Powerbuilder vs Java vs C#

Just a bit of a rant really, not trying to start any wars or anything (just 
my personal opinions)

I use powerbuilder for work, have been since version 5
we develop a suite of about 5 applications client/sever apps

i have used java in my spare time for a similar sized application (just 1 
app, not a suite of them)

i have started using Visual C# 2005 because according to all the stuff i 
have read
pb is going to dotnet and it would be a good idea to get the hang of things 
in dotnet before pb11 comes around the corner

other langauges i have used alot are perl and php

my comparisions are

Java
- i like the language, it has obviously had a lot of thought put into it and 
has logically laid out api (steep learning curve)
- very verbose and without a decent IDE it is very time consuming to create 
anything
- I use eclipse for and IDE, this is by far the best IDE i have ever used, 
it has cut the amount of actual typing required to less then half
- swing is a bit on the ugly side, they are fixing a lot of that in the next 
release (hopefully)
- being cross platform means you get the lowest common features of all 
platforms (no fancy stuff)
- requires a bit more planning and fore-thought to create an application, 
not for quick hacks
- everything seems to be done in a textbook logical manner at the expense of 
"keeping it simple"
- get sick of casting object types all the time

C# 2005 (i haven't spent much time on this yet, these are first impressions)
- C# is basically a ripoff of java, so i have found it easy to pick up the 
syntax
- I am using the C# Express IDE, hopefully the full visual studio is better, 
intellisense/autocompletion is not as good as Eclipse
- too much eye candy in the IDE, i am more interested in productivity and 
ease of use
- i am constantly scrolling properties lists looking for things (need a 
veritcal 30inch monitor, yeah right)

PowerBuilder
- language is easy to use and pickup (even for non powerbuilder programmers)
- easy to do quick hacks, and mock ups
- datawindow is still fastest way to create gui apps compared to other 
languages
- datawindow is looking a bit dated
- pfc, great framework, saves me heaps of time (java needs this)
- intellisense, not worth using, slow to appear and doesn't offer enough 
information (use Eclipse and you will see what i mean)
- ide, intermittent crashes, slow build times, a bit clunky
- debugger, next to useless always dissapears off into a loop somewhere, end 
up using messageboxes as it is easier
- love the clip window, ms word needs this
- can't edit ancestor and child object at the same time (makes it painful to 
copy code from a child into an ancestor)

Things i would like to see in powerbuilder
1. better intellisense/autocomplete
- i can download pbintelli,  but isn't this a core feature of any ide, why 
should i use a 3rd party tool for this ?
- speed up intellisense, i can often type the function name faster then the 
time it takes the list to load
- when i hit backspace on the intellisense, the list dissappears, i would 
prefer the list to stay visible and include options based on the current 
text
- why not create a powerbuilder/datawindow plugin for eclipse like 
powerdesigner ?

2. pfc, why did sybase stop developing this
- pfc is one of the best things about powerbuilder, what was the 
justification for stopping development
- i know there is an open source version now (which i now have to spend 
time, downloading, testing and integrating)

3. datawindow
- its looking a bit dated, grid views etc could do with a spruce up
- sort indicators on column headers, i know there are 3rd party libraries 
for this, why not include it ?
- page and report group bands, autosize height etc (sounds like they are 
being fixed in next release)
- Very important -> dddw need an option to supress itemchanged event 
everytime someone uses the arrow keys to select an item and only trigger 
itemchanged when the list is closed

4. build times
- it takes me a while to getlatest and full build all my apps (mainly due to 
pfc being compiled once for each application)
- i know there is e-crane smart building stuff but once again isn't 
compiling a core feature of the ide, why should i use a 3rd party tool for 
this ?

5. langauge syntax
- i could do with arraylists and maps in powerbuilder
- can we have a NULL constant please, value = null seems more logical to me
- what about empty arrays, there needs to be a better way to reset an array 
then assigning it to an empty array variable, eg ArrayReset(lsa_array)
- static functions and variables would be nice

Migration away from powerbuilder
every now and then we look at the options in terms of development 
environments, but so far the expense/time to migrate our apps is not worth 
it.
and is there really any advantage switching language, every other language 
has limitations and pitfalls too,
so until there is a real advantage to switch our code base we will be 
sticking with powerbuilder

overall i would give powerbuilder an 8 out of 10
rapid development and productivity, reliable runtimes, but lacking some of 
the new features of other languages

anyway
i just though i would share some of my thoughts and impressions over the 
years

alex





0
Alex
6/22/2005 11:28:36 PM
sybase.powerbuilder.futures 2315 articles. 0 followers. Follow

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Some comments inline as <rk></rk> -- remember, though, you are comparing 
  much more than just the programming languages here (IDEs, platforms), 
so your title should be a bit more focused...

--
Roy

Alex wrote:
<snip/>
> Java
> - swing is a bit on the ugly side, they are fixing a lot of that in the next 
> release (hopefully)
<rk>Take a look at SWT -- there are some excellent SWT Designer plug-ins 
for Eclipse that provide similar functionality to VS.NET WinForm 
designer and the PB visual painter. SWT's new WebForm functionality is 
amzingly cool, IMHO.</rk>

  > C# 2005 (i haven't spent much time on this yet, these are first 
impressions)
> - C# is basically a ripoff of java, so i have found it easy to pick up the 
> syntax
> - I am using the C# Express IDE, hopefully the full visual studio is better, 
> intellisense/autocompletion is not as good as Eclipse
<rk>Take a look at Visual Assist from WholeTomato -- puts both VS.NET's 
Intellisense and Eclipse's to shame (it's 3rd party, which I know you 
don't like, but it's relatively cheap).</rk>

> - too much eye candy in the IDE, i am more interested in productivity and 
> ease of use
<rk>Take a look at #develop instead (it's 3rd party, which I know you 
don't like, but it's free).</rk>

> PowerBuilder
> - pfc, great framework, saves me heaps of time (java needs this)
<rk>There are plenty of service-based frameworks for Java for you to 
pick from.</rk>

> Things i would like to see in powerbuilder
> 1. better intellisense/autocomplete
> - i can download pbintelli,  but isn't this a core feature of any ide, why 
> should i use a 3rd party tool for this ?
<rk>Because 3rd party tools give you tomorrow's functionality today</rk>

> - why not create a powerbuilder/datawindow plugin for eclipse like 
> powerdesigner ?
Sybase's new Workspace is going in that direction

> 2. pfc, why did sybase stop developing this
<rk>FAQ</rk>

  > 3. datawindow
> - its looking a bit dated...
<rk>Work on updated UI is starting with 10.5 and will continue into 
11.0</rk>

> 5. langauge syntax
<rk>Many of these features will be a part of PB11. Be sure to post an 
enhancement requests (and vote for on ISUG) via CaseXpress</rk>

--
Roy
0
Roy
6/22/2005 11:50:40 PM
Are there any sneak peaks at the 10.5 UI/Datawindow out there that are not
restricted by NDAs?


"Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in
message news:42b9f950$1@forums-1-dub...
> Some comments inline as <rk></rk> -- remember, though, you are comparing
>   much more than just the programming languages here (IDEs, platforms),
> so your title should be a bit more focused...
>
> --
> Roy
>
> Alex wrote:
> <snip/>
> > Java
> > - swing is a bit on the ugly side, they are fixing a lot of that in the
next
> > release (hopefully)
> <rk>Take a look at SWT -- there are some excellent SWT Designer plug-ins
> for Eclipse that provide similar functionality to VS.NET WinForm
> designer and the PB visual painter. SWT's new WebForm functionality is
> amzingly cool, IMHO.</rk>
>
>   > C# 2005 (i haven't spent much time on this yet, these are first
> impressions)
> > - C# is basically a ripoff of java, so i have found it easy to pick up
the
> > syntax
> > - I am using the C# Express IDE, hopefully the full visual studio is
better,
> > intellisense/autocompletion is not as good as Eclipse
> <rk>Take a look at Visual Assist from WholeTomato -- puts both VS.NET's
> Intellisense and Eclipse's to shame (it's 3rd party, which I know you
> don't like, but it's relatively cheap).</rk>
>
> > - too much eye candy in the IDE, i am more interested in productivity
and
> > ease of use
> <rk>Take a look at #develop instead (it's 3rd party, which I know you
> don't like, but it's free).</rk>
>
> > PowerBuilder
> > - pfc, great framework, saves me heaps of time (java needs this)
> <rk>There are plenty of service-based frameworks for Java for you to
> pick from.</rk>
>
> > Things i would like to see in powerbuilder
> > 1. better intellisense/autocomplete
> > - i can download pbintelli,  but isn't this a core feature of any ide,
why
> > should i use a 3rd party tool for this ?
> <rk>Because 3rd party tools give you tomorrow's functionality today</rk>
>
> > - why not create a powerbuilder/datawindow plugin for eclipse like
> > powerdesigner ?
> Sybase's new Workspace is going in that direction
>
> > 2. pfc, why did sybase stop developing this
> <rk>FAQ</rk>
>
>   > 3. datawindow
> > - its looking a bit dated...
> <rk>Work on updated UI is starting with 10.5 and will continue into
> 11.0</rk>
>
> > 5. langauge syntax
> <rk>Many of these features will be a part of PB11. Be sure to post an
> enhancement requests (and vote for on ISUG) via CaseXpress</rk>
>
> --
> Roy


0
Daniel
6/23/2005 3:38:08 AM
It's at http://www.sybase.com/isugpresentations, under the .NET
compiler in depth review. (You really gotta start attending these
TechCasts so you're not playing catch up. <beg>)

Good luck,

Terry [TeamSybase] and Sequel the techno-kitten

On 22 Jun 2005 20:38:08 -0700, "Daniel Coppersmith"
<daniel_N.0.S.P.A.M_at_InFrontSoftware_D0T_C0M> wrote:

>Are there any sneak peaks at the 10.5 UI/Datawindow out there that are not
>restricted by NDAs?
>
>
>"Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in
>message news:42b9f950$1@forums-1-dub...
>> Some comments inline as <rk></rk> -- remember, though, you are comparing
>>   much more than just the programming languages here (IDEs, platforms),
>> so your title should be a bit more focused...
>>
>> --
>> Roy
>>
>> Alex wrote:
>> <snip/>
>> > Java
>> > - swing is a bit on the ugly side, they are fixing a lot of that in the
>next
>> > release (hopefully)
>> <rk>Take a look at SWT -- there are some excellent SWT Designer plug-ins
>> for Eclipse that provide similar functionality to VS.NET WinForm
>> designer and the PB visual painter. SWT's new WebForm functionality is
>> amzingly cool, IMHO.</rk>
>>
>>   > C# 2005 (i haven't spent much time on this yet, these are first
>> impressions)
>> > - C# is basically a ripoff of java, so i have found it easy to pick up
>the
>> > syntax
>> > - I am using the C# Express IDE, hopefully the full visual studio is
>better,
>> > intellisense/autocompletion is not as good as Eclipse
>> <rk>Take a look at Visual Assist from WholeTomato -- puts both VS.NET's
>> Intellisense and Eclipse's to shame (it's 3rd party, which I know you
>> don't like, but it's relatively cheap).</rk>
>>
>> > - too much eye candy in the IDE, i am more interested in productivity
>and
>> > ease of use
>> <rk>Take a look at #develop instead (it's 3rd party, which I know you
>> don't like, but it's free).</rk>
>>
>> > PowerBuilder
>> > - pfc, great framework, saves me heaps of time (java needs this)
>> <rk>There are plenty of service-based frameworks for Java for you to
>> pick from.</rk>
>>
>> > Things i would like to see in powerbuilder
>> > 1. better intellisense/autocomplete
>> > - i can download pbintelli,  but isn't this a core feature of any ide,
>why
>> > should i use a 3rd party tool for this ?
>> <rk>Because 3rd party tools give you tomorrow's functionality today</rk>
>>
>> > - why not create a powerbuilder/datawindow plugin for eclipse like
>> > powerdesigner ?
>> Sybase's new Workspace is going in that direction
>>
>> > 2. pfc, why did sybase stop developing this
>> <rk>FAQ</rk>
>>
>>   > 3. datawindow
>> > - its looking a bit dated...
>> <rk>Work on updated UI is starting with 10.5 and will continue into
>> 11.0</rk>
>>
>> > 5. langauge syntax
>> <rk>Many of these features will be a part of PB11. Be sure to post an
>> enhancement requests (and vote for on ISUG) via CaseXpress</rk>
>>
>> --
>> Roy
>

*********************************
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http://www.thehungersite.com
*********************************
User Manual
===========
TeamSybase <> Sybase employee
Forums = Peer-to-peer
Forums <> Communication with Sybase
IsNull (AnswerTo (Posting)) can return TRUE
Forums.Moderated = TRUE, so behave or be deleted
*********************************

Sequel's Sandbox: http://www.techno-kitten.com
Home of PBL Peeper, a free PowerBuilder Developer's Toolkit. 
Version 2.2.06 now available at the Sandbox
PB Futures page updated June 12/2005
See the PB Troubleshooting Guide at the Sandbox
^ ^
o o
=*=
0
Terry
6/23/2005 4:36:03 AM
Alex wrote:

> Just a bit of a rant really, not trying to start any wars or anything (just 
> my personal opinions)
> 
> I use powerbuilder for work, have been since version 5
> we develop a suite of about 5 applications client/sever apps
> 
> i have used java in my spare time for a similar sized application (just 1 
> app, not a suite of them)
> 
> i have started using Visual C# 2005 because according to all the stuff i 
> have read
> pb is going to dotnet and it would be a good idea to get the hang of things 
> in dotnet before pb11 comes around the corner
> 
> other langauges i have used alot are perl and php
> 
> my comparisions are
> 
> Java
> - i like the language, it has obviously had a lot of thought put into it and 
> has logically laid out api (steep learning curve)
> - very verbose and without a decent IDE it is very time consuming to create 
> anything
> - I use eclipse for and IDE, this is by far the best IDE i have ever used, 
> it has cut the amount of actual typing required to less then half
> - swing is a bit on the ugly side, they are fixing a lot of that in the next 
> release (hopefully)
> - being cross platform means you get the lowest common features of all 
> platforms (no fancy stuff)
> - requires a bit more planning and fore-thought to create an application, 
> not for quick hacks
> - everything seems to be done in a textbook logical manner at the expense of 
> "keeping it simple"
> - get sick of casting object types all the time
> 
> C# 2005 (i haven't spent much time on this yet, these are first impressions)
> - C# is basically a ripoff of java, so i have found it easy to pick up the 
> syntax
> - I am using the C# Express IDE, hopefully the full visual studio is better, 
> intellisense/autocompletion is not as good as Eclipse
> - too much eye candy in the IDE, i am more interested in productivity and 
> ease of use
> - i am constantly scrolling properties lists looking for things (need a 
> veritcal 30inch monitor, yeah right)
> 
> PowerBuilder
> - language is easy to use and pickup (even for non powerbuilder programmers)
> - easy to do quick hacks, and mock ups
> - datawindow is still fastest way to create gui apps compared to other 
> languages
> - datawindow is looking a bit dated
> - pfc, great framework, saves me heaps of time (java needs this)
> - intellisense, not worth using, slow to appear and doesn't offer enough 
> information (use Eclipse and you will see what i mean)
> - ide, intermittent crashes, slow build times, a bit clunky
> - debugger, next to useless always dissapears off into a loop somewhere, end 
> up using messageboxes as it is easier
> - love the clip window, ms word needs this
> - can't edit ancestor and child object at the same time (makes it painful to 
> copy code from a child into an ancestor)
> 
> Things i would like to see in powerbuilder
> 1. better intellisense/autocomplete
> - i can download pbintelli,  but isn't this a core feature of any ide, why 
> should i use a 3rd party tool for this ?
> - speed up intellisense, i can often type the function name faster then the 
> time it takes the list to load
> - when i hit backspace on the intellisense, the list dissappears, i would 
> prefer the list to stay visible and include options based on the current 
> text
> - why not create a powerbuilder/datawindow plugin for eclipse like 
> powerdesigner ?
> 
> 2. pfc, why did sybase stop developing this
> - pfc is one of the best things about powerbuilder, what was the 
> justification for stopping development
> - i know there is an open source version now (which i now have to spend 
> time, downloading, testing and integrating)

Is there much need for this to be supported by 
Sybase? It is past its use by date in regards to 
new functionality and is now open-sourced and 
waiting for developers such as yourself to improve it.

> 3. datawindow
> - its looking a bit dated, grid views etc could do with a spruce up

Agreed.

> - sort indicators on column headers, i know there are 3rd party libraries 
> for this, why not include it ?
> - page and report group bands, autosize height etc (sounds like they are 
> being fixed in next release)
> - Very important -> dddw need an option to supress itemchanged event 
> everytime someone uses the arrow keys to select an item and only trigger 
> itemchanged when the list is closed
> 
> 4. build times
> - it takes me a while to getlatest and full build all my apps (mainly due to 
> pfc being compiled once for each application)
> - i know there is e-crane smart building stuff but once again isn't 
> compiling a core feature of the ide, why should i use a 3rd party tool for 
> this ?

Well my opinion on this would be that Sybase is 
better off having partners who develop these 
"utilities" leaving Sybase to focus on the product.

> 
> 5. langauge syntax
> - i could do with arraylists and maps in powerbuilder
> - can we have a NULL constant please, value = null seems more logical to me
> - what about empty arrays, there needs to be a better way to reset an array 
> then assigning it to an empty array variable, eg ArrayReset(lsa_array)
> - static functions and variables would be nice
> 
> Migration away from powerbuilder
> every now and then we look at the options in terms of development 
> environments, but so far the expense/time to migrate our apps is not worth 
> it.
> and is there really any advantage switching language, every other language 
> has limitations and pitfalls too,
> so until there is a real advantage to switch our code base we will be 
> sticking with powerbuilder

Give Appeon a go! :)

> 
> overall i would give powerbuilder an 8 out of 10
> rapid development and productivity, reliable runtimes, but lacking some of 
> the new features of other languages
> 
> anyway
> i just though i would share some of my thoughts and impressions over the 
> years
> 
> alex
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
0
Adam
6/23/2005 1:28:21 PM
Reply:

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