What is EAS/PowerBuilder future?

What is the future of PowerBuilder to develop middle-tier code for Jaguar
and as a whole?


0
egattu
6/8/2001 12:28:06 PM
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In article <Vd3myfB8AHA.261@forums.sybase.com>, egattu@yahoo.com says...
> What is the future of PowerBuilder to develop middle-tier code for Jaguar
> and as a whole?
> 
> 
> 
Come to TechWave and find out<g> 

Sybase is still committed to PowerBuilder!

Mark

0
Mark
6/8/2001 3:16:09 PM
Except for Linux...

"Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase]" wrote:

> In article <Vd3myfB8AHA.261@forums.sybase.com>, egattu@yahoo.com says...
> > What is the future of PowerBuilder to develop middle-tier code for Jaguar
> > and as a whole?
> >
> >
> >
> Come to TechWave and find out<g>
>
> Sybase is still committed to PowerBuilder!
>
> Mark

0
David
6/8/2001 5:26:53 PM
This is a good point.. Are Sybase planning support Powerbuilder development
in Linux!?

Thank you,

Wendell.

"David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
news:3B210ADD.208DA07A@prescriber.com...
> Except for Linux...
>
> "Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase]" wrote:
>
> > In article <Vd3myfB8AHA.261@forums.sybase.com>, egattu@yahoo.com says...
> > > What is the future of PowerBuilder to develop middle-tier code for
Jaguar
> > > and as a whole?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > Come to TechWave and find out<g>
> >
> > Sybase is still committed to PowerBuilder!
> >
> > Mark
>


0
Wendell
6/8/2001 9:21:04 PM
The last word was NO.  The powers that be at Sybase don't think there's enough
interest in PB for Linux to make porting PB worthwhile.  Funny, I guess there
must be a substantial number of Solaris, HP-UX and AIX PB developers out there.

Wendell Rios wrote:

> This is a good point.. Are Sybase planning support Powerbuilder development
> in Linux!?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Wendell.
>
> "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> news:3B210ADD.208DA07A@prescriber.com...
> > Except for Linux...
> >
> > "Mark Pfeifer[TeamSybase]" wrote:
> >
> > > In article <Vd3myfB8AHA.261@forums.sybase.com>, egattu@yahoo.com says...
> > > > What is the future of PowerBuilder to develop middle-tier code for
> Jaguar
> > > > and as a whole?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Come to TechWave and find out<g>
> > >
> > > Sybase is still committed to PowerBuilder!
> > >
> > > Mark
> >

0
David
6/8/2001 11:07:31 PM
We have clients writing code in PB, Java and C.

--
Dean Jones TeamSybase
PowerTeam, Inc.
www.powerobjects.com
WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
Come visit our booth at TechWave
EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar


<egattu@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Vd3myfB8AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> What is the future of PowerBuilder to develop middle-tier code for Jaguar
> and as a whole?
>
>


0
Dean
6/12/2001 9:48:02 PM
Bleak at best, given the typical Sybase mismanagement of product marketing, 
customer service, etc.

Here's the latest:
Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released PowerBuilder 8 
today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't actually GET it 
now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is available.

Now that's interesting -- the product is released, but not available. 
Clever.

Oh, and all you EA Studio customers -- guess what else Sybase has come up 
with?  Despite the fact that PowerBuilder is a part of EA Studio, and 
despite the fact that you may be an EA Studio and EA Server customer, you 
are NOT entitled to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade!  Yep, you got it.  This is 
even better than it sounds, because many of you, like us, were originally 
PowerBuilder Enterprise customers, and then Sybase came along and 
AUTOMATICALLY upgraded you to be EA Studio customers (when PB 7 came out). 
Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the PowerBuilder 
upgrade?!

Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one of 
you.  Give it up.  Spare us the typically excuses and finger pointing about 
why all of this is actually OUR fault or why this is actually a GOOD thing 
for us or why we should be the one marketing your freaking product because 
it will be more believable coming from us.  You have continually SH*T on 
your customers.  At this point it doesn't even matter how good or bad the 
product is.  It doesn't matter that there happen to be a few good Sybase 
engineers who do what they can in this and other newsgroups to help out. 
You are so far behind in the application server market that it just doesn't 
matter anyway.  That battle was lost a long time ago; if you really think 
you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must figure it will be 
through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how they can leverage 
PB within EA Server.  Problem is, you can't piss off those customers FAST 
enough, apparently.  So now you've come up with another w
ay to do it.

Folks, do yourselves a favor:
http://developer.bea.com/index.jsp
http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/

0
So_Long_Yu
6/13/2001 5:20:19 PM
>>Here's the latest: Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released
>>PowerBuilder 8  today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't
>>actually GET it  now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is
available.
Well its kind of nice to know in advance so you can build into your project
plans when you will migrate and who will be involved etc. How long did
microsoft make us to wait for win95????

>>Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the PowerBuilder
>>upgrade?!
Sybase are a profit organisation and if PB8 is such a good product ( which I
believe it will be ) then they deserve to reap the rewards from it. I would
imagine that if you developed a good product you would want some money for it?
I don't imagine development tools for Oracle, BEA or IBM come cheap either.

>>Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one of
>>you.  Give it up.
Well I admit to being a sybase defender and attacker. I think they have a great
suite of products and they certainly have proven themselves over the years. EAS
is a superb product. On the other hand I agree that marketing and support need
some polishing, but those facts alone are not good enough reasons to give up on
solid development tools.

>>if you really think you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must
>>figure it will be through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how
they >>can leverage PB within EA Server.
I agree with you on this but you're just bringing up what has been discussed (
in a better tone ) on many occasions before.

Best of luck

A.

So_Long_Yu wrote:

> Bleak at best, given the typical Sybase mismanagement of product marketing,
> customer service, etc.
>
> Here's the latest:
> Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released PowerBuilder 8
> today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't actually GET it
> now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is available.
>
> Now that's interesting -- the product is released, but not available.
> Clever.
>
> Oh, and all you EA Studio customers -- guess what else Sybase has come up
> with?  Despite the fact that PowerBuilder is a part of EA Studio, and
> despite the fact that you may be an EA Studio and EA Server customer, you
> are NOT entitled to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade!  Yep, you got it.  This is
> even better than it sounds, because many of you, like us, were originally
> PowerBuilder Enterprise customers, and then Sybase came along and
> AUTOMATICALLY upgraded you to be EA Studio customers (when PB 7 came out).
> Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the PowerBuilder
> upgrade?!
>
> Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one of
> you.  Give it up.  Spare us the typically excuses and finger pointing about
> why all of this is actually OUR fault or why this is actually a GOOD thing
> for us or why we should be the one marketing your freaking product because
> it will be more believable coming from us.  You have continually SH*T on
> your customers.  At this point it doesn't even matter how good or bad the
> product is.  It doesn't matter that there happen to be a few good Sybase
> engineers who do what they can in this and other newsgroups to help out.
> You are so far behind in the application server market that it just doesn't
> matter anyway.  That battle was lost a long time ago; if you really think
> you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must figure it will be
> through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how they can leverage
> PB within EA Server.  Problem is, you can't piss off those customers FAST
> enough, apparently.  So now you've come up with another w
> ay to do it.
>
> Folks, do yourselves a favor:
> http://developer.bea.com/index.jsp
> http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/

--
__________________________

Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
System Architect
ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
The University of Sydney
Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
Mobile: +61 403 341 474
Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711


0
Adam
6/14/2001 3:15:31 AM
An additional two cents...

Sybase has decided NOT to port PB to Linux.  So, there is no transition path for
those of us who are fed up with Windows on Intel, but who would like to stay with
Intel.  The reason given, "Java will be the development platform of choice on
Linux".  If I have to port my PB components to Java in order to run on Linux, I am
no longer tied to EAServer (since it's the only application server that supports
the PBVM).  The decision makers at Sybase may not think so, but they're providing,
if not encouraging, a migration away from Sybase products for those long time PB
developers (which, I would imagine, is most of your customer base).  Windows is
fine for in-house applications of small to medium size, but Unix/Linux is the way
to go for industrial strength web applications.  I know this, I'm not comfortable
deploying an ASP application, that potentially could be taking hundreds of
thousands of hits, on Windows.  I don't care what Microsoft says about Windows
2000, I don't believe it can hack it (I'm not real interested in clustering 10+
machines).  In addition, I just don't know what to think about PB/EAServer for
Solaris, AIX and HP-UX.  They just don't seem to be getting much air play on the
newsgroups.  I'll deploy Apache/Tomcat/Jarkarta on Linux as a web server on the
front end and put my Oracle database on Linux on the back end.  It sure would be
nice to know I could deploy PB/EAServer on Linux in the middle.

Let's face facts, probably 98% of PB/EAServer developers are Windows/Intel based.
That's where they must stay if they want to stick with PB and Intel.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a long time PB developer who has migrated a Web.PB
application to EAServer.  I'm ready to migrate to Linux.  Again, If I'm forced to
port to Java, a whole new world opens up.  Since Sybase doesn't actively market
EAServer, no one asks or knows about EAServer.  Everyone asks about WebLogic and
WebSphere.  I don't know who makes the decisions at Sybase, but they're dropping
the ball big time.  I keep hearing how Sybase is getting there act together, but
nothing has changed.  PB and EAServer are outstanding products.  The technical
people behind these products should be proud.  Wish I could say the same for Sybase
marketing.

Well, I guess that was about 10 cents worth...

"Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]" wrote:

> >>Here's the latest: Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released
> >>PowerBuilder 8  today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't
> >>actually GET it  now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is
> available.
> Well its kind of nice to know in advance so you can build into your project
> plans when you will migrate and who will be involved etc. How long did
> microsoft make us to wait for win95????
>
> >>Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the PowerBuilder
> >>upgrade?!
> Sybase are a profit organisation and if PB8 is such a good product ( which I
> believe it will be ) then they deserve to reap the rewards from it. I would
> imagine that if you developed a good product you would want some money for it?
> I don't imagine development tools for Oracle, BEA or IBM come cheap either.
>
> >>Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one of
> >>you.  Give it up.
> Well I admit to being a sybase defender and attacker. I think they have a great
> suite of products and they certainly have proven themselves over the years. EAS
> is a superb product. On the other hand I agree that marketing and support need
> some polishing, but those facts alone are not good enough reasons to give up on
> solid development tools.
>
> >>if you really think you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must
> >>figure it will be through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how
> they >>can leverage PB within EA Server.
> I agree with you on this but you're just bringing up what has been discussed (
> in a better tone ) on many occasions before.
>
> Best of luck
>
> A.
>
> So_Long_Yu wrote:
>
> > Bleak at best, given the typical Sybase mismanagement of product marketing,
> > customer service, etc.
> >
> > Here's the latest:
> > Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released PowerBuilder 8
> > today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't actually GET it
> > now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is available.
> >
> > Now that's interesting -- the product is released, but not available.
> > Clever.
> >
> > Oh, and all you EA Studio customers -- guess what else Sybase has come up
> > with?  Despite the fact that PowerBuilder is a part of EA Studio, and
> > despite the fact that you may be an EA Studio and EA Server customer, you
> > are NOT entitled to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade!  Yep, you got it.  This is
> > even better than it sounds, because many of you, like us, were originally
> > PowerBuilder Enterprise customers, and then Sybase came along and
> > AUTOMATICALLY upgraded you to be EA Studio customers (when PB 7 came out).
> > Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the PowerBuilder
> > upgrade?!
> >
> > Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one of
> > you.  Give it up.  Spare us the typically excuses and finger pointing about
> > why all of this is actually OUR fault or why this is actually a GOOD thing
> > for us or why we should be the one marketing your freaking product because
> > it will be more believable coming from us.  You have continually SH*T on
> > your customers.  At this point it doesn't even matter how good or bad the
> > product is.  It doesn't matter that there happen to be a few good Sybase
> > engineers who do what they can in this and other newsgroups to help out.
> > You are so far behind in the application server market that it just doesn't
> > matter anyway.  That battle was lost a long time ago; if you really think
> > you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must figure it will be
> > through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how they can leverage
> > PB within EA Server.  Problem is, you can't piss off those customers FAST
> > enough, apparently.  So now you've come up with another w
> > ay to do it.
> >
> > Folks, do yourselves a favor:
> > http://developer.bea.com/index.jsp
> > http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/
>
> --
> __________________________
>
> Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
> System Architect
> ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
> The University of Sydney
> Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
> Mobile: +61 403 341 474
> Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711

0
David
6/14/2001 7:32:18 AM
David,

Get enough people that share your point of view and you may get Sybase to
change their mind -- the decision not to port PB to Linux was primarilly
based on demand, which apparently is not there yet, at least not in numbers
that could justify spending the millions of $s it would cost to do so.

Vote soon, vote often...

--
<hopethishelps />
Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231

"David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
news:3B286882.87C3C6DD@prescriber.com...
> An additional two cents...
>
> Sybase has decided NOT to port PB to Linux.  So, there is no transition
path for
> those of us who are fed up with Windows on Intel, but who would like to
stay with
> Intel.  The reason given, "Java will be the development platform of choice
on
> Linux".  If I have to port my PB components to Java in order to run on
Linux, I am
> no longer tied to EAServer (since it's the only application server that
supports
> the PBVM).  The decision makers at Sybase may not think so, but they're
providing,
> if not encouraging, a migration away from Sybase products for those long
time PB
> developers (which, I would imagine, is most of your customer base).
Windows is
> fine for in-house applications of small to medium size, but Unix/Linux is
the way
> to go for industrial strength web applications.  I know this, I'm not
comfortable
> deploying an ASP application, that potentially could be taking hundreds of
> thousands of hits, on Windows.  I don't care what Microsoft says about
Windows
> 2000, I don't believe it can hack it (I'm not real interested in
clustering 10+
> machines).  In addition, I just don't know what to think about PB/EAServer
for
> Solaris, AIX and HP-UX.  They just don't seem to be getting much air play
on the
> newsgroups.  I'll deploy Apache/Tomcat/Jarkarta on Linux as a web server
on the
> front end and put my Oracle database on Linux on the back end.  It sure
would be
> nice to know I could deploy PB/EAServer on Linux in the middle.
>
> Let's face facts, probably 98% of PB/EAServer developers are Windows/Intel
based.
> That's where they must stay if they want to stick with PB and Intel.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I'm a long time PB developer who has migrated a Web.PB
> application to EAServer.  I'm ready to migrate to Linux.  Again, If I'm
forced to
> port to Java, a whole new world opens up.  Since Sybase doesn't actively
market
> EAServer, no one asks or knows about EAServer.  Everyone asks about
WebLogic and
> WebSphere.  I don't know who makes the decisions at Sybase, but they're
dropping
> the ball big time.  I keep hearing how Sybase is getting there act
together, but
> nothing has changed.  PB and EAServer are outstanding products.  The
technical
> people behind these products should be proud.  Wish I could say the same
for Sybase
> marketing.
>
> Well, I guess that was about 10 cents worth...
>
> "Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]" wrote:
>
> > >>Here's the latest: Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just
released
> > >>PowerBuilder 8  today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you
can't
> > >>actually GET it  now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is
> > available.
> > Well its kind of nice to know in advance so you can build into your
project
> > plans when you will migrate and who will be involved etc. How long did
> > microsoft make us to wait for win95????
> >
> > >>Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the PowerBuilder
> > >>upgrade?!
> > Sybase are a profit organisation and if PB8 is such a good product (
which I
> > believe it will be ) then they deserve to reap the rewards from it. I
would
> > imagine that if you developed a good product you would want some money
for it?
> > I don't imagine development tools for Oracle, BEA or IBM come cheap
either.
> >
> > >>Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one
of
> > >>you.  Give it up.
> > Well I admit to being a sybase defender and attacker. I think they have
a great
> > suite of products and they certainly have proven themselves over the
years. EAS
> > is a superb product. On the other hand I agree that marketing and
support need
> > some polishing, but those facts alone are not good enough reasons to
give up on
> > solid development tools.
> >
> > >>if you really think you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then
you must
> > >>figure it will be through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing
out how
> > they >>can leverage PB within EA Server.
> > I agree with you on this but you're just bringing up what has been
discussed (
> > in a better tone ) on many occasions before.
> >
> > Best of luck
> >
> > A.
> >
> > So_Long_Yu wrote:
> >
> > > Bleak at best, given the typical Sybase mismanagement of product
marketing,
> > > customer service, etc.
> > >
> > > Here's the latest:
> > > Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released PowerBuilder 8
> > > today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't actually GET
it
> > > now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is available.
> > >
> > > Now that's interesting -- the product is released, but not available.
> > > Clever.
> > >
> > > Oh, and all you EA Studio customers -- guess what else Sybase has come
up
> > > with?  Despite the fact that PowerBuilder is a part of EA Studio, and
> > > despite the fact that you may be an EA Studio and EA Server customer,
you
> > > are NOT entitled to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade!  Yep, you got it.
This is
> > > even better than it sounds, because many of you, like us, were
originally
> > > PowerBuilder Enterprise customers, and then Sybase came along and
> > > AUTOMATICALLY upgraded you to be EA Studio customers (when PB 7 came
out).
> > > Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the PowerBuilder
> > > upgrade?!
> > >
> > > Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one
of
> > > you.  Give it up.  Spare us the typically excuses and finger pointing
about
> > > why all of this is actually OUR fault or why this is actually a GOOD
thing
> > > for us or why we should be the one marketing your freaking product
because
> > > it will be more believable coming from us.  You have continually SH*T
on
> > > your customers.  At this point it doesn't even matter how good or bad
the
> > > product is.  It doesn't matter that there happen to be a few good
Sybase
> > > engineers who do what they can in this and other newsgroups to help
out.
> > > You are so far behind in the application server market that it just
doesn't
> > > matter anyway.  That battle was lost a long time ago; if you really
think
> > > you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must figure it
will be
> > > through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how they can
leverage
> > > PB within EA Server.  Problem is, you can't piss off those customers
FAST
> > > enough, apparently.  So now you've come up with another w
> > > ay to do it.
> > >
> > > Folks, do yourselves a favor:
> > > http://developer.bea.com/index.jsp
> > > http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/
> >
> > --
> > __________________________
> >
> > Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
> > System Architect
> > ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
> > The University of Sydney
> > Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
> > Mobile: +61 403 341 474
> > Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711
>


0
Roy
6/14/2001 2:15:29 PM
>>>Sybase are a profit organisation and if PB8 is such a good >>>product ( 
which I
>>>believe it will be ) then they deserve to reap the rewards >>>from it. I 
would
>>>imagine that if you developed a good product you would want >>>some 
money for it?
>>>I don't imagine development tools for Oracle, BEA or IBM come >>>cheap 
either.
First of all you're missing the point.  But since you brought it up, 
believe me -- no one knows better than we do just exactly how well Syba$e 
"reap[s] the rewards from [their products]".

Anyway, in a recent call to Sybase Tech Support, we were told that a 
problem we are experiencing will be resolved in PowerBuilder 8.  Great, we 
thought, but when we expressed concern over how long it would be until we 
could get our hands on it, the rep told us emphatically, don't worry -- it 
will be out in June and probably before the middle of June.  It should be 
pretty clear that an ANNOUNCEMENT of a product will do us no good towards 
resolving a bug in the current version.  Now, either the tech knew about 
the situation and was intentionally bs-ing us, or Sybase has yet again 
failed to keep their customer service / tech support people informed as to 
the plan.

>>>>>Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used 
>>>to be one of
>>>>>you.  Give it up.
>>>Well I admit to being a sybase defender and attacker. I think >>>they 
have a great
>>>suite of products and they certainly have proven themselves >>>over the 
years. EAS
>>>is a superb product. On the other hand I agree that marketing >>>and 
support need
>>>some polishing, but those facts alone are not good enough >>>reasons to 
give up on
>>>solid development tools.
A) We would argue with you that is EXACTLY these facts that provide the 
reason why many people already HAVE left Sybase in favor of other vendors 
and products.

B) It is NOT just these facts, by the way.  Our opinion, your opinion, or 
the opinion of whomever is irrelevant by itself.  However, the overall 
INDUSTRY's opinion does matter.  And the industry barely even knows what EA 
Server is.  Go ahead, take the challenge.  Find one MAJOR (minor?) trade 
rag mentioning EA Server.  Of those, how many mention it in a POSITIVE 
light?  Now attempt the same thing for WebSphere, Weblogic, etc.


>>>>>if you really think you are going to compete with BEA and >>>IBM, then 
you must
>>>>>figure it will be through attracting PowerBuilder shops by >>>pointing 
out how
>>>they >>can leverage PB within EA Server.
>>>I agree with you on this but you're just bringing up what has >>>been 
discussed (
>>>in a better tone ) on many occasions before.
Yes, you see.  It's the unhappy customers' TONE that is the cause of all of 
Sybase's problems.  Thank you for proving that point.  And, the fact that 
something has been brought up before does not reduce its importance 
(despite what Clinton might have tried to convince us of).  Now, maybe if 
Sybase would ADDRESS some of the issues that have been -- and continue to 
be -- raised, instead of shrugging their shoulders and saying "we've heard 
it all before," some progress might be achieved.

It's YOUR throat.  Each employee, consultant, etc. has to be willing to 
bank their marketability on the product(s) they work with.  And to make 
that decision a prudent one, a person MUST consider not just the technical 
superiority of the product (developer's point of view), but the market's 
perception of it.

One last thought, along the same lines.  Even if Sybase could have competed 
on technical superiority alone (and we don't believe they could have), the 
time for that has long since passed.  That is, now that all the remaining 
players are (or shortly will be) J2EE-compliant, there is no compelling 
reason to purchase one product over another unless that product provides 
you a clear competitive advantage (price, special feature, etc.).  Sybase 
might have a few of those to offer, depending upon your point of view, but 
that never comes into play because the vast majority of the people looking 
for application servers never even SEE Sybase's offering -- due to its lack 
of presence in the market.  Game over, unfortunately.
0
So_Long_Yu
6/14/2001 4:39:28 PM
Roy,

I'm not a Unix/Linux internals guy, but I find it hard to believe it will cost
millions of dollars to port to Linux.  Isn't PB written in C++?  Doesn't Sybase
already have PB Unix ports?  Are they going to spend those saved millions on
marketing?

The point I was trying to make is, Linux is gaining popularity as we speak.
Forcing Windows PB developers (who want to move to Linux and not Solaris, AIX or
HP-UX) to start using Java will remove the Sybase (i.e. PB) handcuffs.  These
people will no longer be tied to PB and Sybase.  I guess that's a calculated
risk Sybase is willing to make.  Keep in mind, developers don't make application
server buy decisions, "informed" executives who read trade rags, without
EAServer advertising, make those decisions.

Try this snare: One of these "informed" executives just read an article touting
Linux and decides that's the way to go; the developers inform this person that
PB isn't supported on Linux and a migration to Linux would mean porting to Java;
the "informed" executive says OK - let's port to Java and move to WebLogic or
WebSphere.  Bye bye Sybase.  At this point, mustering up demand for a PB Linux
port will be futile.  A proactive approach is always more effective than a
reactive approach (management 101).

IBM offers FREE developer versions of WebSphere.  Sybase used to provide a
developers version of EAServer for free.  I guess Sybase had another brainstorm
when they decided to start charging for it.

Obviously, this logic isn't very obvious.  I know you'll be happy to hear this,
and I hate to say it (because I really like PB/EAServer), once ported to Java -
bye bye Sybase (IBM is waiting with open arms).

I've said enough.

Dave

"Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:

> David,
>
> Get enough people that share your point of view and you may get Sybase to
> change their mind -- the decision not to port PB to Linux was primarilly
> based on demand, which apparently is not there yet, at least not in numbers
> that could justify spending the millions of $s it would cost to do so.
>
> Vote soon, vote often...
>
> --
> <hopethishelps />
> Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
>
> "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> news:3B286882.87C3C6DD@prescriber.com...
> > An additional two cents...
> >
> > Sybase has decided NOT to port PB to Linux.  So, there is no transition
> path for
> > those of us who are fed up with Windows on Intel, but who would like to
> stay with
> > Intel.  The reason given, "Java will be the development platform of choice
> on
> > Linux".  If I have to port my PB components to Java in order to run on
> Linux, I am
> > no longer tied to EAServer (since it's the only application server that
> supports
> > the PBVM).  The decision makers at Sybase may not think so, but they're
> providing,
> > if not encouraging, a migration away from Sybase products for those long
> time PB
> > developers (which, I would imagine, is most of your customer base).
> Windows is
> > fine for in-house applications of small to medium size, but Unix/Linux is
> the way
> > to go for industrial strength web applications.  I know this, I'm not
> comfortable
> > deploying an ASP application, that potentially could be taking hundreds of
> > thousands of hits, on Windows.  I don't care what Microsoft says about
> Windows
> > 2000, I don't believe it can hack it (I'm not real interested in
> clustering 10+
> > machines).  In addition, I just don't know what to think about PB/EAServer
> for
> > Solaris, AIX and HP-UX.  They just don't seem to be getting much air play
> on the
> > newsgroups.  I'll deploy Apache/Tomcat/Jarkarta on Linux as a web server
> on the
> > front end and put my Oracle database on Linux on the back end.  It sure
> would be
> > nice to know I could deploy PB/EAServer on Linux in the middle.
> >
> > Let's face facts, probably 98% of PB/EAServer developers are Windows/Intel
> based.
> > That's where they must stay if they want to stick with PB and Intel.
> >
> > Don't get me wrong, I'm a long time PB developer who has migrated a Web.PB
> > application to EAServer.  I'm ready to migrate to Linux.  Again, If I'm
> forced to
> > port to Java, a whole new world opens up.  Since Sybase doesn't actively
> market
> > EAServer, no one asks or knows about EAServer.  Everyone asks about
> WebLogic and
> > WebSphere.  I don't know who makes the decisions at Sybase, but they're
> dropping
> > the ball big time.  I keep hearing how Sybase is getting there act
> together, but
> > nothing has changed.  PB and EAServer are outstanding products.  The
> technical
> > people behind these products should be proud.  Wish I could say the same
> for Sybase
> > marketing.
> >
> > Well, I guess that was about 10 cents worth...
> >
> > "Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> >
> > > >>Here's the latest: Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just
> released
> > > >>PowerBuilder 8  today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you
> can't
> > > >>actually GET it  now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is
> > > available.
> > > Well its kind of nice to know in advance so you can build into your
> project
> > > plans when you will migrate and who will be involved etc. How long did
> > > microsoft make us to wait for win95????
> > >
> > > >>Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the PowerBuilder
> > > >>upgrade?!
> > > Sybase are a profit organisation and if PB8 is such a good product (
> which I
> > > believe it will be ) then they deserve to reap the rewards from it. I
> would
> > > imagine that if you developed a good product you would want some money
> for it?
> > > I don't imagine development tools for Oracle, BEA or IBM come cheap
> either.
> > >
> > > >>Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one
> of
> > > >>you.  Give it up.
> > > Well I admit to being a sybase defender and attacker. I think they have
> a great
> > > suite of products and they certainly have proven themselves over the
> years. EAS
> > > is a superb product. On the other hand I agree that marketing and
> support need
> > > some polishing, but those facts alone are not good enough reasons to
> give up on
> > > solid development tools.
> > >
> > > >>if you really think you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then
> you must
> > > >>figure it will be through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing
> out how
> > > they >>can leverage PB within EA Server.
> > > I agree with you on this but you're just bringing up what has been
> discussed (
> > > in a better tone ) on many occasions before.
> > >
> > > Best of luck
> > >
> > > A.
> > >
> > > So_Long_Yu wrote:
> > >
> > > > Bleak at best, given the typical Sybase mismanagement of product
> marketing,
> > > > customer service, etc.
> > > >
> > > > Here's the latest:
> > > > Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released PowerBuilder 8
> > > > today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't actually GET
> it
> > > > now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is available.
> > > >
> > > > Now that's interesting -- the product is released, but not available.
> > > > Clever.
> > > >
> > > > Oh, and all you EA Studio customers -- guess what else Sybase has come
> up
> > > > with?  Despite the fact that PowerBuilder is a part of EA Studio, and
> > > > despite the fact that you may be an EA Studio and EA Server customer,
> you
> > > > are NOT entitled to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade!  Yep, you got it.
> This is
> > > > even better than it sounds, because many of you, like us, were
> originally
> > > > PowerBuilder Enterprise customers, and then Sybase came along and
> > > > AUTOMATICALLY upgraded you to be EA Studio customers (when PB 7 came
> out).
> > > > Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the PowerBuilder
> > > > upgrade?!
> > > >
> > > > Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one
> of
> > > > you.  Give it up.  Spare us the typically excuses and finger pointing
> about
> > > > why all of this is actually OUR fault or why this is actually a GOOD
> thing
> > > > for us or why we should be the one marketing your freaking product
> because
> > > > it will be more believable coming from us.  You have continually SH*T
> on
> > > > your customers.  At this point it doesn't even matter how good or bad
> the
> > > > product is.  It doesn't matter that there happen to be a few good
> Sybase
> > > > engineers who do what they can in this and other newsgroups to help
> out.
> > > > You are so far behind in the application server market that it just
> doesn't
> > > > matter anyway.  That battle was lost a long time ago; if you really
> think
> > > > you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must figure it
> will be
> > > > through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how they can
> leverage
> > > > PB within EA Server.  Problem is, you can't piss off those customers
> FAST
> > > > enough, apparently.  So now you've come up with another w
> > > > ay to do it.
> > > >
> > > > Folks, do yourselves a favor:
> > > > http://developer.bea.com/index.jsp
> > > > http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/
> > >
> > > --
> > > __________________________
> > >
> > > Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
> > > System Architect
> > > ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
> > > The University of Sydney
> > > Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
> > > Mobile: +61 403 341 474
> > > Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711
> >

0
David
6/14/2001 4:50:58 PM
I'm wondering where you received your information of PB8?

--
Dean Jones TeamSybase
PowerTeam, Inc.
www.powerobjects.com
WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
Come visit our booth at TechWave
EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar


<So_Long_Yu> wrote in message
news:5A6E3AA3D3FACC35005F3E7685256A6A.0046863285256A65@webforums...
> Bleak at best, given the typical Sybase mismanagement of product
marketing,
> customer service, etc.
>
> Here's the latest:
> Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released PowerBuilder 8
> today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't actually GET it
> now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is available.
>
> Now that's interesting -- the product is released, but not available.
> Clever.
>
> Oh, and all you EA Studio customers -- guess what else Sybase has come up
> with?  Despite the fact that PowerBuilder is a part of EA Studio, and
> despite the fact that you may be an EA Studio and EA Server customer, you
> are NOT entitled to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade!  Yep, you got it.  This is
> even better than it sounds, because many of you, like us, were originally
> PowerBuilder Enterprise customers, and then Sybase came along and
> AUTOMATICALLY upgraded you to be EA Studio customers (when PB 7 came out).
> Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the PowerBuilder
> upgrade?!
>
> Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one of
> you.  Give it up.  Spare us the typically excuses and finger pointing
about
> why all of this is actually OUR fault or why this is actually a GOOD thing
> for us or why we should be the one marketing your freaking product because
> it will be more believable coming from us.  You have continually SH*T on
> your customers.  At this point it doesn't even matter how good or bad the
> product is.  It doesn't matter that there happen to be a few good Sybase
> engineers who do what they can in this and other newsgroups to help out.
> You are so far behind in the application server market that it just
doesn't
> matter anyway.  That battle was lost a long time ago; if you really think
> you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must figure it will be
> through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how they can
leverage
> PB within EA Server.  Problem is, you can't piss off those customers FAST
> enough, apparently.  So now you've come up with another w
> ay to do it.
>
> Folks, do yourselves a favor:
> http://developer.bea.com/index.jsp
> http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/
>


0
Dean
6/14/2001 7:00:59 PM
It is written in C++, but C++ can be written with portability in mind, and
it can be written without. Based on past experience with PB-Unix, Sybase has
used the Wind-U libraries to map Win32 API and MFC code to the equivalent
Unix code. Wind-U did not have Linux support until very recently, and the
only flavors they support right now are RedHat 6.1 and SuSE 6.3.

Yes, Sybase already have ported to Unix, but those are old -- 5.0 and 6.0. I
don't know exactly how much it cost to port PB5 and 6 to Unix, but it'll
cost much more to port 7.0 and 8.0 to Linux, with all the new features and
Jaguar integration.

I agree with you 100% that Linux is gaining popularity, but if Sybase can't
secure enough sales from this port, then it's not worth their investment. As
I said, it's all about demand.

--
<hopethishelps />
Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231

"David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
news:3B28EB72.2141CA67@prescriber.com...
> Roy,
>
> I'm not a Unix/Linux internals guy, but I find it hard to believe it will
cost
> millions of dollars to port to Linux.  Isn't PB written in C++?  Doesn't
Sybase
> already have PB Unix ports?  Are they going to spend those saved millions
on
> marketing?
>
> The point I was trying to make is, Linux is gaining popularity as we
speak.
> Forcing Windows PB developers (who want to move to Linux and not Solaris,
AIX or
> HP-UX) to start using Java will remove the Sybase (i.e. PB) handcuffs.
These
> people will no longer be tied to PB and Sybase.  I guess that's a
calculated
> risk Sybase is willing to make.  Keep in mind, developers don't make
application
> server buy decisions, "informed" executives who read trade rags, without
> EAServer advertising, make those decisions.
>
> Try this snare: One of these "informed" executives just read an article
touting
> Linux and decides that's the way to go; the developers inform this person
that
> PB isn't supported on Linux and a migration to Linux would mean porting to
Java;
> the "informed" executive says OK - let's port to Java and move to WebLogic
or
> WebSphere.  Bye bye Sybase.  At this point, mustering up demand for a PB
Linux
> port will be futile.  A proactive approach is always more effective than a
> reactive approach (management 101).
>
> IBM offers FREE developer versions of WebSphere.  Sybase used to provide a
> developers version of EAServer for free.  I guess Sybase had another
brainstorm
> when they decided to start charging for it.
>
> Obviously, this logic isn't very obvious.  I know you'll be happy to hear
this,
> and I hate to say it (because I really like PB/EAServer), once ported to
Java -
> bye bye Sybase (IBM is waiting with open arms).
>
> I've said enough.
>
> Dave
>
> "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:
>
> > David,
> >
> > Get enough people that share your point of view and you may get Sybase
to
> > change their mind -- the decision not to port PB to Linux was primarilly
> > based on demand, which apparently is not there yet, at least not in
numbers
> > that could justify spending the millions of $s it would cost to do so.
> >
> > Vote soon, vote often...
> >
> > --
> > <hopethishelps />
> > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
> >
> > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > news:3B286882.87C3C6DD@prescriber.com...
> > > An additional two cents...
> > >
> > > Sybase has decided NOT to port PB to Linux.  So, there is no
transition
> > path for
> > > those of us who are fed up with Windows on Intel, but who would like
to
> > stay with
> > > Intel.  The reason given, "Java will be the development platform of
choice
> > on
> > > Linux".  If I have to port my PB components to Java in order to run on
> > Linux, I am
> > > no longer tied to EAServer (since it's the only application server
that
> > supports
> > > the PBVM).  The decision makers at Sybase may not think so, but
they're
> > providing,
> > > if not encouraging, a migration away from Sybase products for those
long
> > time PB
> > > developers (which, I would imagine, is most of your customer base).
> > Windows is
> > > fine for in-house applications of small to medium size, but Unix/Linux
is
> > the way
> > > to go for industrial strength web applications.  I know this, I'm not
> > comfortable
> > > deploying an ASP application, that potentially could be taking
hundreds of
> > > thousands of hits, on Windows.  I don't care what Microsoft says about
> > Windows
> > > 2000, I don't believe it can hack it (I'm not real interested in
> > clustering 10+
> > > machines).  In addition, I just don't know what to think about
PB/EAServer
> > for
> > > Solaris, AIX and HP-UX.  They just don't seem to be getting much air
play
> > on the
> > > newsgroups.  I'll deploy Apache/Tomcat/Jarkarta on Linux as a web
server
> > on the
> > > front end and put my Oracle database on Linux on the back end.  It
sure
> > would be
> > > nice to know I could deploy PB/EAServer on Linux in the middle.
> > >
> > > Let's face facts, probably 98% of PB/EAServer developers are
Windows/Intel
> > based.
> > > That's where they must stay if they want to stick with PB and Intel.
> > >
> > > Don't get me wrong, I'm a long time PB developer who has migrated a
Web.PB
> > > application to EAServer.  I'm ready to migrate to Linux.  Again, If
I'm
> > forced to
> > > port to Java, a whole new world opens up.  Since Sybase doesn't
actively
> > market
> > > EAServer, no one asks or knows about EAServer.  Everyone asks about
> > WebLogic and
> > > WebSphere.  I don't know who makes the decisions at Sybase, but
they're
> > dropping
> > > the ball big time.  I keep hearing how Sybase is getting there act
> > together, but
> > > nothing has changed.  PB and EAServer are outstanding products.  The
> > technical
> > > people behind these products should be proud.  Wish I could say the
same
> > for Sybase
> > > marketing.
> > >
> > > Well, I guess that was about 10 cents worth...
> > >
> > > "Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> > >
> > > > >>Here's the latest: Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just
> > released
> > > > >>PowerBuilder 8  today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way,
you
> > can't
> > > > >>actually GET it  now, but we sure did want to let you know that it
is
> > > > available.
> > > > Well its kind of nice to know in advance so you can build into your
> > project
> > > > plans when you will migrate and who will be involved etc. How long
did
> > > > microsoft make us to wait for win95????
> > > >
> > > > >>Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the
PowerBuilder
> > > > >>upgrade?!
> > > > Sybase are a profit organisation and if PB8 is such a good product (
> > which I
> > > > believe it will be ) then they deserve to reap the rewards from it.
I
> > would
> > > > imagine that if you developed a good product you would want some
money
> > for it?
> > > > I don't imagine development tools for Oracle, BEA or IBM come cheap
> > either.
> > > >
> > > > >>Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be
one
> > of
> > > > >>you.  Give it up.
> > > > Well I admit to being a sybase defender and attacker. I think they
have
> > a great
> > > > suite of products and they certainly have proven themselves over the
> > years. EAS
> > > > is a superb product. On the other hand I agree that marketing and
> > support need
> > > > some polishing, but those facts alone are not good enough reasons to
> > give up on
> > > > solid development tools.
> > > >
> > > > >>if you really think you are going to compete with BEA and IBM,
then
> > you must
> > > > >>figure it will be through attracting PowerBuilder shops by
pointing
> > out how
> > > > they >>can leverage PB within EA Server.
> > > > I agree with you on this but you're just bringing up what has been
> > discussed (
> > > > in a better tone ) on many occasions before.
> > > >
> > > > Best of luck
> > > >
> > > > A.
> > > >
> > > > So_Long_Yu wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Bleak at best, given the typical Sybase mismanagement of product
> > marketing,
> > > > > customer service, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's the latest:
> > > > > Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released
PowerBuilder 8
> > > > > today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't actually
GET
> > it
> > > > > now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is available.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now that's interesting -- the product is released, but not
available.
> > > > > Clever.
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, and all you EA Studio customers -- guess what else Sybase has
come
> > up
> > > > > with?  Despite the fact that PowerBuilder is a part of EA Studio,
and
> > > > > despite the fact that you may be an EA Studio and EA Server
customer,
> > you
> > > > > are NOT entitled to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade!  Yep, you got it.
> > This is
> > > > > even better than it sounds, because many of you, like us, were
> > originally
> > > > > PowerBuilder Enterprise customers, and then Sybase came along and
> > > > > AUTOMATICALLY upgraded you to be EA Studio customers (when PB 7
came
> > out).
> > > > > Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the
PowerBuilder
> > > > > upgrade?!
> > > > >
> > > > > Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be
one
> > of
> > > > > you.  Give it up.  Spare us the typically excuses and finger
pointing
> > about
> > > > > why all of this is actually OUR fault or why this is actually a
GOOD
> > thing
> > > > > for us or why we should be the one marketing your freaking product
> > because
> > > > > it will be more believable coming from us.  You have continually
SH*T
> > on
> > > > > your customers.  At this point it doesn't even matter how good or
bad
> > the
> > > > > product is.  It doesn't matter that there happen to be a few good
> > Sybase
> > > > > engineers who do what they can in this and other newsgroups to
help
> > out.
> > > > > You are so far behind in the application server market that it
just
> > doesn't
> > > > > matter anyway.  That battle was lost a long time ago; if you
really
> > think
> > > > > you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must figure it
> > will be
> > > > > through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how they can
> > leverage
> > > > > PB within EA Server.  Problem is, you can't piss off those
customers
> > FAST
> > > > > enough, apparently.  So now you've come up with another w
> > > > > ay to do it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Folks, do yourselves a favor:
> > > > > http://developer.bea.com/index.jsp
> > > > > http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > __________________________
> > > >
> > > > Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
> > > > System Architect
> > > > ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
> > > > The University of Sydney
> > > > Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
> > > > Mobile: +61 403 341 474
> > > > Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711
> > >
>


0
Roy
6/14/2001 7:01:53 PM
Just my 2 cents...

My company sells Sybase tools and EAServer. On every contract we are dealing
with WebLogic, WebSphere and EAServer are involved. Believe me, customers
know who Sybase is and what EAServer is.

I believe many companies are starting to build web applications using
application servers. Companies will determine what works best for their
organization. EAServer, PB and PowerJ are powerful tools developing
applications quickly and efficiently.

We educate customer and let them decide what tool is best. Personally I feel
companies can develop application better and fast using Sybase tools. You
obviously feel the same or you would not want Sybase tools ported to other
platforms.

--
Dean Jones TeamSybase
PowerTeam, Inc.
www.powerobjects.com
WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
Come visit our booth at TechWave
EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar


"David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
news:3B286882.87C3C6DD@prescriber.com...
> An additional two cents...
>
> Sybase has decided NOT to port PB to Linux.  So, there is no transition
path for
> those of us who are fed up with Windows on Intel, but who would like to
stay with
> Intel.  The reason given, "Java will be the development platform of choice
on
> Linux".  If I have to port my PB components to Java in order to run on
Linux, I am
> no longer tied to EAServer (since it's the only application server that
supports
> the PBVM).  The decision makers at Sybase may not think so, but they're
providing,
> if not encouraging, a migration away from Sybase products for those long
time PB
> developers (which, I would imagine, is most of your customer base).
Windows is
> fine for in-house applications of small to medium size, but Unix/Linux is
the way
> to go for industrial strength web applications.  I know this, I'm not
comfortable
> deploying an ASP application, that potentially could be taking hundreds of
> thousands of hits, on Windows.  I don't care what Microsoft says about
Windows
> 2000, I don't believe it can hack it (I'm not real interested in
clustering 10+
> machines).  In addition, I just don't know what to think about PB/EAServer
for
> Solaris, AIX and HP-UX.  They just don't seem to be getting much air play
on the
> newsgroups.  I'll deploy Apache/Tomcat/Jarkarta on Linux as a web server
on the
> front end and put my Oracle database on Linux on the back end.  It sure
would be
> nice to know I could deploy PB/EAServer on Linux in the middle.
>
> Let's face facts, probably 98% of PB/EAServer developers are Windows/Intel
based.
> That's where they must stay if they want to stick with PB and Intel.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I'm a long time PB developer who has migrated a Web.PB
> application to EAServer.  I'm ready to migrate to Linux.  Again, If I'm
forced to
> port to Java, a whole new world opens up.  Since Sybase doesn't actively
market
> EAServer, no one asks or knows about EAServer.  Everyone asks about
WebLogic and
> WebSphere.  I don't know who makes the decisions at Sybase, but they're
dropping
> the ball big time.  I keep hearing how Sybase is getting there act
together, but
> nothing has changed.  PB and EAServer are outstanding products.  The
technical
> people behind these products should be proud.  Wish I could say the same
for Sybase
> marketing.
>
> Well, I guess that was about 10 cents worth...
>
> "Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]" wrote:
>
> > >>Here's the latest: Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just
released
> > >>PowerBuilder 8  today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you
can't
> > >>actually GET it  now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is
> > available.
> > Well its kind of nice to know in advance so you can build into your
project
> > plans when you will migrate and who will be involved etc. How long did
> > microsoft make us to wait for win95????
> >
> > >>Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the PowerBuilder
> > >>upgrade?!
> > Sybase are a profit organisation and if PB8 is such a good product (
which I
> > believe it will be ) then they deserve to reap the rewards from it. I
would
> > imagine that if you developed a good product you would want some money
for it?
> > I don't imagine development tools for Oracle, BEA or IBM come cheap
either.
> >
> > >>Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one
of
> > >>you.  Give it up.
> > Well I admit to being a sybase defender and attacker. I think they have
a great
> > suite of products and they certainly have proven themselves over the
years. EAS
> > is a superb product. On the other hand I agree that marketing and
support need
> > some polishing, but those facts alone are not good enough reasons to
give up on
> > solid development tools.
> >
> > >>if you really think you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then
you must
> > >>figure it will be through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing
out how
> > they >>can leverage PB within EA Server.
> > I agree with you on this but you're just bringing up what has been
discussed (
> > in a better tone ) on many occasions before.
> >
> > Best of luck
> >
> > A.
> >
> > So_Long_Yu wrote:
> >
> > > Bleak at best, given the typical Sybase mismanagement of product
marketing,
> > > customer service, etc.
> > >
> > > Here's the latest:
> > > Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released PowerBuilder 8
> > > today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't actually GET
it
> > > now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is available.
> > >
> > > Now that's interesting -- the product is released, but not available.
> > > Clever.
> > >
> > > Oh, and all you EA Studio customers -- guess what else Sybase has come
up
> > > with?  Despite the fact that PowerBuilder is a part of EA Studio, and
> > > despite the fact that you may be an EA Studio and EA Server customer,
you
> > > are NOT entitled to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade!  Yep, you got it.
This is
> > > even better than it sounds, because many of you, like us, were
originally
> > > PowerBuilder Enterprise customers, and then Sybase came along and
> > > AUTOMATICALLY upgraded you to be EA Studio customers (when PB 7 came
out).
> > > Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the PowerBuilder
> > > upgrade?!
> > >
> > > Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one
of
> > > you.  Give it up.  Spare us the typically excuses and finger pointing
about
> > > why all of this is actually OUR fault or why this is actually a GOOD
thing
> > > for us or why we should be the one marketing your freaking product
because
> > > it will be more believable coming from us.  You have continually SH*T
on
> > > your customers.  At this point it doesn't even matter how good or bad
the
> > > product is.  It doesn't matter that there happen to be a few good
Sybase
> > > engineers who do what they can in this and other newsgroups to help
out.
> > > You are so far behind in the application server market that it just
doesn't
> > > matter anyway.  That battle was lost a long time ago; if you really
think
> > > you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must figure it
will be
> > > through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how they can
leverage
> > > PB within EA Server.  Problem is, you can't piss off those customers
FAST
> > > enough, apparently.  So now you've come up with another w
> > > ay to do it.
> > >
> > > Folks, do yourselves a favor:
> > > http://developer.bea.com/index.jsp
> > > http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/
> >
> > --
> > __________________________
> >
> > Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
> > System Architect
> > ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
> > The University of Sydney
> > Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
> > Mobile: +61 403 341 474
> > Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711
>


0
Dean
6/14/2001 7:11:26 PM
Why because you are writing in java do you have or want to use IBM?  Have
you tested with IBM? Is it because its free <G>. Business rule 102 "There's
no free lunch"

Again I use Sybase tools because I can develop faster and cheaper then with
other tools.

Management making a decision to port to Java is very easy, all they do is
say go ahead and convert. many months later and many $$ later nothing has
been done and your back looking for a solution. A company we work with
selected WebSphere, they took Visual Age java training, the took WebSphere
training, they started their conversion. Now they stopped and are trying to
come up with a new solution. It's too expensive to convert "c" to java and
to expensive to convert PB to java.

The fact is companies need to use an application server that fits the
project. It's foolish to select an application server and programming
language and then make all project fit into the choice.

Here is my analogy: A race team has been racing stock-cars for many years.
Management wants to improve their record so they purchase a new dragster.
Its very expensive but very fast. The biggest race of the year is in 2
months. They now have a very fast dragster and expect to win. The problem is
the race is on an oval track which the dragster does not perform well on and
the racing team has never driven a dragster and have no idea how to start.

--
Dean Jones TeamSybase
PowerTeam, Inc.
www.powerobjects.com
WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
Come visit our booth at TechWave
EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar


"David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
news:3B28EB72.2141CA67@prescriber.com...
> Roy,
>
> I'm not a Unix/Linux internals guy, but I find it hard to believe it will
cost
> millions of dollars to port to Linux.  Isn't PB written in C++?  Doesn't
Sybase
> already have PB Unix ports?  Are they going to spend those saved millions
on
> marketing?
>
> The point I was trying to make is, Linux is gaining popularity as we
speak.
> Forcing Windows PB developers (who want to move to Linux and not Solaris,
AIX or
> HP-UX) to start using Java will remove the Sybase (i.e. PB) handcuffs.
These
> people will no longer be tied to PB and Sybase.  I guess that's a
calculated
> risk Sybase is willing to make.  Keep in mind, developers don't make
application
> server buy decisions, "informed" executives who read trade rags, without
> EAServer advertising, make those decisions.
>
> Try this snare: One of these "informed" executives just read an article
touting
> Linux and decides that's the way to go; the developers inform this person
that
> PB isn't supported on Linux and a migration to Linux would mean porting to
Java;
> the "informed" executive says OK - let's port to Java and move to WebLogic
or
> WebSphere.  Bye bye Sybase.  At this point, mustering up demand for a PB
Linux
> port will be futile.  A proactive approach is always more effective than a
> reactive approach (management 101).
>
> IBM offers FREE developer versions of WebSphere.  Sybase used to provide a
> developers version of EAServer for free.  I guess Sybase had another
brainstorm
> when they decided to start charging for it.
>
> Obviously, this logic isn't very obvious.  I know you'll be happy to hear
this,
> and I hate to say it (because I really like PB/EAServer), once ported to
Java -
> bye bye Sybase (IBM is waiting with open arms).
>
> I've said enough.
>
> Dave
>
> "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:
>
> > David,
> >
> > Get enough people that share your point of view and you may get Sybase
to
> > change their mind -- the decision not to port PB to Linux was primarilly
> > based on demand, which apparently is not there yet, at least not in
numbers
> > that could justify spending the millions of $s it would cost to do so.
> >
> > Vote soon, vote often...
> >
> > --
> > <hopethishelps />
> > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
> >
> > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > news:3B286882.87C3C6DD@prescriber.com...
> > > An additional two cents...
> > >
> > > Sybase has decided NOT to port PB to Linux.  So, there is no
transition
> > path for
> > > those of us who are fed up with Windows on Intel, but who would like
to
> > stay with
> > > Intel.  The reason given, "Java will be the development platform of
choice
> > on
> > > Linux".  If I have to port my PB components to Java in order to run on
> > Linux, I am
> > > no longer tied to EAServer (since it's the only application server
that
> > supports
> > > the PBVM).  The decision makers at Sybase may not think so, but
they're
> > providing,
> > > if not encouraging, a migration away from Sybase products for those
long
> > time PB
> > > developers (which, I would imagine, is most of your customer base).
> > Windows is
> > > fine for in-house applications of small to medium size, but Unix/Linux
is
> > the way
> > > to go for industrial strength web applications.  I know this, I'm not
> > comfortable
> > > deploying an ASP application, that potentially could be taking
hundreds of
> > > thousands of hits, on Windows.  I don't care what Microsoft says about
> > Windows
> > > 2000, I don't believe it can hack it (I'm not real interested in
> > clustering 10+
> > > machines).  In addition, I just don't know what to think about
PB/EAServer
> > for
> > > Solaris, AIX and HP-UX.  They just don't seem to be getting much air
play
> > on the
> > > newsgroups.  I'll deploy Apache/Tomcat/Jarkarta on Linux as a web
server
> > on the
> > > front end and put my Oracle database on Linux on the back end.  It
sure
> > would be
> > > nice to know I could deploy PB/EAServer on Linux in the middle.
> > >
> > > Let's face facts, probably 98% of PB/EAServer developers are
Windows/Intel
> > based.
> > > That's where they must stay if they want to stick with PB and Intel.
> > >
> > > Don't get me wrong, I'm a long time PB developer who has migrated a We
b.PB
> > > application to EAServer.  I'm ready to migrate to Linux.  Again, If
I'm
> > forced to
> > > port to Java, a whole new world opens up.  Since Sybase doesn't
actively
> > market
> > > EAServer, no one asks or knows about EAServer.  Everyone asks about
> > WebLogic and
> > > WebSphere.  I don't know who makes the decisions at Sybase, but
they're
> > dropping
> > > the ball big time.  I keep hearing how Sybase is getting there act
> > together, but
> > > nothing has changed.  PB and EAServer are outstanding products.  The
> > technical
> > > people behind these products should be proud.  Wish I could say the
same
> > for Sybase
> > > marketing.
> > >
> > > Well, I guess that was about 10 cents worth...
> > >
> > > "Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> > >
> > > > >>Here's the latest: Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just
> > released
> > > > >>PowerBuilder 8  today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way,
you
> > can't
> > > > >>actually GET it  now, but we sure did want to let you know that it
is
> > > > available.
> > > > Well its kind of nice to know in advance so you can build into your
> > project
> > > > plans when you will migrate and who will be involved etc. How long
did
> > > > microsoft make us to wait for win95????
> > > >
> > > > >>Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the
PowerBuilder
> > > > >>upgrade?!
> > > > Sybase are a profit organisation and if PB8 is such a good product (
> > which I
> > > > believe it will be ) then they deserve to reap the rewards from it.
I
> > would
> > > > imagine that if you developed a good product you would want some
money
> > for it?
> > > > I don't imagine development tools for Oracle, BEA or IBM come cheap
> > either.
> > > >
> > > > >>Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be
one
> > of
> > > > >>you.  Give it up.
> > > > Well I admit to being a sybase defender and attacker. I think they
have
> > a great
> > > > suite of products and they certainly have proven themselves over the
> > years. EAS
> > > > is a superb product. On the other hand I agree that marketing and
> > support need
> > > > some polishing, but those facts alone are not good enough reasons to
> > give up on
> > > > solid development tools.
> > > >
> > > > >>if you really think you are going to compete with BEA and IBM,
then
> > you must
> > > > >>figure it will be through attracting PowerBuilder shops by
pointing
> > out how
> > > > they >>can leverage PB within EA Server.
> > > > I agree with you on this but you're just bringing up what has been
> > discussed (
> > > > in a better tone ) on many occasions before.
> > > >
> > > > Best of luck
> > > >
> > > > A.
> > > >
> > > > So_Long_Yu wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Bleak at best, given the typical Sybase mismanagement of product
> > marketing,
> > > > > customer service, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's the latest:
> > > > > Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released
PowerBuilder 8
> > > > > today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't actually
GET
> > it
> > > > > now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is available.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now that's interesting -- the product is released, but not
available.
> > > > > Clever.
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, and all you EA Studio customers -- guess what else Sybase has
come
> > up
> > > > > with?  Despite the fact that PowerBuilder is a part of EA Studio,
and
> > > > > despite the fact that you may be an EA Studio and EA Server
customer,
> > you
> > > > > are NOT entitled to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade!  Yep, you got it.
> > This is
> > > > > even better than it sounds, because many of you, like us, were
> > originally
> > > > > PowerBuilder Enterprise customers, and then Sybase came along and
> > > > > AUTOMATICALLY upgraded you to be EA Studio customers (when PB 7
came
> > out).
> > > > > Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the
PowerBuilder
> > > > > upgrade?!
> > > > >
> > > > > Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be
one
> > of
> > > > > you.  Give it up.  Spare us the typically excuses and finger
pointing
> > about
> > > > > why all of this is actually OUR fault or why this is actually a
GOOD
> > thing
> > > > > for us or why we should be the one marketing your freaking product
> > because
> > > > > it will be more believable coming from us.  You have continually
SH*T
> > on
> > > > > your customers.  At this point it doesn't even matter how good or
bad
> > the
> > > > > product is.  It doesn't matter that there happen to be a few good
> > Sybase
> > > > > engineers who do what they can in this and other newsgroups to
help
> > out.
> > > > > You are so far behind in the application server market that it
just
> > doesn't
> > > > > matter anyway.  That battle was lost a long time ago; if you
really
> > think
> > > > > you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must figure it
> > will be
> > > > > through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how they can
> > leverage
> > > > > PB within EA Server.  Problem is, you can't piss off those
customers
> > FAST
> > > > > enough, apparently.  So now you've come up with another w
> > > > > ay to do it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Folks, do yourselves a favor:
> > > > > http://developer.bea.com/index.jsp
> > > > > http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > __________________________
> > > >
> > > > Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
> > > > System Architect
> > > > ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
> > > > The University of Sydney
> > > > Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
> > > > Mobile: +61 403 341 474
> > > > Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711
> > >
>


0
Dean
6/14/2001 7:30:15 PM
I have to as who the "We" is that you keep referring to. What company would
that be?

You obviously like Sybase tools, your here in the forums OR your one of
"those" types that complain about what ever tool you are using. That is if
you were using WebSphere you would be in IBM's forums complaininng about
WebSphere taking too much memory and costing too much.

--
Dean Jones TeamSybase
Sybase Defenders
PowerTeam, Inc.
www.powerobjects.com
WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
Come visit our booth at TechWave
EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar


<So_Long_Yu> wrote in message
news:55B338593D93DC45005B812485256A6B.0014A0D385256A6B@webforums...
> >>>Sybase are a profit organisation and if PB8 is such a good >>>product (
> which I
> >>>believe it will be ) then they deserve to reap the rewards >>>from it.
I
> would
> >>>imagine that if you developed a good product you would want >>>some
> money for it?
> >>>I don't imagine development tools for Oracle, BEA or IBM come >>>cheap
> either.
> First of all you're missing the point.  But since you brought it up,
> believe me -- no one knows better than we do just exactly how well Syba$e
> "reap[s] the rewards from [their products]".
>
> Anyway, in a recent call to Sybase Tech Support, we were told that a
> problem we are experiencing will be resolved in PowerBuilder 8.  Great, we
> thought, but when we expressed concern over how long it would be until we
> could get our hands on it, the rep told us emphatically, don't worry -- it
> will be out in June and probably before the middle of June.  It should be
> pretty clear that an ANNOUNCEMENT of a product will do us no good towards
> resolving a bug in the current version.  Now, either the tech knew about
> the situation and was intentionally bs-ing us, or Sybase has yet again
> failed to keep their customer service / tech support people informed as to
> the plan.
>
> >>>>>Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used
> >>>to be one of
> >>>>>you.  Give it up.
> >>>Well I admit to being a sybase defender and attacker. I think >>>they
> have a great
> >>>suite of products and they certainly have proven themselves >>>over the
> years. EAS
> >>>is a superb product. On the other hand I agree that marketing >>>and
> support need
> >>>some polishing, but those facts alone are not good enough >>>reasons to
> give up on
> >>>solid development tools.
> A) We would argue with you that is EXACTLY these facts that provide the
> reason why many people already HAVE left Sybase in favor of other vendors
> and products.
>
> B) It is NOT just these facts, by the way.  Our opinion, your opinion, or
> the opinion of whomever is irrelevant by itself.  However, the overall
> INDUSTRY's opinion does matter.  And the industry barely even knows what
EA
> Server is.  Go ahead, take the challenge.  Find one MAJOR (minor?) trade
> rag mentioning EA Server.  Of those, how many mention it in a POSITIVE
> light?  Now attempt the same thing for WebSphere, Weblogic, etc.
>
>
> >>>>>if you really think you are going to compete with BEA and >>>IBM,
then
> you must
> >>>>>figure it will be through attracting PowerBuilder shops by
>>>pointing
> out how
> >>>they >>can leverage PB within EA Server.
> >>>I agree with you on this but you're just bringing up what has >>>been
> discussed (
> >>>in a better tone ) on many occasions before.
> Yes, you see.  It's the unhappy customers' TONE that is the cause of all
of
> Sybase's problems.  Thank you for proving that point.  And, the fact that
> something has been brought up before does not reduce its importance
> (despite what Clinton might have tried to convince us of).  Now, maybe if
> Sybase would ADDRESS some of the issues that have been -- and continue to
> be -- raised, instead of shrugging their shoulders and saying "we've heard
> it all before," some progress might be achieved.
>
> It's YOUR throat.  Each employee, consultant, etc. has to be willing to
> bank their marketability on the product(s) they work with.  And to make
> that decision a prudent one, a person MUST consider not just the technical
> superiority of the product (developer's point of view), but the market's
> perception of it.
>
> One last thought, along the same lines.  Even if Sybase could have
competed
> on technical superiority alone (and we don't believe they could have), the
> time for that has long since passed.  That is, now that all the remaining
> players are (or shortly will be) J2EE-compliant, there is no compelling
> reason to purchase one product over another unless that product provides
> you a clear competitive advantage (price, special feature, etc.).  Sybase
> might have a few of those to offer, depending upon your point of view, but
> that never comes into play because the vast majority of the people looking
> for application servers never even SEE Sybase's offering -- due to its
lack
> of presence in the market.  Game over, unfortunately.


0
Dean
6/14/2001 7:39:08 PM
I understand the demand side of the equation.  How does Sybase gauge demand for
a particular port - newsgroup posts, account rep feedback or what?

I still argue that Sybase is taking a calculated risk?  Again, if I'm migrating
to Linux and forced to port to Java, a whole new world opens up for me as a
developer.  This is a two part problem.  Decision makers are unfamiliar with
EAServer and Java opens up a migration path away from EAServer (at least for PB
shops).  It wouldn't be so bad if the general IT world knew about EAServer.

RedHat 6.1 and SuSE 6.3 would be a good starting point.  Sybase chose not to
port to all flavors of Unix.  Likewise, they don't have to port to all flavors
of Linux.  It's just my opinion (and maybe I'm way out in left field - wouldn't
be the first time) but, I believe, Sybase is risking loosing PB developers to
Java, which isn't a bad thing for developers.  It is a potentially bad thing for
Sybase, based on EAServer's industry status.

Look, I'm a developer, but I've been around long enough to know how most buy
decisions are made.  Most CIOs, CTOs, etc. rarely solicit developers feedback
when making the buy decision (to most of these people, developers are a lower
form of life).  When they do solicit feedback, they usually keep asking until
someone agrees with what they've already decided.  Just my experience.  These
people are conservative by nature and are busy covering their back sides.  I
hate to keep regurgitating this old saying but, "No one has ever been fired for
buying IBM" (I use this as a metaphor - not as an endorsement for IBM).  Sad to
say, that's basically the CIO credo.

I consult and have found little interest/knowledge of EAServer.  Everyone asks
about WebSphere and WebLogic.  If I'm now a Java developer I can start saying
"Yes, I can do that".

"Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:

> It is written in C++, but C++ can be written with portability in mind, and
> it can be written without. Based on past experience with PB-Unix, Sybase has
> used the Wind-U libraries to map Win32 API and MFC code to the equivalent
> Unix code. Wind-U did not have Linux support until very recently, and the
> only flavors they support right now are RedHat 6.1 and SuSE 6.3.
>
> Yes, Sybase already have ported to Unix, but those are old -- 5.0 and 6.0. I
> don't know exactly how much it cost to port PB5 and 6 to Unix, but it'll
> cost much more to port 7.0 and 8.0 to Linux, with all the new features and
> Jaguar integration.
>
> I agree with you 100% that Linux is gaining popularity, but if Sybase can't
> secure enough sales from this port, then it's not worth their investment. As
> I said, it's all about demand.
>
> --
> <hopethishelps />
> Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
>
> "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> news:3B28EB72.2141CA67@prescriber.com...
> > Roy,
> >
> > I'm not a Unix/Linux internals guy, but I find it hard to believe it will
> cost
> > millions of dollars to port to Linux.  Isn't PB written in C++?  Doesn't
> Sybase
> > already have PB Unix ports?  Are they going to spend those saved millions
> on
> > marketing?
> >
> > The point I was trying to make is, Linux is gaining popularity as we
> speak.
> > Forcing Windows PB developers (who want to move to Linux and not Solaris,
> AIX or
> > HP-UX) to start using Java will remove the Sybase (i.e. PB) handcuffs.
> These
> > people will no longer be tied to PB and Sybase.  I guess that's a
> calculated
> > risk Sybase is willing to make.  Keep in mind, developers don't make
> application
> > server buy decisions, "informed" executives who read trade rags, without
> > EAServer advertising, make those decisions.
> >
> > Try this snare: One of these "informed" executives just read an article
> touting
> > Linux and decides that's the way to go; the developers inform this person
> that
> > PB isn't supported on Linux and a migration to Linux would mean porting to
> Java;
> > the "informed" executive says OK - let's port to Java and move to WebLogic
> or
> > WebSphere.  Bye bye Sybase.  At this point, mustering up demand for a PB
> Linux
> > port will be futile.  A proactive approach is always more effective than a
> > reactive approach (management 101).
> >
> > IBM offers FREE developer versions of WebSphere.  Sybase used to provide a
> > developers version of EAServer for free.  I guess Sybase had another
> brainstorm
> > when they decided to start charging for it.
> >
> > Obviously, this logic isn't very obvious.  I know you'll be happy to hear
> this,
> > and I hate to say it (because I really like PB/EAServer), once ported to
> Java -
> > bye bye Sybase (IBM is waiting with open arms).
> >
> > I've said enough.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> >
> > > David,
> > >
> > > Get enough people that share your point of view and you may get Sybase
> to
> > > change their mind -- the decision not to port PB to Linux was primarilly
> > > based on demand, which apparently is not there yet, at least not in
> numbers
> > > that could justify spending the millions of $s it would cost to do so.
> > >
> > > Vote soon, vote often...
> > >
> > > --
> > > <hopethishelps />
> > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > > http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
> > >
> > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3B286882.87C3C6DD@prescriber.com...
> > > > An additional two cents...
> > > >
> > > > Sybase has decided NOT to port PB to Linux.  So, there is no
> transition
> > > path for
> > > > those of us who are fed up with Windows on Intel, but who would like
> to
> > > stay with
> > > > Intel.  The reason given, "Java will be the development platform of
> choice
> > > on
> > > > Linux".  If I have to port my PB components to Java in order to run on
> > > Linux, I am
> > > > no longer tied to EAServer (since it's the only application server
> that
> > > supports
> > > > the PBVM).  The decision makers at Sybase may not think so, but
> they're
> > > providing,
> > > > if not encouraging, a migration away from Sybase products for those
> long
> > > time PB
> > > > developers (which, I would imagine, is most of your customer base).
> > > Windows is
> > > > fine for in-house applications of small to medium size, but Unix/Linux
> is
> > > the way
> > > > to go for industrial strength web applications.  I know this, I'm not
> > > comfortable
> > > > deploying an ASP application, that potentially could be taking
> hundreds of
> > > > thousands of hits, on Windows.  I don't care what Microsoft says about
> > > Windows
> > > > 2000, I don't believe it can hack it (I'm not real interested in
> > > clustering 10+
> > > > machines).  In addition, I just don't know what to think about
> PB/EAServer
> > > for
> > > > Solaris, AIX and HP-UX.  They just don't seem to be getting much air
> play
> > > on the
> > > > newsgroups.  I'll deploy Apache/Tomcat/Jarkarta on Linux as a web
> server
> > > on the
> > > > front end and put my Oracle database on Linux on the back end.  It
> sure
> > > would be
> > > > nice to know I could deploy PB/EAServer on Linux in the middle.
> > > >
> > > > Let's face facts, probably 98% of PB/EAServer developers are
> Windows/Intel
> > > based.
> > > > That's where they must stay if they want to stick with PB and Intel.
> > > >
> > > > Don't get me wrong, I'm a long time PB developer who has migrated a
> Web.PB
> > > > application to EAServer.  I'm ready to migrate to Linux.  Again, If
> I'm
> > > forced to
> > > > port to Java, a whole new world opens up.  Since Sybase doesn't
> actively
> > > market
> > > > EAServer, no one asks or knows about EAServer.  Everyone asks about
> > > WebLogic and
> > > > WebSphere.  I don't know who makes the decisions at Sybase, but
> they're
> > > dropping
> > > > the ball big time.  I keep hearing how Sybase is getting there act
> > > together, but
> > > > nothing has changed.  PB and EAServer are outstanding products.  The
> > > technical
> > > > people behind these products should be proud.  Wish I could say the
> same
> > > for Sybase
> > > > marketing.
> > > >
> > > > Well, I guess that was about 10 cents worth...
> > > >
> > > > "Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > >>Here's the latest: Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just
> > > released
> > > > > >>PowerBuilder 8  today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way,
> you
> > > can't
> > > > > >>actually GET it  now, but we sure did want to let you know that it
> is
> > > > > available.
> > > > > Well its kind of nice to know in advance so you can build into your
> > > project
> > > > > plans when you will migrate and who will be involved etc. How long
> did
> > > > > microsoft make us to wait for win95????
> > > > >
> > > > > >>Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the
> PowerBuilder
> > > > > >>upgrade?!
> > > > > Sybase are a profit organisation and if PB8 is such a good product (
> > > which I
> > > > > believe it will be ) then they deserve to reap the rewards from it.
> I
> > > would
> > > > > imagine that if you developed a good product you would want some
> money
> > > for it?
> > > > > I don't imagine development tools for Oracle, BEA or IBM come cheap
> > > either.
> > > > >
> > > > > >>Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be
> one
> > > of
> > > > > >>you.  Give it up.
> > > > > Well I admit to being a sybase defender and attacker. I think they
> have
> > > a great
> > > > > suite of products and they certainly have proven themselves over the
> > > years. EAS
> > > > > is a superb product. On the other hand I agree that marketing and
> > > support need
> > > > > some polishing, but those facts alone are not good enough reasons to
> > > give up on
> > > > > solid development tools.
> > > > >
> > > > > >>if you really think you are going to compete with BEA and IBM,
> then
> > > you must
> > > > > >>figure it will be through attracting PowerBuilder shops by
> pointing
> > > out how
> > > > > they >>can leverage PB within EA Server.
> > > > > I agree with you on this but you're just bringing up what has been
> > > discussed (
> > > > > in a better tone ) on many occasions before.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best of luck
> > > > >
> > > > > A.
> > > > >
> > > > > So_Long_Yu wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Bleak at best, given the typical Sybase mismanagement of product
> > > marketing,
> > > > > > customer service, etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here's the latest:
> > > > > > Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released
> PowerBuilder 8
> > > > > > today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't actually
> GET
> > > it
> > > > > > now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is available.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now that's interesting -- the product is released, but not
> available.
> > > > > > Clever.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oh, and all you EA Studio customers -- guess what else Sybase has
> come
> > > up
> > > > > > with?  Despite the fact that PowerBuilder is a part of EA Studio,
> and
> > > > > > despite the fact that you may be an EA Studio and EA Server
> customer,
> > > you
> > > > > > are NOT entitled to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade!  Yep, you got it.
> > > This is
> > > > > > even better than it sounds, because many of you, like us, were
> > > originally
> > > > > > PowerBuilder Enterprise customers, and then Sybase came along and
> > > > > > AUTOMATICALLY upgraded you to be EA Studio customers (when PB 7
> came
> > > out).
> > > > > > Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the
> PowerBuilder
> > > > > > upgrade?!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be
> one
> > > of
> > > > > > you.  Give it up.  Spare us the typically excuses and finger
> pointing
> > > about
> > > > > > why all of this is actually OUR fault or why this is actually a
> GOOD
> > > thing
> > > > > > for us or why we should be the one marketing your freaking product
> > > because
> > > > > > it will be more believable coming from us.  You have continually
> SH*T
> > > on
> > > > > > your customers.  At this point it doesn't even matter how good or
> bad
> > > the
> > > > > > product is.  It doesn't matter that there happen to be a few good
> > > Sybase
> > > > > > engineers who do what they can in this and other newsgroups to
> help
> > > out.
> > > > > > You are so far behind in the application server market that it
> just
> > > doesn't
> > > > > > matter anyway.  That battle was lost a long time ago; if you
> really
> > > think
> > > > > > you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must figure it
> > > will be
> > > > > > through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how they can
> > > leverage
> > > > > > PB within EA Server.  Problem is, you can't piss off those
> customers
> > > FAST
> > > > > > enough, apparently.  So now you've come up with another w
> > > > > > ay to do it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Folks, do yourselves a favor:
> > > > > > http://developer.bea.com/index.jsp
> > > > > > http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > __________________________
> > > > >
> > > > > Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
> > > > > System Architect
> > > > > ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
> > > > > The University of Sydney
> > > > > Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
> > > > > Mobile: +61 403 341 474
> > > > > Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711
> > > >
> >

0
David
6/14/2001 7:54:34 PM
I agree 100%.

"Dean Jones [TeamSybase]" wrote:

> Just my 2 cents...
>
> My company sells Sybase tools and EAServer. On every contract we are dealing
> with WebLogic, WebSphere and EAServer are involved. Believe me, customers
> know who Sybase is and what EAServer is.
>
> I believe many companies are starting to build web applications using
> application servers. Companies will determine what works best for their
> organization. EAServer, PB and PowerJ are powerful tools developing
> applications quickly and efficiently.
>
> We educate customer and let them decide what tool is best. Personally I feel
> companies can develop application better and fast using Sybase tools. You
> obviously feel the same or you would not want Sybase tools ported to other
> platforms.
>
> --
> Dean Jones TeamSybase
> PowerTeam, Inc.
> www.powerobjects.com
> WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
> Come visit our booth at TechWave
> EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar
>
> "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> news:3B286882.87C3C6DD@prescriber.com...
> > An additional two cents...
> >
> > Sybase has decided NOT to port PB to Linux.  So, there is no transition
> path for
> > those of us who are fed up with Windows on Intel, but who would like to
> stay with
> > Intel.  The reason given, "Java will be the development platform of choice
> on
> > Linux".  If I have to port my PB components to Java in order to run on
> Linux, I am
> > no longer tied to EAServer (since it's the only application server that
> supports
> > the PBVM).  The decision makers at Sybase may not think so, but they're
> providing,
> > if not encouraging, a migration away from Sybase products for those long
> time PB
> > developers (which, I would imagine, is most of your customer base).
> Windows is
> > fine for in-house applications of small to medium size, but Unix/Linux is
> the way
> > to go for industrial strength web applications.  I know this, I'm not
> comfortable
> > deploying an ASP application, that potentially could be taking hundreds of
> > thousands of hits, on Windows.  I don't care what Microsoft says about
> Windows
> > 2000, I don't believe it can hack it (I'm not real interested in
> clustering 10+
> > machines).  In addition, I just don't know what to think about PB/EAServer
> for
> > Solaris, AIX and HP-UX.  They just don't seem to be getting much air play
> on the
> > newsgroups.  I'll deploy Apache/Tomcat/Jarkarta on Linux as a web server
> on the
> > front end and put my Oracle database on Linux on the back end.  It sure
> would be
> > nice to know I could deploy PB/EAServer on Linux in the middle.
> >
> > Let's face facts, probably 98% of PB/EAServer developers are Windows/Intel
> based.
> > That's where they must stay if they want to stick with PB and Intel.
> >
> > Don't get me wrong, I'm a long time PB developer who has migrated a Web.PB
> > application to EAServer.  I'm ready to migrate to Linux.  Again, If I'm
> forced to
> > port to Java, a whole new world opens up.  Since Sybase doesn't actively
> market
> > EAServer, no one asks or knows about EAServer.  Everyone asks about
> WebLogic and
> > WebSphere.  I don't know who makes the decisions at Sybase, but they're
> dropping
> > the ball big time.  I keep hearing how Sybase is getting there act
> together, but
> > nothing has changed.  PB and EAServer are outstanding products.  The
> technical
> > people behind these products should be proud.  Wish I could say the same
> for Sybase
> > marketing.
> >
> > Well, I guess that was about 10 cents worth...
> >
> > "Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> >
> > > >>Here's the latest: Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just
> released
> > > >>PowerBuilder 8  today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you
> can't
> > > >>actually GET it  now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is
> > > available.
> > > Well its kind of nice to know in advance so you can build into your
> project
> > > plans when you will migrate and who will be involved etc. How long did
> > > microsoft make us to wait for win95????
> > >
> > > >>Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the PowerBuilder
> > > >>upgrade?!
> > > Sybase are a profit organisation and if PB8 is such a good product (
> which I
> > > believe it will be ) then they deserve to reap the rewards from it. I
> would
> > > imagine that if you developed a good product you would want some money
> for it?
> > > I don't imagine development tools for Oracle, BEA or IBM come cheap
> either.
> > >
> > > >>Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one
> of
> > > >>you.  Give it up.
> > > Well I admit to being a sybase defender and attacker. I think they have
> a great
> > > suite of products and they certainly have proven themselves over the
> years. EAS
> > > is a superb product. On the other hand I agree that marketing and
> support need
> > > some polishing, but those facts alone are not good enough reasons to
> give up on
> > > solid development tools.
> > >
> > > >>if you really think you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then
> you must
> > > >>figure it will be through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing
> out how
> > > they >>can leverage PB within EA Server.
> > > I agree with you on this but you're just bringing up what has been
> discussed (
> > > in a better tone ) on many occasions before.
> > >
> > > Best of luck
> > >
> > > A.
> > >
> > > So_Long_Yu wrote:
> > >
> > > > Bleak at best, given the typical Sybase mismanagement of product
> marketing,
> > > > customer service, etc.
> > > >
> > > > Here's the latest:
> > > > Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released PowerBuilder 8
> > > > today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't actually GET
> it
> > > > now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is available.
> > > >
> > > > Now that's interesting -- the product is released, but not available.
> > > > Clever.
> > > >
> > > > Oh, and all you EA Studio customers -- guess what else Sybase has come
> up
> > > > with?  Despite the fact that PowerBuilder is a part of EA Studio, and
> > > > despite the fact that you may be an EA Studio and EA Server customer,
> you
> > > > are NOT entitled to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade!  Yep, you got it.
> This is
> > > > even better than it sounds, because many of you, like us, were
> originally
> > > > PowerBuilder Enterprise customers, and then Sybase came along and
> > > > AUTOMATICALLY upgraded you to be EA Studio customers (when PB 7 came
> out).
> > > > Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the PowerBuilder
> > > > upgrade?!
> > > >
> > > > Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one
> of
> > > > you.  Give it up.  Spare us the typically excuses and finger pointing
> about
> > > > why all of this is actually OUR fault or why this is actually a GOOD
> thing
> > > > for us or why we should be the one marketing your freaking product
> because
> > > > it will be more believable coming from us.  You have continually SH*T
> on
> > > > your customers.  At this point it doesn't even matter how good or bad
> the
> > > > product is.  It doesn't matter that there happen to be a few good
> Sybase
> > > > engineers who do what they can in this and other newsgroups to help
> out.
> > > > You are so far behind in the application server market that it just
> doesn't
> > > > matter anyway.  That battle was lost a long time ago; if you really
> think
> > > > you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must figure it
> will be
> > > > through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how they can
> leverage
> > > > PB within EA Server.  Problem is, you can't piss off those customers
> FAST
> > > > enough, apparently.  So now you've come up with another w
> > > > ay to do it.
> > > >
> > > > Folks, do yourselves a favor:
> > > > http://developer.bea.com/index.jsp
> > > > http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/
> > >
> > > --
> > > __________________________
> > >
> > > Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
> > > System Architect
> > > ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
> > > The University of Sydney
> > > Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
> > > Mobile: +61 403 341 474
> > > Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711
> >

0
David
6/14/2001 7:56:00 PM
I agree, there is "No free lunch", but FREE does have an impact.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no IBM fan.  I'm using IBM to illustrate one of my two
gripes.  EAServer marketing is virtually nonexistent.  A marketing campaign
similar to WebSphere's would remedy the situation.  WebSphere advertisements
appear in almost every trade rag I pick up.  Unfortunately, this is how most
people are educated regarding technology.  Although, I agree word of mouth is
the best reference, it just takes longer.  Especially, on an international
level.

I agree, porting PB to Java will be an expensive endeavor.  Why do you think I
want a Linux port?  I was just trying to illustrate another reason why Sybase is
taking a risk by not porting to Linux.  If shops are willing to incur the cost
of porting to Java, they certainly aren't going to port back to PB if the
project fails.  By virtue of the fact that they are now Java shops, they have a
variety of application servers to choose from.  Does Sybase feel strong enough
about their market share to take such a risk?

Your analogy is well taken.  I guess my reply would be, if your race team wins
all the time (a successful development environment) then there would be no need
to buy the dragster.  As mentioned before, PB/EAServer is an excellent
combination.  The problem is, Windows isn't an industrial strength OS.

"Dean Jones [TeamSybase]" wrote:

> Why because you are writing in java do you have or want to use IBM?  Have
> you tested with IBM? Is it because its free <G>. Business rule 102 "There's
> no free lunch"
>
> Again I use Sybase tools because I can develop faster and cheaper then with
> other tools.
>
> Management making a decision to port to Java is very easy, all they do is
> say go ahead and convert. many months later and many $$ later nothing has
> been done and your back looking for a solution. A company we work with
> selected WebSphere, they took Visual Age java training, the took WebSphere
> training, they started their conversion. Now they stopped and are trying to
> come up with a new solution. It's too expensive to convert "c" to java and
> to expensive to convert PB to java.
>
> The fact is companies need to use an application server that fits the
> project. It's foolish to select an application server and programming
> language and then make all project fit into the choice.
>
> Here is my analogy: A race team has been racing stock-cars for many years.
> Management wants to improve their record so they purchase a new dragster.
> Its very expensive but very fast. The biggest race of the year is in 2
> months. They now have a very fast dragster and expect to win. The problem is
> the race is on an oval track which the dragster does not perform well on and
> the racing team has never driven a dragster and have no idea how to start.
>
> --
> Dean Jones TeamSybase
> PowerTeam, Inc.
> www.powerobjects.com
> WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
> Come visit our booth at TechWave
> EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar
>
> "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> news:3B28EB72.2141CA67@prescriber.com...
> > Roy,
> >
> > I'm not a Unix/Linux internals guy, but I find it hard to believe it will
> cost
> > millions of dollars to port to Linux.  Isn't PB written in C++?  Doesn't
> Sybase
> > already have PB Unix ports?  Are they going to spend those saved millions
> on
> > marketing?
> >
> > The point I was trying to make is, Linux is gaining popularity as we
> speak.
> > Forcing Windows PB developers (who want to move to Linux and not Solaris,
> AIX or
> > HP-UX) to start using Java will remove the Sybase (i.e. PB) handcuffs.
> These
> > people will no longer be tied to PB and Sybase.  I guess that's a
> calculated
> > risk Sybase is willing to make.  Keep in mind, developers don't make
> application
> > server buy decisions, "informed" executives who read trade rags, without
> > EAServer advertising, make those decisions.
> >
> > Try this snare: One of these "informed" executives just read an article
> touting
> > Linux and decides that's the way to go; the developers inform this person
> that
> > PB isn't supported on Linux and a migration to Linux would mean porting to
> Java;
> > the "informed" executive says OK - let's port to Java and move to WebLogic
> or
> > WebSphere.  Bye bye Sybase.  At this point, mustering up demand for a PB
> Linux
> > port will be futile.  A proactive approach is always more effective than a
> > reactive approach (management 101).
> >
> > IBM offers FREE developer versions of WebSphere.  Sybase used to provide a
> > developers version of EAServer for free.  I guess Sybase had another
> brainstorm
> > when they decided to start charging for it.
> >
> > Obviously, this logic isn't very obvious.  I know you'll be happy to hear
> this,
> > and I hate to say it (because I really like PB/EAServer), once ported to
> Java -
> > bye bye Sybase (IBM is waiting with open arms).
> >
> > I've said enough.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> >
> > > David,
> > >
> > > Get enough people that share your point of view and you may get Sybase
> to
> > > change their mind -- the decision not to port PB to Linux was primarilly
> > > based on demand, which apparently is not there yet, at least not in
> numbers
> > > that could justify spending the millions of $s it would cost to do so.
> > >
> > > Vote soon, vote often...
> > >
> > > --
> > > <hopethishelps />
> > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > > http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
> > >
> > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3B286882.87C3C6DD@prescriber.com...
> > > > An additional two cents...
> > > >
> > > > Sybase has decided NOT to port PB to Linux.  So, there is no
> transition
> > > path for
> > > > those of us who are fed up with Windows on Intel, but who would like
> to
> > > stay with
> > > > Intel.  The reason given, "Java will be the development platform of
> choice
> > > on
> > > > Linux".  If I have to port my PB components to Java in order to run on
> > > Linux, I am
> > > > no longer tied to EAServer (since it's the only application server
> that
> > > supports
> > > > the PBVM).  The decision makers at Sybase may not think so, but
> they're
> > > providing,
> > > > if not encouraging, a migration away from Sybase products for those
> long
> > > time PB
> > > > developers (which, I would imagine, is most of your customer base).
> > > Windows is
> > > > fine for in-house applications of small to medium size, but Unix/Linux
> is
> > > the way
> > > > to go for industrial strength web applications.  I know this, I'm not
> > > comfortable
> > > > deploying an ASP application, that potentially could be taking
> hundreds of
> > > > thousands of hits, on Windows.  I don't care what Microsoft says about
> > > Windows
> > > > 2000, I don't believe it can hack it (I'm not real interested in
> > > clustering 10+
> > > > machines).  In addition, I just don't know what to think about
> PB/EAServer
> > > for
> > > > Solaris, AIX and HP-UX.  They just don't seem to be getting much air
> play
> > > on the
> > > > newsgroups.  I'll deploy Apache/Tomcat/Jarkarta on Linux as a web
> server
> > > on the
> > > > front end and put my Oracle database on Linux on the back end.  It
> sure
> > > would be
> > > > nice to know I could deploy PB/EAServer on Linux in the middle.
> > > >
> > > > Let's face facts, probably 98% of PB/EAServer developers are
> Windows/Intel
> > > based.
> > > > That's where they must stay if they want to stick with PB and Intel.
> > > >
> > > > Don't get me wrong, I'm a long time PB developer who has migrated a We
> b.PB
> > > > application to EAServer.  I'm ready to migrate to Linux.  Again, If
> I'm
> > > forced to
> > > > port to Java, a whole new world opens up.  Since Sybase doesn't
> actively
> > > market
> > > > EAServer, no one asks or knows about EAServer.  Everyone asks about
> > > WebLogic and
> > > > WebSphere.  I don't know who makes the decisions at Sybase, but
> they're
> > > dropping
> > > > the ball big time.  I keep hearing how Sybase is getting there act
> > > together, but
> > > > nothing has changed.  PB and EAServer are outstanding products.  The
> > > technical
> > > > people behind these products should be proud.  Wish I could say the
> same
> > > for Sybase
> > > > marketing.
> > > >
> > > > Well, I guess that was about 10 cents worth...
> > > >
> > > > "Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > >>Here's the latest: Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just
> > > released
> > > > > >>PowerBuilder 8  today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way,
> you
> > > can't
> > > > > >>actually GET it  now, but we sure did want to let you know that it
> is
> > > > > available.
> > > > > Well its kind of nice to know in advance so you can build into your
> > > project
> > > > > plans when you will migrate and who will be involved etc. How long
> did
> > > > > microsoft make us to wait for win95????
> > > > >
> > > > > >>Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the
> PowerBuilder
> > > > > >>upgrade?!
> > > > > Sybase are a profit organisation and if PB8 is such a good product (
> > > which I
> > > > > believe it will be ) then they deserve to reap the rewards from it.
> I
> > > would
> > > > > imagine that if you developed a good product you would want some
> money
> > > for it?
> > > > > I don't imagine development tools for Oracle, BEA or IBM come cheap
> > > either.
> > > > >
> > > > > >>Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be
> one
> > > of
> > > > > >>you.  Give it up.
> > > > > Well I admit to being a sybase defender and attacker. I think they
> have
> > > a great
> > > > > suite of products and they certainly have proven themselves over the
> > > years. EAS
> > > > > is a superb product. On the other hand I agree that marketing and
> > > support need
> > > > > some polishing, but those facts alone are not good enough reasons to
> > > give up on
> > > > > solid development tools.
> > > > >
> > > > > >>if you really think you are going to compete with BEA and IBM,
> then
> > > you must
> > > > > >>figure it will be through attracting PowerBuilder shops by
> pointing
> > > out how
> > > > > they >>can leverage PB within EA Server.
> > > > > I agree with you on this but you're just bringing up what has been
> > > discussed (
> > > > > in a better tone ) on many occasions before.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best of luck
> > > > >
> > > > > A.
> > > > >
> > > > > So_Long_Yu wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Bleak at best, given the typical Sybase mismanagement of product
> > > marketing,
> > > > > > customer service, etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here's the latest:
> > > > > > Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released
> PowerBuilder 8
> > > > > > today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't actually
> GET
> > > it
> > > > > > now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is available.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now that's interesting -- the product is released, but not
> available.
> > > > > > Clever.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oh, and all you EA Studio customers -- guess what else Sybase has
> come
> > > up
> > > > > > with?  Despite the fact that PowerBuilder is a part of EA Studio,
> and
> > > > > > despite the fact that you may be an EA Studio and EA Server
> customer,
> > > you
> > > > > > are NOT entitled to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade!  Yep, you got it.
> > > This is
> > > > > > even better than it sounds, because many of you, like us, were
> > > originally
> > > > > > PowerBuilder Enterprise customers, and then Sybase came along and
> > > > > > AUTOMATICALLY upgraded you to be EA Studio customers (when PB 7
> came
> > > out).
> > > > > > Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the
> PowerBuilder
> > > > > > upgrade?!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be
> one
> > > of
> > > > > > you.  Give it up.  Spare us the typically excuses and finger
> pointing
> > > about
> > > > > > why all of this is actually OUR fault or why this is actually a
> GOOD
> > > thing
> > > > > > for us or why we should be the one marketing your freaking product
> > > because
> > > > > > it will be more believable coming from us.  You have continually
> SH*T
> > > on
> > > > > > your customers.  At this point it doesn't even matter how good or
> bad
> > > the
> > > > > > product is.  It doesn't matter that there happen to be a few good
> > > Sybase
> > > > > > engineers who do what they can in this and other newsgroups to
> help
> > > out.
> > > > > > You are so far behind in the application server market that it
> just
> > > doesn't
> > > > > > matter anyway.  That battle was lost a long time ago; if you
> really
> > > think
> > > > > > you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must figure it
> > > will be
> > > > > > through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how they can
> > > leverage
> > > > > > PB within EA Server.  Problem is, you can't piss off those
> customers
> > > FAST
> > > > > > enough, apparently.  So now you've come up with another w
> > > > > > ay to do it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Folks, do yourselves a favor:
> > > > > > http://developer.bea.com/index.jsp
> > > > > > http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > __________________________
> > > > >
> > > > > Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
> > > > > System Architect
> > > > > ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
> > > > > The University of Sydney
> > > > > Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
> > > > > Mobile: +61 403 341 474
> > > > > Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711
> > > >
> >

0
David
6/14/2001 8:39:46 PM
>>
Your analogy is well taken.  I guess my reply would be, if your race team
wins
all the time (a successful development environment) then there would be no
need
to buy the dragster.
<<

You might have a race team that wins all the time, but management has been
watching the other race teams. A lot of them are buying dragsters, so
instead of making a desicession that is right for their race team, they
purchase a dragster and tell the race team to use it. <G>

--
Dean Jones TeamSybase
PowerTeam, Inc.
www.powerobjects.com
WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
Come visit our booth at TechWave
EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar


"David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
news:3B292112.AF21E31E@prescriber.com...
> I agree, there is "No free lunch", but FREE does have an impact.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I'm no IBM fan.  I'm using IBM to illustrate one of my
two
> gripes.  EAServer marketing is virtually nonexistent.  A marketing
campaign
> similar to WebSphere's would remedy the situation.  WebSphere
advertisements
> appear in almost every trade rag I pick up.  Unfortunately, this is how
most
> people are educated regarding technology.  Although, I agree word of mouth
is
> the best reference, it just takes longer.  Especially, on an international
> level.
>
> I agree, porting PB to Java will be an expensive endeavor.  Why do you
think I
> want a Linux port?  I was just trying to illustrate another reason why
Sybase is
> taking a risk by not porting to Linux.  If shops are willing to incur the
cost
> of porting to Java, they certainly aren't going to port back to PB if the
> project fails.  By virtue of the fact that they are now Java shops, they
have a
> variety of application servers to choose from.  Does Sybase feel strong
enough
> about their market share to take such a risk?
>
> Your analogy is well taken.  I guess my reply would be, if your race team
wins
> all the time (a successful development environment) then there would be no
need
> to buy the dragster.  As mentioned before, PB/EAServer is an excellent
> combination.  The problem is, Windows isn't an industrial strength OS.
>
> "Dean Jones [TeamSybase]" wrote:
>
> > Why because you are writing in java do you have or want to use IBM?
Have
> > you tested with IBM? Is it because its free <G>. Business rule 102
"There's
> > no free lunch"
> >
> > Again I use Sybase tools because I can develop faster and cheaper then
with
> > other tools.
> >
> > Management making a decision to port to Java is very easy, all they do
is
> > say go ahead and convert. many months later and many $$ later nothing
has
> > been done and your back looking for a solution. A company we work with
> > selected WebSphere, they took Visual Age java training, the took
WebSphere
> > training, they started their conversion. Now they stopped and are trying
to
> > come up with a new solution. It's too expensive to convert "c" to java
and
> > to expensive to convert PB to java.
> >
> > The fact is companies need to use an application server that fits the
> > project. It's foolish to select an application server and programming
> > language and then make all project fit into the choice.
> >
> > Here is my analogy: A race team has been racing stock-cars for many
years.
> > Management wants to improve their record so they purchase a new
dragster.
> > Its very expensive but very fast. The biggest race of the year is in 2
> > months. They now have a very fast dragster and expect to win. The
problem is
> > the race is on an oval track which the dragster does not perform well on
and
> > the racing team has never driven a dragster and have no idea how to
start.
> >
> > --
> > Dean Jones TeamSybase
> > PowerTeam, Inc.
> > www.powerobjects.com
> > WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
> > Come visit our booth at TechWave
> > EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar
> >
> > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > news:3B28EB72.2141CA67@prescriber.com...
> > > Roy,
> > >
> > > I'm not a Unix/Linux internals guy, but I find it hard to believe it
will
> > cost
> > > millions of dollars to port to Linux.  Isn't PB written in C++?
Doesn't
> > Sybase
> > > already have PB Unix ports?  Are they going to spend those saved
millions
> > on
> > > marketing?
> > >
> > > The point I was trying to make is, Linux is gaining popularity as we
> > speak.
> > > Forcing Windows PB developers (who want to move to Linux and not
Solaris,
> > AIX or
> > > HP-UX) to start using Java will remove the Sybase (i.e. PB) handcuffs.
> > These
> > > people will no longer be tied to PB and Sybase.  I guess that's a
> > calculated
> > > risk Sybase is willing to make.  Keep in mind, developers don't make
> > application
> > > server buy decisions, "informed" executives who read trade rags,
without
> > > EAServer advertising, make those decisions.
> > >
> > > Try this snare: One of these "informed" executives just read an
article
> > touting
> > > Linux and decides that's the way to go; the developers inform this
person
> > that
> > > PB isn't supported on Linux and a migration to Linux would mean
porting to
> > Java;
> > > the "informed" executive says OK - let's port to Java and move to
WebLogic
> > or
> > > WebSphere.  Bye bye Sybase.  At this point, mustering up demand for a
PB
> > Linux
> > > port will be futile.  A proactive approach is always more effective
than a
> > > reactive approach (management 101).
> > >
> > > IBM offers FREE developer versions of WebSphere.  Sybase used to
provide a
> > > developers version of EAServer for free.  I guess Sybase had another
> > brainstorm
> > > when they decided to start charging for it.
> > >
> > > Obviously, this logic isn't very obvious.  I know you'll be happy to
hear
> > this,
> > > and I hate to say it (because I really like PB/EAServer), once ported
to
> > Java -
> > > bye bye Sybase (IBM is waiting with open arms).
> > >
> > > I've said enough.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> > >
> > > > David,
> > > >
> > > > Get enough people that share your point of view and you may get
Sybase
> > to
> > > > change their mind -- the decision not to port PB to Linux was
primarilly
> > > > based on demand, which apparently is not there yet, at least not in
> > numbers
> > > > that could justify spending the millions of $s it would cost to do
so.
> > > >
> > > > Vote soon, vote often...
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > <hopethishelps />
> > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > > > http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
> > > >
> > > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:3B286882.87C3C6DD@prescriber.com...
> > > > > An additional two cents...
> > > > >
> > > > > Sybase has decided NOT to port PB to Linux.  So, there is no
> > transition
> > > > path for
> > > > > those of us who are fed up with Windows on Intel, but who would
like
> > to
> > > > stay with
> > > > > Intel.  The reason given, "Java will be the development platform
of
> > choice
> > > > on
> > > > > Linux".  If I have to port my PB components to Java in order to
run on
> > > > Linux, I am
> > > > > no longer tied to EAServer (since it's the only application server
> > that
> > > > supports
> > > > > the PBVM).  The decision makers at Sybase may not think so, but
> > they're
> > > > providing,
> > > > > if not encouraging, a migration away from Sybase products for
those
> > long
> > > > time PB
> > > > > developers (which, I would imagine, is most of your customer
base).
> > > > Windows is
> > > > > fine for in-house applications of small to medium size, but
Unix/Linux
> > is
> > > > the way
> > > > > to go for industrial strength web applications.  I know this, I'm
not
> > > > comfortable
> > > > > deploying an ASP application, that potentially could be taking
> > hundreds of
> > > > > thousands of hits, on Windows.  I don't care what Microsoft says
about
> > > > Windows
> > > > > 2000, I don't believe it can hack it (I'm not real interested in
> > > > clustering 10+
> > > > > machines).  In addition, I just don't know what to think about
> > PB/EAServer
> > > > for
> > > > > Solaris, AIX and HP-UX.  They just don't seem to be getting much
air
> > play
> > > > on the
> > > > > newsgroups.  I'll deploy Apache/Tomcat/Jarkarta on Linux as a web
> > server
> > > > on the
> > > > > front end and put my Oracle database on Linux on the back end.  It
> > sure
> > > > would be
> > > > > nice to know I could deploy PB/EAServer on Linux in the middle.
> > > > >
> > > > > Let's face facts, probably 98% of PB/EAServer developers are
> > Windows/Intel
> > > > based.
> > > > > That's where they must stay if they want to stick with PB and
Intel.
> > > > >
> > > > > Don't get me wrong, I'm a long time PB developer who has migrated
a We
> > b.PB
> > > > > application to EAServer.  I'm ready to migrate to Linux.  Again,
If
> > I'm
> > > > forced to
> > > > > port to Java, a whole new world opens up.  Since Sybase doesn't
> > actively
> > > > market
> > > > > EAServer, no one asks or knows about EAServer.  Everyone asks
about
> > > > WebLogic and
> > > > > WebSphere.  I don't know who makes the decisions at Sybase, but
> > they're
> > > > dropping
> > > > > the ball big time.  I keep hearing how Sybase is getting there act
> > > > together, but
> > > > > nothing has changed.  PB and EAServer are outstanding products.
The
> > > > technical
> > > > > people behind these products should be proud.  Wish I could say
the
> > same
> > > > for Sybase
> > > > > marketing.
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, I guess that was about 10 cents worth...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > >>Here's the latest: Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We
just
> > > > released
> > > > > > >>PowerBuilder 8  today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the
way,
> > you
> > > > can't
> > > > > > >>actually GET it  now, but we sure did want to let you know
that it
> > is
> > > > > > available.
> > > > > > Well its kind of nice to know in advance so you can build into
your
> > > > project
> > > > > > plans when you will migrate and who will be involved etc. How
long
> > did
> > > > > > microsoft make us to wait for win95????
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >>Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the
> > PowerBuilder
> > > > > > >>upgrade?!
> > > > > > Sybase are a profit organisation and if PB8 is such a good
product (
> > > > which I
> > > > > > believe it will be ) then they deserve to reap the rewards from
it.
> > I
> > > > would
> > > > > > imagine that if you developed a good product you would want some
> > money
> > > > for it?
> > > > > > I don't imagine development tools for Oracle, BEA or IBM come
cheap
> > > > either.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >>Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to
be
> > one
> > > > of
> > > > > > >>you.  Give it up.
> > > > > > Well I admit to being a sybase defender and attacker. I think
they
> > have
> > > > a great
> > > > > > suite of products and they certainly have proven themselves over
the
> > > > years. EAS
> > > > > > is a superb product. On the other hand I agree that marketing
and
> > > > support need
> > > > > > some polishing, but those facts alone are not good enough
reasons to
> > > > give up on
> > > > > > solid development tools.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >>if you really think you are going to compete with BEA and IBM,
> > then
> > > > you must
> > > > > > >>figure it will be through attracting PowerBuilder shops by
> > pointing
> > > > out how
> > > > > > they >>can leverage PB within EA Server.
> > > > > > I agree with you on this but you're just bringing up what has
been
> > > > discussed (
> > > > > > in a better tone ) on many occasions before.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best of luck
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So_Long_Yu wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bleak at best, given the typical Sybase mismanagement of
product
> > > > marketing,
> > > > > > > customer service, etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Here's the latest:
> > > > > > > Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released
> > PowerBuilder 8
> > > > > > > today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't
actually
> > GET
> > > > it
> > > > > > > now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is
available.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now that's interesting -- the product is released, but not
> > available.
> > > > > > > Clever.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oh, and all you EA Studio customers -- guess what else Sybase
has
> > come
> > > > up
> > > > > > > with?  Despite the fact that PowerBuilder is a part of EA
Studio,
> > and
> > > > > > > despite the fact that you may be an EA Studio and EA Server
> > customer,
> > > > you
> > > > > > > are NOT entitled to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade!  Yep, you got
it.
> > > > This is
> > > > > > > even better than it sounds, because many of you, like us, were
> > > > originally
> > > > > > > PowerBuilder Enterprise customers, and then Sybase came along
and
> > > > > > > AUTOMATICALLY upgraded you to be EA Studio customers (when PB
7
> > came
> > > > out).
> > > > > > > Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the
> > PowerBuilder
> > > > > > > upgrade?!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to
be
> > one
> > > > of
> > > > > > > you.  Give it up.  Spare us the typically excuses and finger
> > pointing
> > > > about
> > > > > > > why all of this is actually OUR fault or why this is actually
a
> > GOOD
> > > > thing
> > > > > > > for us or why we should be the one marketing your freaking
product
> > > > because
> > > > > > > it will be more believable coming from us.  You have
continually
> > SH*T
> > > > on
> > > > > > > your customers.  At this point it doesn't even matter how good
or
> > bad
> > > > the
> > > > > > > product is.  It doesn't matter that there happen to be a few
good
> > > > Sybase
> > > > > > > engineers who do what they can in this and other newsgroups to
> > help
> > > > out.
> > > > > > > You are so far behind in the application server market that it
> > just
> > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > matter anyway.  That battle was lost a long time ago; if you
> > really
> > > > think
> > > > > > > you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must
figure it
> > > > will be
> > > > > > > through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how they
can
> > > > leverage
> > > > > > > PB within EA Server.  Problem is, you can't piss off those
> > customers
> > > > FAST
> > > > > > > enough, apparently.  So now you've come up with another w
> > > > > > > ay to do it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Folks, do yourselves a favor:
> > > > > > > http://developer.bea.com/index.jsp
> > > > > > > http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > __________________________
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
> > > > > > System Architect
> > > > > > ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
> > > > > > The University of Sydney
> > > > > > Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
> > > > > > Mobile: +61 403 341 474
> > > > > > Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711
> > > > >
> > >
>


0
Dean
6/14/2001 9:00:17 PM
First of all, we all know management doesn't make mistakes.  Secondly, you
reinforce my point regarding Sybase marketing.  Management is learning about
dragsters in the trade rags.  The problem is, no one knows Sybase has a
dragster...

"Dean Jones [TeamSybase]" wrote:

> >>
> Your analogy is well taken.  I guess my reply would be, if your race team
> wins
> all the time (a successful development environment) then there would be no
> need
> to buy the dragster.
> <<
>
> You might have a race team that wins all the time, but management has been
> watching the other race teams. A lot of them are buying dragsters, so
> instead of making a desicession that is right for their race team, they
> purchase a dragster and tell the race team to use it. <G>
>
> --
> Dean Jones TeamSybase
> PowerTeam, Inc.
> www.powerobjects.com
> WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
> Come visit our booth at TechWave
> EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar
>
> "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> news:3B292112.AF21E31E@prescriber.com...
> > I agree, there is "No free lunch", but FREE does have an impact.
> >
> > Don't get me wrong, I'm no IBM fan.  I'm using IBM to illustrate one of my
> two
> > gripes.  EAServer marketing is virtually nonexistent.  A marketing
> campaign
> > similar to WebSphere's would remedy the situation.  WebSphere
> advertisements
> > appear in almost every trade rag I pick up.  Unfortunately, this is how
> most
> > people are educated regarding technology.  Although, I agree word of mouth
> is
> > the best reference, it just takes longer.  Especially, on an international
> > level.
> >
> > I agree, porting PB to Java will be an expensive endeavor.  Why do you
> think I
> > want a Linux port?  I was just trying to illustrate another reason why
> Sybase is
> > taking a risk by not porting to Linux.  If shops are willing to incur the
> cost
> > of porting to Java, they certainly aren't going to port back to PB if the
> > project fails.  By virtue of the fact that they are now Java shops, they
> have a
> > variety of application servers to choose from.  Does Sybase feel strong
> enough
> > about their market share to take such a risk?
> >
> > Your analogy is well taken.  I guess my reply would be, if your race team
> wins
> > all the time (a successful development environment) then there would be no
> need
> > to buy the dragster.  As mentioned before, PB/EAServer is an excellent
> > combination.  The problem is, Windows isn't an industrial strength OS.
> >
> > "Dean Jones [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> >
> > > Why because you are writing in java do you have or want to use IBM?
> Have
> > > you tested with IBM? Is it because its free <G>. Business rule 102
> "There's
> > > no free lunch"
> > >
> > > Again I use Sybase tools because I can develop faster and cheaper then
> with
> > > other tools.
> > >
> > > Management making a decision to port to Java is very easy, all they do
> is
> > > say go ahead and convert. many months later and many $$ later nothing
> has
> > > been done and your back looking for a solution. A company we work with
> > > selected WebSphere, they took Visual Age java training, the took
> WebSphere
> > > training, they started their conversion. Now they stopped and are trying
> to
> > > come up with a new solution. It's too expensive to convert "c" to java
> and
> > > to expensive to convert PB to java.
> > >
> > > The fact is companies need to use an application server that fits the
> > > project. It's foolish to select an application server and programming
> > > language and then make all project fit into the choice.
> > >
> > > Here is my analogy: A race team has been racing stock-cars for many
> years.
> > > Management wants to improve their record so they purchase a new
> dragster.
> > > Its very expensive but very fast. The biggest race of the year is in 2
> > > months. They now have a very fast dragster and expect to win. The
> problem is
> > > the race is on an oval track which the dragster does not perform well on
> and
> > > the racing team has never driven a dragster and have no idea how to
> start.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dean Jones TeamSybase
> > > PowerTeam, Inc.
> > > www.powerobjects.com
> > > WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
> > > Come visit our booth at TechWave
> > > EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar
> > >
> > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3B28EB72.2141CA67@prescriber.com...
> > > > Roy,
> > > >
> > > > I'm not a Unix/Linux internals guy, but I find it hard to believe it
> will
> > > cost
> > > > millions of dollars to port to Linux.  Isn't PB written in C++?
> Doesn't
> > > Sybase
> > > > already have PB Unix ports?  Are they going to spend those saved
> millions
> > > on
> > > > marketing?
> > > >
> > > > The point I was trying to make is, Linux is gaining popularity as we
> > > speak.
> > > > Forcing Windows PB developers (who want to move to Linux and not
> Solaris,
> > > AIX or
> > > > HP-UX) to start using Java will remove the Sybase (i.e. PB) handcuffs.
> > > These
> > > > people will no longer be tied to PB and Sybase.  I guess that's a
> > > calculated
> > > > risk Sybase is willing to make.  Keep in mind, developers don't make
> > > application
> > > > server buy decisions, "informed" executives who read trade rags,
> without
> > > > EAServer advertising, make those decisions.
> > > >
> > > > Try this snare: One of these "informed" executives just read an
> article
> > > touting
> > > > Linux and decides that's the way to go; the developers inform this
> person
> > > that
> > > > PB isn't supported on Linux and a migration to Linux would mean
> porting to
> > > Java;
> > > > the "informed" executive says OK - let's port to Java and move to
> WebLogic
> > > or
> > > > WebSphere.  Bye bye Sybase.  At this point, mustering up demand for a
> PB
> > > Linux
> > > > port will be futile.  A proactive approach is always more effective
> than a
> > > > reactive approach (management 101).
> > > >
> > > > IBM offers FREE developer versions of WebSphere.  Sybase used to
> provide a
> > > > developers version of EAServer for free.  I guess Sybase had another
> > > brainstorm
> > > > when they decided to start charging for it.
> > > >
> > > > Obviously, this logic isn't very obvious.  I know you'll be happy to
> hear
> > > this,
> > > > and I hate to say it (because I really like PB/EAServer), once ported
> to
> > > Java -
> > > > bye bye Sybase (IBM is waiting with open arms).
> > > >
> > > > I've said enough.
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > > >
> > > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > David,
> > > > >
> > > > > Get enough people that share your point of view and you may get
> Sybase
> > > to
> > > > > change their mind -- the decision not to port PB to Linux was
> primarilly
> > > > > based on demand, which apparently is not there yet, at least not in
> > > numbers
> > > > > that could justify spending the millions of $s it would cost to do
> so.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vote soon, vote often...
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > <hopethishelps />
> > > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > > > > http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
> > > > >
> > > > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3B286882.87C3C6DD@prescriber.com...
> > > > > > An additional two cents...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sybase has decided NOT to port PB to Linux.  So, there is no
> > > transition
> > > > > path for
> > > > > > those of us who are fed up with Windows on Intel, but who would
> like
> > > to
> > > > > stay with
> > > > > > Intel.  The reason given, "Java will be the development platform
> of
> > > choice
> > > > > on
> > > > > > Linux".  If I have to port my PB components to Java in order to
> run on
> > > > > Linux, I am
> > > > > > no longer tied to EAServer (since it's the only application server
> > > that
> > > > > supports
> > > > > > the PBVM).  The decision makers at Sybase may not think so, but
> > > they're
> > > > > providing,
> > > > > > if not encouraging, a migration away from Sybase products for
> those
> > > long
> > > > > time PB
> > > > > > developers (which, I would imagine, is most of your customer
> base).
> > > > > Windows is
> > > > > > fine for in-house applications of small to medium size, but
> Unix/Linux
> > > is
> > > > > the way
> > > > > > to go for industrial strength web applications.  I know this, I'm
> not
> > > > > comfortable
> > > > > > deploying an ASP application, that potentially could be taking
> > > hundreds of
> > > > > > thousands of hits, on Windows.  I don't care what Microsoft says
> about
> > > > > Windows
> > > > > > 2000, I don't believe it can hack it (I'm not real interested in
> > > > > clustering 10+
> > > > > > machines).  In addition, I just don't know what to think about
> > > PB/EAServer
> > > > > for
> > > > > > Solaris, AIX and HP-UX.  They just don't seem to be getting much
> air
> > > play
> > > > > on the
> > > > > > newsgroups.  I'll deploy Apache/Tomcat/Jarkarta on Linux as a web
> > > server
> > > > > on the
> > > > > > front end and put my Oracle database on Linux on the back end.  It
> > > sure
> > > > > would be
> > > > > > nice to know I could deploy PB/EAServer on Linux in the middle.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let's face facts, probably 98% of PB/EAServer developers are
> > > Windows/Intel
> > > > > based.
> > > > > > That's where they must stay if they want to stick with PB and
> Intel.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Don't get me wrong, I'm a long time PB developer who has migrated
> a We
> > > b.PB
> > > > > > application to EAServer.  I'm ready to migrate to Linux.  Again,
> If
> > > I'm
> > > > > forced to
> > > > > > port to Java, a whole new world opens up.  Since Sybase doesn't
> > > actively
> > > > > market
> > > > > > EAServer, no one asks or knows about EAServer.  Everyone asks
> about
> > > > > WebLogic and
> > > > > > WebSphere.  I don't know who makes the decisions at Sybase, but
> > > they're
> > > > > dropping
> > > > > > the ball big time.  I keep hearing how Sybase is getting there act
> > > > > together, but
> > > > > > nothing has changed.  PB and EAServer are outstanding products.
> The
> > > > > technical
> > > > > > people behind these products should be proud.  Wish I could say
> the
> > > same
> > > > > for Sybase
> > > > > > marketing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well, I guess that was about 10 cents worth...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >>Here's the latest: Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We
> just
> > > > > released
> > > > > > > >>PowerBuilder 8  today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the
> way,
> > > you
> > > > > can't
> > > > > > > >>actually GET it  now, but we sure did want to let you know
> that it
> > > is
> > > > > > > available.
> > > > > > > Well its kind of nice to know in advance so you can build into
> your
> > > > > project
> > > > > > > plans when you will migrate and who will be involved etc. How
> long
> > > did
> > > > > > > microsoft make us to wait for win95????
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >>Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the
> > > PowerBuilder
> > > > > > > >>upgrade?!
> > > > > > > Sybase are a profit organisation and if PB8 is such a good
> product (
> > > > > which I
> > > > > > > believe it will be ) then they deserve to reap the rewards from
> it.
> > > I
> > > > > would
> > > > > > > imagine that if you developed a good product you would want some
> > > money
> > > > > for it?
> > > > > > > I don't imagine development tools for Oracle, BEA or IBM come
> cheap
> > > > > either.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >>Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to
> be
> > > one
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > >>you.  Give it up.
> > > > > > > Well I admit to being a sybase defender and attacker. I think
> they
> > > have
> > > > > a great
> > > > > > > suite of products and they certainly have proven themselves over
> the
> > > > > years. EAS
> > > > > > > is a superb product. On the other hand I agree that marketing
> and
> > > > > support need
> > > > > > > some polishing, but those facts alone are not good enough
> reasons to
> > > > > give up on
> > > > > > > solid development tools.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >>if you really think you are going to compete with BEA and IBM,
> > > then
> > > > > you must
> > > > > > > >>figure it will be through attracting PowerBuilder shops by
> > > pointing
> > > > > out how
> > > > > > > they >>can leverage PB within EA Server.
> > > > > > > I agree with you on this but you're just bringing up what has
> been
> > > > > discussed (
> > > > > > > in a better tone ) on many occasions before.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best of luck
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So_Long_Yu wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bleak at best, given the typical Sybase mismanagement of
> product
> > > > > marketing,
> > > > > > > > customer service, etc.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Here's the latest:
> > > > > > > > Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released
> > > PowerBuilder 8
> > > > > > > > today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't
> actually
> > > GET
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > > now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is
> available.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now that's interesting -- the product is released, but not
> > > available.
> > > > > > > > Clever.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Oh, and all you EA Studio customers -- guess what else Sybase
> has
> > > come
> > > > > up
> > > > > > > > with?  Despite the fact that PowerBuilder is a part of EA
> Studio,
> > > and
> > > > > > > > despite the fact that you may be an EA Studio and EA Server
> > > customer,
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > > are NOT entitled to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade!  Yep, you got
> it.
> > > > > This is
> > > > > > > > even better than it sounds, because many of you, like us, were
> > > > > originally
> > > > > > > > PowerBuilder Enterprise customers, and then Sybase came along
> and
> > > > > > > > AUTOMATICALLY upgraded you to be EA Studio customers (when PB
> 7
> > > came
> > > > > out).
> > > > > > > > Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the
> > > PowerBuilder
> > > > > > > > upgrade?!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to
> be
> > > one
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > you.  Give it up.  Spare us the typically excuses and finger
> > > pointing
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > > why all of this is actually OUR fault or why this is actually
> a
> > > GOOD
> > > > > thing
> > > > > > > > for us or why we should be the one marketing your freaking
> product
> > > > > because
> > > > > > > > it will be more believable coming from us.  You have
> continually
> > > SH*T
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > > your customers.  At this point it doesn't even matter how good
> or
> > > bad
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > product is.  It doesn't matter that there happen to be a few
> good
> > > > > Sybase
> > > > > > > > engineers who do what they can in this and other newsgroups to
> > > help
> > > > > out.
> > > > > > > > You are so far behind in the application server market that it
> > > just
> > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > matter anyway.  That battle was lost a long time ago; if you
> > > really
> > > > > think
> > > > > > > > you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must
> figure it
> > > > > will be
> > > > > > > > through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how they
> can
> > > > > leverage
> > > > > > > > PB within EA Server.  Problem is, you can't piss off those
> > > customers
> > > > > FAST
> > > > > > > > enough, apparently.  So now you've come up with another w
> > > > > > > > ay to do it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Folks, do yourselves a favor:
> > > > > > > > http://developer.bea.com/index.jsp
> > > > > > > > http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > __________________________
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
> > > > > > > System Architect
> > > > > > > ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
> > > > > > > The University of Sydney
> > > > > > > Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
> > > > > > > Mobile: +61 403 341 474
> > > > > > > Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >

0
David
6/14/2001 9:13:06 PM
I'm afraid I don't know the equation for that -- I guess it's a combination
of newsgroup posts, CaseExpress enhancement requests, feedback though
regional sales reps, etc.

Calculated risk? Definitely. What the odds are? I don't know. What I do know
is that Sybase is likely to take a loss of a PB account switching to Java
and __not__ buying PowerJ, as long as they buy an EAServer license. Java
doesn't open a migration path away from EAServer as far as Sybase is
concerns; on the contrary -- it expands opportunities. Switching an IDE
doesn't mean switching an app server, and any decision maker that decides to
tie the two is likely making a costly mistake.

Marketing? We all know what the past was like. This is also work in progress
and is changing, but it doesn't happen overnight.

As a consultant, adding Java to your toolbelt is invaluable. However, you
shouldn't just say "Hey, I can do WebLogic and WebSpehere now", but rather,
like Dean mentioned, educate your prospective clients and say "I can also do
EAServer, which could be a better and even cheaper solution for you guys
than the other two".

--
<hopethishelps />
Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231

"David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
news:3B29167A.30BEBEEE@prescriber.com...
> I understand the demand side of the equation.  How does Sybase gauge
demand for
> a particular port - newsgroup posts, account rep feedback or what?
>
> I still argue that Sybase is taking a calculated risk?  Again, if I'm
migrating
> to Linux and forced to port to Java, a whole new world opens up for me as
a
> developer.  This is a two part problem.  Decision makers are unfamiliar
with
> EAServer and Java opens up a migration path away from EAServer (at least
for PB
> shops).  It wouldn't be so bad if the general IT world knew about
EAServer.
>
> RedHat 6.1 and SuSE 6.3 would be a good starting point.  Sybase chose not
to
> port to all flavors of Unix.  Likewise, they don't have to port to all
flavors
> of Linux.  It's just my opinion (and maybe I'm way out in left field -
wouldn't
> be the first time) but, I believe, Sybase is risking loosing PB developers
to
> Java, which isn't a bad thing for developers.  It is a potentially bad
thing for
> Sybase, based on EAServer's industry status.
>
> Look, I'm a developer, but I've been around long enough to know how most
buy
> decisions are made.  Most CIOs, CTOs, etc. rarely solicit developers
feedback
> when making the buy decision (to most of these people, developers are a
lower
> form of life).  When they do solicit feedback, they usually keep asking
until
> someone agrees with what they've already decided.  Just my experience.
These
> people are conservative by nature and are busy covering their back sides.
I
> hate to keep regurgitating this old saying but, "No one has ever been
fired for
> buying IBM" (I use this as a metaphor - not as an endorsement for IBM).
Sad to
> say, that's basically the CIO credo.
>
> I consult and have found little interest/knowledge of EAServer.  Everyone
asks
> about WebSphere and WebLogic.  If I'm now a Java developer I can start
saying
> "Yes, I can do that".
>
> "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:
>
> > It is written in C++, but C++ can be written with portability in mind,
and
> > it can be written without. Based on past experience with PB-Unix, Sybase
has
> > used the Wind-U libraries to map Win32 API and MFC code to the
equivalent
> > Unix code. Wind-U did not have Linux support until very recently, and
the
> > only flavors they support right now are RedHat 6.1 and SuSE 6.3.
> >
> > Yes, Sybase already have ported to Unix, but those are old -- 5.0 and
6.0. I
> > don't know exactly how much it cost to port PB5 and 6 to Unix, but it'll
> > cost much more to port 7.0 and 8.0 to Linux, with all the new features
and
> > Jaguar integration.
> >
> > I agree with you 100% that Linux is gaining popularity, but if Sybase
can't
> > secure enough sales from this port, then it's not worth their
investment. As
> > I said, it's all about demand.
> >
> > --
> > <hopethishelps />
> > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
> >
> > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > news:3B28EB72.2141CA67@prescriber.com...
> > > Roy,
> > >
> > > I'm not a Unix/Linux internals guy, but I find it hard to believe it
will
> > cost
> > > millions of dollars to port to Linux.  Isn't PB written in C++?
Doesn't
> > Sybase
> > > already have PB Unix ports?  Are they going to spend those saved
millions
> > on
> > > marketing?
> > >
> > > The point I was trying to make is, Linux is gaining popularity as we
> > speak.
> > > Forcing Windows PB developers (who want to move to Linux and not
Solaris,
> > AIX or
> > > HP-UX) to start using Java will remove the Sybase (i.e. PB) handcuffs.
> > These
> > > people will no longer be tied to PB and Sybase.  I guess that's a
> > calculated
> > > risk Sybase is willing to make.  Keep in mind, developers don't make
> > application
> > > server buy decisions, "informed" executives who read trade rags,
without
> > > EAServer advertising, make those decisions.
> > >
> > > Try this snare: One of these "informed" executives just read an
article
> > touting
> > > Linux and decides that's the way to go; the developers inform this
person
> > that
> > > PB isn't supported on Linux and a migration to Linux would mean
porting to
> > Java;
> > > the "informed" executive says OK - let's port to Java and move to
WebLogic
> > or
> > > WebSphere.  Bye bye Sybase.  At this point, mustering up demand for a
PB
> > Linux
> > > port will be futile.  A proactive approach is always more effective
than a
> > > reactive approach (management 101).
> > >
> > > IBM offers FREE developer versions of WebSphere.  Sybase used to
provide a
> > > developers version of EAServer for free.  I guess Sybase had another
> > brainstorm
> > > when they decided to start charging for it.
> > >
> > > Obviously, this logic isn't very obvious.  I know you'll be happy to
hear
> > this,
> > > and I hate to say it (because I really like PB/EAServer), once ported
to
> > Java -
> > > bye bye Sybase (IBM is waiting with open arms).
> > >
> > > I've said enough.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> > >
> > > > David,
> > > >
> > > > Get enough people that share your point of view and you may get
Sybase
> > to
> > > > change their mind -- the decision not to port PB to Linux was
primarilly
> > > > based on demand, which apparently is not there yet, at least not in
> > numbers
> > > > that could justify spending the millions of $s it would cost to do
so.
> > > >
> > > > Vote soon, vote often...
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > <hopethishelps />
> > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > > > http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
> > > >
> > > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:3B286882.87C3C6DD@prescriber.com...
> > > > > An additional two cents...
> > > > >
> > > > > Sybase has decided NOT to port PB to Linux.  So, there is no
> > transition
> > > > path for
> > > > > those of us who are fed up with Windows on Intel, but who would
like
> > to
> > > > stay with
> > > > > Intel.  The reason given, "Java will be the development platform
of
> > choice
> > > > on
> > > > > Linux".  If I have to port my PB components to Java in order to
run on
> > > > Linux, I am
> > > > > no longer tied to EAServer (since it's the only application server
> > that
> > > > supports
> > > > > the PBVM).  The decision makers at Sybase may not think so, but
> > they're
> > > > providing,
> > > > > if not encouraging, a migration away from Sybase products for
those
> > long
> > > > time PB
> > > > > developers (which, I would imagine, is most of your customer
base).
> > > > Windows is
> > > > > fine for in-house applications of small to medium size, but
Unix/Linux
> > is
> > > > the way
> > > > > to go for industrial strength web applications.  I know this, I'm
not
> > > > comfortable
> > > > > deploying an ASP application, that potentially could be taking
> > hundreds of
> > > > > thousands of hits, on Windows.  I don't care what Microsoft says
about
> > > > Windows
> > > > > 2000, I don't believe it can hack it (I'm not real interested in
> > > > clustering 10+
> > > > > machines).  In addition, I just don't know what to think about
> > PB/EAServer
> > > > for
> > > > > Solaris, AIX and HP-UX.  They just don't seem to be getting much
air
> > play
> > > > on the
> > > > > newsgroups.  I'll deploy Apache/Tomcat/Jarkarta on Linux as a web
> > server
> > > > on the
> > > > > front end and put my Oracle database on Linux on the back end.  It
> > sure
> > > > would be
> > > > > nice to know I could deploy PB/EAServer on Linux in the middle.
> > > > >
> > > > > Let's face facts, probably 98% of PB/EAServer developers are
> > Windows/Intel
> > > > based.
> > > > > That's where they must stay if they want to stick with PB and
Intel.
> > > > >
> > > > > Don't get me wrong, I'm a long time PB developer who has migrated
a
> > Web.PB
> > > > > application to EAServer.  I'm ready to migrate to Linux.  Again,
If
> > I'm
> > > > forced to
> > > > > port to Java, a whole new world opens up.  Since Sybase doesn't
> > actively
> > > > market
> > > > > EAServer, no one asks or knows about EAServer.  Everyone asks
about
> > > > WebLogic and
> > > > > WebSphere.  I don't know who makes the decisions at Sybase, but
> > they're
> > > > dropping
> > > > > the ball big time.  I keep hearing how Sybase is getting there act
> > > > together, but
> > > > > nothing has changed.  PB and EAServer are outstanding products.
The
> > > > technical
> > > > > people behind these products should be proud.  Wish I could say
the
> > same
> > > > for Sybase
> > > > > marketing.
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, I guess that was about 10 cents worth...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > >>Here's the latest: Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We
just
> > > > released
> > > > > > >>PowerBuilder 8  today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the
way,
> > you
> > > > can't
> > > > > > >>actually GET it  now, but we sure did want to let you know
that it
> > is
> > > > > > available.
> > > > > > Well its kind of nice to know in advance so you can build into
your
> > > > project
> > > > > > plans when you will migrate and who will be involved etc. How
long
> > did
> > > > > > microsoft make us to wait for win95????
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >>Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the
> > PowerBuilder
> > > > > > >>upgrade?!
> > > > > > Sybase are a profit organisation and if PB8 is such a good
product (
> > > > which I
> > > > > > believe it will be ) then they deserve to reap the rewards from
it.
> > I
> > > > would
> > > > > > imagine that if you developed a good product you would want some
> > money
> > > > for it?
> > > > > > I don't imagine development tools for Oracle, BEA or IBM come
cheap
> > > > either.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >>Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to
be
> > one
> > > > of
> > > > > > >>you.  Give it up.
> > > > > > Well I admit to being a sybase defender and attacker. I think
they
> > have
> > > > a great
> > > > > > suite of products and they certainly have proven themselves over
the
> > > > years. EAS
> > > > > > is a superb product. On the other hand I agree that marketing
and
> > > > support need
> > > > > > some polishing, but those facts alone are not good enough
reasons to
> > > > give up on
> > > > > > solid development tools.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >>if you really think you are going to compete with BEA and IBM,
> > then
> > > > you must
> > > > > > >>figure it will be through attracting PowerBuilder shops by
> > pointing
> > > > out how
> > > > > > they >>can leverage PB within EA Server.
> > > > > > I agree with you on this but you're just bringing up what has
been
> > > > discussed (
> > > > > > in a better tone ) on many occasions before.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best of luck
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So_Long_Yu wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bleak at best, given the typical Sybase mismanagement of
product
> > > > marketing,
> > > > > > > customer service, etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Here's the latest:
> > > > > > > Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released
> > PowerBuilder 8
> > > > > > > today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't
actually
> > GET
> > > > it
> > > > > > > now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is
available.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now that's interesting -- the product is released, but not
> > available.
> > > > > > > Clever.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oh, and all you EA Studio customers -- guess what else Sybase
has
> > come
> > > > up
> > > > > > > with?  Despite the fact that PowerBuilder is a part of EA
Studio,
> > and
> > > > > > > despite the fact that you may be an EA Studio and EA Server
> > customer,
> > > > you
> > > > > > > are NOT entitled to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade!  Yep, you got
it.
> > > > This is
> > > > > > > even better than it sounds, because many of you, like us, were
> > > > originally
> > > > > > > PowerBuilder Enterprise customers, and then Sybase came along
and
> > > > > > > AUTOMATICALLY upgraded you to be EA Studio customers (when PB
7
> > came
> > > > out).
> > > > > > > Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the
> > PowerBuilder
> > > > > > > upgrade?!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to
be
> > one
> > > > of
> > > > > > > you.  Give it up.  Spare us the typically excuses and finger
> > pointing
> > > > about
> > > > > > > why all of this is actually OUR fault or why this is actually
a
> > GOOD
> > > > thing
> > > > > > > for us or why we should be the one marketing your freaking
product
> > > > because
> > > > > > > it will be more believable coming from us.  You have
continually
> > SH*T
> > > > on
> > > > > > > your customers.  At this point it doesn't even matter how good
or
> > bad
> > > > the
> > > > > > > product is.  It doesn't matter that there happen to be a few
good
> > > > Sybase
> > > > > > > engineers who do what they can in this and other newsgroups to
> > help
> > > > out.
> > > > > > > You are so far behind in the application server market that it
> > just
> > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > matter anyway.  That battle was lost a long time ago; if you
> > really
> > > > think
> > > > > > > you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must
figure it
> > > > will be
> > > > > > > through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how they
can
> > > > leverage
> > > > > > > PB within EA Server.  Problem is, you can't piss off those
> > customers
> > > > FAST
> > > > > > > enough, apparently.  So now you've come up with another w
> > > > > > > ay to do it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Folks, do yourselves a favor:
> > > > > > > http://developer.bea.com/index.jsp
> > > > > > > http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > __________________________
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
> > > > > > System Architect
> > > > > > ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
> > > > > > The University of Sydney
> > > > > > Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
> > > > > > Mobile: +61 403 341 474
> > > > > > Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711
> > > > >
> > >
>


0
Roy
6/14/2001 9:24:10 PM

"Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:

> I'm afraid I don't know the equation for that -- I guess it's a combination
> of newsgroup posts, CaseExpress enhancement requests, feedback though
> regional sales reps, etc.
>
> Calculated risk? Definitely. What the odds are? I don't know. What I do know
> is that Sybase is likely to take a loss of a PB account switching to Java
> and __not__ buying PowerJ, as long as they buy an EAServer license.

I guess my point is, if the decision makers read only about WebSphere and
WebLogic, chances are they won't be buying an EAServer license when forced to
switch to Java.  Especially, since WebSphere offers a free developers license.

> Java
> doesn't open a migration path away from EAServer as far as Sybase is
> concerns; on the contrary -- it expands opportunities.

Sure, it expands opportunities.  Opportunities to move away from a relatively
unknown product to a more widely know product.  Remember who makes the buy
decisions.  Not always the most qualified or knowledgeable people...

> Switching an IDE
> doesn't mean switching an app server, and any decision maker that decides to
> tie the two is likely making a costly mistake.

I agree, keep in mind who the decision makers are - not developers.

>
>
> Marketing? We all know what the past was like. This is also work in progress
> and is changing, but it doesn't happen overnight.

Agreed, but it needs to start happening soon.  I don't know the advertising side
of the business but, I would think buying advertising space doesn't take a great
deal of work, does it?

>
>
> As a consultant, adding Java to your toolbelt is invaluable. However, you
> shouldn't just say "Hey, I can do WebLogic and WebSpehere now", but rather,
> like Dean mentioned, educate your prospective clients and say "I can also do
> EAServer, which could be a better and even cheaper solution for you guys
> than the other two".

I agree, adding Java is no detriment.  It would certainly provide more business
opportunities.  Sounds like you're asking me to do what the marketing people
should be doing.  I don't mind doing that.  However, it would far easier to
mention EAServer if the CIO/CTO has read something about it ahead of time.

OK, It's obvious Sybase isn't going to port PB to Linux, sigh.  So let's stop
beating this horse to death.  I lose - uncle!

>
>
> --
> <hopethishelps />
> Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
>
> "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> news:3B29167A.30BEBEEE@prescriber.com...
> > I understand the demand side of the equation.  How does Sybase gauge
> demand for
> > a particular port - newsgroup posts, account rep feedback or what?
> >
> > I still argue that Sybase is taking a calculated risk?  Again, if I'm
> migrating
> > to Linux and forced to port to Java, a whole new world opens up for me as
> a
> > developer.  This is a two part problem.  Decision makers are unfamiliar
> with
> > EAServer and Java opens up a migration path away from EAServer (at least
> for PB
> > shops).  It wouldn't be so bad if the general IT world knew about
> EAServer.
> >
> > RedHat 6.1 and SuSE 6.3 would be a good starting point.  Sybase chose not
> to
> > port to all flavors of Unix.  Likewise, they don't have to port to all
> flavors
> > of Linux.  It's just my opinion (and maybe I'm way out in left field -
> wouldn't
> > be the first time) but, I believe, Sybase is risking loosing PB developers
> to
> > Java, which isn't a bad thing for developers.  It is a potentially bad
> thing for
> > Sybase, based on EAServer's industry status.
> >
> > Look, I'm a developer, but I've been around long enough to know how most
> buy
> > decisions are made.  Most CIOs, CTOs, etc. rarely solicit developers
> feedback
> > when making the buy decision (to most of these people, developers are a
> lower
> > form of life).  When they do solicit feedback, they usually keep asking
> until
> > someone agrees with what they've already decided.  Just my experience.
> These
> > people are conservative by nature and are busy covering their back sides.
> I
> > hate to keep regurgitating this old saying but, "No one has ever been
> fired for
> > buying IBM" (I use this as a metaphor - not as an endorsement for IBM).
> Sad to
> > say, that's basically the CIO credo.
> >
> > I consult and have found little interest/knowledge of EAServer.  Everyone
> asks
> > about WebSphere and WebLogic.  If I'm now a Java developer I can start
> saying
> > "Yes, I can do that".
> >
> > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> >
> > > It is written in C++, but C++ can be written with portability in mind,
> and
> > > it can be written without. Based on past experience with PB-Unix, Sybase
> has
> > > used the Wind-U libraries to map Win32 API and MFC code to the
> equivalent
> > > Unix code. Wind-U did not have Linux support until very recently, and
> the
> > > only flavors they support right now are RedHat 6.1 and SuSE 6.3.
> > >
> > > Yes, Sybase already have ported to Unix, but those are old -- 5.0 and
> 6.0. I
> > > don't know exactly how much it cost to port PB5 and 6 to Unix, but it'll
> > > cost much more to port 7.0 and 8.0 to Linux, with all the new features
> and
> > > Jaguar integration.
> > >
> > > I agree with you 100% that Linux is gaining popularity, but if Sybase
> can't
> > > secure enough sales from this port, then it's not worth their
> investment. As
> > > I said, it's all about demand.
> > >
> > > --
> > > <hopethishelps />
> > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > > http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
> > >
> > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3B28EB72.2141CA67@prescriber.com...
> > > > Roy,
> > > >
> > > > I'm not a Unix/Linux internals guy, but I find it hard to believe it
> will
> > > cost
> > > > millions of dollars to port to Linux.  Isn't PB written in C++?
> Doesn't
> > > Sybase
> > > > already have PB Unix ports?  Are they going to spend those saved
> millions
> > > on
> > > > marketing?
> > > >
> > > > The point I was trying to make is, Linux is gaining popularity as we
> > > speak.
> > > > Forcing Windows PB developers (who want to move to Linux and not
> Solaris,
> > > AIX or
> > > > HP-UX) to start using Java will remove the Sybase (i.e. PB) handcuffs.
> > > These
> > > > people will no longer be tied to PB and Sybase.  I guess that's a
> > > calculated
> > > > risk Sybase is willing to make.  Keep in mind, developers don't make
> > > application
> > > > server buy decisions, "informed" executives who read trade rags,
> without
> > > > EAServer advertising, make those decisions.
> > > >
> > > > Try this snare: One of these "informed" executives just read an
> article
> > > touting
> > > > Linux and decides that's the way to go; the developers inform this
> person
> > > that
> > > > PB isn't supported on Linux and a migration to Linux would mean
> porting to
> > > Java;
> > > > the "informed" executive says OK - let's port to Java and move to
> WebLogic
> > > or
> > > > WebSphere.  Bye bye Sybase.  At this point, mustering up demand for a
> PB
> > > Linux
> > > > port will be futile.  A proactive approach is always more effective
> than a
> > > > reactive approach (management 101).
> > > >
> > > > IBM offers FREE developer versions of WebSphere.  Sybase used to
> provide a
> > > > developers version of EAServer for free.  I guess Sybase had another
> > > brainstorm
> > > > when they decided to start charging for it.
> > > >
> > > > Obviously, this logic isn't very obvious.  I know you'll be happy to
> hear
> > > this,
> > > > and I hate to say it (because I really like PB/EAServer), once ported
> to
> > > Java -
> > > > bye bye Sybase (IBM is waiting with open arms).
> > > >
> > > > I've said enough.
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > > >
> > > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > David,
> > > > >
> > > > > Get enough people that share your point of view and you may get
> Sybase
> > > to
> > > > > change their mind -- the decision not to port PB to Linux was
> primarilly
> > > > > based on demand, which apparently is not there yet, at least not in
> > > numbers
> > > > > that could justify spending the millions of $s it would cost to do
> so.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vote soon, vote often...
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > <hopethishelps />
> > > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > > > > http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
> > > > >
> > > > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3B286882.87C3C6DD@prescriber.com...
> > > > > > An additional two cents...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sybase has decided NOT to port PB to Linux.  So, there is no
> > > transition
> > > > > path for
> > > > > > those of us who are fed up with Windows on Intel, but who would
> like
> > > to
> > > > > stay with
> > > > > > Intel.  The reason given, "Java will be the development platform
> of
> > > choice
> > > > > on
> > > > > > Linux".  If I have to port my PB components to Java in order to
> run on
> > > > > Linux, I am
> > > > > > no longer tied to EAServer (since it's the only application server
> > > that
> > > > > supports
> > > > > > the PBVM).  The decision makers at Sybase may not think so, but
> > > they're
> > > > > providing,
> > > > > > if not encouraging, a migration away from Sybase products for
> those
> > > long
> > > > > time PB
> > > > > > developers (which, I would imagine, is most of your customer
> base).
> > > > > Windows is
> > > > > > fine for in-house applications of small to medium size, but
> Unix/Linux
> > > is
> > > > > the way
> > > > > > to go for industrial strength web applications.  I know this, I'm
> not
> > > > > comfortable
> > > > > > deploying an ASP application, that potentially could be taking
> > > hundreds of
> > > > > > thousands of hits, on Windows.  I don't care what Microsoft says
> about
> > > > > Windows
> > > > > > 2000, I don't believe it can hack it (I'm not real interested in
> > > > > clustering 10+
> > > > > > machines).  In addition, I just don't know what to think about
> > > PB/EAServer
> > > > > for
> > > > > > Solaris, AIX and HP-UX.  They just don't seem to be getting much
> air
> > > play
> > > > > on the
> > > > > > newsgroups.  I'll deploy Apache/Tomcat/Jarkarta on Linux as a web
> > > server
> > > > > on the
> > > > > > front end and put my Oracle database on Linux on the back end.  It
> > > sure
> > > > > would be
> > > > > > nice to know I could deploy PB/EAServer on Linux in the middle.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let's face facts, probably 98% of PB/EAServer developers are
> > > Windows/Intel
> > > > > based.
> > > > > > That's where they must stay if they want to stick with PB and
> Intel.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Don't get me wrong, I'm a long time PB developer who has migrated
> a
> > > Web.PB
> > > > > > application to EAServer.  I'm ready to migrate to Linux.  Again,
> If
> > > I'm
> > > > > forced to
> > > > > > port to Java, a whole new world opens up.  Since Sybase doesn't
> > > actively
> > > > > market
> > > > > > EAServer, no one asks or knows about EAServer.  Everyone asks
> about
> > > > > WebLogic and
> > > > > > WebSphere.  I don't know who makes the decisions at Sybase, but
> > > they're
> > > > > dropping
> > > > > > the ball big time.  I keep hearing how Sybase is getting there act
> > > > > together, but
> > > > > > nothing has changed.  PB and EAServer are outstanding products.
> The
> > > > > technical
> > > > > > people behind these products should be proud.  Wish I could say
> the
> > > same
> > > > > for Sybase
> > > > > > marketing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well, I guess that was about 10 cents worth...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >>Here's the latest: Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We
> just
> > > > > released
> > > > > > > >>PowerBuilder 8  today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the
> way,
> > > you
> > > > > can't
> > > > > > > >>actually GET it  now, but we sure did want to let you know
> that it
> > > is
> > > > > > > available.
> > > > > > > Well its kind of nice to know in advance so you can build into
> your
> > > > > project
> > > > > > > plans when you will migrate and who will be involved etc. How
> long
> > > did
> > > > > > > microsoft make us to wait for win95????
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >>Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the
> > > PowerBuilder
> > > > > > > >>upgrade?!
> > > > > > > Sybase are a profit organisation and if PB8 is such a good
> product (
> > > > > which I
> > > > > > > believe it will be ) then they deserve to reap the rewards from
> it.
> > > I
> > > > > would
> > > > > > > imagine that if you developed a good product you would want some
> > > money
> > > > > for it?
> > > > > > > I don't imagine development tools for Oracle, BEA or IBM come
> cheap
> > > > > either.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >>Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to
> be
> > > one
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > >>you.  Give it up.
> > > > > > > Well I admit to being a sybase defender and attacker. I think
> they
> > > have
> > > > > a great
> > > > > > > suite of products and they certainly have proven themselves over
> the
> > > > > years. EAS
> > > > > > > is a superb product. On the other hand I agree that marketing
> and
> > > > > support need
> > > > > > > some polishing, but those facts alone are not good enough
> reasons to
> > > > > give up on
> > > > > > > solid development tools.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >>if you really think you are going to compete with BEA and IBM,
> > > then
> > > > > you must
> > > > > > > >>figure it will be through attracting PowerBuilder shops by
> > > pointing
> > > > > out how
> > > > > > > they >>can leverage PB within EA Server.
> > > > > > > I agree with you on this but you're just bringing up what has
> been
> > > > > discussed (
> > > > > > > in a better tone ) on many occasions before.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best of luck
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So_Long_Yu wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bleak at best, given the typical Sybase mismanagement of
> product
> > > > > marketing,
> > > > > > > > customer service, etc.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Here's the latest:
> > > > > > > > Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released
> > > PowerBuilder 8
> > > > > > > > today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't
> actually
> > > GET
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > > now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is
> available.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now that's interesting -- the product is released, but not
> > > available.
> > > > > > > > Clever.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Oh, and all you EA Studio customers -- guess what else Sybase
> has
> > > come
> > > > > up
> > > > > > > > with?  Despite the fact that PowerBuilder is a part of EA
> Studio,
> > > and
> > > > > > > > despite the fact that you may be an EA Studio and EA Server
> > > customer,
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > > are NOT entitled to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade!  Yep, you got
> it.
> > > > > This is
> > > > > > > > even better than it sounds, because many of you, like us, were
> > > > > originally
> > > > > > > > PowerBuilder Enterprise customers, and then Sybase came along
> and
> > > > > > > > AUTOMATICALLY upgraded you to be EA Studio customers (when PB
> 7
> > > came
> > > > > out).
> > > > > > > > Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the
> > > PowerBuilder
> > > > > > > > upgrade?!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to
> be
> > > one
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > you.  Give it up.  Spare us the typically excuses and finger
> > > pointing
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > > why all of this is actually OUR fault or why this is actually
> a
> > > GOOD
> > > > > thing
> > > > > > > > for us or why we should be the one marketing your freaking
> product
> > > > > because
> > > > > > > > it will be more believable coming from us.  You have
> continually
> > > SH*T
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > > your customers.  At this point it doesn't even matter how good
> or
> > > bad
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > product is.  It doesn't matter that there happen to be a few
> good
> > > > > Sybase
> > > > > > > > engineers who do what they can in this and other newsgroups to
> > > help
> > > > > out.
> > > > > > > > You are so far behind in the application server market that it
> > > just
> > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > matter anyway.  That battle was lost a long time ago; if you
> > > really
> > > > > think
> > > > > > > > you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must
> figure it
> > > > > will be
> > > > > > > > through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how they
> can
> > > > > leverage
> > > > > > > > PB within EA Server.  Problem is, you can't piss off those
> > > customers
> > > > > FAST
> > > > > > > > enough, apparently.  So now you've come up with another w
> > > > > > > > ay to do it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Folks, do yourselves a favor:
> > > > > > > > http://developer.bea.com/index.jsp
> > > > > > > > http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > __________________________
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
> > > > > > > System Architect
> > > > > > > ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
> > > > > > > The University of Sydney
> > > > > > > Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
> > > > > > > Mobile: +61 403 341 474
> > > > > > > Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >

0
David
6/14/2001 10:04:42 PM
Good comment ;-)
Probably a disgruntled cobol programmer who dislikes all 4GL languagaes.
A.

"Dean Jones [TeamSybase]" wrote:

> I have to as who the "We" is that you keep referring to. What company would
> that be?
>
> You obviously like Sybase tools, your here in the forums OR your one of
> "those" types that complain about what ever tool you are using. That is if
> you were using WebSphere you would be in IBM's forums complaininng about
> WebSphere taking too much memory and costing too much.
>
> --
> Dean Jones TeamSybase
> Sybase Defenders
> PowerTeam, Inc.
> www.powerobjects.com
> WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
> Come visit our booth at TechWave
> EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar
>
> <So_Long_Yu> wrote in message
> news:55B338593D93DC45005B812485256A6B.0014A0D385256A6B@webforums...
> > >>>Sybase are a profit organisation and if PB8 is such a good >>>product (
> > which I
> > >>>believe it will be ) then they deserve to reap the rewards >>>from it.
> I
> > would
> > >>>imagine that if you developed a good product you would want >>>some
> > money for it?
> > >>>I don't imagine development tools for Oracle, BEA or IBM come >>>cheap
> > either.
> > First of all you're missing the point.  But since you brought it up,
> > believe me -- no one knows better than we do just exactly how well Syba$e
> > "reap[s] the rewards from [their products]".
> >
> > Anyway, in a recent call to Sybase Tech Support, we were told that a
> > problem we are experiencing will be resolved in PowerBuilder 8.  Great, we
> > thought, but when we expressed concern over how long it would be until we
> > could get our hands on it, the rep told us emphatically, don't worry -- it
> > will be out in June and probably before the middle of June.  It should be
> > pretty clear that an ANNOUNCEMENT of a product will do us no good towards
> > resolving a bug in the current version.  Now, either the tech knew about
> > the situation and was intentionally bs-ing us, or Sybase has yet again
> > failed to keep their customer service / tech support people informed as to
> > the plan.
> >
> > >>>>>Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used
> > >>>to be one of
> > >>>>>you.  Give it up.
> > >>>Well I admit to being a sybase defender and attacker. I think >>>they
> > have a great
> > >>>suite of products and they certainly have proven themselves >>>over the
> > years. EAS
> > >>>is a superb product. On the other hand I agree that marketing >>>and
> > support need
> > >>>some polishing, but those facts alone are not good enough >>>reasons to
> > give up on
> > >>>solid development tools.
> > A) We would argue with you that is EXACTLY these facts that provide the
> > reason why many people already HAVE left Sybase in favor of other vendors
> > and products.
> >
> > B) It is NOT just these facts, by the way.  Our opinion, your opinion, or
> > the opinion of whomever is irrelevant by itself.  However, the overall
> > INDUSTRY's opinion does matter.  And the industry barely even knows what
> EA
> > Server is.  Go ahead, take the challenge.  Find one MAJOR (minor?) trade
> > rag mentioning EA Server.  Of those, how many mention it in a POSITIVE
> > light?  Now attempt the same thing for WebSphere, Weblogic, etc.
> >
> >
> > >>>>>if you really think you are going to compete with BEA and >>>IBM,
> then
> > you must
> > >>>>>figure it will be through attracting PowerBuilder shops by
> >>>pointing
> > out how
> > >>>they >>can leverage PB within EA Server.
> > >>>I agree with you on this but you're just bringing up what has >>>been
> > discussed (
> > >>>in a better tone ) on many occasions before.
> > Yes, you see.  It's the unhappy customers' TONE that is the cause of all
> of
> > Sybase's problems.  Thank you for proving that point.  And, the fact that
> > something has been brought up before does not reduce its importance
> > (despite what Clinton might have tried to convince us of).  Now, maybe if
> > Sybase would ADDRESS some of the issues that have been -- and continue to
> > be -- raised, instead of shrugging their shoulders and saying "we've heard
> > it all before," some progress might be achieved.
> >
> > It's YOUR throat.  Each employee, consultant, etc. has to be willing to
> > bank their marketability on the product(s) they work with.  And to make
> > that decision a prudent one, a person MUST consider not just the technical
> > superiority of the product (developer's point of view), but the market's
> > perception of it.
> >
> > One last thought, along the same lines.  Even if Sybase could have
> competed
> > on technical superiority alone (and we don't believe they could have), the
> > time for that has long since passed.  That is, now that all the remaining
> > players are (or shortly will be) J2EE-compliant, there is no compelling
> > reason to purchase one product over another unless that product provides
> > you a clear competitive advantage (price, special feature, etc.).  Sybase
> > might have a few of those to offer, depending upon your point of view, but
> > that never comes into play because the vast majority of the people looking
> > for application servers never even SEE Sybase's offering -- due to its
> lack
> > of presence in the market.  Game over, unfortunately.

--
__________________________

Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
System Architect
ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
The University of Sydney
Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
Mobile: +61 403 341 474
Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711


0
Adam
6/15/2001 7:34:41 AM
David,

See comments inline...

"David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
news:3B2934FA.353A127A@prescriber.com...
>
>
<snip>
> I guess my point is, if the decision makers read only about WebSphere and
> WebLogic, chances are they won't be buying an EAServer license when forced
to
> switch to Java.  Especially, since WebSphere offers a free developers
license.

Valid point. Just FYI, decision makers are getting introduced to EAServer
(and related technologies like E-Portal, Financial Fusion and iAnywhere
m-Business Studio) in both print and media, targeted exactly at those
"decision makers" (read: don't look for it in PBDJ or JDJ, although these
publications do have ads for developers.)

> Sure, it expands opportunities.  Opportunities to move away from a
relatively
> unknown product to a more widely know product.  Remember who makes the buy
> decisions.  Not always the most qualified or knowledgeable people...

As I mentioned, that's changing, but it won't happen overnight.

> Agreed, but it needs to start happening soon.  I don't know the
advertising side
> of the business but, I would think buying advertising space doesn't take a
great
> deal of work, does it?

Buying ad space is not the issue -- designing ad campaigns that hit the nail
on the head is. That takes time...

> I agree, adding Java is no detriment.  It would certainly provide more
business
> opportunities.  Sounds like you're asking me to do what the marketing
people
> should be doing.  I don't mind doing that.  However, it would far easier
to
> mention EAServer if the CIO/CTO has read something about it ahead of time.

I am not asking you to do anything -- I am telling you what I and other
TeamSybase folks are doing -- we believe in Sybase product and we evangelise
them. What you're asking is for Sybase to do the leg work, so you can reap
the consulting gig benefits -- not to say that this is inappropriate; on the
contrary. Nevertheless, if you'll just sit there and wait for it to happen,
it will, but it will take a while. If you take the active approach and
parttake in the evalgelism effort, you'll reap the benefits much sooner.

> OK, It's obvious Sybase isn't going to port PB to Linux, sigh.  So let's
stop
> beating this horse to death.  I lose - uncle!

Linux? Is that what this was all about? <g>

I agree. But in all seriousness, many of this rant sessions (keep'em
comin' -- they keep us all sharp) boil down to one thing; do you believe in
a particular Sybase product? If so, step up on your soap box and speak
out -- we'll al benefit from it. Have a problem with a product? By all
means, tell us about it in the newsgroups, but don't stop there; Open a case
and follow up.


--
<hopethishelps />
Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231




0
Roy
6/15/2001 12:37:32 PM
Just a minor question - I'm not going to get into this thread. As a prior
"Sybse Defender", would you mind identifying who you really are?

thanks,

So_Long_Yu wrote:

> Bleak at best, given the typical Sybase mismanagement of product marketing,
> customer service, etc.
>
> Here's the latest:
> Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released PowerBuilder 8
> today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't actually GET it
> now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is available.
>
> Now that's interesting -- the product is released, but not available.
> Clever.
>
> Oh, and all you EA Studio customers -- guess what else Sybase has come up
> with?  Despite the fact that PowerBuilder is a part of EA Studio, and
> despite the fact that you may be an EA Studio and EA Server customer, you
> are NOT entitled to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade!  Yep, you got it.  This is
> even better than it sounds, because many of you, like us, were originally
> PowerBuilder Enterprise customers, and then Sybase came along and
> AUTOMATICALLY upgraded you to be EA Studio customers (when PB 7 came out).
> Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the PowerBuilder
> upgrade?!
>
> Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one of
> you.  Give it up.  Spare us the typically excuses and finger pointing about
> why all of this is actually OUR fault or why this is actually a GOOD thing
> for us or why we should be the one marketing your freaking product because
> it will be more believable coming from us.  You have continually SH*T on
> your customers.  At this point it doesn't even matter how good or bad the
> product is.  It doesn't matter that there happen to be a few good Sybase
> engineers who do what they can in this and other newsgroups to help out.
> You are so far behind in the application server market that it just doesn't
> matter anyway.  That battle was lost a long time ago; if you really think
> you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must figure it will be
> through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how they can leverage
> PB within EA Server.  Problem is, you can't piss off those customers FAST
> enough, apparently.  So now you've come up with another w
> ay to do it.
>
> Folks, do yourselves a favor:
> http://developer.bea.com/index.jsp
> http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/

--
Bill Green[TeamSybase]
-----------------------------------------------------------
Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards
http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/


Good Links to know, good places to go:

Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often
Find things like:
-- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available
-- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available
-- Components, White papers, articles and more
-- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
-- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)

PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com

Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


0
Bill
6/15/2001 2:15:53 PM
The transaction to Java is easier in EAServer. The team can move PB to
EAServer and convert components to Java as time and budget allows. That is a
project does not have to be all or nothing if a company stays with EAServer
as the convert from PB to Java. My opion is that once the PB code is in
EAServer as a component the customer will ask, why are we converting this to
Java again?

--
Dean Jones TeamSybase
PowerTeam, Inc.
www.powerobjects.com
WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
Come visit our booth at TechWave
EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar


"Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in
message news:PIYUkvR9AHA.301@forums.sybase.com...
> I'm afraid I don't know the equation for that -- I guess it's a
combination
> of newsgroup posts, CaseExpress enhancement requests, feedback though
> regional sales reps, etc.
>
> Calculated risk? Definitely. What the odds are? I don't know. What I do
know
> is that Sybase is likely to take a loss of a PB account switching to Java
> and __not__ buying PowerJ, as long as they buy an EAServer license. Java
> doesn't open a migration path away from EAServer as far as Sybase is
> concerns; on the contrary -- it expands opportunities. Switching an IDE
> doesn't mean switching an app server, and any decision maker that decides
to
> tie the two is likely making a costly mistake.
>
> Marketing? We all know what the past was like. This is also work in
progress
> and is changing, but it doesn't happen overnight.
>
> As a consultant, adding Java to your toolbelt is invaluable. However, you
> shouldn't just say "Hey, I can do WebLogic and WebSpehere now", but
rather,
> like Dean mentioned, educate your prospective clients and say "I can also
do
> EAServer, which could be a better and even cheaper solution for you guys
> than the other two".
>
> --
> <hopethishelps />
> Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
>
> "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> news:3B29167A.30BEBEEE@prescriber.com...
> > I understand the demand side of the equation.  How does Sybase gauge
> demand for
> > a particular port - newsgroup posts, account rep feedback or what?
> >
> > I still argue that Sybase is taking a calculated risk?  Again, if I'm
> migrating
> > to Linux and forced to port to Java, a whole new world opens up for me
as
> a
> > developer.  This is a two part problem.  Decision makers are unfamiliar
> with
> > EAServer and Java opens up a migration path away from EAServer (at least
> for PB
> > shops).  It wouldn't be so bad if the general IT world knew about
> EAServer.
> >
> > RedHat 6.1 and SuSE 6.3 would be a good starting point.  Sybase chose
not
> to
> > port to all flavors of Unix.  Likewise, they don't have to port to all
> flavors
> > of Linux.  It's just my opinion (and maybe I'm way out in left field -
> wouldn't
> > be the first time) but, I believe, Sybase is risking loosing PB
developers
> to
> > Java, which isn't a bad thing for developers.  It is a potentially bad
> thing for
> > Sybase, based on EAServer's industry status.
> >
> > Look, I'm a developer, but I've been around long enough to know how most
> buy
> > decisions are made.  Most CIOs, CTOs, etc. rarely solicit developers
> feedback
> > when making the buy decision (to most of these people, developers are a
> lower
> > form of life).  When they do solicit feedback, they usually keep asking
> until
> > someone agrees with what they've already decided.  Just my experience.
> These
> > people are conservative by nature and are busy covering their back
sides.
> I
> > hate to keep regurgitating this old saying but, "No one has ever been
> fired for
> > buying IBM" (I use this as a metaphor - not as an endorsement for IBM).
> Sad to
> > say, that's basically the CIO credo.
> >
> > I consult and have found little interest/knowledge of EAServer.
Everyone
> asks
> > about WebSphere and WebLogic.  If I'm now a Java developer I can start
> saying
> > "Yes, I can do that".
> >
> > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> >
> > > It is written in C++, but C++ can be written with portability in mind,
> and
> > > it can be written without. Based on past experience with PB-Unix,
Sybase
> has
> > > used the Wind-U libraries to map Win32 API and MFC code to the
> equivalent
> > > Unix code. Wind-U did not have Linux support until very recently, and
> the
> > > only flavors they support right now are RedHat 6.1 and SuSE 6.3.
> > >
> > > Yes, Sybase already have ported to Unix, but those are old -- 5.0 and
> 6.0. I
> > > don't know exactly how much it cost to port PB5 and 6 to Unix, but
it'll
> > > cost much more to port 7.0 and 8.0 to Linux, with all the new features
> and
> > > Jaguar integration.
> > >
> > > I agree with you 100% that Linux is gaining popularity, but if Sybase
> can't
> > > secure enough sales from this port, then it's not worth their
> investment. As
> > > I said, it's all about demand.
> > >
> > > --
> > > <hopethishelps />
> > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > > http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
> > >
> > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3B28EB72.2141CA67@prescriber.com...
> > > > Roy,
> > > >
> > > > I'm not a Unix/Linux internals guy, but I find it hard to believe it
> will
> > > cost
> > > > millions of dollars to port to Linux.  Isn't PB written in C++?
> Doesn't
> > > Sybase
> > > > already have PB Unix ports?  Are they going to spend those saved
> millions
> > > on
> > > > marketing?
> > > >
> > > > The point I was trying to make is, Linux is gaining popularity as we
> > > speak.
> > > > Forcing Windows PB developers (who want to move to Linux and not
> Solaris,
> > > AIX or
> > > > HP-UX) to start using Java will remove the Sybase (i.e. PB)
handcuffs.
> > > These
> > > > people will no longer be tied to PB and Sybase.  I guess that's a
> > > calculated
> > > > risk Sybase is willing to make.  Keep in mind, developers don't make
> > > application
> > > > server buy decisions, "informed" executives who read trade rags,
> without
> > > > EAServer advertising, make those decisions.
> > > >
> > > > Try this snare: One of these "informed" executives just read an
> article
> > > touting
> > > > Linux and decides that's the way to go; the developers inform this
> person
> > > that
> > > > PB isn't supported on Linux and a migration to Linux would mean
> porting to
> > > Java;
> > > > the "informed" executive says OK - let's port to Java and move to
> WebLogic
> > > or
> > > > WebSphere.  Bye bye Sybase.  At this point, mustering up demand for
a
> PB
> > > Linux
> > > > port will be futile.  A proactive approach is always more effective
> than a
> > > > reactive approach (management 101).
> > > >
> > > > IBM offers FREE developer versions of WebSphere.  Sybase used to
> provide a
> > > > developers version of EAServer for free.  I guess Sybase had another
> > > brainstorm
> > > > when they decided to start charging for it.
> > > >
> > > > Obviously, this logic isn't very obvious.  I know you'll be happy to
> hear
> > > this,
> > > > and I hate to say it (because I really like PB/EAServer), once
ported
> to
> > > Java -
> > > > bye bye Sybase (IBM is waiting with open arms).
> > > >
> > > > I've said enough.
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > > >
> > > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > David,
> > > > >
> > > > > Get enough people that share your point of view and you may get
> Sybase
> > > to
> > > > > change their mind -- the decision not to port PB to Linux was
> primarilly
> > > > > based on demand, which apparently is not there yet, at least not
in
> > > numbers
> > > > > that could justify spending the millions of $s it would cost to do
> so.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vote soon, vote often...
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > <hopethishelps />
> > > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > > > > http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
> > > > >
> > > > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3B286882.87C3C6DD@prescriber.com...
> > > > > > An additional two cents...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sybase has decided NOT to port PB to Linux.  So, there is no
> > > transition
> > > > > path for
> > > > > > those of us who are fed up with Windows on Intel, but who would
> like
> > > to
> > > > > stay with
> > > > > > Intel.  The reason given, "Java will be the development platform
> of
> > > choice
> > > > > on
> > > > > > Linux".  If I have to port my PB components to Java in order to
> run on
> > > > > Linux, I am
> > > > > > no longer tied to EAServer (since it's the only application
server
> > > that
> > > > > supports
> > > > > > the PBVM).  The decision makers at Sybase may not think so, but
> > > they're
> > > > > providing,
> > > > > > if not encouraging, a migration away from Sybase products for
> those
> > > long
> > > > > time PB
> > > > > > developers (which, I would imagine, is most of your customer
> base).
> > > > > Windows is
> > > > > > fine for in-house applications of small to medium size, but
> Unix/Linux
> > > is
> > > > > the way
> > > > > > to go for industrial strength web applications.  I know this,
I'm
> not
> > > > > comfortable
> > > > > > deploying an ASP application, that potentially could be taking
> > > hundreds of
> > > > > > thousands of hits, on Windows.  I don't care what Microsoft says
> about
> > > > > Windows
> > > > > > 2000, I don't believe it can hack it (I'm not real interested in
> > > > > clustering 10+
> > > > > > machines).  In addition, I just don't know what to think about
> > > PB/EAServer
> > > > > for
> > > > > > Solaris, AIX and HP-UX.  They just don't seem to be getting much
> air
> > > play
> > > > > on the
> > > > > > newsgroups.  I'll deploy Apache/Tomcat/Jarkarta on Linux as a
web
> > > server
> > > > > on the
> > > > > > front end and put my Oracle database on Linux on the back end.
It
> > > sure
> > > > > would be
> > > > > > nice to know I could deploy PB/EAServer on Linux in the middle.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let's face facts, probably 98% of PB/EAServer developers are
> > > Windows/Intel
> > > > > based.
> > > > > > That's where they must stay if they want to stick with PB and
> Intel.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Don't get me wrong, I'm a long time PB developer who has
migrated
> a
> > > Web.PB
> > > > > > application to EAServer.  I'm ready to migrate to Linux.  Again,
> If
> > > I'm
> > > > > forced to
> > > > > > port to Java, a whole new world opens up.  Since Sybase doesn't
> > > actively
> > > > > market
> > > > > > EAServer, no one asks or knows about EAServer.  Everyone asks
> about
> > > > > WebLogic and
> > > > > > WebSphere.  I don't know who makes the decisions at Sybase, but
> > > they're
> > > > > dropping
> > > > > > the ball big time.  I keep hearing how Sybase is getting there
act
> > > > > together, but
> > > > > > nothing has changed.  PB and EAServer are outstanding products.
> The
> > > > > technical
> > > > > > people behind these products should be proud.  Wish I could say
> the
> > > same
> > > > > for Sybase
> > > > > > marketing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well, I guess that was about 10 cents worth...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >>Here's the latest: Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We
> just
> > > > > released
> > > > > > > >>PowerBuilder 8  today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the
> way,
> > > you
> > > > > can't
> > > > > > > >>actually GET it  now, but we sure did want to let you know
> that it
> > > is
> > > > > > > available.
> > > > > > > Well its kind of nice to know in advance so you can build into
> your
> > > > > project
> > > > > > > plans when you will migrate and who will be involved etc. How
> long
> > > did
> > > > > > > microsoft make us to wait for win95????
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >>Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the
> > > PowerBuilder
> > > > > > > >>upgrade?!
> > > > > > > Sybase are a profit organisation and if PB8 is such a good
> product (
> > > > > which I
> > > > > > > believe it will be ) then they deserve to reap the rewards
from
> it.
> > > I
> > > > > would
> > > > > > > imagine that if you developed a good product you would want
some
> > > money
> > > > > for it?
> > > > > > > I don't imagine development tools for Oracle, BEA or IBM come
> cheap
> > > > > either.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >>Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used
to
> be
> > > one
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > >>you.  Give it up.
> > > > > > > Well I admit to being a sybase defender and attacker. I think
> they
> > > have
> > > > > a great
> > > > > > > suite of products and they certainly have proven themselves
over
> the
> > > > > years. EAS
> > > > > > > is a superb product. On the other hand I agree that marketing
> and
> > > > > support need
> > > > > > > some polishing, but those facts alone are not good enough
> reasons to
> > > > > give up on
> > > > > > > solid development tools.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >>if you really think you are going to compete with BEA and
IBM,
> > > then
> > > > > you must
> > > > > > > >>figure it will be through attracting PowerBuilder shops by
> > > pointing
> > > > > out how
> > > > > > > they >>can leverage PB within EA Server.
> > > > > > > I agree with you on this but you're just bringing up what has
> been
> > > > > discussed (
> > > > > > > in a better tone ) on many occasions before.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best of luck
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So_Long_Yu wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bleak at best, given the typical Sybase mismanagement of
> product
> > > > > marketing,
> > > > > > > > customer service, etc.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Here's the latest:
> > > > > > > > Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released
> > > PowerBuilder 8
> > > > > > > > today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't
> actually
> > > GET
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > > now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is
> available.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now that's interesting -- the product is released, but not
> > > available.
> > > > > > > > Clever.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Oh, and all you EA Studio customers -- guess what else
Sybase
> has
> > > come
> > > > > up
> > > > > > > > with?  Despite the fact that PowerBuilder is a part of EA
> Studio,
> > > and
> > > > > > > > despite the fact that you may be an EA Studio and EA Server
> > > customer,
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > > are NOT entitled to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade!  Yep, you
got
> it.
> > > > > This is
> > > > > > > > even better than it sounds, because many of you, like us,
were
> > > > > originally
> > > > > > > > PowerBuilder Enterprise customers, and then Sybase came
along
> and
> > > > > > > > AUTOMATICALLY upgraded you to be EA Studio customers (when
PB
> 7
> > > came
> > > > > out).
> > > > > > > > Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the
> > > PowerBuilder
> > > > > > > > upgrade?!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used
to
> be
> > > one
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > you.  Give it up.  Spare us the typically excuses and finger
> > > pointing
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > > why all of this is actually OUR fault or why this is
actually
> a
> > > GOOD
> > > > > thing
> > > > > > > > for us or why we should be the one marketing your freaking
> product
> > > > > because
> > > > > > > > it will be more believable coming from us.  You have
> continually
> > > SH*T
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > > your customers.  At this point it doesn't even matter how
good
> or
> > > bad
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > product is.  It doesn't matter that there happen to be a few
> good
> > > > > Sybase
> > > > > > > > engineers who do what they can in this and other newsgroups
to
> > > help
> > > > > out.
> > > > > > > > You are so far behind in the application server market that
it
> > > just
> > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > matter anyway.  That battle was lost a long time ago; if you
> > > really
> > > > > think
> > > > > > > > you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must
> figure it
> > > > > will be
> > > > > > > > through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how
they
> can
> > > > > leverage
> > > > > > > > PB within EA Server.  Problem is, you can't piss off those
> > > customers
> > > > > FAST
> > > > > > > > enough, apparently.  So now you've come up with another w
> > > > > > > > ay to do it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Folks, do yourselves a favor:
> > > > > > > > http://developer.bea.com/index.jsp
> > > > > > > > http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > __________________________
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
> > > > > > > System Architect
> > > > > > > ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
> > > > > > > The University of Sydney
> > > > > > > Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
> > > > > > > Mobile: +61 403 341 474
> > > > > > > Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >
>
>


0
Dean
6/15/2001 2:50:28 PM
LOL

--
Dean Jones TeamSybase
PowerTeam, Inc.
www.powerobjects.com
WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
Come visit our booth at TechWave
EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar


"Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]" <asimmond@mail.usyd.edu.au> wrote in message
news:3B29BA91.76B39E27@mail.usyd.edu.au...
> Good comment ;-)
> Probably a disgruntled cobol programmer who dislikes all 4GL languagaes.
> A.
>
> "Dean Jones [TeamSybase]" wrote:
>
> > I have to as who the "We" is that you keep referring to. What company
would
> > that be?
> >
> > You obviously like Sybase tools, your here in the forums OR your one of
> > "those" types that complain about what ever tool you are using. That is
if
> > you were using WebSphere you would be in IBM's forums complaininng about
> > WebSphere taking too much memory and costing too much.
> >
> > --
> > Dean Jones TeamSybase
> > Sybase Defenders
> > PowerTeam, Inc.
> > www.powerobjects.com
> > WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
> > Come visit our booth at TechWave
> > EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar
> >
> > <So_Long_Yu> wrote in message
> > news:55B338593D93DC45005B812485256A6B.0014A0D385256A6B@webforums...
> > > >>>Sybase are a profit organisation and if PB8 is such a good
>>>product (
> > > which I
> > > >>>believe it will be ) then they deserve to reap the rewards >>>from
it.
> > I
> > > would
> > > >>>imagine that if you developed a good product you would want >>>some
> > > money for it?
> > > >>>I don't imagine development tools for Oracle, BEA or IBM come
>>>cheap
> > > either.
> > > First of all you're missing the point.  But since you brought it up,
> > > believe me -- no one knows better than we do just exactly how well
Syba$e
> > > "reap[s] the rewards from [their products]".
> > >
> > > Anyway, in a recent call to Sybase Tech Support, we were told that a
> > > problem we are experiencing will be resolved in PowerBuilder 8.
Great, we
> > > thought, but when we expressed concern over how long it would be until
we
> > > could get our hands on it, the rep told us emphatically, don't
worry -- it
> > > will be out in June and probably before the middle of June.  It should
be
> > > pretty clear that an ANNOUNCEMENT of a product will do us no good
towards
> > > resolving a bug in the current version.  Now, either the tech knew
about
> > > the situation and was intentionally bs-ing us, or Sybase has yet again
> > > failed to keep their customer service / tech support people informed
as to
> > > the plan.
> > >
> > > >>>>>Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used
> > > >>>to be one of
> > > >>>>>you.  Give it up.
> > > >>>Well I admit to being a sybase defender and attacker. I think
>>>they
> > > have a great
> > > >>>suite of products and they certainly have proven themselves >>>over
the
> > > years. EAS
> > > >>>is a superb product. On the other hand I agree that marketing
>>>and
> > > support need
> > > >>>some polishing, but those facts alone are not good enough
>>>reasons to
> > > give up on
> > > >>>solid development tools.
> > > A) We would argue with you that is EXACTLY these facts that provide
the
> > > reason why many people already HAVE left Sybase in favor of other
vendors
> > > and products.
> > >
> > > B) It is NOT just these facts, by the way.  Our opinion, your opinion,
or
> > > the opinion of whomever is irrelevant by itself.  However, the overall
> > > INDUSTRY's opinion does matter.  And the industry barely even knows
what
> > EA
> > > Server is.  Go ahead, take the challenge.  Find one MAJOR (minor?)
trade
> > > rag mentioning EA Server.  Of those, how many mention it in a POSITIVE
> > > light?  Now attempt the same thing for WebSphere, Weblogic, etc.
> > >
> > >
> > > >>>>>if you really think you are going to compete with BEA and >>>IBM,
> > then
> > > you must
> > > >>>>>figure it will be through attracting PowerBuilder shops by
> > >>>pointing
> > > out how
> > > >>>they >>can leverage PB within EA Server.
> > > >>>I agree with you on this but you're just bringing up what has
>>>been
> > > discussed (
> > > >>>in a better tone ) on many occasions before.
> > > Yes, you see.  It's the unhappy customers' TONE that is the cause of
all
> > of
> > > Sybase's problems.  Thank you for proving that point.  And, the fact
that
> > > something has been brought up before does not reduce its importance
> > > (despite what Clinton might have tried to convince us of).  Now, maybe
if
> > > Sybase would ADDRESS some of the issues that have been -- and continue
to
> > > be -- raised, instead of shrugging their shoulders and saying "we've
heard
> > > it all before," some progress might be achieved.
> > >
> > > It's YOUR throat.  Each employee, consultant, etc. has to be willing
to
> > > bank their marketability on the product(s) they work with.  And to
make
> > > that decision a prudent one, a person MUST consider not just the
technical
> > > superiority of the product (developer's point of view), but the
market's
> > > perception of it.
> > >
> > > One last thought, along the same lines.  Even if Sybase could have
> > competed
> > > on technical superiority alone (and we don't believe they could have),
the
> > > time for that has long since passed.  That is, now that all the
remaining
> > > players are (or shortly will be) J2EE-compliant, there is no
compelling
> > > reason to purchase one product over another unless that product
provides
> > > you a clear competitive advantage (price, special feature, etc.).
Sybase
> > > might have a few of those to offer, depending upon your point of view,
but
> > > that never comes into play because the vast majority of the people
looking
> > > for application servers never even SEE Sybase's offering -- due to its
> > lack
> > > of presence in the market.  Game over, unfortunately.
>
> --
> __________________________
>
> Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
> System Architect
> ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
> The University of Sydney
> Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
> Mobile: +61 403 341 474
> Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711
>
>


0
Dean
6/15/2001 2:59:16 PM
See comments below...


"Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in
message news:HDh#8tZ9AHA.85@forums.sybase.com...
> David,
>
> See comments inline...
>
> "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> news:3B2934FA.353A127A@prescriber.com...
> >
> >
> <snip>
>
> Buying ad space is not the issue -- designing ad campaigns that hit the
nail
> on the head is. That takes time...

Yes, because Sybase is using a feather instead of a hammer!

>
> > I agree, adding Java is no detriment.  It would certainly provide more
> business
> > opportunities.  Sounds like you're asking me to do what the marketing
> people
> > should be doing.  I don't mind doing that.  However, it would far easier
> to
> > mention EAServer if the CIO/CTO has read something about it ahead of
time.
>
> I am not asking you to do anything -- I am telling you what I and other
> TeamSybase folks are doing -- we believe in Sybase product and we
evangelise
> them. What you're asking is for Sybase to do the leg work, so you can reap
> the consulting gig benefits -- not to say that this is inappropriate; on
the
> contrary. Nevertheless, if you'll just sit there and wait for it to
happen,
> it will, but it will take a while. If you take the active approach and
> parttake in the evalgelism effort, you'll reap the benefits much sooner.

I'm sorry, wasn't shelling out thousands and thousands of dollars on their
PRODUCT considered "taking an active approach"!
Is it possible that you STILL don't get it?
   Sybase is responsible for marketing Sybase products -- NOT us!




0
Bill
6/15/2001 3:06:07 PM
>    Sybase is responsible for marketing Sybase products -- NOT us!

I respectfully submit that it is our responsibility within our own
organizations.  Take a proactive role in your career.  If you believe that
EA Server is a better tool than tool X, then go to your management with a
well thought out and concise argument.  Include in your argument all points
both technical and not (vendor support, licensing, newsgroups).  Think it
all out.  Run it by newsgroups (for all vendors) to make sure you don't miss
anything (pro and con).  If you believe that tool X and vendor X is a better
tool/vendor combination, then argue in their favor.  Fight for the tool you
want to use, don't expect the vendor to do it for you (if they do, great,
but don't count on it).




"Bill Bullowers" <b i l l b u l l o w e r s @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:SQcE#$a9AHA.85@forums.sybase.com...
> See comments below...
>
>
> "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in
> message news:HDh#8tZ9AHA.85@forums.sybase.com...
> > David,
> >
> > See comments inline...
> >
> > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > news:3B2934FA.353A127A@prescriber.com...
> > >
> > >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Buying ad space is not the issue -- designing ad campaigns that hit the
> nail
> > on the head is. That takes time...
>
> Yes, because Sybase is using a feather instead of a hammer!
>
> >
> > > I agree, adding Java is no detriment.  It would certainly provide more
> > business
> > > opportunities.  Sounds like you're asking me to do what the marketing
> > people
> > > should be doing.  I don't mind doing that.  However, it would far
easier
> > to
> > > mention EAServer if the CIO/CTO has read something about it ahead of
> time.
> >
> > I am not asking you to do anything -- I am telling you what I and other
> > TeamSybase folks are doing -- we believe in Sybase product and we
> evangelise
> > them. What you're asking is for Sybase to do the leg work, so you can
reap
> > the consulting gig benefits -- not to say that this is inappropriate; on
> the
> > contrary. Nevertheless, if you'll just sit there and wait for it to
> happen,
> > it will, but it will take a while. If you take the active approach and
> > parttake in the evalgelism effort, you'll reap the benefits much sooner.
>
> I'm sorry, wasn't shelling out thousands and thousands of dollars on their
> PRODUCT considered "taking an active approach"!
> Is it possible that you STILL don't get it?
>    Sybase is responsible for marketing Sybase products -- NOT us!
>
>
>
>


0
Daniel
6/15/2001 3:43:04 PM
"Bill Bullowers" <b i l l b u l l o w e r s @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:SQcE#$a9AHA.85@forums.sybase.com...
> See comments below...
>
> Yes, because Sybase is using a feather instead of a hammer!

Huh? Nevermind, we're digressing as it is...

> I'm sorry, wasn't shelling out thousands and thousands of dollars on their
> PRODUCT considered "taking an active approach"!
> Is it possible that you STILL don't get it?
>    Sybase is responsible for marketing Sybase products -- NOT us!

That's your view, and you're entitled to it -- I was just expressing mine.
Just be careful -- the spokes on that picket fence are sharp<g>

Good luck to you,

--
<hopethishelps />
Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231



0
Roy
6/15/2001 3:47:13 PM
Depending upon which message you are referring to, the "we" represents my 
company, or developers in general.

By the way, my name really is So Long Yu, it was given to me as a child and 
when my family migrated to the US from Taiwan my family all kept their real 
names instead of taking the ones that they try to assign you at 
immigration.  Yes, I know my name sounds funny too -- oh well, I like it.

The company name is not important, and frankly I'm surprised that you would 
attempt to change the subject.  Yet, then again, that is actually another 
example of the problem with Sybase (accept no responsibility, it's not our 
fault, etc.).

Yes, Dean.  Very good.  How long did it take you to figure out that I like 
(SOME) Sybase tools? ;>)  In many, many previous postings I've said as much 
(I've also indicated my long-time role as Sybase Defender).  Incidentally, 
the very fact that Sybase Defenders are needed should be telling Sybase 
something is wrong.

However, make no mistake about it -- in America, we are free to express our 
opinions.  And I will continue to do so as I please - - at least my 
opinions are based on facts.  And I want all Sybase customers to know about 
the foolish and greedy strategy Sybase has (according to the customer 
service rep) implemented with regards to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade.  If 
you view that as complaining strictly for complaining's sake or doing so 
without merit, so be it.

Now, as far as other tools are concerned -- that's where you are wrong.  I 
use BEA, SilverStream, Cold Fusion, JRun, etc. etc. and I like them a lot.

Question for you -- why does it seem that SOME of the TeamSybase members 
personalize the critical comments directed at Sybase tools?

Another question -- as a TeamSybase member, do you receive your Sybase 
products for free?
0
So_Long_Yu
6/15/2001 3:48:17 PM
Wow.  You do TeamSybase proud, Adam.

- Yu
0
So_Long_Yu
6/15/2001 3:52:53 PM
I thought I was clear on that, but I'll mention it again.

We got the information from Sybase customer support.  Apparently, we are 
not the only folks to get this response -- please refer to the thread "PB8 
Upgrade path outrage!!!" for a similar experience.

Perhaps this is the old doctor / health care system scenario?  That is, is 
it possible that as a TeamSybase member you are spared the dread of the 
Sybase customer support?  I don't know that, of course.  But if that is the 
case, you ought to try it sometime.  There I go again, complaining...
0
So_Long_Yu
6/15/2001 3:57:26 PM

Parts of what you say are correct, Daniel.  At least as far as career
management is concerned.  And you better believe I'll manage MY career.
Which is EXACTLY the reason why so many people keep saying the same thing.
We already DO promote the technical features, Daniel.  All that and the most
wonderful, well-written presentation don't add up to a hill of beans to
management -- out of sight, out of mind.  My only alternative -- when I've
done all the things you suggested, and still Sybase hasn't done their
part -- is to use a different product (and then, by the way, start arguing
in favor of THAT product).

Sybase has few problems from the technical of the equation.  But, OS/Warp
was technically superior to Windows, remember?  Seen any software written
for OS/Warp lately?


"Daniel Coppersmith" <daniel@N.0.S.P.A.M_infrontsoftware.com> wrote in
message news:jcTj3Vb9AHA.85@forums.sybase.com...
> >    Sybase is responsible for marketing Sybase products -- NOT us!
>
> I respectfully submit that it is our responsibility within our own
> organizations.  Take a proactive role in your career.  If you believe that
> EA Server is a better tool than tool X, then go to your management with a
> well thought out and concise argument.  Include in your argument all
points
> both technical and not (vendor support, licensing, newsgroups).  Think it
> all out.  Run it by newsgroups (for all vendors) to make sure you don't
miss
> anything (pro and con).  If you believe that tool X and vendor X is a
better
> tool/vendor combination, then argue in their favor.  Fight for the tool
you
> want to use, don't expect the vendor to do it for you (if they do, great,
> but don't count on it).
>
>
>
>
> "Bill Bullowers" <b i l l b u l l o w e r s @hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:SQcE#$a9AHA.85@forums.sybase.com...
> > See comments below...
> >
> >
> > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote
in
> > message news:HDh#8tZ9AHA.85@forums.sybase.com...
> > > David,
> > >
> > > See comments inline...
> > >
> > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3B2934FA.353A127A@prescriber.com...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > Buying ad space is not the issue -- designing ad campaigns that hit
the
> > nail
> > > on the head is. That takes time...
> >
> > Yes, because Sybase is using a feather instead of a hammer!
> >
> > >
> > > > I agree, adding Java is no detriment.  It would certainly provide
more
> > > business
> > > > opportunities.  Sounds like you're asking me to do what the
marketing
> > > people
> > > > should be doing.  I don't mind doing that.  However, it would far
> easier
> > > to
> > > > mention EAServer if the CIO/CTO has read something about it ahead of
> > time.
> > >
> > > I am not asking you to do anything -- I am telling you what I and
other
> > > TeamSybase folks are doing -- we believe in Sybase product and we
> > evangelise
> > > them. What you're asking is for Sybase to do the leg work, so you can
> reap
> > > the consulting gig benefits -- not to say that this is inappropriate;
on
> > the
> > > contrary. Nevertheless, if you'll just sit there and wait for it to
> > happen,
> > > it will, but it will take a while. If you take the active approach and
> > > parttake in the evalgelism effort, you'll reap the benefits much
sooner.
> >
> > I'm sorry, wasn't shelling out thousands and thousands of dollars on
their
> > PRODUCT considered "taking an active approach"!
> > Is it possible that you STILL don't get it?
> >    Sybase is responsible for marketing Sybase products -- NOT us!
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>


0
Bill
6/15/2001 3:58:39 PM
<So_Long_Yu> wrote in message
news:E0750AF38B76AE500056D15185256A6C.006ECE9D85256A6B@webforums...
> Depending upon which message you are referring to, the "we" represents my
> company, or developers in general.

Kind'a presumptuous to be speaking on behalf of developers in general, don't
you think?

> The company name is not important, and frankly I'm surprised that you
would
> attempt to change the subject.  Yet, then again, that is actually another
> example of the problem with Sybase (accept no responsibility, it's not our
> fault, etc.).

One more thing -- TeamSybase members are __not__ Sybase employees; we're
developers, much like yourself, who believe in the product and volunteer our
time to evangelize and support them. The issue of taking responsibility is
completely irrelevant here.

> Question for you -- why does it seem that SOME of the TeamSybase members
> personalize the critical comments directed at Sybase tools?

SOME? I was told we HAVE to take it personally when I joined the team<g> --
don't be so serious or you'll end up with an ulcer, and NO product is worth
that...

> Another question -- as a TeamSybase member, do you receive your Sybase
> products for free?

We receive the development version of EAServer for free -- if we want to
deploy an EAServer app, we pay a license, just like anyone else.

--
<hopethishelps />
Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231



0
Roy
6/15/2001 4:00:58 PM
Hi Bill.

Sounds funny, I know.  But my real name actually IS So Long Yu.  I even 
have the driver's license to prove it!

And, by "Sybase Defender," I mean someone who has used / promoted every 
version of PowerBuilder since 2.0, as well as several other Sybase products 
(EA Server & Studio, PowerJ, ASA, ASE, even Optima++ for goodness' sake!). 
Of course I don't use Sybase products exclusively.  That's why I am able to 
compare and contrast Sybase's marketing strategies with those of other 
companies.

Throughout the years, Sybase has made their fair share of marketing 
blunders, etc.  Even during the "ignore PowerBuilder altogether" years I've 
always defended Sybase, citing the technical superiority of PowerBuilder 
over competing products.  Same thing during the period when the application 
server wars were truly being waged.  But, enough is enough.  Sybase can't 
continue to expect us to promote their products.

I DO hang out it the WebSphere and WebLogic newsgroups, and I've never once 
seen a posting there suggesting that we developers need to help evangelize 
the product to ensure its success.  Never.
0
So_Long_Yu
6/15/2001 4:08:19 PM
> I DO hang out it the WebSphere and WebLogic newsgroups, and I've never
once
> seen a posting there suggesting that we developers need to help evangelize
> the product to ensure its success.  Never.

I hate to beat the "Sybase Marketing Needs Serious Help" dead horse further,
but it's kind of fun :).

The WebSphere and WebLogic groups do not need to do this because they have
the advantage of being in the lead.  May I dare say that WebSphere has a
better advantage because it belongs to Big Blue and, as was mentioned in a
previous post, noone ever got fired for picking IBM.

I think the entire discussion can be summed up as follows:

1. Sybase Marketing has been pathetic in the past and must get better.
2. If you think Sybase/EA Server does not meet your requirements or
standards for one reason or another and you don't think Sybase will survive,
then jump ship.
3. If you think Sybase/EA Server is a superior product that is hobbled by
poor marketing, then evangalize it.


<So_Long_Yu> wrote in message
news:DFA5DF241C62DFC80058A70785256A6C.00523E5C85256A6C@webforums...
> Hi Bill.
>
> Sounds funny, I know.  But my real name actually IS So Long Yu.  I even
> have the driver's license to prove it!
>
> And, by "Sybase Defender," I mean someone who has used / promoted every
> version of PowerBuilder since 2.0, as well as several other Sybase
products
> (EA Server & Studio, PowerJ, ASA, ASE, even Optima++ for goodness' sake!).
> Of course I don't use Sybase products exclusively.  That's why I am able
to
> compare and contrast Sybase's marketing strategies with those of other
> companies.
>
> Throughout the years, Sybase has made their fair share of marketing
> blunders, etc.  Even during the "ignore PowerBuilder altogether" years
I've
> always defended Sybase, citing the technical superiority of PowerBuilder
> over competing products.  Same thing during the period when the
application
> server wars were truly being waged.  But, enough is enough.  Sybase can't
> continue to expect us to promote their products.
>
> I DO hang out it the WebSphere and WebLogic newsgroups, and I've never
once
> seen a posting there suggesting that we developers need to help evangelize
> the product to ensure its success.  Never.


0
Daniel
6/15/2001 4:47:17 PM
Yu,
I should have shut my mouth on this issue and my previous post was not
necessary but you must remember that you have attacked not only Sybase
and their products but the people who use them as part of their careers.
I do defend sybase and will openly discuss Sybase weaknesses and
strengths but when discussed calmly and rationally which you have failed
to do.

I humbly apologise for my previous remark.

Kind Regards
Adam


So_Long_Yu wrote:
> 
> Wow.  You do TeamSybase proud, Adam.
> 
> - Yu

-- 
__________________________

Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
System Architect
ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
The University of Sydney
Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
Mobile: +61 403 341 474
Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711
0
Adam
6/15/2001 4:53:54 PM
Roy,

This whole thread (at least my portion of it) is centered around two beefs
which, in my mind, are interrelated.

1) Sybase marketing.  We all agree things need to get better.  I agree, everyone
should help bang the EAServer drum.  The point I was trying to make is, it's
hard to bang the drum when the maker of the drum isn't banging the drum as
well.  Programs are in motion, etc.  Enough said!

2) PB will not be ported to Linux.

I've got a Windows PB/EAServer application that I need to move to Linux.  We've
established that I won't be able to do this without first rewriting my PB
components in Java.  I don't have the time to do a transitional migration
(convert PB components one by one to Java on my current platform - although I've
started mapping out this process).  Obviously, moving directly from Windows to
Linux without a language change would be the preferred route.  I'm a firm
believer in the notion of "If it isn't broken, don't fix it".  Translation: if
my application is running on Linuix using PB components, I'd be happier than a
pig in @#%! to stay with PB components and EAServer.  Moving to Java is not a
bad thing, it's just time consuming (coding, QA, etc.).  Yes, it would certainly
raise my stock as a consultant.  The point I was trying to make is this, if my
application is converted to Java I now have the freedom to deploy to other
application servers.  This is where the issue of customers asking about
WebSphere and WebLogic ties in (because they are unfamiliar with EAServer).  I
was just trying to make the point that the jump to another application server
would now be possible.  We all know, if a client is willing to buy your
application if it will run on their favorite application server, we'd be
inclined to comply.  Currently, and for obvious reasons, when asked about those
other application servers, I always talk up EAServer.

I know we all live in an era of open technology and It's great.  From a purely
marketing point of view, I would think Sybase would want to keep their PB
developers (i.e. $$$$), for lack of a better word, locked in.

My situation aside, Linux is a logical migration for Windows client/server and
EAServer developers.  I guess I'm the first person wishing to make this
transition.  I don't think I'll be the last...

I appreciate your defense of EAServer.  It really is a great product.  But, on
the other hand, stripping it of a truly unique feature (especially on an up and
coming platform), waters it down and brings it back closer to the pack.

Dave


"Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:

> David,
>
> See comments inline...
>
> "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> news:3B2934FA.353A127A@prescriber.com...
> >
> >
> <snip>
> > I guess my point is, if the decision makers read only about WebSphere and
> > WebLogic, chances are they won't be buying an EAServer license when forced
> to
> > switch to Java.  Especially, since WebSphere offers a free developers
> license.
>
> Valid point. Just FYI, decision makers are getting introduced to EAServer
> (and related technologies like E-Portal, Financial Fusion and iAnywhere
> m-Business Studio) in both print and media, targeted exactly at those
> "decision makers" (read: don't look for it in PBDJ or JDJ, although these
> publications do have ads for developers.)
>
> > Sure, it expands opportunities.  Opportunities to move away from a
> relatively
> > unknown product to a more widely know product.  Remember who makes the buy
> > decisions.  Not always the most qualified or knowledgeable people...
>
> As I mentioned, that's changing, but it won't happen overnight.
>
> > Agreed, but it needs to start happening soon.  I don't know the
> advertising side
> > of the business but, I would think buying advertising space doesn't take a
> great
> > deal of work, does it?
>
> Buying ad space is not the issue -- designing ad campaigns that hit the nail
> on the head is. That takes time...
>
> > I agree, adding Java is no detriment.  It would certainly provide more
> business
> > opportunities.  Sounds like you're asking me to do what the marketing
> people
> > should be doing.  I don't mind doing that.  However, it would far easier
> to
> > mention EAServer if the CIO/CTO has read something about it ahead of time.
>
> I am not asking you to do anything -- I am telling you what I and other
> TeamSybase folks are doing -- we believe in Sybase product and we evangelise
> them. What you're asking is for Sybase to do the leg work, so you can reap
> the consulting gig benefits -- not to say that this is inappropriate; on the
> contrary. Nevertheless, if you'll just sit there and wait for it to happen,
> it will, but it will take a while. If you take the active approach and
> parttake in the evalgelism effort, you'll reap the benefits much sooner.
>
> > OK, It's obvious Sybase isn't going to port PB to Linux, sigh.  So let's
> stop
> > beating this horse to death.  I lose - uncle!
>
> Linux? Is that what this was all about? <g>
>
> I agree. But in all seriousness, many of this rant sessions (keep'em
> comin' -- they keep us all sharp) boil down to one thing; do you believe in
> a particular Sybase product? If so, step up on your soap box and speak
> out -- we'll al benefit from it. Have a problem with a product? By all
> means, tell us about it in the newsgroups, but don't stop there; Open a case
> and follow up.
>
> --
> <hopethishelps />
> Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231

0
David
6/15/2001 5:13:05 PM
Dave and all,

I just want to say that I agree completeley with you, mainly in second
issue. By now, we are clearing starting two separate threads in future
desktop and server development : Windows or Linux.

Staying with Windows, more earlier than imagined, will be needed to support
the CLR and .NET framework. I believe that soon Microsoft will do all that
is possible to cut Java development in Windows machines, mainly because they
(MS), are not permitted to do nothing in this field.  I also know that
EAServer is a great product, very better thant MTS for example, and will
find it market earlier or late.

However, I'm afraid about Powerbuilder future, that to me is the best and
RAID, open, development tool for database applications , regarding this
applications are 2 or n-tier. Powerbuilder concepts, mainly Datawindow, are
great, and I want to stay with them, maybe forever..

I have about 10 big applications client-server, n-tier and Internet written
in PB, EAServer or MTS that are linked to Windows environment. I'm terrified
about Linux growth, because none of them are compatible, nor the server
object, nor the user interface (obviously, excluding the interface of
Internet  apps). If we got a PB Linux version, like Borland it's doing with
Kylinx, I would relax and wait to see who will win. Maybe we should make a
"chain" of signatures that comprise what developers think about a PB Linux
version, with cc to sybase marketing. PB is a big product, maybe the better,
don't let it die..

"David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
news:3B2A4221.2925E5BB@prescriber.com...
> Roy,
>
> This whole thread (at least my portion of it) is centered around two beefs
> which, in my mind, are interrelated.
>
> 1) Sybase marketing.  We all agree things need to get better.  I agree,
everyone
> should help bang the EAServer drum.  The point I was trying to make is,
it's
> hard to bang the drum when the maker of the drum isn't banging the drum as
> well.  Programs are in motion, etc.  Enough said!
>
> 2) PB will not be ported to Linux.
>
> I've got a Windows PB/EAServer application that I need to move to Linux.
We've
> established that I won't be able to do this without first rewriting my PB
> components in Java.  I don't have the time to do a transitional migration
> (convert PB components one by one to Java on my current platform -
although I've
> started mapping out this process).  Obviously, moving directly from
Windows to
> Linux without a language change would be the preferred route.  I'm a firm
> believer in the notion of "If it isn't broken, don't fix it".
Translation: if
> my application is running on Linuix using PB components, I'd be happier
than a
> pig in @#%! to stay with PB components and EAServer.  Moving to Java is
not a
> bad thing, it's just time consuming (coding, QA, etc.).  Yes, it would
certainly
> raise my stock as a consultant.  The point I was trying to make is this,
if my
> application is converted to Java I now have the freedom to deploy to other
> application servers.  This is where the issue of customers asking about
> WebSphere and WebLogic ties in (because they are unfamiliar with
EAServer).  I
> was just trying to make the point that the jump to another application
server
> would now be possible.  We all know, if a client is willing to buy your
> application if it will run on their favorite application server, we'd be
> inclined to comply.  Currently, and for obvious reasons, when asked about
those
> other application servers, I always talk up EAServer.
>
> I know we all live in an era of open technology and It's great.  From a
purely
> marketing point of view, I would think Sybase would want to keep their PB
> developers (i.e. $$$$), for lack of a better word, locked in.
>
> My situation aside, Linux is a logical migration for Windows client/server
and
> EAServer developers.  I guess I'm the first person wishing to make this
> transition.  I don't think I'll be the last...
>
> I appreciate your defense of EAServer.  It really is a great product.
But, on
> the other hand, stripping it of a truly unique feature (especially on an
up and
> coming platform), waters it down and brings it back closer to the pack.
>
> Dave
>
>
> "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:
>
> > David,
> >
> > See comments inline...
> >
> > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > news:3B2934FA.353A127A@prescriber.com...
> > >
> > >
> > <snip>
> > > I guess my point is, if the decision makers read only about WebSphere
and
> > > WebLogic, chances are they won't be buying an EAServer license when
forced
> > to
> > > switch to Java.  Especially, since WebSphere offers a free developers
> > license.
> >
> > Valid point. Just FYI, decision makers are getting introduced to
EAServer
> > (and related technologies like E-Portal, Financial Fusion and iAnywhere
> > m-Business Studio) in both print and media, targeted exactly at those
> > "decision makers" (read: don't look for it in PBDJ or JDJ, although
these
> > publications do have ads for developers.)
> >
> > > Sure, it expands opportunities.  Opportunities to move away from a
> > relatively
> > > unknown product to a more widely know product.  Remember who makes the
buy
> > > decisions.  Not always the most qualified or knowledgeable people...
> >
> > As I mentioned, that's changing, but it won't happen overnight.
> >
> > > Agreed, but it needs to start happening soon.  I don't know the
> > advertising side
> > > of the business but, I would think buying advertising space doesn't
take a
> > great
> > > deal of work, does it?
> >
> > Buying ad space is not the issue -- designing ad campaigns that hit the
nail
> > on the head is. That takes time...
> >
> > > I agree, adding Java is no detriment.  It would certainly provide more
> > business
> > > opportunities.  Sounds like you're asking me to do what the marketing
> > people
> > > should be doing.  I don't mind doing that.  However, it would far
easier
> > to
> > > mention EAServer if the CIO/CTO has read something about it ahead of
time.
> >
> > I am not asking you to do anything -- I am telling you what I and other
> > TeamSybase folks are doing -- we believe in Sybase product and we
evangelise
> > them. What you're asking is for Sybase to do the leg work, so you can
reap
> > the consulting gig benefits -- not to say that this is inappropriate; on
the
> > contrary. Nevertheless, if you'll just sit there and wait for it to
happen,
> > it will, but it will take a while. If you take the active approach and
> > parttake in the evalgelism effort, you'll reap the benefits much sooner.
> >
> > > OK, It's obvious Sybase isn't going to port PB to Linux, sigh.  So
let's
> > stop
> > > beating this horse to death.  I lose - uncle!
> >
> > Linux? Is that what this was all about? <g>
> >
> > I agree. But in all seriousness, many of this rant sessions (keep'em
> > comin' -- they keep us all sharp) boil down to one thing; do you believe
in
> > a particular Sybase product? If so, step up on your soap box and speak
> > out -- we'll al benefit from it. Have a problem with a product? By all
> > means, tell us about it in the newsgroups, but don't stop there; Open a
case
> > and follow up.
> >
> > --
> > <hopethishelps />
> > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
>


0
Wendell
6/15/2001 5:42:09 PM
I urge you to call your Sybase Sales Rep and tell them what you are saying here.
However, you have to also understand that even if there are a 100
developers/companies that want PB/Linux, that is a small percentage of the PB
population, so the bottom line is to keep asking. If the demand increases, then
perhaps something would be done.

regards,
Bill

Wendell Rios wrote:

> Dave and all,
>
> I just want to say that I agree completeley with you, mainly in second
> issue. By now, we are clearing starting two separate threads in future
> desktop and server development : Windows or Linux.
>
> Staying with Windows, more earlier than imagined, will be needed to support
> the CLR and .NET framework. I believe that soon Microsoft will do all that
> is possible to cut Java development in Windows machines, mainly because they
> (MS), are not permitted to do nothing in this field.  I also know that
> EAServer is a great product, very better thant MTS for example, and will
> find it market earlier or late.
>
> However, I'm afraid about Powerbuilder future, that to me is the best and
> RAID, open, development tool for database applications , regarding this
> applications are 2 or n-tier. Powerbuilder concepts, mainly Datawindow, are
> great, and I want to stay with them, maybe forever..
>
> I have about 10 big applications client-server, n-tier and Internet written
> in PB, EAServer or MTS that are linked to Windows environment. I'm terrified
> about Linux growth, because none of them are compatible, nor the server
> object, nor the user interface (obviously, excluding the interface of
> Internet  apps). If we got a PB Linux version, like Borland it's doing with
> Kylinx, I would relax and wait to see who will win. Maybe we should make a
> "chain" of signatures that comprise what developers think about a PB Linux
> version, with cc to sybase marketing. PB is a big product, maybe the better,
> don't let it die..
>
> "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> news:3B2A4221.2925E5BB@prescriber.com...
> > Roy,
> >
> > This whole thread (at least my portion of it) is centered around two beefs
> > which, in my mind, are interrelated.
> >
> > 1) Sybase marketing.  We all agree things need to get better.  I agree,
> everyone
> > should help bang the EAServer drum.  The point I was trying to make is,
> it's
> > hard to bang the drum when the maker of the drum isn't banging the drum as
> > well.  Programs are in motion, etc.  Enough said!
> >
> > 2) PB will not be ported to Linux.
> >
> > I've got a Windows PB/EAServer application that I need to move to Linux.
> We've
> > established that I won't be able to do this without first rewriting my PB
> > components in Java.  I don't have the time to do a transitional migration
> > (convert PB components one by one to Java on my current platform -
> although I've
> > started mapping out this process).  Obviously, moving directly from
> Windows to
> > Linux without a language change would be the preferred route.  I'm a firm
> > believer in the notion of "If it isn't broken, don't fix it".
> Translation: if
> > my application is running on Linuix using PB components, I'd be happier
> than a
> > pig in @#%! to stay with PB components and EAServer.  Moving to Java is
> not a
> > bad thing, it's just time consuming (coding, QA, etc.).  Yes, it would
> certainly
> > raise my stock as a consultant.  The point I was trying to make is this,
> if my
> > application is converted to Java I now have the freedom to deploy to other
> > application servers.  This is where the issue of customers asking about
> > WebSphere and WebLogic ties in (because they are unfamiliar with
> EAServer).  I
> > was just trying to make the point that the jump to another application
> server
> > would now be possible.  We all know, if a client is willing to buy your
> > application if it will run on their favorite application server, we'd be
> > inclined to comply.  Currently, and for obvious reasons, when asked about
> those
> > other application servers, I always talk up EAServer.
> >
> > I know we all live in an era of open technology and It's great.  From a
> purely
> > marketing point of view, I would think Sybase would want to keep their PB
> > developers (i.e. $$$$), for lack of a better word, locked in.
> >
> > My situation aside, Linux is a logical migration for Windows client/server
> and
> > EAServer developers.  I guess I'm the first person wishing to make this
> > transition.  I don't think I'll be the last...
> >
> > I appreciate your defense of EAServer.  It really is a great product.
> But, on
> > the other hand, stripping it of a truly unique feature (especially on an
> up and
> > coming platform), waters it down and brings it back closer to the pack.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> >
> > > David,
> > >
> > > See comments inline...
> > >
> > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3B2934FA.353A127A@prescriber.com...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > <snip>
> > > > I guess my point is, if the decision makers read only about WebSphere
> and
> > > > WebLogic, chances are they won't be buying an EAServer license when
> forced
> > > to
> > > > switch to Java.  Especially, since WebSphere offers a free developers
> > > license.
> > >
> > > Valid point. Just FYI, decision makers are getting introduced to
> EAServer
> > > (and related technologies like E-Portal, Financial Fusion and iAnywhere
> > > m-Business Studio) in both print and media, targeted exactly at those
> > > "decision makers" (read: don't look for it in PBDJ or JDJ, although
> these
> > > publications do have ads for developers.)
> > >
> > > > Sure, it expands opportunities.  Opportunities to move away from a
> > > relatively
> > > > unknown product to a more widely know product.  Remember who makes the
> buy
> > > > decisions.  Not always the most qualified or knowledgeable people...
> > >
> > > As I mentioned, that's changing, but it won't happen overnight.
> > >
> > > > Agreed, but it needs to start happening soon.  I don't know the
> > > advertising side
> > > > of the business but, I would think buying advertising space doesn't
> take a
> > > great
> > > > deal of work, does it?
> > >
> > > Buying ad space is not the issue -- designing ad campaigns that hit the
> nail
> > > on the head is. That takes time...
> > >
> > > > I agree, adding Java is no detriment.  It would certainly provide more
> > > business
> > > > opportunities.  Sounds like you're asking me to do what the marketing
> > > people
> > > > should be doing.  I don't mind doing that.  However, it would far
> easier
> > > to
> > > > mention EAServer if the CIO/CTO has read something about it ahead of
> time.
> > >
> > > I am not asking you to do anything -- I am telling you what I and other
> > > TeamSybase folks are doing -- we believe in Sybase product and we
> evangelise
> > > them. What you're asking is for Sybase to do the leg work, so you can
> reap
> > > the consulting gig benefits -- not to say that this is inappropriate; on
> the
> > > contrary. Nevertheless, if you'll just sit there and wait for it to
> happen,
> > > it will, but it will take a while. If you take the active approach and
> > > parttake in the evalgelism effort, you'll reap the benefits much sooner.
> > >
> > > > OK, It's obvious Sybase isn't going to port PB to Linux, sigh.  So
> let's
> > > stop
> > > > beating this horse to death.  I lose - uncle!
> > >
> > > Linux? Is that what this was all about? <g>
> > >
> > > I agree. But in all seriousness, many of this rant sessions (keep'em
> > > comin' -- they keep us all sharp) boil down to one thing; do you believe
> in
> > > a particular Sybase product? If so, step up on your soap box and speak
> > > out -- we'll al benefit from it. Have a problem with a product? By all
> > > means, tell us about it in the newsgroups, but don't stop there; Open a
> case
> > > and follow up.
> > >
> > > --
> > > <hopethishelps />
> > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > > http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
> >

--
Bill Green[TeamSybase]
-----------------------------------------------------------
Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards
http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/


Good Links to know, good places to go:

Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often
Find things like:
-- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available
-- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available
-- Components, White papers, articles and more
-- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
-- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)

PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com

Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


0
Bill
6/15/2001 5:54:41 PM
My apologies on the name question. We're pretty used to some people who like to
trash the products but won't reveal their real identities, so we tend to err on
the side of caution for the most part.

I've written several diatribes on Sybase's marketing, where it's improving,
where it still needs improving, so I am not going to go into it again. You can
check out the various threads I ahve posted on the subject if it's worth your
time. Most of us in these forums are defenders, so this argument could go on
forever when it really shouldn't. People should start taking the time to tell
their story to their sales reps, customer service reps, whoever will listen. If
the voices become loud enough, they will reach the right ears. I will end off
by saying that I'm in agreement regarding the marketing complaints - have been
for some time - but I also know a little bit about what Sybase is doing in
terms of the bigger picture, so all I can say is hopefully, it will get better.

regards,
Bill

So_Long_Yu wrote:

> Hi Bill.
>
> Sounds funny, I know.  But my real name actually IS So Long Yu.  I even
> have the driver's license to prove it!
>
> And, by "Sybase Defender," I mean someone who has used / promoted every
> version of PowerBuilder since 2.0, as well as several other Sybase products
> (EA Server & Studio, PowerJ, ASA, ASE, even Optima++ for goodness' sake!).
> Of course I don't use Sybase products exclusively.  That's why I am able to
> compare and contrast Sybase's marketing strategies with those of other
> companies.
>
> Throughout the years, Sybase has made their fair share of marketing
> blunders, etc.  Even during the "ignore PowerBuilder altogether" years I've
> always defended Sybase, citing the technical superiority of PowerBuilder
> over competing products.  Same thing during the period when the application
> server wars were truly being waged.  But, enough is enough.  Sybase can't
> continue to expect us to promote their products.
>
> I DO hang out it the WebSphere and WebLogic newsgroups, and I've never once
> seen a posting there suggesting that we developers need to help evangelize
> the product to ensure its success.  Never.

--
Bill Green[TeamSybase]
-----------------------------------------------------------
Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards
http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/


Good Links to know, good places to go:

Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often
Find things like:
-- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available
-- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available
-- Components, White papers, articles and more
-- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
-- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)

PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com

Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


0
Bill
6/15/2001 6:05:08 PM
My company is a Sybase Partner.  As a partner we get the developer version 
of EAStudio.  I was told by my Sybase partner representative that I could 
not get PB 8 until EAStudio 4 comes out.  He never got back to me on when 
that would be, except to say later this year.  I think this is a poor 
strategy on Sybase's part.  I would think they would want to get the new 
product into the hands of their partners as soon as possible.  But no, that 
doesn't seem to be the case.
0
geneh
6/15/2001 6:33:50 PM
Bill, I agree partially with you.

I know that Linux market is still small, but it's growing exponentially.

So, this is a very conservative posture. In business world, the demand is
sometimes created, not asked for. Also,  in this same world, run first, 99%
of times, means win.

Did you thought about having a mobile phone a few years ago? Now, everbody
has one..

If Sybase gets late to see a Linux demand, should be later to do something,
when most developers already are using other tools like Delphi, Java or same
C# and VB.Net. A software can't be done from night to day.

If is heavily expensive to make a product with potential market to it,
satisfying existing customers, renewing product life-cycle, opening new
markets, it's a bigger cost get back older disappointed customers ...

But, if Powerbuilder didn't  worth what it's invested on it, and Sybase is
not interested in its future, I just can say that this is a marketing
problem, because it's really a big tool. I use it since 4.0, and I'm happy
because of high compatibility between versions, and relevant new features
being added each version.

Wendell.

"Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message
news:3B2A4BE1.D2DEF3E1@teamsybase.com...
> I urge you to call your Sybase Sales Rep and tell them what you are saying
here.
> However, you have to also understand that even if there are a 100
> developers/companies that want PB/Linux, that is a small percentage of the
PB
> population, so the bottom line is to keep asking. If the demand increases,
then
> perhaps something would be done.
>
> regards,
> Bill
>
> Wendell Rios wrote:
>
> > Dave and all,
> >
> > I just want to say that I agree completeley with you, mainly in second
> > issue. By now, we are clearing starting two separate threads in future
> > desktop and server development : Windows or Linux.
> >
> > Staying with Windows, more earlier than imagined, will be needed to
support
> > the CLR and .NET framework. I believe that soon Microsoft will do all
that
> > is possible to cut Java development in Windows machines, mainly because
they
> > (MS), are not permitted to do nothing in this field.  I also know that
> > EAServer is a great product, very better thant MTS for example, and will
> > find it market earlier or late.
> >
> > However, I'm afraid about Powerbuilder future, that to me is the best
and
> > RAID, open, development tool for database applications , regarding this
> > applications are 2 or n-tier. Powerbuilder concepts, mainly Datawindow,
are
> > great, and I want to stay with them, maybe forever..
> >
> > I have about 10 big applications client-server, n-tier and Internet
written
> > in PB, EAServer or MTS that are linked to Windows environment. I'm
terrified
> > about Linux growth, because none of them are compatible, nor the server
> > object, nor the user interface (obviously, excluding the interface of
> > Internet  apps). If we got a PB Linux version, like Borland it's doing
with
> > Kylinx, I would relax and wait to see who will win. Maybe we should make
a
> > "chain" of signatures that comprise what developers think about a PB
Linux
> > version, with cc to sybase marketing. PB is a big product, maybe the
better,
> > don't let it die..
> >
> > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > news:3B2A4221.2925E5BB@prescriber.com...
> > > Roy,
> > >
> > > This whole thread (at least my portion of it) is centered around two
beefs
> > > which, in my mind, are interrelated.
> > >
> > > 1) Sybase marketing.  We all agree things need to get better.  I
agree,
> > everyone
> > > should help bang the EAServer drum.  The point I was trying to make
is,
> > it's
> > > hard to bang the drum when the maker of the drum isn't banging the
drum as
> > > well.  Programs are in motion, etc.  Enough said!
> > >
> > > 2) PB will not be ported to Linux.
> > >
> > > I've got a Windows PB/EAServer application that I need to move to
Linux.
> > We've
> > > established that I won't be able to do this without first rewriting my
PB
> > > components in Java.  I don't have the time to do a transitional
migration
> > > (convert PB components one by one to Java on my current platform -
> > although I've
> > > started mapping out this process).  Obviously, moving directly from
> > Windows to
> > > Linux without a language change would be the preferred route.  I'm a
firm
> > > believer in the notion of "If it isn't broken, don't fix it".
> > Translation: if
> > > my application is running on Linuix using PB components, I'd be
happier
> > than a
> > > pig in @#%! to stay with PB components and EAServer.  Moving to Java
is
> > not a
> > > bad thing, it's just time consuming (coding, QA, etc.).  Yes, it would
> > certainly
> > > raise my stock as a consultant.  The point I was trying to make is
this,
> > if my
> > > application is converted to Java I now have the freedom to deploy to
other
> > > application servers.  This is where the issue of customers asking
about
> > > WebSphere and WebLogic ties in (because they are unfamiliar with
> > EAServer).  I
> > > was just trying to make the point that the jump to another application
> > server
> > > would now be possible.  We all know, if a client is willing to buy
your
> > > application if it will run on their favorite application server, we'd
be
> > > inclined to comply.  Currently, and for obvious reasons, when asked
about
> > those
> > > other application servers, I always talk up EAServer.
> > >
> > > I know we all live in an era of open technology and It's great.  From
a
> > purely
> > > marketing point of view, I would think Sybase would want to keep their
PB
> > > developers (i.e. $$$$), for lack of a better word, locked in.
> > >
> > > My situation aside, Linux is a logical migration for Windows
client/server
> > and
> > > EAServer developers.  I guess I'm the first person wishing to make
this
> > > transition.  I don't think I'll be the last...
> > >
> > > I appreciate your defense of EAServer.  It really is a great product.
> > But, on
> > > the other hand, stripping it of a truly unique feature (especially on
an
> > up and
> > > coming platform), waters it down and brings it back closer to the
pack.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > >
> > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> > >
> > > > David,
> > > >
> > > > See comments inline...
> > > >
> > > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:3B2934FA.353A127A@prescriber.com...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > <snip>
> > > > > I guess my point is, if the decision makers read only about
WebSphere
> > and
> > > > > WebLogic, chances are they won't be buying an EAServer license
when
> > forced
> > > > to
> > > > > switch to Java.  Especially, since WebSphere offers a free
developers
> > > > license.
> > > >
> > > > Valid point. Just FYI, decision makers are getting introduced to
> > EAServer
> > > > (and related technologies like E-Portal, Financial Fusion and
iAnywhere
> > > > m-Business Studio) in both print and media, targeted exactly at
those
> > > > "decision makers" (read: don't look for it in PBDJ or JDJ, although
> > these
> > > > publications do have ads for developers.)
> > > >
> > > > > Sure, it expands opportunities.  Opportunities to move away from a
> > > > relatively
> > > > > unknown product to a more widely know product.  Remember who makes
the
> > buy
> > > > > decisions.  Not always the most qualified or knowledgeable
people...
> > > >
> > > > As I mentioned, that's changing, but it won't happen overnight.
> > > >
> > > > > Agreed, but it needs to start happening soon.  I don't know the
> > > > advertising side
> > > > > of the business but, I would think buying advertising space
doesn't
> > take a
> > > > great
> > > > > deal of work, does it?
> > > >
> > > > Buying ad space is not the issue -- designing ad campaigns that hit
the
> > nail
> > > > on the head is. That takes time...
> > > >
> > > > > I agree, adding Java is no detriment.  It would certainly provide
more
> > > > business
> > > > > opportunities.  Sounds like you're asking me to do what the
marketing
> > > > people
> > > > > should be doing.  I don't mind doing that.  However, it would far
> > easier
> > > > to
> > > > > mention EAServer if the CIO/CTO has read something about it ahead
of
> > time.
> > > >
> > > > I am not asking you to do anything -- I am telling you what I and
other
> > > > TeamSybase folks are doing -- we believe in Sybase product and we
> > evangelise
> > > > them. What you're asking is for Sybase to do the leg work, so you
can
> > reap
> > > > the consulting gig benefits -- not to say that this is
inappropriate; on
> > the
> > > > contrary. Nevertheless, if you'll just sit there and wait for it to
> > happen,
> > > > it will, but it will take a while. If you take the active approach
and
> > > > parttake in the evalgelism effort, you'll reap the benefits much
sooner.
> > > >
> > > > > OK, It's obvious Sybase isn't going to port PB to Linux, sigh.  So
> > let's
> > > > stop
> > > > > beating this horse to death.  I lose - uncle!
> > > >
> > > > Linux? Is that what this was all about? <g>
> > > >
> > > > I agree. But in all seriousness, many of this rant sessions (keep'em
> > > > comin' -- they keep us all sharp) boil down to one thing; do you
believe
> > in
> > > > a particular Sybase product? If so, step up on your soap box and
speak
> > > > out -- we'll al benefit from it. Have a problem with a product? By
all
> > > > means, tell us about it in the newsgroups, but don't stop there;
Open a
> > case
> > > > and follow up.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > <hopethishelps />
> > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > > > http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
> > >
>
> --
> Bill Green[TeamSybase]
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards
> http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/
>
>
> Good Links to know, good places to go:
>
> Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often
> Find things like:
> -- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available
> -- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available
> -- Components, White papers, articles and more
> -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
> -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)
>
> PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com
>
> Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
> Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
>


0
Wendell
6/15/2001 7:43:53 PM
I suggest someone starts a web poll and post the link to the PB/EAS
newsgroups, it would have least get some numbers for Sybase to ponder
over.

A.

Wendell Rios wrote:
> 
> Bill, I agree partially with you.
> 
> I know that Linux market is still small, but it's growing exponentially.
> 
> So, this is a very conservative posture. In business world, the demand is
> sometimes created, not asked for. Also,  in this same world, run first, 99%
> of times, means win.
> 
> Did you thought about having a mobile phone a few years ago? Now, everbody
> has one..
> 
> If Sybase gets late to see a Linux demand, should be later to do something,
> when most developers already are using other tools like Delphi, Java or same
> C# and VB.Net. A software can't be done from night to day.
> 
> If is heavily expensive to make a product with potential market to it,
> satisfying existing customers, renewing product life-cycle, opening new
> markets, it's a bigger cost get back older disappointed customers ...
> 
> But, if Powerbuilder didn't  worth what it's invested on it, and Sybase is
> not interested in its future, I just can say that this is a marketing
> problem, because it's really a big tool. I use it since 4.0, and I'm happy
> because of high compatibility between versions, and relevant new features
> being added each version.
> 
> Wendell.
> 
> "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message
> news:3B2A4BE1.D2DEF3E1@teamsybase.com...
> > I urge you to call your Sybase Sales Rep and tell them what you are saying
> here.
> > However, you have to also understand that even if there are a 100
> > developers/companies that want PB/Linux, that is a small percentage of the
> PB
> > population, so the bottom line is to keep asking. If the demand increases,
> then
> > perhaps something would be done.
> >
> > regards,
> > Bill
> >
> > Wendell Rios wrote:
> >
> > > Dave and all,
> > >
> > > I just want to say that I agree completeley with you, mainly in second
> > > issue. By now, we are clearing starting two separate threads in future
> > > desktop and server development : Windows or Linux.
> > >
> > > Staying with Windows, more earlier than imagined, will be needed to
> support
> > > the CLR and .NET framework. I believe that soon Microsoft will do all
> that
> > > is possible to cut Java development in Windows machines, mainly because
> they
> > > (MS), are not permitted to do nothing in this field.  I also know that
> > > EAServer is a great product, very better thant MTS for example, and will
> > > find it market earlier or late.
> > >
> > > However, I'm afraid about Powerbuilder future, that to me is the best
> and
> > > RAID, open, development tool for database applications , regarding this
> > > applications are 2 or n-tier. Powerbuilder concepts, mainly Datawindow,
> are
> > > great, and I want to stay with them, maybe forever..
> > >
> > > I have about 10 big applications client-server, n-tier and Internet
> written
> > > in PB, EAServer or MTS that are linked to Windows environment. I'm
> terrified
> > > about Linux growth, because none of them are compatible, nor the server
> > > object, nor the user interface (obviously, excluding the interface of
> > > Internet  apps). If we got a PB Linux version, like Borland it's doing
> with
> > > Kylinx, I would relax and wait to see who will win. Maybe we should make
> a
> > > "chain" of signatures that comprise what developers think about a PB
> Linux
> > > version, with cc to sybase marketing. PB is a big product, maybe the
> better,
> > > don't let it die..
> > >
> > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3B2A4221.2925E5BB@prescriber.com...
> > > > Roy,
> > > >
> > > > This whole thread (at least my portion of it) is centered around two
> beefs
> > > > which, in my mind, are interrelated.
> > > >
> > > > 1) Sybase marketing.  We all agree things need to get better.  I
> agree,
> > > everyone
> > > > should help bang the EAServer drum.  The point I was trying to make
> is,
> > > it's
> > > > hard to bang the drum when the maker of the drum isn't banging the
> drum as
> > > > well.  Programs are in motion, etc.  Enough said!
> > > >
> > > > 2) PB will not be ported to Linux.
> > > >
> > > > I've got a Windows PB/EAServer application that I need to move to
> Linux.
> > > We've
> > > > established that I won't be able to do this without first rewriting my
> PB
> > > > components in Java.  I don't have the time to do a transitional
> migration
> > > > (convert PB components one by one to Java on my current platform -
> > > although I've
> > > > started mapping out this process).  Obviously, moving directly from
> > > Windows to
> > > > Linux without a language change would be the preferred route.  I'm a
> firm
> > > > believer in the notion of "If it isn't broken, don't fix it".
> > > Translation: if
> > > > my application is running on Linuix using PB components, I'd be
> happier
> > > than a
> > > > pig in @#%! to stay with PB components and EAServer.  Moving to Java
> is
> > > not a
> > > > bad thing, it's just time consuming (coding, QA, etc.).  Yes, it would
> > > certainly
> > > > raise my stock as a consultant.  The point I was trying to make is
> this,
> > > if my
> > > > application is converted to Java I now have the freedom to deploy to
> other
> > > > application servers.  This is where the issue of customers asking
> about
> > > > WebSphere and WebLogic ties in (because they are unfamiliar with
> > > EAServer).  I
> > > > was just trying to make the point that the jump to another application
> > > server
> > > > would now be possible.  We all know, if a client is willing to buy
> your
> > > > application if it will run on their favorite application server, we'd
> be
> > > > inclined to comply.  Currently, and for obvious reasons, when asked
> about
> > > those
> > > > other application servers, I always talk up EAServer.
> > > >
> > > > I know we all live in an era of open technology and It's great.  From
> a
> > > purely
> > > > marketing point of view, I would think Sybase would want to keep their
> PB
> > > > developers (i.e. $$$$), for lack of a better word, locked in.
> > > >
> > > > My situation aside, Linux is a logical migration for Windows
> client/server
> > > and
> > > > EAServer developers.  I guess I'm the first person wishing to make
> this
> > > > transition.  I don't think I'll be the last...
> > > >
> > > > I appreciate your defense of EAServer.  It really is a great product.
> > > But, on
> > > > the other hand, stripping it of a truly unique feature (especially on
> an
> > > up and
> > > > coming platform), waters it down and brings it back closer to the
> pack.
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > David,
> > > > >
> > > > > See comments inline...
> > > > >
> > > > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3B2934FA.353A127A@prescriber.com...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > <snip>
> > > > > > I guess my point is, if the decision makers read only about
> WebSphere
> > > and
> > > > > > WebLogic, chances are they won't be buying an EAServer license
> when
> > > forced
> > > > > to
> > > > > > switch to Java.  Especially, since WebSphere offers a free
> developers
> > > > > license.
> > > > >
> > > > > Valid point. Just FYI, decision makers are getting introduced to
> > > EAServer
> > > > > (and related technologies like E-Portal, Financial Fusion and
> iAnywhere
> > > > > m-Business Studio) in both print and media, targeted exactly at
> those
> > > > > "decision makers" (read: don't look for it in PBDJ or JDJ, although
> > > these
> > > > > publications do have ads for developers.)
> > > > >
> > > > > > Sure, it expands opportunities.  Opportunities to move away from a
> > > > > relatively
> > > > > > unknown product to a more widely know product.  Remember who makes
> the
> > > buy
> > > > > > decisions.  Not always the most qualified or knowledgeable
> people...
> > > > >
> > > > > As I mentioned, that's changing, but it won't happen overnight.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Agreed, but it needs to start happening soon.  I don't know the
> > > > > advertising side
> > > > > > of the business but, I would think buying advertising space
> doesn't
> > > take a
> > > > > great
> > > > > > deal of work, does it?
> > > > >
> > > > > Buying ad space is not the issue -- designing ad campaigns that hit
> the
> > > nail
> > > > > on the head is. That takes time...
> > > > >
> > > > > > I agree, adding Java is no detriment.  It would certainly provide
> more
> > > > > business
> > > > > > opportunities.  Sounds like you're asking me to do what the
> marketing
> > > > > people
> > > > > > should be doing.  I don't mind doing that.  However, it would far
> > > easier
> > > > > to
> > > > > > mention EAServer if the CIO/CTO has read something about it ahead
> of
> > > time.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am not asking you to do anything -- I am telling you what I and
> other
> > > > > TeamSybase folks are doing -- we believe in Sybase product and we
> > > evangelise
> > > > > them. What you're asking is for Sybase to do the leg work, so you
> can
> > > reap
> > > > > the consulting gig benefits -- not to say that this is
> inappropriate; on
> > > the
> > > > > contrary. Nevertheless, if you'll just sit there and wait for it to
> > > happen,
> > > > > it will, but it will take a while. If you take the active approach
> and
> > > > > parttake in the evalgelism effort, you'll reap the benefits much
> sooner.
> > > > >
> > > > > > OK, It's obvious Sybase isn't going to port PB to Linux, sigh.  So
> > > let's
> > > > > stop
> > > > > > beating this horse to death.  I lose - uncle!
> > > > >
> > > > > Linux? Is that what this was all about? <g>
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree. But in all seriousness, many of this rant sessions (keep'em
> > > > > comin' -- they keep us all sharp) boil down to one thing; do you
> believe
> > > in
> > > > > a particular Sybase product? If so, step up on your soap box and
> speak
> > > > > out -- we'll al benefit from it. Have a problem with a product? By
> all
> > > > > means, tell us about it in the newsgroups, but don't stop there;
> Open a
> > > case
> > > > > and follow up.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > <hopethishelps />
> > > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > > > > http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
> > > >
> >
> > --
> > Bill Green[TeamSybase]
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards
> > http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/
> >
> >
> > Good Links to know, good places to go:
> >
> > Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often
> > Find things like:
> > -- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available
> > -- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available
> > -- Components, White papers, articles and more
> > -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
> > -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)
> >
> > PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com
> >
> > Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
> > Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >

-- 
__________________________

Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
System Architect
ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
The University of Sydney
Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
Mobile: +61 403 341 474
Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711
0
Adam
6/16/2001 1:36:48 AM
Please see a corrective post from Sue Donnell at Sybase on this forum. If
you have a USP, you should be all set. Your partner rep. may not have had
the latest information when you last talked.

--
<hopethishelps />
Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231

<geneh> wrote in message
news:18769C230219FE210065F9A085256A6C.006BF7BB85256A6B@webforums...
> My company is a Sybase Partner.  As a partner we get the developer version
> of EAStudio.  I was told by my Sybase partner representative that I could
> not get PB 8 until EAStudio 4 comes out.  He never got back to me on when
> that would be, except to say later this year.  I think this is a poor
> strategy on Sybase's part.  I would think they would want to get the new
> product into the hands of their partners as soon as possible.  But no,
that
> doesn't seem to be the case.


0
Roy
6/17/2001 10:54:38 PM
I just want to point out Sybase does have a solution for Linux. EAServer and
PowerJ. It appearent that Linux application will be written in Java.

--
Dean Jones TeamSybase
PowerTeam, Inc.
www.powerobjects.com
WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
Come visit our booth at TechWave
EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar


"Wendell Rios" <walmeida@tecnotrends.com.br> wrote in message
news:fEhEiYc9AHA.194@forums.sybase.com...
> Dave and all,
>
> I just want to say that I agree completeley with you, mainly in second
> issue. By now, we are clearing starting two separate threads in future
> desktop and server development : Windows or Linux.
>
> Staying with Windows, more earlier than imagined, will be needed to
support
> the CLR and .NET framework. I believe that soon Microsoft will do all that
> is possible to cut Java development in Windows machines, mainly because
they
> (MS), are not permitted to do nothing in this field.  I also know that
> EAServer is a great product, very better thant MTS for example, and will
> find it market earlier or late.
>
> However, I'm afraid about Powerbuilder future, that to me is the best and
> RAID, open, development tool for database applications , regarding this
> applications are 2 or n-tier. Powerbuilder concepts, mainly Datawindow,
are
> great, and I want to stay with them, maybe forever..
>
> I have about 10 big applications client-server, n-tier and Internet
written
> in PB, EAServer or MTS that are linked to Windows environment. I'm
terrified
> about Linux growth, because none of them are compatible, nor the server
> object, nor the user interface (obviously, excluding the interface of
> Internet  apps). If we got a PB Linux version, like Borland it's doing
with
> Kylinx, I would relax and wait to see who will win. Maybe we should make a
> "chain" of signatures that comprise what developers think about a PB Linux
> version, with cc to sybase marketing. PB is a big product, maybe the
better,
> don't let it die..
>
> "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> news:3B2A4221.2925E5BB@prescriber.com...
> > Roy,
> >
> > This whole thread (at least my portion of it) is centered around two
beefs
> > which, in my mind, are interrelated.
> >
> > 1) Sybase marketing.  We all agree things need to get better.  I agree,
> everyone
> > should help bang the EAServer drum.  The point I was trying to make is,
> it's
> > hard to bang the drum when the maker of the drum isn't banging the drum
as
> > well.  Programs are in motion, etc.  Enough said!
> >
> > 2) PB will not be ported to Linux.
> >
> > I've got a Windows PB/EAServer application that I need to move to Linux.
> We've
> > established that I won't be able to do this without first rewriting my
PB
> > components in Java.  I don't have the time to do a transitional
migration
> > (convert PB components one by one to Java on my current platform -
> although I've
> > started mapping out this process).  Obviously, moving directly from
> Windows to
> > Linux without a language change would be the preferred route.  I'm a
firm
> > believer in the notion of "If it isn't broken, don't fix it".
> Translation: if
> > my application is running on Linuix using PB components, I'd be happier
> than a
> > pig in @#%! to stay with PB components and EAServer.  Moving to Java is
> not a
> > bad thing, it's just time consuming (coding, QA, etc.).  Yes, it would
> certainly
> > raise my stock as a consultant.  The point I was trying to make is this,
> if my
> > application is converted to Java I now have the freedom to deploy to
other
> > application servers.  This is where the issue of customers asking about
> > WebSphere and WebLogic ties in (because they are unfamiliar with
> EAServer).  I
> > was just trying to make the point that the jump to another application
> server
> > would now be possible.  We all know, if a client is willing to buy your
> > application if it will run on their favorite application server, we'd be
> > inclined to comply.  Currently, and for obvious reasons, when asked
about
> those
> > other application servers, I always talk up EAServer.
> >
> > I know we all live in an era of open technology and It's great.  From a
> purely
> > marketing point of view, I would think Sybase would want to keep their
PB
> > developers (i.e. $$$$), for lack of a better word, locked in.
> >
> > My situation aside, Linux is a logical migration for Windows
client/server
> and
> > EAServer developers.  I guess I'm the first person wishing to make this
> > transition.  I don't think I'll be the last...
> >
> > I appreciate your defense of EAServer.  It really is a great product.
> But, on
> > the other hand, stripping it of a truly unique feature (especially on an
> up and
> > coming platform), waters it down and brings it back closer to the pack.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> >
> > > David,
> > >
> > > See comments inline...
> > >
> > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3B2934FA.353A127A@prescriber.com...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > <snip>
> > > > I guess my point is, if the decision makers read only about
WebSphere
> and
> > > > WebLogic, chances are they won't be buying an EAServer license when
> forced
> > > to
> > > > switch to Java.  Especially, since WebSphere offers a free
developers
> > > license.
> > >
> > > Valid point. Just FYI, decision makers are getting introduced to
> EAServer
> > > (and related technologies like E-Portal, Financial Fusion and
iAnywhere
> > > m-Business Studio) in both print and media, targeted exactly at those
> > > "decision makers" (read: don't look for it in PBDJ or JDJ, although
> these
> > > publications do have ads for developers.)
> > >
> > > > Sure, it expands opportunities.  Opportunities to move away from a
> > > relatively
> > > > unknown product to a more widely know product.  Remember who makes
the
> buy
> > > > decisions.  Not always the most qualified or knowledgeable people...
> > >
> > > As I mentioned, that's changing, but it won't happen overnight.
> > >
> > > > Agreed, but it needs to start happening soon.  I don't know the
> > > advertising side
> > > > of the business but, I would think buying advertising space doesn't
> take a
> > > great
> > > > deal of work, does it?
> > >
> > > Buying ad space is not the issue -- designing ad campaigns that hit
the
> nail
> > > on the head is. That takes time...
> > >
> > > > I agree, adding Java is no detriment.  It would certainly provide
more
> > > business
> > > > opportunities.  Sounds like you're asking me to do what the
marketing
> > > people
> > > > should be doing.  I don't mind doing that.  However, it would far
> easier
> > > to
> > > > mention EAServer if the CIO/CTO has read something about it ahead of
> time.
> > >
> > > I am not asking you to do anything -- I am telling you what I and
other
> > > TeamSybase folks are doing -- we believe in Sybase product and we
> evangelise
> > > them. What you're asking is for Sybase to do the leg work, so you can
> reap
> > > the consulting gig benefits -- not to say that this is inappropriate;
on
> the
> > > contrary. Nevertheless, if you'll just sit there and wait for it to
> happen,
> > > it will, but it will take a while. If you take the active approach and
> > > parttake in the evalgelism effort, you'll reap the benefits much
sooner.
> > >
> > > > OK, It's obvious Sybase isn't going to port PB to Linux, sigh.  So
> let's
> > > stop
> > > > beating this horse to death.  I lose - uncle!
> > >
> > > Linux? Is that what this was all about? <g>
> > >
> > > I agree. But in all seriousness, many of this rant sessions (keep'em
> > > comin' -- they keep us all sharp) boil down to one thing; do you
believe
> in
> > > a particular Sybase product? If so, step up on your soap box and speak
> > > out -- we'll al benefit from it. Have a problem with a product? By all
> > > means, tell us about it in the newsgroups, but don't stop there; Open
a
> case
> > > and follow up.
> > >
> > > --
> > > <hopethishelps />
> > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > > http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
> >
>
>


0
Dean
6/18/2001 3:08:39 PM
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm a consultant and I work with what
ever tools make me money. <G>

It's ok to complain. The upgrade plan you stated for PB8 does not seem fair.
But I don't know if what you are saying is true. I'm waiting to hear from
Sybase management.

Your opinion is important. It's also import to remember; complain to improve
the situation. If you have made your decision to move on, just move on.
That's all I ask.

--
Dean Jones TeamSybase
PowerTeam, Inc.
www.powerobjects.com
WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
Come visit our booth at TechWave
EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar


<So_Long_Yu> wrote in message
news:E0750AF38B76AE500056D15185256A6C.006ECE9D85256A6B@webforums...
> Depending upon which message you are referring to, the "we" represents my
> company, or developers in general.
>
> By the way, my name really is So Long Yu, it was given to me as a child
and
> when my family migrated to the US from Taiwan my family all kept their
real
> names instead of taking the ones that they try to assign you at
> immigration.  Yes, I know my name sounds funny too -- oh well, I like it.
>
> The company name is not important, and frankly I'm surprised that you
would
> attempt to change the subject.  Yet, then again, that is actually another
> example of the problem with Sybase (accept no responsibility, it's not our
> fault, etc.).
>
> Yes, Dean.  Very good.  How long did it take you to figure out that I like
> (SOME) Sybase tools? ;>)  In many, many previous postings I've said as
much
> (I've also indicated my long-time role as Sybase Defender).  Incidentally,
> the very fact that Sybase Defenders are needed should be telling Sybase
> something is wrong.
>
> However, make no mistake about it -- in America, we are free to express
our
> opinions.  And I will continue to do so as I please - - at least my
> opinions are based on facts.  And I want all Sybase customers to know
about
> the foolish and greedy strategy Sybase has (according to the customer
> service rep) implemented with regards to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade.  If
> you view that as complaining strictly for complaining's sake or doing so
> without merit, so be it.
>
> Now, as far as other tools are concerned -- that's where you are wrong.  I
> use BEA, SilverStream, Cold Fusion, JRun, etc. etc. and I like them a lot.
>
> Question for you -- why does it seem that SOME of the TeamSybase members
> personalize the critical comments directed at Sybase tools?
>
> Another question -- as a TeamSybase member, do you receive your Sybase
> products for free?


0
Dean
6/18/2001 3:17:03 PM
Yes, and they never have the latest information, even when a product has
been out for a few months. The person I spoke to didn't even know what terms
the EAStudio USP had...nor did the person know that PB was bundled with
EAStudio until the person flipped through some papers to read it. How
comforting is that?

And this is little consolation considering all the frustrations that I went
through being bounced around to one rep after another with major attitude.

Sybase should have ironed out all the details before they even released PB8.
Yeah...piss off and confuse the hell out of your customers, then release the
product and hope that they would buy it... Ah...I remember that one in
Marketing 101 back in college...

Nice going Sybase...


"Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in
message news:8v4gUQ49AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> Please see a corrective post from Sue Donnell at Sybase on this forum. If
> you have a USP, you should be all set. Your partner rep. may not have had
> the latest information when you last talked.
>
> --
> <hopethishelps />
> Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
>
> <geneh> wrote in message
> news:18769C230219FE210065F9A085256A6C.006BF7BB85256A6B@webforums...
> > My company is a Sybase Partner.  As a partner we get the developer
version
> > of EAStudio.  I was told by my Sybase partner representative that I
could
> > not get PB 8 until EAStudio 4 comes out.  He never got back to me on
when
> > that would be, except to say later this year.  I think this is a poor
> > strategy on Sybase's part.  I would think they would want to get the new
> > product into the hands of their partners as soon as possible.  But no,
> that
> > doesn't seem to be the case.
>
>


0
Nick
6/18/2001 3:29:42 PM
Amen to that. I'm sure there are many many more who are like you and me. I
used to be the biggest Sybase defender, even to upper management. Those days
are long gone!

In fact, I'll be joining you in doing myself a favor...let me open up my web
browser and check them out!!!

Sybase
R.I.P.

<So_Long_Yu> wrote in message
news:5A6E3AA3D3FACC35005F3E7685256A6A.0046863285256A65@webforums...
> Bleak at best, given the typical Sybase mismanagement of product
marketing,
> customer service, etc.
>
> Here's the latest:
> Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released PowerBuilder 8
> today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't actually GET it
> now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is available.
>
> Now that's interesting -- the product is released, but not available.
> Clever.
>
> Oh, and all you EA Studio customers -- guess what else Sybase has come up
> with?  Despite the fact that PowerBuilder is a part of EA Studio, and
> despite the fact that you may be an EA Studio and EA Server customer, you
> are NOT entitled to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade!  Yep, you got it.  This is
> even better than it sounds, because many of you, like us, were originally
> PowerBuilder Enterprise customers, and then Sybase came along and
> AUTOMATICALLY upgraded you to be EA Studio customers (when PB 7 came out).
> Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the PowerBuilder
> upgrade?!
>
> Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one of
> you.  Give it up.  Spare us the typically excuses and finger pointing
about
> why all of this is actually OUR fault or why this is actually a GOOD thing
> for us or why we should be the one marketing your freaking product because
> it will be more believable coming from us.  You have continually SH*T on
> your customers.  At this point it doesn't even matter how good or bad the
> product is.  It doesn't matter that there happen to be a few good Sybase
> engineers who do what they can in this and other newsgroups to help out.
> You are so far behind in the application server market that it just
doesn't
> matter anyway.  That battle was lost a long time ago; if you really think
> you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must figure it will be
> through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how they can
leverage
> PB within EA Server.  Problem is, you can't piss off those customers FAST
> enough, apparently.  So now you've come up with another w
> ay to do it.
>
> Folks, do yourselves a favor:
> http://developer.bea.com/index.jsp
> http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/
>


0
Nick
6/18/2001 3:31:54 PM

"Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]" <asimmond@mail.usyd.edu.au> wrote in message
news:3B282C53.2AAE5F1A@mail.usyd.edu.au...
> >>Here's the latest: Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just
released
> >>PowerBuilder 8  today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you
can't
> >>actually GET it  now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is
> available.
> Well its kind of nice to know in advance so you can build into your
project
> plans when you will migrate and who will be involved etc. How long did
> microsoft make us to wait for win95????

So you are saying Sybase is just as bad as Microsoft...except much weaker as
a company...just because Microsoft does it that way doesn't make it OK sor
Sybase...in fact I don't think at this stage, Sybase can afford to be making
silly mistakes like this.

>
> >>Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the PowerBuilder
> >>upgrade?!
> Sybase are a profit organisation and if PB8 is such a good product ( which
I
> believe it will be ) then they deserve to reap the rewards from it. I
would
> imagine that if you developed a good product you would want some money for
it?
> I don't imagine development tools for Oracle, BEA or IBM come cheap
either.

Yeah...I'm also a victim of this lie. They sure don't act like they want to
make profits from me. Maybe Sybase forgot to take their marketing classes. I
agree that PB8 looks nice...compared to the previous versions of PB. But
nothing innovative...it's just that a bunch of stuff that was missing
finally made it to a PB version that's all. I'm not really all that
impressed looking at the Beta version.  Oracle, BEA, IBM? I think Sybase
really needs to differentiate themselves from these companies since it is
getting its butt kicked. Do something different..."Think Different",
stealing  a phrase from Apple...sorry! Make me want to use Sybase
Tools...give me a reason to stick with Sybase. So far, NOTHING.

>
> >>Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one of
> >>you.  Give it up.
> Well I admit to being a sybase defender and attacker. I think they have a
great
> suite of products and they certainly have proven themselves over the
years. EAS
> is a superb product. On the other hand I agree that marketing and support
need
> some polishing, but those facts alone are not good enough reasons to give
up on
> solid development tools.

I agree, but from a management's perspective...I am a decision maker in a
large financial institution and I always have to come up with some lousy
excuse to defend Sybase. But if upper management decides that Sybase is not
a reliable enough company, that's it, it's over...they would much rather
invest in tools made by the big names like Oracle and MS than Sybase. So
it's not just the tools some of us need to worry about. Not all of us are
tech-heads who are blind to management's thoughts.

>
> >>if you really think you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you
must
> >>figure it will be through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out
how
> they >>can leverage PB within EA Server.
> I agree with you on this but you're just bringing up what has been
discussed (
> in a better tone ) on many occasions before.

Which kind of confirms the thought...move on...get out...jump ship before it
sinks.

>
> Best of luck
>
> A.

Yes, best of luck to Sybase...let's see if Sybase stocks will drop to a
point where buying a Big Mac will be more expensive.

>
> So_Long_Yu wrote:
>
> > Bleak at best, given the typical Sybase mismanagement of product
marketing,
> > customer service, etc.
> >
> > Here's the latest:
> > Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released PowerBuilder 8
> > today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't actually GET
it
> > now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is available.
> >
> > Now that's interesting -- the product is released, but not available.
> > Clever.
> >
> > Oh, and all you EA Studio customers -- guess what else Sybase has come
up
> > with?  Despite the fact that PowerBuilder is a part of EA Studio, and
> > despite the fact that you may be an EA Studio and EA Server customer,
you
> > are NOT entitled to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade!  Yep, you got it.  This
is
> > even better than it sounds, because many of you, like us, were
originally
> > PowerBuilder Enterprise customers, and then Sybase came along and
> > AUTOMATICALLY upgraded you to be EA Studio customers (when PB 7 came
out).
> > Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the PowerBuilder
> > upgrade?!
> >
> > Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one of
> > you.  Give it up.  Spare us the typically excuses and finger pointing
about
> > why all of this is actually OUR fault or why this is actually a GOOD
thing
> > for us or why we should be the one marketing your freaking product
because
> > it will be more believable coming from us.  You have continually SH*T on
> > your customers.  At this point it doesn't even matter how good or bad
the
> > product is.  It doesn't matter that there happen to be a few good Sybase
> > engineers who do what they can in this and other newsgroups to help out.
> > You are so far behind in the application server market that it just
doesn't
> > matter anyway.  That battle was lost a long time ago; if you really
think
> > you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must figure it will
be
> > through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how they can
leverage
> > PB within EA Server.  Problem is, you can't piss off those customers
FAST
> > enough, apparently.  So now you've come up with another w
> > ay to do it.
> >
> > Folks, do yourselves a favor:
> > http://developer.bea.com/index.jsp
> > http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/
>
> --
> __________________________
>
> Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
> System Architect
> ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
> The University of Sydney
> Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
> Mobile: +61 403 341 474
> Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711
>
>


0
Nick
6/18/2001 3:46:45 PM
Nick
I am not looking for an argument and this topic has been debated many
times. I understand your frustrations and I have to deal through Sybase
Support in Sydney which gives me a headache everytime I do.

I could react to your comments and then you react some more and at the
end of the day we get nowhere. I believe you have made your point and it
has reached the necessary people. If nothing happens then you do have
choices. I would rather see you stay with Sybase but no one here is
going to continue to argue with you when you have your mind already made
up.

A.

"Nick N." wrote:
> 
> "Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]" <asimmond@mail.usyd.edu.au> wrote in message
> news:3B282C53.2AAE5F1A@mail.usyd.edu.au...
> > >>Here's the latest: Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just
> released
> > >>PowerBuilder 8  today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you
> can't
> > >>actually GET it  now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is
> > available.
> > Well its kind of nice to know in advance so you can build into your
> project
> > plans when you will migrate and who will be involved etc. How long did
> > microsoft make us to wait for win95????
> 
> So you are saying Sybase is just as bad as Microsoft...except much weaker as
> a company...just because Microsoft does it that way doesn't make it OK sor
> Sybase...in fact I don't think at this stage, Sybase can afford to be making
> silly mistakes like this.
> 
> >
> > >>Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the PowerBuilder
> > >>upgrade?!
> > Sybase are a profit organisation and if PB8 is such a good product ( which
> I
> > believe it will be ) then they deserve to reap the rewards from it. I
> would
> > imagine that if you developed a good product you would want some money for
> it?
> > I don't imagine development tools for Oracle, BEA or IBM come cheap
> either.
> 
> Yeah...I'm also a victim of this lie. They sure don't act like they want to
> make profits from me. Maybe Sybase forgot to take their marketing classes. I
> agree that PB8 looks nice...compared to the previous versions of PB. But
> nothing innovative...it's just that a bunch of stuff that was missing
> finally made it to a PB version that's all. I'm not really all that
> impressed looking at the Beta version.  Oracle, BEA, IBM? I think Sybase
> really needs to differentiate themselves from these companies since it is
> getting its butt kicked. Do something different..."Think Different",
> stealing  a phrase from Apple...sorry! Make me want to use Sybase
> Tools...give me a reason to stick with Sybase. So far, NOTHING.
> 
> >
> > >>Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one of
> > >>you.  Give it up.
> > Well I admit to being a sybase defender and attacker. I think they have a
> great
> > suite of products and they certainly have proven themselves over the
> years. EAS
> > is a superb product. On the other hand I agree that marketing and support
> need
> > some polishing, but those facts alone are not good enough reasons to give
> up on
> > solid development tools.
> 
> I agree, but from a management's perspective...I am a decision maker in a
> large financial institution and I always have to come up with some lousy
> excuse to defend Sybase. But if upper management decides that Sybase is not
> a reliable enough company, that's it, it's over...they would much rather
> invest in tools made by the big names like Oracle and MS than Sybase. So
> it's not just the tools some of us need to worry about. Not all of us are
> tech-heads who are blind to management's thoughts.
> 
> >
> > >>if you really think you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you
> must
> > >>figure it will be through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out
> how
> > they >>can leverage PB within EA Server.
> > I agree with you on this but you're just bringing up what has been
> discussed (
> > in a better tone ) on many occasions before.
> 
> Which kind of confirms the thought...move on...get out...jump ship before it
> sinks.
> 
> >
> > Best of luck
> >
> > A.
> 
> Yes, best of luck to Sybase...let's see if Sybase stocks will drop to a
> point where buying a Big Mac will be more expensive.
> 
> >
> > So_Long_Yu wrote:
> >
> > > Bleak at best, given the typical Sybase mismanagement of product
> marketing,
> > > customer service, etc.
> > >
> > > Here's the latest:
> > > Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released PowerBuilder 8
> > > today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't actually GET
> it
> > > now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is available.
> > >
> > > Now that's interesting -- the product is released, but not available.
> > > Clever.
> > >
> > > Oh, and all you EA Studio customers -- guess what else Sybase has come
> up
> > > with?  Despite the fact that PowerBuilder is a part of EA Studio, and
> > > despite the fact that you may be an EA Studio and EA Server customer,
> you
> > > are NOT entitled to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade!  Yep, you got it.  This
> is
> > > even better than it sounds, because many of you, like us, were
> originally
> > > PowerBuilder Enterprise customers, and then Sybase came along and
> > > AUTOMATICALLY upgraded you to be EA Studio customers (when PB 7 came
> out).
> > > Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the PowerBuilder
> > > upgrade?!
> > >
> > > Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one of
> > > you.  Give it up.  Spare us the typically excuses and finger pointing
> about
> > > why all of this is actually OUR fault or why this is actually a GOOD
> thing
> > > for us or why we should be the one marketing your freaking product
> because
> > > it will be more believable coming from us.  You have continually SH*T on
> > > your customers.  At this point it doesn't even matter how good or bad
> the
> > > product is.  It doesn't matter that there happen to be a few good Sybase
> > > engineers who do what they can in this and other newsgroups to help out.
> > > You are so far behind in the application server market that it just
> doesn't
> > > matter anyway.  That battle was lost a long time ago; if you really
> think
> > > you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must figure it will
> be
> > > through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how they can
> leverage
> > > PB within EA Server.  Problem is, you can't piss off those customers
> FAST
> > > enough, apparently.  So now you've come up with another w
> > > ay to do it.
> > >
> > > Folks, do yourselves a favor:
> > > http://developer.bea.com/index.jsp
> > > http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/
> >
> > --
> > __________________________
> >
> > Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
> > System Architect
> > ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
> > The University of Sydney
> > Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
> > Mobile: +61 403 341 474
> > Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711
> >
> >

-- 
__________________________

Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
System Architect
ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
The University of Sydney
Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
Mobile: +61 403 341 474
Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711
0
Adam
6/18/2001 3:49:53 PM
Adam,

Point taken.

I'm just extremely frustrated, and I hope none of my comments are taken
personally which was never my intention. I do hope that Sybase will reflect
on all this and make a positive move.

Thanks for your understanding.
Nick


"Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]" <asimmond@mail.usyd.edu.au> wrote in message
news:3B2E2321.BE9BDD9F@mail.usyd.edu.au...
> Nick
> I am not looking for an argument and this topic has been debated many
> times. I understand your frustrations and I have to deal through Sybase
> Support in Sydney which gives me a headache everytime I do.
>
> I could react to your comments and then you react some more and at the
> end of the day we get nowhere. I believe you have made your point and it
> has reached the necessary people. If nothing happens then you do have
> choices. I would rather see you stay with Sybase but no one here is
> going to continue to argue with you when you have your mind already made
> up.
>
> A.
>
> "Nick N." wrote:
> >
> > "Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]" <asimmond@mail.usyd.edu.au> wrote in
message
> > news:3B282C53.2AAE5F1A@mail.usyd.edu.au...
> > > >>Here's the latest: Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just
> > released
> > > >>PowerBuilder 8  today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you
> > can't
> > > >>actually GET it  now, but we sure did want to let you know that it
is
> > > available.
> > > Well its kind of nice to know in advance so you can build into your
> > project
> > > plans when you will migrate and who will be involved etc. How long did
> > > microsoft make us to wait for win95????
> >
> > So you are saying Sybase is just as bad as Microsoft...except much
weaker as
> > a company...just because Microsoft does it that way doesn't make it OK
sor
> > Sybase...in fact I don't think at this stage, Sybase can afford to be
making
> > silly mistakes like this.
> >
> > >
> > > >>Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the
PowerBuilder
> > > >>upgrade?!
> > > Sybase are a profit organisation and if PB8 is such a good product (
which
> > I
> > > believe it will be ) then they deserve to reap the rewards from it. I
> > would
> > > imagine that if you developed a good product you would want some money
for
> > it?
> > > I don't imagine development tools for Oracle, BEA or IBM come cheap
> > either.
> >
> > Yeah...I'm also a victim of this lie. They sure don't act like they want
to
> > make profits from me. Maybe Sybase forgot to take their marketing
classes. I
> > agree that PB8 looks nice...compared to the previous versions of PB. But
> > nothing innovative...it's just that a bunch of stuff that was missing
> > finally made it to a PB version that's all. I'm not really all that
> > impressed looking at the Beta version.  Oracle, BEA, IBM? I think Sybase
> > really needs to differentiate themselves from these companies since it
is
> > getting its butt kicked. Do something different..."Think Different",
> > stealing  a phrase from Apple...sorry! Make me want to use Sybase
> > Tools...give me a reason to stick with Sybase. So far, NOTHING.
> >
> > >
> > > >>Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one
of
> > > >>you.  Give it up.
> > > Well I admit to being a sybase defender and attacker. I think they
have a
> > great
> > > suite of products and they certainly have proven themselves over the
> > years. EAS
> > > is a superb product. On the other hand I agree that marketing and
support
> > need
> > > some polishing, but those facts alone are not good enough reasons to
give
> > up on
> > > solid development tools.
> >
> > I agree, but from a management's perspective...I am a decision maker in
a
> > large financial institution and I always have to come up with some lousy
> > excuse to defend Sybase. But if upper management decides that Sybase is
not
> > a reliable enough company, that's it, it's over...they would much rather
> > invest in tools made by the big names like Oracle and MS than Sybase. So
> > it's not just the tools some of us need to worry about. Not all of us
are
> > tech-heads who are blind to management's thoughts.
> >
> > >
> > > >>if you really think you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then
you
> > must
> > > >>figure it will be through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing
out
> > how
> > > they >>can leverage PB within EA Server.
> > > I agree with you on this but you're just bringing up what has been
> > discussed (
> > > in a better tone ) on many occasions before.
> >
> > Which kind of confirms the thought...move on...get out...jump ship
before it
> > sinks.
> >
> > >
> > > Best of luck
> > >
> > > A.
> >
> > Yes, best of luck to Sybase...let's see if Sybase stocks will drop to a
> > point where buying a Big Mac will be more expensive.
> >
> > >
> > > So_Long_Yu wrote:
> > >
> > > > Bleak at best, given the typical Sybase mismanagement of product
> > marketing,
> > > > customer service, etc.
> > > >
> > > > Here's the latest:
> > > > Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released PowerBuilder
8
> > > > today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't actually
GET
> > it
> > > > now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is available.
> > > >
> > > > Now that's interesting -- the product is released, but not
available.
> > > > Clever.
> > > >
> > > > Oh, and all you EA Studio customers -- guess what else Sybase has
come
> > up
> > > > with?  Despite the fact that PowerBuilder is a part of EA Studio,
and
> > > > despite the fact that you may be an EA Studio and EA Server
customer,
> > you
> > > > are NOT entitled to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade!  Yep, you got it.
This
> > is
> > > > even better than it sounds, because many of you, like us, were
> > originally
> > > > PowerBuilder Enterprise customers, and then Sybase came along and
> > > > AUTOMATICALLY upgraded you to be EA Studio customers (when PB 7 came
> > out).
> > > > Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the
PowerBuilder
> > > > upgrade?!
> > > >
> > > > Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one
of
> > > > you.  Give it up.  Spare us the typically excuses and finger
pointing
> > about
> > > > why all of this is actually OUR fault or why this is actually a GOOD
> > thing
> > > > for us or why we should be the one marketing your freaking product
> > because
> > > > it will be more believable coming from us.  You have continually
SH*T on
> > > > your customers.  At this point it doesn't even matter how good or
bad
> > the
> > > > product is.  It doesn't matter that there happen to be a few good
Sybase
> > > > engineers who do what they can in this and other newsgroups to help
out.
> > > > You are so far behind in the application server market that it just
> > doesn't
> > > > matter anyway.  That battle was lost a long time ago; if you really
> > think
> > > > you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must figure it
will
> > be
> > > > through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how they can
> > leverage
> > > > PB within EA Server.  Problem is, you can't piss off those customers
> > FAST
> > > > enough, apparently.  So now you've come up with another w
> > > > ay to do it.
> > > >
> > > > Folks, do yourselves a favor:
> > > > http://developer.bea.com/index.jsp
> > > > http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/
> > >
> > > --
> > > __________________________
> > >
> > > Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
> > > System Architect
> > > ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
> > > The University of Sydney
> > > Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
> > > Mobile: +61 403 341 474
> > > Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711
> > >
> > >
>
> --
> __________________________
>
> Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
> System Architect
> ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
> The University of Sydney
> Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
> Mobile: +61 403 341 474
> Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711


0
Nick
6/18/2001 4:14:24 PM
Dean,

To use PowerJ for Linux, or any other Java IDE, I need to convert, using
manual work, up to 10 big PB applications in my Softwarehouse.

I'm not discussing if it's possible or not to use Java, or another language.

I'm telling that PB is the product that I have, that I use, that I like,
that I built a framework, that I made trainings, that I recommended to my
customers and friends, that I had invested on in my corp., and so on.

PowerJ has a Win32 version, why not PB should have a Linux version?

"Dean Jones [TeamSybase]" <dean_no_spam@powerobjects.com> wrote in message
news:15$DJwA#AHA.301@forums.sybase.com...
> I just want to point out Sybase does have a solution for Linux. EAServer
and
> PowerJ. It appearent that Linux application will be written in Java.
>
> --
> Dean Jones TeamSybase
> PowerTeam, Inc.
> www.powerobjects.com
> WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
> Come visit our booth at TechWave
> EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar
>
>
> "Wendell Rios" <walmeida@tecnotrends.com.br> wrote in message
> news:fEhEiYc9AHA.194@forums.sybase.com...
> > Dave and all,
> >
> > I just want to say that I agree completeley with you, mainly in second
> > issue. By now, we are clearing starting two separate threads in future
> > desktop and server development : Windows or Linux.
> >
> > Staying with Windows, more earlier than imagined, will be needed to
> support
> > the CLR and .NET framework. I believe that soon Microsoft will do all
that
> > is possible to cut Java development in Windows machines, mainly because
> they
> > (MS), are not permitted to do nothing in this field.  I also know that
> > EAServer is a great product, very better thant MTS for example, and will
> > find it market earlier or late.
> >
> > However, I'm afraid about Powerbuilder future, that to me is the best
and
> > RAID, open, development tool for database applications , regarding this
> > applications are 2 or n-tier. Powerbuilder concepts, mainly Datawindow,
> are
> > great, and I want to stay with them, maybe forever..
> >
> > I have about 10 big applications client-server, n-tier and Internet
> written
> > in PB, EAServer or MTS that are linked to Windows environment. I'm
> terrified
> > about Linux growth, because none of them are compatible, nor the server
> > object, nor the user interface (obviously, excluding the interface of
> > Internet  apps). If we got a PB Linux version, like Borland it's doing
> with
> > Kylinx, I would relax and wait to see who will win. Maybe we should make
a
> > "chain" of signatures that comprise what developers think about a PB
Linux
> > version, with cc to sybase marketing. PB is a big product, maybe the
> better,
> > don't let it die..
> >
> > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > news:3B2A4221.2925E5BB@prescriber.com...
> > > Roy,
> > >
> > > This whole thread (at least my portion of it) is centered around two
> beefs
> > > which, in my mind, are interrelated.
> > >
> > > 1) Sybase marketing.  We all agree things need to get better.  I
agree,
> > everyone
> > > should help bang the EAServer drum.  The point I was trying to make
is,
> > it's
> > > hard to bang the drum when the maker of the drum isn't banging the
drum
> as
> > > well.  Programs are in motion, etc.  Enough said!
> > >
> > > 2) PB will not be ported to Linux.
> > >
> > > I've got a Windows PB/EAServer application that I need to move to
Linux.
> > We've
> > > established that I won't be able to do this without first rewriting my
> PB
> > > components in Java.  I don't have the time to do a transitional
> migration
> > > (convert PB components one by one to Java on my current platform -
> > although I've
> > > started mapping out this process).  Obviously, moving directly from
> > Windows to
> > > Linux without a language change would be the preferred route.  I'm a
> firm
> > > believer in the notion of "If it isn't broken, don't fix it".
> > Translation: if
> > > my application is running on Linuix using PB components, I'd be
happier
> > than a
> > > pig in @#%! to stay with PB components and EAServer.  Moving to Java
is
> > not a
> > > bad thing, it's just time consuming (coding, QA, etc.).  Yes, it would
> > certainly
> > > raise my stock as a consultant.  The point I was trying to make is
this,
> > if my
> > > application is converted to Java I now have the freedom to deploy to
> other
> > > application servers.  This is where the issue of customers asking
about
> > > WebSphere and WebLogic ties in (because they are unfamiliar with
> > EAServer).  I
> > > was just trying to make the point that the jump to another application
> > server
> > > would now be possible.  We all know, if a client is willing to buy
your
> > > application if it will run on their favorite application server, we'd
be
> > > inclined to comply.  Currently, and for obvious reasons, when asked
> about
> > those
> > > other application servers, I always talk up EAServer.
> > >
> > > I know we all live in an era of open technology and It's great.  From
a
> > purely
> > > marketing point of view, I would think Sybase would want to keep their
> PB
> > > developers (i.e. $$$$), for lack of a better word, locked in.
> > >
> > > My situation aside, Linux is a logical migration for Windows
> client/server
> > and
> > > EAServer developers.  I guess I'm the first person wishing to make
this
> > > transition.  I don't think I'll be the last...
> > >
> > > I appreciate your defense of EAServer.  It really is a great product.
> > But, on
> > > the other hand, stripping it of a truly unique feature (especially on
an
> > up and
> > > coming platform), waters it down and brings it back closer to the
pack.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > >
> > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> > >
> > > > David,
> > > >
> > > > See comments inline...
> > > >
> > > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:3B2934FA.353A127A@prescriber.com...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > <snip>
> > > > > I guess my point is, if the decision makers read only about
> WebSphere
> > and
> > > > > WebLogic, chances are they won't be buying an EAServer license
when
> > forced
> > > > to
> > > > > switch to Java.  Especially, since WebSphere offers a free
> developers
> > > > license.
> > > >
> > > > Valid point. Just FYI, decision makers are getting introduced to
> > EAServer
> > > > (and related technologies like E-Portal, Financial Fusion and
> iAnywhere
> > > > m-Business Studio) in both print and media, targeted exactly at
those
> > > > "decision makers" (read: don't look for it in PBDJ or JDJ, although
> > these
> > > > publications do have ads for developers.)
> > > >
> > > > > Sure, it expands opportunities.  Opportunities to move away from a
> > > > relatively
> > > > > unknown product to a more widely know product.  Remember who makes
> the
> > buy
> > > > > decisions.  Not always the most qualified or knowledgeable
people...
> > > >
> > > > As I mentioned, that's changing, but it won't happen overnight.
> > > >
> > > > > Agreed, but it needs to start happening soon.  I don't know the
> > > > advertising side
> > > > > of the business but, I would think buying advertising space
doesn't
> > take a
> > > > great
> > > > > deal of work, does it?
> > > >
> > > > Buying ad space is not the issue -- designing ad campaigns that hit
> the
> > nail
> > > > on the head is. That takes time...
> > > >
> > > > > I agree, adding Java is no detriment.  It would certainly provide
> more
> > > > business
> > > > > opportunities.  Sounds like you're asking me to do what the
> marketing
> > > > people
> > > > > should be doing.  I don't mind doing that.  However, it would far
> > easier
> > > > to
> > > > > mention EAServer if the CIO/CTO has read something about it ahead
of
> > time.
> > > >
> > > > I am not asking you to do anything -- I am telling you what I and
> other
> > > > TeamSybase folks are doing -- we believe in Sybase product and we
> > evangelise
> > > > them. What you're asking is for Sybase to do the leg work, so you
can
> > reap
> > > > the consulting gig benefits -- not to say that this is
inappropriate;
> on
> > the
> > > > contrary. Nevertheless, if you'll just sit there and wait for it to
> > happen,
> > > > it will, but it will take a while. If you take the active approach
and
> > > > parttake in the evalgelism effort, you'll reap the benefits much
> sooner.
> > > >
> > > > > OK, It's obvious Sybase isn't going to port PB to Linux, sigh.  So
> > let's
> > > > stop
> > > > > beating this horse to death.  I lose - uncle!
> > > >
> > > > Linux? Is that what this was all about? <g>
> > > >
> > > > I agree. But in all seriousness, many of this rant sessions (keep'em
> > > > comin' -- they keep us all sharp) boil down to one thing; do you
> believe
> > in
> > > > a particular Sybase product? If so, step up on your soap box and
speak
> > > > out -- we'll al benefit from it. Have a problem with a product? By
all
> > > > means, tell us about it in the newsgroups, but don't stop there;
Open
> a
> > case
> > > > and follow up.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > <hopethishelps />
> > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > > > http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
Wendell
6/18/2001 6:33:10 PM
Adam,

I should do it, but I think that Sybase should do it better. If I make a
survey like that, I guess that I could conduct the users to answer what I
want. I'm interested on it, but Sybase is the only that can make the choice.

Additionally, Sybase has no QA warranties of my survey, and probably will
discard or didn't consider the results.

I participated in PB Beta and recieved Web based Surveys two or three times
during beta. Sybase should create a set of questions that could express this
need, publish the survey, invite users and get the results.

Wendell.

"Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]" <asimmond@mail.usyd.edu.au> wrote in message
news:3B2AB830.72860220@mail.usyd.edu.au...
> I suggest someone starts a web poll and post the link to the PB/EAS
> newsgroups, it would have least get some numbers for Sybase to ponder
> over.
>
> A.
>
> Wendell Rios wrote:
> >
> > Bill, I agree partially with you.
> >
> > I know that Linux market is still small, but it's growing exponentially.
> >
> > So, this is a very conservative posture. In business world, the demand
is
> > sometimes created, not asked for. Also,  in this same world, run first,
99%
> > of times, means win.
> >
> > Did you thought about having a mobile phone a few years ago? Now,
everbody
> > has one..
> >
> > If Sybase gets late to see a Linux demand, should be later to do
something,
> > when most developers already are using other tools like Delphi, Java or
same
> > C# and VB.Net. A software can't be done from night to day.
> >
> > If is heavily expensive to make a product with potential market to it,
> > satisfying existing customers, renewing product life-cycle, opening new
> > markets, it's a bigger cost get back older disappointed customers ...
> >
> > But, if Powerbuilder didn't  worth what it's invested on it, and Sybase
is
> > not interested in its future, I just can say that this is a marketing
> > problem, because it's really a big tool. I use it since 4.0, and I'm
happy
> > because of high compatibility between versions, and relevant new
features
> > being added each version.
> >
> > Wendell.
> >
> > "Bill Green[TeamSybase]" <bill.green@teamsybase.com> wrote in message
> > news:3B2A4BE1.D2DEF3E1@teamsybase.com...
> > > I urge you to call your Sybase Sales Rep and tell them what you are
saying
> > here.
> > > However, you have to also understand that even if there are a 100
> > > developers/companies that want PB/Linux, that is a small percentage of
the
> > PB
> > > population, so the bottom line is to keep asking. If the demand
increases,
> > then
> > > perhaps something would be done.
> > >
> > > regards,
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > Wendell Rios wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dave and all,
> > > >
> > > > I just want to say that I agree completeley with you, mainly in
second
> > > > issue. By now, we are clearing starting two separate threads in
future
> > > > desktop and server development : Windows or Linux.
> > > >
> > > > Staying with Windows, more earlier than imagined, will be needed to
> > support
> > > > the CLR and .NET framework. I believe that soon Microsoft will do
all
> > that
> > > > is possible to cut Java development in Windows machines, mainly
because
> > they
> > > > (MS), are not permitted to do nothing in this field.  I also know
that
> > > > EAServer is a great product, very better thant MTS for example, and
will
> > > > find it market earlier or late.
> > > >
> > > > However, I'm afraid about Powerbuilder future, that to me is the
best
> > and
> > > > RAID, open, development tool for database applications , regarding
this
> > > > applications are 2 or n-tier. Powerbuilder concepts, mainly
Datawindow,
> > are
> > > > great, and I want to stay with them, maybe forever..
> > > >
> > > > I have about 10 big applications client-server, n-tier and Internet
> > written
> > > > in PB, EAServer or MTS that are linked to Windows environment. I'm
> > terrified
> > > > about Linux growth, because none of them are compatible, nor the
server
> > > > object, nor the user interface (obviously, excluding the interface
of
> > > > Internet  apps). If we got a PB Linux version, like Borland it's
doing
> > with
> > > > Kylinx, I would relax and wait to see who will win. Maybe we should
make
> > a
> > > > "chain" of signatures that comprise what developers think about a PB
> > Linux
> > > > version, with cc to sybase marketing. PB is a big product, maybe the
> > better,
> > > > don't let it die..
> > > >
> > > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:3B2A4221.2925E5BB@prescriber.com...
> > > > > Roy,
> > > > >
> > > > > This whole thread (at least my portion of it) is centered around
two
> > beefs
> > > > > which, in my mind, are interrelated.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) Sybase marketing.  We all agree things need to get better.  I
> > agree,
> > > > everyone
> > > > > should help bang the EAServer drum.  The point I was trying to
make
> > is,
> > > > it's
> > > > > hard to bang the drum when the maker of the drum isn't banging the
> > drum as
> > > > > well.  Programs are in motion, etc.  Enough said!
> > > > >
> > > > > 2) PB will not be ported to Linux.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've got a Windows PB/EAServer application that I need to move to
> > Linux.
> > > > We've
> > > > > established that I won't be able to do this without first
rewriting my
> > PB
> > > > > components in Java.  I don't have the time to do a transitional
> > migration
> > > > > (convert PB components one by one to Java on my current platform -
> > > > although I've
> > > > > started mapping out this process).  Obviously, moving directly
from
> > > > Windows to
> > > > > Linux without a language change would be the preferred route.  I'm
a
> > firm
> > > > > believer in the notion of "If it isn't broken, don't fix it".
> > > > Translation: if
> > > > > my application is running on Linuix using PB components, I'd be
> > happier
> > > > than a
> > > > > pig in @#%! to stay with PB components and EAServer.  Moving to
Java
> > is
> > > > not a
> > > > > bad thing, it's just time consuming (coding, QA, etc.).  Yes, it
would
> > > > certainly
> > > > > raise my stock as a consultant.  The point I was trying to make is
> > this,
> > > > if my
> > > > > application is converted to Java I now have the freedom to deploy
to
> > other
> > > > > application servers.  This is where the issue of customers asking
> > about
> > > > > WebSphere and WebLogic ties in (because they are unfamiliar with
> > > > EAServer).  I
> > > > > was just trying to make the point that the jump to another
application
> > > > server
> > > > > would now be possible.  We all know, if a client is willing to buy
> > your
> > > > > application if it will run on their favorite application server,
we'd
> > be
> > > > > inclined to comply.  Currently, and for obvious reasons, when
asked
> > about
> > > > those
> > > > > other application servers, I always talk up EAServer.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know we all live in an era of open technology and It's great.
From
> > a
> > > > purely
> > > > > marketing point of view, I would think Sybase would want to keep
their
> > PB
> > > > > developers (i.e. $$$$), for lack of a better word, locked in.
> > > > >
> > > > > My situation aside, Linux is a logical migration for Windows
> > client/server
> > > > and
> > > > > EAServer developers.  I guess I'm the first person wishing to make
> > this
> > > > > transition.  I don't think I'll be the last...
> > > > >
> > > > > I appreciate your defense of EAServer.  It really is a great
product.
> > > > But, on
> > > > > the other hand, stripping it of a truly unique feature (especially
on
> > an
> > > > up and
> > > > > coming platform), waters it down and brings it back closer to the
> > pack.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dave
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > David,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > See comments inline...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:3B2934FA.353A127A@prescriber.com...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > <snip>
> > > > > > > I guess my point is, if the decision makers read only about
> > WebSphere
> > > > and
> > > > > > > WebLogic, chances are they won't be buying an EAServer license
> > when
> > > > forced
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > switch to Java.  Especially, since WebSphere offers a free
> > developers
> > > > > > license.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Valid point. Just FYI, decision makers are getting introduced to
> > > > EAServer
> > > > > > (and related technologies like E-Portal, Financial Fusion and
> > iAnywhere
> > > > > > m-Business Studio) in both print and media, targeted exactly at
> > those
> > > > > > "decision makers" (read: don't look for it in PBDJ or JDJ,
although
> > > > these
> > > > > > publications do have ads for developers.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sure, it expands opportunities.  Opportunities to move away
from a
> > > > > > relatively
> > > > > > > unknown product to a more widely know product.  Remember who
makes
> > the
> > > > buy
> > > > > > > decisions.  Not always the most qualified or knowledgeable
> > people...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As I mentioned, that's changing, but it won't happen overnight.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Agreed, but it needs to start happening soon.  I don't know
the
> > > > > > advertising side
> > > > > > > of the business but, I would think buying advertising space
> > doesn't
> > > > take a
> > > > > > great
> > > > > > > deal of work, does it?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Buying ad space is not the issue -- designing ad campaigns that
hit
> > the
> > > > nail
> > > > > > on the head is. That takes time...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I agree, adding Java is no detriment.  It would certainly
provide
> > more
> > > > > > business
> > > > > > > opportunities.  Sounds like you're asking me to do what the
> > marketing
> > > > > > people
> > > > > > > should be doing.  I don't mind doing that.  However, it would
far
> > > > easier
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > mention EAServer if the CIO/CTO has read something about it
ahead
> > of
> > > > time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am not asking you to do anything -- I am telling you what I
and
> > other
> > > > > > TeamSybase folks are doing -- we believe in Sybase product and
we
> > > > evangelise
> > > > > > them. What you're asking is for Sybase to do the leg work, so
you
> > can
> > > > reap
> > > > > > the consulting gig benefits -- not to say that this is
> > inappropriate; on
> > > > the
> > > > > > contrary. Nevertheless, if you'll just sit there and wait for it
to
> > > > happen,
> > > > > > it will, but it will take a while. If you take the active
approach
> > and
> > > > > > parttake in the evalgelism effort, you'll reap the benefits much
> > sooner.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > OK, It's obvious Sybase isn't going to port PB to Linux, sigh.
So
> > > > let's
> > > > > > stop
> > > > > > > beating this horse to death.  I lose - uncle!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Linux? Is that what this was all about? <g>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I agree. But in all seriousness, many of this rant sessions
(keep'em
> > > > > > comin' -- they keep us all sharp) boil down to one thing; do you
> > believe
> > > > in
> > > > > > a particular Sybase product? If so, step up on your soap box and
> > speak
> > > > > > out -- we'll al benefit from it. Have a problem with a product?
By
> > all
> > > > > > means, tell us about it in the newsgroups, but don't stop there;
> > Open a
> > > > case
> > > > > > and follow up.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > <hopethishelps />
> > > > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > > > > > http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
> > > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Bill Green[TeamSybase]
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > > Vote Now: Readers Choice Awards
> > > http://www.sys-con.com/java/readerschoice2001/
> > >
> > >
> > > Good Links to know, good places to go:
> > >
> > > Developer stuff on my.sybase.com - Sign up, visit often
> > > Find things like:
> > > -- EAServer 3.6.1 maintenance release is available
> > > -- PowerBuilder 7.03 maintenance release available
> > > -- Components, White papers, articles and more
> > > -- Web DataWindow Article Series (Author: Larry Cermak)
> > > -- Jaguar Agent for Web Servers (HTTP access to PB components)
> > >
> > > PFC Guide - http://www.pfcguide.com
> > >
> > > Power3 - Custom Training  - http://www.power3.com
> > > Bill Green @ Power3 - wgreen@power3.com
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
>
> --
> __________________________
>
> Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
> System Architect
> ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
> The University of Sydney
> Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
> Mobile: +61 403 341 474
> Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711


0
Wendell
6/18/2001 6:58:19 PM
My only answer is there are many Windows application that will never get
ported to Linux. I would run your PB code in EAServer on Windows, start
developing new components to run on EAServer on Linux, as your old
application become obsolete you can get off of Windows and rely on Linux.

If I develop with VB I would use Windows/MTS
If I develop with Java I would use Unix/Linux/EAServer
If I develop with PB I would use Windows/EAServer

Have you looked at utilities like VMWare?
--
Dean Jones TeamSybase
PowerTeam, Inc.
www.powerobjects.com
WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
Come visit our booth at TechWave
EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar


"Wendell Rios" <walmeida@tecnotrends.com.br> wrote in message
news:Y2zyNjC#AHA.96@forums.sybase.com...
> Dean,
>
> To use PowerJ for Linux, or any other Java IDE, I need to convert, using
> manual work, up to 10 big PB applications in my Softwarehouse.
>
> I'm not discussing if it's possible or not to use Java, or another
language.
>
> I'm telling that PB is the product that I have, that I use, that I like,
> that I built a framework, that I made trainings, that I recommended to my
> customers and friends, that I had invested on in my corp., and so on.
>
> PowerJ has a Win32 version, why not PB should have a Linux version?
>
> "Dean Jones [TeamSybase]" <dean_no_spam@powerobjects.com> wrote in message
> news:15$DJwA#AHA.301@forums.sybase.com...
> > I just want to point out Sybase does have a solution for Linux. EAServer
> and
> > PowerJ. It appearent that Linux application will be written in Java.
> >
> > --
> > Dean Jones TeamSybase
> > PowerTeam, Inc.
> > www.powerobjects.com
> > WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
> > Come visit our booth at TechWave
> > EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar
> >
> >
> > "Wendell Rios" <walmeida@tecnotrends.com.br> wrote in message
> > news:fEhEiYc9AHA.194@forums.sybase.com...
> > > Dave and all,
> > >
> > > I just want to say that I agree completeley with you, mainly in second
> > > issue. By now, we are clearing starting two separate threads in future
> > > desktop and server development : Windows or Linux.
> > >
> > > Staying with Windows, more earlier than imagined, will be needed to
> > support
> > > the CLR and .NET framework. I believe that soon Microsoft will do all
> that
> > > is possible to cut Java development in Windows machines, mainly
because
> > they
> > > (MS), are not permitted to do nothing in this field.  I also know that
> > > EAServer is a great product, very better thant MTS for example, and
will
> > > find it market earlier or late.
> > >
> > > However, I'm afraid about Powerbuilder future, that to me is the best
> and
> > > RAID, open, development tool for database applications , regarding
this
> > > applications are 2 or n-tier. Powerbuilder concepts, mainly
Datawindow,
> > are
> > > great, and I want to stay with them, maybe forever..
> > >
> > > I have about 10 big applications client-server, n-tier and Internet
> > written
> > > in PB, EAServer or MTS that are linked to Windows environment. I'm
> > terrified
> > > about Linux growth, because none of them are compatible, nor the
server
> > > object, nor the user interface (obviously, excluding the interface of
> > > Internet  apps). If we got a PB Linux version, like Borland it's doing
> > with
> > > Kylinx, I would relax and wait to see who will win. Maybe we should
make
> a
> > > "chain" of signatures that comprise what developers think about a PB
> Linux
> > > version, with cc to sybase marketing. PB is a big product, maybe the
> > better,
> > > don't let it die..
> > >
> > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3B2A4221.2925E5BB@prescriber.com...
> > > > Roy,
> > > >
> > > > This whole thread (at least my portion of it) is centered around two
> > beefs
> > > > which, in my mind, are interrelated.
> > > >
> > > > 1) Sybase marketing.  We all agree things need to get better.  I
> agree,
> > > everyone
> > > > should help bang the EAServer drum.  The point I was trying to make
> is,
> > > it's
> > > > hard to bang the drum when the maker of the drum isn't banging the
> drum
> > as
> > > > well.  Programs are in motion, etc.  Enough said!
> > > >
> > > > 2) PB will not be ported to Linux.
> > > >
> > > > I've got a Windows PB/EAServer application that I need to move to
> Linux.
> > > We've
> > > > established that I won't be able to do this without first rewriting
my
> > PB
> > > > components in Java.  I don't have the time to do a transitional
> > migration
> > > > (convert PB components one by one to Java on my current platform -
> > > although I've
> > > > started mapping out this process).  Obviously, moving directly from
> > > Windows to
> > > > Linux without a language change would be the preferred route.  I'm a
> > firm
> > > > believer in the notion of "If it isn't broken, don't fix it".
> > > Translation: if
> > > > my application is running on Linuix using PB components, I'd be
> happier
> > > than a
> > > > pig in @#%! to stay with PB components and EAServer.  Moving to Java
> is
> > > not a
> > > > bad thing, it's just time consuming (coding, QA, etc.).  Yes, it
would
> > > certainly
> > > > raise my stock as a consultant.  The point I was trying to make is
> this,
> > > if my
> > > > application is converted to Java I now have the freedom to deploy to
> > other
> > > > application servers.  This is where the issue of customers asking
> about
> > > > WebSphere and WebLogic ties in (because they are unfamiliar with
> > > EAServer).  I
> > > > was just trying to make the point that the jump to another
application
> > > server
> > > > would now be possible.  We all know, if a client is willing to buy
> your
> > > > application if it will run on their favorite application server,
we'd
> be
> > > > inclined to comply.  Currently, and for obvious reasons, when asked
> > about
> > > those
> > > > other application servers, I always talk up EAServer.
> > > >
> > > > I know we all live in an era of open technology and It's great.
From
> a
> > > purely
> > > > marketing point of view, I would think Sybase would want to keep
their
> > PB
> > > > developers (i.e. $$$$), for lack of a better word, locked in.
> > > >
> > > > My situation aside, Linux is a logical migration for Windows
> > client/server
> > > and
> > > > EAServer developers.  I guess I'm the first person wishing to make
> this
> > > > transition.  I don't think I'll be the last...
> > > >
> > > > I appreciate your defense of EAServer.  It really is a great
product.
> > > But, on
> > > > the other hand, stripping it of a truly unique feature (especially
on
> an
> > > up and
> > > > coming platform), waters it down and brings it back closer to the
> pack.
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > David,
> > > > >
> > > > > See comments inline...
> > > > >
> > > > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3B2934FA.353A127A@prescriber.com...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > <snip>
> > > > > > I guess my point is, if the decision makers read only about
> > WebSphere
> > > and
> > > > > > WebLogic, chances are they won't be buying an EAServer license
> when
> > > forced
> > > > > to
> > > > > > switch to Java.  Especially, since WebSphere offers a free
> > developers
> > > > > license.
> > > > >
> > > > > Valid point. Just FYI, decision makers are getting introduced to
> > > EAServer
> > > > > (and related technologies like E-Portal, Financial Fusion and
> > iAnywhere
> > > > > m-Business Studio) in both print and media, targeted exactly at
> those
> > > > > "decision makers" (read: don't look for it in PBDJ or JDJ,
although
> > > these
> > > > > publications do have ads for developers.)
> > > > >
> > > > > > Sure, it expands opportunities.  Opportunities to move away from
a
> > > > > relatively
> > > > > > unknown product to a more widely know product.  Remember who
makes
> > the
> > > buy
> > > > > > decisions.  Not always the most qualified or knowledgeable
> people...
> > > > >
> > > > > As I mentioned, that's changing, but it won't happen overnight.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Agreed, but it needs to start happening soon.  I don't know the
> > > > > advertising side
> > > > > > of the business but, I would think buying advertising space
> doesn't
> > > take a
> > > > > great
> > > > > > deal of work, does it?
> > > > >
> > > > > Buying ad space is not the issue -- designing ad campaigns that
hit
> > the
> > > nail
> > > > > on the head is. That takes time...
> > > > >
> > > > > > I agree, adding Java is no detriment.  It would certainly
provide
> > more
> > > > > business
> > > > > > opportunities.  Sounds like you're asking me to do what the
> > marketing
> > > > > people
> > > > > > should be doing.  I don't mind doing that.  However, it would
far
> > > easier
> > > > > to
> > > > > > mention EAServer if the CIO/CTO has read something about it
ahead
> of
> > > time.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am not asking you to do anything -- I am telling you what I and
> > other
> > > > > TeamSybase folks are doing -- we believe in Sybase product and we
> > > evangelise
> > > > > them. What you're asking is for Sybase to do the leg work, so you
> can
> > > reap
> > > > > the consulting gig benefits -- not to say that this is
> inappropriate;
> > on
> > > the
> > > > > contrary. Nevertheless, if you'll just sit there and wait for it
to
> > > happen,
> > > > > it will, but it will take a while. If you take the active approach
> and
> > > > > parttake in the evalgelism effort, you'll reap the benefits much
> > sooner.
> > > > >
> > > > > > OK, It's obvious Sybase isn't going to port PB to Linux, sigh.
So
> > > let's
> > > > > stop
> > > > > > beating this horse to death.  I lose - uncle!
> > > > >
> > > > > Linux? Is that what this was all about? <g>
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree. But in all seriousness, many of this rant sessions
(keep'em
> > > > > comin' -- they keep us all sharp) boil down to one thing; do you
> > believe
> > > in
> > > > > a particular Sybase product? If so, step up on your soap box and
> speak
> > > > > out -- we'll al benefit from it. Have a problem with a product? By
> all
> > > > > means, tell us about it in the newsgroups, but don't stop there;
> Open
> > a
> > > case
> > > > > and follow up.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > <hopethishelps />
> > > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > > > > http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
Dean
6/18/2001 7:35:58 PM
Nick -

Sybase does want you as a customer. We also want you to be successful. Sorry
for the confusion on getting your PB8 upgrade. can we help you be successful
with the tool?

--
Dean Jones TeamSybase
PowerTeam, Inc.
www.powerobjects.com
WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
Come visit our booth at TechWave
EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar


"Nick N." <nnishizaka@tokaiusa.com> wrote in message
news:b$gtHBB#AHA.85@forums.sybase.com...
>
>
> "Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]" <asimmond@mail.usyd.edu.au> wrote in message
> news:3B282C53.2AAE5F1A@mail.usyd.edu.au...
> > >>Here's the latest: Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just
> released
> > >>PowerBuilder 8  today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you
> can't
> > >>actually GET it  now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is
> > available.
> > Well its kind of nice to know in advance so you can build into your
> project
> > plans when you will migrate and who will be involved etc. How long did
> > microsoft make us to wait for win95????
>
> So you are saying Sybase is just as bad as Microsoft...except much weaker
as
> a company...just because Microsoft does it that way doesn't make it OK sor
> Sybase...in fact I don't think at this stage, Sybase can afford to be
making
> silly mistakes like this.
>
> >
> > >>Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the PowerBuilder
> > >>upgrade?!
> > Sybase are a profit organisation and if PB8 is such a good product (
which
> I
> > believe it will be ) then they deserve to reap the rewards from it. I
> would
> > imagine that if you developed a good product you would want some money
for
> it?
> > I don't imagine development tools for Oracle, BEA or IBM come cheap
> either.
>
> Yeah...I'm also a victim of this lie. They sure don't act like they want
to
> make profits from me. Maybe Sybase forgot to take their marketing classes.
I
> agree that PB8 looks nice...compared to the previous versions of PB. But
> nothing innovative...it's just that a bunch of stuff that was missing
> finally made it to a PB version that's all. I'm not really all that
> impressed looking at the Beta version.  Oracle, BEA, IBM? I think Sybase
> really needs to differentiate themselves from these companies since it is
> getting its butt kicked. Do something different..."Think Different",
> stealing  a phrase from Apple...sorry! Make me want to use Sybase
> Tools...give me a reason to stick with Sybase. So far, NOTHING.
>
> >
> > >>Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one
of
> > >>you.  Give it up.
> > Well I admit to being a sybase defender and attacker. I think they have
a
> great
> > suite of products and they certainly have proven themselves over the
> years. EAS
> > is a superb product. On the other hand I agree that marketing and
support
> need
> > some polishing, but those facts alone are not good enough reasons to
give
> up on
> > solid development tools.
>
> I agree, but from a management's perspective...I am a decision maker in a
> large financial institution and I always have to come up with some lousy
> excuse to defend Sybase. But if upper management decides that Sybase is
not
> a reliable enough company, that's it, it's over...they would much rather
> invest in tools made by the big names like Oracle and MS than Sybase. So
> it's not just the tools some of us need to worry about. Not all of us are
> tech-heads who are blind to management's thoughts.
>
> >
> > >>if you really think you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then
you
> must
> > >>figure it will be through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing
out
> how
> > they >>can leverage PB within EA Server.
> > I agree with you on this but you're just bringing up what has been
> discussed (
> > in a better tone ) on many occasions before.
>
> Which kind of confirms the thought...move on...get out...jump ship before
it
> sinks.
>
> >
> > Best of luck
> >
> > A.
>
> Yes, best of luck to Sybase...let's see if Sybase stocks will drop to a
> point where buying a Big Mac will be more expensive.
>
> >
> > So_Long_Yu wrote:
> >
> > > Bleak at best, given the typical Sybase mismanagement of product
> marketing,
> > > customer service, etc.
> > >
> > > Here's the latest:
> > > Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released PowerBuilder 8
> > > today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't actually GET
> it
> > > now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is available.
> > >
> > > Now that's interesting -- the product is released, but not available.
> > > Clever.
> > >
> > > Oh, and all you EA Studio customers -- guess what else Sybase has come
> up
> > > with?  Despite the fact that PowerBuilder is a part of EA Studio, and
> > > despite the fact that you may be an EA Studio and EA Server customer,
> you
> > > are NOT entitled to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade!  Yep, you got it.
This
> is
> > > even better than it sounds, because many of you, like us, were
> originally
> > > PowerBuilder Enterprise customers, and then Sybase came along and
> > > AUTOMATICALLY upgraded you to be EA Studio customers (when PB 7 came
> out).
> > > Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the PowerBuilder
> > > upgrade?!
> > >
> > > Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one
of
> > > you.  Give it up.  Spare us the typically excuses and finger pointing
> about
> > > why all of this is actually OUR fault or why this is actually a GOOD
> thing
> > > for us or why we should be the one marketing your freaking product
> because
> > > it will be more believable coming from us.  You have continually SH*T
on
> > > your customers.  At this point it doesn't even matter how good or bad
> the
> > > product is.  It doesn't matter that there happen to be a few good
Sybase
> > > engineers who do what they can in this and other newsgroups to help
out.
> > > You are so far behind in the application server market that it just
> doesn't
> > > matter anyway.  That battle was lost a long time ago; if you really
> think
> > > you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must figure it
will
> be
> > > through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how they can
> leverage
> > > PB within EA Server.  Problem is, you can't piss off those customers
> FAST
> > > enough, apparently.  So now you've come up with another w
> > > ay to do it.
> > >
> > > Folks, do yourselves a favor:
> > > http://developer.bea.com/index.jsp
> > > http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/
> >
> > --
> > __________________________
> >
> > Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
> > System Architect
> > ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
> > The University of Sydney
> > Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
> > Mobile: +61 403 341 474
> > Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711
> >
> >
>
>


0
Dean
6/18/2001 7:39:50 PM
No, what's?

"Dean Jones [TeamSybase]" <dean_no_spam@powerobjects.com> wrote in message
news:7RmRhFD#AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> My only answer is there are many Windows application that will never get
> ported to Linux. I would run your PB code in EAServer on Windows, start
> developing new components to run on EAServer on Linux, as your old
> application become obsolete you can get off of Windows and rely on Linux.
>
> If I develop with VB I would use Windows/MTS
> If I develop with Java I would use Unix/Linux/EAServer
> If I develop with PB I would use Windows/EAServer
>
> Have you looked at utilities like VMWare?
> --
> Dean Jones TeamSybase
> PowerTeam, Inc.
> www.powerobjects.com
> WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
> Come visit our booth at TechWave
> EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar
>
>
> "Wendell Rios" <walmeida@tecnotrends.com.br> wrote in message
> news:Y2zyNjC#AHA.96@forums.sybase.com...
> > Dean,
> >
> > To use PowerJ for Linux, or any other Java IDE, I need to convert, using
> > manual work, up to 10 big PB applications in my Softwarehouse.
> >
> > I'm not discussing if it's possible or not to use Java, or another
> language.
> >
> > I'm telling that PB is the product that I have, that I use, that I like,
> > that I built a framework, that I made trainings, that I recommended to
my
> > customers and friends, that I had invested on in my corp., and so on.
> >
> > PowerJ has a Win32 version, why not PB should have a Linux version?
> >
> > "Dean Jones [TeamSybase]" <dean_no_spam@powerobjects.com> wrote in
message
> > news:15$DJwA#AHA.301@forums.sybase.com...
> > > I just want to point out Sybase does have a solution for Linux.
EAServer
> > and
> > > PowerJ. It appearent that Linux application will be written in Java.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dean Jones TeamSybase
> > > PowerTeam, Inc.
> > > www.powerobjects.com
> > > WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
> > > Come visit our booth at TechWave
> > > EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar
> > >
> > >
> > > "Wendell Rios" <walmeida@tecnotrends.com.br> wrote in message
> > > news:fEhEiYc9AHA.194@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > Dave and all,
> > > >
> > > > I just want to say that I agree completeley with you, mainly in
second
> > > > issue. By now, we are clearing starting two separate threads in
future
> > > > desktop and server development : Windows or Linux.
> > > >
> > > > Staying with Windows, more earlier than imagined, will be needed to
> > > support
> > > > the CLR and .NET framework. I believe that soon Microsoft will do
all
> > that
> > > > is possible to cut Java development in Windows machines, mainly
> because
> > > they
> > > > (MS), are not permitted to do nothing in this field.  I also know
that
> > > > EAServer is a great product, very better thant MTS for example, and
> will
> > > > find it market earlier or late.
> > > >
> > > > However, I'm afraid about Powerbuilder future, that to me is the
best
> > and
> > > > RAID, open, development tool for database applications , regarding
> this
> > > > applications are 2 or n-tier. Powerbuilder concepts, mainly
> Datawindow,
> > > are
> > > > great, and I want to stay with them, maybe forever..
> > > >
> > > > I have about 10 big applications client-server, n-tier and Internet
> > > written
> > > > in PB, EAServer or MTS that are linked to Windows environment. I'm
> > > terrified
> > > > about Linux growth, because none of them are compatible, nor the
> server
> > > > object, nor the user interface (obviously, excluding the interface
of
> > > > Internet  apps). If we got a PB Linux version, like Borland it's
doing
> > > with
> > > > Kylinx, I would relax and wait to see who will win. Maybe we should
> make
> > a
> > > > "chain" of signatures that comprise what developers think about a PB
> > Linux
> > > > version, with cc to sybase marketing. PB is a big product, maybe the
> > > better,
> > > > don't let it die..
> > > >
> > > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:3B2A4221.2925E5BB@prescriber.com...
> > > > > Roy,
> > > > >
> > > > > This whole thread (at least my portion of it) is centered around
two
> > > beefs
> > > > > which, in my mind, are interrelated.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) Sybase marketing.  We all agree things need to get better.  I
> > agree,
> > > > everyone
> > > > > should help bang the EAServer drum.  The point I was trying to
make
> > is,
> > > > it's
> > > > > hard to bang the drum when the maker of the drum isn't banging the
> > drum
> > > as
> > > > > well.  Programs are in motion, etc.  Enough said!
> > > > >
> > > > > 2) PB will not be ported to Linux.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've got a Windows PB/EAServer application that I need to move to
> > Linux.
> > > > We've
> > > > > established that I won't be able to do this without first
rewriting
> my
> > > PB
> > > > > components in Java.  I don't have the time to do a transitional
> > > migration
> > > > > (convert PB components one by one to Java on my current platform -
> > > > although I've
> > > > > started mapping out this process).  Obviously, moving directly
from
> > > > Windows to
> > > > > Linux without a language change would be the preferred route.  I'm
a
> > > firm
> > > > > believer in the notion of "If it isn't broken, don't fix it".
> > > > Translation: if
> > > > > my application is running on Linuix using PB components, I'd be
> > happier
> > > > than a
> > > > > pig in @#%! to stay with PB components and EAServer.  Moving to
Java
> > is
> > > > not a
> > > > > bad thing, it's just time consuming (coding, QA, etc.).  Yes, it
> would
> > > > certainly
> > > > > raise my stock as a consultant.  The point I was trying to make is
> > this,
> > > > if my
> > > > > application is converted to Java I now have the freedom to deploy
to
> > > other
> > > > > application servers.  This is where the issue of customers asking
> > about
> > > > > WebSphere and WebLogic ties in (because they are unfamiliar with
> > > > EAServer).  I
> > > > > was just trying to make the point that the jump to another
> application
> > > > server
> > > > > would now be possible.  We all know, if a client is willing to buy
> > your
> > > > > application if it will run on their favorite application server,
> we'd
> > be
> > > > > inclined to comply.  Currently, and for obvious reasons, when
asked
> > > about
> > > > those
> > > > > other application servers, I always talk up EAServer.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know we all live in an era of open technology and It's great.
> From
> > a
> > > > purely
> > > > > marketing point of view, I would think Sybase would want to keep
> their
> > > PB
> > > > > developers (i.e. $$$$), for lack of a better word, locked in.
> > > > >
> > > > > My situation aside, Linux is a logical migration for Windows
> > > client/server
> > > > and
> > > > > EAServer developers.  I guess I'm the first person wishing to make
> > this
> > > > > transition.  I don't think I'll be the last...
> > > > >
> > > > > I appreciate your defense of EAServer.  It really is a great
> product.
> > > > But, on
> > > > > the other hand, stripping it of a truly unique feature (especially
> on
> > an
> > > > up and
> > > > > coming platform), waters it down and brings it back closer to the
> > pack.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dave
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > David,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > See comments inline...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:3B2934FA.353A127A@prescriber.com...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > <snip>
> > > > > > > I guess my point is, if the decision makers read only about
> > > WebSphere
> > > > and
> > > > > > > WebLogic, chances are they won't be buying an EAServer license
> > when
> > > > forced
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > switch to Java.  Especially, since WebSphere offers a free
> > > developers
> > > > > > license.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Valid point. Just FYI, decision makers are getting introduced to
> > > > EAServer
> > > > > > (and related technologies like E-Portal, Financial Fusion and
> > > iAnywhere
> > > > > > m-Business Studio) in both print and media, targeted exactly at
> > those
> > > > > > "decision makers" (read: don't look for it in PBDJ or JDJ,
> although
> > > > these
> > > > > > publications do have ads for developers.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sure, it expands opportunities.  Opportunities to move away
from
> a
> > > > > > relatively
> > > > > > > unknown product to a more widely know product.  Remember who
> makes
> > > the
> > > > buy
> > > > > > > decisions.  Not always the most qualified or knowledgeable
> > people...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As I mentioned, that's changing, but it won't happen overnight.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Agreed, but it needs to start happening soon.  I don't know
the
> > > > > > advertising side
> > > > > > > of the business but, I would think buying advertising space
> > doesn't
> > > > take a
> > > > > > great
> > > > > > > deal of work, does it?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Buying ad space is not the issue -- designing ad campaigns that
> hit
> > > the
> > > > nail
> > > > > > on the head is. That takes time...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I agree, adding Java is no detriment.  It would certainly
> provide
> > > more
> > > > > > business
> > > > > > > opportunities.  Sounds like you're asking me to do what the
> > > marketing
> > > > > > people
> > > > > > > should be doing.  I don't mind doing that.  However, it would
> far
> > > > easier
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > mention EAServer if the CIO/CTO has read something about it
> ahead
> > of
> > > > time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am not asking you to do anything -- I am telling you what I
and
> > > other
> > > > > > TeamSybase folks are doing -- we believe in Sybase product and
we
> > > > evangelise
> > > > > > them. What you're asking is for Sybase to do the leg work, so
you
> > can
> > > > reap
> > > > > > the consulting gig benefits -- not to say that this is
> > inappropriate;
> > > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > contrary. Nevertheless, if you'll just sit there and wait for it
> to
> > > > happen,
> > > > > > it will, but it will take a while. If you take the active
approach
> > and
> > > > > > parttake in the evalgelism effort, you'll reap the benefits much
> > > sooner.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > OK, It's obvious Sybase isn't going to port PB to Linux, sigh.
> So
> > > > let's
> > > > > > stop
> > > > > > > beating this horse to death.  I lose - uncle!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Linux? Is that what this was all about? <g>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I agree. But in all seriousness, many of this rant sessions
> (keep'em
> > > > > > comin' -- they keep us all sharp) boil down to one thing; do you
> > > believe
> > > > in
> > > > > > a particular Sybase product? If so, step up on your soap box and
> > speak
> > > > > > out -- we'll al benefit from it. Have a problem with a product?
By
> > all
> > > > > > means, tell us about it in the newsgroups, but don't stop there;
> > Open
> > > a
> > > > case
> > > > > > and follow up.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > <hopethishelps />
> > > > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > > > > > http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
Wendell
6/18/2001 7:43:09 PM
http://www.vmware.com

--
<hopethishelps />
Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231

"Wendell Rios" <walmeida@tecnotrends.com.br> wrote in message
news:94s#QKD#AHA.85@forums.sybase.com...
> No, what's?
>
> "Dean Jones [TeamSybase]" <dean_no_spam@powerobjects.com> wrote in message
> news:7RmRhFD#AHA.261@forums.sybase.com...
> > My only answer is there are many Windows application that will never get
> > ported to Linux. I would run your PB code in EAServer on Windows, start
> > developing new components to run on EAServer on Linux, as your old
> > application become obsolete you can get off of Windows and rely on
Linux.
> >
> > If I develop with VB I would use Windows/MTS
> > If I develop with Java I would use Unix/Linux/EAServer
> > If I develop with PB I would use Windows/EAServer
> >
> > Have you looked at utilities like VMWare?
> > --
> > Dean Jones TeamSybase
> > PowerTeam, Inc.
> > www.powerobjects.com
> > WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
> > Come visit our booth at TechWave
> > EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar
> >
> >
> > "Wendell Rios" <walmeida@tecnotrends.com.br> wrote in message
> > news:Y2zyNjC#AHA.96@forums.sybase.com...
> > > Dean,
> > >
> > > To use PowerJ for Linux, or any other Java IDE, I need to convert,
using
> > > manual work, up to 10 big PB applications in my Softwarehouse.
> > >
> > > I'm not discussing if it's possible or not to use Java, or another
> > language.
> > >
> > > I'm telling that PB is the product that I have, that I use, that I
like,
> > > that I built a framework, that I made trainings, that I recommended to
> my
> > > customers and friends, that I had invested on in my corp., and so on.
> > >
> > > PowerJ has a Win32 version, why not PB should have a Linux version?
> > >
> > > "Dean Jones [TeamSybase]" <dean_no_spam@powerobjects.com> wrote in
> message
> > > news:15$DJwA#AHA.301@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > I just want to point out Sybase does have a solution for Linux.
> EAServer
> > > and
> > > > PowerJ. It appearent that Linux application will be written in Java.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Dean Jones TeamSybase
> > > > PowerTeam, Inc.
> > > > www.powerobjects.com
> > > > WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
> > > > Come visit our booth at TechWave
> > > > EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Wendell Rios" <walmeida@tecnotrends.com.br> wrote in message
> > > > news:fEhEiYc9AHA.194@forums.sybase.com...
> > > > > Dave and all,
> > > > >
> > > > > I just want to say that I agree completeley with you, mainly in
> second
> > > > > issue. By now, we are clearing starting two separate threads in
> future
> > > > > desktop and server development : Windows or Linux.
> > > > >
> > > > > Staying with Windows, more earlier than imagined, will be needed
to
> > > > support
> > > > > the CLR and .NET framework. I believe that soon Microsoft will do
> all
> > > that
> > > > > is possible to cut Java development in Windows machines, mainly
> > because
> > > > they
> > > > > (MS), are not permitted to do nothing in this field.  I also know
> that
> > > > > EAServer is a great product, very better thant MTS for example,
and
> > will
> > > > > find it market earlier or late.
> > > > >
> > > > > However, I'm afraid about Powerbuilder future, that to me is the
> best
> > > and
> > > > > RAID, open, development tool for database applications , regarding
> > this
> > > > > applications are 2 or n-tier. Powerbuilder concepts, mainly
> > Datawindow,
> > > > are
> > > > > great, and I want to stay with them, maybe forever..
> > > > >
> > > > > I have about 10 big applications client-server, n-tier and
Internet
> > > > written
> > > > > in PB, EAServer or MTS that are linked to Windows environment. I'm
> > > > terrified
> > > > > about Linux growth, because none of them are compatible, nor the
> > server
> > > > > object, nor the user interface (obviously, excluding the interface
> of
> > > > > Internet  apps). If we got a PB Linux version, like Borland it's
> doing
> > > > with
> > > > > Kylinx, I would relax and wait to see who will win. Maybe we
should
> > make
> > > a
> > > > > "chain" of signatures that comprise what developers think about a
PB
> > > Linux
> > > > > version, with cc to sybase marketing. PB is a big product, maybe
the
> > > > better,
> > > > > don't let it die..
> > > > >
> > > > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3B2A4221.2925E5BB@prescriber.com...
> > > > > > Roy,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This whole thread (at least my portion of it) is centered around
> two
> > > > beefs
> > > > > > which, in my mind, are interrelated.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1) Sybase marketing.  We all agree things need to get better.  I
> > > agree,
> > > > > everyone
> > > > > > should help bang the EAServer drum.  The point I was trying to
> make
> > > is,
> > > > > it's
> > > > > > hard to bang the drum when the maker of the drum isn't banging
the
> > > drum
> > > > as
> > > > > > well.  Programs are in motion, etc.  Enough said!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2) PB will not be ported to Linux.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've got a Windows PB/EAServer application that I need to move
to
> > > Linux.
> > > > > We've
> > > > > > established that I won't be able to do this without first
> rewriting
> > my
> > > > PB
> > > > > > components in Java.  I don't have the time to do a transitional
> > > > migration
> > > > > > (convert PB components one by one to Java on my current
platform -
> > > > > although I've
> > > > > > started mapping out this process).  Obviously, moving directly
> from
> > > > > Windows to
> > > > > > Linux without a language change would be the preferred route.
I'm
> a
> > > > firm
> > > > > > believer in the notion of "If it isn't broken, don't fix it".
> > > > > Translation: if
> > > > > > my application is running on Linuix using PB components, I'd be
> > > happier
> > > > > than a
> > > > > > pig in @#%! to stay with PB components and EAServer.  Moving to
> Java
> > > is
> > > > > not a
> > > > > > bad thing, it's just time consuming (coding, QA, etc.).  Yes, it
> > would
> > > > > certainly
> > > > > > raise my stock as a consultant.  The point I was trying to make
is
> > > this,
> > > > > if my
> > > > > > application is converted to Java I now have the freedom to
deploy
> to
> > > > other
> > > > > > application servers.  This is where the issue of customers
asking
> > > about
> > > > > > WebSphere and WebLogic ties in (because they are unfamiliar with
> > > > > EAServer).  I
> > > > > > was just trying to make the point that the jump to another
> > application
> > > > > server
> > > > > > would now be possible.  We all know, if a client is willing to
buy
> > > your
> > > > > > application if it will run on their favorite application server,
> > we'd
> > > be
> > > > > > inclined to comply.  Currently, and for obvious reasons, when
> asked
> > > > about
> > > > > those
> > > > > > other application servers, I always talk up EAServer.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I know we all live in an era of open technology and It's great.
> > From
> > > a
> > > > > purely
> > > > > > marketing point of view, I would think Sybase would want to keep
> > their
> > > > PB
> > > > > > developers (i.e. $$$$), for lack of a better word, locked in.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My situation aside, Linux is a logical migration for Windows
> > > > client/server
> > > > > and
> > > > > > EAServer developers.  I guess I'm the first person wishing to
make
> > > this
> > > > > > transition.  I don't think I'll be the last...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I appreciate your defense of EAServer.  It really is a great
> > product.
> > > > > But, on
> > > > > > the other hand, stripping it of a truly unique feature
(especially
> > on
> > > an
> > > > > up and
> > > > > > coming platform), waters it down and brings it back closer to
the
> > > pack.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dave
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > David,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > See comments inline...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:3B2934FA.353A127A@prescriber.com...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > <snip>
> > > > > > > > I guess my point is, if the decision makers read only about
> > > > WebSphere
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > WebLogic, chances are they won't be buying an EAServer
license
> > > when
> > > > > forced
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > switch to Java.  Especially, since WebSphere offers a free
> > > > developers
> > > > > > > license.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Valid point. Just FYI, decision makers are getting introduced
to
> > > > > EAServer
> > > > > > > (and related technologies like E-Portal, Financial Fusion and
> > > > iAnywhere
> > > > > > > m-Business Studio) in both print and media, targeted exactly
at
> > > those
> > > > > > > "decision makers" (read: don't look for it in PBDJ or JDJ,
> > although
> > > > > these
> > > > > > > publications do have ads for developers.)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sure, it expands opportunities.  Opportunities to move away
> from
> > a
> > > > > > > relatively
> > > > > > > > unknown product to a more widely know product.  Remember who
> > makes
> > > > the
> > > > > buy
> > > > > > > > decisions.  Not always the most qualified or knowledgeable
> > > people...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As I mentioned, that's changing, but it won't happen
overnight.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Agreed, but it needs to start happening soon.  I don't know
> the
> > > > > > > advertising side
> > > > > > > > of the business but, I would think buying advertising space
> > > doesn't
> > > > > take a
> > > > > > > great
> > > > > > > > deal of work, does it?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Buying ad space is not the issue -- designing ad campaigns
that
> > hit
> > > > the
> > > > > nail
> > > > > > > on the head is. That takes time...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I agree, adding Java is no detriment.  It would certainly
> > provide
> > > > more
> > > > > > > business
> > > > > > > > opportunities.  Sounds like you're asking me to do what the
> > > > marketing
> > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > should be doing.  I don't mind doing that.  However, it
would
> > far
> > > > > easier
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > mention EAServer if the CIO/CTO has read something about it
> > ahead
> > > of
> > > > > time.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am not asking you to do anything -- I am telling you what I
> and
> > > > other
> > > > > > > TeamSybase folks are doing -- we believe in Sybase product and
> we
> > > > > evangelise
> > > > > > > them. What you're asking is for Sybase to do the leg work, so
> you
> > > can
> > > > > reap
> > > > > > > the consulting gig benefits -- not to say that this is
> > > inappropriate;
> > > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > contrary. Nevertheless, if you'll just sit there and wait for
it
> > to
> > > > > happen,
> > > > > > > it will, but it will take a while. If you take the active
> approach
> > > and
> > > > > > > parttake in the evalgelism effort, you'll reap the benefits
much
> > > > sooner.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > OK, It's obvious Sybase isn't going to port PB to Linux,
sigh.
> > So
> > > > > let's
> > > > > > > stop
> > > > > > > > beating this horse to death.  I lose - uncle!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Linux? Is that what this was all about? <g>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I agree. But in all seriousness, many of this rant sessions
> > (keep'em
> > > > > > > comin' -- they keep us all sharp) boil down to one thing; do
you
> > > > believe
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > a particular Sybase product? If so, step up on your soap box
and
> > > speak
> > > > > > > out -- we'll al benefit from it. Have a problem with a
product?
> By
> > > all
> > > > > > > means, tell us about it in the newsgroups, but don't stop
there;
> > > Open
> > > > a
> > > > > case
> > > > > > > and follow up.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > <hopethishelps />
> > > > > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > > > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > > > > > > http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
Roy
6/18/2001 8:04:41 PM
Dean,

Thanks for your kind offer for assistance. Yes, despite all the despair that
I have been displaying, perhaps in the wrong forum, I would hope that I can
continue to be a "happy" Sybase customer.

Perhaps Sybase can think about re-organizing things like software updates,
customer service and version issues.
I have a EAStudio USP and it would be nice for Sybase to let me know exactly
what is going on as far as releases are concerned, like with PB8.
I was highly anticipating this release, exceited about the features in
there, and you can imagine my dissapointment when I initially found out that
I would not be entitled to it.

And like I said before, it's a shame because it's not like I have a major
problem with the tools. We have ASE 11.5, 12.0 deployed in NT and Solaris in
addidion to the development we do using EAStudio. Currently it plays a vital
role in our application development and I hope that it will be easy enough
to keep it that way.

I hope that things could be worked out, but most importantly changes be made
permanently so that I don't have to deal with issues like this in the
future.

Thanks
Nick

"Dean Jones [TeamSybase]" <dean_no_spam@powerobjects.com> wrote in message
news:sW7erHD#AHA.96@forums.sybase.com...
> Nick -
>
> Sybase does want you as a customer. We also want you to be successful.
Sorry
> for the confusion on getting your PB8 upgrade. can we help you be
successful
> with the tool?
>
> --
> Dean Jones TeamSybase
> PowerTeam, Inc.
> www.powerobjects.com
> WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
> Come visit our booth at TechWave
> EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar
>
>
> "Nick N." <nnishizaka@tokaiusa.com> wrote in message
> news:b$gtHBB#AHA.85@forums.sybase.com...
> >
> >
> > "Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]" <asimmond@mail.usyd.edu.au> wrote in
message
> > news:3B282C53.2AAE5F1A@mail.usyd.edu.au...
> > > >>Here's the latest: Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just
> > released
> > > >>PowerBuilder 8  today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you
> > can't
> > > >>actually GET it  now, but we sure did want to let you know that it
is
> > > available.
> > > Well its kind of nice to know in advance so you can build into your
> > project
> > > plans when you will migrate and who will be involved etc. How long did
> > > microsoft make us to wait for win95????
> >
> > So you are saying Sybase is just as bad as Microsoft...except much
weaker
> as
> > a company...just because Microsoft does it that way doesn't make it OK
sor
> > Sybase...in fact I don't think at this stage, Sybase can afford to be
> making
> > silly mistakes like this.
> >
> > >
> > > >>Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the
PowerBuilder
> > > >>upgrade?!
> > > Sybase are a profit organisation and if PB8 is such a good product (
> which
> > I
> > > believe it will be ) then they deserve to reap the rewards from it. I
> > would
> > > imagine that if you developed a good product you would want some money
> for
> > it?
> > > I don't imagine development tools for Oracle, BEA or IBM come cheap
> > either.
> >
> > Yeah...I'm also a victim of this lie. They sure don't act like they want
> to
> > make profits from me. Maybe Sybase forgot to take their marketing
classes.
> I
> > agree that PB8 looks nice...compared to the previous versions of PB. But
> > nothing innovative...it's just that a bunch of stuff that was missing
> > finally made it to a PB version that's all. I'm not really all that
> > impressed looking at the Beta version.  Oracle, BEA, IBM? I think Sybase
> > really needs to differentiate themselves from these companies since it
is
> > getting its butt kicked. Do something different..."Think Different",
> > stealing  a phrase from Apple...sorry! Make me want to use Sybase
> > Tools...give me a reason to stick with Sybase. So far, NOTHING.
> >
> > >
> > > >>Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one
> of
> > > >>you.  Give it up.
> > > Well I admit to being a sybase defender and attacker. I think they
have
> a
> > great
> > > suite of products and they certainly have proven themselves over the
> > years. EAS
> > > is a superb product. On the other hand I agree that marketing and
> support
> > need
> > > some polishing, but those facts alone are not good enough reasons to
> give
> > up on
> > > solid development tools.
> >
> > I agree, but from a management's perspective...I am a decision maker in
a
> > large financial institution and I always have to come up with some lousy
> > excuse to defend Sybase. But if upper management decides that Sybase is
> not
> > a reliable enough company, that's it, it's over...they would much rather
> > invest in tools made by the big names like Oracle and MS than Sybase. So
> > it's not just the tools some of us need to worry about. Not all of us
are
> > tech-heads who are blind to management's thoughts.
> >
> > >
> > > >>if you really think you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then
> you
> > must
> > > >>figure it will be through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing
> out
> > how
> > > they >>can leverage PB within EA Server.
> > > I agree with you on this but you're just bringing up what has been
> > discussed (
> > > in a better tone ) on many occasions before.
> >
> > Which kind of confirms the thought...move on...get out...jump ship
before
> it
> > sinks.
> >
> > >
> > > Best of luck
> > >
> > > A.
> >
> > Yes, best of luck to Sybase...let's see if Sybase stocks will drop to a
> > point where buying a Big Mac will be more expensive.
> >
> > >
> > > So_Long_Yu wrote:
> > >
> > > > Bleak at best, given the typical Sybase mismanagement of product
> > marketing,
> > > > customer service, etc.
> > > >
> > > > Here's the latest:
> > > > Hey everybody, look at us look at us!  We just released PowerBuilder
8
> > > > today!  Hurray for us, yippee!  Oh, by the way, you can't actually
GET
> > it
> > > > now, but we sure did want to let you know that it is available.
> > > >
> > > > Now that's interesting -- the product is released, but not
available.
> > > > Clever.
> > > >
> > > > Oh, and all you EA Studio customers -- guess what else Sybase has
come
> > up
> > > > with?  Despite the fact that PowerBuilder is a part of EA Studio,
and
> > > > despite the fact that you may be an EA Studio and EA Server
customer,
> > you
> > > > are NOT entitled to the PowerBuilder 8 upgrade!  Yep, you got it.
> This
> > is
> > > > even better than it sounds, because many of you, like us, were
> > originally
> > > > PowerBuilder Enterprise customers, and then Sybase came along and
> > > > AUTOMATICALLY upgraded you to be EA Studio customers (when PB 7 came
> > out).
> > > > Now, they tell us that EA Studio doesn't qualify for the
PowerBuilder
> > > > upgrade?!
> > > >
> > > > Attention Sybase Defenders (you know who you are):  I used to be one
> of
> > > > you.  Give it up.  Spare us the typically excuses and finger
pointing
> > about
> > > > why all of this is actually OUR fault or why this is actually a GOOD
> > thing
> > > > for us or why we should be the one marketing your freaking product
> > because
> > > > it will be more believable coming from us.  You have continually
SH*T
> on
> > > > your customers.  At this point it doesn't even matter how good or
bad
> > the
> > > > product is.  It doesn't matter that there happen to be a few good
> Sybase
> > > > engineers who do what they can in this and other newsgroups to help
> out.
> > > > You are so far behind in the application server market that it just
> > doesn't
> > > > matter anyway.  That battle was lost a long time ago; if you really
> > think
> > > > you are going to compete with BEA and IBM, then you must figure it
> will
> > be
> > > > through attracting PowerBuilder shops by pointing out how they can
> > leverage
> > > > PB within EA Server.  Problem is, you can't piss off those customers
> > FAST
> > > > enough, apparently.  So now you've come up with another w
> > > > ay to do it.
> > > >
> > > > Folks, do yourselves a favor:
> > > > http://developer.bea.com/index.jsp
> > > > http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/
> > >
> > > --
> > > __________________________
> > >
> > > Adam Simmonds [TeamSybase]
> > > System Architect
> > > ITS FLEXSIS PROJECT
> > > The University of Sydney
> > > Phone:  +61 2 9351 5174
> > > Mobile: +61 403 341 474
> > > Fax:    +61 2 9351 7711
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
Nick
6/18/2001 9:41:58 PM
Hi,

I wanted to add a point to this thread that is alarming and does show a bit
of Sybase's commitment to the Powerbuilder line.
At a conference earlier last year we were speaking with a long time, well
known Sybase guy in the Powerbuilder division. He said that
there are only about 15 people on the entire Powerbuilder product line
nowadays and that most of the Sybase talent has really moved away from the
product. As well, he said team spirits were nothing compared to the old
Powersoft days.

I personally agree that we all need to evangelize the product, but when I
hear stories like this and see extremely decreased interest at the TechWave
conferences in the PB line compared to what it was, I have to ask the
question, as a consultant, am I cutting my own throat by not going with more
mainstream products. I believe the EAServer line is better than Java
components for productivity (at least until you get a Java library built
up), but what good is having great technology if people laugh at you for
using "dated" technology. It's not that the technology is dated at all, but
that is the perception because of lack of press from Sybase. Case in point,
I have several commercial software products that run the backbone for
insurance companies as well as online web quoting for insurance product
lines. I received a call from a company in Los Angeles interested in the
product and when I told them the technology I was using the CTO felt I was
using dated and dying technology. Subsequently, I never heard from them
again. I have had this in several cases now to the point where I highlight
my Oracle backend and my business processes but downplay the middle and
front tier technologies except to state things like "pure HTML thin client"
and such.

Anyway, Sybase really needs to raise the interest of the development
community, if they are excited it can work bottom up. The people making the
decisions may not know much but their opinions can be influenced by trusted
others who bark in their ear all the time. Powersoft was masterfull at
getting techies excited. We don't see this anymore.

Another factor is the really poor development stability of PB 7 and all the
crazy things that happen. PB 8 is supposed to be better, but as soon as we
attempted to migrate our software it crashed -- needless to say we haven't
looked at it since.

On the business partner side, I am an alliance parnter with Sybase and a BAP
with Oracle as well as belonging to Microsoft's development community.
Sybase still doesn't provide a very cheap method of letting people develop
with their products and to stay in the Sybase family so that I can resell my
applications on EAServer I have to guarantee volume. In a small company such
as mine I don't really have that much volume so the whole framework is kind
of silly. If I'm investing in developing products on top of their
technologies from which they will gain perpetual licence advantages and more
market share, why force me into a situation where volume needs to be
guarateed in my sales. I have no such limits with Oracle, which is the
database that I happily put my products in.

To make things right we need to first admit the problems, then work towards
better answers. The Powersoft line is great. EAServer is good.
Let's clean up the marketing issues and the aliiance issues and get things
back on track. Microsoft and Oracle make it too simple to move to their
products by simply joining their developer programs for a few grand a year
you get every piece of software they publish. With Sybase, I don't even have
a very good handle on the depth of their product lines.

We should be kicking Silverstreams ass at least but even they are better
known.



Regards,
Brad



"Dean Jones [TeamSybase]" <dean_no_spam@powerobjects.com> wrote in message
news:15$DJwA#AHA.301@forums.sybase.com...
> I just want to point out Sybase does have a solution for Linux. EAServer
and
> PowerJ. It appearent that Linux application will be written in Java.
>
> --
> Dean Jones TeamSybase
> PowerTeam, Inc.
> www.powerobjects.com
> WebReport - Move your reports to the web!
> Come visit our booth at TechWave
> EAServer Seminar http://www.powerobjects.com/seminar
>
>
> "Wendell Rios" <walmeida@tecnotrends.com.br> wrote in message
> news:fEhEiYc9AHA.194@forums.sybase.com...
> > Dave and all,
> >
> > I just want to say that I agree completeley with you, mainly in second
> > issue. By now, we are clearing starting two separate threads in future
> > desktop and server development : Windows or Linux.
> >
> > Staying with Windows, more earlier than imagined, will be needed to
> support
> > the CLR and .NET framework. I believe that soon Microsoft will do all
that
> > is possible to cut Java development in Windows machines, mainly because
> they
> > (MS), are not permitted to do nothing in this field.  I also know that
> > EAServer is a great product, very better thant MTS for example, and will
> > find it market earlier or late.
> >
> > However, I'm afraid about Powerbuilder future, that to me is the best
and
> > RAID, open, development tool for database applications , regarding this
> > applications are 2 or n-tier. Powerbuilder concepts, mainly Datawindow,
> are
> > great, and I want to stay with them, maybe forever..
> >
> > I have about 10 big applications client-server, n-tier and Internet
> written
> > in PB, EAServer or MTS that are linked to Windows environment. I'm
> terrified
> > about Linux growth, because none of them are compatible, nor the server
> > object, nor the user interface (obviously, excluding the interface of
> > Internet  apps). If we got a PB Linux version, like Borland it's doing
> with
> > Kylinx, I would relax and wait to see who will win. Maybe we should make
a
> > "chain" of signatures that comprise what developers think about a PB
Linux
> > version, with cc to sybase marketing. PB is a big product, maybe the
> better,
> > don't let it die..
> >
> > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > news:3B2A4221.2925E5BB@prescriber.com...
> > > Roy,
> > >
> > > This whole thread (at least my portion of it) is centered around two
> beefs
> > > which, in my mind, are interrelated.
> > >
> > > 1) Sybase marketing.  We all agree things need to get better.  I
agree,
> > everyone
> > > should help bang the EAServer drum.  The point I was trying to make
is,
> > it's
> > > hard to bang the drum when the maker of the drum isn't banging the
drum
> as
> > > well.  Programs are in motion, etc.  Enough said!
> > >
> > > 2) PB will not be ported to Linux.
> > >
> > > I've got a Windows PB/EAServer application that I need to move to
Linux.
> > We've
> > > established that I won't be able to do this without first rewriting my
> PB
> > > components in Java.  I don't have the time to do a transitional
> migration
> > > (convert PB components one by one to Java on my current platform -
> > although I've
> > > started mapping out this process).  Obviously, moving directly from
> > Windows to
> > > Linux without a language change would be the preferred route.  I'm a
> firm
> > > believer in the notion of "If it isn't broken, don't fix it".
> > Translation: if
> > > my application is running on Linuix using PB components, I'd be
happier
> > than a
> > > pig in @#%! to stay with PB components and EAServer.  Moving to Java
is
> > not a
> > > bad thing, it's just time consuming (coding, QA, etc.).  Yes, it would
> > certainly
> > > raise my stock as a consultant.  The point I was trying to make is
this,
> > if my
> > > application is converted to Java I now have the freedom to deploy to
> other
> > > application servers.  This is where the issue of customers asking
about
> > > WebSphere and WebLogic ties in (because they are unfamiliar with
> > EAServer).  I
> > > was just trying to make the point that the jump to another application
> > server
> > > would now be possible.  We all know, if a client is willing to buy
your
> > > application if it will run on their favorite application server, we'd
be
> > > inclined to comply.  Currently, and for obvious reasons, when asked
> about
> > those
> > > other application servers, I always talk up EAServer.
> > >
> > > I know we all live in an era of open technology and It's great.  From
a
> > purely
> > > marketing point of view, I would think Sybase would want to keep their
> PB
> > > developers (i.e. $$$$), for lack of a better word, locked in.
> > >
> > > My situation aside, Linux is a logical migration for Windows
> client/server
> > and
> > > EAServer developers.  I guess I'm the first person wishing to make
this
> > > transition.  I don't think I'll be the last...
> > >
> > > I appreciate your defense of EAServer.  It really is a great product.
> > But, on
> > > the other hand, stripping it of a truly unique feature (especially on
an
> > up and
> > > coming platform), waters it down and brings it back closer to the
pack.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > >
> > > "Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" wrote:
> > >
> > > > David,
> > > >
> > > > See comments inline...
> > > >
> > > > "David Short" <david.short@prescriber.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:3B2934FA.353A127A@prescriber.com...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > <snip>
> > > > > I guess my point is, if the decision makers read only about
> WebSphere
> > and
> > > > > WebLogic, chances are they won't be buying an EAServer license
when
> > forced
> > > > to
> > > > > switch to Java.  Especially, since WebSphere offers a free
> developers
> > > > license.
> > > >
> > > > Valid point. Just FYI, decision makers are getting introduced to
> > EAServer
> > > > (and related technologies like E-Portal, Financial Fusion and
> iAnywhere
> > > > m-Business Studio) in both print and media, targeted exactly at
those
> > > > "decision makers" (read: don't look for it in PBDJ or JDJ, although
> > these
> > > > publications do have ads for developers.)
> > > >
> > > > > Sure, it expands opportunities.  Opportunities to move away from a
> > > > relatively
> > > > > unknown product to a more widely know product.  Remember who makes
> the
> > buy
> > > > > decisions.  Not always the most qualified or knowledgeable
people...
> > > >
> > > > As I mentioned, that's changing, but it won't happen overnight.
> > > >
> > > > > Agreed, but it needs to start happening soon.  I don't know the
> > > > advertising side
> > > > > of the business but, I would think buying advertising space
doesn't
> > take a
> > > > great
> > > > > deal of work, does it?
> > > >
> > > > Buying ad space is not the issue -- designing ad campaigns that hit
> the
> > nail
> > > > on the head is. That takes time...
> > > >
> > > > > I agree, adding Java is no detriment.  It would certainly provide
> more
> > > > business
> > > > > opportunities.  Sounds like you're asking me to do what the
> marketing
> > > > people
> > > > > should be doing.  I don't mind doing that.  However, it would far
> > easier
> > > > to
> > > > > mention EAServer if the CIO/CTO has read something about it ahead
of
> > time.
> > > >
> > > > I am not asking you to do anything -- I am telling you what I and
> other
> > > > TeamSybase folks are doing -- we believe in Sybase product and we
> > evangelise
> > > > them. What you're asking is for Sybase to do the leg work, so you
can
> > reap
> > > > the consulting gig benefits -- not to say that this is
inappropriate;
> on
> > the
> > > > contrary. Nevertheless, if you'll just sit there and wait for it to
> > happen,
> > > > it will, but it will take a while. If you take the active approach
and
> > > > parttake in the evalgelism effort, you'll reap the benefits much
> sooner.
> > > >
> > > > > OK, It's obvious Sybase isn't going to port PB to Linux, sigh.  So
> > let's
> > > > stop
> > > > > beating this horse to death.  I lose - uncle!
> > > >
> > > > Linux? Is that what this was all about? <g>
> > > >
> > > > I agree. But in all seriousness, many of this rant sessions (keep'em
> > > > comin' -- they keep us all sharp) boil down to one thing; do you
> believe
> > in
> > > > a particular Sybase product? If so, step up on your soap box and
speak
> > > > out -- we'll al benefit from it. Have a problem with a product? By
all
> > > > means, tell us about it in the newsgroups, but don't stop there;
Open
> a
> > case
> > > > and follow up.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > <hopethishelps />
> > > > Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> > > > mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> > > > http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
forums
8/28/2001 4:51:56 PM
Brad,

See comments inline...

--
<hopethishelps />
Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231

"forums.sybase.com" <bgawne@bralarsoftware.com> wrote in message
news:s5#2UX#LBHA.201@forums.sybase.com...
<snip>
> At a conference earlier last year we were speaking with a long time, well
> known Sybase guy in the Powerbuilder division. He said that
> there are only about 15 people on the entire Powerbuilder product line
> nowadays and that most of the Sybase talent has really moved away from the
> product. As well, he said team spirits were nothing compared to the old
> Powersoft days.

Have you attended TechWave 2001? The PowerBuilder development team, while
relatively new (people shift jobs, that's reality) is very enthusiastic, and
based on the work they did with PB8 and the alpha of 8.5, they are very
competant.

> I personally agree that we all need to evangelize the product, but when I
> hear stories like this and see extremely decreased interest at the
TechWave
> conferences

Based on what are you asserting this?

> I have to ask the
> question, as a consultant, am I cutting my own throat by not going with
more
> mainstream products.

Who says you have to pick one product? Keep your PB skills, learn Java and
keep your options open.

> I told them the technology I was using the CTO felt I was
> using dated and dying technology. Subsequently, I never heard from them
> again.

Typical short-sighted reaction. Fortunately, you now know how to circumvent
this...

> Anyway, Sybase really needs to raise the interest of the development
> community, if they are excited it can work bottom up. The people making
the
> decisions may not know much but their opinions can be influenced by
trusted
> others who bark in their ear all the time. Powersoft was masterfull at
> getting techies excited. We don't see this anymore.

Stay tuned to some kick-ass new features in 8.5.

> Another factor is the really poor development stability of PB 7 and all
the
> crazy things that happen. PB 8 is supposed to be better, but as soon as we
> attempted to migrate our software it crashed -- needless to say we haven't
> looked at it since.


8.0 is remarkably more stable that any previous 7.0 version I and others in
these forums have worked with. Obviously, you ran into migration issues, but
you do not provide any details. Have you used the migration wizard. Did you
get any errors during the migration process? Just quitting after the first
GPF is rather short-sighted...


--
<hopethishelps />
Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231



0
Roy
8/28/2001 5:33:16 PM
Hi Roy,

Thanks for the answers. I didn't make TechWave 2001 partially because I
wasn't sure how good it would be and paritially because I was tied up.
I am really glad to hear there is a revitalized tech team on the new PB
stuff. Perhaps it was in transition last September during the Toronto PB
User Group conference.

> > I personally agree that we all need to evangelize the product, but when
I
> > hear stories like this and see extremely decreased interest at the
> TechWave
> > conferences
>
> Based on what are you asserting this?

Based on speaking with people and comparing to previous years. As well, most
of the PB user groups are dying out and there is  drop in the number of
avaliable jobs. I would call these leading indicators if I wanted to use my
MBA background <VBG>.


> Who says you have to pick one product? Keep your PB skills, learn Java and
> keep your options open.


I have learned several products (JBuilder, PB, C++, HTML, etc. etc). But you
know the saying, Jack of all Master of none. To be good at serveral is a
costly and a time consuming endevaor that stretches on you over many years.

> Stay tuned to some kick-ass new features in 8.5.

I look forward to this.


> 8.0 is remarkably more stable that any previous 7.0 version I and others
in
> these forums have worked with. Obviously, you ran into migration issues,
but
> you do not provide any details. Have you used the migration wizard. Did
you
> get any errors during the migration process? Just quitting after the first
> GPF is rather short-sighted...


I have been with Powerbuilder since version 3. Every migration is a costly,
time consuming pain in the behind that take at least a few months to work
out the new bugs. I just wish for once when they say one step migration that
it actually worked. I would be happy to provide my application under NDA as
a test for migration in new versions, as it seems to be so large that it
always give troubles. I didn't provide details because I wasn't asking for
help on the actual migration. I know its a matter of sitting down and
working through it like all the other times in the past, but I don't have
that much time so when I get to it...... I still have a whole company to
manage as well as 6 active projects <g>.

Thanks for the quick responses. My fingers are crossed for Sybase.

TTL.


Best Regards,
Brad












"Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]" <SPAM_FREE_roy.kiesler@teamsybase.com> wrote in
message news:OYBBDs#LBHA.259@forums.sybase.com...
> Brad,
>
> See comments inline...
>
> --
> <hopethishelps />
> Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
>
> "forums.sybase.com" <bgawne@bralarsoftware.com> wrote in message
> news:s5#2UX#LBHA.201@forums.sybase.com...
> <snip>
> > At a conference earlier last year we were speaking with a long time,
well
> > known Sybase guy in the Powerbuilder division. He said that
> > there are only about 15 people on the entire Powerbuilder product line
> > nowadays and that most of the Sybase talent has really moved away from
the
> > product. As well, he said team spirits were nothing compared to the old
> > Powersoft days.
>
> Have you attended TechWave 2001? The PowerBuilder development team, while
> relatively new (people shift jobs, that's reality) is very enthusiastic,
and
> based on the work they did with PB8 and the alpha of 8.5, they are very
> competant.
>
> > I personally agree that we all need to evangelize the product, but when
I
> > hear stories like this and see extremely decreased interest at the
> TechWave
> > conferences
>
> Based on what are you asserting this?
>
> > I have to ask the
> > question, as a consultant, am I cutting my own throat by not going with
> more
> > mainstream products.
>
> Who says you have to pick one product? Keep your PB skills, learn Java and
> keep your options open.
>
> > I told them the technology I was using the CTO felt I was
> > using dated and dying technology. Subsequently, I never heard from them
> > again.
>
> Typical short-sighted reaction. Fortunately, you now know how to
circumvent
> this...
>
> > Anyway, Sybase really needs to raise the interest of the development
> > community, if they are excited it can work bottom up. The people making
> the
> > decisions may not know much but their opinions can be influenced by
> trusted
> > others who bark in their ear all the time. Powersoft was masterfull at
> > getting techies excited. We don't see this anymore.
>
> Stay tuned to some kick-ass new features in 8.5.
>
> > Another factor is the really poor development stability of PB 7 and all
> the
> > crazy things that happen. PB 8 is supposed to be better, but as soon as
we
> > attempted to migrate our software it crashed -- needless to say we
haven't
> > looked at it since.
>
>
> 8.0 is remarkably more stable that any previous 7.0 version I and others
in
> these forums have worked with. Obviously, you ran into migration issues,
but
> you do not provide any details. Have you used the migration wizard. Did
you
> get any errors during the migration process? Just quitting after the first
> GPF is rather short-sighted...
>
>
> --
> <hopethishelps />
> Roy Kiesler [TeamSybase]
> mySybase -- http://my.sybase.com
> http://cgi.exp.com/noauth/advisor_profile.cgi?adv_id=512231
>
>
>


0
forums
8/28/2001 6:02:32 PM
Reply:

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