Is dev-platform for platform users or platform developers?

So since dev-tech-xpcom closed, there's been an awful lot of traffic
on dev-platform from platform users.  I don't really have time to
read this, and it probably means I'll be paying less attention to
the platform developer traffic on dev-platform (if any at all; I'd
long since unsubscribed to dev-tech-xpcom until told to resubscribe
to follow the XPCOM memory management discussion).

Does this discussion belong on dev-platform, or should it be
redirected elsewhere?

-David

-- 
L. David Baron                                 http://dbaron.org/
Mozilla Corporation                       http://www.mozilla.com/
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L
9/10/2007 11:45:24 PM
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L. David Baron wrote:
> So since dev-tech-xpcom closed, there's been an awful lot of traffic
> on dev-platform from platform users.  I don't really have time to
> read this, and it probably means I'll be paying less attention to
> the platform developer traffic on dev-platform (if any at all; I'd
> long since unsubscribed to dev-tech-xpcom until told to resubscribe
> to follow the XPCOM memory management discussion).

I really object to m.d.t.xpcom being removed due to a bugzilla bug with 
too few parties cc'ed. I've reopened that bug and I am trying to get the 
group recreated.

> Does this discussion belong on dev-platform, or should it be
> redirected elsewhere?

The only sane answer is that this group is for platform developers, not 
users. That is, for those of us developing the Mozilla platform code.

/be
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Brendan
9/11/2007 12:23:53 AM
L. David Baron wrote:
> So since dev-tech-xpcom closed, there's been an awful lot of traffic
> on dev-platform from platform users.  I don't really have time to
> read this, and it probably means I'll be paying less attention to
> the platform developer traffic on dev-platform (if any at all; I'd
> long since unsubscribed to dev-tech-xpcom until told to resubscribe
> to follow the XPCOM memory management discussion).
> 
> Does this discussion belong on dev-platform, or should it be
> redirected elsewhere?

I don't think we should be making blanket statements that md.platform is for
platform developers only... there's a lot of gray area between developers
and users. But we should definitely be pushing inexperienced questioners to
md.extensions or md.embedding.

--BDS
0
Benjamin
9/11/2007 1:55:04 AM
Benjamin Smedberg wrote:
> L. David Baron wrote:
>> So since dev-tech-xpcom closed, there's been an awful lot of traffic
>> on dev-platform from platform users.  I don't really have time to
>> read this, and it probably means I'll be paying less attention to
>> the platform developer traffic on dev-platform (if any at all; I'd
>> long since unsubscribed to dev-tech-xpcom until told to resubscribe
>> to follow the XPCOM memory management discussion).
>>
>> Does this discussion belong on dev-platform, or should it be
>> redirected elsewhere?
> 
> I don't think we should be making blanket statements that md.platform is for
> platform developers only... there's a lot of gray area between developers
> and users. But we should definitely be pushing inexperienced questioners to
> md.extensions or md.embedding.

I should point out that m.c.mozpad was set up exactly for this purpose 
(i.e. for developers who are using Mozilla platforms).

Matt
0
Matthew
9/11/2007 7:56:03 AM
Brendan Eich wrote:
> L. David Baron wrote:
>> Does this discussion belong on dev-platform, or should it be
>> redirected elsewhere?
> 
> The only sane answer is that this group is for platform developers, not 
> users. That is, for those of us developing the Mozilla platform code.

There are significant benefits to mixing platform users with developers. 
  First, interacting with developers is a great way for platform users 
to learn about the platform, and second, it provides a path to evolve 
those users into developers.

Nevertheless, mixing the groups isn't worth it if it costs us the 
participation of core platform hackers like dbaron and the transparency 
of public discussions on these topics.

So for key issues/technologies that require focused discussion between 
principals, we should set up public fora with restricted posting rights 
that we grant to those with the interest and aptitude for the subjects 
in question.

-myk
0
Myk
9/11/2007 8:03:05 AM
Myk Melez wrote on 11. Sep 2007

>>> Does this discussion belong on dev-platform, or should it be
>>> redirected elsewhere?
>> 
>> The only sane answer is that this group is for platform 
>> developers, not users. That is, for those of us developing 
>> the Mozilla platform code.
> 
> There are significant benefits to mixing platform users with 
> developers. First, interacting with developers is a great way 
> for platform users to learn about the platform, and second, it 
> provides a path to evolve those users into developers.

Platform users should not be encouraged to ask implementatio
questions in mdp, but I think their input and feedback is valuabl
if questions on platform enhancements and further platfor
development arise

> Nevertheless, mixing the groups isn't worth it if it costs us the 
> participation of core platform hackers like dbaron and the 
> transparency of public discussions on these topics.
> 
> So for key issues/technologies that require focused discussion 
> between principals, we should set up public fora with restricted 
> posting rights that we grant to those with the interest and 
> aptitude for the subjects in question.

I think that the openness of the current newsgroups is a ke
improvement over the old times, where many discussions took plac
on closed mailing lists and no communication was done betwee
public and private forums

In addition, every newsreader that I know of is able to ignore thread
and most user implementation questions are easily to identify b
looking at the subject line, so I don't think that having a fe
implementation questions here and there, requires too much effor
from the key platform developers

Cy
Simo

--
Calendar l10n coordinator
Calendar Website Maintainer: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar
Calendar developer blog:     http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/calendar
0
Simon
9/11/2007 9:49:39 AM
On Tuesday 2007-09-11 11:49 +0200, Simon Paquet wrote:
> In addition, every newsreader that I know of is able to ignore threads
> and most user implementation questions are easily to identify by
> looking at the subject line, so I don't think that having a few
> implementation questions here and there, requires too much effort
> from the key platform developers.

I get the groups that are important to me by email.  I have a
newsreader, and every few months I might remember to look at what's
going on in some of the other groups, but usually I don't look at
all.

Right now everything that doesn't arrive as email or RSS I will
stop looking at regularly when I'm busy, and maybe or maybe not
remember to start looking again when I become less busy.

-David

-- 
L. David Baron                                 http://dbaron.org/
Mozilla Corporation                       http://www.mozilla.com/
0
L
9/11/2007 11:56:42 AM
On Sep 11, 1:03 am, Myk Melez <m...@mozilla.org> wrote:
> Brendan Eich wrote:
> > L. David Baron wrote:
> >> Does this discussion belong on dev-platform, or should it be
> >> redirected elsewhere?
>
> > The only sane answer is that this group is for platform developers, not
> > users. That is, for those of us developing the Mozilla platform code.
>
> There are significant benefits to mixing platform users with developers.

You're right, and I shouldn't have replied in haste. What I meant to
write was that we don't want users asking n00b or off-topic questions
repeatedly, drowning out the platform design discussions. The design
discussions are absolutely better with user as well as developer
feedback. No ivory-tower architecture. Benjamin made this point well,
and it applies to other groups already (e.g., mdt.js-engine).

With newsgroups there is no cure for off-topic posts. People need to
remind posters gently one on one, and perhaps with a regularly posted
message steering people to the right groups.

/be

0
brendan
9/11/2007 4:12:00 PM
L. David Baron wrote:
> I don't really have time to
> read this, and it probably means I'll be paying less attention to
> the platform developer traffic on dev-platform (if any at all; I'd
> long since unsubscribed to dev-tech-xpcom until told to resubscribe
> to follow the XPCOM memory management discussion).

For what it's worth, that's exactly the situation I'm in too (including 
unsubscribing and resubscribing).

-Boris

0
Boris
9/12/2007 3:53:38 PM
Just to follow up on this....  In the last three days, .platform has what look 
like 3 on-topic posts and 25 posts that don't really belong there.  In practice, 
when someone asks an extension development question people answer it instead of 
redirecting them to another newsgroup.

I'm pretty seriously considering unsubscribing from .platform (or rather 
switching to reading it via the newsreader once a month or so), because the 
noise-to-signal ratio makes it not worth trying to deal with on a daily basis.

-Boris

0
Boris
9/19/2007 3:42:11 PM
On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 10:42:11 -0500, Boris Zbarsky wrote:

> Just to follow up on this....  In the last three days, .platform has what look 
> like 3 on-topic posts and 25 posts that don't really belong there.  In practice, 
> when someone asks an extension development question people answer it instead of 
> redirecting them to another newsgroup.

That's because m.d.t.xpcom was closed and people posting questions there
were officially redirected /here/.

> I'm pretty seriously considering unsubscribing from .platform (or rather 
> switching to reading it via the newsreader once a month or so), because the 
> noise-to-signal ratio makes it not worth trying to deal with on a daily basis.

Well this wouldn't have happened if m.d.t.xpcom wasn't closed, in the
middle of an on topic thread even! (there is a bug to reopen it so you
could consider voting for it).

Phil

-- 
Philip Chee <philip@aleytys.pc.my>, <philip.chee@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
[ ]Don't hit me, Mr. Moderator...I'll get back on topic now!
* TagZilla 0.066.6

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Philip
9/20/2007 5:28:12 PM
Philip Chee wrote:
> Well this wouldn't have happened if m.d.t.xpcom wasn't closed, in the
> middle of an on topic thread even! (there is a bug to reopen it so you
> could consider voting for it).

The bug is 385041 <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=385041>, 
and the newsgroup is mostly back already (except that you can't yet post 
to it from Google Groups).

-myk
0
Myk
9/20/2007 10:37:29 PM
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