To use signatures or not to use?

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Dear all,

Perl now has subroutine signatures. However, they are marked as
experimental feature.
As I really like it, I'm always tempted to use it.
On the other hand, I don't want to wast efforts to something I have to roll
back.

So, does anyone know the tendency if signatures are going to stay?

I'm not looking for the standard "do if you want to do it because
TIMTOWTDI" answer, it will not help me. I'm looking for rumors, or
eventually an assessment from the people who did the feature?

Best regards,
Alex

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>Dear all,<br><br></div>=
Perl now has subroutine signatures. However, they are marked as experimenta=
l feature. <br></div>As I really like it, I&#39;m always tempted to use it.=
 <br></div>On the other hand, I don&#39;t want to wast efforts to something=
 I have to roll back.<br><br></div>So, does anyone know the tendency if sig=
natures are going to stay?<br></div><br>I&#39;m not looking for the standar=
d &quot;do if you want to do it because TIMTOWTDI&quot; answer, it will not=
 help me. I&#39;m looking for rumors, or eventually an assessment from the =
people who did the feature?<br><br></div>Best regards,<br></div>Alex<br></d=
iv>

--001a11c3871a8a8fe2051b7b8b18--
0
asb
7/22/2015 7:11:59 PM
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On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 09:11:59PM +0200, Alex Becker wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> Perl now has subroutine signatures. However, they are marked as
> experimental feature.
> As I really like it, I'm always tempted to use it.
> On the other hand, I don't want to wast efforts to something I have to roll
> back.
> 
> So, does anyone know the tendency if signatures are going to stay?
> 
> I'm not looking for the standard "do if you want to do it because
> TIMTOWTDI" answer, it will not help me. I'm looking for rumors, or
> eventually an assessment from the people who did the feature?

Rumours, I can do.  Or perhaps start.

The signatures are nice.  I have used them on a shortish, ~1000 line
script and I have been mostly happy with them.  They save a lot of
boilerplate.

There was one small change I needed to make between 5.20 and 5.22
because the ordering with respect to prototypes changed.

I also noted that some error messages were less accurate than before,
though I haven't had time to narrow that down into a proper bug report.

My best guess is that the feature will remain and there will be small
changes before it is brought out of experimental status.

But there might be larger changes that wouldn't be completely backwards
compatible.  Or the feature may be completely scrapped.  That's the risk
you take with experimental features.  But there is certainly a will to
make this feature stick.

-- 
Paul Johnson - paul@pjcj.net
http://www.pjcj.net
0
paul
7/22/2015 7:45:03 PM
On 23 July 2015 at 07:11, Alex Becker <asb.cpan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Perl now has subroutine signatures. However, they are marked as experimental
> feature.
> As I really like it, I'm always tempted to use it.
> On the other hand, I don't want to wast efforts to something I have to roll
> back.
>
> So, does anyone know the tendency if signatures are going to stay?


It depends who your userbase is.

If your user base is narrow and you have full control over what
version of Perl will be used all the way though deployment, and you
can guarantee you'll never need to downgrade to an earlier perl to get
around a problem, then you can use whatever features you like in the
newest perl you like.

But if you're writing modules with the intent on somebody else using
them ( such as publishing to CPAN ), you may wish to be less casual
about signatures, because they ( for now at least ) can arbitrarily
limit your audience of usefulness.

Obviously your modules will be less useful for users who are stuck on
old versions of perl and have no way of upgrading even if they wanted
to =).

But its ultimately your choice, and if you don't care about that
audience, then you don't have to pander to it.


-- 
Kent

KENTNL - https://metacpan.org/author/KENTNL
0
kentfredric
7/22/2015 8:18:20 PM
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 3:11 PM, Alex Becker <asb.cpan@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Perl now has subroutine signatures. However, they are marked as experimental
> feature.
> As I really like it, I'm always tempted to use it.
> On the other hand, I don't want to wast efforts to something I have to roll
> back.
>
> So, does anyone know the tendency if signatures are going to stay?
>
> I'm not looking for the standard "do if you want to do it because TIMTOWTDI"
> answer, it will not help me. I'm looking for rumors, or eventually an
> assessment from the people who did the feature?

This is either the first I've heard of this or I just drink too much.
One thing that I notice is that the "Signatures" section seems quite
early and long in the perlsub documentation for such an experimental
and new feature. I know that when I first learned Perl (which was 5.x)
I did so largely by reading the core perldocs almost like a tutorial.
Reading the perlsub now I might quickly forget that signatures are
experimental after glossing over the warning and relating the sizable
signatures documentation to other languages. A beginner to Perl might
consider that the norm or recommended option (after their nightly beer
erases the whole "experimental" disclaimer). It seems to me that
"Signatures" should be towards the end (I mean, do experienced Perl
programmers go to these core documents to discover new features or
hear about them from mailing lists and the like and then look them up
explicitly as I did!?).

As for rumors, this is the first that I've heard of it, but it sounds
like a relatively safe feature to use assuming they haven't overlooked
anything critical in terms of parsing the signature from the language.
And I can't imagine anything that would break it. It's probably safe
assuming you can require such a modern perl.

Regards,


-- 
Brandon McCaig <bamccaig@gmail.com> <bamccaig@castopulence.org>
Castopulence Software <https://www.castopulence.org/>
Blog <http://www.bambams.ca/>
perl -E '$_=q{V zrna gur orfg jvgu jung V fnl. }.
q{Vg qbrfa'\''g nyjnlf fbhaq gung jnl.};
tr/A-Ma-mN-Zn-z/N-Zn-zA-Ma-m/;say'
0
bamccaig
7/23/2015 1:11:08 AM
--20cf307d045480135a051b880394
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

I think that if you're considering using signatures make sure you read this
first

http://www.effectiveperlprogramming.com/2015/04/use-v5-20-subroutine-signatures/

The bottom line is that they're experimental so you should expect that your
code will need some modifications as new Perl releases come out.

Choosing whether to use signatures should therefore be determined by the
how rigorous your release testing is,  and how critical the dependencies
are.

Andrew


On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 2:11 AM, Brandon McCaig <bamccaig@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 3:11 PM, Alex Becker <asb.cpan@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Dear all,
> >
> > Perl now has subroutine signatures. However, they are marked as
> experimental
> > feature.
> > As I really like it, I'm always tempted to use it.
> > On the other hand, I don't want to wast efforts to something I have to
> roll
> > back.
> >
> > So, does anyone know the tendency if signatures are going to stay?
> >
> > I'm not looking for the standard "do if you want to do it because
> TIMTOWTDI"
> > answer, it will not help me. I'm looking for rumors, or eventually an
> > assessment from the people who did the feature?
>
> This is either the first I've heard of this or I just drink too much.
> One thing that I notice is that the "Signatures" section seems quite
> early and long in the perlsub documentation for such an experimental
> and new feature. I know that when I first learned Perl (which was 5.x)
> I did so largely by reading the core perldocs almost like a tutorial.
> Reading the perlsub now I might quickly forget that signatures are
> experimental after glossing over the warning and relating the sizable
> signatures documentation to other languages. A beginner to Perl might
> consider that the norm or recommended option (after their nightly beer
> erases the whole "experimental" disclaimer). It seems to me that
> "Signatures" should be towards the end (I mean, do experienced Perl
> programmers go to these core documents to discover new features or
> hear about them from mailing lists and the like and then look them up
> explicitly as I did!?).
>
> As for rumors, this is the first that I've heard of it, but it sounds
> like a relatively safe feature to use assuming they haven't overlooked
> anything critical in terms of parsing the signature from the language.
> And I can't imagine anything that would break it. It's probably safe
> assuming you can require such a modern perl.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> --
> Brandon McCaig <bamccaig@gmail.com> <bamccaig@castopulence.org>
> Castopulence Software <https://www.castopulence.org/>
> Blog <http://www.bambams.ca/>
> perl -E '$_=q{V zrna gur orfg jvgu jung V fnl. }.
> q{Vg qbrfa'\''g nyjnlf fbhaq gung jnl.};
> tr/A-Ma-mN-Zn-z/N-Zn-zA-Ma-m/;say'
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: beginners-unsubscribe@perl.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: beginners-help@perl.org
> http://learn.perl.org/
>
>
>


-- 
Andrew Solomon

Mentor@Geekuni http://geekuni.com/
http://www.linkedin.com/in/asolomon

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<div dir=3D"ltr">I think that if you&#39;re considering using signatures ma=
ke sure you read this first<div><br></div><div><a href=3D"http://www.effect=
iveperlprogramming.com/2015/04/use-v5-20-subroutine-signatures/">http://www=
..effectiveperlprogramming.com/2015/04/use-v5-20-subroutine-signatures/</a><=
br></div><div><br></div><div>The bottom line is that they&#39;re experiment=
al so you should expect that your code will need some modifications as new =
Perl releases come out.</div><div><br></div><div>Choosing whether to use si=
gnatures should therefore be determined by the how rigorous your release te=
sting is, =C2=A0and how critical the dependencies are.</div><div><br></div>=
<div>Andrew</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 2:11 AM, Brandon McCaig <span =
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bamccaig@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bam=
ccaig@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><sp=
an class=3D"">On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 3:11 PM, Alex Becker &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:asb.cpan@gmail.com">asb.cpan@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; Dear all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Perl now has subroutine signatures. However, they are marked as experi=
mental<br>
&gt; feature.<br>
&gt; As I really like it, I&#39;m always tempted to use it.<br>
&gt; On the other hand, I don&#39;t want to wast efforts to something I hav=
e to roll<br>
&gt; back.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; So, does anyone know the tendency if signatures are going to stay?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I&#39;m not looking for the standard &quot;do if you want to do it bec=
ause TIMTOWTDI&quot;<br>
&gt; answer, it will not help me. I&#39;m looking for rumors, or eventually=
 an<br>
&gt; assessment from the people who did the feature?<br>
<br>
</span>This is either the first I&#39;ve heard of this or I just drink too =
much.<br>
One thing that I notice is that the &quot;Signatures&quot; section seems qu=
ite<br>
early and long in the perlsub documentation for such an experimental<br>
and new feature. I know that when I first learned Perl (which was 5.x)<br>
I did so largely by reading the core perldocs almost like a tutorial.<br>
Reading the perlsub now I might quickly forget that signatures are<br>
experimental after glossing over the warning and relating the sizable<br>
signatures documentation to other languages. A beginner to Perl might<br>
consider that the norm or recommended option (after their nightly beer<br>
erases the whole &quot;experimental&quot; disclaimer). It seems to me that<=
br>
&quot;Signatures&quot; should be towards the end (I mean, do experienced Pe=
rl<br>
programmers go to these core documents to discover new features or<br>
hear about them from mailing lists and the like and then look them up<br>
explicitly as I did!?).<br>
<br>
As for rumors, this is the first that I&#39;ve heard of it, but it sounds<b=
r>
like a relatively safe feature to use assuming they haven&#39;t overlooked<=
br>
anything critical in terms of parsing the signature from the language.<br>
And I can&#39;t imagine anything that would break it. It&#39;s probably saf=
e<br>
assuming you can require such a modern perl.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
--<br>
Brandon McCaig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bamccaig@gmail.com">bamccaig@gmail.com=
</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bamccaig@castopulence.org">bamccaig@castopul=
ence.org</a>&gt;<br>
Castopulence Software &lt;<a href=3D"https://www.castopulence.org/" rel=3D"=
noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.castopulence.org/</a>&gt;<br>
Blog &lt;<a href=3D"http://www.bambams.ca/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://www.bambams.ca/</a>&gt;<br>
perl -E &#39;$_=3Dq{V zrna gur orfg jvgu jung V fnl. }.<br>
q{Vg qbrfa&#39;\&#39;&#39;g nyjnlf fbhaq gung jnl.};<br>
tr/A-Ma-mN-Zn-z/N-Zn-zA-Ma-m/;say&#39;<br>
</font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
--<br>
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <a href=3D"mailto:beginners-unsubscribe@perl.org">b=
eginners-unsubscribe@perl.org</a><br>
For additional commands, e-mail: <a href=3D"mailto:beginners-help@perl.org"=
>beginners-help@perl.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://learn.perl.org/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://learn.perl.org/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">Andrew Solomon<div><br></di=
v><div>Mentor@Geekuni=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://geekuni.com/" target=3D"_blank=
">http://geekuni.com/</a></div><div><a href=3D"http://www.linkedin.com/in/a=
solomon" target=3D"_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/in/asolomon</a><br></div=
></div></div>
</div>

--20cf307d045480135a051b880394--
0
andrew
7/23/2015 10:04:31 AM
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Hi all,

thank you for the valuable feedback.

I guess I will have to fall for the secure side and not using signatures at
the moment.
Although I do have control over the build system, I do not want to cap the
Perl version, not allowing to use a new version anytime soon (in the worst
case).

Hopefully, signatures will be non-experimental soon. I'm really looking
forward to get rid of boilerplate code.

Best regards,
Alex

2015-07-23 12:04 GMT+02:00 Andrew Solomon <andrew@geekuni.com>:

> I think that if you're considering using signatures make sure you read
> this first
>
>
> http://www.effectiveperlprogramming.com/2015/04/use-v5-20-subroutine-signatures/
>
> The bottom line is that they're experimental so you should expect that
> your code will need some modifications as new Perl releases come out.
>
> Choosing whether to use signatures should therefore be determined by the
> how rigorous your release testing is,  and how critical the dependencies
> are.
>
> Andrew
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 2:11 AM, Brandon McCaig <bamccaig@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 3:11 PM, Alex Becker <asb.cpan@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Dear all,
>> >
>> > Perl now has subroutine signatures. However, they are marked as
>> experimental
>> > feature.
>> > As I really like it, I'm always tempted to use it.
>> > On the other hand, I don't want to wast efforts to something I have to
>> roll
>> > back.
>> >
>> > So, does anyone know the tendency if signatures are going to stay?
>> >
>> > I'm not looking for the standard "do if you want to do it because
>> TIMTOWTDI"
>> > answer, it will not help me. I'm looking for rumors, or eventually an
>> > assessment from the people who did the feature?
>>
>> This is either the first I've heard of this or I just drink too much.
>> One thing that I notice is that the "Signatures" section seems quite
>> early and long in the perlsub documentation for such an experimental
>> and new feature. I know that when I first learned Perl (which was 5.x)
>> I did so largely by reading the core perldocs almost like a tutorial.
>> Reading the perlsub now I might quickly forget that signatures are
>> experimental after glossing over the warning and relating the sizable
>> signatures documentation to other languages. A beginner to Perl might
>> consider that the norm or recommended option (after their nightly beer
>> erases the whole "experimental" disclaimer). It seems to me that
>> "Signatures" should be towards the end (I mean, do experienced Perl
>> programmers go to these core documents to discover new features or
>> hear about them from mailing lists and the like and then look them up
>> explicitly as I did!?).
>>
>> As for rumors, this is the first that I've heard of it, but it sounds
>> like a relatively safe feature to use assuming they haven't overlooked
>> anything critical in terms of parsing the signature from the language.
>> And I can't imagine anything that would break it. It's probably safe
>> assuming you can require such a modern perl.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>> --
>> Brandon McCaig <bamccaig@gmail.com> <bamccaig@castopulence.org>
>> Castopulence Software <https://www.castopulence.org/>
>> Blog <http://www.bambams.ca/>
>> perl -E '$_=q{V zrna gur orfg jvgu jung V fnl. }.
>> q{Vg qbrfa'\''g nyjnlf fbhaq gung jnl.};
>> tr/A-Ma-mN-Zn-z/N-Zn-zA-Ma-m/;say'
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: beginners-unsubscribe@perl.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: beginners-help@perl.org
>> http://learn.perl.org/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Andrew Solomon
>
> Mentor@Geekuni http://geekuni.com/
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/asolomon
>

--047d7b874d827eb828051b892f65
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div>Hi all,<br><br></div>thank y=
ou for the valuable feedback.<br></div><br>I guess I will have to fall for =
the secure side and not using signatures at the moment. <br></div>Although
 I do have control over the build system, I do not want to cap the Perl=20
version, not allowing to use a new version anytime soon (in the worst=20
case).<br><br></div>Hopefully, signatures will be non-experimental soon. I&=
#39;m really looking forward to get rid of boilerplate code.<br><br></div>B=
est regards,<br></div>Alex</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">2015-07-23 12:04 GMT+02:00 Andrew Solomon <span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andrew@geekuni.com" target=3D"_blank">andrew@geekun=
i.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">I =
think that if you&#39;re considering using signatures make sure you read th=
is first<div><br></div><div><a href=3D"http://www.effectiveperlprogramming.=
com/2015/04/use-v5-20-subroutine-signatures/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.=
effectiveperlprogramming.com/2015/04/use-v5-20-subroutine-signatures/</a><b=
r></div><div><br></div><div>The bottom line is that they&#39;re experimenta=
l so you should expect that your code will need some modifications as new P=
erl releases come out.</div><div><br></div><div>Choosing whether to use sig=
natures should therefore be determined by the how rigorous your release tes=
ting is, =C2=A0and how critical the dependencies are.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Andrew</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 2:11 AM, Brandon McCaig <span d=
ir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bamccaig@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bamc=
caig@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div=
><div class=3D"h5"><span>On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 3:11 PM, Alex Becker &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:asb.cpan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">asb.cpan@gmail.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; Dear all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Perl now has subroutine signatures. However, they are marked as experi=
mental<br>
&gt; feature.<br>
&gt; As I really like it, I&#39;m always tempted to use it.<br>
&gt; On the other hand, I don&#39;t want to wast efforts to something I hav=
e to roll<br>
&gt; back.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; So, does anyone know the tendency if signatures are going to stay?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I&#39;m not looking for the standard &quot;do if you want to do it bec=
ause TIMTOWTDI&quot;<br>
&gt; answer, it will not help me. I&#39;m looking for rumors, or eventually=
 an<br>
&gt; assessment from the people who did the feature?<br>
<br>
</span>This is either the first I&#39;ve heard of this or I just drink too =
much.<br>
One thing that I notice is that the &quot;Signatures&quot; section seems qu=
ite<br>
early and long in the perlsub documentation for such an experimental<br>
and new feature. I know that when I first learned Perl (which was 5.x)<br>
I did so largely by reading the core perldocs almost like a tutorial.<br>
Reading the perlsub now I might quickly forget that signatures are<br>
experimental after glossing over the warning and relating the sizable<br>
signatures documentation to other languages. A beginner to Perl might<br>
consider that the norm or recommended option (after their nightly beer<br>
erases the whole &quot;experimental&quot; disclaimer). It seems to me that<=
br>
&quot;Signatures&quot; should be towards the end (I mean, do experienced Pe=
rl<br>
programmers go to these core documents to discover new features or<br>
hear about them from mailing lists and the like and then look them up<br>
explicitly as I did!?).<br>
<br>
As for rumors, this is the first that I&#39;ve heard of it, but it sounds<b=
r>
like a relatively safe feature to use assuming they haven&#39;t overlooked<=
br>
anything critical in terms of parsing the signature from the language.<br>
And I can&#39;t imagine anything that would break it. It&#39;s probably saf=
e<br>
assuming you can require such a modern perl.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
</div></div><span><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
--<br>
Brandon McCaig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bamccaig@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
bamccaig@gmail.com</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bamccaig@castopulence.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">bamccaig@castopulence.org</a>&gt;<br>
Castopulence Software &lt;<a href=3D"https://www.castopulence.org/" rel=3D"=
noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.castopulence.org/</a>&gt;<br>
Blog &lt;<a href=3D"http://www.bambams.ca/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://www.bambams.ca/</a>&gt;<span class=3D""><br>
perl -E &#39;$_=3Dq{V zrna gur orfg jvgu jung V fnl. }.<br>
q{Vg qbrfa&#39;\&#39;&#39;g nyjnlf fbhaq gung jnl.};<br>
tr/A-Ma-mN-Zn-z/N-Zn-zA-Ma-m/;say&#39;<br>
</span></font></span><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><d=
iv><br>
--<br>
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <a href=3D"mailto:beginners-unsubscribe@perl.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">beginners-unsubscribe@perl.org</a><br>
For additional commands, e-mail: <a href=3D"mailto:beginners-help@perl.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">beginners-help@perl.org</a><br>
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olor=3D"#888888"><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div><div dir=
=3D"ltr">Andrew Solomon<div><br></div><div>Mentor@Geekuni=C2=A0<a href=3D"h=
ttp://geekuni.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://geekuni.com/</a></div><div><a =
href=3D"http://www.linkedin.com/in/asolomon" target=3D"_blank">http://www.l=
inkedin.com/in/asolomon</a><br></div></div></div>
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