Datawindow.NET futures and feedback

Let me just caveat this entire post: I REALIZE THAT THIS IS BLEEDING EDGE. 
A LOT WILL CHANGE.  I DO NOT WISH TO START A FLAME WAR.  SYBASE ONLY EMPLOYS 
MAGNIFICENT CREATURES OF INSIGHT (that just needed to be said... I have 
wanted to compliment them for some time).

Okay, so, I don't want to download a trial of the VS.NET IDE for use with a 
trial of Datawindows.NET.  So, I got to looking around.  I attempted an 
open-source C# editor, but there was a critical bug.  So, I installed the M$ 
C# Express beta, which uses .NET framework v2 beta.

I then noted that datawindows.NET would not work (maybe a bit of an 
overstatement) with THAT VERSION of the technology. Express only works for 
local databases and doesn't 'allow' (I bet there'll be a hack) a connection 
to a remote database (makes Express pretty worthless IMHO).  So, THAT caused 
me to download and install the website (Interdev?) Express beta (becoming a 
long story).  Okay, that blew out any real connection with the (not-so) 
current Datawindow.NET eval...

I was just messing around and was able (pretty easily) to create a web 
service that returned a dataset.  In fact, I stole some code from Oracle's 
helpfile to do so.  I then installed a <yuck> datagrid on a webpage, chose 
object as the datasource... and in no time was able to display the results 
of the webservice on the webpage.  While the end result is pretty freaking 
cool, I can't help but be revolted by what I noted were about 6 objects 
being added to my webpage to facilitate this activity. It wasn't so much 
that these objects were added <shiver>, but I don't know what any of them 
are...  I mean, it seems, to me-- a neophyte, like there are a lot of new 
technologies being added to the .NET framework in version 2.

Now, I know that Sybase works hard, and that they do a great job.  So, I 
assume that there are plans where this is concerned. M$ is really changing 
up the VS.NET suite to the whole "team system" and "express" 
approach/packaging.  Additionally, they are making a lot of new crap 
(technology) which almost necessitates pretty good integration with the IDE 
(in my example 6 objects added without my knowledge, consent, or 
interference) to work as robustly and simply as the .NET controls. (okay, 
it's officially a long story, now)

And, finally, I get to my question.  I know that long-term plans indicate a 
full integration with the .NET IDE... which one(s), I have no idea (that's 1 
question I have).  Also, what are you planning to do in the mean time (Team 
System/Express is scheduled for this year... and Datawindow/PB integration 
is a ways off) to help Datawindow users achieve the ease of use (at least as 
far as the plumbing and flexibility of datasources are concerned) that the 
datagrid will enjoy?

Here's a thought... just make your own, small, simple IDE.  You could allow 
C#, VB, or any other .NET language, compile to MONO or .NET, (which could 
deploy/run the appropriate PB VM, if necessary) and integrate with the 
Datawindow technology.  Wait, did I just describe PB 12?  If not, you could 
combine the DataWindow.NET design tool with the SharpDevelop open source 
project (after you fix a couple of bugs), and I'd be happy with that....  Of 
course, add support for webservices to your datawindows, and you're really 
in business.... Throw in a couple of KISS wizards for popular tasks, and 
seamless deployment, and I'm excited to be your customer (I already am, but 
that's another matter).

Now, let me vent... I WISH M$ WOULD JUST DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME.  I HATE 
IT WHEN THEY CHANGE UP THEIR TECHNOLOGY EVERY COUPLE OF YEARS.  Hey, PB has 
its issues, but it's still leading edge... and it's been around for a LONG 
time (ITologically (vs. geologically) speaking).

Well, that's my 2 cents, and the other $1.50 for good measure.

Mike 


0
Mike
4/8/2005 4:45:14 PM
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On 8 Apr 2005 09:45:14 -0700, "Mike Shumway" <shummer_mc@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>I then noted that datawindows.NET would not work (maybe a bit of an 
>overstatement) with THAT VERSION of the technology. Express only works for 
>local databases and doesn't 'allow' (I bet there'll be a hack) a connection 
>to a remote database (makes Express pretty worthless IMHO).

FWIW, you can use native drivers with DataWindow.Net, so that might
bypass the Express restriction.

>While the end result is pretty freaking cool, I can't help but be revolted by 
>what I noted were about 6 objects  being added to my webpage to facilitate
> this activity. It wasn't so much that these objects were added <shiver>, 
>but I don't know what any of them are...  I mean, it seems, to me-- a 
>neophyte, like there are a lot of new technologies being added to the 
>.NET framework in version 2.

I'm lost.  What 6 objects?  If you're referring to a DataConnection, a
DataAdapter, a DataGrid, perhaps a DataSet, that's all part of .Net.
Unless you want to use the Sybase.DataWindow.Transaction object and
bypass that, you're stuck with the .Net way of doing things.


Bruce Armstrong [TeamSybase]
http://www.teamsybase.com

Using DataWindow .NET with MSDN
http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=43031

Seventh Annual Sybase Tools Seminar
http://seminar.powerobjects.com/

Vote for DataWindow.Net!
http://sys-con.com/dotnet/readerschoice2004/

TeamSybase blogs:
http://www.teamsybase.net/blogs

PowerBuilder Developer's Journal:
http://sys-con.com/pbdj/

Two 3rd party books on developing with PowerBuilder
http://www.pb9books.com?source=newsgroups

Need code sample?  Check out CodeXchange:
http://www.codexchange.sybase.com

Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words. - Francis of Assisi
http://www.needhim.org

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0
Bruce
4/9/2005 3:48:17 AM
Mike,

what I am missing is a low-end facility to allow the interested 
developer to pick up the DW.NET skills. My workload varies widely, so I 
cannot commit to a finite-period evaluation. 

With Dot.Net, I have found my way by simply using the SDK (no IDE). I 
was able to deliver quite complex background applications, and cut my 
teeth with the environment, without having to purchase anything. A 
decade ago, I could learn PB with the desktop version, again, almost 
free. But I have found no way to learn DW.NET yet. Each month, I would 
have a few hours every month for this purpose. Over the year, this would 
add up.

So, yes, there is a concern about the entry being too high, which in 
turn acts as a limiting factor for achieving mindshare. On the other 
hand, I cannot expect Sybase to deliver more free stuff, since we need 
the vendor to be still around in the future.

Andrew

Mike Shumway wrote:

>Let me just caveat this entire post: I REALIZE THAT THIS IS BLEEDING EDGE. 
>A LOT WILL CHANGE.  I DO NOT WISH TO START A FLAME WAR.  SYBASE ONLY EMPLOYS 
>MAGNIFICENT CREATURES OF INSIGHT (that just needed to be said... I have 
>wanted to compliment them for some time).
>
>Okay, so, I don't want to download a trial of the VS.NET IDE for use with a 
>trial of Datawindows.NET.  So, I got to looking around.  I attempted an 
>open-source C# editor, but there was a critical bug.  So, I installed the M$ 
>C# Express beta, which uses .NET framework v2 beta.
>
>I then noted that datawindows.NET would not work (maybe a bit of an 
>overstatement) with THAT VERSION of the technology. Express only works for 
>local databases and doesn't 'allow' (I bet there'll be a hack) a connection 
>to a remote database (makes Express pretty worthless IMHO).  So, THAT caused 
>me to download and install the website (Interdev?) Express beta (becoming a 
>long story).  Okay, that blew out any real connection with the (not-so) 
>current Datawindow.NET eval...
>
>I was just messing around and was able (pretty easily) to create a web 
>service that returned a dataset.  In fact, I stole some code from Oracle's 
>helpfile to do so.  I then installed a <yuck> datagrid on a webpage, chose 
>object as the datasource... and in no time was able to display the results 
>of the webservice on the webpage.  While the end result is pretty freaking 
>cool, I can't help but be revolted by what I noted were about 6 objects 
>being added to my webpage to facilitate this activity. It wasn't so much 
>that these objects were added <shiver>, but I don't know what any of them 
>are...  I mean, it seems, to me-- a neophyte, like there are a lot of new 
>technologies being added to the .NET framework in version 2.
>
>Now, I know that Sybase works hard, and that they do a great job.  So, I 
>assume that there are plans where this is concerned. M$ is really changing 
>up the VS.NET suite to the whole "team system" and "express" 
>approach/packaging.  Additionally, they are making a lot of new crap 
>(technology) which almost necessitates pretty good integration with the IDE 
>(in my example 6 objects added without my knowledge, consent, or 
>interference) to work as robustly and simply as the .NET controls. (okay, 
>it's officially a long story, now)
>
>And, finally, I get to my question.  I know that long-term plans indicate a 
>full integration with the .NET IDE... which one(s), I have no idea (that's 1 
>question I have).  Also, what are you planning to do in the mean time (Team 
>System/Express is scheduled for this year... and Datawindow/PB integration 
>is a ways off) to help Datawindow users achieve the ease of use (at least as 
>far as the plumbing and flexibility of datasources are concerned) that the 
>datagrid will enjoy?
>
>Here's a thought... just make your own, small, simple IDE.  You could allow 
>C#, VB, or any other .NET language, compile to MONO or .NET, (which could 
>deploy/run the appropriate PB VM, if necessary) and integrate with the 
>Datawindow technology.  Wait, did I just describe PB 12?  If not, you could 
>combine the DataWindow.NET design tool with the SharpDevelop open source 
>project (after you fix a couple of bugs), and I'd be happy with that....  Of 
>course, add support for webservices to your datawindows, and you're really 
>in business.... Throw in a couple of KISS wizards for popular tasks, and 
>seamless deployment, and I'm excited to be your customer (I already am, but 
>that's another matter).
>
>Now, let me vent... I WISH M$ WOULD JUST DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME.  I HATE 
>IT WHEN THEY CHANGE UP THEIR TECHNOLOGY EVERY COUPLE OF YEARS.  Hey, PB has 
>its issues, but it's still leading edge... and it's been around for a LONG 
>time (ITologically (vs. geologically) speaking).
>
>Well, that's my 2 cents, and the other $1.50 for good measure.
>
>Mike 
>
>
>  
>

0
Andrew
6/19/2005 12:09:19 AM
Reply: