Helping localize "pluralForm" for Firefox 3 Beta 3

The fix for bug 394516 includes a new set of strings to localize so that 
the plural forms of words are correctly shown. E.g., "1 word" vs "2 words"

More information is available on devmo:
http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Localization_and_Plurals

I've written up an extension that you can use with builds since Jan. 
23rd which should help localizers check to make sure the new strings 
have the correct number of plural forms.

pluralForm Checker Extension:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=298688

A screenshot of it in action:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=298686

-- 
Ed
0
Edward
1/23/2008 10:44:19 AM
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On Jan 23, 2008 4:44 AM, Edward Lee <edilee@mozilla.com> wrote:
> The fix for bug 394516 includes a new set of strings to localize so that
> the plural forms of words are correctly shown. E.g., "1 word" vs "2 words"
>
> More information is available on devmo:
> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Localization_and_Plurals
>
> I've written up an extension that you can use with builds since Jan.
> 23rd which should help localizers check to make sure the new strings
> have the correct number of plural forms.
>
> pluralForm Checker Extension:
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=298688
>
> A screenshot of it in action:
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=298686
>


Thanks for this Ed.  I'm happy to be able to do plurals correctly now.

One problem for Irish (ga_IE) is that the GNU gettext manual is wrong
- it only lists three plural forms (1, 2, and everything else), but in
fact there are at least 5.   The Plural-Forms string we have been
using for some time now looks like this:

Plural-Forms: nplurals=5; plural=n==1 ? 0 : (n==2) ? 1 : (n>2 && n<7)
? 2 : (n>6 && n<11) ? 3 : 4;

There's more info about this in the bug where we fixed this in KDE:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=96127

Shall I file a new bug here too, or add it on to 394516?

Kevin
0
Kevin
1/23/2008 3:06:16 PM
Kevin Scannell wrote:
> On Jan 23, 2008 4:44 AM, Edward Lee <edilee@mozilla.com> wrote:
>> The fix for bug 394516 includes a new set of strings to localize so that
>> the plural forms of words are correctly shown. E.g., "1 word" vs "2 words"
>>
>> More information is available on devmo:
>> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Localization_and_Plurals
>>
>> I've written up an extension that you can use with builds since Jan.
>> 23rd which should help localizers check to make sure the new strings
>> have the correct number of plural forms.
>>
>> pluralForm Checker Extension:
>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=298688
>>
>> A screenshot of it in action:
>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=298686
>>
> 
> 
> Thanks for this Ed.  I'm happy to be able to do plurals correctly now.
> 
> One problem for Irish (ga_IE) is that the GNU gettext manual is wrong
> - it only lists three plural forms (1, 2, and everything else), but in
> fact there are at least 5.   The Plural-Forms string we have been
> using for some time now looks like this:
> 
> Plural-Forms: nplurals=5; plural=n==1 ? 0 : (n==2) ? 1 : (n>2 && n<7)
> ? 2 : (n>6 && n<11) ? 3 : 4;
> 
> There's more info about this in the bug where we fixed this in KDE:
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=96127
> 
> Shall I file a new bug here too, or add it on to 394516?
> 
> Kevin

File a bug in Core, Localization, CC me and Ed?

Ed wanted to add that buglink to the mdc page, not sure if has it around 
somewhere still. Didn't expect to see change request coming in that 
early, though.

Ed has been using regexps instead of ternaries, could you come up with 
one that looks like the ones in 
http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/intl/locale/src/PluralForm.jsm#59 
for him? If so, add that to the bug?

Thanks

Axel
0
Axel
1/23/2008 4:07:37 PM
Kevin Scannell wrote:
> Shall I file a new bug here too, or add it on to 394516?
Thanks for taking a look so quickly. File a new bug for this.

-- 
Ed
0
Edward
1/23/2008 4:07:55 PM
Edward Lee napisa:
> The fix for bug 394516 includes a new set of strings to localize so that 
> the plural forms of words are correctly shown. E.g., "1 word" vs "2 words"
> 
> More information is available on devmo:
> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Localization_and_Plurals

Though the Sorbian locale is not official, I'd like to present the 
Sorbian plural rule. Sorbian has rule 10, the same like Slovenian.

According to the examples on above mentioned devmo page it looks as follows:

pluralRule=10
seconds=sekunda;sekundźe;sekundy;sekundow
minutes=mjeńšina;mjeńšinje;mjeńšiny;mjeńšin
hours=hodźina;hodźinje;hodźiny;hodźin
days=dźeń;dnjej;dny;dnjow

The forms mean:
ends in 1: 1, 101, 201, 301... = nominative singular;
ends in 2: 2, 102, 202, 302... = nominative dual;
ends in 3 and 4: 3, 4, 103, 104, 203, 204, 303, 304... = nominative plural
everything else: 0, 5-100, 105-200, 205-300, 305-400 = genitive plural
0
Michael
1/23/2008 4:36:54 PM
Axel Hecht wrote:
> Ed has been using regexps instead of ternaries, could you come up with 
> one that looks like the ones in 
> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/intl/locale/src/PluralForm.jsm#59 
Actually, those are ternaries.. just compacted together without spacing ;)

I'll probably use..

function(n) n==1?0:n==2?1:n=>3&&n<=6?2:n=>7&&n<=10?3:4

(Just to be explicit on the end conditions with [3,6] and [7,10].. 
instead of (2,7) and (6,11) non-inclusive.)

-- 
Ed
0
Edward
1/23/2008 4:48:01 PM
Michael Wolf wrote:
> Though the Sorbian locale is not official, I'd like to present the 
> Sorbian plural rule. Sorbian has rule 10, the same like Slovenian.
> 
> According to the examples on above mentioned devmo page it looks as 
> follows:
> seconds=sekunda;sekundźe;sekundy;sekundow
> ...
Thanks. I've added this example to the examples section and Sorbian to 
the Slavic family under rule 10.

(The examples doesn't have to be an exhaustive list for all languages, 
but I included Sorbian for the names of each plural form: nominative 
plural, etc.)

If your language isn't listed under a plural rule for "Families:", feel 
free to add it in. I noticed Toniher added Catalan for rule 1. :)

-- 
Ed
0
Edward
1/23/2008 4:58:18 PM
Edward Lee napisa:
> Thanks. I've added this example to the examples section and Sorbian to 
> the Slavic family under rule 10.
> 
> (The examples doesn't have to be an exhaustive list for all languages, 
> but I included Sorbian for the names of each plural form: nominative 
> plural, etc.)
> 
> If your language isn't listed under a plural rule for "Families:", feel 
> free to add it in. I noticed Toniher added Catalan for rule 1. :)

Thanks, Toni sent me an email telling me I could edit. But I had to 
create an account at first. Unfortunately I don't get an confirmation 
mail though I've already asked for sending this several times. I don't 
know who don't want to that: the Wiki server or my E-mail provider. But, 
without confirmed e-mail address I can't edit.

Edward, you made a small error. Under the Polish example was a sentence 
which is under the Sorbian now. But it belongs to the Polish example for 
"days". You erroneously insterted the Sorbian example before this 
sentence instead behind it.

0
Michael
1/23/2008 6:18:37 PM
On Wed, 2008-01-23 at 09:06 -0600, Kevin Scannell wrote:
> On Jan 23, 2008 4:44 AM, Edward Lee <edilee@mozilla.com> wrote:
> > The fix for bug 394516 includes a new set of strings to localize so
> that
> > the plural forms of words are correctly shown. E.g., "1 word" vs "2
> words"
> >
> > More information is available on devmo:
> > http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Localization_and_Plurals
> >
> > I've written up an extension that you can use with builds since Jan.
> > 23rd which should help localizers check to make sure the new strings
> > have the correct number of plural forms.
> >
> > pluralForm Checker Extension:
> > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=298688
> >
> > A screenshot of it in action:
> > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=298686
> >
> 
> 
> Thanks for this Ed.  I'm happy to be able to do plurals correctly now.
> 
> One problem for Irish (ga_IE) is that the GNU gettext manual is wrong
> - it only lists three plural forms (1, 2, and everything else), but in
> fact there are at least 5.   The Plural-Forms string we have been
> using for some time now looks like this:
> 
> Plural-Forms: nplurals=5; plural=n==1 ? 0 : (n==2) ? 1 : (n>2 && n<7)
> ? 2 : (n>6 && n<11) ? 3 : 4;

Kevin, and Ed, we've been collecting plural forms for various languages
on this page:
http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/l10n/pluralforms

We use this to help determine plurals for Pootle and the plural checker
in the Translate Toolkit[1].  But others use the page when they don't
know what the form for their language should be.

I notice that Irish is incorrect on the list above.  It would be great
if others could also check their languages, update them if needed, or
add them if missing (Send them direct to me if you don't want another
login and password)

[1]
http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/toolkit/pofilter_tests#nplurals

-- 
Dwayne Bailey
Translate.org.za

+27-12-460-1095 (w)
+27-83-443-7114 (cell)

0
Dwayne
1/24/2008 7:16:17 AM
On Wed, 2008-01-23 at 10:07 -0600, Edward Lee wrote:
> Kevin Scannell wrote:
> > Shall I file a new bug here too, or add it on to 394516?
> Thanks for taking a look so quickly. File a new bug for this.

Hi Ed,

Since we need to consider how we might handle this plural form handling
in moz2po I was hoping you could give some more development centric
explanation of how this new feature works.

At the moment with moz2po things will simply work as normal but
translators would need to be aware of the format, much like any text
editor translator would.  But it would be nice to use the PO format
plural system if it makes sense.

I hope you can give some answers to these which will help us decide if
its worth the effort:
a) It uses the Gettext plural equations (or at least is based from
them).  We're most interest in the idea that we now that there would be
N items in the list.
b) It is applied to individual words not to strings (this comment
highlights a problem with that method 
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=394516#c111 ).  Personally
it would have been nice if this mimicked the Gettext approach so that we
could be plurals in many other places.
c) It only affects .properties (.dtd doesn't have this feature from what
I see)
d) It only occurs in chrome/global/intl.properties (or is that place
only for the definition 'pluralRule'
e) How do you now if a string should be made plural?  From this
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=298612&action=diff#a/toolkit/locales/en-US/chrome/mozapps/downloads/downloads.properties_sec1 it seems that there is only a comment before the items and nothing specific in the 'name' to show that it is a plural list.




-- 
Dwayne Bailey
Translate.org.za

+27-12-460-1095 (w)
+27-83-443-7114 (cell)

0
Dwayne
1/24/2008 8:15:56 AM
On Jan 24, 2008 9:15 AM, Dwayne Bailey <dwayne@translate.org.za> wrote:
>
> b) It is applied to individual words not to strings (this comment
> highlights a problem with that method
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=394516#c111 ).  Personally
> it would have been nice if this mimicked the Gettext approach so that we
> could be plurals in many other places.

This also affects eu.

For example, if you take a *single word*:
- "minute" -> "minutu"
- "minutes" -> "minutuak"

But when it's not a single word but a *sentence* with numbers:
- "1 minute" -> "minutu 1" (and much better "minutu bat")
- "X minutes" -> "X minutu"
Here the plural changes the order of the sentence, not the word
itself. So having plural for single words doesn't make sense for us.
On the other hand, the Gettext approach works fine since you can
change the order of the elements in the sentence.

The problem extends to verbs too. In "timeLeftSingle" for instance:
- "#1 remaining" -> "#1 falta da"  if (count(#1) == 1)
                        -> "#1 falta dira"  if (count(#1) != 1)


Julen.
0
Julen
1/24/2008 10:23:59 AM
Julen wrote:
> On Jan 24, 2008 9:15 AM, Dwayne Bailey <dwayne@translate.org.za> wrote:
>> b) It is applied to individual words not to strings (this comment
>> highlights a problem with that method
>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=394516#c111 ).  Personally
>> it would have been nice if this mimicked the Gettext approach so that we
>> could be plurals in many other places.
> 
> This also affects eu.
> 
> For example, if you take a *single word*:
> - "minute" -> "minutu"
> - "minutes" -> "minutuak"
> 
> But when it's not a single word but a *sentence* with numbers:
> - "1 minute" -> "minutu 1" (and much better "minutu bat")
> - "X minutes" -> "X minutu"
> Here the plural changes the order of the sentence, not the word
> itself. So having plural for single words doesn't make sense for us.
> On the other hand, the Gettext approach works fine since you can
> change the order of the elements in the sentence.
> 
> The problem extends to verbs too. In "timeLeftSingle" for instance:
> - "#1 remaining" -> "#1 falta da"  if (count(#1) == 1)
>                         -> "#1 falta dira"  if (count(#1) != 1)
> 
> 
> Julen.

The problem is that in this specific usecase, we have multiple numbers 
in the single phrase,

2 minutes, 32 seconds remaining

and gettext doesn't handle that as well. You fall back to compositing 
that phrase out of two plural'ed strings, and that must fail for some 
languages.

One of the deficiencies of gettext, and this approach.

l20n for the win. Later.

Axel
0
Axel
1/24/2008 11:57:14 AM
Dwayne Bailey wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-01-23 at 10:07 -0600, Edward Lee wrote:
>> Kevin Scannell wrote:
>>> Shall I file a new bug here too, or add it on to 394516?
>> Thanks for taking a look so quickly. File a new bug for this.
> 
> Hi Ed,
> 
> Since we need to consider how we might handle this plural form handling
> in moz2po I was hoping you could give some more development centric
> explanation of how this new feature works.
> 
> At the moment with moz2po things will simply work as normal but
> translators would need to be aware of the format, much like any text
> editor translator would.  But it would be nice to use the PO format
> plural system if it makes sense.
> 
> I hope you can give some answers to these which will help us decide if
> its worth the effort:
> a) It uses the Gettext plural equations (or at least is based from
> them).  We're most interest in the idea that we now that there would be
> N items in the list.

As said elsewhere, we forked from gettext, as did you. Sadly, I assume 
that we already forked in different directions. Not sure if we can still 
fix that.

> b) It is applied to individual words not to strings (this comment
> highlights a problem with that method 
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=394516#c111 ).  Personally
> it would have been nice if this mimicked the Gettext approach so that we
> could be plurals in many other places.

See my other comment in this thread.

> c) It only affects .properties (.dtd doesn't have this feature from what
> I see)

Yes, DTDs don't have params in the first place.

> d) It only occurs in chrome/global/intl.properties (or is that place
> only for the definition 'pluralRule'

That is only the definition for pluralRule, you can use that rule 
anywhere in js code, referencing any .properties file you like. Note, 
c++ is currently not supported, as the logic is in a js module.

> e) How do you now if a string should be made plural?  From this
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=298612&action=diff#a/toolkit/locales/en-US/chrome/mozapps/downloads/downloads.properties_sec1 it seems that there is only a comment before the items and nothing specific in the 'name' to show that it is a plural list.

There's currently no better way than to add localization notes to that 
extent. If someone adds a plural use without a corresponding 
localization note, please file a bug and CC me.

Axel
0
Axel
1/24/2008 12:00:20 PM
On Thu, 2008-01-24 at 13:00 +0100, Axel Hecht wrote:
> Dwayne Bailey wrote:
> > On Wed, 2008-01-23 at 10:07 -0600, Edward Lee wrote:
> >> Kevin Scannell wrote:
> >>> Shall I file a new bug here too, or add it on to 394516?
> >> Thanks for taking a look so quickly. File a new bug for this.
> > 
> > Hi Ed,
> > 
> > Since we need to consider how we might handle this plural form handling
> > in moz2po I was hoping you could give some more development centric
> > explanation of how this new feature works.
> > 
> > At the moment with moz2po things will simply work as normal but
> > translators would need to be aware of the format, much like any text
> > editor translator would.  But it would be nice to use the PO format
> > plural system if it makes sense.
> > 
> > I hope you can give some answers to these which will help us decide if
> > its worth the effort:
> > a) It uses the Gettext plural equations (or at least is based from
> > them).  We're most interest in the idea that we now that there would be
> > N items in the list.
> 
> As said elsewhere, we forked from gettext, as did you. Sadly, I assume 
> that we already forked in different directions. Not sure if we can still 
> fix that.

Its a pity that the equations forked, but not a train smash.  As long as
I know how many plurals all is OK as the equation is a runtime issue.

> > e) How do you now if a string should be made plural?  From this
> > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=298612&action=diff#a/toolkit/locales/en-US/chrome/mozapps/downloads/downloads.properties_sec1 it seems that there is only a comment before the items and nothing specific in the 'name' to show that it is a plural list.
> 
> There's currently no better way than to add localization notes to that 
> extent. If someone adds a plural use without a corresponding 
> localization note, please file a bug and CC me.

I can't assume anything with a semi-colon is a plural?

Can we at least define a standard Localization note so that both humans
and machines can use the info?  Can I suggest:
LOCALIZATION NOTE: PLURAL (entity)

-- 
Dwayne Bailey
Translate.org.za

+27-12-460-1095 (w)
+27-83-443-7114 (cell)

0
Dwayne
1/30/2008 11:20:23 PM
Dwayne Bailey wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-01-24 at 13:00 +0100, Axel Hecht wrote:
>> Dwayne Bailey wrote:
>>> On Wed, 2008-01-23 at 10:07 -0600, Edward Lee wrote:
>>>> Kevin Scannell wrote:
>>>>> Shall I file a new bug here too, or add it on to 394516?
>>>> Thanks for taking a look so quickly. File a new bug for this.
>>> Hi Ed,
>>>
>>> Since we need to consider how we might handle this plural form handling
>>> in moz2po I was hoping you could give some more development centric
>>> explanation of how this new feature works.
>>>
>>> At the moment with moz2po things will simply work as normal but
>>> translators would need to be aware of the format, much like any text
>>> editor translator would.  But it would be nice to use the PO format
>>> plural system if it makes sense.
>>>
>>> I hope you can give some answers to these which will help us decide if
>>> its worth the effort:
>>> a) It uses the Gettext plural equations (or at least is based from
>>> them).  We're most interest in the idea that we now that there would be
>>> N items in the list.
>> As said elsewhere, we forked from gettext, as did you. Sadly, I assume 
>> that we already forked in different directions. Not sure if we can still 
>> fix that.
> 
> Its a pity that the equations forked, but not a train smash.  As long as
> I know how many plurals all is OK as the equation is a runtime issue.
> 
>>> e) How do you now if a string should be made plural?  From this
>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=298612&action=diff#a/toolkit/locales/en-US/chrome/mozapps/downloads/downloads.properties_sec1 it seems that there is only a comment before the items and nothing specific in the 'name' to show that it is a plural list.
>> There's currently no better way than to add localization notes to that 
>> extent. If someone adds a plural use without a corresponding 
>> localization note, please file a bug and CC me.
> 
> I can't assume anything with a semi-colon is a plural?
> 
> Can we at least define a standard Localization note so that both humans
> and machines can use the info?  Can I suggest:
> LOCALIZATION NOTE: PLURAL (entity)
> 

Given how stressed things are right now, I wouldn't bet money on it. We 
don't have a successful tree policy around localization notes in 
general. We do get better at it, but we're still far away from being 
consistent, or having a common knowledge in our coding community that 
there are docs on how to do those.

What we landed is really a "well, ok, let's use the crappy hack that 
gettext has for now" rather than a well engineered solution, and I'm not 
sure that making this machine readable is the right thing.

Not that I know how much of what we do in terms of localization notes is 
actually red by machines, starting with

# LOCALIZATION NOTE (foo, bar): %1$S is your mother
foo = %1$S loves me
bar = %1$S is the best mom of the world

and such. Like, there's a whole lot of semi-implied or not gray here, so 
I think we should focus on humans.

Axel
0
Axel
1/31/2008 12:50:36 AM
Reply:

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Firefox Beta 3
Name: Will Blanchette Email: blanchettebbataoldotcom Product: Firefox Summary: Firefox Beta 3 - Download Manager is lacking "clear list" and "remove" options Comments: The download manager for the Firefox 3 Beta seems to work better than version 2 for pausing and getting large files, but after only one try I miss the quick links to options like, "open," "clear list," and "remove from list." Obviously, you can just double-click to open or right click to open a list of the options, but the other set-up was more direct. Browse...

Firefox 3 beta 3
Name: Rob Morris Email: robmoatstanfordalumnidotorg Product: Firefox Release Candidate Summary: Firefox 3 beta 3 - Can't scroll "disabled plugins" dialog Comments: I get a list of failed plugins (not 3.0 capable) on startup. The list itself has ~20 plugins listed. I can't see how many, exactly, because when I try to drag the scroll control, it won't go down. It "jumps" a bit down, then immediately back to the top. Very odd behavior. Browser Details: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9b3) Gecko/2008020514 Firefox/3.0b3 ...

Firefox 3 Beta 3
Name: Keith M. Email: keith0256atgmaildotcom Product: Firefox Release Candidate Summary: Firefox 3 Beta 3 - two "Get Bookmark Add-ons". on Bookmarks menu Comments: Nothing to add, just seeing two menu choices that both say "Get Bookmark Add-ons", both have the blue plus icon in front of them. I am not currently running any bookmark add-ons. Browser Details: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9b3) Gecko/2008020514 Firefox/3.0b3 ...

"Ads by Google" at ecatholichub.net moves when scrolling on Firefox 3.1 Beta 3
Name: Anonymous User Product: Shiretoko Summary: "Ads by Google" at ecatholichub.net moves when scrolling on Firefox 3.1 Beta 3 Comments: 1. Open Firefox 3.1 Beta 3 2. Go to: http://www.ecatholichub.net/ 3. Scroll down and up, you would notice "Ads by Google" on the right side of the screen moving as you scroll. That's not supposed to happen. Browser Details: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3) Gecko/20090305 Firefox/3.1b3 (.NET CLR 3.5.30729) From URL: http://hendrix.mozilla.org/ Note to readers: Hendrix gives no expectat...

buggy "incompatible Add-ons" window during 1st launch of Firefox 3 Beta 3
Name: Matthew Sanchez Email: junk12atcoxdotnet Product: Firefox Release Candidate Summary: buggy "incompatible Add-ons" window during 1st launch of Firefox 3 Beta 3 Comments: After installing Firefox 3 Beta 3 and Firefox 3 is launched for the 1st time, the window displaying the incompatible Add-Ons does not scroll properly. The last item in the window (assuming the # of listed items is larger than the window) only shows the top half of the text, and when scrolling the window the text jumbles together as well. Browser Details: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5....

FF 3 beta 3
Name: Jeff Reynolds Email: jeffdotkvnfatgmaildotcom Product: Firefox Release Candidate Summary: FF 3 beta 3 - "send link" or "mailto:" doesn't work if T-Bird already running Comments: Howdy! If Thunderbird is already running, Firefox3 b3 returns an error message if a "mailto:" link is clicked or the "Send Link" menu item is selected. text: "Thunderbird is already running but is not responding. To open a new window you must first close the existing Thunderbird process or restart your system." Win XP, T-Bird 2.0.0.9, Fir...

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Resources last updated: 12/24/2015 5:07:06 PM