The future of Powerbuilder

I am looking for opinions and viewpoints.  I think
Powerbuilder has 2 distinct and quite different markets. 
The small to medium sized software market and corporate IT
market.  In the software market where results are easy to
measure on the bottom line I think PB is doing just fine. 
The productivity, efficiency and swift development process
suites that market just fine.  Just keep your customers
happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in PB based software
packages considering the total lack of documentation.  That
speaks volume on the capabilities of PB if you just get into
it.

On the IT market where results are measured quite
differently I think PB is having a much more difficult time.
 Its more just keep management happy.  And you know
management wants to be 'forward' thinking.  You dont want to
look like your standing still so there is pressure to go to
the latest technology whether or not it is needed or if its
the correct solution.  I have recieve so many emails similar
to the following one which prompted this message.:

"...Unfortunately we'll probably abandon Powerbuilder in
favour of VB.NET...

....most developpers I know here never heard about PB or else
there knwoledge about it is really outdated.

I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an exstensive
training) and I still like PB more (much more productive in
about everything, far less code to get the same result..."

So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore going
forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the beginning of a
new period of growth rather than decline.

Again I would like to hear the opinions of others out there.
 Are/were you energized about the future of PB at Techwave
or not?
0
dw
8/6/2003 5:39:04 PM
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Has anything come out of techwave regarding the .NET features for
Powerbuilder?  I'm surprised at how little news has been posted here so far!

- Jim

<dw-extreme> wrote in message news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com...
> I am looking for opinions and viewpoints.  I think
> Powerbuilder has 2 distinct and quite different markets.
> The small to medium sized software market and corporate IT
> market.  In the software market where results are easy to
> measure on the bottom line I think PB is doing just fine.
> The productivity, efficiency and swift development process
> suites that market just fine.  Just keep your customers
> happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in PB based software
> packages considering the total lack of documentation.  That
> speaks volume on the capabilities of PB if you just get into
> it.
>
> On the IT market where results are measured quite
> differently I think PB is having a much more difficult time.
>  Its more just keep management happy.  And you know
> management wants to be 'forward' thinking.  You dont want to
> look like your standing still so there is pressure to go to
> the latest technology whether or not it is needed or if its
> the correct solution.  I have recieve so many emails similar
> to the following one which prompted this message.:
>
> "...Unfortunately we'll probably abandon Powerbuilder in
> favour of VB.NET...
>
> ...most developpers I know here never heard about PB or else
> there knwoledge about it is really outdated.
>
> I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an exstensive
> training) and I still like PB more (much more productive in
> about everything, far less code to get the same result..."
>
> So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore going
> forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the beginning of a
> new period of growth rather than decline.
>
> Again I would like to hear the opinions of others out there.
>  Are/were you energized about the future of PB at Techwave
> or not?


0
PowrSite
8/6/2003 6:10:35 PM
I am very concern too about the future of Powerbuilder...

Since I have learned PB, 5 years ago, Sybase (and PB) helped me earn money
and have jobs ...
But, if I am looking forward ... In five years ... where is going to be
Sybase and PB ?
In my two cents opinion,  I see a better future for .NET...  Why, because I
see many cie and gvt that want and will give up PB for .NET.
Why ?  I don't know !
Is it because the Microsft � marketer � are doing a better job than those of
Sybase ?
Is it because the cost for a company to buy licenses for EAServer and PB is
very expensive ?  Maybe !
This is a fact, I am sure about it.


<dw-extreme> a �crit dans le message news:
3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com...
> I am looking for opinions and viewpoints.  I think
> Powerbuilder has 2 distinct and quite different markets.
> The small to medium sized software market and corporate IT
> market.  In the software market where results are easy to
> measure on the bottom line I think PB is doing just fine.
> The productivity, efficiency and swift development process
> suites that market just fine.  Just keep your customers
> happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in PB based software
> packages considering the total lack of documentation.  That
> speaks volume on the capabilities of PB if you just get into
> it.
>
> On the IT market where results are measured quite
> differently I think PB is having a much more difficult time.
>  Its more just keep management happy.  And you know
> management wants to be 'forward' thinking.  You dont want to
> look like your standing still so there is pressure to go to
> the latest technology whether or not it is needed or if its
> the correct solution.  I have recieve so many emails similar
> to the following one which prompted this message.:
>
> "...Unfortunately we'll probably abandon Powerbuilder in
> favour of VB.NET...
>
> ...most developpers I know here never heard about PB or else
> there knwoledge about it is really outdated.
>
> I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an exstensive
> training) and I still like PB more (much more productive in
> about everything, far less code to get the same result..."
>
> So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore going
> forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the beginning of a
> new period of growth rather than decline.
>
> Again I would like to hear the opinions of others out there.
>  Are/were you energized about the future of PB at Techwave
> or not?


0
Alain
8/6/2003 7:03:30 PM
dwX;

     Right on !

    After using VB.net myself I would agree with you 100% that I would use
PB 9 over .NET in a flash! But you are correct, the corporate world is not
getting the message from Sybase that PB is a "contender". Seminars need to
expound PB's distributed and Web capabilties (not just C/S). It is not given
away in schools to expose the younger crowd to what a super tool it really
is.

    No wonder the tool is fading in the corporate IT view.

The same thing will immediately happen to Pocket PowerBuilder unless Sybase
replaces the "old guard" mentality when it comes to how to market it's
products. In fact they never really had good "tools" sales people, just a
"Server" mentality which is more like the old Mainframe way of selling. The
innovative marketing and developer focus were lost in the PowerSoft merge
(employee fallout) and Sybase squeezing out partners that did 90% of the
product marketing.

regards ... Chris


<dw-extreme> wrote in message news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com...
> I am looking for opinions and viewpoints.  I think
> Powerbuilder has 2 distinct and quite different markets.
> The small to medium sized software market and corporate IT
> market.  In the software market where results are easy to
> measure on the bottom line I think PB is doing just fine.
> The productivity, efficiency and swift development process
> suites that market just fine.  Just keep your customers
> happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in PB based software
> packages considering the total lack of documentation.  That
> speaks volume on the capabilities of PB if you just get into
> it.
>
> On the IT market where results are measured quite
> differently I think PB is having a much more difficult time.
>  Its more just keep management happy.  And you know
> management wants to be 'forward' thinking.  You dont want to
> look like your standing still so there is pressure to go to
> the latest technology whether or not it is needed or if its
> the correct solution.  I have recieve so many emails similar
> to the following one which prompted this message.:
>
> "...Unfortunately we'll probably abandon Powerbuilder in
> favour of VB.NET...
>
> ...most developpers I know here never heard about PB or else
> there knwoledge about it is really outdated.
>
> I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an exstensive
> training) and I still like PB more (much more productive in
> about everything, far less code to get the same result..."
>
> So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore going
> forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the beginning of a
> new period of growth rather than decline.
>
> Again I would like to hear the opinions of others out there.
>  Are/were you energized about the future of PB at Techwave
> or not?


0
Chris
8/6/2003 7:23:09 PM
I have been programming in PB for close to 10 years. In that time, I have
written numerous small to very large scale applications utilizing most
features of PowerBuilder. For client/server development this was always an
equitable proposition for a varied client base...financially speaking. When
web development became a requirement, I started questioning the
reasonableness of a PB/EASERVER solution. Technically, I liked many of the
features; however, it simply wasn't cost effective for many companies in
terms of training, support and software procurement. Also, many clients
reflected the attitude PB was a legacy tool.

In 2002, I embarked on an effort to learn Visual Studio.NET and focus on web
development with C#.  My first impressions were very positive with respect
to the .NET framework, C# and VS.NET IDE. After trying to write some
real-life applications, I found myself wishing for a better development tool
to sit on top of .NET architecture. My main complaint was database access in
VS.NET. All I wanted was the datawindow. Instead, I got the datagrid and a
few other controls that are nice for display, but IMHO not very good for
transactional applications. My fundamental hope is that Sybase releases a
solid Datawindow.NET and Datastore.NET. The ability to publish non-visual
objects to .NET web services or assembly would also be a great addition. I'm
told the next version of VS.NET ( Whidbey ), will feature a much better RAD
data access methodology. Time will tell. I hope Sybase can make some
progress in the .NET market prior to that release. I believe seeing Sybase's
name linked to .NET would benefit PowerBuilder's reputation in most IT
departments.

Aside from technical improvements, I think Sybase also needs to foster the
developer community. I believe they have already made progress in this area
with SDN, CodeXchange and the hiring of PB evangelists. I do have to admit,
I was really blown away at the volume of .NET information, examples and open
source projects out there; for example, www.asp.net has **new** content
everyday. Also Microsoft tends to have a very specific roadmap for VS.NET
over the next few years ( real or not ). They have been very good at keeping
their developers in the loop and giving them access to new features
incrementally.

Most of my impressions here are based on web development. I believe
PowerBuilder is still much more efficient/productive as a client/server
tool. I guess my hope is that Sybase will bring the best of what they have
to offer to web application development in .NET.

<dw-extreme> wrote in message news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com...
> I am looking for opinions and viewpoints.  I think
> Powerbuilder has 2 distinct and quite different markets.
> The small to medium sized software market and corporate IT
> market.  In the software market where results are easy to
> measure on the bottom line I think PB is doing just fine.
> The productivity, efficiency and swift development process
> suites that market just fine.  Just keep your customers
> happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in PB based software
> packages considering the total lack of documentation.  That
> speaks volume on the capabilities of PB if you just get into
> it.
>
> On the IT market where results are measured quite
> differently I think PB is having a much more difficult time.
>  Its more just keep management happy.  And you know
> management wants to be 'forward' thinking.  You dont want to
> look like your standing still so there is pressure to go to
> the latest technology whether or not it is needed or if its
> the correct solution.  I have recieve so many emails similar
> to the following one which prompted this message.:
>
> "...Unfortunately we'll probably abandon Powerbuilder in
> favour of VB.NET...
>
> ...most developpers I know here never heard about PB or else
> there knwoledge about it is really outdated.
>
> I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an exstensive
> training) and I still like PB more (much more productive in
> about everything, far less code to get the same result..."
>
> So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore going
> forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the beginning of a
> new period of growth rather than decline.
>
> Again I would like to hear the opinions of others out there.
>  Are/were you energized about the future of PB at Techwave
> or not?


0
PB_Developer
8/6/2003 7:24:57 PM
Good point on Fostering a Development Community!
Had one (PowerSoft), lost it (Sybase)

"PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> wrote in message
news:3f315609$1@forums-1-dub...
>
> I have been programming in PB for close to 10 years. In that time, I have
> written numerous small to very large scale applications utilizing most
> features of PowerBuilder. For client/server development this was always an
> equitable proposition for a varied client base...financially speaking.
When
> web development became a requirement, I started questioning the
> reasonableness of a PB/EASERVER solution. Technically, I liked many of the
> features; however, it simply wasn't cost effective for many companies in
> terms of training, support and software procurement. Also, many clients
> reflected the attitude PB was a legacy tool.
>
> In 2002, I embarked on an effort to learn Visual Studio.NET and focus on
web
> development with C#.  My first impressions were very positive with respect
> to the .NET framework, C# and VS.NET IDE. After trying to write some
> real-life applications, I found myself wishing for a better development
tool
> to sit on top of .NET architecture. My main complaint was database access
in
> VS.NET. All I wanted was the datawindow. Instead, I got the datagrid and a
> few other controls that are nice for display, but IMHO not very good for
> transactional applications. My fundamental hope is that Sybase releases a
> solid Datawindow.NET and Datastore.NET. The ability to publish non-visual
> objects to .NET web services or assembly would also be a great addition.
I'm
> told the next version of VS.NET ( Whidbey ), will feature a much better
RAD
> data access methodology. Time will tell. I hope Sybase can make some
> progress in the .NET market prior to that release. I believe seeing
Sybase's
> name linked to .NET would benefit PowerBuilder's reputation in most IT
> departments.
>
> Aside from technical improvements, I think Sybase also needs to foster the
> developer community. I believe they have already made progress in this
area
> with SDN, CodeXchange and the hiring of PB evangelists. I do have to
admit,
> I was really blown away at the volume of .NET information, examples and
open
> source projects out there; for example, www.asp.net has **new** content
> everyday. Also Microsoft tends to have a very specific roadmap for VS.NET
> over the next few years ( real or not ). They have been very good at
keeping
> their developers in the loop and giving them access to new features
> incrementally.
>
> Most of my impressions here are based on web development. I believe
> PowerBuilder is still much more efficient/productive as a client/server
> tool. I guess my hope is that Sybase will bring the best of what they have
> to offer to web application development in .NET.
>
> <dw-extreme> wrote in message news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com...
> > I am looking for opinions and viewpoints.  I think
> > Powerbuilder has 2 distinct and quite different markets.
> > The small to medium sized software market and corporate IT
> > market.  In the software market where results are easy to
> > measure on the bottom line I think PB is doing just fine.
> > The productivity, efficiency and swift development process
> > suites that market just fine.  Just keep your customers
> > happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in PB based software
> > packages considering the total lack of documentation.  That
> > speaks volume on the capabilities of PB if you just get into
> > it.
> >
> > On the IT market where results are measured quite
> > differently I think PB is having a much more difficult time.
> >  Its more just keep management happy.  And you know
> > management wants to be 'forward' thinking.  You dont want to
> > look like your standing still so there is pressure to go to
> > the latest technology whether or not it is needed or if its
> > the correct solution.  I have recieve so many emails similar
> > to the following one which prompted this message.:
> >
> > "...Unfortunately we'll probably abandon Powerbuilder in
> > favour of VB.NET...
> >
> > ...most developpers I know here never heard about PB or else
> > there knwoledge about it is really outdated.
> >
> > I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an exstensive
> > training) and I still like PB more (much more productive in
> > about everything, far less code to get the same result..."
> >
> > So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore going
> > forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the beginning of a
> > new period of growth rather than decline.
> >
> > Again I would like to hear the opinions of others out there.
> >  Are/were you energized about the future of PB at Techwave
> > or not?
>
>


0
Chris
8/6/2003 7:47:57 PM
Right now, I am in period where I have to decid where to go...

I want to develop an application that will have client/server and web
functionnality.  In a few words, I want an application that I will be able
to sell on a client/server side or a web side.

And I want to try not using EAServer because it is very expensive ... in
time (learing curve) and money ...



"PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> a �crit dans le message news:
3f315609$1@forums-1-dub...
>
> I have been programming in PB for close to 10 years. In that time, I have
> written numerous small to very large scale applications utilizing most
> features of PowerBuilder. For client/server development this was always an
> equitable proposition for a varied client base...financially speaking.
When
> web development became a requirement, I started questioning the
> reasonableness of a PB/EASERVER solution. Technically, I liked many of the
> features; however, it simply wasn't cost effective for many companies in
> terms of training, support and software procurement. Also, many clients
> reflected the attitude PB was a legacy tool.
>
> In 2002, I embarked on an effort to learn Visual Studio.NET and focus on
web
> development with C#.  My first impressions were very positive with respect
> to the .NET framework, C# and VS.NET IDE. After trying to write some
> real-life applications, I found myself wishing for a better development
tool
> to sit on top of .NET architecture. My main complaint was database access
in
> VS.NET. All I wanted was the datawindow. Instead, I got the datagrid and a
> few other controls that are nice for display, but IMHO not very good for
> transactional applications. My fundamental hope is that Sybase releases a
> solid Datawindow.NET and Datastore.NET. The ability to publish non-visual
> objects to .NET web services or assembly would also be a great addition.
I'm
> told the next version of VS.NET ( Whidbey ), will feature a much better
RAD
> data access methodology. Time will tell. I hope Sybase can make some
> progress in the .NET market prior to that release. I believe seeing
Sybase's
> name linked to .NET would benefit PowerBuilder's reputation in most IT
> departments.
>
> Aside from technical improvements, I think Sybase also needs to foster the
> developer community. I believe they have already made progress in this
area
> with SDN, CodeXchange and the hiring of PB evangelists. I do have to
admit,
> I was really blown away at the volume of .NET information, examples and
open
> source projects out there; for example, www.asp.net has **new** content
> everyday. Also Microsoft tends to have a very specific roadmap for VS.NET
> over the next few years ( real or not ). They have been very good at
keeping
> their developers in the loop and giving them access to new features
> incrementally.
>
> Most of my impressions here are based on web development. I believe
> PowerBuilder is still much more efficient/productive as a client/server
> tool. I guess my hope is that Sybase will bring the best of what they have
> to offer to web application development in .NET.
>
> <dw-extreme> wrote in message news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com...
> > I am looking for opinions and viewpoints.  I think
> > Powerbuilder has 2 distinct and quite different markets.
> > The small to medium sized software market and corporate IT
> > market.  In the software market where results are easy to
> > measure on the bottom line I think PB is doing just fine.
> > The productivity, efficiency and swift development process
> > suites that market just fine.  Just keep your customers
> > happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in PB based software
> > packages considering the total lack of documentation.  That
> > speaks volume on the capabilities of PB if you just get into
> > it.
> >
> > On the IT market where results are measured quite
> > differently I think PB is having a much more difficult time.
> >  Its more just keep management happy.  And you know
> > management wants to be 'forward' thinking.  You dont want to
> > look like your standing still so there is pressure to go to
> > the latest technology whether or not it is needed or if its
> > the correct solution.  I have recieve so many emails similar
> > to the following one which prompted this message.:
> >
> > "...Unfortunately we'll probably abandon Powerbuilder in
> > favour of VB.NET...
> >
> > ...most developpers I know here never heard about PB or else
> > there knwoledge about it is really outdated.
> >
> > I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an exstensive
> > training) and I still like PB more (much more productive in
> > about everything, far less code to get the same result..."
> >
> > So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore going
> > forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the beginning of a
> > new period of growth rather than decline.
> >
> > Again I would like to hear the opinions of others out there.
> >  Are/were you energized about the future of PB at Techwave
> > or not?
>
>


0
Alain
8/6/2003 7:53:14 PM
Talking about learning curve... how much time do you think you will take in
learning .NET with some language (C#)? Will it be any lesser than learning
how to deploy components to web from PB (assuming you already know PB)? In
case you are not aware - EAServer comes in a small business edition which is
around 3K - all depends on your need.

--
Rahul

"Alain Bourque" <nospamlogiqueciels@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3f315caa$1@forums-1-dub...
> Right now, I am in period where I have to decid where to go...
>
> I want to develop an application that will have client/server and web
> functionnality.  In a few words, I want an application that I will be able
> to sell on a client/server side or a web side.
>
> And I want to try not using EAServer because it is very expensive ... in
> time (learing curve) and money ...
>
>
>
> "PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> a �crit dans le message news:
> 3f315609$1@forums-1-dub...
> >
> > I have been programming in PB for close to 10 years. In that time, I
have
> > written numerous small to very large scale applications utilizing most
> > features of PowerBuilder. For client/server development this was always
an
> > equitable proposition for a varied client base...financially speaking.
> When
> > web development became a requirement, I started questioning the
> > reasonableness of a PB/EASERVER solution. Technically, I liked many of
the
> > features; however, it simply wasn't cost effective for many companies in
> > terms of training, support and software procurement. Also, many clients
> > reflected the attitude PB was a legacy tool.
> >
> > In 2002, I embarked on an effort to learn Visual Studio.NET and focus on
> web
> > development with C#.  My first impressions were very positive with
respect
> > to the .NET framework, C# and VS.NET IDE. After trying to write some
> > real-life applications, I found myself wishing for a better development
> tool
> > to sit on top of .NET architecture. My main complaint was database
access
> in
> > VS.NET. All I wanted was the datawindow. Instead, I got the datagrid and
a
> > few other controls that are nice for display, but IMHO not very good for
> > transactional applications. My fundamental hope is that Sybase releases
a
> > solid Datawindow.NET and Datastore.NET. The ability to publish
non-visual
> > objects to .NET web services or assembly would also be a great addition.
> I'm
> > told the next version of VS.NET ( Whidbey ), will feature a much better
> RAD
> > data access methodology. Time will tell. I hope Sybase can make some
> > progress in the .NET market prior to that release. I believe seeing
> Sybase's
> > name linked to .NET would benefit PowerBuilder's reputation in most IT
> > departments.
> >
> > Aside from technical improvements, I think Sybase also needs to foster
the
> > developer community. I believe they have already made progress in this
> area
> > with SDN, CodeXchange and the hiring of PB evangelists. I do have to
> admit,
> > I was really blown away at the volume of .NET information, examples and
> open
> > source projects out there; for example, www.asp.net has **new** content
> > everyday. Also Microsoft tends to have a very specific roadmap for
VS.NET
> > over the next few years ( real or not ). They have been very good at
> keeping
> > their developers in the loop and giving them access to new features
> > incrementally.
> >
> > Most of my impressions here are based on web development. I believe
> > PowerBuilder is still much more efficient/productive as a client/server
> > tool. I guess my hope is that Sybase will bring the best of what they
have
> > to offer to web application development in .NET.
> >
> > <dw-extreme> wrote in message news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com...
> > > I am looking for opinions and viewpoints.  I think
> > > Powerbuilder has 2 distinct and quite different markets.
> > > The small to medium sized software market and corporate IT
> > > market.  In the software market where results are easy to
> > > measure on the bottom line I think PB is doing just fine.
> > > The productivity, efficiency and swift development process
> > > suites that market just fine.  Just keep your customers
> > > happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in PB based software
> > > packages considering the total lack of documentation.  That
> > > speaks volume on the capabilities of PB if you just get into
> > > it.
> > >
> > > On the IT market where results are measured quite
> > > differently I think PB is having a much more difficult time.
> > >  Its more just keep management happy.  And you know
> > > management wants to be 'forward' thinking.  You dont want to
> > > look like your standing still so there is pressure to go to
> > > the latest technology whether or not it is needed or if its
> > > the correct solution.  I have recieve so many emails similar
> > > to the following one which prompted this message.:
> > >
> > > "...Unfortunately we'll probably abandon Powerbuilder in
> > > favour of VB.NET...
> > >
> > > ...most developpers I know here never heard about PB or else
> > > there knwoledge about it is really outdated.
> > >
> > > I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an exstensive
> > > training) and I still like PB more (much more productive in
> > > about everything, far less code to get the same result..."
> > >
> > > So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore going
> > > forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the beginning of a
> > > new period of growth rather than decline.
> > >
> > > Again I would like to hear the opinions of others out there.
> > >  Are/were you energized about the future of PB at Techwave
> > > or not?
> >
> >
>
>


0
Rahul
8/6/2003 8:34:20 PM
I agree that it all depends on need and don't debate the learning curve for
each choice. One of the main issues I have seen is that EASERVER is not
viewed ( or even heard of ) in comparison to ASP.NET/IIS. Some of my clients
view EASERVER in much the same way they might view something like Borland
InterBase. It can be a functional solution, but it may not be optimal,
especially if your a Microsoft server shop trying to leverage what you
already own.

"Rahul Jain" <Rahul.Jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
news:3f31664c$1@forums-1-dub...
> Talking about learning curve... how much time do you think you will take
in
> learning .NET with some language (C#)? Will it be any lesser than learning
> how to deploy components to web from PB (assuming you already know PB)? In
> case you are not aware - EAServer comes in a small business edition which
is
> around 3K - all depends on your need.
>
> --
> Rahul
>
> "Alain Bourque" <nospamlogiqueciels@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:3f315caa$1@forums-1-dub...
> > Right now, I am in period where I have to decid where to go...
> >
> > I want to develop an application that will have client/server and web
> > functionnality.  In a few words, I want an application that I will be
able
> > to sell on a client/server side or a web side.
> >
> > And I want to try not using EAServer because it is very expensive ... in
> > time (learing curve) and money ...
> >
> >
> >
> > "PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> a �crit dans le message news:
> > 3f315609$1@forums-1-dub...
> > >
> > > I have been programming in PB for close to 10 years. In that time, I
> have
> > > written numerous small to very large scale applications utilizing most
> > > features of PowerBuilder. For client/server development this was
always
> an
> > > equitable proposition for a varied client base...financially speaking.
> > When
> > > web development became a requirement, I started questioning the
> > > reasonableness of a PB/EASERVER solution. Technically, I liked many of
> the
> > > features; however, it simply wasn't cost effective for many companies
in
> > > terms of training, support and software procurement. Also, many
clients
> > > reflected the attitude PB was a legacy tool.
> > >
> > > In 2002, I embarked on an effort to learn Visual Studio.NET and focus
on
> > web
> > > development with C#.  My first impressions were very positive with
> respect
> > > to the .NET framework, C# and VS.NET IDE. After trying to write some
> > > real-life applications, I found myself wishing for a better
development
> > tool
> > > to sit on top of .NET architecture. My main complaint was database
> access
> > in
> > > VS.NET. All I wanted was the datawindow. Instead, I got the datagrid
and
> a
> > > few other controls that are nice for display, but IMHO not very good
for
> > > transactional applications. My fundamental hope is that Sybase
releases
> a
> > > solid Datawindow.NET and Datastore.NET. The ability to publish
> non-visual
> > > objects to .NET web services or assembly would also be a great
addition.
> > I'm
> > > told the next version of VS.NET ( Whidbey ), will feature a much
better
> > RAD
> > > data access methodology. Time will tell. I hope Sybase can make some
> > > progress in the .NET market prior to that release. I believe seeing
> > Sybase's
> > > name linked to .NET would benefit PowerBuilder's reputation in most IT
> > > departments.
> > >
> > > Aside from technical improvements, I think Sybase also needs to foster
> the
> > > developer community. I believe they have already made progress in this
> > area
> > > with SDN, CodeXchange and the hiring of PB evangelists. I do have to
> > admit,
> > > I was really blown away at the volume of .NET information, examples
and
> > open
> > > source projects out there; for example, www.asp.net has **new**
content
> > > everyday. Also Microsoft tends to have a very specific roadmap for
> VS.NET
> > > over the next few years ( real or not ). They have been very good at
> > keeping
> > > their developers in the loop and giving them access to new features
> > > incrementally.
> > >
> > > Most of my impressions here are based on web development. I believe
> > > PowerBuilder is still much more efficient/productive as a
client/server
> > > tool. I guess my hope is that Sybase will bring the best of what they
> have
> > > to offer to web application development in .NET.
> > >
> > > <dw-extreme> wrote in message
news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com...
> > > > I am looking for opinions and viewpoints.  I think
> > > > Powerbuilder has 2 distinct and quite different markets.
> > > > The small to medium sized software market and corporate IT
> > > > market.  In the software market where results are easy to
> > > > measure on the bottom line I think PB is doing just fine.
> > > > The productivity, efficiency and swift development process
> > > > suites that market just fine.  Just keep your customers
> > > > happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in PB based software
> > > > packages considering the total lack of documentation.  That
> > > > speaks volume on the capabilities of PB if you just get into
> > > > it.
> > > >
> > > > On the IT market where results are measured quite
> > > > differently I think PB is having a much more difficult time.
> > > >  Its more just keep management happy.  And you know
> > > > management wants to be 'forward' thinking.  You dont want to
> > > > look like your standing still so there is pressure to go to
> > > > the latest technology whether or not it is needed or if its
> > > > the correct solution.  I have recieve so many emails similar
> > > > to the following one which prompted this message.:
> > > >
> > > > "...Unfortunately we'll probably abandon Powerbuilder in
> > > > favour of VB.NET...
> > > >
> > > > ...most developpers I know here never heard about PB or else
> > > > there knwoledge about it is really outdated.
> > > >
> > > > I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an exstensive
> > > > training) and I still like PB more (much more productive in
> > > > about everything, far less code to get the same result..."
> > > >
> > > > So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore going
> > > > forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the beginning of a
> > > > new period of growth rather than decline.
> > > >
> > > > Again I would like to hear the opinions of others out there.
> > > >  Are/were you energized about the future of PB at Techwave
> > > > or not?
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
PB_Developer
8/6/2003 9:16:07 PM
How can it be viewed in comparison to ASP.NET/IIS?

If it is compared, the to WebSphere, WebLogic, etc.

pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-))
Philip Salgannik

"PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> wrote in message
news:3f317017@forums-1-dub...
>
> I agree that it all depends on need and don't debate the learning curve
for
> each choice. One of the main issues I have seen is that EASERVER is not
> viewed ( or even heard of ) in comparison to ASP.NET/IIS. Some of my
clients
> view EASERVER in much the same way they might view something like Borland
> InterBase. It can be a functional solution, but it may not be optimal,
> especially if your a Microsoft server shop trying to leverage what you
> already own.
>
> "Rahul Jain" <Rahul.Jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
> news:3f31664c$1@forums-1-dub...
> > Talking about learning curve... how much time do you think you will take
> in
> > learning .NET with some language (C#)? Will it be any lesser than
learning
> > how to deploy components to web from PB (assuming you already know PB)?
In
> > case you are not aware - EAServer comes in a small business edition
which
> is
> > around 3K - all depends on your need.
> >
> > --
> > Rahul
> >
> > "Alain Bourque" <nospamlogiqueciels@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:3f315caa$1@forums-1-dub...
> > > Right now, I am in period where I have to decid where to go...
> > >
> > > I want to develop an application that will have client/server and web
> > > functionnality.  In a few words, I want an application that I will be
> able
> > > to sell on a client/server side or a web side.
> > >
> > > And I want to try not using EAServer because it is very expensive ...
in
> > > time (learing curve) and money ...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> a �crit dans le message
news:
> > > 3f315609$1@forums-1-dub...
> > > >
> > > > I have been programming in PB for close to 10 years. In that time, I
> > have
> > > > written numerous small to very large scale applications utilizing
most
> > > > features of PowerBuilder. For client/server development this was
> always
> > an
> > > > equitable proposition for a varied client base...financially
speaking.
> > > When
> > > > web development became a requirement, I started questioning the
> > > > reasonableness of a PB/EASERVER solution. Technically, I liked many
of
> > the
> > > > features; however, it simply wasn't cost effective for many
companies
> in
> > > > terms of training, support and software procurement. Also, many
> clients
> > > > reflected the attitude PB was a legacy tool.
> > > >
> > > > In 2002, I embarked on an effort to learn Visual Studio.NET and
focus
> on
> > > web
> > > > development with C#.  My first impressions were very positive with
> > respect
> > > > to the .NET framework, C# and VS.NET IDE. After trying to write some
> > > > real-life applications, I found myself wishing for a better
> development
> > > tool
> > > > to sit on top of .NET architecture. My main complaint was database
> > access
> > > in
> > > > VS.NET. All I wanted was the datawindow. Instead, I got the datagrid
> and
> > a
> > > > few other controls that are nice for display, but IMHO not very good
> for
> > > > transactional applications. My fundamental hope is that Sybase
> releases
> > a
> > > > solid Datawindow.NET and Datastore.NET. The ability to publish
> > non-visual
> > > > objects to .NET web services or assembly would also be a great
> addition.
> > > I'm
> > > > told the next version of VS.NET ( Whidbey ), will feature a much
> better
> > > RAD
> > > > data access methodology. Time will tell. I hope Sybase can make some
> > > > progress in the .NET market prior to that release. I believe seeing
> > > Sybase's
> > > > name linked to .NET would benefit PowerBuilder's reputation in most
IT
> > > > departments.
> > > >
> > > > Aside from technical improvements, I think Sybase also needs to
foster
> > the
> > > > developer community. I believe they have already made progress in
this
> > > area
> > > > with SDN, CodeXchange and the hiring of PB evangelists. I do have to
> > > admit,
> > > > I was really blown away at the volume of .NET information, examples
> and
> > > open
> > > > source projects out there; for example, www.asp.net has **new**
> content
> > > > everyday. Also Microsoft tends to have a very specific roadmap for
> > VS.NET
> > > > over the next few years ( real or not ). They have been very good at
> > > keeping
> > > > their developers in the loop and giving them access to new features
> > > > incrementally.
> > > >
> > > > Most of my impressions here are based on web development. I believe
> > > > PowerBuilder is still much more efficient/productive as a
> client/server
> > > > tool. I guess my hope is that Sybase will bring the best of what
they
> > have
> > > > to offer to web application development in .NET.
> > > >
> > > > <dw-extreme> wrote in message
> news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com...
> > > > > I am looking for opinions and viewpoints.  I think
> > > > > Powerbuilder has 2 distinct and quite different markets.
> > > > > The small to medium sized software market and corporate IT
> > > > > market.  In the software market where results are easy to
> > > > > measure on the bottom line I think PB is doing just fine.
> > > > > The productivity, efficiency and swift development process
> > > > > suites that market just fine.  Just keep your customers
> > > > > happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in PB based software
> > > > > packages considering the total lack of documentation.  That
> > > > > speaks volume on the capabilities of PB if you just get into
> > > > > it.
> > > > >
> > > > > On the IT market where results are measured quite
> > > > > differently I think PB is having a much more difficult time.
> > > > >  Its more just keep management happy.  And you know
> > > > > management wants to be 'forward' thinking.  You dont want to
> > > > > look like your standing still so there is pressure to go to
> > > > > the latest technology whether or not it is needed or if its
> > > > > the correct solution.  I have recieve so many emails similar
> > > > > to the following one which prompted this message.:
> > > > >
> > > > > "...Unfortunately we'll probably abandon Powerbuilder in
> > > > > favour of VB.NET...
> > > > >
> > > > > ...most developpers I know here never heard about PB or else
> > > > > there knwoledge about it is really outdated.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an exstensive
> > > > > training) and I still like PB more (much more productive in
> > > > > about everything, far less code to get the same result..."
> > > > >
> > > > > So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore going
> > > > > forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the beginning of a
> > > > > new period of growth rather than decline.
> > > > >
> > > > > Again I would like to hear the opinions of others out there.
> > > > >  Are/were you energized about the future of PB at Techwave
> > > > > or not?
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
Philip
8/7/2003 1:24:57 AM
I'm not sure I understand your point, Phil. Your noting the Java side of the
equation. The .NET solution offers the same result. My clients can choose to
publish proprietary components, beans or use .NET remoting/Web Services.
These days most IT shops I am working with are leaning toward .NET. The .NET
equation will be furthered with the release of VS.NET 2004 and the next
version of SQL Server ( Yukon ).

"Philip Salgannik" <philemaxNOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3f31aa69$1@forums-1-dub...
> How can it be viewed in comparison to ASP.NET/IIS?
>
> If it is compared, the to WebSphere, WebLogic, etc.
>
> pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-))
> Philip Salgannik
>
> "PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> wrote in message
> news:3f317017@forums-1-dub...
> >
> > I agree that it all depends on need and don't debate the learning curve
> for
> > each choice. One of the main issues I have seen is that EASERVER is not
> > viewed ( or even heard of ) in comparison to ASP.NET/IIS. Some of my
> clients
> > view EASERVER in much the same way they might view something like
Borland
> > InterBase. It can be a functional solution, but it may not be optimal,
> > especially if your a Microsoft server shop trying to leverage what you
> > already own.
> >
> > "Rahul Jain" <Rahul.Jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
> > news:3f31664c$1@forums-1-dub...
> > > Talking about learning curve... how much time do you think you will
take
> > in
> > > learning .NET with some language (C#)? Will it be any lesser than
> learning
> > > how to deploy components to web from PB (assuming you already know
PB)?
> In
> > > case you are not aware - EAServer comes in a small business edition
> which
> > is
> > > around 3K - all depends on your need.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Rahul
> > >
> > > "Alain Bourque" <nospamlogiqueciels@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:3f315caa$1@forums-1-dub...
> > > > Right now, I am in period where I have to decid where to go...
> > > >
> > > > I want to develop an application that will have client/server and
web
> > > > functionnality.  In a few words, I want an application that I will
be
> > able
> > > > to sell on a client/server side or a web side.
> > > >
> > > > And I want to try not using EAServer because it is very expensive
....
> in
> > > > time (learing curve) and money ...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> a �crit dans le message
> news:
> > > > 3f315609$1@forums-1-dub...
> > > > >
> > > > > I have been programming in PB for close to 10 years. In that time,
I
> > > have
> > > > > written numerous small to very large scale applications utilizing
> most
> > > > > features of PowerBuilder. For client/server development this was
> > always
> > > an
> > > > > equitable proposition for a varied client base...financially
> speaking.
> > > > When
> > > > > web development became a requirement, I started questioning the
> > > > > reasonableness of a PB/EASERVER solution. Technically, I liked
many
> of
> > > the
> > > > > features; however, it simply wasn't cost effective for many
> companies
> > in
> > > > > terms of training, support and software procurement. Also, many
> > clients
> > > > > reflected the attitude PB was a legacy tool.
> > > > >
> > > > > In 2002, I embarked on an effort to learn Visual Studio.NET and
> focus
> > on
> > > > web
> > > > > development with C#.  My first impressions were very positive with
> > > respect
> > > > > to the .NET framework, C# and VS.NET IDE. After trying to write
some
> > > > > real-life applications, I found myself wishing for a better
> > development
> > > > tool
> > > > > to sit on top of .NET architecture. My main complaint was database
> > > access
> > > > in
> > > > > VS.NET. All I wanted was the datawindow. Instead, I got the
datagrid
> > and
> > > a
> > > > > few other controls that are nice for display, but IMHO not very
good
> > for
> > > > > transactional applications. My fundamental hope is that Sybase
> > releases
> > > a
> > > > > solid Datawindow.NET and Datastore.NET. The ability to publish
> > > non-visual
> > > > > objects to .NET web services or assembly would also be a great
> > addition.
> > > > I'm
> > > > > told the next version of VS.NET ( Whidbey ), will feature a much
> > better
> > > > RAD
> > > > > data access methodology. Time will tell. I hope Sybase can make
some
> > > > > progress in the .NET market prior to that release. I believe
seeing
> > > > Sybase's
> > > > > name linked to .NET would benefit PowerBuilder's reputation in
most
> IT
> > > > > departments.
> > > > >
> > > > > Aside from technical improvements, I think Sybase also needs to
> foster
> > > the
> > > > > developer community. I believe they have already made progress in
> this
> > > > area
> > > > > with SDN, CodeXchange and the hiring of PB evangelists. I do have
to
> > > > admit,
> > > > > I was really blown away at the volume of .NET information,
examples
> > and
> > > > open
> > > > > source projects out there; for example, www.asp.net has **new**
> > content
> > > > > everyday. Also Microsoft tends to have a very specific roadmap for
> > > VS.NET
> > > > > over the next few years ( real or not ). They have been very good
at
> > > > keeping
> > > > > their developers in the loop and giving them access to new
features
> > > > > incrementally.
> > > > >
> > > > > Most of my impressions here are based on web development. I
believe
> > > > > PowerBuilder is still much more efficient/productive as a
> > client/server
> > > > > tool. I guess my hope is that Sybase will bring the best of what
> they
> > > have
> > > > > to offer to web application development in .NET.
> > > > >
> > > > > <dw-extreme> wrote in message
> > news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com...
> > > > > > I am looking for opinions and viewpoints.  I think
> > > > > > Powerbuilder has 2 distinct and quite different markets.
> > > > > > The small to medium sized software market and corporate IT
> > > > > > market.  In the software market where results are easy to
> > > > > > measure on the bottom line I think PB is doing just fine.
> > > > > > The productivity, efficiency and swift development process
> > > > > > suites that market just fine.  Just keep your customers
> > > > > > happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in PB based software
> > > > > > packages considering the total lack of documentation.  That
> > > > > > speaks volume on the capabilities of PB if you just get into
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On the IT market where results are measured quite
> > > > > > differently I think PB is having a much more difficult time.
> > > > > >  Its more just keep management happy.  And you know
> > > > > > management wants to be 'forward' thinking.  You dont want to
> > > > > > look like your standing still so there is pressure to go to
> > > > > > the latest technology whether or not it is needed or if its
> > > > > > the correct solution.  I have recieve so many emails similar
> > > > > > to the following one which prompted this message.:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "...Unfortunately we'll probably abandon Powerbuilder in
> > > > > > favour of VB.NET...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ...most developpers I know here never heard about PB or else
> > > > > > there knwoledge about it is really outdated.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an exstensive
> > > > > > training) and I still like PB more (much more productive in
> > > > > > about everything, far less code to get the same result..."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore going
> > > > > > forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the beginning of a
> > > > > > new period of growth rather than decline.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again I would like to hear the opinions of others out there.
> > > > > >  Are/were you energized about the future of PB at Techwave
> > > > > > or not?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
PB_Developer
8/7/2003 3:03:38 AM
And most IT shops anb big companies I am aware of  (are is a wrong tense)
leaned towards J2EE.

It is rather strange to compare apples and oranges.
EAServer is clearly a J2EE solution, with some proprietary twists, that if
used appropriately, leave RADity of any other tool (including .NET based)
far behind

pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-))
Philip Salgannik

"PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> wrote in message
news:3f31c18a$1@forums-1-dub...
>
> I'm not sure I understand your point, Phil. Your noting the Java side of
the
> equation. The .NET solution offers the same result. My clients can choose
to
> publish proprietary components, beans or use .NET remoting/Web Services.
> These days most IT shops I am working with are leaning toward .NET. The
..NET
> equation will be furthered with the release of VS.NET 2004 and the next
> version of SQL Server ( Yukon ).
>
> "Philip Salgannik" <philemaxNOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:3f31aa69$1@forums-1-dub...
> > How can it be viewed in comparison to ASP.NET/IIS?
> >
> > If it is compared, the to WebSphere, WebLogic, etc.
> >
> > pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-))
> > Philip Salgannik
> >
> > "PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> wrote in message
> > news:3f317017@forums-1-dub...
> > >
> > > I agree that it all depends on need and don't debate the learning
curve
> > for
> > > each choice. One of the main issues I have seen is that EASERVER is
not
> > > viewed ( or even heard of ) in comparison to ASP.NET/IIS. Some of my
> > clients
> > > view EASERVER in much the same way they might view something like
> Borland
> > > InterBase. It can be a functional solution, but it may not be optimal,
> > > especially if your a Microsoft server shop trying to leverage what you
> > > already own.
> > >
> > > "Rahul Jain" <Rahul.Jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3f31664c$1@forums-1-dub...
> > > > Talking about learning curve... how much time do you think you will
> take
> > > in
> > > > learning .NET with some language (C#)? Will it be any lesser than
> > learning
> > > > how to deploy components to web from PB (assuming you already know
> PB)?
> > In
> > > > case you are not aware - EAServer comes in a small business edition
> > which
> > > is
> > > > around 3K - all depends on your need.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Rahul
> > > >
> > > > "Alain Bourque" <nospamlogiqueciels@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:3f315caa$1@forums-1-dub...
> > > > > Right now, I am in period where I have to decid where to go...
> > > > >
> > > > > I want to develop an application that will have client/server and
> web
> > > > > functionnality.  In a few words, I want an application that I will
> be
> > > able
> > > > > to sell on a client/server side or a web side.
> > > > >
> > > > > And I want to try not using EAServer because it is very expensive
> ...
> > in
> > > > > time (learing curve) and money ...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> a �crit dans le message
> > news:
> > > > > 3f315609$1@forums-1-dub...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have been programming in PB for close to 10 years. In that
time,
> I
> > > > have
> > > > > > written numerous small to very large scale applications
utilizing
> > most
> > > > > > features of PowerBuilder. For client/server development this was
> > > always
> > > > an
> > > > > > equitable proposition for a varied client base...financially
> > speaking.
> > > > > When
> > > > > > web development became a requirement, I started questioning the
> > > > > > reasonableness of a PB/EASERVER solution. Technically, I liked
> many
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > features; however, it simply wasn't cost effective for many
> > companies
> > > in
> > > > > > terms of training, support and software procurement. Also, many
> > > clients
> > > > > > reflected the attitude PB was a legacy tool.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In 2002, I embarked on an effort to learn Visual Studio.NET and
> > focus
> > > on
> > > > > web
> > > > > > development with C#.  My first impressions were very positive
with
> > > > respect
> > > > > > to the .NET framework, C# and VS.NET IDE. After trying to write
> some
> > > > > > real-life applications, I found myself wishing for a better
> > > development
> > > > > tool
> > > > > > to sit on top of .NET architecture. My main complaint was
database
> > > > access
> > > > > in
> > > > > > VS.NET. All I wanted was the datawindow. Instead, I got the
> datagrid
> > > and
> > > > a
> > > > > > few other controls that are nice for display, but IMHO not very
> good
> > > for
> > > > > > transactional applications. My fundamental hope is that Sybase
> > > releases
> > > > a
> > > > > > solid Datawindow.NET and Datastore.NET. The ability to publish
> > > > non-visual
> > > > > > objects to .NET web services or assembly would also be a great
> > > addition.
> > > > > I'm
> > > > > > told the next version of VS.NET ( Whidbey ), will feature a much
> > > better
> > > > > RAD
> > > > > > data access methodology. Time will tell. I hope Sybase can make
> some
> > > > > > progress in the .NET market prior to that release. I believe
> seeing
> > > > > Sybase's
> > > > > > name linked to .NET would benefit PowerBuilder's reputation in
> most
> > IT
> > > > > > departments.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Aside from technical improvements, I think Sybase also needs to
> > foster
> > > > the
> > > > > > developer community. I believe they have already made progress
in
> > this
> > > > > area
> > > > > > with SDN, CodeXchange and the hiring of PB evangelists. I do
have
> to
> > > > > admit,
> > > > > > I was really blown away at the volume of .NET information,
> examples
> > > and
> > > > > open
> > > > > > source projects out there; for example, www.asp.net has **new**
> > > content
> > > > > > everyday. Also Microsoft tends to have a very specific roadmap
for
> > > > VS.NET
> > > > > > over the next few years ( real or not ). They have been very
good
> at
> > > > > keeping
> > > > > > their developers in the loop and giving them access to new
> features
> > > > > > incrementally.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Most of my impressions here are based on web development. I
> believe
> > > > > > PowerBuilder is still much more efficient/productive as a
> > > client/server
> > > > > > tool. I guess my hope is that Sybase will bring the best of what
> > they
> > > > have
> > > > > > to offer to web application development in .NET.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > <dw-extreme> wrote in message
> > > news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com...
> > > > > > > I am looking for opinions and viewpoints.  I think
> > > > > > > Powerbuilder has 2 distinct and quite different markets.
> > > > > > > The small to medium sized software market and corporate IT
> > > > > > > market.  In the software market where results are easy to
> > > > > > > measure on the bottom line I think PB is doing just fine.
> > > > > > > The productivity, efficiency and swift development process
> > > > > > > suites that market just fine.  Just keep your customers
> > > > > > > happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in PB based software
> > > > > > > packages considering the total lack of documentation.  That
> > > > > > > speaks volume on the capabilities of PB if you just get into
> > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On the IT market where results are measured quite
> > > > > > > differently I think PB is having a much more difficult time.
> > > > > > >  Its more just keep management happy.  And you know
> > > > > > > management wants to be 'forward' thinking.  You dont want to
> > > > > > > look like your standing still so there is pressure to go to
> > > > > > > the latest technology whether or not it is needed or if its
> > > > > > > the correct solution.  I have recieve so many emails similar
> > > > > > > to the following one which prompted this message.:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "...Unfortunately we'll probably abandon Powerbuilder in
> > > > > > > favour of VB.NET...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ...most developpers I know here never heard about PB or else
> > > > > > > there knwoledge about it is really outdated.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an exstensive
> > > > > > > training) and I still like PB more (much more productive in
> > > > > > > about everything, far less code to get the same result..."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore going
> > > > > > > forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the beginning of a
> > > > > > > new period of growth rather than decline.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Again I would like to hear the opinions of others out there.
> > > > > > >  Are/were you energized about the future of PB at Techwave
> > > > > > > or not?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
Philip
8/7/2003 4:52:37 AM
Dear Rahul ...

For instance, if I want to sell an application develop with EAServer.
And I want to install all that stuff at the client office, how much do you
think my client will have to pay for EAServer ?



"Rahul Jain" <Rahul.Jain@cynergysystems.com> a �crit dans le message news:
3f31664c$1@forums-1-dub...
> Talking about learning curve... how much time do you think you will take
in
> learning .NET with some language (C#)? Will it be any lesser than learning
> how to deploy components to web from PB (assuming you already know PB)? In
> case you are not aware - EAServer comes in a small business edition which
is
> around 3K - all depends on your need.
>
> --
> Rahul
>
> "Alain Bourque" <nospamlogiqueciels@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:3f315caa$1@forums-1-dub...
> > Right now, I am in period where I have to decid where to go...
> >
> > I want to develop an application that will have client/server and web
> > functionnality.  In a few words, I want an application that I will be
able
> > to sell on a client/server side or a web side.
> >
> > And I want to try not using EAServer because it is very expensive ... in
> > time (learing curve) and money ...
> >
> >
> >
> > "PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> a �crit dans le message news:
> > 3f315609$1@forums-1-dub...
> > >
> > > I have been programming in PB for close to 10 years. In that time, I
> have
> > > written numerous small to very large scale applications utilizing most
> > > features of PowerBuilder. For client/server development this was
always
> an
> > > equitable proposition for a varied client base...financially speaking.
> > When
> > > web development became a requirement, I started questioning the
> > > reasonableness of a PB/EASERVER solution. Technically, I liked many of
> the
> > > features; however, it simply wasn't cost effective for many companies
in
> > > terms of training, support and software procurement. Also, many
clients
> > > reflected the attitude PB was a legacy tool.
> > >
> > > In 2002, I embarked on an effort to learn Visual Studio.NET and focus
on
> > web
> > > development with C#.  My first impressions were very positive with
> respect
> > > to the .NET framework, C# and VS.NET IDE. After trying to write some
> > > real-life applications, I found myself wishing for a better
development
> > tool
> > > to sit on top of .NET architecture. My main complaint was database
> access
> > in
> > > VS.NET. All I wanted was the datawindow. Instead, I got the datagrid
and
> a
> > > few other controls that are nice for display, but IMHO not very good
for
> > > transactional applications. My fundamental hope is that Sybase
releases
> a
> > > solid Datawindow.NET and Datastore.NET. The ability to publish
> non-visual
> > > objects to .NET web services or assembly would also be a great
addition.
> > I'm
> > > told the next version of VS.NET ( Whidbey ), will feature a much
better
> > RAD
> > > data access methodology. Time will tell. I hope Sybase can make some
> > > progress in the .NET market prior to that release. I believe seeing
> > Sybase's
> > > name linked to .NET would benefit PowerBuilder's reputation in most IT
> > > departments.
> > >
> > > Aside from technical improvements, I think Sybase also needs to foster
> the
> > > developer community. I believe they have already made progress in this
> > area
> > > with SDN, CodeXchange and the hiring of PB evangelists. I do have to
> > admit,
> > > I was really blown away at the volume of .NET information, examples
and
> > open
> > > source projects out there; for example, www.asp.net has **new**
content
> > > everyday. Also Microsoft tends to have a very specific roadmap for
> VS.NET
> > > over the next few years ( real or not ). They have been very good at
> > keeping
> > > their developers in the loop and giving them access to new features
> > > incrementally.
> > >
> > > Most of my impressions here are based on web development. I believe
> > > PowerBuilder is still much more efficient/productive as a
client/server
> > > tool. I guess my hope is that Sybase will bring the best of what they
> have
> > > to offer to web application development in .NET.
> > >
> > > <dw-extreme> wrote in message
news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com...
> > > > I am looking for opinions and viewpoints.  I think
> > > > Powerbuilder has 2 distinct and quite different markets.
> > > > The small to medium sized software market and corporate IT
> > > > market.  In the software market where results are easy to
> > > > measure on the bottom line I think PB is doing just fine.
> > > > The productivity, efficiency and swift development process
> > > > suites that market just fine.  Just keep your customers
> > > > happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in PB based software
> > > > packages considering the total lack of documentation.  That
> > > > speaks volume on the capabilities of PB if you just get into
> > > > it.
> > > >
> > > > On the IT market where results are measured quite
> > > > differently I think PB is having a much more difficult time.
> > > >  Its more just keep management happy.  And you know
> > > > management wants to be 'forward' thinking.  You dont want to
> > > > look like your standing still so there is pressure to go to
> > > > the latest technology whether or not it is needed or if its
> > > > the correct solution.  I have recieve so many emails similar
> > > > to the following one which prompted this message.:
> > > >
> > > > "...Unfortunately we'll probably abandon Powerbuilder in
> > > > favour of VB.NET...
> > > >
> > > > ...most developpers I know here never heard about PB or else
> > > > there knwoledge about it is really outdated.
> > > >
> > > > I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an exstensive
> > > > training) and I still like PB more (much more productive in
> > > > about everything, far less code to get the same result..."
> > > >
> > > > So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore going
> > > > forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the beginning of a
> > > > new period of growth rather than decline.
> > > >
> > > > Again I would like to hear the opinions of others out there.
> > > >  Are/were you energized about the future of PB at Techwave
> > > > or not?
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
Alain
8/7/2003 12:05:17 PM
> For instance, if I want to sell an application develop with EAServer.
> And I want to install all that stuff at the client office, how much do you
> think my client will have to pay for EAServer ?

Talk to Sybase sales representative - they might be able to tell you exact
prices. Also, I think there is an OEM license for EAServer.


-- 
Rahul Jain

Enterprise Application Framework for PB-EAServer Applications
http://www.cynergysystems.com/public/products/eaf/


0
Rahul
8/7/2003 3:23:17 PM
I think I qualify to fall in your first group (software vendors using pb for
their products) but I disagree that its doing well there.  I am a dev
manager for a small software vendor and we are moving as fast as possible
away from pb.  The biggest concern is shrinking pb developer pool to fill
positions from.

I don't know a single shop, whether its a software vendor or an IT org or a
regular company, that is starting new projects with pb.  PB is just wasting
away.  If Sybase wants to revitalize pb they have to do drastic and big
things to pb.  Things like pdf generation that came in v9 should be
footnotes to releases, not major features.  Yeah everybody wants pdf
generation (although I think there solution was less than useable) but that
is not something thats gonna cause customers to switch to pb.  And also stop
making features that nobody except transitioning pb shops are gonna use.
JSP targets??? Who would ever use pb for jsps??  You'd have to be smoking
crack.  Sure it makes it easier for pb users hosting objects in easerver and
calling them from those jsps but thats not going to gain them pb new
converts.

Honestly I don't think Sybase can compete as a tools company.  I don't think
they even really have the spirit and gumption for it.  As a pb fan I hate to
say it but I don't think there is gonna be any light at the end of the
tunnel for pb.  I think Sybase needs to chop out the datawindow and sell it
seperately.  They seem to be going that route with .NET datawindow.  They
also need to bring back a java datawindow solution, except a jsp solution
thats not tied to easerver.  Really I can see it more like a code generator,
something that would generate your view (jsp) and model (bean) for execution
in any servlet container.  They could write and sell it as an eclipse plugin
(eclipse is simply taking over).

If all Sybase does is focus on making incremental changes to pb then its
course will not change.  Almost everythign that came out in pb 9, imho, was
either worthless to most (jsp targets, orcascript) or it was soo late to not
be exciting (xml,pdf).

PocketPowerBuilder is the only thing thats seems really smart.

-Chris

p.s.  And they need to do drastic things *while* they incrementally fix the
things that have sucked for so long (like the crappy visual appearance of a
grid dw vs a standards windows listview).

<dw-extreme> wrote in message news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com...
> I am looking for opinions and viewpoints.  I think
> Powerbuilder has 2 distinct and quite different markets.
> The small to medium sized software market and corporate IT
> market.  In the software market where results are easy to
> measure on the bottom line I think PB is doing just fine.
> The productivity, efficiency and swift development process
> suites that market just fine.  Just keep your customers
> happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in PB based software
> packages considering the total lack of documentation.  That
> speaks volume on the capabilities of PB if you just get into
> it.
>
> On the IT market where results are measured quite
> differently I think PB is having a much more difficult time.
>  Its more just keep management happy.  And you know
> management wants to be 'forward' thinking.  You dont want to
> look like your standing still so there is pressure to go to
> the latest technology whether or not it is needed or if its
> the correct solution.  I have recieve so many emails similar
> to the following one which prompted this message.:
>
> "...Unfortunately we'll probably abandon Powerbuilder in
> favour of VB.NET...
>
> ...most developpers I know here never heard about PB or else
> there knwoledge about it is really outdated.
>
> I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an exstensive
> training) and I still like PB more (much more productive in
> about everything, far less code to get the same result..."
>
> So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore going
> forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the beginning of a
> new period of growth rather than decline.
>
> Again I would like to hear the opinions of others out there.
>  Are/were you energized about the future of PB at Techwave
> or not?


0
Chris
8/7/2003 3:46:03 PM
They may be apples and oranges, but they are both valid solutions which most
IT shops will adopt discretely. From a technical point of view they are
different. From a management point of view, they are very similar. I'm not
saying the corporate IT argument is technically valid, but it does greatly
impact our careers. If you believe most of the 2003 surveys, the development
of .NET and Java based web solutions are in a dead heat. I think Sybase
should support ..NET very well or not at all. I don't want to see another
PowerJ or Web.PB. There is a great opportunity for Sybase to get it's name
out in the .NET community with the datawindow. The RAD data access abilities
of VS.NET are not very mature ( for transaction based applications ).

"Philip Salgannik" <philemaxNOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3f31db15$1@forums-1-dub...
> And most IT shops anb big companies I am aware of  (are is a wrong tense)
> leaned towards J2EE.
>
> It is rather strange to compare apples and oranges.
> EAServer is clearly a J2EE solution, with some proprietary twists, that if
> used appropriately, leave RADity of any other tool (including .NET based)
> far behind
>
> pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-))
> Philip Salgannik
>
> "PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> wrote in message
> news:3f31c18a$1@forums-1-dub...
> >
> > I'm not sure I understand your point, Phil. Your noting the Java side of
> the
> > equation. The .NET solution offers the same result. My clients can
choose
> to
> > publish proprietary components, beans or use .NET remoting/Web Services.
> > These days most IT shops I am working with are leaning toward .NET. The
> .NET
> > equation will be furthered with the release of VS.NET 2004 and the next
> > version of SQL Server ( Yukon ).
> >
> > "Philip Salgannik" <philemaxNOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:3f31aa69$1@forums-1-dub...
> > > How can it be viewed in comparison to ASP.NET/IIS?
> > >
> > > If it is compared, the to WebSphere, WebLogic, etc.
> > >
> > > pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-))
> > > Philip Salgannik
> > >
> > > "PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3f317017@forums-1-dub...
> > > >
> > > > I agree that it all depends on need and don't debate the learning
> curve
> > > for
> > > > each choice. One of the main issues I have seen is that EASERVER is
> not
> > > > viewed ( or even heard of ) in comparison to ASP.NET/IIS. Some of my
> > > clients
> > > > view EASERVER in much the same way they might view something like
> > Borland
> > > > InterBase. It can be a functional solution, but it may not be
optimal,
> > > > especially if your a Microsoft server shop trying to leverage what
you
> > > > already own.
> > > >
> > > > "Rahul Jain" <Rahul.Jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:3f31664c$1@forums-1-dub...
> > > > > Talking about learning curve... how much time do you think you
will
> > take
> > > > in
> > > > > learning .NET with some language (C#)? Will it be any lesser than
> > > learning
> > > > > how to deploy components to web from PB (assuming you already know
> > PB)?
> > > In
> > > > > case you are not aware - EAServer comes in a small business
edition
> > > which
> > > > is
> > > > > around 3K - all depends on your need.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Rahul
> > > > >
> > > > > "Alain Bourque" <nospamlogiqueciels@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3f315caa$1@forums-1-dub...
> > > > > > Right now, I am in period where I have to decid where to go...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I want to develop an application that will have client/server
and
> > web
> > > > > > functionnality.  In a few words, I want an application that I
will
> > be
> > > > able
> > > > > > to sell on a client/server side or a web side.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And I want to try not using EAServer because it is very
expensive
> > ...
> > > in
> > > > > > time (learing curve) and money ...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> a �crit dans le
message
> > > news:
> > > > > > 3f315609$1@forums-1-dub...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have been programming in PB for close to 10 years. In that
> time,
> > I
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > written numerous small to very large scale applications
> utilizing
> > > most
> > > > > > > features of PowerBuilder. For client/server development this
was
> > > > always
> > > > > an
> > > > > > > equitable proposition for a varied client base...financially
> > > speaking.
> > > > > > When
> > > > > > > web development became a requirement, I started questioning
the
> > > > > > > reasonableness of a PB/EASERVER solution. Technically, I liked
> > many
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > features; however, it simply wasn't cost effective for many
> > > companies
> > > > in
> > > > > > > terms of training, support and software procurement. Also,
many
> > > > clients
> > > > > > > reflected the attitude PB was a legacy tool.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In 2002, I embarked on an effort to learn Visual Studio.NET
and
> > > focus
> > > > on
> > > > > > web
> > > > > > > development with C#.  My first impressions were very positive
> with
> > > > > respect
> > > > > > > to the .NET framework, C# and VS.NET IDE. After trying to
write
> > some
> > > > > > > real-life applications, I found myself wishing for a better
> > > > development
> > > > > > tool
> > > > > > > to sit on top of .NET architecture. My main complaint was
> database
> > > > > access
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > VS.NET. All I wanted was the datawindow. Instead, I got the
> > datagrid
> > > > and
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > few other controls that are nice for display, but IMHO not
very
> > good
> > > > for
> > > > > > > transactional applications. My fundamental hope is that Sybase
> > > > releases
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > solid Datawindow.NET and Datastore.NET. The ability to publish
> > > > > non-visual
> > > > > > > objects to .NET web services or assembly would also be a great
> > > > addition.
> > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > told the next version of VS.NET ( Whidbey ), will feature a
much
> > > > better
> > > > > > RAD
> > > > > > > data access methodology. Time will tell. I hope Sybase can
make
> > some
> > > > > > > progress in the .NET market prior to that release. I believe
> > seeing
> > > > > > Sybase's
> > > > > > > name linked to .NET would benefit PowerBuilder's reputation in
> > most
> > > IT
> > > > > > > departments.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Aside from technical improvements, I think Sybase also needs
to
> > > foster
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > developer community. I believe they have already made progress
> in
> > > this
> > > > > > area
> > > > > > > with SDN, CodeXchange and the hiring of PB evangelists. I do
> have
> > to
> > > > > > admit,
> > > > > > > I was really blown away at the volume of .NET information,
> > examples
> > > > and
> > > > > > open
> > > > > > > source projects out there; for example, www.asp.net has
**new**
> > > > content
> > > > > > > everyday. Also Microsoft tends to have a very specific roadmap
> for
> > > > > VS.NET
> > > > > > > over the next few years ( real or not ). They have been very
> good
> > at
> > > > > > keeping
> > > > > > > their developers in the loop and giving them access to new
> > features
> > > > > > > incrementally.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Most of my impressions here are based on web development. I
> > believe
> > > > > > > PowerBuilder is still much more efficient/productive as a
> > > > client/server
> > > > > > > tool. I guess my hope is that Sybase will bring the best of
what
> > > they
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > to offer to web application development in .NET.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > <dw-extreme> wrote in message
> > > > news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com...
> > > > > > > > I am looking for opinions and viewpoints.  I think
> > > > > > > > Powerbuilder has 2 distinct and quite different markets.
> > > > > > > > The small to medium sized software market and corporate IT
> > > > > > > > market.  In the software market where results are easy to
> > > > > > > > measure on the bottom line I think PB is doing just fine.
> > > > > > > > The productivity, efficiency and swift development process
> > > > > > > > suites that market just fine.  Just keep your customers
> > > > > > > > happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in PB based software
> > > > > > > > packages considering the total lack of documentation.  That
> > > > > > > > speaks volume on the capabilities of PB if you just get into
> > > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On the IT market where results are measured quite
> > > > > > > > differently I think PB is having a much more difficult time.
> > > > > > > >  Its more just keep management happy.  And you know
> > > > > > > > management wants to be 'forward' thinking.  You dont want to
> > > > > > > > look like your standing still so there is pressure to go to
> > > > > > > > the latest technology whether or not it is needed or if its
> > > > > > > > the correct solution.  I have recieve so many emails similar
> > > > > > > > to the following one which prompted this message.:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "...Unfortunately we'll probably abandon Powerbuilder in
> > > > > > > > favour of VB.NET...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ...most developpers I know here never heard about PB or else
> > > > > > > > there knwoledge about it is really outdated.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an exstensive
> > > > > > > > training) and I still like PB more (much more productive in
> > > > > > > > about everything, far less code to get the same result..."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore going
> > > > > > > > forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the beginning of a
> > > > > > > > new period of growth rather than decline.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Again I would like to hear the opinions of others out there.
> > > > > > > >  Are/were you energized about the future of PB at Techwave
> > > > > > > > or not?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
PB_Developer
8/7/2003 3:58:27 PM
Gone are the days people think web = java.
As PB basically a windows based product, the more the features of MS it
supports, the better is its survival and usage from windows based
developers.
the more .NET integration in the future, more buyers for it.

"Philip Salgannik" <philemaxNOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3f31db15$1@forums-1-dub...
> And most IT shops anb big companies I am aware of  (are is a wrong tense)
> leaned towards J2EE.
>
> It is rather strange to compare apples and oranges.
> EAServer is clearly a J2EE solution, with some proprietary twists, that if
> used appropriately, leave RADity of any other tool (including .NET based)
> far behind
>
> pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-))
> Philip Salgannik
>
> "PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> wrote in message
> news:3f31c18a$1@forums-1-dub...
> >
> > I'm not sure I understand your point, Phil. Your noting the Java side of
> the
> > equation. The .NET solution offers the same result. My clients can
choose
> to
> > publish proprietary components, beans or use .NET remoting/Web Services.
> > These days most IT shops I am working with are leaning toward .NET. The
> .NET
> > equation will be furthered with the release of VS.NET 2004 and the next
> > version of SQL Server ( Yukon ).
> >
> > "Philip Salgannik" <philemaxNOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:3f31aa69$1@forums-1-dub...
> > > How can it be viewed in comparison to ASP.NET/IIS?
> > >
> > > If it is compared, the to WebSphere, WebLogic, etc.
> > >
> > > pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-))
> > > Philip Salgannik
> > >
> > > "PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3f317017@forums-1-dub...
> > > >
> > > > I agree that it all depends on need and don't debate the learning
> curve
> > > for
> > > > each choice. One of the main issues I have seen is that EASERVER is
> not
> > > > viewed ( or even heard of ) in comparison to ASP.NET/IIS. Some of my
> > > clients
> > > > view EASERVER in much the same way they might view something like
> > Borland
> > > > InterBase. It can be a functional solution, but it may not be
optimal,
> > > > especially if your a Microsoft server shop trying to leverage what
you
> > > > already own.
> > > >
> > > > "Rahul Jain" <Rahul.Jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:3f31664c$1@forums-1-dub...
> > > > > Talking about learning curve... how much time do you think you
will
> > take
> > > > in
> > > > > learning .NET with some language (C#)? Will it be any lesser than
> > > learning
> > > > > how to deploy components to web from PB (assuming you already know
> > PB)?
> > > In
> > > > > case you are not aware - EAServer comes in a small business
edition
> > > which
> > > > is
> > > > > around 3K - all depends on your need.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Rahul
> > > > >
> > > > > "Alain Bourque" <nospamlogiqueciels@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3f315caa$1@forums-1-dub...
> > > > > > Right now, I am in period where I have to decid where to go...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I want to develop an application that will have client/server
and
> > web
> > > > > > functionnality.  In a few words, I want an application that I
will
> > be
> > > > able
> > > > > > to sell on a client/server side or a web side.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And I want to try not using EAServer because it is very
expensive
> > ...
> > > in
> > > > > > time (learing curve) and money ...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> a �crit dans le
message
> > > news:
> > > > > > 3f315609$1@forums-1-dub...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have been programming in PB for close to 10 years. In that
> time,
> > I
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > written numerous small to very large scale applications
> utilizing
> > > most
> > > > > > > features of PowerBuilder. For client/server development this
was
> > > > always
> > > > > an
> > > > > > > equitable proposition for a varied client base...financially
> > > speaking.
> > > > > > When
> > > > > > > web development became a requirement, I started questioning
the
> > > > > > > reasonableness of a PB/EASERVER solution. Technically, I liked
> > many
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > features; however, it simply wasn't cost effective for many
> > > companies
> > > > in
> > > > > > > terms of training, support and software procurement. Also,
many
> > > > clients
> > > > > > > reflected the attitude PB was a legacy tool.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In 2002, I embarked on an effort to learn Visual Studio.NET
and
> > > focus
> > > > on
> > > > > > web
> > > > > > > development with C#.  My first impressions were very positive
> with
> > > > > respect
> > > > > > > to the .NET framework, C# and VS.NET IDE. After trying to
write
> > some
> > > > > > > real-life applications, I found myself wishing for a better
> > > > development
> > > > > > tool
> > > > > > > to sit on top of .NET architecture. My main complaint was
> database
> > > > > access
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > VS.NET. All I wanted was the datawindow. Instead, I got the
> > datagrid
> > > > and
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > few other controls that are nice for display, but IMHO not
very
> > good
> > > > for
> > > > > > > transactional applications. My fundamental hope is that Sybase
> > > > releases
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > solid Datawindow.NET and Datastore.NET. The ability to publish
> > > > > non-visual
> > > > > > > objects to .NET web services or assembly would also be a great
> > > > addition.
> > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > told the next version of VS.NET ( Whidbey ), will feature a
much
> > > > better
> > > > > > RAD
> > > > > > > data access methodology. Time will tell. I hope Sybase can
make
> > some
> > > > > > > progress in the .NET market prior to that release. I believe
> > seeing
> > > > > > Sybase's
> > > > > > > name linked to .NET would benefit PowerBuilder's reputation in
> > most
> > > IT
> > > > > > > departments.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Aside from technical improvements, I think Sybase also needs
to
> > > foster
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > developer community. I believe they have already made progress
> in
> > > this
> > > > > > area
> > > > > > > with SDN, CodeXchange and the hiring of PB evangelists. I do
> have
> > to
> > > > > > admit,
> > > > > > > I was really blown away at the volume of .NET information,
> > examples
> > > > and
> > > > > > open
> > > > > > > source projects out there; for example, www.asp.net has
**new**
> > > > content
> > > > > > > everyday. Also Microsoft tends to have a very specific roadmap
> for
> > > > > VS.NET
> > > > > > > over the next few years ( real or not ). They have been very
> good
> > at
> > > > > > keeping
> > > > > > > their developers in the loop and giving them access to new
> > features
> > > > > > > incrementally.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Most of my impressions here are based on web development. I
> > believe
> > > > > > > PowerBuilder is still much more efficient/productive as a
> > > > client/server
> > > > > > > tool. I guess my hope is that Sybase will bring the best of
what
> > > they
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > to offer to web application development in .NET.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > <dw-extreme> wrote in message
> > > > news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com...
> > > > > > > > I am looking for opinions and viewpoints.  I think
> > > > > > > > Powerbuilder has 2 distinct and quite different markets.
> > > > > > > > The small to medium sized software market and corporate IT
> > > > > > > > market.  In the software market where results are easy to
> > > > > > > > measure on the bottom line I think PB is doing just fine.
> > > > > > > > The productivity, efficiency and swift development process
> > > > > > > > suites that market just fine.  Just keep your customers
> > > > > > > > happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in PB based software
> > > > > > > > packages considering the total lack of documentation.  That
> > > > > > > > speaks volume on the capabilities of PB if you just get into
> > > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On the IT market where results are measured quite
> > > > > > > > differently I think PB is having a much more difficult time.
> > > > > > > >  Its more just keep management happy.  And you know
> > > > > > > > management wants to be 'forward' thinking.  You dont want to
> > > > > > > > look like your standing still so there is pressure to go to
> > > > > > > > the latest technology whether or not it is needed or if its
> > > > > > > > the correct solution.  I have recieve so many emails similar
> > > > > > > > to the following one which prompted this message.:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "...Unfortunately we'll probably abandon Powerbuilder in
> > > > > > > > favour of VB.NET...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ...most developpers I know here never heard about PB or else
> > > > > > > > there knwoledge about it is really outdated.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an exstensive
> > > > > > > > training) and I still like PB more (much more productive in
> > > > > > > > about everything, far less code to get the same result..."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore going
> > > > > > > > forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the beginning of a
> > > > > > > > new period of growth rather than decline.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Again I would like to hear the opinions of others out there.
> > > > > > > >  Are/were you energized about the future of PB at Techwave
> > > > > > > > or not?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
WS
8/7/2003 4:06:05 PM
> I think I qualify to fall in your first group (software
> vendors using pb for their products) but I disagree that
> its doing well there.  I am a dev manager for a small
> software vendor and we are moving as fast as possible away
> from pb.  The biggest concern is shrinking pb developer
> pool to fill positions from.
>

My employer has no problems finding new PB developers.

> I don't know a single shop, whether its a software vendor
> or an IT org or a regular company, that is starting new
> projects with pb.  PB is just wasting away.

To disagree with the above, my employer is busy starting
three or
four NEW PB projects.  PB is here to stay.

> If Sybase
> wants to revitalize pb they have to do drastic and big
> things to pb.  Things like pdf generation that came in v9
> should be footnotes to releases, not major features.  Yeah
> everybody wants pdf generation (although I think there
> solution was less than useable) but that is not something
> thats gonna cause customers to switch to pb.


>  And also
> stop making features that nobody except transitioning pb
> shops are gonna use. JSP targets??? Who would ever use pb
> for jsps??

I am using those features.

> You'd have to be smoking crack.  Sure it makes
> it easier for pb users hosting objects in easerver and
> calling them from those jsps but thats not going to gain
> them pb new converts.
>

I am hosting JSPs in third-party J2EE servers.

> Honestly I don't think Sybase can compete as a tools
> company.  I don't think they even really have the spirit
> and gumption for it.  As a pb fan I hate to say it but I
> don't think there is gonna be any light at the end of the
> tunnel for pb.  I think Sybase needs to chop out the
> datawindow and sell it seperately.  They seem to be going
> that route with .NET datawindow.  They also need to bring
> back a java datawindow solution, except a jsp solution
> thats not tied to easerver.  Really I can see it more like
> a code generator, something that would generate your view
> (jsp) and model (bean) for execution in any servlet
> container.  They could write and sell it as an eclipse
> plugin (eclipse is simply taking over).
>

I agree with you here. I can claim that I understand and
admire
all Sun and Microsoft moves, but I don't make similar claim
about Sybase even after having used their products for a
long
time.

> If all Sybase does is focus on making incremental changes
> to pb then its course will not change.  Almost everythign
> that came out in pb 9, imho, was either worthless to most
> (jsp targets, orcascript) or it was soo late to not be
> exciting (xml,pdf).
>

IMHO, JSP targets are wise.

Orcascript?  I know it, but I don't touch it.  It could be
better if it was written as a PB console app.  Why wrote
it as a VC++ app?

> PocketPowerBuilder is the only thing thats seems really
> smart.
>
> -Chris
>
> p.s.  And they need to do drastic things *while* they
> incrementally fix the things that have sucked for so long
> (like the crappy visual appearance of a grid dw vs a
> standards windows listview).
>
> <dw-extreme> wrote in message
> > news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com... I am looking
> > for opinions and viewpoints.  I think Powerbuilder has 2
> > distinct and quite different markets. The small to
> > medium sized software market and corporate IT market.
> > In the software market where results are easy to measure
> > on the bottom line I think PB is doing just fine. The
> > productivity, efficiency and swift development process
> > suites that market just fine.  Just keep your customers
> happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in PB based
> > software packages considering the total lack of
> > documentation.  That speaks volume on the capabilities
> > of PB if you just get into it.
> >
> > On the IT market where results are measured quite
> > differently I think PB is having a much more difficult
> >  time. Its more just keep management happy.  And you
> > know management wants to be 'forward' thinking.  You
> > dont want to look like your standing still so there is
> > pressure to go to the latest technology whether or not
> > it is needed or if its the correct solution.  I have
> > recieve so many emails similar to the following one
> which prompted this message.: >
> > "...Unfortunately we'll probably abandon Powerbuilder in
> > favour of VB.NET...
> >
> > ...most developpers I know here never heard about PB or
> > else there knwoledge about it is really outdated.
> >
> > I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an
> > exstensive training) and I still like PB more (much more
> > productive in about everything, far less code to get the
> same result..." >
> > So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore going
> > forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the beginning of
> > a new period of growth rather than decline.
> >
> > Again I would like to hear the opinions of others out
> >  there. Are/were you energized about the future of PB at
> > Techwave or not?
>
>

Ben
0
Ben
8/7/2003 4:07:11 PM
You are then certainly not the norm.  I do hiring.  I am intimately familar
with the skills pool to draw from in my area.  Java developers are more
plentiful than pb developers by a ration of 20 to 1 (or more).

Sure you are using JSP targets.  But would a non-transitioning pb shop?  No
and I don't think its going to far to say any non-transitioning pb should
would *never* use pb for jsps.  Creating features just for transitioning
shops is a one-way road.

As for new projects, I don't know your organization or the scope of the
projects you talk about but certainly you are not the norm.  You may be one
of the rarity shops that are starting new pb work (and I'm sure there are
more people from shops here too, this is a forum for pb people after all,
but 99% of new software development is not pb... and yes thats my own
anecdotal statistic ;)

-Chris

<Ben> wrote in message news:3f32792f.288b.846930886@sybase.com...
> > I think I qualify to fall in your first group (software
> > vendors using pb for their products) but I disagree that
> > its doing well there.  I am a dev manager for a small
> > software vendor and we are moving as fast as possible away
> > from pb.  The biggest concern is shrinking pb developer
> > pool to fill positions from.
> >
>
> My employer has no problems finding new PB developers.
>
> > I don't know a single shop, whether its a software vendor
> > or an IT org or a regular company, that is starting new
> > projects with pb.  PB is just wasting away.
>
> To disagree with the above, my employer is busy starting
> three or
> four NEW PB projects.  PB is here to stay.
>
> > If Sybase
> > wants to revitalize pb they have to do drastic and big
> > things to pb.  Things like pdf generation that came in v9
> > should be footnotes to releases, not major features.  Yeah
> > everybody wants pdf generation (although I think there
> > solution was less than useable) but that is not something
> > thats gonna cause customers to switch to pb.
>
>
> >  And also
> > stop making features that nobody except transitioning pb
> > shops are gonna use. JSP targets??? Who would ever use pb
> > for jsps??
>
> I am using those features.
>
> > You'd have to be smoking crack.  Sure it makes
> > it easier for pb users hosting objects in easerver and
> > calling them from those jsps but thats not going to gain
> > them pb new converts.
> >
>
> I am hosting JSPs in third-party J2EE servers.
>
> > Honestly I don't think Sybase can compete as a tools
> > company.  I don't think they even really have the spirit
> > and gumption for it.  As a pb fan I hate to say it but I
> > don't think there is gonna be any light at the end of the
> > tunnel for pb.  I think Sybase needs to chop out the
> > datawindow and sell it seperately.  They seem to be going
> > that route with .NET datawindow.  They also need to bring
> > back a java datawindow solution, except a jsp solution
> > thats not tied to easerver.  Really I can see it more like
> > a code generator, something that would generate your view
> > (jsp) and model (bean) for execution in any servlet
> > container.  They could write and sell it as an eclipse
> > plugin (eclipse is simply taking over).
> >
>
> I agree with you here. I can claim that I understand and
> admire
> all Sun and Microsoft moves, but I don't make similar claim
> about Sybase even after having used their products for a
> long
> time.
>
> > If all Sybase does is focus on making incremental changes
> > to pb then its course will not change.  Almost everythign
> > that came out in pb 9, imho, was either worthless to most
> > (jsp targets, orcascript) or it was soo late to not be
> > exciting (xml,pdf).
> >
>
> IMHO, JSP targets are wise.
>
> Orcascript?  I know it, but I don't touch it.  It could be
> better if it was written as a PB console app.  Why wrote
> it as a VC++ app?
>
> > PocketPowerBuilder is the only thing thats seems really
> > smart.
> >
> > -Chris
> >
> > p.s.  And they need to do drastic things *while* they
> > incrementally fix the things that have sucked for so long
> > (like the crappy visual appearance of a grid dw vs a
> > standards windows listview).
> >
> > <dw-extreme> wrote in message
> > > news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com... I am looking
> > > for opinions and viewpoints.  I think Powerbuilder has 2
> > > distinct and quite different markets. The small to
> > > medium sized software market and corporate IT market.
> > > In the software market where results are easy to measure
> > > on the bottom line I think PB is doing just fine. The
> > > productivity, efficiency and swift development process
> > > suites that market just fine.  Just keep your customers
> > happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in PB based
> > > software packages considering the total lack of
> > > documentation.  That speaks volume on the capabilities
> > > of PB if you just get into it.
> > >
> > > On the IT market where results are measured quite
> > > differently I think PB is having a much more difficult
> > >  time. Its more just keep management happy.  And you
> > > know management wants to be 'forward' thinking.  You
> > > dont want to look like your standing still so there is
> > > pressure to go to the latest technology whether or not
> > > it is needed or if its the correct solution.  I have
> > > recieve so many emails similar to the following one
> > which prompted this message.: >
> > > "...Unfortunately we'll probably abandon Powerbuilder in
> > > favour of VB.NET...
> > >
> > > ...most developpers I know here never heard about PB or
> > > else there knwoledge about it is really outdated.
> > >
> > > I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an
> > > exstensive training) and I still like PB more (much more
> > > productive in about everything, far less code to get the
> > same result..." >
> > > So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore going
> > > forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the beginning of
> > > a new period of growth rather than decline.
> > >
> > > Again I would like to hear the opinions of others out
> > >  there. Are/were you energized about the future of PB at
> > > Techwave or not?
> >
> >
>
> Ben


0
Chris
8/7/2003 4:19:30 PM
I take that back, 20 to 1 is way to low.  Its more like 50 to 1.

-Chris

"Chris" <schtoo@schtoo.com> wrote in message news:3f327c12$1@forums-1-dub...
> You are then certainly not the norm.  I do hiring.  I am intimately
familar
> with the skills pool to draw from in my area.  Java developers are more
> plentiful than pb developers by a ration of 20 to 1 (or more).
>
> Sure you are using JSP targets.  But would a non-transitioning pb shop?
No
> and I don't think its going to far to say any non-transitioning pb should
> would *never* use pb for jsps.  Creating features just for transitioning
> shops is a one-way road.
>
> As for new projects, I don't know your organization or the scope of the
> projects you talk about but certainly you are not the norm.  You may be
one
> of the rarity shops that are starting new pb work (and I'm sure there are
> more people from shops here too, this is a forum for pb people after all,
> but 99% of new software development is not pb... and yes thats my own
> anecdotal statistic ;)
>
> -Chris
>
> <Ben> wrote in message news:3f32792f.288b.846930886@sybase.com...
> > > I think I qualify to fall in your first group (software
> > > vendors using pb for their products) but I disagree that
> > > its doing well there.  I am a dev manager for a small
> > > software vendor and we are moving as fast as possible away
> > > from pb.  The biggest concern is shrinking pb developer
> > > pool to fill positions from.
> > >
> >
> > My employer has no problems finding new PB developers.
> >
> > > I don't know a single shop, whether its a software vendor
> > > or an IT org or a regular company, that is starting new
> > > projects with pb.  PB is just wasting away.
> >
> > To disagree with the above, my employer is busy starting
> > three or
> > four NEW PB projects.  PB is here to stay.
> >
> > > If Sybase
> > > wants to revitalize pb they have to do drastic and big
> > > things to pb.  Things like pdf generation that came in v9
> > > should be footnotes to releases, not major features.  Yeah
> > > everybody wants pdf generation (although I think there
> > > solution was less than useable) but that is not something
> > > thats gonna cause customers to switch to pb.
> >
> >
> > >  And also
> > > stop making features that nobody except transitioning pb
> > > shops are gonna use. JSP targets??? Who would ever use pb
> > > for jsps??
> >
> > I am using those features.
> >
> > > You'd have to be smoking crack.  Sure it makes
> > > it easier for pb users hosting objects in easerver and
> > > calling them from those jsps but thats not going to gain
> > > them pb new converts.
> > >
> >
> > I am hosting JSPs in third-party J2EE servers.
> >
> > > Honestly I don't think Sybase can compete as a tools
> > > company.  I don't think they even really have the spirit
> > > and gumption for it.  As a pb fan I hate to say it but I
> > > don't think there is gonna be any light at the end of the
> > > tunnel for pb.  I think Sybase needs to chop out the
> > > datawindow and sell it seperately.  They seem to be going
> > > that route with .NET datawindow.  They also need to bring
> > > back a java datawindow solution, except a jsp solution
> > > thats not tied to easerver.  Really I can see it more like
> > > a code generator, something that would generate your view
> > > (jsp) and model (bean) for execution in any servlet
> > > container.  They could write and sell it as an eclipse
> > > plugin (eclipse is simply taking over).
> > >
> >
> > I agree with you here. I can claim that I understand and
> > admire
> > all Sun and Microsoft moves, but I don't make similar claim
> > about Sybase even after having used their products for a
> > long
> > time.
> >
> > > If all Sybase does is focus on making incremental changes
> > > to pb then its course will not change.  Almost everythign
> > > that came out in pb 9, imho, was either worthless to most
> > > (jsp targets, orcascript) or it was soo late to not be
> > > exciting (xml,pdf).
> > >
> >
> > IMHO, JSP targets are wise.
> >
> > Orcascript?  I know it, but I don't touch it.  It could be
> > better if it was written as a PB console app.  Why wrote
> > it as a VC++ app?
> >
> > > PocketPowerBuilder is the only thing thats seems really
> > > smart.
> > >
> > > -Chris
> > >
> > > p.s.  And they need to do drastic things *while* they
> > > incrementally fix the things that have sucked for so long
> > > (like the crappy visual appearance of a grid dw vs a
> > > standards windows listview).
> > >
> > > <dw-extreme> wrote in message
> > > > news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com... I am looking
> > > > for opinions and viewpoints.  I think Powerbuilder has 2
> > > > distinct and quite different markets. The small to
> > > > medium sized software market and corporate IT market.
> > > > In the software market where results are easy to measure
> > > > on the bottom line I think PB is doing just fine. The
> > > > productivity, efficiency and swift development process
> > > > suites that market just fine.  Just keep your customers
> > > happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in PB based
> > > > software packages considering the total lack of
> > > > documentation.  That speaks volume on the capabilities
> > > > of PB if you just get into it.
> > > >
> > > > On the IT market where results are measured quite
> > > > differently I think PB is having a much more difficult
> > > >  time. Its more just keep management happy.  And you
> > > > know management wants to be 'forward' thinking.  You
> > > > dont want to look like your standing still so there is
> > > > pressure to go to the latest technology whether or not
> > > > it is needed or if its the correct solution.  I have
> > > > recieve so many emails similar to the following one
> > > which prompted this message.: >
> > > > "...Unfortunately we'll probably abandon Powerbuilder in
> > > > favour of VB.NET...
> > > >
> > > > ...most developpers I know here never heard about PB or
> > > > else there knwoledge about it is really outdated.
> > > >
> > > > I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an
> > > > exstensive training) and I still like PB more (much more
> > > > productive in about everything, far less code to get the
> > > same result..." >
> > > > So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore going
> > > > forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the beginning of
> > > > a new period of growth rather than decline.
> > > >
> > > > Again I would like to hear the opinions of others out
> > > >  there. Are/were you energized about the future of PB at
> > > > Techwave or not?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Ben
>
>


0
Chris
8/7/2003 4:22:49 PM
I guess that makes sense, as it would take 50 Java programmers to do what
one PB programmer can do in the same time ;-)

"Chris" <schtoo@schtoo.com> wrote in message news:3f327cd9@forums-1-dub...
I take that back, 20 to 1 is way to low.  Its more like 50 to 1.

-Chris

"Chris" <schtoo@schtoo.com> wrote in message news:3f327c12$1@forums-1-dub...
> You are then certainly not the norm.  I do hiring.  I am intimately
familar
> with the skills pool to draw from in my area.  Java developers are more
> plentiful than pb developers by a ration of 20 to 1 (or more).
>
> Sure you are using JSP targets.  But would a non-transitioning pb shop?
No
> and I don't think its going to far to say any non-transitioning pb should
> would *never* use pb for jsps.  Creating features just for transitioning
> shops is a one-way road.
>
> As for new projects, I don't know your organization or the scope of the
> projects you talk about but certainly you are not the norm.  You may be
one
> of the rarity shops that are starting new pb work (and I'm sure there are
> more people from shops here too, this is a forum for pb people after all,
> but 99% of new software development is not pb... and yes thats my own
> anecdotal statistic ;)
>
> -Chris
>
> <Ben> wrote in message news:3f32792f.288b.846930886@sybase.com...
> > > I think I qualify to fall in your first group (software
> > > vendors using pb for their products) but I disagree that
> > > its doing well there.  I am a dev manager for a small
> > > software vendor and we are moving as fast as possible away
> > > from pb.  The biggest concern is shrinking pb developer
> > > pool to fill positions from.
> > >
> >
> > My employer has no problems finding new PB developers.
> >
> > > I don't know a single shop, whether its a software vendor
> > > or an IT org or a regular company, that is starting new
> > > projects with pb.  PB is just wasting away.
> >
> > To disagree with the above, my employer is busy starting
> > three or
> > four NEW PB projects.  PB is here to stay.
> >
> > > If Sybase
> > > wants to revitalize pb they have to do drastic and big
> > > things to pb.  Things like pdf generation that came in v9
> > > should be footnotes to releases, not major features.  Yeah
> > > everybody wants pdf generation (although I think there
> > > solution was less than useable) but that is not something
> > > thats gonna cause customers to switch to pb.
> >
> >
> > >  And also
> > > stop making features that nobody except transitioning pb
> > > shops are gonna use. JSP targets??? Who would ever use pb
> > > for jsps??
> >
> > I am using those features.
> >
> > > You'd have to be smoking crack.  Sure it makes
> > > it easier for pb users hosting objects in easerver and
> > > calling them from those jsps but thats not going to gain
> > > them pb new converts.
> > >
> >
> > I am hosting JSPs in third-party J2EE servers.
> >
> > > Honestly I don't think Sybase can compete as a tools
> > > company.  I don't think they even really have the spirit
> > > and gumption for it.  As a pb fan I hate to say it but I
> > > don't think there is gonna be any light at the end of the
> > > tunnel for pb.  I think Sybase needs to chop out the
> > > datawindow and sell it seperately.  They seem to be going
> > > that route with .NET datawindow.  They also need to bring
> > > back a java datawindow solution, except a jsp solution
> > > thats not tied to easerver.  Really I can see it more like
> > > a code generator, something that would generate your view
> > > (jsp) and model (bean) for execution in any servlet
> > > container.  They could write and sell it as an eclipse
> > > plugin (eclipse is simply taking over).
> > >
> >
> > I agree with you here. I can claim that I understand and
> > admire
> > all Sun and Microsoft moves, but I don't make similar claim
> > about Sybase even after having used their products for a
> > long
> > time.
> >
> > > If all Sybase does is focus on making incremental changes
> > > to pb then its course will not change.  Almost everythign
> > > that came out in pb 9, imho, was either worthless to most
> > > (jsp targets, orcascript) or it was soo late to not be
> > > exciting (xml,pdf).
> > >
> >
> > IMHO, JSP targets are wise.
> >
> > Orcascript?  I know it, but I don't touch it.  It could be
> > better if it was written as a PB console app.  Why wrote
> > it as a VC++ app?
> >
> > > PocketPowerBuilder is the only thing thats seems really
> > > smart.
> > >
> > > -Chris
> > >
> > > p.s.  And they need to do drastic things *while* they
> > > incrementally fix the things that have sucked for so long
> > > (like the crappy visual appearance of a grid dw vs a
> > > standards windows listview).
> > >
> > > <dw-extreme> wrote in message
> > > > news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com... I am looking
> > > > for opinions and viewpoints.  I think Powerbuilder has 2
> > > > distinct and quite different markets. The small to
> > > > medium sized software market and corporate IT market.
> > > > In the software market where results are easy to measure
> > > > on the bottom line I think PB is doing just fine. The
> > > > productivity, efficiency and swift development process
> > > > suites that market just fine.  Just keep your customers
> > > happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in PB based
> > > > software packages considering the total lack of
> > > > documentation.  That speaks volume on the capabilities
> > > > of PB if you just get into it.
> > > >
> > > > On the IT market where results are measured quite
> > > > differently I think PB is having a much more difficult
> > > >  time. Its more just keep management happy.  And you
> > > > know management wants to be 'forward' thinking.  You
> > > > dont want to look like your standing still so there is
> > > > pressure to go to the latest technology whether or not
> > > > it is needed or if its the correct solution.  I have
> > > > recieve so many emails similar to the following one
> > > which prompted this message.: >
> > > > "...Unfortunately we'll probably abandon Powerbuilder in
> > > > favour of VB.NET...
> > > >
> > > > ...most developpers I know here never heard about PB or
> > > > else there knwoledge about it is really outdated.
> > > >
> > > > I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an
> > > > exstensive training) and I still like PB more (much more
> > > > productive in about everything, far less code to get the
> > > same result..." >
> > > > So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore going
> > > > forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the beginning of
> > > > a new period of growth rather than decline.
> > > >
> > > > Again I would like to hear the opinions of others out
> > > >  there. Are/were you energized about the future of PB at
> > > > Techwave or not?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Ben
>
>



0
Russ
8/7/2003 5:27:49 PM
Dude - you need to relax a bit.

There is no shortage of PB developers in this area.  Perhaps you simply need
to explore other means of attracting resumes.  When we hire additional
PowerBuilder developers (which we do slowly add to our PB development
team) - the problem is not getting enough resumes - the problem is too many
resumes.  We get more resumes than we could realistically have time for
interviews for everybody.  So, we sort through the resumes and only choose
to give interviews to those who 'appear' to be the most qualified on paper.
Then, the people who survive the interview process - we give a small (and
hopefully trivial) programming project and have them sit down at a computer
and do some programming.  Of the ones who survive that - we than have a pool
of people we can start thinking of a job offer and see who we can get.

PB is a great product.

Chop out the datawindow?  Probably not the best business decision Sybase
could make...

Tim.


"Chris" <schtoo@schtoo.com> wrote in message news:3f32743b$1@forums-1-dub...
> I think I qualify to fall in your first group (software vendors using pb
for
> their products) but I disagree that its doing well there.  I am a dev
> manager for a small software vendor and we are moving as fast as possible
> away from pb.  The biggest concern is shrinking pb developer pool to fill
> positions from.
>
> I don't know a single shop, whether its a software vendor or an IT org or
a
> regular company, that is starting new projects with pb.  PB is just
wasting
> away.  If Sybase wants to revitalize pb they have to do drastic and big
> things to pb.  Things like pdf generation that came in v9 should be
> footnotes to releases, not major features.  Yeah everybody wants pdf
> generation (although I think there solution was less than useable) but
that
> is not something thats gonna cause customers to switch to pb.  And also
stop
> making features that nobody except transitioning pb shops are gonna use.
> JSP targets??? Who would ever use pb for jsps??  You'd have to be smoking
> crack.  Sure it makes it easier for pb users hosting objects in easerver
and
> calling them from those jsps but thats not going to gain them pb new
> converts.
>
> Honestly I don't think Sybase can compete as a tools company.  I don't
think
> they even really have the spirit and gumption for it.  As a pb fan I hate
to
> say it but I don't think there is gonna be any light at the end of the
> tunnel for pb.  I think Sybase needs to chop out the datawindow and sell
it
> seperately.  They seem to be going that route with .NET datawindow.  They
> also need to bring back a java datawindow solution, except a jsp solution
> thats not tied to easerver.  Really I can see it more like a code
generator,
> something that would generate your view (jsp) and model (bean) for
execution
> in any servlet container.  They could write and sell it as an eclipse
plugin
> (eclipse is simply taking over).
>
> If all Sybase does is focus on making incremental changes to pb then its
> course will not change.  Almost everythign that came out in pb 9, imho,
was
> either worthless to most (jsp targets, orcascript) or it was soo late to
not
> be exciting (xml,pdf).
>
> PocketPowerBuilder is the only thing thats seems really smart.
>
> -Chris
>
> p.s.  And they need to do drastic things *while* they incrementally fix
the
> things that have sucked for so long (like the crappy visual appearance of
a
> grid dw vs a standards windows listview).
>
> <dw-extreme> wrote in message news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com...
> > I am looking for opinions and viewpoints.  I think
> > Powerbuilder has 2 distinct and quite different markets.
> > The small to medium sized software market and corporate IT
> > market.  In the software market where results are easy to
> > measure on the bottom line I think PB is doing just fine.
> > The productivity, efficiency and swift development process
> > suites that market just fine.  Just keep your customers
> > happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in PB based software
> > packages considering the total lack of documentation.  That
> > speaks volume on the capabilities of PB if you just get into
> > it.
> >
> > On the IT market where results are measured quite
> > differently I think PB is having a much more difficult time.
> >  Its more just keep management happy.  And you know
> > management wants to be 'forward' thinking.  You dont want to
> > look like your standing still so there is pressure to go to
> > the latest technology whether or not it is needed or if its
> > the correct solution.  I have recieve so many emails similar
> > to the following one which prompted this message.:
> >
> > "...Unfortunately we'll probably abandon Powerbuilder in
> > favour of VB.NET...
> >
> > ...most developpers I know here never heard about PB or else
> > there knwoledge about it is really outdated.
> >
> > I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an exstensive
> > training) and I still like PB more (much more productive in
> > about everything, far less code to get the same result..."
> >
> > So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore going
> > forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the beginning of a
> > new period of growth rather than decline.
> >
> > Again I would like to hear the opinions of others out there.
> >  Are/were you energized about the future of PB at Techwave
> > or not?
>
>


0
Timothy
8/7/2003 5:30:12 PM
Exactly what I was going to say.  Most of the clients I deal
with dont have 50 employees in the whole company.  They cant
afford an army of java coders but they get by quite well
with 3 - 7 very good PB developers.  I will say the
companies I deal with are selling C/S based solutions, so
that obviously changes my perception.  Would I see PB at
hotels.com or Ebay???  Is it the best solution there???  Not
by a long shot.  But I do know of a company that just canned
a $15 million J2EE, struts, EJB blah blah project cuz the
costs where going out of control for the functionality
delivered.

> I guess that makes sense, as it would take 50 Java
> programmers to do what one PB programmer can do in the
> same time ;-)
>
> "Chris" <schtoo@schtoo.com> wrote in message
> news:3f327cd9@forums-1-dub... I take that back, 20 to 1 is
> way to low.  Its more like 50 to 1.
>
> -Chris
>
> "Chris" <schtoo@schtoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:3f327c12$1@forums-1-dub... You are then certainly
> not the norm.  I do hiring.  I am intimately familar
> > with the skills pool to draw from in my area.  Java
> > developers are more plentiful than pb developers by a
> ration of 20 to 1 (or more). >
> > Sure you are using JSP targets.  But would a
> non-transitioning pb shop? No
> > and I don't think its going to far to say any
> > non-transitioning pb should would *never* use pb for
> > jsps.  Creating features just for transitioning shops is
> a one-way road. >
> > As for new projects, I don't know your organization or
> > the scope of the projects you talk about but certainly
> you are not the norm.  You may be one
> > of the rarity shops that are starting new pb work (and
> > I'm sure there are more people from shops here too, this
> > is a forum for pb people after all, but 99% of new
> > software development is not pb... and yes thats my own
> anecdotal statistic ;) >
> > -Chris
> >
> > <Ben> wrote in message
> > > > news:3f32792f.288b.846930886@sybase.com... I think I
> > > > qualify to fall in your first group (software
> > > > vendors using pb for their products) but I disagree
> > > > that its doing well there.  I am a dev manager for a
> small software vendor and we are moving as fast as
> > > > possible away from pb.  The biggest concern is
> > > > shrinking pb developer pool to fill positions from.
> > > >
> > >
> > > My employer has no problems finding new PB developers.
> > >
> > > > I don't know a single shop, whether its a software
> > > > vendor or an IT org or a regular company, that is
> > > > starting new projects with pb.  PB is just wasting
> > away. >
> > > To disagree with the above, my employer is busy
> > > starting three or
> > > four NEW PB projects.  PB is here to stay.
> > >
> > > > If Sybase
> > > > wants to revitalize pb they have to do drastic and
> > > > big things to pb.  Things like pdf generation that
> > > > came in v9 should be footnotes to releases, not
> > > > major features.  Yeah everybody wants pdf generation
> > > > (although I think there solution was less than
> > > > useable) but that is not something thats gonna cause
> > customers to switch to pb. >
> > >
> > > >  And also
> > > > stop making features that nobody except
> > > > transitioning pb shops are gonna use. JSP targets???
> > > > Who would ever use pb for jsps??
> > >
> > > I am using those features.
> > >
> > > > You'd have to be smoking crack.  Sure it makes
> > > > it easier for pb users hosting objects in easerver
> > > > and calling them from those jsps but thats not going
> > > > to gain them pb new converts.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I am hosting JSPs in third-party J2EE servers.
> > >
> > > > Honestly I don't think Sybase can compete as a tools
> > > > company.  I don't think they even really have the
> > > > spirit and gumption for it.  As a pb fan I hate to
> > > > say it but I don't think there is gonna be any light
> > > > at the end of the tunnel for pb.  I think Sybase
> > > > needs to chop out the datawindow and sell it
> > > > seperately.  They seem to be going that route with
> > > > .NET datawindow.  They also need to bring back a
> > > > java datawindow solution, except a jsp solution
> > > > thats not tied to easerver.  Really I can see it
> more like a code generator, something that would generate
> > > > your view (jsp) and model (bean) for execution in
> > > > any servlet container.  They could write and sell it
> > > > as an eclipse plugin (eclipse is simply taking
> > > over). >
> > >
> > > I agree with you here. I can claim that I understand
> > > and admire
> > > all Sun and Microsoft moves, but I don't make similar
> > > claim about Sybase even after having used their
> > > products for a long
> > > time.
> > >
> > > > If all Sybase does is focus on making incremental
> > > > changes to pb then its course will not change.
> > > > Almost everythign that came out in pb 9, imho, was
> > > > either worthless to most (jsp targets, orcascript)
> > > > or it was soo late to not be exciting (xml,pdf).
> > > >
> > >
> > > IMHO, JSP targets are wise.
> > >
> > > Orcascript?  I know it, but I don't touch it.  It
> > > could be better if it was written as a PB console app.
> > >  Why wrote it as a VC++ app?
> > >
> > > > PocketPowerBuilder is the only thing thats seems
> > > > really smart.
> > > >
> > > > -Chris
> > > >
> > > > p.s.  And they need to do drastic things *while*
> > > > they incrementally fix the things that have sucked
> > > > for so long (like the crappy visual appearance of a
> > > > grid dw vs a standards windows listview).
> > > >
> > > > <dw-extreme> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com... I am
> > > > > looking for opinions and viewpoints.  I think
> > > > > Powerbuilder has 2 distinct and quite different
> > > > > markets. The small to medium sized software market
> > > > > and corporate IT market. In the software market
> > > > > where results are easy to measure on the bottom
> > > > > line I think PB is doing just fine. The
> > > > > productivity, efficiency and swift development
> process suites that market just fine.  Just keep your
> > > > customers happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in
> > > > > PB based software packages considering the total
> > > > > lack of documentation.  That speaks volume on the
> > > > > capabilities of PB if you just get into it.
> > > > >
> > > > > On the IT market where results are measured quite
> > > > > differently I think PB is having a much more
> > > > >  difficult time. Its more just keep management
> > > > > happy.  And you know management wants to be
> > > > > 'forward' thinking.  You dont want to look like
> > > > > your standing still so there is pressure to go to
> > > > > the latest technology whether or not it is needed
> > > > > or if its the correct solution.  I have recieve so
> > > > many emails similar to the following one which
> > > > > prompted this message.: > "...Unfortunately we'll
> > > > > probably abandon Powerbuilder in favour of
> > > > VB.NET... >
> > > > > ...most developpers I know here never heard about
> > > > > PB or else there knwoledge about it is really
> > > > outdated. >
> > > > > I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an
> > > > > exstensive training) and I still like PB more
> > > > > (much more productive in about everything, far
> > > > less code to get the same result..." >
> > > > > So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore
> > > > > going forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the
> > > > > beginning of a new period of growth rather than
> > > > decline. >
> > > > > Again I would like to hear the opinions of others
> > > > >  out there. Are/were you energized about the
> > > > > future of PB at Techwave or not?
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Ben
> >
> >
>
>
>
0
dw
8/7/2003 5:51:15 PM
good point...Sybase was really stressing return on investment for awhile. I
remember when PowerSoft had some very basic advertising showing the code
required in various development tools ( Delphi, SQL Windows ... ) to do
simple tasks like retrieve a grid of data.

<dw-extreme> wrote in message news:3f329193.370e.846930886@sybase.com...
> Exactly what I was going to say.  Most of the clients I deal
> with dont have 50 employees in the whole company.  They cant
> afford an army of java coders but they get by quite well
> with 3 - 7 very good PB developers.  I will say the
> companies I deal with are selling C/S based solutions, so
> that obviously changes my perception.  Would I see PB at
> hotels.com or Ebay???  Is it the best solution there???  Not
> by a long shot.  But I do know of a company that just canned
> a $15 million J2EE, struts, EJB blah blah project cuz the
> costs where going out of control for the functionality
> delivered.
>
> > I guess that makes sense, as it would take 50 Java
> > programmers to do what one PB programmer can do in the
> > same time ;-)
> >
> > "Chris" <schtoo@schtoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:3f327cd9@forums-1-dub... I take that back, 20 to 1 is
> > way to low.  Its more like 50 to 1.
> >
> > -Chris
> >
> > "Chris" <schtoo@schtoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3f327c12$1@forums-1-dub... You are then certainly
> > not the norm.  I do hiring.  I am intimately familar
> > > with the skills pool to draw from in my area.  Java
> > > developers are more plentiful than pb developers by a
> > ration of 20 to 1 (or more). >
> > > Sure you are using JSP targets.  But would a
> > non-transitioning pb shop? No
> > > and I don't think its going to far to say any
> > > non-transitioning pb should would *never* use pb for
> > > jsps.  Creating features just for transitioning shops is
> > a one-way road. >
> > > As for new projects, I don't know your organization or
> > > the scope of the projects you talk about but certainly
> > you are not the norm.  You may be one
> > > of the rarity shops that are starting new pb work (and
> > > I'm sure there are more people from shops here too, this
> > > is a forum for pb people after all, but 99% of new
> > > software development is not pb... and yes thats my own
> > anecdotal statistic ;) >
> > > -Chris
> > >
> > > <Ben> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3f32792f.288b.846930886@sybase.com... I think I
> > > > > qualify to fall in your first group (software
> > > > > vendors using pb for their products) but I disagree
> > > > > that its doing well there.  I am a dev manager for a
> > small software vendor and we are moving as fast as
> > > > > possible away from pb.  The biggest concern is
> > > > > shrinking pb developer pool to fill positions from.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > My employer has no problems finding new PB developers.
> > > >
> > > > > I don't know a single shop, whether its a software
> > > > > vendor or an IT org or a regular company, that is
> > > > > starting new projects with pb.  PB is just wasting
> > > away. >
> > > > To disagree with the above, my employer is busy
> > > > starting three or
> > > > four NEW PB projects.  PB is here to stay.
> > > >
> > > > > If Sybase
> > > > > wants to revitalize pb they have to do drastic and
> > > > > big things to pb.  Things like pdf generation that
> > > > > came in v9 should be footnotes to releases, not
> > > > > major features.  Yeah everybody wants pdf generation
> > > > > (although I think there solution was less than
> > > > > useable) but that is not something thats gonna cause
> > > customers to switch to pb. >
> > > >
> > > > >  And also
> > > > > stop making features that nobody except
> > > > > transitioning pb shops are gonna use. JSP targets???
> > > > > Who would ever use pb for jsps??
> > > >
> > > > I am using those features.
> > > >
> > > > > You'd have to be smoking crack.  Sure it makes
> > > > > it easier for pb users hosting objects in easerver
> > > > > and calling them from those jsps but thats not going
> > > > > to gain them pb new converts.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I am hosting JSPs in third-party J2EE servers.
> > > >
> > > > > Honestly I don't think Sybase can compete as a tools
> > > > > company.  I don't think they even really have the
> > > > > spirit and gumption for it.  As a pb fan I hate to
> > > > > say it but I don't think there is gonna be any light
> > > > > at the end of the tunnel for pb.  I think Sybase
> > > > > needs to chop out the datawindow and sell it
> > > > > seperately.  They seem to be going that route with
> > > > > .NET datawindow.  They also need to bring back a
> > > > > java datawindow solution, except a jsp solution
> > > > > thats not tied to easerver.  Really I can see it
> > more like a code generator, something that would generate
> > > > > your view (jsp) and model (bean) for execution in
> > > > > any servlet container.  They could write and sell it
> > > > > as an eclipse plugin (eclipse is simply taking
> > > > over). >
> > > >
> > > > I agree with you here. I can claim that I understand
> > > > and admire
> > > > all Sun and Microsoft moves, but I don't make similar
> > > > claim about Sybase even after having used their
> > > > products for a long
> > > > time.
> > > >
> > > > > If all Sybase does is focus on making incremental
> > > > > changes to pb then its course will not change.
> > > > > Almost everythign that came out in pb 9, imho, was
> > > > > either worthless to most (jsp targets, orcascript)
> > > > > or it was soo late to not be exciting (xml,pdf).
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > IMHO, JSP targets are wise.
> > > >
> > > > Orcascript?  I know it, but I don't touch it.  It
> > > > could be better if it was written as a PB console app.
> > > >  Why wrote it as a VC++ app?
> > > >
> > > > > PocketPowerBuilder is the only thing thats seems
> > > > > really smart.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Chris
> > > > >
> > > > > p.s.  And they need to do drastic things *while*
> > > > > they incrementally fix the things that have sucked
> > > > > for so long (like the crappy visual appearance of a
> > > > > grid dw vs a standards windows listview).
> > > > >
> > > > > <dw-extreme> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com... I am
> > > > > > looking for opinions and viewpoints.  I think
> > > > > > Powerbuilder has 2 distinct and quite different
> > > > > > markets. The small to medium sized software market
> > > > > > and corporate IT market. In the software market
> > > > > > where results are easy to measure on the bottom
> > > > > > line I think PB is doing just fine. The
> > > > > > productivity, efficiency and swift development
> > process suites that market just fine.  Just keep your
> > > > > customers happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in
> > > > > > PB based software packages considering the total
> > > > > > lack of documentation.  That speaks volume on the
> > > > > > capabilities of PB if you just get into it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On the IT market where results are measured quite
> > > > > > differently I think PB is having a much more
> > > > > >  difficult time. Its more just keep management
> > > > > > happy.  And you know management wants to be
> > > > > > 'forward' thinking.  You dont want to look like
> > > > > > your standing still so there is pressure to go to
> > > > > > the latest technology whether or not it is needed
> > > > > > or if its the correct solution.  I have recieve so
> > > > > many emails similar to the following one which
> > > > > > prompted this message.: > "...Unfortunately we'll
> > > > > > probably abandon Powerbuilder in favour of
> > > > > VB.NET... >
> > > > > > ...most developpers I know here never heard about
> > > > > > PB or else there knwoledge about it is really
> > > > > outdated. >
> > > > > > I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an
> > > > > > exstensive training) and I still like PB more
> > > > > > (much more productive in about everything, far
> > > > > less code to get the same result..." >
> > > > > > So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore
> > > > > > going forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the
> > > > > > beginning of a new period of growth rather than
> > > > > decline. >
> > > > > > Again I would like to hear the opinions of others
> > > > > >  out there. Are/were you energized about the
> > > > > > future of PB at Techwave or not?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ben
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >


0
PB_Developer
8/7/2003 6:28:51 PM
WS, I am not sure you actually reading this sub-thread :-)
The guy wonders why EAServer does not show up in comparisons
with ASP.NET/IIS...

As far as integration of PowerBuilder with .NET (which is a
completely different side of the equation) I am all for it.
PowerBuilder IS a Windows product.

> Gone are the days people think web =3d java.
> As PB basically a windows based product, the more the
> features of MS it supports, the better is its survival and
> usage from windows based developers.
> the more .NET integration in the future, more buyers for
> it.
>
> "Philip Salgannik" <philemaxNOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote in
> message news:3f31db15$1@forums-1-dub...
> > And most IT shops anb big companies I am aware of  (are
> > is a wrong tense) leaned towards J2EE.
> >
> > It is rather strange to compare apples and oranges.
> > EAServer is clearly a J2EE solution, with some
> > proprietary twists, that if used appropriately, leave
> > RADity of any other tool (including .NET based) far
> behind >
> > pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-))
> > Philip Salgannik
> >
> > "PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> wrote in
> > message news:3f31c18a$1@forums-1-dub...
> > >
> > > I'm not sure I understand your point, Phil. Your
> > noting the Java side of the
> > > equation. The .NET solution offers the same result. My
> clients can choose
> > to
> > > publish proprietary components, beans or use .NET
> > > remoting/Web Services. These days most IT shops I am
> > working with are leaning toward .NET. The .NET
> > > equation will be furthered with the release of VS.NET
> > > 2004 and the next version of SQL Server ( Yukon ).
> > >
> > > "Philip Salgannik" <philemaxNOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote
> > > in message news:3f31aa69$1@forums-1-dub...
> > > > How can it be viewed in comparison to ASP.NET/IIS?
> > > >
> > > > If it is compared, the to WebSphere, WebLogic, etc.
> > > >
> > > > pbm_thisusuallydoesnothelp:-))
> > > > Philip Salgannik
> > > >
> > > > "PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> wrote in
> > > > message news:3f317017@forums-1-dub...
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree that it all depends on need and don't
> > debate the learning curve
> > > > for
> > > > > each choice. One of the main issues I have seen is
> > that EASERVER is not
> > > > > viewed ( or even heard of ) in comparison to
> > > > ASP.NET/IIS. Some of my clients
> > > > > view EASERVER in much the same way they might view
> > > something like Borland
> > > > > InterBase. It can be a functional solution, but it
> may not be optimal,
> > > > > especially if your a Microsoft server shop trying
> to leverage what you
> > > > > already own.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Rahul Jain" <Rahul.Jain@cynergysystems.com> wrote
> > > > > in message news:3f31664c$1@forums-1-dub...
> > > > > > Talking about learning curve... how much time do
> you think you will
> > > take
> > > > > in
> > > > > > learning .NET with some language (C#)? Will it
> > > > be any lesser than learning
> > > > > > how to deploy components to web from PB
> > > (assuming you already know PB)?
> > > > In
> > > > > > case you are not aware - EAServer comes in a
> small business edition
> > > > which
> > > > > is
> > > > > > around 3K - all depends on your need.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Rahul
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Alain Bourque"
> > > > > > <nospamlogiqueciels@sympatico.ca> wrote in
> > > > > > > message news:3f315caa$1@forums-1-dub... Right
> > > > > > now, I am in period where I have to decid where
> > > > > > > to go... > I want to develop an application
> that will have client/server and
> > > web
> > > > > > > functionnality.  In a few words, I want an
> application that I will
> > > be
> > > > > able
> > > > > > > to sell on a client/server side or a web side.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And I want to try not using EAServer because
> it is very expensive
> > > ...
> > > > in
> > > > > > > time (learing curve) and money ...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> a
> =e9crit dans le message
> > > > news:
> > > > > > > 3f315609$1@forums-1-dub...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have been programming in PB for close to
> > 10 years. In that time,
> > > I
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > written numerous small to very large scale
> > applications utilizing
> > > > most
> > > > > > > > features of PowerBuilder. For client/server
> development this was
> > > > > always
> > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > equitable proposition for a varied client
> > > > base...financially speaking.
> > > > > > > When
> > > > > > > > web development became a requirement, I
> started questioning the
> > > > > > > > reasonableness of a PB/EASERVER solution.
> > > Technically, I liked many
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > features; however, it simply wasn't cost
> > > > effective for many companies
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > > terms of training, support and software
> procurement. Also, many
> > > > > clients
> > > > > > > > reflected the attitude PB was a legacy tool.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In 2002, I embarked on an effort to learn
> Visual Studio.NET and
> > > > focus
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > web
> > > > > > > > development with C#.  My first impressions
> > were very positive with
> > > > > > respect
> > > > > > > > to the .NET framework, C# and VS.NET IDE.
> After trying to write
> > > some
> > > > > > > > real-life applications, I found myself
> > > > > wishing for a better development
> > > > > > > tool
> > > > > > > > to sit on top of .NET architecture. My main
> > complaint was database
> > > > > > access
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > VS.NET. All I wanted was the datawindow.
> > > Instead, I got the datagrid
> > > > > and
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > few other controls that are nice for display
> , but IMHO not very
> > > good
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > > transactional applications. My fundamental
> > > > > hope is that Sybase releases
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > solid Datawindow.NET and Datastore.NET. The
> > > > > > ability to publish non-visual
> > > > > > > > objects to .NET web services or assembly
> > > > > would also be a great addition.
> > > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > told the next version of VS.NET ( Whidbey ),
> will feature a much
> > > > > better
> > > > > > > RAD
> > > > > > > > data access methodology. Time will tell. I
> hope Sybase can make
> > > some
> > > > > > > > progress in the .NET market prior to that
> > > release. I believe seeing
> > > > > > > Sybase's
> > > > > > > > name linked to .NET would benefit
> > > PowerBuilder's reputation in most
> > > > IT
> > > > > > > > departments.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Aside from technical improvements, I think
> Sybase also needs to
> > > > foster
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > developer community. I believe they have
> > already made progress in
> > > > this
> > > > > > > area
> > > > > > > > with SDN, CodeXchange and the hiring of PB
> > evangelists. I do have
> > > to
> > > > > > > admit,
> > > > > > > > I was really blown away at the volume of
> > > .NET information, examples
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > open
> > > > > > > > source projects out there; for example,
> www.asp.net has **new**
> > > > > content
> > > > > > > > everyday. Also Microsoft tends to have a
> > very specific roadmap for
> > > > > > VS.NET
> > > > > > > > over the next few years ( real or not ).
> > They have been very good
> > > at
> > > > > > > keeping
> > > > > > > > their developers in the loop and giving them
> > > access to new features
> > > > > > > > incrementally.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Most of my impressions here are based on web
> > > development. I believe
> > > > > > > > PowerBuilder is still much more
> > > > > efficient/productive as a client/server
> > > > > > > > tool. I guess my hope is that Sybase will
> bring the best of what
> > > > they
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > to offer to web application development in
> > > > > > > .NET. >
> > > > > > > > <dw-extreme> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com...
> > > > > > > > > I am looking for opinions and viewpoints.
> > > > > > > > > I think Powerbuilder has 2 distinct and
> > > > > > > > > quite different markets. The small to
> > > > > > > > > medium sized software market and corporate
> IT market.  In the software market where results are easy
> > > > > > > > > to measure on the bottom line I think PB
> > > > > > > > > is doing just fine. The productivity,
> > > > > > > > > efficiency and swift development process
> > > > > > > > > suites that market just fine.  Just keep
> your customers happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in
> > > > > > > > > PB based software packages considering the
> > > > > > > > > total lack of documentation.  That speaks
> > > > > > > > > volume on the capabilities of PB if you
> > > > > > > > just get into it. >
> > > > > > > > > On the IT market where results are
> > > > > > > > > measured quite differently I think PB is
> > > > > > > > >  having a much more difficult time. Its
> > > > > > > > > more just keep management happy.  And you
> know management wants to be 'forward' thinking.  You dont
> > > > > > > > > want to look like your standing still so
> > > > > > > > > there is pressure to go to the latest
> > > > > > > > > technology whether or not it is needed or
> if its the correct solution.  I have recieve so many
> > > > > > > > > emails similar to the following one which
> > > > > > > > prompted this message.: >
> > > > > > > > > "...Unfortunately we'll probably abandon
> > > > > > > > > Powerbuilder in favour of VB.NET...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ...most developpers I know here never
> > > > > > > > > heard about PB or else there knwoledge
> > > > > > > > about it is really outdated. >
> > > > > > > > > I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just
> > > > > > > > > had an exstensive training) and I still
> > > > > > > > > like PB more (much more productive in
> > > > > > > > about everything, far less code to get the
> > > > > > > > > same result..." > So Sybase needs to first
> > > > > > > > > stop the bleeding bofore going forward.  I
> > > > > > > > > certainly hope Techwave is the beginning
> > > > > > > > of a new period of growth rather than
> > > > > > > > > decline. > Again I would like to hear the
> > > > > > > > >  opinions of others out there. Are/were
> > > > > > > > > you energized about the future of PB at
> > > > > > > Techwave or not? >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
0
Philip
8/7/2003 7:07:44 PM
So. It was the same picture several years ago with PB
candidates.
What difference does it make.
Then you could find 2 decent PB developers out of 50
candidates, now you have the same "talent" pool, half of
which ended up as Java "developers" from the 48 you rejected
couple of years ago for PB. I can imagine what kind of Java
code they write...

> I take that back, 20 to 1 is way to low.  Its more like 50
> to 1.
>
> -Chris
0
Philip
8/7/2003 7:13:34 PM
Mismanaged projects are mismanaged projects.  It usually has very little to
do with the tool used.

I'm not trying to argue that PB sucks.  I don't think that.  If I really
thought that I wouldn't have invested so much time in the tool myself.  But
I don't believe that the current course that Sybase seems to be on with
regards to PB (i.e. incremental updates=pdf, adding features after they're
long overdue=xml,adding features just for current PB-ers=jsp) is not going
to increase PB's market share.  Its just going to help quicken its demise.

Maybe demise isn't the right description.  It will quicken PB's
niche-ification.  And most IT managers are not in the habit of using niche
languages as the foundation for major products, *regardless of technical
merits*.  So where does PB go from there?

-Chris


<dw-extreme> wrote in message news:3f329193.370e.846930886@sybase.com...
> Exactly what I was going to say.  Most of the clients I deal
> with dont have 50 employees in the whole company.  They cant
> afford an army of java coders but they get by quite well
> with 3 - 7 very good PB developers.  I will say the
> companies I deal with are selling C/S based solutions, so
> that obviously changes my perception.  Would I see PB at
> hotels.com or Ebay???  Is it the best solution there???  Not
> by a long shot.  But I do know of a company that just canned
> a $15 million J2EE, struts, EJB blah blah project cuz the
> costs where going out of control for the functionality
> delivered.
>
> > I guess that makes sense, as it would take 50 Java
> > programmers to do what one PB programmer can do in the
> > same time ;-)
> >
> > "Chris" <schtoo@schtoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:3f327cd9@forums-1-dub... I take that back, 20 to 1 is
> > way to low.  Its more like 50 to 1.
> >
> > -Chris
> >
> > "Chris" <schtoo@schtoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3f327c12$1@forums-1-dub... You are then certainly
> > not the norm.  I do hiring.  I am intimately familar
> > > with the skills pool to draw from in my area.  Java
> > > developers are more plentiful than pb developers by a
> > ration of 20 to 1 (or more). >
> > > Sure you are using JSP targets.  But would a
> > non-transitioning pb shop? No
> > > and I don't think its going to far to say any
> > > non-transitioning pb should would *never* use pb for
> > > jsps.  Creating features just for transitioning shops is
> > a one-way road. >
> > > As for new projects, I don't know your organization or
> > > the scope of the projects you talk about but certainly
> > you are not the norm.  You may be one
> > > of the rarity shops that are starting new pb work (and
> > > I'm sure there are more people from shops here too, this
> > > is a forum for pb people after all, but 99% of new
> > > software development is not pb... and yes thats my own
> > anecdotal statistic ;) >
> > > -Chris
> > >
> > > <Ben> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3f32792f.288b.846930886@sybase.com... I think I
> > > > > qualify to fall in your first group (software
> > > > > vendors using pb for their products) but I disagree
> > > > > that its doing well there.  I am a dev manager for a
> > small software vendor and we are moving as fast as
> > > > > possible away from pb.  The biggest concern is
> > > > > shrinking pb developer pool to fill positions from.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > My employer has no problems finding new PB developers.
> > > >
> > > > > I don't know a single shop, whether its a software
> > > > > vendor or an IT org or a regular company, that is
> > > > > starting new projects with pb.  PB is just wasting
> > > away. >
> > > > To disagree with the above, my employer is busy
> > > > starting three or
> > > > four NEW PB projects.  PB is here to stay.
> > > >
> > > > > If Sybase
> > > > > wants to revitalize pb they have to do drastic and
> > > > > big things to pb.  Things like pdf generation that
> > > > > came in v9 should be footnotes to releases, not
> > > > > major features.  Yeah everybody wants pdf generation
> > > > > (although I think there solution was less than
> > > > > useable) but that is not something thats gonna cause
> > > customers to switch to pb. >
> > > >
> > > > >  And also
> > > > > stop making features that nobody except
> > > > > transitioning pb shops are gonna use. JSP targets???
> > > > > Who would ever use pb for jsps??
> > > >
> > > > I am using those features.
> > > >
> > > > > You'd have to be smoking crack.  Sure it makes
> > > > > it easier for pb users hosting objects in easerver
> > > > > and calling them from those jsps but thats not going
> > > > > to gain them pb new converts.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I am hosting JSPs in third-party J2EE servers.
> > > >
> > > > > Honestly I don't think Sybase can compete as a tools
> > > > > company.  I don't think they even really have the
> > > > > spirit and gumption for it.  As a pb fan I hate to
> > > > > say it but I don't think there is gonna be any light
> > > > > at the end of the tunnel for pb.  I think Sybase
> > > > > needs to chop out the datawindow and sell it
> > > > > seperately.  They seem to be going that route with
> > > > > .NET datawindow.  They also need to bring back a
> > > > > java datawindow solution, except a jsp solution
> > > > > thats not tied to easerver.  Really I can see it
> > more like a code generator, something that would generate
> > > > > your view (jsp) and model (bean) for execution in
> > > > > any servlet container.  They could write and sell it
> > > > > as an eclipse plugin (eclipse is simply taking
> > > > over). >
> > > >
> > > > I agree with you here. I can claim that I understand
> > > > and admire
> > > > all Sun and Microsoft moves, but I don't make similar
> > > > claim about Sybase even after having used their
> > > > products for a long
> > > > time.
> > > >
> > > > > If all Sybase does is focus on making incremental
> > > > > changes to pb then its course will not change.
> > > > > Almost everythign that came out in pb 9, imho, was
> > > > > either worthless to most (jsp targets, orcascript)
> > > > > or it was soo late to not be exciting (xml,pdf).
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > IMHO, JSP targets are wise.
> > > >
> > > > Orcascript?  I know it, but I don't touch it.  It
> > > > could be better if it was written as a PB console app.
> > > >  Why wrote it as a VC++ app?
> > > >
> > > > > PocketPowerBuilder is the only thing thats seems
> > > > > really smart.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Chris
> > > > >
> > > > > p.s.  And they need to do drastic things *while*
> > > > > they incrementally fix the things that have sucked
> > > > > for so long (like the crappy visual appearance of a
> > > > > grid dw vs a standards windows listview).
> > > > >
> > > > > <dw-extreme> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com... I am
> > > > > > looking for opinions and viewpoints.  I think
> > > > > > Powerbuilder has 2 distinct and quite different
> > > > > > markets. The small to medium sized software market
> > > > > > and corporate IT market. In the software market
> > > > > > where results are easy to measure on the bottom
> > > > > > line I think PB is doing just fine. The
> > > > > > productivity, efficiency and swift development
> > process suites that market just fine.  Just keep your
> > > > > customers happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in
> > > > > > PB based software packages considering the total
> > > > > > lack of documentation.  That speaks volume on the
> > > > > > capabilities of PB if you just get into it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On the IT market where results are measured quite
> > > > > > differently I think PB is having a much more
> > > > > >  difficult time. Its more just keep management
> > > > > > happy.  And you know management wants to be
> > > > > > 'forward' thinking.  You dont want to look like
> > > > > > your standing still so there is pressure to go to
> > > > > > the latest technology whether or not it is needed
> > > > > > or if its the correct solution.  I have recieve so
> > > > > many emails similar to the following one which
> > > > > > prompted this message.: > "...Unfortunately we'll
> > > > > > probably abandon Powerbuilder in favour of
> > > > > VB.NET... >
> > > > > > ...most developpers I know here never heard about
> > > > > > PB or else there knwoledge about it is really
> > > > > outdated. >
> > > > > > I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an
> > > > > > exstensive training) and I still like PB more
> > > > > > (much more productive in about everything, far
> > > > > less code to get the same result..." >
> > > > > > So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore
> > > > > > going forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the
> > > > > > beginning of a new period of growth rather than
> > > > > decline. >
> > > > > > Again I would like to hear the opinions of others
> > > > > >  out there. Are/were you energized about the
> > > > > > future of PB at Techwave or not?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ben
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >


0
Chris
8/7/2003 7:22:08 PM
Sure, more of the java candidates aren't worth hiring.  The glut of fluff
moves with tech.  But you can also argue that most of the seasoned and
generally more potent programmers saw the winds blowing and changed to Java
long ago too.  So that also affects the prospects...

How many really good programmers (outside of the rarities found on these
forums) are working in PB and look for PB jobs?

-Chris

ps. To those about to flame me, I am not talking about you.  If you read
these forums you are most likely a PB diehard and a good programmer.  You
are the rarities.

<Philip Salgannik> wrote in message
news:3f32a4de.4384.846930886@sybase.com...
> So. It was the same picture several years ago with PB
> candidates.
> What difference does it make.
> Then you could find 2 decent PB developers out of 50
> candidates, now you have the same "talent" pool, half of
> which ended up as Java "developers" from the 48 you rejected
> couple of years ago for PB. I can imagine what kind of Java
> code they write...
>
> > I take that back, 20 to 1 is way to low.  Its more like 50
> > to 1.
> >
> > -Chris


0
Chris
8/7/2003 7:32:58 PM
Well, I can tell you one thing.
I know a lot of people in NYC in programming business.
Everybody who is looking for Java work, VB/ASP work, etc. -
is NOT working

Everybody who IS working is doing PB right now :-)

> Sure, more of the java candidates aren't worth hiring.
> The glut of fluff moves with tech.  But you can also argue
> that most of the seasoned and generally more potent
> programmers saw the winds blowing and changed to Java long
> ago too.  So that also affects the prospects...
>
> How many really good programmers (outside of the rarities
> found on these forums) are working in PB and look for PB
> jobs?
>
> -Chris
>
> ps. To those about to flame me, I am not talking about
> you.  If you read these forums you are most likely a PB
> diehard and a good programmer.  You are the rarities.
>
> <Philip Salgannik> wrote in message
> news:3f32a4de.4384.846930886@sybase.com...
> > So. It was the same picture several years ago with PB
> > candidates.
> > What difference does it make.
> > Then you could find 2 decent PB developers out of 50
> > candidates, now you have the same "talent" pool, half of
> > which ended up as Java "developers" from the 48 you
> > rejected couple of years ago for PB. I can imagine what
> > kind of Java code they write...
> >
> > > I take that back, 20 to 1 is way to low.  Its more
> > > like 50 to 1.
> > >
> > > -Chris
>
>
0
Philip
8/7/2003 7:36:57 PM
We're really having a hard time trying to find a PB programmer here in the
Quebec city area... even in the consulting business.


<Philip Salgannik> a �crit dans le message de news:
3f32aa59.4718.846930886@sybase.com...
> Well, I can tell you one thing.
> I know a lot of people in NYC in programming business.
> Everybody who is looking for Java work, VB/ASP work, etc. -
> is NOT working
>
> Everybody who IS working is doing PB right now :-)
>
> > Sure, more of the java candidates aren't worth hiring.
> > The glut of fluff moves with tech.  But you can also argue
> > that most of the seasoned and generally more potent
> > programmers saw the winds blowing and changed to Java long
> > ago too.  So that also affects the prospects...
> >
> > How many really good programmers (outside of the rarities
> > found on these forums) are working in PB and look for PB
> > jobs?
> >
> > -Chris
> >
> > ps. To those about to flame me, I am not talking about
> > you.  If you read these forums you are most likely a PB
> > diehard and a good programmer.  You are the rarities.
> >
> > <Philip Salgannik> wrote in message
> > news:3f32a4de.4384.846930886@sybase.com...
> > > So. It was the same picture several years ago with PB
> > > candidates.
> > > What difference does it make.
> > > Then you could find 2 decent PB developers out of 50
> > > candidates, now you have the same "talent" pool, half of
> > > which ended up as Java "developers" from the 48 you
> > > rejected couple of years ago for PB. I can imagine what
> > > kind of Java code they write...
> > >
> > > > I take that back, 20 to 1 is way to low.  Its more
> > > > like 50 to 1.
> > > >
> > > > -Chris
> >
> >


0
Mathieu
8/7/2003 7:54:59 PM
I agree. Example: once at a trade show I got a free copy of a VB mag [know
thy enemy]. There was an article showing how to get the version of Windows
the program was running on. It took <TIC> only </TIC> two pages of code. In
PB, of course, that's GetEnvironment().

"PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> wrote in message
news:3f329a63$1@forums-1-dub...
>
> good point...Sybase was really stressing return on investment for awhile.
I
> remember when PowerSoft had some very basic advertising showing the code
> required in various development tools ( Delphi, SQL Windows ... ) to do
> simple tasks like retrieve a grid of data.
>
> <dw-extreme> wrote in message news:3f329193.370e.846930886@sybase.com...
> > Exactly what I was going to say.  Most of the clients I deal
> > with dont have 50 employees in the whole company.  They cant
> > afford an army of java coders but they get by quite well
> > with 3 - 7 very good PB developers.  I will say the
> > companies I deal with are selling C/S based solutions, so
> > that obviously changes my perception.  Would I see PB at
> > hotels.com or Ebay???  Is it the best solution there???  Not
> > by a long shot.  But I do know of a company that just canned
> > a $15 million J2EE, struts, EJB blah blah project cuz the
> > costs where going out of control for the functionality
> > delivered.
> >
> > > I guess that makes sense, as it would take 50 Java
> > > programmers to do what one PB programmer can do in the
> > > same time ;-)
> > >
> > > "Chris" <schtoo@schtoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3f327cd9@forums-1-dub... I take that back, 20 to 1 is
> > > way to low.  Its more like 50 to 1.
> > >
> > > -Chris
> > >
> > > "Chris" <schtoo@schtoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:3f327c12$1@forums-1-dub... You are then certainly
> > > not the norm.  I do hiring.  I am intimately familar
> > > > with the skills pool to draw from in my area.  Java
> > > > developers are more plentiful than pb developers by a
> > > ration of 20 to 1 (or more). >
> > > > Sure you are using JSP targets.  But would a
> > > non-transitioning pb shop? No
> > > > and I don't think its going to far to say any
> > > > non-transitioning pb should would *never* use pb for
> > > > jsps.  Creating features just for transitioning shops is
> > > a one-way road. >
> > > > As for new projects, I don't know your organization or
> > > > the scope of the projects you talk about but certainly
> > > you are not the norm.  You may be one
> > > > of the rarity shops that are starting new pb work (and
> > > > I'm sure there are more people from shops here too, this
> > > > is a forum for pb people after all, but 99% of new
> > > > software development is not pb... and yes thats my own
> > > anecdotal statistic ;) >
> > > > -Chris
> > > >
> > > > <Ben> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:3f32792f.288b.846930886@sybase.com... I think I
> > > > > > qualify to fall in your first group (software
> > > > > > vendors using pb for their products) but I disagree
> > > > > > that its doing well there.  I am a dev manager for a
> > > small software vendor and we are moving as fast as
> > > > > > possible away from pb.  The biggest concern is
> > > > > > shrinking pb developer pool to fill positions from.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > My employer has no problems finding new PB developers.
> > > > >
> > > > > > I don't know a single shop, whether its a software
> > > > > > vendor or an IT org or a regular company, that is
> > > > > > starting new projects with pb.  PB is just wasting
> > > > away. >
> > > > > To disagree with the above, my employer is busy
> > > > > starting three or
> > > > > four NEW PB projects.  PB is here to stay.
> > > > >
> > > > > > If Sybase
> > > > > > wants to revitalize pb they have to do drastic and
> > > > > > big things to pb.  Things like pdf generation that
> > > > > > came in v9 should be footnotes to releases, not
> > > > > > major features.  Yeah everybody wants pdf generation
> > > > > > (although I think there solution was less than
> > > > > > useable) but that is not something thats gonna cause
> > > > customers to switch to pb. >
> > > > >
> > > > > >  And also
> > > > > > stop making features that nobody except
> > > > > > transitioning pb shops are gonna use. JSP targets???
> > > > > > Who would ever use pb for jsps??
> > > > >
> > > > > I am using those features.
> > > > >
> > > > > > You'd have to be smoking crack.  Sure it makes
> > > > > > it easier for pb users hosting objects in easerver
> > > > > > and calling them from those jsps but thats not going
> > > > > > to gain them pb new converts.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I am hosting JSPs in third-party J2EE servers.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Honestly I don't think Sybase can compete as a tools
> > > > > > company.  I don't think they even really have the
> > > > > > spirit and gumption for it.  As a pb fan I hate to
> > > > > > say it but I don't think there is gonna be any light
> > > > > > at the end of the tunnel for pb.  I think Sybase
> > > > > > needs to chop out the datawindow and sell it
> > > > > > seperately.  They seem to be going that route with
> > > > > > .NET datawindow.  They also need to bring back a
> > > > > > java datawindow solution, except a jsp solution
> > > > > > thats not tied to easerver.  Really I can see it
> > > more like a code generator, something that would generate
> > > > > > your view (jsp) and model (bean) for execution in
> > > > > > any servlet container.  They could write and sell it
> > > > > > as an eclipse plugin (eclipse is simply taking
> > > > > over). >
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree with you here. I can claim that I understand
> > > > > and admire
> > > > > all Sun and Microsoft moves, but I don't make similar
> > > > > claim about Sybase even after having used their
> > > > > products for a long
> > > > > time.
> > > > >
> > > > > > If all Sybase does is focus on making incremental
> > > > > > changes to pb then its course will not change.
> > > > > > Almost everythign that came out in pb 9, imho, was
> > > > > > either worthless to most (jsp targets, orcascript)
> > > > > > or it was soo late to not be exciting (xml,pdf).
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > IMHO, JSP targets are wise.
> > > > >
> > > > > Orcascript?  I know it, but I don't touch it.  It
> > > > > could be better if it was written as a PB console app.
> > > > >  Why wrote it as a VC++ app?
> > > > >
> > > > > > PocketPowerBuilder is the only thing thats seems
> > > > > > really smart.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Chris
> > > > > >
> > > > > > p.s.  And they need to do drastic things *while*
> > > > > > they incrementally fix the things that have sucked
> > > > > > for so long (like the crappy visual appearance of a
> > > > > > grid dw vs a standards windows listview).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > <dw-extreme> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com... I am
> > > > > > > looking for opinions and viewpoints.  I think
> > > > > > > Powerbuilder has 2 distinct and quite different
> > > > > > > markets. The small to medium sized software market
> > > > > > > and corporate IT market. In the software market
> > > > > > > where results are easy to measure on the bottom
> > > > > > > line I think PB is doing just fine. The
> > > > > > > productivity, efficiency and swift development
> > > process suites that market just fine.  Just keep your
> > > > > > customers happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in
> > > > > > > PB based software packages considering the total
> > > > > > > lack of documentation.  That speaks volume on the
> > > > > > > capabilities of PB if you just get into it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On the IT market where results are measured quite
> > > > > > > differently I think PB is having a much more
> > > > > > >  difficult time. Its more just keep management
> > > > > > > happy.  And you know management wants to be
> > > > > > > 'forward' thinking.  You dont want to look like
> > > > > > > your standing still so there is pressure to go to
> > > > > > > the latest technology whether or not it is needed
> > > > > > > or if its the correct solution.  I have recieve so
> > > > > > many emails similar to the following one which
> > > > > > > prompted this message.: > "...Unfortunately we'll
> > > > > > > probably abandon Powerbuilder in favour of
> > > > > > VB.NET... >
> > > > > > > ...most developpers I know here never heard about
> > > > > > > PB or else there knwoledge about it is really
> > > > > > outdated. >
> > > > > > > I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an
> > > > > > > exstensive training) and I still like PB more
> > > > > > > (much more productive in about everything, far
> > > > > > less code to get the same result..." >
> > > > > > > So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore
> > > > > > > going forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the
> > > > > > > beginning of a new period of growth rather than
> > > > > > decline. >
> > > > > > > Again I would like to hear the opinions of others
> > > > > > >  out there. Are/were you energized about the
> > > > > > > future of PB at Techwave or not?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ben
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>


0
Jerry
8/8/2003 4:07:47 PM
> Just keep your customers happy.

Are you reffering Sybase to keep their customer happy ??????

Thanks
Vasu


0
Vasu
8/8/2003 4:33:30 PM
I was talking to our Sybase sales rep and he mentioned a new whitepaper
regarding using the PowerBuilder/Appeon solution for deploying to the web.  It
compares the Java, .NET, and PB solution to the old PetShop application.  If I
remember correctly, Java took about 12,000 lines of code, .NET took 3,000, and
PB took 300!

On 8 Aug 2003 09:07:47 -0700,
 in sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
Jerry Siegel <jerrys@data-sci.com.nospam> wrote: 
>I agree. Example: once at a trade show I got a free copy of a VB mag [know
>thy enemy]. There was an article showing how to get the version of Windows
>the program was running on. It took <TIC> only </TIC> two pages of code. In
>PB, of course, that's GetEnvironment().
>
>"PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> wrote in message
>news:3f329a63$1@forums-1-dub...
>>
>> good point...Sybase was really stressing return on investment for awhile.
>I
>> remember when PowerSoft had some very basic advertising showing the code
>> required in various development tools ( Delphi, SQL Windows ... ) to do
>> simple tasks like retrieve a grid of data.
>>
<<Snip>>
Phil Yandel
Household International
Philip.C.Yandel@Household.com  (Work)
PhilCYa@Yahoo.com (Personal)
0
Phil
8/8/2003 6:29:08 PM
Phil,

I can't find it ...
Can someone provide me the url so I can read it ...
Seems very interesting !

Alain


"Phil Yandel" <Philip.C.Yandel@NOSPAM.Household.Com> a �crit dans le message
news: 3f33ebf4$1@forums-1-dub...
> I was talking to our Sybase sales rep and he mentioned a new whitepaper
> regarding using the PowerBuilder/Appeon solution for deploying to the web.
It
> compares the Java, .NET, and PB solution to the old PetShop application.
If I
> remember correctly, Java took about 12,000 lines of code, .NET took 3,000,
and
> PB took 300!
>
> On 8 Aug 2003 09:07:47 -0700,
>  in sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
> Jerry Siegel <jerrys@data-sci.com.nospam> wrote:
> >I agree. Example: once at a trade show I got a free copy of a VB mag
[know
> >thy enemy]. There was an article showing how to get the version of
Windows
> >the program was running on. It took <TIC> only </TIC> two pages of code.
In
> >PB, of course, that's GetEnvironment().
> >
> >"PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> wrote in message
> >news:3f329a63$1@forums-1-dub...
> >>
> >> good point...Sybase was really stressing return on investment for
awhile.
> >I
> >> remember when PowerSoft had some very basic advertising showing the
code
> >> required in various development tools ( Delphi, SQL Windows ... ) to do
> >> simple tasks like retrieve a grid of data.
> >>
> <<Snip>>
> Phil Yandel
> Household International
> Philip.C.Yandel@Household.com  (Work)
> PhilCYa@Yahoo.com (Personal)


0
Alain
8/8/2003 7:17:07 PM
The software company customers

> > Just keep your customers happy.
>
> Are you reffering Sybase to keep their customer happy
> ??????
>
> Thanks
> Vasu
>
>
0
dw
8/8/2003 8:56:07 PM
Have you tried out the sample app in the website?
To me it looks like a CITRIX Metaframe inside a browser...I happened to hit
Back button on the browser and the app disappeared. I guess you can write
some code to disable the back button while the app is in the middle of a
process...

Cheers,
Biju
"Phil Yandel" <Philip.C.Yandel@NOSPAM.Household.Com> wrote in message
news:3f33ebf4$1@forums-1-dub...
> I was talking to our Sybase sales rep and he mentioned a new whitepaper
> regarding using the PowerBuilder/Appeon solution for deploying to the web.
It
> compares the Java, .NET, and PB solution to the old PetShop application.
If I
> remember correctly, Java took about 12,000 lines of code, .NET took 3,000,
and
> PB took 300!
>
> On 8 Aug 2003 09:07:47 -0700,
>  in sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
> Jerry Siegel <jerrys@data-sci.com.nospam> wrote:
> >I agree. Example: once at a trade show I got a free copy of a VB mag
[know
> >thy enemy]. There was an article showing how to get the version of
Windows
> >the program was running on. It took <TIC> only </TIC> two pages of code.
In
> >PB, of course, that's GetEnvironment().
> >
> >"PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> wrote in message
> >news:3f329a63$1@forums-1-dub...
> >>
> >> good point...Sybase was really stressing return on investment for
awhile.
> >I
> >> remember when PowerSoft had some very basic advertising showing the
code
> >> required in various development tools ( Delphi, SQL Windows ... ) to do
> >> simple tasks like retrieve a grid of data.
> >>
> <<Snip>>
> Phil Yandel
> Household International
> Philip.C.Yandel@Household.com  (Work)
> PhilCYa@Yahoo.com (Personal)


0
Biju
8/8/2003 9:10:46 PM
I'm not sure it has been officially released yet.

On 8 Aug 2003 12:17:07 -0700,
 in sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
Alain Bourque <nospamlogiqueciels@sympatico.ca> wrote: 
>Phil,
>
>I can't find it ...
>Can someone provide me the url so I can read it ...
>Seems very interesting !
>
>Alain
>
>
>"Phil Yandel" <Philip.C.Yandel@NOSPAM.Household.Com> a �crit dans le message
>news: 3f33ebf4$1@forums-1-dub...
>> I was talking to our Sybase sales rep and he mentioned a new whitepaper
>> regarding using the PowerBuilder/Appeon solution for deploying to the web.
>It
>> compares the Java, .NET, and PB solution to the old PetShop application.
>If I
>> remember correctly, Java took about 12,000 lines of code, .NET took 3,000,
>and
>> PB took 300!
>>
>> On 8 Aug 2003 09:07:47 -0700,
>>  in sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
>> Jerry Siegel <jerrys@data-sci.com.nospam> wrote:
>> >I agree. Example: once at a trade show I got a free copy of a VB mag
>[know
>> >thy enemy]. There was an article showing how to get the version of
>Windows
>> >the program was running on. It took <TIC> only </TIC> two pages of code.
>In
>> >PB, of course, that's GetEnvironment().
>> >
>> >"PB_Developer" <NOSPAM_jleary@pwrpros.com> wrote in message
>> >news:3f329a63$1@forums-1-dub...
>> >>
>> >> good point...Sybase was really stressing return on investment for
>awhile.
>> >I
>> >> remember when PowerSoft had some very basic advertising showing the
>code
>> >> required in various development tools ( Delphi, SQL Windows ... ) to do
>> >> simple tasks like retrieve a grid of data.
>> >>
>> <<Snip>>
>> Phil Yandel
>> Household International
>> Philip.C.Yandel@Household.com  (Work)
>> PhilCYa@Yahoo.com (Personal)
>
>

Phil Yandel
Household International
Philip.C.Yandel@Household.com  (Work)
PhilCYa@Yahoo.com (Personal)
0
Phil
8/11/2003 12:44:15 PM
They demoed datawindow.net.  Pretty cool to see the dw in a visual studio
application.  Beta testing is slated to start somewhere in October.

-- 
Terry Dykstra (TeamSybase)
Techwave 2003 (PWB511: You Can Do That in InfoMaker? Cool!)
http://powerbuilder.codeXchange.sybase.com/
http://www.pb9books.com

"PowrSite Software, Inc." <powrsite_software@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3f31449b$1@forums-1-dub...
> Has anything come out of techwave regarding the .NET features for
> Powerbuilder?  I'm surprised at how little news has been posted here so
far!
>
> - Jim
>
> <dw-extreme> wrote in message news:3f313d38.6b2.846930886@sybase.com...
> > I am looking for opinions and viewpoints.  I think
> > Powerbuilder has 2 distinct and quite different markets.
> > The small to medium sized software market and corporate IT
> > market.  In the software market where results are easy to
> > measure on the bottom line I think PB is doing just fine.
> > The productivity, efficiency and swift development process
> > suites that market just fine.  Just keep your customers
> > happy.  I am amazed at what I have seen in PB based software
> > packages considering the total lack of documentation.  That
> > speaks volume on the capabilities of PB if you just get into
> > it.
> >
> > On the IT market where results are measured quite
> > differently I think PB is having a much more difficult time.
> >  Its more just keep management happy.  And you know
> > management wants to be 'forward' thinking.  You dont want to
> > look like your standing still so there is pressure to go to
> > the latest technology whether or not it is needed or if its
> > the correct solution.  I have recieve so many emails similar
> > to the following one which prompted this message.:
> >
> > "...Unfortunately we'll probably abandon Powerbuilder in
> > favour of VB.NET...
> >
> > ...most developpers I know here never heard about PB or else
> > there knwoledge about it is really outdated.
> >
> > I've worked with VB/VBA and VB.NET (just had an exstensive
> > training) and I still like PB more (much more productive in
> > about everything, far less code to get the same result..."
> >
> > So Sybase needs to first stop the bleeding bofore going
> > forward.  I certainly hope Techwave is the beginning of a
> > new period of growth rather than decline.
> >
> > Again I would like to hear the opinions of others out there.
> >  Are/were you energized about the future of PB at Techwave
> > or not?
>
>


0
Terry
8/11/2003 3:56:23 PM
I'm not trying to start a different thread here, but since Quebec is
predominantly French, perhaps the PB developers are still boycotting
anything French-related.
;)

"Mathieu Gendron" <jggjgjgf@ouioui.com> wrote in message
news:3f32ae93$1@forums-1-dub...
> We're really having a hard time trying to find a PB programmer here in the
> Quebec city area... even in the consulting business.
>
>
> <Philip Salgannik> a �crit dans le message de news:
> 3f32aa59.4718.846930886@sybase.com...
> > Well, I can tell you one thing.
> > I know a lot of people in NYC in programming business.
> > Everybody who is looking for Java work, VB/ASP work, etc. -
> > is NOT working
> >
> > Everybody who IS working is doing PB right now :-)
> >
> > > Sure, more of the java candidates aren't worth hiring.
> > > The glut of fluff moves with tech.  But you can also argue
> > > that most of the seasoned and generally more potent
> > > programmers saw the winds blowing and changed to Java long
> > > ago too.  So that also affects the prospects...
> > >
> > > How many really good programmers (outside of the rarities
> > > found on these forums) are working in PB and look for PB
> > > jobs?
> > >
> > > -Chris
> > >
> > > ps. To those about to flame me, I am not talking about
> > > you.  If you read these forums you are most likely a PB
> > > diehard and a good programmer.  You are the rarities.
> > >
> > > <Philip Salgannik> wrote in message
> > > news:3f32a4de.4384.846930886@sybase.com...
> > > > So. It was the same picture several years ago with PB
> > > > candidates.
> > > > What difference does it make.
> > > > Then you could find 2 decent PB developers out of 50
> > > > candidates, now you have the same "talent" pool, half of
> > > > which ended up as Java "developers" from the 48 you
> > > > rejected couple of years ago for PB. I can imagine what
> > > > kind of Java code they write...
> > > >
> > > > > I take that back, 20 to 1 is way to low.  Its more
> > > > > like 50 to 1.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Chris
> > >
> > >
>
>


0
John
8/13/2003 7:04:14 PM
mais d'accord, mon ami!

Timoth�


"John S. Michael" <john.michael@foremost.com> wrote in message
news:3f3a8bae$1@forums-1-dub...
> I'm not trying to start a different thread here, but since Quebec is
> predominantly French, perhaps the PB developers are still boycotting
> anything French-related.
> ;)
>
> "Mathieu Gendron" <jggjgjgf@ouioui.com> wrote in message
> news:3f32ae93$1@forums-1-dub...
> > We're really having a hard time trying to find a PB programmer here in
the
> > Quebec city area... even in the consulting business.
> >
> >
> > <Philip Salgannik> a �crit dans le message de news:
> > 3f32aa59.4718.846930886@sybase.com...
> > > Well, I can tell you one thing.
> > > I know a lot of people in NYC in programming business.
> > > Everybody who is looking for Java work, VB/ASP work, etc. -
> > > is NOT working
> > >
> > > Everybody who IS working is doing PB right now :-)
> > >
> > > > Sure, more of the java candidates aren't worth hiring.
> > > > The glut of fluff moves with tech.  But you can also argue
> > > > that most of the seasoned and generally more potent
> > > > programmers saw the winds blowing and changed to Java long
> > > > ago too.  So that also affects the prospects...
> > > >
> > > > How many really good programmers (outside of the rarities
> > > > found on these forums) are working in PB and look for PB
> > > > jobs?
> > > >
> > > > -Chris
> > > >
> > > > ps. To those about to flame me, I am not talking about
> > > > you.  If you read these forums you are most likely a PB
> > > > diehard and a good programmer.  You are the rarities.
> > > >
> > > > <Philip Salgannik> wrote in message
> > > > news:3f32a4de.4384.846930886@sybase.com...
> > > > > So. It was the same picture several years ago with PB
> > > > > candidates.
> > > > > What difference does it make.
> > > > > Then you could find 2 decent PB developers out of 50
> > > > > candidates, now you have the same "talent" pool, half of
> > > > > which ended up as Java "developers" from the 48 you
> > > > > rejected couple of years ago for PB. I can imagine what
> > > > > kind of Java code they write...
> > > > >
> > > > > > I take that back, 20 to 1 is way to low.  Its more
> > > > > > like 50 to 1.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Chris
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
Tim
8/13/2003 7:50:23 PM
John;

 FYI: I have lived or visited every Province and Territory in Canada, except
for Baffin and The Queen Charlotte Islands. In the top 2/3 of Quebec the
only predominant languages spoken are English and Inuit!

Regards ... Chris
Great White North Technical Evangelist


"John S. Michael" <john.michael@foremost.com> wrote in message
news:3f3a8bae$1@forums-1-dub...
> I'm not trying to start a different thread here, but since Quebec is
> predominantly French, perhaps the PB developers are still boycotting
> anything French-related.
> ;)
>
> "Mathieu Gendron" <jggjgjgf@ouioui.com> wrote in message
> news:3f32ae93$1@forums-1-dub...
> > We're really having a hard time trying to find a PB programmer here in
the
> > Quebec city area... even in the consulting business.
> >
> >
> > <Philip Salgannik> a �crit dans le message de news:
> > 3f32aa59.4718.846930886@sybase.com...
> > > Well, I can tell you one thing.
> > > I know a lot of people in NYC in programming business.
> > > Everybody who is looking for Java work, VB/ASP work, etc. -
> > > is NOT working
> > >
> > > Everybody who IS working is doing PB right now :-)
> > >
> > > > Sure, more of the java candidates aren't worth hiring.
> > > > The glut of fluff moves with tech.  But you can also argue
> > > > that most of the seasoned and generally more potent
> > > > programmers saw the winds blowing and changed to Java long
> > > > ago too.  So that also affects the prospects...
> > > >
> > > > How many really good programmers (outside of the rarities
> > > > found on these forums) are working in PB and look for PB
> > > > jobs?
> > > >
> > > > -Chris
> > > >
> > > > ps. To those about to flame me, I am not talking about
> > > > you.  If you read these forums you are most likely a PB
> > > > diehard and a good programmer.  You are the rarities.
> > > >
> > > > <Philip Salgannik> wrote in message
> > > > news:3f32a4de.4384.846930886@sybase.com...
> > > > > So. It was the same picture several years ago with PB
> > > > > candidates.
> > > > > What difference does it make.
> > > > > Then you could find 2 decent PB developers out of 50
> > > > > candidates, now you have the same "talent" pool, half of
> > > > > which ended up as Java "developers" from the 48 you
> > > > > rejected couple of years ago for PB. I can imagine what
> > > > > kind of Java code they write...
> > > > >
> > > > > > I take that back, 20 to 1 is way to low.  Its more
> > > > > > like 50 to 1.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Chris
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
Chris
8/14/2003 10:55:20 AM
Yeah but there is less than 1% of the population there ;)

In fact, 87% of the population speak French... (6.2 millions outta 7.1 -
27220 persons speak Inuit or montagnais-cri;)) In the Montreal area, most
people are speaking both English and French.

Don't forget that I work for the Quebec government :) Those stats are easily
accessibles via a PB application.

"Chris Pollach" <PollachC@SCC-CSC.gc.ca> a �crit dans le message de news:
3f3b6a9d$1@forums-2-dub...
> John;
>
>  FYI: I have lived or visited every Province and Territory in Canada,
except
> for Baffin and The Queen Charlotte Islands. In the top 2/3 of Quebec the
> only predominant languages spoken are English and Inuit!
>
> Regards ... Chris
> Great White North Technical Evangelist
>
>
> "John S. Michael" <john.michael@foremost.com> wrote in message
> news:3f3a8bae$1@forums-1-dub...
> > I'm not trying to start a different thread here, but since Quebec is
> > predominantly French, perhaps the PB developers are still boycotting
> > anything French-related.
> > ;)
> >
> > "Mathieu Gendron" <jggjgjgf@ouioui.com> wrote in message
> > news:3f32ae93$1@forums-1-dub...
> > > We're really having a hard time trying to find a PB programmer here in
> the
> > > Quebec city area... even in the consulting business.
> > >
> > >
> > > <Philip Salgannik> a �crit dans le message de news:
> > > 3f32aa59.4718.846930886@sybase.com...
> > > > Well, I can tell you one thing.
> > > > I know a lot of people in NYC in programming business.
> > > > Everybody who is looking for Java work, VB/ASP work, etc. -
> > > > is NOT working
> > > >
> > > > Everybody who IS working is doing PB right now :-)
> > > >
> > > > > Sure, more of the java candidates aren't worth hiring.
> > > > > The glut of fluff moves with tech.  But you can also argue
> > > > > that most of the seasoned and generally more potent
> > > > > programmers saw the winds blowing and changed to Java long
> > > > > ago too.  So that also affects the prospects...
> > > > >
> > > > > How many really good programmers (outside of the rarities
> > > > > found on these forums) are working in PB and look for PB
> > > > > jobs?
> > > > >
> > > > > -Chris
> > > > >
> > > > > ps. To those about to flame me, I am not talking about
> > > > > you.  If you read these forums you are most likely a PB
> > > > > diehard and a good programmer.  You are the rarities.
> > > > >
> > > > > <Philip Salgannik> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3f32a4de.4384.846930886@sybase.com...
> > > > > > So. It was the same picture several years ago with PB
> > > > > > candidates.
> > > > > > What difference does it make.
> > > > > > Then you could find 2 decent PB developers out of 50
> > > > > > candidates, now you have the same "talent" pool, half of
> > > > > > which ended up as Java "developers" from the 48 you
> > > > > > rejected couple of years ago for PB. I can imagine what
> > > > > > kind of Java code they write...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I take that back, 20 to 1 is way to low.  Its more
> > > > > > > like 50 to 1.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -Chris
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
Mathieu
8/14/2003 2:11:10 PM
Reply:

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