vulgar?

Hi All,

I really like this guys style of writing and examples
for Perl6.

But he can be a bit vulgar at times, which I ignore.
Is he doing it on purpose?  Or is there some translation
error and he does not realize he is swearing?

Warning: if you go here there are some dirty words
in the titles:

https://andrewshitov.com/category/using-perl-6/

-T
0
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12/5/2019 9:56:08 AM
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On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 03:57 Todd Chester via perl6-users <
perl6-users@perl.org> wrote
....

> I really like this guys style of writing and examples
> for Perl6.
>
> But he can be a bit vulgar at times, which I ignore.
> Is he doing it on purpose?


Todd, I took a quick glance at the link you gave and all I saw was
reference to the Brain* language (whose author I believe should be ashamed
of himself for that name--something like "Braincramp" would have been
better).

I have all Andrew's books and read many of his blogs and never noticed any
trend of vulgarity (which, I too, am sensitive to).  I do see evidence of
several Perl and Raku people whose speech can sometimes be quite crude and
blasphemous, but I'm afraid that's the modern world: good manners and
civility have all but disappeared in public places. I will say, though,
that the #Raku IRC channel has much less coarse lingo and much more
kindness than most other places I visit.

I have had several email conversations with Andrew and he seems like a nice
person to me. I sometimes think non-native English speakers pick up bad
speech habits because of the absolutely sewer-mouthed "popular" folks on
Twitter.

Best regards,

-Tom

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<div><div dir=3D"auto">On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 03:57 Todd Chester via perl6-=
users &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:perl6-users@perl.org">perl6-users@perl.org</a>&=
gt; wrote</div></div><div dir=3D"auto">...</div><div><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I really like this guys style of writing and examples<br>
for Perl6.<br>
<br>
But he can be a bit vulgar at times, which I ignore.<br>
Is he doing it on purpose?</blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">Todd, I took a quick glance at the link you gave and all I saw wa=
s reference to the Brain* language (whose author I believe should be ashame=
d of himself for that name--something like &quot;Braincramp&quot; would hav=
e been better).</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I have a=
ll Andrew&#39;s books and read many of his blogs and never noticed any tren=
d of vulgarity (which, I too, am sensitive to).=C2=A0 I do see evidence of =
several Perl and Raku people whose speech can sometimes be quite crude and =
blasphemous, but I&#39;m afraid that&#39;s the modern world: good manners a=
nd civility have all but disappeared in public places. I will say, though, =
that the #Raku IRC channel has much less coarse lingo and much more kindnes=
s than most other places I visit.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">I have had several email conversations with Andrew and he seems l=
ike a nice person to me. I sometimes think non-native English speakers pick=
 up bad speech habits because of the absolutely sewer-mouthed &quot;popular=
&quot; folks on Twitter.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>Best regards,</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">-Tom</div=
><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></div></div>

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tom
12/5/2019 10:38:18 AM
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it's the level of vulgarity you'd expect from a guy called S***ov.

But seriously, it's nothing you won't see on basic cable or the Linux 
Kernel mailing list.

Erez

On 12/5/19 12:38 PM, Tom Browder wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 03:57 Todd Chester via perl6-users 
> <perl6-users@perl.org <mailto:perl6-users@perl.org>> wrote
> ...
>
>     I really like this guys style of writing and examples
>     for Perl6.
>
>     But he can be a bit vulgar at times, which I ignore.
>     Is he doing it on purpose?
>
>
> Todd, I took a quick glance at the link you gave and all I saw was 
> reference to the Brain* language (whose author I believe should be 
> ashamed of himself for that name--something like "Braincramp" would 
> have been better).
>
> I have all Andrew's books and read many of his blogs and never noticed 
> any trend of vulgarity (which, I too, am sensitive to).  I do see 
> evidence of several Perl and Raku people whose speech can sometimes be 
> quite crude and blasphemous, but I'm afraid that's the modern world: 
> good manners and civility have all but disappeared in public places. I 
> will say, though, that the #Raku IRC channel has much less coarse 
> lingo and much more kindness than most other places I visit.
>
> I have had several email conversations with Andrew and he seems like a 
> nice person to me. I sometimes think non-native English speakers pick 
> up bad speech habits because of the absolutely sewer-mouthed "popular" 
> folks on Twitter.
>
> Best regards,
>
> -Tom
>

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    <p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">it's the level of
        vulgarity you'd expect from a guy called S***ov.</font></p>
    <p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">But seriously, it's
        nothing you won't see on basic cable or the Linux Kernel mailing
        list.</font></p>
    <p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Erez<br>
      </font></p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/5/19 12:38 PM, Tom Browder wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAFMGiz_26mRa5173HE90BfuWWsJp=r68X4Q7SbdF==Gga1wYHA@mail.gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div>
        <div dir="auto">On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 03:57 Todd Chester via
          perl6-users &lt;<a href="mailto:perl6-users@perl.org"
            moz-do-not-send="true">perl6-users@perl.org</a>&gt; wrote</div>
      </div>
      <div dir="auto">...</div>
      <div>
        <div class="gmail_quote">
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            I really like this guys style of writing and examples<br>
            for Perl6.<br>
            <br>
            But he can be a bit vulgar at times, which I ignore.<br>
            Is he doing it on purpose?</blockquote>
          <div dir="auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir="auto">Todd, I took a quick glance at the link you
            gave and all I saw was reference to the Brain* language
            (whose author I believe should be ashamed of himself for
            that name--something like "Braincramp" would have been
            better).</div>
          <div dir="auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir="auto">I have all Andrew's books and read many of his
            blogs and never noticed any trend of vulgarity (which, I
            too, am sensitive to).  I do see evidence of several Perl
            and Raku people whose speech can sometimes be quite crude
            and blasphemous, but I'm afraid that's the modern world:
            good manners and civility have all but disappeared in public
            places. I will say, though, that the #Raku IRC channel has
            much less coarse lingo and much more kindness than most
            other places I visit.</div>
          <div dir="auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir="auto">I have had several email conversations with
            Andrew and he seems like a nice person to me. I sometimes
            think non-native English speakers pick up bad speech habits
            because of the absolutely sewer-mouthed "popular" folks on
            Twitter.</div>
          <div dir="auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir="auto">Best regards,</div>
          <div dir="auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir="auto">-Tom</div>
          <div dir="auto"><br>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
  </body>
</html>

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moonbuzz
12/5/2019 10:42:04 AM
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"it's the level of vulgarity you'd expect from a guy called S***ov."
.... and know it's getting personal... -.-

Erez Schatz <moonbuzz@gmail.com> schrieb am Do., 5. Dez. 2019, 11:42:

> it's the level of vulgarity you'd expect from a guy called S***ov.
>
> But seriously, it's nothing you won't see on basic cable or the Linux
> Kernel mailing list.
>
> Erez
> On 12/5/19 12:38 PM, Tom Browder wrote:
>
> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 03:57 Todd Chester via perl6-users <
> perl6-users@perl.org> wrote
> ...
>
>> I really like this guys style of writing and examples
>> for Perl6.
>>
>> But he can be a bit vulgar at times, which I ignore.
>> Is he doing it on purpose?
>
>
> Todd, I took a quick glance at the link you gave and all I saw was
> reference to the Brain* language (whose author I believe should be ashamed
> of himself for that name--something like "Braincramp" would have been
> better).
>
> I have all Andrew's books and read many of his blogs and never noticed any
> trend of vulgarity (which, I too, am sensitive to).  I do see evidence of
> several Perl and Raku people whose speech can sometimes be quite crude and
> blasphemous, but I'm afraid that's the modern world: good manners and
> civility have all but disappeared in public places. I will say, though,
> that the #Raku IRC channel has much less coarse lingo and much more
> kindness than most other places I visit.
>
> I have had several email conversations with Andrew and he seems like a
> nice person to me. I sometimes think non-native English speakers pick up
> bad speech habits because of the absolutely sewer-mouthed "popular" folks
> on Twitter.
>
> Best regards,
>
> -Tom
>
>

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<div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:12.8px">&quot;it&#39;s the level of vulgarity you&#39;d expect from =
a guy called S***ov.&quot;</span><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">... and know it&#39;s getti=
ng personal... -.-</span></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div di=
r=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">Erez Schatz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:moonbuzz@g=
mail.com">moonbuzz@gmail.com</a>&gt; schrieb am Do., 5. Dez. 2019, 11:42:<b=
r></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <p><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">it&#39;s the level of
        vulgarity you&#39;d expect from a guy called S***ov.</font></p>
    <p><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">But seriously, it&#39;s
        nothing you won&#39;t see on basic cable or the Linux Kernel mailin=
g
        list.</font></p>
    <p><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Erez<br>
      </font></p>
    <div>On 12/5/19 12:38 PM, Tom Browder wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
     =20
      <div>
        <div dir=3D"auto">On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 03:57 Todd Chester via
          perl6-users &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:perl6-users@perl.org" target=3D=
"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">perl6-users@perl.org</a>&gt; wrote</div>
      </div>
      <div dir=3D"auto">...</div>
      <div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            I really like this guys style of writing and examples<br>
            for Perl6.<br>
            <br>
            But he can be a bit vulgar at times, which I ignore.<br>
            Is he doing it on purpose?</blockquote>
          <div dir=3D"auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir=3D"auto">Todd, I took a quick glance at the link you
            gave and all I saw was reference to the Brain* language
            (whose author I believe should be ashamed of himself for
            that name--something like &quot;Braincramp&quot; would have bee=
n
            better).</div>
          <div dir=3D"auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir=3D"auto">I have all Andrew&#39;s books and read many of =
his
            blogs and never noticed any trend of vulgarity (which, I
            too, am sensitive to).=C2=A0 I do see evidence of several Perl
            and Raku people whose speech can sometimes be quite crude
            and blasphemous, but I&#39;m afraid that&#39;s the modern world=
:
            good manners and civility have all but disappeared in public
            places. I will say, though, that the #Raku IRC channel has
            much less coarse lingo and much more kindness than most
            other places I visit.</div>
          <div dir=3D"auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir=3D"auto">I have had several email conversations with
            Andrew and he seems like a nice person to me. I sometimes
            think non-native English speakers pick up bad speech habits
            because of the absolutely sewer-mouthed &quot;popular&quot; fol=
ks on
            Twitter.</div>
          <div dir=3D"auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir=3D"auto">Best regards,</div>
          <div dir=3D"auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir=3D"auto">-Tom</div>
          <div dir=3D"auto"><br>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
  </div>

</blockquote></div>

--000000000000f254260598f2d173--
0
tobias
12/5/2019 10:58:23 AM
Hi Todd,

There's a well-known, non-English-based computer language with an
unfortunate name here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck
https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Rosetta_Code:Brainf***

I trust you'll find Andy Shitov meant no vulgarity on his blog. I've
been meaning to invite more people via CC: when I send emails to
perl6-users@perl.org. Your comment gives me an excuse to contact Andy
so he can tell you that himself.

HTH, Bill.

On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 1:57 AM Todd Chester via perl6-users
<perl6-users@perl.org> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I really like this guys style of writing and examples
> for Perl6.
>
> But he can be a bit vulgar at times, which I ignore.
> Is he doing it on purpose?  Or is there some translation
> error and he does not realize he is swearing?
>
> Warning: if you go here there are some dirty words
> in the titles:
>
> https://andrewshitov.com/category/using-perl-6/
>
> -T
0
perl6
12/5/2019 11:03:15 AM
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Not in the least, I was just pointing that "vulgarity" is in the eye of 
the beholder. Words are just words. Sometimes they are names, other 
times they are swear words, other times they are just text. All in the 
way you see them.

Erez

On 05/12/2019 12:58, Tobias Leich wrote:
> "it's the level of vulgarity you'd expect from a guy called S***ov."
> ... and know it's getting personal... -.-
>
> Erez Schatz <moonbuzz@gmail.com <mailto:moonbuzz@gmail.com>> schrieb 
> am Do., 5. Dez. 2019, 11:42:
>
>     it's the level of vulgarity you'd expect from a guy called S***ov.
>
>     But seriously, it's nothing you won't see on basic cable or the
>     Linux Kernel mailing list.
>
>     Erez
>
>     On 12/5/19 12:38 PM, Tom Browder wrote:
>>     On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 03:57 Todd Chester via perl6-users
>>     <perl6-users@perl.org <mailto:perl6-users@perl.org>> wrote
>>     ...
>>
>>         I really like this guys style of writing and examples
>>         for Perl6.
>>
>>         But he can be a bit vulgar at times, which I ignore.
>>         Is he doing it on purpose?
>>
>>
>>     Todd, I took a quick glance at the link you gave and all I saw
>>     was reference to the Brain* language (whose author I believe
>>     should be ashamed of himself for that name--something like
>>     "Braincramp" would have been better).
>>
>>     I have all Andrew's books and read many of his blogs and never
>>     noticed any trend of vulgarity (which, I too, am sensitive to). 
>>     I do see evidence of several Perl and Raku people whose speech
>>     can sometimes be quite crude and blasphemous, but I'm afraid
>>     that's the modern world: good manners and civility have all but
>>     disappeared in public places. I will say, though, that the #Raku
>>     IRC channel has much less coarse lingo and much more kindness
>>     than most other places I visit.
>>
>>     I have had several email conversations with Andrew and he seems
>>     like a nice person to me. I sometimes think non-native English
>>     speakers pick up bad speech habits because of the absolutely
>>     sewer-mouthed "popular" folks on Twitter.
>>
>>     Best regards,
>>
>>     -Tom
>>

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    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  </head>
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    <p>Not in the least, I was just pointing that "vulgarity" is in the
      eye of the beholder. Words are just words. Sometimes they are
      names, other times they are swear words, other times they are just
      text. All in the way you see them.</p>
    <p>Erez<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 05/12/2019 12:58, Tobias Leich
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAJyiL6_tgoo9E05uHwCSQUxB+3tg_6d7KEWFxSUAYJ4g10toPw@mail.gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="auto"><span
          style="font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">"it's
          the level of vulgarity you'd expect from a guy called S***ov."</span>
        <div dir="auto"><span
            style="font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">...
            and know it's getting personal... -.-</span></div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Erez Schatz &lt;<a
            href="mailto:moonbuzz@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">moonbuzz@gmail.com</a>&gt;
          schrieb am Do., 5. Dez. 2019, 11:42:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
          .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
          <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
            <p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">it's the level
                of vulgarity you'd expect from a guy called S***ov.</font></p>
            <p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">But seriously,
                it's nothing you won't see on basic cable or the Linux
                Kernel mailing list.</font></p>
            <p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Erez<br>
              </font></p>
            <div>On 12/5/19 12:38 PM, Tom Browder wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <div>
                <div dir="auto">On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 03:57 Todd
                  Chester via perl6-users &lt;<a
                    href="mailto:perl6-users@perl.org" target="_blank"
                    rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">perl6-users@perl.org</a>&gt;
                  wrote</div>
              </div>
              <div dir="auto">...</div>
              <div>
                <div class="gmail_quote">
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                    .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> I
                    really like this guys style of writing and examples<br>
                    for Perl6.<br>
                    <br>
                    But he can be a bit vulgar at times, which I ignore.<br>
                    Is he doing it on purpose?</blockquote>
                  <div dir="auto"><br>
                  </div>
                  <div dir="auto">Todd, I took a quick glance at the
                    link you gave and all I saw was reference to the
                    Brain* language (whose author I believe should be
                    ashamed of himself for that name--something like
                    "Braincramp" would have been better).</div>
                  <div dir="auto"><br>
                  </div>
                  <div dir="auto">I have all Andrew's books and read
                    many of his blogs and never noticed any trend of
                    vulgarity (which, I too, am sensitive to).  I do see
                    evidence of several Perl and Raku people whose
                    speech can sometimes be quite crude and blasphemous,
                    but I'm afraid that's the modern world: good manners
                    and civility have all but disappeared in public
                    places. I will say, though, that the #Raku IRC
                    channel has much less coarse lingo and much more
                    kindness than most other places I visit.</div>
                  <div dir="auto"><br>
                  </div>
                  <div dir="auto">I have had several email conversations
                    with Andrew and he seems like a nice person to me. I
                    sometimes think non-native English speakers pick up
                    bad speech habits because of the absolutely
                    sewer-mouthed "popular" folks on Twitter.</div>
                  <div dir="auto"><br>
                  </div>
                  <div dir="auto">Best regards,</div>
                  <div dir="auto"><br>
                  </div>
                  <div dir="auto">-Tom</div>
                  <div dir="auto"><br>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
  </body>
</html>

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moonbuzz
12/5/2019 8:01:27 PM
On 2019-12-05 02:38, Tom Browder wrote:
> I have had several email conversations with Andrew and he seems like a 
> nice person to me. I sometimes think non-native English speakers pick up 
> bad speech habits because of the absolutely sewer-mouthed "popular" 
> folks on Twitter.


For a non-native speaker, he sure runs circles around my
native speaking ability.  Kind of humbling.

I am glad this is a not a typical thing for him.  His
writing and examples are really well done.  Not
one sign of IEEE-eese anywhere.  And I perfectly
understand everything he says.  He makes the complex
seem simple.  And that takes talent.

In college, I had several Vietnamese friends that when
they got together and started speaking Vietnamese to
each other, they swore in English like a sailor.  When
I started laughing, I got the "what?" from them.  When
I told them they were swearing in English, they
adamantly denied it.  They did not even realizing
they were.   It was hysterical.

Maybe we could talk him into a re-write of the manual pages?
0
perl6
12/6/2019 6:25:43 AM
On 2019-12-05 03:03, William Michels via perl6-users wrote:
> I trust you'll find Andy Shitov meant no vulgarity on his blog. I've
> been meaning to invite more people via CC: when I send emails to
> perl6-users@perl.org. Your comment gives me an excuse to contact Andy
> so he can tell you that himself.

So "Shitov" is his actual name.  Poor guy probably
gets razed a lot about it from his English speaking
friends.  Hopefully he stays in a good humor about it.
One of those unfortunate translation things like
the planet "Uranus" (Your Anus).

His tutorial is something to behold.  He make the complex
simple and very understandable.  That takes some talent.
Maybe we should talk him into rewriting the IEEE-eese in
the awful manual pages so they can be used as a reference
from those that are not at the developer level?

I do have to admit I do swear at times, but it is usually when
hurt myself or I can't figure out '\'.  (Okay, I know Q[\].
Single quotes do not mean literal in Raku.)  But I seldom
do swear in writing.

      The idea that no gentleman ever swears is all wrong.
      He can swear and still be a gentleman, if he does it
      in a nice and benevolent and affectionate way.

          --Mark Twain  - Private and Public Morals speech, 1906
0
perl6
12/6/2019 6:36:31 AM
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Manual pages (which are reference material) and tutorials are two very
different kinds of writing. Manual pages are usually more difficult to
understand than (good) tutorials, because they have to be *very accurate*
and as complete as possible (if not exhaustive), while tutorials can leave
out some intricacies or gory details.



Le ven. 6 d=C3=A9c. 2019 =C3=A0 07:30, ToddAndMargo via perl6-users <
perl6-users@perl.org> a =C3=A9crit :

> On 2019-12-05 02:38, Tom Browder wrote:
> > I have had several email conversations with Andrew and he seems like a
> > nice person to me. I sometimes think non-native English speakers pick u=
p
> > bad speech habits because of the absolutely sewer-mouthed "popular"
> > folks on Twitter.
>
>
> For a non-native speaker, he sure runs circles around my
> native speaking ability.  Kind of humbling.
>
> I am glad this is a not a typical thing for him.  His
> writing and examples are really well done.  Not
> one sign of IEEE-eese anywhere.  And I perfectly
> understand everything he says.  He makes the complex
> seem simple.  And that takes talent.
>
> In college, I had several Vietnamese friends that when
> they got together and started speaking Vietnamese to
> each other, they swore in English like a sailor.  When
> I started laughing, I got the "what?" from them.  When
> I told them they were swearing in English, they
> adamantly denied it.  They did not even realizing
> they were.   It was hysterical.
>
> Maybe we could talk him into a re-write of the manual pages?
>

--00000000000095c0310599059e42
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Manual pages (which are reference material) and tutor=
ials are two very different kinds of writing. Manual pages are usually more=
 difficult to understand than (good) tutorials, because they have to be *ve=
ry accurate* and as complete as possible (if not exhaustive), while tutoria=
ls can leave out some intricacies or gory details.</div><div><br></div><div=
><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g=
mail_attr">Le=C2=A0ven. 6 d=C3=A9c. 2019 =C3=A0=C2=A007:30, ToddAndMargo vi=
a perl6-users &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:perl6-users@perl.org">perl6-users@perl.=
org</a>&gt; a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex">On 2019-12-05 02:38, Tom Browder wrote:<br>
&gt; I have had several email conversations with Andrew and he seems like a=
 <br>
&gt; nice person to me. I sometimes think non-native English speakers pick =
up <br>
&gt; bad speech habits because of the absolutely sewer-mouthed &quot;popula=
r&quot; <br>
&gt; folks on Twitter.<br>
<br>
<br>
For a non-native speaker, he sure runs circles around my<br>
native speaking ability.=C2=A0 Kind of humbling.<br>
<br>
I am glad this is a not a typical thing for him.=C2=A0 His<br>
writing and examples are really well done.=C2=A0 Not<br>
one sign of IEEE-eese anywhere.=C2=A0 And I perfectly<br>
understand everything he says.=C2=A0 He makes the complex<br>
seem simple.=C2=A0 And that takes talent.<br>
<br>
In college, I had several Vietnamese friends that when<br>
they got together and started speaking Vietnamese to<br>
each other, they swore in English like a sailor.=C2=A0 When<br>
I started laughing, I got the &quot;what?&quot; from them.=C2=A0 When<br>
I told them they were swearing in English, they<br>
adamantly denied it.=C2=A0 They did not even realizing<br>
they were.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It was hysterical.<br>
<br>
Maybe we could talk him into a re-write of the manual pages?<br>
</blockquote></div>

--00000000000095c0310599059e42--
0
perl6
12/6/2019 9:24:54 AM
On 2019-12-06 01:24, Laurent Rosenfeld via perl6-users wrote:
> Manual pages (which are reference material) and tutorials are two very 
> different kinds of writing. Manual pages are usually more difficult to 
> understand than (good) tutorials, because they have to be *very 
> accurate* and as complete as possible (if not exhaustive), while 
> tutorials can leave out some intricacies or gory details.
> 

Hi Laurent,

Definition:  IEEE-eese

     Technical written material that uses so many obscure
     terms and unnecessary technical jargon mixed with
     deliberate obscurities that even a reader with
     intimate knowledge of the subject are confused.
     Example: read any published paper from IEEE.

I have uncovered several booboos in the docs.  I find them
to not be all that accurate either.  I really don't trust
them.  And since they are written in IEEE-eese, booboos are
really hard to spot.

And guys like me are the perfect ones to spot such booboos
as we don't know what to expect and don't think we see what
we see. IEEE-eese put a clamp on that.

And when I do spot them, it is really hard to get a fix
past the bug reporter's guard dog.  You have to argue and
argue and argue.  I don't report a lot of bugs to them
anymore do to this. It is far more effective to report
them here.

Have you seen perldocs for Perl 5?  They contain everything
a developer would need and a wonderful explanation for
the rest of us to use, EVEN ME.  They are beautifully
written.  Perl 5's docs wipe Perl 6's docs faces.

I apologize if I offend anyone, but Perl 6's docs stink.
They need to be readable by both developers and users
alike. They are obviously not.   Perl 5's docs prove this
is possible.

And by the way, the developers have their own set of
specifications.  There is no excuse for writing the Perl
6 docs in IEEE-eese.

-T
0
perl6
12/6/2019 11:03:53 AM
On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 05:04 ToddAndMargo via perl6-users
<perl6-users@perl.org> wrote:
> I have uncovered several booboos in the docs.  I find them
> to not be all that accurate either.  I really don't trust
> them.  And since they are written in IEEE-eese, booboos are
> really hard to spot.
....
> And when I do spot them, it is really hard to get a fix
> past the bug reporter's guard dog.  You have to argue and
> argue and argue.  I don't report a lot of bugs to them
> anymore do to this. It is far more effective to report
> them here.

Todd, arguing via email is almost guaranteed to be fruitless. You need
to learn to use Github and make pull requests (PRs)  for the EXACT
changes you think should be made to the docs. With apologies to you,
sometimes it is difficult for a simple man like me to help when your
code is too complex ("golfed") or incomplete to sort out easily in
your email. Your "keepers" could be a PR for changes to the docs.

Note the Perl docs have been refined, by experts, since the late
1980s, while the Raku docs have been expanding, by individuals with
itches to scratch and varying talents, for probably much less than 20
years.

Best regards,

-Tom
0
tom
12/6/2019 12:19:37 PM

> On 6 Dec 2019, at 13:19, Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> wrote:
> Note the Perl docs have been refined, by experts, since the late
> 1980s, while the Raku docs have been expanding, by individuals with
> itches to scratch and varying talents, for probably much less than 20
> years.

The very first commit (by Moritz Lenz++) to the doc repository is from:

    Date:   Fri Jun 8 17:43:57 2012 +0200

so I would argue, 7.5 years at most!
0
liz
12/6/2019 12:48:22 PM
It has been said that any sound the human voice can utter is rude in
some language.

It is also rather obvious that people who acquire second and
subsequent languages informally tend to learn a very high proportion
of "taboo" expressions. (Possibly because in many cases their
principal source is military, and Mother's not around to say "No dear,
we don't say that".)

Even the most rigourous definitions are made more comprehensible by
clear, correct, examples, but any attempt to make technical writing
anything but utterly moribund encounters a barrage of managerial and
editorial flak, (at least in my experience). I think it's a residue of
academics' attempts to achieve profundity through obscurity.  If it's
clear, it can't be important, (and won't attract grants.)

Project teams tend to acquire a specialised jargon from shared
experiences, which speeds internal communication, but (sometimes
deliberately) excludes non-members. Given that, and an unusually deep
acquaintance with the topic, the people who know most about a piece of
software are probably the least suitable to document it for general
users. They've forgotten what other people don't know. (Their "unknown
unknowns".)
0
1parrota
12/6/2019 5:52:31 PM
On 2019-12-06 04:19, Tom Browder wrote:
> Todd, arguing via email is almost guaranteed to be fruitless. You need
> to learn to use Github and make pull requests (PRs)  for the EXACT
> changes you think should be made to the docs.

Hi Tom,

What makes you think I do not know how to use
the bug reporting system?

I have reported such things before.  It is like
spitting in the wind.  The IEEE-eese stays.
It is the culture and they are not changing it.
If you have hours and hours and hours to spend
arguing with the guard dog, you can get minor
changes made.  If you post to them an example that
your think makes things more understandable, they
tell you to learn the IEEE-eese.  I gave up.

-T
0
perl6
12/6/2019 11:30:43 PM
On 2019-12-06 15:30, ToddAndMargo via perl6-users wrote:
> On 2019-12-06 04:19, Tom Browder wrote:
>> Todd, arguing via email is almost guaranteed to be fruitless. You need=

>> to learn to use Github and make pull requests (PRs)=C2=A0 for the EXAC=
T
>> changes you think should be made to the docs.
>=20
> Hi Tom,
>=20
> What makes you think I do not know how to use
> the bug reporting system?
>=20
> I have reported such things before.=C2=A0 It is like
> spitting in the wind.=C2=A0 The IEEE-eese stays.
> It is the culture and they are not changing it.
> If you have hours and hours and hours to spend
> arguing with the guard dog, you can get minor
> changes made.=C2=A0 If you post to them an example that
> your think makes things more understandable, they
> tell you to learn the IEEE-eese.=C2=A0 I gave up.
>=20
> -T

Oh and not to beat a dead horse, but perl 5's perldocs
wipes raku's docs face.  So it is possible to write
a doc reference that serves both the developer and
the user.  Raku just does not want to.
0
perl6
12/7/2019 12:17:48 AM
On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 17:31 ToddAndMargo via perl6-users
<perl6-users@perl.org> wrote:
>
> On 2019-12-06 04:19, Tom Browder wrote:
> > Todd, arguing via email is almost guaranteed to be fruitless. You need
> > to learn to use Github and make pull requests (PRs)  for the EXACT
> > changes you think should be made to the docs.
....
> Hi Tom,
> What makes you think I do not know how to use
> the bug reporting system?

Todd, a Pull Request is NOT a bug report. YOU get a Github account,
and YOU fork the Raku docs repository and YOU either make changes on
your Github fork via a browser or, better, clone your fork onto your
favorite local host and make desired changes there. Then, when you are
satisfied, you commit your changes, push them to your Github account,
and then submit a Pull Request which lets a member either approve your
changes or suggest something else.

I wish you could get over your aversion to reading what we have in the
docs. For example, one of the first things you should learned, a long
time ago was about the REPL which you just found about today.

The REPL is mentioned in several places, one place a person new to the
language wold be looking:

  On the home page (raku.org), select the "Download" menu tab on the top row.
  In the right column, in the second pane entitled "Introductory
Material", select the "Raku Guide"
  In the "Table of Contents" in the left column, select "1.4, Running Raku Code"

Granted, it isn't shouted out, but if you had looked around the
various pages you would have found it.

Also, if you would find an IRC client and join channel #raku, you
could ask questions AND try out code online while people are watching.

I realize we all don't search for things or learn them the same way,
but goodness knows the folks who have been helping you on this mailing
list have shown great patience in the face of a lot of criticism
without a lot of constructive help from you in return.

Best regards,

-Tom
0
tom
12/7/2019 2:34:16 AM
On 2019-12-06 18:34, Tom Browder wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 17:31 ToddAndMargo via perl6-users
> <perl6-users@perl.org> wrote:
>>
>> On 2019-12-06 04:19, Tom Browder wrote:
>>> Todd, arguing via email is almost guaranteed to be fruitless. You need
>>> to learn to use Github and make pull requests (PRs)  for the EXACT
>>> changes you think should be made to the docs.
> ...
>> Hi Tom,
>> What makes you think I do not know how to use
>> the bug reporting system?
> 
> Todd, a Pull Request is NOT a bug report. YOU get a Github account,
> and YOU fork the Raku docs repository and YOU either make changes on
> your Github fork via a browser or, better, clone your fork onto your
> favorite local host and make desired changes there. Then, when you are
> satisfied, you commit your changes, push them to your Github account,
> and then submit a Pull Request which lets a member either approve your
> changes or suggest something else.

Hi Tom,

I do have a GitHub account and I do occasional use it on
other projects.  And a Pull request and an Enhancement
request on a Bagzilla are a difference without a distinction.

Some projects take requests gracefully and some do not.
Raku does not.  LibreOffice does not either. Fedora
is wonderful about it.

Here is an example of a LibreOffice request opened by me
years ago.  They keep ignoring and ignoring the request
no matter how may people sign on.  Commend 45 rips them
to no end.
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33173#c45

> 
> I wish you could get over your aversion to reading what we have in the
> docs.

I do read them.  If I can get past the IEEE-eese, then
they are useful.  Usually, they are so poorly written
that I have to google around or ask elsewhere to find
an answer. They are really bad compared to Perl 5's docs.

> For example, one of the first things you should learned, a long
> time ago was about the REPL which you just found about today.

REPL is a wonderful tool.  I wish I'd learned about it earlier.
The few times Larry Wall has answered some of my questions,
he has used

$ alias p6
alias p6='perl6 -e'

to show me examples.  If Larry did it that way, I never thought
of doing it another way.

REPL sure gets you out of quoting hell!


> 
> Also, if you would find an IRC client and join channel #raku, you
> could ask questions AND try out code online while people are watching.

I am on that too at times.  There are several that are on Newbie duty 
that are real mensches.

> 
> I realize we all don't search for things or learn them the same way,
> but goodness knows the folks who have been helping you on this mailing
> list have shown great patience in the face of a lot of criticism
> without a lot of constructive help from you in return.

My only criticism is the documentations and I stand by that.
Don't let it hurt your feelings.  It is not intended too.

The people on this group are wonderful.  And when I can I do try to help 
other people.  Plus I ALWAYS feedback to others
who help me and ALWAYS thank them.  As I learn, I will be
able to help more and more.  What goes around comes around.

I really dislike it when you help someone and they never
respond back, so you don't know if your were accurate or not.

Before coming to Raku, I started with Perl 5.  Their
documentation is wonderful.  Their NewGroup is also
very helpful, though much more "course" that this mailing
list.

When I programed in P5, I had a web windows open to their
docs.  Very easy to deal with.  Not so with P6, but I
am beating a dead horse again.

Chuckle,  they are really "grouchy" about Raku.  They
think is is Java.  (P5's subs are a living nightmare.)
Where I like P5, I ADORE Raku. The very moment I saw
P6's sub declarations, I dropped P5 and forced myself
into P6.

Perl (either) is not my first programming language.
I write in "Top Down" and live and die with modules.
Raku is well written for my way of programming.
I adore it.

Did you see my write up on hashes?  JJ caught a booboo.
You catch any?

I am currently working on a module for Windows popups.
I have already posted here my simple Msg substitute.
I will post back when I get it finished.  It will be
a while though.

-T



> 
> Best regards,
> 
> -Tom
> 


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Computers are like air conditioners.
They malfunction when you open windows
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
0
perl6
12/7/2019 5:22:18 AM
> On 7 Dec 2019, at 01:17, ToddAndMargo via perl6-users =
<perl6-users@perl.org> wrote:
> Oh and not to beat a dead horse, but perl 5's perldocs
> wipes raku's docs face.

Now, that is what *I* call vulgar.


> So it is possible to write
> a doc reference that serves both the developer and
> the user.  Raku just does not want to.

Raku is a collection of volunteers.  You seem to be a user of all the =
goodies that Raku brings.  Yet you appear to refuse to contribute to the =
project.  So I'd argue you should be glad at what you get.=
0
liz
12/7/2019 9:37:15 AM
> On 7 Dec 2019, at 00:30, ToddAndMargo via perl6-users =
<perl6-users@perl.org> wrote:
> What makes you think I do not know how to use
> the bug reporting system?

Well, for one you seem to have missed the fact that RT is no longer used =
to report bugs in Rakudo.  So I'd argue, yes, you do appear *not* to =
know how to report bugs.


> I have reported such things before.  It is like
> spitting in the wind.

Again, yet you appear to use Raku, built and maintained by developers, =
but you act like a paying customer complaining about the help desk.  You =
get what you pay for.  If you do not report bugs, the bugs will surely =
stay.  If you *do* report bugs, then *maybe* they'll get fixed.  That's =
the reality.  Deal with it.



> The IEEE-eese stays.
> It is the culture and they are not changing it.

Again, the "they" you are referring to, is a community of *VOLUNTEERS*.


> If you have hours and hours and hours to spend
> arguing with the guard dog, you can get minor
> changes made.

Have you considered the *possibility* that what you want, may not be =
such a good thing after all??


> If you post to them an example that
> your think makes things more understandable, they
> tell you to learn the IEEE-eese.  I gave up.

I don't think you have.=
0
liz
12/7/2019 9:42:14 AM
On 2019-12-07 01:37, Elizabeth Mattijsen wrote:
>> On 7 Dec 2019, at 01:17, ToddAndMargo via perl6-users <perl6-users@perl.org> wrote:
>> Oh and not to beat a dead horse, but perl 5's perldocs
>> wipes raku's docs face.
> 
> Now, that is what *I* call vulgar.

Interesting.  It means it outdoes you by quiet a bit.
Another way of sayig it would be "left you in its
dust".  I don't even want to know what you interpreted
it as.  Maybe there is some translation peculiarity?

> 
> 
>> So it is possible to write
>> a doc reference that serves both the developer and
>> the user.  Raku just does not want to.
> 
> Raku is a collection of volunteers.  You seem to be a user of all the goodies that Raku brings.  Yet you appear to refuse to contribute to the project.  So I'd argue you should be glad at what you get.
> 

How do you figure?

I just don't have the time to put up with the guard dog.
I did try a bit ago and gave up.  You have to argue and
argue and argue.

Other parts, I am happy to contribute were I can. I
am light years behind you, so if you mean development level,
probably not in this lifetime would I catch up to you.

Did I hurt your feeling by saying the docs stink?
Compared to Perl 5's, Perl 6's are really are awful.
0
perl6
12/7/2019 11:26:40 AM
On 2019-12-07 01:42, Elizabeth Mattijsen wrote:
> Well, for one you seem to have missed the fact that RT is no longer used to report bugs in Rakudo.  So I'd argue, yes, you do appear*not*  to know how to report bugs.


I haven't reported any in a while to Perl 6, so I you
won't find any of my stuff on the new reporter.

I take that back.  I did break my rule and report one
over here:

zef requires git
https://github.com/rakudo/star/issues/145

Round and Round and Round we went.  Coke finally
took it seriously.  Learned my lesson though.

As far as reporting bugs, I report bazillions of them
all over the place.

Seems to me I hurt a lot of feelings by slamming the
poor documentation.  It is not my intention.  I
do very much value the help you and other have given
me in the past.
0
perl6
12/7/2019 11:33:15 AM
Reply: