Hey guys,

I need a really quick answer to this question. I can't seem to find it anyw=
here. I have a Gmail account. I don't want to mess or change / alter any of=
 the mail under Gmail. It's an old account. I'd just prefer to preserve eve=
rything on the Gmail server exactly how it is now.

My goal here is to download my mail simply to have a localized backup. I'm =
new to Firefox and most of my life I've used web-based interfaces for e-mai=
l. So that's why I'm confused. Can someone please answer me this. If I set-=
up Thunderbird to connect to my Gmail account and I download all my mail. W=
ill it mark my mail under the Gmail server as "read" or even worse will it =
archive it or delete it?
=20
Before I started downloading mail I just want to ask to make sure I know wh=
at I'm doing. Thank you very much. I can't find a direct answer to my quest=
ions anywhere I've searched.

Thank you again!

I'm confused too and new to Thunderbird. Can someone please clarify?


On Thursday, June 14, 2012 12:13:00 PM UTC+9, (unknown) wrote:
> Hey guys,
>=20
> I need a really quick answer to this question. I can't seem to find it an=
ywhere. I have a Gmail account. I don't want to mess or change / alter any =
of the mail under Gmail. It's an old account. I'd just prefer to preserve e=
verything on the Gmail server exactly how it is now.
>=20
> My goal here is to download my mail simply to have a localized backup. I'=
m new to Firefox and most of my life I've used web-based interfaces for e-m=
ail. So that's why I'm confused. Can someone please answer me this. If I se=
t-up Thunderbird to connect to my Gmail account and I download all my mail.=
 Will it mark my mail under the Gmail server as "read" or even worse will i=
t archive it or delete it?
> =20
> Before I started downloading mail I just want to ask to make sure I know =
what I'm doing. Thank you very much. I can't find a direct answer to my que=
stions anywhere I've searched.
>=20
> Thank you again!

baxwerd@gmail.com writes:
>If I set-up Thunderbird to connect to my Gmail account and I
>download all my mail.  will it mark my mail under the Gmail
>server as "read" or even worse will it archive it or delete it?

No, not if you access your mailbox via IMAP.

On 6/13/2012 11:13 PM, baxwerd@gmail.com wrote:
> My goal here is to download my mail simply to have a localized backup.

You might want to set "mail.imap.mime_parts_on_demand", 
"mail.server.default.check_all_folders_for_new" and 
"mail.server.default.mime_parts_on_demand" in "tools -> options -> 
advanced -> general -> config editor" so that Thunderbird automatically 
downloads messages in full (including all parts) by default and checks 
all folders for new messages. Also, under "tools -> accounts settings -> 
the account -> Synchronization and storage", make sure the settings are 
correct so that all your messages are synced for offline use.

That way, you'll be sure all your messages are on your computer in full. 
Note though that if all messages are removed from the server, when 
Thunderbird syncs with the server and sees that all the messages are 
gone, it'll remove all the messages locally too. This means that you 
need to back up Thunderbird's profile folder (or at least the folder 
that holds the messages for the account) (while Thunderbird is closed) 
often so you have a copy of all your messages that you can import from 
if needed. On Win7 for example, Gmail IMAP's messages will be in 
"C:\Users\user\AppData\Roaming\Thunderbird\Profiles\profile_id\ImapMail\imap.googlemail.com" 
(for exmaple).

> If I set-up Thunderbird to connect to my Gmail account and I download all my mail. Will it mark my mail under the Gmail server as "read"

No.

 > or even worse will it archive it

No.

> or delete it?

No. You'll be fine. No need to worry.

However, under "tools -> options -> advanced -> reading and display", 
uncheck "automatically mark a message as read" so that Thunderbird 
doesn't mark any message as read when you open them and only does so 
when you explicitly mark a message as read.

Here's some extra info for you though:

To make sure things work right with Gmail IMAP, under "tools -> account 
settings -> copies & folders", set "Sent" to "other" and set the folder 
to "[Gmail]/Sent Mail" (not really needed because Gmail's SMTP server 
places a copy in the sent mail folder, but you can set it anyway). Set 
"archive" to "other" and set the folder to "[Gmail]/All Mail". Set 
"Drafts" to "other" and set the folder to "[Gmail]/Drafts".

Also, under "junk settings" for the account:

* Uncheck "enable adaptive junk mail controls for this account". The 
server has it's own spam handling.

* Uncheck "trust junk mail folders set by".

* Check "move junk message to", set it to "other" and set it to 
"[Gmail]/Spam".

* Then, under "tools -> options -> security -> junk", check "when I mark 
as message as junk" and set it to "move them to the account's junk folder".

Also, on "server settings" for the account:

* Set check for new messages at startup.

* Set "check for new message every 30 minutes". Thunderbird will rely on 
IDLE to get new messages in "Inbox" right away and the 30 minute check 
will stop IDLE from timing out. If you want the actual check interval to 
be lower, keep it at 10 or above or the server might complain.

* Set "When I delete a message" to "move to this folder" and explicitly 
set it to "[Gmail]/Trash" (not "trash" in the root).

Thunderbird should pick the right folders by default, but I don't trust 
it (especially with "Trash" as I can't tell which "Trash" it picks by 
default), so I set them explicitly.

All the folder setting stuff will make sure that when you delete a 
message, it gets moved to "[Gmail]/Trash" and when you archive a message 
(means to remove a label ("Inbox" or a gmail label you create for 
example) in Gmail IMAP), it gets moved to "[Gmail]/All Mail" to trigger 
a Gmail archive. All of this will make it so that what you do in 
Thunderbird happens at mail.google.com and vice versa.

Also, for further info, Gmail IMAP works a little differently than 
regular IMAP servers. Here are some actions and what they do:

Desired result: How to do it

Delete a message: Move it to "[Gmail]/Trash". (Del key will do the same 
if you have that folder set as the trash folder.)

Star a message: Copy it to "[Gmail]/Starred". (Clicking the star for a 
message will do the same.)

Unstar a meessage: Move it from "[Gmail]/Starred" to "[Gmail]/All Mail". 
(Clicking the yellow star for a message will do the same.)

Remove a label from a message: Move it from the Gmail label it's in 
("Inbox" or an Gmail label you created) to "[Gmail]/All Mail". 
(Right-click -> "Archive" will do this if you have archive set to 
"[Gmail]/All Mail".)

Undelete a message: Move it from "[Gmail]/Trash" to "Inbox" (or just 
"[Gmail]/All Mail" if you don't want to force the "Inbox" label on 
undelete).

Change a label for a message: Move it from the IMAP label folder it's in 
to another one.

Add a label to a message: Copy it from the folder it's in to the IMAP 
label folder for that desired label.

Delete a Gmail label: Delete the IMAP folder for that label.

Create a Gmail Label: Create an IMAP folder in the root with the name 
you desire.

Mark as spam: Move to "[Gmail]/Spam". The "Junk" button will do this if 
you have "junk" set to that folder.

Unmark as spam: Move from "[Gmail]/Spam" to "Inbox" (or just 
"[Gmail]/All Mail" if you don't want to force the "Inbox" label in this 
case). (Clicking "not junk" will do the same for messages that you 
marked as spam in Thunderbird.)

Finally, there's one more tweak in "Tools -> options -> advanced -> 
general -> configure editor". Set "mail.imap.expunge_after_delete" to 
true. It's not really needed for Gmail IMAP, but you should get used to 
it for IMAP accounts so Thunderbird doesn't leave behind hidden copies 
(that are marked as \Deleted where you have to compact to get rid of 
them) when moving messages from one IMAP folder to another. This setting 
being off by default is a major annoyance for users that use multiple 
mail clients with the same IMAP account.

(Note: I use all these suggestions myself with Gmail IMAP.)

-- 
Michael

"Michael A. Puls II" <shadow2531@gmail.com> writes:
>To make sure things work right with Gmail IMAP, under "tools -> account 
>settings -> copies & folders", set "Sent" to "other" and set the folder 
>to "[Gmail]/Sent Mail" (not really needed because Gmail's SMTP server 
>places a copy in the sent mail folder, but you can set it anyway).

No, this is a bad idea.

Gmail actually doesn't like it when Thunderbird saves copies
of sent messages in Sent Mail. I've heard numerous reports of
this causing errors when sending messages.

As long as you have Thunderbird configured properly to send
email through Gmail's SMTP server, which you will if you
allow the account wizard to set up your gmail account OR
follow the instructions published by Gmail for accessing your
account via IMAP and SMTP, then Gmail will save copies of all
your outgoing messages and you should tell Thunderbird not to.

  jik

On 6/14/2012 4:38 PM, Jonathan Kamens wrote:
> "Michael A. Puls II" <shadow2531@gmail.com> writes:
>> To make sure things work right with Gmail IMAP, under "tools -> account
>> settings -> copies & folders", set "Sent" to "other" and set the folder
>> to "[Gmail]/Sent Mail" (not really needed because Gmail's SMTP server
>> places a copy in the sent mail folder, but you can set it anyway).
>
> No, this is a bad idea.
>
> Gmail actually doesn't like it when Thunderbird saves copies
> of sent messages in Sent Mail. I've heard numerous reports of
> this causing errors when sending messages.

what types of errors?

> As long as you have Thunderbird configured properly to send
> email through Gmail's SMTP server, which you will if you
> allow the account wizard to set up your gmail account OR
> follow the instructions published by Gmail for accessing your
> account via IMAP and SMTP, then Gmail will save copies of all
> your outgoing messages and you should tell Thunderbird not to.

interesting.



-- 
contribute ... http://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Testing

On 6/14/2012 4:38 PM, Jonathan Kamens wrote:
> "Michael A. Puls II" <shadow2531@gmail.com> writes:
>> To make sure things work right with Gmail IMAP, under "tools -> account
>> settings -> copies & folders", set "Sent" to "other" and set the folder
>> to "[Gmail]/Sent Mail" (not really needed because Gmail's SMTP server
>> places a copy in the sent mail folder, but you can set it anyway).
>
> No, this is a bad idea.
>
> Gmail actually doesn't like it when Thunderbird saves copies
> of sent messages in Sent Mail. I've heard numerous reports of
> this causing errors when sending messages.

In Opera's built-in mail client, you must set an IMAP sent folder (which 
will try to append a copy to the "[Gmail]/Sent Mail") if you want 
messages in "[Gmail]/Sent Mail" to be treated as sent messages by Opera 
(as in, so they're shown in the "All Messages/Sent" view and so they can 
be hidden by unchecking "show sent" for each view). When doing so, Opera 
will attempt to append a copy of the sent message to the "Sent Mail" 
IMAP folder. Opera doesn't allow you to set an IMAP sent folder and 
control (turn off) the appending separately.

This is not a problem because Gmail ignores one of the copies. I'm not 
sure which copy, the one from Opera or the one generated by the SMTP 
server, never checked, but I would assume the IMAP server would return 
some error to get the client to cancel the appending and keep the 
SMTP-generated copy.

Even if there is an error returned, I assume it's an intentional error 
to stop the appending and is a non-fatal one with no side effects.

As for Thunderbird, since it doesn't have a sent view or "show sent" 
controls really, I assumed the sent folder at least still had to be set 
so that "[Gmail]/Sent Mail" gets the sent icon for its folder in the 
pane. But, just checked and that's not needed (maybe because of xlist, 
never checked).

> As long as you have Thunderbird configured properly to send
> email through Gmail's SMTP server, which you will if you
> allow the account wizard to set up your gmail account OR
> follow the instructions published by Gmail for accessing your
> account via IMAP and SMTP, then Gmail will save copies of all
> your outgoing messages and you should tell Thunderbird not to.

Correct. Although I still set a Gmail IMAP sent folder without problems, 
there's really no need to *in Thunderbird* and, I withdraw my "but you 
can set it anyway" statement for the OP and others Thunderbird users.

-- 
Michael

Wayne Mery <vseerror@lehigh.edu> writes:
>On 6/14/2012 4:38 PM, Jonathan Kamens wrote:
>> Gmail actually doesn't like it when Thunderbird saves copies
>> of sent messages in Sent Mail. I've heard numerous reports of
>> this causing errors when sending messages.
>
>what types of errors?

Well, first of all, contrary to what another poster in this
thread claimed, I'm not at all convinced that Gmail "ignores"
one of the two copies of the sent message. I've heard reports
from users of seeing two copies of every sent message in
their Sent Mail folder if they have Thunderbird configured to
save a copy in addition to the one saved automatically by
Gmail.

Aside from that, I don't know the specific IMAP protocol error
that the Gmail server is sending back, but I know multiple
users of my Send Later 3 add-on have complained to me that
when they configure Thunderbird to save sent messages in
Gmail's Sent Mail folder, they sometimes get errors at send
time when Thunderbird tries to save the copy.

"Michael A. Puls II" <shadow2531@gmail.com> writes:
>Opera doesn't allow you to set an IMAP sent folder and 
>control (turn off) the appending separately.

This is an unfortunate deficiency (not quite a "bug") in Opera.

>This is not a problem because Gmail ignores one of the copies.

I've not tested it myself, but that is not what I hear from
the users of my add-on. They've told me that when Thunderbird
saves copies in Sent Mail, they end up with two copies there.

>Even if there is an error returned, I assume it's an intentional error 
>to stop the appending and is a non-fatal one with no side effects.

It's quite annoying to have Thunderbird tell you repeatedly
that it was unable to save a copy of a sent message.

And there _is_ a side effect if the messages are being
delivered from the Outbox, because when Thunderbird encounters
the first error, it'll stop delivering from the Outbox and the
rest of the messages won't get sent.

Not only that, but it might leave the message whose copy
couldn't be saved in the Outbox rather than removing it, which
would cause it to be redelivered the next time the user
delivers mail from the Outbox, ad infinitum. I'm sure the
recipient(s) of the message would not appreciate that.

In short, it's a Bad Idea.

On 6/15/2012 10:13 AM, Jonathan Kamens wrote:
> "Michael A. Puls II" <shadow2531@gmail.com> writes:
>> Opera doesn't allow you to set an IMAP sent folder and
>> control (turn off) the appending separately.
>
> This is an unfortunate deficiency (not quite a "bug") in Opera.

Yep.

>> This is not a problem because Gmail ignores one of the copies.
>
> I've not tested it myself, but that is not what I hear from
> the users of my add-on. They've told me that when Thunderbird
> saves copies in Sent Mail, they end up with two copies there.

Remember that from the IMAP side, there are 2 copies of each sent 
message: one from "[Gmail]/All Mail" (because sent messages are part of 
the conversation) and one from "[Gmail]/Sent Mail" to just show the sent 
message.

I finally tested with a sent folder set in Opera:

Here's the summary of the relevant parts of the log:

Opera (connection 2) out: APPEND "[Gmail]/Sent Mail" (\Seen) {366}
Opera (connection 1) out: fetch "[Gmail]/All Mail" (look for new 
messages in All Mail.)
Gmail (connection 2) in: + go ahead
Opera (connection 2) out: Opera sends the data for the message to Gmail
Gmail (connection 1) in: The copy of the sent message that's in 
"[Gmail]/All Mail" now is recognized and fetched.
Gmail (connection 2) in: OK [APPENDUID 30 4451] (Success)

So, the append to "[Gmail]/Sent Mail" is successful and the copy from 
"[Gmail]/All Mail" is found and fetched. The copy from "[Gmail]/Sent 
Mail" would be found and fetched too if I then select the "Sent Mail" 
IMAP folder.

I also tested without a sent folder set. There's no append done. The 
sent copy from "[Gmail]/All Mail" is found and fetched. Then, when I 
select "[Gmail]/Sent Mail", that copy is then found and fetched.

So, I don't see any errors either way and would describe the behavior as 
this:

* The smtp server places a copy of the sent message in "[Gmail]/All 
Mail" (talking about how it looks from the IMAP side).

* Before a copy of that message is placed in "[Gmail]/Sent Mail" 
(talking about the way it looks from the IMAP side again) *by Gmail*, 
Gmail looks to see if a copy of the message is already in "[Gmail]/Sent 
Mail" (by message-id comparison). If the copy is already there (because 
the client (Opera in this case) appended a copy to "Sent Mail", Gmail 
doesn't add a copy itself. If there isn't a copy already there, then 
Gmail adds a copy of the message to "Sent Mail" itself.

It's either that or Gmail ignores the data sent by the APPEND command 
(it still receives the data and responds with success. It just ignores 
it) and Gmail always places a copy in "[Gmail]/Sent Mail" when the SMTP 
server places the copy in "[Gmail]/All Mail".

I never get 2 copies (in Thunderbird either) in "[Gmail]/Sent Mail" when 
setting the sent folder to "[Gmail]/Sent Mail" where the client appends 
a copy to it.

That's just what I've found. I'll still take your word for it that it 
does/can cause problems (especially since I don't know anything about 
your add-on) and will always suggest making sure there isn't a sent 
folder set (when possible, see below).

Note: In Opera for Gmail IMAP, if you don't want a sent folder set (it's 
forced to "[Gmail]/Sent mail"), you can close down Opera and edit 
incomingN.txt (where N is the number for the account as seen in 
accounts.ini) sent set Disable SPECIAL-USE=1 (to disable XLIST support). 
That will allow you to unset a sent folder on the "IMAP" tab in the 
account's properties (where it will stay unset).

-- 
Michael

On 6/15/2012 9:10 AM, Jonathan Kamens wrote:

> Wayne Mery <vseerror@lehigh.edu> writes:
>> On 6/14/2012 4:38 PM, Jonathan Kamens wrote:
>>> Gmail actually doesn't like it when Thunderbird saves copies
>>> of sent messages in Sent Mail. I've heard numerous reports of
>>> this causing errors when sending messages.
>>
>> what types of errors?

> Well, first of all, contrary to what another poster in this
> thread claimed, I'm not at all convinced that Gmail "ignores"
> one of the two copies of the sent message. I've heard reports
> from users of seeing two copies of every sent message in
> their Sent Mail folder if they have Thunderbird configured to
> save a copy in addition to the one saved automatically by
> Gmail.

There might be confusion between several completely different actions,
as well as different best actions depending on whose outgoing server you use:

1. Mailing a message using Google's SMTP server (MSA) for your account
automatically stores a copy, as JK says, in the "Sent" view of your account.

2. Mailing a message having your own account as a recipient, or which is
forwarded back to your account, does not create a duplicate "incoming"
copy in the same "conversation" if it was mailed via #1, which may be called
"suppressing" any duplicate incoming message from appearing, in that special case.

3. Inserting a message into your "Sent" view using an IMAP operation
is different from either of the above, and evidently _can_ cause duplication
(but perhaps not always, depending on the exact order of #1 vs. #3)

You certainly don't need to do both #1 and #3 for the same message,
because #1 already places a copy in your "Sent" view,
making #3 a duplicate if both operations "succeed."

If you are using a non-Google or unrelated outgoing (SMTP) server,
then do either #2 or #3 if you want to keep a copy, but not both.

About MUA, MDA, MSA, MTA, and MRA (agents that deal with SMTP):
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email_agent_(infrastructure)>

--