PSC Meeting Notes - 2020-07-21

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All,=20

The "Perl Steering Committee" (PSC) is a group of folks focused on =
moving the Perl programming language forward. We are currently meeting =
via video conference weekly in an attempt to accelerate the process. To =
be transparent, we take meeting notes and post them to the Perl wiki. We =
will also be sending them to the perl5-porters mailing list in the =
future. You can see all previous notes here: =
https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/Past-Perl-Steering-Committee-Meeting-Mi=
nutes =
<https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/Past-Perl-Steering-Committee-Meeting-M=
inutes>

https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21 =
<https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21>
Arrangements

Date: 2020-07-21 13:00 GMT
Location: Zoom
 =
<https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21#attendees>Attendee=
s

Sawyer <https://github.com/xsawyerx>
James Keenan <https://github.com/jkeenan>
Todd Rinaldo <https://github.com/toddr>
H.Merijn Brand <https://github.com/Tux>
Karl Williamson <https://github.com/khwilliamson>
Paul Evans <https://github.com/leonerd>
Nicolas R. <https://github.com/atoomic>
Stuart Mackintosh <https://github.com/StuartJMackintosh>
John Lightsey <https://github.com/lightsey>
Ricardo Signes <https://github.com/rjbs>
Dagfinn Ilmari Manns=C3=A5ker <https://github.com/ilmari>
Tony Cook <https://github.com/tonycoz>
 =
<https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21#meeting-notes>Meet=
ing notes

 =
<https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21#meeting-objectives=
--agenda>Meeting objectives / agenda

Governance review - voting process, quorum
Inclusivity of others
Appointment of secretary to manage arrangements, agenda, and minutes
 =
<https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21#psc-secretary>PSC =
Secretary

Todd nominated as secretary

Responsible for:

preparing the agenda
notifying participants of arrangements
setting up comms
ensuring notes are taken
publishing notes as required
nominating a replacement when unavailable
 =
<https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21#psc-community-advo=
cate>PSC Community advocate

Paul (LeoNerd) will act as community advocate, to solicit community =
feedback for Perl Steering Committee (PSC) consideration.

 =
<https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21#governance-discuss=
ion>Governance Discussion

We agreed early in the meeting that governance needed to be more settled =
before we could meaningfully action and determine language design.

An early discussion centered around how we could address people who were =
not participating on calls for various reasons. The goal of the calls is =
to condense days of asyncronous exchange into a small period of time. =
Sawyer expressed that keeping up with with these conversations on =
complicated topics in asynchronous manner on emails is proving to be =
unproductive - and at some point - unmanageable.

As long as meeting notes continue to be provided and those not joining =
have an opportunity to respond, we agreed that this concern was a =
non-issue. Some language about how many days people should have to =
respond before a decision moves forward needs to be crafted into =
governance.

Another concern was raised about how we could be inclusive of people =
outside of PSC. PSC members are all able to and if possible should seek =
input from people in the wider Perl Community. We reaffirmed the value =
of getting input from anyone, whether attending the meetings or not. =
Paul Evans was nominated to be an official community advocate and =
actively seek out concerns and comments from the community so they could =
be heard and reviewed.

We also discussed how we would address dual life authors who are =
unwilling to accommodate changes to the language over time. If these =
modules choose to bump their version over what the latest Perl ships, =
they can cause wide-spread breakage. This is already a risk and has not =
yet been something that needs to be addressed.

Jim Keenan raised a concern that a critical mass existed for meeting =
attendance where the meeting became unproductive. We briefly discussed =
finding ways to break away issues from the group for detailed =
discussion. The sub-group could then come back with findings.

Voting balance was discussed. Not all votes by PSC members are equal =
votes on all issues. There are Subject Matter Experts (SMEs) who should =
be able to object to an idea in a particular area and potentially kill =
it. Tux inquired about the effect of not voting =
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warnock%27s_dilemma>. Rust has sub-groups =
in different areas of the language: compiler, etc. Debian has Further =
Discussion as an explicit voting option. JD suggested that different =
decisions need different governance. Some are of substance, others =
trivial.

At the end we agreed a best next step might be to produce a governance =
draft we could use as a basis to discuss this further. Notes from the =
first meeting produced this draft terms of reference =
<https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/Perl-Steering-Committee>. The =
governance section will be further developed at the next meeting.

 =
<https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21#respectfully-disag=
reeing>Respectfully disagreeing

There were concerns about some of the language in the current PSC draft =
terms of reference =
<https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/Perl-Steering-Committee> implies =
that joining the committee means you cannot disagree with it.

Sawyer had expressed the importance of genuinely disagreeing and =
challenging proposals, decisions, and positions. There is nothing =
objectionable by also expressing personal opinion that disagrees with a =
proposal, change, or position.

Having said this, we find it important for the PSC to disagree =
respectfully. This is how we challenge each other to achieve the best =
outcome for something we care about. If you have a point to make, you =
should use the established channels or contact the PSC community =
advocate.

This allows the group to address it in the most effective way, working =
together as a core group instead of forming public factions.

Participating in the PSC does not mean you have to agree.
You might find the following guidelines on how to respectfully disagree =
with others useful:

https://universe.byu.edu/2019/10/03/how-to-respectfully-disagree/ =
<https://universe.byu.edu/2019/10/03/how-to-respectfully-disagree/>
=
https://theconversation.com/actually-its-ok-to-disagree-here-are-5-ways-we=
-can-argue-better-121178 =
<https://theconversation.com/actually-its-ok-to-disagree-here-are-5-ways-w=
e-can-argue-better-121178>
=
https://www.thebalancecareers.com/my-15-best-tips-for-successful-disagreem=
ent-1917874 =
<https://www.thebalancecareers.com/my-15-best-tips-for-successful-disagree=
ment-1917874>
 =
<https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21#technical-session>=
Technical session

After the main call, a few folks interested in discussing the =
Devel::PPPort / XS issues with Perl 7 =
<https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/Perl-7,-XS-and-Devel::PPPort> stayed =
back to discuss the current proposal. Paul proposed an alternate =
solution to keep the legacy PERL_REVISION variables by lieing about the =
version unless someone set #define =
I_REALLY_KNOW_HOW_TO_USE_PERL_REVISION, but as we re-wrote the plan to =
incorporate his ideas, the group expressed concern that the alternate =
plan would require tribal knowledge and introduce long term technical =
debt. The plan as it stands emits compiler warnings if the legacy =
variables are used and then can give guidance on the use of the new =
macros which we believe will be what 99% of XS code wants anyway. Tony =
and Paul were still not ok with this plan so Todd offered to follow up =
with them offline and understand their concerns in more detail.

JD pointed out that both Ruby and Python had an interesting interface =
<https://docs.python.org/3/c-api/apiabiversion.html> for their version =
that we might want to consider long term. We also discussed the problem =
that too many files needed to change in order to bump the version of =
Perl. Perhaps we could address this in the long term.

 =
<https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21#action-items-from-=
this-meeting>Action items from this meeting.

Working group to work on a re-factor of the governance section of the =
PSC terms of reference for group review
Stuart is going to produce a first draft
We want to meet an hour earlier next week and only discuss governance
This is an optional session.
Devel::PPPort working group ongoing progress.
 =
<https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21#next-meeting>Next =
meeting

The next meeting will be Next Tuesday July 28 2020 at 13:00 GMT. The =
governance discussion will happen at 12:00 GMT for those who want to =
participate.

 =
<https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21#proposed-agenda--b=
acklog>Proposed agenda / backlog

A brief report from the governance working group
Working group report on Devel::PPPort / XS for Perl 7.
Defaults Working group report
Does anyone have numbers on how the working list of defaults held up to =
CPAN testing?
Unicode strings results (karl really thinks this should be a default in =
Perl 7)
How to disable things and return to v5 defaults when needed. - Feature =
downgrading
use p5
use compat::perl5 (alternative name to "p5")
use v5 (magical v5.0.0 bundle in perl 7?)
Perhaps we should overload use v with less things not more.
discuss the v7 feature bundle
Assuming a short major life cycle, should there be a 7.2 bundle or just =
a 7 bundle?
how does one do use v8 in perl 7? Many don't like v8.
Essentially turns on all feature guards which are planned for 8.
Gives people a preview mode for 8 so they can test.
Configure option when building perl?
Environment variable?
use cool::stuff?
-e / -E discussion
Should -E default to v7? v8?
Most people think -e default to v5 and much code has built up around =
this.
perl -$letter is in short supply.
A reminder: /usr/bin/perl7 doesn't have to be the same thing as =
/usr/bin/perl5
refactor plans for perlpolicy


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">All,&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The "Perl Steering Committee" (PSC) is a group of folks =
focused on moving the Perl programming language forward. We are =
currently meeting via video conference weekly in an attempt to =
accelerate the process. To be transparent, we take meeting notes and =
post them to the Perl wiki. We will also be sending them to the =
perl5-porters mailing list in the future. You can see all previous notes =
here:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/Past-Perl-Steering-Committee-Me=
eting-Minutes" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/Past-Perl-Steering-Committee=
-Meeting-Minutes</a></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, =
0);" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21</a></div=
></div><div class=3D""><h2 style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: =
24px; margin-bottom: 16px; line-height: 1.25; padding-bottom: 0.3em; =
border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; =
border-bottom-color: rgb(234, 236, 239); color: rgb(36, 41, 46); =
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, =
Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI =
Emoji&quot;; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">Arrangements</h2><ul =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; padding-left: 2em; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(36, 41, 46); font-family: -apple-system, =
system-ui, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, =
&quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;; font-size: =
16px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><li style=3D"box-sizing:=
 border-box;" class=3D"">Date: 2020-07-21 13:00 GMT</li><li =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D"">Location:=
 Zoom</li></ul><h2 style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 24px; =
margin-bottom: 16px; line-height: 1.25; padding-bottom: 0.3em; =
border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; =
border-bottom-color: rgb(234, 236, 239); color: rgb(36, 41, 46); =
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, =
Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI =
Emoji&quot;; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><a =
id=3D"user-content-attendees" class=3D"anchor" =
href=3D"https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21#attendees" =
aria-hidden=3D"true" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; background-color: =
initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: none; float: left; =
padding-right: 4px; margin-left: -20px; line-height: 1;"><svg =
class=3D"octicon octicon-link" viewBox=3D"0 0 16 16" version=3D"1.1" =
width=3D"16" height=3D"16" aria-hidden=3D"true"><path =
fill-rule=3D"evenodd" d=3D"M7.775 3.275a.75.75 0 001.06 1.06l1.25-1.25a2 =
2 0 112.83 2.83l-2.5 2.5a2 2 0 01-2.83 0 .75.75 0 00-1.06 1.06 3.5 3.5 0 =
004.95 0l2.5-2.5a3.5 3.5 0 00-4.95-4.95l-1.25 1.25zm-4.69 9.64a2 2 0 =
010-2.83l2.5-2.5a2 2 0 012.83 0 .75.75 0 001.06-1.06 3.5 3.5 0 00-4.95 =
0l-2.5 2.5a3.5 3.5 0 004.95 4.95l1.25-1.25a.75.75 0 00-1.06-1.06l-1.25 =
1.25a2 2 0 01-2.83 0z"></path></svg></a>Attendees</h2><ul =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; padding-left: 2em; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(36, 41, 46); font-family: -apple-system, =
system-ui, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, =
&quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;; font-size: =
16px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><li style=3D"box-sizing:=
 border-box;" class=3D""><a href=3D"https://github.com/xsawyerx" =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; background-color: initial; color: =
rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">Sawyer</a></li><li =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/jkeenan" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
background-color: initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">James Keenan</a></li><li style=3D"box-sizing: =
border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/toddr" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
background-color: initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">Todd Rinaldo</a></li><li style=3D"box-sizing: =
border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/Tux" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
background-color: initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">H.Merijn Brand</a></li><li style=3D"box-sizing: =
border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/khwilliamson" style=3D"box-sizing: =
border-box; background-color: initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">Karl Williamson</a></li><li =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/leonerd" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
background-color: initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">Paul Evans</a></li><li style=3D"box-sizing: =
border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/atoomic" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
background-color: initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">Nicolas R.</a></li><li style=3D"box-sizing: =
border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/StuartJMackintosh" style=3D"box-sizing: =
border-box; background-color: initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">Stuart Mackintosh</a></li><li =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/lightsey" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
background-color: initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">John Lightsey</a></li><li style=3D"box-sizing: =
border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/rjbs" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
background-color: initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">Ricardo Signes</a></li><li style=3D"box-sizing: =
border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ilmari" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
background-color: initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">Dagfinn Ilmari Manns=C3=A5ker</a></li><li =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/tonycoz" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
background-color: initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">Tony Cook</a></li></ul><h1 style=3D"box-sizing: =
border-box; margin: 24px 0px 16px; line-height: 1.25; padding-bottom: =
0.3em; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; =
border-bottom-color: rgb(234, 236, 239); color: rgb(36, 41, 46); =
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, =
Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI =
Emoji&quot;; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><a =
id=3D"user-content-meeting-notes" class=3D"anchor" =
href=3D"https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21#meeting-not=
es" aria-hidden=3D"true" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
background-color: initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: =
none; float: left; padding-right: 4px; margin-left: -20px; line-height: =
1;"><svg class=3D"octicon octicon-link" viewBox=3D"0 0 16 16" =
version=3D"1.1" width=3D"16" height=3D"16" aria-hidden=3D"true"><path =
fill-rule=3D"evenodd" d=3D"M7.775 3.275a.75.75 0 001.06 1.06l1.25-1.25a2 =
2 0 112.83 2.83l-2.5 2.5a2 2 0 01-2.83 0 .75.75 0 00-1.06 1.06 3.5 3.5 0 =
004.95 0l2.5-2.5a3.5 3.5 0 00-4.95-4.95l-1.25 1.25zm-4.69 9.64a2 2 0 =
010-2.83l2.5-2.5a2 2 0 012.83 0 .75.75 0 001.06-1.06 3.5 3.5 0 00-4.95 =
0l-2.5 2.5a3.5 3.5 0 004.95 4.95l1.25-1.25a.75.75 0 00-1.06-1.06l-1.25 =
1.25a2 2 0 01-2.83 0z"></path></svg></a>Meeting notes</h1><h2 =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 24px; margin-bottom: 16px; =
line-height: 1.25; padding-bottom: 0.3em; border-bottom-width: 1px; =
border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(234, 236, 239); =
color: rgb(36, 41, 46); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, =
&quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color =
Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;; font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><a id=3D"user-content-meeting-objectives--agenda" =
class=3D"anchor" =
href=3D"https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21#meeting-obj=
ectives--agenda" aria-hidden=3D"true" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
background-color: initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: =
none; float: left; padding-right: 4px; margin-left: -20px; line-height: =
1;"><svg class=3D"octicon octicon-link" viewBox=3D"0 0 16 16" =
version=3D"1.1" width=3D"16" height=3D"16" aria-hidden=3D"true"><path =
fill-rule=3D"evenodd" d=3D"M7.775 3.275a.75.75 0 001.06 1.06l1.25-1.25a2 =
2 0 112.83 2.83l-2.5 2.5a2 2 0 01-2.83 0 .75.75 0 00-1.06 1.06 3.5 3.5 0 =
004.95 0l2.5-2.5a3.5 3.5 0 00-4.95-4.95l-1.25 1.25zm-4.69 9.64a2 2 0 =
010-2.83l2.5-2.5a2 2 0 012.83 0 .75.75 0 001.06-1.06 3.5 3.5 0 00-4.95 =
0l-2.5 2.5a3.5 3.5 0 004.95 4.95l1.25-1.25a.75.75 0 00-1.06-1.06l-1.25 =
1.25a2 2 0 01-2.83 0z"></path></svg></a>Meeting objectives / =
agenda</h2><ul style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; padding-left: 2em; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(36, 41, 46); =
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, =
Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI =
Emoji&quot;; font-size: 16px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: =
2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><li =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;" class=3D"">Governance review - voting =
process, quorum</li><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: =
0.25em;" class=3D"">Inclusivity of others</li><li style=3D"box-sizing: =
border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D"">Appointment of secretary to =
manage arrangements, agenda, and minutes</li></ul><h2 style=3D"box-sizing:=
 border-box; margin-top: 24px; margin-bottom: 16px; line-height: 1.25; =
padding-bottom: 0.3em; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: =
solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(234, 236, 239); color: rgb(36, 41, 46); =
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, =
Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI =
Emoji&quot;; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><a =
id=3D"user-content-psc-secretary" class=3D"anchor" =
href=3D"https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21#psc-secreta=
ry" aria-hidden=3D"true" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
background-color: initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: =
none; float: left; padding-right: 4px; margin-left: -20px; line-height: =
1;"><svg class=3D"octicon octicon-link" viewBox=3D"0 0 16 16" =
version=3D"1.1" width=3D"16" height=3D"16" aria-hidden=3D"true"><path =
fill-rule=3D"evenodd" d=3D"M7.775 3.275a.75.75 0 001.06 1.06l1.25-1.25a2 =
2 0 112.83 2.83l-2.5 2.5a2 2 0 01-2.83 0 .75.75 0 00-1.06 1.06 3.5 3.5 0 =
004.95 0l2.5-2.5a3.5 3.5 0 00-4.95-4.95l-1.25 1.25zm-4.69 9.64a2 2 0 =
010-2.83l2.5-2.5a2 2 0 012.83 0 .75.75 0 001.06-1.06 3.5 3.5 0 00-4.95 =
0l-2.5 2.5a3.5 3.5 0 004.95 4.95l1.25-1.25a.75.75 0 00-1.06-1.06l-1.25 =
1.25a2 2 0 01-2.83 0z"></path></svg></a>PSC Secretary</h2><p =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; =
color: rgb(36, 41, 46); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, =
&quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color =
Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;; font-size: 16px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">Todd nominated as secretary</p><p =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; =
color: rgb(36, 41, 46); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, =
&quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color =
Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;; font-size: 16px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">Responsible for:</p><ul =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; padding-left: 2em; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(36, 41, 46); font-family: -apple-system, =
system-ui, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, =
&quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;; font-size: =
16px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><li style=3D"box-sizing:=
 border-box;" class=3D"">preparing the agenda</li><li style=3D"box-sizing:=
 border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D"">notifying participants of =
arrangements</li><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: =
0.25em;" class=3D"">setting up comms</li><li style=3D"box-sizing: =
border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D"">ensuring notes are =
taken</li><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" =
class=3D"">publishing notes as required</li><li style=3D"box-sizing: =
border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D"">nominating a replacement =
when unavailable</li></ul><h2 style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
margin-top: 24px; margin-bottom: 16px; line-height: 1.25; =
padding-bottom: 0.3em; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: =
solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(234, 236, 239); color: rgb(36, 41, 46); =
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, =
Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI =
Emoji&quot;; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><a =
id=3D"user-content-psc-community-advocate" class=3D"anchor" =
href=3D"https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21#psc-communi=
ty-advocate" aria-hidden=3D"true" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
background-color: initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: =
none; float: left; padding-right: 4px; margin-left: -20px; line-height: =
1;"><svg class=3D"octicon octicon-link" viewBox=3D"0 0 16 16" =
version=3D"1.1" width=3D"16" height=3D"16" aria-hidden=3D"true"><path =
fill-rule=3D"evenodd" d=3D"M7.775 3.275a.75.75 0 001.06 1.06l1.25-1.25a2 =
2 0 112.83 2.83l-2.5 2.5a2 2 0 01-2.83 0 .75.75 0 00-1.06 1.06 3.5 3.5 0 =
004.95 0l2.5-2.5a3.5 3.5 0 00-4.95-4.95l-1.25 1.25zm-4.69 9.64a2 2 0 =
010-2.83l2.5-2.5a2 2 0 012.83 0 .75.75 0 001.06-1.06 3.5 3.5 0 00-4.95 =
0l-2.5 2.5a3.5 3.5 0 004.95 4.95l1.25-1.25a.75.75 0 00-1.06-1.06l-1.25 =
1.25a2 2 0 01-2.83 0z"></path></svg></a>PSC Community advocate</h2><p =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; =
color: rgb(36, 41, 46); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, =
&quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color =
Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;; font-size: 16px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">Paul (LeoNerd) will act as community =
advocate, to solicit community feedback for Perl Steering Committee =
(PSC) consideration.</p><h2 style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: =
24px; margin-bottom: 16px; line-height: 1.25; padding-bottom: 0.3em; =
border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; =
border-bottom-color: rgb(234, 236, 239); color: rgb(36, 41, 46); =
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, =
Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI =
Emoji&quot;; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><a =
id=3D"user-content-governance-discussion" class=3D"anchor" =
href=3D"https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21#governance-=
discussion" aria-hidden=3D"true" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
background-color: initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: =
none; float: left; padding-right: 4px; margin-left: -20px; line-height: =
1;"><svg class=3D"octicon octicon-link" viewBox=3D"0 0 16 16" =
version=3D"1.1" width=3D"16" height=3D"16" aria-hidden=3D"true"><path =
fill-rule=3D"evenodd" d=3D"M7.775 3.275a.75.75 0 001.06 1.06l1.25-1.25a2 =
2 0 112.83 2.83l-2.5 2.5a2 2 0 01-2.83 0 .75.75 0 00-1.06 1.06 3.5 3.5 0 =
004.95 0l2.5-2.5a3.5 3.5 0 00-4.95-4.95l-1.25 1.25zm-4.69 9.64a2 2 0 =
010-2.83l2.5-2.5a2 2 0 012.83 0 .75.75 0 001.06-1.06 3.5 3.5 0 00-4.95 =
0l-2.5 2.5a3.5 3.5 0 004.95 4.95l1.25-1.25a.75.75 0 00-1.06-1.06l-1.25 =
1.25a2 2 0 01-2.83 0z"></path></svg></a>Governance Discussion</h2><p =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; =
color: rgb(36, 41, 46); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, =
&quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color =
Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;; font-size: 16px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">We agreed early in the meeting that =
governance needed to be more settled before we could meaningfully action =
and determine language design.</p><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(36, 41, 46); =
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, =
Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI =
Emoji&quot;; font-size: 16px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: =
2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">An early =
discussion centered around how we could address people who were not =
participating on calls for various reasons. The goal of the calls is to =
condense days of asyncronous exchange into a small period of time. =
Sawyer expressed that keeping up with with these conversations on =
complicated topics in asynchronous manner on emails is proving to be =
unproductive - and at some point - unmanageable.</p><p =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; =
color: rgb(36, 41, 46); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, =
&quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color =
Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;; font-size: 16px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">As long as meeting notes continue to be =
provided and those not joining have an opportunity to respond, we agreed =
that this concern was a non-issue. Some language about how many days =
people should have to respond before a decision moves forward needs to =
be crafted into governance.</p><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(36, 41, 46); =
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, =
Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI =
Emoji&quot;; font-size: 16px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: =
2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">Another =
concern was raised about how we could be inclusive of people outside of =
PSC. PSC members are all able to and if possible should seek input from =
people in the wider Perl Community. We reaffirmed the value of getting =
input from anyone, whether attending the meetings or not. Paul Evans was =
nominated to be an official community advocate and actively seek out =
concerns and comments from the community so they could be heard and =
reviewed.</p><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(36, 41, 46); font-family: -apple-system, =
system-ui, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, =
&quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;; font-size: =
16px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">We also discussed how =
we would address dual life authors who are unwilling to accommodate =
changes to the language over time. If these modules choose to bump their =
version over what the latest Perl ships, they can cause wide-spread =
breakage. This is already a risk and has not yet been something that =
needs to be addressed.</p><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(36, 41, 46); =
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, =
Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI =
Emoji&quot;; font-size: 16px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: =
2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">Jim =
Keenan raised a concern that a critical mass existed for meeting =
attendance where the meeting became unproductive. We briefly discussed =
finding ways to break away issues from the group for detailed =
discussion. The sub-group could then come back with findings.</p><p =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; =
color: rgb(36, 41, 46); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, =
&quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color =
Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;; font-size: 16px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">Voting balance was discussed. Not all =
votes by PSC members are equal votes on all issues. There are Subject =
Matter Experts (SMEs) who should be able to object to an idea in a =
particular area and potentially kill it. Tux inquired about&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warnock%27s_dilemma" =
rel=3D"nofollow" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; background-color: =
initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">the =
effect of not voting</a>. Rust has sub-groups in different areas of the =
language: compiler, etc. Debian has Further Discussion as an explicit =
voting option. JD suggested that different decisions need different =
governance. Some are of substance, others trivial.</p><p =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; =
color: rgb(36, 41, 46); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, =
&quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color =
Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;; font-size: 16px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">At the end we agreed a best next step =
might be to produce a governance draft we could use as a basis to =
discuss this further. Notes from the first meeting&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/Perl-Steering-Committee" =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; background-color: initial; color: =
rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">produced this draft =
terms of reference</a>. The governance section will be further developed =
at the next meeting.</p><h2 style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: =
24px; margin-bottom: 16px; line-height: 1.25; padding-bottom: 0.3em; =
border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; =
border-bottom-color: rgb(234, 236, 239); color: rgb(36, 41, 46); =
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, =
Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI =
Emoji&quot;; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><a =
id=3D"user-content-respectfully-disagreeing" class=3D"anchor" =
href=3D"https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21#respectfull=
y-disagreeing" aria-hidden=3D"true" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
background-color: initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: =
none; float: left; padding-right: 4px; margin-left: -20px; line-height: =
1;"><svg class=3D"octicon octicon-link" viewBox=3D"0 0 16 16" =
version=3D"1.1" width=3D"16" height=3D"16" aria-hidden=3D"true"><path =
fill-rule=3D"evenodd" d=3D"M7.775 3.275a.75.75 0 001.06 1.06l1.25-1.25a2 =
2 0 112.83 2.83l-2.5 2.5a2 2 0 01-2.83 0 .75.75 0 00-1.06 1.06 3.5 3.5 0 =
004.95 0l2.5-2.5a3.5 3.5 0 00-4.95-4.95l-1.25 1.25zm-4.69 9.64a2 2 0 =
010-2.83l2.5-2.5a2 2 0 012.83 0 .75.75 0 001.06-1.06 3.5 3.5 0 00-4.95 =
0l-2.5 2.5a3.5 3.5 0 004.95 4.95l1.25-1.25a.75.75 0 00-1.06-1.06l-1.25 =
1.25a2 2 0 01-2.83 0z"></path></svg></a>Respectfully disagreeing</h2><p =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; =
color: rgb(36, 41, 46); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, =
&quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color =
Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;; font-size: 16px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">There were concerns about some of the =
language in the&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/Perl-Steering-Committee" =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; background-color: initial; color: =
rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">current PSC draft =
terms of reference</a>&nbsp;implies that joining the committee means you =
cannot disagree with it.</p><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(36, 41, 46); =
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, =
Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI =
Emoji&quot;; font-size: 16px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: =
2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">Sawyer =
had expressed the importance of genuinely disagreeing and challenging =
proposals, decisions, and positions. There is nothing objectionable by =
also expressing personal opinion that disagrees with a proposal, change, =
or position.</p><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(36, 41, 46); font-family: -apple-system, =
system-ui, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, =
&quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;; font-size: =
16px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">Having said this, we =
find it important for the PSC to disagree respectfully. This is how we =
challenge each other to achieve the best outcome for something we care =
about. If you have a point to make, you should use the established =
channels or contact the PSC community advocate.</p><p style=3D"box-sizing:=
 border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(36, 41, =
46); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, =
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe =
UI Emoji&quot;; font-size: 16px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D"">This allows the group to address it in the most effective =
way, working together as a core group instead of forming public =
factions.</p><blockquote style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px =
0px 16px; padding: 0px 1em; color: rgb(106, 115, 125); =
border-left-width: 0.25em; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: =
rgb(223, 226, 229); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, &quot;Segoe =
UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, =
&quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;; font-size: 16px; font-variant-ligatures: =
normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">Participating in the PSC does not mean =
you have to agree.</div></blockquote><p style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(36, 41, 46); =
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, =
Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI =
Emoji&quot;; font-size: 16px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: =
2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">You =
might find the following guidelines on how to respectfully disagree with =
others useful:</p><ul style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; padding-left: =
2em; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(36, 41, 46); =
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, =
Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI =
Emoji&quot;; font-size: 16px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: =
2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><li =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://universe.byu.edu/2019/10/03/how-to-respectfully-disagree/"=
 rel=3D"nofollow" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; background-color: =
initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: none;" =
class=3D"">https://universe.byu.edu/2019/10/03/how-to-respectfully-disagre=
e/</a></li><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://theconversation.com/actually-its-ok-to-disagree-here-are-5=
-ways-we-can-argue-better-121178" rel=3D"nofollow" style=3D"box-sizing: =
border-box; background-color: initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); =
text-decoration: none;" =
class=3D"">https://theconversation.com/actually-its-ok-to-disagree-here-ar=
e-5-ways-we-can-argue-better-121178</a></li><li style=3D"box-sizing: =
border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.thebalancecareers.com/my-15-best-tips-for-successful-d=
isagreement-1917874" rel=3D"nofollow" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
background-color: initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: =
none;" =
class=3D"">https://www.thebalancecareers.com/my-15-best-tips-for-successfu=
l-disagreement-1917874</a></li></ul><h2 style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
margin-top: 24px; margin-bottom: 16px; line-height: 1.25; =
padding-bottom: 0.3em; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: =
solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(234, 236, 239); color: rgb(36, 41, 46); =
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, =
Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI =
Emoji&quot;; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><a =
id=3D"user-content-technical-session" class=3D"anchor" =
href=3D"https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21#technical-s=
ession" aria-hidden=3D"true" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
background-color: initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: =
none; float: left; padding-right: 4px; margin-left: -20px; line-height: =
1;"><svg class=3D"octicon octicon-link" viewBox=3D"0 0 16 16" =
version=3D"1.1" width=3D"16" height=3D"16" aria-hidden=3D"true"><path =
fill-rule=3D"evenodd" d=3D"M7.775 3.275a.75.75 0 001.06 1.06l1.25-1.25a2 =
2 0 112.83 2.83l-2.5 2.5a2 2 0 01-2.83 0 .75.75 0 00-1.06 1.06 3.5 3.5 0 =
004.95 0l2.5-2.5a3.5 3.5 0 00-4.95-4.95l-1.25 1.25zm-4.69 9.64a2 2 0 =
010-2.83l2.5-2.5a2 2 0 012.83 0 .75.75 0 001.06-1.06 3.5 3.5 0 00-4.95 =
0l-2.5 2.5a3.5 3.5 0 004.95 4.95l1.25-1.25a.75.75 0 00-1.06-1.06l-1.25 =
1.25a2 2 0 01-2.83 0z"></path></svg></a>Technical session</h2><p =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; =
color: rgb(36, 41, 46); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, =
&quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color =
Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;; font-size: 16px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">After the main call, a few folks =
interested in discussing the&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/Perl-7,-XS-and-Devel::PPPort" =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; background-color: initial; color: =
rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">Devel::PPPort / XS =
issues with Perl 7</a>&nbsp;stayed back to discuss the current proposal. =
Paul proposed an alternate solution to keep the legacy&nbsp;<code =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; font-family: SFMono-Regular, Consolas, =
&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;, Menlo, monospace; font-size: 13.6px; =
padding: 0.2em 0.4em; margin: 0px; background-color: rgba(27, 31, 35, =
0.05); border-radius: 6px;" class=3D"">PERL_REVISION</code>&nbsp;variables=
 by lieing about the version unless someone set&nbsp;<code =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; font-family: SFMono-Regular, Consolas, =
&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;, Menlo, monospace; font-size: 13.6px; =
padding: 0.2em 0.4em; margin: 0px; background-color: rgba(27, 31, 35, =
0.05); border-radius: 6px;" class=3D"">#define =
I_REALLY_KNOW_HOW_TO_USE_PERL_REVISION</code>, but as we re-wrote the =
plan to incorporate his ideas, the group expressed concern that the =
alternate plan would require tribal knowledge and introduce long term =
technical debt. The plan as it stands emits compiler warnings if the =
legacy variables are used and then can give guidance on the use of the =
new macros which we believe will be what 99% of XS code wants anyway. =
Tony and Paul were still not ok with this plan so Todd offered to follow =
up with them offline and understand their concerns in more detail.</p><p =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; =
color: rgb(36, 41, 46); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, =
&quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color =
Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;; font-size: 16px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">JD pointed out that both Ruby and Python =
had an&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://docs.python.org/3/c-api/apiabiversion.html"=
 rel=3D"nofollow" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; background-color: =
initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: none;" =
class=3D"">interesting interface</a>&nbsp;for their version that we =
might want to consider long term. We also discussed the problem that too =
many files needed to change in order to bump the version of Perl. =
Perhaps we could address this in the long term.</p><h1 =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin: 24px 0px 16px; line-height: =
1.25; padding-bottom: 0.3em; border-bottom-width: 1px; =
border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(234, 236, 239); =
color: rgb(36, 41, 46); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, =
&quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color =
Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;; font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><a id=3D"user-content-action-items-from-this-meeting" =
class=3D"anchor" =
href=3D"https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21#action-item=
s-from-this-meeting" aria-hidden=3D"true" style=3D"box-sizing: =
border-box; background-color: initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); =
text-decoration: none; float: left; padding-right: 4px; margin-left: =
-20px; line-height: 1;"><svg class=3D"octicon octicon-link" viewBox=3D"0 =
0 16 16" version=3D"1.1" width=3D"16" height=3D"16" =
aria-hidden=3D"true"><path fill-rule=3D"evenodd" d=3D"M7.775 =
3.275a.75.75 0 001.06 1.06l1.25-1.25a2 2 0 112.83 2.83l-2.5 2.5a2 2 0 =
01-2.83 0 .75.75 0 00-1.06 1.06 3.5 3.5 0 004.95 0l2.5-2.5a3.5 3.5 0 =
00-4.95-4.95l-1.25 1.25zm-4.69 9.64a2 2 0 010-2.83l2.5-2.5a2 2 0 012.83 =
0 .75.75 0 001.06-1.06 3.5 3.5 0 00-4.95 0l-2.5 2.5a3.5 3.5 0 004.95 =
4.95l1.25-1.25a.75.75 0 00-1.06-1.06l-1.25 1.25a2 2 0 01-2.83 =
0z"></path></svg></a>Action items from this meeting.</h1><ul =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; padding-left: 2em; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 16px; color: rgb(36, 41, 46); font-family: -apple-system, =
system-ui, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, =
&quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;; font-size: =
16px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><li style=3D"box-sizing:=
 border-box;" class=3D"">Working group to work on a re-factor of the =
governance section of the PSC terms of reference for group review<ul =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; padding-left: 2em; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D""><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;" =
class=3D"">Stuart is going to produce a first draft</li><li =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D"">We want =
to meet an hour earlier next week and only discuss governance</li><li =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D"">This is =
an optional session.</li></ul></li><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D"">Devel::PPPort working group ongoing =
progress.</li></ul><h1 style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin: 24px 0px =
16px; line-height: 1.25; padding-bottom: 0.3em; border-bottom-width: =
1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(234, 236, =
239); color: rgb(36, 41, 46); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, =
&quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color =
Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;; font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><a id=3D"user-content-next-meeting" class=3D"anchor" =
href=3D"https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21#next-meetin=
g" aria-hidden=3D"true" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
background-color: initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: =
none; float: left; padding-right: 4px; margin-left: -20px; line-height: =
1;"><svg class=3D"octicon octicon-link" viewBox=3D"0 0 16 16" =
version=3D"1.1" width=3D"16" height=3D"16" aria-hidden=3D"true"><path =
fill-rule=3D"evenodd" d=3D"M7.775 3.275a.75.75 0 001.06 1.06l1.25-1.25a2 =
2 0 112.83 2.83l-2.5 2.5a2 2 0 01-2.83 0 .75.75 0 00-1.06 1.06 3.5 3.5 0 =
004.95 0l2.5-2.5a3.5 3.5 0 00-4.95-4.95l-1.25 1.25zm-4.69 9.64a2 2 0 =
010-2.83l2.5-2.5a2 2 0 012.83 0 .75.75 0 001.06-1.06 3.5 3.5 0 00-4.95 =
0l-2.5 2.5a3.5 3.5 0 004.95 4.95l1.25-1.25a.75.75 0 00-1.06-1.06l-1.25 =
1.25a2 2 0 01-2.83 0z"></path></svg></a>Next meeting</h1><p =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 16px; =
color: rgb(36, 41, 46); font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, =
&quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color =
Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;; font-size: 16px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">The next meeting will be Next Tuesday =
July 28 2020 at 13:00 GMT. The governance discussion will happen at =
12:00 GMT for those who want to participate.</p><h2 style=3D"box-sizing: =
border-box; margin-top: 24px; margin-bottom: 16px; line-height: 1.25; =
padding-bottom: 0.3em; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: =
solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(234, 236, 239); color: rgb(36, 41, 46); =
font-family: -apple-system, system-ui, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, =
Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI =
Emoji&quot;; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><a =
id=3D"user-content-proposed-agenda--backlog" class=3D"anchor" =
href=3D"https://github.com/Perl/perl5/wiki/SC-Notes-2020-07-21#proposed-ag=
enda--backlog" aria-hidden=3D"true" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
background-color: initial; color: rgb(3, 102, 214); text-decoration: =
none; float: left; padding-right: 4px; margin-left: -20px; line-height: =
1;"><svg class=3D"octicon octicon-link" viewBox=3D"0 0 16 16" =
version=3D"1.1" width=3D"16" height=3D"16" aria-hidden=3D"true"><path =
fill-rule=3D"evenodd" d=3D"M7.775 3.275a.75.75 0 001.06 1.06l1.25-1.25a2 =
2 0 112.83 2.83l-2.5 2.5a2 2 0 01-2.83 0 .75.75 0 00-1.06 1.06 3.5 3.5 0 =
004.95 0l2.5-2.5a3.5 3.5 0 00-4.95-4.95l-1.25 1.25zm-4.69 9.64a2 2 0 =
010-2.83l2.5-2.5a2 2 0 012.83 0 .75.75 0 001.06-1.06 3.5 3.5 0 00-4.95 =
0l-2.5 2.5a3.5 3.5 0 004.95 4.95l1.25-1.25a.75.75 0 00-1.06-1.06l-1.25 =
1.25a2 2 0 01-2.83 0z"></path></svg></a>Proposed agenda / =
backlog</h2><ul style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; padding-left: 2em; =
margin-top: 0px; color: rgb(36, 41, 46); font-family: -apple-system, =
system-ui, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, =
&quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;; font-size: =
16px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom: 0px !important;" =
class=3D""><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;" class=3D"">A brief =
report from the governance working group</li><li style=3D"box-sizing: =
border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D"">Working group report on =
Devel::PPPort / XS for Perl 7.</li><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D"">Defaults Working group report<ul =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; padding-left: 2em; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D""><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;" =
class=3D"">Does anyone have numbers on how the working list of defaults =
held up to CPAN testing?</li><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D"">Unicode strings results (karl really =
thinks this should be a default in Perl 7)</li></ul></li><li =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D"">How to =
disable things and return to v5 defaults when needed. - Feature =
downgrading<ul style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; padding-left: 2em; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D""><li style=3D"box-sizing: =
border-box;" class=3D"">use p5</li><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D"">use compat::perl5 (alternative name to =
"p5")</li><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" =
class=3D"">use v5 (magical v5.0.0 bundle in perl 7?)<ul =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; padding-left: 2em; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D""><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;" =
class=3D"">Perhaps we should overload use v with less things not =
more.</li></ul></li></ul></li><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D"">discuss the v7 feature bundle<ul =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; padding-left: 2em; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D""><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;" =
class=3D"">Assuming a short major life cycle, should there be a 7.2 =
bundle or just a 7 bundle?</li><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D"">how does one do use v8 in perl 7? Many =
don't like v8.<ul style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; padding-left: 2em; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D""><li style=3D"box-sizing: =
border-box;" class=3D"">Essentially turns on all feature guards which =
are planned for 8.</li><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: =
0.25em;" class=3D"">Gives people a preview mode for 8 so they can =
test.</li><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" =
class=3D"">Configure option when building perl?</li><li =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" =
class=3D"">Environment variable?</li><li style=3D"box-sizing: =
border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D"">use =
cool::stuff?</li></ul></li></ul></li><li style=3D"box-sizing: =
border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D"">-e / -E discussion<ul =
style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; padding-left: 2em; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D""><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box;" =
class=3D"">Should -E default to v7? v8?</li><li style=3D"box-sizing: =
border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D"">Most people think -e default =
to v5 and much code has built up around this.</li><li style=3D"box-sizing:=
 border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D"">perl -$letter is in short =
supply.</li><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0.25em;" =
class=3D"">A reminder: /usr/bin/perl7 doesn't have to be the same thing =
as /usr/bin/perl5</li></ul></li><li style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
margin-top: 0.25em;" class=3D"">refactor plans for =
perlpolicy</li></ul><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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toddr
7/23/2020 6:40:50 PM
perl.perl5.porters 48155 articles. 1 followers. Follow

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