Blah blah blah

You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how many
times...

The DataWindow.

....but it can't be enough anymore...can it?

This from one of our colleagues
(and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...

"...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and I've
looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool
(I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."

So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
and thanks in advance for your investment of
time/effort to respond...

*** 1) What true competitive differentiators
does PowerBuilder still have
as 2007 draws to a close? ***

Yes, we can add/improve features but...

*** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***

Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?

Maybe its a single feature.
Maybe its a new category of functionality.
Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already does.

There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
to the litmus test...
....is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?
-- 
John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist

I'll start with this..

That's the second time I have seen you post relating to competition between VS and PB. In order to compete, you have to be in the same race and PB is not and has not been since .Net was created over 6 years ago. Although they both roughly allow you to create applications, they each allow you to go about the process in completely different ways. 

Define what competition means to Sybase? Because from where I'm sitting I see..1) More .Net framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB IDE. All of those kinda say VS and MS have won. How can you say you want to compete with something that will soon be at the core of your IDE?

A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side comparison will confirm that PB is no where close. The  way the die-hards make it "seem" close is by lopping off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much we normally disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net) are general purpose programming tools..PB is a client/server programming tool. I feel that until that changes, there is no way to do a comparison.

On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew it. If DW.Net had release with 1) a fully managed implementation and 2) ADO.Net support - they might have had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a competitive product when Telerik RAD controls are being used by DWs when they go to a web form? Telerik is a direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is that all about?

If you really want to examine where the competition point is...I would check the differences between what Sybase Engineering has done vs. the 2500+ folks on the MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at beating that many heads with that many man hours by finding..

> Maybe its a single feature.
> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already does.

is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how to follow and stay close behind. Its the best option right now until maybe a better option presents itself down the road.

Troy


John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
> Blah blah blah
> 
> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how many
> times...
> 
> The DataWindow.
> 
> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
> 
> This from one of our colleagues
> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
> 
> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
> Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
> the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
> seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and I've
> looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool
> (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
> 
> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
> and thanks in advance for your investment of
> time/effort to respond...
> 
> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
> does PowerBuilder still have
> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
> 
> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
> 
> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
> 
> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
> 
> Maybe its a single feature.
> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already does.
> 
> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
> to the litmus test...
> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?

>> How can you say you want to compete with something that will soon be at 
>> the core of your IDE?

By adding value.

The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only meant as
one example to jog discussion, but has arguably muddied the water now.

Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for something new
to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors have...and of course there's
more than one in 2007 and beyond.

So as a client/server development tool.
Do you have any differentiators to suggest
that would be competitive?

-- 
John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist


"Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message 
news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
> I'll start with this..
>
> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to competition 
> between VS and PB. In order to compete, you have to be in the same race 
> and PB is not and has not been since .Net was created over 6 years ago. 
> Although they both roughly allow you to create applications, they each 
> allow you to go about the process in completely different ways.
> Define what competition means to Sybase? Because from where I'm sitting I 
> see..1) More .Net framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like 
> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB IDE. All of those 
> kinda say VS and MS have won. How can you say you want to compete with 
> something that will soon be at the core of your IDE?
>
> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side comparison will 
> confirm that PB is no where close. The  way the die-hards make it "seem" 
> close is by lopping off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not 
> important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much we normally 
> disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net) are general purpose programming 
> tools..PB is a client/server programming tool. I feel that until that 
> changes, there is no way to do a comparison.
>
> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew it. If DW.Net had 
> release with 1) a fully managed implementation and 2) ADO.Net support - 
> they might have had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the 
> world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a competitive 
> product when Telerik RAD controls are being used by DWs when they go to a 
> web form? Telerik is a direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is 
> that all about?
>
> If you really want to examine where the competition point is...I would 
> check the differences between what Sybase Engineering has done vs. the 
> 2500+ folks on the MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at 
> beating that many heads with that many man hours by finding..
>
>> Maybe its a single feature.
>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already does.
>
> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how to follow and stay 
> close behind. Its the best option right now until maybe a better option 
> presents itself down the road.
>
> Troy
>
>
> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>> Blah blah blah
>>
>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how many
>> times...
>>
>> The DataWindow.
>>
>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>
>> This from one of our colleagues
>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>
>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
>> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
>> Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
>> the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
>> seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and I've
>> looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool
>> (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
>>
>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>> time/effort to respond...
>>
>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>> does PowerBuilder still have
>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>
>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>
>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>
>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>
>> Maybe its a single feature.
>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already does.
>>
>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>> to the litmus test...
>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator? 

The Telerik controls are not used by the DataWindow in web form
applications. We use the menu and toolbar in a web form application.
We also use the calendar control for the datepicker and monthcalendar
control in a web form application. 

Regards,
Dave Fish
Sybase

PowerBuilder Blog:
http://powerbuilderevangelist.blogspot.com/

On 14 Dec 2007 10:17:21 -0800, Troy <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com>
wrote:

>But once again, how do you exactly say you have a competitive product when Telerik RAD controls are being used by DWs when they go to 
>a web form? Telerik is a direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is that all about?

Sorry if that came out sideways. But either way its semantics Dave and you know it.  Sybase licensed or otherwise was given permission to us Telerik controls which props them and undercuts DW.Net. Put simply, if your a sales rep at Telerik and are you are asked how does your control set stack up against DW.Net, your obvious answer is that Sybase uses Telerik stuff.

Troy

Dave Fish [TeamSybase] wrote:
> The Telerik controls are not used by the DataWindow in web form
> applications. We use the menu and toolbar in a web form application.
> We also use the calendar control for the datepicker and monthcalendar
> control in a web form application. 
> 
> Regards,
> Dave Fish
> Sybase
> 
> PowerBuilder Blog:
> http://powerbuilderevangelist.blogspot.com/
> 
> On 14 Dec 2007 10:17:21 -0800, Troy <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> But once again, how do you exactly say you have a competitive product when Telerik RAD controls are being used by DWs when they go to 
>> a web form? Telerik is a direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is that all about?

Maybe it would be helpful to start a sub-thread...

*** 1) What true competitive differentiators
does PowerBuilder still have
as 2007 draws to a close? ***

We've been talking for years about the "data intelligence" of the 
DataWindow,
tracking the user's modifications with item status, automatically issuing
the SQL, stored procedure calls (and now Web Service calls) for
update, insert, delete without even a template being required of the
developer.

....But now some of you have recognized that we do have
some competition out there for this feature.

What do you know PowerBuilder still does for you that others don't?
-- 
John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist


"John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
news:4762b160$1@forums-1-dub...
> Blah blah blah
>
> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how many
> times...
>
> The DataWindow.
>
> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>
> This from one of our colleagues
> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>
> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
> Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
> the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
> seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and I've
> looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool
> (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
>
> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
> and thanks in advance for your investment of
> time/effort to respond...
>
> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
> does PowerBuilder still have
> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>
> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>
> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>
> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>
> Maybe its a single feature.
> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already does.
>
> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
> to the litmus test...
> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?
> -- 
> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>
>
> 

I have to disagree, I don't think it is semantics. Now if you compare
the Telerik DATA controls to the DataWindow, and we are using their
data controls in our web forms solution you would have a point. 

Essentially it was a make vs. buy decision for ASP .NET navigation
controls. 

Using their menu, toolbar and calendar controls in PowerBuilder 11 web
form applications doesn't cede anything to them in the area of data
access and presentation. We don't use their technology in our
DataWindow .NET product. 

Regards,
Dave Fish
Sybase

PowerBuilder Blog:
http://powerbuilderevangelist.blogspot.com/



On 14 Dec 2007 12:15:43 -0800, Troy <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com>
wrote:

>Sorry if that came out sideways. But either way its semantics Dave and you know it.  Sybase licensed or otherwise was given permission to us Telerik controls which props them and undercuts DW.Net. Put simply, if your a sales rep at Telerik and are you are asked how does your control set stack up against DW.Net, your obvious answer is that Sybase uses Telerik stuff.
>
>Troy
>
>Dave Fish [TeamSybase] wrote:
>> The Telerik controls are not used by the DataWindow in web form
>> applications. We use the menu and toolbar in a web form application.
>> We also use the calendar control for the datepicker and monthcalendar
>> control in a web form application. 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Dave Fish
>> Sybase
>> 
>> PowerBuilder Blog:
>> http://powerbuilderevangelist.blogspot.com/
>> 
>> On 14 Dec 2007 10:17:21 -0800, Troy <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> But once again, how do you exactly say you have a competitive product when Telerik RAD controls are being used by DWs when they go to 
>>> a web form? Telerik is a direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is that all about?

 > Using their menu, toolbar and calendar controls doesn't cede anything to them in the area of presentation. 

We can agree to disagree. But I chopped up one of your sentences so you can see it the way I did. Those are UI controls. If they were something like mail components or telephony widgets I would agree but they are all UI. UI = presentation.

Sorry for the hijack of the thread.

I can't help how you interpret what I write but taking out the words
data access is more than taking something out of context IMHO. 

Here is my original text:

Using their menu, toolbar and calendar controls in PowerBuilder 11 web
form applications doesn't cede anything to them in the area of data
access and presentation. We don't use their technology in our
DataWindow .NET product. 

I doubt it will satisfy you but to be more precise I'll restate the
above to say data access and DATA presentation if that makes my
meaning more precise. 

Regards,
Dave Fish
Sybase

PowerBuilder Blog:
http://powerbuilderevangelist.blogspot.com/

On 14 Dec 2007 12:55:43 -0800, Troy <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com>
wrote:

> > Using their menu, toolbar and calendar controls doesn't cede anything to them in the area of presentation. 
>
>We can agree to disagree. But I chopped up one of your sentences so you can see it the way I did. Those are UI controls. 
>If they were something like mail components or telephony widgets I would agree but they are all UI. UI = presentation.
>
>Sorry for the hijack of the thread.
>

I think the ability to deploy a Win32 application to Web Form or Windows 
Form/Smart client by changing targets is tremendous.  I am sure someone will 
correct me, but I believe Visual Studio does not do this. I realize some 
code modifications in PB are needed to make things run smoothly, but it 
really has not been that difficult.

Regards,

GregD


"John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
news:4762eafb$1@forums-1-dub...
> Maybe it would be helpful to start a sub-thread...
>
> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
> does PowerBuilder still have
> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>
> We've been talking for years about the "data intelligence" of the 
> DataWindow,
> tracking the user's modifications with item status, automatically issuing
> the SQL, stored procedure calls (and now Web Service calls) for
> update, insert, delete without even a template being required of the
> developer.
>
> ...But now some of you have recognized that we do have
> some competition out there for this feature.
>
> What do you know PowerBuilder still does for you that others don't?
> -- 
> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>
>
> "John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
> news:4762b160$1@forums-1-dub...
>> Blah blah blah
>>
>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how many
>> times...
>>
>> The DataWindow.
>>
>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>
>> This from one of our colleagues
>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>
>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
>> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
>> Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
>> the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
>> seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and I've
>> looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool
>> (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
>>
>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>> time/effort to respond...
>>
>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>> does PowerBuilder still have
>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>
>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>
>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>
>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>
>> Maybe its a single feature.
>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already does.
>>
>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>> to the litmus test...
>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?
>> -- 
>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>
>>
>>
>
> 

You are correct, Visual Studio does not allow you to deploy a Winform app to 
Webform. You have to make a choice up front as to the application type.

So that is a true differentiator for PB over VS.

"GregD" <greg@pdccorpnospam.com> wrote in message 
news:47630cc7$1@forums-1-dub...
>I think the ability to deploy a Win32 application to Web Form or Windows 
>Form/Smart client by changing targets is tremendous.  I am sure someone 
>will correct me, but I believe Visual Studio does not do this. I realize 
>some code modifications in PB are needed to make things run smoothly, but 
>it really has not been that difficult.
>
> Regards,
>
> GregD
>
>
> "John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
> news:4762eafb$1@forums-1-dub...
>> Maybe it would be helpful to start a sub-thread...
>>
>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>> does PowerBuilder still have
>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>
>> We've been talking for years about the "data intelligence" of the 
>> DataWindow,
>> tracking the user's modifications with item status, automatically issuing
>> the SQL, stored procedure calls (and now Web Service calls) for
>> update, insert, delete without even a template being required of the
>> developer.
>>
>> ...But now some of you have recognized that we do have
>> some competition out there for this feature.
>>
>> What do you know PowerBuilder still does for you that others don't?
>> -- 
>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>
>>
>> "John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
>> news:4762b160$1@forums-1-dub...
>>> Blah blah blah
>>>
>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how many
>>> times...
>>>
>>> The DataWindow.
>>>
>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>
>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>
>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
>>> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
>>> Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
>>> the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
>>> seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and I've
>>> looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool
>>> (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
>>>
>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>
>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>
>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>
>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>
>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>
>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already 
>>> does.
>>>
>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>> to the litmus test...
>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?
>>> -- 
>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> 

Sybase shouldn't either. You cannot fully address either project type by distilling both to their common features. For example, the postback problems that Sybase hopes to fix with AJAX. Click based or item based events are kept to a minimum in web projects because they are forced to suffer a round trip. In other words, web apps would rather take ALL your changes and process them in one post back rather than individual trips. The closer you stay to this, the better your app performs and the more people it can serve simultaneously. AJAX just helps hide what should not be done in the first place in this case. Fat web projects is another sign but I'll leave that reasoning up to you guys. Plus it has already been stated that PB 11 web targets are meant for intranets and not high volume sites. So check what you mean by Web Projects.

So if you want to call this a differentiator, how about you also include all the .Net web functionality you cannot get to in PB because of this feature. Then ask yourself if it isn't just another thorn.

Troy

Roland Smith [TeamSybase] wrote:
> You are correct, Visual Studio does not allow you to deploy a Winform app to 
> Webform. You have to make a choice up front as to the application type.
> 
> So that is a true differentiator for PB over VS.
> 
> "GregD" <greg@pdccorpnospam.com> wrote in message 
> news:47630cc7$1@forums-1-dub...
>> I think the ability to deploy a Win32 application to Web Form or Windows 
>> Form/Smart client by changing targets is tremendous.  I am sure someone 
>> will correct me, but I believe Visual Studio does not do this. I realize 
>> some code modifications in PB are needed to make things run smoothly, but 
>> it really has not been that difficult.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> GregD
>>
>>
>> "John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
>> news:4762eafb$1@forums-1-dub...
>>> Maybe it would be helpful to start a sub-thread...
>>>
>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>
>>> We've been talking for years about the "data intelligence" of the 
>>> DataWindow,
>>> tracking the user's modifications with item status, automatically issuing
>>> the SQL, stored procedure calls (and now Web Service calls) for
>>> update, insert, delete without even a template being required of the
>>> developer.
>>>
>>> ...But now some of you have recognized that we do have
>>> some competition out there for this feature.
>>>
>>> What do you know PowerBuilder still does for you that others don't?
>>> -- 
>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>
>>>
>>> "John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
>>> news:4762b160$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>
>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how many
>>>> times...
>>>>
>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>
>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>
>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>
>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
>>>> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
>>>> Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
>>>> the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
>>>> seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and I've
>>>> looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool
>>>> (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
>>>>
>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>
>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>
>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>
>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>
>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>
>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already 
>>>> does.
>>>>
>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?
>>>> -- 
>>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
> 
> 

Ok, I'm done in this thread after this...

If you want to fix PB you can start with the PB 11 .Net unsupported list you find in the help. For each one, ask yourself "why" does this exist. Then look at what it takes to fix them. Then realize why other people do these and Sybase doesn't. Go through enough of them and you will see just how far behind the product is and that although it does things other don't..others decided on a more viable solution. Put simply. If others wanted to do those unique things PB does - they would. The fact that they don't should bother you as it does me.

> We've been talking for years about the "data intelligence" of the 
> DataWindow,
> tracking the user's modifications with item status, automatically issuing
> the SQL, stored procedure calls (and now Web Service calls) for
> update, insert, delete without even a template being required of the
> developer. 
> What do you know PowerBuilder still does for you that others don't?

Great lesson in the tradeoffs of dependency in that discussion. Also a great example of something PBers call a win that others call a travesty in software development. That's why I don't think you will find what you seek asking these type questions. They just go about software development differently in almost every approach to all facets of it. What you see as "competition" on a feature..really isn't. Its a totally different approach in most cases.

Troy
I get cranky towards the holidays.

PB is a client/server tool (with the client possibily being browser based). 
This is something that has always been
true.  So, to think that PB and VS are competors for most projects is not 
true.  There are numerous places where
PB is just not a good fit.  It is one tool in a programmers toolbox, 
hopefully not the only one.  PB will never
replace VS (and language support c, c++, c#, vb.net).

In fact I think it would be difficult to find any PB programmer that does 
not also have VS installed on this/her development
workstation.  I know of few PB projects that do not also have at lease some 
code from other sources.

So, looking for something to allow PB to win over VS users is not a valid 
question.

I think the correct question is "what can be done to make PB a better tool 
for the subset of applications where it
makes sense?".

1) Fully managed code, reduction of the PB runtime to a very small .dll that 
can be copied to the installation directory (no global
cache requirement) and no extra install of pb runtime.
2) Access to WPF componets (windows, layout panels, controls, etc) using a 
very cleaver painter that will make layout easy and still
provide full functionality
3) Really good add-on support (e.g. RTF (TextEdit), Image control (LEAD 
TOOLS), graphing package, report display (Crystal
Reports?) included with PB license.
4) Really good support for third party .net controls and assemblies writen 
outside of PB

It makes no difference to me if this is done inside a VS IDE or a PB only 
IDE.  What ever the implementation, it
must allow creation of client/server (and WEB) applications faster than VS 
studio alone, it must produce applications
that perform better than VS alone, and it must fully support MS Sql Server. 
Also, it must keep up with MS new
releases of OS, dot Net, and SQL Server, not lag behind 6 mo or longer.






"John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
news:4762cff9$1@forums-1-dub...
>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that will soon be at 
>>> the core of your IDE?
>
> By adding value.
>
> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only meant as
> one example to jog discussion, but has arguably muddied the water now.
>
> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for something new
> to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors have...and of course there's
> more than one in 2007 and beyond.
>
> So as a client/server development tool.
> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
> that would be competitive?
>
> -- 
> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>
>
> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message 
> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>> I'll start with this..
>>
>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to competition 
>> between VS and PB. In order to compete, you have to be in the same race 
>> and PB is not and has not been since .Net was created over 6 years ago. 
>> Although they both roughly allow you to create applications, they each 
>> allow you to go about the process in completely different ways.
>> Define what competition means to Sybase? Because from where I'm sitting I 
>> see..1) More .Net framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like 
>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB IDE. All of those 
>> kinda say VS and MS have won. How can you say you want to compete with 
>> something that will soon be at the core of your IDE?
>>
>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side comparison will 
>> confirm that PB is no where close. The  way the die-hards make it "seem" 
>> close is by lopping off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not 
>> important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much we normally 
>> disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net) are general purpose 
>> programming tools..PB is a client/server programming tool. I feel that 
>> until that changes, there is no way to do a comparison.
>>
>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew it. If DW.Net had 
>> release with 1) a fully managed implementation and 2) ADO.Net support - 
>> they might have had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the 
>> world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a competitive 
>> product when Telerik RAD controls are being used by DWs when they go to a 
>> web form? Telerik is a direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What 
>> is that all about?
>>
>> If you really want to examine where the competition point is...I would 
>> check the differences between what Sybase Engineering has done vs. the 
>> 2500+ folks on the MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at 
>> beating that many heads with that many man hours by finding..
>>
>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already 
>>> does.
>>
>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how to follow and 
>> stay close behind. Its the best option right now until maybe a better 
>> option presents itself down the road.
>>
>> Troy
>>
>>
>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>> Blah blah blah
>>>
>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how many
>>> times...
>>>
>>> The DataWindow.
>>>
>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>
>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>
>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
>>> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
>>> Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
>>> the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
>>> seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and I've
>>> looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool
>>> (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
>>>
>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>
>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>
>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>
>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>
>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>
>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already 
>>> does.
>>>
>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>> to the litmus test...
>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?
>
> 

That may require a rewrite of the product, the way Microsoft
did to Vb net. I don't think Sybase can afford to do that.

Regards,
SS

> Ok, I'm done in this thread after this...
>
> If you want to fix PB you can start with the PB 11 .Net
> unsupported list you find in the help. For each one, ask
> yourself "why" does this exist. Then look at what it takes
> to fix them. Then realize why other people do these and
> Sybase doesn't. Go through enough of them and you will see
> just how far behind the product is and that although it
> does things other don't..others decided on a more viable
> solution. Put simply. If others wanted to do those unique
> things PB does - they would. The fact that they don't
> should bother you as it does me.
>
> > We've been talking for years about the "data
> > intelligence" of the  DataWindow,
> > tracking the user's modifications with item status,
> > automatically issuing the SQL, stored procedure calls
> > (and now Web Service calls) for update, insert, delete
> > without even a template being required of the developer.
> > What do you know PowerBuilder still does for you that
> others don't?
>
> Great lesson in the tradeoffs of dependency in that
> discussion. Also a great example of something PBers call a
> win that others call a travesty in software development.
> That's why I don't think you will find what you seek
> asking these type questions. They just go about software
> development differently in almost every approach to all
> facets of it. What you see as "competition" on a
> feature..really isn't. Its a totally different approach in
> most cases.
>
> Troy
> I get cranky towards the holidays.

I think "rewrite of the product" is exactly what needs to take place.  The 
real
question is when and how.  Will the user base still exist when the rewrite 
takes
place or will the effort be too late.


<SS> wrote in message news:4767077f.6688.1681692777@sybase.com...
> That may require a rewrite of the product, the way Microsoft
> did to Vb net. I don't think Sybase can afford to do that.
>
> Regards,
> SS
>
>> Ok, I'm done in this thread after this...
>>
>> If you want to fix PB you can start with the PB 11 .Net
>> unsupported list you find in the help. For each one, ask
>> yourself "why" does this exist. Then look at what it takes
>> to fix them. Then realize why other people do these and
>> Sybase doesn't. Go through enough of them and you will see
>> just how far behind the product is and that although it
>> does things other don't..others decided on a more viable
>> solution. Put simply. If others wanted to do those unique
>> things PB does - they would. The fact that they don't
>> should bother you as it does me.
>>
>> > We've been talking for years about the "data
>> > intelligence" of the  DataWindow,
>> > tracking the user's modifications with item status,
>> > automatically issuing the SQL, stored procedure calls
>> > (and now Web Service calls) for update, insert, delete
>> > without even a template being required of the developer.
>> > What do you know PowerBuilder still does for you that
>> others don't?
>>
>> Great lesson in the tradeoffs of dependency in that
>> discussion. Also a great example of something PBers call a
>> win that others call a travesty in software development.
>> That's why I don't think you will find what you seek
>> asking these type questions. They just go about software
>> development differently in almost every approach to all
>> facets of it. What you see as "competition" on a
>> feature..really isn't. Its a totally different approach in
>> most cases.
>>
>> Troy
>> I get cranky towards the holidays. 

Well, that's what Microsoft thought about their operating system, and the 
result was Vista. Opinions are mixed, especially for business users. And 
VB.NET is a big leap from VB6 - IMHO PB missed a big opportunity to convert 
some developers/shops on that one. The time required to do it right 
guarantees you will be way behind the curve.

"Tyler Cruse" <tcruse@trlx.com> wrote in message 
news:47673ea2$1@forums-1-dub...
>I think "rewrite of the product" is exactly what needs to take place.  The 
>real
> question is when and how.  Will the user base still exist when the rewrite 
> takes
> place or will the effort be too late.
>
>
> <SS> wrote in message news:4767077f.6688.1681692777@sybase.com...
>> That may require a rewrite of the product, the way Microsoft
>> did to Vb net. I don't think Sybase can afford to do that.
>>
>> Regards,
>> SS
>>
>>> Ok, I'm done in this thread after this...
>>>
>>> If you want to fix PB you can start with the PB 11 .Net
>>> unsupported list you find in the help. For each one, ask
>>> yourself "why" does this exist. Then look at what it takes
>>> to fix them. Then realize why other people do these and
>>> Sybase doesn't. Go through enough of them and you will see
>>> just how far behind the product is and that although it
>>> does things other don't..others decided on a more viable
>>> solution. Put simply. If others wanted to do those unique
>>> things PB does - they would. The fact that they don't
>>> should bother you as it does me.
>>>
>>> > We've been talking for years about the "data
>>> > intelligence" of the  DataWindow,
>>> > tracking the user's modifications with item status,
>>> > automatically issuing the SQL, stored procedure calls
>>> > (and now Web Service calls) for update, insert, delete
>>> > without even a template being required of the developer.
>>> > What do you know PowerBuilder still does for you that
>>> others don't?
>>>
>>> Great lesson in the tradeoffs of dependency in that
>>> discussion. Also a great example of something PBers call a
>>> win that others call a travesty in software development.
>>> That's why I don't think you will find what you seek
>>> asking these type questions. They just go about software
>>> development differently in almost every approach to all
>>> facets of it. What you see as "competition" on a
>>> feature..really isn't. Its a totally different approach in
>>> most cases.
>>>
>>> Troy
>>> I get cranky towards the holidays.
>
> 

I think your analogy is a little off here.  Vista is a problem 
specifically because it isn't a rewrite.  The rewrite was Windows XP, 
which finally integrated the UNIX like kernel in to the mainline OS 
(rather than having Windows 98 and Windows NT).

The problem with redesigns like this one is time.  If we started such a 
project, it would take several years to complete (minimum).  Our PB 
audience has a lot of stuff currently in production, and I don't think 
they would be happy with a multi-year hiatus in any development.



Jonathan

Jerry Siegel [TeamSybase] wrote:
> Well, that's what Microsoft thought about their operating system, and the 
> result was Vista. Opinions are mixed, especially for business users. And 
> VB.NET is a big leap from VB6 - IMHO PB missed a big opportunity to convert 
> some developers/shops on that one. The time required to do it right 
> guarantees you will be way behind the curve.
> 
> "Tyler Cruse" <tcruse@trlx.com> wrote in message 
> news:47673ea2$1@forums-1-dub...
>> I think "rewrite of the product" is exactly what needs to take place.  The 
>> real
>> question is when and how.  Will the user base still exist when the rewrite 
>> takes
>> place or will the effort be too late.
>>
>>
>> <SS> wrote in message news:4767077f.6688.1681692777@sybase.com...
>>> That may require a rewrite of the product, the way Microsoft
>>> did to Vb net. I don't think Sybase can afford to do that.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> SS
>>>
>>>> Ok, I'm done in this thread after this...
>>>>
>>>> If you want to fix PB you can start with the PB 11 .Net
>>>> unsupported list you find in the help. For each one, ask
>>>> yourself "why" does this exist. Then look at what it takes
>>>> to fix them. Then realize why other people do these and
>>>> Sybase doesn't. Go through enough of them and you will see
>>>> just how far behind the product is and that although it
>>>> does things other don't..others decided on a more viable
>>>> solution. Put simply. If others wanted to do those unique
>>>> things PB does - they would. The fact that they don't
>>>> should bother you as it does me.
>>>>
>>>>> We've been talking for years about the "data
>>>>> intelligence" of the  DataWindow,
>>>>> tracking the user's modifications with item status,
>>>>> automatically issuing the SQL, stored procedure calls
>>>>> (and now Web Service calls) for update, insert, delete
>>>>> without even a template being required of the developer.
>>>>> What do you know PowerBuilder still does for you that
>>>> others don't?
>>>>
>>>> Great lesson in the tradeoffs of dependency in that
>>>> discussion. Also a great example of something PBers call a
>>>> win that others call a travesty in software development.
>>>> That's why I don't think you will find what you seek
>>>> asking these type questions. They just go about software
>>>> development differently in almost every approach to all
>>>> facets of it. What you see as "competition" on a
>>>> feature..really isn't. Its a totally different approach in
>>>> most cases.
>>>>
>>>> Troy
>>>> I get cranky towards the holidays.
>>
> 
> 

> I think the correct question is "what can be done to make PB a better tool 
> for the subset of applications where it
> makes sense?".

Thanks for the perspective Tyler.

Since you believe most PowerBuilder developers
now have VS as an additional regularly-used tool,
how can we work to have that to your advantage?

In addition to DataWindow .NET, do you see yourself
making use of the NVO deployment capabilities as
..NET Assemblies and .NET Web Services?
Can we improve that capability to make it more useful
for heavy lifting of data access/manipulation/persistence?

-- 
John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist


"Tyler Cruse" <tcruse@trlx.com> wrote in message 
news:476694fd$1@forums-1-dub...
> PB is a client/server tool (with the client possibily being browser 
> based). This is something that has always been
> true.  So, to think that PB and VS are competors for most projects is not 
> true.  There are numerous places where
> PB is just not a good fit.  It is one tool in a programmers toolbox, 
> hopefully not the only one.  PB will never
> replace VS (and language support c, c++, c#, vb.net).
>
> In fact I think it would be difficult to find any PB programmer that does 
> not also have VS installed on this/her development
> workstation.  I know of few PB projects that do not also have at lease 
> some code from other sources.
>
> So, looking for something to allow PB to win over VS users is not a valid 
> question.
>
> I think the correct question is "what can be done to make PB a better tool 
> for the subset of applications where it
> makes sense?".
>
> 1) Fully managed code, reduction of the PB runtime to a very small .dll 
> that can be copied to the installation directory (no global
> cache requirement) and no extra install of pb runtime.
> 2) Access to WPF componets (windows, layout panels, controls, etc) using a 
> very cleaver painter that will make layout easy and still
> provide full functionality
> 3) Really good add-on support (e.g. RTF (TextEdit), Image control (LEAD 
> TOOLS), graphing package, report display (Crystal
> Reports?) included with PB license.
> 4) Really good support for third party .net controls and assemblies writen 
> outside of PB
>
> It makes no difference to me if this is done inside a VS IDE or a PB only 
> IDE.  What ever the implementation, it
> must allow creation of client/server (and WEB) applications faster than VS 
> studio alone, it must produce applications
> that perform better than VS alone, and it must fully support MS Sql 
> Server. Also, it must keep up with MS new
> releases of OS, dot Net, and SQL Server, not lag behind 6 mo or longer.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
> news:4762cff9$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that will soon be at 
>>>> the core of your IDE?
>>
>> By adding value.
>>
>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only meant as
>> one example to jog discussion, but has arguably muddied the water now.
>>
>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for something new
>> to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors have...and of course there's
>> more than one in 2007 and beyond.
>>
>> So as a client/server development tool.
>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>> that would be competitive?
>>
>> -- 
>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>
>>
>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message 
>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>> I'll start with this..
>>>
>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to competition 
>>> between VS and PB. In order to compete, you have to be in the same race 
>>> and PB is not and has not been since .Net was created over 6 years ago. 
>>> Although they both roughly allow you to create applications, they each 
>>> allow you to go about the process in completely different ways.
>>> Define what competition means to Sybase? Because from where I'm sitting 
>>> I see..1) More .Net framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like 
>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB IDE. All of 
>>> those kinda say VS and MS have won. How can you say you want to compete 
>>> with something that will soon be at the core of your IDE?
>>>
>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side comparison will 
>>> confirm that PB is no where close. The  way the die-hards make it "seem" 
>>> close is by lopping off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not 
>>> important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much we normally 
>>> disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net) are general purpose 
>>> programming tools..PB is a client/server programming tool. I feel that 
>>> until that changes, there is no way to do a comparison.
>>>
>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew it. If DW.Net had 
>>> release with 1) a fully managed implementation and 2) ADO.Net support - 
>>> they might have had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the 
>>> world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a competitive 
>>> product when Telerik RAD controls are being used by DWs when they go to 
>>> a web form? Telerik is a direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. 
>>> What is that all about?
>>>
>>> If you really want to examine where the competition point is...I would 
>>> check the differences between what Sybase Engineering has done vs. the 
>>> 2500+ folks on the MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at 
>>> beating that many heads with that many man hours by finding..
>>>
>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already 
>>>> does.
>>>
>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how to follow and 
>>> stay close behind. Its the best option right now until maybe a better 
>>> option presents itself down the road.
>>>
>>> Troy
>>>
>>>
>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>
>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how many
>>>> times...
>>>>
>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>
>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>
>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>
>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
>>>> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
>>>> Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
>>>> the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
>>>> seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and I've
>>>> looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool
>>>> (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
>>>>
>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>
>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>
>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>
>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>
>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>
>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already 
>>>> does.
>>>>
>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?
>>
>>
>
> 

> 1) Fully managed code...

We're on our way. How critical do you feel this is?

> 2) Access to WPF componets (windows, layout panels, controls, etc) using a 
> very cleaver painter that will make layout easy and still
> provide full functionality

This is part of what we're working on for PowerBuilder 12.

> 3) Really good add-on support (e.g. RTF (TextEdit), Image control (LEAD 
> TOOLS), graphing package, report display (Crystal
> Reports?) included with PB license.

What would you like to see that's better than our current
OLE/OCX/ActiveX support? Do you feel add-ons would
increase capabilities and/or productivity?

> 4) Really good support for third party .net controls and assemblies writen 
> outside of PB

How close do you feel we are with PowerBuilder 11 on this?

> Also, it must keep up with MS new
> releases of OS, dot Net, and SQL Server, not lag behind 6 mo or longer.

How critical do you genuinely feel this is?
The sooner the better, yes, but how agile do you feel we must be?

-- 
John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist


"Tyler Cruse" <tcruse@trlx.com> wrote in message 
news:476694fd$1@forums-1-dub...
> PB is a client/server tool (with the client possibily being browser 
> based). This is something that has always been
> true.  So, to think that PB and VS are competors for most projects is not 
> true.  There are numerous places where
> PB is just not a good fit.  It is one tool in a programmers toolbox, 
> hopefully not the only one.  PB will never
> replace VS (and language support c, c++, c#, vb.net).
>
> In fact I think it would be difficult to find any PB programmer that does 
> not also have VS installed on this/her development
> workstation.  I know of few PB projects that do not also have at lease 
> some code from other sources.
>
> So, looking for something to allow PB to win over VS users is not a valid 
> question.
>
> I think the correct question is "what can be done to make PB a better tool 
> for the subset of applications where it
> makes sense?".
>
> 1) Fully managed code, reduction of the PB runtime to a very small .dll 
> that can be copied to the installation directory (no global
> cache requirement) and no extra install of pb runtime.
> 2) Access to WPF componets (windows, layout panels, controls, etc) using a 
> very cleaver painter that will make layout easy and still
> provide full functionality
> 3) Really good add-on support (e.g. RTF (TextEdit), Image control (LEAD 
> TOOLS), graphing package, report display (Crystal
> Reports?) included with PB license.
> 4) Really good support for third party .net controls and assemblies writen 
> outside of PB
>
> It makes no difference to me if this is done inside a VS IDE or a PB only 
> IDE.  What ever the implementation, it
> must allow creation of client/server (and WEB) applications faster than VS 
> studio alone, it must produce applications
> that perform better than VS alone, and it must fully support MS Sql 
> Server. Also, it must keep up with MS new
> releases of OS, dot Net, and SQL Server, not lag behind 6 mo or longer.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
> news:4762cff9$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that will soon be at 
>>>> the core of your IDE?
>>
>> By adding value.
>>
>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only meant as
>> one example to jog discussion, but has arguably muddied the water now.
>>
>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for something new
>> to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors have...and of course there's
>> more than one in 2007 and beyond.
>>
>> So as a client/server development tool.
>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>> that would be competitive?
>>
>> -- 
>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>
>>
>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message 
>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>> I'll start with this..
>>>
>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to competition 
>>> between VS and PB. In order to compete, you have to be in the same race 
>>> and PB is not and has not been since .Net was created over 6 years ago. 
>>> Although they both roughly allow you to create applications, they each 
>>> allow you to go about the process in completely different ways.
>>> Define what competition means to Sybase? Because from where I'm sitting 
>>> I see..1) More .Net framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like 
>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB IDE. All of 
>>> those kinda say VS and MS have won. How can you say you want to compete 
>>> with something that will soon be at the core of your IDE?
>>>
>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side comparison will 
>>> confirm that PB is no where close. The  way the die-hards make it "seem" 
>>> close is by lopping off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not 
>>> important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much we normally 
>>> disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net) are general purpose 
>>> programming tools..PB is a client/server programming tool. I feel that 
>>> until that changes, there is no way to do a comparison.
>>>
>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew it. If DW.Net had 
>>> release with 1) a fully managed implementation and 2) ADO.Net support - 
>>> they might have had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the 
>>> world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a competitive 
>>> product when Telerik RAD controls are being used by DWs when they go to 
>>> a web form? Telerik is a direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. 
>>> What is that all about?
>>>
>>> If you really want to examine where the competition point is...I would 
>>> check the differences between what Sybase Engineering has done vs. the 
>>> 2500+ folks on the MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at 
>>> beating that many heads with that many man hours by finding..
>>>
>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already 
>>>> does.
>>>
>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how to follow and 
>>> stay close behind. Its the best option right now until maybe a better 
>>> option presents itself down the road.
>>>
>>> Troy
>>>
>>>
>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>
>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how many
>>>> times...
>>>>
>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>
>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>
>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>
>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
>>>> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
>>>> Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
>>>> the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
>>>> seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and I've
>>>> looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool
>>>> (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
>>>>
>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>
>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>
>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>
>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>
>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>
>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already 
>>>> does.
>>>>
>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?
>>
>>
>
> 

Allow coding directly in C# within the PB script painter.

Two ways to do this:

Allow C# within the IF PBDOTNET block

Event/Function property 'Language' that defaults to PBScript. Then we could 
change it to C# and code the entire event or function in C#.

If I want to copy a code example from a website, currently I have to 
translate it to PBScript manually. The compiler then translates it from 
PBScript to C#. That is two unnecessary tasks that probably result in C# 
code that is not exactly what I wanted it to be.

This would also be great for Webforms if I could specify Javascript or 
VBScript for the language on events, rowfocuschanged for example. This would 
go a long way to eliminate Webform's postback issues.


"John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
news:4767db38@forums-1-dub...
>> I think the correct question is "what can be done to make PB a better 
>> tool for the subset of applications where it
>> makes sense?".
>
> Thanks for the perspective Tyler.
>
> Since you believe most PowerBuilder developers
> now have VS as an additional regularly-used tool,
> how can we work to have that to your advantage?
>
> In addition to DataWindow .NET, do you see yourself
> making use of the NVO deployment capabilities as
> .NET Assemblies and .NET Web Services?
> Can we improve that capability to make it more useful
> for heavy lifting of data access/manipulation/persistence?
>
> -- 
> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>
>
> "Tyler Cruse" <tcruse@trlx.com> wrote in message 
> news:476694fd$1@forums-1-dub...
>> PB is a client/server tool (with the client possibily being browser 
>> based). This is something that has always been
>> true.  So, to think that PB and VS are competors for most projects is not 
>> true.  There are numerous places where
>> PB is just not a good fit.  It is one tool in a programmers toolbox, 
>> hopefully not the only one.  PB will never
>> replace VS (and language support c, c++, c#, vb.net).
>>
>> In fact I think it would be difficult to find any PB programmer that does 
>> not also have VS installed on this/her development
>> workstation.  I know of few PB projects that do not also have at lease 
>> some code from other sources.
>>
>> So, looking for something to allow PB to win over VS users is not a valid 
>> question.
>>
>> I think the correct question is "what can be done to make PB a better 
>> tool for the subset of applications where it
>> makes sense?".
>>
>> 1) Fully managed code, reduction of the PB runtime to a very small .dll 
>> that can be copied to the installation directory (no global
>> cache requirement) and no extra install of pb runtime.
>> 2) Access to WPF componets (windows, layout panels, controls, etc) using 
>> a very cleaver painter that will make layout easy and still
>> provide full functionality
>> 3) Really good add-on support (e.g. RTF (TextEdit), Image control (LEAD 
>> TOOLS), graphing package, report display (Crystal
>> Reports?) included with PB license.
>> 4) Really good support for third party .net controls and assemblies 
>> writen outside of PB
>>
>> It makes no difference to me if this is done inside a VS IDE or a PB only 
>> IDE.  What ever the implementation, it
>> must allow creation of client/server (and WEB) applications faster than 
>> VS studio alone, it must produce applications
>> that perform better than VS alone, and it must fully support MS Sql 
>> Server. Also, it must keep up with MS new
>> releases of OS, dot Net, and SQL Server, not lag behind 6 mo or longer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
>> news:4762cff9$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that will soon be 
>>>>> at the core of your IDE?
>>>
>>> By adding value.
>>>
>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only meant as
>>> one example to jog discussion, but has arguably muddied the water now.
>>>
>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for something new
>>> to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors have...and of course there's
>>> more than one in 2007 and beyond.
>>>
>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>> that would be competitive?
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>
>>>
>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message 
>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>
>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to competition 
>>>> between VS and PB. In order to compete, you have to be in the same race 
>>>> and PB is not and has not been since .Net was created over 6 years ago. 
>>>> Although they both roughly allow you to create applications, they each 
>>>> allow you to go about the process in completely different ways.
>>>> Define what competition means to Sybase? Because from where I'm sitting 
>>>> I see..1) More .Net framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like 
>>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB IDE. All of 
>>>> those kinda say VS and MS have won. How can you say you want to compete 
>>>> with something that will soon be at the core of your IDE?
>>>>
>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side comparison 
>>>> will confirm that PB is no where close. The  way the die-hards make it 
>>>> "seem" close is by lopping off features of VS and .Net that they feel 
>>>> are not important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much we 
>>>> normally disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net) are general purpose 
>>>> programming tools..PB is a client/server programming tool. I feel that 
>>>> until that changes, there is no way to do a comparison.
>>>>
>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew it. If DW.Net 
>>>> had release with 1) a fully managed implementation and 2) ADO.Net 
>>>> support - they might have had a shot at the ComponentOne and 
>>>> Infragistics of the world. But once again, how do you exactly say you 
>>>> have a competitive product when Telerik RAD controls are being used by 
>>>> DWs when they go to a web form? Telerik is a direct competitor of 
>>>> DW.Net and the others. What is that all about?
>>>>
>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition point is...I would 
>>>> check the differences between what Sybase Engineering has done vs. the 
>>>> 2500+ folks on the MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot 
>>>> at beating that many heads with that many man hours by finding..
>>>>
>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already 
>>>>> does.
>>>>
>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how to follow and 
>>>> stay close behind. Its the best option right now until maybe a better 
>>>> option presents itself down the road.
>>>>
>>>> Troy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>
>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how many
>>>>> times...
>>>>>
>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>
>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>
>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>
>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
>>>>> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
>>>>> Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
>>>>> the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
>>>>> seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and I've
>>>>> looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool
>>>>> (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
>>>>>
>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>
>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>
>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>
>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already 
>>>>> does.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> 

> That may require a rewrite of the product, the way Microsoft
> did to Vb net. I don't think Sybase can afford to do that.

Aside from teh resource issue for doing that, the resources
and time we've expnded in developing PowerBuilder 11 are in great
part due to preserving a migration path for our customers.

Of course there's a valid debate whether MS made the right
decision in arguably not providing a migration path
for its VB6 customers, but we decided we had to.

-- 
John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist


<SS> wrote in message news:4767077f.6688.1681692777@sybase.com...
> That may require a rewrite of the product, the way Microsoft
> did to Vb net. I don't think Sybase can afford to do that.
>
> Regards,
> SS
>
>> Ok, I'm done in this thread after this...
>>
>> If you want to fix PB you can start with the PB 11 .Net
>> unsupported list you find in the help. For each one, ask
>> yourself "why" does this exist. Then look at what it takes
>> to fix them. Then realize why other people do these and
>> Sybase doesn't. Go through enough of them and you will see
>> just how far behind the product is and that although it
>> does things other don't..others decided on a more viable
>> solution. Put simply. If others wanted to do those unique
>> things PB does - they would. The fact that they don't
>> should bother you as it does me.
>>
>> > We've been talking for years about the "data
>> > intelligence" of the  DataWindow,
>> > tracking the user's modifications with item status,
>> > automatically issuing the SQL, stored procedure calls
>> > (and now Web Service calls) for update, insert, delete
>> > without even a template being required of the developer.
>> > What do you know PowerBuilder still does for you that
>> others don't?
>>
>> Great lesson in the tradeoffs of dependency in that
>> discussion. Also a great example of something PBers call a
>> win that others call a travesty in software development.
>> That's why I don't think you will find what you seek
>> asking these type questions. They just go about software
>> development differently in almost every approach to all
>> facets of it. What you see as "competition" on a
>> feature..really isn't. Its a totally different approach in
>> most cases.
>>
>> Troy
>> I get cranky towards the holidays. 

Thanks for the response Greg.
Are you in production or close to production with
any of your applications using PowerBuilder 11?

-- 
John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist


"GregD" <greg@pdccorpnospam.com> wrote in message 
news:47630cc7$1@forums-1-dub...
>I think the ability to deploy a Win32 application to Web Form or Windows 
>Form/Smart client by changing targets is tremendous.  I am sure someone 
>will correct me, but I believe Visual Studio does not do this. I realize 
>some code modifications in PB are needed to make things run smoothly, but 
>it really has not been that difficult.
>
> Regards,
>
> GregD
>
>
> "John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
> news:4762eafb$1@forums-1-dub...
>> Maybe it would be helpful to start a sub-thread...
>>
>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>> does PowerBuilder still have
>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>
>> We've been talking for years about the "data intelligence" of the 
>> DataWindow,
>> tracking the user's modifications with item status, automatically issuing
>> the SQL, stored procedure calls (and now Web Service calls) for
>> update, insert, delete without even a template being required of the
>> developer.
>>
>> ...But now some of you have recognized that we do have
>> some competition out there for this feature.
>>
>> What do you know PowerBuilder still does for you that others don't?
>> -- 
>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>
>>
>> "John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
>> news:4762b160$1@forums-1-dub...
>>> Blah blah blah
>>>
>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how many
>>> times...
>>>
>>> The DataWindow.
>>>
>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>
>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>
>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
>>> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
>>> Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
>>> the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
>>> seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and I've
>>> looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool
>>> (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
>>>
>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>
>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>
>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>
>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>
>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>
>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already 
>>> does.
>>>
>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>> to the litmus test...
>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?
>>> -- 
>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> 

as for the datawindow...dw.net that is.

allow it to be populated from a collection of objects.

Reason.

More and more third party .net controls return a collection or list of 
objects.  It would be nice to be able to directly load a datawindow with 
this information for presentation.  For example, I use a third party fax 
object bulk faxing. When I need to show the user what is in the sending 
buffer, the fax control returns a collection of fax objects.  The only way 
to show the user this information is to 1. create an external datawindow, 
loop through the fax object, read each property and write it to the 
datawindow.  or 2.  simple use a datagrid view.

What would be nice is to be able to create something like an 'external 
datawindow'... but be able to select an OBJECT as source, present me with a 
list of properties from the object, select which ones I want to include, 
build my datawindow for me.  Now, if you can not read the objects, let me 
manual build the mapping - objectA.PropertyC = ColumnB type Numeric ; 
objectA.PropertyD = ColumnT type DateTime and so on.

Now, in VS I could do something like ...

dwControl1.BindtoObjectCollection(Faxes)

.... the dw would wire up with the collection of faxes I have ...

.... if I change a value in the dw control, the value is writen to the 
corresponding fax object in the collection ... this communication should be 
striaght forward.

.... if I change the fax object in the collection, the value would change in 
the Datawindow ... harder to do / program ... however, could be done with 
listeners and so on.

This is something that I have been working on, building a generic template 
to allow me to bind a single collection of objects (and properties) and have 
them populate a datawindow.  For one-of's this is pretty straight forward, 
but a bit of coding - doable, but a bit of coding.  If the dw.net control 
could hide this from me, it would be very nice.

Thanks
Jeff

PS: Now if the fax object contained collections of other objects (ie phone 
numbers), I would not expect the datawindow to handle this (unless I could 
build a dw format - nested dw's - to mirror the objects structure, then 
maybe).

"John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
news:4767db38@forums-1-dub...
>> I think the correct question is "what can be done to make PB a better 
>> tool for the subset of applications where it
>> makes sense?".
>
> Thanks for the perspective Tyler.
>
> Since you believe most PowerBuilder developers
> now have VS as an additional regularly-used tool,
> how can we work to have that to your advantage?
>
> In addition to DataWindow .NET, do you see yourself
> making use of the NVO deployment capabilities as
> .NET Assemblies and .NET Web Services?
> Can we improve that capability to make it more useful
> for heavy lifting of data access/manipulation/persistence?
>
> -- 
> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>
>
> "Tyler Cruse" <tcruse@trlx.com> wrote in message 
> news:476694fd$1@forums-1-dub...
>> PB is a client/server tool (with the client possibily being browser 
>> based). This is something that has always been
>> true.  So, to think that PB and VS are competors for most projects is not 
>> true.  There are numerous places where
>> PB is just not a good fit.  It is one tool in a programmers toolbox, 
>> hopefully not the only one.  PB will never
>> replace VS (and language support c, c++, c#, vb.net).
>>
>> In fact I think it would be difficult to find any PB programmer that does 
>> not also have VS installed on this/her development
>> workstation.  I know of few PB projects that do not also have at lease 
>> some code from other sources.
>>
>> So, looking for something to allow PB to win over VS users is not a valid 
>> question.
>>
>> I think the correct question is "what can be done to make PB a better 
>> tool for the subset of applications where it
>> makes sense?".
>>
>> 1) Fully managed code, reduction of the PB runtime to a very small .dll 
>> that can be copied to the installation directory (no global
>> cache requirement) and no extra install of pb runtime.
>> 2) Access to WPF componets (windows, layout panels, controls, etc) using 
>> a very cleaver painter that will make layout easy and still
>> provide full functionality
>> 3) Really good add-on support (e.g. RTF (TextEdit), Image control (LEAD 
>> TOOLS), graphing package, report display (Crystal
>> Reports?) included with PB license.
>> 4) Really good support for third party .net controls and assemblies 
>> writen outside of PB
>>
>> It makes no difference to me if this is done inside a VS IDE or a PB only 
>> IDE.  What ever the implementation, it
>> must allow creation of client/server (and WEB) applications faster than 
>> VS studio alone, it must produce applications
>> that perform better than VS alone, and it must fully support MS Sql 
>> Server. Also, it must keep up with MS new
>> releases of OS, dot Net, and SQL Server, not lag behind 6 mo or longer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
>> news:4762cff9$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that will soon be 
>>>>> at the core of your IDE?
>>>
>>> By adding value.
>>>
>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only meant as
>>> one example to jog discussion, but has arguably muddied the water now.
>>>
>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for something new
>>> to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors have...and of course there's
>>> more than one in 2007 and beyond.
>>>
>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>> that would be competitive?
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>
>>>
>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message 
>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>
>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to competition 
>>>> between VS and PB. In order to compete, you have to be in the same race 
>>>> and PB is not and has not been since .Net was created over 6 years ago. 
>>>> Although they both roughly allow you to create applications, they each 
>>>> allow you to go about the process in completely different ways.
>>>> Define what competition means to Sybase? Because from where I'm sitting 
>>>> I see..1) More .Net framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like 
>>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB IDE. All of 
>>>> those kinda say VS and MS have won. How can you say you want to compete 
>>>> with something that will soon be at the core of your IDE?
>>>>
>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side comparison 
>>>> will confirm that PB is no where close. The  way the die-hards make it 
>>>> "seem" close is by lopping off features of VS and .Net that they feel 
>>>> are not important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much we 
>>>> normally disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net) are general purpose 
>>>> programming tools..PB is a client/server programming tool. I feel that 
>>>> until that changes, there is no way to do a comparison.
>>>>
>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew it. If DW.Net 
>>>> had release with 1) a fully managed implementation and 2) ADO.Net 
>>>> support - they might have had a shot at the ComponentOne and 
>>>> Infragistics of the world. But once again, how do you exactly say you 
>>>> have a competitive product when Telerik RAD controls are being used by 
>>>> DWs when they go to a web form? Telerik is a direct competitor of 
>>>> DW.Net and the others. What is that all about?
>>>>
>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition point is...I would 
>>>> check the differences between what Sybase Engineering has done vs. the 
>>>> 2500+ folks on the MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot 
>>>> at beating that many heads with that many man hours by finding..
>>>>
>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already 
>>>>> does.
>>>>
>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how to follow and 
>>>> stay close behind. Its the best option right now until maybe a better 
>>>> option presents itself down the road.
>>>>
>>>> Troy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>
>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how many
>>>>> times...
>>>>>
>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>
>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>
>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>
>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
>>>>> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
>>>>> Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
>>>>> the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
>>>>> seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and I've
>>>>> looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool
>>>>> (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
>>>>>
>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>
>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>
>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>
>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already 
>>>>> does.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> 

1 - for the dw.net ... very critical.

3 is hard to do ... what is important for you may not be import for others, 
and I for do not want to add cost to my PB license so others can enjoy 
crystal ... now for the image control ... LEAD is about 4,000 bucks - I 
doubt they would be willing to partner up with PB.  If you need the control, 
buy it.  Otherwise work around it.  Simple native support for TIF's would be 
nice ... viewing only.


"John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
news:4767dcbb@forums-1-dub...
>> 1) Fully managed code...
>
> We're on our way. How critical do you feel this is?
>
>> 2) Access to WPF componets (windows, layout panels, controls, etc) using 
>> a very cleaver painter that will make layout easy and still
>> provide full functionality
>
> This is part of what we're working on for PowerBuilder 12.
>
>> 3) Really good add-on support (e.g. RTF (TextEdit), Image control (LEAD 
>> TOOLS), graphing package, report display (Crystal
>> Reports?) included with PB license.
>
> What would you like to see that's better than our current
> OLE/OCX/ActiveX support? Do you feel add-ons would
> increase capabilities and/or productivity?
>
>> 4) Really good support for third party .net controls and assemblies 
>> writen outside of PB
>
> How close do you feel we are with PowerBuilder 11 on this?
>
>> Also, it must keep up with MS new
>> releases of OS, dot Net, and SQL Server, not lag behind 6 mo or longer.
>
> How critical do you genuinely feel this is?
> The sooner the better, yes, but how agile do you feel we must be?
>
> -- 
> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>
>
> "Tyler Cruse" <tcruse@trlx.com> wrote in message 
> news:476694fd$1@forums-1-dub...
>> PB is a client/server tool (with the client possibily being browser 
>> based). This is something that has always been
>> true.  So, to think that PB and VS are competors for most projects is not 
>> true.  There are numerous places where
>> PB is just not a good fit.  It is one tool in a programmers toolbox, 
>> hopefully not the only one.  PB will never
>> replace VS (and language support c, c++, c#, vb.net).
>>
>> In fact I think it would be difficult to find any PB programmer that does 
>> not also have VS installed on this/her development
>> workstation.  I know of few PB projects that do not also have at lease 
>> some code from other sources.
>>
>> So, looking for something to allow PB to win over VS users is not a valid 
>> question.
>>
>> I think the correct question is "what can be done to make PB a better 
>> tool for the subset of applications where it
>> makes sense?".
>>
>> 1) Fully managed code, reduction of the PB runtime to a very small .dll 
>> that can be copied to the installation directory (no global
>> cache requirement) and no extra install of pb runtime.
>> 2) Access to WPF componets (windows, layout panels, controls, etc) using 
>> a very cleaver painter that will make layout easy and still
>> provide full functionality
>> 3) Really good add-on support (e.g. RTF (TextEdit), Image control (LEAD 
>> TOOLS), graphing package, report display (Crystal
>> Reports?) included with PB license.
>> 4) Really good support for third party .net controls and assemblies 
>> writen outside of PB
>>
>> It makes no difference to me if this is done inside a VS IDE or a PB only 
>> IDE.  What ever the implementation, it
>> must allow creation of client/server (and WEB) applications faster than 
>> VS studio alone, it must produce applications
>> that perform better than VS alone, and it must fully support MS Sql 
>> Server. Also, it must keep up with MS new
>> releases of OS, dot Net, and SQL Server, not lag behind 6 mo or longer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
>> news:4762cff9$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that will soon be 
>>>>> at the core of your IDE?
>>>
>>> By adding value.
>>>
>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only meant as
>>> one example to jog discussion, but has arguably muddied the water now.
>>>
>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for something new
>>> to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors have...and of course there's
>>> more than one in 2007 and beyond.
>>>
>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>> that would be competitive?
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>
>>>
>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message 
>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>
>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to competition 
>>>> between VS and PB. In order to compete, you have to be in the same race 
>>>> and PB is not and has not been since .Net was created over 6 years ago. 
>>>> Although they both roughly allow you to create applications, they each 
>>>> allow you to go about the process in completely different ways.
>>>> Define what competition means to Sybase? Because from where I'm sitting 
>>>> I see..1) More .Net framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like 
>>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB IDE. All of 
>>>> those kinda say VS and MS have won. How can you say you want to compete 
>>>> with something that will soon be at the core of your IDE?
>>>>
>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side comparison 
>>>> will confirm that PB is no where close. The  way the die-hards make it 
>>>> "seem" close is by lopping off features of VS and .Net that they feel 
>>>> are not important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much we 
>>>> normally disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net) are general purpose 
>>>> programming tools..PB is a client/server programming tool. I feel that 
>>>> until that changes, there is no way to do a comparison.
>>>>
>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew it. If DW.Net 
>>>> had release with 1) a fully managed implementation and 2) ADO.Net 
>>>> support - they might have had a shot at the ComponentOne and 
>>>> Infragistics of the world. But once again, how do you exactly say you 
>>>> have a competitive product when Telerik RAD controls are being used by 
>>>> DWs when they go to a web form? Telerik is a direct competitor of 
>>>> DW.Net and the others. What is that all about?
>>>>
>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition point is...I would 
>>>> check the differences between what Sybase Engineering has done vs. the 
>>>> 2500+ folks on the MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot 
>>>> at beating that many heads with that many man hours by finding..
>>>>
>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already 
>>>>> does.
>>>>
>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how to follow and 
>>>> stay close behind. Its the best option right now until maybe a better 
>>>> option presents itself down the road.
>>>>
>>>> Troy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>
>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how many
>>>>> times...
>>>>>
>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>
>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>
>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>
>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
>>>>> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
>>>>> Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
>>>>> the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
>>>>> seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and I've
>>>>> looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool
>>>>> (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
>>>>>
>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>
>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>
>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>
>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already 
>>>>> does.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> 

But at somepoint don't the two need to merge?   I understand the
desire to cut and paste code, and in practice I agree with you.... I
am generally using VS.NET to get something to work first before I do
it in PB, which is a shame.   However, in PB you'll still have
PB-unique constructs like DW dot notation, etc... how do you 'mix' C#
and PowerScript in that regard?

Do we allow TWO ways to do things.. e.g., new AND CREATE?   Do we
relegate old stuff to a segregated namespace (ala VB?).

With the focus on bringing OLD applications forward, there are some
conflicting goals here.  C# makes perfect sense for NEW apps, but how
much work are you willing to do to old apps?  Should there be two
different options, perhaps?

On 18 Dec 2007 06:50:30 -0800, "Roland Smith [TeamSybase]"
<rsmith_at_trusthss_dot_com> wrote:

>Allow coding directly in C# within the PB script painter.
>
>Two ways to do this:
>
>Allow C# within the IF PBDOTNET block
>
>Event/Function property 'Language' that defaults to PBScript. Then we could 
>change it to C# and code the entire event or function in C#.
>
>If I want to copy a code example from a website, currently I have to 
>translate it to PBScript manually. The compiler then translates it from 
>PBScript to C#. That is two unnecessary tasks that probably result in C# 
>code that is not exactly what I wanted it to be.
>
>This would also be great for Webforms if I could specify Javascript or 
>VBScript for the language on events, rowfocuschanged for example. This would 
>go a long way to eliminate Webform's postback issues.
>
>
>"John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
>news:4767db38@forums-1-dub...
>>> I think the correct question is "what can be done to make PB a better 
>>> tool for the subset of applications where it
>>> makes sense?".
>>
>> Thanks for the perspective Tyler.
>>
>> Since you believe most PowerBuilder developers
>> now have VS as an additional regularly-used tool,
>> how can we work to have that to your advantage?
>>
>> In addition to DataWindow .NET, do you see yourself
>> making use of the NVO deployment capabilities as
>> .NET Assemblies and .NET Web Services?
>> Can we improve that capability to make it more useful
>> for heavy lifting of data access/manipulation/persistence?
>>
>> -- 
>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>
>>
>> "Tyler Cruse" <tcruse@trlx.com> wrote in message 
>> news:476694fd$1@forums-1-dub...
>>> PB is a client/server tool (with the client possibily being browser 
>>> based). This is something that has always been
>>> true.  So, to think that PB and VS are competors for most projects is not 
>>> true.  There are numerous places where
>>> PB is just not a good fit.  It is one tool in a programmers toolbox, 
>>> hopefully not the only one.  PB will never
>>> replace VS (and language support c, c++, c#, vb.net).
>>>
>>> In fact I think it would be difficult to find any PB programmer that does 
>>> not also have VS installed on this/her development
>>> workstation.  I know of few PB projects that do not also have at lease 
>>> some code from other sources.
>>>
>>> So, looking for something to allow PB to win over VS users is not a valid 
>>> question.
>>>
>>> I think the correct question is "what can be done to make PB a better 
>>> tool for the subset of applications where it
>>> makes sense?".
>>>
>>> 1) Fully managed code, reduction of the PB runtime to a very small .dll 
>>> that can be copied to the installation directory (no global
>>> cache requirement) and no extra install of pb runtime.
>>> 2) Access to WPF componets (windows, layout panels, controls, etc) using 
>>> a very cleaver painter that will make layout easy and still
>>> provide full functionality
>>> 3) Really good add-on support (e.g. RTF (TextEdit), Image control (LEAD 
>>> TOOLS), graphing package, report display (Crystal
>>> Reports?) included with PB license.
>>> 4) Really good support for third party .net controls and assemblies 
>>> writen outside of PB
>>>
>>> It makes no difference to me if this is done inside a VS IDE or a PB only 
>>> IDE.  What ever the implementation, it
>>> must allow creation of client/server (and WEB) applications faster than 
>>> VS studio alone, it must produce applications
>>> that perform better than VS alone, and it must fully support MS Sql 
>>> Server. Also, it must keep up with MS new
>>> releases of OS, dot Net, and SQL Server, not lag behind 6 mo or longer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
>>> news:4762cff9$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that will soon be 
>>>>>> at the core of your IDE?
>>>>
>>>> By adding value.
>>>>
>>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only meant as
>>>> one example to jog discussion, but has arguably muddied the water now.
>>>>
>>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for something new
>>>> to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors have...and of course there's
>>>> more than one in 2007 and beyond.
>>>>
>>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>>> that would be competitive?
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message 
>>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>>
>>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to competition 
>>>>> between VS and PB. In order to compete, you have to be in the same race 
>>>>> and PB is not and has not been since .Net was created over 6 years ago. 
>>>>> Although they both roughly allow you to create applications, they each 
>>>>> allow you to go about the process in completely different ways.
>>>>> Define what competition means to Sybase? Because from where I'm sitting 
>>>>> I see..1) More .Net framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like 
>>>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB IDE. All of 
>>>>> those kinda say VS and MS have won. How can you say you want to compete 
>>>>> with something that will soon be at the core of your IDE?
>>>>>
>>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side comparison 
>>>>> will confirm that PB is no where close. The  way the die-hards make it 
>>>>> "seem" close is by lopping off features of VS and .Net that they feel 
>>>>> are not important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much we 
>>>>> normally disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net) are general purpose 
>>>>> programming tools..PB is a client/server programming tool. I feel that 
>>>>> until that changes, there is no way to do a comparison.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew it. If DW.Net 
>>>>> had release with 1) a fully managed implementation and 2) ADO.Net 
>>>>> support - they might have had a shot at the ComponentOne and 
>>>>> Infragistics of the world. But once again, how do you exactly say you 
>>>>> have a competitive product when Telerik RAD controls are being used by 
>>>>> DWs when they go to a web form? Telerik is a direct competitor of 
>>>>> DW.Net and the others. What is that all about?
>>>>>
>>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition point is...I would 
>>>>> check the differences between what Sybase Engineering has done vs. the 
>>>>> 2500+ folks on the MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot 
>>>>> at beating that many heads with that many man hours by finding..
>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already 
>>>>>> does.
>>>>>
>>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how to follow and 
>>>>> stay close behind. Its the best option right now until maybe a better 
>>>>> option presents itself down the road.
>>>>>
>>>>> Troy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how many
>>>>>> times...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
>>>>>> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
>>>>>> Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
>>>>>> the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
>>>>>> seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and I've
>>>>>> looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool
>>>>>> (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already 
>>>>>> does.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> 
>

Crystal Reports: NO, NO.
Graphing Package: In built, WPF.
OLE/OCX/ActiveX alternatives are seeked.
..net controls support : YES

Lagging behind .NET release & unmanaged code:
We are replacing DW technology(not just PB) because PB and/or DW.NET doesn't 
support WPF & not managed.
It doesn't consume Object Source.
It doesn't support TDD.
It doesn't appreciate layered development (data access & presentation ).
It doesn't provide WPF controls .
Powerscript: there are no new programmers available.

Benefits:
The above is surpassing what the design power I get with DW designer.
That can be deployed in both windows & web.(i get this in a WPF environment: 
there are limitations as much as there are in DW).

vsv




"John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
news:4767dcbb@forums-1-dub...
>> 1) Fully managed code...
>
> We're on our way. How critical do you feel this is
>
>> 2) Access to WPF componets (windows, layout panels, controls, etc) using 
>> a very cleaver painter that will make layout easy and still
>> provide full functionality
>
> This is part of what we're working on for PowerBuilder 12.
>
>> 3) Really good add-on support (e.g. RTF (TextEdit), Image control (LEAD 
>> TOOLS), graphing package, report display (Crystal
>> Reports?) included with PB license.
>
> What would you like to see that's better than our current
> OLE/OCX/ActiveX support? Do you feel add-ons would
> increase capabilities and/or productivity?
>
>> 4) Really good support for third party .net controls and assemblies 
>> writen outside of PB
>
> How close do you feel we are with PowerBuilder 11 on this?
>
>> Also, it must keep up with MS new
>> releases of OS, dot Net, and SQL Server, not lag behind 6 mo or longer.
>
> How critical do you genuinely feel this is?
> The sooner the better, yes, but how agile do you feel we must be?
>
> -- 
> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>
>
> "Tyler Cruse" <tcruse@trlx.com> wrote in message 
> news:476694fd$1@forums-1-dub...
>> PB is a client/server tool (with the client possibily being browser 
>> based). This is something that has always been
>> true.  So, to think that PB and VS are competors for most projects is not 
>> true.  There are numerous places where
>> PB is just not a good fit.  It is one tool in a programmers toolbox, 
>> hopefully not the only one.  PB will never
>> replace VS (and language support c, c++, c#, vb.net).
>>
>> In fact I think it would be difficult to find any PB programmer that does 
>> not also have VS installed on this/her development
>> workstation.  I know of few PB projects that do not also have at lease 
>> some code from other sources.
>>
>> So, looking for something to allow PB to win over VS users is not a valid 
>> question.
>>
>> I think the correct question is "what can be done to make PB a better 
>> tool for the subset of applications where it
>> makes sense?".
>>
>> 1) Fully managed code, reduction of the PB runtime to a very small .dll 
>> that can be copied to the installation directory (no global
>> cache requirement) and no extra install of pb runtime.
>> 2) Access to WPF componets (windows, layout panels, controls, etc) using 
>> a very cleaver painter that will make layout easy and still
>> provide full functionality
>> 3) Really good add-on support (e.g. RTF (TextEdit), Image control (LEAD 
>> TOOLS), graphing package, report display (Crystal
>> Reports?) included with PB license.
>> 4) Really good support for third party .net controls and assemblies 
>> writen outside of PB
>>
>> It makes no difference to me if this is done inside a VS IDE or a PB only 
>> IDE.  What ever the implementation, it
>> must allow creation of client/server (and WEB) applications faster than 
>> VS studio alone, it must produce applications
>> that perform better than VS alone, and it must fully support MS Sql 
>> Server. Also, it must keep up with MS new
>> releases of OS, dot Net, and SQL Server, not lag behind 6 mo or longer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
>> news:4762cff9$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that will soon be 
>>>>> at the core of your IDE?
>>>
>>> By adding value.
>>>
>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only meant as
>>> one example to jog discussion, but has arguably muddied the water now.
>>>
>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for something new
>>> to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors have...and of course there's
>>> more than one in 2007 and beyond.
>>>
>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>> that would be competitive?
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>
>>>
>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message 
>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>
>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to competition 
>>>> between VS and PB. In order to compete, you have to be in the same race 
>>>> and PB is not and has not been since .Net was created over 6 years ago. 
>>>> Although they both roughly allow you to create applications, they each 
>>>> allow you to go about the process in completely different ways.
>>>> Define what competition means to Sybase? Because from where I'm sitting 
>>>> I see..1) More .Net framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like 
>>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB IDE. All of 
>>>> those kinda say VS and MS have won. How can you say you want to compete 
>>>> with something that will soon be at the core of your IDE?
>>>>
>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side comparison 
>>>> will confirm that PB is no where close. The  way the die-hards make it 
>>>> "seem" close is by lopping off features of VS and .Net that they feel 
>>>> are not important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much we 
>>>> normally disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net) are general purpose 
>>>> programming tools..PB is a client/server programming tool. I feel that 
>>>> until that changes, there is no way to do a comparison.
>>>>
>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew it. If DW.Net 
>>>> had release with 1) a fully managed implementation and 2) ADO.Net 
>>>> support - they might have had a shot at the ComponentOne and 
>>>> Infragistics of the world. But once again, how do you exactly say you 
>>>> have a competitive product when Telerik RAD controls are being used by 
>>>> DWs when they go to a web form? Telerik is a direct competitor of 
>>>> DW.Net and the others. What is that all about?
>>>>
>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition point is...I would 
>>>> check the differences between what Sybase Engineering has done vs. the 
>>>> 2500+ folks on the MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot 
>>>> at beating that many heads with that many man hours by finding..
>>>>
>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already 
>>>>> does.
>>>>
>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how to follow and 
>>>> stay close behind. Its the best option right now until maybe a better 
>>>> option presents itself down the road.
>>>>
>>>> Troy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>
>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how many
>>>>> times...
>>>>>
>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>
>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>
>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>
>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
>>>>> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
>>>>> Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
>>>>> the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
>>>>> seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and I've
>>>>> looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool
>>>>> (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
>>>>>
>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>
>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>
>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>
>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already 
>>>>> does.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> 

"John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
news:4767dcbb@forums-1-dub...
>> 1) Fully managed code...
>
> We're on our way. How critical do you feel this is?

Very important for all of the reasons that managed code is important. 
Memory and resource leakage prevention,
real native 64 bit executable, potential movement to other OS 
implementations of dot net framework, no need to
install things in global cache


>> 3) Really good add-on support (e.g. RTF (TextEdit), Image control (LEAD 
>> TOOLS), graphing package, report display (Crystal
>> Reports?) included with PB license.
>
> What would you like to see that's better than our current
> OLE/OCX/ActiveX support? Do you feel add-ons would
> increase capabilities and/or productivity?

An example: Lead Tools v14 only supports scanning via events, PB can not 
handle this.  Solution is to keep using previous
version (v12) of Lead Tools.


>> 4) Really good support for third party .net controls and assemblies 
>> writen outside of PB
>
> How close do you feel we are with PowerBuilder 11 on this?

Not very close.  No visual controls for one thing.  Should be able to open 
C# WinForm window with normal
open( w_window_name) command.  WinForm window should have access to all of 
the same PB functions.  Datastores
should export same interface as a dotNet dataset.  Not really sure that a 
datastore should not be a dotNet dataset.

In my case, I am only interested in Win Forms (vs Web Forms).  The tab 
control provides no access to padding and is much
larger hence will not fit on screen with out scrolling.  Many of the Visual 
User Objects do not work because of missing events (probably
ways to re-write).  However, when all is said why would I want to 1) Force 
an install of PB Runtime, 2) deliever a much larger set of files,
3) provider worse performance. 4) have something that does not look as good 
and takes longer to build.

PB 11 as an upgrade only provided SNC support and some minor DW 
improvements.  The dot Net deployment options are only
interesting as something in the future that may be helpful

>
>> Also, it must keep up with MS new
>> releases of OS, dot Net, and SQL Server, not lag behind 6 mo or longer.
>
Vista support is an example of too long
VS 2008 support is another example
64 bit support is yet another example

> How critical do you genuinely feel this is?
> The sooner the better, yes, but how agile do you feel we must be?
>
> -- 
> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>
>
> "Tyler Cruse" <tcruse@trlx.com> wrote in message 
> news:476694fd$1@forums-1-dub...
>> PB is a client/server tool (with the client possibily being browser 
>> based). This is something that has always been
>> true.  So, to think that PB and VS are competors for most projects is not 
>> true.  There are numerous places where
>> PB is just not a good fit.  It is one tool in a programmers toolbox, 
>> hopefully not the only one.  PB will never
>> replace VS (and language support c, c++, c#, vb.net).
>>
>> In fact I think it would be difficult to find any PB programmer that does 
>> not also have VS installed on this/her development
>> workstation.  I know of few PB projects that do not also have at lease 
>> some code from other sources.
>>
>> So, looking for something to allow PB to win over VS users is not a valid 
>> question.
>>
>> I think the correct question is "what can be done to make PB a better 
>> tool for the subset of applications where it
>> makes sense?".
>>
>> 1) Fully managed code, reduction of the PB runtime to a very small .dll 
>> that can be copied to the installation directory (no global
>> cache requirement) and no extra install of pb runtime.
>> 2) Access to WPF componets (windows, layout panels, controls, etc) using 
>> a very cleaver painter that will make layout easy and still
>> provide full functionality
>> 3) Really good add-on support (e.g. RTF (TextEdit), Image control (LEAD 
>> TOOLS), graphing package, report display (Crystal
>> Reports?) included with PB license.
>> 4) Really good support for third party .net controls and assemblies 
>> writen outside of PB
>>
>> It makes no difference to me if this is done inside a VS IDE or a PB only 
>> IDE.  What ever the implementation, it
>> must allow creation of client/server (and WEB) applications faster than 
>> VS studio alone, it must produce applications
>> that perform better than VS alone, and it must fully support MS Sql 
>> Server. Also, it must keep up with MS new
>> releases of OS, dot Net, and SQL Server, not lag behind 6 mo or longer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
>> news:4762cff9$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that will soon be 
>>>>> at the core of your IDE?
>>>
>>> By adding value.
>>>
>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only meant as
>>> one example to jog discussion, but has arguably muddied the water now.
>>>
>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for something new
>>> to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors have...and of course there's
>>> more than one in 2007 and beyond.
>>>
>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>> that would be competitive?
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>
>>>
>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message 
>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>
>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to competition 
>>>> between VS and PB. In order to compete, you have to be in the same race 
>>>> and PB is not and has not been since .Net was created over 6 years ago. 
>>>> Although they both roughly allow you to create applications, they each 
>>>> allow you to go about the process in completely different ways.
>>>> Define what competition means to Sybase? Because from where I'm sitting 
>>>> I see..1) More .Net framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like 
>>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB IDE. All of 
>>>> those kinda say VS and MS have won. How can you say you want to compete 
>>>> with something that will soon be at the core of your IDE?
>>>>
>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side comparison 
>>>> will confirm that PB is no where close. The  way the die-hards make it 
>>>> "seem" close is by lopping off features of VS and .Net that they feel 
>>>> are not important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much we 
>>>> normally disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net) are general purpose 
>>>> programming tools..PB is a client/server programming tool. I feel that 
>>>> until that changes, there is no way to do a comparison.
>>>>
>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew it. If DW.Net 
>>>> had release with 1) a fully managed implementation and 2) ADO.Net 
>>>> support - they might have had a shot at the ComponentOne and 
>>>> Infragistics of the world. But once again, how do you exactly say you 
>>>> have a competitive product when Telerik RAD controls are being used by 
>>>> DWs when they go to a web form? Telerik is a direct competitor of 
>>>> DW.Net and the others. What is that all about?
>>>>
>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition point is...I would 
>>>> check the differences between what Sybase Engineering has done vs. the 
>>>> 2500+ folks on the MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot 
>>>> at beating that many heads with that many man hours by finding..
>>>>
>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already 
>>>>> does.
>>>>
>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how to follow and 
>>>> stay close behind. Its the best option right now until maybe a better 
>>>> option presents itself down the road.
>>>>
>>>> Troy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>
>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how many
>>>>> times...
>>>>>
>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>
>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>
>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>
>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
>>>>> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
>>>>> Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
>>>>> the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
>>>>> seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and I've
>>>>> looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool
>>>>> (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
>>>>>
>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>
>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>
>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>
>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already 
>>>>> does.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> 

> 3 is hard to do ... what is important for you may not be import for 
> others, and I for do not want to add cost to my PB license so others can 
> enjoy crystal ... now for the image control ... LEAD is about 4,000 
> bucks - I doubt they would be willing to partner up with PB.  If you need 
> the control, buy it.  Otherwise work around it.  Simple native support for 
> TIF's would be nice ... viewing only.

Agreed, that everything can not be included with PB license.  However, PB 
must be
in a position that when you read the Lead Tools documentation that there are 
PB examples and
nice "PB xx is a supported language".  Sybase needs to take make the 
contacts to these
companies to make this happen.  Problably provide some support, provide some 
engineering
changes as required for these products, and give aways some PB licenses to 
these companies.
Just as Microsoft works with hardware and software vendors to see that 
things are ready
when new releases come out.

Certainly there are people that have not yet gotten on the Vista bandwagon. 
Among the people that I have
talked to that have used Vista for more than a few months, not a single one 
of the would ever go back to XP.

Now what I would like to see is a survey on where the VB6 development went.
How much went to VB.Net, c#, c++, PowerBuilder, or some WEB based tool.

I suspect a lot of it went to c#, but do not have any real data to support 
that theory.


"Jerry Siegel [TeamSybase]" <jNOsSPAMsiegel@yahoo!.com> wrote in message 
news:47674acf$1@forums-1-dub...
> Well, that's what Microsoft thought about their operating system, and the 
> result was Vista. Opinions are mixed, especially for business users. And 
> VB.NET is a big leap from VB6 - IMHO PB missed a big opportunity to 
> convert some developers/shops on that one. The time required to do it 
> right guarantees you will be way behind the curve.
>
> "Tyler Cruse" <tcruse@trlx.com> wrote in message 
> news:47673ea2$1@forums-1-dub...
>>I think "rewrite of the product" is exactly what needs to take place.  The 
>>real
>> question is when and how.  Will the user base still exist when the 
>> rewrite takes
>> place or will the effort be too late.
>>
>>
>> <SS> wrote in message news:4767077f.6688.1681692777@sybase.com...
>>> That may require a rewrite of the product, the way Microsoft
>>> did to Vb net. I don't think Sybase can afford to do that.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> SS
>>>
>>>> Ok, I'm done in this thread after this...
>>>>
>>>> If you want to fix PB you can start with the PB 11 .Net
>>>> unsupported list you find in the help. For each one, ask
>>>> yourself "why" does this exist. Then look at what it takes
>>>> to fix them. Then realize why other people do these and
>>>> Sybase doesn't. Go through enough of them and you will see
>>>> just how far behind the product is and that although it
>>>> does things other don't..others decided on a more viable
>>>> solution. Put simply. If others wanted to do those unique
>>>> things PB does - they would. The fact that they don't
>>>> should bother you as it does me.
>>>>
>>>> > We've been talking for years about the "data
>>>> > intelligence" of the  DataWindow,
>>>> > tracking the user's modifications with item status,
>>>> > automatically issuing the SQL, stored procedure calls
>>>> > (and now Web Service calls) for update, insert, delete
>>>> > without even a template being required of the developer.
>>>> > What do you know PowerBuilder still does for you that
>>>> others don't?
>>>>
>>>> Great lesson in the tradeoffs of dependency in that
>>>> discussion. Also a great example of something PBers call a
>>>> win that others call a travesty in software development.
>>>> That's why I don't think you will find what you seek
>>>> asking these type questions. They just go about software
>>>> development differently in almost every approach to all
>>>> facets of it. What you see as "competition" on a
>>>> feature..really isn't. Its a totally different approach in
>>>> most cases.
>>>>
>>>> Troy
>>>> I get cranky towards the holidays.
>>
>>
>
> 

I agree. One advantage PB has is its ability to play well with others: DBMS 
especially, but you can talk to any tool that uses standard API. The easier 
PB makes that, the better for both parties.

"Tyler Cruse" <tcruse@trlx.com> wrote in message 
news:47683a8f$1@forums-1-dub...
>> 3 is hard to do ... what is important for you may not be import for 
>> others, and I for do not want to add cost to my PB license so others can 
>> enjoy crystal ... now for the image control ... LEAD is about 4,000 
>> bucks - I doubt they would be willing to partner up with PB.  If you need 
>> the control, buy it.  Otherwise work around it.  Simple native support 
>> for TIF's would be nice ... viewing only.
>
> Agreed, that everything can not be included with PB license.  However, PB 
> must be
> in a position that when you read the Lead Tools documentation that there 
> are PB examples and
> nice "PB xx is a supported language".  Sybase needs to take make the 
> contacts to these
> companies to make this happen.  Problably provide some support, provide 
> some engineering
> changes as required for these products, and give aways some PB licenses to 
> these companies.
> Just as Microsoft works with hardware and software vendors to see that 
> things are ready
> when new releases come out.
>
>
>
>
>
> 

I'd like to offer an analogy that arguably breaks down
upon closer inspection, but here it is...

Let's say that x years from now my son joins
the track team because he likes to run.
After a number of weeks it becomes apparent to him
that he's not the fastest runner on the team...
....he becomes discouraged.

Let's say he feels he can come to me and voices his frustration.
I hope I have the insight to say something along the line of...

"You joined the team because you like to run.
Yes, this is disappointing that you're not winning,
but you still like running. Enjoy seeing your
personal best improve and gain the satisfaction
that you're competing...and competing respectably."

Now pardon the pompous Knute Rockne tone, but we
still enjoy running, competing, and we still
enjoy seeing PowerBuilder improve its ability
to serve our customers.

I want to thank all of you who've been, and will
continue to contribute to this thread and
future threads like it.
It gives us pause, food for thought, and
the raw material for bettering PowerBuilder.

-- 
John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist


"John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
news:4762b160$1@forums-1-dub...
> Blah blah blah
>
> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how many
> times...
>
> The DataWindow.
>
> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>
> This from one of our colleagues
> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>
> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
> Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
> the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
> seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and I've
> looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool
> (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
>
> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
> and thanks in advance for your investment of
> time/effort to respond...
>
> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
> does PowerBuilder still have
> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>
> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>
> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>
> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>
> Maybe its a single feature.
> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already does.
>
> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
> to the litmus test...
> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?
> -- 
> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>
>
> 

You could limit C# code to simple datatypes.

Or provide a C# code importer tool that converts C# code to the equivalent 
PowerScript.

"Jim O'Neil [Sybase]" <joneil@sybase.com> wrote in message 
news:e7vfm315sm09nbugs0fd51du3ks2tnv7g9@4ax.com...
> But at somepoint don't the two need to merge?   I understand the
> desire to cut and paste code, and in practice I agree with you.... I
> am generally using VS.NET to get something to work first before I do
> it in PB, which is a shame.   However, in PB you'll still have
> PB-unique constructs like DW dot notation, etc... how do you 'mix' C#
> and PowerScript in that regard?
>
> Do we allow TWO ways to do things.. e.g., new AND CREATE?   Do we
> relegate old stuff to a segregated namespace (ala VB?).
>
> With the focus on bringing OLD applications forward, there are some
> conflicting goals here.  C# makes perfect sense for NEW apps, but how
> much work are you willing to do to old apps?  Should there be two
> different options, perhaps?
>
> On 18 Dec 2007 06:50:30 -0800, "Roland Smith [TeamSybase]"
> <rsmith_at_trusthss_dot_com> wrote:
>
>>Allow coding directly in C# within the PB script painter.
>>
>>Two ways to do this:
>>
>>Allow C# within the IF PBDOTNET block
>>
>>Event/Function property 'Language' that defaults to PBScript. Then we 
>>could
>>change it to C# and code the entire event or function in C#.
>>
>>If I want to copy a code example from a website, currently I have to
>>translate it to PBScript manually. The compiler then translates it from
>>PBScript to C#. That is two unnecessary tasks that probably result in C#
>>code that is not exactly what I wanted it to be.
>>
>>This would also be great for Webforms if I could specify Javascript or
>>VBScript for the language on events, rowfocuschanged for example. This 
>>would
>>go a long way to eliminate Webform's postback issues.
>>
>>
>>"John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message
>>news:4767db38@forums-1-dub...
>>>> I think the correct question is "what can be done to make PB a better
>>>> tool for the subset of applications where it
>>>> makes sense?".
>>>
>>> Thanks for the perspective Tyler.
>>>
>>> Since you believe most PowerBuilder developers
>>> now have VS as an additional regularly-used tool,
>>> how can we work to have that to your advantage?
>>>
>>> In addition to DataWindow .NET, do you see yourself
>>> making use of the NVO deployment capabilities as
>>> .NET Assemblies and .NET Web Services?
>>> Can we improve that capability to make it more useful
>>> for heavy lifting of data access/manipulation/persistence?
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>
>>>
>>> "Tyler Cruse" <tcruse@trlx.com> wrote in message
>>> news:476694fd$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>> PB is a client/server tool (with the client possibily being browser
>>>> based). This is something that has always been
>>>> true.  So, to think that PB and VS are competors for most projects is 
>>>> not
>>>> true.  There are numerous places where
>>>> PB is just not a good fit.  It is one tool in a programmers toolbox,
>>>> hopefully not the only one.  PB will never
>>>> replace VS (and language support c, c++, c#, vb.net).
>>>>
>>>> In fact I think it would be difficult to find any PB programmer that 
>>>> does
>>>> not also have VS installed on this/her development
>>>> workstation.  I know of few PB projects that do not also have at lease
>>>> some code from other sources.
>>>>
>>>> So, looking for something to allow PB to win over VS users is not a 
>>>> valid
>>>> question.
>>>>
>>>> I think the correct question is "what can be done to make PB a better
>>>> tool for the subset of applications where it
>>>> makes sense?".
>>>>
>>>> 1) Fully managed code, reduction of the PB runtime to a very small .dll
>>>> that can be copied to the installation directory (no global
>>>> cache requirement) and no extra install of pb runtime.
>>>> 2) Access to WPF componets (windows, layout panels, controls, etc) 
>>>> using
>>>> a very cleaver painter that will make layout easy and still
>>>> provide full functionality
>>>> 3) Really good add-on support (e.g. RTF (TextEdit), Image control (LEAD
>>>> TOOLS), graphing package, report display (Crystal
>>>> Reports?) included with PB license.
>>>> 4) Really good support for third party .net controls and assemblies
>>>> writen outside of PB
>>>>
>>>> It makes no difference to me if this is done inside a VS IDE or a PB 
>>>> only
>>>> IDE.  What ever the implementation, it
>>>> must allow creation of client/server (and WEB) applications faster than
>>>> VS studio alone, it must produce applications
>>>> that perform better than VS alone, and it must fully support MS Sql
>>>> Server. Also, it must keep up with MS new
>>>> releases of OS, dot Net, and SQL Server, not lag behind 6 mo or longer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:4762cff9$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that will soon be
>>>>>>> at the core of your IDE?
>>>>>
>>>>> By adding value.
>>>>>
>>>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only meant as
>>>>> one example to jog discussion, but has arguably muddied the water now.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for something 
>>>>> new
>>>>> to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors have...and of course 
>>>>> there's
>>>>> more than one in 2007 and beyond.
>>>>>
>>>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>>>> that would be competitive?
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to competition
>>>>>> between VS and PB. In order to compete, you have to be in the same 
>>>>>> race
>>>>>> and PB is not and has not been since .Net was created over 6 years 
>>>>>> ago.
>>>>>> Although they both roughly allow you to create applications, they 
>>>>>> each
>>>>>> allow you to go about the process in completely different ways.
>>>>>> Define what competition means to Sybase? Because from where I'm 
>>>>>> sitting
>>>>>> I see..1) More .Net framework support coming 2)users requesting VS 
>>>>>> like
>>>>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB IDE. All of
>>>>>> those kinda say VS and MS have won. How can you say you want to 
>>>>>> compete
>>>>>> with something that will soon be at the core of your IDE?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side comparison
>>>>>> will confirm that PB is no where close. The  way the die-hards make 
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> "seem" close is by lopping off features of VS and .Net that they feel
>>>>>> are not important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much we
>>>>>> normally disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net) are general 
>>>>>> purpose
>>>>>> programming tools..PB is a client/server programming tool. I feel 
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> until that changes, there is no way to do a comparison.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew it. If DW.Net
>>>>>> had release with 1) a fully managed implementation and 2) ADO.Net
>>>>>> support - they might have had a shot at the ComponentOne and
>>>>>> Infragistics of the world. But once again, how do you exactly say you
>>>>>> have a competitive product when Telerik RAD controls are being used 
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> DWs when they go to a web form? Telerik is a direct competitor of
>>>>>> DW.Net and the others. What is that all about?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition point is...I 
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> check the differences between what Sybase Engineering has done vs. 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> 2500+ folks on the MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot
>>>>>> at beating that many heads with that many man hours by finding..
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already
>>>>>>> does.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how to follow and
>>>>>> stay close behind. Its the best option right now until maybe a better
>>>>>> option presents itself down the road.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Troy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how 
>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>> times...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
>>>>>>> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
>>>>>>> Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
>>>>>>> the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
>>>>>>> seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and 
>>>>>>> I've
>>>>>>> looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER 
>>>>>>> tool
>>>>>>> (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already
>>>>>>> does.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> 

Roland;

     One of the systems that I used when I first got into IT was the 
Centurion Operating system from NCR. This was an amazing environment because 
it had the NEAT/3 compiler. In this development environment, you could use 
the Keyword ENTER and the language you wanted to code. So for example, you 
would say ENTER Assembler and then start LR, SLR, etc commands, then say 
ENTER Cobol and do a move corresponding and then top that off with ENTER 
Fortran to do some mathematical operations on the data.

    I wonder if that would not be a really "cool" and differentiating thing 
for PB like ENTER {native, vb, c#, etc) and then code away in your favourite 
syntax!

Food for thought.

Regards ... Chris
http://chrispollach.pbdjmagazine.com
 ,\|/,
(0 0)
-(_)-


"Roland Smith [TeamSybase]" <rsmith_at_trusthss_dot_com> wrote in message 
news:4767de36$1@forums-1-dub...
> Allow coding directly in C# within the PB script painter.
>
> Two ways to do this:
>
> Allow C# within the IF PBDOTNET block
>
> Event/Function property 'Language' that defaults to PBScript. Then we 
> could change it to C# and code the entire event or function in C#.
>
> If I want to copy a code example from a website, currently I have to 
> translate it to PBScript manually. The compiler then translates it from 
> PBScript to C#. That is two unnecessary tasks that probably result in C# 
> code that is not exactly what I wanted it to be.
>
> This would also be great for Webforms if I could specify Javascript or 
> VBScript for the language on events, rowfocuschanged for example. This 
> would go a long way to eliminate Webform's postback issues.
>
>
> "John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
> news:4767db38@forums-1-dub...
>>> I think the correct question is "what can be done to make PB a better 
>>> tool for the subset of applications where it
>>> makes sense?".
>>
>> Thanks for the perspective Tyler.
>>
>> Since you believe most PowerBuilder developers
>> now have VS as an additional regularly-used tool,
>> how can we work to have that to your advantage?
>>
>> In addition to DataWindow .NET, do you see yourself
>> making use of the NVO deployment capabilities as
>> .NET Assemblies and .NET Web Services?
>> Can we improve that capability to make it more useful
>> for heavy lifting of data access/manipulation/persistence?
>>
>> -- 
>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>
>>
>> "Tyler Cruse" <tcruse@trlx.com> wrote in message 
>> news:476694fd$1@forums-1-dub...
>>> PB is a client/server tool (with the client possibily being browser 
>>> based). This is something that has always been
>>> true.  So, to think that PB and VS are competors for most projects is 
>>> not true.  There are numerous places where
>>> PB is just not a good fit.  It is one tool in a programmers toolbox, 
>>> hopefully not the only one.  PB will never
>>> replace VS (and language support c, c++, c#, vb.net).
>>>
>>> In fact I think it would be difficult to find any PB programmer that 
>>> does not also have VS installed on this/her development
>>> workstation.  I know of few PB projects that do not also have at lease 
>>> some code from other sources.
>>>
>>> So, looking for something to allow PB to win over VS users is not a 
>>> valid question.
>>>
>>> I think the correct question is "what can be done to make PB a better 
>>> tool for the subset of applications where it
>>> makes sense?".
>>>
>>> 1) Fully managed code, reduction of the PB runtime to a very small .dll 
>>> that can be copied to the installation directory (no global
>>> cache requirement) and no extra install of pb runtime.
>>> 2) Access to WPF componets (windows, layout panels, controls, etc) using 
>>> a very cleaver painter that will make layout easy and still
>>> provide full functionality
>>> 3) Really good add-on support (e.g. RTF (TextEdit), Image control (LEAD 
>>> TOOLS), graphing package, report display (Crystal
>>> Reports?) included with PB license.
>>> 4) Really good support for third party .net controls and assemblies 
>>> writen outside of PB
>>>
>>> It makes no difference to me if this is done inside a VS IDE or a PB 
>>> only IDE.  What ever the implementation, it
>>> must allow creation of client/server (and WEB) applications faster than 
>>> VS studio alone, it must produce applications
>>> that perform better than VS alone, and it must fully support MS Sql 
>>> Server. Also, it must keep up with MS new
>>> releases of OS, dot Net, and SQL Server, not lag behind 6 mo or longer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
>>> news:4762cff9$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that will soon be 
>>>>>> at the core of your IDE?
>>>>
>>>> By adding value.
>>>>
>>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only meant as
>>>> one example to jog discussion, but has arguably muddied the water now.
>>>>
>>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for something new
>>>> to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors have...and of course 
>>>> there's
>>>> more than one in 2007 and beyond.
>>>>
>>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>>> that would be competitive?
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message 
>>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>>
>>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to competition 
>>>>> between VS and PB. In order to compete, you have to be in the same 
>>>>> race and PB is not and has not been since .Net was created over 6 
>>>>> years ago. Although they both roughly allow you to create 
>>>>> applications, they each allow you to go about the process in 
>>>>> completely different ways.
>>>>> Define what competition means to Sybase? Because from where I'm 
>>>>> sitting I see..1) More .Net framework support coming 2)users 
>>>>> requesting VS like features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo 
>>>>> the PB IDE. All of those kinda say VS and MS have won. How can you say 
>>>>> you want to compete with something that will soon be at the core of 
>>>>> your IDE?
>>>>>
>>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side comparison 
>>>>> will confirm that PB is no where close. The  way the die-hards make it 
>>>>> "seem" close is by lopping off features of VS and .Net that they feel 
>>>>> are not important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much we 
>>>>> normally disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net) are general 
>>>>> purpose programming tools..PB is a client/server programming tool. I 
>>>>> feel that until that changes, there is no way to do a comparison.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew it. If DW.Net 
>>>>> had release with 1) a fully managed implementation and 2) ADO.Net 
>>>>> support - they might have had a shot at the ComponentOne and 
>>>>> Infragistics of the world. But once again, how do you exactly say you 
>>>>> have a competitive product when Telerik RAD controls are being used by 
>>>>> DWs when they go to a web form? Telerik is a direct competitor of 
>>>>> DW.Net and the others. What is that all about?
>>>>>
>>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition point is...I would 
>>>>> check the differences between what Sybase Engineering has done vs. the 
>>>>> 2500+ folks on the MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot 
>>>>> at beating that many heads with that many man hours by finding..
>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already 
>>>>>> does.
>>>>>
>>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how to follow and 
>>>>> stay close behind. Its the best option right now until maybe a better 
>>>>> option presents itself down the road.
>>>>>
>>>>> Troy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how 
>>>>>> many
>>>>>> times...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
>>>>>> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
>>>>>> Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
>>>>>> the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
>>>>>> seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and 
>>>>>> I've
>>>>>> looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER 
>>>>>> tool
>>>>>> (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already 
>>>>>> does.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> 

What about only allowing one syntax in a given event. Now its really easy to 
write my C# logic and simply call a PB method passing arguments. I get 
arguments back or write getter/setter methods to talk to C# objects, logic.

-- 
Dean Jones
CEO
PowerObjects
http://www.powerobjects.com
(612) 339-3355 Ext. 112

TeamSybase
* * Think Sybase * *


"Roland Smith [TeamSybase]" <topwiz.smith@comcast.net> wrote in message 
news:47688473@forums-1-dub...
> You could limit C# code to simple datatypes.
>
> Or provide a C# code importer tool that converts C# code to the equivalent 
> PowerScript.
>
> "Jim O'Neil [Sybase]" <joneil@sybase.com> wrote in message 
> news:e7vfm315sm09nbugs0fd51du3ks2tnv7g9@4ax.com...
>> But at somepoint don't the two need to merge?   I understand the
>> desire to cut and paste code, and in practice I agree with you.... I
>> am generally using VS.NET to get something to work first before I do
>> it in PB, which is a shame.   However, in PB you'll still have
>> PB-unique constructs like DW dot notation, etc... how do you 'mix' C#
>> and PowerScript in that regard?
>>
>> Do we allow TWO ways to do things.. e.g., new AND CREATE?   Do we
>> relegate old stuff to a segregated namespace (ala VB?).
>>
>> With the focus on bringing OLD applications forward, there are some
>> conflicting goals here.  C# makes perfect sense for NEW apps, but how
>> much work are you willing to do to old apps?  Should there be two
>> different options, perhaps?
>>
>> On 18 Dec 2007 06:50:30 -0800, "Roland Smith [TeamSybase]"
>> <rsmith_at_trusthss_dot_com> wrote:
>>
>>>Allow coding directly in C# within the PB script painter.
>>>
>>>Two ways to do this:
>>>
>>>Allow C# within the IF PBDOTNET block
>>>
>>>Event/Function property 'Language' that defaults to PBScript. Then we 
>>>could
>>>change it to C# and code the entire event or function in C#.
>>>
>>>If I want to copy a code example from a website, currently I have to
>>>translate it to PBScript manually. The compiler then translates it from
>>>PBScript to C#. That is two unnecessary tasks that probably result in C#
>>>code that is not exactly what I wanted it to be.
>>>
>>>This would also be great for Webforms if I could specify Javascript or
>>>VBScript for the language on events, rowfocuschanged for example. This 
>>>would
>>>go a long way to eliminate Webform's postback issues.
>>>
>>>
>>>"John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message
>>>news:4767db38@forums-1-dub...
>>>>> I think the correct question is "what can be done to make PB a better
>>>>> tool for the subset of applications where it
>>>>> makes sense?".
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the perspective Tyler.
>>>>
>>>> Since you believe most PowerBuilder developers
>>>> now have VS as an additional regularly-used tool,
>>>> how can we work to have that to your advantage?
>>>>
>>>> In addition to DataWindow .NET, do you see yourself
>>>> making use of the NVO deployment capabilities as
>>>> .NET Assemblies and .NET Web Services?
>>>> Can we improve that capability to make it more useful
>>>> for heavy lifting of data access/manipulation/persistence?
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Tyler Cruse" <tcruse@trlx.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:476694fd$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>> PB is a client/server tool (with the client possibily being browser
>>>>> based). This is something that has always been
>>>>> true.  So, to think that PB and VS are competors for most projects is 
>>>>> not
>>>>> true.  There are numerous places where
>>>>> PB is just not a good fit.  It is one tool in a programmers toolbox,
>>>>> hopefully not the only one.  PB will never
>>>>> replace VS (and language support c, c++, c#, vb.net).
>>>>>
>>>>> In fact I think it would be difficult to find any PB programmer that 
>>>>> does
>>>>> not also have VS installed on this/her development
>>>>> workstation.  I know of few PB projects that do not also have at lease
>>>>> some code from other sources.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, looking for something to allow PB to win over VS users is not a 
>>>>> valid
>>>>> question.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the correct question is "what can be done to make PB a better
>>>>> tool for the subset of applications where it
>>>>> makes sense?".
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) Fully managed code, reduction of the PB runtime to a very small 
>>>>> .dll
>>>>> that can be copied to the installation directory (no global
>>>>> cache requirement) and no extra install of pb runtime.
>>>>> 2) Access to WPF componets (windows, layout panels, controls, etc) 
>>>>> using
>>>>> a very cleaver painter that will make layout easy and still
>>>>> provide full functionality
>>>>> 3) Really good add-on support (e.g. RTF (TextEdit), Image control 
>>>>> (LEAD
>>>>> TOOLS), graphing package, report display (Crystal
>>>>> Reports?) included with PB license.
>>>>> 4) Really good support for third party .net controls and assemblies
>>>>> writen outside of PB
>>>>>
>>>>> It makes no difference to me if this is done inside a VS IDE or a PB 
>>>>> only
>>>>> IDE.  What ever the implementation, it
>>>>> must allow creation of client/server (and WEB) applications faster 
>>>>> than
>>>>> VS studio alone, it must produce applications
>>>>> that perform better than VS alone, and it must fully support MS Sql
>>>>> Server. Also, it must keep up with MS new
>>>>> releases of OS, dot Net, and SQL Server, not lag behind 6 mo or 
>>>>> longer.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:4762cff9$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that will soon 
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> at the core of your IDE?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By adding value.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only meant as
>>>>>> one example to jog discussion, but has arguably muddied the water 
>>>>>> now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for something 
>>>>>> new
>>>>>> to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors have...and of course 
>>>>>> there's
>>>>>> more than one in 2007 and beyond.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>>>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>>>>> that would be competitive?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to competition
>>>>>>> between VS and PB. In order to compete, you have to be in the same 
>>>>>>> race
>>>>>>> and PB is not and has not been since .Net was created over 6 years 
>>>>>>> ago.
>>>>>>> Although they both roughly allow you to create applications, they 
>>>>>>> each
>>>>>>> allow you to go about the process in completely different ways.
>>>>>>> Define what competition means to Sybase? Because from where I'm 
>>>>>>> sitting
>>>>>>> I see..1) More .Net framework support coming 2)users requesting VS 
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB IDE. All of
>>>>>>> those kinda say VS and MS have won. How can you say you want to 
>>>>>>> compete
>>>>>>> with something that will soon be at the core of your IDE?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side comparison
>>>>>>> will confirm that PB is no where close. The  way the die-hards make 
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> "seem" close is by lopping off features of VS and .Net that they 
>>>>>>> feel
>>>>>>> are not important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much we
>>>>>>> normally disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net) are general 
>>>>>>> purpose
>>>>>>> programming tools..PB is a client/server programming tool. I feel 
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> until that changes, there is no way to do a comparison.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew it. If DW.Net
>>>>>>> had release with 1) a fully managed implementation and 2) ADO.Net
>>>>>>> support - they might have had a shot at the ComponentOne and
>>>>>>> Infragistics of the world. But once again, how do you exactly say 
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> have a competitive product when Telerik RAD controls are being used 
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>> DWs when they go to a web form? Telerik is a direct competitor of
>>>>>>> DW.Net and the others. What is that all about?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition point is...I 
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> check the differences between what Sybase Engineering has done vs. 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> 2500+ folks on the MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any 
>>>>>>> shot
>>>>>>> at beating that many heads with that many man hours by finding..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already
>>>>>>>> does.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how to follow 
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> stay close behind. Its the best option right now until maybe a 
>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>> option presents itself down the road.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Troy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how 
>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>> times...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
>>>>>>>> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
>>>>>>>> Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
>>>>>>>> the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
>>>>>>>> seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and 
>>>>>>>> I've
>>>>>>>> looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER 
>>>>>>>> tool
>>>>>>>> (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already
>>>>>>>> does.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
> 

"John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
news:47683e75$1@forums-1-dub...
> Now pardon the pompous Knute Rockne tone, but we
> still enjoy running, competing, and we still
> enjoy seeing PowerBuilder improve its ability
> to serve our customers.
>

The question that I wonder about is, who are you folks competing against?

According to the PB 11.1 Data Sheet http://www.sybase.com/detail?id=1051987

"PowerBuilder enables developers to focus on the task at hand without 
incurring a significant cost or learning curve to understand new 
technologies."

I consider it an on-going part of my job as well as my ability to remain 
viable in my profession to learn, understand, and evaluate new technologies, 
and to incorporate them when and where appropriate.  I would not have been 
able to accomplish what I have without the ability and desire to 
continuously learn about new technologies and different approaches to 
solving technical issues.

It would appear that the product is not targeting developers such as myself. 
That's OK - no tool can be all things to all people.  But I think that 
rather than saying, as your Data Sheet does, that "PB 11.1 has something for 
everyone", you would have more success if you clearly and explicitly target 
the kinds of developers and applications for whom the tool is a good fit, 
and don't try to compete head to head with more general purpose tools.

Filemaker, for instance, is quite clear about who they are targeting.  They 
say about their product:

"It's about getting access to what you need, when you need it - without 
requiring computer-programming skills."

I don't think PB is targeting the same market, but I guess it's not really 
clear to me just what the real target market is.

You could start by adding something like this natively to PB

http://www.felix.fr/produits/flxsuite/flxsuite.cfm

no brainer.  Bring the interface of PB apps to the year
2000.

A good source control would be great as well

> >> How can you say you want to compete with something that
> will soon be at  >> the core of your IDE?
>
> By adding value.
>
> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only
> meant as one example to jog discussion, but has arguably
> muddied the water now.
>
> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for
> something new to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors
> have...and of course there's more than one in 2007 and
> beyond.
>
> So as a client/server development tool.
> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
> that would be competitive?
>
> --
> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>
>
> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message
> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
> > I'll start with this..
> >
> > That's the second time I have seen you post relating to
> > competition  between VS and PB. In order to compete, you
> > have to be in the same race  and PB is not and has not
> > been since .Net was created over 6 years ago.  Although
> they both roughly allow you to create applications, they
> > each  allow you to go about the process in completely
> > different ways. Define what competition means to Sybase?
> > Because from where I'm sitting I  see..1) More .Net
> > framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like
> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB
> > IDE. All of those  kinda say VS and MS have won. How can
> > you say you want to compete with  something that will
> soon be at the core of your IDE? >
> > A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side
> > comparison will  confirm that PB is no where close. The
> > way the die-hards make it "seem"  close is by lopping
> > off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not
> important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much
> > we normally  disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net)
> > are general purpose programming  tools..PB is a
> > client/server programming tool. I feel that until that
> changes, there is no way to do a comparison. >
> > On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew
> > it. If DW.Net had  release with 1) a fully managed
> > implementation and 2) ADO.Net support -  they might have
> > had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the
> world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a
> > competitive  product when Telerik RAD controls are being
> > used by DWs when they go to a  web form? Telerik is a
> > direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is
> that all about? >
> > If you really want to examine where the competition
> > point is...I would  check the differences between what
> > Sybase Engineering has done vs. the  2500+ folks on the
> > MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at
> beating that many heads with that many man hours by
> finding.. >
> >> Maybe its a single feature.
> >> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
> >> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
> PowerBuilder already does. >
> > is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how
> > to follow and stay  close behind. Its the best option
> > right now until maybe a better option  presents itself
> down the road. >
> > Troy
> >
> >
> > John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
> >> Blah blah blah
> >>
> >> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to
> comment on how many >> times...
> >>
> >> The DataWindow.
> >>
> >> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
> >>
> >> This from one of our colleagues
> >> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
> >>
> >> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
> >> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to
> the user: >> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.),
> Database operability AND >> Reporting! Well, I see als
> well as many other PB users that some of >> the
> implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But
> this >> seems not to be the main issue here to be
> discussed. Fact is, and I've >> looked around to may other
> Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool >> (I did not
> find any) which is comparable RAD..." >>
> >> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
> >> and thanks in advance for your investment of
> >> time/effort to respond...
> >>
> >> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
> >> does PowerBuilder still have
> >> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
> >>
> >> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
> >>
> >> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
> >> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
> >>
> >> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
> >> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
> >> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
> >>
> >> Maybe its a single feature.
> >> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
> >> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
> PowerBuilder already does. >>
> >> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
> >> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
> >> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
> >> to the litmus test...
> >> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive
> differentiator?
>
>

.... nice!!!

.... Sybase, hire this guy or buy the CONTROL(s) ...

this is something I would pay extra for in my licence !!!




<dwx> wrote in message news:4769ed04.3286.1681692777@sybase.com...
> You could start by adding something like this natively to PB
>
> http://www.felix.fr/produits/flxsuite/flxsuite.cfm
>
> no brainer.  Bring the interface of PB apps to the year
> 2000.
>
> A good source control would be great as well
>
>> >> How can you say you want to compete with something that
>> will soon be at  >> the core of your IDE?
>>
>> By adding value.
>>
>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only
>> meant as one example to jog discussion, but has arguably
>> muddied the water now.
>>
>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for
>> something new to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors
>> have...and of course there's more than one in 2007 and
>> beyond.
>>
>> So as a client/server development tool.
>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>> that would be competitive?
>>
>> --
>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>
>>
>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message
>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>> > I'll start with this..
>> >
>> > That's the second time I have seen you post relating to
>> > competition  between VS and PB. In order to compete, you
>> > have to be in the same race  and PB is not and has not
>> > been since .Net was created over 6 years ago.  Although
>> they both roughly allow you to create applications, they
>> > each  allow you to go about the process in completely
>> > different ways. Define what competition means to Sybase?
>> > Because from where I'm sitting I  see..1) More .Net
>> > framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like
>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB
>> > IDE. All of those  kinda say VS and MS have won. How can
>> > you say you want to compete with  something that will
>> soon be at the core of your IDE? >
>> > A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side
>> > comparison will  confirm that PB is no where close. The
>> > way the die-hards make it "seem"  close is by lopping
>> > off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not
>> important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much
>> > we normally  disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net)
>> > are general purpose programming  tools..PB is a
>> > client/server programming tool. I feel that until that
>> changes, there is no way to do a comparison. >
>> > On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew
>> > it. If DW.Net had  release with 1) a fully managed
>> > implementation and 2) ADO.Net support -  they might have
>> > had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the
>> world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a
>> > competitive  product when Telerik RAD controls are being
>> > used by DWs when they go to a  web form? Telerik is a
>> > direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is
>> that all about? >
>> > If you really want to examine where the competition
>> > point is...I would  check the differences between what
>> > Sybase Engineering has done vs. the  2500+ folks on the
>> > MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at
>> beating that many heads with that many man hours by
>> finding.. >
>> >> Maybe its a single feature.
>> >> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>> >> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>> PowerBuilder already does. >
>> > is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how
>> > to follow and stay  close behind. Its the best option
>> > right now until maybe a better option  presents itself
>> down the road. >
>> > Troy
>> >
>> >
>> > John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>> >> Blah blah blah
>> >>
>> >> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to
>> comment on how many >> times...
>> >>
>> >> The DataWindow.
>> >>
>> >> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>> >>
>> >> This from one of our colleagues
>> >> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>> >>
>> >> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>> >> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to
>> the user: >> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.),
>> Database operability AND >> Reporting! Well, I see als
>> well as many other PB users that some of >> the
>> implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But
>> this >> seems not to be the main issue here to be
>> discussed. Fact is, and I've >> looked around to may other
>> Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool >> (I did not
>> find any) which is comparable RAD..." >>
>> >> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>> >> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>> >> time/effort to respond...
>> >>
>> >> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>> >> does PowerBuilder still have
>> >> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>> >>
>> >> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>> >>
>> >> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>> >> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>> >>
>> >> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>> >> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>> >> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>> >>
>> >> Maybe its a single feature.
>> >> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>> >> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>> PowerBuilder already does. >>
>> >> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>> >> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>> >> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>> >> to the litmus test...
>> >> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive
>> differentiator?
>>
>> 

Jerry Siegel [TeamSybase] wrote:

> I agree. One advantage PB has is its ability to play well with
> others: DBMS especially, but you can talk to any tool that uses
> standard API. The easier PB makes that, the better for both parties.

  PB has this advantage over what other languages?

-- 
Mike Swaim MD Anderson Division of Quantitative Sciences
mpswaim@mdanderson.org or mswaim@odin.mdacc.tmc.edu
Today's Secret Message:
Aladdin strokes the disguised hemisphere.

In answering a user's question in another group, I said the following, and 
it came to mind that it was also relevant to your question about 
differentiation in PB.  I think a feature like mentioned below would help:

I"ve long thought a callable 'userobject' from within a PB app that could 
have certain features enabled/disabled (properties) would be a great 
enhancement to PB, unfortunately, NO, it doesn't exist.  There is 
"Infomaker", which will allow users to build/maintain their own 
reports/libraries, but it is not designed to be 'integrated' within your 
powerbuilder app, but sold 'per seat' to users who need it.  It is pretty 
inexpensive in bulk, and for some user groups it can work, but in my 
experience, not for most.

"TOMMS" <jacky@tomms.com.my> wrote in message news:476a2f0e@forums-1-dub...
> Dear all:
>
> Is there any report designer or dw painter built-in in powerbuilder?
>
> We are trying to let the user design their own report during runtime.
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> Regards,
> TOMMS
>
"John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
news:4762b160$1@forums-1-dub...
> Blah blah blah
>
> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how many
> times...
>
> The DataWindow.
>
> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>
> This from one of our colleagues
> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>
> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
> Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
> the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
> seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and I've
> looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool
> (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
>
> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
> and thanks in advance for your investment of
> time/effort to respond...
>
> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
> does PowerBuilder still have
> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>
> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>
> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>
> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>
> Maybe its a single feature.
> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already does.
>
> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
> to the litmus test...
> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?
> -- 
> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>
>
> 

 No, we just need PB to open up access to the .Net controls. That is, once 
we can inherit from the .Net classes - we should be off to the races!  :-)


"jeff" <jhersey at allnorth dottt com> wrote in message 
news:4769f2ac$1@forums-1-dub...
> ... nice!!!
>
> ... Sybase, hire this guy or buy the CONTROL(s) ...
>
> this is something I would pay extra for in my licence !!!
>
>
>
>
> <dwx> wrote in message news:4769ed04.3286.1681692777@sybase.com...
>> You could start by adding something like this natively to PB
>>
>> http://www.felix.fr/produits/flxsuite/flxsuite.cfm
>>
>> no brainer.  Bring the interface of PB apps to the year
>> 2000.
>>
>> A good source control would be great as well
>>
>>> >> How can you say you want to compete with something that
>>> will soon be at  >> the core of your IDE?
>>>
>>> By adding value.
>>>
>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only
>>> meant as one example to jog discussion, but has arguably
>>> muddied the water now.
>>>
>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for
>>> something new to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors
>>> have...and of course there's more than one in 2007 and
>>> beyond.
>>>
>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>> that would be competitive?
>>>
>>> --
>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>
>>>
>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message
>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>> > I'll start with this..
>>> >
>>> > That's the second time I have seen you post relating to
>>> > competition  between VS and PB. In order to compete, you
>>> > have to be in the same race  and PB is not and has not
>>> > been since .Net was created over 6 years ago.  Although
>>> they both roughly allow you to create applications, they
>>> > each  allow you to go about the process in completely
>>> > different ways. Define what competition means to Sybase?
>>> > Because from where I'm sitting I  see..1) More .Net
>>> > framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like
>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB
>>> > IDE. All of those  kinda say VS and MS have won. How can
>>> > you say you want to compete with  something that will
>>> soon be at the core of your IDE? >
>>> > A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side
>>> > comparison will  confirm that PB is no where close. The
>>> > way the die-hards make it "seem"  close is by lopping
>>> > off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not
>>> important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much
>>> > we normally  disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net)
>>> > are general purpose programming  tools..PB is a
>>> > client/server programming tool. I feel that until that
>>> changes, there is no way to do a comparison. >
>>> > On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew
>>> > it. If DW.Net had  release with 1) a fully managed
>>> > implementation and 2) ADO.Net support -  they might have
>>> > had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the
>>> world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a
>>> > competitive  product when Telerik RAD controls are being
>>> > used by DWs when they go to a  web form? Telerik is a
>>> > direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is
>>> that all about? >
>>> > If you really want to examine where the competition
>>> > point is...I would  check the differences between what
>>> > Sybase Engineering has done vs. the  2500+ folks on the
>>> > MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at
>>> beating that many heads with that many man hours by
>>> finding.. >
>>> >> Maybe its a single feature.
>>> >> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>> >> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>> PowerBuilder already does. >
>>> > is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how
>>> > to follow and stay  close behind. Its the best option
>>> > right now until maybe a better option  presents itself
>>> down the road. >
>>> > Troy
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>> >> Blah blah blah
>>> >>
>>> >> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to
>>> comment on how many >> times...
>>> >>
>>> >> The DataWindow.
>>> >>
>>> >> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>> >>
>>> >> This from one of our colleagues
>>> >> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>> >>
>>> >> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>> >> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to
>>> the user: >> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.),
>>> Database operability AND >> Reporting! Well, I see als
>>> well as many other PB users that some of >> the
>>> implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But
>>> this >> seems not to be the main issue here to be
>>> discussed. Fact is, and I've >> looked around to may other
>>> Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool >> (I did not
>>> find any) which is comparable RAD..." >>
>>> >> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>> >> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>> >> time/effort to respond...
>>> >>
>>> >> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>> >> does PowerBuilder still have
>>> >> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>> >>
>>> >> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>> >>
>>> >> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>> >> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>> >>
>>> >> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>> >> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>> >> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>> >>
>>> >> Maybe its a single feature.
>>> >> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>> >> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>> PowerBuilder already does. >>
>>> >> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>> >> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>> >> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>> >> to the litmus test...
>>> >> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive
>>> differentiator?
>>>
>>>
>
> 

This sounds like the best idea yet.  I like it.

Dean Jones wrote:
> What about only allowing one syntax in a given event. Now its really easy to 
> write my C# logic and simply call a PB method passing arguments. I get 
> arguments back or write getter/setter methods to talk to C# objects, logic.
> 

> You could limit C# code to simple datatypes.
> 
> Or provide a C# code importer tool that converts C# code to the equivalent 
> PowerScript.
> 

I like the idea but no solution should "limit" anything. Thats what got us here in the first place. Secondly, no where near all possible C# code will convert to Powerscript. Those languages are vastly different. Why would we want to convert it in only to turn around and convert back out to C# for the build? I also think parsing and syntax checking would be a nightmare as seen in another thread..folks want more intellisense like features in the IDE.

What it sounds like is that we are getting close to some sort of directive approach like ASP.NEt uses to specify the language used. If Sybase follows through with purely managed versions of their libraries, then allowing you to make a language choice would be and IDE change only, right? But then again, I haven't heard for sure if the managed versions of the libraries they are creating are meant for consumption outside of PB.

Although I see where Dean is coming from, allowing multiple language use at the event level would constitute another form of spaghetti code. Even on the VS side where we have language choices, we draw the boundary at the project level partly because we have to but mainly because we should. By allowing folks to go in and out of languages we would inadvertently hamper productivity when people got there CREATES and NEW mixed up.

Lastly, for the .Net targets, everything should use NEW and not the legacy OLE(?) CREATE syntax. My reasoning is simple. The .Net framework objects have REAL constructors and most of them are overloaded many times over. To get the most of the .Net framework, developers need to learn it and using legacy syntax that gets converted to proper syntax is not learning it. To see that CREATE statement near a fully qualified .Net object is a shining example of how "off" the .Net integration to this point has been.


Troy

OR use this

advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com

OR

kodigo.sourceforge.net



jeff wrote:
> ... nice!!!
> 
> ... Sybase, hire this guy or buy the CONTROL(s) ...
> 
> this is something I would pay extra for in my licence !!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <dwx> wrote in message news:4769ed04.3286.1681692777@sybase.com...
>> You could start by adding something like this natively to PB
>>
>> http://www.felix.fr/produits/flxsuite/flxsuite.cfm
>>
>> no brainer.  Bring the interface of PB apps to the year
>> 2000.
>>
>> A good source control would be great as well
>>
>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that
>>> will soon be at  >> the core of your IDE?
>>>
>>> By adding value.
>>>
>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only
>>> meant as one example to jog discussion, but has arguably
>>> muddied the water now.
>>>
>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for
>>> something new to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors
>>> have...and of course there's more than one in 2007 and
>>> beyond.
>>>
>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>> that would be competitive?
>>>
>>> --
>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>
>>>
>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message
>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>
>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to
>>>> competition  between VS and PB. In order to compete, you
>>>> have to be in the same race  and PB is not and has not
>>>> been since .Net was created over 6 years ago.  Although
>>> they both roughly allow you to create applications, they
>>>> each  allow you to go about the process in completely
>>>> different ways. Define what competition means to Sybase?
>>>> Because from where I'm sitting I  see..1) More .Net
>>>> framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like
>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB
>>>> IDE. All of those  kinda say VS and MS have won. How can
>>>> you say you want to compete with  something that will
>>> soon be at the core of your IDE? >
>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side
>>>> comparison will  confirm that PB is no where close. The
>>>> way the die-hards make it "seem"  close is by lopping
>>>> off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not
>>> important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much
>>>> we normally  disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net)
>>>> are general purpose programming  tools..PB is a
>>>> client/server programming tool. I feel that until that
>>> changes, there is no way to do a comparison. >
>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew
>>>> it. If DW.Net had  release with 1) a fully managed
>>>> implementation and 2) ADO.Net support -  they might have
>>>> had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the
>>> world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a
>>>> competitive  product when Telerik RAD controls are being
>>>> used by DWs when they go to a  web form? Telerik is a
>>>> direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is
>>> that all about? >
>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition
>>>> point is...I would  check the differences between what
>>>> Sybase Engineering has done vs. the  2500+ folks on the
>>>> MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at
>>> beating that many heads with that many man hours by
>>> finding.. >
>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>> PowerBuilder already does. >
>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how
>>>> to follow and stay  close behind. Its the best option
>>>> right now until maybe a better option  presents itself
>>> down the road. >
>>>> Troy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>
>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to
>>> comment on how many >> times...
>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>
>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>
>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>
>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to
>>> the user: >> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.),
>>> Database operability AND >> Reporting! Well, I see als
>>> well as many other PB users that some of >> the
>>> implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But
>>> this >> seems not to be the main issue here to be
>>> discussed. Fact is, and I've >> looked around to may other
>>> Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool >> (I did not
>>> find any) which is comparable RAD..." >>
>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>
>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>
>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>
>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>> PowerBuilder already does. >>
>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive
>>> differentiator?
>>>
>>>
> 
> 

 Unfortunately, I have found that these do not work or behave improperly 
when compiled into a Winform application.


"Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message 
news:476a7d1b$1@forums-1-dub...
> OR use this
>
> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com
>
> OR
>
> kodigo.sourceforge.net
>
>
>
> jeff wrote:
>> ... nice!!!
>>
>> ... Sybase, hire this guy or buy the CONTROL(s) ...
>>
>> this is something I would pay extra for in my licence !!!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <dwx> wrote in message news:4769ed04.3286.1681692777@sybase.com...
>>> You could start by adding something like this natively to PB
>>>
>>> http://www.felix.fr/produits/flxsuite/flxsuite.cfm
>>>
>>> no brainer.  Bring the interface of PB apps to the year
>>> 2000.
>>>
>>> A good source control would be great as well
>>>
>>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that
>>>> will soon be at  >> the core of your IDE?
>>>>
>>>> By adding value.
>>>>
>>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only
>>>> meant as one example to jog discussion, but has arguably
>>>> muddied the water now.
>>>>
>>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for
>>>> something new to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors
>>>> have...and of course there's more than one in 2007 and
>>>> beyond.
>>>>
>>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>>> that would be competitive?
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>>
>>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to
>>>>> competition  between VS and PB. In order to compete, you
>>>>> have to be in the same race  and PB is not and has not
>>>>> been since .Net was created over 6 years ago.  Although
>>>> they both roughly allow you to create applications, they
>>>>> each  allow you to go about the process in completely
>>>>> different ways. Define what competition means to Sybase?
>>>>> Because from where I'm sitting I  see..1) More .Net
>>>>> framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like
>>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB
>>>>> IDE. All of those  kinda say VS and MS have won. How can
>>>>> you say you want to compete with  something that will
>>>> soon be at the core of your IDE? >
>>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side
>>>>> comparison will  confirm that PB is no where close. The
>>>>> way the die-hards make it "seem"  close is by lopping
>>>>> off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not
>>>> important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much
>>>>> we normally  disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net)
>>>>> are general purpose programming  tools..PB is a
>>>>> client/server programming tool. I feel that until that
>>>> changes, there is no way to do a comparison. >
>>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew
>>>>> it. If DW.Net had  release with 1) a fully managed
>>>>> implementation and 2) ADO.Net support -  they might have
>>>>> had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the
>>>> world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a
>>>>> competitive  product when Telerik RAD controls are being
>>>>> used by DWs when they go to a  web form? Telerik is a
>>>>> direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is
>>>> that all about? >
>>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition
>>>>> point is...I would  check the differences between what
>>>>> Sybase Engineering has done vs. the  2500+ folks on the
>>>>> MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at
>>>> beating that many heads with that many man hours by
>>>> finding.. >
>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >
>>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how
>>>>> to follow and stay  close behind. Its the best option
>>>>> right now until maybe a better option  presents itself
>>>> down the road. >
>>>>> Troy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to
>>>> comment on how many >> times...
>>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to
>>>> the user: >> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.),
>>>> Database operability AND >> Reporting! Well, I see als
>>>> well as many other PB users that some of >> the
>>>> implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But
>>>> this >> seems not to be the main issue here to be
>>>> discussed. Fact is, and I've >> looked around to may other
>>>> Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool >> (I did not
>>>> find any) which is comparable RAD..." >>
>>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >>
>>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive
>>>> differentiator?
>>>>
>>>>
>> 

Yeah, unfortunately. I'm going to look at this a little more seriously 
to see if there is a workaround.

I essentially have to eliminate the PBNI dependency. If anyone has any 
idea's, please let me know.

Brad

Chris Pollach wrote:
>  Unfortunately, I have found that these do not work or behave improperly 
> when compiled into a Winform application.
> 
> 
> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:476a7d1b$1@forums-1-dub...
>> OR use this
>>
>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com
>>
>> OR
>>
>> kodigo.sourceforge.net
>>
>>
>>
>> jeff wrote:
>>> ... nice!!!
>>>
>>> ... Sybase, hire this guy or buy the CONTROL(s) ...
>>>
>>> this is something I would pay extra for in my licence !!!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <dwx> wrote in message news:4769ed04.3286.1681692777@sybase.com...
>>>> You could start by adding something like this natively to PB
>>>>
>>>> http://www.felix.fr/produits/flxsuite/flxsuite.cfm
>>>>
>>>> no brainer.  Bring the interface of PB apps to the year
>>>> 2000.
>>>>
>>>> A good source control would be great as well
>>>>
>>>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that
>>>>> will soon be at  >> the core of your IDE?
>>>>>
>>>>> By adding value.
>>>>>
>>>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only
>>>>> meant as one example to jog discussion, but has arguably
>>>>> muddied the water now.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for
>>>>> something new to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors
>>>>> have...and of course there's more than one in 2007 and
>>>>> beyond.
>>>>>
>>>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>>>> that would be competitive?
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to
>>>>>> competition  between VS and PB. In order to compete, you
>>>>>> have to be in the same race  and PB is not and has not
>>>>>> been since .Net was created over 6 years ago.  Although
>>>>> they both roughly allow you to create applications, they
>>>>>> each  allow you to go about the process in completely
>>>>>> different ways. Define what competition means to Sybase?
>>>>>> Because from where I'm sitting I  see..1) More .Net
>>>>>> framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like
>>>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB
>>>>>> IDE. All of those  kinda say VS and MS have won. How can
>>>>>> you say you want to compete with  something that will
>>>>> soon be at the core of your IDE? >
>>>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side
>>>>>> comparison will  confirm that PB is no where close. The
>>>>>> way the die-hards make it "seem"  close is by lopping
>>>>>> off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not
>>>>> important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much
>>>>>> we normally  disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net)
>>>>>> are general purpose programming  tools..PB is a
>>>>>> client/server programming tool. I feel that until that
>>>>> changes, there is no way to do a comparison. >
>>>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew
>>>>>> it. If DW.Net had  release with 1) a fully managed
>>>>>> implementation and 2) ADO.Net support -  they might have
>>>>>> had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the
>>>>> world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a
>>>>>> competitive  product when Telerik RAD controls are being
>>>>>> used by DWs when they go to a  web form? Telerik is a
>>>>>> direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is
>>>>> that all about? >
>>>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition
>>>>>> point is...I would  check the differences between what
>>>>>> Sybase Engineering has done vs. the  2500+ folks on the
>>>>>> MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at
>>>>> beating that many heads with that many man hours by
>>>>> finding.. >
>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >
>>>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how
>>>>>> to follow and stay  close behind. Its the best option
>>>>>> right now until maybe a better option  presents itself
>>>>> down the road. >
>>>>>> Troy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to
>>>>> comment on how many >> times...
>>>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to
>>>>> the user: >> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.),
>>>>> Database operability AND >> Reporting! Well, I see als
>>>>> well as many other PB users that some of >> the
>>>>> implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But
>>>>> this >> seems not to be the main issue here to be
>>>>> discussed. Fact is, and I've >> looked around to may other
>>>>> Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool >> (I did not
>>>>> find any) which is comparable RAD..." >>
>>>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >>
>>>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive
>>>>> differentiator?
>>>>>
>>>>>
> 

the felix options does not work with winform's either... problems with 
setparent or something.

the one thing the felix suite has is a nicer tab control ... this is 
essentially what I am after.

Any suggestions.

Thanks
Jeff


"Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message 
news:476a8fd1$1@forums-1-dub...
> Yeah, unfortunately. I'm going to look at this a little more seriously to 
> see if there is a workaround.
>
> I essentially have to eliminate the PBNI dependency. If anyone has any 
> idea's, please let me know.
>
> Brad
>
> Chris Pollach wrote:
>>  Unfortunately, I have found that these do not work or behave improperly 
>> when compiled into a Winform application.
>>
>>
>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message 
>> news:476a7d1b$1@forums-1-dub...
>>> OR use this
>>>
>>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com
>>>
>>> OR
>>>
>>> kodigo.sourceforge.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> jeff wrote:
>>>> ... nice!!!
>>>>
>>>> ... Sybase, hire this guy or buy the CONTROL(s) ...
>>>>
>>>> this is something I would pay extra for in my licence !!!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <dwx> wrote in message news:4769ed04.3286.1681692777@sybase.com...
>>>>> You could start by adding something like this natively to PB
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.felix.fr/produits/flxsuite/flxsuite.cfm
>>>>>
>>>>> no brainer.  Bring the interface of PB apps to the year
>>>>> 2000.
>>>>>
>>>>> A good source control would be great as well
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that
>>>>>> will soon be at  >> the core of your IDE?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By adding value.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only
>>>>>> meant as one example to jog discussion, but has arguably
>>>>>> muddied the water now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for
>>>>>> something new to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors
>>>>>> have...and of course there's more than one in 2007 and
>>>>>> beyond.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>>>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>>>>> that would be competitive?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to
>>>>>>> competition  between VS and PB. In order to compete, you
>>>>>>> have to be in the same race  and PB is not and has not
>>>>>>> been since .Net was created over 6 years ago.  Although
>>>>>> they both roughly allow you to create applications, they
>>>>>>> each  allow you to go about the process in completely
>>>>>>> different ways. Define what competition means to Sybase?
>>>>>>> Because from where I'm sitting I  see..1) More .Net
>>>>>>> framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like
>>>>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB
>>>>>>> IDE. All of those  kinda say VS and MS have won. How can
>>>>>>> you say you want to compete with  something that will
>>>>>> soon be at the core of your IDE? >
>>>>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side
>>>>>>> comparison will  confirm that PB is no where close. The
>>>>>>> way the die-hards make it "seem"  close is by lopping
>>>>>>> off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not
>>>>>> important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much
>>>>>>> we normally  disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net)
>>>>>>> are general purpose programming  tools..PB is a
>>>>>>> client/server programming tool. I feel that until that
>>>>>> changes, there is no way to do a comparison. >
>>>>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew
>>>>>>> it. If DW.Net had  release with 1) a fully managed
>>>>>>> implementation and 2) ADO.Net support -  they might have
>>>>>>> had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the
>>>>>> world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a
>>>>>>> competitive  product when Telerik RAD controls are being
>>>>>>> used by DWs when they go to a  web form? Telerik is a
>>>>>>> direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is
>>>>>> that all about? >
>>>>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition
>>>>>>> point is...I would  check the differences between what
>>>>>>> Sybase Engineering has done vs. the  2500+ folks on the
>>>>>>> MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at
>>>>>> beating that many heads with that many man hours by
>>>>>> finding.. >
>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >
>>>>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how
>>>>>>> to follow and stay  close behind. Its the best option
>>>>>>> right now until maybe a better option  presents itself
>>>>>> down the road. >
>>>>>>> Troy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to
>>>>>> comment on how many >> times...
>>>>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to
>>>>>> the user: >> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.),
>>>>>> Database operability AND >> Reporting! Well, I see als
>>>>>> well as many other PB users that some of >> the
>>>>>> implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But
>>>>>> this >> seems not to be the main issue here to be
>>>>>> discussed. Fact is, and I've >> looked around to may other
>>>>>> Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool >> (I did not
>>>>>> find any) which is comparable RAD..." >>
>>>>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >>
>>>>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive
>>>>>> differentiator?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>> 

 PB 12 <vbg>?


"Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message 
news:476a8fd1$1@forums-1-dub...
> Yeah, unfortunately. I'm going to look at this a little more seriously to 
> see if there is a workaround.
>
> I essentially have to eliminate the PBNI dependency. If anyone has any 
> idea's, please let me know.
>
> Brad
>
> Chris Pollach wrote:
>>  Unfortunately, I have found that these do not work or behave improperly 
>> when compiled into a Winform application.
>>
>>
>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message 
>> news:476a7d1b$1@forums-1-dub...
>>> OR use this
>>>
>>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com
>>>
>>> OR
>>>
>>> kodigo.sourceforge.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> jeff wrote:
>>>> ... nice!!!
>>>>
>>>> ... Sybase, hire this guy or buy the CONTROL(s) ...
>>>>
>>>> this is something I would pay extra for in my licence !!!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <dwx> wrote in message news:4769ed04.3286.1681692777@sybase.com...
>>>>> You could start by adding something like this natively to PB
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.felix.fr/produits/flxsuite/flxsuite.cfm
>>>>>
>>>>> no brainer.  Bring the interface of PB apps to the year
>>>>> 2000.
>>>>>
>>>>> A good source control would be great as well
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that
>>>>>> will soon be at  >> the core of your IDE?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By adding value.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only
>>>>>> meant as one example to jog discussion, but has arguably
>>>>>> muddied the water now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for
>>>>>> something new to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors
>>>>>> have...and of course there's more than one in 2007 and
>>>>>> beyond.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>>>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>>>>> that would be competitive?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to
>>>>>>> competition  between VS and PB. In order to compete, you
>>>>>>> have to be in the same race  and PB is not and has not
>>>>>>> been since .Net was created over 6 years ago.  Although
>>>>>> they both roughly allow you to create applications, they
>>>>>>> each  allow you to go about the process in completely
>>>>>>> different ways. Define what competition means to Sybase?
>>>>>>> Because from where I'm sitting I  see..1) More .Net
>>>>>>> framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like
>>>>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB
>>>>>>> IDE. All of those  kinda say VS and MS have won. How can
>>>>>>> you say you want to compete with  something that will
>>>>>> soon be at the core of your IDE? >
>>>>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side
>>>>>>> comparison will  confirm that PB is no where close. The
>>>>>>> way the die-hards make it "seem"  close is by lopping
>>>>>>> off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not
>>>>>> important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much
>>>>>>> we normally  disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net)
>>>>>>> are general purpose programming  tools..PB is a
>>>>>>> client/server programming tool. I feel that until that
>>>>>> changes, there is no way to do a comparison. >
>>>>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew
>>>>>>> it. If DW.Net had  release with 1) a fully managed
>>>>>>> implementation and 2) ADO.Net support -  they might have
>>>>>>> had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the
>>>>>> world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a
>>>>>>> competitive  product when Telerik RAD controls are being
>>>>>>> used by DWs when they go to a  web form? Telerik is a
>>>>>>> direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is
>>>>>> that all about? >
>>>>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition
>>>>>>> point is...I would  check the differences between what
>>>>>>> Sybase Engineering has done vs. the  2500+ folks on the
>>>>>>> MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at
>>>>>> beating that many heads with that many man hours by
>>>>>> finding.. >
>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >
>>>>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how
>>>>>>> to follow and stay  close behind. Its the best option
>>>>>>> right now until maybe a better option  presents itself
>>>>>> down the road. >
>>>>>>> Troy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to
>>>>>> comment on how many >> times...
>>>>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to
>>>>>> the user: >> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.),
>>>>>> Database operability AND >> Reporting! Well, I see als
>>>>>> well as many other PB users that some of >> the
>>>>>> implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But
>>>>>> this >> seems not to be the main issue here to be
>>>>>> discussed. Fact is, and I've >> looked around to may other
>>>>>> Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool >> (I did not
>>>>>> find any) which is comparable RAD..." >>
>>>>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >>
>>>>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive
>>>>>> differentiator?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>> 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------060206010304070500050106
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

There is a nicer tab control at 
advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com (see attached image)

This weekend I'm going to see what I can do to make it work with Winforms.

Brad

jeff wrote:
> the felix options does not work with winform's either... problems with 
> setparent or something.
> 
> the one thing the felix suite has is a nicer tab control ... this is 
> essentially what I am after.
> 
> Any suggestions.
> 
> Thanks
> Jeff
> 
> 
> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:476a8fd1$1@forums-1-dub...
>> Yeah, unfortunately. I'm going to look at this a little more seriously to 
>> see if there is a workaround.
>>
>> I essentially have to eliminate the PBNI dependency. If anyone has any 
>> idea's, please let me know.
>>
>> Brad
>>
>> Chris Pollach wrote:
>>>  Unfortunately, I have found that these do not work or behave improperly 
>>> when compiled into a Winform application.
>>>
>>>
>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message 
>>> news:476a7d1b$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>> OR use this
>>>>
>>>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com
>>>>
>>>> OR
>>>>
>>>> kodigo.sourceforge.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> jeff wrote:
>>>>> ... nice!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> ... Sybase, hire this guy or buy the CONTROL(s) ...
>>>>>
>>>>> this is something I would pay extra for in my licence !!!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <dwx> wrote in message news:4769ed04.3286.1681692777@sybase.com...
>>>>>> You could start by adding something like this natively to PB
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.felix.fr/produits/flxsuite/flxsuite.cfm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> no brainer.  Bring the interface of PB apps to the year
>>>>>> 2000.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A good source control would be great as well
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that
>>>>>>> will soon be at  >> the core of your IDE?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> By adding value.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only
>>>>>>> meant as one example to jog discussion, but has arguably
>>>>>>> muddied the water now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for
>>>>>>> something new to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors
>>>>>>> have...and of course there's more than one in 2007 and
>>>>>>> beyond.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>>>>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>>>>>> that would be competitive?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to
>>>>>>>> competition  between VS and PB. In order to compete, you
>>>>>>>> have to be in the same race  and PB is not and has not
>>>>>>>> been since .Net was created over 6 years ago.  Although
>>>>>>> they both roughly allow you to create applications, they
>>>>>>>> each  allow you to go about the process in completely
>>>>>>>> different ways. Define what competition means to Sybase?
>>>>>>>> Because from where I'm sitting I  see..1) More .Net
>>>>>>>> framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like
>>>>>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB
>>>>>>>> IDE. All of those  kinda say VS and MS have won. How can
>>>>>>>> you say you want to compete with  something that will
>>>>>>> soon be at the core of your IDE? >
>>>>>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side
>>>>>>>> comparison will  confirm that PB is no where close. The
>>>>>>>> way the die-hards make it "seem"  close is by lopping
>>>>>>>> off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not
>>>>>>> important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much
>>>>>>>> we normally  disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net)
>>>>>>>> are general purpose programming  tools..PB is a
>>>>>>>> client/server programming tool. I feel that until that
>>>>>>> changes, there is no way to do a comparison. >
>>>>>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew
>>>>>>>> it. If DW.Net had  release with 1) a fully managed
>>>>>>>> implementation and 2) ADO.Net support -  they might have
>>>>>>>> had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the
>>>>>>> world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a
>>>>>>>> competitive  product when Telerik RAD controls are being
>>>>>>>> used by DWs when they go to a  web form? Telerik is a
>>>>>>>> direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is
>>>>>>> that all about? >
>>>>>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition
>>>>>>>> point is...I would  check the differences between what
>>>>>>>> Sybase Engineering has done vs. the  2500+ folks on the
>>>>>>>> MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at
>>>>>>> beating that many heads with that many man hours by
>>>>>>> finding.. >
>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >
>>>>>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how
>>>>>>>> to follow and stay  close behind. Its the best option
>>>>>>>> right now until maybe a better option  presents itself
>>>>>>> down the road. >
>>>>>>>> Troy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to
>>>>>>> comment on how many >> times...
>>>>>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to
>>>>>>> the user: >> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.),
>>>>>>> Database operability AND >> Reporting! Well, I see als
>>>>>>> well as many other PB users that some of >> the
>>>>>>> implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But
>>>>>>> this >> seems not to be the main issue here to be
>>>>>>> discussed. Fact is, and I've >> looked around to may other
>>>>>>> Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool >> (I did not
>>>>>>> find any) which is comparable RAD..." >>
>>>>>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >>
>>>>>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive
>>>>>>> differentiator?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
> 
> 

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--------------060206010304070500050106--

i see now that I have downloaded it ...

very nice ... good job  ... and thank you!



"Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message 
news:476a93a3$1@forums-1-dub...
> There is a nicer tab control at
> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com (see attached image)
>
> This weekend I'm going to see what I can do to make it work with Winforms.
>
> Brad
>
> jeff wrote:
>> the felix options does not work with winform's either... problems with
>> setparent or something.
>>
>> the one thing the felix suite has is a nicer tab control ... this is
>> essentially what I am after.
>>
>> Any suggestions.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:476a8fd1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>> Yeah, unfortunately. I'm going to look at this a little more seriously 
>>> to
>>> see if there is a workaround.
>>>
>>> I essentially have to eliminate the PBNI dependency. If anyone has any
>>> idea's, please let me know.
>>>
>>> Brad
>>>
>>> Chris Pollach wrote:
>>>>  Unfortunately, I have found that these do not work or behave 
>>>> improperly
>>>> when compiled into a Winform application.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:476a7d1b$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>> OR use this
>>>>>
>>>>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com
>>>>>
>>>>> OR
>>>>>
>>>>> kodigo.sourceforge.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> jeff wrote:
>>>>>> ... nice!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ... Sybase, hire this guy or buy the CONTROL(s) ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> this is something I would pay extra for in my licence !!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <dwx> wrote in message news:4769ed04.3286.1681692777@sybase.com...
>>>>>>> You could start by adding something like this natively to PB
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.felix.fr/produits/flxsuite/flxsuite.cfm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> no brainer.  Bring the interface of PB apps to the year
>>>>>>> 2000.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A good source control would be great as well
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that
>>>>>>>> will soon be at  >> the core of your IDE?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> By adding value.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only
>>>>>>>> meant as one example to jog discussion, but has arguably
>>>>>>>> muddied the water now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>> something new to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors
>>>>>>>> have...and of course there's more than one in 2007 and
>>>>>>>> beyond.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>>>>>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>>>>>>> that would be competitive?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to
>>>>>>>>> competition  between VS and PB. In order to compete, you
>>>>>>>>> have to be in the same race  and PB is not and has not
>>>>>>>>> been since .Net was created over 6 years ago.  Although
>>>>>>>> they both roughly allow you to create applications, they
>>>>>>>>> each  allow you to go about the process in completely
>>>>>>>>> different ways. Define what competition means to Sybase?
>>>>>>>>> Because from where I'm sitting I  see..1) More .Net
>>>>>>>>> framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like
>>>>>>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB
>>>>>>>>> IDE. All of those  kinda say VS and MS have won. How can
>>>>>>>>> you say you want to compete with  something that will
>>>>>>>> soon be at the core of your IDE? >
>>>>>>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side
>>>>>>>>> comparison will  confirm that PB is no where close. The
>>>>>>>>> way the die-hards make it "seem"  close is by lopping
>>>>>>>>> off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not
>>>>>>>> important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much
>>>>>>>>> we normally  disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net)
>>>>>>>>> are general purpose programming  tools..PB is a
>>>>>>>>> client/server programming tool. I feel that until that
>>>>>>>> changes, there is no way to do a comparison. >
>>>>>>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew
>>>>>>>>> it. If DW.Net had  release with 1) a fully managed
>>>>>>>>> implementation and 2) ADO.Net support -  they might have
>>>>>>>>> had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the
>>>>>>>> world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a
>>>>>>>>> competitive  product when Telerik RAD controls are being
>>>>>>>>> used by DWs when they go to a  web form? Telerik is a
>>>>>>>>> direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is
>>>>>>>> that all about? >
>>>>>>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition
>>>>>>>>> point is...I would  check the differences between what
>>>>>>>>> Sybase Engineering has done vs. the  2500+ folks on the
>>>>>>>>> MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at
>>>>>>>> beating that many heads with that many man hours by
>>>>>>>> finding.. >
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >
>>>>>>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how
>>>>>>>>> to follow and stay  close behind. Its the best option
>>>>>>>>> right now until maybe a better option  presents itself
>>>>>>>> down the road. >
>>>>>>>>> Troy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to
>>>>>>>> comment on how many >> times...
>>>>>>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>>>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>>>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to
>>>>>>>> the user: >> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.),
>>>>>>>> Database operability AND >> Reporting! Well, I see als
>>>>>>>> well as many other PB users that some of >> the
>>>>>>>> implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But
>>>>>>>> this >> seems not to be the main issue here to be
>>>>>>>> discussed. Fact is, and I've >> looked around to may other
>>>>>>>> Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool >> (I did not
>>>>>>>> find any) which is comparable RAD..." >>
>>>>>>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>>>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>>>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>>>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>>>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>>>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>>>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >>
>>>>>>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>>>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>>>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>>>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>>>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive
>>>>>>>> differentiator?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>
>>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm with you on most of this, but you lost me on the CREATE syntax....
CREATE vs. new... potato/potatoh....  Within our .NET code blocks
(yes, not my favorite either) we do allow for parameterized
constructors, so the only difference is the keyword CREATE versus new.
Given the vast amount of code samples out there though, I wouldn't be
averse to adding 'new' as a synoynm for CREATE.  I don't see the
CREATE/new issue really being all that damning, now some of the other
stuff... <g>


On 20 Dec 2007 05:57:51 -0800, Troy <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com>
wrote:

>I like the idea but no solution should "limit" anything. Thats what got us here in the first place. Secondly, no where near all possible C# code will convert to Powerscript. Those languages are vastly different. Why would we want to convert it in only to turn around and convert back out to C# for the build? I also think parsing and syntax checking would be a nightmare as seen in another thread..folks want more intellisense like features in the IDE.
>
>What it sounds like is that we are getting close to some sort of directive approach like ASP.NEt uses to specify the language used. If Sybase follows through with purely managed versions of their libraries, then allowing you to make a language choice would be and IDE change only, right? But then again, I haven't heard for sure if the managed versions of the libraries they are creating are meant for consumption outside of PB.
>
>Although I see where Dean is coming from, allowing multiple language use at the event level would constitute another form of spaghetti code. Even on the VS side where we have language choices, we draw the boundary at the project level partly because we have to but mainly because we should. By allowing folks to go in and out of languages we would inadvertently hamper productivity when people got there CREATES and NEW mixed up.
>
>Lastly, for the .Net targets, everything should use NEW and not the legacy OLE(?) CREATE syntax. My reasoning is simple. The .Net framework objects have REAL constructors and most of them are overloaded many times over. To get the most of the .Net framework, developers need to learn it and using legacy syntax that gets converted to proper syntax is not learning it. To see that CREATE statement near a fully qualified .Net object is a shining example of how "off" the .Net integration to this point has been.
>
>
>Troy

 Unfortunately, this would only help any new applications - not the 1K's of 
existing ones out there. :-(


"jeff" <jhersey at allnorth dottt com> wrote in message 
news:476a951e$1@forums-1-dub...
>i see now that I have downloaded it ...
>
> very nice ... good job  ... and thank you!
>
>
>
> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:476a93a3$1@forums-1-dub...
>> There is a nicer tab control at
>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com (see attached image)
>>
>> This weekend I'm going to see what I can do to make it work with 
>> Winforms.
>>
>> Brad
>>
>> jeff wrote:
>>> the felix options does not work with winform's either... problems with
>>> setparent or something.
>>>
>>> the one thing the felix suite has is a nicer tab control ... this is
>>> essentially what I am after.
>>>
>>> Any suggestions.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:476a8fd1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>> Yeah, unfortunately. I'm going to look at this a little more seriously 
>>>> to
>>>> see if there is a workaround.
>>>>
>>>> I essentially have to eliminate the PBNI dependency. If anyone has any
>>>> idea's, please let me know.
>>>>
>>>> Brad
>>>>
>>>> Chris Pollach wrote:
>>>>>  Unfortunately, I have found that these do not work or behave 
>>>>> improperly
>>>>> when compiled into a Winform application.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:476a7d1b$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>> OR use this
>>>>>>
>>>>>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OR
>>>>>>
>>>>>> kodigo.sourceforge.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> jeff wrote:
>>>>>>> ... nice!!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ... Sybase, hire this guy or buy the CONTROL(s) ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> this is something I would pay extra for in my licence !!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <dwx> wrote in message news:4769ed04.3286.1681692777@sybase.com...
>>>>>>>> You could start by adding something like this natively to PB
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.felix.fr/produits/flxsuite/flxsuite.cfm
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> no brainer.  Bring the interface of PB apps to the year
>>>>>>>> 2000.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A good source control would be great as well
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that
>>>>>>>>> will soon be at  >> the core of your IDE?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> By adding value.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only
>>>>>>>>> meant as one example to jog discussion, but has arguably
>>>>>>>>> muddied the water now.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>>> something new to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors
>>>>>>>>> have...and of course there's more than one in 2007 and
>>>>>>>>> beyond.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>>>>>>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>>>>>>>> that would be competitive?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to
>>>>>>>>>> competition  between VS and PB. In order to compete, you
>>>>>>>>>> have to be in the same race  and PB is not and has not
>>>>>>>>>> been since .Net was created over 6 years ago.  Although
>>>>>>>>> they both roughly allow you to create applications, they
>>>>>>>>>> each  allow you to go about the process in completely
>>>>>>>>>> different ways. Define what competition means to Sybase?
>>>>>>>>>> Because from where I'm sitting I  see..1) More .Net
>>>>>>>>>> framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like
>>>>>>>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB
>>>>>>>>>> IDE. All of those  kinda say VS and MS have won. How can
>>>>>>>>>> you say you want to compete with  something that will
>>>>>>>>> soon be at the core of your IDE? >
>>>>>>>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side
>>>>>>>>>> comparison will  confirm that PB is no where close. The
>>>>>>>>>> way the die-hards make it "seem"  close is by lopping
>>>>>>>>>> off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not
>>>>>>>>> important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much
>>>>>>>>>> we normally  disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net)
>>>>>>>>>> are general purpose programming  tools..PB is a
>>>>>>>>>> client/server programming tool. I feel that until that
>>>>>>>>> changes, there is no way to do a comparison. >
>>>>>>>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew
>>>>>>>>>> it. If DW.Net had  release with 1) a fully managed
>>>>>>>>>> implementation and 2) ADO.Net support -  they might have
>>>>>>>>>> had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the
>>>>>>>>> world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a
>>>>>>>>>> competitive  product when Telerik RAD controls are being
>>>>>>>>>> used by DWs when they go to a  web form? Telerik is a
>>>>>>>>>> direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is
>>>>>>>>> that all about? >
>>>>>>>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition
>>>>>>>>>> point is...I would  check the differences between what
>>>>>>>>>> Sybase Engineering has done vs. the  2500+ folks on the
>>>>>>>>>> MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at
>>>>>>>>> beating that many heads with that many man hours by
>>>>>>>>> finding.. >
>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >
>>>>>>>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how
>>>>>>>>>> to follow and stay  close behind. Its the best option
>>>>>>>>>> right now until maybe a better option  presents itself
>>>>>>>>> down the road. >
>>>>>>>>>> Troy
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to
>>>>>>>>> comment on how many >> times...
>>>>>>>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>>>>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>>>>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to
>>>>>>>>> the user: >> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.),
>>>>>>>>> Database operability AND >> Reporting! Well, I see als
>>>>>>>>> well as many other PB users that some of >> the
>>>>>>>>> implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But
>>>>>>>>> this >> seems not to be the main issue here to be
>>>>>>>>> discussed. Fact is, and I've >> looked around to may other
>>>>>>>>> Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool >> (I did not
>>>>>>>>> find any) which is comparable RAD..." >>
>>>>>>>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>>>>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>>>>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>>>>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>>>>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>>>>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>>>>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >>
>>>>>>>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>>>>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>>>>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>>>>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>>>>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive
>>>>>>>>> differentiator?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> 

fine by me, i have 3 new apps already lines up for next year ... 2 must be 
down in PB ... so, if I can get a solid framework with these additional 
controls, it will be a easy sell to do all 3 in PB ... thought I had to move 
away from PB...

Jeff


"Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote in message 
news:476aa1bc$1@forums-1-dub...
>
> Unfortunately, this would only help any new applications - not the 1K's of 
> existing ones out there. :-(
>
>
> "jeff" <jhersey at allnorth dottt com> wrote in message 
> news:476a951e$1@forums-1-dub...
>>i see now that I have downloaded it ...
>>
>> very nice ... good job  ... and thank you!
>>
>>
>>
>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message 
>> news:476a93a3$1@forums-1-dub...
>>> There is a nicer tab control at
>>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com (see attached image)
>>>
>>> This weekend I'm going to see what I can do to make it work with 
>>> Winforms.
>>>
>>> Brad
>>>
>>> jeff wrote:
>>>> the felix options does not work with winform's either... problems with
>>>> setparent or something.
>>>>
>>>> the one thing the felix suite has is a nicer tab control ... this is
>>>> essentially what I am after.
>>>>
>>>> Any suggestions.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Jeff
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:476a8fd1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>> Yeah, unfortunately. I'm going to look at this a little more seriously 
>>>>> to
>>>>> see if there is a workaround.
>>>>>
>>>>> I essentially have to eliminate the PBNI dependency. If anyone has any
>>>>> idea's, please let me know.
>>>>>
>>>>> Brad
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris Pollach wrote:
>>>>>>  Unfortunately, I have found that these do not work or behave 
>>>>>> improperly
>>>>>> when compiled into a Winform application.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:476a7d1b$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>> OR use this
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OR
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> kodigo.sourceforge.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> jeff wrote:
>>>>>>>> ... nice!!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ... Sybase, hire this guy or buy the CONTROL(s) ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> this is something I would pay extra for in my licence !!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <dwx> wrote in message news:4769ed04.3286.1681692777@sybase.com...
>>>>>>>>> You could start by adding something like this natively to PB
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.felix.fr/produits/flxsuite/flxsuite.cfm
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> no brainer.  Bring the interface of PB apps to the year
>>>>>>>>> 2000.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A good source control would be great as well
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that
>>>>>>>>>> will soon be at  >> the core of your IDE?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> By adding value.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only
>>>>>>>>>> meant as one example to jog discussion, but has arguably
>>>>>>>>>> muddied the water now.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>>>> something new to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors
>>>>>>>>>> have...and of course there's more than one in 2007 and
>>>>>>>>>> beyond.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>>>>>>>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>>>>>>>>> that would be competitive?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>>>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to
>>>>>>>>>>> competition  between VS and PB. In order to compete, you
>>>>>>>>>>> have to be in the same race  and PB is not and has not
>>>>>>>>>>> been since .Net was created over 6 years ago.  Although
>>>>>>>>>> they both roughly allow you to create applications, they
>>>>>>>>>>> each  allow you to go about the process in completely
>>>>>>>>>>> different ways. Define what competition means to Sybase?
>>>>>>>>>>> Because from where I'm sitting I  see..1) More .Net
>>>>>>>>>>> framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like
>>>>>>>>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB
>>>>>>>>>>> IDE. All of those  kinda say VS and MS have won. How can
>>>>>>>>>>> you say you want to compete with  something that will
>>>>>>>>>> soon be at the core of your IDE? >
>>>>>>>>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side
>>>>>>>>>>> comparison will  confirm that PB is no where close. The
>>>>>>>>>>> way the die-hards make it "seem"  close is by lopping
>>>>>>>>>>> off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not
>>>>>>>>>> important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much
>>>>>>>>>>> we normally  disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net)
>>>>>>>>>>> are general purpose programming  tools..PB is a
>>>>>>>>>>> client/server programming tool. I feel that until that
>>>>>>>>>> changes, there is no way to do a comparison. >
>>>>>>>>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew
>>>>>>>>>>> it. If DW.Net had  release with 1) a fully managed
>>>>>>>>>>> implementation and 2) ADO.Net support -  they might have
>>>>>>>>>>> had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the
>>>>>>>>>> world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a
>>>>>>>>>>> competitive  product when Telerik RAD controls are being
>>>>>>>>>>> used by DWs when they go to a  web form? Telerik is a
>>>>>>>>>>> direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is
>>>>>>>>>> that all about? >
>>>>>>>>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition
>>>>>>>>>>> point is...I would  check the differences between what
>>>>>>>>>>> Sybase Engineering has done vs. the  2500+ folks on the
>>>>>>>>>>> MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at
>>>>>>>>>> beating that many heads with that many man hours by
>>>>>>>>>> finding.. >
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >
>>>>>>>>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how
>>>>>>>>>>> to follow and stay  close behind. Its the best option
>>>>>>>>>>> right now until maybe a better option  presents itself
>>>>>>>>>> down the road. >
>>>>>>>>>>> Troy
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to
>>>>>>>>>> comment on how many >> times...
>>>>>>>>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>>>>>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>>>>>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to
>>>>>>>>>> the user: >> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.),
>>>>>>>>>> Database operability AND >> Reporting! Well, I see als
>>>>>>>>>> well as many other PB users that some of >> the
>>>>>>>>>> implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But
>>>>>>>>>> this >> seems not to be the main issue here to be
>>>>>>>>>> discussed. Fact is, and I've >> looked around to may other
>>>>>>>>>> Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool >> (I did not
>>>>>>>>>> find any) which is comparable RAD..." >>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>>>>>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>>>>>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>>>>>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>>>>>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>>>>>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>>>>>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>>>>>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>>>>>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>>>>>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>>>>>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive
>>>>>>>>>> differentiator?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> 

That's great news. I think the controls work very well. I use them all 
the time.

jeff wrote:
> fine by me, i have 3 new apps already lines up for next year ... 2 must be 
> down in PB ... so, if I can get a solid framework with these additional 
> controls, it will be a easy sell to do all 3 in PB ... thought I had to move 
> away from PB...
> 
> Jeff
> 
> 
> "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote in message 
> news:476aa1bc$1@forums-1-dub...
>> Unfortunately, this would only help any new applications - not the 1K's of 
>> existing ones out there. :-(
>>
>>
>> "jeff" <jhersey at allnorth dottt com> wrote in message 
>> news:476a951e$1@forums-1-dub...
>>> i see now that I have downloaded it ...
>>>
>>> very nice ... good job  ... and thank you!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message 
>>> news:476a93a3$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>> There is a nicer tab control at
>>>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com (see attached image)
>>>>
>>>> This weekend I'm going to see what I can do to make it work with 
>>>> Winforms.
>>>>
>>>> Brad
>>>>
>>>> jeff wrote:
>>>>> the felix options does not work with winform's either... problems with
>>>>> setparent or something.
>>>>>
>>>>> the one thing the felix suite has is a nicer tab control ... this is
>>>>> essentially what I am after.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any suggestions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:476a8fd1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>> Yeah, unfortunately. I'm going to look at this a little more seriously 
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> see if there is a workaround.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I essentially have to eliminate the PBNI dependency. If anyone has any
>>>>>> idea's, please let me know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brad
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chris Pollach wrote:
>>>>>>>  Unfortunately, I have found that these do not work or behave 
>>>>>>> improperly
>>>>>>> when compiled into a Winform application.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:476a7d1b$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>>> OR use this
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OR
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> kodigo.sourceforge.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> jeff wrote:
>>>>>>>>> ... nice!!!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ... Sybase, hire this guy or buy the CONTROL(s) ...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> this is something I would pay extra for in my licence !!!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <dwx> wrote in message news:4769ed04.3286.1681692777@sybase.com...
>>>>>>>>>> You could start by adding something like this natively to PB
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.felix.fr/produits/flxsuite/flxsuite.cfm
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> no brainer.  Bring the interface of PB apps to the year
>>>>>>>>>> 2000.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A good source control would be great as well
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that
>>>>>>>>>>> will soon be at  >> the core of your IDE?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> By adding value.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only
>>>>>>>>>>> meant as one example to jog discussion, but has arguably
>>>>>>>>>>> muddied the water now.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>>>>> something new to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors
>>>>>>>>>>> have...and of course there's more than one in 2007 and
>>>>>>>>>>> beyond.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>>>>>>>>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>>>>>>>>>> that would be competitive?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to
>>>>>>>>>>>> competition  between VS and PB. In order to compete, you
>>>>>>>>>>>> have to be in the same race  and PB is not and has not
>>>>>>>>>>>> been since .Net was created over 6 years ago.  Although
>>>>>>>>>>> they both roughly allow you to create applications, they
>>>>>>>>>>>> each  allow you to go about the process in completely
>>>>>>>>>>>> different ways. Define what competition means to Sybase?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Because from where I'm sitting I  see..1) More .Net
>>>>>>>>>>>> framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like
>>>>>>>>>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB
>>>>>>>>>>>> IDE. All of those  kinda say VS and MS have won. How can
>>>>>>>>>>>> you say you want to compete with  something that will
>>>>>>>>>>> soon be at the core of your IDE? >
>>>>>>>>>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side
>>>>>>>>>>>> comparison will  confirm that PB is no where close. The
>>>>>>>>>>>> way the die-hards make it "seem"  close is by lopping
>>>>>>>>>>>> off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not
>>>>>>>>>>> important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much
>>>>>>>>>>>> we normally  disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net)
>>>>>>>>>>>> are general purpose programming  tools..PB is a
>>>>>>>>>>>> client/server programming tool. I feel that until that
>>>>>>>>>>> changes, there is no way to do a comparison. >
>>>>>>>>>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew
>>>>>>>>>>>> it. If DW.Net had  release with 1) a fully managed
>>>>>>>>>>>> implementation and 2) ADO.Net support -  they might have
>>>>>>>>>>>> had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the
>>>>>>>>>>> world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a
>>>>>>>>>>>> competitive  product when Telerik RAD controls are being
>>>>>>>>>>>> used by DWs when they go to a  web form? Telerik is a
>>>>>>>>>>>> direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is
>>>>>>>>>>> that all about? >
>>>>>>>>>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition
>>>>>>>>>>>> point is...I would  check the differences between what
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sybase Engineering has done vs. the  2500+ folks on the
>>>>>>>>>>>> MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at
>>>>>>>>>>> beating that many heads with that many man hours by
>>>>>>>>>>> finding.. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >
>>>>>>>>>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how
>>>>>>>>>>>> to follow and stay  close behind. Its the best option
>>>>>>>>>>>> right now until maybe a better option  presents itself
>>>>>>>>>>> down the road. >
>>>>>>>>>>>> Troy
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to
>>>>>>>>>>> comment on how many >> times...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>>>>>>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to
>>>>>>>>>>> the user: >> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.),
>>>>>>>>>>> Database operability AND >> Reporting! Well, I see als
>>>>>>>>>>> well as many other PB users that some of >> the
>>>>>>>>>>> implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But
>>>>>>>>>>> this >> seems not to be the main issue here to be
>>>>>>>>>>> discussed. Fact is, and I've >> looked around to may other
>>>>>>>>>>> Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool >> (I did not
>>>>>>>>>>> find any) which is comparable RAD..." >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>>>>>>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive
>>>>>>>>>>> differentiator?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> 
> 

 Cool ... go for it!

FWIW: Just remember that you might have to rewrite the applications in PB 12 
if they decide to go full .Net and no more Win32.



"jeff" <jhersey at allnorth dottt com> wrote in message 
news:476aa475$1@forums-1-dub...
>
> fine by me, i have 3 new apps already lines up for next year ... 2 must be 
> down in PB ... so, if I can get a solid framework with these additional 
> controls, it will be a easy sell to do all 3 in PB ... thought I had to 
> move away from PB...
>
> Jeff
>
>
> "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote in message 
> news:476aa1bc$1@forums-1-dub...
>>
>> Unfortunately, this would only help any new applications - not the 1K's 
>> of existing ones out there. :-(
>>
>>
>> "jeff" <jhersey at allnorth dottt com> wrote in message 
>> news:476a951e$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>i see now that I have downloaded it ...
>>>
>>> very nice ... good job  ... and thank you!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message 
>>> news:476a93a3$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>> There is a nicer tab control at
>>>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com (see attached image)
>>>>
>>>> This weekend I'm going to see what I can do to make it work with 
>>>> Winforms.
>>>>
>>>> Brad
>>>>
>>>> jeff wrote:
>>>>> the felix options does not work with winform's either... problems with
>>>>> setparent or something.
>>>>>
>>>>> the one thing the felix suite has is a nicer tab control ... this is
>>>>> essentially what I am after.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any suggestions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:476a8fd1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>> Yeah, unfortunately. I'm going to look at this a little more 
>>>>>> seriously to
>>>>>> see if there is a workaround.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I essentially have to eliminate the PBNI dependency. If anyone has 
>>>>>> any
>>>>>> idea's, please let me know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brad
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chris Pollach wrote:
>>>>>>>  Unfortunately, I have found that these do not work or behave 
>>>>>>> improperly
>>>>>>> when compiled into a Winform application.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:476a7d1b$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>>> OR use this
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OR
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> kodigo.sourceforge.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> jeff wrote:
>>>>>>>>> ... nice!!!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ... Sybase, hire this guy or buy the CONTROL(s) ...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> this is something I would pay extra for in my licence !!!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <dwx> wrote in message news:4769ed04.3286.1681692777@sybase.com...
>>>>>>>>>> You could start by adding something like this natively to PB
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.felix.fr/produits/flxsuite/flxsuite.cfm
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> no brainer.  Bring the interface of PB apps to the year
>>>>>>>>>> 2000.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A good source control would be great as well
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that
>>>>>>>>>>> will soon be at  >> the core of your IDE?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> By adding value.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only
>>>>>>>>>>> meant as one example to jog discussion, but has arguably
>>>>>>>>>>> muddied the water now.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>>>>> something new to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors
>>>>>>>>>>> have...and of course there's more than one in 2007 and
>>>>>>>>>>> beyond.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>>>>>>>>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>>>>>>>>>> that would be competitive?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to
>>>>>>>>>>>> competition  between VS and PB. In order to compete, you
>>>>>>>>>>>> have to be in the same race  and PB is not and has not
>>>>>>>>>>>> been since .Net was created over 6 years ago.  Although
>>>>>>>>>>> they both roughly allow you to create applications, they
>>>>>>>>>>>> each  allow you to go about the process in completely
>>>>>>>>>>>> different ways. Define what competition means to Sybase?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Because from where I'm sitting I  see..1) More .Net
>>>>>>>>>>>> framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like
>>>>>>>>>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB
>>>>>>>>>>>> IDE. All of those  kinda say VS and MS have won. How can
>>>>>>>>>>>> you say you want to compete with  something that will
>>>>>>>>>>> soon be at the core of your IDE? >
>>>>>>>>>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side
>>>>>>>>>>>> comparison will  confirm that PB is no where close. The
>>>>>>>>>>>> way the die-hards make it "seem"  close is by lopping
>>>>>>>>>>>> off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not
>>>>>>>>>>> important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much
>>>>>>>>>>>> we normally  disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net)
>>>>>>>>>>>> are general purpose programming  tools..PB is a
>>>>>>>>>>>> client/server programming tool. I feel that until that
>>>>>>>>>>> changes, there is no way to do a comparison. >
>>>>>>>>>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew
>>>>>>>>>>>> it. If DW.Net had  release with 1) a fully managed
>>>>>>>>>>>> implementation and 2) ADO.Net support -  they might have
>>>>>>>>>>>> had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the
>>>>>>>>>>> world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a
>>>>>>>>>>>> competitive  product when Telerik RAD controls are being
>>>>>>>>>>>> used by DWs when they go to a  web form? Telerik is a
>>>>>>>>>>>> direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is
>>>>>>>>>>> that all about? >
>>>>>>>>>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition
>>>>>>>>>>>> point is...I would  check the differences between what
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sybase Engineering has done vs. the  2500+ folks on the
>>>>>>>>>>>> MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at
>>>>>>>>>>> beating that many heads with that many man hours by
>>>>>>>>>>> finding.. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >
>>>>>>>>>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how
>>>>>>>>>>>> to follow and stay  close behind. Its the best option
>>>>>>>>>>>> right now until maybe a better option  presents itself
>>>>>>>>>>> down the road. >
>>>>>>>>>>>> Troy
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to
>>>>>>>>>>> comment on how many >> times...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>>>>>>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to
>>>>>>>>>>> the user: >> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.),
>>>>>>>>>>> Database operability AND >> Reporting! Well, I see als
>>>>>>>>>>> well as many other PB users that some of >> the
>>>>>>>>>>> implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But
>>>>>>>>>>> this >> seems not to be the main issue here to be
>>>>>>>>>>> discussed. Fact is, and I've >> looked around to may other
>>>>>>>>>>> Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool >> (I did not
>>>>>>>>>>> find any) which is comparable RAD..." >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>>>>>>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive
>>>>>>>>>>> differentiator?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> 

if i have to wait for pb 12 ... that still gives me at least 2 good years - 
right?

You gain the trust of the client and anything is possible -> rewrite ... 
upgrade.

However, win32 to winform should not be an issue (regarding these controls), 
if PB 12 supports the use of custom built visual controls, theoretically, 
one should be able to replace these controls at the root level, leaving the 
presentation and UI logic in place ...  thus not requiring a huge re-write.

Jeff.


"Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote in message 
news:476aa923@forums-1-dub...
>
> Cool ... go for it!
>
> FWIW: Just remember that you might have to rewrite the applications in PB 
> 12 if they decide to go full .Net and no more Win32.
>
>
>
> "jeff" <jhersey at allnorth dottt com> wrote in message 
> news:476aa475$1@forums-1-dub...
>>
>> fine by me, i have 3 new apps already lines up for next year ... 2 must 
>> be down in PB ... so, if I can get a solid framework with these 
>> additional controls, it will be a easy sell to do all 3 in PB ... thought 
>> I had to move away from PB...
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote in message 
>> news:476aa1bc$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, this would only help any new applications - not the 1K's 
>>> of existing ones out there. :-(
>>>
>>>
>>> "jeff" <jhersey at allnorth dottt com> wrote in message 
>>> news:476a951e$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>i see now that I have downloaded it ...
>>>>
>>>> very nice ... good job  ... and thank you!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message 
>>>> news:476a93a3$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>> There is a nicer tab control at
>>>>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com (see attached image)
>>>>>
>>>>> This weekend I'm going to see what I can do to make it work with 
>>>>> Winforms.
>>>>>
>>>>> Brad
>>>>>
>>>>> jeff wrote:
>>>>>> the felix options does not work with winform's either... problems 
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> setparent or something.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the one thing the felix suite has is a nicer tab control ... this is
>>>>>> essentially what I am after.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any suggestions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:476a8fd1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>> Yeah, unfortunately. I'm going to look at this a little more 
>>>>>>> seriously to
>>>>>>> see if there is a workaround.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I essentially have to eliminate the PBNI dependency. If anyone has 
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>> idea's, please let me know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brad
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Chris Pollach wrote:
>>>>>>>>  Unfortunately, I have found that these do not work or behave 
>>>>>>>> improperly
>>>>>>>> when compiled into a Winform application.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:476a7d1b$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>>>> OR use this
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OR
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> kodigo.sourceforge.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> jeff wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> ... nice!!!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ... Sybase, hire this guy or buy the CONTROL(s) ...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> this is something I would pay extra for in my licence !!!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <dwx> wrote in message 
>>>>>>>>>> news:4769ed04.3286.1681692777@sybase.com...
>>>>>>>>>>> You could start by adding something like this natively to PB
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.felix.fr/produits/flxsuite/flxsuite.cfm
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> no brainer.  Bring the interface of PB apps to the year
>>>>>>>>>>> 2000.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A good source control would be great as well
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that
>>>>>>>>>>>> will soon be at  >> the core of your IDE?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> By adding value.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only
>>>>>>>>>>>> meant as one example to jog discussion, but has arguably
>>>>>>>>>>>> muddied the water now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>>>>>> something new to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors
>>>>>>>>>>>> have...and of course there's more than one in 2007 and
>>>>>>>>>>>> beyond.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>>>>>>>>>>> that would be competitive?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> competition  between VS and PB. In order to compete, you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to be in the same race  and PB is not and has not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> been since .Net was created over 6 years ago.  Although
>>>>>>>>>>>> they both roughly allow you to create applications, they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> each  allow you to go about the process in completely
>>>>>>>>>>>>> different ways. Define what competition means to Sybase?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because from where I'm sitting I  see..1) More .Net
>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like
>>>>>>>>>>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB
>>>>>>>>>>>>> IDE. All of those  kinda say VS and MS have won. How can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you say you want to compete with  something that will
>>>>>>>>>>>> soon be at the core of your IDE? >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side
>>>>>>>>>>>>> comparison will  confirm that PB is no where close. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>> way the die-hards make it "seem"  close is by lopping
>>>>>>>>>>>>> off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not
>>>>>>>>>>>> important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we normally  disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are general purpose programming  tools..PB is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> client/server programming tool. I feel that until that
>>>>>>>>>>>> changes, there is no way to do a comparison. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. If DW.Net had  release with 1) a fully managed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> implementation and 2) ADO.Net support -  they might have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> competitive  product when Telerik RAD controls are being
>>>>>>>>>>>>> used by DWs when they go to a  web form? Telerik is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is
>>>>>>>>>>>> that all about? >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition
>>>>>>>>>>>>> point is...I would  check the differences between what
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sybase Engineering has done vs. the  2500+ folks on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at
>>>>>>>>>>>> beating that many heads with that many man hours by
>>>>>>>>>>>> finding.. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>>>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to follow and stay  close behind. Its the best option
>>>>>>>>>>>>> right now until maybe a better option  presents itself
>>>>>>>>>>>> down the road. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Troy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to
>>>>>>>>>>>> comment on how many >> times...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to
>>>>>>>>>>>> the user: >> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.),
>>>>>>>>>>>> Database operability AND >> Reporting! Well, I see als
>>>>>>>>>>>> well as many other PB users that some of >> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But
>>>>>>>>>>>> this >> seems not to be the main issue here to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> discussed. Fact is, and I've >> looked around to may other
>>>>>>>>>>>> Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool >> (I did not
>>>>>>>>>>>> find any) which is comparable RAD..." >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>>>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive
>>>>>>>>>>>> differentiator?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> 

Before that goes into the rumor mill....

	Win32 DEPLOYMENT WILL BE PART OF POWERBUILDER 12.

On 20 Dec 2007 09:40:51 -0800, "Chris Pollach"
<cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:

>
> Cool ... go for it!
>
>FWIW: Just remember that you might have to rewrite the applications in PB 12 
>if they decide to go full .Net and no more Win32.
>
>
>
>"jeff" <jhersey at allnorth dottt com> wrote in message 
>news:476aa475$1@forums-1-dub...
>>
>> fine by me, i have 3 new apps already lines up for next year ... 2 must be 
>> down in PB ... so, if I can get a solid framework with these additional 
>> controls, it will be a easy sell to do all 3 in PB ... thought I had to 
>> move away from PB...
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote in message 
>> news:476aa1bc$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, this would only help any new applications - not the 1K's 
>>> of existing ones out there. :-(
>>>
>>>
>>> "jeff" <jhersey at allnorth dottt com> wrote in message 
>>> news:476a951e$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>i see now that I have downloaded it ...
>>>>
>>>> very nice ... good job  ... and thank you!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message 
>>>> news:476a93a3$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>> There is a nicer tab control at
>>>>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com (see attached image)
>>>>>
>>>>> This weekend I'm going to see what I can do to make it work with 
>>>>> Winforms.
>>>>>
>>>>> Brad
>>>>>
>>>>> jeff wrote:
>>>>>> the felix options does not work with winform's either... problems with
>>>>>> setparent or something.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the one thing the felix suite has is a nicer tab control ... this is
>>>>>> essentially what I am after.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any suggestions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:476a8fd1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>> Yeah, unfortunately. I'm going to look at this a little more 
>>>>>>> seriously to
>>>>>>> see if there is a workaround.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I essentially have to eliminate the PBNI dependency. If anyone has 
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>> idea's, please let me know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brad
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Chris Pollach wrote:
>>>>>>>>  Unfortunately, I have found that these do not work or behave 
>>>>>>>> improperly
>>>>>>>> when compiled into a Winform application.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:476a7d1b$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>>>> OR use this
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OR
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> kodigo.sourceforge.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> jeff wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> ... nice!!!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ... Sybase, hire this guy or buy the CONTROL(s) ...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> this is something I would pay extra for in my licence !!!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <dwx> wrote in message news:4769ed04.3286.1681692777@sybase.com...
>>>>>>>>>>> You could start by adding something like this natively to PB
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.felix.fr/produits/flxsuite/flxsuite.cfm
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> no brainer.  Bring the interface of PB apps to the year
>>>>>>>>>>> 2000.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A good source control would be great as well
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that
>>>>>>>>>>>> will soon be at  >> the core of your IDE?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> By adding value.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only
>>>>>>>>>>>> meant as one example to jog discussion, but has arguably
>>>>>>>>>>>> muddied the water now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>>>>>> something new to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors
>>>>>>>>>>>> have...and of course there's more than one in 2007 and
>>>>>>>>>>>> beyond.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>>>>>>>>>>> that would be competitive?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> competition  between VS and PB. In order to compete, you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to be in the same race  and PB is not and has not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> been since .Net was created over 6 years ago.  Although
>>>>>>>>>>>> they both roughly allow you to create applications, they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> each  allow you to go about the process in completely
>>>>>>>>>>>>> different ways. Define what competition means to Sybase?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because from where I'm sitting I  see..1) More .Net
>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like
>>>>>>>>>>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB
>>>>>>>>>>>>> IDE. All of those  kinda say VS and MS have won. How can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you say you want to compete with  something that will
>>>>>>>>>>>> soon be at the core of your IDE? >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side
>>>>>>>>>>>>> comparison will  confirm that PB is no where close. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>> way the die-hards make it "seem"  close is by lopping
>>>>>>>>>>>>> off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not
>>>>>>>>>>>> important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we normally  disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are general purpose programming  tools..PB is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> client/server programming tool. I feel that until that
>>>>>>>>>>>> changes, there is no way to do a comparison. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. If DW.Net had  release with 1) a fully managed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> implementation and 2) ADO.Net support -  they might have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> competitive  product when Telerik RAD controls are being
>>>>>>>>>>>>> used by DWs when they go to a  web form? Telerik is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is
>>>>>>>>>>>> that all about? >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition
>>>>>>>>>>>>> point is...I would  check the differences between what
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sybase Engineering has done vs. the  2500+ folks on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at
>>>>>>>>>>>> beating that many heads with that many man hours by
>>>>>>>>>>>> finding.. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>>>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to follow and stay  close behind. Its the best option
>>>>>>>>>>>>> right now until maybe a better option  presents itself
>>>>>>>>>>>> down the road. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Troy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to
>>>>>>>>>>>> comment on how many >> times...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to
>>>>>>>>>>>> the user: >> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.),
>>>>>>>>>>>> Database operability AND >> Reporting! Well, I see als
>>>>>>>>>>>> well as many other PB users that some of >> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But
>>>>>>>>>>>> this >> seems not to be the main issue here to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> discussed. Fact is, and I've >> looked around to may other
>>>>>>>>>>>> Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool >> (I did not
>>>>>>>>>>>> find any) which is comparable RAD..." >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>>>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive
>>>>>>>>>>>> differentiator?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> 
>

Oh ya...Im not saying that PB doesnt allow them. My only point there is that PB is converting the code to use NEW because C# demands it. If we want to move towards using .Net languages within PB, then the syntax needs to change so that it matches up. The last thing we need is the ability to use "some" C# or have it diluted in some way so that it fits the PB world. 

Troy

Jim O'Neil [Sybase] wrote:
> I'm with you on most of this, but you lost me on the CREATE syntax....
> CREATE vs. new... potato/potatoh....  Within our .NET code blocks
> (yes, not my favorite either) we do allow for parameterized
> constructors, so the only difference is the keyword CREATE versus new.
> Given the vast amount of code samples out there though, I wouldn't be
> averse to adding 'new' as a synoynm for CREATE.  I don't see the
> CREATE/new issue really being all that damning, now some of the other
> stuff... <g>
> 
> 
> On 20 Dec 2007 05:57:51 -0800, Troy <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> I like the idea but no solution should "limit" anything. Thats what got us here in the first place. Secondly, no where near all possible C# code will convert to Powerscript. Those languages are vastly different. Why would we want to convert it in only to turn around and convert back out to C# for the build? I also think parsing and syntax checking would be a nightmare as seen in another thread..folks want more intellisense like features in the IDE.
>>
>> What it sounds like is that we are getting close to some sort of directive approach like ASP.NEt uses to specify the language used. If Sybase follows through with purely managed versions of their libraries, then allowing you to make a language choice would be and IDE change only, right? But then again, I haven't heard for sure if the managed versions of the libraries they are creating are meant for consumption outside of PB.
>>
>> Although I see where Dean is coming from, allowing multiple language use at the event level would constitute another form of spaghetti code. Even on the VS side where we have language choices, we draw the boundary at the project level partly because we have to but mainly because we should. By allowing folks to go in and out of languages we would inadvertently hamper productivity when people got there CREATES and NEW mixed up.
>>
>> Lastly, for the .Net targets, everything should use NEW and not the legacy OLE(?) CREATE syntax. My reasoning is simple. The .Net framework objects have REAL constructors and most of them are overloaded many times over. To get the most of the .Net framework, developers need to learn it and using legacy syntax that gets converted to proper syntax is not learning it. To see that CREATE statement near a fully qualified .Net object is a shining example of how "off" the .Net integration to this point has been.
>>
>>
>> Troy

Jim => Thank you that "tid bit"!  :-)

Jeff => Code your brains out <lol>!


"Jim O'Neil [Sybase]" <joneil@sybase.com> wrote in message 
news:pralm31vf31gscg051s4l2aq9eu0ean3ou@4ax.com...
> Before that goes into the rumor mill....
>
> Win32 DEPLOYMENT WILL BE PART OF POWERBUILDER 12.
>
> On 20 Dec 2007 09:40:51 -0800, "Chris Pollach"
> <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Cool ... go for it!
>>
>>FWIW: Just remember that you might have to rewrite the applications in PB 
>>12
>>if they decide to go full .Net and no more Win32.
>>
>>
>>
>>"jeff" <jhersey at allnorth dottt com> wrote in message
>>news:476aa475$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>
>>> fine by me, i have 3 new apps already lines up for next year ... 2 must 
>>> be
>>> down in PB ... so, if I can get a solid framework with these additional
>>> controls, it will be a easy sell to do all 3 in PB ... thought I had to
>>> move away from PB...
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>> "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote in message
>>> news:476aa1bc$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, this would only help any new applications - not the 1K's
>>>> of existing ones out there. :-(
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "jeff" <jhersey at allnorth dottt com> wrote in message
>>>> news:476a951e$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>i see now that I have downloaded it ...
>>>>>
>>>>> very nice ... good job  ... and thank you!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:476a93a3$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>> There is a nicer tab control at
>>>>>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com (see attached image)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This weekend I'm going to see what I can do to make it work with
>>>>>> Winforms.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brad
>>>>>>
>>>>>> jeff wrote:
>>>>>>> the felix options does not work with winform's either... problems 
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> setparent or something.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the one thing the felix suite has is a nicer tab control ... this is
>>>>>>> essentially what I am after.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any suggestions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:476a8fd1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>>> Yeah, unfortunately. I'm going to look at this a little more
>>>>>>>> seriously to
>>>>>>>> see if there is a workaround.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I essentially have to eliminate the PBNI dependency. If anyone has
>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>> idea's, please let me know.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Brad
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Chris Pollach wrote:
>>>>>>>>>  Unfortunately, I have found that these do not work or behave
>>>>>>>>> improperly
>>>>>>>>> when compiled into a Winform application.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:476a7d1b$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>>>>> OR use this
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> OR
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> kodigo.sourceforge.net
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> jeff wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> ... nice!!!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ... Sybase, hire this guy or buy the CONTROL(s) ...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> this is something I would pay extra for in my licence !!!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <dwx> wrote in message 
>>>>>>>>>>> news:4769ed04.3286.1681692777@sybase.com...
>>>>>>>>>>>> You could start by adding something like this natively to PB
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.felix.fr/produits/flxsuite/flxsuite.cfm
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> no brainer.  Bring the interface of PB apps to the year
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2000.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> A good source control would be great as well
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will soon be at  >> the core of your IDE?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> By adding value.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only
>>>>>>>>>>>>> meant as one example to jog discussion, but has arguably
>>>>>>>>>>>>> muddied the water now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> something new to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have...and of course there's more than one in 2007 and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> beyond.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that would be competitive?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> competition  between VS and PB. In order to compete, you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to be in the same race  and PB is not and has not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been since .Net was created over 6 years ago.  Although
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they both roughly allow you to create applications, they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each  allow you to go about the process in completely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different ways. Define what competition means to Sybase?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because from where I'm sitting I  see..1) More .Net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like
>>>>>>>>>>>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IDE. All of those  kinda say VS and MS have won. How can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you say you want to compete with  something that will
>>>>>>>>>>>>> soon be at the core of your IDE? >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comparison will  confirm that PB is no where close. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way the die-hards make it "seem"  close is by lopping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we normally  disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are general purpose programming  tools..PB is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> client/server programming tool. I feel that until that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> changes, there is no way to do a comparison. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. If DW.Net had  release with 1) a fully managed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> implementation and 2) ADO.Net support -  they might have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> competitive  product when Telerik RAD controls are being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used by DWs when they go to a  web form? Telerik is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that all about? >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point is...I would  check the differences between what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sybase Engineering has done vs. the  2500+ folks on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> beating that many heads with that many man hours by
>>>>>>>>>>>>> finding.. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>>>>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to follow and stay  close behind. Its the best option
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right now until maybe a better option  presents itself
>>>>>>>>>>>>> down the road. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Troy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> comment on how many >> times...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the user: >> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.),
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Database operability AND >> Reporting! Well, I see als
>>>>>>>>>>>>> well as many other PB users that some of >> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >> seems not to be the main issue here to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussed. Fact is, and I've >> looked around to may other
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool >> (I did not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> find any) which is comparable RAD..." >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>>>>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive
>>>>>>>>>>>>> differentiator?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> 

In thinking about what does PB have that makes it more productive than c#. 
One is easy access to SQL.

For example I can wite:

long count = 0
string myMax
select count(*), max( some_fld )  into :count, :myMax from mytable using 
SQLCA ;

(very simple, very straight forward, also there is some checking during 
translation that is helpful )

I also like the SQL error code being returned as part of the connection 
object, rather than generating an exception, however,
I can see where the argument could be made in both directions.

The best solution would be to have PowerScipt become a super-set of c# but 
still support 100% c# code without changes.

integer datatype should be 32 bits wide

"...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool.
......there is NO OTHER tool
 (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."

"Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already does."

Let's see what we have:
* Powerful database related features
* Datawindow
* PFC, great business application framework
* PowerBuilder Extended Attributes

To make it Power RAD is a
+++Code Generation engine with highly customizable template+++
* The engine that will read the database's data model
* store it at "enhanced" PowerBuilder Extended Attributes, which will store
Transactional pattern also like master detail, etc
* then from there can generate a complete application (application,
nonvisual objects, datawindow, windows, reports ) based on pfc or other
"compatible framework" and highly customizable templates
* can be re-generate to use new UI, to add new data model logic, to create
new objects to be deployed at EAServer

The Powerbuilder developer job is just:
* design good and flexible data model
* refine PFC or other frameworks
* refine customizable templates
* tune up some that can't be done by code generation engine, or specific
changes

Since it's very difficult to cater for very diverse application design, it
will be great if Sybase can provide:
* easier infrastructure tools,like easier ORCA api (?), 'enhanced' PB
Extended Attributes, etc
* design framework and guidelines
* standard implementation with PFC

Sorry, if I miss something or interpret something incorrectly.

sugi

"John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message
news:4762b160$1@forums-1-dub...
> Blah blah blah
>
> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how many
> times...
>
> The DataWindow.
>
> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>
> This from one of our colleagues
> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>
> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
> Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
> the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
> seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and I've
> looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool
> (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
>
> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
> and thanks in advance for your investment of
> time/effort to respond...
>
> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
> does PowerBuilder still have
> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>
> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>
> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>
> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>
> Maybe its a single feature.
> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already does.
>
> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
> to the litmus test...
> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?
> --
> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>
>
>

jeff:

Would it be fair to say that you put GUI enhancement
at the top of your priority list for PowerBuilder improvements?

-- 
John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist


"jeff" <jhersey at allnorth dottt com> wrote in message 
news:476aa475$1@forums-1-dub...
>
> fine by me, i have 3 new apps already lines up for next year ... 2 must be 
> down in PB ... so, if I can get a solid framework with these additional 
> controls, it will be a easy sell to do all 3 in PB ... thought I had to 
> move away from PB...
>
> Jeff
>
>
> "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote in message 
> news:476aa1bc$1@forums-1-dub...
>>
>> Unfortunately, this would only help any new applications - not the 1K's 
>> of existing ones out there. :-(
>>
>>
>> "jeff" <jhersey at allnorth dottt com> wrote in message 
>> news:476a951e$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>i see now that I have downloaded it ...
>>>
>>> very nice ... good job  ... and thank you!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message 
>>> news:476a93a3$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>> There is a nicer tab control at
>>>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com (see attached image)
>>>>
>>>> This weekend I'm going to see what I can do to make it work with 
>>>> Winforms.
>>>>
>>>> Brad
>>>>
>>>> jeff wrote:
>>>>> the felix options does not work with winform's either... problems with
>>>>> setparent or something.
>>>>>
>>>>> the one thing the felix suite has is a nicer tab control ... this is
>>>>> essentially what I am after.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any suggestions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:476a8fd1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>> Yeah, unfortunately. I'm going to look at this a little more 
>>>>>> seriously to
>>>>>> see if there is a workaround.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I essentially have to eliminate the PBNI dependency. If anyone has 
>>>>>> any
>>>>>> idea's, please let me know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brad
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chris Pollach wrote:
>>>>>>>  Unfortunately, I have found that these do not work or behave 
>>>>>>> improperly
>>>>>>> when compiled into a Winform application.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:476a7d1b$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>>> OR use this
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OR
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> kodigo.sourceforge.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> jeff wrote:
>>>>>>>>> ... nice!!!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ... Sybase, hire this guy or buy the CONTROL(s) ...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> this is something I would pay extra for in my licence !!!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <dwx> wrote in message news:4769ed04.3286.1681692777@sybase.com...
>>>>>>>>>> You could start by adding something like this natively to PB
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.felix.fr/produits/flxsuite/flxsuite.cfm
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> no brainer.  Bring the interface of PB apps to the year
>>>>>>>>>> 2000.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A good source control would be great as well
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that
>>>>>>>>>>> will soon be at  >> the core of your IDE?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> By adding value.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only
>>>>>>>>>>> meant as one example to jog discussion, but has arguably
>>>>>>>>>>> muddied the water now.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>>>>> something new to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors
>>>>>>>>>>> have...and of course there's more than one in 2007 and
>>>>>>>>>>> beyond.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>>>>>>>>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>>>>>>>>>> that would be competitive?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to
>>>>>>>>>>>> competition  between VS and PB. In order to compete, you
>>>>>>>>>>>> have to be in the same race  and PB is not and has not
>>>>>>>>>>>> been since .Net was created over 6 years ago.  Although
>>>>>>>>>>> they both roughly allow you to create applications, they
>>>>>>>>>>>> each  allow you to go about the process in completely
>>>>>>>>>>>> different ways. Define what competition means to Sybase?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Because from where I'm sitting I  see..1) More .Net
>>>>>>>>>>>> framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like
>>>>>>>>>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB
>>>>>>>>>>>> IDE. All of those  kinda say VS and MS have won. How can
>>>>>>>>>>>> you say you want to compete with  something that will
>>>>>>>>>>> soon be at the core of your IDE? >
>>>>>>>>>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side
>>>>>>>>>>>> comparison will  confirm that PB is no where close. The
>>>>>>>>>>>> way the die-hards make it "seem"  close is by lopping
>>>>>>>>>>>> off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not
>>>>>>>>>>> important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much
>>>>>>>>>>>> we normally  disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net)
>>>>>>>>>>>> are general purpose programming  tools..PB is a
>>>>>>>>>>>> client/server programming tool. I feel that until that
>>>>>>>>>>> changes, there is no way to do a comparison. >
>>>>>>>>>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew
>>>>>>>>>>>> it. If DW.Net had  release with 1) a fully managed
>>>>>>>>>>>> implementation and 2) ADO.Net support -  they might have
>>>>>>>>>>>> had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the
>>>>>>>>>>> world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a
>>>>>>>>>>>> competitive  product when Telerik RAD controls are being
>>>>>>>>>>>> used by DWs when they go to a  web form? Telerik is a
>>>>>>>>>>>> direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is
>>>>>>>>>>> that all about? >
>>>>>>>>>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition
>>>>>>>>>>>> point is...I would  check the differences between what
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sybase Engineering has done vs. the  2500+ folks on the
>>>>>>>>>>>> MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at
>>>>>>>>>>> beating that many heads with that many man hours by
>>>>>>>>>>> finding.. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >
>>>>>>>>>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how
>>>>>>>>>>>> to follow and stay  close behind. Its the best option
>>>>>>>>>>>> right now until maybe a better option  presents itself
>>>>>>>>>>> down the road. >
>>>>>>>>>>>> Troy
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to
>>>>>>>>>>> comment on how many >> times...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>>>>>>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to
>>>>>>>>>>> the user: >> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.),
>>>>>>>>>>> Database operability AND >> Reporting! Well, I see als
>>>>>>>>>>> well as many other PB users that some of >> the
>>>>>>>>>>> implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But
>>>>>>>>>>> this >> seems not to be the main issue here to be
>>>>>>>>>>> discussed. Fact is, and I've >> looked around to may other
>>>>>>>>>>> Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool >> (I did not
>>>>>>>>>>> find any) which is comparable RAD..." >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>>>>>>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive
>>>>>>>>>>> differentiator?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> 

>>...you would have more success if you clearly and explicitly target
the kinds of developers and applications for whom the tool is a good 
fit...<<

Thanks Mark.
Just for the record what do you feel are PowerBuilder's strengths
here at the end of 2007?
Where/how would you like to see our efforts consolidated?
-- 
John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist


"Mark Maslow" <mark.maslow@sierraclub.org> wrote in message 
news:4769499f@forums-1-dub...
> "John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
> news:47683e75$1@forums-1-dub...
>> Now pardon the pompous Knute Rockne tone, but we
>> still enjoy running, competing, and we still
>> enjoy seeing PowerBuilder improve its ability
>> to serve our customers.
>>
>
> The question that I wonder about is, who are you folks competing against?
>
> According to the PB 11.1 Data Sheet 
> http://www.sybase.com/detail?id=1051987
>
> "PowerBuilder enables developers to focus on the task at hand without 
> incurring a significant cost or learning curve to understand new 
> technologies."
>
> I consider it an on-going part of my job as well as my ability to remain 
> viable in my profession to learn, understand, and evaluate new 
> technologies, and to incorporate them when and where appropriate.  I would 
> not have been able to accomplish what I have without the ability and 
> desire to continuously learn about new technologies and different 
> approaches to solving technical issues.
>
> It would appear that the product is not targeting developers such as 
> myself. That's OK - no tool can be all things to all people.  But I think 
> that rather than saying, as your Data Sheet does, that "PB 11.1 has 
> something for everyone", you would have more success if you clearly and 
> explicitly target the kinds of developers and applications for whom the 
> tool is a good fit, and don't try to compete head to head with more 
> general purpose tools.
>
> Filemaker, for instance, is quite clear about who they are targeting. 
> They say about their product:
>
> "It's about getting access to what you need, when you need it - without 
> requiring computer-programming skills."
>
> I don't think PB is targeting the same market, but I guess it's not really 
> clear to me just what the real target market is.
>
> 

Hi John;

    FWIW: That would certainly be a top 3 for most of my Ottawa Sybase User 
Group members that develop in PB. I can not tell you how many times I have 
heard the question: "Why can't PB applications look like MS-Office". That is 
also what IT directors, End Users, Application Managers / Team leaders ask 
PB developers all the time. I would say that today - considering that 99% of 
Canadian Federal government departments are based on MS-Windows and use 
MS-Office - that PB really needs to assist  developers to "EASILY" be able 
to replicate this Look and Feel. This is one of the prime criteria that 
their applications are now being judged against (IMHO).

-- 
Regards ... Chris
http://chrispollach.pbdjmagazine.com
 ,\|/,
(0 0)
-(_)-


"John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
news:476bea45@forums-1-dub...
> jeff:
>
> Would it be fair to say that you put GUI enhancement
> at the top of your priority list for PowerBuilder improvements?
>
> -- 
> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>
>
> "jeff" <jhersey at allnorth dottt com> wrote in message 
> news:476aa475$1@forums-1-dub...
>>
>> fine by me, i have 3 new apps already lines up for next year ... 2 must 
>> be down in PB ... so, if I can get a solid framework with these 
>> additional controls, it will be a easy sell to do all 3 in PB ... thought 
>> I had to move away from PB...
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote in message 
>> news:476aa1bc$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, this would only help any new applications - not the 1K's 
>>> of existing ones out there. :-(
>>>
>>>
>>> "jeff" <jhersey at allnorth dottt com> wrote in message 
>>> news:476a951e$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>i see now that I have downloaded it ...
>>>>
>>>> very nice ... good job  ... and thank you!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message 
>>>> news:476a93a3$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>> There is a nicer tab control at
>>>>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com (see attached image)
>>>>>
>>>>> This weekend I'm going to see what I can do to make it work with 
>>>>> Winforms.
>>>>>
>>>>> Brad
>>>>>
>>>>> jeff wrote:
>>>>>> the felix options does not work with winform's either... problems 
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> setparent or something.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the one thing the felix suite has is a nicer tab control ... this is
>>>>>> essentially what I am after.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any suggestions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:476a8fd1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>> Yeah, unfortunately. I'm going to look at this a little more 
>>>>>>> seriously to
>>>>>>> see if there is a workaround.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I essentially have to eliminate the PBNI dependency. If anyone has 
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>> idea's, please let me know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brad
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Chris Pollach wrote:
>>>>>>>>  Unfortunately, I have found that these do not work or behave 
>>>>>>>> improperly
>>>>>>>> when compiled into a Winform application.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:476a7d1b$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>>>> OR use this
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OR
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> kodigo.sourceforge.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> jeff wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> ... nice!!!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ... Sybase, hire this guy or buy the CONTROL(s) ...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> this is something I would pay extra for in my licence !!!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <dwx> wrote in message 
>>>>>>>>>> news:4769ed04.3286.1681692777@sybase.com...
>>>>>>>>>>> You could start by adding something like this natively to PB
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.felix.fr/produits/flxsuite/flxsuite.cfm
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> no brainer.  Bring the interface of PB apps to the year
>>>>>>>>>>> 2000.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A good source control would be great as well
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that
>>>>>>>>>>>> will soon be at  >> the core of your IDE?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> By adding value.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only
>>>>>>>>>>>> meant as one example to jog discussion, but has arguably
>>>>>>>>>>>> muddied the water now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>>>>>> something new to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors
>>>>>>>>>>>> have...and of course there's more than one in 2007 and
>>>>>>>>>>>> beyond.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>>>>>>>>>>> that would be competitive?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> competition  between VS and PB. In order to compete, you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to be in the same race  and PB is not and has not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> been since .Net was created over 6 years ago.  Although
>>>>>>>>>>>> they both roughly allow you to create applications, they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> each  allow you to go about the process in completely
>>>>>>>>>>>>> different ways. Define what competition means to Sybase?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because from where I'm sitting I  see..1) More .Net
>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like
>>>>>>>>>>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB
>>>>>>>>>>>>> IDE. All of those  kinda say VS and MS have won. How can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you say you want to compete with  something that will
>>>>>>>>>>>> soon be at the core of your IDE? >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side
>>>>>>>>>>>>> comparison will  confirm that PB is no where close. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>> way the die-hards make it "seem"  close is by lopping
>>>>>>>>>>>>> off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not
>>>>>>>>>>>> important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we normally  disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are general purpose programming  tools..PB is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> client/server programming tool. I feel that until that
>>>>>>>>>>>> changes, there is no way to do a comparison. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. If DW.Net had  release with 1) a fully managed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> implementation and 2) ADO.Net support -  they might have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> competitive  product when Telerik RAD controls are being
>>>>>>>>>>>>> used by DWs when they go to a  web form? Telerik is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is
>>>>>>>>>>>> that all about? >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition
>>>>>>>>>>>>> point is...I would  check the differences between what
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sybase Engineering has done vs. the  2500+ folks on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at
>>>>>>>>>>>> beating that many heads with that many man hours by
>>>>>>>>>>>> finding.. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>>>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to follow and stay  close behind. Its the best option
>>>>>>>>>>>>> right now until maybe a better option  presents itself
>>>>>>>>>>>> down the road. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Troy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to
>>>>>>>>>>>> comment on how many >> times...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to
>>>>>>>>>>>> the user: >> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.),
>>>>>>>>>>>> Database operability AND >> Reporting! Well, I see als
>>>>>>>>>>>> well as many other PB users that some of >> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But
>>>>>>>>>>>> this >> seems not to be the main issue here to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> discussed. Fact is, and I've >> looked around to may other
>>>>>>>>>>>> Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool >> (I did not
>>>>>>>>>>>> find any) which is comparable RAD..." >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>>>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive
>>>>>>>>>>>> differentiator?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> 

Yes. What would also be nice is to have a way to create our own GUI 
controls with the use of built in PB functions (this will let us make 
the application as nice as our imaginations will let us).

This can be accomplished simply by giving us 3 enhancements: Gradient 
fill on all controls, true transparency on images and static text 
controls and the ability to draw shapes (with gradient fill).

John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
> jeff:
> 
> Would it be fair to say that you put GUI enhancement
> at the top of your priority list for PowerBuilder improvements?
> 

yes - in PB, GUI enhancements is number 1 ... in DW.Net load datawindow from 
collection of objects number 1.

"John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
news:476bea45@forums-1-dub...
> jeff:
>
> Would it be fair to say that you put GUI enhancement
> at the top of your priority list for PowerBuilder improvements?
>
> -- 
> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>
>
> "jeff" <jhersey at allnorth dottt com> wrote in message 
> news:476aa475$1@forums-1-dub...
>>
>> fine by me, i have 3 new apps already lines up for next year ... 2 must 
>> be down in PB ... so, if I can get a solid framework with these 
>> additional controls, it will be a easy sell to do all 3 in PB ... thought 
>> I had to move away from PB...
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> "Chris Pollach" <cpollach@travel-net.com> wrote in message 
>> news:476aa1bc$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, this would only help any new applications - not the 1K's 
>>> of existing ones out there. :-(
>>>
>>>
>>> "jeff" <jhersey at allnorth dottt com> wrote in message 
>>> news:476a951e$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>i see now that I have downloaded it ...
>>>>
>>>> very nice ... good job  ... and thank you!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message 
>>>> news:476a93a3$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>> There is a nicer tab control at
>>>>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com (see attached image)
>>>>>
>>>>> This weekend I'm going to see what I can do to make it work with 
>>>>> Winforms.
>>>>>
>>>>> Brad
>>>>>
>>>>> jeff wrote:
>>>>>> the felix options does not work with winform's either... problems 
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> setparent or something.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the one thing the felix suite has is a nicer tab control ... this is
>>>>>> essentially what I am after.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any suggestions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:476a8fd1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>> Yeah, unfortunately. I'm going to look at this a little more 
>>>>>>> seriously to
>>>>>>> see if there is a workaround.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I essentially have to eliminate the PBNI dependency. If anyone has 
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>> idea's, please let me know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brad
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Chris Pollach wrote:
>>>>>>>>  Unfortunately, I have found that these do not work or behave 
>>>>>>>> improperly
>>>>>>>> when compiled into a Winform application.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Brad Wery[TeamSybase]" <bradweryatgmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:476a7d1b$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>>>> OR use this
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> advanced-gui-development.codexchange.sybase.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OR
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> kodigo.sourceforge.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> jeff wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> ... nice!!!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ... Sybase, hire this guy or buy the CONTROL(s) ...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> this is something I would pay extra for in my licence !!!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <dwx> wrote in message 
>>>>>>>>>> news:4769ed04.3286.1681692777@sybase.com...
>>>>>>>>>>> You could start by adding something like this natively to PB
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.felix.fr/produits/flxsuite/flxsuite.cfm
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> no brainer.  Bring the interface of PB apps to the year
>>>>>>>>>>> 2000.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A good source control would be great as well
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How can you say you want to compete with something that
>>>>>>>>>>>> will soon be at  >> the core of your IDE?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> By adding value.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only
>>>>>>>>>>>> meant as one example to jog discussion, but has arguably
>>>>>>>>>>>> muddied the water now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>>>>>> something new to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors
>>>>>>>>>>>> have...and of course there's more than one in 2007 and
>>>>>>>>>>>> beyond.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>>>>>>>>>>> that would be competitive?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Troy" <troy-no-spam@onesplace.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:4762c8b1$1@forums-1-dub...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll start with this..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's the second time I have seen you post relating to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> competition  between VS and PB. In order to compete, you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to be in the same race  and PB is not and has not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> been since .Net was created over 6 years ago.  Although
>>>>>>>>>>>> they both roughly allow you to create applications, they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> each  allow you to go about the process in completely
>>>>>>>>>>>>> different ways. Define what competition means to Sybase?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because from where I'm sitting I  see..1) More .Net
>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework support coming 2)users requesting VS like
>>>>>>>>>>>> features 3) Sybase about to use VS shell to redo the PB
>>>>>>>>>>>>> IDE. All of those  kinda say VS and MS have won. How can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you say you want to compete with  something that will
>>>>>>>>>>>> soon be at the core of your IDE? >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A simple download of the feature sets and a side by side
>>>>>>>>>>>>> comparison will  confirm that PB is no where close. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>> way the die-hards make it "seem"  close is by lopping
>>>>>>>>>>>>> off features of VS and .Net that they feel are not
>>>>>>>>>>>> important to them. Phillip Salgannik, no matter how much
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we normally  disagree, stated it clearly..VS (and .Net)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are general purpose programming  tools..PB is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> client/server programming tool. I feel that until that
>>>>>>>>>>>> changes, there is no way to do a comparison. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the DW.Net + VS. The shot was there but Sybase blew
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. If DW.Net had  release with 1) a fully managed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> implementation and 2) ADO.Net support -  they might have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> had a shot at the ComponentOne and Infragistics of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> world. But once again, how do you exactly say you have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> competitive  product when Telerik RAD controls are being
>>>>>>>>>>>>> used by DWs when they go to a  web form? Telerik is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> direct competitor of DW.Net and the others. What is
>>>>>>>>>>>> that all about? >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you really want to examine where the competition
>>>>>>>>>>>>> point is...I would  check the differences between what
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sybase Engineering has done vs. the  2500+ folks on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> MS Dev Div team. To think that Sybase has any shot at
>>>>>>>>>>>> beating that many heads with that many man hours by
>>>>>>>>>>>> finding.. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>>>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is laughable. I suggest that Sybase (with PB) learn how
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to follow and stay  close behind. Its the best option
>>>>>>>>>>>>> right now until maybe a better option  presents itself
>>>>>>>>>>>> down the road. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Troy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blah blah blah
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to
>>>>>>>>>>>> comment on how many >> times...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The DataWindow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This from one of our colleagues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to
>>>>>>>>>>>> the user: >> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.),
>>>>>>>>>>>> Database operability AND >> Reporting! Well, I see als
>>>>>>>>>>>> well as many other PB users that some of >> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But
>>>>>>>>>>>> this >> seems not to be the main issue here to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> discussed. Fact is, and I've >> looked around to may other
>>>>>>>>>>>> Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool >> (I did not
>>>>>>>>>>>> find any) which is comparable RAD..." >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time/effort to respond...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does PowerBuilder still have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a single feature.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something
>>>>>>>>>>>> PowerBuilder already does. >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the litmus test...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive
>>>>>>>>>>>> differentiator?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> 

That has been the number one wish for most developers for many years. Prior 
to 10.5 not much of anything has been done to change how PB apps look since 
PB5.

Here are some suggestions:

DataWindow:

Graphs need to support more than just the basic 16 colors, otherwise they 
will continue to look like something straight out of Windows 3.1. We should 
be able to specify the colors from the data and have it use gradients to 
give them a nice smoothed edge appearance. Take a look at this website for 
an example http://www.fusioncharts.com.

Need more than just the basic square and circle graphic shapes. Should be 
able to tie the shape size/position properties to data columns.

A really nice calendar style, similar to the calendar in Outlook for setting 
meetings. Or at least improve the graphic elements enough to make it easy to 
create your own.

Auto-width for grid datawindows.

Add events that occur when certain visual things happen, resize grid column 
width for example.

Other non-DataWindow:

A native 'canvas' control like the one used by the Kodigo framework and Brad 
Wery's AdvancedGUI example. Basically a visual control that allows us to use 
GDI+ commands to easily draw whatever we want without the flicker associated 
with the existing custom visual user object.

Roland,

We missed the outlook calendar too, but we created it ourselves in a 
datawindow.
It looks great, drag&drop, resize, multiple days etc, it costs time, but can 
be realized.

Regards,

Michael Cornelissen
Dicon
The Netherlands

"Roland Smith [TeamSybase]" <rsmith_at_trusthss_dot_com> schreef in bericht 
news:47725a31$1@forums-1-dub...
> That has been the number one wish for most developers for many years. 
> Prior
> to 10.5 not much of anything has been done to change how PB apps look 
> since
> PB5.
>
> Here are some suggestions:
>
> DataWindow:
>
> Graphs need to support more than just the basic 16 colors, otherwise they
> will continue to look like something straight out of Windows 3.1. We 
> should
> be able to specify the colors from the data and have it use gradients to
> give them a nice smoothed edge appearance. Take a look at this website for
> an example http://www.fusioncharts.com.
>
> Need more than just the basic square and circle graphic shapes. Should be
> able to tie the shape size/position properties to data columns.
>
> A really nice calendar style, similar to the calendar in Outlook for 
> setting
> meetings. Or at least improve the graphic elements enough to make it easy 
> to
> create your own.
>
> Auto-width for grid datawindows.
>
> Add events that occur when certain visual things happen, resize grid 
> column
> width for example.
>
> Other non-DataWindow:
>
> A native 'canvas' control like the one used by the Kodigo framework and 
> Brad
> Wery's AdvancedGUI example. Basically a visual control that allows us to 
> use
> GDI+ commands to easily draw whatever we want without the flicker 
> associated
> with the existing custom visual user object.
>
>
> 


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end

Very nice!

"Michiel Cornelissen" <mcornelissen@dicon.nl> wrote in message 
news:4772e4bc@forums-1-dub...
> Roland,
>
> We missed the outlook calendar too, but we created it ourselves in a 
> datawindow.
> It looks great, drag&drop, resize, multiple days etc, it costs time, but 
> can be realized.
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael Cornelissen
> Dicon
> The Netherlands
>
> "Roland Smith [TeamSybase]" <rsmith_at_trusthss_dot_com> schreef in 
> bericht news:47725a31$1@forums-1-dub...
>> That has been the number one wish for most developers for many years. 
>> Prior
>> to 10.5 not much of anything has been done to change how PB apps look 
>> since
>> PB5.
>>
>> Here are some suggestions:
>>
>> DataWindow:
>>
>> Graphs need to support more than just the basic 16 colors, otherwise they
>> will continue to look like something straight out of Windows 3.1. We 
>> should
>> be able to specify the colors from the data and have it use gradients to
>> give them a nice smoothed edge appearance. Take a look at this website 
>> for
>> an example http://www.fusioncharts.com.
>>
>> Need more than just the basic square and circle graphic shapes. Should be
>> able to tie the shape size/position properties to data columns.
>>
>> A really nice calendar style, similar to the calendar in Outlook for 
>> setting
>> meetings. Or at least improve the graphic elements enough to make it easy 
>> to
>> create your own.
>>
>> Auto-width for grid datawindows.
>>
>> Add events that occur when certain visual things happen, resize grid 
>> column
>> width for example.
>>
>> Other non-DataWindow:
>>
>> A native 'canvas' control like the one used by the Kodigo framework and 
>> Brad
>> Wery's AdvancedGUI example. Basically a visual control that allows us to 
>> use
>> GDI+ commands to easily draw whatever we want without the flicker 
>> associated
>> with the existing custom visual user object.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> 

It is!!  It should be posted into the GUI Olympics or Kodigo.
"Roland Smith [TeamSybase]" <rsmith_at_trusthss_dot_com> wrote in message 
news:4773a4c5$1@forums-1-dub...
> Very nice!
>
> "Michiel Cornelissen" <mcornelissen@dicon.nl> wrote in message 
> news:4772e4bc@forums-1-dub...
>> Roland,
>>
>> We missed the outlook calendar too, but we created it ourselves in a 
>> datawindow.
>> It looks great, drag&drop, resize, multiple days etc, it costs time, but 
>> can be realized.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Michael Cornelissen
>> Dicon
>> The Netherlands
>>
>> "Roland Smith [TeamSybase]" <rsmith_at_trusthss_dot_com> schreef in 
>> bericht news:47725a31$1@forums-1-dub...
>>> That has been the number one wish for most developers for many years. 
>>> Prior
>>> to 10.5 not much of anything has been done to change how PB apps look 
>>> since
>>> PB5.
>>>
>>> Here are some suggestions:
>>>
>>> DataWindow:
>>>
>>> Graphs need to support more than just the basic 16 colors, otherwise 
>>> they
>>> will continue to look like something straight out of Windows 3.1. We 
>>> should
>>> be able to specify the colors from the data and have it use gradients to
>>> give them a nice smoothed edge appearance. Take a look at this website 
>>> for
>>> an example http://www.fusioncharts.com.
>>>
>>> Need more than just the basic square and circle graphic shapes. Should 
>>> be
>>> able to tie the shape size/position properties to data columns.
>>>
>>> A really nice calendar style, similar to the calendar in Outlook for 
>>> setting
>>> meetings. Or at least improve the graphic elements enough to make it 
>>> easy to
>>> create your own.
>>>
>>> Auto-width for grid datawindows.
>>>
>>> Add events that occur when certain visual things happen, resize grid 
>>> column
>>> width for example.
>>>
>>> Other non-DataWindow:
>>>
>>> A native 'canvas' control like the one used by the Kodigo framework and 
>>> Brad
>>> Wery's AdvancedGUI example. Basically a visual control that allows us to 
>>> use
>>> GDI+ commands to easily draw whatever we want without the flicker 
>>> associated
>>> with the existing custom visual user object.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> 

> So as a client/server development tool.
> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
> that would be competitive?

Client/Server? Not so good for me ant more. I want more multi-tier ability. 
The DW goes a bit off when not connected. VS is essentially C/S unless a 3rd 
party product is thrown into the mix. I have to roll my own. I use WCF for 
inter tier communication but need a way to get insert/update/deletes from 
one place to another using as little bandwidth (and code) as possible. 

Hi John

I was wondering if there's any chance that while making this DW revolution,
we'll finally get a pivot DW (or transposed if you prefer)?

I think it's a forgotten feature that'd be welcomed by many of us and our
clients.

Regards


On 14 Dec 2007 08:37:52 -0800,
 in sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
John Strano[Sybase] <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote: 
>Blah blah blah
>
>You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how many
>times...
>
>The DataWindow.
>
>....but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>
>This from one of our colleagues
>(and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>
>"...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
>Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
>Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
>the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
>seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and I've
>looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool
>(I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
>
>So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>and thanks in advance for your investment of
>time/effort to respond...
>
>*** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>does PowerBuilder still have
>as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>
>Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>
>*** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>
>Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>
>Maybe its a single feature.
>Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already does.
>
>There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>to the litmus test...
>....is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?
>-- 
>John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>
>
>

John,


1) What true competitive differentiators does PowerBuilder still have as 
2007 draws to a close?

The differences technically are getting fewer and fewer, this is true.  MS 
will always be "ahead" technologically, but they are also spending far more 
money to get there.  Sybase cannot compete with that, and should not try. 
My suggestion is to have two lists of recent MS enhancements:  technological 
advances and eye candy.  Prioritize each list.  Set the goal that the top 3 
items on each list will never be more than 6 months away from release.  Let 
MS do all the research and Sybase simply implements the best of their 
creations.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder that would be a true 
competitive differentiator?

PB is a business language.  Anything that makes an office run smoother OR 
allows a programmer to complete a job quicker should be the focus.

My suggestions tend to favor the C/S platform.  Brainstorming:
1.  Many offices want some type of automation that involves Word, Acrobat, 
Excel, OpenOffice, Outlook and/or Notes.  Integrate the top 5-10 business 
applications into PowerBuilder if the client has them installed.  Make 
PowerBuilder THE go-to application for office automation.  (Make PB like the 
home theatre unit that controls the TV, stereo, DVD, game machine, etc., and 
plugs into the home network.)  For example:
 A.  Create a Word (and OpenOffice) datawindow type.  Programmer defines the 
SQL as for any  datawindow.  PB creates a Word/OO mail-merge source document 
with those fields and any computed columns as merge fields.  I can type and 
format text in the painter or Save As Word to edit the text in Word.  When 
the user wants to do a mail merge, that DW replaces Excel as the data file.
 B.  Create a *production-quality* interface into as many third-party 
applications as possible.  Quicken, Flexnet, MapPoint, standard accounting 
applications, and anything else that presents an API and might be used in an 
office.  Tie in to Adobe Acrobat to allow Print To PDF, Append to PDF, 
Insert into PDF, etc.  This can be made available as an opensource PFC-style 
project, but would start with Sybase and would be "nurtured" by Sybase.  The 
purpose of this is to give PB programmers the tools to very quickly complete 
a job.  With the source available, customizations could be made, but 
extensive functionality is already there.  Let the PB programmer get the 
application working now and explore the 'How it works' later.  Yes, 
CodeXchange has examples, but that forces a new PB programmer to have to 
become educated in the OLE arts to complete the job.
 C.  OLEControl is a 'dumb' object, providing a couple generic functions 
that work for all applications.  Make intelligent OLEObjects that are each 
specific to a single application such as Word, Acrobat, Excel, or 
OpenOffice.  Allow native, bidirectional API communications for that 
application's functions AND events.  Inherit each application's OLEObject 
from a single object, so if I install my PB application on PC 1, with Word 
2000, and PC 2, with Word 2003, functions not in Word 2000 return -1 for PC 
1 but work on PC 2.  The PB programmer just has to be sure the client has a 
minimum application version, and know that PB will adapt.
D.  We have OffSite! to work in the native menu system and InPlace! to work 
in a box floating over the PB application.  Have a third Activate() style 
that has the look and feel of an object ON the window.  Include a toggle I 
can set to see the native application menu within that object or just the 
document, spreadsheet, or map.  Offsite! and InPlace! are simply clumsy and 
awkward methods to access documents from within PB, and we cannot easily 
access statistics or programmatically alter the document.


(I know I can do most of these things myself, but I've been doing this for 
more than 10 years.  You need something that sets PB apart, that makes 
people say, "It would be easier if we used PowerBuilder for that."  Read the 
news groups and look at how many times programmers are asking for help to 
manage OLE connections to common applications.  I'd love to see a message 
when I install PB12 that says, "PowerBuilder has detected Word, Excel, 
Acrobat Standard, Quicken, and MapPoint.  Would you like to integrate 
interfaces for these applications into your IDE and compiled applications?")


2.  Create a DW object I can drop on the window.  Allow me to grant access 
to tables and columns within tables.  The user can then pick and choose 
columns and build a datawindow using the fields I allowed.  Basically, 
include the DW painter as a control in my application.  Allow the user to 
select the DW style and to do grouping.  Power users will love it!  I know 
this can be done.  I wrote this for a previous employer.  If I remember 
correctly, this is already on the ISUG list.


3.  Bring PB up to current standards (so the lack thereof is NOT the 
differentiator):
 A.  GRAPHS.  Managers love graphs.  Custom colors, new styles, gradients, 
automatically arcing lines from point to point, and nonlinear series values.
 B.  Quality image management.  PB is often used for inventory or employee 
management.  PB should be able to read an image from the database directly 
into a datawindow.  It should include functions for scaling, thumbnails, 
sorting, rotating, etc.
 C.  If it's in Kodigo, it should be in native PB.


4.  Encourage community involvement in the PFC.  Bribery works.  Allow 
developers to accrue "Sybase bucks" good toward products or services by 
contributing to the PFC.  The PFC is a great tool for shortening the 
time-to-market while increasing stability, but it's maintained during our 
"free time", whenever that is, or local solutions are not forwarded to the 
community.  I don't know how this would be managed, but it's a thought!  And 
make it easier to find the PFC on the web site, so newbies can quickly 
locate the download.


Sorry for the long post; it's a broad topic!

Ken








"John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
news:4762b160$1@forums-1-dub...
> Blah blah blah
>
> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how many
> times...
>
> The DataWindow.
>
> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>
> This from one of our colleagues
> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>
> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
> Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
> the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
> seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and I've
> looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool
> (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
>
> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
> and thanks in advance for your investment of
> time/effort to respond...
>
> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
> does PowerBuilder still have
> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>
> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>
> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>
> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>
> Maybe its a single feature.
> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already does.
>
> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
> to the litmus test...
> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?
> -- 
> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>
>
> 

Ken,

Finally, a real Good post. Thank you for taking the time.


On 9 Jan 2008 12:44:26 -0800,
 in sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
Ken Judkins <nospam@nospam.com> wrote: 
>John,
>
>
>1) What true competitive differentiators does PowerBuilder still have as 
>2007 draws to a close?
>
>The differences technically are getting fewer and fewer, this is true.  MS 
>will always be "ahead" technologically, but they are also spending far more 
>money to get there.  Sybase cannot compete with that, and should not try. 
>My suggestion is to have two lists of recent MS enhancements:  technological 
>advances and eye candy.  Prioritize each list.  Set the goal that the top 3 
>items on each list will never be more than 6 months away from release.  Let 
>MS do all the research and Sybase simply implements the best of their 
>creations.
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
>
>2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder that would be a true 
>competitive differentiator?
>
>PB is a business language.  Anything that makes an office run smoother OR 
>allows a programmer to complete a job quicker should be the focus.
>
>My suggestions tend to favor the C/S platform.  Brainstorming:
>1.  Many offices want some type of automation that involves Word, Acrobat, 
>Excel, OpenOffice, Outlook and/or Notes.  Integrate the top 5-10 business 
>applications into PowerBuilder if the client has them installed.  Make 
>PowerBuilder THE go-to application for office automation.  (Make PB like the 
>home theatre unit that controls the TV, stereo, DVD, game machine, etc., and 
>plugs into the home network.)  For example:
> A.  Create a Word (and OpenOffice) datawindow type.  Programmer defines the 
>SQL as for any  datawindow.  PB creates a Word/OO mail-merge source document 
>with those fields and any computed columns as merge fields.  I can type and 
>format text in the painter or Save As Word to edit the text in Word.  When 
>the user wants to do a mail merge, that DW replaces Excel as the data file.
> B.  Create a *production-quality* interface into as many third-party 
>applications as possible.  Quicken, Flexnet, MapPoint, standard accounting 
>applications, and anything else that presents an API and might be used in an 
>office.  Tie in to Adobe Acrobat to allow Print To PDF, Append to PDF, 
>Insert into PDF, etc.  This can be made available as an opensource PFC-style 
>project, but would start with Sybase and would be "nurtured" by Sybase.  The 
>purpose of this is to give PB programmers the tools to very quickly complete 
>a job.  With the source available, customizations could be made, but 
>extensive functionality is already there.  Let the PB programmer get the 
>application working now and explore the 'How it works' later.  Yes, 
>CodeXchange has examples, but that forces a new PB programmer to have to 
>become educated in the OLE arts to complete the job.
> C.  OLEControl is a 'dumb' object, providing a couple generic functions 
>that work for all applications.  Make intelligent OLEObjects that are each 
>specific to a single application such as Word, Acrobat, Excel, or 
>OpenOffice.  Allow native, bidirectional API communications for that 
>application's functions AND events.  Inherit each application's OLEObject 
>from a single object, so if I install my PB application on PC 1, with Word 
>2000, and PC 2, with Word 2003, functions not in Word 2000 return -1 for PC 
>1 but work on PC 2.  The PB programmer just has to be sure the client has a 
>minimum application version, and know that PB will adapt.
>D.  We have OffSite! to work in the native menu system and InPlace! to work 
>in a box floating over the PB application.  Have a third Activate() style 
>that has the look and feel of an object ON the window.  Include a toggle I 
>can set to see the native application menu within that object or just the 
>document, spreadsheet, or map.  Offsite! and InPlace! are simply clumsy and 
>awkward methods to access documents from within PB, and we cannot easily 
>access statistics or programmatically alter the document.
>
>
>(I know I can do most of these things myself, but I've been doing this for 
>more than 10 years.  You need something that sets PB apart, that makes 
>people say, "It would be easier if we used PowerBuilder for that."  Read the 
>news groups and look at how many times programmers are asking for help to 
>manage OLE connections to common applications.  I'd love to see a message 
>when I install PB12 that says, "PowerBuilder has detected Word, Excel, 
>Acrobat Standard, Quicken, and MapPoint.  Would you like to integrate 
>interfaces for these applications into your IDE and compiled applications?")
>
>
>2.  Create a DW object I can drop on the window.  Allow me to grant access 
>to tables and columns within tables.  The user can then pick and choose 
>columns and build a datawindow using the fields I allowed.  Basically, 
>include the DW painter as a control in my application.  Allow the user to 
>select the DW style and to do grouping.  Power users will love it!  I know 
>this can be done.  I wrote this for a previous employer.  If I remember 
>correctly, this is already on the ISUG list.
>
>
>3.  Bring PB up to current standards (so the lack thereof is NOT the 
>differentiator):
> A.  GRAPHS.  Managers love graphs.  Custom colors, new styles, gradients, 
>automatically arcing lines from point to point, and nonlinear series values.
> B.  Quality image management.  PB is often used for inventory or employee 
>management.  PB should be able to read an image from the database directly 
>into a datawindow.  It should include functions for scaling, thumbnails, 
>sorting, rotating, etc.
> C.  If it's in Kodigo, it should be in native PB.
>
>
>4.  Encourage community involvement in the PFC.  Bribery works.  Allow 
>developers to accrue "Sybase bucks" good toward products or services by 
>contributing to the PFC.  The PFC is a great tool for shortening the 
>time-to-market while increasing stability, but it's maintained during our 
>"free time", whenever that is, or local solutions are not forwarded to the 
>community.  I don't know how this would be managed, but it's a thought!  And 
>make it easier to find the PFC on the web site, so newbies can quickly 
>locate the download.
>
>
>Sorry for the long post; it's a broad topic!
>
>Ken
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>"John Strano[Sybase]" <nichtspamjstrano@csi.com> wrote in message 
>news:4762b160$1@forums-1-dub...
>> Blah blah blah
>>
>> You've heard it enough that you don't even want to comment on how many
>> times...
>>
>> The DataWindow.
>>
>> ...but it can't be enough anymore...can it?
>>
>> This from one of our colleagues
>> (and yes my apologies for taking it out of context)...
>>
>> "...PB covers all you need to do that in ONE Tool. This
>> includes Windowprogramming ( meaning the interface to the user:
>> Windows, Sheets, diallougeboxes, etc.), Database operability AND
>> Reporting! Well, I see als well as many other PB users that some of
>> the implementations and features PB offers are improvable. But this
>> seems not to be the main issue here to be discussed. Fact is, and I've
>> looked around to may other Programming systems, there is NO OTHER tool
>> (I did not find any) which is comparable RAD..."
>>
>> So here's the two-fold feedback I'm hoping for
>> and thanks in advance for your investment of
>> time/effort to respond...
>>
>> *** 1) What true competitive differentiators
>> does PowerBuilder still have
>> as 2007 draws to a close? ***
>>
>> Yes, we can add/improve features but...
>>
>> *** 2) What can we add to, or change about PowerBuilder
>> that would be a true competitive differentiator? ***
>>
>> Arguably one way to distill this down would be to ask
>> what can be done for PowerBuilder that would make it
>> better than (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET)?
>>
>> Maybe its a single feature.
>> Maybe its a new category of functionality.
>> Maybe its a "eureka" modification to something PowerBuilder already does.
>>
>> There are plenty of enhancement requests on ISUG
>> and in Case Express, but what I'm really hoping
>> from the feedback on this thread is that we keep
>> to the litmus test...
>> ...is what you're suggesting a truly competitive differentiator?
>> -- 
>> John Strano - Sybase Technology Evangelist
>>
>>
>> 
>
>

Yes some great idea's but I doubt we will see anything much change in PB12 or in
the companies attitude in dealing with this product.



On 11 Jan 2008 07:05:26 -0800,
 in sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
pbdev <john@aol..com> wrote: 
>Ken,
>
>Finally, a real Good post. Thank you for taking the time.
>
>

Why sybase want to add web features to PowerBuilder during the last many 
years? PowerBuilder is powerfull tools as client/server tools but you want 
to someting web based enhancement, that we newer use and I dont think to use 
it. Please make Pb more usefull as a client/server tools.


"Mike Novack" <nospam@spam.com> wrote in message 
news:4787efc3@forums-1-dub...
> Yes some great idea's but I doubt we will see anything much change in PB12 
> or in
> the companies attitude in dealing with this product.
>
>
>
> On 11 Jan 2008 07:05:26 -0800,
> in sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
> pbdev <john@aol..com> wrote:
>>Ken,
>>
>>Finally, a real Good post. Thank you for taking the time.
>>
>> 

Murat;

 Stay tuned for PB 11.5 in 2008 and v12 in 2009 for that.  :-)

-- 
Regards ... Chris
http://chrispollach.pbdjmagazine.com
 ,\|/,
(0 0)
-(_)-


"Murat Yelkovan" <muratyelkovan@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:47bc001f$1@forums-1-dub...
> Why sybase want to add web features to PowerBuilder during the last many 
> years? PowerBuilder is powerfull tools as client/server tools but you want 
> to someting web based enhancement, that we newer use and I dont think to 
> use it. Please make Pb more usefull as a client/server tools.
>
>
> "Mike Novack" <nospam@spam.com> wrote in message 
> news:4787efc3@forums-1-dub...
>> Yes some great idea's but I doubt we will see anything much change in 
>> PB12 or in
>> the companies attitude in dealing with this product.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11 Jan 2008 07:05:26 -0800,
>> in sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
>> pbdev <john@aol..com> wrote:
>>>Ken,
>>>
>>>Finally, a real Good post. Thank you for taking the time.
>>>
>>>
>
> 

John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
> 
> By adding value.
> 
> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only meant as
> one example to jog discussion, but has arguably muddied the water now.
> 
> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for something new
> to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors have...and of course there's
> more than one in 2007 and beyond.
> 
> So as a client/server development tool.
> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
> that would be competitive?
> 

LINUX/MAC SUPPORT!! Not many tools offer that. I know only 1 actually 
(Windev)

Time-To-Market is important for everyone that's why we choose a RAD  c/s 
tool.

Some Ideas (Not for argument, just a "I wish that was built-in" list):

- Be more open, allow people to make plug-ins for PB (e.g. transparent 
PNG plug-in, office like menu plug-in, OpenOffice plugin)
- Design/Run-time macros & screen capturing
- Voice support
- User/Group/Role Security
- LDAP/Active Directory support
- Logging to file or DB
- RAD Network development, we are living the internet world. e.g. 
ftpput(thisfile,'server','user/pass'), tcpsend('tohost','port','data')
- Better grids/DWs (DevXpress, Infragistics etc.)
- Scriptable "Changed" Event on variables (long, string or even object 
instance variables like listbox)
- Find using SQL and not in DW rows only.
- Autoupdate of applications
- Interfaces/Connectors to popular software e.g. SAP
- Runtime application scripting/customization
- USB/Serial Port/Bluetooth support
- Resizing/Docking - PB IDE like apps
- TCP/IP Messaging between clients e.g. PBSend('PBapp','host','message')
- Themes e.g. Just create a DW and it will look "nice" , no need to 
spend time on colors, fonts etc. Same with windows.
- Easy internationalization
- Horizontal DWs e.g. InsertColumn instead of InsertRow
- Licensing for applications (5user edition, 10user edition etc.)
- Install creation wizard
- Remote Control (VNC like)
- Smart Linking , no need to build PBD for whole PBL if only 1 object or 
function is used.
- Early binding for COM objects
- Objects Grouping st_1 + sle_1 = grp_1
- MS-Office & OpenOffice integration
- Ascii DWs which allow ESC chars (for PCL forms, Special Printers, 
Fiscal devices, etc.)
- It's nice how .Net assemblies work, can you do that with DLLs too?
- Gradients and transparencies.
- Better looking applications


Make some stuff open source, let the PB community play a part and grow.

Great list but u got ot be dreaming.
When u look over the posts from the last few years u realise a few
points..

Sybase has a very small team working on PB, that or they are just not
so good. Just look at each release since version 7.
If sybase continues along the same trend then this list below u would
be lucky to get after 5 more years.

Am not usually a Sybase basher but after so many years of hearing the
same thing sort of wears u out.



On 26 Feb 2008 16:10:08 -0800, ChrissDeGrece
<chriss_degrece@yahoo.com> wrote:

>John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>> 
>> By adding value.
>> 
>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only meant as
>> one example to jog discussion, but has arguably muddied the water now.
>> 
>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for something new
>> to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors have...and of course there's
>> more than one in 2007 and beyond.
>> 
>> So as a client/server development tool.
>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>> that would be competitive?
>> 
>
>LINUX/MAC SUPPORT!! Not many tools offer that. I know only 1 actually 
>(Windev)
>
>Time-To-Market is important for everyone that's why we choose a RAD  c/s 
>tool.
>
>Some Ideas (Not for argument, just a "I wish that was built-in" list):
>
>- Be more open, allow people to make plug-ins for PB (e.g. transparent 
>PNG plug-in, office like menu plug-in, OpenOffice plugin)
>- Design/Run-time macros & screen capturing
>- Voice support
>- User/Group/Role Security
>- LDAP/Active Directory support
>- Logging to file or DB
>- RAD Network development, we are living the internet world. e.g. 
>ftpput(thisfile,'server','user/pass'), tcpsend('tohost','port','data')
>- Better grids/DWs (DevXpress, Infragistics etc.)
>- Scriptable "Changed" Event on variables (long, string or even object 
>instance variables like listbox)
>- Find using SQL and not in DW rows only.
>- Autoupdate of applications
>- Interfaces/Connectors to popular software e.g. SAP
>- Runtime application scripting/customization
>- USB/Serial Port/Bluetooth support
>- Resizing/Docking - PB IDE like apps
>- TCP/IP Messaging between clients e.g. PBSend('PBapp','host','message')
>- Themes e.g. Just create a DW and it will look "nice" , no need to 
>spend time on colors, fonts etc. Same with windows.
>- Easy internationalization
>- Horizontal DWs e.g. InsertColumn instead of InsertRow
>- Licensing for applications (5user edition, 10user edition etc.)
>- Install creation wizard
>- Remote Control (VNC like)
>- Smart Linking , no need to build PBD for whole PBL if only 1 object or 
>function is used.
>- Early binding for COM objects
>- Objects Grouping st_1 + sle_1 = grp_1
>- MS-Office & OpenOffice integration
>- Ascii DWs which allow ESC chars (for PCL forms, Special Printers, 
>Fiscal devices, etc.)
>- It's nice how .Net assemblies work, can you do that with DLLs too?
>- Gradients and transparencies.
>- Better looking applications
>
>
>Make some stuff open source, let the PB community play a part and grow.

Actually yes, I am dreaming....

Dreams are free from reality's rules, aren't they?

Then, I can also dream of an OpenSource PB , managed by Sybase, 
Supported by Sybase (in order to earn money from it) but free for people 
to work with.

NOONE has done that before for a tool like PB, and many Linux companies 
have proved that this is a working business model. I can't even imagine 
the articles on dev sites and magazines if this happens....

Yawn, time to wake up. ;)

As for the list, most of the ideas listed are not so extreme, especially 
for experienced programmers that means a few days work.


MattN wrote:
> Great list but u got ot be dreaming.
> When u look over the posts from the last few years u realise a few
> points..
> 
> Sybase has a very small team working on PB, that or they are just not
> so good. Just look at each release since version 7.
> If sybase continues along the same trend then this list below u would
> be lucky to get after 5 more years.
> 
> Am not usually a Sybase basher but after so many years of hearing the
> same thing sort of wears u out.
> 
> 
> 

yes, but the odd thing is that in the last couple of releases we are starting to 
get things we have been asking years for.
best example - autosize height on all bands
11.5 we are supposed to be getting a rich text column style....

also, don't knock small teams.  I would give 10 avg developers for one great 
developer.
that being said, I have no idea how large the pb dev team is.


"MattN" <mjn1rar@gmailSPAM.com> wrote in message 
news:nuu9s3to0c6gtc7603mieod6mqntu7i7j4@4ax.com...
>
> Great list but u got ot be dreaming.
> When u look over the posts from the last few years u realise a few
> points..
>
> Sybase has a very small team working on PB, that or they are just not
> so good. Just look at each release since version 7.
> If sybase continues along the same trend then this list below u would
> be lucky to get after 5 more years.
>
> Am not usually a Sybase basher but after so many years of hearing the
> same thing sort of wears u out.
>
>
>
> On 26 Feb 2008 16:10:08 -0800, ChrissDeGrece
> <chriss_degrece@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>
>>> By adding value.
>>>
>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only meant as
>>> one example to jog discussion, but has arguably muddied the water now.
>>>
>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for something new
>>> to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors have...and of course there's
>>> more than one in 2007 and beyond.
>>>
>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>> that would be competitive?
>>>
>>
>>LINUX/MAC SUPPORT!! Not many tools offer that. I know only 1 actually
>>(Windev)
>>
>>Time-To-Market is important for everyone that's why we choose a RAD  c/s
>>tool.
>>
>>Some Ideas (Not for argument, just a "I wish that was built-in" list):
>>
>>- Be more open, allow people to make plug-ins for PB (e.g. transparent
>>PNG plug-in, office like menu plug-in, OpenOffice plugin)
>>- Design/Run-time macros & screen capturing
>>- Voice support
>>- User/Group/Role Security
>>- LDAP/Active Directory support
>>- Logging to file or DB
>>- RAD Network development, we are living the internet world. e.g.
>>ftpput(thisfile,'server','user/pass'), tcpsend('tohost','port','data')
>>- Better grids/DWs (DevXpress, Infragistics etc.)
>>- Scriptable "Changed" Event on variables (long, string or even object
>>instance variables like listbox)
>>- Find using SQL and not in DW rows only.
>>- Autoupdate of applications
>>- Interfaces/Connectors to popular software e.g. SAP
>>- Runtime application scripting/customization
>>- USB/Serial Port/Bluetooth support
>>- Resizing/Docking - PB IDE like apps
>>- TCP/IP Messaging between clients e.g. PBSend('PBapp','host','message')
>>- Themes e.g. Just create a DW and it will look "nice" , no need to
>>spend time on colors, fonts etc. Same with windows.
>>- Easy internationalization
>>- Horizontal DWs e.g. InsertColumn instead of InsertRow
>>- Licensing for applications (5user edition, 10user edition etc.)
>>- Install creation wizard
>>- Remote Control (VNC like)
>>- Smart Linking , no need to build PBD for whole PBL if only 1 object or
>>function is used.
>>- Early binding for COM objects
>>- Objects Grouping st_1 + sle_1 = grp_1
>>- MS-Office & OpenOffice integration
>>- Ascii DWs which allow ESC chars (for PCL forms, Special Printers,
>>Fiscal devices, etc.)
>>- It's nice how .Net assemblies work, can you do that with DLLs too?
>>- Gradients and transparencies.
>>- Better looking applications
>>
>>
>>Make some stuff open source, let the PB community play a part and grow. 

Obligatory Tao of Programming quote:

A manager went to the master programmer and showed him the requirements 
document for a new application. The manager asked the master: ``How long 
will it take to design this system if I assign five programmers to it?''

``It will take one year,'' said the master promptly.

``But we need this system immediately or even sooner! How long will it take 
if I assign ten programmers to it?''

The master programmer frowned. ``In that case, it will take two years.''

``And what if I assign a hundred programmers to it?''

The master programmer shrugged. ``Then the design will never be completed,'' 
he said.

"M. Searer" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message 
news:47c587bf$1@forums-1-dub...
> yes, but the odd thing is that in the last couple of releases we are 
> starting to get things we have been asking years for.
> best example - autosize height on all bands
> 11.5 we are supposed to be getting a rich text column style....
>
> also, don't knock small teams.  I would give 10 avg developers for one 
> great developer.
> that being said, I have no idea how large the pb dev team is.
>
>
> "MattN" <mjn1rar@gmailSPAM.com> wrote in message 
> news:nuu9s3to0c6gtc7603mieod6mqntu7i7j4@4ax.com...
>>
>> Great list but u got ot be dreaming.
>> When u look over the posts from the last few years u realise a few
>> points..
>>
>> Sybase has a very small team working on PB, that or they are just not
>> so good. Just look at each release since version 7.
>> If sybase continues along the same trend then this list below u would
>> be lucky to get after 5 more years.
>>
>> Am not usually a Sybase basher but after so many years of hearing the
>> same thing sort of wears u out.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 26 Feb 2008 16:10:08 -0800, ChrissDeGrece
>> <chriss_degrece@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>
>>>> By adding value.
>>>>
>>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only meant as
>>>> one example to jog discussion, but has arguably muddied the water now.
>>>>
>>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for something new
>>>> to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors have...and of course 
>>>> there's
>>>> more than one in 2007 and beyond.
>>>>
>>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>>> that would be competitive?
>>>>
>>>
>>>LINUX/MAC SUPPORT!! Not many tools offer that. I know only 1 actually
>>>(Windev)
>>>
>>>Time-To-Market is important for everyone that's why we choose a RAD  c/s
>>>tool.
>>>
>>>Some Ideas (Not for argument, just a "I wish that was built-in" list):
>>>
>>>- Be more open, allow people to make plug-ins for PB (e.g. transparent
>>>PNG plug-in, office like menu plug-in, OpenOffice plugin)
>>>- Design/Run-time macros & screen capturing
>>>- Voice support
>>>- User/Group/Role Security
>>>- LDAP/Active Directory support
>>>- Logging to file or DB
>>>- RAD Network development, we are living the internet world. e.g.
>>>ftpput(thisfile,'server','user/pass'), tcpsend('tohost','port','data')
>>>- Better grids/DWs (DevXpress, Infragistics etc.)
>>>- Scriptable "Changed" Event on variables (long, string or even object
>>>instance variables like listbox)
>>>- Find using SQL and not in DW rows only.
>>>- Autoupdate of applications
>>>- Interfaces/Connectors to popular software e.g. SAP
>>>- Runtime application scripting/customization
>>>- USB/Serial Port/Bluetooth support
>>>- Resizing/Docking - PB IDE like apps
>>>- TCP/IP Messaging between clients e.g. PBSend('PBapp','host','message')
>>>- Themes e.g. Just create a DW and it will look "nice" , no need to
>>>spend time on colors, fonts etc. Same with windows.
>>>- Easy internationalization
>>>- Horizontal DWs e.g. InsertColumn instead of InsertRow
>>>- Licensing for applications (5user edition, 10user edition etc.)
>>>- Install creation wizard
>>>- Remote Control (VNC like)
>>>- Smart Linking , no need to build PBD for whole PBL if only 1 object or
>>>function is used.
>>>- Early binding for COM objects
>>>- Objects Grouping st_1 + sle_1 = grp_1
>>>- MS-Office & OpenOffice integration
>>>- Ascii DWs which allow ESC chars (for PCL forms, Special Printers,
>>>Fiscal devices, etc.)
>>>- It's nice how .Net assemblies work, can you do that with DLLs too?
>>>- Gradients and transparencies.
>>>- Better looking applications
>>>
>>>
>>>Make some stuff open source, let the PB community play a part and grow.
>
> 

It's called "The Mythical Man Month".  Not sure if they still publish 
it, but it was required reading in college.


Jonathan


Ken Balakrishnan wrote:
> Obligatory Tao of Programming quote:
> 
> A manager went to the master programmer and showed him the requirements 
> document for a new application. The manager asked the master: ``How long 
> will it take to design this system if I assign five programmers to it?''
> 
> ``It will take one year,'' said the master promptly.
> 
> ``But we need this system immediately or even sooner! How long will it take 
> if I assign ten programmers to it?''
> 
> The master programmer frowned. ``In that case, it will take two years.''
> 
> ``And what if I assign a hundred programmers to it?''
> 
> The master programmer shrugged. ``Then the design will never be completed,'' 
> he said.
> 
> "M. Searer" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message 
> news:47c587bf$1@forums-1-dub...
>> yes, but the odd thing is that in the last couple of releases we are 
>> starting to get things we have been asking years for.
>> best example - autosize height on all bands
>> 11.5 we are supposed to be getting a rich text column style....
>>
>> also, don't knock small teams.  I would give 10 avg developers for one 
>> great developer.
>> that being said, I have no idea how large the pb dev team is.
>>
>>
>> "MattN" <mjn1rar@gmailSPAM.com> wrote in message 
>> news:nuu9s3to0c6gtc7603mieod6mqntu7i7j4@4ax.com...
>>> Great list but u got ot be dreaming.
>>> When u look over the posts from the last few years u realise a few
>>> points..
>>>
>>> Sybase has a very small team working on PB, that or they are just not
>>> so good. Just look at each release since version 7.
>>> If sybase continues along the same trend then this list below u would
>>> be lucky to get after 5 more years.
>>>
>>> Am not usually a Sybase basher but after so many years of hearing the
>>> same thing sort of wears u out.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 26 Feb 2008 16:10:08 -0800, ChrissDeGrece
>>> <chriss_degrece@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Strano[Sybase] wrote:
>>>>> By adding value.
>>>>>
>>>>> The (Visual Studio + DataWindow .NET) example...is only meant as
>>>>> one example to jog discussion, but has arguably muddied the water now.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rather than compare feature lists with VS, I'm hoping for something new
>>>>> to be suggested that _no_other_ competitors have...and of course 
>>>>> there's
>>>>> more than one in 2007 and beyond.
>>>>>
>>>>> So as a client/server development tool.
>>>>> Do you have any differentiators to suggest
>>>>> that would be competitive?
>>>>>
>>>> LINUX/MAC SUPPORT!! Not many tools offer that. I know only 1 actually
>>>> (Windev)
>>>>
>>>> Time-To-Market is important for everyone that's why we choose a RAD  c/s
>>>> tool.
>>>>
>>>> Some Ideas (Not for argument, just a "I wish that was built-in" list):
>>>>
>>>> - Be more open, allow people to make plug-ins for PB (e.g. transparent
>>>> PNG plug-in, office like menu plug-in, OpenOffice plugin)
>>>> - Design/Run-time macros & screen capturing
>>>> - Voice support
>>>> - User/Group/Role Security
>>>> - LDAP/Active Directory support
>>>> - Logging to file or DB
>>>> - RAD Network development, we are living the internet world. e.g.
>>>> ftpput(thisfile,'server','user/pass'), tcpsend('tohost','port','data')
>>>> - Better grids/DWs (DevXpress, Infragistics etc.)
>>>> - Scriptable "Changed" Event on variables (long, string or even object
>>>> instance variables like listbox)
>>>> - Find using SQL and not in DW rows only.
>>>> - Autoupdate of applications
>>>> - Interfaces/Connectors to popular software e.g. SAP
>>>> - Runtime application scripting/customization
>>>> - USB/Serial Port/Bluetooth support
>>>> - Resizing/Docking - PB IDE like apps
>>>> - TCP/IP Messaging between clients e.g. PBSend('PBapp','host','message')
>>>> - Themes e.g. Just create a DW and it will look "nice" , no need to
>>>> spend time on colors, fonts etc. Same with windows.
>>>> - Easy internationalization
>>>> - Horizontal DWs e.g. InsertColumn instead of InsertRow
>>>> - Licensing for applications (5user edition, 10user edition etc.)
>>>> - Install creation wizard
>>>> - Remote Control (VNC like)
>>>> - Smart Linking , no need to build PBD for whole PBL if only 1 object or
>>>> function is used.
>>>> - Early binding for COM objects
>>>> - Objects Grouping st_1 + sle_1 = grp_1
>>>> - MS-Office & OpenOffice integration
>>>> - Ascii DWs which allow ESC chars (for PCL forms, Special Printers,
>>>> Fiscal devices, etc.)
>>>> - It's nice how .Net assemblies work, can you do that with DLLs too?
>>>> - Gradients and transparencies.
>>>> - Better looking applications
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Make some stuff open source, let the PB community play a part and grow.
>>
> 
> 

Anniversary edition

http://www.amazon.com/Mythical-Man-Month-Software-Engineering-Anniversary/dp/0201835959/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204142662&sr=8-1

Great Read.