Using decimal for entropy transfer between devices.

I combined and condensed my previous posts on this topic into=20
one.

Everyday hundreds of millions of people around the world enter=20
numbers -- 10-digit phone#, 16-digit cc#, 4-digit PINs, postal=20
codes, account#, dates, payments -- into their computers and=20
various mobile devices with little or no effort.

Virtually everyone is taught to read and write numbers from=20
preschool through college.  Unlike Base64 or hexadecimal,=20
decimal needs no explaining.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu-Arabic_numerals#Spread_of_the_Western_=
Arabic_variant

[quote]

Spread of the Western Arabic variant

The "Western Arabic" numerals as they were in common use in=20
Europe since the Baroque period have secondarily found worldwide=20
use together with the Latin alphabet, and even significantly=20
beyond the contemporary spread of the Latin alphabet, intruding=20
into the writing systems in regions where other variants of the=20
Hindu=E2=80=93Arabic numerals had been in use, but also in conjunction=20
with Chinese and Japanese writing (see Chinese numerals,=20
Japanese numerals).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EgyptphoneKeypad.jpg

[/quote]

So...

Split 96 bits of entropy into 3 32-bit unsigned integers or=20
split 128 bits of entropy into 4 32-bit unsigned integers.

Each integer would range from 0 to 4294967295.

Display all numbers on one screen or one at a time on successive=20
screens.

From: https://www.grc.com/passwords.htm

128 bits of entropy in 4 hexadecimal groups of 32 bits.

0B6D3294 BC6D55A0 D5059E84 68821973

What it looks like in decimal...

191705748

3161281952

3573915268

1753356659

....similar to 4 phone numbers.

The client would need to restrict input to 10 digits (no + - ,=20
..) and ensure that the entered number is < 2^32.  On Windows=20
this is simple to do, I don't know about other platforms.

--=20
Terry //
0
Terry
2/11/2014 11:05:07 PM
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Hi,

Am 12.02.2014 00:05, schrieb Terry L. Webb:
> Everyday hundreds of millions of people around the world enter=20
> numbers

Yeah, and also each day hundreds of millions of people around the world
enter characters ;). So that's not that great of an argument.

> Unlike Base64 or hexadecimal,
> decimal needs no explaining.

Ideally these character sets wouldn't need any explanation as you would
enter something that was previously generated for you. The conversion
itself is happening in the client and the unmindful user wouldn't even
notice what the alphabet looks like.

We were discussing "Crockford's Base32" [1] [2], which seems to be quite
right as it is case insensitive and "drops" the characters that are
known to be problematic with certain fonts.

Best regards,
Karol Babioch

[1]: https://www.grc.com/groups/sqrl:5083
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base32#Crockford.27s_Base32


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0
Karol
2/11/2014 11:45:10 PM
In grc.sqrl, Karol Babioch wrote ...

> Hi,
> 
> Am 12.02.2014 00:05, schrieb Terry L. Webb:
> > Everyday hundreds of millions of people around the world enter 
> > numbers

> Yeah, and also each day hundreds of millions of people around the world
> enter characters ;). So that's not that great of an argument.

That's certainly true.  But when you think about it numbers are 
much less complex and more universally understood than textual 
contexts and especially so for mixed-character gibberish.  I 
would venture to say that entering a phone number requires less 
thought and effort than entering a string of nonsense.  Also, 
consider that numbers cross most language boundaries.

> > Unlike Base64 or hexadecimal,
> > decimal needs no explaining.

> Ideally these character sets wouldn't need any explanation as you would
> enter something that was previously generated for you. The conversion
> itself is happening in the client and the unmindful user wouldn't even
> notice what the alphabet looks like.

FWIW, I used my mom as a reference, she wanted to know what that 
"garbage" was and wondered why anyone would want to waste time 
with something unreadable.  She had no questions about the 
numbers though.

> We were discussing "Crockford's Base32" [1] [2], which seems to be quite
> right as it is case insensitive and "drops" the characters that are
> known to be problematic with certain fonts.

FWIW, all lower-case (or all numbers) is easier to enter on 
mobile devices than mixed letters and numbers.

-- 
Terry //
0
Terry
2/12/2014 1:14:00 AM
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--lv7KdFsqnXLk4K32lmuQdwRALvsv33veP
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
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Hi,

Am 12.02.2014 02:14, schrieb Terry L. Webb:
> FWIW, I used my mom as a reference, she wanted to know what that
> "garbage" was and wondered why anyone would want to waste time
> with something unreadable.  She had no questions about the
> numbers though.

Ok, good to know. I was probably overestimating the average user ;).
Nevertheless all they would have to do is to enter a string of characters=
=2E

> FWIW, all lower-case (or all numbers) is easier to enter on
> mobile devices than mixed letters and numbers.

Exactly. This is the reason why the scheme is so appealing - at least to =
me.

Best regards,
Karol Babioch


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0
Karol
2/12/2014 1:26:41 AM
In grc.sqrl, Karol Babioch wrote ...

> I was probably overestimating the average user ;).

There is no such thing as an average user -- at least I have yet 
to meet one. ;)

-- 
Terry //
0
Terry
2/12/2014 3:14:03 AM
On 2/11/2014 8:14 PM, Terry L. Webb wrote:
> In grc.sqrl, Karol Babioch wrote ...
> 
>> Am 12.02.2014 00:05, schrieb Terry L. Webb:
>>> Everyday hundreds of millions of people around the world enter 
>>> numbers
> 
>> Yeah, and also each day hundreds of millions of people around the world
>> enter characters ;). So that's not that great of an argument.

I'm in the alphanumeric camp, as I don't think phone number are
particularly easy to use.  I would even claim that very few people *do*
use phone numbers, since we just let our contact lists manage those
strings.

To be more precise, I'm in the "word" camp, as I think humans are far
better at using words than they are word-sized numbers.  Here's a test
for you.  Give one person a 256-bit number to type and another a 256-bit
word list.  I'm betting the second person will enter the string more
quickly *and* accurately.

However, for the SQRL Access Code, which IMO should be *less than* 96
bits, I think that word-less alphanumeric strings broken into manageable
portions is perfectly fine.

> FWIW, I used my mom as a reference, she wanted to know what that 
> "garbage" was and wondered why anyone would want to waste time 
> with something unreadable.  She had no questions about the 
> numbers though.

An excellent reference and one that I can't argue with.  *I* don't like
long numbers except when expressed as a few significant digits raised to
a power of ten.  If we use numbers, I contend that they should be in
groups of 4 or no more than 5 before it becomes cumbersome to keep track
of the entire object in memory, but this is only my opinion.

The 10-digit numbers in your original post are *not* easily transferable
to my brain (despite the fact that it worked best with numbers when it
was young *g*).  My brain breaks them into 5-digit halves, which is
precisely what I would do when displaying them (6 is okay, too).  Since
this causes us to create many more segments, I favor a character set
with higher bits-per-character.

> FWIW, all lower-case (or all numbers) is easier to enter on 
> mobile devices than mixed letters and numbers.

True enough.  In such a case, I favor the lowercase option to reduce the
overall length, but if we settle upon a reasonable bit length, a numeric
string will be manageable as well.

Numbers are indeed more universal across languages and require less
complex keyboard layouts, so I do take your point.

-- 

 RobAllen
_____________________________________________________
0
RobAllen
2/12/2014 5:22:16 AM
In grc.sqrl, RobAllen wrote ...

> >> Am 12.02.2014 00:05, schrieb Terry L. Webb:
> >>> Everyday hundreds of millions of people around the world enter 
> >>> numbers

> I'm in the alphanumeric camp, as I don't think phone number are
> particularly easy to use.  I would even claim that very few people *do*
> use phone numbers, since we just let our contact lists manage those
> strings.

People routinely interact with phone numbers whether they enter 
them or not; the numbers are displayed on the screen when 
placing or receiving calls.  Most people have memorized the 
phone numbers of their family members, close friends and 
associates.

> To be more precise, I'm in the "word" camp, as I think humans are far
> better at using words than they are word-sized numbers.  Here's a test
> for you.  Give one person a 256-bit number to type and another a 256-bit
> word list.  I'm betting the second person will enter the string more
> quickly *and* accurately.

Numbers *are* words in the respective language.

4294967295

Four Two Nine Four Nine Six Seven Two Nine Five

....also...

Four billion, two hundred ninety four million, nine hundred 
sixty seven thousand, and two hundred ninety five.

> Here's a test for you.  Give one person a 256-bit number to type and
> another a 256-bit for you.  Give one person a 256-bit number to type
> and another a 256-bit word list.  I'm betting the second person will
> enter the string more quickly *and* accurately.

Give me hex and I'll win that race every time.  <g>

> However, for the SQRL Access Code, which IMO should be *less than* 96
> bits, I think that word-less alphanumeric strings broken into manageable
> portions is perfectly fine.

> > FWIW, I used my mom as a reference, she wanted to know what that 
> > "garbage" was and wondered why anyone would want to waste time 
> > with something unreadable.  She had no questions about the 
> > numbers though.

> An excellent reference and one that I can't argue with.  *I* don't like
> long numbers except when expressed as a few significant digits raised to
> a power of ten.  If we use numbers, I contend that they should be in
> groups of 4 or no more than 5 before it becomes cumbersome to keep track
> of the entire object in memory, but this is only my opinion.

> The 10-digit numbers in your original post are *not* easily transferable
> to my brain (despite the fact that it worked best with numbers when it
> was young *g*).  My brain breaks them into 5-digit halves, which is
> precisely what I would do when displaying them (6 is okay, too).  Since
> this causes us to create many more segments, I favor a character set
> with higher bits-per-character.

> > FWIW, all lower-case (or all numbers) is easier to enter on 
> > mobile devices than mixed letters and numbers.

> True enough.  In such a case, I favor the lowercase option to reduce the
> overall length, but if we settle upon a reasonable bit length, a numeric
> string will be manageable as well.

> Numbers are indeed more universal across languages and require less
> complex keyboard layouts, so I do take your point.

Excellent observations, Rob.

It seems to boil down to the end user's familiarity and comfort.

Maybe the best solution would be to let the user choose their 
preferred presentation: Base64, Base58, Base32, all lower-case, 
hexadecimal, decimal; grouped by n characters.

-- 
Terry //
0
Terry
2/12/2014 7:54:46 PM
In grc.sqrl, RobAllen wrote ...

> The 10-digit numbers in your original post are *not* easily transferable
> to my brain (despite the fact that it worked best with numbers when it
> was young *g*).  My brain breaks them into 5-digit halves, which is
> precisely what I would do when displaying them (6 is okay, too).  Since
> this causes us to create many more segments, I favor a character set
> with higher bits-per-character.

More thoughts after my previous reply...

From my original post:

> From: https://www.grc.com/passwords.htm
> 
> 128 bits of entropy in 4 hexadecimal groups of 32 bits.
> 
> 0B6D3294 BC6D55A0 D5059E84 68821973
> 
> What it looks like in decimal...
> 
> 191705748
> 
> 3161281952
> 
> 3573915268
> 
> 1753356659
> 
> ...similar to 4 phone numbers.

In order for the decimal number to map directly into a 32-bit 
unsigned integer it must range from 0 to 2^32 - 1.

Using the space character for the thousands separator makes it 
more readable.

191 705 748

3 161 281 952

3 573 915 268

1 753 356 659

While high bits-per-character is desirable, I think that user 
familiarity and comfort are more important.

-- 
Terry //
0
Terry
2/12/2014 8:48:32 PM
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Hi,

Am 12.02.2014 20:54, schrieb Terry L. Webb:
> Maybe the best solution would be to let the user choose their=20
> preferred presentation: Base64, Base58, Base32, all lower-case,=20
> hexadecimal, decimal; grouped by n characters.

I don't think that this is a good idea at all. The average Joe doesn't
even know what this is referring to, so we shouldn't leave it to them.

Additionally I really do think that after some further discussion about
the pros and cons of various schemes we will arrive at a suitable
solution for everyone, which will make this aspect of SQRL the least to
worry about.

Don't forget that we are discussing something here, which isn't of much
interest to the rest of the world. Outside our box it is not unheard of
that passwords are written down on post-its under the keyboard and/or
passed verbally during meetings in front of a lot of unauthorized people =
=2E..

Best regards,
Karol Babioch


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0
Karol
2/12/2014 8:54:18 PM
Reply:

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Hi I am very new to asp and have a book im trying to learn from but am having trouble understanding this: how do you know what letter should be used when entering the inputs for decimals integers etc heres an example from the book.Dim P As Decimal = LoanAmount.Text Dim r As Decimal = Rate.Text / 100 Dim t As Decimal = MortgageLength.Text I dont understand why in this case the letters P, R and T have been used.  any help would be great If you're example was taken directly from a book, then i'm afraid you might want to start looking for a different book. Variable na...

query which reports the devices used by the database, and the amount of space on each device in 12.5 Sybase version.
Hi, I am trying to write a query which reports the devices used by the database, and the amount of space on each device (for 12.5 sybase version). I found 1. select sysdevices.name, sysusages.size / 512 from sysdevices, sysdatabases, sysusages where sysdatabases.name = sybsystemprocs" and sysdatabases.dbid = sysusages.dbid and sysdevices.low <= sysusages.size + vstart and sysdevices.high >= sysusages.size + vstart -1 and 2. select sysdevices.name as DevName, sysdatabases.name as BName, sysusages.size/512 as Size from sysdatabases, sysusages, sysdevices where ...

Web resources about - Using decimal for entropy transfer between devices. - grc.sqrl

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