Insight to the browser evolution that's wrecked my life?

Browser evolution eliminating Java and Flash-like functions:
    Does anyone have insight to the details, and at what level of world power that decision occurred... bigger than all 
the competitive browser wars?

Based on the briar patch in which I am stuck, and the path getting here, from windows XP to Windows 10, and the Edge 
browser, I have a strong suspicion it is related to smartphones and ad delivery. The other side-bar benefits are simply 
a nice topping.

It's my security IP cameras and remote network access that has me ranting and raving...
      (Sorry! You friendly helpers and saviors of us lesser and troubled souls... are like the spouse that catches all 
the crap from the wage earner who comes home from a bad day at work!)

I've had to upgrade camera firmware 2 times, and HKVision NVR (Linux) once.  Even Internet explorer 11 no longer shows 
the video image.  Chrome and FF ESR 45 is also ill,

Then installation of Google Fiber complicate my life because the Linux NVR has it's POE (power over internet) LAN at 
192.168.254.1...
     as does Google fiber Network box (with four Cat5e ports) has it's LAN there.

Please don't assume I almost know what I'm doing! (sheepish grin). I thought I did... now I know the truth!
Thanks for being there! (here). Systems with a floppy disk were less trouble.

Carl
(still I have no smartphone. I can't imagine holding a $600 telephone near my ear.)

0
king
3/18/2017 12:30:29 PM
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On 03/18/2017 08:30 AM, king daddy 2 wrote:
> Browser evolution eliminating Java and Flash-like functions:
>    Does anyone have insight to the details, and at what level of world
> power that decision occurred... bigger than all
> the competitive browser wars?

I do love reading your dilemma, not that I'm laughing at you, but more 
at 'life' itself.  Seems this trend is in a lot of things.  I'm not a 
stick in the mud person, even though status quo in a lot of things isn't 
bad, as I really do love my new updated android phone, but there is a 
limit.

Oddly (back to your flash request) it's odd that the thread just above 
yours in my Thunderbird header pane is a complaint/request from Jo-Anne 
on some way "NOT" to use Flash.   One person wants it and another 
doesn't.
0
Big
3/18/2017 1:40:35 PM
king daddy 2 wrote:
> Browser evolution eliminating Java and Flash-like functions:
>     Does anyone have insight to the details, and at what level of world 
> power that decision occurred... bigger than all the competitive browser 
> wars?
> 
> Based on the briar patch in which I am stuck, and the path getting here, 
> from windows XP to Windows 10, and the Edge browser, I have a strong 
> suspicion it is related to smartphones and ad delivery. The other 
> side-bar benefits are simply a nice topping.
> 
> It's my security IP cameras and remote network access that has me 
> ranting and raving...
>       (Sorry! You friendly helpers and saviors of us lesser and troubled 
> souls... are like the spouse that catches all the crap from the wage 
> earner who comes home from a bad day at work!)
> 
> I've had to upgrade camera firmware 2 times, and HKVision NVR (Linux) 
> once.  Even Internet explorer 11 no longer shows the video image.  
> Chrome and FF ESR 45 is also ill,
> 
> Then installation of Google Fiber complicate my life because the Linux 
> NVR has it's POE (power over internet) LAN at 192.168.254.1...
>      as does Google fiber Network box (with four Cat5e ports) has it's 
> LAN there.
> 
> Please don't assume I almost know what I'm doing! (sheepish grin). I 
> thought I did... now I know the truth!
> Thanks for being there! (here). Systems with a floppy disk were less 
> trouble.
> 
> Carl
> (still I have no smartphone. I can't imagine holding a $600 telephone 
> near my ear.)
> 
I do have an smartphone but I'm seriously thinking that the new revamped 
Nokia 3310 is something I will take into consideration in the years to 
come.  My wife already dropped the smartphone in favor of the 3310.  I 
suggest you get one.  Nowadays, it is good idea to have a phone always 
at hand.
Cheers
0
Luis
3/18/2017 1:51:22 PM
On 3/18/2017 at 8:30 AM, king daddy 2's prodigious digits fired off with 
great aplomb:
> Browser evolution eliminating Java and Flash-like functions:
>     Does anyone have insight to the details, and at what level of world 
> power that decision occurred... bigger than all the competitive browser 
> wars?

Well, this might help:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPAPI>

-- 
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net/
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity
0
Ed
3/18/2017 2:09:13 PM
On 3/18/2017 6:40 AM, Big Al wrote [in part]:
> 
> Oddly (back to your flash request) it's odd that the thread just above 
> yours in my Thunderbird header pane is a complaint/request from Jo-Anne 
> on some way "NOT" to use Flash.   One person wants it and another 
> doesn't.
> 

It would be nice if browser developers would allow us to make that
choice ourselves.

-- 
David E. Ross
<http://www.rossde.com>

Consider:
*  Most state mandate that drivers have liability insurance.
*  Employers are mandated to have worker's compensation insurance.
*  If you live in a flood zone, flood insurance is mandatory.
*  If your home has a mortgate, fire insurance is mandatory.

Why then is mandatory health insurance so bad??
0
David
3/18/2017 2:40:23 PM
On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 08:30:29 -0400, king daddy 2 <king@castle.org>
wrote in
<mailman.465.1489840263.10544.support-firefox@lists.mozilla.org> 

>Based on the briar patch in which I am stuck, and the path getting here, from windows XP to Windows 10, and the Edge 
>browser, I have a strong suspicion it is related to smartphones and ad delivery. 

Bingo!
-- 
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers 
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those 
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.
0
CRNG
3/18/2017 3:06:49 PM
"king daddy 2" <king@castle.org> wrote

| Browser evolution eliminating Java and Flash-like functions:
|    Does anyone have insight to the details, and at what level of world 
power that decision occurred... bigger than all
| the competitive browser wars?

| I have a strong suspicion it is related to smartphones and ad delivery.

  It's partly connected with phones, insofar as
Flash is not well suited to phones. Before phones,
companies were making flash-only websites.
Now they're making script-only websites. And
the new WebAssembly is meant to improve on
that. It's not just about ads. It's mostly about
services and dynamic content. The Internet is
turning into interactive TV shopping.

  Everyone, including the Mozillians, is trying to keep
up with a landscape that's changing fast. Just a few
years ago it was the information superhighway. One
could find information online. Now if you look at college
students you'll see most spend their time using online
services through their phones. It's becoming a shopping
mall. That's what a lot of people want and there's
money to be made. The young people, despite being
adept at online services, are largely ignorant of how
it all works. They just want to shop, eat out and call Uber
taxis without malware. They want it simple and quick.
A stripped-down UI with few options and no plugins
helps to get that. The challenge for Firefox is to stay
current. You don't have to keep moving with them. But
if you do then you're going to find increasingly that
you're using a kiosk product that shows you dynamic
content and sells you stuff. Similarly, you don't
have to use Windows 10, but if you keep using it
you're going to find more of the same, as Microsoft
gradually shuts off your control, shows you ads, and
replaces your software with services.

  Microsoft want to replace your car with a taxi service.
A lot of people think that's just fine. You have to choose
before they steal your car.

  This is not necessarily "the future". It's a market-
driven transition. There's less money now in hardware
and software. So companies are trying to sell services
and rental software.

  Goodness knows why you'd even consider using Edge.
It's basically IE with all the IE-compatible functionality
stripped out. In Microsoft's defense, they're trying to
get back into the browser market by following web
standards more closely. But the IE-specific functionality
was the only good thing about IE in the first place.
It's an incredibly powerful and flexible piece of software,
as long as you don't try to use it online. Without ActiveX
and all the other goodies it's just a broken malware magnet
that's dangerously integrated with the operating system.
Microsoft also have another wrinkle in their strategy:
Historically they've made their money through monopoly
maintenance and incompatibility. That's no longer working
so well. But they're trying to hold on through the same
trick they've always used with IE: Build in the browser and
make it difficult for people to switch. In that regard they're
trying to force Edge on Windows users. On the other hand,
they're also shooting themsleves in the foot because
Edge is not really a browser. It's a Windows component.
Since it can *only* run on Windows 10 and it breaks
backward compatibility, it's not likely to be widely supported.
I found that on my own site I had to choose between
creating a 3rd set of webpages for Edge and the broken
version of IE11, or not supporting them. I chose to show
a message explaining how to set compatibility mode in
IE11 (causing it to revert to actually being IE) and explaining
that Edge would simply not work and couldn't be made
to work.



0
Mayayana
3/18/2017 4:29:52 PM
On 3/18/2017 12:29 PM, Mayayana wrote:
> "king daddy 2" <king@castle.org> wrote
>
> | Browser evolution eliminating Java and Flash-like functions:
> |    Does anyone have insight to the details, and at what level of world
> power that decision occurred... bigger than all
> | the competitive browser wars?
>
> | I have a strong suspicion it is related to smartphones and ad delivery.
>
>    It's partly connected with phones, insofar as
> Flash is not well suited to phones. Before phones,
> companies were making flash-only websites.
> Now they're making script-only websites. And
> the new WebAssembly is meant to improve on
> that. It's not just about ads. It's mostly about
> services and dynamic content. The Internet is
> turning into interactive TV shopping.
>
>    Everyone, including the Mozillians, is trying to keep
> up with a landscape that's changing fast. Just a few
> years ago it was the information superhighway. One
> could find information online. Now if you look at college
> students you'll see most spend their time using online
> services through their phones. It's becoming a shopping
> mall. That's what a lot of people want and there's
> money to be made. The young people, despite being
> adept at online services, are largely ignorant of how
> it all works. They just want to shop, eat out and call Uber
> taxis without malware. They want it simple and quick.
> A stripped-down UI with few options and no plugins
> helps to get that. The challenge for Firefox is to stay
> current. You don't have to keep moving with them. But
> if you do then you're going to find increasingly that
> you're using a kiosk product that shows you dynamic
> content and sells you stuff. Similarly, you don't
> have to use Windows 10, but if you keep using it
> you're going to find more of the same, as Microsoft
> gradually shuts off your control, shows you ads, and
> replaces your software with services.
>
>    Microsoft want to replace your car with a taxi service.
> A lot of people think that's just fine. You have to choose
> before they steal your car.
>
>    This is not necessarily "the future". It's a market-
> driven transition. There's less money now in hardware
> and software. So companies are trying to sell services
> and rental software.
>
>    Goodness knows why you'd even consider using Edge.
> It's basically IE with all the IE-compatible functionality
> stripped out. In Microsoft's defense, they're trying to
> get back into the browser market by following web
> standards more closely. But the IE-specific functionality
> was the only good thing about IE in the first place.
> It's an incredibly powerful and flexible piece of software,
> as long as you don't try to use it online. Without ActiveX
> and all the other goodies it's just a broken malware magnet
> that's dangerously integrated with the operating system.
> Microsoft also have another wrinkle in their strategy:
> Historically they've made their money through monopoly
> maintenance and incompatibility. That's no longer working
> so well. But they're trying to hold on through the same
> trick they've always used with IE: Build in the browser and
> make it difficult for people to switch. In that regard they're
> trying to force Edge on Windows users. On the other hand,
> they're also shooting themsleves in the foot because
> Edge is not really a browser. It's a Windows component.
> Since it can *only* run on Windows 10 and it breaks
> backward compatibility, it's not likely to be widely supported.
> I found that on my own site I had to choose between
> creating a 3rd set of webpages for Edge and the broken
> version of IE11, or not supporting them. I chose to show
> a message explaining how to set compatibility mode in
> IE11 (causing it to revert to actually being IE) and explaining
> that Edge would simply not work and couldn't be made
> to work.
>
>
>
Thanks for that detail! Very nice, very impressive!!
I think you confirmed some other disappointing thoughts I have.

I am not interested in Edge.  I was simply testing it to see if it would do better with my security cameras video dilemma!

My personal workstation is Windows 7.

I have 4 cameras on a Windows 7 system, local network.
4-more cameras on the NVR network, (and it also displays the other 4 cameras, too), and I try to handle issues on both 
networks from my main workstation  I have two Windows 10 systems in family room for the grand kids when they are here.  
They are upgrades from Windows-7, and probably better for the kids since that is the world in which they live for real.  
My Laptop rarely used, is Windows-7.

My concern is the business world that seems to be forgotten! Windows 10... is a very poor workplace workstation, and the 
smartphone (with no mouse) Portrait page design with very large fonts but small images...
     is very poor for business administration and management purposes... not to mention compatibility with 19 x 9 
monitors. 1080 and 1200 pixels high is not enough to hold all of many smartphone pages for page-up/down activity.

I can go on and on... but I do understand the format is "following the money" (ads). Business management (me too) quit 
spending money for hardware with the advent of AD FRIENDLY Windows 10. Even Microsoft said they were going into the 
smartphone OS business...
but eventually sold that.

Carl
0
king
3/18/2017 5:18:04 PM
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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On 18/03/2017 12:30, king daddy 2 wrote:
>
> (still I have no smartphone. I can't imagine holding a $600 telephone 
> near my ear.)
>

If you don't like modern technologies then why do you keep updating the 
software packages when they are not necessary?   All old software 
packages will continue to run as before on your old hardware and you 
won't have to cry about new stuffs in a public forum like this.  I 
seriously think that some of you would be better of to switch off the 
automatic updates as there is no tangible evidence that they add any new 
features.  Software packages say they are security updates but you don't 
seem to see any evidence of this so don't update them.

Just continue using what you currently have and worry about new machines 
when it is absolutely necessary.  For young people it is necessary to 
have latest gadgets because they still have years ahead of them to 
compete in the job market.




-- 
With over 500 million devices now running Windows 10, customer 
satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows.

--------------070303080301090001050302
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFBE8" text="#006600">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 18/03/2017 12:30, king daddy 2
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:mailman.465.1489840263.10544.support-firefox@lists.mozilla.org"
      type="cite"><br>
      (still I have no smartphone. I can't imagine holding a $600
      telephone near my ear.)
      <br>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    If you don't like modern technologies then why do you keep updating
    the software packages when they are not necessary?   All old
    software packages will continue to run as before on your old
    hardware and you won't have to cry about new stuffs in a public
    forum like this.  I seriously think that some of you would be better
    of to switch off the automatic updates as there is no tangible
    evidence that they add any new features.  Software packages say they
    are security updates but you don't seem to see any evidence of this
    so don't update them.<br>
    <br>
    Just continue using what you currently have and worry about new
    machines when it is absolutely necessary.  For young people it is
    necessary to have latest gadgets because they still have years ahead
    of them to compete in the job market.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
      <div class="moz-signature">
        <div style="width: 330px; background-color: blue; color:
          yellow;font-weight: bolder; font-size:150%; text-align:
          center; margin: 30px 5px 30px 5px;">With over 500 million
          devices now running Windows 10, customer satisfaction is
          higher than any previous version of windows.</div>
      </div>
    </div>
  </body>
</html>

--------------070303080301090001050302--
0
Good
3/18/2017 5:40:12 PM
CRNG wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 08:30:29 -0400, king daddy 2 <king@castle.org>
> wrote in
> <mailman.465.1489840263.10544.support-firefox@lists.mozilla.org>
>
>> Based on the briar patch in which I am stuck, and the path getting here, from windows XP to Windows 10, and the Edge
>> browser, I have a strong suspicion it is related to smartphones and ad delivery.
>
> Bingo!
>
How does getting rid of Java and flash enhance ad delivery?  Ads used to 
be delivered using flash (no idea if they still are - I use ad blockers 
and use Ask to Activate with plugins).

0
EE
3/18/2017 5:49:01 PM
On 03/18/2017 10:40 AM, David E. Ross wrote:
> On 3/18/2017 6:40 AM, Big Al wrote [in part]:
>>
>> Oddly (back to your flash request) it's odd that the thread just above
>> yours in my Thunderbird header pane is a complaint/request from Jo-Anne
>> on some way "NOT" to use Flash.   One person wants it and another
>> doesn't.
>>
>
> It would be nice if browser developers would allow us to make that
> choice ourselves.
>
Yes, wishful thinking.

0
Big
3/18/2017 7:01:36 PM
On 2017-03-18 8:30 AM, king daddy 2 wrote:
> Browser evolution eliminating Java and Flash-like functions:
>    Does anyone have insight to the details, and at what level of world
> power that decision occurred... bigger than all the competitive browser
> wars?

The functions they provide are being replaced, not eliminated.
I always find this video good for explain HTML5:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsXEVQRaTX8

> Based on the briar patch in which I am stuck, and the path getting here,
> from windows XP to Windows 10, and the Edge browser, I have a strong
> suspicion it is related to smartphones and ad delivery. The other
> side-bar benefits are simply a nice topping.

Smartphones are part of it, but this is something the industry wanted 
before then.

>
> It's my security IP cameras and remote network access that has me
> ranting and raving...
>      (Sorry! You friendly helpers and saviors of us lesser and troubled
> souls... are like the spouse that catches all the crap from the wage
> earner who comes home from a bad day at work!)
>
> I've had to upgrade camera firmware 2 times, and HKVision NVR (Linux)
> once.  Even Internet explorer 11 no longer shows the video image.
> Chrome and FF ESR 45 is also ill,

I suggest you contact them about it. Different services move off of Java 
and Flash in different ways. The only other case I'm aware of like this 
is Synology Surveillance Station, in which case they provide a desktop 
program, instead of using your browser.

> Then installation of Google Fiber complicate my life because the Linux
> NVR has it's POE (power over internet) LAN at 192.168.254.1...
>     as does Google fiber Network box (with four Cat5e ports) has it's
> LAN there.

That has nothing to do with the browser or plugins.

-- 
Chris Ilias <http://ilias.ca>
Mailing list/Newsgroup moderator
0
Chris
3/18/2017 8:12:04 PM
On 3/18/2017 10:09 AM, Ed Mullen wrote:
> On 3/18/2017 at 8:30 AM, king daddy 2's prodigious digits fired off with great aplomb:
>> Browser evolution eliminating Java and Flash-like functions:
>>     Does anyone have insight to the details, and at what level of world power that decision occurred... bigger than 
>> all the competitive browser wars?
>
> Well, this might help:
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPAPI>
>
Wow!
Awesome, PHD level, encyclopedia level of detailed information!
Thank you so much.
Now I understand better... how little I know.

Carl
0
king
3/19/2017 12:11:41 AM
"king daddy 2" <king@castle.org> wrote

| > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPAPI>

| Now I understand better... how little I know.
|

  Lots of technical talk there, but it really tells you
nothing about why things are happening the way they are.

  All it's really describing is that some browsers are
set up to allow integration of a separate, small program.
That's the plugin. ActiveX controls are similar. Shell
extensions in Windows are also similar. (Toolbars, Explorer
Bars, etc.)

  Imagine having a clock option in Notepad, if Notepad
could have plugins. Someone would write a little program
that shows a little window with a clock in it. You install
the clock. What makes it a plugin is that Notepad loads
the clock program every time it starts. And the clock
program is required to deal with messages from Notepad.
So if you click a menu in Notepad for "Show Clock", Notepad
sends a message to the clock program: "Hey, make your
window visible at these coordinates..."
   They talk to each other to cooperate. That allows the
clock to show where it's supposed to and appear to be
integrated with Notepad.

  Something like an Explorer Bar in Windows Explorer is
similar. It's typically a separate program but it communicates
with Explorer so that they can work together. Thus, when
you select a file on the right a thumbnail or some such
can be rendered on the left, because Explorer sends a
message to the Explorer Bar program, telling it the path
of the selected file. (Which is part of what makes IE so risky.
If you install an Explorer Bar or some other shell extensions,
that component can monitor your IE activity because IE
and Explorer are linked together.)

  Other examples of ActiveX controls or plugins could be
music or video applets that might play in webpages. They
have their own little window with controls, which allows for
"rich" functionality, because it's actually a separate program.
Same thing with Adobe Acrobat Reader: They made a plugin
version that can talk to the browser in order to show it's
window inside the browser window and thereby make it look
like a webpage.

   NPAPI is just the general protocol for making sure the
browser and the plugin can interoperate smoothly.

   The only significant point about all this is that Firefox
is getting locked down for security. Extras are getting
sandboxed. Extensions will have limited functionality in
the future and plugins -- as separate but linked programs
-- will be eliminated. 


0
Mayayana
3/19/2017 12:57:55 AM
In message 
<mailman.480.1489854644.10543.support-firefox@lists.mozilla.org>, 
Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> writes:
[]
>version of IE11, or not supporting them. I chose to show
>a message explaining how to set compatibility mode in
>IE11 (causing it to revert to actually being IE) and explaining
>that Edge would simply not work and couldn't be made
>to work.
>
I love this - it's a delicious change of emphasis: not "This page 
doesn't work with <insert browser>", but "<insert browser> doesn't work 
with this page". Excellent!
>
>
(We should take any further discussion to mozilla.general, though.)
-- 
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

..... referendum coverage is available with subtitles for the deaf, audio
description for the blind, and ITV for the thick. - Dead Ringers, 2016-6-25
0
J
3/19/2017 3:57:26 PM
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG-255@255soft.uk> wrote

| I love this - it's a delicious change of emphasis: not "This page
| doesn't work with <insert browser>", but "<insert browser> doesn't work
| with this page". Excellent!

  I'm not sure I actually put it that way. Actually my focus
was on just getting the information across concisely. People
tend to be impatient. It's amazing how many people visit
for something specific, get the error message, then don't
bother to reload the page. I imagine most of those didn't
even have the patience to read the message.

| (We should take any further discussion to mozilla.general, though.)

  Funny you should mention that. I subscribed to
mozilla.general recently but found it to be littered with
nonsense. The same people who are well behaved here
are over there posting nonsense prattle about Trump,
auto regulations, and whatever else happens to cross
their minds. I unsubscribed after a few days.


0
Mayayana
3/19/2017 4:50:02 PM
In message 
<mailman.506.1489942255.10543.support-firefox@lists.mozilla.org>, 
Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> writes:
>"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG-255@255soft.uk> wrote
[]
>| (We should take any further discussion to mozilla.general, though.)
>
>  Funny you should mention that. I subscribed to
>mozilla.general recently but found it to be littered with
>nonsense. The same people who are well behaved here
>are over there posting nonsense prattle about Trump,
>auto regulations, and whatever else happens to cross
>their minds. I unsubscribed after a few days.
>
Yes, but Chris I. doesn't like us wandering too far off the topic of 
"helping others with using Firefox" - which is reasonable, I think.
>
2
-- 
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

… too popular actually to be any good. - Alison Graham in Radio Times 2-8
February 2013
0
J
3/19/2017 7:36:02 PM
Reply: