EPIC Obtains FBI Reports to Congress on Carnivore

Through the Freedom of Information Act, EPIC has obtained FBI reports
to Congress stating that the law enforcement agency did not use its
DCS 1000 Internet monitoring system -- formerly known as Carnivore --
during fiscal years 2002 and 2003.  The reports were prepared in
accordance with the 21st Century Department of Justice Appropriations
Act, which requires the FBI to report annually to Congress on its use
of DCS 1000 or later versions of the program.

The existence of Carnivore first came to light in 2000.  Reports
indicated that the system could be installed at the facilities of an
internet service provider and monitor all traffic moving through the
ISP.  The FBI argued that Carnivore merely "filtered" data traffic and
ensured that investigators collected only those "packets" they were
lawfully authorized to obtain.  However, because the details of the
system remain unknown, the public has long been left to trust the
FBI's characterization of the system and -- more significantly -- the
FBI's compliance with legal requirements.

The first report obtained by EPIC states that the FBI used
[I]commercially available software[/I] -- rather than its own DCS 1000 
system
-- to conduct court-ordered electronic surveillance five times in
fiscal year 2002.  According to the FY2003 report, the FBI used
[I]commercially available software[/I] to conduct court-ordered surveillance
eight times.  The FBI reported that it did not use DCS 1000 to conduct
surveillance during either fiscal year.

The reports suggest that the FBI's need for Carnivore-like Internet
surveillance tools is decreasing, [B]likely because ISPs are providing
Internet traffic information directly to the government[/B].

FBI reports to Congress on use of DCS 1000:

      [url]http://www.epic.org/privacy/carnivore/2002_report.pdf[/url]

      [url]http://www.epic.org/privacy/carnivore/2003_report.pdf[/url]

For more information about Carnivore, see EPIC's Carnivore FOIA
Litigation Page:

      [url]http://www.epic.org/privacy/carnivore[/url]

To see more documents about Carnivore, see EPIC's Carnivore FOIA
Documents Page:

      [url]http://www.epic.org/privacy/carnivore/foia_documents.html[/url]

(Bolding and italics for emphasis mine - Pete)

Just goes to show that a really GOOD anti-keylogger program can pay off in 
more ways than one! (I use SpyCop). Pete 
0
Steven
1/14/2005 3:31:23 AM
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"Steven Peter Yevchak" <spy1@comporium.net> wrote in message
news:cs7eec$m8d$1@news.grc.com...
> Through the Freedom of Information Act, EPIC has obtained FBI reports
> to Congress stating that the law enforcement agency did not use its
> DCS 1000 Internet monitoring system -- formerly known as Carnivore --
> during fiscal years 2002 and 2003.  The reports were prepared in
> accordance with the 21st Century Department of Justice Appropriations
> Act, which requires the FBI to report annually to Congress on its use
> of DCS 1000 or later versions of the program.

If you thought that article was interesting, try reading the one further on
in the newsletter regarding the Worthington murder case in Truro, MA!

"Police maintain that Truro's male residents are under no legal
obligation to provide the police with a sample of their DNA.  However,
Cape and Islands District Attorney Michael O'Keefe says that law
enforcement will be forced to look at those who refuse to submit to a
saliva swab."

This is one of the most outrageous and disturbing items I've read in a
while. I think it pretty lame for the Truro PD to even ask for residents to
do this, but can understand they're desperate to solve this murder (we just
had a similiar one where I live). But for the DA to make such a blatantly
unconstituitional veiled threat ought to have him impeached! Sure makes me
glad I don't live in the commonwealth anymore. ;-)

Alinator
0
Alinator
1/14/2005 7:24:38 PM
Wandering aimlessly about grc.privacy, I heard Alinator say:

[...]
> If you thought that article was interesting, try reading the one further on
> in the newsletter regarding the Worthington murder case in Truro, MA!
> 
> "Police maintain that Truro's male residents are under no legal
> obligation to provide the police with a sample of their DNA.  However,
> Cape and Islands District Attorney Michael O'Keefe says that law
> enforcement will be forced to look at those who refuse to submit to a
> saliva swab."
> 
> This is one of the most outrageous and disturbing items I've read in a
> while. I think it pretty lame for the Truro PD to even ask for residents to
> do this, but can understand they're desperate to solve this murder (we just
> had a similiar one where I live). But for the DA to make such a blatantly
> unconstituitional veiled threat ought to have him impeached! Sure makes me
> glad I don't live in the commonwealth anymore. ;-)

To my mind, the DA is simply being honest, although he might have done
better by keeping it to himself. Of course they're going to look
closer at someone that refuses, just as a jury will automatically
assign a measure of guilt to a witness that refuses to answer on fifth
amendment grounds.  

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://client.grc.com/news.exe?cmd=article&group=grc.techtalk&item=124863
0
Dutch
1/14/2005 7:38:23 PM
"Dutch" <buryit@blackholespam.net> wrote in message
news:1pj8o35tooy1p$.xyz@news.12078.net...
> Wandering aimlessly about grc.privacy, I heard Alinator say:
>
<snip>
>
> To my mind, the DA is simply being honest, although he might have done
> better by keeping it to himself. Of course they're going to look
> closer at someone that refuses, just as a jury will automatically
> assign a measure of guilt to a witness that refuses to answer on fifth
> amendment grounds.
>
> --
> Dutch
>
> GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
> http://client.grc.com/news.exe?cmd=article&group=grc.techtalk&item=124863

I didn't include the paragraph before where the police said they were
looking to match the DNA of an unidentified man who had sex "shortly" before
the murder, and may or may not have had anything to do with it.

Logic would seem to indicate that in the course of the investigation they
have already ruled out Ms. Worthington known romantic partners as the source
of the DNA, suspect it 1.) in fact belongs to the killer and 2.) suspect he
is a local resident, but don't have any other solid enough evidence to go to
a court and get warrants to obtain the DNA sample.

The issue is not about the DA's personal feelings or opinions. The issue is
whether a communities chief law enforcement officer has the right to coerce
citizens to abrogate their constitutional rights under threat of reprisal.
Obviously any resonably competent defense attorney would have a field day
with evidence obtain in such a manner.

Another issue is citizems are being asked to submit their *most* private of
personal info under questionable legal circumstances, with only the
flimsiest assures it will be destroyed if turns out "your not the one".

Alinator
0
Alinator
1/14/2005 8:12:54 PM
Steven Peter Yevchak wrote:

>       [url]http://www.epic.org/privacy/carnivore/2002_report.pdf[/url]
> 
>       [url]http://www.epic.org/privacy/carnivore/2003_report.pdf[/url]
> 
> For more information about Carnivore, see EPIC's Carnivore FOIA
> Litigation Page:
> 
>       [url]http://www.epic.org/privacy/carnivore[/url]
> 
> To see more documents about Carnivore, see EPIC's Carnivore FOIA
> Documents Page:
> 
>       [url]http://www.epic.org/privacy/carnivore/foia_documents.html[/url]

Please do not put [url] and [/url] on your links. That screws up most 
news readers.
0
Kerry
1/14/2005 8:33:01 PM
Alinator wrote:

> I didn't include the paragraph before where the police said they were
> looking to match the DNA of an unidentified man who had sex "shortly" before
> the murder, and may or may not have had anything to do with it.
> 
> Logic would seem to indicate that in the course of the investigation they
> have already ruled out Ms. Worthington known romantic partners as the source
> of the DNA, suspect it 1.) in fact belongs to the killer and 2.) suspect he
> is a local resident, but don't have any other solid enough evidence to go to
> a court and get warrants to obtain the DNA sample.
> 
> The issue is not about the DA's personal feelings or opinions. The issue is
> whether a communities chief law enforcement officer has the right to coerce
> citizens to abrogate their constitutional rights under threat of reprisal.
> Obviously any resonably competent defense attorney would have a field day
> with evidence obtain in such a manner.
> 
> Another issue is citizems are being asked to submit their *most* private of
> personal info under questionable legal circumstances, with only the
> flimsiest assures it will be destroyed if turns out "your not the one".

This violates our freedom to not be subjected to unreasonable search or 
seizure. If it's alright for the Truro PD to get genetic samples from 
all male residents, how is that different than subjecting every male in 
the entire country to the same screening? It's the same thing except for 
scale.

Why don't we just search *everybody's* houses for drugs? That would 
pretty much put an end to illegal drug use, right?
0
Kerry
1/14/2005 8:49:50 PM
Wandering aimlessly about grc.privacy, I heard Alinator say:

> "Dutch" <buryit@blackholespam.net> wrote in message
> news:1pj8o35tooy1p$.xyz@news.12078.net...
>> Wandering aimlessly about grc.privacy, I heard Alinator say:
>>
> <snip>
>>
>> To my mind, the DA is simply being honest, although he might have done
>> better by keeping it to himself. Of course they're going to look
>> closer at someone that refuses, just as a jury will automatically
>> assign a measure of guilt to a witness that refuses to answer on fifth
>> amendment grounds.
< > 
> I didn't include the paragraph before where the police said they were
> looking to match the DNA of an unidentified man who had sex "shortly" before
> the murder, and may or may not have had anything to do with it.
> 
> Logic would seem to indicate that in the course of the investigation they
> have already ruled out Ms. Worthington known romantic partners as the source
> of the DNA, suspect it 1.) in fact belongs to the killer and 2.) suspect he
> is a local resident, but don't have any other solid enough evidence to go to
> a court and get warrants to obtain the DNA sample.

I'd say that's logical...
 
> The issue is not about the DA's personal feelings or opinions. The issue is
> whether a communities chief law enforcement officer has the right to coerce
> citizens to abrogate their constitutional rights under threat of reprisal.
> Obviously any resonably competent defense attorney would have a field day
> with evidence obtain in such a manner.
> 
> Another issue is citizems are being asked to submit their *most* private of
> personal info under questionable legal circumstances, with only the
> flimsiest assures it will be destroyed if turns out "your not the one".

I agree it's a fine line they're walking. I'm not sure that asking for
voluntary DNA samples is all that different though, than the common
practice of asking for fingerprints for purposes of elimination, where
again, refusal typically raises a LEO's eyebrows a bit... 

Mind you, I'm not saying what they're doing is right, just that the
DA's statement in and of itself, just reflects what most people would
expect anyway, when someone refuses to provide evidence.

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://client.grc.com/news.exe?cmd=article&group=grc.techtalk&item=124863
0
Dutch
1/14/2005 9:24:47 PM
Wandering aimlessly about grc.privacy, I heard Kerry say:

> Alinator wrote:
> 
[...]
>> Another issue is citizems are being asked to submit their *most* private of
>> personal info under questionable legal circumstances, with only the
>> flimsiest assures it will be destroyed if turns out "your not the one".
> 
> This violates our freedom to not be subjected to unreasonable search or 
> seizure. If it's alright for the Truro PD to get genetic samples from 
> all male residents, how is that different than subjecting every male in 
> the entire country to the same screening? It's the same thing except for 
> scale.

Except that the police have already acknowledged that it's not
alright: "Police maintain that Truro's male residents are under no
legal obligation to provide the police with a sample of their DNA."

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://client.grc.com/news.exe?cmd=article&group=grc.techtalk&item=124863
0
Dutch
1/14/2005 9:27:38 PM
In article <cs96bk$2629$1@news.grc.com>, Alinator writes
>
>"Steven Peter Yevchak" <spy1@comporium.net> wrote in message
>news:cs7eec$m8d$1@news.grc.com...
>> Through the Freedom of Information Act, EPIC has obtained FBI reports
>> to Congress stating that the law enforcement agency did not use its
>> DCS 1000 Internet monitoring system -- formerly known as Carnivore --
>> during fiscal years 2002 and 2003.  The reports were prepared in
>> accordance with the 21st Century Department of Justice Appropriations
>> Act, which requires the FBI to report annually to Congress on its use
>> of DCS 1000 or later versions of the program.

Which is interesting and related to computers. :-)

>If you thought that article was interesting, try reading the one further on
>in the newsletter regarding the Worthington murder case in Truro, MA!

Which is also interesting, but has no relation to computers and personal 
privacy on them. So IMO off topic for the group, and likely to stray far 
into areas that Steve has said he preferred not to have on the server. 
[Of course this post will likely cause a bit of straying too.]

http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#groups
[..]
-- 
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets:
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm
 From invalid, Reply To works.
Kevin A.
0
Kevin
1/15/2005 1:27:39 AM
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:33:01, Kerry wrote:

>Please do not put [url] and [/url] on your links. That screws up most 
>news readers.

Not 'most' newsreaders.  Just one, it seems.  Not mine as it happens.

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.
0
Jim
1/15/2005 1:50:17 AM
In grc.privacy Jim Crowther wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:33:01, Kerry wrote:
> 
>>Please do not put [url] and [/url] on your links. That screws up
>>most news readers.
> 
> Not 'most' newsreaders.  Just one, it seems.  Not mine as it
> happens. 

2
0
Mark
1/15/2005 2:37:11 AM
Mark V wrote:
> In grc.privacy Jim Crowther wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:33:01, Kerry wrote:
>>
>>>Please do not put [url] and [/url] on your links. That screws up
>>>most news readers.
>>
>> Not 'most' newsreaders.  Just one, it seems.  Not mine as it
>> happens.
>
> 2

well, it certainly "screwed up"  OE...or at least my OE.

-- 
-m 
0
monsignor
1/15/2005 2:49:53 AM
On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 02:37:11, Mark V wrote:

>In grc.privacy Jim Crowther wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:33:01, Kerry wrote:
>>
>>>Please do not put [url] and [/url] on your links. That screws up
>>>most news readers.
>>
>> Not 'most' newsreaders.  Just one, it seems.  Not mine as it
>> happens.
>
>2

Xnews isn't RFC compliant, sadly, and although very useful in some 
circumstances, fails dismally (as tried here) as a main-stream 
newsreader, like not being immediately useful offline.  Lots of details 
missed entirely.  Yes, I know TP misses a few as well.  Enough of that, 
perhaps it's time I went to bed... <g>

Extremely OT, so FU to poster. :)

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.
0
Jim
1/15/2005 2:53:48 AM
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 20:49:53, monsignor wrote:

>Mark V wrote:
>> In grc.privacy Jim Crowther wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:33:01, Kerry wrote:
>>>
>>>>Please do not put [url] and [/url] on your links. That screws up
>>>>most news readers.
>>>
>>> Not 'most' newsreaders.  Just one, it seems.  Not mine as it
>>> happens.
>>
>> 2
>
>well, it certainly "screwed up"  OE...or at least my OE.

I never considered OE as being a newsreader, sorry. :(

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.
0
Jim
1/15/2005 2:56:58 AM
Kevin
    I'd have to disagree. If being keylogged by ANYONE doesn't strike to the 
very heart of everyone's "Privacy", then I don't know what does.
    It relates DIRECTLY to computers (since that's what's being key-logged, 
for goodness sake) - and I'm sure a lot of people DO find this kind of thing 
interesting.
    It wasn't even a "political" post (notice I didn't rant and rave about 
anything, I merely presented the news item).
    A similar one would have been this: 
http://www.eff.org/news/archives/2005_01.php#002212 - which is ALSO 
interesting and DIRECTLY related to computer use AND security AND privacy.
    I DO apologize for messing up anyone's newsreader (I didn't know the 
links in the newsletter were going to show up like that). That certainly 
wasn't my intent. Pete


"Kevin A." <klex49@blackhole.2kevin.net> wrote in message 
news:3h2rt3KLGH6BFAre@blackhole.2kevin.net...
> Which is interesting and related to computers. :-)
>
> Kevin A. 
0
Steven
1/15/2005 3:49:25 PM
"Kevin A." <klex49@blackhole.2kevin.net> wrote in message
news:3h2rt3KLGH6BFAre@blackhole.2kevin.net...
> In article <cs96bk$2629$1@news.grc.com>, Alinator writes
> >
<snip>
>
> Which is also interesting, but has no relation to computers and personal
> privacy on them. So IMO off topic for the group, and likely to stray far
> into areas that Steve has said he preferred not to have on the server.
> [Of course this post will likely cause a bit of straying too.]
>
> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#groups
> [..]
> --
> GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets:
> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm
>  From invalid, Reply To works.
> Kevin A.

Possibly, but where do you think DNA records end up? The EPIC article went
on to the possibility since there were no clearly spelling proceedures
for handling the destruction of the "needless taken" samples, they may end
up working their way into the, and now with new arrangements in
place international databases. Exactly, what this group is about.

Alinator
0
Alinator
1/15/2005 4:26:07 PM
> Possibly, but where do you think DNA records end up? The EPIC article went
> on to the possibility since there were no clearly spelling proceedures
> for handling the destruction of the "needless taken" samples, they may end
> up working their way into the, and now with new arrangements in
> place international databases. Exactly, what this group is about.
>
> Alinator

That should be: "clearly spelled out proceedures", and "way into national"

Sheesh, my grammar and spelling has been TERRIBLE lately! :-)
0
Alinator
1/15/2005 4:33:15 PM
"Steven Peter Yevchak" <spy1@comporium.net> wrote in message
news:csbe29$12ps$1@news.grc.com...
<snip>
>
Steven,

Kevin was responding to my reply to your post. Your's most certainly applied
with no grayness! ;-)

Alinator
0
Alinator
1/15/2005 4:48:18 PM
In grc.privacy Jim Crowther wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 20:49:53, monsignor wrote:
> 
>>Mark V wrote:
>>> In grc.privacy Jim Crowther wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:33:01, Kerry wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Please do not put [url] and [/url] on your links. That screws 
>>>>>up most news readers.
>>>>
>>>> Not 'most' newsreaders.  Just one, it seems.  Not mine as it
>>>> happens.
>>>
>>> 2
>>
>>well, it certainly "screwed up"  OE...or at least my OE.
> 
> I never considered OE as being a newsreader, sorry. :(

And from other post:
 "Xnews isn't RFC compliant,  ..."

You don't control what others use to read/post here.  The,  
admittedly Off-Topic for thread issue, is original poster's style.

From Steve's    fewest_details.txt (DEC 2004)

 Microsoft	242165
 Mozilla	54745
 MicroPlanet	44115
 Xnews	28927
 Forte	28784
 Turnpike	10253
 40tude	8726
 ...

If the poster "Steven ..." will simply not abut text to URL 
strings, all will be best served and appreciative.

(my last words here)
0
Mark
1/15/2005 5:37:14 PM
"Dutch" <buryit@blackholespam.net> wrote in message
news:1mdgpw8pda5q$.xyz@news.12078.net...
> Wandering aimlessly about grc.privacy, I heard Alinator say:
>
> > "Dutch" <buryit@blackholespam.net> wrote in message
> > news:1pj8o35tooy1p$.xyz@news.12078.net...
> >> Wandering aimlessly about grc.privacy, I heard Alinator say:

<snip>

> I agree it's a fine line they're walking. I'm not sure that asking for
> voluntary DNA samples is all that different though, than the common
> practice of asking for fingerprints for purposes of elimination, where
> again, refusal typically raises a LEO's eyebrows a bit...
>
> Mind you, I'm not saying what they're doing is right, just that the
> DA's statement in and of itself, just reflects what most people would
> expect anyway, when someone refuses to provide evidence.
>
> --
> Dutch
>
> GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
> http://client.grc.com/news.exe?cmd=article&group=grc.techtalk&item=124863

Absolutely, however LEO's get paid to be suspicious <g>, and with regards to
your fingerprinting example, this is usually done for persons with a
reasonable expectation of having been *at* the crime scene, not a "shotgun"
approach like in this case.

I think EPIC's real point here is it is better to have this kind of privacy
concern dealt with while it is still a "corporeal" matter, rather than after
the genie has been let out of the bottle and potential damage done so to
speak.

Alinator
0
Alinator
1/15/2005 7:18:49 PM
Wandering aimlessly about grc.privacy, I heard Alinator say:

> "Dutch" <buryit@blackholespam.net> wrote in message
> news:1mdgpw8pda5q$.xyz@news.12078.net...
>> Wandering aimlessly about grc.privacy, I heard Alinator say:
>>
>>> "Dutch" <buryit@blackholespam.net> wrote in message
>>> news:1pj8o35tooy1p$.xyz@news.12078.net...
[...]
>> Mind you, I'm not saying what they're doing is right, just that the
>> DA's statement in and of itself, just reflects what most people would
>> expect anyway, when someone refuses to provide evidence.
> 
> Absolutely, however LEO's get paid to be suspicious <g>, and with regards to
> your fingerprinting example, this is usually done for persons with a
> reasonable expectation of having been *at* the crime scene, not a "shotgun"
> approach like in this case.

The scope of the elimination is broader, but IMHO, the concept is the
same.

> I think EPIC's real point here is it is better to have this kind of privacy
> concern dealt with while it is still a "corporeal" matter, rather than after
> the genie has been let out of the bottle and potential damage done so to
> speak.

True enough, and I don't think we're in any significant disagreement, so
I'll drop it here...

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://client.grc.com/news.exe?cmd=article&group=grc.techtalk&item=124863
0
Dutch
1/15/2005 7:43:13 PM
In article <csbe29$12ps$1@news.grc.com>, Steven Peter Yevchak writes
>Kevin
>    I'd have to disagree. If being keylogged by ANYONE doesn't strike to the
>very heart of everyone's "Privacy", then I don't know what does.

Agreed. See the part of my post below that you quoted. :-)

>    It relates DIRECTLY to computers (since that's what's being key-logged,
>for goodness sake) - and I'm sure a lot of people DO find this kind of thing
>interesting.
>    It wasn't even a "political" post (notice I didn't rant and rave about
>anything, I merely presented the news item).

Again, agreed. And I found it very interesting after all the hoopla 
about Carnivore when it was first rumored to exist. :-)

>    I DO apologize for messing up anyone's newsreader (I didn't know the
>links in the newsletter were going to show up like that). That certainly
>wasn't my intent. Pete

FWIW, it caused no trouble here. :-) Unfortunately there doesn't seem to 
be a way of doing it that 1) works for everybody and 2) doesn't cause 
trouble for somebody. <sigh> Ain't standards wonderful?

>"Kevin A." <klex49@blackhole.2kevin.net> wrote in message
>news:3h2rt3KLGH6BFAre@blackhole.2kevin.net...
>> Which is interesting and related to computers. :-)
>>
>> Kevin A.
>
>

-- 
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets:
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm
 From invalid, Reply To works.
Kevin A.
0
Kevin
1/15/2005 10:57:20 PM
In article <csbgm6$15ej$1@news.grc.com>, Alinator writes
>
>> Possibly, but where do you think DNA records end up?

Which has what to do with:

        This group discusses issues and concerns relating to Internet
        privacy. Note that this is separate and distinct from issues
        relating to Internet security, which have their own set of
        groups (see "security" below). Whereas security deals with
        "external intrusion" into our computers, privacy is concerned
        with issues of "internal extrusion".

http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#groups

All sorts of things _end up_ on computers, that doesn't necessarily make
them a good candidate for this group. My test scores from my most recent
bout with higher education would be an example of that. They're almost
certainly on a computer somewhere. [Earlier tests scores probably never
made it to computers. :-)] But that alone doesn't make them suitable for
discussion here.

>>The EPIC article went  on to the possibility since there were no
>>clearly spelling proceedures  for handling the destruction of the
>>"needless taken" samples, they may end  up working their way into
>>the, and now with new arrangements in  place international
>>databases. Exactly, what this group is about.

Not AFAICT. And not what you were discussing in your post anyway, you
were concerned about the legal aspects and consequences of a [nearly]
required submission of a DNA sample. Certainly a valid concern, just
[IMO] not appropriate for this group. BICBW.
>
>That should be: "clearly spelled out proceedures", and "way into national"
>
>Sheesh, my grammar and spelling has been TERRIBLE lately! :-)

BTDTGTTS. :-)
-- 
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets:
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm
From invalid, Reply To works.
Kevin A.
0
Kevin
1/15/2005 11:44:27 PM
"Kevin A." <klex49@blackhole.2kevin.net> wrote in message
news:w$CKqeEbra6BFAbP@blackhole.2kevin.net...
> In article <csbgm6$15ej$1@news.grc.com>, Alinator writes
> >
<snip>
>
> Not AFAICT. And not what you were discussing in your post anyway, you
> were concerned about the legal aspects and consequences of a [nearly]
> required submission of a DNA sample. Certainly a valid concern, just
> [IMO] not appropriate for this group. BICBW.

Perhaps I extrapolated it too far by considering an individuals personal
data "extruding" from one government system to another as pertinent to this
group?

However, this has now definitely gone off topic, so since I know you're a
long time GRC community member as well, I'll agree to disagree.

> >
<snip>
>
> BTDTGTTS. :-)

Besides, you've given me something new think about now! ;-)

Alinator
0
Alinator
1/16/2005 6:16:25 AM
Reply:

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