Java support in Firefox

I do not know if this is off topic for this list. If it is please forgive 
me. I am not sure who to ask. I am finding Firefox's Java support to be 
weak. Internet Explorer seems to work much better with web pages that use 
alot of Java (ie web stock pages) and /or webpages with a ".asp" extension. 
Is this a known problem and can be fixed?

----
Angus MacKinnon
MacKinnon Crest Saying
Latin -  Audentes Fortuna Juvat
English - Fortune Assists The Daring
Web page http://www.infoforce-services.com
Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. 2nd Vice president
http://www.choroideremia.org

0
Visually
6/27/2006 6:58:39 AM
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Java applet accessibility in Firefox is indeed weak.  Believe it or not, 
you're the first person to ask about it. I agree it should be fixed, 
although at the moment I'm not sure what we need to do, or who should do it.

As far as .ASP or other technologies related to serving web pages, that 
is not a problem for Firefox. ASP is just used like PHP -- to 
dynamically serve up different HTML depending on the current user's 
situation. Perhaps the ASP pages you're visiting have some other issues.

- Aaron

Visually Insane Genetically Modified Organism wrote:
> I do not know if this is off topic for this list. If it is please 
> forgive me. I am not sure who to ask. I am finding Firefox's Java 
> support to be weak. Internet Explorer seems to work much better with web 
> pages that use alot of Java (ie web stock pages) and /or webpages with a 
> ".asp" extension. Is this a known problem and can be fixed?
> 
> ----
> Angus MacKinnon
> MacKinnon Crest Saying
> Latin -  Audentes Fortuna Juvat
> English - Fortune Assists The Daring
> Web page http://www.infoforce-services.com
> Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. 2nd Vice president
> http://www.choroideremia.org
> 
0
Aaron
6/27/2006 12:52:06 PM
Is it possible to expose any of the java accessibility api information in an
applet context in firefox?

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: dev-accessibility-bounces@lists.mozilla.org
[mailto:dev-accessibility-bounces@lists.mozilla.org] On Behalf Of Aaron
Leventhal
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 8:52 AM
To: dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org
Subject: Re: Java support in Firefox

Java applet accessibility in Firefox is indeed weak.  Believe it or not,
you're the first person to ask about it. I agree it should be fixed,
although at the moment I'm not sure what we need to do, or who should do it.

As far as .ASP or other technologies related to serving web pages, that is
not a problem for Firefox. ASP is just used like PHP -- to dynamically serve
up different HTML depending on the current user's situation. Perhaps the ASP
pages you're visiting have some other issues.

- Aaron

Visually Insane Genetically Modified Organism wrote:
> I do not know if this is off topic for this list. If it is please 
> forgive me. I am not sure who to ask. I am finding Firefox's Java 
> support to be weak. Internet Explorer seems to work much better with 
> web pages that use alot of Java (ie web stock pages) and /or webpages 
> with a ".asp" extension. Is this a known problem and can be fixed?
> 
> ----
> Angus MacKinnon
> MacKinnon Crest Saying
> Latin -  Audentes Fortuna Juvat
> English - Fortune Assists The Daring
> Web page http://www.infoforce-services.com Choroideremia Research 
> Foundation Inc. 2nd Vice president http://www.choroideremia.org
> 
_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility

0
Sina
6/27/2006 12:57:32 PM
Among the possible "other issues:" many ASP pages rely on scripting.
Since Internet Explorer's scripting language (JScript) is not identical
to Mozilla's (JavaScript), and Microsoft's Web development tools (which
are used to develop many ASP pages) target IE but not necessarily other
browsers, it's quite possible that a higher percentage of ASP pages have
poor cross-browser support than other pages.  Even in cases where they
claim their tools produce pages that will work across browsers, they
often don't work well with Mozilla-based browsers.  I don't know whether
to attribute this to incompetence, disingenuousness ("hey, it works with
IE 5.5 and IE 6; that's cross-browser!"), or something else.

-----Original Message-----
From: dev-accessibility-bounces@lists.mozilla.org
[mailto:dev-accessibility-bounces@lists.mozilla.org] On Behalf Of Aaron
Leventhal
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 8:52 AM
To: dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org
Subject: Re: Java support in Firefox

Java applet accessibility in Firefox is indeed weak.  Believe it or not,

you're the first person to ask about it. I agree it should be fixed,=20
although at the moment I'm not sure what we need to do, or who should do
it.

As far as .ASP or other technologies related to serving web pages, that=20
is not a problem for Firefox. ASP is just used like PHP -- to=20
dynamically serve up different HTML depending on the current user's=20
situation. Perhaps the ASP pages you're visiting have some other issues.

- Aaron

Visually Insane Genetically Modified Organism wrote:
> I do not know if this is off topic for this list. If it is please=20
> forgive me. I am not sure who to ask. I am finding Firefox's Java=20
> support to be weak. Internet Explorer seems to work much better with
web=20
> pages that use alot of Java (ie web stock pages) and /or webpages with
a=20
> ".asp" extension. Is this a known problem and can be fixed?
>=20
> ----
> Angus MacKinnon
> MacKinnon Crest Saying
> Latin -  Audentes Fortuna Juvat
> English - Fortune Assists The Daring
> Web page http://www.infoforce-services.com
> Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. 2nd Vice president
> http://www.choroideremia.org
>=20
_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
0
Jesse
6/27/2006 1:09:53 PM
Hi all

Java applet accessibility has always had problems from the beginning. I
haven't looked into how accessible applets are lately but it now seems to be
less of an issue as developers have gone toward newer technologies such as
flash and Ajax. WebAIM did some research several years ago on java
accessibility and here is what we found:

1. If you followed standard markup (W3C HTML or XHTML), Java applets could
not be invoked properly across all browsers. IE and I think Opera had
different ways of calling an applet into play. IE seemed to like to run
applets by default using their version based off Java version 1.1 (which
used AWT gui and was completely inaccessible).

2. Some assistive technologies required the Java "access bridge". It has
been only a couple of years since the access bridge worked correctly, it was
awful to implement, and I notice on the java access list that users still
have many problems with it.

3. Once you got the planets in alignment then you have to deal with the very
different rendering quality of the different browsers.

There are still a few Java applets out there but I still would not use them
in public pages (except maybe for a game or to fulfill some very specialize
need). Institutions like our university use large Oracle java applications
but these applications are internal and a browser becomes a part of the
application. Applets become much more accessible when they are the only
thing on the page.

There is still the problem of figuring out how to write accessible java
applets. Most of the documentation is outdated on the Sun site and IBM site.
IBM has the best documentation but when I looked around earlier this week it
I noticed it was not getting a lot of attention. Sun offers a set of tools
for testing java accessibility but good luck finding it.

Ok I will end my eulogy for Java on the web. Basically I would vote Java
applet accessibility as a low priority for Mozilla and suggest developers
find other solutions.

Shane Anderson
WebAIM.org


On 6/27/06, Aaron Leventhal <aaronleventhal@moonset.net> wrote:
>
> Java applet accessibility in Firefox is indeed weak.  Believe it or not,
> you're the first person to ask about it. I agree it should be fixed,
> although at the moment I'm not sure what we need to do, or who should do
> it.
>
> As far as .ASP or other technologies related to serving web pages, that
> is not a problem for Firefox. ASP is just used like PHP -- to
> dynamically serve up different HTML depending on the current user's
> situation. Perhaps the ASP pages you're visiting have some other issues.
>
> - Aaron
>
> Visually Insane Genetically Modified Organism wrote:
> > I do not know if this is off topic for this list. If it is please
> > forgive me. I am not sure who to ask. I am finding Firefox's Java
> > support to be weak. Internet Explorer seems to work much better with web
> > pages that use alot of Java (ie web stock pages) and /or webpages with a
> > ".asp" extension. Is this a known problem and can be fixed?
> >
> > ----
> > Angus MacKinnon
> > MacKinnon Crest Saying
> > Latin -  Audentes Fortuna Juvat
> > English - Fortune Assists The Daring
> > Web page http://www.infoforce-services.com
> > Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. 2nd Vice president
> > http://www.choroideremia.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>
0
Shane
6/27/2006 5:31:56 PM
Back to the original post. It turns out that I should not assume that 
Firefox just doesn't make Java accessible. Do you have the Java Access 
Bridge installed, you'll need that?

As in IE, if the Java applet opens in a separate window, Java Swing 
applets should be accessible.

In Firefox we also expose the MSAA from plugins that support MSAA. I 
believe embedded Java applets are treated like a plugin in Firefox.

Has anyone actually tried any of this with the Java Access bridge and 
JAWS 7.1 and found that it works any better/worse than in IE?

- Aaron

Visually Insane Genetically Modified Organism wrote:
> I do not know if this is off topic for this list. If it is please 
> forgive me. I am not sure who to ask. I am finding Firefox's Java 
> support to be weak. Internet Explorer seems to work much better with web 
> pages that use alot of Java (ie web stock pages) and /or webpages with a 
> ".asp" extension. Is this a known problem and can be fixed?
> 
> ----
> Angus MacKinnon
> MacKinnon Crest Saying
> Latin -  Audentes Fortuna Juvat
> English - Fortune Assists The Daring
> Web page http://www.infoforce-services.com
> Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. 2nd Vice president
> http://www.choroideremia.org
> 
0
Aaron
6/29/2006 3:19:30 PM
Hi Aaron, Angus,

Aaron is correct - using the Java Access Bridge, especially if the 
applet is in a separate window, should work as well as any Java 
application that uses the Java Accessibility API.  Using the applet 
embedded in the web page still has the TAB issue which is being worked on.

Our recommendation for now is that the best way to deploy Java code over 
the web is via Java Web Start.  Using this technology you aren't limited 
the Applet (or JApplet) base class, but can be a full fledged 
application that is simply invoked via a link in a web page.  Java Web 
Start is supported on all desktop platforms.  In our CSUN 2005 
presentation "Topics in Java Accessibility" we talk about this and other 
techniques for delivering accessible Java via the web.  See the slides 
(in StarOffice .sxi format) at: 
http://www.sun.com/access/articles/csun05-pres/2pm-Java-Accessibility.sxi


Regards,

Peter Korn
Accessibility Architect,
Sun Microsystems, Inc.

> Back to the original post. It turns out that I should not assume that 
> Firefox just doesn't make Java accessible. Do you have the Java Access 
> Bridge installed, you'll need that?
>
> As in IE, if the Java applet opens in a separate window, Java Swing 
> applets should be accessible.
>
> In Firefox we also expose the MSAA from plugins that support MSAA. I 
> believe embedded Java applets are treated like a plugin in Firefox.
>
> Has anyone actually tried any of this with the Java Access bridge and 
> JAWS 7.1 and found that it works any better/worse than in IE?
>
> - Aaron
>
> Visually Insane Genetically Modified Organism wrote:
>> I do not know if this is off topic for this list. If it is please 
>> forgive me. I am not sure who to ask. I am finding Firefox's Java 
>> support to be weak. Internet Explorer seems to work much better with 
>> web pages that use alot of Java (ie web stock pages) and /or webpages 
>> with a ".asp" extension. Is this a known problem and can be fixed?
>>
>> ----
>> Angus MacKinnon
>> MacKinnon Crest Saying
>> Latin -  Audentes Fortuna Juvat
>> English - Fortune Assists The Daring
>> Web page http://www.infoforce-services.com
>> Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. 2nd Vice president
>> http://www.choroideremia.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility

0
Peter
6/29/2006 5:44:34 PM
Peter,

Are you aware if anyone has actually tried that with Firefox "just to be 
sure" that it works?

- Aaron



Peter Korn wrote:
> Hi Aaron, Angus,
>
> Aaron is correct - using the Java Access Bridge, especially if the 
> applet is in a separate window, should work as well as any Java 
> application that uses the Java Accessibility API.  Using the applet 
> embedded in the web page still has the TAB issue which is being worked 
> on.
>
> Our recommendation for now is that the best way to deploy Java code 
> over the web is via Java Web Start.  Using this technology you aren't 
> limited the Applet (or JApplet) base class, but can be a full fledged 
> application that is simply invoked via a link in a web page.  Java Web 
> Start is supported on all desktop platforms.  In our CSUN 2005 
> presentation "Topics in Java Accessibility" we talk about this and 
> other techniques for delivering accessible Java via the web.  See the 
> slides (in StarOffice .sxi format) at: 
> http://www.sun.com/access/articles/csun05-pres/2pm-Java-Accessibility.sxi
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter Korn
> Accessibility Architect,
> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>
>> Back to the original post. It turns out that I should not assume that 
>> Firefox just doesn't make Java accessible. Do you have the Java 
>> Access Bridge installed, you'll need that?
>>
>> As in IE, if the Java applet opens in a separate window, Java Swing 
>> applets should be accessible.
>>
>> In Firefox we also expose the MSAA from plugins that support MSAA. I 
>> believe embedded Java applets are treated like a plugin in Firefox.
>>
>> Has anyone actually tried any of this with the Java Access bridge and 
>> JAWS 7.1 and found that it works any better/worse than in IE?
>>
>> - Aaron
>>
>> Visually Insane Genetically Modified Organism wrote:
>>> I do not know if this is off topic for this list. If it is please 
>>> forgive me. I am not sure who to ask. I am finding Firefox's Java 
>>> support to be weak. Internet Explorer seems to work much better with 
>>> web pages that use alot of Java (ie web stock pages) and /or 
>>> webpages with a ".asp" extension. Is this a known problem and can be 
>>> fixed?
>>>
>>> ----
>>> Angus MacKinnon
>>> MacKinnon Crest Saying
>>> Latin -  Audentes Fortuna Juvat
>>> English - Fortune Assists The Daring
>>> Web page http://www.infoforce-services.com
>>> Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. 2nd Vice president
>>> http://www.choroideremia.org
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> dev-accessibility mailing list
>> dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org
>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>
>
0
Aaron
6/29/2006 6:07:59 PM
Note, I've seen a sample plugin in Firefox that supported MSAA and was 
accessible in Window-Eyes. The tabbing issue went away because 
Window-Eyes was managing focus. Obviously it would still be a problem 
for keyboard users and people with disabilities not using a screen reader.

- Aaron
0
Aaron
6/29/2006 6:11:01 PM
Reply: