The Removal of non-standard headers ...

Gang,

	I want to strip all inbound postings of
	all non-standard and non-required headers.

I have been looking at the headers contained in postings here, and 
I'm annoyed.  In many cases the "headers" are amusing and personal 
.... but they are also HUGE and LONG ... many times, in fact, larger 
and longer than the individual's posting.  And since they are 
"configured" in the newsreader there is zero cost to the individual 
in having them since they need not be re-entered with every posting.

If we were expiring all articles I wouldn't care, but everyone wants 
to keep everything posted here forever, so those headers will forever 
consume space.  I want to zap'em on the way in.

I would/will append the archiving suppression headers, and a header 
of the form "X-Cecil-ID: <...>" would be allowed and valid for those 
who want to place their Cecil-ID there.

But otherwise, the inbound posting filter really *would* be a 
"filter" ... and would hugely clean-up the newsgroups.

Comments?  Thoughts?  Feelings??

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/19/2001 9:24:00 PM
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In article news:MPG.159962fa61f07df98976c@207.71.92.194, Steve Gibson 
<support@grc.com> kicked in with:

> Gang,
> 
>      I want to strip all inbound postings of
>      all non-standard and non-required headers.
> 
> I have been looking at the headers contained in postings here, and 
> I'm annoyed.  In many cases the "headers" are amusing and personal 
> ... but they are also HUGE and LONG ... many times, in fact, larger 
> and longer than the individual's posting.  And since they are 
> "configured" in the newsreader there is zero cost to the individual 
> in having them since they need not be re-entered with every posting.
> 
> If we were expiring all articles I wouldn't care, but everyone wants 
> to keep everything posted here forever, so those headers will forever 
> consume space.  I want to zap'em on the way in.
> 
> I would/will append the archiving suppression headers, and a header 
> of the form "X-Cecil-ID: <...>" would be allowed and valid for those 
> who want to place their Cecil-ID there.
> 
> But otherwise, the inbound posting filter really *would* be a 
> "filter" ... and would hugely clean-up the newsgroups.
> 
> Comments?  Thoughts?  Feelings??
> 

No problem at all, because I try to keep it as clean as possible anyway. 
One question however; could you keep the X-face header until the posts are 
archived? I've grown a bit fond of this XNews feature.

-- 
Fungus (aka Urgje / BomBom the Magnificent)
posting through XNews
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
PGP Key ID:0xDDD4F1E2
[urgje at dds dot nl]
0
Fungus
6/19/2001 9:31:00 PM
Salaam!

Steve Gibson wrote:

> I want to strip all inbound postings of
> all non-standard and non-required headers.

   Leaving what, exactly?

   I don't add any headers, but I use "Organization" to hold my Cecil
ID.  I enjoy reading headers to see what client and system others are
using.  I don't know how to "add" headers, or else I'd probably add an
"X-Cecil-ID" somewhere.  So what do you consider "standard" and
"required" that you'll leave in place?

> Steve Gibson, at work on: < a million loose ends >

was-salaam,
abujamal
-- 
PCHelpers:  Putting the "Personal" into "Personal Computers"
           and closing the door on the tyranny of ignorance.
PCHelpers International:  http://www.pchelpers.org/
news://news.pchelponline.org  mailto:pchelpers@pchelpers.org
0
abujamal
6/19/2001 9:39:00 PM
In message <MPG.159962fa61f07df98976c@207.71.92.194>, Steve Gibson 
<support@grc.com> writes
>Gang,
>
>       I want to strip all inbound postings of
>       all non-standard and non-required headers.
>

By that I assume you can leave all the Format, Posting Host, 
Organization, X-mailer type headers that provide actual information that 
can be useful? Do you have to write something to REMOVE specific headers 
(so that it needs modification when someone comes up with a new one) or 
is it something that only ALLOWS specific headers (and can be modified 
if someone points out that something legitimate is being stripped out of 
their posts? And can it deal with the fact that in some cases it's 
X-mailer and in others X-newsreader, and possibly others?
[]

>
>I would/will append the archiving suppression headers, and a header
>of the form "X-Cecil-ID: <...>" would be allowed and valid for those
>who want to place their Cecil-ID there.

In my case, and many others, Cecil-ID ends up in the organization 
header.

-- 
Kevin A.
0
Kevin
6/19/2001 9:40:00 PM
"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.159962fa61f07df98976c@207.71.92.194...
> Gang,
>
> I want to strip all inbound postings of
> all non-standard and non-required headers.
<snip>
>
> Comments?  Thoughts?  Feelings??
>

Steve,

No problem here. I think it is a good idea.

Ray
0
Ray
6/19/2001 9:41:00 PM
> One question however; could you keep the X-face header until
> the posts are archived? I've grown a bit fond of this XNews
> feature.

What the heck *IS* that X-Face nightmare anyway???

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/19/2001 9:45:00 PM
In article <MPG.159962fa61f07df98976c@207.71.92.194>, support@grc.com 
says...
<snip>
> 
> Comments?  Thoughts?  Feelings??
> 
> 
SNIP away!
-- 
l'bodacious - See turtle lover.
0
You
6/19/2001 10:03:00 PM
"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.159967cfa06480cd98976d@207.71.92.194...
>
> > One question however; could you keep the X-face header until
> > the posts are archived? I've grown a bit fond of this XNews
> > feature.
>
> What the heck *IS* that X-Face nightmare anyway???
>

Steve,

It's a rather bizarre (IMO) way of sending a 48x48 pixel gif as plain
text.

Ray
0
Ray
6/19/2001 10:06:00 PM
> 
> It's a rather bizarre (IMO) way of sending a 48x48 pixel gif
> as plain text.
> 

I rest my case.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/19/2001 10:12:00 PM
Posted by Steve Gibson, in article 
news:MPG.159967cfa06480cd98976d@207.71.92.194:

>> One question however; could you keep the X-face header until
>> the posts are archived? I've grown a bit fond of this XNews feature.
> 
> What the heck *IS* that X-Face nightmare anyway???
> 

It's a 48x48x1 bitmap encoded as ASCII.  I'll try to remember to strip 
mine before posting here, at least until you get automated header-
stripping in place.

�Q�
-- 
Philosophy is useless;
Theology is worse.
�����- M. Knopfler, 'Industrial Disease'
0
ouroboros
6/19/2001 10:13:00 PM
Posted by Kevin A., in article news:FnQ+0gP3a8L7EwOp@myrealbox.com:

> And can it deal with the fact that in some cases it's 
> X-mailer and in others X-newsreader, and possibly others?

User-Agent is another one.

�Q�
-- 
Look into the face of a child.
Measure how long you smile before the memory fades.
     - P. Townshend, 'Athena'
0
ouroboros
6/19/2001 10:13:00 PM
In article news:MPG.159967cfa06480cd98976d@207.71.92.194, Steve Gibson 
<support@grc.com> kicked in with:

>> One question however; could you keep the X-face header until
>> the posts are archived? I've grown a bit fond of this XNews feature.
> 
> What the heck *IS* that X-Face nightmare anyway???
> 

<LOL>
It appears to be an extra option that can be added to any newsreader, but 
has only been adopted (for now) by XNews. By adding a special dll there is 
the possibility of translating some code into a small graphic element. 

48x48 8 bit bitmaps have to be 'translated' into a code like this (my 
'image'):
P8rTm;Ki:W,=MSSZQttz#ov%c\Q{m:["D"67mw|m,W:ir&>R|'T~o~[zrVfyF`}N<KYkkiqc{(;
mas%(vSa^,Qh.Otw>ntLn6.ngSy1=8O|Thw2iZ,!5?~xw'^$+P'K>U.plw&]'{:H}<Q;qjFS1H(
XaUZ>GIA$'k!DE$|VVz;U~N6&x(To|JII-;#i;ap8h\qC}UwJ"we6C>zEV5}'Pxfr0L!n@q1y8{

which is translated back into a small image by the connected dll.

But I guess you don't like it . . . <grin>

-- 
Fungus (aka Urgje / BomBom the Magnificent)
posting through XNews
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
PGP Key ID:0xDDD4F1E2
[urgje at dds dot nl]
0
Fungus
6/19/2001 10:14:00 PM
 Two thoughts, neither may be the best :

 a) a daily cron job that reads through messages on disk and strips
unwanted  headers

 b) catch them on the way in with some sort of wrapper program around
the news server


Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
> Gang,
> 
>         I want to strip all inbound postings of
>         all non-standard and non-required headers.
> 
> I have been looking at the headers contained in postings here, and
> I'm annoyed.  In many cases the "headers" are amusing and personal
> ... but they are also HUGE and LONG ... many times, in fact, larger
> and longer than the individual's posting.  And since they are
> "configured" in the newsreader there is zero cost to the individual
> in having them since they need not be re-entered with every posting.
> 
> If we were expiring all articles I wouldn't care, but everyone wants
> to keep everything posted here forever, so those headers will forever
> consume space.  I want to zap'em on the way in.
> 
> I would/will append the archiving suppression headers, and a header
> of the form "X-Cecil-ID: <...>" would be allowed and valid for those
> who want to place their Cecil-ID there.
> 
> But otherwise, the inbound posting filter really *would* be a
> "filter" ... and would hugely clean-up the newsgroups.
> 
> Comments?  Thoughts?  Feelings??
> 
> --
> _________________________________________________________________
> Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
John
6/19/2001 10:14:00 PM
On Tue, 19 Jun 2001 at 14:24:48 you wrote:
  (Reference: <MPG.159962fa61f07df98976c@207.71.92.194>)


>I would/will append the archiving suppression headers, and a header of 
>the form "X-Cecil-ID: <...>" would be allowed and valid for those who 
>want to place their Cecil-ID there.

It is not practical for me to add a header X-Cecil-ID: <...> without 
typing it in every time I post. If you could detect the presence of it 
in another header, e.g. the Organisation:, and then  put that in a 
special header if you like.

If that is not possible, may we precede the ID with something like 
Cecil-ID so that you could detect it.

-- 
John Underwood
0
John
6/19/2001 10:20:00 PM
"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.15996e0f565aab0b98976e@207.71.92.194...
>
> >
> > It's a rather bizarre (IMO) way of sending a 48x48 pixel gif
> > as plain text.
> >
>
> I rest my case.
>

Steve,

heheh. I agree.

Ray
0
Ray
6/19/2001 10:22:00 PM
Steve Gibson <support@grc.com>  Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:24:48 -0700 : 
>
>But otherwise, the inbound posting filter really *would* be a 
>"filter" ... and would hugely clean-up the newsgroups.
>
>Comments?  Thoughts?  Feelings??

Good idea. Agreed.

Hans
0
Hans
6/19/2001 10:23:00 PM
Posted by Steve Gibson, in article 
news:MPG.159962fa61f07df98976c@207.71.92.194:

> Comments?  Thoughts?  Feelings??

Many users are posting jokes to ten-forward, and there's no need for 
these to be archived.  To avoid bloat in the archives, you might create 
at grc.jokes or somesuch, not to be archived.

Score on 'C&C' to see how much of ten-forward is devoted to joke posting.

�Q�
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the precipitate.
�����- S. Wright
0
ouroboros
6/19/2001 10:28:00 PM
Good idea Steve!  I have a very small hard drive and a naughty computer.  I
don't like to download unnecessary stuff!  :-)
~Nanell
0
Nanell
6/19/2001 10:29:00 PM
Replying to some of the questions and thoughts here so far ...

We would be RETAINING only those headers which are known to be 
useful.  So any/all unknown (bizarre) header types would be removed.

It would be done during the posting filtration process which is now 
well established and working ... and already doing cool things like 
appending the "X-No-Archive: yes" and "Archive: no" to all postings.

People could continue to place their Cecil-IDs in any standard header 
they like, such as in the "Organizations" header field, but we would 
also recognize the "official" extension header: "X-Cecil-ID" for 
containing a Cecil-ID header.

Here is my proposed "Valid" header list:

Archive: no
Date
Followup-To
From
Lines
Message-ID
Newsgroups
Organization
Path
Subject
References
NNTP-Posting-Host
NNTP-Posting-Date
X-Cecil-ID
X-No-Archive
X-Trace

The list above proposes to knowingly exclude:

Cancel-Key
Content-Type
Content-Base
Content-Disposition
Reply-To
Sender
X-Newsreader
X-Mailer
X-Cancelled-By
X-Canceled-By

.... and any/all others.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/19/2001 10:34:00 PM
> 
> But I guess you don't like it . . . <grin>
> 

I feel about that the same way I'd feel about HTML content in these 
groups ... which is the way I feel about HTML in eMail.  :)

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/19/2001 10:37:00 PM
In article news:MPG.159973462b14200e98976f@207.71.92.194, Steve Gibson 
<support@grc.com> kicked in with:

<>
> Here is my proposed "Valid" header list:
<>
> The list above proposes to knowingly exclude:
<>
> ... and any/all others.
 
Can certainly live with that! :-))

-- 
Fungus (aka Urgje / BomBom the Magnificent)
posting through XNews
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
PGP Key ID:0xDDD4F1E2
[urgje at dds dot nl]
0
Fungus
6/19/2001 10:37:00 PM
Hi John,

> It is not practical for me to add a header X-Cecil-ID: <...>
> without typing it in every time I post. If you could detect
> the presence of it in another header, e.g. the Organisation:,
> and then put that in a special header if you like.

Hey ... that's kind of a cool idea!

I was just thinking of leaving it wherever it appears -- as we do 
know.  Since it can appear anywhere.

But grabbing it out of an existing header and relocating it into a 
formal "X-Cecil-ID:" header is *VERY* cool!  <<grin>>

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/19/2001 10:38:00 PM
In article news:MPG.159973e64e3d753b989770@207.71.92.194, Steve Gibson 
<support@grc.com> kicked in with:

>> 
>> But I guess you don't like it . . . <grin>
>> 
> 
> I feel about that the same way I'd feel about HTML content in these 
> groups ... which is the way I feel about HTML in eMail.  :)
> 

Completely understandable, and I too hate HTML mail.
The X-Face things is just a funny 'extra', easily discarded.

-- 
Fungus (aka Urgje / BomBom the Magnificent)
posting through XNews
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
PGP Key ID:0xDDD4F1E2
[urgje at dds dot nl]
0
Fungus
6/19/2001 10:40:00 PM
"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.159973462b14200e98976f@207.71.92.194...
>
> Replying to some of the questions and thoughts here so far ...
>
> We would be RETAINING only those headers which are known to be
> useful.  So any/all unknown (bizarre) header types would be removed.
>

Steve,

What affect will leaving out Content-Type: have on the messages we
sometimes get here with alternate charsets?

My guess is that they would not display properly.

Ray
0
Ray
6/19/2001 10:42:00 PM
> Many users are posting jokes to ten-forward, and there's no
> need for these to be archived.  To avoid bloat in the archives,
> you might create at grc.jokes or somesuch, not to be archived.
> 
> Score on 'C&C' to see how much of ten-forward is devoted to
> joke posting.

Well ... *none* of ten-forward will be devoted to joke posting before 
long since my long-term plan is to trim the entire ten-forward tree 
from grc.

The ten-forward idea made sense once, when we had only one or two 
groups and there was lots that didn't fit anywhere.  But that has, of 
course, changed and the ten-forward branch represents a MASSIVE load 
on grc that I do not intend to move over to the new Unix server.

- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/19/2001 10:43:00 PM
Nanell.

> Good idea Steve!  I have a very small hard drive and a naughty
> computer.  I don't like to download unnecessary stuff!  :-)

Hey ... I was so busy thinking/worrying about the server that I 
didn't even pause to consider that ALL OF YOU GUYS are largely 
duplicating what's here as well.

You're right, that's huge!

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/19/2001 10:44:00 PM
Salaam!

Steve Gibson wrote:

> The ten-forward idea made sense once, when we had only one
> or two groups and there was lots that didn't fit anywhere.
> But that has, of course, changed and the ten-forward branch
> represents a MASSIVE load on grc that I do not intend to
> move over to the new Unix server.

   So three of the six newsgroups that I read are about to disappear? 
"Baby" and "bathwater" come to mind.

> Steve Gibson, at work on: < a million loose ends >

was-salaam,
abujamal
-- 
PCHelpers:  Putting the "Personal" into "Personal Computers"
           and closing the door on the tyranny of ignorance.
PCHelpers International:  http://www.pchelpers.org/
news://news.pchelponline.org  mailto:pchelpers@pchelpers.org
0
abujamal
6/19/2001 10:48:00 PM
Posted by Fungus, in article news:Xns90C629FCDAAE6Mk0808v@207.71.92.194:

[about X-Face:]
> 48x48 8 bit bitmaps

Slight correction.  They're 48x48 bitmaps, but the color depth is 1 bit.

�Q�
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the precipitate.
�����- S. Wright
0
ouroboros
6/19/2001 10:49:00 PM
Steve Gibson <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.159973462b14200e98976f@207.71.92.194...
> The list above proposes to knowingly exclude:
>
> Reply-To

Many people (myself included) munge the From address & put a valid address
in Reply-To.  Maybe you could just strip the unwanted X-perimental headers?

--
Ray Marron
0
Ray
6/19/2001 10:50:00 PM
In article news:Xns90C5B4EF88B41itsmeitsQ@127.0.0.1, ouroboros@apexmail.com 
(�Q�) kicked in with:

> Posted by Fungus, in article news:Xns90C629FCDAAE6Mk0808v@207.71.92.194:
> 
> [about X-Face:]
>> 48x48 8 bit bitmaps
> 
> Slight correction.  They're 48x48 bitmaps, but the color depth is 1 bit.
> 
> �Q�

Okay! Bad memory I guess, have to buy some new while it's cheap! <g>

-- 
Fungus (aka Urgje / BomBom the Magnificent)
posting through XNews
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
PGP Key ID:0xDDD4F1E2
[urgje at dds dot nl]
0
Fungus
6/19/2001 10:51:00 PM
In message <9gokf3$1uoq$1@news.grc.com>, Ray F. Jones 
<rfjones@oakcrest.com> writes
>
>"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
>news:MPG.159973462b14200e98976f@207.71.92.194...
>>
>> Replying to some of the questions and thoughts here so far ...
>>
>> We would be RETAINING only those headers which are known to be
>> useful.  So any/all unknown (bizarre) header types would be removed.
>>
>
>Steve,
>
>What affect will leaving out Content-Type: have on the messages we
>sometimes get here with alternate charsets?
>
>My guess is that they would not display properly.
A lot of times it's also handy to see what newsreader people are using. 
Helps with understanding why wraps are weird, or in explaining to them 
where to change a setting for instance.

-- 
Kevin A.
0
Kevin
6/19/2001 10:53:00 PM
In article news:MPG.1599757d8849837989772@207.71.92.194, Steve Gibson 
<support@grc.com> kicked in with:

> the ten-forward branch represents a MASSIVE load 
> on grc that I do not intend to move over to the new Unix server

Aren't they already there then? I would have guessed, on basis of previous 
messages, that it wouldn't even reappear after the 'blackout' and ensuing 
server transition . . .

-- 
Fungus (aka Urgje / BomBom the Magnificent)
posting through XNews
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
PGP Key ID:0xDDD4F1E2
[urgje at dds dot nl]
0
Fungus
6/19/2001 10:54:00 PM
In article <MPG.159973462b14200e98976f@207.71.92.194>, Steve Gibson 
said...
> 
> Replying to some of the questions and thoughts here so far ...
> 
> We would be RETAINING only those headers which are known to be 
> useful.  So any/all unknown (bizarre) header types would be removed.

Fine with me, for the same reasons you mentioned at the outset. joWazoo 
will have a shock when he returns, but he'll get over it ;)

> The list above proposes to knowingly exclude:

> X-Newsreader

Hmm ... they are regular technical posting queries, with answers 
dependent upon which news client is in use. And of course you have 
extensive pages on newsreader configurations which lead on to such 
questions.

You might consider leaving that one in?

Besides, how will Jim know which posts to respond to with an OE jibe, 
and how will wide-eyed newbies know to which superior client he 
obliquely refers, err, occasionally.

-- 
Milly
0
Milly
6/19/2001 11:02:00 PM
"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.159973462b14200e98976f@207.71.92.194...
>
> The list above proposes to knowingly exclude:
>
> X-Newsreader

Then how would anybody be able to chastise the author for using OE? ;^)
0
Big
6/19/2001 11:10:00 PM
Steve Gibson wrote:

> Gang,
> 
> I want to strip all inbound postings of
> all non-standard and non-required headers.
> 
        I have no problems with this.  But a question.
What about the "flamers"? How can we back track them? 
And a few others that post "*&^%$#" and other things. How can 
we or you stop them?

> Comments?  Thoughts?  Feelings??
> 

-- 
        DaR

Remove the spam to reply.
0
DaR
6/19/2001 11:12:00 PM
Steve Gibson wrote:

<SNIP>

> The list above proposes to knowingly exclude:

<SNIP>

> X-Newsreader

Personally I'd like to see this one left in.  I look at this field on a 
regular basis to get a feel for O/S use amongst posters.  It's been 
interesting to see the growth in the numbers of people using *NIX agents in 
the GRC groups.  Last year there were only a few of us, and today the 
number has grown much larger.  I'm sure I'm not the only one who has been 
watching this trend, and would like to continue doing so.

Another benefit to this information being present is the ability to offer 
someone help w/ the knowledge of what platform they running.  In many 
instances posters don't mention what O/S they are using, but the header 
tells us Win9x, NT, what Linux kernel etc., or we are able to deduce the 
operating system based on their news reader details.

<SNIP>


Regards,

SpeedMan
0
SpeedMan
6/19/2001 11:13:00 PM
Posted by Ray Marron, in article news:9gokt9$1vbt$1@news.grc.com:

> Many people (myself included) munge the From address & put a valid
> address in Reply-To.  Maybe you could just strip the unwanted
> X-perimental headers? 

Imo, allowing Reply-To would be a good idea.  There needs to be somewhere 
to put an e-mail addy that is not returned by the XOVER command.  

Specifying which headers are *not* allowed is no good.  NNTP allows 
almost anything to be put in the headers.  See mine with this post for an 
example.

�Q�
-- 
Philosophy is useless;
Theology is worse.
�����- M. Knopfler, 'Industrial Disease'
0
ouroboros
6/19/2001 11:14:00 PM
In article <9gojfk$1tir$1@news.grc.com> "Ray F. Jones" wrote:
> "Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.15996e0f565aab0b98976e@207.71.92.194...
> >
> > > It's a rather bizarre (IMO) way of sending a 48x48 pixel gif
> > > as plain text.
> >
> > I rest my case.
> 
> Steve,
> 
> heheh. I agree.
> 
ROTFLMAO!!!

Me, three!!!
-- 
Alan
(at work on 21st century Energy Theory)
0
Hermital
6/19/2001 11:18:00 PM
Ten-Forward ...

You may recall that we briefly flirted with the idea of a "chat" 
group of some sort.

My plan is to retain "Ten-Forward" as is, but with a seven-day 
article expiration and *no* long-term archiving.

That solves my problems of endlessly accumulating "chat-style" 
content while still giving people a place to hang out and "chat", and 
also retaining the non-real-time benefits of newsgroups.  :)

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/19/2001 11:21:00 PM
In message <Xns90C5AEE2D1406itsmeitsQ@127.0.0.1>, ›Q‹ 
<ouroboros@apexmail.com.invalid> writes
>Posted by Kevin A., in article news:FnQ+0gP3a8L7EwOp@myrealbox.com:
>
>> And can it deal with the fact that in some cases it's
>> X-mailer and in others X-newsreader, and possibly others?
>
>User-Agent is another one.
>
In fact, User-Agent is now *the* one.  The rest are now obsolete, but 
agents are expected to be generous in what they receive, and 
conservative in what they send, as always.

-- 
Jim (Cruncher) Crowther                      "It's MY computer"
*               It's our turn to help pchelp                  *
*                  <http://pchelpers.org>                     *
*    <http://www.cozmikshirts.co.uk/rooms/pchelpers.shtml>    *
0
Jim
6/19/2001 11:24:00 PM
Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
> Here is my proposed "Valid" header list:
> 
> Archive: no
> Date
> Followup-To
> From
> Lines
> Message-ID
> Newsgroups
> Organization
> Path
> Subject
> References
> NNTP-Posting-Host
> NNTP-Posting-Date
> X-Cecil-ID
> X-No-Archive
> X-Trace
> 
> The list above proposes to knowingly exclude:
> 
> Cancel-Key
> Content-Type
> Content-Base
> Content-Disposition
> Reply-To
> Sender
> X-Newsreader
> X-Mailer
> X-Cancelled-By
> X-Canceled-By
> 
> ... and any/all others.
> 

Please retain Reply-To. I see many cases where the From address is bogus
but the Reply-To address is accurate, or at least decypherable. Removing
it would make it impossible for someone to reply personally to these
persons.

> --
> _________________________________________________________________
> Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >


-- 
_____________________________________________________________________
 _ __  __                        Remember the Legend - Dale Earnhardt
| '  \/ _|
|_|_|_\__|                                      http://pchelpers.org/

--+ The only constant in the universe is change +--
--+       Always stop and smell the roses       +--

<<==-- Drain the WATER from my email to reply --==>>
0
mc
6/19/2001 11:25:00 PM
In article <Xns90C629FCDAAE6Mk0808v@207.71.92.194> Fungus wrote:
> In article news:MPG.159967cfa06480cd98976d@207.71.92.194, Steve Gibson
> <support@grc.com> kicked in with:
> >
> > What the heck *IS* that X-Face nightmare anyway???
> 
> <LOL>
> It appears to be an extra option that can be added to any newsreader, but
> has only been adopted (for now) by XNews. By adding a special dll there is
> the possibility of translating some code into a small graphic element.
> 
> 48x48 8 bit bitmaps have to be 'translated' into a code like this (my
> 'image'):
> P8rTm;Ki:W,=MSSZQttz#ov%c\Q{m:["D"67mw|m,W:ir&>R|'T~o~[zrVfyF`}N<KYkkiqc{(;
> mas%(vSa^,Qh.Otw>ntLn6.ngSy1=8O|Thw2iZ,!5?~xw'^$+P'K>U.plw&]'{:H}<Q;qjFS1H(
> XaUZ>GIA$'k!DE$|VVz;U~N6&x(To|JII-;#i;ap8h\qC}UwJ"we6C>zEV5}'Pxfr0L!n@q1y8{
> 
> which is translated back into a small image by the connected dll.
> 
> But I guess you don't like it . . . <grin>
> 
I really don't care for it either.
> --
> Fungus (aka Urgje / BomBom the Magnificent)
> 
From my Netscape perspective, BomBom is not so magnificent.  Here's what
I see in your headers:

-------- Original Message --------
Path: news.grc.com!not-for-mail
From: Fungus <urgje@dds.nl>
Newsgroups: grc.news.feedback
Subject: Re: The Removal of non-standard headers ...
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 22:14:04 +0000 (UTC)
Organization: SporeCount
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <Xns90C629FCDAAE6Mk0808v@207.71.92.194>
References: <MPG.159962fa61f07df98976c@207.71.92.194>
<Xns90C5EF8CFBC7D6Mk0808v@207.71.92.194>
<MPG.159967cfa06480cd98976d@207.71.92.194>
NNTP-Posting-Host: d157039.upc-d.chello.nl
X-Trace: news.grc.com 992988844 59483 213.46.157.39 (19 Jun 2001
22:14:04 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: support@grc.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 22:14:04 +0000 (UTC)
Archive: no
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Face:
P8rTm;Ki:W,=MSSZQttz#ov%c\Q{m:["D"67mw|m,W:ir&>R|'T~o~[zrVfyF`}N<KYkkiqc{(;mas%(vSa^,Qh.Otw>ntLn6.ngSy1=8O|Thw2iZ,!5?~xw'^$+P'K>U.plw&]'{:H}<Q;qjFS1H(XaUZ>GIA$'k!DE$|VVz;U~N6&x(To|JII-h;#i;ap8h\qC}UwJ"we6C>zEV5}'Pxfr0L!n@q1y8{
User-Agent: Xnews/4.06.11
X-Cecil-ID: <0o1wpozaluns5hv2hahfn4wf2e1val4g>
Xref: news.grc.com grc.news.feedback:12164
-------- end --------

I'm with Steve:  I can easily do without it.
-- 
Alan
(at work on 21st century Energy Theory)
0
Hermital
6/19/2001 11:30:00 PM
In message <MPG.159973462b14200e98976f@207.71.92.194>, Steve Gibson 
<support@grc.com> writes
>The list above proposes to knowingly exclude:
>
>Cancel-Key
>X-Newsreader
>X-Mailer
>X-Cancelled-By
>X-Canceled-By
>Content-Disposition
>Content-Base

Agreed to the above.

>Content-Type
>Reply-To
>Sender

Totally disagree with the above three.  They are essential headers to 
some folks.

-- 
Jim (Cruncher) Crowther                      "It's MY computer"
*               It's our turn to help pchelp                  *
*                  <http://pchelpers.org>                     *
*    <http://www.cozmikshirts.co.uk/rooms/pchelpers.shtml>    *
0
Jim
6/19/2001 11:30:00 PM
Salaam!

Steve Gibson wrote:

> Ten-Forward ... My plan is to retain "Ten-Forward"
> as is, but with a seven-day article expiration and
> *no* long-term archiving.

   That relieves my concerns, actually.

> Steve Gibson, at work on: < a million loose ends >

was-salaam,
abujamal
-- 
PCHelpers:  Putting the "Personal" into "Personal Computers"
           and closing the door on the tyranny of ignorance.
PCHelpers International:  http://www.pchelpers.org/
news://news.pchelponline.org  mailto:pchelpers@pchelpers.org
0
abujamal
6/19/2001 11:33:00 PM
In message <MPG.1599ea4f6054fa62989ddd@207.71.92.194>, Milly 
<no_sp@m.gov> writes
>In article <MPG.159973462b14200e98976f@207.71.92.194>, Steve Gibson
>said...
>>
>> Replying to some of the questions and thoughts here so far ...
>>
>> We would be RETAINING only those headers which are known to be
>> useful.  So any/all unknown (bizarre) header types would be removed.
>
>Fine with me, for the same reasons you mentioned at the outset. joWazoo
>will have a shock when he returns, but he'll get over it ;)
>
Heh.  In fact, bloody big GRIN.

>> The list above proposes to knowingly exclude:
>
>> X-Newsreader
>
>Hmm ... they are regular technical posting queries, with answers
>dependent upon which news client is in use. And of course you have
>extensive pages on newsreader configurations which lead on to such
>questions.
>
>You might consider leaving that one in?
>
>Besides, how will Jim know which posts to respond to with an OE jibe,
>and how will wide-eyed newbies know to which superior client he
>obliquely refers, err, occasionally.

Who, me, what?  Using User-Agent here meself, wot-me-worry...

::cough::

-- 
Jim (Cruncher) Crowther                      "It's MY computer"
*               It's our turn to help pchelp                  *
*                  <http://pchelpers.org>                     *
*    <http://www.cozmikshirts.co.uk/rooms/pchelpers.shtml>    *
0
Jim
6/19/2001 11:34:00 PM
On Tue, 19 Jun 2001 at 15:34:28 you wrote:
  (Reference: <MPG.159973462b14200e98976f@207.71.92.194>)


>The list above proposes to knowingly exclude:
>
>Reply-To

Do that and e-mail sent to me in response to a message will go in my 
spam bin. (Assuming it gets answered at all using the From: address). 
For some people it will be rejected out of hand.
-- 
John Underwood
0
John
6/19/2001 11:34:00 PM
In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback... Steve Gibson wrote...

> X-Newsreader
> X-Mailer

OK - so you don't like the X-Face :(

I would like these to be allowed, like others I want to see the type 
of client that the poster uses. So much so that I have those 
headers specifically displayed whenever they are available.

For sure I would like these to be retained:
user-agent
x-newsreader
x-mailer

Oh - Your server has been kinda funky lately, sometimes real slow.
I hope this is just because you are working on it.

Regards,
Guy
-- 

                  GRC Newsgroups - - Security & Privacy
news://news.grc.com/grc.security     news://news.grc.com/grc.privacy 
	       news://news.grc.com/grc.security.software
          F6E8 F899 A160 4DAA  6AC4 8BDF F104 3E86		        
0
Guy
6/19/2001 11:38:00 PM
In class today, we explored a novel idea for gaining information:

Ask them :-)


"Kevin A." <klex49@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:jB+XdvRNf9L7Ew5J@myrealbox.com...
> In message <9gokf3$1uoq$1@news.grc.com>, Ray F. Jones
> <rfjones@oakcrest.com> writes
> >
> >"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
> >news:MPG.159973462b14200e98976f@207.71.92.194...
> >>
> >> Replying to some of the questions and thoughts here so far ...
> >>
> >> We would be RETAINING only those headers which are known to be
> >> useful.  So any/all unknown (bizarre) header types would be removed.
> >>
> >
> >Steve,
> >
> >What affect will leaving out Content-Type: have on the messages we
> >sometimes get here with alternate charsets?
> >
> >My guess is that they would not display properly.
> A lot of times it's also handy to see what newsreader people are using.
> Helps with understanding why wraps are weird, or in explaining to them
> where to change a setting for instance.
>
> --
> Kevin A.
0
Some
6/19/2001 11:40:00 PM
"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.159973462b14200e98976f@207.71.92.194...
[...]
> The list above proposes to knowingly exclude:
>
> Cancel-Key
> Content-Type
> Content-Base
> Content-Disposition
> Reply-To
> Sender
> X-Newsreader
> X-Mailer
> X-Cancelled-By
> X-Canceled-By
>
> ... and any/all others.

A neat benefit of that is that it APPEARS as though it will BREAK most
standard HTML news-postings. Most html postings duplicate content, as I'm
sure you know, with various header tags to tell html enabled readers where
the juicy bits are (essentially, the html is an attachment, or little
better). I HOPE that after the filtering of headers is done, news-readers
like OE will ignore the html component.

Another neat possibility that occurs, while on that train of thought, is to
simply filter all attachment type content (in all or most groups?). This
would neuter HTML posts (I hope) as well as simply eliminating any attemts
at posting binary attachments. Is that something that is feasible and/or
worthwhile to do here?

Regards,
Sam
0
Sam
6/19/2001 11:45:00 PM
On or about 19 Jun 2001 we observed Steve Gibson <support@grc.com> 
intimating in <MPG.159967cfa06480cd98976d@207.71.92.194>:

>
>> One question however; could you keep the X-face header until
>> the posts are archived? I've grown a bit fond of this XNews feature.
>
>What the heck *IS* that X-Face nightmare anyway???
>

http://www.geocities.com/quazar_nl/winface/
0
randyconk
6/19/2001 11:47:00 PM
"Fungus" <urgje@dds.nl> wrote in message
news:Xns90C629FCDAAE6Mk0808v@207.71.92.194...
> In article news:MPG.159967cfa06480cd98976d@207.71.92.194, Steve Gibson
> <support@grc.com> kicked in with:
>
> >> One question however; could you keep the X-face header until
> >> the posts are archived? I've grown a bit fond of this XNews feature.
> >
> > What the heck *IS* that X-Face nightmare anyway???
> >
>
> <LOL>
> It appears to be an extra option that can be added to any newsreader, but
> has only been adopted (for now) by XNews.

X-Face is a heck of a lot older than Xnews (which you appear to have
misspelled :)), dating at least to 1991.
This makes it about as old as the web itself.  It has been implemented in
many many
mail and news programs; unfortunately the majority of these are for various
flavors of
Unix.
See
<http://www.cs.indiana.edu/l/www/ftp/faces/mailing_list/1991-html/0000.html>

Take a second to google before you post.
0
Ross
6/19/2001 11:49:00 PM
Posted by Some dull guy, in article news:9gonr5$2341$1@news.grc.com:

[about lack of headers identifying software used]
> In class today, we explored a novel idea for gaining information:
> 
> Ask them :-)

I agree.  That info can be gotten when needed, without having it attached 
to every single post.

�Q�
-- 
Philosophy is useless;
Theology is worse.
�����- M. Knopfler, 'Industrial Disease'
0
ouroboros
6/20/2001 12:01:00 AM
In message <Xns90C5C058619C7itsmeitsQ@127.0.0.1>, ›Q‹ 
<ouroboros@apexmail.com.invalid> writes
>Posted by Some dull guy, in article news:9gonr5$2341$1@news.grc.com:
>
>[about lack of headers identifying software used]
>> In class today, we explored a novel idea for gaining information:
>>
>> Ask them :-)
>
>I agree.  That info can be gotten when needed, without having it attached
>to every single post.
>
Example please of how that would work?  Think about trolls...

-- 
Jim (Cruncher) Crowther                      "It's MY computer"
*               It's our turn to help pchelp                  *
*                  <http://pchelpers.org>                     *
*    <http://www.cozmikshirts.co.uk/rooms/pchelpers.shtml>    *
0
Jim
6/20/2001 12:07:00 AM
Posted by Jim Crowther, in article news:PRzQKBYMl+L7EA9X@grc.com.ngs:

> In message <Xns90C5C058619C7itsmeitsQ@127.0.0.1>, ›Q‹ 
> <ouroboros@apexmail.com.invalid> writes
>>Posted by Some dull guy, in article news:9gonr5$2341$1@news.grc.com:
>>
>>[about lack of headers identifying software used]
>>> In class today, we explored a novel idea for gaining information:
>>>
>>> Ask them :-)
>>
>>I agree.  That info can be gotten when needed, without having it
>>attached to every single post.
>>
> Example please of how that would work? 

Perhaps I'm being naive.  Poster A asks a question.  Poster B replies 'It 
would help me to answer if I knew what newsreader you use.'  Poster A 
answers.  Thread continues.
 
> Think about trolls...

You've lost me.  Is it important to know what posting agent trolls are 
using?

Ah, maybe I see what you're suggesting.  If a spambot or somesuch were to 
attack this these group, it would be helpful to have *all* the headers it 
sent, in order to track it down, right?  I'd think in that case Steve 
could set up his server to log them.

�Q�
-- 
Philosophy is useless;
Theology is worse.
�����- M. Knopfler, 'Industrial Disease'
0
ouroboros
6/20/2001 1:03:00 AM
Wouldn't this proposal eliminate the ability to post any type of
attachment? I agree with eliminating HTML if at all possible, but
banning small .log, .txt, or .reg type attachments in the process is (to
me) too extreme. Or am I misunderstanding?
--  NNG
***  I Hate SPAM (from the can or via e-mail)  ***
Resistance is futi.... ohhhh cookies!!  --MS of Borg

"Sam Schinke" <arishae.NO@SPAM.icqmail.com> wrote in message
news:9gonu3$23e5$1@news.grc.com...
:
[..]
: A neat benefit of that is that it APPEARS as though it will BREAK most
: standard HTML news-postings. Most html postings duplicate content, as
I'm
: sure you know, with various header tags to tell html enabled readers
where
: the juicy bits are (essentially, the html is an attachment, or little
: better). I HOPE that after the filtering of headers is done,
news-readers
: like OE will ignore the html component.
:
: Another neat possibility that occurs, while on that train of thought,
is to
: simply filter all attachment type content (in all or most groups?).
This
: would neuter HTML posts (I hope) as well as simply eliminating any
attemts
: at posting binary attachments. Is that something that is feasible
and/or
: worthwhile to do here?
:
: Regards,
: Sam
0
NoNameGiven
6/20/2001 1:19:00 AM
"NoNameGiven" <pugnacious_1@hotmail.INVALID> wrote in message
news:9gotk7$29bl$1@news.grc.com...
> Wouldn't this proposal eliminate the ability to post any type of
> attachment? I agree with eliminating HTML if at all possible, but
> banning small .log, .txt, or .reg type attachments in the process is (to
> me) too extreme. Or am I misunderstanding?

No misunderstanding. I concurr with your position, but hasn't Steve
expressed a desire to have no binary postings here? Further, restrictions on
plain-text attachments can be easily overcome by simply saying "paste the
following into notepad and save as <X>". Though less convenient, the content
can still be communicated.

Regards,
Sam
0
Sam
6/20/2001 1:24:00 AM
In article <MPG.159962fa61f07df98976c@207.71.92.194>, support@grc.com says...
> Gang,
> 
> 	I want to strip all inbound postings of
> 	all non-standard and non-required headers.

<snip>

> I would/will append the archiving suppression headers, and a header 
> of the form "X-Cecil-ID: <...>" would be allowed and valid for those 
> who want to place their Cecil-ID there.

<snip>


In the page that is spit out by ne.dll after submitting a passphrase to the no-regrets page that is minus a post number, you explain the details of how to implement a cecil-id into a newsreader.

The section of text where you explain that, is provided between the next set of dashed lines for your convenience.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------FROM WEB PAGE

If Your Newsreader Supports Custom Headers . . .

As an alternative to appending your Cecil-ID to the end of your Organization header: If your newsreader supports the addition of custom header lines � as all newsreaders other than Microsoft's and Netscape's do � you may instead create your own header line from scratch. The only requirement for this 
line is that it obeys the standard convention of having a label followed by a colon, a space, and the header's data.

A sample header line (the one I use) would look like this:

X-Cecil-ID: <n2inpoadko1jaucdnzimkkh1bws5y1wa>
Since a header called "Cecil-ID" would be non-standard, the "X-" in front of "Cecil-ID" (as shown above) assures that the header will pass unaltered through any proxy servers that may be used by your Internet connection. The "X-" might not be needed, but without it there is a chance that something will 
remove the header.

However, one reason NOT to prefix an "X-" onto your custom Cecil-ID header is that the grc.com nightly newsgroup archiver DOES strip all non-standard header lines from all messages as they are moved into the archives. This means that you would be unable to delete any of your postings from the archive 
newsgroups, which would otherwise be possible. If you think that deleting a old posting of yours from our archives is an option you would like to retain, you should either place your Cecil-ID in the Organization field, or use a custom "Cecil-ID" without the "X-" prefix.
 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------END OF WEB PAGE TEXT

So I attempted to solve the potential for problems simply by putting them both, and it seems to work.

I assume now, that the final paragraph from the webtext above, does not apply -- meaning that the "nightly archiver" DOES NOT strip away "X-Cecil-ID: <...>" from any postings.
I was unable to, and still cannot now -- ascertain the validity of that statement... simply because checking old posts to see if this archiver function is currently in effect, would not reveal reality given the unknowns of current grc news-server software upgrades.

Will appropriate changes to the webpages precede filtration implementation?

Regards
Carlene
0
Carlene
6/20/2001 1:45:00 AM
Will you keep orginazation so that the people that followed your suggestion
and put the Cecil-D there will be ok?

Or would this be covered by "standard" headers?

"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.159962fa61f07df98976c@207.71.92.194...
> Gang,
>
> I want to strip all inbound postings of
> all non-standard and non-required headers.
>
> I have been looking at the headers contained in postings here, and
> I'm annoyed.  In many cases the "headers" are amusing and personal
> ... but they are also HUGE and LONG ... many times, in fact, larger
> and longer than the individual's posting.  And since they are
> "configured" in the newsreader there is zero cost to the individual
> in having them since they need not be re-entered with every posting.
>
> If we were expiring all articles I wouldn't care, but everyone wants
> to keep everything posted here forever, so those headers will forever
> consume space.  I want to zap'em on the way in.
>
> I would/will append the archiving suppression headers, and a header
> of the form "X-Cecil-ID: <...>" would be allowed and valid for those
> who want to place their Cecil-ID there.
>
> But otherwise, the inbound posting filter really *would* be a
> "filter" ... and would hugely clean-up the newsgroups.
>
> Comments?  Thoughts?  Feelings??
>
> --
> _________________________________________________________________
> Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
DarkLuser
6/20/2001 2:14:00 AM
Ross,

So what's the intent?  To sort of have a personal "logo" or "icon" 
that accompanies every post??

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/20/2001 2:27:00 AM
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/quazar_nl/winface/
> 

Interesting Randy.  Thanks for that.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/20/2001 2:28:00 AM
> Ah, maybe I see what you're suggesting.  If a spambot or
> somesuch were to attack this these group, it would be
> helpful to have *all* the headers it sent, in order to
> track it down, right?  I'd think in that case Steve 
> could set up his server to log them.

Actually ... with the power I have now, we could *PREVENT* anything 
like that by, for example, *requiring* that anyone posting here first 
get a Cecil-ID.  We don't now of course, but we could.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/20/2001 2:35:00 AM
In article <9goo8b$23ko$1@news.grc.com>, ross.presser@verizon.net says...
> X-Face is a heck of a lot older than Xnews (which you appear to have
> misspelled :)), dating at least to 1991.
> This makes it about as old as the web itself.  It has been implemented in
> many many
> mail and news programs; unfortunately the majority of these are for various
> flavors of
> Unix.
> See
> <http://www.cs.indiana.edu/l/www/ftp/faces/mailing_list/1991-html/0000.html>
> 
> Take a second to google before you post.
> 
>

If it wasn't for that smiley face previous, that last order ya barked there might have had me thinking you over reacted.

Thank goodness for smiley faces!

:)
0
Carlene
6/20/2001 2:39:00 AM
Hi Ray,

> > The list above proposes to knowingly exclude:
> >
> > Reply-To
> 
> Many people (myself included) munge the From address & put a
> valid address in Reply-To.  Maybe you could just strip the
> unwanted X-perimental headers?

Well ... I'm really serious about wanting to clean things up.
I'll also clean things up similarly when I move the archives to the 
new server.

Given that a "From" header is not optional, but "Reply-To" is 
entirely optional -- and typically redundant -- I am currently 
planning to strip the optional "Reply-To" from posts and leave the 
required "From". I hope that'll be play for you.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/20/2001 2:40:00 AM
Hi mc,

> 
> Please retain Reply-To. I see many cases where the From address is bogus
> but the Reply-To address is accurate, or at least decypherable. Removing
> it would make it impossible for someone to reply personally to these
> persons.
> 

Since "From" is required, but "Reply-To" is optional ... and since 
their content is redundant, I can't see keeping them both when the 
goal is to clean things up and not retain unneeded headers.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/20/2001 2:44:00 AM
> Do that and e-mail sent to me in response to a message will
> go in my spam bin. (Assuming it gets answered at all using
> the From: address).  For some people it will be rejected out
> of hand.

I don't understand John.  If you have a valid address in "From" that 
will be used.  "From" is required but "Reply-To" is not.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/20/2001 2:46:00 AM
DaR,

> I have no problems with this.  But a question.
> What about the "flamers"? How can we back track them? 
> And a few others that post "*&^%$#" and other things. How can 
> we or you stop them?

We'll still have their IP address and, often, reverse DNS.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/20/2001 2:48:00 AM
Very good points.

> Will appropriate changes to the webpages precede filtration
> implementation?

Probably not.  The technology is always more fun!  <<grin>>
But if I forget to update the pages PLEASE do remind me!

The details of the archiving will all be changing too.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/20/2001 2:51:00 AM
Posted by Steve Gibson, in article 
news:MPG.1599a9f3b879c034989776@207.71.92.194:

> So what's the intent?  To sort of have a personal "logo" or "icon" 
> that accompanies every post??

Yes.  It was developed as a way for posters to include images, usually of 
themselves, with each post.  Today, most X-Faces I see are not images of 
the posters, but logos or icons as you say.

Now that there's a WWW, they are a bit obsolete.  If anyone wants 
everybody to know he looks like, a link to a jpeg in the sig would do.

Note that they were designed for USENET, where posts expire naturally.  
They're not really so nightmarish unless your goal is to archive.

�Q�
-- 
Reality leaves a lot to the imagination.
     - J. Lennon
0
ouroboros
6/20/2001 3:08:00 AM
I believe you're correct about Steve's desire for no binaries, but (I
don't think) binaries have been a problem.  Your suggestion of cut&paste
would work for the file types I mentioned, but the formatting gets
really hosed (i.e., log files and even .reg files).  Also, cut&paste
wouldn't work for .zip or other non-binary graphic types (.zip, .ico,
..jpg, .gif), not that there are really a lot of those kind of attachment
files in these NGs.

Personally, I'd like to see a way of handling posts with attachments so
that only the post (with an attachment flag) is downloaded initially.
Then the user could read the post and decide whether or not they want to
incur the extra time/bandwidth required to download the attachment
portion separately.  I guess that's asking for too much though, huh? <g>
--  NNG
***  I Hate SPAM (from the can or via e-mail)  ***
Resistance is futi.... ohhhh cookies!!  --MS of Borg

"Sam Schinke" <arishae.NO@SPAM.icqmail.com> wrote in message
news:9gotnr$29o1$1@news.grc.com...
:
: "NoNameGiven" <pugnacious_1@hotmail.INVALID> wrote in message
: news:9gotk7$29bl$1@news.grc.com...
: > Wouldn't this proposal eliminate the ability to post any type of
: > attachment? I agree with eliminating HTML if at all possible, but
: > banning small .log, .txt, or .reg type attachments in the process is
(to
: > me) too extreme. Or am I misunderstanding?
:
: No misunderstanding. I concurr with your position, but hasn't Steve
: expressed a desire to have no binary postings here? Further,
restrictions on
: plain-text attachments can be easily overcome by simply saying "paste
the
: following into notepad and save as <X>". Though less convenient, the
content
: can still be communicated.
:
: Regards,
: Sam
:
:
0
NoNameGiven
6/20/2001 3:20:00 AM
Posted by Steve Gibson, in article 
news:MPG.1599acfe85062cf4989779@207.71.92.194:

> Given that a "From" header is not optional, but "Reply-To" is 
> entirely optional -- and typically redundant -- I am currently 
> planning to strip the optional "Reply-To" from posts and leave the 
> required "From".

For many users those two headers are not redundant, and it's because of 
the way XOVER is used by spammers.  The address-harvesting bots used by 
spammers only send an XOVER request, to avoid wasting their resources 
downloading full headers and message bodies.  XOVER returns the From 
header, but not the Reply-To (at least on all the servers I've seen);  
that's why many posters use an invalid addy in From and a valid one in 
Reply-To.

�Q�
-- 
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.
     - L. P. Berra, attributed
0
ouroboros
6/20/2001 3:24:00 AM
As pointed out earlier, many of us munge the from field (the field that
spambots typically harvest?) but have a valid email addy in reply to.
If you're going to eliminate the reply to, then we'd either have to:
1.  post a valid email addy in from field and risk harvest by spambots
in this and other NGs.
2.  have a signature file that specifies how to unmunge the from field
to receive valid email replies.

If we do #2, it seems we would be adding more lines to archive than a
one line reply to would generate.  Or am I missing something (totally
possible)?
--  NNG
***  I Hate SPAM (from the can or via e-mail)  ***
Resistance is futi.... ohhhh cookies!!  --MS of Borg

"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1599acfe85062cf4989779@207.71.92.194...
: Hi Ray,
:
: > > The list above proposes to knowingly exclude:
: > >
: > > Reply-To
: >
: > Many people (myself included) munge the From address & put a
: > valid address in Reply-To.  Maybe you could just strip the
: > unwanted X-perimental headers?
:
: Well ... I'm really serious about wanting to clean things up.
: I'll also clean things up similarly when I move the archives to the
: new server.
:
: Given that a "From" header is not optional, but "Reply-To" is
: entirely optional -- and typically redundant -- I am currently
: planning to strip the optional "Reply-To" from posts and leave the
: required "From". I hope that'll be play for you.
:
: --
: _________________________________________________________________
: Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
NoNameGiven
6/20/2001 3:33:00 AM
On or about, Tue 19 Jun 2001 17:34:28 (Local:), "Steve Gibson" captured our 
attention for a moment with the following message:

> ... and any/all others.
> 

(my 105mm worth:)

It was fun while it lasted, I for one have 'abused' the system with *heavy 
headers*, however, it won't be missed by me much.  The value I find in 
enjoying the playground you provide for us Steve is greater than the value 
I find in the sometimes humor, sometimes sig space saving, headers I use.  
For example, my sig may include the artillery quote and/or the Luu Tran 
quote as seen.  The PGP info would also save viewed space when hidden in 
the headers.  I admit when I turn them all it looks awfull ugly up there 
though<g>


-- 

m/s,
RedLeg

"If you don't know where you're going, you'll end up somewhere else."

- Yogi Berra
0
RedLeg
6/20/2001 3:57:00 AM
[I wrote:]
> > Take a second to google before you post.

"Carlene" <l6xso6xcxj5xvlg001@DIEsneakeSPAMMERmail.com> wrote:

> If it wasn't for that smiley face previous, that last order ya barked
there might have had me thinking you over reacted.
>
> Thank goodness for smiley faces!
>
> :)

Indeed.  I guess that line did make me sound a bit miffed.  Sorry :)
0
Ross
6/20/2001 4:11:00 AM
On Tue, 19 Jun 2001 16:21:47 -0700, Steve Gibson <support@grc.com>
wrote:

>
>Ten-Forward ...
>
>You may recall that we briefly flirted with the idea of a "chat" 
>group of some sort.
>
>My plan is to retain "Ten-Forward" as is, but with a seven-day 
>article expiration and *no* long-term archiving.
>
>That solves my problems of endlessly accumulating "chat-style" 
>content while still giving people a place to hang out and "chat", and 
>also retaining the non-real-time benefits of newsgroups.  :)
>
>-- 
>_________________________________________________________________
>Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >

Ahh....An elegant solution to a "knotty" problem as always.
Sounds like the best of both worlds.
Thanks for that Steve.<g>

Cheers Paddy
0
paddybythesea
6/20/2001 4:25:00 AM
Like the plan..wouldn't want to lose ten-forward.  If really
necessary, people can usually save their stuff as rext and archive
their own.  

But do archive those handman's tip gems though<G>

Geek..


On Tue, 19 Jun 2001 16:21:47 -0700, Steve Gibson <support@grc.com>
wrote:

>
>Ten-Forward ...
>
>You may recall that we briefly flirted with the idea of a "chat" 
>group of some sort.
>
>My plan is to retain "Ten-Forward" as is, but with a seven-day 
>article expiration and *no* long-term archiving.
>
>That solves my problems of endlessly accumulating "chat-style" 
>content while still giving people a place to hang out and "chat", and 
>also retaining the non-real-time benefits of newsgroups.  :)
>
>-- 
>_________________________________________________________________
>Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
handyman
6/20/2001 4:44:00 AM
Steve,
Thank you!  I love to read all the groups but I prefer to mostly post in
ten-forward.  When using newsgroups, whether it is just for tech stuff or
not, it is only natural to sort of bond in a way with the people you meet.
I think it is an asset to your newsgroups that a friendly chat sort of area
is provided for just that sort of stuff.  It also keeps it out of the other
groups.
You know it was a real comfort to me, when going through a recent tragedy to
have the caring support of all the friends I have made here at GRC.  Even
lurkers came out to comfort me.  Thank you for providing that Steve.
Archiving is not important in that group at all.  Of course all the other
groups must come first and if 'push comes to shove' then ten-forward should
go before the others.  :-)
~Nanell
0
Nanell
6/20/2001 5:13:00 AM
"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1599acfe85062cf4989779@207.71.92.19
> Given that a "From" header is not optional, but "Reply-To" is
> entirely optional -- and typically redundant -- I am currently
> planning to strip the optional "Reply-To" from posts and leave the
> required "From".

How about ONLY stripping it if it *is* redundant, if Reply To == From.
0
Mike
6/20/2001 5:42:00 AM
"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.159973462b14200e98976f@207.71.92.194...
<snip>
> The list above proposes to knowingly exclude:
<snip>
> X-Newsreader
> X-Mailer

Actually, Steve, could you please leave these in as others have also
suggested?  Now that I'm using Linux's KNode newsreader (although not for
this article :)) I have the following headers always visible:
Newsgroups: (to check for cross-posting)
Followup-To:
NNTP-Posting-Host:
X-Newsreader:
X-Mailer:
User-Agent:
(usually, only 1 of the previous 3 will be present)
0
Mike
6/20/2001 5:48:00 AM
In message <MPG.1599ae4ed4bc354398977b@207.71.92.194>, Steve Gibson 
<support@grc.com> writes
>
>> Do that and e-mail sent to me in response to a message will
>> go in my spam bin. (Assuming it gets answered at all using
>> the From: address).  For some people it will be rejected out
>> of hand.
>
>I don't understand John.  If you have a valid address in "From" that
>will be used.  "From" is required but "Reply-To" is not.
>
However, if 'Reply-to: ' *is* there, that is because the poster is 
taking sensible security and privacy precautions, which I thought you 
were advocating.

There may be many who would never post again on your groups if you go 
ahead with this wacky idea.  What happens if Google gets hold of some 
articles and puts them up, even for a short while?  Bingo - you will 
have helped contributors here have their e-mail address forever on the 
spam-harvesters lists.

Sorry Steve, removing 'Reply-to: ' is a Bad Thing, and would be 
considered very rude by many.

Also:

The 'Sender: ' field is essential for some as well.  There are many ISPs 
(I use a couple of them) who require that any e-mail passed through 
their system must have that account's complete and true e-mail address, 
regardless what is in the 'From: ' and 'Reply-to: ' fields.  Although 
this does not hold true for news, many posters use the same details for 
both news and e-mail.  Requiring them to change might confuse them even 
more.

Please think very carefully before removing any headers apart from the 
'X-*: ' ones, they all have essential uses for some.

Just my strongly-felt GBP20.

-- 
Jim (Cruncher) Crowther                      "It's MY computer"
*               It's our turn to help pchelp                  *
*                  <http://pchelpers.org>                     *
*    <http://www.cozmikshirts.co.uk/rooms/pchelpers.shtml>    *
0
Jim
6/20/2001 6:30:00 AM
On Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:24:48 -0700, Steve Gibson <support@grc.com>
wrote:

>Gang,
>
>	I want to strip all inbound postings of
>	all non-standard and non-required headers.
>

You'll get no argument from me Steve. I've trimmed back my bloated
custom headers to just  X-Cecil-ID:   :o)  I'd still like to keep
"noregrets" and have stuck it in the Organization field.  

Cheers, Di�ne  
0
Darny
6/20/2001 7:20:00 AM
On Tue, 19 Jun 2001 at 19:35:05, Steve Gibson wrote in grc.news.feedback
(Reference: <MPG.1599abb8f90bf0d1989778@207.71.92.194>)


>Actually ... with the power I have now, we could *PREVENT* anything 
>like that by, for example, *requiring* that anyone posting here first 
>get a Cecil-ID.  We don't now of course, but we could.

That sounds an excellent idea. There is one problem I see and that is 
the difficulty newcomers may have in making the first posting. May I 
suggest a frequent announcement of this in all groups.

Another idea occurs. If a posting is received without a Cecil-ID, send 
an autoreply telling them the requirement. That won't work for anonymous 
posters or if the Reply-To: address is munged of course.
-- 
John Underwood
Use the Reply To: address for the next 30 days
After that write to john@the-underwoods.org.uk
Do not send anything to the From: address
0
John
6/20/2001 8:31:00 AM
On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 at 00:42:17, Mike Meyer wrote in grc.news.feedback
(Reference: <9gpd16$2p54$1@news.grc.com>)


>
>"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
>news:MPG.1599acfe85062cf4989779@207.71.92.19
>> Given that a "From" header is not optional, but "Reply-To" is
>> entirely optional -- and typically redundant -- I am currently
>> planning to strip the optional "Reply-To" from posts and leave the
>> required "From".
>
>How about ONLY stripping it if it *is* redundant, if Reply To == From.
>
>

Does a good news/mail program include a Reply To: header if it is the 
same as the From:?

-- 
John Underwood
Use the Reply To: address for the next 30 days
After that write to john@the-underwoods.org.uk
Do not send anything to the From: address
0
John
6/20/2001 8:33:00 AM
Le mar., 19 juin 2001 23:30:00 GMT,
Jim Crowther <Don't.use.Lockdown@any.price> a �crit
dans grc.news.feedback�:


> In message <MPG.159973462b14200e98976f@207.71.92.194>, Steve Gibson 
> <support@grc.com> writes
>>The list above proposes to knowingly exclude:
>>
>>Cancel-Key
>>X-Newsreader
>>X-Mailer
>>X-Cancelled-By
>>X-Canceled-By
>>Content-Disposition
>>Content-Base
> 
> Agreed to the above.
> 
>>Content-Type
>>Reply-To
>>Sender
> 
> Totally disagree with the above three.  They are essential headers to 
> some folks.

Seconded. I can't work properly without the charset, which is given in 
Content-Type.



-- 
  ___________   
_/ _ \_`_`_`_)  Serge PACCALIN -- sp ad mailclub.net
 \  \_L_)   Il faut donc que les hommes commencent
   -'(__)   par n'�tre pas fanatiques pour m�riter
_/___(_)    la tol�rance. -- Voltaire, 1763

  
0
Serge
6/20/2001 8:44:00 AM
On Tue, 19 Jun 2001 at 19:46:06, Steve Gibson wrote in grc.news.feedback
(Reference: <MPG.1599ae4ed4bc354398977b@207.71.92.194>)


>
>> Do that and e-mail sent to me in response to a message will
>> go in my spam bin. (Assuming it gets answered at all using
>> the From: address).  For some people it will be rejected out
>> of hand.
>
>I don't understand John.  If you have a valid address in "From" that
>will be used.  "From" is required but "Reply-To" is not.
>
The RFCs say that if a Reply-To: address is present the reply or 
follow-up should be sent to it, at least that is what I understand the 
RFCs to say. In my case, I happen to use a valid From: address and mail 
addressed to me arrives and is routed into a spam mailbox to which I 
turn my attention periodically to weed out anything which has been sent 
there incorrectly and to complain about the spam. Mail sent to my 
Reply-To: address gets dealt with immediately, not a week later.

That is how I do it. Many of the people I know use a valid address but 
mail sent to it does not arrive. The address is a general purpose 
dustbin (Demon customers are allowed to use anything@nospam.demon.co.uk, 
for example, and many do). Others use a valid address of  their own but 
reject all mail sent to it. In neither case will they ever see the mail 
and in some cases the author will not know that the mail has not 
arrived.

I have changed the From: address on all my postings to GRC groups. It is 
only used for these groups and it only appears in the From: header. 
Readers are specifically asked in the signature not to write to it. We 
shall see if your groups are harvested for spam addresses. If so, the 
Reply-To: address is not redundant.

In any case, Steve, surely it is I who chooses the address to which I 
wish people to write to me? The inclusion of a Reply-To: address is not 
mandatory but if it is included, its use for replies is.

There are many circumstances in which people might wish to use a 
different reply address from the From: address - an example might be 
when someone is posting from work but wants any follow-up to be sent to 
their home system. Whether they do this is, surely, up to them and 
intending respondents should, surely, have the opportunity to write in 
accordance of the person to whom they are writing, especially as the 
RFCs make provision for them doing so.
-- 
John Underwood
Use the Reply To: address for the next 30 days
After that write to john@the-underwoods.org.uk
Do not send anything to the From: address
0
John
6/20/2001 8:47:00 AM
In article <MPG.1599744cd40ec6d5989771@207.71.92.194>, support@grc.com 
mightily proclaimed...
> 
> Hey ... that's kind of a cool idea!
> 
> I was just thinking of leaving it wherever it appears -- as we do 
> know.  Since it can appear anywhere.
> 
> But grabbing it out of an existing header and relocating it into a 
> formal "X-Cecil-ID:" header is *VERY* cool!  <<grin>>
> 
> 

Personally I'd find that method better for one reason...

As newreaders such as gravity have are no header 
options for individual news servers (beyond name, organisation, e-mail 
etc) - you'ld have to put it in the Global Options - so you'd be posting 
your X-Cecil-ID: <your cecil-id> to every other news server you post to - 
advertising yourself as a GRC news user where people can find your real 
name and less throw-away e-mail address. 

I'm quite certain that a few people are a bit more anonymous when posting 
to the more public newsgroups! 

In my case I've just started using my proper e-mail address on these 
groups but elsewhere use a hotmail account - though I've not gone as far 
as changing my name there yet!

-- 
mal franks
remove the yellow goop to e-mail me (if it's there)

"We told you we had living, breathing monstrosities. You laughed at them, 
yet but for the accident of birth, you might be even as they are! They 
did not ask to be brought into the world, but into the world they came. 
Their code is law unto themselves. Offend one and you offend them all!"
FREAKS (1932)
0
mal
6/20/2001 9:08:00 AM
In article <MPG.1599abb8f90bf0d1989778@207.71.92.194>, support@grc.com 
mightily proclaimed...
> 
> > Ah, maybe I see what you're suggesting.  If a spambot or
> > somesuch were to attack this these group, it would be
> > helpful to have *all* the headers it sent, in order to
> > track it down, right?  I'd think in that case Steve 
> > could set up his server to log them.
> 
> Actually ... with the power I have now, we could *PREVENT* anything 
> like that by, for example, *requiring* that anyone posting here first 
> get a Cecil-ID.  We don't now of course, but we could.
> 
> 

In that event though - wouldn't it be more or less the same as setting up 
an account for access to this news server - just without a username and 
password?

-- 
mal franks
remove the yellow goop to e-mail me (if it's there)

"We told you we had living, breathing monstrosities. You laughed at them, 
yet but for the accident of birth, you might be even as they are! They 
did not ask to be brought into the world, but into the world they came. 
Their code is law unto themselves. Offend one and you offend them all!"
FREAKS (1932)
0
mal
6/20/2001 9:12:00 AM
Now THAT'S the ticket! You, NoNameGiven, and �Q� get the prize! (please don't ask me what that is, I have no clue).

Now if only Steve will be further reading this thread tomorrow.

As I recall, when some nasty harvesters hit back in Jan/Feb, Steve was very busy, and apparently did not get full perspective of just how many people's addresses were harvested (had begun receiving the same spam as other group members all at the same time, to email addys unique to these forums).

While it is not mine to divine whether or not Steve weighed the spammer issue in this (we hope) "pending" decision, this groupie personally wonders at the degree to which those incidents of recent months, were factored in shaping what appears to be a stance from which there's little hope he might now 
budge.



In article <9gpd16$2p54$1@news.grc.com>, mag7mike@SPAMLESShotmail.com says...
> 
> "Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1599acfe85062cf4989779@207.71.92.19
> > Given that a "From" header is not optional, but "Reply-To" is
> > entirely optional -- and typically redundant -- I am currently
> > planning to strip the optional "Reply-To" from posts and leave the
> > required "From".
> 
> How about ONLY stripping it if it *is* redundant, if Reply To == From.
> 
> 
> 
0
Carlene
6/20/2001 9:34:00 AM
Nothing that a good night's sleep won't cure Steve!  :)


In article <MPG.1599ae4ed4bc354398977b@207.71.92.194>, support@grc.com says...
> I don't understand John.  If you have a valid address in "From" that 
> will be used.  "From" is required but "Reply-To" is not.
> 
>
0
Carlene
6/20/2001 9:45:00 AM
On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:47:30 +0100, John Underwood enlightened us all
with:

>The RFCs say that if a Reply-To: address is present the reply or 
>follow-up should be sent to it, at least that is what I understand the 
>RFCs to say. In my case, I happen to use a valid From: address and mail 
>addressed to me arrives and is routed into a spam mailbox to which I 
>turn my attention periodically to weed out anything which has been sent 
>there incorrectly and to complain about the spam. Mail sent to my 
>Reply-To: address gets dealt with immediately, not a week later.

My From: address is also valid --- but mail for it gets rejected by my
smtp server.  If Steve cannot see the necessity for leaving the Reply-to
header alone, then he is just not in touch with reality.

If the intention is to save space -- I would have thought that he would
be better served by embarking on a crusade to teach people how to edit
properly. IOW, how many lines are 'wasted' on reply-to headers compared
with a post which has a 3 line reply and the whole of the previous post
tagged on after it?

And how on earth can a 'Reply-to' header be regarded as non-standard?

-- 
Mitch
0
Mitch
6/20/2001 9:56:00 AM
Le mar., 19 juin 2001 22:13:23 GMT,
ouroboros@apexmail.com (�Q�) a �crit
dans grc.news.feedback�:

> I'll try to remember to strip mine before posting here, at least
> until you get automated header- stripping in place.

Since you're using Xnews, that can be done automatically. Remove your 
X-Face from your Xnews setup and create a section at the top of your 
groups.ini file that reads:

[~^grc]
CustomHeadersCount=1
CustomHeader1=*X-Face: <your data here>
continue=1

That will include the X-Face header in every newsgroup that does NOT 
start with "grc".

Enjoy.

-- 
  ___________   
_/ _ \_`_`_`_)  Serge PACCALIN -- sp ad mailclub.net
 \  \_L_)   Il faut donc que les hommes commencent
   -'(__)   par n'�tre pas fanatiques pour m�riter
_/___(_)    la tol�rance. -- Voltaire, 1763

  
0
Serge
6/20/2001 10:10:00 AM
Jim Crowther wrote:

>In message <MPG.159973462b14200e98976f@207.71.92.194>, Steve Gibson 
><support@grc.com> writes
>>The list above proposes to knowingly exclude:
>>
>>Cancel-Key
>>X-Newsreader
>>X-Mailer
>>X-Cancelled-By
>>X-Canceled-By
>>Content-Disposition
>>Content-Base
>
>Agreed to the above.
>
I've thought about this some more, and now am very sure you should not 
remove any standard headers.  None of us know which ones might be 
considered vital for the proper operation of some newsreader somewhere.

By all means remove any non-standard headers.

-- 
Jim Crowther                                 "It's MY computer"
---------*          Lockdown scam Law Suit         *-----------
***********      It's our turn to help pchelp     *************
---------*           http://pchelpers.org          *-----------
0
Jim
6/20/2001 10:15:00 AM
"Carlene" <l6xso6xcxj5xvlg001@DIEsneakeSPAMMERmail.com> wrote in message news:MPG.159a0e0724d737449896a5@207.71.92.194...
> ...
> In article <9gpd16$2p54$1@news.grc.com>, mag7mike@SPAMLESShotmail.com says...
> > ...
> > How about ONLY stripping ["Reply-To:"]
> > if it *is* redundant, if Reply To == From.

An *excellent* idea, methinks:

Strip "Reply-To:" whenever it equals "From:"
but keep it whenever they are different.
0
32123
6/20/2001 11:16:00 AM
In article news:3B2FE07C.7486C00D@cox-internet.com, Hermital
<hermital@cox-internet.com> kicked in with: 

> I'm with Steve:  I can easily do without it.

So can I, but I like the fun of it. Am I bad now? <grin>

-- 
Fungus (aka Urgje / BomBom the Magnificent)
posting through XNews
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
PGP Key ID:0xDDD4F1E2
[urgje at dds dot nl]
0
Fungus
6/20/2001 11:21:00 AM
In article news:9goo8b$23ko$1@news.grc.com, "Ross Presser"
<ross.presser@verizon.net> kicked in with: 

> Take a second to google before you post.

Yes master! I stand corrected! <grin>

-- 
Fungus (aka Urgje / BomBom the Magnificent)
posting through XNews
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
PGP Key ID:0xDDD4F1E2
[urgje at dds dot nl]
0
Fungus
6/20/2001 11:23:00 AM
Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
> > Ah, maybe I see what you're suggesting.  If a spambot or
> > somesuch were to attack this these group, it would be
> > helpful to have *all* the headers it sent, in order to
> > track it down, right?  I'd think in that case Steve
> > could set up his server to log them.
> 
> Actually ... with the power I have now, we could *PREVENT* anything
> like that by, for example, *requiring* that anyone posting here first
> get a Cecil-ID.  We don't now of course, but we could.
> 

If/When that ever happens then im outa here.

-- 
_____________________________________________________________________
 _ __  __                        Remember the Legend - Dale Earnhardt
| '  \/ _|
|_|_|_\__|                                      http://pchelpers.org/

--+ The only constant in the universe is change +--
--+       Always stop and smell the roses       +--

<<==-- Drain the WATER from my email to reply --==>>
0
mc
6/20/2001 11:23:00 AM
Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
> Hi Ray,
> 
> > > The list above proposes to knowingly exclude:
> > >
> > > Reply-To
> >
> > Many people (myself included) munge the From address & put a
> > valid address in Reply-To.  Maybe you could just strip the
> > unwanted X-perimental headers?
> 
> Well ... I'm really serious about wanting to clean things up.
> I'll also clean things up similarly when I move the archives to the
> new server.
> 
> Given that a "From" header is not optional, but "Reply-To" is
> entirely optional -- and typically redundant -- I am currently
> planning to strip the optional "Reply-To" from posts and leave the
> required "From". I hope that'll be play for you.

No that wont be acceptable as both myself and at least one other has
explained. Many people put an invalid address in From: and a slightly
munged address in Reply-To:. If you remove Reply-to then nobody will be
able to respond personally to those persons.

I believe there are also situations where a user's isp requires the from
address to match the person's isp address, but the person wants incoming
mail to go to a web-based account for access from anywhere. This to
would be foiled by removing the Reply-To field.

-- 
_____________________________________________________________________
 _ __  __                        Remember the Legend - Dale Earnhardt
| '  \/ _|
|_|_|_\__|                                      http://pchelpers.org/

--+ The only constant in the universe is change +--
--+       Always stop and smell the roses       +--

<<==-- Drain the WATER from my email to reply --==>>
0
mc
6/20/2001 11:27:00 AM
Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
> Hi mc,
> 
> >
> > Please retain Reply-To. I see many cases where the From address is bogus
> > but the Reply-To address is accurate, or at least decypherable. Removing
> > it would make it impossible for someone to reply personally to these
> > persons.
> >
> 
> Since "From" is required, but "Reply-To" is optional ... and since
> their content is redundant, I can't see keeping them both when the
> goal is to clean things up and not retain unneeded headers.
> 

The two fields serve different distinct purposes.

-- 
_____________________________________________________________________
 _ __  __                        Remember the Legend - Dale Earnhardt
| '  \/ _|
|_|_|_\__|                                      http://pchelpers.org/

--+ The only constant in the universe is change +--
--+       Always stop and smell the roses       +--

<<==-- Drain the WATER from my email to reply --==>>
0
mc
6/20/2001 11:27:00 AM
Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
> > Do that and e-mail sent to me in response to a message will
> > go in my spam bin. (Assuming it gets answered at all using
> > the From: address).  For some people it will be rejected out
> > of hand.
> 
> I don't understand John.  If you have a valid address in "From" that
> will be used.  "From" is required but "Reply-To" is not.

Wrong. afaik Reply-To is always use when available for replying to
messages. From is only used for replying when reply-to is not available.
See other posts.

-- 
_____________________________________________________________________
 _ __  __                        Remember the Legend - Dale Earnhardt
| '  \/ _|
|_|_|_\__|                                      http://pchelpers.org/

--+ The only constant in the universe is change +--
--+       Always stop and smell the roses       +--

<<==-- Drain the WATER from my email to reply --==>>
0
mc
6/20/2001 11:29:00 AM
Mike Meyer wrote:
> 
> "Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1599acfe85062cf4989779@207.71.92.19
> > Given that a "From" header is not optional, but "Reply-To" is
> > entirely optional -- and typically redundant -- I am currently
> > planning to strip the optional "Reply-To" from posts and leave the
> > required "From".
> 
> How about ONLY stripping it if it *is* redundant, if Reply To == From.

Hey, nice idea Mike. I like it.

-- 
_____________________________________________________________________
 _ __  __                        Remember the Legend - Dale Earnhardt
| '  \/ _|
|_|_|_\__|                                      http://pchelpers.org/

--+ The only constant in the universe is change +--
--+       Always stop and smell the roses       +--

<<==-- Drain the WATER from my email to reply --==>>
0
mc
6/20/2001 11:33:00 AM
Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
> The list above proposes to knowingly exclude:
> 
> Reply-To

Personally I frequently use the Reply-To field to list a second,
alternate address in the event that I am unreachable at the first. Both
will actually point at the same mailbox, but due to the miracles of .com
acquisitions, they have different domain names.

For reasons I'm not sure of, my geocities.com bounces all mail from
Hotmail. This requires that such a party use my yahoo.com address.

I propose that the Reply-To: header be stripped only if it matches the
From: address (in which case it is obviously redundant).

Mal-2
-- 
Here's to woman! Would that we could fall into her arms without
falling into her hands.               -- Ambrose Bierce, 'Bitter Bierce'
Orquesta Guayao Online http://www.geocities.com/orqguayao * ICQ:11401527
0
Malaclypse
6/20/2001 11:36:00 AM
"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.159962fa61f07df98976c@207.71.92.194...
> I want to strip all inbound postings of
> all non-standard and non-required headers.

hi steve,

i'd just like to add my 2c too :)

plz keep Reply-To for ALL the reasons as stated by the others and i also
LOVE the idea of finding and moving the cecil-id to its own header :)

regards,
KArl
0
Karl
6/20/2001 11:46:00 AM
"Karl Tremain" <x@x.x> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:9gq2cq$a3f$1@news.grc.com...

> plz keep Reply-To for ALL the reasons as stated by the others and i also
> LOVE the idea of finding and moving the cecil-id to its own header :)

Hi Karl,

are you using a Cecil ID and if yes, do you see it at the moment? Looks to
me as if, since today, mine is stripped from the header (I have it in my
Organization field). Yesterday I tested Cecil and it worked just fine. Today
"not authorized", which is not surprising, as there is no more Cecil ID in
my posts.

Am I missing something? ( Maybe not enough coffee yet).

HiMan
0
HiMan
6/20/2001 12:11:00 PM
"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:MPG.159962fa61f07df98976c@207.71.92.194...

Hi Steve,

looks to me, as if since today, my Cecil ID gets stripped from the header.
W98, OE 5.5SP1. I use the OE "hack" to put "X-No-Archive: Yes" in all
newsgroup posts. This cannot be changed for a single account.

I also have my Cecil ID in the Organization field, as there is not much
other possibility with OE. Below I paste in the headers of my posts.

1) Header of a new post (today):
From: "HiMan" <Please@ReplyInForum.invalid>
Newsgroups: grc.news.feedback
Subject: Re: The Removal of non-standard headers ...
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:11:27 +0200
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <9gq3ri$bkr$1@news.grc.com>
References: <MPG.159962fa61f07df98976c@207.71.92.194>
<9gq2cq$a3f$1@news.grc.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pd95231f1.dip.t-dialin.net
X-Trace: news.grc.com 993039026 11931 217.82.49.241 (20 Jun 2001 12:10:26
GMT)
X-Complaints-To: support@grc.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:10:26 +0000 (UTC)
Archive: no
X-Priority: 3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Xref: news.grc.com grc.news.feedback:12320

2) Header of one of my older posts:
From: "HiMan" <Please@ReplyInForum.invalid>
References: <yb0ydAz6AHA.1520@colossus.SMG>
Subject: Re: Master Boot Record
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 13:13:37 +0200
Lines: 22
X-No-Archive: Yes <nmu5d01ifkuuqxrisee10axkb0renfvf>
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200
Message-ID: <VedjPY16AHA.2244@colossus.SMG>
Newsgroups: grc.techtalk
Path: colossus.SMG
Xref: colossus.SMG grc.techtalk:12437
NNTP-Posting-Host: p3E991351.dip.t-dialin.net 62.153.19.81

So it looks to me, as if my header has "grown" with the new system, but I
have lost the Cecil function.

FWIW I had no problem to Cecil posts yesterday, so maybe this is all still
"in the works"?

Regards

HiMan
0
HiMan
6/20/2001 12:32:00 PM

"�Q�" wrote:
> 
> Posted by Jim Crowther, in article news:PRzQKBYMl+L7EA9X@grc.com.ngs:
> 
> > In message <Xns90C5C058619C7itsmeitsQ@127.0.0.1>, ›Q‹
> > <ouroboros@apexmail.com.invalid> writes
> >>Posted by Some dull guy, in article news:9gonr5$2341$1@news.grc.com:
> >>
> >>[about lack of headers identifying software used]
> >>> In class today, we explored a novel idea for gaining information:
> >>>
> >>> Ask them :-)
> >>
> >>I agree.  That info can be gotten when needed, without having it
> >>attached to every single post.
> >>
> > Example please of how that would work?
> 
> Perhaps I'm being naive.  Poster A asks a question.  Poster B replies 'It
> would help me to answer if I knew what newsreader you use.'  Poster A
> answers.  Thread continues.


Real efficient! Three posts instead of one to save one header.


> > Think about trolls...
> 
> You've lost me.  Is it important to know what posting agent trolls are
> using?
> 
> Ah, maybe I see what you're suggesting.  If a spambot or somesuch were to
> attack this these group, it would be helpful to have *all* the headers it
> sent, in order to track it down, right?  I'd think in that case Steve
> could set up his server to log them.
> 
> �Q�
> --
> Philosophy is useless;
> Theology is worse.
>      - M. Knopfler, 'Industrial Disease'
0
Smith
6/20/2001 1:08:00 PM
"Smith" <ask'em@bellsouth.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3B30A04A.C861A0CD@bellsouth.net...

> Real efficient! Three posts instead of one to save one header.

This is a valid argument. It could even create more posts, as people new to
posting, sometimes also do not know, where to change any settings, like
UUencode or Mime. As it is now, one can sometime solve it with one answer.
Like: "I see you are using Newsreader XY, your setting is XY, go to ....
change a to b, or whatever.

With all that info stripped. First you have to ask back, which newsreader
and which settings. Possible answer: newsreader XY, what settings are you
talking about, and so on ...

HiMan
0
HiMan
6/20/2001 1:17:00 PM
Steve Gibson <support@grc.com> was seen standing on a soap 
box, declaiming in news:MPG.159975befceb9c90989773@
207.71.92.194:

> Nanell.
> 
>> Good idea Steve!  I have a very small hard drive and a 
naughty
>> computer.  I don't like to download unnecessary stuff!  
:-) 
> 
> Hey ... I was so busy thinking/worrying about the server 
that I 
> didn't even pause to consider that ALL OF YOU GUYS are 
largely 
> duplicating what's here as well.
> 
> You're right, that's huge!
> 

I don't, I just read it from the server and unless I 
specifically want to save something, that's it.  

-- 
Keith T Williams PGP Key ID:0xD2D14F71
The world will always be governed by self-interest; we 
should not try and stop this--we should try and make the 
self-interest of cads a little more coincident with that of 
decent people. 

- Samual Butler
0
Keith
6/20/2001 1:39:00 PM
Posted by Serge Paccalin, in article
news:Xns90C67C442F6D8canttouchthis@207.71.92.194: 

> Le mar., 19 juin 2001 22:13:23 GMT,
> ouroboros@apexmail.com (�Q�) a �crit
> dans grc.news.feedback�:
> 
>> I'll try to remember to strip mine before posting here, at least
>> until you get automated header- stripping in place.
> 
> Since you're using Xnews, that can be done automatically. Remove your
> X-Face from your Xnews setup and create a section at the top of your 
> groups.ini file that reads:
> 
> [~^grc]
> CustomHeadersCount=1
> CustomHeader1=*X-Face: <your data here>
> continue=1

Thanks!  I think I have a mental block about using ~, and it probably 
never would have occurred to me. 

�Q�
-- 
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
0
ouroboros
6/20/2001 1:59:00 PM
Posted by mc, in article news:3B3087CA.D39400D6@centurytel.net:

>> Actually ... with the power I have now, we could *PREVENT* anything
>> like that by, for example, *requiring* that anyone posting here first
>> get a Cecil-ID.  We don't now of course, but we could.
>> 
> If/When that ever happens then im outa here.

Granting posting permission only after authentication would be bound to 
drive some people away.  But imo the benefits would outweigh the losses.  

�Q�
-- 
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.
     - L. P. Berra, attributed
0
ouroboros
6/20/2001 2:15:00 PM
Posted by HiMan, in article news:9gq53f$csv$1@news.grc.com:

> looks to me, as if since today, my Cecil ID gets stripped from the
> header. W98, OE 5.5SP1. I use the OE "hack" to put "X-No-Archive:
> Yes" in all newsgroup posts. This cannot be changed for a single
> account. 

It a bit ironic that a hack intended to force a Micro$oft product to give 
very basic functionality is now a problem, denying needed functionality.  
*And* it may force Steve, whom it was intended to help I guess, to do 
more work.

[old header before Steve put his own XNA:Y in place]
> X-No-Archive: Yes <nmu5d01ifkuuqxrisee10axkb0renfvf>

I'm curious - do you know if Google honored this header in USENET posts?  
It's not quite the header they promised to honor.  I'd guess they parse 
it ok and wouldn't display the message, but I wonder.

�Q�
-- 
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.
     - L. P. Berra, attributed
0
ouroboros
6/20/2001 2:30:00 PM
Posted by Smith, in article news:3B30A04A.C861A0CD@bellsouth.net:

>> Perhaps I'm being naive.  Poster A asks a question.  Poster B
>> replies 'It would help me to answer if I knew what newsreader you
>> use.'  Poster A answers.  Thread continues. 
> 
> Real efficient! Three posts instead of one to save one header.

Yes, efficient.  Saves tens of thousands of headers, one for each post.

�Q�
-- 
When a subject becomes totally obsolete we make it a required course.
     - P. Drucker
0
ouroboros
6/20/2001 2:31:00 PM
The links to .jpg's in the sig is common enough nowadays with forums. 
In case it's not obvious to anyone, I'll point out that people can try 
to find out your IP address.

If I participate in a mess board, I don't have any idea of the IP 
address of the other posters (unless I own the board or have 
sufficient privileges). However, if your browser links to my server to 
get my image, presto. 

I don't like it on the principle that it's an extra bit of useless 
glitz. But, I understand that some people do like it, so that's okay.

> > So what's the intent?  To sort of have a personal "logo" or "icon" 
> > that accompanies every post??
> 
> Yes.  It was developed as a way for posters to include images, usually of 
> themselves, with each post.  Today, most X-Faces I see are not images of 
> the posters, but logos or icons as you say.
> 
> Now that there's a WWW, they are a bit obsolete.  If anyone wants 
> everybody to know he looks like, a link to a jpeg in the sig would do.
> 
0
Miss
6/20/2001 2:51:00 PM
InTheQuestForSavingSpaceOnStevesServerIHaveDecidedToVoluntarilyRemoveAllS
pacesAndPunctuationInAdditionToThisCertainWordsWillBeSpeltTheUSWayEGColou
rWillNowBeColorFinallyIWillUseNoMoreSigsMalFranks;)
0
mal
6/20/2001 2:55:00 PM
I didn't see a way to do it for the whole server either, but you can 
set up custom headers on a newsgroup by newsgroup basis.

Newsgroup/Properties/Overrides: Override Custom Headers

> As newreaders such as gravity have are no header 
> options for individual news servers (beyond name, organisation, e-mail 
> etc) - you'ld have to put it in the Global Options - so you'd be posting 
> your X-Cecil-ID: <your cecil-id> to every other news server you post to - 
> advertising yourself as a GRC news user where people can find your real 
> name and less throw-away e-mail address. 
0
Miss
6/20/2001 3:10:00 PM
Hi.

I'm curious. Was there a story behind the story when you asked what we 
thought of trying IRC? Were you looking for a way to further your 
investigations? That would make sense.

The thing that seems strange, in retrospect, is that the suggestion 
came just at the time when you were discovering how vulnerable and 
unruly the IRC gangland can be. But it wasn't presented, at the time, 
as a newly discovered (I suppose, for you) area of vulnerability and 
exploits that we need to study and be aware of. Instead, it was 
presented as a new (for GRC) way of communicating that we might find 
fun.

Steve, I believe you are very honest, and have a high ethical 
standard. If not, I wouldn't be here. I just can't help but wonder if 
you had some other ideas ringing through the back of your mind when 
you made that suggestion. 
0
Miss
6/20/2001 3:50:00 PM
In article <MPG.159adb5e752ee8be989686@news.grc.com>, 
miss_understanding@psyon.org mightily proclaimed...
> I didn't see a way to do it for the whole server either, but you can 
> set up custom headers on a newsgroup by newsgroup basis.
> 
> Newsgroup/Properties/Overrides: Override Custom Headers
>  
> 

Thanks - just a little more time involved in going to each group - but 
that would be better than nothing if he decides to implement the X-Cecil-
ID: feature

-- 
mal franks
remove the yellow goop to e-mail me (if it's there)
0
mal
6/20/2001 3:59:00 PM
But think about it this way: how many times would you really ASK someone
what newsreader they are using? Certainly not EVERY post. Certainly not even
1/3 of all posts. So the net effect is a smaller archive and smaller posts.

"Smith" <ask'em@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3B30A04A.C861A0CD@bellsouth.net...
> > Perhaps I'm being naive.  Poster A asks a question.  Poster B replies
'It
> > would help me to answer if I knew what newsreader you use.'  Poster A
> > answers.  Thread continues.
>
>
> Real efficient! Three posts instead of one to save one header.
>
>
0
Some
6/20/2001 4:18:00 PM
ithinkthatsagoodidea
"mal franks" <mal.franks@btintercustardnet.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.159ac9c93943dfb198969d@207.71.92.194...
> InTheQuestForSavingSpaceOnStevesServerIHaveDecidedToVoluntarilyRemoveAllS
> pacesAndPunctuationInAdditionToThisCertainWordsWillBeSpeltTheUSWayEGColou
> rWillNowBeColorFinallyIWillUseNoMoreSigsMalFranks;)
0
Some
6/20/2001 4:32:00 PM
Some Dull Guy wrote:

>But think about it this way: how many times would you really ASK 
>someone what newsreader they are using?

I've never had to ask, the information has always been there.

Also, if there's a troll, say, it is part of their 'signature' that 
helps identify them.

I have no worries about Steve adding to the features available, but huge 
misgivings about having standard features taken away.

If he *really* wants to save some space, then he should state, even more 
strongly than he does at the moment, that folk should SNIP.

-- 
Jim Crowther                                 "It's MY computer"
---------*          Lockdown scam Law Suit         *-----------
***********      It's our turn to help pchelp     *************
---------*           http://pchelpers.org          *-----------
0
Jim
6/20/2001 4:43:00 PM
Q said:
> You've lost me.  Is it important to know what posting 
> agent trolls are using?

> Ah, maybe I see what you're suggesting.  
> If a spambot or somesuch were to 
> attack this these group, 
> it would be helpful to have *all* the headers it 
> sent, in order to track it down, right?  I'd think in that case Steve 
> could set up his server to log them.

to which Steve replied:

> Actually ... with the power I have now, we could *PREVENT* anything 
> like that by, for example, *requiring* that anyone posting here first 
> get a Cecil-ID.  We don't now of course, but we could.

Miss Understanding wonders:

Is this addressing the "spambot" idea alone, or also the troll idea?
I can easily see how requiring a UserID can prevent (inhibit) bots, 
but not trolls. Do you mean that I can't use Anonymizer when getting 
my Cecil-ID? Or that somehow a person can't create a few disposable 
Cecil-IDs for trolling?

The truly malicious will always find a way around any barriers that 
anyone chooses to impose. 

About trolling in general (because it has been a problem here, on 
occasion), isn't the conventional wisdom just to starve them to death? 
Unfortunately that seems to be almost impossible for some to do. 
0
Miss
6/20/2001 4:51:00 PM
Some Dull Guy wrote:
>"mal franks" <mal.franks@btintercustardnet.com> wrote in message
>news:MPG.159ac9c93943dfb198969d@207.71.92.194...
>> InTheQuestForSavingSpaceOnStevesServerIHaveDecidedToVoluntarilyRemoveAllS
>> paces
[]
>ithinkthatsagoodidea
shortattributionsandsnippingalotisevenbetter!
-- 
jc min.sig
0
Jim
6/20/2001 4:52:00 PM
I'm with you on this one Steve ... this is a news group not a web site.
lets keep it down to the news and strip out anything you don't think
contributes to that!

MikeD

"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.159973e64e3d753b989770@207.71.92.194...
>
> >
> > But I guess you don't like it . . . <grin>
> >
>
> I feel about that the same way I'd feel about HTML content in these
> groups ... which is the way I feel about HTML in eMail.  :)
>
> --
> _________________________________________________________________
> Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
miked
6/20/2001 4:57:00 PM
> Well ... I'm really serious about wanting to clean things up.
> I'll also clean things up similarly when I move the archives to the 
> new server.

It sounds like you're in "byte shaving" mode. I'm not knocking it. 
Certainly there are a lot of crazy headers out there. I just wonder 
how much incremental gain you get for each byte that you trim off of a 
post. I suppose you don't want the effectiveness of the solution to 
impair its usefulness.
0
Miss
6/20/2001 5:08:00 PM
> If Steve cannot see the necessity for leaving the Reply-to
> header alone, then he is just not in touch with reality.
 
Possibly he doesn't spend as much time on the newsgroups and "in the 
wild" as some of us. Or perhaps he has found his own solution to these 
problems (which we would all like to hear).

> If the intention is to save space -- I would have thought that he would
> be better served by embarking on a crusade to teach people how to edit
> properly. 

Here here. 
0
Miss
6/20/2001 5:42:00 PM
In article <MPG.1599ae4ed4bc354398977b@207.71.92.194>, support@grc.com says...
> 
> > Do that and e-mail sent to me in response to a message will
> > go in my spam bin. (Assuming it gets answered at all using
> > the From: address).  For some people it will be rejected out
> > of hand.
> 
> I don't understand John.  If you have a valid address in "From" that 
> will be used.  "From" is required but "Reply-To" is not.
> 


Steve,

I cannot see how removing the Reply-To will save ANY space.
If you ban the header I will need to include my real address
in an ADDED signature line, (yes some folks are kind enough to make
contact me privately with support or a head bang <g>)
 
As others that use Reply-To such as myself have said, the "From"
is munged and invalid, the "Reply-To" is real.  The default for mail
replies is to use the "Reply-To" if available a transparent
process for beginners to email.

Your idea appears to offer no advantage for space saving BUT forces
corresponence by copy & paste rather than just hitting reply, or
worse edit "ash at privacy dot ukf dot net"
I've had my headers/body harvested sufficiently to know that I will
never put my real email in "Reply" and that I will need to add
"ash at privacy dot ukf dot net" to the body to prevent harvesting
of the message body.

Please reconsider your thoughts.

Ash
 
0
Ash
6/20/2001 6:07:00 PM
"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.159962fa61f07df98976c@207.71.92.194...
> Gang,
>
> I want to strip all inbound postings of
> all non-standard and non-required headers.
>

Have you started stripping already Steve?  OE 5.5 seems to have lost it's
Organization Field or is this another M$ quirk I wonder?

Cheers, Di�ne
0
Darny
6/20/2001 6:31:00 PM
On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 06:31:56 +1200, "Darny" <darn453@icqmail.com>
wrote:
>
>"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
>news:MPG.159962fa61f07df98976c@207.71.92.194...
>> Gang,
>>
>> I want to strip all inbound postings of
>> all non-standard and non-required headers.
>>
>
>Have you started stripping already Steve?  OE 5.5 seems to have lost it's
>Organization Field or is this another M$ quirk I wonder?
>
>Cheers, Di�ne
>

Mystery solved............  it appears it's my X-No-Archive patch.

Cheers, Di�ne
0
Darny
6/20/2001 7:05:00 PM
> 
> > I'm with Steve:  I can easily do without it.
> 
> So can I, but I like the fun of it. Am I bad now? <grin>
> 

In NO WAY are you "bad" now.  But it's visual noise, it takes up a 
bunch of space on everyone's systems, and it slows down the transfer 
of messages.

For example, that X-Face thing in your post, all by itself, is larger 
than the Body of your message.  :)

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/20/2001 8:36:00 PM
On Wed 20 Jun 2001 04:36:58p, the rare and elusive "Steve Gibson"
came out into the light to exclaim: 

> For example, that X-Face thing in your post, all by itself, is
> larger than the Body of your message.  :)


Well, if we lose X-Face, at least now we can put a face to Urgje's 
posts.  <bg>


Peter
0
sraxman
6/20/2001 8:41:00 PM
(replying to myself... I must have MPD :))

Mike Meyer wrote:

> How about ONLY stripping it if it *is* redundant, if Reply To == From.

This won't /quite/ work.  Look at these headers:

> From: Mike Meyer <mag7mike@SPAMLESShotmail.com>
> Reply-To: mag7mike@SPAMLESShotmail.com

Since the two aren't identical, if Steve wanted to implement my idea he 
would need to search for the Reply-To string within the From string.
0
Mike
6/20/2001 8:48:00 PM
Hi Miss,

> I'm curious. Was there a story behind the story when you asked
> what we thought of trying IRC? Were you looking for a way to
> further your investigations? That would make sense.
> 
> The thing that seems strange, in retrospect, is that the suggestion 
> came just at the time when you were discovering how vulnerable and 
> unruly the IRC gangland can be. But it wasn't presented, at the time, 
> as a newly discovered (I suppose, for you) area of vulnerability and 
> exploits that we need to study and be aware of. Instead, it was 
> presented as a new (for GRC) way of communicating that we might find 
> fun.
> 
> Steve, I believe you are very honest, and have a high ethical 
> standard. If not, I wouldn't be here. I just can't help but wonder
> if you had some other ideas ringing through the back of your mind
> when you made that suggestion. 

It was less of a "story behind the story" than a story with a bit of 
subtext.  I had been, for some time, planning to step into an IRC 
chat room occupied by "some of the hacking boys" and to say "heh".

But I had LITERALLY never used an IRC chat client, and I didn't want 
to seem to be all thumbs and "the typical" clueless bozo old guy to 
the "kids".  <<grin>>  So I was looking for some way to get some 
practice with IRC so that I'd be able to sail right on in there 
rather breezily and not "trip" over the door frame on the way in!

I ended up doing exactly that with Ray and Mona (from our groups 
here) one evening ... which gave me the confidence to say "heh" to 
"^b0ss^".  :)

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/20/2001 8:51:00 PM
"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> schreef in bericht
news:MPG.159aa94518c58cb1989782@207.71.92.194...

    I'm sorry for everybody who thinks otherwise, but the message should
com from the 'body'.  :)

Wimpie.
0
Wimpie
6/20/2001 8:58:00 PM
In message <9gr239$1d2o$1@news.grc.com>, Mike Meyer 
<mag7mike@SPAMLESShotmail.com> writes
>(replying to myself... I must have MPD :))
>
>Mike Meyer wrote:
>
>> How about ONLY stripping it if it *is* redundant, if Reply To == From.
>
>This won't /quite/ work.  Look at these headers:
>
>> From: Mike Meyer <mag7mike@SPAMLESShotmail.com>
>> Reply-To: mag7mike@SPAMLESShotmail.com
>
>Since the two aren't identical, if Steve wanted to implement my idea he
>would need to search for the Reply-To string within the From string.

If they were identical, the 'Reply-to: ' shouldn't be there in the first 
place.

-- 
Jim (Cruncher) Crowther                      "It's MY computer"
*               It's our turn to help pchelp                  *
*                  <http://pchelpers.org>                     *
*    <http://www.cozmikshirts.co.uk/rooms/pchelpers.shtml>    *
0
Jim
6/20/2001 9:03:00 PM
In article news:MPG.159aa94518c58cb1989782@207.71.92.194, Steve Gibson 
<support@grc.com> kicked in with:

>> 
>> > I'm with Steve:  I can easily do without it.
>> 
>> So can I, but I like the fun of it. Am I bad now? <grin>
>> 
> 
> In NO WAY are you "bad" now.  But it's visual noise, it takes up a 
> bunch of space on everyone's systems, and it slows down the transfer 
> of messages.
> 
> For example, that X-Face thing in your post, all by itself, is larger 
> than the Body of your message.  :)
> 

I know (and as you see already removed it in advance), but as others 
pointed out; a lot more space could be saved by training ppl to snip. Not 
something that you could set your server to do, or it should be set to wipe 
out the second-and-above level quoting:
The >> or >>> and above things (see above)

-- 
Fungus (aka Urgje / BomBom the Magnificent)
posting through XNews
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
PGP Key ID:0xDDD4F1E2
[urgje at dds dot nl]
0
Fungus
6/20/2001 9:29:00 PM
In article news:9gr2l6$1e5s$1@news.grc.com, "Wimpie" <stam@indi.nl> kicked 
in with:

> "Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> schreef in bericht
> news:MPG.159aa94518c58cb1989782@207.71.92.194...
> 
> I'm sorry for everybody who thinks otherwise, but the message should
> com from the 'body'.  :)
> 
> Wimpie.
> 
> 
> 

Of course, and I agree with you on this 100%.
But the human mind tends to work with images a lot more since the 
introduction of television, movie, cartoons, photography and illustrations 
in messages.
Whether that element in communication is important here is a matter of 
personal (e)valuation. Is it only the facts that count here or is a certain 
element of socio-psychological interchange important too?! A question of 
'atmosphere' maybe.

-- 
Fungus (aka Urgje / BomBom the Magnificent)
posting through XNews
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
PGP Key ID:0xDDD4F1E2
[urgje at dds dot nl]
0
Fungus
6/20/2001 9:35:00 PM
Posted by Fungus, in article
news:Xns90C6EF44540D16Mk0808v@207.71.92.194: 

> as others 
> pointed out; a lot more space could be saved by training ppl to snip.
> Not something that you could set your server to do, or it should be
> set to wipe out the second-and-above level quoting:
> The >> or >>> and above things

Automagically editing the text body of messages is tricky and dangerous.  
I'm not in favor of any server-side tampering with message bodies, other 
than to strip attachments.  (And I'd much rather see posts with 
attachments refused instead of altered.) 

�Q�
-- 
Luck is the residue of design.
     - B. Rickey
0
ouroboros
6/20/2001 9:50:00 PM
"Fungus" <urgje@dds.nl> schreef in bericht
news:Xns90C6F03A9C8D66Mk0808v@207.71.92.194...
> In article news:9gr2l6$1e5s$1@news.grc.com, "Wimpie" <stam@indi.nl>
kicked

Fungus,

I do agree with your opinion(s).
However, as these NGs for the most part consist of technical help (which
was the first thing Steve attended), it's grown (which is a natural
grow) into a forest of trees, consisting of headers, sigs and what's
more.
Personally i dont feel happy about this movement  into the wrong
direction. I can imagine (like I came here for the first time) that new
visitors are a bit 'frightend' to ask their questions, because some
msggs are so overwhelming with actually nothing in there, apart from
their sig.
I *know* that this the usual thing to happen, but it seemingly only
satisfies the needs of the person who answers the question of a newbee.
I think this all has gotten out of hand, hence Steve trying to get it
all back to where it belongs.

Apart from this, his idea of trimming the tf-groups to nothing, is a
real mistake.

But that's just my opinion.  :)

Wimpie
0
Wimpie
6/20/2001 10:33:00 PM
"�Q�" <ouroboros@apexmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:Xns90C65A315FD1AitsmeitsQ@127.0.0.1...
> It a bit ironic that a hack intended to force a Micro$oft product to give
> very basic functionality is now a problem, denying needed functionality.
> *And* it may force Steve, whom it was intended to help I guess, to do
> more work.
>
> [old header before Steve put his own XNA:Y in place]
> > X-No-Archive: Yes <nmu5d01ifkuuqxrisee10axkb0renfvf>
>
> I'm curious - do you know if Google honored this header in USENET posts?
> It's not quite the header they promised to honor.  I'd guess they parse
> it ok and wouldn't display the message, but I wonder.
>
> �Q�

Hi �Q�,

I do not know about "normal" Usenet posts, as I do not post there, but when
GRC was "googled" for a short time the header was honored by google. That
was when most of us put it in. At least with a normal search (no idea, about
the "special customers, who pay for it, get an other view" topic, that was
discussed).

HiMan
0
HiMan
6/20/2001 10:40:00 PM
Thanks very much for the reply Steve.

Your reasons are perfectly reasonable :)

I never doubted you for a moment... I just wondered.
0
Miss
6/20/2001 11:09:00 PM
Jim Crowther wrote:

> If they were identical, the 'Reply-to: ' shouldn't be there in the first
> place.

That's not always true.  Look at the header of this article.

From: Mike Meyer <mag7mike@SPAMLESShotmail.com>
Reply-To: Mike Meyer <mag7mike@SPAMLESShotmail.com>

There's nothing to prevent redundancy, at least not in this newsreader.
0
Mike
6/20/2001 11:23:00 PM
Didisnipenoughoffofthatpost?Idhatetothinksomeonewouldhavetoreadtoomuch.
0
Some
6/20/2001 11:24:00 PM
On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 at 21:35:28, Fungus wrote in grc.news.feedback
(Reference: <Xns90C6F03A9C8D66Mk0808v@207.71.92.194>)


>But the human mind tends to work with images a lot more since the 
>introduction of television, movie, cartoons, photography and 
>illustrations in messages.

But we also work with a wide range of facilities. I can't see your image 
because I don't (and will not get) a mail/news reader that makes use of 
it. On the other hand we do all have browsers and, whatever differences 
they have, they all have a few things in common among which is the 
ability to look at web pages. If anyone wants to see my picture, they 
can go to http://www.the-underwoods.org.uk to see it. If I wanted 
everyone to see it, who reads my news postings, I could put it in my sig 
or even the body of my messages at far less cost than repeating it in 
every posting.

The X-Face header merely takes up a lot of space not only on Steve's 
news server but also on my machine and it is totally useless information 
as far as I am concerned. (That is not to say that it should not be 
included, but I do think it should be a factor if most of the people who 
receive it don't every want to use it and those who do could get the 
same information for less bandwidth).

-- 
John Underwood
Use the Reply To: address for the next 30 days
After that write to john@the-underwoods.org.uk
Do not send anything to the From: address
0
John
6/20/2001 11:45:00 PM
On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 at 18:23:14, Mike Meyer wrote in grc.news.feedback
(Reference: <9grb6k$1n6t$1@news.grc.com>)


>Jim Crowther wrote:
>
>> If they were identical, the 'Reply-to: ' shouldn't be there in the first
>> place.
>
>That's not always true.  Look at the header of this article.
>
>From: Mike Meyer <mag7mike@SPAMLESShotmail.com>
>Reply-To: Mike Meyer <mag7mike@SPAMLESShotmail.com>
>
>There's nothing to prevent redundancy, at least not in this newsreader.

As a matter of interest, why do you have an identical, spamtrapped Reply 
To: address? The overwhelming evidence is that spammers do not harvest 
Reply To: addresses, only From: ones. I have only received three items 
of apparent spam to the Reply To: address, one was from a small charity 
and the address had been harvested by hand (since I think I know the 
originator, I am pretty sure it came from her own address book). The 
other two were not spam at all but copies of spam items sent to me by 
someone who was conducting a bit of a hate campaign against me and 
thought it would annoy me - since he regularly uses anonymisers, I 
suspect he thought I would spend ages trying to track him down. Other 
things identified fairly conclusively within about a minute.

However, this confirms (admittedly by an argument from silence) that a 
genuine address in the Reply To: header is not a danger. However, I do 
speak from a position where if I am proved wrong I can simply change the 
Reply To: address and, a month later, treat everything sent to it as 
spam.

But, then, so can a hotmail user.
-- 
John Underwood
Use the Reply To: address for the next 30 days
After that write to john@the-underwoods.org.uk
Do not send anything to the From: address
0
John
6/20/2001 11:56:00 PM
John Underwood wrote:

> As a matter of interest, why do you have an identical, spamtrapped Reply
> To: address?

I only changed my Reply-To for that one message.  As you can see in *this* 
article's header, I've already removed it because I never use it.

> The overwhelming evidence is that spammers do not harvest
> Reply To: addresses, only From: ones.

If I did need to use a Reply-To, I would still munge it.  I'm not going to 
assume that spammers will forever ignore Reply-To.  Frankly I think they're 
stupid when they do, but what else would you expect from someone that gets 
their jollies by clogging the Internet with crap.

<snip>

> But, then, so can a hotmail user.

mag7mike@hotmail.com is my junk address.  I hardly ever check it 
anymore--but if you need to contact me privately, I will probably 
eventually get it.  For the first two years I had it I received almost NO 
spam, but then all of a sudden it started pouring in and has been ever 
since.  "Inbox Protector" worked for a while, but then spammers learned how 
to get around it apparently.

My old ISP-provided email, mjmeyer@tznet.com (now invalid) never received 
any spam in the 1.5 years I had it.  And so far, neither has my new email 
provided by myrealbox.com.  My communication habits are probably to 'blame' 
-- I never use UseNet (except, occasionally, the microsoft.* newsgroups), 
almost never publish my email unmunged on the Internet, only give companies 
my Hotmail address when they need email authenication, and verbally abuse 
anyone who forwards any crap to me.
0
Mike
6/21/2001 12:24:00 AM
On or about, Wed 20 Jun 2001 11:43:05 (Local:), "Jim Crowther" captured our 
attention for a moment with the following message:

> If he *really* wants to save some space, then he should state, even more 
> strongly than he does at the moment, that folk should SNIP.
> 

Now this is really something I agree with!  But I also feel there is just 
as big a culprit here which takes us back to the headers issue...

Why not include a required trimming of some of the sigs floating around?  
If my headers are adding too much weight, certainly some have to agree a 
few sigs load the boat as well.

By putting some of this stuff in my headers (i.e. PGP/quotes) it keeps it 
out of the main viewing area. Cleaning up my headers will cause me to drop 
some of this sig material back down to where I feel it uses up valuable 
real estate.

The one thing I really don't get is the "here here's" and/or complaints of 
'too much headers' from people using OE, geez ya gotta do a couple of 
things to even see the headers in the first place.  For xnews, agent/free 
agent, and I belive gravity, viewing headers or not is the option of the 
user (on, selected ones, and off for some).

What newsreader forces the user to view all headers, all the time, which 
cannot at least be toggled on/off anyways?

-- 
m/s,
RedLeg

Either way, headers or not, can't we just get back to saving the world....
0
RedLeg
6/21/2001 2:22:00 AM
X-No-archive: yes 
 
 On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 02:22:42 +0000 (UTC), RedLeg
<nmchannelcat@NOearthlinkSpam.net> wrote:

<snip>
>Why not include a required trimming of some of the sigs floating around?  
>If my headers are adding too much weight, certainly some have to agree a 
>few sigs load the boat as well.
<snip>

Apologies to Robert Wycoff; my sig is now reduced to a crlf and a
single line of text.


Remove the blue water to reply.
0
El
6/21/2001 3:01:00 AM
"Mike Meyer" <mag7mike@SPAMLESShotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9grepk$1qo0$1@news.grc.com...
> If I did need to use a Reply-To, I would still munge it.  I'm not going to
> assume that spammers will forever ignore Reply-To.  Frankly I think
they're
> stupid when they do, but what else would you expect from someone that gets
> their jollies by clogging the Internet with crap.

It's not exactly that they're stupid -- it's that it's far easier to harvest
From: than Reply-To:, because From: is part of the XOVER database (which is
how nearly all newsreaders retrieve the list of messages to be displayed),
but Reply-To: is not.  It's simple enough to use XHDR to retrieve Reply-To,
but it's likely to be slower, especially on high-traffic newsgroups, and
it's also an "unsual" pattern of usage that could get them noticed by the
news admin.
0
Ross
6/21/2001 3:13:00 AM
"John Underwood" wrote in
> The X-Face header merely takes up a lot of space not only on Steve's
> news server but also on my machine and it is totally useless information
> as far as I am concerned. (That is not to say that it should not be
> included, but I do think it should be a factor if most of the people who
> receive it don't ever want to use it and those who do could get the
> same information for less bandwidth).

Well said!   I have no room on my computer and repeated links and sigs is
frustrating to say the least.  Many times I read a post and in order to read
the replies I have to download the same message, links and other stuff over
and over just to read an 'LOL' or an  'I agree' statement.  Most the time I
only read the replies that are only1k and 2k unless the thread is something
of big interest or if I know the person posting will have mostly just his
words in the post.  I seem  to pick up on who has all the junk in their
posts and avoid those.  Survival is the reason.  :-)
~Nanell
0
Nanell
6/21/2001 3:37:00 AM
Posted by Mike Meyer, in article news:9grepk$1qo0$1@news.grc.com:

> I'm not going to 
> assume that spammers will forever ignore Reply-To.  Frankly I think
> they're stupid when they do, but what else would you expect from
> someone that gets their jollies by clogging the Internet with crap.

They ignore it because it's not cost-effective to harvest it.  To get the 
Reply-To header they have to download the full headers and body of the 
message.  As higher bandwidth becomes available to them, they may well 
decide it's worth it to do so.

�Q�
-- 
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
0
ouroboros
6/21/2001 4:03:00 AM
Posted by �Q�, in article news:Xns90C6E762EFB3EitsmeitsQ@127.0.0.1:

> To get the 
> Reply-To header they have to download the full headers and body of the 
> message.

Sorry for the misinformation.  Ross Presser correctly points out in a 
recent post that XHDR will retrieve the full headers (without message 
bodies).

�Q�
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the precipitate.
�����- S. Wright
0
ouroboros
6/21/2001 4:19:00 AM
Posted by Jim Crowther, in article news:SUuHbmP4B+L7EA+b@grc.com.ngs:

> In message <MPG.159973462b14200e98976f@207.71.92.194>, Steve Gibson 
> <support@grc.com> writes
>>The list above proposes to knowingly exclude:

[snip]
 
>>Content-Type
>>Reply-To
>>Sender
> 
> Totally disagree with the above three.  They are essential headers to 
> some folks.

Content-Type is essential to most folks.  In its absence, a reader should 
assume that the content is plain text, US ASCII.  Many readers may garble 
posts if they are forced into that assumption.   

There's no content-type specified in my headers, and there should be, 
because there are Extended ASCII characters (chevrons) in my sig.  
Turnpike garbles them, right Jim?  My fault, and I'll look into 
specifying the correct charset when I get time.

-- 
�Q�

Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
0
ouroboros
6/21/2001 6:03:00 AM
mal franks wrote:
> 
>InTheQuestForSavingSpaceOnStevesServerIHaveDecidedToVoluntarilyRemoveAl
>lSpacesAndPunctuationInAdditionToThisCertainWordsWillBeSpeltTheUSWayEGC
>olourWillNowBeColorFinallyIWillUseNoMoreSigsMalFranks;)

The next degeneration in line (as most IRC users are aware) is the
dreaded Tardspeak.

  Tard1> u r 1 2 snd @ me yzyz
  Tard2> loel @ snd mp3 @ u, i r dialup
  Tard1> gt cable nw plz yzyz
  Tard2> u r 1 2 pay $?

would pass for conversation in many of the places I frequent.

Mal-2
-- 
Here's to woman! Would that we could fall into her arms without
falling into her hands.               -- Ambrose Bierce, 'Bitter Bierce'
Orquesta Guayao Online http://www.geocities.com/orqguayao * ICQ:11401527
0
Malaclypse
6/21/2001 8:09:00 AM
In article news:9gr888$1k96$1@news.grc.com, "Wimpie" <stam@indi.nl> kicked 
in with:

<snip>

> I think this all has gotten out of hand, hence Steve trying to get it
> all back to where it belongs.
> 
> Apart from this, his idea of trimming the tf-groups to nothing, is a
> real mistake.
> 
> But that's just my opinion.  :)
> 
> Wimpie


Agree with most of what you say and the remainder isn't really important.
Some cleaning up may make the informative posts stand out better. All these 
fancy headers are overload (of which there is one I happen to like, but can 
easily miss).
If only ppl could be taught to snip!!! <sigh>

-- 
Fungus (aka Urgje / BomBom the Magnificent)
posting through XNews
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
PGP Key ID:0xDDD4F1E2
[urgje at dds dot nl]
0
Fungus
6/21/2001 8:27:00 AM
On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 at 23:37:19, Nanell wrote in grc.news.feedback
(Reference: <9grqgd$278l$1@news.grc.com>)


>I have no room on my computer and repeated links and sigs is 
>frustrating to say the least.

But, surely, it is in the nature of sigs to be repeated? They should, I 
believe, though, provide information needed to each and every message, 
e.g. requests for replies - though demunging instructions for a Reply 
To: address, should probably not be in the sig but above the separator 
(a line with two hyphens and a space with nothing else). A good 
news/mail program should remove everything that follows that. I believe 
it is undesirable to force a respondent to change the address in the 
first place but to make them go back and find the original letter in 
order to learn how is an additional burden.

> Many times I read a post and in order to read the replies I have to 
>download the same message, links and other stuff over and over just to 
>read an 'LOL' or an  'I agree' statement.

That is a question not so much of a repeated sig as bad nettiquette, 
particularly in the area of snipping and, incidentally, is a highly 
questionable justification for top posting - people have quoted the full 
length of all the previous replies so I have to and, therefore I add my 
comments at the top so people don't have to scroll through the whole 
thing - if they are not going to read the rest, why quote it. Follow the 
nettiquette guide-lines and only quote more than you write when there is 
a real need to do so. In most cases, if you can't find a relevant 
quotation shorter than what you want to say, shouldn't you ask yourself 
if you really have anything worth saying?

>Most the time I only read the replies that are only1k and 2k unless the 
>thread is something of big interest or if I know the person posting 
>will have mostly just his words in the post.  I seem  to pick up on who 
>has all the junk in their posts and avoid those.  Survival is the 
>reason.

That is part of the answer, nevertheless, the lack of consideration has 
had its effect. In most cases, you have had to download the entire thing 
before you know that. I could arrange for this group to be downloaded as 
headers only, then I would have to select the articles or threads I 
wished to read and fetch those on a second occasion. It still doesn't 
solve the problem. If I set a thread to be fetched in full, I get the 
entire thread, there is no way of distinguishing from the header which 
is long article and not fetch that except by killing it which means I 
will never see it. I think this is a problem of the way Usenet (and here 
that includes grc) is organised rather than a feature (or lack of one) 
of my newsreader.
-- 
John Underwood
Use the Reply To: address for the next 30 days
After that write to john@the-underwoods.org.uk
Do not send anything to the From: address
0
John
6/21/2001 8:42:00 AM
In article news:oHXz3MKRWTM7EAxQ@the-underwoods.org.uk, John Underwood 
<spamfromGRC@the-underwoods.org.uk> kicked in with:

> But we also work with a wide range of facilities. 

You're right
 
> The X-Face header merely takes up a lot of space not only on Steve's 
> news server but also on my machine 
 
And so does all the unnecessary and unsnipped repeats of all earlier 
messages. Although I understand and respect Steve's (and your) motives and 
have already removed my X-Face in advance, a lot more space-saving can be 
reached by teaching ppl to snip abd only leave the necessay content of 
earlier messages!

-- 
Fungus (aka Urgje / BomBom the Magnificent)
posting through XNews
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
PGP Key ID:0xDDD4F1E2
[urgje at dds dot nl]
0
Fungus
6/21/2001 8:43:00 AM
On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 at 23:13:56, Ross Presser wrote in grc.news.feedback
(Reference: <9grokb$25dv$1@news.grc.com>)


>It's simple enough to use XHDR to retrieve Reply-To, but it's likely to 
>be slower, especially on high-traffic newsgroups, and it's also an 
>"unsual" pattern of usage that could get them noticed by the news admin.

I have seen this discussed in a number of groups and no-one has produced 
any evidence of more than an occasional harvesting from the Reply-To: 
header. Those few that do occur show clear signs of having been done by 
hand from newsreaders. (Fundamentalist religious fanatics and charity 
enthusiasts seem to characterise them).

One thing does puzzle me and that is the number of messages I get 
addressed to Message IDs as if they were addressed. An example could be: 
<8mcmPGM$gTM7EAxx@the-underwoods.org.uk> (taken from this thread).

At first I thought it was a random string until I found a few in 
messages. Mot people will probably not see these because they are 
swallowed by the ISP but if you own the domain they arrive.

More common are randomly generated names, e.g. a message addressed to 
fred@the-underwoods.org.uk which begins "Thank you for your message". 
Since fred does not and has never existed, this is a most blatant 
example of fraud (though I suppose they sometimes strike lucky and a 
poor suspecting fred somewhere else does believe he wrote to the 
spammer).

The fact remains that I have never received any real spam to any address 
that I have used only in my Reply To: header.
-- 
John Underwood
Use the Reply To: address for the next 30 days
After that write to john@the-underwoods.org.uk
Do not send anything to the From: address
0
John
6/21/2001 8:52:00 AM
On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 at 06:03:36, ›Q‹ wrote in grc.news.feedback
(Reference: <Xns90C7A99C24A2itsmeitsQ@127.0.0.1>)


>There's no content-type specified in my headers, and there should be, 
>because there are Extended ASCII characters (chevrons) in my sig. 
>Turnpike garbles them, right Jim?

Jim's not the only Turnpike user here, ›Q‹, and it doesn't garble 
them. News postings use MIME which handle these things correctly. It is 
mail where problems of this sort are critical. It should, in most cases 
be possible to send and receive things like £, ü, ö, ß, ä, á, à 
(Pound, u umlaut, o umlaut, esszet, a umlaut, a acute and a grave).

You might care to note that I have the header:

Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed

but this is also present:

Mime-Version: 1.0

(And Turnpike garbles nothing, it does the best it can with the 
information it is given. If the headers are incomplete and it gets a 
character it doesn't recognise it makes a best guess and shows it in a 
different colour to indicate that it may not be what the author intended 
- it usually is. In this case, the characters were shown correctly 
because the default for news is MIME encoding.)

-- 
John Underwood
Use the Reply To: address for the next 30 days
After that write to john@the-underwoods.org.uk
Do not send anything to the From: address
0
John
6/21/2001 9:02:00 AM
On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 at 08:43:14, Fungus wrote in grc.news.feedback
(Reference: <Xns90C76D49F805D6Mk0808v@207.71.92.194>)


>And so does all the unnecessary and unsnipped repeats of all earlier 
>messages.

I could not agree more. I also overstate the case a little when it comes 
to the storage of news, my newsreader expires automatically after any 
number of days I can choose and I find that the groups which have heavy 
overquoting tend not to be the ones I want to keep a long time. My 
longest expiry time is 60 days, but that is an extremely well 
disciplined group (and relates to the beta test of Turnpike so has a 
relatively long-term importance). Most groups expire after less than a 
week (though I sometimes mark individual articles to be kept).

Where I notice the burden of excessive quoting is in the time taken to 
download - particularly during the day when I pay. I normally expect a 
connection solely for mail and news to last less than 2 - 3 minutes. 
When they take over five it is very noticeable. 2p unnecessary 
expenditure four times a day is irritating, but, over a year it amounts 
to more than UKP20. And that is for stuff I am not going to read, sent 
to me without thinking. I can't choose which articles to fetch during 
the day and which in the evening, only the whole group.
-- 
John Underwood
Use the Reply To: address for the next 30 days
After that write to john@the-underwoods.org.uk
Do not send anything to the From: address
0
John
6/21/2001 9:14:00 AM
In article <3B31ABBE.D694301E@geocities.com>, billthecat@geocities.com 
mightily proclaimed...
> 
> The next degeneration in line (as most IRC users are aware) is the
> dreaded Tardspeak.
> 
>   Tard1> u r 1 2 snd @ me yzyz
>   Tard2> loel @ snd mp3 @ u, i r dialup
>   Tard1> gt cable nw plz yzyz
>   Tard2> u r 1 2 pay $?
> 
> would pass for conversation in many of the places I frequent.
> 
> Mal-2
> 

Wow you are right - coupled together with spaces & sig elimination plus 
snipping a lot of space will be saved - maybe the next phase should be a 
complete elimination of identity waste, no name, no organisation no e-
mail - we can then all be known solely by our Cecil-ID's!

-- 
<5bo0emqeotde3ldty5yo3ddkoii015g2>

"Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!"
0
mal
6/21/2001 9:52:00 AM
In article news:bMvP12GxrbM7EAWM@the-underwoods.org.uk, John Underwood 
<spamfromGRC@the-underwoods.org.uk> kicked in with:

<snip>

The messages (and sometimes threads) that really interest me go into my 
newsreader's archive. The remainder usually expires after 3-7 days. In here 
there are a few of the zzz archives that are kept without expiry date. All 
in all it does not take that much space.

Although I can understand your annoyance with longer downloads and 
corresponding higher costs for you, that's not a problem here, being on 
cable . . . (just to make you a bit jealous ;-))
The real 'burden' is having to scroll through a lengthy post to see the 
last 2-5% making up the factual message.

Everybody, please learn to snip! :-)
I had phant0m call me 'Snipey', which in fact I saw as a compliment. Jim 
Crowther taught me well, I think. Thanks Jim! <big grin>

-- 
Fungus (aka Urgje / BomBom the Magnificent)
posting through XNews
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
PGP Key ID:0xDDD4F1E2
[urgje at dds dot nl]
0
Fungus
6/21/2001 11:27:00 AM
Fungus wrote:

>Everybody, please learn to snip! :-)
>I had phant0m call me 'Snipey', which in fact I saw as a compliment. 
>Jim Crowther taught me well, I think. Thanks Jim! <big grin>

I was merely passing on communal wisdom - it was more a compliment to 
you for your quick realisation of the issues. :)

-- 
Jim Crowther
"It's MY computer"
<http://pchelpers.org>
<http://website.lineone.net/~legal.defence.fund/>
0
Jim
6/21/2001 11:59:00 AM
In article news:75BL1vKfGeM7EwQJ@Lockdown.scam, Jim Crowther 
<Don't.use.Lockdown@any.price> kicked in with:

<snip>

> I was merely passing on communal wisdom - it was more a compliment to 
> you for your quick realisation of the issues. :)
> 

If only others would take on as quickly . . .
<he said, pounding his chest in pride, and ducking out of harm's way>
And thanks for the compliment (wish I was as good with other things ;-))

-- 
Fungus (aka Urgje / BomBom the Magnificent)
posting through XNews
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
PGP Key ID:0xDDD4F1E2
[urgje at dds dot nl]
0
Fungus
6/21/2001 12:13:00 PM
I hate that type of pseudocommunication. I can't understand how anyne can
make sende out of that. To me, it's quicker to write and read like I always
do. Though I can read typoese; I have to, my Dad is fluent in it, it seems
to be his "online language" <g>

"Malaclypse the Younger" wrote:
> The next degeneration in line (as most IRC users are aware) is the
> dreaded Tardspeak.
>
>   Tard1> u r 1 2 snd @ me yzyz
>   Tard2> loel @ snd mp3 @ u, i r dialup
>   Tard1> gt cable nw plz yzyz
>   Tard2> u r 1 2 pay $?
>
> would pass for conversation in many of the places I frequent.
0
Some
6/21/2001 12:34:00 PM
I prefer to trim than to snip.

"Fungus" wrote:
> Agree with most of what you say and the remainder isn't really important.
> Some cleaning up may make the informative posts stand out better. All
these
> fancy headers are overload (of which there is one I happen to like, but
can
> easily miss).
> If only ppl could be taught to snip!!! <sigh>
0
Some
6/21/2001 12:36:00 PM
In article news:9gspkq$3sb$1@news.grc.com, "Some dull guy"
<iamkristoffer@hotmail.com> kicked in with: 

> I prefer to trim than to snip.

<snip/trim>

Alright with me, as long as it's done! And as long as you don't trip on the 
snim . . . ;-)

-- 
Fungus (aka Urgje / BomBom the Magnificent)
posting through XNews
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
PGP Key ID:0xDDD4F1E2
[urgje at dds dot nl]
0
Fungus
6/21/2001 12:38:00 PM
On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 at 11:27:03, Fungus wrote in grc.news.feedback
(Reference: <Xns90C7890ED68A16Mk0808v@207.71.92.194>)


>Although I can understand your annoyance with longer downloads and 
>corresponding higher costs for you, that's not a problem here, being on 
>cable . . . (just to make you a bit jealous ;-))

Actually jealousy is not my reaction. I abide my time before a move to 
ADSL which probably won't cost me much more that  I am now paying for 
telephone and Internet and will be 24/7 and similar performance to cable 
(i.e. more than I need most of the time). It also means I keep the same 
ISP that I like and don't have to take the cable company's own one. (And 
I still have quite a good deal when away from home).
-- 
John Underwood
Use the Reply To: address for the next 30 days
After that write to john@the-underwoods.org.uk
Do not send anything to the From: address
0
John
6/21/2001 1:15:00 PM
"El Gato Grande" <elgatograndeblue@watertechemail.com> wrote in message
news:qmo2jt4v0dl06ojohi8hc0g1kthcuj0ur7@4ax.com...

> Apologies to Robert Wycoff; my sig is now reduced to a crlf and a
> single line of text.

:-(

:-)
--
� 
-- 
Robert
grc.com forum FAQ - http://grc.com/discussions.htm
grc.com forum quick reference - http://grc.com/nntpquickref.htm
grc.com forum disclaimer - http://grc.com/forumdisclaimer.htm
grc.com privacy statement - http://grc.com/privacy.htm
(No excuse for my sig; hopefully it helps the newbies)
0
Robert
6/21/2001 2:10:00 PM
Posted by John Underwood, in article
news:q86DpfFmgbM7EAz8@the-underwoods.org.uk: 

> Jim's not the only Turnpike user here, ›Q‹, and it doesn't garble 
> them. News postings use MIME which handle these things correctly.
[snip]
> (And Turnpike garbles nothing, it does the best it can with the 
> information it is given. If the headers are incomplete and it gets a 
> character it doesn't recognise it makes a best guess and shows it in
> a different colour to indicate that it may not be what the author
> intended - it usually is. In this case, the characters were shown
> correctly because the default for news is MIME encoding.)

Xnews has trouble with 8-bit encoding and some charsets which cause it 
not to display some characters correctly.  UTF-8 apparently does not 
display correctly in Xnews, and I misinterpreted what was on my screen as 
a problem with the way Turnpike handles extended ASCIIs when charset is 
not specified.  I'm glad to hear that Turnpike follows the 'be generous 
in what you accept' maxim very well.

Other readers may not be so generous, or may not be able to guess the 
charset so well.  

�Q�
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the precipitate.
�����- S. Wright
0
ouroboros
6/21/2001 7:22:00 PM
In article <M8TK5ZECXbM7EAWp@the-underwoods.org.uk>, spamfromGRC@the-underwoods.org.uk 
says...

> One thing does puzzle me and that is the number of messages I get 
> addressed to Message IDs as if they were addressed. An example could be: 
> <8mcmPGM$gTM7EAxx@the-underwoods.org.uk> (taken from this thread).

I've always seen it explained that this is due to stripping of addresses
from message bodies, especially via Web interfaces and/or with bulk HTML
downloaders.  
As above "In article <M8TK5ZECXbM7EAWp@the-underwoods.org.uk>,*... says..."
this seems to me a suitable answer.   This is another reason why I 
don't use a real email "Reply:" as most newsreaders are configured
to reprint the Reply: line
 
<snip>

> The fact remains that I have never received any real spam to any address 
> that I have used only in my Reply To: header.
> 

Confirmed.



Ash
0
Ash
6/21/2001 7:53:00 PM
Hi Some Dull Guy,

> But think about it this way: how many times would you really
> ASK someone what newsreader they are using? Certainly not
> EVERY post. Certainly not even 1/3 of all posts. So the net
> effect is a smaller archive and smaller posts.

The whole thing is just a synthetic argument to support a theoretical 
position.  Like "Windows should have full raw sockets because it has 
only had partial raw sockets so far and partial is not as good as 
full."

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 12:35:00 AM
Heh RedLeg,

> Either way, headers or not, can't we just get back to saving
> the world....

I very much want to.  But with only "one of me" here I can't keep 
jumping back and forth between different problems. So, I need to get 
the new newsgroup server and software smoothly and as perfectly as I 
can so that I CAN return to the rest ...

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 12:39:00 AM
> For many users those two headers are not redundant, and it's
> because of the way XOVER is used by spammers.  The address-
> harvesting bots used by spammers only send an XOVER request,
> to avoid wasting their resources downloading full headers and
> message bodies.  XOVER returns the From header, but not the
> Reply-To (at least on all the servers I've seen); that's why
> many posters use an invalid addy in From and a valid one in 
> Reply-To.

Ah!  That's *just* the sort of info I was hoping to find.

Thanks very much �Q�!

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 12:56:00 AM
> As pointed out earlier, many of us munge the from field (the field that
> spambots typically harvest?) but have a valid email addy in reply to.
> If you're going to eliminate the reply to, then we'd either have to:
> 1.  post a valid email addy in from field and risk harvest by spambots
> in this and other NGs.
> 2.  have a signature file that specifies how to unmunge the from field
> to receive valid email replies.
> 
> If we do #2, it seems we would be adding more lines to archive than a
> one line reply to would generate.  Or am I missing something (totally
> possible)?

I agree.

I only want to retain ONE header with valid data.
Why have two when one is probably munged??

The logic would be as follows:

If a posting DOES contain a "Reply-To" field presume it's the valid 
info.  Retain it and delete the "From" field.

If there is NO reply-to, then change the header name on the "From" 
header to "Reply-To" and retain that.

So ... every posting will have a "Reply-To" header and no "From:"  
UNLESS INN won't accept a posting with no "From" header ... which 
might be the case since it was already complaining about invalid 
eMail address formats in some postings.

Anyway ... I would LIKE to get away with having only one such "person 
identifying" header.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 1:02:00 AM
Carlene,

> Now THAT'S the ticket! You, NoNameGiven, and �Q� get the prize!

I agree. That works toward my goal of having only a single, non-
redundant identifying field and eliminating one which is routinely 
and deliberately incorrect.

> Now if only Steve will be further reading this thread tomorrow.

Of course I'm here.  I need to know what everyone thinks -- and learn 
everything I can -- so that my eventual decisions will be the best 
they can be.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 1:06:00 AM
> 
> How about ONLY stripping it if it *is* redundant, if Reply To == From.
> 

Very clean. It works toward my hope of not having redundant or 
deliberately incorrect (for the spammers) info in our database.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 1:07:00 AM
Ross,

> It's not exactly that they're stupid -- it's that it's far easier to harvest
> From: than Reply-To:, because From: is part of the XOVER database (which is
> how nearly all newsreaders retrieve the list of messages to be displayed),
> but Reply-To: is not.  It's simple enough to use XHDR to retrieve Reply-To,
> but it's likely to be slower, especially on high-traffic newsgroups, and
> it's also an "unsual" pattern of usage that could get them noticed by the
> news admin.

And, also, since "From" is required but "Reply-To" is not, it's 
probably the case that gathering reliability is proportionally higher 
as well.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 1:19:00 AM
Hi mc ...

> No that wont be acceptable as both myself and at least one other has
> explained. Many people put an invalid address in From: and a slightly
> munged address in Reply-To:. If you remove Reply-to then nobody will be
> able to respond personally to those persons.

Righto.

> I believe there are also situations where a user's isp requires the from
> address to match the person's isp address, but the person wants incoming
> mail to go to a web-based account for access from anywhere. This to
> would be foiled by removing the Reply-To field.

You've convinced me of the need for Reply-To.  But since I would love 
to have only a single type of "who sent it" header, I'm hoping that I 
can get away with removing the "From" header.  (Though I doubt it.)

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 1:32:00 AM
> It sounds like you're in "byte shaving" mode. I'm not knocking it. 
> Certainly there are a lot of crazy headers out there. I just wonder 
> how much incremental gain you get for each byte that you trim off of a 
> post. I suppose you don't want the effectiveness of the solution to 
> impair its usefulness.

It's just my "assembly language" style.  When I'm focused upon a 
problem I want the best result I can get.  I don't care at all if 
it's way more optimum that necessary -- or even useful -- I still 
want to push it all the way.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 1:34:00 AM
> 
> Seconded. I can't work properly without the charset, which
> is given in Content-Type.
> 

Who so Serge??

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 1:36:00 AM
Jim,

> However, if 'Reply-to: ' *is* there, that is because the poster
> is taking sensible security and privacy precautions, which I
> thought you were advocating.

Huh?  Me advocating sensible security and privacy precautions?
Nah ... not I.

Having read down to this point in the thread I now clearly see the 
reasons for it.

> Sorry Steve, removing 'Reply-to: ' is a Bad Thing, and would be 
> considered very rude by many.

Yes, that's very clear to me.

> The 'Sender: ' field is essential for some as well.  There are many ISPs 
> (I use a couple of them) who require that any e-mail passed through 
> their system must have that account's complete and true e-mail address, 
> regardless what is in the 'From: ' and 'Reply-to: ' fields.  Although 
> this does not hold true for news, many posters use the same details for 
> both news and e-mail.  Requiring them to change might confuse them even 
> more.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you Jim, this argument doesn't hold. 

Users are welcome to have whatever headers their ISP requires for 
outbound mail and news ... but that in no way, that I can see, 
creates a burden on me to retain any such headers which are 
unnecessary -- by virtue of the fact that they were forced to include 
those otherwise unnecessary headers to satisfy their ISP.

> Please think very carefully before removing any headers apart
> from the 'X-*: ' ones, they all have essential uses for some.

As I hope is clear to everyone, I *AM* indeed thinking very carefully 
about it.  I would never do otherwise ... especially in light of all 
the excellently well-informed people here who are as involved in the 
process as I could ever ask!  :)

> Just my strongly-felt GBP20.

And thank you for that!

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 1:53:00 AM
Mitch,

> If Steve cannot see the necessity for leaving the Reply-to
> header alone, then he is just not in touch with reality.

Hell, what else is new?  Haven't you heard?  I'm COMPLETELY out of 
touch with reality and totally nuts for wanting Microsoft to make 
Windows XP less easily exploitable for Internet attacks.  What's 
WRONG with me?!!!

> If the intention is to save space -- I would have thought that he would
> be better served by embarking on a crusade to teach people how to edit
> properly. IOW, how many lines are 'wasted' on reply-to headers compared
> with a post which has a 3 line reply and the whole of the previous post
> tagged on after it?

No Mitch.  The intention is not to save space.  The intention is to 
find a minimally optimal solution ... for its own sake.

This is how I LEARN what is really necessary ... and what is not.  I 
am not swayed by rumor and custom about such things.  I usually push 
it too far, learn that that's where I am, then back off so that I 
know I didn't leave anything unexplored.  You guys have seen me do 
this time and time again.  I know that it annoys some of you, but 
it's the only way I've ever found of KNOWING rather than "presuming."

> And how on earth can a 'Reply-to' header be regarded as non-standard?

Not non-standard Mitch ... only potentially unnecessary.  I now 
understand why it isn't.  But had I not explored it, I would not have 
known.  Fortunately, the people here have been willing to explain it 
to me in simple sentences with small words.  So now ... I got it.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 2:02:00 AM
Dear Miss,

> Possibly he doesn't spend as much time on the newsgroups and
> "in the wild" as some of us.

That's very much the case.

> Or perhaps he has found his own solution to these problems
> (which we would all like to hear).

I *only* want to know that I didn't let a potentially cool
solution pass me by.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 2:03:00 AM
> Wrong. afaik Reply-To is always use when available for replying to
> messages. From is only used for replying when reply-to is not available.

> See other posts.

Believe me ... I have!  <<grin>>

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 2:04:00 AM
> 
> Please reconsider your thoughts.
> 

I've never stopped doing that.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 2:05:00 AM
I'm not sure I fully comprehend. Are you referring to my statements or to
those I am responding to?

--
- -
When replying by Email, set the priority to "Low" (this will filter it to
the proper folder in OE).
This post is not to be copied to any server other than news.grc.com, or any
news archive server run by Gibson Research Corporation.
"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.159c32bdb4084698989797@207.71.92.194...
> Hi Some Dull Guy,
>
> > But think about it this way: how many times would you really
> > ASK someone what newsreader they are using? Certainly not
> > EVERY post. Certainly not even 1/3 of all posts. So the net
> > effect is a smaller archive and smaller posts.
>
> The whole thing is just a synthetic argument to support a theoretical
> position.  Like "Windows should have full raw sockets because it has
> only had partial raw sockets so far and partial is not as good as
> full."
>
> --
> _________________________________________________________________
> Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Some
6/22/2001 2:30:00 AM
RedLeg,

Yes indeed ... you DO have some extremely "creative" headers! :)

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 2:31:00 AM
DarkUser ...

> Will you keep orginazation so that the people that followed
> your suggestion and put the Cecil-D there will be ok?

Yes, Absolutely.

Though I think that I'll actually find the Cecil-ID no matter WHERE 
it appears and silently extract it from the "inbound" header and move 
it to a custom "X-Cecil-ID" header.  That would be every clean.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 2:35:00 AM
Darny ...

> You'll get no argument from me Steve. I've trimmed back my bloated
> custom headers to just  X-Cecil-ID:   :o)  I'd still like to keep
> "noregrets" and have stuck it in the Organization field.

That's VERY clever!!
So you always have a URL to the NoRegrets page handy!  How cool.

Yes, I agree that Organization is a field that should survive my 
maniacal header pruning.  :)

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 2:38:00 AM
Karl,

> 
> plz keep Reply-To for ALL the reasons as stated by the others
> and i also LOVE the idea of finding and moving the cecil-id
> to its own header :)
>

Yes, it's VERY clear that "Reply-To" needs to stay!!!

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 2:38:00 AM
HiMan,

You're right!!

Since I have not yet written the Cecil-Id relocator, which would move 
your Cecil-ID into its own header BEFORE zapping any existing "X-No-
Archive" header, your Cecil-ID is getting blasted for the time being.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 2:51:00 AM
In article <MPG.159c44ee38e64e0b9897a1@207.71.92.194> Steve Gibson
wrote:
> 
> Users are welcome to have whatever headers their ISP requires for
> outbound mail and news ... but that in no way, that I can see,
> creates a burden on me to retain any such headers which are
> unnecessary -- by virtue of the fact that they were forced to include
> those otherwise unnecessary headers to satisfy their ISP.
> 
If I understand it correctly, each individual keeps the header he or she
now has.  The ISP sees the same header it has been seeing and is
accustomed to seeing.  GRC changes all headers to a GRC standard header
when it hits the news.grc.com server.  Thus, nothing the individual now
has in their personal header needs to be changed.  Correct?
-- 
Alan
0
Hermital
6/22/2001 3:07:00 AM
"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.159c47013a780c0d9897a2@207.71.92.194...
> Fortunately, the people here have been willing to explain it
> to me in simple sentences with small words.  So now ... I got it.

Hehe, teaching the teacher. :)  It sounds like you've decided to keep the
Reply-To.  I'm happy about it, even though I don't use it.  As pointed out
in the "Outlook Express and X-No-Archive" thread, under your old plan OE
users would need to decide what to lose: X-No-Archive for Usenet, Cecil-ID
for GRC, or Outlook Express itself.

BTW, I think that for your "minimally optimal solution" you should revise
your filter to leave X-No-Archive alone if it already exists.  That way the
headers could still read "X-No-Archive: Yes <insertgrccecilidrighthere>"
0
Mike
6/22/2001 3:49:00 AM
Posted by Steve Gibson, in article 
news:MPG.159c391ecb9dc04298979a@207.71.92.194:

> So ... every posting will have a "Reply-To" header and no "From:" 

I think you should be *extremely* cautious about removing any headers 
required by the current RFC 1036, which has been in place since 1987, and 
by the draft of the replacement for it.  Both have the same list of 
required headers:  Date, From, Message-ID, Subject, Newsgroups, Path.

From headers have been required on USENET since at least 1983 (the now-
obsolete RFC 850).  Since newsreaders have every reason to expect that 
header to be present in every post, I suspect numerous problems would 
arise if they're fed From-less articles.  At the very least, XOVER 
requests would not return any indication of who wrote which post, which 
I'd consider a bad enough problem to scrap the idea.

-- 
�Q�

Reality leaves a lot to the imagination.
     - J. Lennon
0
ouroboros
6/22/2001 3:50:00 AM
> I'm not sure I fully comprehend. Are you referring to my
> statements or to those I am responding to?

Who knows??  I'm probably just rambling ....  :)

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 5:28:00 AM
> > So ... every posting will have a "Reply-To" header and no "From:"

I may have no choice in the matter due to enforcement by the news 
server.  But ...

> I think you should be *extremely* cautious about removing any headers 
> required by the current RFC 1036, which has been in place since 1987, and 
> by the draft of the replacement for it.  Both have the same list of 
> required headers:  Date, From, Message-ID, Subject, Newsgroups, Path.

With *ALL* due respect �Q� -- and I really do mean that -- I don't 
give a shit what the RFC's say.  With everyone's help and feedback 
here we are going to explore the boundaries of reality and demystify 
all this hocus-pocus.

> From headers have been required on USENET since at least 1983 (the now-
> obsolete RFC 850).  Since newsreaders have every reason to expect that 
> header to be present in every post, I suspect numerous problems would 
> arise if they're fed From-less articles.  At the very least, XOVER 
> requests would not return any indication of who wrote which post, which 
> I'd consider a bad enough problem to scrap the idea.

Again ... I couldn't care less about what "might happen" and what 
"might not work".  It's not like we're developing mission critical 
deep space hibernation management software here ... where a mistake 
will kill our hibernating crew three years out on their 700-year 
mission to a far star.

We're just farting around with some newsreading stuff!  I think it's 
FUN ... and many of you are quoting the scriptures, getting out the 
garlic, and warning of retribution from the spirit world.  What's the 
fun in running scared?????

			Let's BREAK something!!!

.... only then will be find out how it really works!

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 5:36:00 AM
(Thanks for letting me rant in your posting. <<grin>>)

I'm serious ... but I'm not at all upset.  I'm having fun!

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 5:37:00 AM
Precisely Alan!

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 5:38:00 AM
> BTW, I think that for your "minimally optimal solution" you
> should revise your filter to leave X-No-Archive alone if it
> already exists.  That way the headers could still read
> "X-No-Archive: Yes <insertgrccecilidrighthere>"

I agree.  Although that particular problem would have been solved 
anyway once the "Cecil-ID extractor" is present since the CID would 
be relocated into its own header.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 5:40:00 AM
Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
> > > So ... every posting will have a "Reply-To" header and no "From:"
> 
> I may have no choice in the matter due to enforcement by the news
> server.  But ...
> 
> > I think you should be *extremely* cautious about removing any headers
> > required by the current RFC 1036, which has been in place since 1987, and
> > by the draft of the replacement for it.  Both have the same list of
> > required headers:  Date, From, Message-ID, Subject, Newsgroups, Path.
> 
> With *ALL* due respect �Q� -- and I really do mean that -- I don't
> give a shit what the RFC's say.  With everyone's help and feedback
> here we are going to explore the boundaries of reality and demystify
> all this hocus-pocus.
> 
> > From headers have been required on USENET since at least 1983 (the now-
> > obsolete RFC 850).  Since newsreaders have every reason to expect that
> > header to be present in every post, I suspect numerous problems would
> > arise if they're fed From-less articles.  At the very least, XOVER
> > requests would not return any indication of who wrote which post, which
> > I'd consider a bad enough problem to scrap the idea.
> 
> Again ... I couldn't care less about what "might happen" and what
> "might not work".  It's not like we're developing mission critical
> deep space hibernation management software here ... where a mistake
> will kill our hibernating crew three years out on their 700-year
> mission to a far star.
> 
> We're just farting around with some newsreading stuff!  I think it's
> FUN ... and many of you are quoting the scriptures, getting out the
> garlic, and warning of retribution from the spirit world.  What's the
> fun in running scared?????
> 
>                         Let's BREAK something!!!
> 
> ... only then will be find out how it really works!
> 
> --
> _________________________________________________________________
> Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >

I _love_ this man! :-)

Corey
0
nospam
6/22/2001 6:03:00 AM
"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.159c79294040698c9897bd@207.71.92.194...
>
<snip>
>
> We're just farting around with some newsreading stuff!  I think it's
> FUN ... and many of you are quoting the scriptures, getting out the
> garlic, and warning of retribution from the spirit world.  What's the
> fun in running scared?????
>
> Let's BREAK something!!!
>
> ... only then will be find out how it really works!
>

Uh oh. Lookout. Steve is almost in super geek coding mode. <g>

Ray
0
Ray
6/22/2001 6:07:00 AM
"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.159c79294040698c9897bd@207.71.92.194...
> With *ALL* due respect �Q� -- and I really do mean that -- I don't
> give a shit what the RFC's say.  With everyone's help and feedback
> here we are going to explore the boundaries of reality and demystify
> all this hocus-pocus.

Every day, Steve, you remind me more and more of Capt. Janeway. :)  You have
your loyal crew, your ever-hating critics, and most of all, a sense of
exploration and a to-hell-with-the-directives attitude.  Take that as a
complement from a Voyager fan!

--
Set a course... for home.
0
Mike
6/22/2001 6:16:00 AM
Steve Gibson <support@grc.com> wrote in
news:MPG.159c47013a780c0d9897a2@207.71.92.194: 
 
> No Mitch.  The intention is not to save space.  The intention is to
> find a minimally optimal solution ... for its own sake.

"If we were expiring all articles I wouldn't care, but everyone wants 
to keep everything posted here forever, so those headers will forever 
consume space.  I want to zap'em on the way in."

Hi Steve,

Sorry for being behind the 8 ball in this thread.

I had a thought, and this may be totally off base (not unusual for me) 
and of no help in acheiving your goal, I don't know, but here goes 
anyway.

Instead of stripping non standard headers on the way in, why not leave 
them as the status quo while they are in an "active" group and when 
they are archived then strip the guts out of them in whatever way you 
see fit?

Perhaps it isn't possible or too difficult to implement this way but 
another slant on things.

Regards,
Jeff
0
Jeff
6/22/2001 6:25:00 AM
Posted by Steve Gibson, in article
news:MPG.159c79294040698c9897bd@207.71.92.194: 

>> > So ... every posting will have a "Reply-To" header and no "From:"
> 
> I may have no choice in the matter due to enforcement by the news 
> server.  But ...
> 
>> I think you should be *extremely* cautious about removing any
>> headers required by the current RFC 1036, which has been in place
>> since 1987, and by the draft of the replacement for it.  Both have
>> the same list of required headers:  Date, From, Message-ID, Subject,
>> Newsgroups, Path. 
> 
> With *ALL* due respect �Q� -- and I really do mean that -- I don't 
> give a shit what the RFC's say.  With everyone's help and feedback 
> here we are going to explore the boundaries of reality and demystify 
> all this hocus-pocus.

I'm not sure what you mean by hocus-pocus.  I know you need not pay 
attention to any RFCs.  I was trying to provide help and feedback, and 
I;m sorry if my post seemed like a lame 'appeal to authority.'  The real 
reason I urge caution when it comes to From is selfish, I must admit.  I 
find these groups very helpful, and doing away with From would make it 
not worth my while to read here.
 
>> From headers have been required on USENET since at least 1983 (the
>> now- obsolete RFC 850).  Since newsreaders have every reason to
>> expect that header to be present in every post, I suspect numerous
>> problems would arise if they're fed From-less articles.  At the very
>> least, XOVER requests would not return any indication of who wrote
>> which post, which I'd consider a bad enough problem to scrap the
>> idea. 
> 
> Again ... I couldn't care less about what "might happen" and what 
> "might not work".  It's not like we're developing mission critical 
> deep space hibernation management software here ... where a mistake 
> will kill our hibernating crew three years out on their 700-year 
> mission to a far star.

I see.  But I'm confused now about why you seek feedback in advance.  Why 
not just make changes now if you're not concerned with what might happen 
or might not work?

> We're just farting around with some newsreading stuff!  I think it's 
> FUN ... and many of you are quoting the scriptures, getting out the 
> garlic, and warning of retribution from the spirit world.  What's the
> fun in running scared?????

I cited the RFCs not because I think your server should abide by them on 
principle - no principles are at stake here - but because I think that 
it's a good idea to accomodate the newsreaders that are in the wild, for 
the sake of these groups' usefulness to a lot of people.  I won't mention 
the RFCs again.

>                Let's BREAK something!!!
> 
> ... only then will be find out how it really works!

I wish you wouldn't break this particular thing.  If you do, then I guess 
I'll just go away for a while and return later to see what shook out.  
You're absolutely right about it being no big deal, and I guess I'll 
handle the withdrawal ok.

-- 
�Q�

Reality leaves a lot to the imagination.
     - J. Lennon
0
ouroboros
6/22/2001 6:53:00 AM
Posted by Steve Gibson, in article 
news:MPG.159c795fa827e52f9897be@207.71.92.194:

> (Thanks for letting me rant in your posting. <<grin>>)
> 
> I'm serious ... but I'm not at all upset.  I'm having fun!

lol.  I completely understand, and I thank you for the 'rant.'  It's made 
me realize that I should go find fun in other threads and other places, 
while you have your fun here.

Good luck in your netnews tinkerings!

-- 
�Q�

Luck is the residue of design.
     - B. Rickey
0
ouroboros
6/22/2001 6:53:00 AM
Jeff,

> Instead of stripping non standard headers on the way in, why not
> leave them as the status quo while they are in an "active" group
> and when they are archived then strip the guts out of them in
> whatever way you see fit?
> 
> Perhaps it isn't possible or too difficult to implement this way
> but another slant on things.

You're apparently not behind the 8-ball at all, since that's a very 
reasonable "fall back" position.  In fact, I verified my ability to 
do just that several days ago.

But that's just a fall back position.  I'm interested in "boundary 
testing".  <<grin>>

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 7:09:00 AM
�Q� ...

I really hoped that you would take my note as LESS a reply to you 
than as a general summation of my sentiment on the whole issue.
I am sorry if I put you on the defensive, it was NOT my intent.

One of the key values of these groups is to allow me to "try things 
out". I learned a LOT by proposing that "From" should be stripped.

And ... in fact ... I'm using the RESULT of all that thrashing about 
and "boundary-testing" research right now.  Check out my headers 
here!  <<grin>>

I think this is the perfect solution.  The From header exists -- as 
it must -- but it carries no eMail address whatsoever.  Just my name, 
my handle, my moniker ... whatever.  So there is *nothing* for the 
eMail address harvesters to suck up.  And the Reply-To field carries 
my eMail address (with or without a redundant name, I don't care, but 
I chose not to have one.)

Note that it is the FROM field which threads our articles together 
and shows our authorship in the thread views ... so of course we need 
it. But there is no need for it to contain anything other than the 
handle the user wants to use as their personal "moniker."

>---------------------------------------------------------------

So ... the rest of you grumbly people don't need to have your "From" 
headers cleaned up by my filter if you want it left alone ... but I 
think this is very cool.  :)

I feel that, once again, by thrashing around and testing the 
boundaries we found a really nice and unique solution that we could 
not have discovered except by loosening our grip on the RFC's and 
finding out what's possible.

If we can't all agree on "From header cleansing" then I'll come up 
with a way for individual users to request cleansing while anyone who 
wants to stay loyal to the RFC's will be able to. That's no problem 
for me.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 7:26:00 AM
Le ven., 22 juin 2001 01:36:51 GMT,
Steve Gibson <support@grc.com> a �crit
dans grc.news.feedback�:

>> Seconded. I can't work properly without the charset, which
>> is given in Content-Type.

*IT* can't work... Small typo here.

> Who so Serge??

("How so", I guess?)

If no char-set is given, I think newsreaders default to us-ascii, which 
is very limited. All European diacritics may fail to display properly.

-- 
  ___________   
_/ _ \_`_`_`_)  Serge PACCALIN -- sp ad mailclub.net
 \  \_L_)   Il faut donc que les hommes commencent
   -'(__)   par n'�tre pas fanatiques pour m�riter
_/___(_)    la tol�rance. -- Voltaire, 1763

  
0
Serge
6/22/2001 7:42:00 AM
Please forgive my ignorance in advance. But I've been lurking (for the 
most part) around here for some time and only lately hear talk of 
X-Cecil-ID's. 

Could someone please clarify for me what this is?

Thanks,

Garry
-- 
Why can't they assume I opt-out???
0
Garry
6/22/2001 7:43:00 AM
"Garry" <Garry@assume-I-opt-out.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.159ca5142dc0a098989682@news.grc.com...
> X-Cecil-ID's.
>
> Could someone please clarify for me what this is?

Visit http://grc.com/noregrets.htm for the full answer.
0
Mike
6/22/2001 7:46:00 AM
> >> Seconded. I can't work properly without the charset, which
> >> is given in Content-Type.
> 
> *IT* can't work... Small typo here.

Yeah

> > Who so Serge??
> 
> ("How so", I guess?)

Boy ... I'm more tired than I'm admitting!  :)

> If no char-set is given, I think newsreaders default to
> us-ascii, which is very limited. All European diacritics may
> fail to display properly.

Okay, gotcha.   Thanks.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 7:48:00 AM
In article <Xns90C8BBB2E8919zapped@207.71.92.194>, jefx@myrealbox.com says...
> Sorry for being behind the 8 ball in this thread.
> 
> I had a thought, and this may be totally off base (not unusual for me) 
> and of no help in acheiving your goal, I don't know, but here goes 
> anyway.
> 
> Instead of stripping non standard headers on the way in, why not leave 
> them as the status quo while they are in an "active" group and when 
> they are archived then strip the guts out of them in whatever way you 
> see fit?
> 
> Perhaps it isn't possible or too difficult to implement this way but 
> another slant on things.
> 
> Regards,
> Jeff
> 

Hi Jeff

My problem with that is that headers will be discussed in posts, with
no way to historically verify the accuracy of those posts after they're
archived.

Just a thought.

Regards
Carlene
0
Carlene
6/22/2001 7:50:00 AM
In article <9gut1l$2eo2$1@news.grc.com>, mag7mike@SPAMLESShotmail.com 
says...
> 
> "Garry" <Garry@assume-I-opt-out.net> wrote in message
> news:MPG.159ca5142dc0a098989682@news.grc.com...
> > X-Cecil-ID's.
> >
> > Could someone please clarify for me what this is?
> 
> Visit http://grc.com/noregrets.htm for the full answer.

Thanks Mike. That cleared it up. 

Cheers,

Garry
-- 
Why can't they assume I opt-out???
0
Garry
6/22/2001 7:58:00 AM
Salaam!

Steve Gibson wrote:

> Let's BREAK something!!!
> ... only then will be find out how it really works!

   I get spam with no "to" and no "from" headers.

> Steve Gibson, at work on: < a million loose ends >

was-salaam,
abujamal
-- 
news://news.pchelponline.org
0
abujamal
6/22/2001 9:00:00 AM
On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:36:11 -0700, Steve Gibson enlightened us all
with:

>With *ALL* due respect �Q� -- and I really do mean that -- I don't 
>give a shit what the RFC's say.  With everyone's help and feedback 
>here we are going to explore the boundaries of reality and demystify 
>all this hocus-pocus.

Oh dear, Steve.

Strikes me you don't really understand the role RFC's play. they make
sure that everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet. All servers --
be they SMTP, POP3, NTTP, HTTP etc -- assume that the clients use the
same protocol. Fuck up that protocol and you ask for trouble. What
defines the protocol?  -- the RFCs.

May I suggest that you mug up on the subject.  The fact that you had to
have  some of the protocol explained to you by 
Message-ID: <Xns90C5E24F316A6itsmeitsQ@127.0.0.1>
shows some <ahem> basic lack of knowledge.

One of the reasons why Micro$oft have got such a bad name with S/W such
as OE is the fact they flout RFCs 'n' all :-)

-- 
Mitch
0
Mitch
6/22/2001 9:55:00 AM
On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:02:12 -0700, Steve Gibson enlightened us all
with:

>Mitch,
[..]

>> If the intention is to save space -- I would have thought that he would
>> be better served by embarking on a crusade to teach people how to edit
>> properly. IOW, how many lines are 'wasted' on reply-to headers compared
>> with a post which has a 3 line reply and the whole of the previous post
>> tagged on after it?
>
>No Mitch.  The intention is not to save space.  The intention is to 
>find a minimally optimal solution ... for its own sake.

May I draw your attention to the following from the post with which you
launched this thread

| If we were expiring all articles I wouldn't care, but everyone wants 
| to keep everything posted here forever, so those headers will forever 
| consume space.  I want to zap'em on the way in.

[..]

>> And how on earth can a 'Reply-to' header be regarded as non-standard?

>Not non-standard Mitch ... only potentially unnecessary.  I now 
>understand why it isn't.  But had I not explored it, I would not have 
>known.  Fortunately, the people here have been willing to explain it 
>to me in simple sentences with small words.  So now ... I got it.

And if you had realised the importance of RFCs, where things are
explained ...  :-)

-- 
Mitch
0
Mitch
6/22/2001 10:00:00 AM
"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:MPG.159c529ae45a5d149897b1@207.71.92.194...

> Since I have not yet written the Cecil-Id relocator, which would move
> your Cecil-ID into its own header BEFORE zapping any existing "X-No-
> Archive" header, your Cecil-ID is getting blasted for the time being.

Hi Steve,

thanks for working on it. As you can see from my headers, I found a
temporary "work around" (never know at the moment though, how exactly posted
headers will "end up" :-). I am confident, you will find a solution for all
of us, who are using a patched OE.

HiMan
0
HiMan
6/22/2001 10:11:00 AM
Steve Gibson wrote:

>Again ... I couldn't care less about what "might happen" and what 
>"might not work".  It's not like we're developing mission critical deep 
>space hibernation management software here ... where a mistake will 
>kill our hibernating crew three years out on their 700-year mission to 
>a far star.
>
>We're just farting around with some newsreading stuff!  I think it's 
>FUN ... and many of you are quoting the scriptures, getting out the 
>garlic, and warning of retribution from the spirit world.  What's the 
>fun in running scared?????
>
>                       Let's BREAK something!!!
>
>... only then will be find out how it really works!

Aha - I'm seeing where you are coming from more clearly - OK, I'm all 
for trimming things down till they squeak.  You wind up with the 
'neatest' approach then.  However, I will complain forthrightly if it 
breaks anything for me, or makes any part of participating here less 
user-friendly!  <g>

Be generous what you receive, and strict in what you transmit...

-- 
Jim Crowther
"It's MY computer"
<http://pchelpers.org>
<http://website.lineone.net/~legal.defence.fund/>
0
Jim
6/22/2001 10:19:00 AM
  wrote:

>Note that it is the FROM field which threads our articles together and 
>shows our authorship in the thread views ... so of course we need it. 
>But there is no need for it to contain anything other than the handle 
>the user wants to use as their personal "moniker."

So, the raw text of your headers shows:

From: Steve Gibson

which is shown here in the short-form headers as:

From:   SteveGibson@?.?.invalid

which results in no name being shown in the attribution.  This is 
because (according to the RFCs) a 'From: ' field MUST include an e-mail 
address, and MAY include a name as well.

Try putting your name in quotes, i.e.:

From: "Steve Gibson"

and lets see what happens.  Note that if I try to send a 'From: ' field 
with no e-mail address, this is prevented by this "generous in what it 
receives, strict in what it sends" software, and the outgoing message 
contains:

From: JimCrowther@?.invalid

which being an e-mail address and not a name (although it started out as 
Jim Crowther) may confuse your name-only header generator...

-- 
Jim Crowther
"It's MY computer"
<http://pchelpers.org>
<http://website.lineone.net/~legal.defence.fund/>
0
Jim
6/22/2001 10:43:00 AM
On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 at 22:36:11, Steve Gibson wrote in grc.news.feedback
(Reference: <MPG.159c79294040698c9897bd@207.71.92.194>)


>With *ALL* due respect ›Q‹ -- and I really do mean that -- I don't 
>give a shit what the RFC's say.  With everyone's help and feedback here 
>we are going to explore the boundaries of reality and demystify all 
>this hocus-pocus.

But, with respect, Steve, the writers of the software which we use to 
read your newsgroups write that software in accord with the RFCs. If the 
RFCs provide for a From: header to be present, they would be quite 
justified in not passing the message. I don't know if any  newsreader 
does that, I don't know if any newsreader will ever do that, but it is 
foolhardy to remove a standard requirement which may prevent the article 
being read. It doesn't matter if you can get away with it now, you must 
know the dangers of tweaking program code to work on one particular 
configuration rather than follow the specifications of the general group 
for which the software is written. This is at least as important.

Dispense with a requirement of the RFC and  you are a non-standard news 
service. Your credibility is damaged.
-- 
John Underwood
Use the Reply To: address for the next 30 days
After that write to john@the-underwoods.org.uk
Do not send anything to the From: address
0
John
6/22/2001 11:39:00 AM
"HiMan" <Please@ReplyInForum.invalid> wrote in message
news:9gq3ri$bkr$1@news.grc.com...
>
> "Karl Tremain" <x@x.x> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:9gq2cq$a3f$1@news.grc.com...
>
> > plz keep Reply-To for ALL the reasons as stated by the others and i also
> > LOVE the idea of finding and moving the cecil-id to its own header :)
>
> Hi Karl,
>
> are you using a Cecil ID and if yes, do you see it at the moment? Looks to
> me as if, since today, mine is stripped from the header (I have it in my
> Organization field). Yesterday I tested Cecil and it worked just fine.
Today
> "not authorized", which is not surprising, as there is no more Cecil ID in
> my posts.
>
> Am I missing something? ( Maybe not enough coffee yet).
>
> HiMan
>


hmm...  yes, my cecil-id is in the organization field in outlook express, it
seems that it was stripped as you say - bummer! :(

oh steve!!! ;)

KArl
0
Karl
6/22/2001 12:37:00 PM
"Jim Crowther"@?.invalid wrote:
> 
>   wrote:
> 
> >Note that it is the FROM field which threads our articles together and
> >shows our authorship in the thread views ... so of course we need it.
> >But there is no need for it to contain anything other than the handle
> >the user wants to use as their personal "moniker."
> 
> So, the raw text of your headers shows:
> 
> From: Steve Gibson
> 
> which is shown here in the short-form headers as:
> 
> From:   SteveGibson@?.?.invalid
> 
> which results in no name being shown in the attribution.  This is
> because (according to the RFCs) a 'From: ' field MUST include an e-mail
> address, and MAY include a name as well.
> 
> Try putting your name in quotes, i.e.:
> 
> From: "Steve Gibson"
> 
> and lets see what happens.  Note that if I try to send a 'From: ' field
> with no e-mail address, this is prevented by this "generous in what it
> receives, strict in what it sends" software, and the outgoing message
> contains:
> 
> From: JimCrowther@?.invalid
> 
> which being an e-mail address and not a name (although it started out as
> Jim Crowther) may confuse your name-only header generator...

Netscrape 4.61 wont allow me to have no email address in my From
address. Or to be more correct, I can set it that way, but it pops up an
error if I try to send a message that way.

-- 
_____________________________________________________________________
 _ __  __                        Remember the Legend - Dale Earnhardt
| '  \/ _|
|_|_|_\__|                                      http://pchelpers.org/

--+ The only constant in the universe is change +--
--+       Always stop and smell the roses       +--

<<==-- Drain the WATER from my email to reply --==>>
0
mc
6/22/2001 12:38:00 PM
In article <MPG.159c79294040698c9897bd@207.71.92.194>, Steve Gibson 
said...
> Again ... I couldn't care less about what "might happen" and what 
> "might not work".  It's not like we're developing mission critical 
> deep space hibernation management software here ... where a mistake 
> will kill our hibernating crew three years out on their 700-year 
> mission to a far star.

Hey! I was looking forward to Freezarino.

-- 
Milly
0
Milly
6/22/2001 1:18:00 PM
Posted by , in article news:MPG.159c92fa43ab41749897cf@207.71.92.194:

> �Q� ...
> 
> I really hoped that you would take my note as LESS a reply to you 
> than as a general summation of my sentiment on the whole issue.
> I am sorry if I put you on the defensive, it was NOT my intent.

I'm cool now.  And I did appreciate what you had to say;  now I've got a 
much better grip on your goals and attituded, and I think everybody else 
does too.  Thanks.

> One of the key values of these groups is to allow me to "try things 
> out". I learned a LOT by proposing that "From" should be stripped.
> 
> And ... in fact ... I'm using the RESULT of all that thrashing about 
> and "boundary-testing" research right now.  Check out my headers 
> here!  <<grin>>
> 
> I think this is the perfect solution.  The From header exists -- as 
> it must -- but it carries no eMail address whatsoever.  Just my name, 
> my handle, my moniker ... whatever.  So there is *nothing* for the 
> eMail address harvesters to suck up.  And the Reply-To field carries 
> my eMail address (with or without a redundant name, I don't care, but 
> I chose not to have one.)

Your name from the From shows up fine in my header overview pane in 
Xnews, so I'm fairly happy.  Attribution is blank, but maybe that can be 
fixed with quotes as Jim suggested. 

-- 
�Q�

When a subject becomes totally obsolete we make it a required course.
     - P. Drucker
0
ouroboros
6/22/2001 2:26:00 PM
On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 at 00:26:18,  wrote in grc.news.feedback
(Reference: <MPG.159c92fa43ab41749897cf@207.71.92.194>)


>If we can't all agree on "From header cleansing" then I'll come up with 
>a way for individual users to request cleansing while anyone who wants 
>to stay loyal to the RFC's will be able to. That's no problem for me.

So I get the choice that the message I receive will conform to the RFCs? 
That is more important to me than what happens to my outgoing messages, 
I don't mind if I can't read them back, I know what they say, it is 
other people's messages I want to receive.
Note, incidentally to what has happened to your attribution. I use the 
from header to identify the originator of the message. I now have to 
change that and find something else to do it, for these groups - if 
there is anything else.

My system assumes RFC compliant input, if it doesn't get it, it behaves 
in an unpredictable and not always acceptable way.

This is unacceptable.
-- 
John Underwood
Use the Reply To: address for the next 30 days
After that write to john@the-underwoods.org.uk
Do not send anything to the From: address
0
John
6/22/2001 2:32:00 PM
On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 at 02:00:28, abujamal wrote in grc.news.feedback
(Reference: <3B33092C.7B783531@earthlink.net>)


>   I get spam with no "to" and no "from" headers.
>
>
Ah, so if spammers break the rules we can all do so?
-- 
John Underwood
Use the Reply To: address for the next 30 days
After that write to john@the-underwoods.org.uk
Do not send anything to the From: address
0
John
6/22/2001 2:33:00 PM
On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 at 10:55:19, Mitch B wrote in grc.news.feedback
(Reference: <3b330fab.26833672@mitchb.org>)


>One of the reasons why Micro$oft have got such a bad name with S/W such 
>as OE is the fact they flout RFCs 'n' all :-)

Hear! Hear!

Pursue this path and I bow out. I spend a lot of time trying to persuade 
people to apply good nettiquette and comply with RFCs to the benefit of 
us all. I will not have my name appearing in association with somebody 
who not only states that he doesn't "give a shit what the RFC's say" but 
actually configures his system  to conflict with them.

I do not, for example think it is a matter of vital necessity to drive 
on the right hand side of the road - usually I drive on the left. But in 
certain conditions I will do it because that is the expected behaviour. 
Those who refuse to follow rules just because they have some kind of 
fetish about accepting authority show themselves enslaved to something 
far worse - their own eccentric pedantry.
-- 
John Underwood
Use the Reply To: address for the next 30 days
After that write to john@the-underwoods.org.uk
Do not send anything to the From: address
0
John
6/22/2001 2:38:00 PM
On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 at 20:53:00, Ash wrote in grc.news.feedback
(Reference: <9gtj87$102v$1@news.grc.com>)


>This is another reason why I don't use a real email "Reply:" as most 
>newsreaders are configured to reprint the Reply: line

Your reply address is only obtained by spammers if they fetch full 
headers. In the wide experience of those with whom I have discussed 
this, they don't They certainly don't obtain addresses from the body of 
the text. Just imagine the payback in terms of addresses found compared 
with text read.

Produce a single item of an address harvested (other than by hand) to a 
spammers list from a Reply To: address either in your header or the body 
of a message.

-- 
John Underwood
Use the Reply To: address for the next 30 days
After that write to john@the-underwoods.org.uk
Do not send anything to the From: address
0
John
6/22/2001 2:42:00 PM
In message <Xns90C85C407E778itsmeitsQ@127.0.0.1>, ›Q‹
<ouroboros@apexmail.com.invalid> writes
>Posted by , in article news:MPG.159c92fa43ab41749897cf@207.71.92.194:
>
[]
>> I think this is the perfect solution.  The From header exists -- as
>> it must -- but it carries no eMail address whatsoever.  Just my name,
>> my handle, my moniker ... whatever.  So there is *nothing* for the
>> eMail address harvesters to suck up.  And the Reply-To field carries
>> my eMail address (with or without a redundant name, I don't care, but
>> I chose not to have one.)
>
>Your name from the From shows up fine in my header overview pane in
>Xnews, so I'm fairly happy.  Attribution is blank, but maybe that can be
>fixed with quotes as Jim suggested.
>
Just tested it - no go.

Just a note of the RFCs.  As I understand it, the folk who contribute to
the RFCs have already tried to keep the number of standard headers down
to a minimum, and their well-defined usage should be understood by all
clients[1].  To try to minimise them further can only lead to grief.

One point is that there is no way of telling which standard headers are
absolutely required by various clients, and which ones are not, so
fiddling with any of them could show up the grc.com server as 'broken',
and 'clueless', which would be sad.

I recommend all who wish to comment sensibly on this, and that's you as
well, Steve <g>, to read:

<http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-usefor-article-04.txt>

[1]     Yes, I know MS software ignores them - that's why it's crap,
        won't wrap properly, can't do sig separators, insists (wrongly)
        on headers being in a certain order, encourages top-posting/full
        quoting, plus the rest of the 200+ broken bits...

-- 
Jim (Cruncher) Crowther                      "It's MY computer"
*               It's our turn to help pchelp                  *
*                  <http://pchelpers.org>                     *
*    <http://www.cozmikshirts.co.uk/rooms/pchelpers.shtml>    *
0
Jim
6/22/2001 2:43:00 PM
I agree. And then, we will know what can be done, and you can sell the
secrets to the rest of the world :-)

--
- -
When replying by Email, set the priority to "Low" (this will filter it to
the proper folder in OE).
This post is not to be copied to any server other than news.grc.com, or any
news archive server run by Gibson Research Corporation.

"Steve Gibson" wrote:
> We're just farting around with some newsreading stuff!  I think it's
> FUN ... and many of you are quoting the scriptures, getting out the
> garlic, and warning of retribution from the spirit world.  What's the
> fun in running scared?????
>
> Let's BREAK something!!!
>
> ... only then will be find out how it really works!
>
> --
> _________________________________________________________________
> Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Some
6/22/2001 2:52:00 PM
On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 at 18:53:21, Steve Gibson wrote in grc.news.feedback
(Reference: <MPG.159c44ee38e64e0b9897a1@207.71.92.194>)


>Unless I'm misunderstanding you Jim, this argument doesn't hold.
>
>Users are welcome to have whatever headers their ISP requires for 
>outbound mail and news ... but that in no way, that I can see, creates 
>a burden on me to retain any such headers which are unnecessary -- by 
>virtue of the fact that they were forced to include those otherwise 
>unnecessary headers to satisfy their ISP.

I object to the ISPs that impose this unnecessary restriction on their 
clients (they are imposing additional burdens beyond those of the RFCs 
which is at least as  bad as not conforming to the requirements).

However, Steve is right on this point. The Sender header is needed by 
the sender to get  through the ridiculous imposition of the ISP. Having 
got the message out, there is no need for the header to be retained.

There may be other circumstances in which it is necessary or useful for 
the Sender to be known if  it is different from the From: or Reply To: 
addresses. I assume that if something has been provided for in the RFCs 
it has been provided for a very good reason. The reason Jim gives may 
not apply for messages once they have been sent to you. Are you able to 
say there will never be a circumstance in which this RFC provision will 
not be needed by the sender of the message - and needed to appear in the 
published output? I can't think of one. There may not be one. I am 
stating I don't know the answer to that question, does anyone else? Can 
anyone state that there will not be a need?

-- 
John Underwood
Use the Reply To: address for the next 30 days
After that write to john@the-underwoods.org.uk
Do not send anything to the From: address
0
John
6/22/2001 2:52:00 PM
On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 at 19:03:32, Steve Gibson wrote in grc.news.feedback
(Reference: <MPG.159c474c7097a9ba9897a3@207.71.92.194>)


>I *only* want to know that I didn't let a potentially cool solution 
>pass me by.

You may have to accept the fact that some people may not want to have 
their messages presented in ways over which they have no control which 
is the result if the mandatory headers are altered.
-- 
John Underwood
Use the Reply To: address for the next 30 days
After that write to john@the-underwoods.org.uk
Do not send anything to the From: address
0
John
6/22/2001 2:53:00 PM
Jim,

> Aha - I'm seeing where you are coming from more clearly - OK,
> I'm all for trimming things down till they squeak.

:)

> You wind up with the 'neatest' approach then.  However, I will
> complain forthrightly if it breaks anything for me, or makes
> any part of participating here less user-friendly!  <g>

Good!  That's what I want.

> Be generous what you receive, and strict in what you transmit...

What MANY people here seem not to "get" is that we are not a "peer" 
on the USENET.  If we WERE, I would have a VERY different approach 
and feeling about all this.

But we're a stand-alone, non-replicating, non-peer ... so there's 
ABSOLUTELY no good reason why we should not make up any rules that we 
want.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 6:36:00 PM
> >One of the reasons why Micro$oft have got such a bad name
> >with S/W such as OE is the fact they flout RFCs 'n' all :-)
> 
> Hear! Hear!
> 
> Pursue this path and I bow out.

Fine John ... there's the door.  Please feel free to use it.

> I spend a lot of time trying to persuade people to apply good
> nettiquette and comply with RFCs to the benefit of us all. I
> will not have my name appearing in association with somebody 
> who not only states that he doesn't "give a shit what the RFC's
> say" but actually configures his system  to conflict with them.

Then I presume this will be your last posting, because I proudly 
stand by what I have said.  You and I are obviously at loggerheads 
here.  You are welcome to go setup your own shrine to the RFC's 
because you sure won't find one here.

> Those who refuse to follow rules just because they have some
> kind of fetish about accepting authority show themselves
> enslaved to something far worse - their own eccentric pedantry.

Sign me up on your way out.

I think for myself and independently consider the implications of my 
actions and decisions.  The fact that this news server -- MY news 
server -- out of the box followed a set of RFC guidelines in no way 
dictates -- to me -- that it must continue to do so.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 6:42:00 PM
John,

> But, with respect, Steve, the writers of the software which we
> use to read your newsgroups write that software in accord with
> the RFCs. If the RFCs provide for a From: header to be present,
> they would be quite justified in not passing the message.

I completely agree.  Find me such a newsreader, don't give me 
fearful, cowering, mumbo-jumbo about what MIGHT happen IF we do such-
and-such.  So me, don't threaten me.

> I don't know if any newsreader does that, I don't know if any
> newsreader will ever do that, ...

Ah!, but let's all worry about that, shall we?

> ... but it is foolhardy to remove a standard requirement which
> may prevent the article being read. It doesn't matter if you can
> get away with it now, you must know the dangers of tweaking
> program code to work on one particular configuration rather than
> follow the specifications of the general group for which the
> software is written. This is at least as important.

We'll find out.

Are you sure you don't want to stay around to gloat when I'm shown 
wrong?  <<grin>>

> Dispense with a requirement of the RFC and you are a
> non-standard news service. Your credibility is damaged.

What bullshit.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 6:47:00 PM
Hi Jim,

> So, the raw text of your headers shows:
> 
> From: Steve Gibson
> 
> which is shown here in the short-form headers as:
> 
> From:   SteveGibson@?.?.invalid

Interesting.  Thanks!!

> Try putting your name in quotes, i.e.:
> 
> From: "Steve Gibson"
> 
> and lets see what happens.

Sounds to me as though that's not going to work either ... but I'll 
give it a try.  :)

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 6:54:00 PM
Jim,

Well ... this posting has double-quotes around the name in the From 
header ... but I imagine that it's still going to annoy your Turnpike 
reader.

And, in any event, the double quotes appear in the "From" thread pane 
of Gravity, so that's as annoying as being forced to have a "fake" 
eMail address in the "From" field!

:)

Looks like there's not much that can be done to keep all newsreaders 
happy while also cleaning up deliberately forged and erroneous 
headers.

Oh well.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 7:02:00 PM
<Steve Gibson> wrote in message
news:MPG.159d342dbfdc9e269897d8@207.71.92.194...
> Sounds to me as though that's not going to work either ... but I'll
> give it a try.  :)

Both of the headers look the same in OE:
From: Steve Gibson
0
Mike
6/22/2001 7:03:00 PM
I said I wouldn't mention the RFCs again, but I can't seem to help trying 
to make a case again. <g>  

Of course, a blanket 'imo' applies to all that follows here.

This ain't USENET, and RFC 1036 doesn't govern news.grc.com.  I don't 
care whether or not n.g.c conforms to the RFCs per se.

Wrt the RFC-required headers, I'm in favor of leaving them completely 
alone because they may screw up newsreaders.  A quick look at 
newsreaders.com shows that there are at least 47 readers for Windows 
alone.  Once those headers are altered or stripped, there will be no way 
to tell what got broken without testing dozens, maybe hundreds, of 
newsreaders, not to mention different builds of them.  Steve, I'd be 
happier with your lack of concern about what 'may' get broken if I 
thought there were an efficient way of telling what *does* get broken.

Have you considered doing away with 'Path'?  ;-)

-- 
�Q�

If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the precipitate.
�����- S. Wright
0
ouroboros
6/22/2001 7:03:00 PM
Steve Gibson wrote in message ...
>
>> >One of the reasons why Micro$oft have got such a bad name
>> >with S/W such as OE is the fact they flout RFCs 'n' all :-)
>>
>> Hear! Hear!
>>
>> Pursue this path and I bow out.
>
>Fine John ... there's the door.  Please feel free to use it.
>
>> I spend a lot of time trying to persuade people to apply good
>> nettiquette and comply with RFCs to the benefit of us all. I
>> will not have my name appearing in association with somebody
>> who not only states that he doesn't "give a shit what the RFC's
>> say" but actually configures his system  to conflict with them.
>
>Then I presume this will be your last posting, because I proudly
>stand by what I have said.  You and I are obviously at loggerheads
>here.  You are welcome to go setup your own shrine to the RFC's
>because you sure won't find one here.
>
>> Those who refuse to follow rules just because they have some
>> kind of fetish about accepting authority show themselves
>> enslaved to something far worse - their own eccentric pedantry.
>
>Sign me up on your way out.
>
>I think for myself and independently consider the implications of my
>actions and decisions.  The fact that this news server -- MY news
>server -- out of the box followed a set of RFC guidelines in no way
>dictates -- to me -- that it must continue to do so.
>
>--
>_________________________________________________________________
>Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >

I know I should just keep reading and keep my mouth shut...but I can't
refuse such a golden opportunity.

Tell 'em how it is, Steve!  heh heh heh

Dean Craft
0
Dean
6/22/2001 7:05:00 PM
"Mike Meyer" <mag7mike@SPAMLESShotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9h04nt$4lk$1@news.grc.com...
> Both of the headers look the same in OE:
> From: Steve Gibson

Oops, ignore that.  I just saw your From: "Steve Gibson" message.  That one
appears correctly in OE as well...
0
Mike
6/22/2001 7:08:00 PM
Posted by , in article news:MPG.159d36074e7692b89897da@207.71.92.194:

Still Xnews won't attribute.

-- 
�Q�

When a subject becomes totally obsolete we make it a required course.
     - P. Drucker
0
ouroboros
6/22/2001 7:10:00 PM
In message <MPG.159d3011927cff3b9897d5@207.71.92.194>, 
SteveGibson@?.?.invalid writes
>Jim,
>
>> Aha - I'm seeing where you are coming from more clearly - OK,
>> I'm all for trimming things down till they squeak.
>
>:)
>
>> You wind up with the 'neatest' approach then.  However, I will
>> complain forthrightly if it breaks anything for me, or makes
>> any part of participating here less user-friendly!  <g>
>
>Good!  That's what I want.
>
<g>

>> Be generous what you receive, and strict in what you transmit...
>
>What MANY people here seem not to "get" is that we are not a "peer"
>on the USENET.  If we WERE, I would have a VERY different approach
>and feeling about all this.
>
I do realise that...

>But we're a stand-alone, non-replicating, non-peer ... so there's
>ABSOLUTELY no good reason why we should not make up any rules that we
>want.
>
.... but first examine the ones that are there.  *YOU* may not need them, 
but how do you know what other clients/ISPs/servers will make of the 
messages so produced as they come back from your server.  The list of 
standard headers is pretty small, and very well defined.  You have every 
right to sling out what you don't want, but as we've seen before with 
your email-address-less 'From: ' header, the results can be 
unpredictable.

Experiment by all means, but my gut feeling is you are re-inventing the 
wheel.

That's no bad thing, by the way, I approve of starting from first 
principles.  You may wind up with the only set of guaranteed working 
headers as being those already thrashed out before ... or you may not.

I'll be interested to see.

But, for goodness sake don't get labelled as someone who thinks the 
RFC's are a nonsense - for UseNet they are vital, even if MS ignores 
them.  I do understand that this is NOT UseNet, but even to give the 
slightest hint to the nay-sayers that you think MS-wise is surely not 
good PR.

-- 
Jim (Cruncher) Crowther                      "It's MY computer"
*               It's our turn to help pchelp                  *
*                  <http://pchelpers.org>                     *
*    <http://www.cozmikshirts.co.uk/rooms/pchelpers.shtml>    *
0
Jim
6/22/2001 7:18:00 PM
John Underwood <spamfromGRC@the-underwoods.org.uk> wrote in message
news:WR1cSUKau1M7EAW2@the-underwoods.org.uk...
> On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 at 18:53:21, Steve Gibson wrote in grc.news.feedback
> (Reference: <MPG.159c44ee38e64e0b9897a1@207.71.92.194>)
>
<snip>
> There may be other circumstances in which it is necessary or useful for
> the Sender to be known if  it is different from the From: or Reply To:
> addresses. I assume that if something has been provided for in the RFCs
> it has been provided for a very good reason. The reason Jim gives may
> not apply for messages once they have been sent to you. Are you able to
> say there will never be a circumstance in which this RFC provision will
> not be needed by the sender of the message - and needed to appear in the
> published output? I can't think of one. There may not be one. I am
> stating I don't know the answer to that question, does anyone else? Can
> anyone state that there will not be a need?

I don't know if it is relevant for newsgroup messages, but in the e-mail
system I
use at work, a Sent-By, or Sender (I'm unsure of the correct title) header
is used
when a message is sent by a secretary on behalf of a manager, for instance.

Peter.
0
Peter
6/22/2001 7:22:00 PM
In message <MPG.159d329465b1837a9897d7@207.71.92.194>, 
SteveGibson@?.?.invalid writes
>John,
>
[]
>> Dispense with a requirement of the RFC and you are a
>> non-standard news service. Your credibility is damaged.
>
>What bullshit.
>
Steve, you can't control how other folk make up their minds.  A lot of 
those who you wish to convince to listen to you over XP etc are the very 
same folk who will see this (RFC) issue as just another example of GRC 
wackiness, and ignore the MUCH more important message.

Cut down on the 'me2' posts which quote 19kB of repeated messages. 
*That's* the way to gain some credence.  Really!

Fiddle with headers another day...

-- 
Jim (Cruncher) Crowther                      "It's MY computer"
*               It's our turn to help pchelp                  *
*                  <http://pchelpers.org>                     *
*    <http://www.cozmikshirts.co.uk/rooms/pchelpers.shtml>    *
0
Jim
6/22/2001 7:32:00 PM
Hi Mike,

> 
> Oops, ignore that.  I just saw your From: "Steve Gibson"
> message.  That one appears correctly in OE as well...
> 

Yep ... and Gravity likes it just fine too.

But Jim's Turnpike newsreader warns him about RFC non-compliance in 
the "From" header if it lacks something that appears to be an eMail 
address. :(

Thus there's obviously the need to keep Turnpike happy even when 
common practice has become to deliberately falsify the "From" address 
in the "From" header ... JUST FOR THE SAKE of keeping the RFC's 
happy.

That's what I mean about mindlessly following standards that have 
been abused by others (Spammers) and not independently determining 
what's right in a specific situation.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 7:36:00 PM
> 
> Still Xnews won't attribute.
> 

Yep ... so Turnpike and Xnews need to be given a probably-invalid 
email address in order to comply with the RFC's.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 7:38:00 PM
Dean,

> 
> I know I should just keep reading and keep my mouth shut...
> but I can't refuse such a golden opportunity.
> 
> Tell 'em how it is, Steve!  heh heh heh
> 

Well ... the mind set being espoused by John Underwood in his recent 
postings about the RFC's is so completely antithetical to every fibre 
of who I am, the way I deliberately run my life, and -- I believe -- 
the key to continual success in my endeavors, that it did push a few 
readily-accessible buttons.  <<grin>>

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 7:42:00 PM
Salaam!

John Underwood wrote:

> abujamal wrote ...
>> I get spam with no "to" and no "from" headers.

> Ah, so if spammers break the rules we can all do so?

   Perhaps you have not noticed that we are all here basically because
where the Web is concerned there ARE NO RULES.  Were there "rules," we
would not need to worry about the security of our machines, or about
spammers harvesting our email addresses, or hackers harvesting credit
card numbers or passwords:  they'd never get past the rules in the first
place.

   "RFC" appears to stand for "Request For Comment."  What emerges are
recommendations and "standards" that very, very few companies regard as
binding in any way -- when Microsoft and Netscape want to do something
different that ignores or interferes with the operation of
"RFC-compliant" software, they just go ahead and do it and don't appear
to care a whit.

   So we're not talking about "rules" in the slightest.  Steve is
talking about something completely unknown to the industry, to wit,
"WHAT WORKS."

   I'm merely pointing out that spammers routinely send emails that
reach my box without my name or email address being found anywhere in
the email.  Nowhere.  Nor, of course, is there anything leading back to
the spammer.  For them, it works.  That's all I'm pointing out --
RFC-non-compliance does NOT mean it won't work.

   You and all the rest can make up any "rules" you can imagine, and
usually do.  That does not mean that anyone else is required to regard
them as rules.  And just in case you hadn't noticed:  most don't.

   I have yet to fathom the mentality of a rule maker.  I can't imagine
a more vain or futile undertaking, as history clearly shows.

> John Underwood

was-salaam,
abujamal
-- 
news://news.pchelponline.org
0
abujamal
6/22/2001 7:44:00 PM
�Q�,

Thanks to the feedback from you and Jim, it is becoming clear that, 
in the case of the "From" header, Turnpike and Xnews are twitchy 
about needing to be fed a probably-bogus eMail address.

That strikes me as unfortunate, but unavoidable.

And ... now that we are actually gaining some EXPERIENCE in these 
sensitivities, it's also becoming clear that this whole header-
stripping crusade of mine is, indeed, ill advised.

I have NO problem with acknowledging that. I just wanted to know FOR 
MYSELF that it was, rather than accepting it as some gospel from On 
High.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 7:49:00 PM
Salaam!

"Steve Gibson" wrote:

> ... the mind set being espoused by John Underwood in his recent
> postings about the RFC's is so completely antithetical to every
> fibre of who I am, the way I deliberately run my life, and -- I
> believe -- the key to continual success in my endeavors, that it
> did push a few readily-accessible buttons.  <<grin>>

   I'd suggest that you lose the buttons, Steve -- there is a goodly
supply of people who are incapable of making their own decisions, and
rely not only on rules but shepherds.  It has always been so, and will
continue to be so, it's part of what makes humanity an interdependent
whole.  Those who follow are no more to be disregarded on that account,
or for their pursuit of their resolutions of insecurity and indecision,
than are those who lead for their disregard of constraints that others
place upon themselves.  And those who lead into the unknown, where
others fear to go, cannot afford to have buttons that others can push
....

> Steve Gibson, at work on: < a million loose ends >

was-salaam,
abujamal
-- 
news://news.pchelponline.org
0
abujamal
6/22/2001 7:52:00 PM
John,

> You may have to accept the fact that some people may not want
> to have their messages presented in ways over which they have
> no control which is the result if the mandatory headers are
> altered.

I'm trying to untangle that sentence.  Again, John, this is filled 
with "what if's", "maybe's", and "what might happen if's".

Not even in my weakest moments will such a sentence have the effect 
upon me that you intend.  Facts I will happily deal with, mysticism 
is for others.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 7:53:00 PM
Steve, Gibson wrote:
> 
> Jim,
> 
> > Aha - I'm seeing where you are coming from more clearly - OK,
> > I'm all for trimming things down till they squeak.
> 
> :)
> 
> > You wind up with the 'neatest' approach then.  However, I will
> > complain forthrightly if it breaks anything for me, or makes
> > any part of participating here less user-friendly!  <g>
> 
> Good!  That's what I want.
> 
> > Be generous what you receive, and strict in what you transmit...
> 
> What MANY people here seem not to "get" is that we are not a "peer"
> on the USENET.  If we WERE, I would have a VERY different approach
> and feeling about all this.
> 
> But we're a stand-alone, non-replicating, non-peer ... so there's
> ABSOLUTELY no good reason why we should not make up any rules that we
> want.

As elsewhere posted ... YES THERE IS ... the simple fact that we all use
the exact same clients to access your groups as we do usenet groups, and
many of those clients have very stubborn behaviors ~most~ of which are
directly related to how well the content that it sends/receives conforms
to existing RFC's. Please do not mess with the RFC Required headers.

> 
> --
> _________________________________________________________________
> Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >


-- 
_____________________________________________________________________
 _ __  __                        Remember the Legend - Dale Earnhardt
| '  \/ _|
|_|_|_\__|                                      http://pchelpers.org/

--+ The only constant in the universe is change +--
--+       Always stop and smell the roses       +--

<<==-- Drain the WATER from my email to reply --==>>
0
mc
6/22/2001 7:55:00 PM
Steve, Gibson wrote:
> 
> > >One of the reasons why Micro$oft have got such a bad name
> > >with S/W such as OE is the fact they flout RFCs 'n' all :-)
> >
> > Hear! Hear!
> >
> > Pursue this path and I bow out.
> 
> Fine John ... there's the door.  Please feel free to use it.
> 

Sadly I might have to follow him. =(

This attitude speaks rather badly of you Steve. I can only assume you
are either currently in a bad mood, or you have an unannounced agenda.

-- 
_____________________________________________________________________
 _ __  __                        Remember the Legend - Dale Earnhardt
| '  \/ _|
|_|_|_\__|                                      http://pchelpers.org/

--+ The only constant in the universe is change +--
--+       Always stop and smell the roses       +--

<<==-- Drain the WATER from my email to reply --==>>
0
mc
6/22/2001 7:58:00 PM
Mitch,

> And if you had realised the importance of RFCs, where things
> are explained ...  :-)

Many technical sins have been, and are, committed in the name of 
"forward compatibility".

The RFC's governing USENET have only a tangential and passing bearing 
on the operation of a non-replicating, totally private, bulletin 
board system which happens to use Usenet newsreaders as its clients.

The ONLY QUESTION that matters to me is whether the clients that 
people have are able to post and read here.  If we achieve that we're 
all set.  :)

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 7:58:00 PM
Salaam!

Steve Gibson wrote:

> I'm trying to untangle that sentence.  Again, John, this is filled
> with "what if's", "maybe's", and "what might happen if's".

> John [wrote]:
>> You may have to accept the fact that

   Translation:  just eliminate the phrase and 

>> some people may not want to have their messages presented
>> in ways over which they have no control

   Substitute "do" for "may" because there are, in fact, some such
people.  Of course, they never post anything for that very reason.

>> which is the result if the mandatory headers are
>> altered.

   And this bit of speculation *could* be descriptive of some subset of
those who don't post for that reason.

> Not even in my weakest moments will such a sentence
> have the effect upon me that you intend.

   You will not reassure us that you will unwaveringly hold to extreme
conservatism, never venturing outside the realm of completely structured
and contained behavior? 

> Facts I will happily deal with,
> mysticism is for others.

   That's not mysticism, it's xenophobia.

> Steve Gibson, at work on: < a million loose ends >

was-salaam,
abujamal
-- 
news://news.pchelponline.org
0
abujamal
6/22/2001 8:09:00 PM
In message <MPG.159d3e3567fd944b9897db@207.71.92.194>, "Steve 
Gibson"@?.?.invalid writes
>Hi Mike,
>
>>
>> Oops, ignore that.  I just saw your From: "Steve Gibson"
>> message.  That one appears correctly in OE as well...
>>
>
>Yep ... and Gravity likes it just fine too.
>
>But Jim's Turnpike newsreader warns him about RFC non-compliance in
>the "From" header if it lacks something that appears to be an eMail
>address. :(
>
On incoming messages it invents one - that's not good either, so this 
will be reported to the development team.  By trying something 
'non-standard' you have already highlighted an anomaly - no bad thing.

>Thus there's obviously the need to keep Turnpike happy even when
>common practice has become to deliberately falsify the "From" address
>in the "From" header ... JUST FOR THE SAKE of keeping the RFC's
>happy.
>
The RFCs are rather unemotional....  they state that a valid e-mail 
address must be there.  Most ISPs AUPs and ToS's also mandate not just a 
valid address, but one the poster has permission to use.  That must be 
borne in mind as well.  Hmm..

>That's what I mean about mindlessly following standards that have
>been abused by others (Spammers) and not independently determining
>what's right in a specific situation.
>
I can see some merit in your idea of just the name or nick-name in the 
'From: ' header.  However, it might not survive all transports, and 
certainly won't be liked by some clients, although TP's response was 
particularly nonsensical.

-- 
Jim (Cruncher) Crowther                      "It's MY computer"
*               It's our turn to help pchelp                  *
*                  <http://pchelpers.org>                     *
*    <http://www.cozmikshirts.co.uk/rooms/pchelpers.shtml>    *
0
Jim
6/22/2001 8:15:00 PM
Jim,

> Steve, you can't control how other folk make up their minds.
> A lot of those who you wish to convince to listen to you over
> XP etc are the very same folk who will see this (RFC) issue as
> just another example of GRC wackiness, and ignore the MUCH
> more important message.
> 
> Cut down on the 'me2' posts which quote 19kB of repeated
> messages. *That's* the way to gain some credence.  Really!

But then I'd be accused of practicing censorship.  People would say 
that this GRC news server was "RFC non-compliant" because it's 
regulating the content that can be posted. (Not that I'd care much 
what anyone said about lack of local RFC compliance! :)

But seriously ...

The only way I can think of automating this would be to analyze the 
body of a posting to determine the percentage of the bulk that was 
quoted from a previous posting versus "new content" ...

.... and then reject (with a nice an polite note of course) any 
postings where more than some pre-set percentage of the total content 
was quoting.

Sure ... I *COULD* do that ... but wouldn't people freak out??

> Fiddle with headers another day...

I just wanted to know if I could!  <<grin>>

Doesn't look like I can as much as I had hoped to.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 8:16:00 PM
> Sadly I might have to follow him. =(
> 
> This attitude speaks rather badly of you Steve. I can only
> assume you are either currently in a bad mood, or you have
> an unannounced agenda.

No, I'm truly annoyed by what I perceive as the Orwellian
blindness of this attitude, and I think that I always will be.

Perhaps I'm overly sensitive to it at the moment because it strikes 
me as only a slight variation from the "Full raw sockets are good 
because they are a standard" argument.

.... and I rarely, if ever, have unannounced agendas.  My agendas
-- which I certainly have -- are generally loudly announced and
well known to all.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 8:21:00 PM
mc,

> Please do not mess with the RFC Required headers.

It looks like I can't anyway.  :)

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 8:23:00 PM
Posted by , in article news:MPG.159d4109901b8e709897de@207.71.92.194:

> �Q�,
> 
> Thanks to the feedback from you and Jim, it is becoming clear that, 
> in the case of the "From" header, Turnpike and Xnews are twitchy 
> about needing to be fed a probably-bogus eMail address.
> 
> That strikes me as unfortunate, but unavoidable.
> 
> And ... now that we are actually gaining some EXPERIENCE in these 
> sensitivities, it's also becoming clear that this whole header-
> stripping crusade of mine is, indeed, ill advised.
> 
> I have NO problem with acknowledging that. I just wanted to know FOR 
> MYSELF that it was, rather than accepting it as some gospel from On 
> High.

Thanks for listening.  I was concerned about your 'break it to see how it 
works' attitude because I misunderstood how you do things.  Now it's 
clear to me that you break thinks locally and test before heading into 
possible global breakage.  

Now that I'm much more familiar with how you prefer to operate, I hope I 
can provide better feedback on other GRC issues in the future.

Btw, thanks much for providing the server, bandwidth, etc., and making 
these newsgroups available to everyone.  They're truly a great resource.

-- 
�Q�

When a subject becomes totally obsolete we make it a required course.
     - P. Drucker
0
ouroboros
6/22/2001 8:25:00 PM
> I can see some merit in your idea of just the name or nick-name in the 
> 'From: ' header.  However, it might not survive all transports, and 
> certainly won't be liked by some clients, although TP's response was 
> particularly nonsensical.

And Xnews too, right?  Didn't "Q" have a problem as well??

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 8:26:00 PM
Salaam!

Steve Gibson wrote:

> The only way I can think of automating this would be to analyze
> the body of a posting to determine the percentage of the bulk
> that was quoted from a previous posting versus "new content" ...
> ... and then reject (with a nice an polite note of course) any
> postings where more than some pre-set percentage of the total
> content was quoting.

   Trivial, it would appear.

> Sure ... I *COULD* do that ... but wouldn't people freak out??

   Let me expand in a bit of detail ...

   soc.religion.islam is a moderated Usenet newsgroup "for the
discussion of Islam."  It is populated by a handful of muslim writers
and an overwhelming majority -- close to 95% -- of missionaries,
detractors, Hindus waging the Indian wars, atheists, extremists
pretending to be muslims, and trolls of every imaginable stripe.

   A post containing more than 50% of quoted material, identified by the
">" markers, is automatically rejected.

   NO ONE complains about that.  I'm on the administrative list, I see
the complaints -- they're about everything else BUT that.

   I think that if a newsgroup populated *mainly* by the enemies of the
purpose of that newsgroup will adjust to a quoting limitation, it is
just remotely possible that the reasonable folks in these grc newsgroups
might consider it as well.

> Steve Gibson, at work on: < a million loose ends >

was-salaam,
abujamal
-- 
news://news.pchelponline.org
0
abujamal
6/22/2001 9:02:00 PM
abujamal wrote in message <3B33A214.635BAAC9@earthlink.net>...
>Salaam!
>
>"Steve Gibson" wrote:
>
>> ... the mind set being espoused by John Underwood in his recent
>> postings about the RFC's is so completely antithetical to every
>> fibre of who I am, the way I deliberately run my life, and -- I
>> believe -- the key to continual success in my endeavors, that it
>> did push a few readily-accessible buttons.  <<grin>>
>
>   I'd suggest that you lose the buttons, Steve -- there is a goodly
>supply of people who are incapable of making their own decisions, and
>rely not only on rules but shepherds.  It has always been so, and will
>continue to be so, it's part of what makes humanity an interdependent
>whole.  Those who follow are no more to be disregarded on that account,
>or for their pursuit of their resolutions of insecurity and indecision,
>than are those who lead for their disregard of constraints that others
>place upon themselves.  And those who lead into the unknown, where
>others fear to go, cannot afford to have buttons that others can push
>...
>
Leaders of course have to consider those who do not take initiative in their
decision making processes.  That does not; however,  give the indecisive
liberty to attempt intimidation, ridicule and disparagement as was so
evident in the case under discussion.  Do it my way or I'm outta here is
only suitable for the school yard.

Throwing ridicule and scorn upon your host is inappropriate and smacks of
attempts to intimidate the host.  Steve has demonstrated any number of times
that he can withstand the sharp and often painful result of reasoned, even
heated, debate.  This was not a case of debate; however.  It clearly was an
attempt to force an opinion on the presumption that the speaker's absence
would in some manner diminish the stature of the host.

In addition to showing that he is only human by acknowledging that he indeed
has buttons, he has shown, in this case, that he will not abide the
arrogance of attempts to dictate his course.  There is no need to outline
the evidence that he always considers all opinions offered when he asks for
them.

I applaud his stance.

Dean Craft
0
Dean
6/22/2001 9:02:00 PM
In message <MPG.159d4784bdd849fe9897e3@207.71.92.194>, Steve Gibson
<support@grc.com> writes
>Jim,
>
[]
>> Cut down on the 'me2' posts which quote 19kB of repeated
>> messages. *That's* the way to gain some credence.  Really!
>
>But then I'd be accused of practicing censorship.  People would say
>that this GRC news server was "RFC non-compliant" because it's
>regulating the content that can be posted. (Not that I'd care much
>what anyone said about lack of local RFC compliance! :)
>
In fact discouraging those sorts of posts would be encouraging RFC
compliance - maybe that's why you been shy of doing so... <g>

>But seriously ...
>
>The only way I can think of automating this would be to analyze the
>body of a posting to determine the percentage of the bulk that was
>quoted from a previous posting versus "new content" ...

Far to much effort...

>... and then reject (with a nice an polite note of course) any
>postings where more than some pre-set percentage of the total content
>was quoting.

.... and what about the times when something is quoted *from elsewhere*
for our enlightenment?

>Sure ... I *COULD* do that ... but wouldn't people freak out??

Hmm.. There's no need to automate anything.  What has been lacking has
been your STRONG re-inforcement on the newsgroups of what you ask in
discussion.htm, namely to only quote what is necessary, and at least
quote that[1] so that context is given for anyone who sees an article in
isolation[2].

>> Fiddle with headers another day...
>
>I just wanted to know if I could!  <<grin>>

I'm glad you tried.  At least you now have learned more about your new
server, and about the (sometimes irritating) constraints you shall have
to work within.

>Doesn't look like I can as much as I had hoped to.

Nope.  Just as well, IMNSHO, but then you knew that... <G>.

[1]     Sometimes even you Steve have forgotten to quote anything...

[2]     This may not be laziness - it may be just a snatched moment on
        grc between other bits of real life.  Quoting (with some
        sensible attribution) helps for clarity and understanding, which
        is surely what we're here for - to spread a message of:

        "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

-- 
Jim (Cruncher) Crowther                      "It's MY computer"
*               It's our turn to help pchelp                  *
*                  <http://pchelpers.org>                     *
*    <http://www.cozmikshirts.co.uk/rooms/pchelpers.shtml>    *
0
Jim
6/22/2001 9:16:00 PM
Abujamal,

> 
> A post containing more than 50% of quoted material,
> identified by the ">" markers, is automatically rejected.
> 

That is now the exact policy in place -- for all NEW connections to 
the server.

If we like the "idea" but the 50% is too restrictive an can edit and 
rebuild the INN source in order to add an settable percentage option.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 9:20:00 PM
"mc" <mc@backWATERwoods.org> wrote in message
news:3B33A355.DFDCC1D9@centurytel.net...
> >
<snip>
>
> Sadly I might have to follow him. =(
>
> This attitude speaks rather badly of you Steve. I can only assume you
> are either currently in a bad mood, or you have an unannounced agenda.
>

mc,

I'm curious about your double standard. Why is it okay for you to
violate the RFCs in every message you post here, but Steve can't even
discuss it?

Ray
0
Ray
6/22/2001 9:21:00 PM
In message <9h0bpd$bo9$1@news.grc.com>, Dean Craft 
<w4ihk@mindspring.com> writes

>It clearly was an attempt to force an opinion on the presumption that 
>the speaker's absence would in some manner diminish the stature of the 
>host.

No it wasn't.  It was (as I read it) a statement that flouting the RFCs 
for newsgroups, whether UseNet or private server, was a backward step 
that he was not prepared to tacitly approve of, let alone put up with 
the added inconvenience.

It was a viewpoint from some long experience with Usenet, I happen to 
know.

However, I reckon this exercise has been quite fun.  A gentle 
distraction from raw sockets, but subtly connected, in terms of *why* 
some standards are useful, and other 'standards' are not.

I hope it has made a few folk re-think their attitude to using the 'net. 
Just as with newsreaders, servers should be generous with what they 
accept (and then perhaps drop in a bit-bucket) and strict with what they 
transmit.

I am quite surprised how the similarity exists between such different 
uses of computers.  Perhaps it's a working method (I was about to write 
'rule') that can be applied to other aspects of our lives as well.

Food for thought.

-- 
Jim (Cruncher) Crowther                      "It's MY computer"
*               It's our turn to help pchelp                  *
*                  <http://pchelpers.org>                     *
*    <http://www.cozmikshirts.co.uk/rooms/pchelpers.shtml>    *
0
Jim
6/22/2001 9:30:00 PM
In message <3B33B25E.D52E692F@earthlink.net>, abujamal 
<muslims@earthlink.net> writes

>   A post containing more than 50% of quoted material, identified by 
>the ">" markers, is automatically rejected.

Immediately circumvented by those who do not use '>' but some other 
invented quote mark, including a null quote mark.

Pointless exercise, as has been thrashed out many times elsewhere.

Peer pressure and a very clear, unequivocal Charter or FAQ for the 
newsgroup, with moderators in the wings, has worked elsewhere with much 
success.

-- 
Jim (Cruncher) Crowther                      "It's MY computer"
*               It's our turn to help pchelp                  *
*                  <http://pchelpers.org>                     *
*    <http://www.cozmikshirts.co.uk/rooms/pchelpers.shtml>    *
0
Jim
6/22/2001 9:34:00 PM
Steve Gibson <support@grc.com> wrote:

>
>> I can see some merit in your idea of just the name or nick-name in
>> the 'From: ' header.  However, it might not survive all
>> transports, and certainly won't be liked by some clients, although
>> TP's response was particularly nonsensical.
>
>And Xnews too, right?  Didn't "Q" have a problem as well??

You can't post with your email address set to an invalid format, but 
all the above 'From' fields look OK at this end.

-- 
White Rabbit
0
WhiteRabbit
6/22/2001 9:35:00 PM
On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:38:15 -0700, "Steve Gibson" wrote:

>
>> 
>> Still Xnews won't attribute.
>> 
>
>Yep ... so Turnpike and Xnews need to be given a probably-invalid 
>email address in order to comply with the RFC's.

Looks like Agent is in that class too. At least I can't find a way yet.

-- 
Buzz
0
Buzz
6/22/2001 9:44:00 PM
Buzz,

> >Yep ... so Turnpike and Xnews need to be given a probably-invalid 
> >email address in order to comply with the RFC's.
> 
> Looks like Agent is in that class too. At least I can't find
> a way yet.

Well, at least it's in good company.

When you view the message from me above in this thread -- which 
doesn't have my eMail address in the From header -- what do you see?

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 9:58:00 PM
Salaam!

Dean Craft wrote:

> That does not, however, give the indecisive liberty to
> attempt intimidation, ridicule and disparagement as was
> so evident in the case under discussion.  Do it my way
> or I'm outta here is only suitable for the school yard.

   The keyword is "attempt."  Failing is sufficient embarrassment for
such an individual, taking note of that attempt is merely oppressive. 
Yes, it's childish and stupid.  And entirely ignorable.

> Throwing ridicule and scorn upon your host is inappropriate
> and smacks of attempts to intimidate the host.

   Well of course it does -- everyone sees it, too.  So who is harmed by
it other than the one who does it?

> Steve has demonstrated any number of times that he can
> withstand the sharp and often painful result of reasoned,
> even heated, debate.  This was not a case of debate;
> however.  It clearly was an attempt to force an opinion
> on the presumption that the speaker's absence would in
> some manner diminish the stature of the host.

   Very bad manners, in addition to being so ludicrously futile.  By
responding as he did, Steve was being more generous and gracious than I
would have been.  I do not often pass by a post that obviously expects
some response from me, but on occasion I will decide that someone's
"last word" sufficiently buries them that there's no way I could
possibly lift them out of the hole they've dug for themselves.  I *do*
generally read anything that is a response to my own postings.  Often
enough, someone else has already responded adequately and there is
nothing for me to add.  But occasionally there's just no inspiration for
me to even think about responding, it's not worth the effort to think
about it.  Silence is sufficient as a response.

> In addition to showing that he is only human by acknowledging
> that he indeed has buttons, he has shown, in this case, that
> he will not abide the arrogance of attempts to dictate his
> course.  There is no need to outline the evidence that he
> always considers all opinions offered when he asks for them.

   Exactly.  He illuminates and admonishes grossly bad manners on
occasion.  In this case I wouldn't have bothered.

> I applaud his stance.

   His stance, yes.  I have assumed that responding to a button-push was
knowing and deliberate.  Generous is better, I'll agree.  Best, in my
view, is to smash the buttons so they're not available to the foolish.

> Dean Craft

was-salaam,
abujamal
-- 
news://news.pchelponline.org
0
abujamal
6/22/2001 9:59:00 PM
"Steve Gibson" wrote:

:snipped to avoid the 50% rule :-)

Huh? Seems to work for me, or am I missing something?

-- 
White Rabbit
0
WhiteRabbit
6/22/2001 10:06:00 PM
> >  A post containing more than 50% of quoted material, identified
> >  by the ">" markers, is automatically rejected.
> 
> Immediately circumvented by those who do not use '>' but some other 
> invented quote mark, including a null quote mark.
> 
> Pointless exercise, as has been thrashed out many times elsewhere.

Yes, Jim, perhaps.  But not here.  You may be an expert in all this, 
but your attitude exhibits some contempt for those of us who are not.

And ... as it happens ... I disagree with you on this count.

It may not be a perfect solution, and it may have workarounds ...

OH WAIT! -- Gee -- *JUST* like Full Raw Sockets --  <<grin>>

.... but that doesn't mean that it would not be useful and effective 
for the MAJORITY of folks with standard-configured newsreaders.

And I could easily adapt INN to deal with any quoting character.

> Peer pressure and a very clear, unequivocal Charter or FAQ for the 
> newsgroup, with moderators in the wings, has worked elsewhere with
> much success.

Perhaps, but nowhere else is like here.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 10:07:00 PM
In article <MPG.159c47a98cb4428d9897a5@207.71.92.194>, support@grc.com says...
> > 
> > Please reconsider your thoughts.
> 
> 
> I've never stopped doing that.


Excellent, nice to see you've reconfigured your thoughts <g>


//Extra padding comment to push new content over the
50% needed with the new quote filter.
The news server was not letting me post JUST the 3 lines above//


Ash
0
Ash
6/22/2001 10:34:00 PM
Ash,

> //Extra padding comment to push new content over the
> 50% needed with the new quote filter.
> The news server was not letting me post JUST the 3 lines above//

How
VERY
Annoying!

But
it's
easily
circumvented!!
:)

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/22/2001 10:43:00 PM
In article news:MPG.159d49e9bb09cabd9897e6@207.71.92.194, Steve Gibson 
<support@grc.com> kicked in with:

>> I can see some merit in your idea of just the name or nick-name in the 
>> 'From: ' header.  However, it might not survive all transports, and 
>> certainly won't be liked by some clients, although TP's response was 
>> particularly nonsensical. 
> 
> And Xnews too, right?  Didn't "Q" have a problem as well??
> 

Just tested that and XNews will not allow me to send a message without 
something resembling an email address in the 'public email' field. This, 
together with the 'name' field will form the information in 'From: '

-- 
Fungus (aka Urgje / BomBom the Magnificent)
posting through XNews
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
PGP Key ID:0xDDD4F1E2
[urgje at dds dot nl]
0
Fungus
6/22/2001 10:43:00 PM
I'm not Buzz, but OE shows "Steve Gibson" (no quotes) and when I doubleclick
on it, I get a page saying
"name: Steve Gibson
Email: support@grc.com"

--
When replying by Email, set the priority to "Low" (this will filter it to
the proper folder in OE).
This post is not to be copied to any server other than news.grc.com, or any
other news server run by Gibson Research Corporation.

"Steve Gibson" wrote:
> Buzz,
>
> When you view the message from me above in this thread -- which
> doesn't have my eMail address in the From header -- what do you see?
>
> --
> _________________________________________________________________
> Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Some
6/22/2001 10:49:00 PM
Salaam!

Jim Crowther wrote:

> abujamal writes
>> A post containing more than 50% of quoted material, identified
>> by the ">" markers, is automatically rejected.

> Immediately circumvented by those who do not use '>' but some
> other invented quote mark, including a null quote mark.

   Which immediately identifies the poster as someone who will expend
effort to abuse custom.

   On occasion, where the logic of a reply dictates extensive quoting
for short responses, it's worthwhile to go ahead and edit the post in
this manner.  That's seldom the case.

> Pointless exercise, as has been thrashed out many times elsewhere.

   I wasn't discussing the principle, but merely one instance of actual
application in an environment dominated by people who abuse custom. 
There, the abusers themselves do not complain about this particular
stricture.  Very few go through the effort of changing the lead
character to abuse it.

   I also see the posts that get rejected, as well as all the complaint
emails.  This 50% filter *usually* gets applied to "me too" responses
and to "no" response text items.  I do not recall seeing even ONE
complaint about the 50% filter.

> Peer pressure and a very clear, unequivocal Charter
> or FAQ for the newsgroup, with moderators in the
> wings, has worked elsewhere with much success.

   I haven't seen peer pressure work where it's needed, ever on the
Web.  The 50% filter I've seen in use only at SRI, it works fine there
with no complaint.

> Jim (Cruncher) Crowther

was-salaam,
abujamal
-- 
news://news.pchelponline.org
0
abujamal
6/22/2001 10:56:00 PM
Salaam!

Ash wrote:

> support@grc.com says...
>>> Please reconsider your thoughts.
>> I've never stopped doing that.
> Excellent, nice to see you've reconfigured your thoughts <g>

> //Extra padding comment to push new content over the
> 50% needed with the new quote filter.
> The news server was not letting me post JUST the 3 lines above//

   Okay, after removing the ">" character from *blank* lines, I've left
a total of eight instances and added 12 lines without the ">" plus this
paragraph.  You'll find a "Backspace" key at the upper right of your
keyboard that handily removes the extra markers.  Exceeding quoted text
is seldom difficult.

> Ash

was-salaam,
abujamal
-- 
news://news.pchelponline.org
0
abujamal
6/22/2001 11:02:00 PM
<Steve Gibson> wrote in message
news:MPG.159c92fa43ab41749897cf@207.71.92.194...
[...]
> I think this is the perfect solution.  The From header exists -- as
> it must -- but it carries no eMail address whatsoever.  Just my name,
> my handle, my moniker ... whatever.  So there is *nothing* for the
> eMail address harvesters to suck up.  And the Reply-To field carries
> my eMail address (with or without a redundant name, I don't care, but
> I chose not to have one.)

To report:

OE correctly selects the support at grc dot com address to send to when
hitting reply to sender, but displays "Steve Gibson" as the author when
viewing the message.

That certainly seems like the perfect solution (so far). Now if only we
could find a way to automate it for more than nine-tenths of the postings
here! *grin*

From looking through headers, there appear to be several ways to "encode" a
name and an email address in both "From" and "Reply-to" headers, all of
which OE recognizes (not that that's a good example!). We have <email
address> (<name>) and "<name>" <<email address>>, as well as just <<email
address>> or <email address>.

If there is a simple INN-filter/script method that can be used to break
things up based on those patterns, I say go for it (though the space savings
start to become minimal when compared to the additional processing and
scriptinh time :( ). Or, OTOH, you could just leave it up to us to customize
our headers, with the new information you have dug up.

> Note that it is the FROM field which threads our articles together
> and shows our authorship in the thread views ... so of course we need
> it. But there is no need for it to contain anything other than the
> handle the user wants to use as their personal "moniker."

I regret more and more that I acclimatized to OE early on, and now find
other solutions difficult to use. *lol*

[...]

Regards,
Sam
0
Sam
6/22/2001 11:41:00 PM
"Some Dull Guy" <iamkristoffer@hotsmell.com> schreef in bericht
news:9h0htl$50g$1@news.grc.com...
> I'm not Buzz, but OE shows "Steve Gibson" (no quotes) and when I
doubleclick
> on it, I get a page saying
> "name: Steve Gibson
> Email: support@grc.com"
>
> --
> When replying by Email, set the priority to "Low" (this will filter it
to
> the proper folder in OE).
> This post is not to be copied to any server other than news.grc.com,
or any
> other news server run by Gibson Research Corporation.
>
> "Steve Gibson" wrote:
> > Buzz,
> >
> > When you view the message from me above in this thread -- which
> > doesn't have my eMail address in the From header -- what do you see?
> >
> > --
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
>
>
>


SDG,

- Your sig is very annoying to me
- Your posting manners too
- Please try to do if in a different way, it almost looks like spam..

Wimpie.
0
Wimpie
6/22/2001 11:46:00 PM
Wimpie wrote:

> - Your sig is very annoying to me
> - Your posting manners too
> - Please try to do if in a different way, it almost looks like spam..

The way you do not snip is very annoying to me.
The way you do not *follow suit* with respect to top/bottom posting is
annoying to me.
Please try to do it in a different way.
0
waves
6/22/2001 11:57:00 PM
In message <MPG.159d6172f17c462e9897f6@207.71.92.194>, Steve Gibson 
<support@grc.com> writes
>
>> >  A post containing more than 50% of quoted material, identified
>> >  by the ">" markers, is automatically rejected.
>>
>> Immediately circumvented by those who do not use '>' but some other
>> invented quote mark, including a null quote mark.
>>
>> Pointless exercise, as has been thrashed out many times elsewhere.
>
>Yes, Jim, perhaps.  But not here.  You may be an expert in all this,

I'm not an expert, merely a grasshopper...

>but your attitude exhibits some contempt for those of us who are not.
>
Some contempt for ignoring all history perhaps, but I'm very open to a 
fresh look at all this. :)

>And ... as it happens ... I disagree with you on this count.
>
>It may not be a perfect solution, and it may have workarounds ...
>
>OH WAIT! -- Gee -- *JUST* like Full Raw Sockets --  <<grin>>
>
>... but that doesn't mean that it would not be useful and effective
>for the MAJORITY of folks with standard-configured newsreaders.
>
>And I could easily adapt INN to deal with any quoting character.
>
Oh yes?  How would you know?  (Uh-oh, a third question coming, yuk!) And 
how would you cope with those who instead of using a quote char used:

JIM: Peer pressure and a very clear, unequivocal Charter or FAQ for the
JIM: newsgroup, with moderators in the wings, has worked elsewhere with
JIM: much success.

STEVE: Perhaps, but nowhere else is like here.

That last remark is very true, and I'm very glad it is. :)

-- 
Jim (Cruncher) Crowther                      "It's MY computer"
*               It's our turn to help pchelp                  *
*                  <http://pchelpers.org>                     *
*    <http://www.cozmikshirts.co.uk/rooms/pchelpers.shtml>    *
0
Jim
6/23/2001 12:17:00 AM
OK. For clarification purposes, what do you find offensive about my sig and
posting habits?

I'm no spammer.

--
When replying by Email, set the priority to "Low" (this will filter it to
the proper folder in OE).
This post is not to be copied to any server other than news.grc.com, or any
other news server run by Gibson Research Corporation.


"Wimpie" wrote in message:
> SDG,
>
> - Your sig is very annoying to me
> - Your posting manners too
> - Please try to do if in a different way, it almost looks like spam..
>
> Wimpie.
>
>
0
Kristoffer
6/23/2001 12:18:00 AM
In message <3B33CD04.B3BA73ED@earthlink.net>, abujamal 
<muslims@earthlink.net> writes
>Salaam!
>
>Jim Crowther wrote:
>
>> abujamal writes
>>> A post containing more than 50% of quoted material, identified
>>> by the ">" markers, is automatically rejected.
>
>> Immediately circumvented by those who do not use '>' but some
>> other invented quote mark, including a null quote mark.
>
>   Which immediately identifies the poster as someone who will expend
>effort to abuse custom.
>

Tell Jennifer and others in 10> who are not intending to abuse, but are 
merely not yet in control of their software.  I do not think these folk 
want to 'abuse', they are merely helpless in the seeming infinite 
configuration options, of, usually, OE*.

-- 
Jim (Cruncher) Crowther                      "It's MY computer"
*               It's our turn to help pchelp                  *
*                  <http://pchelpers.org>                     *
*    <http://www.cozmikshirts.co.uk/rooms/pchelpers.shtml>    *
0
Jim
6/23/2001 12:21:00 AM
In message <MPG.159d69f9dae84fb99897ff@207.71.92.194>, Steve Gibson 
<support@grc.com> writes
>Ash,
>
>> //Extra padding comment to push new content over the
>> 50% needed with the new quote filter.
>> The news server was not letting me post JUST the 3 lines above//
>
>How
>VERY
>Annoying!
>
>But
>it's
>easily
>circumvented!!
>:)
>
Fully quoted to make the point that you are senselessly counting lines, 
and not chars.

OE invariably adds five blank lines to every post - will you discount 
them?

-- 
Jim (Cruncher) Crowther                      "It's MY computer"
*               It's our turn to help pchelp                  *
*                  <http://pchelpers.org>                     *
*    <http://www.cozmikshirts.co.uk/rooms/pchelpers.shtml>    *
0
Jim
6/23/2001 12:23:00 AM
Quoted in full, comments where required...

In message <9h0n5e$akh$1@news.grc.com>, "Kristoffer \"Not-so-dull guy\" 
Bisher" <iamkristoffer@hotsmell.com> writes
>OK. For clarification purposes, what do you find offensive about my sig and
>posting habits?
>
>I'm no spammer.
>
>--

Duff sig sep.  No space after the two hyphens.

>When replying by Email, set the priority to "Low" (this will filter it to
>the proper folder in OE).
>This post is not to be copied to any server other than news.grc.com, or any
>other news server run by Gibson Research Corporation.

A legal nonsense in a sig.  Annoying.

>
>"Wimpie" wrote in message:
>> SDG,
>>
>> - Your sig is very annoying to me
>> - Your posting manners too
>> - Please try to do if in a different way, it almost looks like spam..
>>
>> Wimpie.
>>
>>
>
>
Fully quoting all that came before, including many blank lines.

*EXACTLY* the sort of thing that clogs the archives, and anyone who 
posts so lazily should be ashamed.

I know many folk who post perfectly formed articles using O/OE, it just 
takes a bit of effort to overcome BG's arrogance.

-- 
Jim (Cruncher) Crowther                      "It's MY computer"
*               It's our turn to help pchelp                  *
*                  <http://pchelpers.org>                     *
*    <http://www.cozmikshirts.co.uk/rooms/pchelpers.shtml>    *
0
Jim
6/23/2001 12:28:00 AM
Jim,

I thought that the RFC standard *WAS* a blank line before and after 
the "-- " *with* a space following the "--".

I notice that Robert W. lacks the blank line after ... and that, 
consequently, his sig is not trimmed from quoted reply posts.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/23/2001 1:05:00 AM
In article <Vzb2CXTyK+M7EAlQ@grc.com.ngs> Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
> I thought that the RFC standard *WAS* a blank line before and after
> the "-- " *with* a space following the "--".
> 
> I notice that Robert W. lacks the blank line after ... and that,
> consequently, his sig is not trimmed from quoted reply posts.
> 
I don't leave a blank line before or after the "-- ", but there *is* a
space following the dashes.  Robert's problem is that he is using OE
which does NOT place a space after the dashes.  And if the user places a
space there, OE will remove it as the message is sent, thus keeping OE
non-compliant.  8^(
-- 
Alan
(at work on 21st century Energy Theory)
Energy and Energetics:
< http://www.cox-internet.com/hermital/index.htm >
0
Hermital
6/23/2001 1:17:00 AM
Jim,

> I'm not an expert, merely a grasshopper...

Yeah, sure!  :)

> >but your attitude exhibits some contempt for those of us who
> are not.
> >
> Some contempt for ignoring all history perhaps, but I'm very
> open to a fresh look at all this. :)

I appreciate the truth of that, and I know that "ignorance of the law 
shall be no excuse" ... 

> JIM: Peer pressure and a very clear, unequivocal Charter or FAQ for the
> JIM: newsgroup, with moderators in the wings, has worked elsewhere with
> JIM: much success.
> 
> STEVE: Perhaps, but nowhere else is like here.
> 
> That last remark is very true, and I'm very glad it is. :)

I hope to (soon) have a really NICE technological (heavily heuristic) 
potential solution for the whole thing!

.... but we need  to stub our toes on the "50% solution" (<g>) before 
searching for a solution "for the rest of us."

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/23/2001 1:22:00 AM
> I don't leave a blank line before or after the "-- ", but there *is* a
> space following the dashes.  Robert's problem is that he is using OE
> which does NOT place a space after the dashes.  And if the user places a
> space there, OE will remove it as the message is sent, thus keeping OE
> non-compliant.  8^(

Ah .... but don't ya know that's *JUST* the sort of thing I'm itching 
to fix???  <<grin>>

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/23/2001 1:26:00 AM
In message <MPG.159d8b383d051da7989807@207.71.92.194>, Steve Gibson 
<support@grc.com> writes
>Jim,
>
>I thought that the RFC standard *WAS* a blank line before and after
>the "-- " *with* a space following the "--".
>
Blank line before, yes.  After not specified.  Four lines total after 
suggested as a maximum for least annoyance.  Definitely must be a space 
after the'--', but OE strips ALL trailing spaces, which makes a dog's 
breakfast combined with the (even worse, IMNSHO) duff quoting levels, 
and those who put a sig after their top-posted words of (?)wisdom and 
before the fully quoted remainder.  Grr...

Where's joWazzoo when you want him. :(

(I know he's working..<g> )

>I notice that Robert W. lacks the blank line after ... and that,
>consequently, his sig is not trimmed from quoted reply posts.

No version of OE can produce a sig sep.  Terminally broken, ignored for 
OE6 as well. :(

-- 
Jim (Cruncher) Crowther                      "It's MY computer"
*               It's our turn to help pchelp                  *
*                  <http://pchelpers.org>                     *
*    <http://www.cozmikshirts.co.uk/rooms/pchelpers.shtml>    *
0
Jim
6/23/2001 1:28:00 AM
Heh heh...

"Kristoffer "Not-so-dull guy" Bisher" <iamkristoffer@hotsmell.com> wrote in message
news:9h0n5e$akh$1@news.grc.com...
> OK. For clarification purposes, what do you find offensive about my sig and posting habits?>
> I'm no spammer.
>
> --
> When replying by Email, set the priority to "Low" (this will filter it to
> the proper folder in OE).
> This post is not to be copied to any server other than news.grc.com, or any
> other news server run by Gibson Research Corporation.
>

Hello Kristoffer.  Nice to meet you.  <g>

a)  I find nothing offensive about your posts, and it's good to know you're not a spammer.
::shrug::
b)  Your sig ranks 378 out of the top 400 things that annoy me, and thinking about some of
the -other- things I have to live with on a day-to-day basis... I doubt it even merits
consideration.  This is, of course, IMO.

Welcome to the discussion groups at GRC.

Hilly.

>
> "Wimpie" wrote in message:
<<SSSSNNNNNNIIIIIIPPPPPPPP>>
0
Hilly
6/23/2001 1:35:00 AM
In message <MPG.159d90398dc0948c98980a@207.71.92.194>, Steve Gibson 
<support@grc.com> writes
>
>> I don't leave a blank line before or after the "-- ", but there *is* a
>> space following the dashes.  Robert's problem is that he is using OE
>> which does NOT place a space after the dashes.  And if the user places a
>> space there, OE will remove it as the message is sent, thus keeping OE
>> non-compliant.  8^(
>
>Ah .... but don't ya know that's *JUST* the sort of thing I'm itching
>to fix???  <<grin>>
>
Who are you replying to Steve?  Just to play the nit-picker here...

Attributions are important too...

-- 
Jim (Cruncher) Crowther                      "It's MY computer"
*               It's our turn to help pchelp                  *
*                  <http://pchelpers.org>                     *
*    <http://www.cozmikshirts.co.uk/rooms/pchelpers.shtml>    *
0
Jim
6/23/2001 1:39:00 AM
"Hilly" wrote:
> Heh heh...
>
> "Kristoffer "Not-so-dull guy" Bisher" <iamkristoffer@hotsmell.com> wrote
in message
> news:9h0n5e$akh$1@news.grc.com...
> > OK. For clarification purposes, what do you find offensive about my sig
and posting habits?
> > I'm no spammer.
>
> Hello Kristoffer.  Nice to meet you.  <g>
>
> a)  I find nothing offensive about your posts, and it's good to know
you're not a spammer.
> ::shrug::
> b)  Your sig ranks 378 out of the top 400 things that annoy me, and
thinking about some of
> the -other- things I have to live with on a day-to-day basis... I doubt it
even merits
> consideration.  This is, of course, IMO.
>
> Welcome to the discussion groups at GRC.


Thank you. :-)

--
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0
Kristoffer
6/23/2001 1:43:00 AM
In article <MPG.159d90398dc0948c98980a@207.71.92.194> Steve Gibson
wrote:
> 
> Ah .... but don't ya know that's *JUST* the sort of thing I'm itching
> to fix???  <<grin>>
> 
Who would've thunk it?  ;^)
-- 
Alan
(at work on 21st century Energy Theory)
Energy and Energetics:
< http://www.cox-internet.com/hermital/index.htm >
0
Hermital
6/23/2001 1:44:00 AM
On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 at 12:36:55,  wrote in grc.news.feedback
(Reference: <MPG.159d3e3567fd944b9897db@207.71.92.194>)


>Hi Mike,
>
>>
>> Oops, ignore that.  I just saw your From: "Steve Gibson"
>> message.  That one appears correctly in OE as well...
>>
>
>Yep ... and Gravity likes it just fine too.
>
>But Jim's Turnpike newsreader warns him about RFC non-compliance in
>the "From" header if it lacks something that appears to be an eMail
>address. :(
>
Turnpike does not warn about a badly formatted From: header on the 
input. It produces a correctly formed but meaningless email address in 
its display. It won't let me send a message out with a badly formatted 
From: header.

>Thus there's obviously the need to keep Turnpike happy even when
>common practice has become to deliberately falsify the "From" address
>in the "From" header ... JUST FOR THE SAKE of keeping the RFC's
>happy.

This sounds incredibly childish.

>
>That's what I mean about mindlessly following standards that have
>been abused by others (Spammers) and not independently determining
>what's right in a specific situation.
>
You mean seeing if you can ignore the rules and get away with it even 
though you don't realise the consequences. Since those who formulate 
RFCs have a security element in most of their considerations, I  find 
this very worrying.
-- 
John Underwood
Use the Reply To: address for the next 30 days
After that write to john@the-underwoods.org.uk
Do not send anything to the From: address
0
John
6/23/2001 1:54:00 AM
John,

> >Thus there's obviously the need to keep Turnpike happy even when
> >common practice has become to deliberately falsify the "From" address
> >in the "From" header ... JUST FOR THE SAKE of keeping the RFC's
> >happy.
> 
> This sounds incredibly childish.

Hmmmm.  I understand that you feel this way.  And we differ.

> >That's what I mean about mindlessly following standards that have
> >been abused by others (Spammers) and not independently determining
> >what's right in a specific situation.
> >
> You mean seeing if you can ignore the rules and get away with it even 
> though you don't realise the consequences. Since those who formulate 
> RFCs have a security element in most of their considerations, I  find 
> this very worrying.

I don't ... but I'm glad you're here.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Steve
6/23/2001 1:58:00 AM
"John Underwood" <spamfromGRC@the-underwoods.org.uk> wrote in message
news:q86DpfFmgbM7EAz8@the-underwoods.org.uk...

> Jim's not the only Turnpike user here, �?�Q�?�, and it doesn't garble
> them. News postings use MIME which handle these things correctly. It is
> mail where problems of this sort are critical. It should, in most cases
> be possible to send and receive things like £, ü, ö, �Y, ä, á, �
> (Pound, u umlaut, o umlaut, esszet, a umlaut, a acute and a grave).

VERY garbled here. *lol* I see ("A-with a cap""pound-sign","A-with a
tilde""1/4th sign:, "A-with a tilde""Paragraph break sign","A-with a
tilde""Y","A-with a tilde""o-with arms (wierd symbol...)","A-with a tilde""j
with no hook at bottom", "A-with a tilde". *rolls eyes*

I guess OE isn't too bright.

Regards,
Sam
0
Sam
6/23/2001 2:06:00 AM
"John Underwood" wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 at 12:36:55,  wrote in grc.news.feedback
> You mean seeing if you can ignore the rules and get away with it even
> though you don't realise the consequences. Since those who formulate
> RFCs have a security element in most of their considerations, I  find
> this very worrying.

Sometimes privacy and storage considerations come before security. Privacy
and security often go hand-in-hand, but there are times when they are
totally at odds, too.
Not that I see how headers in a news posting can have anything to do with
security, but I haven't thoroughly researched the issue either.

--
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0
Kristoffer
6/23/2001 2:07:00 AM
In message <9h0t8v$h99$1@news.grc.com>, Sam Schinke 
<arishae.NO@SPAM.icqmail.com> writes
>I guess OE isn't too bright.

Hole in one, Sam. :)

However, I will admit that OE has introduced more folk to Usenet than 
any other client.  The fact it gives most of them bad habits etc is by 
the way - all eventually reform, and use something better.

But they wouldn't do that if they hadn't used OE to start with, so I 
acknowledge that role.  (with gritted teeth.. <g>)

-- 
Jim (Cruncher) Crowther                      "It's MY computer"
*               It's our turn to help pchelp                  *
*                  <http://pchelpers.org>                     *
*    <http://www.cozmikshirts.co.uk/rooms/pchelpers.shtml>    *
0
Jim
6/23/2001 2:10:00 AM
<Steve Gibson> wrote in message
news:MPG.159d43317e86793d9897e0@207.71.92.194...
> Mitch,
>
> > And if you had realised the importance of RFCs, where things
> > are explained ...  :-)

[...]

> The RFC's governing USENET have only a tangential and passing bearing
> on the operation of a non-replicating, totally private, bulletin
> board system which happens to use Usenet newsreaders as its clients.

Lets all write a "grc newsgroup" RFC and enshrine it as gospel to satisfy
Mitch and others who take his stance. *g* Once all this is decided, of
course.

Regards,
Sam
0
Sam
6/23/2001 2:14:00 AM
"Sam Schinke" wrote:
> Lets all write a "grc newsgroup" RFC and enshrine it as gospel to satisfy
> Mitch and others who take his stance. *g* Once all this is decided, of
> course.

Why wait? here's an RFC for you, for the purpose of news.grc.com:

Section 1.0:

Whatever Steve Gibson can get to work, he implements.
Whatever Steve Gibson implements goes
END of RFC News.grc.com section 1.0
END of RFC News.grc.com


--
When replying by Email, set the priority to "Low" (this will filter it to
the proper folder in OE).
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0
Kristoffer
6/23/2001 2:18:00 AM
In article <v+5ohzi6p$M7EATD@grc.com.ngs> Jim Crowther wrote:
> 
> However, I will admit that OE has introduced more folk to Usenet than
> any other client.  The fact it gives most of them bad habits etc is by
> the way - all eventually reform, and use something better.
> 
> But they wouldn't do that if they hadn't used OE to start with, so I
> acknowledge that role.  (with gritted teeth.. <g>)
> 
My first ISP provided Netscape 1.0 as the supported browser.  I kept
updating it (and ISP's) regularly and have never used OE.  Don't even
have it installed on my machine.  <VBG>
-- 
Alan
(at work on 21st century Energy Theory)
Energy and Energetics:
< http://www.cox-internet.com/hermital/index.htm >
0
Hermital
6/23/2001 2:27:00 AM
Steve Gibson <support@grc.com> wrote in 
news:MPG.159d5f66a067a7a79897f5@207.71.92.194:

> When you view the message from me above in this thread -- which 
> doesn't have my eMail address in the From header -- what do you see?

Steve,

here is what I see in Xnews:

Path: news.grc.com!not-for-mail
From: "Steve Gibson"
Newsgroups: grc.news.feedback
Subject: Re: The Removal of non-standard headers ...
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:38:15 -0700
Organization: Gibson Research Corporation
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <MPG.159d3e8429020a089897dc@207.71.92.194>

<snipped>
 
By the way, Xnews pops up an alert before sending if there is excessive 
quoting in the post to allow you to edit the message. From memory if it 
is over 60% of the actual message. Of course you can override that.

Regards,
Jeff

minus x-face  :(
0
Jeff
6/23/2001 3:35:00 AM
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Steve Gibson" wrote in
news:MPG.159d4109901b8e709897de@207.71.92.194: 

> Thanks to the feedback from you and Jim, it is becoming clear that,
> in the case of the "From" header, Turnpike and Xnews are twitchy 
> about needing to be fed a probably-bogus eMail address.

As far as I can tell XNews isn't very twitchy about the "From"
header. It requires an e-mail address for posting a message, but
doesn't give a hoot when retrieving and reading messages. IOW, you
can strip the e-mail from the header and XNews won't care. 

BTW, OE 5.5 requires an e-mail address when setting up a news server
account. 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>

iQA/AwUBOzQs2kfgWcwXOJwfEQIutQCffpEMGttdVc+tn5R5Ym5KD1X5GnEAn3yG
F8W4WmvGt+7h/FYEncxwUVBF
=Ms8A
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
0
The
6/23/2001 7:05:00 AM
On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 19:14:40 -0700, Sam Schinke enlightened us all with:

>Lets all write a "grc newsgroup" RFC and enshrine it as gospel to satisfy
>Mitch and others who take his stance. *g* Once all this is decided, of
>course.

Excuse me --- me is a she :-)

-- 
Mitch
0
Mitch
6/23/2001 10:23:00 AM
Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
> ... and then reject (with a nice an polite note of course) any
> postings where more than some pre-set percentage of the total content
> was quoting.
> 
> Sure ... I *COULD* do that ... but wouldn't people freak out??

Not really. It's annoying when it denies you a post that you feel is
formatted correctly, but there are ways around it. I dealt with such a
server for a couple of years -- rejecting overquotes was standard
practice, and it was very aggressive about it. It was set strictly at
50% -- at least half the content had to be new. Luckily, attribution
lines and sigs counted as "new". This made it a little easier to deal
with. Also, I sometimes found it necessary to deliberately break quoting
by changing the markings, if it was imperative that I not snip more.

However, this practice put an immediate stop to cascading. If it had
gained wide acceptance, the meowers would have been snuffed in the
cradle.

Mal-2
-- 
It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority. By
definition, there are already enough people to do that.   -- G. H. Hardy
Orquesta Guayao Online http://www.geocities.com/orqguayao * ICQ:11401527
0
Malaclypse
6/23/2001 10:59:00 AM
"Jim Crowther" <Don't.use.Lockdown@any.price> wrote in message
news:ixmbSscGD$M7EASi@grc.com.ngs...

> >I notice that Robert W. lacks the blank line after ... and that,
> >consequently, his sig is not trimmed from quoted reply posts.
>
> No version of OE can produce a sig sep.  Terminally broken, ignored
for
> OE6 as well. :(

Jim,

I thought my drunken sergent allowed the sig to be trimmed.
--
� 
-- 
Robert
grc.com forum FAQ - http://grc.com/discussions.htm
grc.com forum quick reference - http://grc.com/nntpquickref.htm
0
Robert
6/23/2001 11:34:00 AM
"Kristoffer "Not-so-dull guy" Bisher" <iamkristoffer@hotsmell.com>
schreef in bericht news:9h0n5e$akh$1@news.grc.com...

Kristoffer,

<no snip for purpose>

    The following beneath is what I see in OE. I hope you understand
that it is disturbing to the natural reading.
Having seen you in t.f.test, I assumed you had it fixed.
During my testerday's ploughing through the vast number of posts, I
caught myself rereading the same sig which I considered to be text also,
thus becoming from disturbing to annoying, as 'sigs' and 'quotes' were
full on topic.

Maybe I was a bit hars and short to you, which of course was not
intended.
I do welcome you these fine folks and hope you'll enjoy it as much as
I've been enjoying it.
HTH

Wimpie.


> OK. For clarification purposes, what do you find offensive about my
sig and
> posting habits?
>
> I'm no spammer.
>
> --
> When replying by Email, set the priority to "Low" (this will filter it
to
> the proper folder in OE).
> This post is not to be copied to any server other than news.grc.com,
or any
> other news server run by Gibson Research Corporation.
>
>
> "Wimpie" wrote in message:
> > SDG,
> >
> > - Your sig is very annoying to me
> > - Your posting manners too
> > - Please try to do if in a different way, it almost looks like
spam..
> >
> > Wimpie.
> >
> >
                                            And this:

> I'm not Buzz, but OE shows "Steve Gibson" (no quotes) and when I
doubleclick
on it, I get a page saying
"name: Steve Gibson
Email: support@grc.com"

--
When replying by Email, set the priority to "Low" (this will filter it
to
the proper folder in OE).
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other news server run by Gibson Research Corporation.

"Steve Gibson" wrote:
> Buzz,
>
> When you view the message from me above in this thread -- which
> doesn't have my eMail address in the From header -- what do you see?
>
> --
> _________________________________________________________________
> Steve Gibson,               at work on: < a million loose ends >
0
Wimpie
6/23/2001 11:43:00 AM
In article <9h1urh$1hal$1@news.grc.com>, Robert Wycoff said...
> 
> "Jim Crowther" <Don't.use.Lockdown@any.price> wrote in message
> news:ixmbSscGD$M7EASi@grc.com.ngs...
> 
> > >I notice that Robert W. lacks the blank line after ... and that,
> > >consequently, his sig is not trimmed from quoted reply posts.
> >
> > No version of OE can produce a sig sep.  Terminally broken, ignored
> for
> > OE6 as well. :(
> 
> Jim,
> 
> I thought my drunken sergent allowed the sig to be trimmed.
> --
> � 
> 
Yep, at least with Gravity.

-- 
Milly
0
Milly
6/23/2001 11:49:00 AM
"Milly" <no_sp@m.gov> wrote in message
news:MPG.159e92b390f59f2a989e2c@207.71.92.194...
> In article <9h1urh$1hal$1@news.grc.com>, Robert Wycoff said...
> >
> > "Jim Crowther" <Don't.use.Lockdown@any.price> wrote in message
> > news:ixmbSscGD$M7EASi@grc.com.ngs...
> >
> > > >I notice that Robert W. lacks the blank line after ... and that,
> > > >consequently, his sig is not trimmed from quoted reply posts.
> > >
> > > No version of OE can produce a sig sep.  Terminally broken,
ignored
> > for
> > > OE6 as well. :(
> >
> > Jim,
> >
> > I thought my drunken sergent allowed the sig to be trimmed.
> > --
> >

> >
> Yep, at least with Gravity.

Milly,

Yuch.  Still not a good solution if it leaves the sep and the sarg.
--
� 
-- 
Robert
grc.com forum FAQ - http://grc.com/discussions.htm
grc.com forum quick reference - http://grc.com/nntpquickref.htm
0
Robert
6/23/2001 12:16:00 PM

"An expert is someone who has made all the mistakes - and survived."

Steve Gibson wrote:
<snip>
> 
>                         Let's BREAK something!!!
> 
> ... only then will be find out how it really works!


-- 
Russell W. DeGarmo  
Deny the Spies:
http://grc.com
0
Russell
6/23/2001 12:47:00 PM
"Wimpie" wrote:
>
> "Kristoffer "Not-so-dull guy" Bisher" <iamkristoffer@hotsmell.com>
> schreef in bericht news:9h0n5e$akh$1@news.grc.com...
>
> Kristoffer,
>
> <no snip for purpose>
>
>     The following beneath is what I see in OE. I hope you understand
> that it is disturbing to the natural reading.
> Having seen you in t.f.test, I assumed you had it fixed.
> During my testerday's ploughing through the vast number of posts, I
> caught myself rereading the same sig which I considered to be text also,
> thus becoming from disturbing to annoying, as 'sigs' and 'quotes' were
> full on topic.
<Snip>

Any "fix" I do is manually done every time, and as such sometimes I will
slip up. That is, until I get a good newsreader that I can easily adapt to
and that works like it's supposed to.
Until then , bear with me as I WILL slip up every now and then.


--

______________________________________________________________________
When replying by Email, set the priority to "Low" (this will filter it to
the proper folder in OE).
This post is not to be copied to any server other than news.grc.com, or any
other news server run by Gibson Research Corporation.
0
Kristoffer
6/23/2001 2:26:00 PM
"Kristoffer "Not-so-dull guy" Bisher" <iamkristoffer@hotsmell.com>
schreef in bericht >

> Any "fix" I do is manually done every time, and as such sometimes I
will
> slip up. That is, until I get a good newsreader that I can easily
adapt to
> and that works like it's supposed to.
> Until then , bear with me as I WILL slip up every now and then.
>

Good luck!
BTW it looks much better already..

Wimpie.
0
Wimpie
6/23/2001 4:02:00 PM
Posted by Robert Wycoff, in article news:9h21aj$1jhq$1@news.grc.com:

> "Milly" <no_sp@m.gov> wrote in message
> news:MPG.159e92b390f59f2a989e2c@207.71.92.194...
>> In article <9h1urh$1hal$1@news.grc.com>, Robert Wycoff said...
>> >
>> > I thought my drunken sergent allowed the sig to be trimmed.
>> > --
>> >

>> Yep, at least with Gravity.
> 
> Milly,
> 
> Yuch.  Still not a good solution if it leaves the sep and the sarg.
> --
> � 

Yeah, the first sig sep is broken (no trailing space).  The second one 
has the trailing space, but as the chevron is above it, the chevron is 
not part of the sig.

Apparently, an open bracket (�, [, {, etc.) forces IE not to use 
automatic line-breaking on the next line, and trailing space stripping is 
a 'feature' of the line-breaking routine.  The bracket thing  seems to be 
an undocumented feature of OE4-5.5 at least;  I don't know about 6.  
Also, upgrading IE to 5.5 seems to remove the ability to use a bracket in 
this way.

It's particulary annoying that M$ clearly knows how to tinker with its 
line-breaking routine yet continues to refuse make a simple allowance for 
a valid sig delimiter.  You can request that they remedy the situation by 
using Help � M$ on the Web � Send Feedback.  I'm assured by several M$ 
MVPs that such feedback is read by people developing OE;  but hundreds if 
not thousands of people have already requested this bug fix for years 
with no result.  Screaming in Redmond seems to be less productive than 
screaming in the wilderness.  :(

-- 
�Q�

Look into the face of a child.
Measure how long you smile before the memory fades.
     - P. Townshend, 'Athena'
0
ouroboros
6/23/2001 7:02:00 PM
On or about, Thu 21 Jun 2001 21:31:16 (Local:), "Steve Gibson" captured our 
attention for a moment with the following message:

> RedLeg,
> 
> Yes indeed ... you DO have some extremely "creative" headers! :)
> 

ummm, Thanks!  (I think;)

-- 
m/s,
RedLeg
0
RedLeg
6/23/2001 7:08:00 PM
"�Q�" <ouroboros@apexmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns90C98D079A5C4itsmeitsQ@127.0.0.1...
> Yeah, the first sig sep is broken (no trailing space).  The second one
> has the trailing space, but as the chevron is above it, the chevron is
> not part of the sig.

Apparently, some newsreaders are able to get some sig strip with it, as
Milly and Jim have confirmed.  I just wish it worked.  But I hadn't
thought about the majority that uses OE. <G>  It makes no difference to
them.

> Apparently, an open bracket (�, [, {, etc.) forces IE not to use
> automatic line-breaking on the next line, and trailing space stripping
is
> a 'feature' of the line-breaking routine.  The bracket thing  seems to
be
> an undocumented feature of OE4-5.5 at least;  I don't know about 6.
> Also, upgrading IE to 5.5 seems to remove the ability to use a bracket
in
> this way.

Are you referring to the drunken sergeant? �

>  Screaming in Redmond seems to be less productive than
> screaming in the wilderness.  :(

I think Steve is trying to prove that your statement is not completely
accurate.
--
�
--
Robert
grc.com forum FAQ - http://grc.com/discussions.htm
grc.com forum quick reference - http://grc.com/nntpquickref.htm
0
Robert
6/23/2001 7:45:00 PM
Posted by Robert Wycoff, in article news:9h2rkt$2fj3$1@news.grc.com:

> "�Q�" <ouroboros@apexmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns90C98D079A5C4itsmeitsQ@127.0.0.1...
>> Yeah, the first sig sep is broken (no trailing space).  The second one
>> has the trailing space, but as the chevron is above it, the chevron is
>> not part of the sig. 
> 
> Apparently, some newsreaders are able to get some sig strip with it, as
> Milly and Jim have confirmed.  

I think it's possible to configure Xnews to recognize '--' as a sig 
delimiter as well.

-- 
�Q�

In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.
     - L. P. Berra, attributed
0
ouroboros
6/23/2001 8:03:00 PM
Posted by Steve Gibson, in article
news:MPG.159d49e9bb09cabd9897e6@207.71.92.194: 

>> I can see some merit in your idea of just the name or nick-name in
>> the 'From: ' header.  However, it might not survive all transports,
>> and certainly won't be liked by some clients, although TP's response
>> was particularly nonsensical. 
> 
> And Xnews too, right?  Didn't "Q" have a problem as well??

In the 'headers view,' Xnews showed whatever literal string you had put 
in the From header of the test post.  (Normally it shows the name, if 
present, or the e-mail addy.)  The only problem that I noticed was that 
if left a blank when attributing quoted text in the reply.

-- 
�Q�

Luck is the residue of design.
     - B. Rickey
0
ouroboros
6/23/2001 8:18:00 PM
"Mitch B" <nunews@urviles.dyndns.org> wrote in message
news:3b346de0.63659112@mitchb.org...
> Excuse me --- me is a she :-)

My apologies.

Sam
0
Sam
6/24/2001 3:44:00 AM
On Sat, 23 Jun 2001 20:44:43 -0700, Sam Schinke enlightened us all with:


>"Mitch B" <nunews@urviles.dyndns.org> wrote in message
>news:3b346de0.63659112@mitchb.org...
>> Excuse me --- me is a she :-)

>My apologies.

Not at all --- are you a Samuel or a Samantha ?   <g>

-- 
Mitch
0
Mitch
6/24/2001 10:40:00 AM
"Mitch B" <nunews@urviles.dyndns.org> wrote in message
news:3b35c336.46542653@mitchb.org...
> On Sat, 23 Jun 2001 20:44:43 -0700, Sam Schinke enlightened us all with:
>
>
> >"Mitch B" <nunews@urviles.dyndns.org> wrote in message
> >news:3b346de0.63659112@mitchb.org...
> >> Excuse me --- me is a she :-)
>
> >My apologies.
>
> Not at all --- are you a Samuel or a Samantha ?   <g>

Neither. *g* My parents decided to keep it simple AND to select a name that
could be interpreted as male or female, so I got "Sam".

My sister's name is equally amusing, but I won't be dragging her personal
information out into these groups.

Regards,
Sam
0
Sam
6/26/2001 12:57:00 AM
On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:57:38 -0700, Sam Schinke enlightened us all with:

>"Mitch B" <nunews@urviles.dyndns.org> wrote in message
>news:3b35c336.46542653@mitchb.org...

[..]
>> Not at all --- are you a Samuel or a Samantha ?   <g>

>Neither. *g* My parents decided to keep it simple AND to select a name that
>could be interpreted as male or female, so I got "Sam".

>My sister's name is equally amusing, but I won't be dragging her personal
>information out into these groups.

Ah, but are you her brother or her sister ?
;-)

-- 
Mitch
0
Mitch
6/26/2001 8:45:00 AM
"Mitch B" <nunews@urviles.dyndns.org> wrote in message
news:3b3a4b54.51369954@mitchb.org...
[...]
> Ah, but are you her brother or her sister ?

She has disavowed any relation to me on numerous occasions, so neither. *g*

Regards,
Sam
0
Sam
6/26/2001 9:59:00 AM
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