new newsgroup

Hi Q and Chris,
Where are all the posts.  For once I may be ahead of the pack?
Its only 27 here today.
0
Peter
1/10/2006 11:55:14 PM
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_Peter In MN(Brrrr)_ spoke thusly on 10/01/2006 6:55 PM:
> Hi Q and Chris,
> Where are all the posts.  For once I may be ahead of the pack?
> Its only 27 here today.

This is a brand new group, that hasn't even existed for 24 hours. (My 
original post was sent before news.mozilla.org was pointed to Giganews.) 
Don't worry about traffic.
-- 
Chris Ilias - Mozilla Champion
(Please do not email me tech support questions)
Mozilla Help <http://mozillahelp.com>
Netscape 7 Help <http://ilias.ca/netscape/>
0
Chris
1/11/2006 12:45:27 AM
"Peter In MN(Brrrr)" <aptdoc@yahoo.com> wrote in <news:a-
ydna7uI_P_1FneRVn-uA@mozilla.org>:

> Hi Q and Chris,
> Where are all the posts.  For once I may be ahead of the pack?
> Its only 27 here today.

Heh, I guess it will pick up fairly quickly, as people learn about it.
I've seen a few announcements on Usenet, and people are blogging about
the new server.

-- 
�Q�
0
ISO
1/11/2006 12:51:50 AM
On 1/10/2006 3:55 PM On a whim, Peter In MN(Brrrr) pounded out on the 
keyboard

> Hi Q and Chris,
> Where are all the posts.  For once I may be ahead of the pack?
> Its only 27 here today.

Hey, we're trying to fill it up as fast as we can! ;-)

-- 
Terry

***Reply Note***
Anti-spam measures are included in my email address.
Delete NOSPAM from the email address after clicking Reply.
0
Terry
1/11/2006 12:59:26 AM
On 1/10/2006 6:45 PM Chris Ilias loudly proclaimed:

> _Peter In MN(Brrrr)_ spoke thusly on 10/01/2006 6:55 PM:
>> Hi Q and Chris,
>> Where are all the posts.  For once I may be ahead of the pack?
>> Its only 27 here today.
> 
> This is a brand new group, that hasn't even existed for 24 hours. (My 
> original post was sent before news.mozilla.org was pointed to Giganews.) 
> Don't worry about traffic.

So let me get this straight.  I can now remove the secnews.netscape.com 
server and use these newsgroups instead.  Is that correct?

-- 
LJ
My Best Friend Is My Wife!!
0
DynaBMan
1/11/2006 1:04:43 AM
Terry wrote:
> On 1/10/2006 3:55 PM On a whim, Peter In MN(Brrrr) pounded out on the 
> keyboard
> 
>> Hi Q and Chris,
>> Where are all the posts.  For once I may be ahead of the pack?
>> Its only 27 here today.
> 
> Hey, we're trying to fill it up as fast as we can! ;-)
> 

I'm here!

/waves frantically ;-)

-- 
Albert Sims
West Monroe,Louisiana
0
Albert
1/11/2006 2:11:32 AM
_DynaBMan_ spoke thusly on 10/01/2006 8:04 PM:
> So let me get this straight.  I can now remove the secnews.netscape.com 
> server and use these newsgroups instead.  Is that correct?

Assuming you only subscribed to Mozilla/Firefox/Thunderbird user support 
newsgroups, yes.
-- 
Chris Ilias - Mozilla Champion
(Please do not email me tech support questions)
Mozilla Help <http://mozillahelp.com>
Netscape 7 Help <http://ilias.ca/netscape/>
0
Chris
1/11/2006 2:31:41 AM
DynaBMan <dynabman@cox.invalid.net> wrote:
> On 1/10/2006 6:45 PM Chris Ilias loudly proclaimed:
>
>> _Peter In MN(Brrrr)_ spoke thusly on 10/01/2006 6:55 PM:
>>> Hi Q and Chris,
>>> Where are all the posts.  For once I may be ahead of the pack?
>>> Its only 27 here today.
>>
>> This is a brand new group, that hasn't even existed for 24 hours. (My
>> original post was sent before news.mozilla.org was pointed to Giganews.)
>> Don't worry about traffic.
>
> So let me get this straight.  I can now remove the secnews.netscape.com
> server and use these newsgroups instead.  Is that correct?
>
Yes
0
me9
1/11/2006 2:32:04 AM
On 1/10/2006 8:31 PM Chris Ilias loudly proclaimed:

> _DynaBMan_ spoke thusly on 10/01/2006 8:04 PM:
>> So let me get this straight.  I can now remove the 
>> secnews.netscape.com server and use these newsgroups instead.  Is that 
>> correct?
> 
> Assuming you only subscribed to Mozilla/Firefox/Thunderbird user support 
> newsgroups, yes.

Those are the only groups I follow, so it looks like I will be removing 
the secnews server as soon as the posts on those groups start fading 
away into the sunset.  ;)

-- 
LJ
My Best Friend Is My Wife!!
0
DynaBMan
1/11/2006 2:39:35 AM
DynaBMan wrote:

> On 1/10/2006 6:45 PM Chris Ilias loudly proclaimed:
> 
>> _Peter In MN(Brrrr)_ spoke thusly on 10/01/2006 6:55 PM:
>>> Hi Q and Chris,
>>> Where are all the posts.  For once I may be ahead of the pack?
>>> Its only 27 here today.
>> 
>> This is a brand new group, that hasn't even existed for 24 hours. (My 
>> original post was sent before news.mozilla.org was pointed to Giganews.) 
>> Don't worry about traffic.
> 
> So let me get this straight.  I can now remove the secnews.netscape.com 
> server and use these newsgroups instead.  Is that correct?

My guess is 'yeah.'  Call me a sentimental fool, but I'll miss the old server.

-- 
Cheers,
Bev
--------------------------------------------
There is no such thing as a foolproof device
because fools are so ingenious.
0
The
1/11/2006 2:40:16 AM
On 1/10/2006 8:40 PM The Real Bev loudly proclaimed:

> DynaBMan wrote:
> 
>> On 1/10/2006 6:45 PM Chris Ilias loudly proclaimed:
>>
>>> _Peter In MN(Brrrr)_ spoke thusly on 10/01/2006 6:55 PM:
>>>> Hi Q and Chris,
>>>> Where are all the posts.  For once I may be ahead of the pack?
>>>> Its only 27 here today.
>>>
>>> This is a brand new group, that hasn't even existed for 24 hours. (My 
>>> original post was sent before news.mozilla.org was pointed to 
>>> Giganews.) Don't worry about traffic.
>>
>> So let me get this straight.  I can now remove the 
>> secnews.netscape.com server and use these newsgroups instead.  Is that 
>> correct?
> 
> My guess is 'yeah.'  Call me a sentimental fool, but I'll miss the old 
> server.
> 
I will sure miss the *ZERO* amount of spam on the secure server.

-- 
LJ
My Best Friend Is My Wife!!
0
DynaBMan
1/11/2006 2:57:06 AM
Chris Ilias wrote:
> _DynaBMan_ spoke thusly on 10/01/2006 8:04 PM:
>> So let me get this straight.  I can now remove the
>> secnews.netscape.com server and use these newsgroups instead.  Is
>> that correct?
>
> Assuming you only subscribed to Mozilla/Firefox/Thunderbird user
> support newsgroups, yes.

Chris...I tried to ask something similar to this in the other group and I 
got yelled at and insulted - oh well...Pete 


0
Pete
1/11/2006 3:39:36 AM
DynaBMan wrote:
> On 1/10/2006 8:40 PM The Real Bev loudly proclaimed:
> 
>> DynaBMan wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/10/2006 6:45 PM Chris Ilias loudly proclaimed:
>>>
>>>> _Peter In MN(Brrrr)_ spoke thusly on 10/01/2006 6:55 PM:
>>>>> Hi Q and Chris,
>>>>> Where are all the posts.  For once I may be ahead of the pack?
>>>>> Its only 27 here today.
>>>>
>>>> This is a brand new group, that hasn't even existed for 24 hours. 
>>>> (My original post was sent before news.mozilla.org was pointed to 
>>>> Giganews.) Don't worry about traffic.
>>>
>>> So let me get this straight.  I can now remove the 
>>> secnews.netscape.com server and use these newsgroups instead.  Is 
>>> that correct?
>>
>> My guess is 'yeah.'  Call me a sentimental fool, but I'll miss the old 
>> server.
>>
> I will sure miss the *ZERO* amount of spam on the secure server.
> 

Well, I'll still be supporting there, as long as people post.  These 
groups are the wave of the future though.

Lee

-- 
Leonidas Jones, Mozilla Champion
Learn about the Champs!  http://mozillachampions.ufaq.org
The UFAQ'S http://www.ufaq.org/
http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html
http://mozilla.com   http://mozilla.org
0
Leonidas
1/11/2006 3:41:52 AM
Pete wrote:
> Chris Ilias wrote:
>> _DynaBMan_ spoke thusly on 10/01/2006 8:04 PM:
>>> So let me get this straight.  I can now remove the
>>> secnews.netscape.com server and use these newsgroups instead.  Is
>>> that correct?
>> Assuming you only subscribed to Mozilla/Firefox/Thunderbird user
>> support newsgroups, yes.
> 
> Chris...I tried to ask something similar to this in the other group and I 
> got yelled at and insulted - oh well...Pete 
> 
> 

"yelled at and insulted" ????

I missed that part. Chris did make a bottom posting comment, but it was 
a joke, and has a smiley appended.

I am leaving the secnews account in  place.  There are netscape groups 
there that will not be duplicated on this server.  As far as the Mozilla 
related groups, I'll support in there as long as people post, though I 
will refer them here.

I'm going to miss secnews.

Lee

-- 
Leonidas Jones, Mozilla Champion
Learn about the Champs!  http://mozillachampions.ufaq.org
The UFAQ'S http://www.ufaq.org/
http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html
http://mozilla.com   http://mozilla.org
0
Leonidas
1/11/2006 3:58:36 AM
Leonidas Jones wrote:
> Pete wrote:
>> Chris Ilias wrote:
>>> _DynaBMan_ spoke thusly on 10/01/2006 8:04 PM:
>>>> So let me get this straight.  I can now remove the
>>>> secnews.netscape.com server and use these newsgroups instead.  Is
>>>> that correct?
>>> Assuming you only subscribed to Mozilla/Firefox/Thunderbird user
>>> support newsgroups, yes.
>>
>> Chris...I tried to ask something similar to this in the other group 
>> and I got yelled at and insulted - oh well...Pete
>>
> 
> "yelled at and insulted" ????
> 
> I missed that part. Chris did make a bottom posting comment, but it was 
> a joke, and has a smiley appended.
> 
> I am leaving the secnews account in  place.  There are netscape groups 
> there that will not be duplicated on this server.  As far as the Mozilla 
> related groups, I'll support in there as long as people post, though I 
> will refer them here.
> 
> I'm going to miss secnews.
> 
> Lee
> 

Lee, I feel it's going to make the task of the Champs much harder.  I can 
envision 1000 messages per thread and messages of 20 lines with many of 
the replies repeated.  All because of allowed snipping!  I don't know who 
thought that up, obvious not a person familiar with the secnews format.

Don
0
Don
1/11/2006 4:42:10 AM
Don Nickell wrote:
> Leonidas Jones wrote:
>> Pete wrote:
>>> Chris Ilias wrote:
>>>> _DynaBMan_ spoke thusly on 10/01/2006 8:04 PM:
>>>>> So let me get this straight.  I can now remove the
>>>>> secnews.netscape.com server and use these newsgroups instead.  Is
>>>>> that correct?
>>>> Assuming you only subscribed to Mozilla/Firefox/Thunderbird user
>>>> support newsgroups, yes.
>>>
>>> Chris...I tried to ask something similar to this in the other group 
>>> and I got yelled at and insulted - oh well...Pete
>>>
>>
>> "yelled at and insulted" ????
>>
>> I missed that part. Chris did make a bottom posting comment, but it 
>> was a joke, and has a smiley appended.
>>
>> I am leaving the secnews account in  place.  There are netscape groups 
>> there that will not be duplicated on this server.  As far as the 
>> Mozilla related groups, I'll support in there as long as people post, 
>> though I will refer them here.
>>
>> I'm going to miss secnews.
>>
>> Lee
>>
> 
> Lee, I feel it's going to make the task of the Champs much harder.  I 
> can envision 1000 messages per thread and messages of 20 lines with many 
> of the replies repeated.  All because of allowed snipping!  I don't know 
> who thought that up, obvious not a person familiar with the secnews format.
> 
> Don

Lee, sorry I repeated my self on that subject. I posted the same thoughts 
on the secnews NG.  But I keep trying to overcome my glitches.  ;-)

Also, I see the number of messages on the secnews server is starting to 
dwindle.  I guess that's good news. As you note it will take a bit of 
patience during this transition.

Don
0
Don
1/11/2006 4:48:56 AM
Don Nickell <dnickell@icehouse.net> wrote in
<news:zomdneCygOheEVnenZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@mozilla.org>:

> Lee, I feel it's going to make the task of the Champs much harder.
> I can envision 1000 messages per thread and messages of 20 lines
> with many of the replies repeated.  All because of allowed
> snipping!  I don't know who thought that up, obvious not a person
> familiar with the secnews format.

It generally works fine on Usenet and in mailing lists, and has for
many years.  Snipping while leaving enough to show what's already been
tried takes a bit of practice, but it's not that hard to do.

And a no-snipping policy for anything gated to a mailing list is a bad
idea.  E-mails are pushed rather than pulled, so the client has less
choice in what should be gotten.

-- 
�Q�
0
ISO
1/11/2006 5:21:42 AM
On 1/10/2006 8:42 PM Pacific, Don Nickell wrote:
> Leonidas Jones wrote:
>> Pete wrote:
>>> Chris Ilias wrote:
>>>> _DynaBMan_ spoke thusly on 10/01/2006 8:04 PM:
>>>>> So let me get this straight.  I can now remove the
>>>>> secnews.netscape.com server and use these newsgroups instead.  Is
>>>>> that correct?
>>>> Assuming you only subscribed to Mozilla/Firefox/Thunderbird user
>>>> support newsgroups, yes.
>>> Chris...I tried to ask something similar to this in the other group 
>>> and I got yelled at and insulted - oh well...Pete
>>>
>> "yelled at and insulted" ????
>>
>> I missed that part. Chris did make a bottom posting comment, but it was 
>> a joke, and has a smiley appended.
>>
>> I am leaving the secnews account in  place.  There are netscape groups 
>> there that will not be duplicated on this server.  As far as the Mozilla 
>> related groups, I'll support in there as long as people post, though I 
>> will refer them here.
>>
>> I'm going to miss secnews.
>>
>> Lee
>>
> 
> Lee, I feel it's going to make the task of the Champs much harder.  I can 
> envision 1000 messages per thread and messages of 20 lines with many of 
> the replies repeated.  All because of allowed snipping!  I don't know who 
> thought that up, obvious not a person familiar with the secnews format.
> 
> Don
I must have missed some posting guidelines for this server.  Got a
reference?

Irwin

-- 
Irwin Greenwald - Mozilla Champion
Posting Guidelines http://mozillachampions.ufaq.org/guidelines.html
About Profiles -
http://users.adelphia.net/~irwingreenwald/About%20Profiles.html
OE Quotefix - http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/
0
Irwin
1/11/2006 5:26:05 AM
_Pete_ spoke thusly on 10/01/2006 10:39 PM:
>> _DynaBMan_ spoke thusly on 10/01/2006 8:04 PM:
>>> So let me get this straight.  I can now remove the
>>> secnews.netscape.com server and use these newsgroups instead.  Is
>>> that correct?
> 
> Chris...I tried to ask something similar to this in the other group and I 
> got yelled at and insulted - oh well...Pete 

No-one yelled at you, or insulted you.
-- 
Chris Ilias - Mozilla Champion
(Please do not email me tech support questions)
Mozilla Help <http://mozillahelp.com>
Netscape 7 Help <http://ilias.ca/netscape/>
0
Chris
1/11/2006 5:39:26 AM
_Irwin Greenwald_ spoke thusly on 11/01/2006 12:26 AM:
> I must have missed some posting guidelines for this server.  Got a
> reference?

Geeze, even my fellow Champs aren't reading the documentation. :-(
All the info you need is here: <http://ilias.ca/newsserverinfo.html>.
-- 
Chris Ilias - Mozilla Champion
(Please do not email me tech support questions)
Mozilla Help <http://mozillahelp.com>
Netscape 7 Help <http://ilias.ca/netscape/>
0
Chris
1/11/2006 5:40:57 AM
Leonidas Jones wrote:

> Pete wrote:
>> Chris Ilias wrote:
>>> _DynaBMan_ spoke thusly on 10/01/2006 8:04 PM:
>>>> So let me get this straight.  I can now remove the
>>>> secnews.netscape.com server and use these newsgroups instead.  Is
>>>> that correct?
>>> Assuming you only subscribed to Mozilla/Firefox/Thunderbird user
>>> support newsgroups, yes.
>> 
>> Chris...I tried to ask something similar to this in the other group and I 
>> got yelled at and insulted - oh well...Pete 
> 
> "yelled at and insulted" ????

Back when I believed that the 'public' newsgroups meant, well, 'public' 
instead of 'developers and other gods only', somebody yelled at me and 
insulted me for posting help questions.  Silly me, I figured we all spoke the 
same language.

> I missed that part. Chris did make a bottom posting comment, but it was 
> a joke, and has a smiley appended.
> 
> I am leaving the secnews account in  place.  There are netscape groups 
> there that will not be duplicated on this server.  As far as the Mozilla 
> related groups, I'll support in there as long as people post, though I 
> will refer them here.
> 
> I'm going to miss secnews.

Me too.

-- 
Cheers, Bev
================================================================
"Is there any way I can help without actually getting involved?"
                                              -- Jennifer, WKRP
0
The
1/11/2006 6:03:42 AM
The Real Bev <bashley@myrealbox.com> wrote in
<news:gvadnVhrwqssAlneRVn-gA@mozilla.org>:

> Back when I believed that the 'public' newsgroups meant, well,
> 'public' instead of 'developers and other gods only', somebody
> yelled at me and insulted me for posting help questions.  Silly
> me, I figured we all spoke the same language.

SHUT UP, BEV!  Oops, I mean, I'm sorry you got yelled at.

;)

You've probably seen this, but I'll link to Chris' interesting
history-of-the-groups post anyway.

<http://ilias.ca/blog/2005/04/history-of-mozilla-newsgroups.html>

Hopefully this new change will rectify once and for all some of the
weird artifacts of the strange history of netscape/mozilla-related
groups.  Now that the distinction between dev and user groups is
clear at first glance, I hope the devs will actually use their
groups.  ISTM the users posting in netscape.public.* drove a lot of
devs away from the groups, with the result that development isn't
done as much in the open as could be hoped for in a big
free/open-source project.

And hopefully it'll lead to less yelling all around.

-- 
�Q�
0
ISO
1/11/2006 6:45:04 AM
�Q� wrote:

> Don Nickell <dnickell@icehouse.net> wrote in
> <news:zomdneCygOheEVnenZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@mozilla.org>:
> 
> 
>>Lee, I feel it's going to make the task of the Champs much harder.
>>I can envision 1000 messages per thread and messages of 20 lines
>>with many of the replies repeated.  All because of allowed
>>snipping!  I don't know who thought that up, obvious not a person
>>familiar with the secnews format.
> 
> 
> It generally works fine on Usenet and in mailing lists, and has for
> many years.  Snipping while leaving enough to show what's already been
> tried takes a bit of practice, but it's not that hard to do.
> 
> And a no-snipping policy for anything gated to a mailing list is a bad
> idea.  E-mails are pushed rather than pulled, so the client has less
> choice in what should be gotten.
> 
and then there's the Microsoft newsgroups.  Lot of brainy people 
there.  You post a message there, someone replies, top posting it, 
then they have their sig file delimiter after their response, but 
before yours.  So now, when you reply to that, everything below their 
reply gets tossed out.
0
gwtc
1/11/2006 7:15:10 AM
Albert Sims wrote:

> Terry wrote:
> 
>>On 1/10/2006 3:55 PM On a whim, Peter In MN(Brrrr) pounded out on the 
>>keyboard
>>
>>
>>>Hi Q and Chris,
>>>Where are all the posts.  For once I may be ahead of the pack?
>>>Its only 27 here today.
>>
>>Hey, we're trying to fill it up as fast as we can! ;-)
>>
> 
> 
> I'm here!
> 
> /waves frantically ;-)
> 
where!? ;-)
0
gwtc
1/11/2006 7:16:51 AM
On 11.01.2006 07:15 UK Time, gwtc wrote:
> �Q� wrote:
> 
>> Don Nickell <dnickell@icehouse.net> wrote in
>> <news:zomdneCygOheEVnenZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@mozilla.org>:
>>
>>
>>> Lee, I feel it's going to make the task of the Champs much harder.
>>> I can envision 1000 messages per thread and messages of 20 lines
>>> with many of the replies repeated.  All because of allowed
>>> snipping!  I don't know who thought that up, obvious not a person
>>> familiar with the secnews format.
>>
>>
>>
>> It generally works fine on Usenet and in mailing lists, and has for
>> many years.  Snipping while leaving enough to show what's already been
>> tried takes a bit of practice, but it's not that hard to do.
>>
>> And a no-snipping policy for anything gated to a mailing list is a bad
>> idea.  E-mails are pushed rather than pulled, so the client has less
>> choice in what should be gotten.
>>
> and then there's the Microsoft newsgroups.  Lot of brainy people there.  
> You post a message there, someone replies, top posting it, then they 
> have their sig file delimiter after their response, but before yours.  
> So now, when you reply to that, everything below their reply gets tossed 
> out.

I only just discovered the Microsoft newsgroups the other day - they are 
really useful, but I can confirm the confusing sig delimiter phenomenon 
you describe :-)

-- 
Herbert Eppel
www.HETranslation.co.uk
0
Herb
1/11/2006 7:25:44 AM
Herb wrote:

> On 11.01.2006 07:15 UK Time, gwtc wrote:
> 
>>�Q� wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Don Nickell <dnickell@icehouse.net> wrote in
>>><news:zomdneCygOheEVnenZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@mozilla.org>:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Lee, I feel it's going to make the task of the Champs much harder.
>>>>I can envision 1000 messages per thread and messages of 20 lines
>>>>with many of the replies repeated.  All because of allowed
>>>>snipping!  I don't know who thought that up, obvious not a person
>>>>familiar with the secnews format.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>It generally works fine on Usenet and in mailing lists, and has for
>>>many years.  Snipping while leaving enough to show what's already been
>>>tried takes a bit of practice, but it's not that hard to do.
>>>
>>>And a no-snipping policy for anything gated to a mailing list is a bad
>>>idea.  E-mails are pushed rather than pulled, so the client has less
>>>choice in what should be gotten.
>>>
>>
>>and then there's the Microsoft newsgroups.  Lot of brainy people there.  
>>You post a message there, someone replies, top posting it, then they 
>>have their sig file delimiter after their response, but before yours.  
>>So now, when you reply to that, everything below their reply gets tossed 
>>out.
> 
> 
> I only just discovered the Microsoft newsgroups the other day - they are 
> really useful, but I can confirm the confusing sig delimiter phenomenon 
> you describe :-)
> 
and the ones doing those funny postings are the MVPs
0
gwtc
1/11/2006 7:36:35 AM
On 11.01.2006 07:36 UK Time, gwtc wrote:
> Herb wrote:
> 
>> On 11.01.2006 07:15 UK Time, gwtc wrote:
>>
>>> �Q� wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Don Nickell <dnickell@icehouse.net> wrote in
>>>> <news:zomdneCygOheEVnenZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@mozilla.org>:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Lee, I feel it's going to make the task of the Champs much harder.
>>>>> I can envision 1000 messages per thread and messages of 20 lines
>>>>> with many of the replies repeated.  All because of allowed
>>>>> snipping!  I don't know who thought that up, obvious not a person
>>>>> familiar with the secnews format.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It generally works fine on Usenet and in mailing lists, and has for
>>>> many years.  Snipping while leaving enough to show what's already been
>>>> tried takes a bit of practice, but it's not that hard to do.
>>>>
>>>> And a no-snipping policy for anything gated to a mailing list is a bad
>>>> idea.  E-mails are pushed rather than pulled, so the client has less
>>>> choice in what should be gotten.
>>>>
>>>
>>> and then there's the Microsoft newsgroups.  Lot of brainy people 
>>> there.  You post a message there, someone replies, top posting it, 
>>> then they have their sig file delimiter after their response, but 
>>> before yours.  So now, when you reply to that, everything below their 
>>> reply gets tossed out.
>>
>>
>>
>> I only just discovered the Microsoft newsgroups the other day - they 
>> are really useful, but I can confirm the confusing sig delimiter 
>> phenomenon you describe :-)
>>
> and the ones doing those funny postings are the MVPs

Indeed :-)

Mind you, one of them (Ramesh) apparently sorted out a mysterious "Error 
1327 - Invalid Drive" problem for me that prevented me from installing 
new software on my XP laptop without my external Freecom hard drive 
attached.

I had asked in several places before, and all people could come up with 
is to reinstall XP.

Apparently, it had been caused by a mysterious corruption in the 
registry setting for the "My Pictures" folder!

I was so pleased that I told him he deserves a medal - and I didn't make 
a fuss about the sig thingy :-)

-- 
Herbert Eppel
www.HETranslation.co.uk
0
Herb
1/11/2006 7:44:24 AM
gwtc <TheNewGWTC@pppmppfmpfmmmmfmmmpfmmpp.pppmppfmp> wrote in
<news:iJCdnZN2TMr8MlneRVn-rg@mozilla.org>:

>> It generally works fine on Usenet and in mailing lists, and has
>> for many years.  Snipping while leaving enough to show what's
>> already been tried takes a bit of practice, but it's not that
>> hard to do.
>>
>> And a no-snipping policy for anything gated to a mailing list is
>> a bad idea.  E-mails are pushed rather than pulled, so the client
>> has less choice in what should be gotten.
>
> and then there's the Microsoft newsgroups.  Lot of brainy people
> there.  You post a message there, someone replies, top posting it,
> then they have their sig file delimiter after their response, but
> before yours.  So now, when you reply to that, everything below
> their reply gets tossed out.

That's all true;  IME, the MS groups are the best (worst) example of
what happens when there is complete tolerance for any posting style
anyone chooses to employ.  Things used to be somewhat better there, in
the days before MS put their marketing dept. in charge of the MVP
program.  Better in terms of readability and in terms of content, I
mean.  There's still good info, but the S/N ratio of the MVPs' output
has dropped an awful lot.

-- 
�Q�
0
ISO
1/11/2006 8:01:53 AM
�Q� wrote:

>> Lee, I feel it's going to make the task of the Champs much harder.

> It generally works fine on Usenet and in mailing lists, and has for
> many years.  Snipping while leaving enough to show what's already been
> tried takes a bit of practice, but it's not that hard to do.
> 
> And a no-snipping policy for anything gated to a mailing list is a bad
> idea.  E-mails are pushed rather than pulled, so the client has less
> choice in what should be gotten.
> 

Implicit in what you say is that the e-mails take up local disk space,
as distinct from the news server's space. It could become quite a
hardship to those with low disk capacity. Snipping and answering each
point as it arises is by far the best way and most economical way anyway
- it worked fine on Fidonet before the days of widespread Internet usage
and when we had to pay for our own mail transmissions. Sweet reason is
the answer, and I would suggest that if, for example, the Champs find
threads harder to follow here then a request to the users to leave in
more information, or whatever was needed, would certainly be well
received by most.

Regards,

Bob

-- 
Remove "x" from address to reply by email
0
Bob
1/11/2006 8:41:55 AM
On 01/11/06 03:01, »Q« wrote:
> gwtc <TheNewGWTC@pppmppfmpfmmmmfmmmpfmmpp.pppmppfmp> wrote in
> <news:iJCdnZN2TMr8MlneRVn-rg@mozilla.org>:
> 
>>> It generally works fine on Usenet and in mailing lists, and has
>>> for many years.  Snipping while leaving enough to show what's
>>> already been tried takes a bit of practice, but it's not that
>>> hard to do.
>>>
>>> And a no-snipping policy for anything gated to a mailing list is
>>> a bad idea.  E-mails are pushed rather than pulled, so the client
>>> has less choice in what should be gotten.
>> and then there's the Microsoft newsgroups.  Lot of brainy people
>> there.  You post a message there, someone replies, top posting it,
>> then they have their sig file delimiter after their response, but
>> before yours.  So now, when you reply to that, everything below
>> their reply gets tossed out.
> 
> That's all true;  IME, the MS groups are the best (worst) example of
> what happens when there is complete tolerance for any posting style
> anyone chooses to employ.  Things used to be somewhat better there, in
> the days before MS put their marketing dept. in charge of the MVP
> program.  Better in terms of readability and in terms of content, I
> mean.  There's still good info, but the S/N ratio of the MVPs' output
> has dropped an awful lot.

Also, Outlook (Express or not) has a pretty icky quoting style without 
Outlook-QuoteFix or OE-QuoteFix, doesn't it?  That wouldn't help. Here 
on the Mozilla groups, most people will be using a Mozilla product, 
which does it much better.  Even if people top-post and bottom-post and 
intersperse, it will still be more readable because most of them use 
Mozilla or Netscape or SeaMonkey or Thunderbird.

(I'm not MS-bashing, just stating what I believe are facts.)
-- 
Yay!
0
Matt
1/11/2006 9:37:25 AM
On 01/10/06 22:41, Leonidas Jones wrote:
> DynaBMan wrote:
>> On 1/10/2006 8:40 PM The Real Bev loudly proclaimed:
>>
>>> DynaBMan wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/10/2006 6:45 PM Chris Ilias loudly proclaimed:
>>>>
>>>>> _Peter In MN(Brrrr)_ spoke thusly on 10/01/2006 6:55 PM:
>>>>>> Hi Q and Chris,
>>>>>> Where are all the posts.  For once I may be ahead of the pack?
>>>>>> Its only 27 here today.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a brand new group, that hasn't even existed for 24 hours. 
>>>>> (My original post was sent before news.mozilla.org was pointed to 
>>>>> Giganews.) Don't worry about traffic.
>>>>
>>>> So let me get this straight.  I can now remove the 
>>>> secnews.netscape.com server and use these newsgroups instead.  Is 
>>>> that correct?
>>>
>>> My guess is 'yeah.'  Call me a sentimental fool, but I'll miss the 
>>> old server.
>>>
>> I will sure miss the *ZERO* amount of spam on the secure server.
>>
> 
> Well, I'll still be supporting there, as long as people post.  These 
> groups are the wave of the future though.
> 
> Lee

Posting seems to be faster, too.  Maybe it's because none of the SSL 
stuff has to be calculated, and Giganews probably has a much more 
powerful setup.
-- 
Yay!
0
Matt
1/11/2006 9:39:04 AM
Matt Nordhoff wrote:

<snip>
> 
> Posting seems to be faster, too.  Maybe it's because none of the SSL
> stuff has to be calculated, and Giganews probably has a much more
> powerful setup.

Certainly quick yesterday to get several lost connection messages! However,
the problem might have been at my end - re-install of Linux yesterday - or
somewhere in between - weird connection problems over the past month so far
only affecting Linux and Firefox combination.

Graham
0
Graham
1/11/2006 10:15:32 AM
Chris Ilias wrote:
> _Irwin Greenwald_ spoke thusly on 11/01/2006 12:26 AM:
>> I must have missed some posting guidelines for this server.  Got a
>> reference?
> 
> Geeze, even my fellow Champs aren't reading the documentation. :-(
> All the info you need is here: <http://ilias.ca/newsserverinfo.html>.

Please excuse me Chris if you just heard my laughter.  :-[
0
Don
1/11/2006 11:58:00 AM
On 01/11/06 04:39, Matt Nordhoff wrote:
> On 01/10/06 22:41, Leonidas Jones wrote:
>> DynaBMan wrote:
>>> On 1/10/2006 8:40 PM The Real Bev loudly proclaimed:
>>>
>>>> DynaBMan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/10/2006 6:45 PM Chris Ilias loudly proclaimed:
>>>>>
>>>>>> _Peter In MN(Brrrr)_ spoke thusly on 10/01/2006 6:55 PM:
>>>>>>> Hi Q and Chris,
>>>>>>> Where are all the posts.  For once I may be ahead of the pack?
>>>>>>> Its only 27 here today.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is a brand new group, that hasn't even existed for 24 hours. 
>>>>>> (My original post was sent before news.mozilla.org was pointed to 
>>>>>> Giganews.) Don't worry about traffic.
>>>>>
>>>>> So let me get this straight.  I can now remove the 
>>>>> secnews.netscape.com server and use these newsgroups instead.  Is 
>>>>> that correct?
>>>>
>>>> My guess is 'yeah.'  Call me a sentimental fool, but I'll miss the 
>>>> old server.
>>>>
>>> I will sure miss the *ZERO* amount of spam on the secure server.
>>>
>>
>> Well, I'll still be supporting there, as long as people post.  These 
>> groups are the wave of the future though.
>>
>> Lee
> 
> Posting seems to be faster, too.  Maybe it's because none of the SSL 
> stuff has to be calculated, and Giganews probably has a much more 
> powerful setup.

Sending the post is faster, but it doesn't seem to show up on the server 
for a minute or two. Huh.
-- 
Yay!
0
Matt
1/11/2006 12:02:06 PM
Bob Henson wrote:
> �Q� wrote:
> 
>>> Lee, I feel it's going to make the task of the Champs much harder.
> 
>> It generally works fine on Usenet and in mailing lists, and has for
>> many years.  Snipping while leaving enough to show what's already been
>> tried takes a bit of practice, but it's not that hard to do.
>>
>> And a no-snipping policy for anything gated to a mailing list is a bad
>> idea.  E-mails are pushed rather than pulled, so the client has less
>> choice in what should be gotten.
>>
> 
> Implicit in what you say is that the e-mails take up local disk space,
> as distinct from the news server's space. It could become quite a
> hardship to those with low disk capacity. Snipping and answering each
> point as it arises is by far the best way and most economical way anyway
> - it worked fine on Fidonet before the days of widespread Internet usage
> and when we had to pay for our own mail transmissions. Sweet reason is
> the answer, and I would suggest that if, for example, the Champs find
> threads harder to follow here then a request to the users to leave in
> more information, or whatever was needed, would certainly be well
> received by most.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Bob
> 
Low disk space Bob?  Surely you just.  Currently I have 65GB left and I 
have bookoo files, but no video files. My compressed e-mail backup files 
from 1997 only consume 200MB in which I have 1/10th bookoo files.

FWIK you can't buy a HD of less than 180GB today. =-O

Don
0
Don
1/11/2006 12:12:16 PM
On 01/11/06 07:12, Don Nickell wrote:
> Bob Henson wrote:
>> »Q« wrote:
>>
>>>> Lee, I feel it's going to make the task of the Champs much harder.
>>
>>> It generally works fine on Usenet and in mailing lists, and has for
>>> many years.  Snipping while leaving enough to show what's already been
>>> tried takes a bit of practice, but it's not that hard to do.
>>>
>>> And a no-snipping policy for anything gated to a mailing list is a bad
>>> idea.  E-mails are pushed rather than pulled, so the client has less
>>> choice in what should be gotten.
>>>
>>
>> Implicit in what you say is that the e-mails take up local disk space,
>> as distinct from the news server's space. It could become quite a
>> hardship to those with low disk capacity. Snipping and answering each
>> point as it arises is by far the best way and most economical way anyway
>> - it worked fine on Fidonet before the days of widespread Internet usage
>> and when we had to pay for our own mail transmissions. Sweet reason is
>> the answer, and I would suggest that if, for example, the Champs find
>> threads harder to follow here then a request to the users to leave in
>> more information, or whatever was needed, would certainly be well
>> received by most.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Bob
>>
> Low disk space Bob?  Surely you just.  Currently I have 65GB left and I 
> have bookoo files, but no video files. My compressed e-mail backup files 
> from 1997 only consume 200MB in which I have 1/10th bookoo files.

Well, I'm stuck on a 9.5 GB and 9.4 GB partition at the moment. With 
Thunderbird profile backups taking more than 300 MiB each, I frequently 
get down to less than 1 GiB of free space.

> FWIK you can't buy a HD of less than 180GB today. =-O

Sure you can:

<URL:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148051>

And 40 GB hard drives are common in low-end computers. It's really 
enough for most people, though it's not very impressive.

Though, for a good computer, I'd say you'd usually buy at least a 120 GB 
or 250 GB hard drive, but you could get a much smaller one if you wanted to.

> Don
-- 
Yay!
0
Matt
1/11/2006 12:27:02 PM
On 11.01.2006 13:27, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Matt Nordhoff 
to generate the following:? :

> On 01/11/06 07:12, Don Nickell wrote:
>
>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>
>>> »Q« wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Lee, I feel it's going to make the task of the Champs much harder.
>>>>
>>>
>>>> It generally works fine on Usenet and in mailing lists, and has for
>>>> many years.  Snipping while leaving enough to show what's already been
>>>> tried takes a bit of practice, but it's not that hard to do.
>>>>
>>>> And a no-snipping policy for anything gated to a mailing list is a bad
>>>> idea.  E-mails are pushed rather than pulled, so the client has less
>>>> choice in what should be gotten.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Implicit in what you say is that the e-mails take up local disk space,
>>> as distinct from the news server's space. It could become quite a
>>> hardship to those with low disk capacity. Snipping and answering each
>>> point as it arises is by far the best way and most economical way 
>>> anyway
>>> - it worked fine on Fidonet before the days of widespread Internet 
>>> usage
>>> and when we had to pay for our own mail transmissions. Sweet reason is
>>> the answer, and I would suggest that if, for example, the Champs find
>>> threads harder to follow here then a request to the users to leave in
>>> more information, or whatever was needed, would certainly be well
>>> received by most.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>> Low disk space Bob?  Surely you just.  Currently I have 65GB left and 
>> I have bookoo files, but no video files. My compressed e-mail backup 
>> files from 1997 only consume 200MB in which I have 1/10th bookoo files.
>
>
> Well, I'm stuck on a 9.5 GB and 9.4 GB partition at the moment. With 
> Thunderbird profile backups taking more than 300 MiB each, I 
> frequently get down to less than 1 GiB of free space.
>
>> FWIK you can't buy a HD of less than 180GB today. =-O
>
>
> Sure you can:
>
> <URL:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148051>
>
> And 40 GB hard drives are common in low-end computers. It's really 
> enough for most people, though it's not very impressive.
>
> Though, for a good computer, I'd say you'd usually buy at least a 120 
> GB or 250 GB hard drive, but you could get a much smaller one if you 
> wanted to.
>
>> Don
>
just had a 14.5GB HD burn out on the old box.... luckilly, no damage 
done, as the data is on the new box.  Imagine though, a 250GB burns out 
on ya! 
OK - a backup....
and guess just *where* that backup is???? 
yepp, you got it right, first guess!
Now, go figure....  :-[ :-[ :-(

reg
0
squaredancer
1/11/2006 12:36:33 PM
On 01/11/06 07:36, squaredancer wrote:
> On 11.01.2006 13:27, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Matt Nordhoff 
> to generate the following:? :
> 
>> On 01/11/06 07:12, Don Nickell wrote:
>>
>>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>>
>>>> »Q« wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Lee, I feel it's going to make the task of the Champs much harder.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It generally works fine on Usenet and in mailing lists, and has for
>>>>> many years.  Snipping while leaving enough to show what's already been
>>>>> tried takes a bit of practice, but it's not that hard to do.
>>>>>
>>>>> And a no-snipping policy for anything gated to a mailing list is a bad
>>>>> idea.  E-mails are pushed rather than pulled, so the client has less
>>>>> choice in what should be gotten.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Implicit in what you say is that the e-mails take up local disk space,
>>>> as distinct from the news server's space. It could become quite a
>>>> hardship to those with low disk capacity. Snipping and answering each
>>>> point as it arises is by far the best way and most economical way 
>>>> anyway
>>>> - it worked fine on Fidonet before the days of widespread Internet 
>>>> usage
>>>> and when we had to pay for our own mail transmissions. Sweet reason is
>>>> the answer, and I would suggest that if, for example, the Champs find
>>>> threads harder to follow here then a request to the users to leave in
>>>> more information, or whatever was needed, would certainly be well
>>>> received by most.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>>
>>> Low disk space Bob?  Surely you just.  Currently I have 65GB left and 
>>> I have bookoo files, but no video files. My compressed e-mail backup 
>>> files from 1997 only consume 200MB in which I have 1/10th bookoo files.
>>
>>
>> Well, I'm stuck on a 9.5 GB and 9.4 GB partition at the moment. With 
>> Thunderbird profile backups taking more than 300 MiB each, I 
>> frequently get down to less than 1 GiB of free space.
>>
>>> FWIK you can't buy a HD of less than 180GB today. =-O
>>
>>
>> Sure you can:
>>
>> <URL:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148051>
>>
>> And 40 GB hard drives are common in low-end computers. It's really 
>> enough for most people, though it's not very impressive.
>>
>> Though, for a good computer, I'd say you'd usually buy at least a 120 
>> GB or 250 GB hard drive, but you could get a much smaller one if you 
>> wanted to.
>>
>>> Don
>>
> just had a 14.5GB HD burn out on the old box.... luckilly, no damage 
> done, as the data is on the new box.  Imagine though, a 250GB burns out 
> on ya! OK - a backup....
> and guess just *where* that backup is???? yepp, you got it right, first 
> guess!
> Now, go figure....  :-[ :-[ :-(
> 
> reg

I only got my first computer in 2002, my smallest hard drive is an 80 GB 
Maxtor (and I killed it a while ago). :-(

I have noticed that I do have a bit of a collected of hardware, but not 
really old hardware.
-- 
Yay!
0
Matt
1/11/2006 12:38:49 PM
Matt Nordhoff wrote:
> On 01/11/06 07:12, Don Nickell wrote:
>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>> »Q« wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Lee, I feel it's going to make the task of the Champs much harder.
>>>
>>>> It generally works fine on Usenet and in mailing lists, and has for
>>>> many years.  Snipping while leaving enough to show what's already been
>>>> tried takes a bit of practice, but it's not that hard to do.
>>>>
>>>> And a no-snipping policy for anything gated to a mailing list is a bad
>>>> idea.  E-mails are pushed rather than pulled, so the client has less
>>>> choice in what should be gotten.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Implicit in what you say is that the e-mails take up local disk space,
>>> as distinct from the news server's space. It could become quite a
>>> hardship to those with low disk capacity. Snipping and answering each
>>> point as it arises is by far the best way and most economical way anyway
>>> - it worked fine on Fidonet before the days of widespread Internet usage
>>> and when we had to pay for our own mail transmissions. Sweet reason is
>>> the answer, and I would suggest that if, for example, the Champs find
>>> threads harder to follow here then a request to the users to leave in
>>> more information, or whatever was needed, would certainly be well
>>> received by most.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>> Low disk space Bob?  Surely you just.  Currently I have 65GB left and 
>> I have bookoo files, but no video files. My compressed e-mail backup 
>> files from 1997 only consume 200MB in which I have 1/10th bookoo files.
> 
> Well, I'm stuck on a 9.5 GB and 9.4 GB partition at the moment. With 
> Thunderbird profile backups taking more than 300 MiB each, I frequently 
> get down to less than 1 GiB of free space.


Hmmm...insert replying all ready.  You adapt quickly Matt.  ;-)

300 MB of profile BU?  Mine are only 10BM.  What have you got in yours? 
Did you include the kitchen sink?  ;-)

Jesting Don



> 
>> FWIK you can't buy a HD of less than 180GB today. =-O
> 
> Sure you can:
> 
> <URL:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148051>
> 
> And 40 GB hard drives are common in low-end computers. It's really 
> enough for most people, though it's not very impressive.
> 
> Though, for a good computer, I'd say you'd usually buy at least a 120 GB 
> or 250 GB hard drive, but you could get a much smaller one if you wanted 
> to.
> 
>> Don
0
Don
1/11/2006 12:39:10 PM
On 01/11/06 07:39, Don Nickell wrote:
> Hmmm...insert replying all ready.  You adapt quickly Matt.  ;-)
> 
> 300 MB of profile BU?  Mine are only 10BM.  What have you got in yours? 
> Did you include the kitchen sink?  ;-)
> 
> Jesting Don

I get a lot of email. Lots of mailing lists. And I download newsgroups 
for offline use. My profile is currently 1.5 GB. 8-)
-- 
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0
Matt
1/11/2006 12:46:34 PM
On 01/11/06 07:02, Matt Nordhoff wrote:
> On 01/11/06 04:39, Matt Nordhoff wrote:
>> On 01/10/06 22:41, Leonidas Jones wrote:
>>> DynaBMan wrote:
>>>> On 1/10/2006 8:40 PM The Real Bev loudly proclaimed:
>>>>
>>>>> DynaBMan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/10/2006 6:45 PM Chris Ilias loudly proclaimed:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _Peter In MN(Brrrr)_ spoke thusly on 10/01/2006 6:55 PM:
>>>>>>>> Hi Q and Chris,
>>>>>>>> Where are all the posts.  For once I may be ahead of the pack?
>>>>>>>> Its only 27 here today.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is a brand new group, that hasn't even existed for 24 hours. 
>>>>>>> (My original post was sent before news.mozilla.org was pointed to 
>>>>>>> Giganews.) Don't worry about traffic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So let me get this straight.  I can now remove the 
>>>>>> secnews.netscape.com server and use these newsgroups instead.  Is 
>>>>>> that correct?
>>>>>
>>>>> My guess is 'yeah.'  Call me a sentimental fool, but I'll miss the 
>>>>> old server.
>>>>>
>>>> I will sure miss the *ZERO* amount of spam on the secure server.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well, I'll still be supporting there, as long as people post.  These 
>>> groups are the wave of the future though.
>>>
>>> Lee
>>
>> Posting seems to be faster, too.  Maybe it's because none of the SSL 
>> stuff has to be calculated, and Giganews probably has a much more 
>> powerful setup.
> 
> Sending the post is faster, but it doesn't seem to show up on the server 
> for a minute or two. Huh.

Except sometimes messages do show up instantly.
-- 
Yay!
0
Matt
1/11/2006 12:47:07 PM
Bob Henson wrote:

> �Q� wrote:
> 
> 
>>>Lee, I feel it's going to make the task of the Champs much harder.
> 
> 
>>It generally works fine on Usenet and in mailing lists, and has for
>>many years.  Snipping while leaving enough to show what's already been
>>tried takes a bit of practice, but it's not that hard to do.
>>
>>And a no-snipping policy for anything gated to a mailing list is a bad
>>idea.  E-mails are pushed rather than pulled, so the client has less
>>choice in what should be gotten.
>>
> 
> 
> Implicit in what you say is that the e-mails take up local disk space,
> as distinct from the news server's space. It could become quite a
> hardship to those with low disk capacity. Snipping and answering each
> point as it arises is by far the best way and most economical way anyway
> - it worked fine on Fidonet before the days of widespread Internet usage
> and when we had to pay for our own mail transmissions. Sweet reason is
> the answer, and I would suggest that if, for example, the Champs find
> threads harder to follow here then a request to the users to leave in
> more information, or whatever was needed, would certainly be well
> received by most.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Bob
> 
I'm sorry to say, but the Champs no longer have the power on this 
newsgroup server as they had on the secnews.  That power was stripped 
away, then this news server went public.  They no longer can say what 
should and should not be done.  They can't say to bottom post, or 
watch your language, or they can't cancel posting, and they can't 
close threads.  All they can do is make recommendations.
0
gwtc
1/11/2006 7:03:02 PM
Matt Nordhoff wrote:

> On 01/11/06 07:36, squaredancer wrote:
> 
>>On 11.01.2006 13:27, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Matt Nordhoff 
>>to generate the following:? :
>>
>>
>>>On 01/11/06 07:12, Don Nickell wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bob Henson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>»Q« wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Lee, I feel it's going to make the task of the Champs much harder.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It generally works fine on Usenet and in mailing lists, and has for
>>>>>>many years.  Snipping while leaving enough to show what's already been
>>>>>>tried takes a bit of practice, but it's not that hard to do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And a no-snipping policy for anything gated to a mailing list is a bad
>>>>>>idea.  E-mails are pushed rather than pulled, so the client has less
>>>>>>choice in what should be gotten.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Implicit in what you say is that the e-mails take up local disk space,
>>>>>as distinct from the news server's space. It could become quite a
>>>>>hardship to those with low disk capacity. Snipping and answering each
>>>>>point as it arises is by far the best way and most economical way 
>>>>>anyway
>>>>>- it worked fine on Fidonet before the days of widespread Internet 
>>>>>usage
>>>>>and when we had to pay for our own mail transmissions. Sweet reason is
>>>>>the answer, and I would suggest that if, for example, the Champs find
>>>>>threads harder to follow here then a request to the users to leave in
>>>>>more information, or whatever was needed, would certainly be well
>>>>>received by most.
>>>>>
>>>>>Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>Bob
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Low disk space Bob?  Surely you just.  Currently I have 65GB left and 
>>>>I have bookoo files, but no video files. My compressed e-mail backup 
>>>>files from 1997 only consume 200MB in which I have 1/10th bookoo files.
>>>
>>>
>>>Well, I'm stuck on a 9.5 GB and 9.4 GB partition at the moment. With 
>>>Thunderbird profile backups taking more than 300 MiB each, I 
>>>frequently get down to less than 1 GiB of free space.
>>>
>>>
>>>>FWIK you can't buy a HD of less than 180GB today. =-O
>>>
>>>
>>>Sure you can:
>>>
>>><URL:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148051>
>>>
>>>And 40 GB hard drives are common in low-end computers. It's really 
>>>enough for most people, though it's not very impressive.
>>>
>>>Though, for a good computer, I'd say you'd usually buy at least a 120 
>>>GB or 250 GB hard drive, but you could get a much smaller one if you 
>>>wanted to.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Don
>>>
>>just had a 14.5GB HD burn out on the old box.... luckilly, no damage 
>>done, as the data is on the new box.  Imagine though, a 250GB burns out 
>>on ya! OK - a backup....
>>and guess just *where* that backup is???? yepp, you got it right, first 
>>guess!
>>Now, go figure....  :-[ :-[ :-(
>>
>>reg
> 
> 
> I only got my first computer in 2002, my smallest hard drive is an 80 GB 
> Maxtor (and I killed it a while ago). :-(
> 
> I have noticed that I do have a bit of a collected of hardware, but not 
> really old hardware.
I still have a couple of 5 gig hard drives around.  Oh, wait a minute, 
I do have a 250 MB one still sitting here.
0
gwtc
1/11/2006 7:05:16 PM
gwtc wrote:
> Matt Nordhoff wrote:
> 
>> On 01/11/06 07:36, squaredancer wrote:
>>
>>> On 11.01.2006 13:27, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Matt 
>>> Nordhoff to generate the following:? :
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 01/11/06 07:12, Don Nickell wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> »Q« wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lee, I feel it's going to make the task of the Champs much harder.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It generally works fine on Usenet and in mailing lists, and has for
>>>>>>> many years.  Snipping while leaving enough to show what's already 
>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>> tried takes a bit of practice, but it's not that hard to do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And a no-snipping policy for anything gated to a mailing list is 
>>>>>>> a bad
>>>>>>> idea.  E-mails are pushed rather than pulled, so the client has less
>>>>>>> choice in what should be gotten.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Implicit in what you say is that the e-mails take up local disk 
>>>>>> space,
>>>>>> as distinct from the news server's space. It could become quite a
>>>>>> hardship to those with low disk capacity. Snipping and answering each
>>>>>> point as it arises is by far the best way and most economical way 
>>>>>> anyway
>>>>>> - it worked fine on Fidonet before the days of widespread Internet 
>>>>>> usage
>>>>>> and when we had to pay for our own mail transmissions. Sweet 
>>>>>> reason is
>>>>>> the answer, and I would suggest that if, for example, the Champs find
>>>>>> threads harder to follow here then a request to the users to leave in
>>>>>> more information, or whatever was needed, would certainly be well
>>>>>> received by most.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Low disk space Bob?  Surely you just.  Currently I have 65GB left 
>>>>> and I have bookoo files, but no video files. My compressed e-mail 
>>>>> backup files from 1997 only consume 200MB in which I have 1/10th 
>>>>> bookoo files.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, I'm stuck on a 9.5 GB and 9.4 GB partition at the moment. With 
>>>> Thunderbird profile backups taking more than 300 MiB each, I 
>>>> frequently get down to less than 1 GiB of free space.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> FWIK you can't buy a HD of less than 180GB today. =-O
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sure you can:
>>>>
>>>> <URL:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148051>
>>>>
>>>> And 40 GB hard drives are common in low-end computers. It's really 
>>>> enough for most people, though it's not very impressive.
>>>>
>>>> Though, for a good computer, I'd say you'd usually buy at least a 
>>>> 120 GB or 250 GB hard drive, but you could get a much smaller one if 
>>>> you wanted to.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Don
>>>>
>>>>
>>> just had a 14.5GB HD burn out on the old box.... luckilly, no damage 
>>> done, as the data is on the new box.  Imagine though, a 250GB burns 
>>> out on ya! OK - a backup....
>>> and guess just *where* that backup is???? yepp, you got it right, 
>>> first guess!
>>> Now, go figure....  :-[ :-[ :-(
>>>
>>> reg
>>
>> I only got my first computer in 2002, my smallest hard drive is an 80 
>> GB Maxtor (and I killed it a while ago). :-(
>>
>> I have noticed that I do have a bit of a collected of hardware, but 
>> not really old hardware.
> 
> I still have a couple of 5 gig hard drives around.  Oh, wait a minute, I 
> do have a 250 MB one still sitting here.

since we're at it: I still have an Escom BlackMax booksize (like a DIN 
A4 x 4.5 cm) 286 with 4 MB RAM/40MB HD. Should still work OK, except the 
battery on the motherboard is dead and the original FD died and had to 
be replaced.

BR,
Gudmund
0
Gudmund
1/11/2006 7:17:44 PM
On 11.01.2006 20:05, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  gwtc to 
generate the following:? :

> Matt Nordhoff wrote:
>
>> On 01/11/06 07:36, squaredancer wrote:
>>
>>> On 11.01.2006 13:27, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Matt 
>>> Nordhoff to generate the following:? :
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 01/11/06 07:12, Don Nickell wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> »Q« wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lee, I feel it's going to make the task of the Champs much harder.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It generally works fine on Usenet and in mailing lists, and has for
>>>>>>> many years.  Snipping while leaving enough to show what's 
>>>>>>> already been
>>>>>>> tried takes a bit of practice, but it's not that hard to do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And a no-snipping policy for anything gated to a mailing list is 
>>>>>>> a bad
>>>>>>> idea.  E-mails are pushed rather than pulled, so the client has 
>>>>>>> less
>>>>>>> choice in what should be gotten.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Implicit in what you say is that the e-mails take up local disk 
>>>>>> space,
>>>>>> as distinct from the news server's space. It could become quite a
>>>>>> hardship to those with low disk capacity. Snipping and answering 
>>>>>> each
>>>>>> point as it arises is by far the best way and most economical way 
>>>>>> anyway
>>>>>> - it worked fine on Fidonet before the days of widespread 
>>>>>> Internet usage
>>>>>> and when we had to pay for our own mail transmissions. Sweet 
>>>>>> reason is
>>>>>> the answer, and I would suggest that if, for example, the Champs 
>>>>>> find
>>>>>> threads harder to follow here then a request to the users to 
>>>>>> leave in
>>>>>> more information, or whatever was needed, would certainly be well
>>>>>> received by most.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Low disk space Bob?  Surely you just.  Currently I have 65GB left 
>>>>> and I have bookoo files, but no video files. My compressed e-mail 
>>>>> backup files from 1997 only consume 200MB in which I have 1/10th 
>>>>> bookoo files.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, I'm stuck on a 9.5 GB and 9.4 GB partition at the moment. 
>>>> With Thunderbird profile backups taking more than 300 MiB each, I 
>>>> frequently get down to less than 1 GiB of free space.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> FWIK you can't buy a HD of less than 180GB today. =-O
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sure you can:
>>>>
>>>> <URL:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148051>
>>>>
>>>> And 40 GB hard drives are common in low-end computers. It's really 
>>>> enough for most people, though it's not very impressive.
>>>>
>>>> Though, for a good computer, I'd say you'd usually buy at least a 
>>>> 120 GB or 250 GB hard drive, but you could get a much smaller one 
>>>> if you wanted to.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Don
>>>>
>>>>
>>> just had a 14.5GB HD burn out on the old box.... luckilly, no damage 
>>> done, as the data is on the new box.  Imagine though, a 250GB burns 
>>> out on ya! OK - a backup....
>>> and guess just *where* that backup is???? yepp, you got it right, 
>>> first guess!
>>> Now, go figure....  :-[ :-[ :-(
>>>
>>> reg
>>
>>
>>
>> I only got my first computer in 2002, my smallest hard drive is an 80 
>> GB Maxtor (and I killed it a while ago). :-(
>>
>> I have noticed that I do have a bit of a collected of hardware, but 
>> not really old hardware.
>
> I still have a couple of 5 gig hard drives around.  Oh, wait a minute, 
> I do have a 250 MB one still sitting here.

cor eh! do you remember what they cost, back in the "good old days" ??  
I would like to have that kind of money now, as a retirement bonus.....  
:'( :'( :'(

reg
0
squaredancer
1/11/2006 8:59:44 PM
On 11.01.2006 20:03, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  gwtc to 
generate the following:? :

> Bob Henson wrote:
>
>> �Q� wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> Lee, I feel it's going to make the task of the Champs much harder.
>>>
>>
>>
>>> It generally works fine on Usenet and in mailing lists, and has for
>>> many years.  Snipping while leaving enough to show what's already been
>>> tried takes a bit of practice, but it's not that hard to do.
>>>
>>> And a no-snipping policy for anything gated to a mailing list is a bad
>>> idea.  E-mails are pushed rather than pulled, so the client has less
>>> choice in what should be gotten.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Implicit in what you say is that the e-mails take up local disk space,
>> as distinct from the news server's space. It could become quite a
>> hardship to those with low disk capacity. Snipping and answering each
>> point as it arises is by far the best way and most economical way anyway
>> - it worked fine on Fidonet before the days of widespread Internet usage
>> and when we had to pay for our own mail transmissions. Sweet reason is
>> the answer, and I would suggest that if, for example, the Champs find
>> threads harder to follow here then a request to the users to leave in
>> more information, or whatever was needed, would certainly be well
>> received by most.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Bob
>>
> I'm sorry to say, but the Champs no longer have the power on this 
> newsgroup server as they had on the secnews.  That power was stripped 
> away, then this news server went public.  They no longer can say what 
> should and should not be done.  They can't say to bottom post, or 
> watch your language, or they can't cancel posting, and they can't 
> close threads.  All they can do is make recommendations.

errrr....ummmmmm .....
they can still *say* those things....

reg
0
squaredancer
1/11/2006 9:00:55 PM
gwtc wrote:
> Bob Henson wrote:
> 
>> �Q� wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> Lee, I feel it's going to make the task of the Champs much harder.
>>
>>
>>> It generally works fine on Usenet and in mailing lists, and has for
>>> many years.  Snipping while leaving enough to show what's already been
>>> tried takes a bit of practice, but it's not that hard to do.
>>>
>>> And a no-snipping policy for anything gated to a mailing list is a bad
>>> idea.  E-mails are pushed rather than pulled, so the client has less
>>> choice in what should be gotten.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Implicit in what you say is that the e-mails take up local disk space,
>> as distinct from the news server's space. It could become quite a
>> hardship to those with low disk capacity. Snipping and answering each
>> point as it arises is by far the best way and most economical way anyway
>> - it worked fine on Fidonet before the days of widespread Internet usage
>> and when we had to pay for our own mail transmissions. Sweet reason is
>> the answer, and I would suggest that if, for example, the Champs find
>> threads harder to follow here then a request to the users to leave in
>> more information, or whatever was needed, would certainly be well
>> received by most.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Bob
>>
> I'm sorry to say, but the Champs no longer have the power on this 
> newsgroup server as they had on the secnews.  That power was stripped 
> away, then this news server went public.  They no longer can say what 
> should and should not be done.  They can't say to bottom post, or watch 
> your language, or they can't cancel posting, and they can't close 
> threads.  All they can do is make recommendations.

And as you might expect, it's a mess already.  This morning there were at 
least 2 files that only contained a reply and only the Subject line to 
know what the reply was about.  :-(

I wonder if this means we now have to mung our name and e-mail address so 
that even the Champs don't know who we are.  No longer can we take any 
disagreements off line.  :-(

I think this stinks. Peuweee.  ;-)
0
Don
1/11/2006 11:17:46 PM
Don Nickell wrote:
> gwtc wrote:
>=20
>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>
>>> =BBQ=AB wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Lee, I feel it's going to make the task of the Champs much harder.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> It generally works fine on Usenet and in mailing lists, and has for
>>>> many years.  Snipping while leaving enough to show what's already be=
en
>>>> tried takes a bit of practice, but it's not that hard to do.
>>>>
>>>> And a no-snipping policy for anything gated to a mailing list is a b=
ad
>>>> idea.  E-mails are pushed rather than pulled, so the client has less=

>>>> choice in what should be gotten.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Implicit in what you say is that the e-mails take up local disk space=
,
>>> as distinct from the news server's space. It could become quite a
>>> hardship to those with low disk capacity. Snipping and answering each=

>>> point as it arises is by far the best way and most economical way any=
way
>>> - it worked fine on Fidonet before the days of widespread Internet us=
age
>>> and when we had to pay for our own mail transmissions. Sweet reason i=
s
>>> the answer, and I would suggest that if, for example, the Champs find=

>>> threads harder to follow here then a request to the users to leave in=

>>> more information, or whatever was needed, would certainly be well
>>> received by most.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>> I'm sorry to say, but the Champs no longer have the power on this=20
>> newsgroup server as they had on the secnews.  That power was stripped =

>> away, then this news server went public.  They no longer can say what =

>> should and should not be done.  They can't say to bottom post, or=20
>> watch your language, or they can't cancel posting, and they can't=20
>> close threads.  All they can do is make recommendations.
>=20
>=20
> And as you might expect, it's a mess already.  This morning there were =

> at least 2 files that only contained a reply and only the Subject line =

> to know what the reply was about.  :-(
>=20
> I wonder if this means we now have to mung our name and e-mail address =

> so that even the Champs don't know who we are.  No longer can we take=20
> any disagreements off line.  :-(
>=20
> I think this stinks. Peuweee.  ;-)

I dont munge my address, regardless of where I post. Spam me and you pay =

for it <g>

It will take a certain amount of adjustment (I still have to learn how=20
to effectively snip for example <g>) but in time, the group will muddle=20
thru. At least thats my opinion.
0
Moz
1/11/2006 11:34:17 PM
Don Nickell <dnickell@icehouse.net> wrote in
<news:xImdncngoYyjD1jeRVn-og@mozilla.org>:

> And as you might expect, it's a mess already.  This morning there
> were at least 2 files that only contained a reply and only the
> Subject line to know what the reply was about.  :-(

I didn't see those, but the solution is the same as it ever was.
Encourage those posters to include enough quoted text to provide
context.

> I wonder if this means we now have to mung our name and e-mail
> address so that even the Champs don't know who we are.  No longer
> can we take any disagreements off line.  :-(

I guess munging is a big issue for some, so I might as well post my
thoughts on it.  Note that I don't mung my address, but I've got pretty
good spam-killing filters.  Spam-kills are logged, and a lot of spam is
sent to my address.

For many years, GRC.com ran a private server, i.e., one that did not
peer with Usenet, and no username/password was required to access it.
Only very rarely did anyone there report getting spam sent to addresses
they used there.  (Now the server does require password, but it wasn't
implemented as an anti-spam measure.)

IMO, that's the closest example to what we have here;  though Giganews'
servers will serve news.mozilla.org posts to clients, they won't allow
peers to propagate the mozilla groups, so it's essentially a private
server.  ICBW, but I don't expect many address-harvesters to make use
of it.

My address boxcars@gmx.net is only exposed in newsgroups and on web
pages that reproduce Usenet posts.  It gets hit pretty hard with spam.
This may be because it's on a lot of old spam lists, having been in use
for a few years now.  I suspect that address-harvesting bots no longer
trawl through newsgroups, based on people's reports that recently
exposed addresses aren't getting much spam.  That may only be a lull,
though.

My guess is that harvesters had switched to scraping Google Groups
pages for addresses and that Google's implementation of auto-munging
has hurt them.  There's so much munging on Usenet now that I doubt
they'd go back to harvesting there.  ICBW about any or all of this;  I
guess time will tell.

-- 
�Q�
0
ISO
1/12/2006 12:33:08 AM
Don Nickell wrote:
> Matt Nordhoff wrote:
>> On 01/11/06 07:12, Don Nickell wrote:
>>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>>> »Q« wrote:
>>>>
/snip/

> 
> Hmmm...insert replying all ready.  You adapt quickly Matt.  ;-)
> 
> 300 MB of profile BU?  Mine are only 10BM.  What have you got in yours? 
> Did you include the kitchen sink?  ;-)
> 
> Jesting Don
> 

For what its worth, which may not be much, the Posting Etiquette calls 
for bottom posting, not interspersed.

"Top-posting vs bottom-posting

     Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it 
the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates 
about which posting style is better have lead to many flame wars in the 
forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please follow the general 
preference, which is bottom-posting

/snip/


-- 
Leonidas Jones, Mozilla Champion
Learn about the Champs!  http://mozillachampions.ufaq.org
The UFAQ'S http://www.ufaq.org/
http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html
http://mozilla.com   http://mozilla.org
0
Leonidas
1/12/2006 1:10:16 AM
> I dont munge my address, regardless of where I post. Spam me and you pay 
> for it <g>

How much to you pay Dan?  :-P
0
Don
1/12/2006 1:17:53 AM
gwtc wrote:
> Bob Henson wrote:
> 
>> �Q� wrote:
>>

/snip/

ob
>>
> I'm sorry to say, but the Champs no longer have the power on this 
> newsgroup server as they had on the secnews.  That power was stripped 
> away, then this news server went public.  They no longer can say what 
> should and should not be done.  They can't say to bottom post, or watch 
> your language, or they can't cancel posting, and they can't close 
> threads.  All they can do is make recommendations.

Well, the Posting Etiquette does state to bottom post, does call for 
snipping, and does call for civility.

There is a mechanism for removing abusive posts, but it is out of our 
hands, as you note.

Now since you allow us the courtesy of still making recommendations, 
I'll make a couple about snipping. If material is going to be snipped 
from posts, people have to be able to find the snipped material within 
the thread, if they need to.

First of all, when material is snipped, it is a good idea to indicate 
that it has been snipped.  That way, if the quote is insufficient to 
give a particular reader the context, he will know to go back in the thread.

I think it is also well to leave the attribution lines intact, which can 
help a user to find the particular message within a thread that he needs.

For standard newsgroup general discussion threads, this is the best 
course. For specific tech support threads, it definitely slows us up, 
but using my recommendations will help.

I think the old secnews system worked better, for tech support issues 
only.  Where it broke down over there was in the off topic threads or 
sub threads, where we were supposed to snip, but often didn't. Off topic 
material was always game for snipping.

Once I adapted to the secnews guidelines, i saw the beauty of it, for 
the tech support nature of the groups.  But we are here now, so i shall 
attempt to abide by the etiquette.  Bear with me if I forget for awhile.

Lee

-- 
Leonidas Jones, Mozilla Champion
Learn about the Champs!  http://mozillachampions.ufaq.org
The UFAQ'S http://www.ufaq.org/
http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html
http://mozilla.com   http://mozilla.org
0
Leonidas
1/12/2006 1:23:35 AM
Don Nickell wrote:
> gwtc wrote:
>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>
>>> �Q� wrote:
>>>
>>>

> 
> And as you might expect, it's a mess already.  This morning there were 
> at least 2 files that only contained a reply and only the Subject line 
> to know what the reply was about.  :-(
> 
> I wonder if this means we now have to mung our name and e-mail address 
> so that even the Champs don't know who we are.  No longer can we take 
> any disagreements off line.  :-(
> 
> I think this stinks. Peuweee.  ;-)

The Posting Etiquette calls for names:

"No anonymous messages.

     If you have something that you are offering for others to read, you 
should be willing to attach your name to it, and to give people the 
ability to reply to you privately about it, in case they feel that a 
public reply would be inappropriate."

Personally, I prefer having an actual name, it personalizes the contact, 
but I've never found it a big enough issue to make any fuss over it.

Munging is perhaps even more frowned upon:

"So-called address munging is frowned upon. Your return address should 
be replyable. If you want to avoid spam, use mail filters, or don't 
post. Other alternatives are not welcome here."

Now I have always done this.  If I have something to say, I should be 
fair enough to attach my name to it, so people know who's saying it. I 
have always posted an address in the clear, so people can contact me off 
group if they have issues with what I post.  Its a secondary address, 
but I do check it. For what its worth, while it gets a little more spam 
then my primary, its not bad, and it has been out in the clear on Usenet 
for years.  That's me, but

I suppose the point I am making is that, in many way, the Posting 
etiquette, if actually followed, is more restrictive then the Posting 
Guidelines were at Secnews. As far who, if anyone, will police it, all I 
know is its not my job anymore.

Lee

-- 
Leonidas Jones, Mozilla Champion
Learn about the Champs!  http://mozillachampions.ufaq.org
The UFAQ'S http://www.ufaq.org/
http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html
http://mozilla.com   http://mozilla.org
0
Leonidas
1/12/2006 1:37:43 AM
Don Nickell wrote:

>>I dont munge my address, regardless of where I post. Spam me and you pay 
>>for it <g>
> 
> 
> How much to you pay Dan?  :-P
this snipping policy makes it hard trying to figure out who said what.
0
gwtc
1/12/2006 1:46:55 AM
Leonidas Jones wrote:

> Don Nickell wrote:
> 
>>gwtc wrote:
>>
>>>Bob Henson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>�Q� wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
> 
> 
>>And as you might expect, it's a mess already.  This morning there were 
>>at least 2 files that only contained a reply and only the Subject line 
>>to know what the reply was about.  :-(
>>
>>I wonder if this means we now have to mung our name and e-mail address 
>>so that even the Champs don't know who we are.  No longer can we take 
>>any disagreements off line.  :-(
>>
>>I think this stinks. Peuweee.  ;-)
> 
> 
> The Posting Etiquette calls for names:
> 
> "No anonymous messages.
> 
>      If you have something that you are offering for others to read, you 
> should be willing to attach your name to it, and to give people the 
> ability to reply to you privately about it, in case they feel that a 
> public reply would be inappropriate."
> 
> Personally, I prefer having an actual name, it personalizes the contact, 
> but I've never found it a big enough issue to make any fuss over it.
> 
> Munging is perhaps even more frowned upon:
> 
> "So-called address munging is frowned upon. Your return address should 
> be replyable. If you want to avoid spam, use mail filters, or don't 
> post. Other alternatives are not welcome here."
> 
> Now I have always done this.  If I have something to say, I should be 
> fair enough to attach my name to it, so people know who's saying it. I 
> have always posted an address in the clear, so people can contact me off 
> group if they have issues with what I post.  Its a secondary address, 
> but I do check it. For what its worth, while it gets a little more spam 
> then my primary, its not bad, and it has been out in the clear on Usenet 
> for years.  That's me, but
> 
> I suppose the point I am making is that, in many way, the Posting 
> etiquette, if actually followed, is more restrictive then the Posting 
> Guidelines were at Secnews. As far who, if anyone, will police it, all I 
> know is its not my job anymore.
> 
> Lee
> 
I get the feeling people are trying to tell me something
0
gwtc
1/12/2006 1:50:13 AM
gwtc wrote:
> Don Nickell wrote:
> 
>>> I dont munge my address, regardless of where I post. Spam me and you 
>>> pay for it <g>
>>
>>
>> How much to you pay Dan?  :-P
> this snipping policy makes it hard trying to figure out who said what.

If snips are noted, and attributions line left, this works better.

Lee

-- 
Leonidas Jones, Mozilla Champion
Learn about the Champs!  http://mozillachampions.ufaq.org
The UFAQ'S http://www.ufaq.org/
http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html
http://mozilla.com   http://mozilla.org
0
Leonidas
1/12/2006 3:09:24 AM
gwtc wrote:
> Leonidas Jones wrote:
>> Don Nickell wrote:
>>> gwtc wrote:
>>>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>>>> �Q� wrote:

/snip/
>>
> I get the feeling people are trying to tell me something

This was certainly not directed at you specifically.

Lee
-- 
Leonidas Jones, Mozilla Champion
Learn about the Champs!  http://mozillachampions.ufaq.org
The UFAQ'S http://www.ufaq.org/
http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html
http://mozilla.com   http://mozilla.org
0
Leonidas
1/12/2006 3:11:33 AM
On 1/11/2006 8:23 PM Leonidas Jones ,sat at the keyboard and poured forth:
> gwtc wrote:
>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>
>>> �Q� wrote:
>>>
>
> /snip/
>
> ob
>>>
>> I'm sorry to say, but the Champs no longer have the power on this
>> newsgroup server as they had on the secnews.  That power was stripped
>> away, then this news server went public.  They no longer can say what
>> should and should not be done.  They can't say to bottom post, or
>> watch your language, or they can't cancel posting, and they can't
>> close threads.  All they can do is make recommendations.
>
> Well, the Posting Etiquette does state to bottom post, does call for
> snipping, and does call for civility.
>
>  </snip>
> Lee
>
Sorry, Lee, but "when in Rome..."

Actually, I think we will all adapt and the longer retention at least
lets one go back and find the original post, if necessary. 

-- 
Jim

"Money cannot buy health, but I'd settle for a diamond-studded wheelchair."
                            -Dorothy Parker
0
MushMorton
1/12/2006 3:31:14 AM
MushMorton wrote:
> On 1/11/2006 8:23 PM Leonidas Jones ,sat at the keyboard and poured forth:
>> gwtc wrote:
>>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>>
>>>> �Q� wrote:
>

/snip/

>>
> Sorry, Lee, but "when in Rome..."
> 
> Actually, I think we will all adapt and the longer retention at least
> lets one go back and find the original post, if necessary. 
> 

Hey, I'm snipping aren't I? :)

It will slow up support efforts, but so be it.

Lee

-- 
Leonidas Jones, Mozilla Champion
Learn about the Champs!  http://mozillachampions.ufaq.org
The UFAQ'S http://www.ufaq.org/
http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html
http://mozilla.com   http://mozilla.org
0
Leonidas
1/12/2006 3:50:04 AM
On 1/11/2006 7:50 PM Pacific, Leonidas Jones wrote:
> MushMorton wrote:
>> On 1/11/2006 8:23 PM Leonidas Jones ,sat at the keyboard and poured forth:
>>> gwtc wrote:
>>>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> �Q� wrote:
> 
> /snip/
> 
>> Sorry, Lee, but "when in Rome..."
>>
>> Actually, I think we will all adapt and the longer retention at least
>> lets one go back and find the original post, if necessary. 
>>
> 
> Hey, I'm snipping aren't I? :)
> 
> It will slow up support efforts, but so be it.
> 
> Lee
> 
If off topic posts are not intermingled with tech discussion posts, the
threads should be considerably shorter!

Irwin

-- 
Irwin Greenwald - Mozilla Champion

Etiquette - http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html
About Profiles -
http://users.adelphia.net/~irwingreenwald/About%20Profiles.html
OE Quotefix - http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/
0
Irwin
1/12/2006 3:59:57 AM
Don Nickell wrote:
> 
>> I dont munge my address, regardless of where I post. Spam me and you 
>> pay for it <g>
> 
> 
> How much to you pay Dan?  :-P

How much do they pay me? They lose their website, thats quite enough 
payment for me <g>
0
Moz
1/12/2006 5:20:49 AM
gwtc wrote:
> Don Nickell wrote:
> 
>>> I dont munge my address, regardless of where I post. Spam me and you 
>>> pay for it <g>
>>
>>
>>
>> How much to you pay Dan?  :-P
> 
> this snipping policy makes it hard trying to figure out who said what.

And try this in an active thread with a real question and see where it 
gets you <g>

I am just trying to follow the guidelines as laid down, and trying to 
figure out a means of adjusting to provide good assistance
0
Moz
1/12/2006 5:22:35 AM
Leonidas Jones wrote:
> gwtc wrote:
> 
>> Don Nickell wrote:
>>
>>>> snip
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> How much to you pay Dan?  :-P
>>
>> snip
> 
> If snips are noted, and attributions line left, this works better.
> 
> Lee
> 

As in the above? Is that the idea? Makes it more confusing to me at 
first glance
0
Moz
1/12/2006 5:24:10 AM
Leonidas Jones wrote:
> Don Nickell wrote:
>=20
>> gwtc wrote:
>>
>>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>>
>>>> =BBQ=AB wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>=20
>>
/snip/
>=20
>=20
> The Posting Etiquette calls for names:
>=20
> "No anonymous messages.
>=20
>     If you have something that you are offering for others to read, you=
=20
> should be willing to attach your name to it, and to give people the=20
> ability to reply to you privately about it, in case they feel that a=20
> public reply would be inappropriate."
>=20
> Personally, I prefer having an actual name, it personalizes the contact=
,=20
> but I've never found it a big enough issue to make any fuss over it.
>=20
> Munging is perhaps even more frowned upon:
>=20
> "So-called address munging is frowned upon. Your return address should =

> be replyable. If you want to avoid spam, use mail filters, or don't=20
> post. Other alternatives are not welcome here."
>=20
> Now I have always done this.  If I have something to say, I should be=20
> fair enough to attach my name to it, so people know who's saying it. I =

> have always posted an address in the clear, so people can contact me of=
f=20
> group if they have issues with what I post.  Its a secondary address,=20
> but I do check it. For what its worth, while it gets a little more spam=
=20
> then my primary, its not bad, and it has been out in the clear on Usene=
t=20
> for years.  That's me, but
>=20
>/snip/
> Lee
>=20

Like Lee, I have always posted with an identifiable email address. My=20
reasons for not using my full name have been hashed out elsewhere and=20
dont bear repeating. However, I dont consider using a nickname as hiding =

anything. Q is Q and squaredancer is squaredancer in my opinion, that is =

how I know them. Regardless of what Q's real name is or what=20
squaredancers is (reg), I recognize them as Q and squaredancer.

Spam is only a problem if you let it be one <g> It isnt a problem here,=20
spammers spam me, they pay for their affrontage
0
Moz
1/12/2006 5:32:41 AM
MushMorton wrote:
> On 1/11/2006 8:23 PM Leonidas Jones ,sat at the keyboard and poured for=
th:
>=20
>>gwtc wrote:
>>
>>>Bob Henson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>=BBQ=AB wrote:
>>>>
>>
>>/snip/
>>
>>ob
>>
>>>/snip/

>>
>=20
> Sorry, Lee, but "when in Rome..."
>=20
> Actually, I think we will all adapt and the longer retention at least
> lets one go back and find the original post, if necessary.=20
>=20

Its not the retention time, its the time and effort required to go back, =

who knows how many posts, to find the information that was snipped (and=20
may be relevent). For example, I read several dozen newsgroups per day,=20
and am active in a couple of dozen threads on any given day. To be able=20
to provide accurate, worthwhile assistance, it would mean re-reading=20
entire threads, and I simply dont have the time available to do that.

Again, tho, thems the rulz, and I am attempting to find alternatives or=20
adjustments that allow me to work within them
0
Moz
1/12/2006 5:39:12 AM
Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:
> MushMorton wrote:
>> On 1/11/2006 8:23 PM Leonidas Jones ,sat at the keyboard and poured 
>> forth:
>>
>>> gwtc wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> �Q� wrote:

/snip/
> 
> Its not the retention time, its the time and effort required to go back, 
> who knows how many posts, to find the information that was snipped (and 
> may be relevent). For example, I read several dozen newsgroups per day, 
> and am active in a couple of dozen threads on any given day. To be able 
> to provide accurate, worthwhile assistance, it would mean re-reading 
> entire threads, and I simply dont have the time available to do that.
> 
> Again, tho, thems the rulz, and I am attempting to find alternatives or 
> adjustments that allow me to work within them

Me too!

Lee

-- 
Leonidas Jones, Mozilla Champion
Learn about the Champs!  http://mozillachampions.ufaq.org
The UFAQ'S http://www.ufaq.org/
http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html
http://mozilla.com   http://mozilla.org
0
Leonidas
1/12/2006 5:49:20 AM
Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:
> MushMorton wrote:
>> On 1/11/2006 8:23 PM Leonidas Jones ,sat at the keyboard and poured 
>> forth:
>>
>>> gwtc wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> �Q� wrote:
>>>>>
>>>
>>> /snip/
>>>
>>> ob
>>>
>>>> /snip/
> 
>>>
>>
>> Sorry, Lee, but "when in Rome..."
>>
>> Actually, I think we will all adapt and the longer retention at least
>> lets one go back and find the original post, if necessary.
> 
> Its not the retention time, its the time and effort required to go back, 
> who knows how many posts, to find the information that was snipped (and 
> may be relevent). For example, I read several dozen newsgroups per day, 
> and am active in a couple of dozen threads on any given day. To be able 
> to provide accurate, worthwhile assistance, it would mean re-reading 
> entire threads, and I simply dont have the time available to do that.
> 
> Again, tho, thems the rulz, and I am attempting to find alternatives or 
> adjustments that allow me to work within them

I'm trying to follow the rules but I want to post a question on Profiles 
and would like to save the responses for future reference.  If I post here 
it will probably be snipped making for many files, but if I post on 
secnews it might go away and I'll be left with these NG and probably a lot 
of snipping.

It's a real point of confusion for me.  I'd appreciate some guidance here.

Thanks,
Don
0
Don
1/12/2006 10:55:10 AM
Don Nickell wrote:
> Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:
>> MushMorton wrote:
>>> On 1/11/2006 8:23 PM Leonidas Jones ,sat at the keyboard and poured 
>>> forth:
>>>> gwtc wrote:
>>>>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>>>>> �Q� wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>> /snip/
>>>> ob
>>>>> /snip/
>>>>
>>> Sorry, Lee, but "when in Rome..."
>>>
>>> Actually, I think we will all adapt and the longer retention at least
>>> lets one go back and find the original post, if necessary.
>>>
>> Its not the retention time, its the time and effort required to go 
>> back, who knows how many posts, to find the information that was 
>> snipped (and may be relevent). For example, I read several dozen 
>> newsgroups per day, and am active in a couple of dozen threads on any 
>> given day. To be able to provide accurate, worthwhile assistance, it 
>> would mean re-reading entire threads, and I simply dont have the time 
>> available to do that.
>>
>> Again, tho, thems the rulz, and I am attempting to find alternatives 
>> or adjustments that allow me to work within them
>>
> I'm trying to follow the rules but I want to post a question on Profiles 
> and would like to save the responses for future reference.  If I post 
> here it will probably be snipped making for many files, but if I post on 
> secnews it might go away and I'll be left with these NG and probably a 
> lot of snipping.
> 
> It's a real point of confusion for me.  I'd appreciate some guidance here.
> 
> Thanks,
> Don

I use to flag the NG messages in Thunderbird I want to keep as 
reference, then use File > Offline > Get Flagged Messages every once in 
a while, so I have them archived locally.

Unfortunately TB doesn't handle the offline messages the way I'd like, 
so acting correctly is required to not erase them inadvertently.

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=290803
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=295599

BR,
Gudmund
0
Gudmund
1/12/2006 12:08:31 PM
On 12.01.2006 12:08 UK Time, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:
> Don Nickell wrote:
>> Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:
>>> MushMorton wrote:
>>>> On 1/11/2006 8:23 PM Leonidas Jones ,sat at the keyboard and poured 
>>>> forth:
>>>>> gwtc wrote:
>>>>>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>>>>>> �Q� wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>> /snip/
>>>>> ob
>>>>>> /snip/
>>>>>
>>>> Sorry, Lee, but "when in Rome..."
>>>>
>>>> Actually, I think we will all adapt and the longer retention at least
>>>> lets one go back and find the original post, if necessary.
>>>>
>>> Its not the retention time, its the time and effort required to go 
>>> back, who knows how many posts, to find the information that was 
>>> snipped (and may be relevent). For example, I read several dozen 
>>> newsgroups per day, and am active in a couple of dozen threads on any 
>>> given day. To be able to provide accurate, worthwhile assistance, it 
>>> would mean re-reading entire threads, and I simply dont have the time 
>>> available to do that.
>>>
>>> Again, tho, thems the rulz, and I am attempting to find alternatives 
>>> or adjustments that allow me to work within them
>>>
>> I'm trying to follow the rules but I want to post a question on 
>> Profiles and would like to save the responses for future reference.  
>> If I post here it will probably be snipped making for many files, but 
>> if I post on secnews it might go away and I'll be left with these NG 
>> and probably a lot of snipping.
>>
>> It's a real point of confusion for me.  I'd appreciate some guidance 
>> here.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Don
> 
> I use to flag the NG messages in Thunderbird I want to keep as 
> reference, then use File > Offline > Get Flagged Messages every once in 
> a while, so I have them archived locally.
> 
> Unfortunately TB doesn't handle the offline messages the way I'd like, 
> so acting correctly is required to not erase them inadvertently.
> 
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=290803
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=295599
> 
> BR,
> Gudmund

Hi Gudmund,

why not simply download the lot for offline searching?

-- 
Herbert Eppel
www.HETranslation.co.uk
0
Herb
1/12/2006 12:10:03 PM
Herb wrote:
> On 12.01.2006 12:08 UK Time, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:
>> Don Nickell wrote:
>>> Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:
>>>> MushMorton wrote:
>>>>> On 1/11/2006 8:23 PM Leonidas Jones ,sat at the keyboard and poured 
>>>>> forth:
>>>>>> gwtc wrote:
>>>>>>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>>>>>>> �Q� wrote:
>>>>>> /snip/
>>>>>> ob
>>>>>>> /snip/
>>>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, Lee, but "when in Rome..."
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, I think we will all adapt and the longer retention at least
>>>>> lets one go back and find the original post, if necessary.
>>>>>
>>>> Its not the retention time, its the time and effort required to go 
>>>> back, who knows how many posts, to find the information that was 
>>>> snipped (and may be relevent). For example, I read several dozen 
>>>> newsgroups per day, and am active in a couple of dozen threads on 
>>>> any given day. To be able to provide accurate, worthwhile 
>>>> assistance, it would mean re-reading entire threads, and I simply 
>>>> dont have the time available to do that.
>>>>
>>>> Again, tho, thems the rulz, and I am attempting to find alternatives 
>>>> or adjustments that allow me to work within them
>>>>
>>> I'm trying to follow the rules but I want to post a question on 
>>> Profiles and would like to save the responses for future reference.  
>>> If I post here it will probably be snipped making for many files, but 
>>> if I post on secnews it might go away and I'll be left with these NG 
>>> and probably a lot of snipping.
>>>
>>> It's a real point of confusion for me.  I'd appreciate some guidance 
>>> here.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Don
>>>
>> I use to flag the NG messages in Thunderbird I want to keep as 
>> reference, then use File > Offline > Get Flagged Messages every once 
>> in a while, so I have them archived locally.
>>
>> Unfortunately TB doesn't handle the offline messages the way I'd like, 
>> so acting correctly is required to not erase them inadvertently.
>>
>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=290803
>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=295599
>>
>> BR,
>> Gudmund
>>
> Hi Gudmund,
> 
> why not simply download the lot for offline searching?

I'm *trying* to keep it lean, especially since I want to go portable as 
soon as I find the time to. My current profile directory weighs in at 
2.16 GB...

BR,
Gudmund
0
Gudmund
1/12/2006 12:32:41 PM
On 12.01.2006 12:32 UK Time, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:
> Herb wrote:
>> On 12.01.2006 12:08 UK Time, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:
>>> Don Nickell wrote:
>>>> Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:
>>>>> MushMorton wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/11/2006 8:23 PM Leonidas Jones ,sat at the keyboard and 
>>>>>> poured forth:
>>>>>>> gwtc wrote:
>>>>>>>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> �Q� wrote:
>>>>>>> /snip/
>>>>>>> ob
>>>>>>>> /snip/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, Lee, but "when in Rome..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually, I think we will all adapt and the longer retention at least
>>>>>> lets one go back and find the original post, if necessary.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Its not the retention time, its the time and effort required to go 
>>>>> back, who knows how many posts, to find the information that was 
>>>>> snipped (and may be relevent). For example, I read several dozen 
>>>>> newsgroups per day, and am active in a couple of dozen threads on 
>>>>> any given day. To be able to provide accurate, worthwhile 
>>>>> assistance, it would mean re-reading entire threads, and I simply 
>>>>> dont have the time available to do that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, tho, thems the rulz, and I am attempting to find 
>>>>> alternatives or adjustments that allow me to work within them
>>>>>
>>>> I'm trying to follow the rules but I want to post a question on 
>>>> Profiles and would like to save the responses for future reference.  
>>>> If I post here it will probably be snipped making for many files, 
>>>> but if I post on secnews it might go away and I'll be left with 
>>>> these NG and probably a lot of snipping.
>>>>
>>>> It's a real point of confusion for me.  I'd appreciate some guidance 
>>>> here.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Don
>>>>
>>> I use to flag the NG messages in Thunderbird I want to keep as 
>>> reference, then use File > Offline > Get Flagged Messages every once 
>>> in a while, so I have them archived locally.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately TB doesn't handle the offline messages the way I'd 
>>> like, so acting correctly is required to not erase them inadvertently.
>>>
>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=290803
>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=295599
>>>
>>> BR,
>>> Gudmund
>>>
>> Hi Gudmund,
>>
>> why not simply download the lot for offline searching?
> 
> I'm *trying* to keep it lean, especially since I want to go portable as 
> soon as I find the time to. My current profile directory weighs in at 
> 2.16 GB...

I dare say deleting large attachments (using Attachment Tools or the 
integrated function in 1.5) would be more effective and efficient than 
selective news message downloading!

-- 
Herbert Eppel
www.HETranslation.co.uk
0
Herb
1/12/2006 12:33:50 PM
On 12.01.2006 02:46, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  gwtc to 
generate the following:? :

> Don Nickell wrote:
>
>>> I dont munge my address, regardless of where I post. Spam me and you 
>>> pay for it <g>
>>
>>
>>
>> How much to you pay Dan?  :-P
>
> this snipping policy makes it hard trying to figure out who said what.

if *everyone* put their *name* under their post - instead of contained 
in a clipped-off sigfile - then we would SEE who posted what...

reg
0
squaredancer
1/12/2006 12:48:52 PM
On 12.01.2006 06:24, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Moz Champion 
(Dan) to generate the following:? :

> Leonidas Jones wrote:
>
>> gwtc wrote:
>>
>>> Don Nickell wrote:
>>>
>>>>> snip
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How much to you pay Dan?  :-P
>>>
>>>
>>> snip
>>
>>
>> If snips are noted, and attributions line left, this works better.
>>
>> Lee
>>
>
> As in the above? Is that the idea? Makes it more confusing to me at 
> first glance

easy to follow---

Lee posted to (anon) and was replied to by (anon)

reg
0
squaredancer
1/12/2006 12:50:11 PM
On 12.01.2006 04:59, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Irwin 
Greenwald to generate the following:? :

>On 1/11/2006 7:50 PM Pacific, Leonidas Jones wrote:
>  
>
>>MushMorton wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>On 1/11/2006 8:23 PM Leonidas Jones ,sat at the keyboard and poured forth:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>gwtc wrote:
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Bob Henson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>�Q� wrote:
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>/snip/
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Sorry, Lee, but "when in Rome..."
>>>
>>>Actually, I think we will all adapt and the longer retention at least
>>>lets one go back and find the original post, if necessary. 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Hey, I'm snipping aren't I? :)
>>
>>It will slow up support efforts, but so be it.
>>
>>Lee
>>
>>    
>>
>If off topic posts are not intermingled with tech discussion posts, the
>threads should be considerably shorter!
>
>Irwin
>
>  
>
hey Iwin.... file an RFE on that....

reg
0
squaredancer
1/12/2006 12:54:58 PM
Herb wrote:
> On 12.01.2006 12:32 UK Time, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:
> 
>> Herb wrote:
>>
>>> On 12.01.2006 12:08 UK Time, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:
>>>
>>>> Don Nickell wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> MushMorton wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1/11/2006 8:23 PM Leonidas Jones ,sat at the keyboard and 
>>>>>>> poured forth:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> gwtc wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> �Q� wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> /snip/
>>>>>>>> ob
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> /snip/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sorry, Lee, but "when in Rome..."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually, I think we will all adapt and the longer retention at 
>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>> lets one go back and find the original post, if necessary.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Its not the retention time, its the time and effort required to go 
>>>>>> back, who knows how many posts, to find the information that was 
>>>>>> snipped (and may be relevent). For example, I read several dozen 
>>>>>> newsgroups per day, and am active in a couple of dozen threads on 
>>>>>> any given day. To be able to provide accurate, worthwhile 
>>>>>> assistance, it would mean re-reading entire threads, and I simply 
>>>>>> dont have the time available to do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, tho, thems the rulz, and I am attempting to find 
>>>>>> alternatives or adjustments that allow me to work within them
>>>>>>
>>>>> I'm trying to follow the rules but I want to post a question on 
>>>>> Profiles and would like to save the responses for future 
>>>>> reference.  If I post here it will probably be snipped making for 
>>>>> many files, but if I post on secnews it might go away and I'll be 
>>>>> left with these NG and probably a lot of snipping.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a real point of confusion for me.  I'd appreciate some 
>>>>> guidance here.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Don
>>>>>
>>>> I use to flag the NG messages in Thunderbird I want to keep as 
>>>> reference, then use File > Offline > Get Flagged Messages every once 
>>>> in a while, so I have them archived locally.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately TB doesn't handle the offline messages the way I'd 
>>>> like, so acting correctly is required to not erase them inadvertently.
>>>>
>>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=290803
>>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=295599
>>>>
>>>> BR,
>>>> Gudmund
>>>>
>>> Hi Gudmund,
>>>
>>> why not simply download the lot for offline searching?
>>
>> I'm *trying* to keep it lean, especially since I want to go portable 
>> as soon as I find the time to. My current profile directory weighs in 
>> at 2.16 GB...
>>
> I dare say deleting large attachments (using Attachment Tools or the 
> integrated function in 1.5) would be more effective and efficient than 
> selective news message downloading!

Thinks so? It depends on quite a few things. Download speed is one, the 
archiving purpose and philosophy is one other. I like keeping e. g. 
assignment mails together with their attachments, to be perfectly sure 
what's what etc. trackkeeping.

I normally don't read all threads in a forum, and setting a flag is just 
one click. Getting the flagged messages is something I can do every 
second month or so, or whenever it comes to mind. Hardly takes any time.

Downloading full, high traffic NG's, however would take some time on my 
current connection.

BR,
Gudmund
0
Gudmund
1/12/2006 12:57:14 PM
On 12.01.2006 12:48 UK Time, squaredancer wrote:
> On 12.01.2006 02:46, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  gwtc to 
> generate the following:? :
> 
>> Don Nickell wrote:
>>
>>>> I dont munge my address, regardless of where I post. Spam me and you 
>>>> pay for it <g>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> How much to you pay Dan?  :-P
>>
>> this snipping policy makes it hard trying to figure out who said what.
> 
> if *everyone* put their *name* under their post - instead of contained 
> in a clipped-off sigfile - then we would SEE who posted what...


Hi Reg,

I like your new "From" field :-)

However, I don't agree with your name comment, i.e. I *deliberately* 
include my name *after* the sig delimiter in these groups, and in 
replies I even cut off non-delimited names manually, because I feel they 
only lead to confusion, especially if the name is different than the one 
that appears in the attribution line!

-- 
Herbert Eppel
www.HETranslation.co.uk
0
Herb
1/12/2006 12:57:35 PM
On 12.01.2006 12:57 UK Time, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:
> Herb wrote:
>> On 12.01.2006 12:32 UK Time, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:
>>
>>> Herb wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 12.01.2006 12:08 UK Time, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Don Nickell wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> MushMorton wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 1/11/2006 8:23 PM Leonidas Jones ,sat at the keyboard and 
>>>>>>>> poured forth:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> gwtc wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> �Q� wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> /snip/
>>>>>>>>> ob
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> /snip/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sorry, Lee, but "when in Rome..."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Actually, I think we will all adapt and the longer retention at 
>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>> lets one go back and find the original post, if necessary.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Its not the retention time, its the time and effort required to 
>>>>>>> go back, who knows how many posts, to find the information that 
>>>>>>> was snipped (and may be relevent). For example, I read several 
>>>>>>> dozen newsgroups per day, and am active in a couple of dozen 
>>>>>>> threads on any given day. To be able to provide accurate, 
>>>>>>> worthwhile assistance, it would mean re-reading entire threads, 
>>>>>>> and I simply dont have the time available to do that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Again, tho, thems the rulz, and I am attempting to find 
>>>>>>> alternatives or adjustments that allow me to work within them
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm trying to follow the rules but I want to post a question on 
>>>>>> Profiles and would like to save the responses for future 
>>>>>> reference.  If I post here it will probably be snipped making for 
>>>>>> many files, but if I post on secnews it might go away and I'll be 
>>>>>> left with these NG and probably a lot of snipping.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's a real point of confusion for me.  I'd appreciate some 
>>>>>> guidance here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Don
>>>>>>
>>>>> I use to flag the NG messages in Thunderbird I want to keep as 
>>>>> reference, then use File > Offline > Get Flagged Messages every 
>>>>> once in a while, so I have them archived locally.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately TB doesn't handle the offline messages the way I'd 
>>>>> like, so acting correctly is required to not erase them inadvertently.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=290803
>>>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=295599
>>>>>
>>>>> BR,
>>>>> Gudmund
>>>>>
>>>> Hi Gudmund,
>>>>
>>>> why not simply download the lot for offline searching?
>>>
>>> I'm *trying* to keep it lean, especially since I want to go portable 
>>> as soon as I find the time to. My current profile directory weighs in 
>>> at 2.16 GB...
>>>
>> I dare say deleting large attachments (using Attachment Tools or the 
>> integrated function in 1.5) would be more effective and efficient than 
>> selective news message downloading!
> 
> Thinks so? It depends on quite a few things. Download speed is one, the 
> archiving purpose and philosophy is one other. I like keeping e. g. 
> assignment mails together with their attachments, to be perfectly sure 
> what's what etc. trackkeeping.
> 
> I normally don't read all threads in a forum, and setting a flag is just 
> one click. Getting the flagged messages is something I can do every 
> second month or so, or whenever it comes to mind. Hardly takes any time.
> 
> Downloading full, high traffic NG's, however would take some time on my 
> current connection.

Fair enough.

I use a different approach, i.e. I keep assignment files separate from 
mails (and this was one of the main reasons why I had been looking 
forward to 1.5 - from what I have seen so far my expectation has been 
fulfilled and the integrated function is better than Attachment Tools), 
but I download and keep *all* Yahoogroup and news messages, rather than 
having to constantly make ad-hoc decisions about what I want to keep and 
having to guess what I might want to search for in future :-)

-- 
Herbert Eppel
www.HETranslation.co.uk
0
Herb
1/12/2006 1:03:32 PM
On 01/11/06 20:10, Leonidas Jones wrote:
> For what its worth, which may not be much, the Posting Etiquette calls 
> for bottom posting, not interspersed.
> 
> "Top-posting vs bottom-posting
> 
>     Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it 
> the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates 
> about which posting style is better have lead to many flame wars in the 
> forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please follow the general 
> preference, which is bottom-posting

I know, but I am going to intersperse when I think bottom-posting would 
make my message harder to read. Maybe if I were a better writer, I would 
not ever need to intersperse to have a clear message, but, well, I'm not.
-- 
Yay!
0
Matt
1/12/2006 1:34:44 PM
On 01/12/06 00:32, Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:
> Like Lee, I have always posted with an identifiable email address. My 
> reasons for not using my full name have been hashed out elsewhere and 
> dont bear repeating. However, I dont consider using a nickname as hiding 
> anything. Q is Q and squaredancer is squaredancer in my opinion, that is 
> how I know them. Regardless of what Q's real name is or what 
> squaredancers is (reg), I recognize them as Q and squaredancer.

I agree. It annoys me when people are just user@domain.invalid and don't 
provide a name so I can know who's who, but I don't mind at all if 
people use a nickname over their real name.

Well, using a nickname is hiding something -- your real name. :-P But as 
long as it's clear who you are, I don't care if you're using your real 
name or a nickname. (But I would mind if someone lied about their real 
name. Either use your real name or a nickname that obviously isn't 
pretending to be a real name, but don't lie.)

I don't really mind address munging, as long as I can easily figure out 
the person's real email address (just remove "NOSPAM" or something like 
that).
-- 
Yay!
0
Matt
1/12/2006 1:51:13 PM
Matt Nordhoff wrote:
> On 01/11/06 20:10, Leonidas Jones wrote:
>> For what its worth, which may not be much, the Posting Etiquette calls 
>> for bottom posting, not interspersed.
>>
>> "Top-posting vs bottom-posting
>>
>>     Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it 
>> the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. 
>> Debates about which posting style is better have lead to many flame 
>> wars in the forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please follow 
>> the general preference, which is bottom-posting
> 
> I know, but I am going to intersperse when I think bottom-posting would 
> make my message harder to read. Maybe if I were a better writer, I would 
> not ever need to intersperse to have a clear message, but, well, I'm not.

I'm just pointing out what the Etiquette says, its open to interpretation.

Lee

-- 
Leonidas Jones, Mozilla Champion
Learn about the Champs!  http://mozillachampions.ufaq.org
The UFAQ'S http://www.ufaq.org/
http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html
http://mozilla.com   http://mozilla.org
0
Leonidas
1/12/2006 1:55:20 PM
On 01/11/06 20:23, Leonidas Jones wrote:
> Well, the Posting Etiquette does state to bottom post, does call for 
> snipping, and does call for civility.
> 
> There is a mechanism for removing abusive posts, but it is out of our 
> hands, as you note.
> 
> Now since you allow us the courtesy of still making recommendations, 
> I'll make a couple about snipping. If material is going to be snipped 
> from posts, people have to be able to find the snipped material within 
> the thread, if they need to.
> 
> First of all, when material is snipped, it is a good idea to indicate 
> that it has been snipped.  That way, if the quote is insufficient to 
> give a particular reader the context, he will know to go back in the 
> thread.
> 
> I think it is also well to leave the attribution lines intact, which can 
> help a user to find the particular message within a thread that he needs.
> 
> For standard newsgroup general discussion threads, this is the best 
> course. For specific tech support threads, it definitely slows us up, 
> but using my recommendations will help.
> 
> I think the old secnews system worked better, for tech support issues 
> only.  Where it broke down over there was in the off topic threads or 
> sub threads, where we were supposed to snip, but often didn't. Off topic 
> material was always game for snipping.
> 
> Once I adapted to the secnews guidelines, i saw the beauty of it, for 
> the tech support nature of the groups.  But we are here now, so i shall 
> attempt to abide by the etiquette.  Bear with me if I forget for awhile.
> 
> Lee

The rules are the rules, but the rules can be changed. Perhaps they 
could be changed so that not-snipping is okay in support threads. It 
makes sense that we should snip because the groups are all also mailing 
lists, but the largest I ever say messages get was 28 KB or so, which 
would take a while to download on dial-up, but are there dial-up users here?

Personally, I do not indicate when I snip. If I don't provide enough 
context, it's easy to check the message I replied to to see if there was 
any more in it. I operate under the assumption that all messages could 
have been snipped some, even if they do include old quotes, and I guess 
I expect everyone else to do so. :-\
-- 
Yay!
0
Matt
1/12/2006 2:02:07 PM
squaredancer <cubedancer@pinneberg.com> wrote in
<news:YNKdnT_8K9qxzVvenZ2dnUVZ_vydnZ2d@mozilla.org>:

> if *everyone* put their *name* under their post - instead of
> contained in a clipped-off sigfile - then we would SEE who posted
> what...

Nope, I snip those too.  ;)

-- 
�Q�
0
ISO
1/12/2006 5:01:09 PM
On 2006-01-12 04:31, MushMorton wrote:

/snip/

> 
> Actually, I think we will all adapt and the longer retention at least
> lets one go back and find the original post, if necessary. 
> 

What is the retention period for the support groups?

-- 
Kjell
0
Kjell
1/12/2006 9:34:25 PM
Kjell B. wrote:
> On 2006-01-12 04:31, MushMorton wrote:
> 
> /snip/
> 
> 
>>Actually, I think we will all adapt and the longer retention at least
>>lets one go back and find the original post, if necessary. 
>>
> 
> 
> What is the retention period for the support groups?
> 

Chris's page tells us:

http://ilias.ca/newsserverinfo.html

"Server info
What is the retention of the new server?

Over 917 days. (around 2.5 year"

Lee

-- 
Leonidas Jones, Mozilla Champion
Learn about the Champs!  http://mozillachampions.ufaq.org
The UFAQ'S http://www.ufaq.org/
http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html
http://mozilla.com   http://mozilla.org
0
Leonidas
1/12/2006 9:41:21 PM
_Matt Nordhoff_ spoke thusly on 12/01/2006 8:34 AM:
> I know, but I am going to intersperse when I think bottom-posting would 
> make my message harder to read. Maybe if I were a better writer, I would 
> not ever need to intersperse to have a clear message, but, well, I'm not.

I've seen devs intersperse, on groups that fall under the same etiquette 
page. It's just not an issue.
-- 
Chris Ilias - Mozilla Champion
(Please do not email me tech support questions)
Mozilla Help <http://mozillahelp.com>
Netscape 7 Help <http://ilias.ca/netscape/>
0
Chris
1/12/2006 10:27:16 PM
Leonidas Jones <Cap1MD@att.net> wrote in
<news:L82dnX9p3JHxUFveRVn-ow@mozilla.org>:

> Kjell B. wrote:
>
>> What is the retention period for the support groups?
>
> Chris's page tells us:
>
> http://ilias.ca/newsserverinfo.html
>
> "Server info
> What is the retention of the new server?
>
> Over 917 days. (around 2.5 year"

And if Google come through on their promise to archive the groups,
which I expect they will, retention shouldn't be an isssue for anyone.

Still nothing at
<http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.firefox> as I write
this, though.

-- 
�Q�
0
ISO
1/12/2006 10:31:50 PM
_squaredancer_ spoke thusly on 12/01/2006 7:54 AM:
> On 12.01.2006 04:59, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Irwin 
> Greenwald to generate the following:? :
> 
>> If off topic posts are not intermingled with tech discussion posts, the
>> threads should be considerably shorter!
>
> hey Iwin.... file an RFE on that....

I asked Gerv about the possibility of an OT group. His response: "OT 
discussion should happen somewhere where it's on-topic. Otherwise in 
mozilla.general"

mozilla.general has not been created yet. It will be created when the 
netscape.public.mozilla.general mailing list is transfered.
-- 
Chris Ilias - Mozilla Champion
(Please do not email me tech support questions)
Mozilla Help <http://mozillahelp.com>
Netscape 7 Help <http://ilias.ca/netscape/>
0
Chris
1/12/2006 10:31:55 PM
gwtc wrote:
> Albert Sims wrote:
> 
>> Terry wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/10/2006 3:55 PM On a whim, Peter In MN(Brrrr) pounded out on the 
>>> keyboard
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Q and Chris,
>>>> Where are all the posts.  For once I may be ahead of the pack?
>>>> Its only 27 here today.
>>>
>>> Hey, we're trying to fill it up as fast as we can! ;-)
>>>
>>
>>
>> I'm here!
>>
>> /waves frantically ;-)
>>
> where!? ;-)

Wow I just made it over here and it's already quite active.
0
Joe
1/12/2006 11:39:30 PM
Joe Brown wrote:
> gwtc wrote:
> 
>>Albert Sims wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Terry wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 1/10/2006 3:55 PM On a whim, Peter In MN(Brrrr) pounded out on the 
>>>>keyboard
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Hi Q and Chris,
>>>>>Where are all the posts.  For once I may be ahead of the pack?
>>>>>Its only 27 here today.
>>>>
>>>>Hey, we're trying to fill it up as fast as we can! ;-)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I'm here!
>>>
>>>/waves frantically ;-)
>>>
>>
>>where!? ;-)
> 
> 
> Wow I just made it over here and it's already quite active.
Indeed it is.  This morning there was over 50 messages in the Firefox 
and over 60 in Thunderbird newsgroups.  Thats a lot of reading. 
Getting busy fast.
0
gwtc
1/13/2006 12:17:00 AM
On 2006-01-12 22:41, Leonidas Jones wrote:
> Kjell B. wrote:
>> On 2006-01-12 04:31, MushMorton wrote:
>>
>> /snip/
>>
>>
>>> Actually, I think we will all adapt and the longer retention at least
>>> lets one go back and find the original post, if necessary.
>>
>>
>> What is the retention period for the support groups?
>>
> 
> Chris's page tells us:
> 
> http://ilias.ca/newsserverinfo.html
> 
> "Server info
> What is the retention of the new server?
> 
> Over 917 days. (around 2.5 year"
> 
> Lee
> 

Thanks. I must have missed that on first read.

-- 
Kjell
0
Kjell
1/13/2006 6:21:54 AM
Don Nickell wrote:
> Bob Henson wrote:
> 
>>�Q� wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Lee, I feel it's going to make the task of the Champs much harder.
>>
>>>It generally works fine on Usenet and in mailing lists, and has for
>>>many years.  Snipping while leaving enough to show what's already been
>>>tried takes a bit of practice, but it's not that hard to do.
>>>
>>>And a no-snipping policy for anything gated to a mailing list is a bad
>>>idea.  E-mails are pushed rather than pulled, so the client has less
>>>choice in what should be gotten.
>>>
>>
>>Implicit in what you say is that the e-mails take up local disk space,
>>as distinct from the news server's space. It could become quite a
>>hardship to those with low disk capacity. Snipping and answering each
>>point as it arises is by far the best way and most economical way anyway
>>- it worked fine on Fidonet before the days of widespread Internet usage
>>and when we had to pay for our own mail transmissions. Sweet reason is
>>the answer, and I would suggest that if, for example, the Champs find
>>threads harder to follow here then a request to the users to leave in
>>more information, or whatever was needed, would certainly be well
>>received by most.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Bob
>>
> 
> Low disk space Bob?  Surely you just.  Currently I have 65GB left and I 
> have bookoo files, but no video files. My compressed e-mail backup files 
> from 1997 only consume 200MB in which I have 1/10th bookoo files.
> 
> FWIK you can't buy a HD of less than 180GB today. =-O
> 
> Don

Yup, plenty of em.  Still lots of 40GB drives available.
See, for example:
http://www.newegg.com/ProductSort/SubCategory.asp?SubCategory=14

Also, most entry level laptops that I've looked at seem to have
something in the 30 - 40GB range.

-- 
Alex
0
Alex
1/13/2006 8:07:40 AM
gwtc wrote:
> Matt Nordhoff wrote:
> 
> 
>>On 01/11/06 07:36, squaredancer wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On 11.01.2006 13:27, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Matt Nordhoff 
>>>to generate the following:? :
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 01/11/06 07:12, Don Nickell wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Bob Henson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>»Q« wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Lee, I feel it's going to make the task of the Champs much harder.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It generally works fine on Usenet and in mailing lists, and has for
>>>>>>>many years.  Snipping while leaving enough to show what's already been
>>>>>>>tried takes a bit of practice, but it's not that hard to do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>And a no-snipping policy for anything gated to a mailing list is a bad
>>>>>>>idea.  E-mails are pushed rather than pulled, so the client has less
>>>>>>>choice in what should be gotten.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Implicit in what you say is that the e-mails take up local disk space,
>>>>>>as distinct from the news server's space. It could become quite a
>>>>>>hardship to those with low disk capacity. Snipping and answering each
>>>>>>point as it arises is by far the best way and most economical way 
>>>>>>anyway
>>>>>>- it worked fine on Fidonet before the days of widespread Internet 
>>>>>>usage
>>>>>>and when we had to pay for our own mail transmissions. Sweet reason is
>>>>>>the answer, and I would suggest that if, for example, the Champs find
>>>>>>threads harder to follow here then a request to the users to leave in
>>>>>>more information, or whatever was needed, would certainly be well
>>>>>>received by most.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Bob
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Low disk space Bob?  Surely you just.  Currently I have 65GB left and 
>>>>>I have bookoo files, but no video files. My compressed e-mail backup 
>>>>>files from 1997 only consume 200MB in which I have 1/10th bookoo files.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Well, I'm stuck on a 9.5 GB and 9.4 GB partition at the moment. With 
>>>>Thunderbird profile backups taking more than 300 MiB each, I 
>>>>frequently get down to less than 1 GiB of free space.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>FWIK you can't buy a HD of less than 180GB today. =-O
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Sure you can:
>>>>
>>>><URL:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148051>
>>>>
>>>>And 40 GB hard drives are common in low-end computers. It's really 
>>>>enough for most people, though it's not very impressive.
>>>>
>>>>Though, for a good computer, I'd say you'd usually buy at least a 120 
>>>>GB or 250 GB hard drive, but you could get a much smaller one if you 
>>>>wanted to.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Don
>>>>
>>>just had a 14.5GB HD burn out on the old box.... luckilly, no damage 
>>>done, as the data is on the new box.  Imagine though, a 250GB burns out 
>>>on ya! OK - a backup....
>>>and guess just *where* that backup is???? yepp, you got it right, first 
>>>guess!
>>>Now, go figure....  :-[ :-[ :-(
>>>
>>>reg
>>
>>
>>I only got my first computer in 2002, my smallest hard drive is an 80 GB 
>>Maxtor (and I killed it a while ago). :-(
>>
>>I have noticed that I do have a bit of a collected of hardware, but not 
>>really old hardware.
> 
> I still have a couple of 5 gig hard drives around.  Oh, wait a minute, 
> I do have a 250 MB one still sitting here.

He he, I still have two 3GB drives laying around here.  Been thinking
about putting one in just for the swap file.  I thought I remember
reading somewhere that it could help performance by having the swap on a
different drive.

-- 
Alex
0
Alex
1/13/2006 8:14:02 AM
Alex wrote:
> gwtc wrote:
>>Matt Nordhoff wrote:
>>>On 01/11/06 07:36, squaredancer wrote:
---snip---
>>>>just had a 14.5GB HD burn out on the old box.... luckilly, no damage 
>>>>done, as the data is on the new box.  Imagine though, a 250GB burns out 
>>>>on ya! OK - a backup....
>>>>and guess just *where* that backup is???? yepp, you got it right, first 
>>>>guess!
>>>>Now, go figure....  :-[ :-[ :-(
>>>>
>>>>reg
>>>
>>>I only got my first computer in 2002, my smallest hard drive is an 80 GB 
>>>Maxtor (and I killed it a while ago). :-(
>>>
>>>I have noticed that I do have a bit of a collected of hardware, but not 
>>>really old hardware.
>>
>>I still have a couple of 5 gig hard drives around.  Oh, wait a minute, 
>>I do have a 250 MB one still sitting here.
>
> He he, I still have two 3GB drives laying around here.  Been thinking
> about putting one in just for the swap file.  I thought I remember
> reading somewhere that it could help performance by having the swap on a
> different drive.

If it's too old, it might be slow enough to lower performance instead. 
Depending on the system/hardware, I'd check if there's a risk of it 
dragging down performance for other units on the same controller too.

BR,
Gudmund
0
Gudmund
1/13/2006 9:53:43 AM
�Q� wrote:

> The Real Bev <bashley@myrealbox.com> wrote:
> 
>> Back when I believed that the 'public' newsgroups meant, well,
>> 'public' instead of 'developers and other gods only', somebody
>> yelled at me and insulted me for posting help questions.  Silly
>> me, I figured we all spoke the same language.
> 
> SHUT UP, BEV!  Oops, I mean, I'm sorry you got yelled at.
> 
> ;)

The yelling would have been appropriate had the groups not been named 
'public'.  As it was, I got just as pissed at them as they did me.

> You've probably seen this, but I'll link to Chris' interesting
> history-of-the-groups post anyway.
> 
> <http://ilias.ca/blog/2005/04/history-of-mozilla-newsgroups.html>

Actually, I hadn't -- I generally don't read blogs.  I like this comment: 
"The new Mozilla newsgroups should be interleaved with porn newsgroups, in 
this way a lot of people would hear about the project accidentaly and switch 
to Mozilla from IE."

At last, a PRACTICAL solution.

> Hopefully this new change will rectify once and for all some of the
> weird artifacts of the strange history of netscape/mozilla-related
> groups.  Now that the distinction between dev and user groups is
> clear at first glance, I hope the devs will actually use their
> groups.  ISTM the users posting in netscape.public.* drove a lot of
> devs away from the groups, with the result that development isn't
> done as much in the open as could be hoped for in a big
> free/open-source project.
> 
> And hopefully it'll lead to less yelling all around.

I'm watching 'Raising Cain' right now.  Yelling is good, especially if you're 
a guy.

-- 
Cheers,
Bev
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
               Non illegitimi carborundum.
0
The
1/13/2006 3:11:24 PM
On 01/12/06 17:31, Chris Ilias wrote:
> I asked Gerv about the possibility of an OT group. His response: "OT 
> discussion should happen somewhere where it's on-topic. Otherwise in 
> mozilla.general"
> 
> mozilla.general has not been created yet. It will be created when the 
> netscape.public.mozilla.general mailing list is transfered.

You also said "He may not have realized that I was referring to 
non-Mozilla related discussion. I'll get that clarified; but 
nevertheless, mozilla.general is still the best option." on 
<URL:http://ilias.ca/newsserverinfo.html>. Has it been clarified?
-- 
Yay!
0
Matt
1/13/2006 4:33:07 PM
On 01/12/06 17:27, Chris Ilias wrote:
> I've seen devs intersperse, on groups that fall under the same etiquette 
> page. It's just not an issue.

Someone once got mad at me for interspersing around here. So I've tried 
to reduce the amount of interspersing I do, but I'm still going to do 
it. I prefer bothering one person than making my message harder to 
understand for everyone.
-- 
Yay!
0
Matt
1/13/2006 4:33:52 PM
Alex wrote:

> gwtc wrote:
> 
>>Matt Nordhoff wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>On 01/11/06 07:36, squaredancer wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 11.01.2006 13:27, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Matt Nordhoff 
>>>>to generate the following:? :
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On 01/11/06 07:12, Don Nickell wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Bob Henson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>»Q« wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Lee, I feel it's going to make the task of the Champs much harder.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It generally works fine on Usenet and in mailing lists, and has for
>>>>>>>>many years.  Snipping while leaving enough to show what's already been
>>>>>>>>tried takes a bit of practice, but it's not that hard to do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>And a no-snipping policy for anything gated to a mailing list is a bad
>>>>>>>>idea.  E-mails are pushed rather than pulled, so the client has less
>>>>>>>>choice in what should be gotten.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Implicit in what you say is that the e-mails take up local disk space,
>>>>>>>as distinct from the news server's space. It could become quite a
>>>>>>>hardship to those with low disk capacity. Snipping and answering each
>>>>>>>point as it arises is by far the best way and most economical way 
>>>>>>>anyway
>>>>>>>- it worked fine on Fidonet before the days of widespread Internet 
>>>>>>>usage
>>>>>>>and when we had to pay for our own mail transmissions. Sweet reason is
>>>>>>>the answer, and I would suggest that if, for example, the Champs find
>>>>>>>threads harder to follow here then a request to the users to leave in
>>>>>>>more information, or whatever was needed, would certainly be well
>>>>>>>received by most.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Bob
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Low disk space Bob?  Surely you just.  Currently I have 65GB left and 
>>>>>>I have bookoo files, but no video files. My compressed e-mail backup 
>>>>>>files from 1997 only consume 200MB in which I have 1/10th bookoo files.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Well, I'm stuck on a 9.5 GB and 9.4 GB partition at the moment. With 
>>>>>Thunderbird profile backups taking more than 300 MiB each, I 
>>>>>frequently get down to less than 1 GiB of free space.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>FWIK you can't buy a HD of less than 180GB today. =-O
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Sure you can:
>>>>>
>>>>><URL:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148051>
>>>>>
>>>>>And 40 GB hard drives are common in low-end computers. It's really 
>>>>>enough for most people, though it's not very impressive.
>>>>>
>>>>>Though, for a good computer, I'd say you'd usually buy at least a 120 
>>>>>GB or 250 GB hard drive, but you could get a much smaller one if you 
>>>>>wanted to.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Don
>>>>>
>>>>just had a 14.5GB HD burn out on the old box.... luckilly, no damage 
>>>>done, as the data is on the new box.  Imagine though, a 250GB burns out 
>>>>on ya! OK - a backup....
>>>>and guess just *where* that backup is???? yepp, you got it right, first 
>>>>guess!
>>>>Now, go figure....  :-[ :-[ :-(
>>>>
>>>>reg
>>>
>>>
>>>I only got my first computer in 2002, my smallest hard drive is an 80 GB 
>>>Maxtor (and I killed it a while ago). :-(
>>>
>>>I have noticed that I do have a bit of a collected of hardware, but not 
>>>really old hardware.
>>
>>I still have a couple of 5 gig hard drives around.  Oh, wait a minute, 
>>I do have a 250 MB one still sitting here.
> 
> 
> He he, I still have two 3GB drives laying around here.  Been thinking
> about putting one in just for the swap file.  I thought I remember
> reading somewhere that it could help performance by having the swap on a
> different drive.
> 
thats the way I've always had it.  The swap file on a different hard 
drive than on the program hard drive
0
gwtc
1/13/2006 7:01:00 PM
Matt Nordhoff wrote:
> On 01/11/06 20:23, Leonidas Jones wrote:
> 
>> /snip/
> 
> 
> The rules are the rules, but the rules can be changed. Perhaps they 
> could be changed so that not-snipping is okay in support threads. It 
> makes sense that we should snip because the groups are all also mailing 
> lists, but the largest I ever say messages get was 28 KB or so, which 
> would take a while to download on dial-up, but are there dial-up users 
> here?
> 
> Personally, I do not indicate when I snip. If I don't provide enough 
> context, it's easy to check the message I replied to to see if there was 
> any more in it. I operate under the assumption that all messages could 
> have been snipped some, even if they do include old quotes, and I guess 
> I expect everyone else to do so. :-\

I would prefer that, but when mentioned in discussions it didnt come 
accross well. One suggestion made was that the support groups NOT go out 
on a email feed, but they didnt go for that either.


This group depends on inter-user co-operation in line with the published 
ettiquette and all are encouraged to follow such. Indication of snipping 
is an 'added' point and while preferable is not really in the guide
0
Moz
1/13/2006 7:30:27 PM
_Matt Nordhoff_ spoke thusly on 13/01/2006 11:33 AM:
> You also said "He may not have realized that I was referring to 
> non-Mozilla related discussion. I'll get that clarified; but 
> nevertheless, mozilla.general is still the best option." on 
> <URL:http://ilias.ca/newsserverinfo.html>. Has it been clarified?

No, I haven't emailed him yet. That's my fault. :-[
-- 
Chris Ilias - Mozilla Champion
(Please do not email me tech support questions)
Mozilla Help <http://mozillahelp.com>
Netscape 7 Help <http://ilias.ca/netscape/>
0
Chris
1/13/2006 8:33:48 PM
"Moz Champion (Dan)" <moz.champion@sympatico.ca> wrote in
<news:W7idnbUXoe_YnVXeRVn-vw@mozilla.org>:

> One suggestion made was that the support groups NOT go out
> on a email feed, but they didnt go for that either.

Did they give a rationale?

An e-mail list for user support seems mostly useless to me.  IME,
with few exceptions, a user with a problem will not want to
subscribe to a mailing list;  rather, he'll drop by a newsgroup or
webforum to get the info he needs then go happily along his way.
(Well, hopefully happily.)

I use some apps that /only/ have e-mail lists for support, and
that's a bit of a PiTA unless Gmane gates it to a newsgroup.

-- 
�Q�
0
ISO
1/13/2006 9:29:00 PM
On 01/13/06 15:33, Chris Ilias wrote:
> No, I haven't emailed him yet. That's my fault. :-[

Hehe, okay.

I dunno. I'd like a mozilla.ot group, but maybe that's encouraging lots 
of off-topic discussion too much. But keeping it there would be better 
than annoying people with it in mozilla.general or elsewhere. And I 
think it would be nice to have a group for just general computer (or 
anything else) discussion. This exact community is only located here, 
and it would be nice to be able to talk about non-Mozilla things without 
feeling nervous about being OT.
-- 
Yay!
0
Matt
1/13/2006 10:10:35 PM
On 01/13/06 16:29, »Q« wrote:
> Did they give a rationale?
> 
> An e-mail list for user support seems mostly useless to me.  IME,
> with few exceptions, a user with a problem will not want to
> subscribe to a mailing list;  rather, he'll drop by a newsgroup or
> webforum to get the info he needs then go happily along his way.
> (Well, hopefully happily.)
> 
> I use some apps that /only/ have e-mail lists for support, and
> that's a bit of a PiTA unless Gmane gates it to a newsgroup.

I think you have a good point, but I do think the support groups should 
have mailing lists for whoever wants to subscribe to them. Some of the 
helpers may prefer mailing lists.
-- 
Yay!
0
Matt
1/13/2006 10:12:23 PM
Matt Nordhoff <mnordhoff@gmail.com> wrote in
<news:y8KdnaCoEor3uFXeRVn-og@mozilla.org>:

> I dunno. I'd like a mozilla.ot group, but maybe that's encouraging
> lots of off-topic discussion too much. But keeping it there would
> be better than annoying people with it in mozilla.general or
> elsewhere. And I think it would be nice to have a group for just
> general computer (or anything else) discussion. This exact
> community is only located here, and it would be nice to be able to
> talk about non-Mozilla things without feeling nervous about being
> OT.

Long time ago, I posted a test message in the old Lockergnome server's
..test group.  I was suprised to get responses chastising me for not
providing an entertaining joke with my test.  It turned out that the
regulars there were using the test group as a sort of OT lounge.

I'm not advocating that here, but it does have the advantage of letting
OT stuff go on without (AFAICT) bothering other readers.  OTOH, it
takes advantage of the host's freely provided storage and bandwidth in
a way that was never intended.

-- 
�Q�
0
ISO
1/13/2006 10:56:07 PM
On 01/13/06 17:56, »Q« wrote:
> Matt Nordhoff <mnordhoff@gmail.com> wrote in
> <news:y8KdnaCoEor3uFXeRVn-og@mozilla.org>:
> 
>> I dunno. I'd like a mozilla.ot group, but maybe that's encouraging
>> lots of off-topic discussion too much. But keeping it there would
>> be better than annoying people with it in mozilla.general or
>> elsewhere. And I think it would be nice to have a group for just
>> general computer (or anything else) discussion. This exact
>> community is only located here, and it would be nice to be able to
>> talk about non-Mozilla things without feeling nervous about being
>> OT.
> 
> Long time ago, I posted a test message in the old Lockergnome server's
> ..test group.  I was suprised to get responses chastising me for not
> providing an entertaining joke with my test.  It turned out that the
> regulars there were using the test group as a sort of OT lounge.
> 
> I'm not advocating that here, but it does have the advantage of letting
> OT stuff go on without (AFAICT) bothering other readers.  OTOH, it
> takes advantage of the host's freely provided storage and bandwidth in
> a way that was never intended.

Yeah, I'd say mozilla.test.multimedia is used like that some. -Shrug-

(Crossposted and followup-to mozilla.dev.mozilla-org.)
-- 
Yay!
0
Matt
1/14/2006 12:40:37 AM
Gudmund Areskoug wrote:
> Alex wrote:

<snip>

>>He he, I still have two 3GB drives laying around here.  Been thinking
>>about putting one in just for the swap file.  I thought I remember
>>reading somewhere that it could help performance by having the swap on a
>>different drive.
> 
> 
> If it's too old, it might be slow enough to lower performance instead. 
> Depending on the system/hardware, I'd check if there's a risk of it 
> dragging down performance for other units on the same controller too.
> 
> BR,
> Gudmund

Ahh, good thought, I hadn't considered that.  I'll have to look at them,
but I believe they are both slower than the ata-100 drive currently in
this system.

Well, it was a thought anyway.  I'll eventually come up with a use for them.

Thanks for the heads up.

-- 
Alex

0
Alex
1/14/2006 7:39:08 AM
=BBQ=AB wrote:
> "Moz Champion (Dan)" <moz.champion@sympatico.ca> wrote in
> <news:W7idnbUXoe_YnVXeRVn-vw@mozilla.org>:
>=20
>=20
>>One suggestion made was that the support groups NOT go out
>>on a email feed, but they didnt go for that either.
>=20
>=20
> Did they give a rationale?
>=20
/snip/

Not exactly. It was simply stated that non snipping would create too=20
much traffic load for the email lists, and that their idea was to keep=20
all the groups the same, i.e. replete with email lists.

But hey, we DID get the mozilla.test.multimedia group tho! Which cant be =

used for multimedia anyway. I often wondered who, if anyone, would=20
really subscribe to an email list for a multimedia group (where posts=20
can be as large as 1MB), but what the hey, we got the group didnt we?

I myself, cant imagine doing tech support on a list based service, but=20
hey, thats what they wanted.
0
Moz
1/14/2006 10:31:38 AM
Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:
> �Q� wrote:
>> "Moz Champion (Dan)" <moz.champion@sympatico.ca> wrote in
>> <news:W7idnbUXoe_YnVXeRVn-vw@mozilla.org>:
>>
>>
>>> One suggestion made was that the support groups NOT go out
>>> on a email feed, but they didnt go for that either.
>>
>>
>> Did they give a rationale?
>>
> /snip/
> 
> Not exactly. It was simply stated that non snipping would create too 
> much traffic load for the email lists, and that their idea was to keep 
> all the groups the same, i.e. replete with email lists.
> 
> But hey, we DID get the mozilla.test.multimedia group tho! Which cant be 
> used for multimedia anyway. I often wondered who, if anyone, would 
> really subscribe to an email list for a multimedia group (where posts 
> can be as large as 1MB), but what the hey, we got the group didnt we?
> 
> I myself, cant imagine doing tech support on a list based service, but 
> hey, thats what they wanted.

Can someone help me understand how to read these new heavily snipped 
threads?  Often I'll bypass a thread because I don't have time to read it. 
  Later there might be only a couple of replies and it seems interesting 
but snipping has removed the initial message.

I generally run with View/Threads/Unread.  Then when I switch to 
View/Treads/All it's almost impossible to find the Thread because many 
threads can run on forever.  How do others deal with this?

Thanks
Don
0
Don
1/14/2006 12:01:15 PM
Don Nickell wrote:
> Can someone help me understand how to read these new heavily snipped 
> threads?  Often I'll bypass a thread because I don't have time to read it. 
>   Later there might be only a couple of replies and it seems interesting 
> but snipping has removed the initial message.
> 
> I generally run with View/Threads/Unread.  Then when I switch to 
> View/Treads/All it's almost impossible to find the Thread because many 
> threads can run on forever.  How do others deal with this?
> 
> Thanks
> Don

It's not rocket-science, Don. In View->All/All, sort by 
Subject/Ascending and follow the tree.
One can quite easily get by understanding a conversation even if ~none~ 
of the posts contain any quotes. In 'real-time' reading, the Unread view 
is fine for this (just follow the tree), but if you wanted to go back 
and see how the conversation progressed to where it's at now, the 
View/Subject/Threaded/All/All will do the trick.

This brings us full-circle to the top-post or bottom-post issue.
I used to be one of the most unapologetic top-posters around. If I'm 
following a conversation from start-to-finish, why would I want to have 
to scroll past an exact copy of what I'd just read in the previous 
message(s)? What's the logic in that? If for some reason I didn't 
understand the context of what I was reading, then I could scroll down 
to the quoted section below the reply and refresh my memory on what had 
previously been said - or, I could switch to the 'All' view and follow 
the tree. I'd rather have to scroll down once or twice out of 50 new 
messages, than 48 times.

When I first started using Usenet - at least in the groups I visited, 
top-posting was the norm. Over time, more and more people started 
bottom-posting (never understood what caused the change), and before 
long it seemed to be that if you top-posted you could be assured of 
someone chiming in saying "please bottom-post - I can't follow along". 
Soon, top-posters were in the minority on Usenet, and their chosen 
posting-style often earned them a shouting-at, often peppered with 
liberal use of the word 'f~wit'. Oftentimes there would be more replies 
about the method in which a post was made than replies ~what~ was 
written. So many of us gave up, and moved to the Dark Side..

Isn't it ironic then - that here we are in 2006 and many of us today use 
the excellent 'QuotesCollapse' extension (and there is a similar plugin 
for Outlook Express as well, I believe) - which does what? Hides the 
quoted-section!

Reading a message without seeing the quoted section first?... 
hmm....where had I seen that before? ;-)
0
RenegadeX
1/14/2006 1:17:01 PM
On 01/14/06 05:31, Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:
> Not exactly. It was simply stated that non snipping would create too 
> much traffic load for the email lists, and that their idea was to keep 
> all the groups the same, i.e. replete with email lists.
> 
> But hey, we DID get the mozilla.test.multimedia group tho! Which cant be 
> used for multimedia anyway. I often wondered who, if anyone, would 
> really subscribe to an email list for a multimedia group (where posts 
> can be as large as 1MB), but what the hey, we got the group didnt we?
> 
> I myself, cant imagine doing tech support on a list based service, but 
> hey, thats what they wanted.

Binaries have been working sometimes.
-- 
Yay!
0
Matt
1/14/2006 2:50:53 PM
On 01/14/06 07:01, Don Nickell wrote:
> Can someone help me understand how to read these new heavily snipped 
> threads?  Often I'll bypass a thread because I don't have time to read 
> it.  Later there might be only a couple of replies and it seems 
> interesting but snipping has removed the initial message.
> 
> I generally run with View/Threads/Unread.  Then when I switch to 
> View/Treads/All it's almost impossible to find the Thread because many 
> threads can run on forever.  How do others deal with this?

Well, I use View -> Threads -> Threads with Unread so I can see all the 
previous messages in a thread, and so I can see how active it is.
-- 
Yay!
0
Matt
1/14/2006 2:51:43 PM
RenegadeX wrote:
> Don Nickell wrote:
>> Can someone help me understand how to read these new heavily snipped 
>> threads?  Often I'll bypass a thread because I don't have time to read 
>> it.   Later there might be only a couple of replies and it seems 
>> interesting but snipping has removed the initial message.
>>
>> I generally run with View/Threads/Unread.  Then when I switch to 
>> View/Treads/All it's almost impossible to find the Thread because many 
>> threads can run on forever.  How do others deal with this?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Don
> 
> It's not rocket-science, Don. In View->All/All, sort by 
> Subject/Ascending and follow the tree.
> One can quite easily get by understanding a conversation even if ~none~ 
> of the posts contain any quotes. In 'real-time' reading, the Unread view 
> is fine for this (just follow the tree), but if you wanted to go back 
> and see how the conversation progressed to where it's at now, the 
> View/Subject/Threaded/All/All will do the trick.
> 
> This brings us full-circle to the top-post or bottom-post issue.
> I used to be one of the most unapologetic top-posters around. If I'm 
> following a conversation from start-to-finish, why would I want to have 
> to scroll past an exact copy of what I'd just read in the previous 
> message(s)? What's the logic in that? If for some reason I didn't 
> understand the context of what I was reading, then I could scroll down 
> to the quoted section below the reply and refresh my memory on what had 
> previously been said - or, I could switch to the 'All' view and follow 
> the tree. I'd rather have to scroll down once or twice out of 50 new 
> messages, than 48 times.
> 
> When I first started using Usenet - at least in the groups I visited, 
> top-posting was the norm. Over time, more and more people started 
> bottom-posting (never understood what caused the change), and before 
> long it seemed to be that if you top-posted you could be assured of 
> someone chiming in saying "please bottom-post - I can't follow along". 
> Soon, top-posters were in the minority on Usenet, and their chosen 
> posting-style often earned them a shouting-at, often peppered with 
> liberal use of the word 'f~wit'. Oftentimes there would be more replies 
> about the method in which a post was made than replies ~what~ was 
> written. So many of us gave up, and moved to the Dark Side..
> 
> Isn't it ironic then - that here we are in 2006 and many of us today use 
> the excellent 'QuotesCollapse' extension (and there is a similar plugin 
> for Outlook Express as well, I believe) - which does what? Hides the 
> quoted-section!
> 
> Reading a message without seeing the quoted section first?... 
> hmm....where had I seen that before? ;-)

Thanks, I'll try your suggestion and *try* to get used to it.  :-P  When I 
first upgraded from Netscape 4.9 to TB I didn't think I'd ever get used to 
^ShftC to _mark all read_ but now it's become a natural reaction.

I, too, used to bitch about bottom posting, and still feel it's a PAIN but 
have more or less gotten used to it and no longer bitch, not even to my 
wife.  ;-)

Now the snipping has become a PITA and hopefully I'll quit bitching about 
it...before my 85th birthday.  :-P

Don
0
Don
1/14/2006 4:54:41 PM
Matt Nordhoff wrote:
> On 01/14/06 07:01, Don Nickell wrote:
>> Can someone help me understand how to read these new heavily snipped 
>> threads?  Often I'll bypass a thread because I don't have time to read 
>> it.  Later there might be only a couple of replies and it seems 
>> interesting but snipping has removed the initial message.
>>
>> I generally run with View/Threads/Unread.  Then when I switch to 
>> View/Treads/All it's almost impossible to find the Thread because many 
>> threads can run on forever.  How do others deal with this?
> 
> Well, I use View -> Threads -> Threads with Unread so I can see all the 
> previous messages in a thread, and so I can see how active it is.
Good idea Matt. Thanks.
0
Don
1/14/2006 4:57:14 PM
Matt Nordhoff wrote:
> On 01/14/06 07:01, Don Nickell wrote:
>> Can someone help me understand how to read these new heavily snipped 
>> threads?  Often I'll bypass a thread because I don't have time to read 
>> it.  Later there might be only a couple of replies and it seems 
>> interesting but snipping has removed the initial message.
>>
>> I generally run with View/Threads/Unread.  Then when I switch to 
>> View/Treads/All it's almost impossible to find the Thread because many 
>> threads can run on forever.  How do others deal with this?
> 
> Well, I use View -> Threads -> Threads with Unread so I can see all the 
> previous messages in a thread, and so I can see how active it is.

Well I thought it was a good idea until I just tried it.  Even though I've 
opted for Threads with Unread they aren't expanded and then you must 
manually *expand* each Thread in order to see the Unread messages in a 
thread.  :-(

How do you deal with that problem?
0
Don
1/14/2006 5:12:25 PM
On 1/14/2006 9:12 AM Don Nickell scribbled:

> Matt Nordhoff wrote:
> 
>>On 01/14/06 07:01, Don Nickell wrote:
>>
>>>Can someone help me understand how to read these new heavily snipped 
>>>threads?  Often I'll bypass a thread because I don't have time to read 
>>>it.  Later there might be only a couple of replies and it seems 
>>>interesting but snipping has removed the initial message.
>>>
>>>I generally run with View/Threads/Unread.  Then when I switch to 
>>>View/Treads/All it's almost impossible to find the Thread because many 
>>>threads can run on forever.  How do others deal with this?
>>
>>Well, I use View -> Threads -> Threads with Unread so I can see all the 
>>previous messages in a thread, and so I can see how active it is.
> 
> 
> Well I thought it was a good idea until I just tried it.  Even though I've 
> opted for Threads with Unread they aren't expanded and then you must 
> manually *expand* each Thread in order to see the Unread messages in a 
> thread.  :-(
> 
> How do you deal with that problem?
* will expand all...
0
jg
1/14/2006 5:49:29 PM
Don Nickell wrote:
> Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:
>=20
>> =BBQ=AB wrote:
>>
>>> "Moz Champion (Dan)" <moz.champion@sympatico.ca> wrote in
>>> <news:W7idnbUXoe_YnVXeRVn-vw@mozilla.org>:
>>>
>>>
>>>> One suggestion made was that the support groups NOT go out
>>>> on a email feed, but they didnt go for that either.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Did they give a rationale?
>>>
>> /snip/
>>
>> Not exactly. It was simply stated that non snipping would create too=20
>> much traffic load for the email lists, and that their idea was to keep=
=20
>> all the groups the same, i.e. replete with email lists.
>>
>> But hey, we DID get the mozilla.test.multimedia group tho! Which cant =

>> be used for multimedia anyway. I often wondered who, if anyone, would =

>> really subscribe to an email list for a multimedia group (where posts =

>> can be as large as 1MB), but what the hey, we got the group didnt we?
>>
>> I myself, cant imagine doing tech support on a list based service, but=
=20
>> hey, thats what they wanted.
>=20
>=20
> Can someone help me understand how to read these new heavily snipped=20
> threads?  Often I'll bypass a thread because I don't have time to read =

> it.  Later there might be only a couple of replies and it seems=20
> interesting but snipping has removed the initial message.
>=20
> I generally run with View/Threads/Unread.  Then when I switch to=20
> View/Treads/All it's almost impossible to find the Thread because many =

> threads can run on forever.  How do others deal with this?
>=20
> Thanks
> Don

Cant help you there much. Talk to the people who complained about the=20
no-snipping policy on secnews about that, they seem to handle it okay.
0
Moz
1/14/2006 6:09:11 PM
On 01/14/06 12:12, Don Nickell wrote:
> Well I thought it was a good idea until I just tried it.  Even though 
> I've opted for Threads with Unread they aren't expanded and then you 
> must manually *expand* each Thread in order to see the Unread messages 
> in a thread.  :-(
> 
> How do you deal with that problem?

I don't consider it a problem, that's how. :-)

You can always hit * (Shift+8 instead of only one key press) to expand 
all the threads if you want to.
-- 
Yay!
0
Matt
1/14/2006 6:43:09 PM
gwtc wrote:

> Don Nickell wrote:
> 
>>> I dont munge my address, regardless of where I post. Spam me and you
>>> pay for it <g>
>> 
>> How much to you pay Dan?  :-P

You mean we can make money here?  Darn...

> this snipping policy makes it hard trying to figure out who said what.

If I leave somebody's quote in, I also leave his attribution.  Sometimes I
even tidy things up for clarity, especially when somebody has done something
stupid about his line length.  "Rewrap" is really a nice gift.  Not perfect, 
but nice.

-- 
Cheers, Bev
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity
  is not thus handicapped."
              -- Elbert Hubbard, American author
0
The
1/16/2006 10:57:45 PM
Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:

> MushMorton wrote:
>
>> Actually, I think we will all adapt and the longer retention at least
>> lets one go back and find the original post, if necessary. 
> 
> Its not the retention time, its the time and effort required to go back, 
> who knows how many posts, to find the information that was snipped (and 
> may be relevent). 

In Netscape 4.79 this wasn't a problem, but with TB 1.0.6 it's a nightmare 
which wasn't corrected in 1.5.  There are helpful extensions, but they just 
remove some of the pain.  Nowhere near enough.

> For example, I read several dozen newsgroups per day, 
> and am active in a couple of dozen threads on any given day. To be able 
> to provide accurate, worthwhile assistance, it would mean re-reading 
> entire threads, and I simply dont have the time available to do that.

Perhaps googling will work better than TB, but google just isn't a good way to 
read news.

> Again, tho, thems the rulz, and I am attempting to find alternatives or 
> adjustments that allow me to work within them

Some find that strong drink helps :-)

-- 
Cheers, Bev
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity
  is not thus handicapped."
              -- Elbert Hubbard, American author
0
The
1/16/2006 11:08:43 PM
The Real Bev wrote:
> Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:
> 
>> MushMorton wrote:
>>
>>> Actually, I think we will all adapt and the longer retention at least
>>> lets one go back and find the original post, if necessary. 
>>
>>
>> Its not the retention time, its the time and effort required to go 
>> back, who knows how many posts, to find the information that was 
>> snipped (and may be relevent). 
> 
> 
> In Netscape 4.79 this wasn't a problem, but with TB 1.0.6 it's a 
> nightmare which wasn't corrected in 1.5.  There are helpful extensions, 
> but they just remove some of the pain.  Nowhere near enough.
> 
>> For example, I read several dozen newsgroups per day, and am active in 
>> a couple of dozen threads on any given day. To be able to provide 
>> accurate, worthwhile assistance, it would mean re-reading entire 
>> threads, and I simply dont have the time available to do that.
> 
> 
> Perhaps googling will work better than TB, but google just isn't a good 
> way to read news.
> 
>> Again, tho, thems the rulz, and I am attempting to find alternatives 
>> or adjustments that allow me to work within them
> 
> 
> Some find that strong drink helps :-)
> 

Please bottom post in these newsgroups if you will, thanks
0
Moz
1/17/2006 8:00:34 AM
This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156)
--------------enigDB47CE255EACBCF826B664A1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A 13-01-2006 21:29, =C2=BBQ=C2=AB escreveu:
> "Moz Champion (Dan)" <moz.champion@sympatico.ca> wrote in
> <news:W7idnbUXoe_YnVXeRVn-vw@mozilla.org>:
>>One suggestion made was that the support groups NOT go out
>>on a email feed, but they didnt go for that either.
>=20
> Did they give a rationale?
>=20
> An e-mail list for user support seems mostly useless to me.  IME,
> with few exceptions, a user with a problem will not want to
> subscribe to a mailing list;  rather, he'll drop by a newsgroup or
> webforum to get the info he needs then go happily along his way.
> (Well, hopefully happily.)
<snip/>

I would use newsgroups if it was possible... as I have no internet
connection at home, the only solution I have to read and participate in
these newsgroups using my home computer is to download e-mailing lists
messages with Portable Thunderbird and copying the inboxes to my local
profile.

--=20
Nuno Silva (aka NJSG)
Lisbon, Portugal
http://njsg.no.sapo.pt/
Registered Linux User #402207 - http://counter.li.org
Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; pt-PT; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050929
Thunderbird/1.0.7 Fedora/1.0.7-1.1.fc3 Mnenhy/0.6.0.104
Fedora Core release 3 (Heidelberg) - Kernel 2.6.12-njsg - i686
Intel Pentium II (80686) Deschutes - 334Mhz -- 256 Mbs SDRAM

A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing in the Internet?


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0
Nuno
1/22/2006 6:34:44 PM
_Matt Nordhoff_ spoke thusly on 13/01/2006 11:33 AM:
> You also said "He may not have realized that I was referring to 
> non-Mozilla related discussion. I'll get that clarified; but 
> nevertheless, mozilla.general is still the best option." on 
> <URL:http://ilias.ca/newsserverinfo.html>. Has it been clarified?

Got the word. If people refuse to take OT discussion to a venue where it 
is on topic, then take it to mozilla.general. But Gerv made a point not 
to put anything of importance in mozilla.general.
-- 
Chris Ilias - Mozilla Champion
(Please do not email me tech support questions)
Mozilla Help <http://mozillahelp.com>
Netscape 7 Help <http://ilias.ca/netscape/>
0
Chris
1/24/2006 12:41:09 AM
On 01/23/06 19:41, Chris Ilias wrote:
> Got the word. If people refuse to take OT discussion to a venue where it 
> is on topic, then take it to mozilla.general. But Gerv made a point not 
> to put anything of importance in mozilla.general.

Okay, thanks, Chris. Huh. Okay.
-- 
Yay!
0
Matt
1/24/2006 1:03:51 AM
Matt Nordhoff wrote:
> On 01/23/06 19:41, Chris Ilias wrote:
>> Got the word. If people refuse to take OT discussion to a venue where 
>> it is on topic, then take it to mozilla.general. But Gerv made a point 
>> not to put anything of importance in mozilla.general.
> 
> Okay, thanks, Chris. Huh. Okay.

And let us note the distinction between mozilla.general and 
mozilla.dev.general. Lets keep end user discussion out of the dev groups 
entirely.

Lee

-- 
Leonidas Jones, Mozilla Champion
Learn about the Champs!  http://mozillachampions.ufaq.org
The UFAQ'S http://www.ufaq.org/
http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html
http://mozilla.com   http://mozilla.org
0
Leonidas
1/24/2006 1:32:48 AM
On 01/23/06 20:32, Leonidas Jones wrote:
> And let us note the distinction between mozilla.general and 
> mozilla.dev.general. Lets keep end user discussion out of the dev groups 
> entirely.

What about the dev. groups that don't have equivalent support groups, 
like mozilla.dev.mozilla-org or mozilla.dev.ports.os2? Should they go in 
mozilla.support.general?
-- 
Yay!
0
Matt
1/24/2006 2:01:40 AM
Matt Nordhoff wrote:
> On 01/23/06 20:32, Leonidas Jones wrote:
>> And let us note the distinction between mozilla.general and 
>> mozilla.dev.general. Lets keep end user discussion out of the dev 
>> groups entirely.
> 
> What about the dev. groups that don't have equivalent support groups, 
> like mozilla.dev.mozilla-org or mozilla.dev.ports.os2? Should they go in 
> mozilla.support.general?

Chris' post referred to off topic posts.  If I read correctly, they 
should go to mozilla.general, not mozilla.support.general. not 
mozilla.dev.general, which are different groups.

I still strongly suggest that non developers stay out of the developer 
groups entirely.  That was one of the big problems on the old 
news.mozilla.org.

Lee

-- 
Leonidas Jones, Mozilla Champion
Learn about the Champs!  http://mozillachampions.ufaq.org
The UFAQ'S http://www.ufaq.org/
http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html
http://mozilla.com   http://mozilla.org
0
Leonidas
1/24/2006 2:11:04 AM
On 01/23/06 21:11, Leonidas Jones wrote:
> Chris' post referred to off topic posts.  If I read correctly, they 
> should go to mozilla.general, not mozilla.support.general. not 
> mozilla.dev.general, which are different groups.
> 
> I still strongly suggest that non developers stay out of the developer 
> groups entirely.  That was one of the big problems on the old 
> news.mozilla.org.

I was talking about support questions, not off-topic stuff.
-- 
Yay!
0
Matt
1/24/2006 2:16:23 AM
Matt Nordhoff <mnordhoff@gmail.com> wrote in
<news:L5adnXD9xoSFE0jenZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d@mozilla.org>:

> On 01/23/06 21:11, Leonidas Jones wrote:
>> Chris' post referred to off topic posts.  If I read correctly,
>> they should go to mozilla.general, not mozilla.support.general.
>> not mozilla.dev.general, which are different groups.
>>
>> I still strongly suggest that non developers stay out of the
>> developer groups entirely.  That was one of the big problems on
>> the old news.mozilla.org.
>
> I was talking about support questions, not off-topic stuff.

In that case, I think you're right.  There are several app-specific
mozilla.support.* groups, then mozilla.support.general is for "All
other products".  So it's a catch-all for support questions that don't
clearly belong in some other support group.

<http://www.mozilla.org/community/newsgroups.txt>

You mentioned mozilla.dev.mozilla-org, the dev group for server
operations.  I'd guess most user support involving the servers will end
up in the app-specific groups, because it will also involve some
particular app.  For example, "I'm having trouble using Fx to browse
AMO" or "I've been having trouble with timeouts when connecting to
news.mozilla.org using Tb".

You also mentioned mozilla.dev.ports.os2.  For OS/2 ports, I'd guess
support questions belong in the group of the application that's been
ported.  But AFAIK, OS/2 users tend to get support for everything by
hanging out in their OS/2 Usenet groups.

-- 
�Q�
0
ISO
1/24/2006 2:36:22 AM
On 01/23/06 21:36, »Q« wrote:
> In that case, I think you're right.  There are several app-specific
> mozilla.support.* groups, then mozilla.support.general is for "All
> other products".  So it's a catch-all for support questions that don't
> clearly belong in some other support group.

Hmm. I think maybe some of those other mozilla.dev.* groups should have 
mozilla.support.* equivalents. It's okay that some don't but I think the 
OS/2 group should.

> You mentioned mozilla.dev.mozilla-org, the dev group for server
> operations.  I'd guess most user support involving the servers will end
> up in the app-specific groups, because it will also involve some
> particular app.  For example, "I'm having trouble using Fx to browse
> AMO" or "I've been having trouble with timeouts when connecting to
> news.mozilla.org using Tb".

Oh, you're right. I hadn't thought of that. But some of it would more 
belong in a mozilla.support.mozilla-org.

> You also mentioned mozilla.dev.ports.os2.  For OS/2 ports, I'd guess
> support questions belong in the group of the application that's been
> ported.  But AFAIK, OS/2 users tend to get support for everything by
> hanging out in their OS/2 Usenet groups.

True. But still. Though, even if the group's name says it should only be 
there for development, I don't think they'd mind support questions. 
There was only one OS/2 group on the old news.mozilla.org, and it 
would've handled both development and support. Not that I would know, 
but of the little I've read of that group, I've gotten that impression.


(Crossposted to and Followup-To mozilla.dev.mozilla-org. :-P )
-- 
Yay!
0
Matt
1/24/2006 6:49:39 AM
Leonidas Jones wrote:
> Pete wrote:
>> Chris Ilias wrote:
>>> _DynaBMan_ spoke thusly on 10/01/2006 8:04 PM:
>>>> So let me get this straight.  I can now remove the
>>>> secnews.netscape.com server and use these newsgroups instead.  Is
>>>> that correct?
>>> Assuming you only subscribed to Mozilla/Firefox/Thunderbird user
>>> support newsgroups, yes.
>>
>> Chris...I tried to ask something similar to this in the other group 
>> and I got yelled at and insulted - oh well...Pete
>>
> 
> "yelled at and insulted" ????
> 
> I missed that part. Chris did make a bottom posting comment, but it was 
> a joke, and has a smiley appended.
> 
> I am leaving the secnews account in  place.  There are netscape groups 
> there that will not be duplicated on this server.  As far as the Mozilla 
> related groups, I'll support in there as long as people post, though I 
> will refer them here.
> 
> I'm going to miss secnews.
Lee wrote:
  There are netscape groups
 > there that will not be duplicated on this server.

Are you sure? I have seen a lot of Netscape newsgroups on 
news.mozilla.org which were not there before the upgrade. (I've always 
used n.m.o., and it went dead for a week, now back in strength)




0
kes
11/14/2006 12:28:19 PM
kes wrote:
> Leonidas Jones wrote:
>> Pete wrote:
>>> Chris Ilias wrote:
>>>> _DynaBMan_ spoke thusly on 10/01/2006 8:04 PM:
>>>>> So let me get this straight.  I can now remove the
>>>>> secnews.netscape.com server and use these newsgroups instead.  Is
>>>>> that correct?
>>>> Assuming you only subscribed to Mozilla/Firefox/Thunderbird user
>>>> support newsgroups, yes.
>>>
>>> Chris...I tried to ask something similar to this in the other group 
>>> and I got yelled at and insulted - oh well...Pete
>>>
>>
>> "yelled at and insulted" ????
>>
>> I missed that part. Chris did make a bottom posting comment, but it 
>> was a joke, and has a smiley appended.
>>
>> I am leaving the secnews account in  place.  There are netscape groups 
>> there that will not be duplicated on this server.  As far as the 
>> Mozilla related groups, I'll support in there as long as people post, 
>> though I will refer them here.
>>
>> I'm going to miss secnews.
> Lee wrote:
>  There are netscape groups
>  > there that will not be duplicated on this server.
> 
> Are you sure? I have seen a lot of Netscape newsgroups on 
> news.mozilla.org which were not there before the upgrade. (I've always 
> used n.m.o., and it went dead for a week, now back in strength)
> 
> 
> 
> 

Quite sure.

What you are seeing are the old developer groups, under the 
netscape.public hierarchy.  The support groups are all on the secure server.

Lee

-- 
Leonidas Jones, Mozilla/Netscape Champion
Learn about the Champs!  http://mozillachampions.ufaq.org
The UFAQ'S http://www.ufaq.org/
http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html
http://mozilla.com   http://mozilla.org
0
Leonidas
11/14/2006 12:44:20 PM
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