Character set -- Impossible to please everyone !.

It is not easy to please everyone, probably Impossible:

From SG: http://www.GRC.com/groups/sqrl:5004
   Oo0  O
   1Il  L
From AlanD: http://www.GRC.com/groups/sqrl:5005
   Oo0  O
   qg   Q
   QO   O
   OC   O
   OD   O
   !1l  L
From FireXware: http://www.grc.com/groups/sqrl:5009
   Kk   K
From Terry L.  Webb: http://www.GRC.com/groups/sqrl:5015
   B8      8
   Cc      C
   Ff      F
   Iij1!   I
   Jj      J
   Kk      K
   OoQ0   O
   Pp     P
   Ss5    5
   Tt     T
   UuVv   U
   Ww     W
   Xx     X
   Zz     Z
   gq     Q
   mn     M
From postie: http://www.GRC.com/groups/sqrl:5034
   Avoid <>+$?@!#

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
There are two strings: the input (what the user write) and the output (what 
will be stored and compared to). The two strings will not be exactly equal, 
some processing is needed to ensure ease of use.

The final "stored" string should be lowercase, any case will be accepted 
and, additionally, I'll write resulting characters in this post in uppercase 
as they are usually less prone to be confused.

One basic point and goal is to allow the user to type whatever he "believe" 
or "read" as the character at each position, the system should help him/her 
to reach the "correct" character anyway. Thus, some characters in the input 
string should be "allowed" but transformed to their equivalents, like a user 
typing a "K" where there should be a "k", or viceversa. With such goal, we 
need a procedure as follows:

1.- All ASCII characters [!|.,+()0-9a-zA-Z] (7+10+52=69) will be accepted
    as input (as written by the user), anything else will be warned as
    "error".
3.- All characters will be translated to their equivalent by this rules:
    a.- Just stating that only one case will be stored, that is, whichever
        case a symbol is written on, it will be converted to lowercase
        (at the end), most of the requested confusions are removed
        (like K and k).                      (reduce set in 26 chars)
    b.- Making 0OoQq   being accepted as 0.  (reduce set in  2 chars)
    c.- Making 1IiJjLl!| being accepted as 1. (reduce set in  5 chars)
    d.- Making VvUu into U.                   (reduce set in  1 chars)
    e.- Making Ss5  into 5.                   (reduce set in  1 chars)
    f.- Making gq   into q.                   (reduce set in  1 chars)
    g.- Making OCD  into O.                   (reduce set in  2 chars)
    h.- Making B8   into 8.                   (reduce set in  1 chars)
    i.- Making mn   into M.                   (reduce set in  1 chars)
    j.- Erase +(.,) (for telephone numbers).   (reduce set in  5 chars)

The Rejected Input character set is:
         "#$%&'*-/{}~:;<=>?@[\]^_`
The Allowed case-insensitive Input character set is:
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ0123456789abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz!()+,.|

And the resulting case-insensitive input character set is:
          ABCDE FGHIJ KLMNO PQRST UVWXY Z0123 45678 9!()+ ,.|    69-26=43
And after all the other rules:
          A   E F H   K M   P R T U WXY Z0123 45678 9            43-12-7=24


That leaves only this short list of letters:
AEFHK MPRTU WXYZ0 12345 6789                       43-12-7=24

Wow, Base24 looks like toooo low, back to the drawing table !!!


-- 
Mark Cross @ 02/13/2014 12:39 a.m.
This website may not be idiot proof, but at least it's dimwit resistant.
0
Mark
2/13/2014 4:47:08 AM
grc.sqrl 459 articles. 0 followers. Follow

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[for the unabridged version, see Mark Cross's post above]

That's a good instructive synthesis, Mark.  Thanks.

I am liking base10 the more it sits with me.
So simple, so clear, so easily entered...

4649 7294 0572 6382 1739 6453    = 79.726 bits (10^24)


I started off assuming (in techie computer science mode) that 
the "ideal" would be the absolute highest possible entropy per 
character, yielding the largest total entropy with the lowest 
character count.

But now I so much better understand that a high entropy-per-
character also conveys a USABILITY COST to the person seeing, 
recording, and later reentering the code.

When you factor in the fact that adding a single bit of entropy 
per character doubles the character set size, thus making that 
additional entropy expensive in all kinds of ways... including 
the very real problem of visual confusion...

My thinking has really come around to using more simple 
characters rather than fewer complex ones.

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.               Working on moving the SQRL project forward.
0
Steve
2/13/2014 5:11:52 PM
On 2014-02-13 9:11, Steve Gibson wrote:
> [for the unabridged version, see Mark Cross's post above]
>
> That's a good instructive synthesis, Mark.  Thanks.
>
> I am liking base10 the more it sits with me.
> So simple, so clear, so easily entered...
>
> 4649 7294 0572 6382 1739 6453    = 79.726 bits (10^24)

The other benefit is that by restricting all inputs to a single "type" 
of character, be it letters or numbers, potential confusion is vastly 
reduced. Even in the worst font possible, users are quite unlikely to 
suspect that "0572" starts with an upper-case 'o' rather than a zero, 
and are also unlikely to think that the 'o' in "aeiou" is a zero.

Regards,
Sam

0
Sam
2/13/2014 11:36:38 PM
In grc.sqrl, Steve Gibson wrote ...

4649 7294 0572 6382 1739 6453    = 79.726 bits (10^24)
46497 29405 72638 21739 64530    = 83.048 bits (10^25)

I think that groups of 4 are easier to read, but I found it 
interesting that 5 groups of 5 fit in the same 29-character 
space and adds more bits.

-- 
Terry //
0
Terry
2/14/2014 12:05:16 AM
[for the unabridged version, see Sam Schinke's post above]

> > That's a good instructive synthesis, Mark.  Thanks.
> >
> > I am liking base10 the more it sits with me.
> > So simple, so clear, so easily entered...
> >
> > 4649 7294 0572 6382 1739 6453    = 79.726 bits (10^24)
> 
> The other benefit is that by restricting all inputs to a single
> "type" of character, be it letters or numbers, potential confusion
> is vastly reduced. Even in the worst font possible, users are quite
> unlikely to suspect that "0572" starts with an upper-case 'o'
> rather than a zero, and are also unlikely to think that the 'o'
> in "aeiou" is a zero.

Right, Sam.  And while we're on the subject, neither will the 
software be confused by it.

In a situation where we're used up all available symbols, 
rendering all valid, the input parser must accept anything 
entered as being potentially legal.

But when we've restricted the character set to just a small 
subset of what's possible, the input handler can grunt at the 
user and simply refuse to accept any of the MAJORITY of symbols 
that are known a priori to be invalid.

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.               Working on moving the SQRL project forward.
0
Steve
2/14/2014 1:05:01 AM
I debating whether it made sense to drop out of "lurk" mode, as it seems 
like from other posts all over this group, that this topic is(has) 
rapidly converging(-ed) on consensus. But reading through many of the 
posts around this topic, a notion struck me:

numbers stations

All those spooky HF stations that presumably traffic in secret intel or 
mission orders, the spooks behind 'em have already solved this.

If you've never heard them (I recommend the Conet Project recordings), 
these stations all transmit their codes, by voice, either as numbers or 
letters (in a phonetic alphabet, and never both letters /and/ numbers 
mixed in the same group; the sample recordings I've heard generally 
stick with just one type for an entire message) in groups of four or 
five. A requirement would thus seem to be copying accuracy by a human 
transcriber.

Any modern machine-intended transmissions would make more sense as a 
purely digital mode, so the fact that such transmissions are still 
occasionally heard suggests that there are still times when operating 
conditions or requirements are more austere.

So, for any time of user-friendly passcode entry, especially one that 
may be transcribed so as not to have to be committed to memory, 
small-ish groupings of either all letters or all numbers seem to be a 
good call. Seeing as the spies do it that way, perhaps they /know/ 
something...
0
Andrew
2/20/2014 6:40:08 AM
Andrew Skretvedt was heard to say :

[...]
> So, for any time of user-friendly passcode entry, especially one that
> may be transcribed so as not to have to be committed to memory,
> small-ish groupings of either all letters or all numbers seem to be a
> good call. Seeing as the spies do it that way, perhaps they /know/
> something...

Have you read http://www.grc.com/groups/sqrl:5178

And the closing post: http://www.GRC.com/groups/sqrl:5179

-- 
Mark Cross @ 02/21/2014 12:06 a.m.
If everything seems to be going right, you obviously don't know what the 
hell is going on.

0
Mark
2/21/2014 4:08:44 AM
Reply:

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