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>...
> > > > > > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out???
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase
are
> > > aware
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > PB is
> > > > > > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain
the
> > > large
> > > > > > user
> > > > > > > base
> > > > > > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with
Jaguar.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer
> to
> > > jaguar
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards
> java
> > > style.
> > > > > > IMO
> > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web
> > > > > development
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all
this
> > work
> > > as
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > waste
> > > > > > > >of time.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued"
the
> > > more
> > > > > > > people's (
> > > > > > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the
> > product.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >A.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> Hello!
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
> > > > > > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
> > > > > > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
> > > > > > > >> discontinued after version 8.0.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
> > > > > > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
> > > > > > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
> > > > > > > >> I came across the following article:
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated
> that
> > > > > > > PowerBuilder
> > > > > > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote
> > > Sybase,
> > > > > "We
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full
> > > intentions
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > >> release versions after v 8.0"
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder
in
> > the
> > > 21st
> > > > > > > >> Century".
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
> > > > > > > >>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
> > > > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase
> rumors
> > > > > > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's
> anything
> > > > > > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future
for
> > > > > > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Thanks,
> > > > > > > >> O.J.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Bill Green[TeamSybase]
> > > > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > > > Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards
> > > > http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Good Links to know, good places to go:
> > > >
> > > > Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often
> > > > Find things like:
> > > > -- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available
> > > > -- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available
> > > > -- Components, White papers, articles and more
> > > > -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
> > > > -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)
> > > >
> > > > PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com
> > > >
> > > > Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
> > > > Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
> > > > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
Roy
5/31/2001 7:05:02 AM
I would recommend Mike Barlotta's book "Jaguar Development with PB 7" and
the follow up written with Jason Weiss "Taming Jaguar" available at
manning.com.  I don't know if that would help you through your Win 2K issues
though.

"DPC" <derrick@lotuschan.com> wrote in message
news:ci2bMNZ6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com...
> Daniel,
>
> I do not know about now, but some 7-10 years back, IBM and HP did co-join
> our proposals to companies.  I may be a one man shop but at times I have
> been involved in the bid for big projects forming a team of developers
from
> other companies and independant consultants.  Yes, I come from the
mainframe
> world and IBM and HP at that time did provide expertise in the proposals
and
> even free software and classes only to be paid on gaining the contract.
> Even when IBM was introducing the Visual Age, I was also given a free
> package and had to pay for it only if I developed applications and sold
> them.  I had at that time gone with PB 3 as the market was hot for
> powerbuilder and had left the IBM world.
>
> Do you think Sybase ameable to such proposals for joint ventures in
> developing a HRMS, etc. applications which would help their base of
> installed EAS?  How tight are you with them.  It is also good for Sybase
to
> help in the development of major software so that they can ensure that
they
> the installed base is up to specifications.  What is worse than a broad
> installed based is one that has a lot of badly/failed installed bases.  In
> quite a few of my projects I have had to recode and re-structure
> applications that were supposedly written by CPBs, therefore I have a dim
> view of the certification.  What comes out of these failed/poorly executed
> installed bases is a lack of confidence in the software and in big
companies
> the "black sheep" of an application that has to be lived with as they had
> spent large sums of money for them.
>
> How do you think peoplesoft got off the ground so fast.  To build its base
> of expertise, free training for the price of working on projects for them
> for $45/hr for 6mths-1year was the deal when they were ramping up.   At
that
> time due to my shortsightedness I stayed with ISI products (the founder
> started peoplesoft) as I was raking in the money then as a consultant.  I
do
> not mind training myself and have done so with powebuilder, little bit of
> java, front page etc.  But I have had little success with EAS especially
as
> I did not at that time have an NT4 machine having it upgraded to W2K
server
> due to the jobs I was getting requiring W2K server.  I even bought the EAS
> library in hardcopy and have been struggling to get EAS to run on my W2K
> server and practically every upgrade I had run I had encountered problems
> requiring me to re-install from EAS 3.0 --- another problem that I have
> encountered.  Is there some mind block for me or am I just dumb.  I have
> picked up a book on NT 4.0 and later W2K server and was able to install
DNS,
> DHCP, IIS, exchange server behind a proxy etc. without going to any class.
> I have been alble to learn and run powerbuilder, vb, java etc all on my
own.
> While on the mainframe I have set up DB2. CICS regions, coded dynamic sql
> applications in CSP, etc.  All of which I had learned on my own mainly by
> reading the manuals and looking at examples.  But EAS is biting me in the
> but/bum.  I am really frustrated with EAS.
>
> Is there a GOOD starter book that you could recommend me for EAS as all
the
> manuals were a waste of my money.
>
>
>
> "Daniel Coppersmith" <daniel@N.0.S.P.A.M_infrontsoftware.com> wrote in
> message news:LHjwlpV6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> > I got a developer's license of EA Server for free a while back - it was
a
> > special deal.  With that and a PB enterprise license I was able to teach
> > myself EAS.  With that knowledge I was able to land an EAS contract job.
> > Took some effort on my part, but didn't cost me a penny to learn it
(well,
> I
> > bought Mike Barlotta's book which was worth it).  Check mysybase.com's
> > e-shop to see if it's still offered for free as a trial.
> >
> > I have empathy for you with the frustration you feel - I've been there.
> But
> > being a "small fry" means you have to work a bit harder to keep up in
> > learning the technology.
> >
> > You mention joint development projects that IBM and HP offer.  Is it
true
> > that IBM teams up with 1 man shops, provides free training and lead
> > generation?  You seem to be asking an awful lot of any company if that's
> > what you're expecting.
> >
> >
> > "DPC" <derrick@lotuschan.com> wrote in message
> > news:zVynpSV6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com...
> > > Bill,
> > >
> > > I am not saying that the desktop or pro is a truly viable product as
> most
> > > developers use Powerbuilder Enterprise.  As for the 3K, it may be a
drop
> > in
> > > a bucket for companies, but for the individual developer/consultant
this
> > is
> > > not a small thing especially as we want to leverage our experiences
and
> > > monetary investments (this does not include the cost and time  for
> > training
> > > etc.).
> > >
> > > Yes I agree that java due to its popularity and versatility has caused
> > > power builder to loose its foothold.  However I also know of many
> > companies
> > > that have gone back to VB.  And it would be foolish to expect java to
be
> > the
> > > end all.
> > >
> > > What is happening is the fact that many of us who had signed on to
> > > Powerbuilder are finding that the market out there is getting smaller
> for
> > > us.  Jobs are getting scarce for both contract and permanent jobs.  I
> > guess
> > > from all the postings, the small fries like us are trying to know
> whether
> > we
> > > should say Sayonara to PB and bid it adieu.  It is hardly feeding us
and
> > if
> > > Sybase is not concerned about this then it would be catering to only
the
> > big
> > > businesses that buys into Sybases's suite of products and it would be
> > > loosing not only an install base but a resource base also.
> > >
> > > How many big businesses are there that want to install portals?  How
> many
> > of
> > > us will be able to gain contracts and jobs for these projects.  What
> many
> > of
> > > us small fries are concerned about, is our survival.   Our concern is
> that
> > > the interoperability with other products could be made possible and
> > > simplified which would help bolster the sales of powerbuilder.  From
my
> > > experience there is a big market out there for intranet software
> > development
> > > but it is hard to sell to companies that powerbuilder is the way to go
> due
> > > to the lukewarm attitude of Sybase and the fact that it is a shrinking
> > > market.
> > >
> > > When you talk about n-tier and middle-tier, what do you mean by
> > middle-tier.
> > > Am I not correct to say that ONLY if a company buys into Jaguar, would
> the
> > > "possibility" of leveraging on our PB knowledge be a factor.  Whether
> > n-tier
> > > or client server to me they are the same market for a PB developer,as
> you
> > > stated we are looking at Enterprise models.
> > >
> > > On your n-tier growth, I have not seen much of it in Southern
> California.
> > > If I am wrong, I would like to know how many companies here are using
> the
> > > full Sybase n-tier development with PB.  How many have jobs open?
> Having
> > > paid a few K for the EAS.  Should I pay 4-5K for the class/passport on
> the
> > > EAS?  What is a likelihood of getting a job in Southern California
using
> > > EAS?  I have been trying to use EAS on W2K and have not been
successful
> > for
> > > the last 8 months.  I stopped until 3.6.1 was release as it was stated
> > that
> > > it would be 2000 compliant but when I installed C5 it gave me other
> > > problems.  If I could get this off the ground maybe I could help sell
> the
> > > idea of using "EAS" to one of the former companies I used to contract
> > with.
> > >
> > > Shouldn't Sybase have more partnerships with developers and go into
> joint
> > > development to help build the market.  If we had some major systems
like
> a
> > > HRMS system that is widely used, built with EAS it would sure help the
> > > market and our confidence in Sybase.  I think it is a worthwhile for
> > Sybase
> > > to look into these matters.  I know the they have the financial system
> > what
> > > about building other quality systems that could vie against companies
> like
> > > Peoplesoft, Oracles HR etc.  We small fries would like to survive and
> with
> > > Sybase if possible; however for all you and everyone else have said it
> is
> > > not very comforting and small fries like me are still in a quandary as
> to
> > > cut our losses at this point or to forge ahead with Sybase.  Is Sybase
> > > persuing more joint development of projects so that projects will be
> > > developed using EAS, just like what is done by companies such as IBM,
> HP,
> > > etc.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3B151A10.DDE76E0B@teamsybase.com...
> > > > PowerBuilder has *always* been targeted as an Enterprise Development
> > Tool
> > > and
> > > > probably always will. There was a token offering of PB Desktop, and
PB
> > > > Professional has been mildly successful, but the bread-and-butter
has
> > > always
> > > > been the enterprise. Microsoft has always targeted the individual
and
> > when
> > > they
> > > > realized that future profits will not come from individuals buying
> > > products at
> > > > $149 per, they shifted their focus to the enterprise also. Maybe you
> > > havn't
> > > > noticed, but VB.Net is not targeting the lower end developer.
> According
> > to
> > > > analysts, VB developers are leaving the Microsoft product set in
> droves.
> > > (I
> > > > forget the link to that article, or I'd include it here) because the
> > leap
> > > from
> > > > VB to VB.Net no longer targets the individual.
> > > >
> > > > And it would really be a leap to say that IBM targets the
individuals
> > with
> > > > products like Visual Age. I think everyone is missing the point that
> > tools
> > > are
> > > > no longer anyone's focus, but have been relegated to supporting
roles.
> > If
> > > > Portals are the "next big thing", and Sybase e-Portal becomes the
> player
> > > they
> > > > believe it will, and ePortal is based on EAServer, what skills do
you
> > > currently
> > > > own that you can use to contribute to your company/clients future
> growth
> > > with
> > > > their portal? PowerBuilder, that's what. If you work at a client
that
> is
> > > > developing wireless technology, and they choose to use the iAnywhere
> > > Wireless
> > > > Server, what skills do you have today that could be useful in that
> > market?
> > > > PowerBuilder. If your company decides that they need to connect
their
> > > employees
> > > > to their CRM and HR systems (as quite a few major companies are
> already
> > > doing),
> > > > and they need to determine the software infrastructure to connect
> their
> > > > employees to their SAP/Peoplesoft/other enterprise systems, do you
> think
> > > they
> > > > might opt to choose a product like NEON who dominates that
> marketspace?
> > > And Neon
> > > > Adapters will connect to those services from EAServer or EAServer
> > > verticals. You
> > > > know what product set might come in useful? PowerBuilder.
> > > >
> > > > Sure, if you know Java, you have the same advantage, but the point
is
> > that
> > > > future directions do not obsolete your skillset all the time. And if
> > this
> > > were
> > > > not the right direction, then why would Microsoft and Oracle and IBM
> be
> > > building
> > > > their own products to compete in the same space? (See Microsoft
Portal
> > in
> > > the
> > > > latest MSDN shipment).
> > > >
> > > > PowerBuilder's loss in marketshare is attributable to three things.
> > Java,
> > > a bad
> > > > product release (7.0 was *not* the best thing that Sybase ever
> shipped),
> > > and a
> > > > slow realization of the changing market. Then again, you'll see the
> same
> > > thing
> > > > if you look at any productset out there like VB, Delphi, and even
> stuff
> > > like
> > > > C++. Time change, people shift. If you think that it won't happen
> again,
> > > even
> > > > with something like Java, then you're fooling yourself. The question
> is
> > > whether
> > > > you recognize it early enough and are willing to adapt (hence C++
will
> > > never go
> > > > away, but will continue to see a shrinking market, whereas SmallTalk
> is
> > > > virtually off the map). I think Sybase realized it pretty late in
the
> > > game, but
> > > > my opinion is that they realized it in time, so you may see some
> > shrinkage
> > > in
> > > > the world we're used to (client-server), but you will also see some
> > growth
> > > in
> > > > other areas (n-tier, middle-tier based solutions).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > regards,
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > DPC wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Roy,
> > > > >
> > > > > Are you a Sybase employee?  Is this really the direction Sybase is
> > going
> > > in?
> > > > >
> > > > > If I do understand you correctly Sybase is currently or has been
> > > > > concentrating on the E-Portal arena and Powerbuilder is only along
> for
> > > the
> > > > > ride.  Roy just from a general point of view, how many e-portal
> > programs
> > > > > will be developed and how many smaller based applications will be
> > > developed
> > > > > in the future?  What is the target market and I guess you feel
that
> > > Sybase
> > > > > can go head long against
> > > > >
> > > > > I do not think that it is fair for you to make the comment that:
> > > "Already
> > > > > in the application server market and made your choice with a
> competing
> > > app
> > > > > server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to
> > invest
> > > > > millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just
> because
> > > you
> > > > > spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license."  For individual developers,
> > this
> > > is
> > > > > not a small sum.  The EA-server license is only for developement
> also
> > > and
> > > > > more has to be spent for the deployement.  Sure we small time
> > developers
> > > and
> > > > > users of PB are worried about our livelihood.  Even for permanent
> > > employees
> > > > > if the PB goes then what of us?
> > > > >
> > > > > Microsoft in its evolution of VB has never left sight of the
people
> > who
> > > made
> > > > > VB what it is today.  One of the reasons for the success of VB is
> the
> > > slow
> > > > > but steady evolution that did not turn its back on the small
> > developers.
> > > > > This helped them as it also built a big base of applications and
> > > resources
> > > > > (small time developers) out there that could easily be integrated
> into
> > > their
> > > > > enterprise applications without retraining and with little
> > engineering.
> > > > >
> > > > > In comparison if PB is positioned such that it is only for the
> bigwigs
> > > and
> > > > > enterprise systems it will see a demise in the usage at the lower
> > level
> > > due
> > > > > to the price entry problem.  Furthermore the evolution path taken
by
> > > Sybase
> > > > > for powerbuilder is seeing less usage of this tool in the market
> thus
> > > the
> > > > > expertise base is going to shrink.  Who do you think smaller and
mid
> > > sized
> > > > > companies growing would select if when upsizing if they have most
of
> > > thier
> > > > > applications written in VB.
> > > > >
> > > > > If this is the official marketing strategy of Sybase, I think it
> > really
> > > > > requires a rethink.  Who do you think we small farts would
recommend
> > if
> > > we
> > > > > give up PB and go with IBM's visual age of Microsoft's VB?
> > > > >
> > > > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com>
> > wrote
> > > in
> > > > > message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > > > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to
> > grow
> > > > > their
> > > > > > user base?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and
> goals,
> > > not
> > > > > just
> > > > > > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like
it
> > was
> > > 4-5
> > > > > > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a
> > > different
> > > > > > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer
as
> > its
> > > > > > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with
> iAnywhere
> > > > > > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial
> > sector
> > > with
> > > > > > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern
here?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for
> EAServer.
> > > It
> > > > > > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase
> is
> > > quite
> > > > > > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no
> > longer
> > > > > > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting
> > practice
> > > out
> > > > > > there.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Already in the application server market and made your choice
with
> a
> > > > > > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't
> > expect
> > > > > Sybase
> > > > > > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic
> infrastructure
> > > just
> > > > > > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > <hopethishelps />
> > > > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > > > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us
for
> > > whom
> > > > > EAS
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible
> to
> > > make
> > > > > our
> > > > > > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the
hardware
> > to
> > > run
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or
> > maybe
> > > I
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is
> > > excruciating.
> > > > > > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as
> > open
> > > to
> > > > > > third
> > > > > > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > adam simmonds wrote in message
> > > <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>...
> > > > > > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out???
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase
are
> > > aware
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > PB is
> > > > > > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain
the
> > > large
> > > > > > user
> > > > > > > base
> > > > > > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with
Jaguar.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer
> to
> > > jaguar
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards
> java
> > > style.
> > > > > > IMO
> > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web
> > > > > development
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all
this
> > work
> > > as
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > waste
> > > > > > > >of time.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued"
the
> > > more
> > > > > > > people's (
> > > > > > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the
> > product.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >A.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> Hello!
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
> > > > > > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
> > > > > > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
> > > > > > > >> discontinued after version 8.0.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
> > > > > > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
> > > > > > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
> > > > > > > >> I came across the following article:
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated
> that
> > > > > > > PowerBuilder
> > > > > > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote
> > > Sybase,
> > > > > "We
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full
> > > intentions
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > >> release versions after v 8.0"
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder
in
> > the
> > > 21st
> > > > > > > >> Century".
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
> > > > > > > >>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
> > > > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase
> rumors
> > > > > > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's
> anything
> > > > > > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future
for
> > > > > > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Thanks,
> > > > > > > >> O.J.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Bill Green[TeamSybase]
> > > > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > > > Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards
> > > > http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Good Links to know, good places to go:
> > > >
> > > > Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often
> > > > Find things like:
> > > > -- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available
> > > > -- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available
> > > > -- Components, White papers, articles and more
> > > > -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
> > > > -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)
> > > >
> > > > PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com
> > > >
> > > > Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
> > > > Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
> > > > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
Daniel
5/31/2001 11:43:10 AM
Industry Analysts, (the ones that the bigger companies tend to follow) seem to
be indicating that VB is losing it's developer following in droves. I'm not in
that market anymore, so I can only base my opinions on what I read and what I
hear.

The job market is getting smaller. That's no secret. A part of that is becuase
the Java market is growing. A part of that is also because that marketspace is
mature. That's also part of the natural evolution. It reaches a certain size (in
shrinking) which becomes the minimal sustainable market and then it either
remains there (if the product is not that good or not being marketed correctly),
or it begins to grow again. That's part of the cycle. By virtue of the number of
newcomers to these forums, I'm judging that PB is still selling. I also see
familiar names moving from the PB forums to the EAServer and PowerJ forums, so I
see that the experienced PB developers are expanding their horizons.

Portals are big business. As Roy already said, just check out the GIGA and
Gartner predictions on that market. Portals encompass the whole web-presence and
provide both external and internal views to the business. eCommerce Servers were
popular for a while but companies are realizing that they need much more than
that and the ePortal business is growing.

You're correct in saying that you can leverage your PB skills only if the target
app-server is Jaguar (although I guess you could count the companies developing
PB components to deploy to MTS or other COM based servers). I've also found that
if you learn a little bit about Java, you actually make your PowerBuilder skills
more marketable. I've had no end of queries about utilizing PowerBuilder and
Java Servlets in the same app-server, something EAServer does pretty well.

Sybase also has no problem partnering with small companies. My own company is a
2-man shop. We occasionally hire sub-contractors on projects, but for the most
part, it's just the two of us. Sybase partners with us without worrying about
our size. You really should talk to first your sales rep, but the purpose is to
talk to the Sybase Alliance group to find out how you can work together. Sybase
is not going out there to actively seek partnerships (something I think they
should do, but then again, I don't own the company) with small consulting shops,
but I've not known them to turn anyone away. They know how important partners
are, and in fact I happen to know that they are deliberately trying to shift
more sales/services type of work out to partners. It not only generates interest
and revenue, but reduces cost as well. If you ever have an opportunity for a
project and need additional help, you can contact Sybase Professional Services.
If they have people available, they will help you get it done.


I don't know about the Southern Cal market. I do not work that market (excet for
some isolated projects), but what I would do is talk to Sybase and see how you
can work together for your mutual benefit. Sybase wants to grow, believe me, and
they will do almost anything to promote that growth. But don't take my word for
it. Call them and find out for yourself. It may cost you a day to talk to them,
but you will then have a better feel for how things may work out for you in your
area.


regards,
Bill Green


DPC wrote:

> Bill,
>
> I am not saying that the desktop or pro is a truly viable product as most
> developers use Powerbuilder Enterprise.  As for the 3K, it may be a drop in
> a bucket for companies, but for the individual developer/consultant this is
> not a small thing especially as we want to leverage our experiences and
> monetary investments (this does not include the cost and time  for training
> etc.).
>
> Yes I agree that java due to its popularity and versatility has caused
> power builder to loose its foothold.  However I also know of many companies
> that have gone back to VB.  And it would be foolish to expect java to be the
> end all.
>
> What is happening is the fact that many of us who had signed on to
> Powerbuilder are finding that the market out there is getting smaller for
> us.  Jobs are getting scarce for both contract and permanent jobs.  I guess
> from all the postings, the small fries like us are trying to know whether we
> should say Sayonara to PB and bid it adieu.  It is hardly feeding us and if
> Sybase is not concerned about this then it would be catering to only the big
> businesses that buys into Sybases's suite of products and it would be
> loosing not only an install base but a resource base also.
>
> How many big businesses are there that want to install portals?  How many of
> us will be able to gain contracts and jobs for these projects.  What many of
> us small fries are concerned about, is our survival.   Our concern is that
> the interoperability with other products could be made possible and
> simplified which would help bolster the sales of powerbuilder.  From my
> experience there is a big market out there for intranet software development
> but it is hard to sell to companies that powerbuilder is the way to go due
> to the lukewarm attitude of Sybase and the fact that it is a shrinking
> market.
>
> When you talk about n-tier and middle-tier, what do you mean by middle-tier.
> Am I not correct to say that ONLY if a company buys into Jaguar, would the
> "possibility" of leveraging on our PB knowledge be a factor.  Whether n-tier
> or client server to me they are the same market for a PB developer,as you
> stated we are looking at Enterprise models.
>
> On your n-tier growth, I have not seen much of it in Southern California.
> If I am wrong, I would like to know how many companies here are using the
> full Sybase n-tier development with PB.  How many have jobs open?  Having
> paid a few K for the EAS.  Should I pay 4-5K for the class/passport on the
> EAS?  What is a likelihood of getting a job in Southern California using
> EAS?  I have been trying to use EAS on W2K and have not been successful for
> the last 8 months.  I stopped until 3.6.1 was release as it was stated that
> it would be 2000 compliant but when I installed C5 it gave me other
> problems.  If I could get this off the ground maybe I could help sell the
> idea of using "EAS" to one of the former companies I used to contract with.
>
> Shouldn't Sybase have more partnerships with developers and go into joint
> development to help build the market.  If we had some major systems like a
> HRMS system that is widely used, built with EAS it would sure help the
> market and our confidence in Sybase.  I think it is a worthwhile for Sybase
> to look into these matters.  I know the they have the financial system what
> about building other quality systems that could vie against companies like
> Peoplesoft, Oracles HR etc.  We small fries would like to survive and with
> Sybase if possible; however for all you and everyone else have said it is
> not very comforting and small fries like me are still in a quandary as to
> cut our losses at this point or to forge ahead with Sybase.  Is Sybase
> persuing more joint development of projects so that projects will be
> developed using EAS, just like what is done by companies such as IBM, HP,
> etc.
>
> "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message
> news:3B151A10.DDE76E0B@teamsybase.com...
> > PowerBuilder has *always* been targeted as an Enterprise Development Tool
> and
> > probably always will. There was a token offering of PB Desktop, and PB
> > Professional has been mildly successful, but the bread-and-butter has
> always
> > been the enterprise. Microsoft has always targeted the individual and when
> they
> > realized that future profits will not come from individuals buying
> products at
> > $149 per, they shifted their focus to the enterprise also. Maybe you
> havn't
> > noticed, but VB.Net is not targeting the lower end developer. According to
> > analysts, VB developers are leaving the Microsoft product set in droves.
> (I
> > forget the link to that article, or I'd include it here) because the leap
> from
> > VB to VB.Net no longer targets the individual.
> >
> > And it would really be a leap to say that IBM targets the individuals with
> > products like Visual Age. I think everyone is missing the point that tools
> are
> > no longer anyone's focus, but have been relegated to supporting roles. If
> > Portals are the "next big thing", and Sybase e-Portal becomes the player
> they
> > believe it will, and ePortal is based on EAServer, what skills do you
> currently
> > own that you can use to contribute to your company/clients future growth
> with
> > their portal? PowerBuilder, that's what. If you work at a client that is
> > developing wireless technology, and they choose to use the iAnywhere
> Wireless
> > Server, what skills do you have today that could be useful in that market?
> > PowerBuilder. If your company decides that they need to connect their
> employees
> > to their CRM and HR systems (as quite a few major companies are already
> doing),
> > and they need to determine the software infrastructure to connect their
> > employees to their SAP/Peoplesoft/other enterprise systems, do you think
> they
> > might opt to choose a product like NEON who dominates that marketspace?
> And Neon
> > Adapters will connect to those services from EAServer or EAServer
> verticals. You
> > know what product set might come in useful? PowerBuilder.
> >
> > Sure, if you know Java, you have the same advantage, but the point is that
> > future directions do not obsolete your skillset all the time. And if this
> were
> > not the right direction, then why would Microsoft and Oracle and IBM be
> building
> > their own products to compete in the same space? (See Microsoft Portal in
> the
> > latest MSDN shipment).
> >
> > PowerBuilder's loss in marketshare is attributable to three things. Java,
> a bad
> > product release (7.0 was *not* the best thing that Sybase ever shipped),
> and a
> > slow realization of the changing market. Then again, you'll see the same
> thing
> > if you look at any productset out there like VB, Delphi, and even stuff
> like
> > C++. Time change, people shift. If you think that it won't happen again,
> even
> > with something like Java, then you're fooling yourself. The question is
> whether
> > you recognize it early enough and are willing to adapt (hence C++ will
> never go
> > away, but will continue to see a shrinking market, whereas SmallTalk is
> > virtually off the map). I think Sybase realized it pretty late in the
> game, but
> > my opinion is that they realized it in time, so you may see some shrinkage
> in
> > the world we're used to (client-server), but you will also see some growth
> in
> > other areas (n-tier, middle-tier based solutions).
> >
> >
> > regards,
> > Bill
> >
> >
> > DPC wrote:
> >
> > > Roy,
> > >
> > > Are you a Sybase employee?  Is this really the direction Sybase is going
> in?
> > >
> > > If I do understand you correctly Sybase is currently or has been
> > > concentrating on the E-Portal arena and Powerbuilder is only along for
> the
> > > ride.  Roy just from a general point of view, how many e-portal programs
> > > will be developed and how many smaller based applications will be
> developed
> > > in the future?  What is the target market and I guess you feel that
> Sybase
> > > can go head long against
> > >
> > > I do not think that it is fair for you to make the comment that:
> "Already
> > > in the application server market and made your choice with a competing
> app
> > > server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to invest
> > > millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just because
> you
> > > spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license."  For individual developers, this
> is
> > > not a small sum.  The EA-server license is only for developement also
> and
> > > more has to be spent for the deployement.  Sure we small time developers
> and
> > > users of PB are worried about our livelihood.  Even for permanent
> employees
> > > if the PB goes then what of us?
> > >
> > > Microsoft in its evolution of VB has never left sight of the people who
> made
> > > VB what it is today.  One of the reasons for the success of VB is the
> slow
> > > but steady evolution that did not turn its back on the small developers.
> > > This helped them as it also built a big base of applications and
> resources
> > > (small time developers) out there that could easily be integrated into
> their
> > > enterprise applications without retraining and with little engineering.
> > >
> > > In comparison if PB is positioned such that it is only for the bigwigs
> and
> > > enterprise systems it will see a demise in the usage at the lower level
> due
> > > to the price entry problem.  Furthermore the evolution path taken by
> Sybase
> > > for powerbuilder is seeing less usage of this tool in the market thus
> the
> > > expertise base is going to shrink.  Who do you think smaller and mid
> sized
> > > companies growing would select if when upsizing if they have most of
> thier
> > > applications written in VB.
> > >
> > > If this is the official marketing strategy of Sybase, I think it really
> > > requires a rethink.  Who do you think we small farts would recommend if
> we
> > > give up PB and go with IBM's visual age of Microsoft's VB?
> > >
> > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote
> in
> > > message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow
> > > their
> > > > user base?
> > > >
> > > > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals,
> not
> > > just
> > > > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was
> 4-5
> > > > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a
> different
> > > > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its
> > > > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere
> > > > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector
> with
> > > > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here?
> > > >
> > > > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer.
> It
> > > > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is
> quite
> > > > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer
> > > > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice
> out
> > > > there.
> > > >
> > > > Already in the application server market and made your choice with a
> > > > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect
> > > Sybase
> > > > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure
> just
> > > > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > <hopethishelps />
> > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > > >
> > > > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
> > > > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for
> whom
> > > EAS
> > > > is
> > > > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to
> make
> > > our
> > > > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to
> run
> > > it
> > > > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe
> I
> > > > should
> > > > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is
> excruciating.
> > > > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open
> to
> > > > third
> > > > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers.
> > > > >
> > > > > adam simmonds wrote in message
> <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>...
> > > > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out???
> > > > > >
> > > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are
> aware
> > > > that
> > > > > PB is
> > > > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the
> large
> > > > user
> > > > > base
> > > > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to
> jaguar
> > > > and
> > > > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java
> style.
> > > > IMO
> > > > > they
> > > > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web
> > > development
> > > > > and
> > > > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work
> as
> > > a
> > > > > waste
> > > > > >of time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the
> more
> > > > > people's (
> > > > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >A.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Hello!
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
> > > > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
> > > > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
> > > > > >> discontinued after version 8.0.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
> > > > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
> > > > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
> > > > > >> I came across the following article:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that
> > > > > PowerBuilder
> > > > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote
> Sybase,
> > > "We
> > > > > are
> > > > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full
> intentions
> > > to
> > > > > >> release versions after v 8.0"
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the
> 21st
> > > > > >> Century".
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
> > > > > >>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
> > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors
> > > > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything
> > > > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for
> > > > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Thanks,
> > > > > >> O.J.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > --
> > Bill Green[TeamSybase]
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards
> > http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/
> >
> >
> > Good Links to know, good places to go:
> >
> > Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often
> > Find things like:
> > -- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available
> > -- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available
> > -- Components, White papers, articles and more
> > -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
> > -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)
> >
> > PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com
> >
> > Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
> > Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >

--
Bill Green[TeamSybase]
-----------------------------------------------------------
Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards
http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/


Good Links to know, good places to go:

Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often
Find things like:
-- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available
-- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available
-- Components, White papers, articles and more
-- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
-- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)

PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com

Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


0
Bill
5/31/2001 1:41:50 PM
Can't comment on things in the US but down here in Australia I reckon
PowerBuilder is pretty much bleeding to death. All this hype about EAServer is
not catching on here. In the past six months seen only one EAserver job in
Sydney. PB programmers were once kings now in Melbourne (3.5 million people)
there are about 12 PB positions in the offering (this might include same
positions advertised by different agencies).

IMO diversification is the key..and JAVA seems to be the way to go.

Good Luck to All PowerBuilders.




On Thu, 31 May 2001 09:41:50 -0400,
 in powersoft.public.powerbuilder.general
Bill Green[TeamSybase] <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote: 
>Industry Analysts, (the ones that the bigger companies tend to follow) seem to
>be indicating that VB is losing it's developer following in droves. I'm not in
>that market anymore, so I can only base my opinions on what I read and what I
>hear.
>
>The job market is getting smaller. That's no secret. A part of that is becuase
>the Java market is growing. A part of that is also because that marketspace is
>mature. That's also part of the natural evolution. It reaches a certain size
(in
>shrinking) which becomes the minimal sustainable market and then it either
>remains there (if the product is not that good or not being marketed
correctly),
>or it begins to grow again. That's part of the cycle. By virtue of the number
of
>newcomers to these forums, I'm judging that PB is still selling. I also see
>familiar names moving from the PB forums to the EAServer and PowerJ forums, so
I
>see that the experienced PB developers are expanding their horizons.
>
>Portals are big business. As Roy already said, just check out the GIGA and
>Gartner predictions on that market. Portals encompass the whole web-presence
and
>provide both external and internal views to the business. eCommerce Servers
were
>popular for a while but companies are realizing that they need much more than
>that and the ePortal business is growing.
>
>You're correct in saying that you can leverage your PB skills only if the
target
>app-server is Jaguar (although I guess you could count the companies developing
>PB components to deploy to MTS or other COM based servers). I've also found
that
>if you learn a little bit about Java, you actually make your PowerBuilder
skills
>more marketable. I've had no end of queries about utilizing PowerBuilder and
>Java Servlets in the same app-server, something EAServer does pretty well.
>
>Sybase also has no problem partnering with small companies. My own company is a
>2-man shop. We occasionally hire sub-contractors on projects, but for the most
>part, it's just the two of us. Sybase partners with us without worrying about
>our size. You really should talk to first your sales rep, but the purpose is to
>talk to the Sybase Alliance group to find out how you can work together. Sybase
>is not going out there to actively seek partnerships (something I think they
>should do, but then again, I don't own the company) with small consulting
shops,
>but I've not known them to turn anyone away. They know how important partners
>are, and in fact I happen to know that they are deliberately trying to shift
>more sales/services type of work out to partners. It not only generates
interest
>and revenue, but reduces cost as well. If you ever have an opportunity for a
>project and need additional help, you can contact Sybase Professional Services.
>If they have people available, they will help you get it done.
>
>
>I don't know about the Southern Cal market. I do not work that market (excet
for
>some isolated projects), but what I would do is talk to Sybase and see how you
>can work together for your mutual benefit. Sybase wants to grow, believe me,
and
>they will do almost anything to promote that growth. But don't take my word for
>it. Call them and find out for yourself. It may cost you a day to talk to them,
>but you will then have a better feel for how things may work out for you in
your
>area.
>
>
>regards,
>Bill Green
>
>
>DPC wrote:
>
>> Bill,
>>
>> I am not saying that the desktop or pro is a truly viable product as most
>> developers use Powerbuilder Enterprise.  As for the 3K, it may be a drop in
>> a bucket for companies, but for the individual developer/consultant this is
>> not a small thing especially as we want to leverage our experiences and
>> monetary investments (this does not include the cost and time  for training
>> etc.).
>>
>> Yes I agree that java due to its popularity and versatility has caused
>> power builder to loose its foothold.  However I also know of many companies
>> that have gone back to VB.  And it would be foolish to expect java to be the
>> end all.
>>
>> What is happening is the fact that many of us who had signed on to
>> Powerbuilder are finding that the market out there is getting smaller for
>> us.  Jobs are getting scarce for both contract and permanent jobs.  I guess
>> from all the postings, the small fries like us are trying to know whether we
>> should say Sayonara to PB and bid it adieu.  It is hardly feeding us and if
>> Sybase is not concerned about this then it would be catering to only the big
>> businesses that buys into Sybases's suite of products and it would be
>> loosing not only an install base but a resource base also.
>>
>> How many big businesses are there that want to install portals?  How many of
>> us will be able to gain contracts and jobs for these projects.  What many of
>> us small fries are concerned about, is our survival.   Our concern is that
>> the interoperability with other products could be made possible and
>> simplified which would help bolster the sales of powerbuilder.  From my
>> experience there is a big market out there for intranet software development
>> but it is hard to sell to companies that powerbuilder is the way to go due
>> to the lukewarm attitude of Sybase and the fact that it is a shrinking
>> market.
>>
>> When you talk about n-tier and middle-tier, what do you mean by middle-tier.
>> Am I not correct to say that ONLY if a company buys into Jaguar, would the
>> "possibility" of leveraging on our PB knowledge be a factor.  Whether n-tier
>> or client server to me they are the same market for a PB developer,as you
>> stated we are looking at Enterprise models.
>>
>> On your n-tier growth, I have not seen much of it in Southern California.
>> If I am wrong, I would like to know how many companies here are using the
>> full Sybase n-tier development with PB.  How many have jobs open?  Having
>> paid a few K for the EAS.  Should I pay 4-5K for the class/passport on the
>> EAS?  What is a likelihood of getting a job in Southern California using
>> EAS?  I have been trying to use EAS on W2K and have not been successful for
>> the last 8 months.  I stopped until 3.6.1 was release as it was stated that
>> it would be 2000 compliant but when I installed C5 it gave me other
>> problems.  If I could get this off the ground maybe I could help sell the
>> idea of using "EAS" to one of the former companies I used to contract with.
>>
>> Shouldn't Sybase have more partnerships with developers and go into joint
>> development to help build the market.  If we had some major systems like a
>> HRMS system that is widely used, built with EAS it would sure help the
>> market and our confidence in Sybase.  I think it is a worthwhile for Sybase
>> to look into these matters.  I know the they have the financial system what
>> about building other quality systems that could vie against companies like
>> Peoplesoft, Oracles HR etc.  We small fries would like to survive and with
>> Sybase if possible; however for all you and everyone else have said it is
>> not very comforting and small fries like me are still in a quandary as to
>> cut our losses at this point or to forge ahead with Sybase.  Is Sybase
>> persuing more joint development of projects so that projects will be
>> developed using EAS, just like what is done by companies such as IBM, HP,
>> etc.
>>
>> "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message
>> news:3B151A10.DDE76E0B@teamsybase.com...
>> > PowerBuilder has *always* been targeted as an Enterprise Development Tool
>> and
>> > probably always will. There was a token offering of PB Desktop, and PB
>> > Professional has been mildly successful, but the bread-and-butter has
>> always
>> > been the enterprise. Microsoft has always targeted the individual and when
>> they
>> > realized that future profits will not come from individuals buying
>> products at
>> > $149 per, they shifted their focus to the enterprise also. Maybe you
>> havn't
>> > noticed, but VB.Net is not targeting the lower end developer. According to
>> > analysts, VB developers are leaving the Microsoft product set in droves.
>> (I
>> > forget the link to that article, or I'd include it here) because the leap
>> from
>> > VB to VB.Net no longer targets the individual.
>> >
>> > And it would really be a leap to say that IBM targets the individuals with
>> > products like Visual Age. I think everyone is missing the point that tools
>> are
>> > no longer anyone's focus, but have been relegated to supporting roles. If
>> > Portals are the "next big thing", and Sybase e-Portal becomes the player
>> they
>> > believe it will, and ePortal is based on EAServer, what skills do you
>> currently
>> > own that you can use to contribute to your company/clients future growth
>> with
>> > their portal? PowerBuilder, that's what. If you work at a client that is
>> > developing wireless technology, and they choose to use the iAnywhere
>> Wireless
>> > Server, what skills do you have today that could be useful in that market?
>> > PowerBuilder. If your company decides that they need to connect their
>> employees
>> > to their CRM and HR systems (as quite a few major companies are already
>> doing),
>> > and they need to determine the software infrastructure to connect their
>> > employees to their SAP/Peoplesoft/other enterprise systems, do you think
>> they
>> > might opt to choose a product like NEON who dominates that marketspace?
>> And Neon
>> > Adapters will connect to those services from EAServer or EAServer
>> verticals. You
>> > know what product set might come in useful? PowerBuilder.
>> >
>> > Sure, if you know Java, you have the same advantage, but the point is that
>> > future directions do not obsolete your skillset all the time. And if this
>> were
>> > not the right direction, then why would Microsoft and Oracle and IBM be
>> building
>> > their own products to compete in the same space? (See Microsoft Portal in
>> the
>> > latest MSDN shipment).
>> >
>> > PowerBuilder's loss in marketshare is attributable to three things. Java,
>> a bad
>> > product release (7.0 was *not* the best thing that Sybase ever shipped),
>> and a
>> > slow realization of the changing market. Then again, you'll see the same
>> thing
>> > if you look at any productset out there like VB, Delphi, and even stuff
>> like
>> > C++. Time change, people shift. If you think that it won't happen again,
>> even
>> > with something like Java, then you're fooling yourself. The question is
>> whether
>> > you recognize it early enough and are willing to adapt (hence C++ will
>> never go
>> > away, but will continue to see a shrinking market, whereas SmallTalk is
>> > virtually off the map). I think Sybase realized it pretty late in the
>> game, but
>> > my opinion is that they realized it in time, so you may see some shrinkage
>> in
>> > the world we're used to (client-server), but you will also see some growth
>> in
>> > other areas (n-tier, middle-tier based solutions).
>> >
>> >
>> > regards,
>> > Bill
>> >
>> >
>> > DPC wrote:
>> >
>> > > Roy,
>> > >
>> > > Are you a Sybase employee?  Is this really the direction Sybase is going
>> in?
>> > >
>> > > If I do understand you correctly Sybase is currently or has been
>> > > concentrating on the E-Portal arena and Powerbuilder is only along for
>> the
>> > > ride.  Roy just from a general point of view, how many e-portal programs
>> > > will be developed and how many smaller based applications will be
>> developed
>> > > in the future?  What is the target market and I guess you feel that
>> Sybase
>> > > can go head long against
>> > >
>> > > I do not think that it is fair for you to make the comment that:
>> "Already
>> > > in the application server market and made your choice with a competing
>> app
>> > > server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect Sybase to invest
>> > > millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure just because
>> you
>> > > spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license."  For individual developers, this
>> is
>> > > not a small sum.  The EA-server license is only for developement also
>> and
>> > > more has to be spent for the deployement.  Sure we small time developers
>> and
>> > > users of PB are worried about our livelihood.  Even for permanent
>> employees
>> > > if the PB goes then what of us?
>> > >
>> > > Microsoft in its evolution of VB has never left sight of the people who
>> made
>> > > VB what it is today.  One of the reasons for the success of VB is the
>> slow
>> > > but steady evolution that did not turn its back on the small developers.
>> > > This helped them as it also built a big base of applications and
>> resources
>> > > (small time developers) out there that could easily be integrated into
>> their
>> > > enterprise applications without retraining and with little engineering.
>> > >
>> > > In comparison if PB is positioned such that it is only for the bigwigs
>> and
>> > > enterprise systems it will see a demise in the usage at the lower level
>> due
>> > > to the price entry problem.  Furthermore the evolution path taken by
>> Sybase
>> > > for powerbuilder is seeing less usage of this tool in the market thus
>> the
>> > > expertise base is going to shrink.  Who do you think smaller and mid
>> sized
>> > > companies growing would select if when upsizing if they have most of
>> thier
>> > > applications written in VB.
>> > >
>> > > If this is the official marketing strategy of Sybase, I think it really
>> > > requires a rethink.  Who do you think we small farts would recommend if
>> we
>> > > give up PB and go with IBM's visual age of Microsoft's VB?
>> > >
>> > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote
>> in
>> > > message news:h6ie2DK6AHA.191@forums.sybase.com...
>> > > > Do you see IBM or WebLogic offering PB compatibility in order to grow
>> > > their
>> > > > user base?
>> > > >
>> > > > You have to understand that Sybase has many growth plans and goals,
>> not
>> > > just
>> > > > one. PowerBuilder is no longer the major revenue generator like it was
>> 4-5
>> > > > years ago. PowerBuilder is now the "best supporting actor" in a
>> different
>> > > > movie; Sybase is moving into the E-Portal arena, with EAServer as its
>> > > > engine. Sybase is also moving into the wireless arena with iAnywhere
>> > > > Wireless Studio (powered by EAServer) as well as the financial sector
>> with
>> > > > Financial Fusion (also powered by EAServer) -- see a pattern here?
>> > > >
>> > > > PowerBuilder is positioned as a great development tool for EAServer.
>> It
>> > > > helps grow the EAServer market, not the other way around. Sybase is
>> quite
>> > > > content with the size of its PowerBuilder customer base. It no longer
>> > > > concentrates on pushing PB into every IT shop and consulting practice
>> out
>> > > > there.
>> > > >
>> > > > Already in the application server market and made your choice with a
>> > > > competing app server? Time to move your apps along, too. Don't expect
>> > > Sybase
>> > > > to invest millions in developing app-server-agnostic infrastructure
>> just
>> > > > because you spent $3K on a PB Enterprise license.
>> > > >
>> > > > --
>> > > > <hopethishelps />
>> > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
>> > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
>> > > >
>> > > > "Jerry Siegel" <jerrys@data-sci.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
>> > > > news:zq34gCH6AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
>> > > > > The problem with that approach is that it leaves those of us for
>> whom
>> > > EAS
>> > > > is
>> > > > > not an option out in the cold. We don't feel it it is possible to
>> make
>> > > our
>> > > > > customers buy an additional piece of middleware and the hardware to
>> run
>> > > it
>> > > > > on. Trying to make PB work with another third tier server [or maybe
>> I
>> > > > should
>> > > > > say 2.5 tier, it's Oracle DBMS/app server/web server] is
>> excruciating.
>> > > > > IMO,Sybase is not going to grow the user base without being as open
>> to
>> > > > third
>> > > > > party application servers as they are to DBMS servers.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > adam simmonds wrote in message
>> <3B13B294.99002C72@mail.usyd.edu.au>...
>> > > > > >How many times can this issue be fleshed out???
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >AFAIK from the EAS arena PB9 is on the design board. Sybase are
>> aware
>> > > > that
>> > > > > PB is
>> > > > > >their flagship product and its important that they maintain the
>> large
>> > > > user
>> > > > > base
>> > > > > >and hopefully push them towards n-tier development with Jaguar.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >The IDE for 8 has undergone major changes to integrate closer to
>> jaguar
>> > > > and
>> > > > > >features such as exception handling are moving more towards java
>> style.
>> > > > IMO
>> > > > > they
>> > > > > >are trying to make PB a product that people will use for web
>> > > development
>> > > > > and
>> > > > > >n-tier. If it was to be discontinued then I would see all this work
>> as
>> > > a
>> > > > > waste
>> > > > > >of time.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >The more everyone harps on "is PB going to be discontinued" the
>> more
>> > > > > people's (
>> > > > > >management?) confidence is dented and this does damge the product.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >A.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >"O.J. Newman" wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >> Hello!
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> Earlier this year, I came across an article in one of the
>> > > > > >> weekly industry newspapers that stated that Sybase
>> > > > > >> was telling major customers that PowerBuilder will be
>> > > > > >> discontinued after version 8.0.
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> (I can't remember which newspaper had the story and
>> > > > > >> I can't seem locate it by doing a Google search.
>> > > > > >> But I'm not making this up - I really did see it.)
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> At the PowerBuilder Information Site ( www.justpbinfo.com )
>> > > > > >> I came across the following article:
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------
>> > > > > >> The Future of PowerBuilder
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> Is there life after PowerBuilder 8? Rumors have circulated that
>> > > > > PowerBuilder
>> > > > > >> is the last release. Sybase says this is not true. To quote
>> Sybase,
>> > > "We
>> > > > > are
>> > > > > >> in the planning stages for future releases and have full
>> intentions
>> > > to
>> > > > > >> release versions after v 8.0"
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> Read the below document provided by Sybase, "PowerBuilder in the
>> 21st
>> > > > > >> Century".
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> Download Article: PB21stCentury.pdf
>> > > > > >>  http://www.justpbinfo.com/other/PB21stCentury.pdf )
>> > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> I realize that there have been many PowerBuilder/Sybase rumors
>> > > > > >> over the years, but I'm curious as to whether there's anything
>> > > > > >> to this most recent one or if Sybase plans a long future for
>> > > > > >> PowerBuilder as part of the ESD.
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> Thanks,
>> > > > > >> O.J.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Bill Green[TeamSybase]
>> > -----------------------------------------------------------
>> > Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards
>> > http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/
>> >
>> >
>> > Good Links to know, good places to go:
>> >
>> > Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often
>> > Find things like:
>> > -- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available
>> > -- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available
>> > -- Components, White papers, articles and more
>> > -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
>> > -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)
>> >
>> > PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com
>> >
>> > Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
>> > Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
>> > -----------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>
>--
>Bill Green[TeamSybase]
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards
>http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/
>
>
>Good Links to know, good places to go:
>
>Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often
>Find things like:
>-- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available
>-- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available
>-- Components, White papers, articles and more
>-- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
>-- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)
>
>PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com
>
>Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
>Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>

---== Posted via the PFCGuide Web Newsreader ==---
http://www.pfcguide.com/_newsgroups/group_list.asp
0
SHS
5/31/2001 2:37:31 PM
"Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message
news:3B151569.37F83D76@teamsybase.com...
> I think you may be going overboard just a little here Jacek. I don't think
> anyone is going to contest that PB has lost it's stranglehold on the
> client-server industry that it had a few years ago. However, Sybase's DBMS
> slowly out the door??? Sybase has not lost marketshare in the DBMS world.
It's

Pls, Bill, you have to be kidding, According to the latest surver Oracle had
35%, DB2  had
30%, MS SQL had 20% or so and Sybase and Informix had 3% each (THREE
percent).

Sure, it's easy to increase your db licenses when you have only 3%, but it's
still only a tiny
fraction of the market. For heaven's sake, MySQL probably has as much (just
no one counts it, as it is free).

In our sector (entrprise retail software) Sybase is about as dead as can be
for a DBMS platform.
Not that that is a good thing (I like Sybase a lot more than Oracle for
mid-sized customers,
less headaches and more stable), but the fact is that there's only room for
2-3 top tier DBMS vendors
in the market...and Sybase isn't one of them.

As for PB, well...I love it as a language (minus the PB 7 fiasco), but it
gives my career less and less choices every month. Not all of us are
consultants that have a chance to learn a new tool every 6 months. I'd hate
to be the
"new COBOL" programmer 10 years from now (since that seems to be PB's
ultimate destiny, a classic old language
used for business app in the 1990s and not much more after that).

Just learning Java now and I amazed by the depth of its class libraries
(XML, network, sockets, XSLT, object database APIs, long-termp XML
serialization of persistent objects, Log4J, integration into all major
webservers, tons of free high-quality tools, tons of stable IDEs (NetBeans
really rocks,especially for the price) the list goes on and on...). I wish
PB would offer me the same depth or at least allowed to integrate with it
(or even with the upcoming .Net libraries which will probably have as much
depth).  Sure, it sucks for GUI, but on the server-side it's pretty powerful
and above all open (I'm looking at throwing together a C++ Qt-based
front-end to integrate with Java server logic and communicate with each
other via SOAP most likely).

And I'm sorry to say, for the so-called classic two-tier development, PB's
GUI is getting more and more dated. Users (and marketing) are expecting more
and more fancy user interfaces (Outlook panels, docking windows, shaded
buttons, oval buttons, etc.)...and PB at best has home-made hacks to
simulate some of them (Roy's Outlook panel is great, but besides that all PB
apps look like they did back in 1995).

I saw some fancy touchscreen apps recently and there is just no way I could
implement some of the GUIs in PB (alpha-transparency, blending, shading,
oval objects, animations, you name it). Those are business apps too.

Jacek


0
Jacek
5/31/2001 4:51:31 PM
Sybase was at 3% 3 years ago, so I reiterate, they have not lost marketshare.
Similarly, in the financial world (Wall Street), Sybase still owns over 65% of
the market. And like I said before, I know of two clients that are switching
from Oracle to Sybase. 3 years ago, it was easy to find the other way around.

I will not argue the fact that Java has more to offer. I believe that is true,
just like C++ had much the same to offer 5 years ago. Do you think that 10 years
from now Java will still be the top dog?

Actually, my wish is that Sybase would simply drop PowerScript and use Java as
the base instead. That would provide more growth than anything they're doing
today with the product.

regards,
Bill

Jacek Furmankiewicz wrote:

> "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message
> news:3B151569.37F83D76@teamsybase.com...
> > I think you may be going overboard just a little here Jacek. I don't think
> > anyone is going to contest that PB has lost it's stranglehold on the
> > client-server industry that it had a few years ago. However, Sybase's DBMS
> > slowly out the door??? Sybase has not lost marketshare in the DBMS world.
> It's
>
> Pls, Bill, you have to be kidding, According to the latest surver Oracle had
> 35%, DB2  had
> 30%, MS SQL had 20% or so and Sybase and Informix had 3% each (THREE
> percent).
>
> Sure, it's easy to increase your db licenses when you have only 3%, but it's
> still only a tiny
> fraction of the market. For heaven's sake, MySQL probably has as much (just
> no one counts it, as it is free).
>
> In our sector (entrprise retail software) Sybase is about as dead as can be
> for a DBMS platform.
> Not that that is a good thing (I like Sybase a lot more than Oracle for
> mid-sized customers,
> less headaches and more stable), but the fact is that there's only room for
> 2-3 top tier DBMS vendors
> in the market...and Sybase isn't one of them.
>
> As for PB, well...I love it as a language (minus the PB 7 fiasco), but it
> gives my career less and less choices every month. Not all of us are
> consultants that have a chance to learn a new tool every 6 months. I'd hate
> to be the
> "new COBOL" programmer 10 years from now (since that seems to be PB's
> ultimate destiny, a classic old language
> used for business app in the 1990s and not much more after that).
>
> Just learning Java now and I amazed by the depth of its class libraries
> (XML, network, sockets, XSLT, object database APIs, long-termp XML
> serialization of persistent objects, Log4J, integration into all major
> webservers, tons of free high-quality tools, tons of stable IDEs (NetBeans
> really rocks,especially for the price) the list goes on and on...). I wish
> PB would offer me the same depth or at least allowed to integrate with it
> (or even with the upcoming .Net libraries which will probably have as much
> depth).  Sure, it sucks for GUI, but on the server-side it's pretty powerful
> and above all open (I'm looking at throwing together a C++ Qt-based
> front-end to integrate with Java server logic and communicate with each
> other via SOAP most likely).
>
> And I'm sorry to say, for the so-called classic two-tier development, PB's
> GUI is getting more and more dated. Users (and marketing) are expecting more
> and more fancy user interfaces (Outlook panels, docking windows, shaded
> buttons, oval buttons, etc.)...and PB at best has home-made hacks to
> simulate some of them (Roy's Outlook panel is great, but besides that all PB
> apps look like they did back in 1995).
>
> I saw some fancy touchscreen apps recently and there is just no way I could
> implement some of the GUIs in PB (alpha-transparency, blending, shading,
> oval objects, animations, you name it). Those are business apps too.
>
> Jacek

--
Bill Green[TeamSybase]
-----------------------------------------------------------
Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards
http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/


Good Links to know, good places to go:

Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often
Find things like:
-- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available
-- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available
-- Components, White papers, articles and more
-- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
-- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)

PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com

Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


0
Bill
5/31/2001 6:51:53 PM
You might get your wish :-)

I recall taking a survey done by Sybase for PB9 and half of the questions
seemed to be related to either integrating
with Java or generating bytecode from PB. Interesting, let's wait and see.

Cheers,
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jacek Furmankiewicz
STS Systems - http://www.stssystems.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message
> Actually, my wish is that Sybase would simply drop PowerScript and use
Java as
> the base instead. That would provide more growth than anything they're
doing
> today with the product.



0
Jacek
6/1/2001 12:28:54 PM
I was just wondering if anyone else noticed that now that Sybase has
'bought' NEON and reorganized their divisions, PowerBuilder is all by itself
practically in the Enterprise Business Group, while PowerJ, PowerDesigner,
EAServer, etc are grouped with the NEON products in the eBusiness group.
Does this mean that PowerBuilder will eventually become Application Server
neutral?  Or, has it been put out to pasture to die a slow and lonely death?

Jacek Furmankiewicz <jfurmankiewicz@stssystems.com> wrote in message
news:5DPWalp6AHA.256@forums.sybase.com...
> You might get your wish :-)
>
> I recall taking a survey done by Sybase for PB9 and half of the questions
> seemed to be related to either integrating
> with Java or generating bytecode from PB. Interesting, let's wait and see.
>
> Cheers,
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jacek Furmankiewicz
> STS Systems - http://www.stssystems.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message
> > Actually, my wish is that Sybase would simply drop PowerScript and use
> Java as
> > the base instead. That would provide more growth than anything they're
> doing
> > today with the product.
>
>
>


0
Phil
6/8/2001 2:20:53 AM
Reply:

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Hi, I am migrating a PFC based Powerbuilder 8 App. to PowerBuilder 11, I am getting errors like illegal data type. for a NVO n_cst_platformwin32 i am getting a syntax error, its not allowing me to open that object. Requesting your help thanks & regards Vimal Sanghvi If you're object (or any related object) failed to migrate successfully, you won't be able to edit it in a regular painter; you'll have to Edit Source to modify it. If you're migrating, a glance through my Migration Guide (see below) may help. The methodology there would allow you to identify...

Upgrade to PowerBuilder 9 or PowerBuilder 10?
Hi, Our company is going to upgrade PowerBuilder. Currently we are using version 7, and we are going to upgrade either to version 9 or 10. Does anyone have any recommendations if we should go for version 9 or 10? What is the current release of version 10, and is it stable or is there a lot of bugs? Best regards, Ronald Ommundsen e-mail: ronald.ommundsen@gard.no Ron; If you have any hope of running the applications in the future on XP, W2003 or soon to be W2006 (LongHorn) you will have to jump over to UniCode - ie PB10. So personally, I would recommend starting with P...

The future of powerbuilder #3
Hi, all I do like powerbuilder, especially the DataWindow, but it seems powerbuilder developer is not popular recent days. I'd like to know what is the future of PowerBuilder? Thanks "Taoge" <luxiaotao@hotmail.com> wrote: > I do like powerbuilder, especially the DataWindow, but it seems > powerbuilder developer is not popular recent days. I'd like to know what > is the future of PowerBuilder? http://www.techno-kitten.com/Changes_to_PowerBuilder/powerbuilder_s_future/powerbuilder_s_future.html Dmitri. Dmitri, do You like the ...

Powerbuilder
Hi all, I am probably not suppose to be asking this question here but I have been unable to get into the beta news groups and we are getting a little frazzled. Can anyone give us an example of a Jaquar NVO component using a connection pool. We are trying to sync a datastore on easerver with a datawindow and cannot establish a connection through the pool on easerver. We are able to execute a method to insert a row and sync. If that means anything. Thanks Den We are using PB7.0 and EAServer3.0 betas on NT Since the beta's well over and the product is about to be shipped, ...

Future of IT and place for PowerBuilder???
Hi all: As you know, we've gone through many changes in IT: 1. Mainframe Computing 2. Client Server 3. Distributed (3-Tier) 4. Distributed (N-Tier/Web) Given the fact that there's a possibility of great improvements in network speeds and improved deployment methods, which of the following in your opinion would become popular? 1. Thin-client, multi-tier, non-browser based technology become popular (and hence boost PB market???) 2. Thin-client, multi-tier, browser-based web-technology (featuring rich-client look) (and consequently PowerBuilder would evolve into a web...

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