Gang,

Start your engines and reload your caches ...

http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm

(All of the images have changed.  So if it looks wrong try 
refreshing the page a few times.  :)

There's still a lot more still to do, but this gives you a 
sample of the menubar integrated into a GRC page header.  :)

.... and you'll note how cool the "edge buttons" look in this 
mode.  <g>

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

In grc.news Steve Gibson wrote:

> Gang,
> 
> Start your engines and reload your caches ...
> 
> http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm
> 
> (All of the images have changed.  So if it looks wrong try 
> refreshing the page a few times.  :)

All looks great in O Win32 9.0-8501

In O 8.54 the initial view appears (almost) unstyled.

  http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/3386/grcmenu630019ku.png

In message <MPG.1f0e6a6ebda9109cc60@4.79.142.203>, Steve Gibson 
<news06_@_grc.com> writes
>Gang,
>
>Start your engines and reload your caches ...
>
>http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm
>
>(All of the images have changed.  So if it looks wrong try
>refreshing the page a few times.  :)
>
>There's still a lot more still to do, but this gives you a
>sample of the menubar integrated into a GRC page header.  :)
>
>... and you'll note how cool the "edge buttons" look in this
>mode.  <g>

Yep.

Looking much better than the present menubar!
-- 
Dirk Engelage

to the house of a friend the road is never long

"Steve Gibson" <news06_@_grc.com> wrote in message 
news:MPG.1f0e6a6ebda9109cc60@4.79.142.203...
> Gang,
>
> Start your engines and reload your caches ...
>
> http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm

Looks good on both Firefox 1.5.0.4 and I E 6.

All that needs doing here that I can see is to change all those default.htm 
links to the correct pages.

Are you going to have a graceful way to deal with non-compliant browsers?  I 
have also been following this from work where I use the ancient Netscape 4.7 
on my ancient and not too powerful original Win 95 machine and it just looks 
like a regular fully expanded tree going down the page.  No menu at all.  (I 
guess the real question is ... is there a way to deal with non-compliant 
browsers?  Replacing the menu with a single static site map link or 
something?)

Brian 

In grc.news.feedback Mark V wrote:

> In grc.news Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
>> Gang,
>> 
>> Start your engines and reload your caches ...
>> 
>> http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm

Contains
  "http://www.steve/grcmenu.css"

Fixing path locally makes it work in 8.54 as expected.
:-)

Logo panel right end is still a problem with no CSS in both Operas.

O 8.54 still gets garbage menus here using "Fit".  That's a permanent 
restriction?

Steve Gibson said in:<news:MPG.1f0e6a6ebda9109cc60@4.79.142.203>:
> [...]
> http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm
> 
> (All of the images have changed.  So if it looks wrong try 
> refreshing the page a few times.  :)
> 
> There's still a lot more still to do, but this gives you a 
> sample of the menubar integrated into a GRC page header.  :)
> 
> ... and you'll note how cool the "edge buttons" look in this 
> mode.  <g>

Yeah, they do, but ... I think you can have too much of a good
thing. 

The 'metal pipe' motif was (and is, elsewhere on the site) cool and
distinctive. Tweaking the pipe for improved readability was fine,
too.

But adding this header and reshaping the pipe into one big combined
metal block (however cool the edge bevels), makes it look just like
any one of dozens of 'metal/silver' browser/OS skins out there :-

https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/101/previews/
https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/2484/previews/

Not to mention the whole Apple brushed metal thing. 

It sure looks precision honed and technical and clever. But it also
looks familiar (either I *have* seen the same look on a site
somewhere, or it conveys that impression: I honestly don't know
which), top-heavy (okay, there's no middle or bottom to the page
yet) and ... something of a cliche. To me :(

I'd much prefer the symmetrical 'pipe' shape to the menubar, with
this new sized header area as a logo and white text on a plain, deep
black background (like here, but above the menubar, and smaller:
http://www.grc.com/default.htm ). The black needn't have any 3D
shaping, as the pipe will seem to rise above it anyway (as it
already does, elsewhere).

Too much metal together (too much of any one thing together), for my
taste.
-- 

Milly

Am Thu, 29 Jun 2006 23:54:13 -0700, Steve Gibson sagt:

(See above)

Looks good here.
But, for the first time, I am seeing no bottom line under Dormant in the
Research dropdown, when I view with my old Firefox 0.8, and a vertical
scroll bar (with no slider button) in IE6.
Since I am not entirely certain whether these are known knowns, or
unknown knowns, I thought I might mention them here.
(Obviously, I do NOT expect you to accommodate FF 0.8. I hope I will be
replacing it very soon, health permitting).

-- 
Yrs & oblige
RH

Steve Gibson wrote:
> Gang,
> 
> Start your engines and reload your caches ...
> 
> http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm
> 
> (All of the images have changed.  So if it looks wrong try 
> refreshing the page a few times.  :)
> 
> There's still a lot more still to do, but this gives you a 
> sample of the menubar integrated into a GRC page header.  :)
> 
> ... and you'll note how cool the "edge buttons" look in this 
> mode.  <g>

You may be aware of this but there is still an issue when using the 
browser's "back" button - the "borders" around the selected menu item 
are becoming corrupted.
This *may* be a "feature" (mentioned in another thread) but if so then I 
feel it needs to be made more obvious that the intent is to show "where 
you've just been" - at present it just looks a bit odd...

<http://www.screwy-ut.myby.co.uk/images/beforeSR.png>
<http://www.screwy-ut.myby.co.uk/images/afterSR.png>

Sequence of events:- Load the initial page, click "Purchase SpinRite", 
click browser's "back" button. Note that it is not specific to that 
particular menu option.

Win2K/SP4, Firefox 1.5.0.4.

-- 
Steve.
Please reply to the group. From/ReplyTo are invalid.

Mister Hucker a �crit :
 
> Looks good here.
> But, for the first time, I am seeing no bottom line under Dormant in the
> Research dropdown, when I view with my old Firefox 0.8 

Not Steve of course, but...
Strange, I don't see the defect you mention - or any defect btw - in
my even older FB 0.7 here (on Win 2k, 1024x768 px). Maybe stupid of me
asking, but are you sure you did refresh all your caches?
 
, and a vertical
> scroll bar (with no slider button) in IE6.

Which I am not seing either. Please refresh your caches as per above
remark - including any external proxies/caches ? 

> Since I am not entirely certain whether these are known knowns, or
> unknown knowns, I thought I might mention them here.

If you can confirm the problems you see are persistent, you probably
should provide details of any thing particular to your settings (OS
version, screen resolution, browserwindow size...)

-- 
N.

Steve Gibson wrote:
> Gang,
> 
> Start your engines and reload your caches ...
> 
> http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm
> 
> (All of the images have changed.  So if it looks wrong try 
> refreshing the page a few times.  :)
> 
> There's still a lot more still to do, but this gives you a 
> sample of the menubar integrated into a GRC page header.  :)
> 
> ... and you'll note how cool the "edge buttons" look in this 
> mode.  <g>
> 

Ok, it's not nice to get one's hopes up. I see the OpenVPN portion of
the menu but it takes me to the home page... Not nice Steve.

> Sequence of events:- Load the initial page, click "Purchase SpinRite",
> click browser's "back" button. Note that it is not specific to that
> particular menu option.
> 
> Win2K/SP4, Firefox 1.5.0.4.

Screwball, unless I did not understand or apply your instructions
correctly, I don't see that happen in earlier Firebeasts (FF 1.0 or FB
0.7) nor in IE 6 - running like you on Win 2k SP4. 
Maybe others could test if it's just a new "feature" of FF 1.5 . 

-- 
N.

Ninho wrote:
>> Sequence of events:- Load the initial page, click "Purchase SpinRite",
>> click browser's "back" button. Note that it is not specific to that
>> particular menu option.
>>
>> Win2K/SP4, Firefox 1.5.0.4.
> 
> Screwball, unless I did not understand or apply your instructions
> correctly, I don't see that happen in earlier Firebeasts (FF 1.0 or FB
> 0.7) nor in IE 6 - running like you on Win 2k SP4. 
> Maybe others could test if it's just a new "feature" of FF 1.5 . 

Quite possible - gotta love "new features" ;)

I've tried this several times - repeatable every time. I cleared the 
cache before trying it, I don't use a proxy either locally or my ISP 
provided one. I use no themes or user-defined styles - this is pretty 
much a vanilla installation.

I'm fairly sure that Steve mentioned this as a deliberate feature 
(though I can't spot the particular post) as when you go "back" the menu 
is still in a "dropped down" state. If you return to the previous page 
by manually entering the url (as if there were a link to grcmenu.htm) 
then, of course, the menus are re-presented in their "closed" condition.

It's no biggy tbh, but we know Steve is a perfectionist :)

-- 
Steve.
Please reply to the group. From/ReplyTo are invalid.

Steve,

In IE 6.0 and FF 1.5.0.3, the OpenVPN button lacks a black line on the left 
side.  It looks like this is a missing part of the graphic, and not a CSS 
flaw, from what I see in an image posted by Mark V:

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/3386/grcmenu630019ku.png

Regarding Milly's thoughts about the whole metal thing:  I didn't even 
notice the top was styled like this right away.  I just noticed the buttons 
were styled without the dark gray at the top, and I liked it.  The current 
look seems fine to me, as I am not used to seeing metal themes like this. 
But, I think it may look even better with Milly's suggestions, and perhaps 
with the buttons shaded only on the bottom, as they are now.

-- 

Jason Doucette / Xona.com
www.jasondoucette.com / www.xona.com

Steve Gibson wrote:
> Gang,
> 
> Start your engines and reload your caches ...
> 
> http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm
> 
> (All of the images have changed.  So if it looks wrong try 
> refreshing the page a few times.  :)
> 
> There's still a lot more still to do, but this gives you a 
> sample of the menubar integrated into a GRC page header.  :)
> 
> ... and you'll note how cool the "edge buttons" look in this 
> mode.  <g>
> 

I like the way the site is coming together.  Like you, I'm trying to learn some 
CSS so that I can quickly and easily change the appearance of a site that I 
maintain.

With my browsers, the last button on the line is ALWAYS right justified, 
regardless of which browser I use (IE or Firefox on Windows or Linux).

Keep up the great work you are doing.  My wife and I (she has a small business) 
love listening to the podcast (yes, every one, starting with Security Now! #1)

-- Mike G
Cedar Rapids, IA

From MacOS 10.3.9:

Firefox 1.5.0.4, Flock 0.7.1, Safari 1.3.2, Camino 1.0.2, Opera 9.00, 
Seamonkey 1.0.2 look fine

iCab 3.0.2 has the Gibson Research logo and the menu next to each other 
on the same line.

In Mozilla 1.7.5, the Research and OpenVPN menus and Freeware/Security 
secondary menu are missing the border on the bottom of the pulldown menu.

Internet Explorer 5.2 does not support pulldown menus, but SG said this 
was not fixable.

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Milly wrote:

>>
>>... and you'll note how cool the "edge buttons" look in this 
>>mode.  <g>
> 
> 
> Yeah, they do, but ... I think you can have too much of a good
> thing. 
> 
> The 'metal pipe' motif was (and is, elsewhere on the site) cool and
> distinctive. Tweaking the pipe for improved readability was fine,
> too.
> 
> But adding this header and reshaping the pipe into one big combined
> metal block (however cool the edge bevels), makes it look just like
> any one of dozens of 'metal/silver' browser/OS skins out there :-

I think the current motif looks great, but the blank area looks out of
place. I think that could be improved by making the blank area look like
the attached image ...

-- 
____________                                                       _
,_ _  _| _  _|_   _ ,__   +-+-+-+-+-+- Go Hamster Go! -+-+-+-+-+-+  |
| | |(_|(/_(_| |o(_)|(_|  Get PGP key at http://www.mctech.org/pgp  |
mc at mctech dot org __|  The Paranoid Cynic             MicroChip _|

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In article <e832du$9ia$1@news.grc.com> Screwball wrote:
> 
> I've tried this several times - repeatable every time. I cleared the 
> cache before trying it, I don't use a proxy either locally or my ISP 
> provided one. I use no themes or user-defined styles - this is pretty 
> much a vanilla installation.
> 
The effect is due to a caching problem sometimes seen on CSS 
pages and Steve did explain it at one point.  The image is not 
persistent and pressing the Back button does not request a new 
image.  Easily solved by pressing the Reload button on Firefox.

-- 
Alan
Fundamental, irreducible primordial energy
exists in the absence of matter,
but matter is entirely dependent upon energy
and cannot exist in the absence of energy. - A.T. Williams
< http://hermital.org/book/holoprt2-1.htm >

In message <hwisg67j8r02.dlg@0O.0O>, Milly <?.?@?.?.?.?.?.?.invalid> 
writes
>Steve Gibson said in:<news:MPG.1f0e6a6ebda9109cc60@4.79.142.203>:
>> [...]
>> http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm

<snip>

>Yeah, they do, but ... I think you can have too much of a good
>thing.

<snip>

>Too much metal together (too much of any one thing together), for my
>taste.

It's all a matter of taste of course, but I sure don't agree with you on 
this, Milly. Although you're right about the fact that the metallic-look 
is being widely used, I find Steve's layout much better looking than 
most of what I've seen. Just my opinion . . .
-- 
Dirk Engelage

to the house of a friend the road is never long

hermital wrote:
> In article <e832du$9ia$1@news.grc.com> Screwball wrote:
>>
>> I've tried this several times - repeatable every time. I cleared the 
>> cache before trying it, I don't use a proxy either locally or my ISP 
>> provided one. I use no themes or user-defined styles - this is pretty 
>> much a vanilla installation.
>>
> The effect is due to a caching problem sometimes seen on CSS pages and 
> Steve did explain it at one point.  The image is not persistent and 
> pressing the Back button does not request a new image.  Easily solved by 
> pressing the Reload button on Firefox.
> 

Understood, though clicking "back" then immediately having to click 
"reload" is not something I would normally have to do or indeed even 
think of doing.
I just feel that it detracts from an otherwise clean and effective display.

-- 
Steve.
Please reply to the group. From/ReplyTo are invalid.

Am Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:14:49 +0200, Ninho sagt:

> Not Steve of course, but...
> Strange, I don't see the defect you mention - or any defect btw - in
> my even older FB 0.7 here (on Win 2k, 1024x768 px). Maybe stupid of me
> asking, but are you sure you did refresh all your caches?

Absolutely certain. Closed FF, ran CCleaner, and SurfSecret. Both are
set to delete FF cache, cookies, history, and there are no external
proxies or caches.
  
> , and a vertical
>> scroll bar (with no slider button) in IE6.
> 
> Which I am not seing either. Please refresh your caches as per above
> remark - including any external proxies/caches ? 

With IE, I have run ClearIECache.msi, and there are no IE temporary
internet files detectable by any of the various programs (Spider,
Index.Dat Suite, CCleaner) that I use.
 
> If you can confirm the problems you see are persistent, you probably
> should provide details of any thing particular to your settings (OS
> version, screen resolution, browserwindow size...)

Problems occur whether I click on the url provided in the OP, cut and
paste said url into FF or IE, or go from FF to IE via the 'View This
Page In IE' option in Firefox.

Same problems exactly every time. Neither one seen at any time
previously, and I have been trying to stay up to date with the menu bar
design evolution, and have tested most, if not all, versions released.

Using XP Home Edition SP1, 1280x1024, browser windows full size,
problems seen in 'normal' (iow not zoomed in or out) mode. Firefox 0.8
and IE6 (with Enough is Enough added). No style sheets or anything fancy
in use (would not know how). I am a Treewalk user, and have negative DNS
caching disabled. 

Also, I am not seeing the 'back button anomaly' reported by others. In
both FF 0.8 and IE6 there is no sign of the modified border areas
noticed by others.

-- 
Yrs & oblige
RH

In article <e833cb$ag2$1@news.grc.com> Jason Doucette wrote:
> 
> In IE 6.0 and FF 1.5.0.3, the OpenVPN button lacks a black line on the left 
> side.
> 
The black line on the OpenVPN end cap is clearly visible here in 
FF and IE 6 if the page is reduced in size (less than full 
screen).  The only difference I see is that IE 6 has a vertical 
scroll bar and FF doesn't...

FF:  http://www.hermital.org/images/GRCsiteMenu.gif
IE6: http://www.hermital.org/images/GRCsiteMenu2.gif

-- 
Alan
Fundamental, irreducible primordial energy
exists in the absence of matter,
but matter is entirely dependent upon energy
and cannot exist in the absence of energy. - A.T. Williams
< http://hermital.org/book/holoprt2-1.htm >

In article <e837g6$eg4$1@news.grc.com> Screwball wrote:
> 
> Understood, though clicking "back" then immediately having to click 
> "reload" is not something I would normally have to do or indeed even 
> think of doing.
> I just feel that it detracts from an otherwise clean and effective display.
> 
It's a common Web site practice.  If one chooses to return to 
previously posted information, one is often asked to press 
'Reload' or 'Refresh' to view non-cached information.

-- 
Alan
Fundamental, irreducible primordial energy
exists in the absence of matter,
but matter is entirely dependent upon energy
and cannot exist in the absence of energy. - A.T. Williams
< http://hermital.org/book/holoprt2-1.htm >

hermital writes:
> In article <e833cb$ag2$1@news.grc.com> Jason Doucette wrote:
>> In IE 6.0 and FF 1.5.0.3, the OpenVPN button lacks a black line on the left 
>> side.
>>
> The black line on the OpenVPN end cap is clearly visible here in 
> FF and IE 6 if the page is reduced in size (less than full 
> screen).

It is? I don't see it in your screen capture:
http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/4931/grcsitemenu1qq.gif

Wow, Mister Hucker! this is another mystery left for Steve to explore.
I usually have the screen at 1024x768 px, and since you mentionned
being at 1280x1024, I changed resolutions to yours just in case it
mattered but no problem with that. 

Your issue in FF 0.8 might be version dependent (I don't have it to
test), but I certainly am not seing the problem you reported in IE 6
either.

Regards

-- 
Ninho

In article <e839aa$gei$1@news.grc.com> Dennis Henderson wrote:
> hermital writes:
>> In article <e833cb$ag2$1@news.grc.com> Jason Doucette wrote:
>>> In IE 6.0 and FF 1.5.0.3, the OpenVPN button lacks a black line on the left 
>>> side.
>>>
>> The black line on the OpenVPN end cap is clearly visible here in 
>> FF and IE 6 if the page is reduced in size (less than full 
>> screen).
> 
> It is? I don't see it in your screen capture:
> http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/4931/grcsitemenu1qq.gif

Oooops!  Either I don't know my right from my left or I didn't
correctly grok the information Jason presented. :(

-- 
Alan
Fundamental, irreducible primordial energy
exists in the absence of matter,
but matter is entirely dependent upon energy
and cannot exist in the absence of energy. - A.T. Williams
< http://hermital.org/book/holoprt2-1.htm >

Steve Gibson wrote:
[...]
> ... and you'll note how cool the "edge buttons" look in this
> mode.  <g>

I also notice that it has re-broken Mozilla, at least here.

My guess is that your 1.5-line-height solution just "happened" to miss
having pixel border collisions when the menu was top-aligned. Moving it
down seems to have re-confused the menu locations.

Specifically, the Research menu and the Freeware->Security menus are missing
their bottom edges here.

In DOM Inspector, the box for the menu container is 56px high, and each menu
item is 14px. 14 * 4 is 56 too, so there is no padding leftover for a
border.

I still have some odd EM-based floating point values for height-related
things. They are:

For the Menu container:
font-size: 9.47368px
bottom: -56.1053px  (clearly rounded down)
height: 54.1053px (two px less than the "bottom")
line-height: 14.2105px

For the LI sub-menus:
font-size: 9.47368px
line-height: 14.2105px
height: 13.5263px

The container height seems to be a simple multiplier of the LI item's
height. All of the LI items round up, though, and the menu container rounds
down. Blammo, rounding error.

Regards,
Sam

hermital wrote:
> In article <e837g6$eg4$1@news.grc.com> Screwball wrote:
>>
>> Understood, though clicking "back" then immediately having to click 
>> "reload" is not something I would normally have to do or indeed even 
>> think of doing.
>> I just feel that it detracts from an otherwise clean and effective 
>> display.
>>
> It's a common Web site practice.  If one chooses to return to previously 
> posted information, one is often asked to press 'Reload' or 'Refresh' to 
> view non-cached information.

Indeed - but there you *have* entered information, not merely clicked a 
link, and you are specifically _asked_ to reload (which is not the case 
here).
In the end, it's up to Steve to decide whether it's worth spending time 
trying to fix something which (as I noted in an earlier post) is not 
really a "big deal".

-- 
Steve.
Please reply to the group. From/ReplyTo are invalid.

Sam Schinke wrote:

> Steve Gibson wrote:
> [...]
> 
>>... and you'll note how cool the "edge buttons" look in this
>>mode.  <g>
> 
> 
> I also notice that it has re-broken Mozilla, at least here.
> 
> My guess is that your 1.5-line-height solution just "happened" to miss
> having pixel border collisions when the menu was top-aligned. Moving it
> down seems to have re-confused the menu locations.

Looks fine here Sam. At least at 1280x1024 resolution.

-- 
____________                                                       _
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mc at mctech dot org __|  The Paranoid Cynic             MicroChip _|

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 23:54:13 -0700, Steve Gibson <news06_@_grc.com>
wrote:

>Gang,
>
>Start your engines and reload your caches ...
>
>http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm
>
>(All of the images have changed.  So if it looks wrong try 
>refreshing the page a few times.  :)
>
>There's still a lot more still to do, but this gives you a 
>sample of the menubar integrated into a GRC page header.  :)
>
>... and you'll note how cool the "edge buttons" look in this 
>mode.  <g>

Please disregard if these points have already been addressed in the 30
some messages I've yet to read.

- The area that is revealed when a button is "depressed" now appears
as a plain black block. I thought there had been some shading in that
area previously. If plain black is the only option, I think it might
look better if the revealed area was smaller.

- The text on the OpenVPN button appears to be a larger font.

- The response of the menu under FF 1.5 is amazing but some lagging is
apparent under IE6 and Opera 9.

-- 
js

Sam Schinke wrote:

> Steve Gibson wrote:
> [...]
> 
>>... and you'll note how cool the "edge buttons" look in this
>>mode.  <g>
> 
> 
> I also notice that it has re-broken Mozilla, at least here.
> 
> My guess is that your 1.5-line-height solution just "happened" to miss
> having pixel border collisions when the menu was top-aligned. Moving it
> down seems to have re-confused the menu locations.
> 
> Specifically, the Research menu and the Freeware->Security menus are missing
> their bottom edges here.
> 

It is *not* showing as broken here on Mozilla.................

Moz 1.7.5 on W2KSP4 at 1024X768

AlanD

> "Steve Gibson" <news06_@_grc.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1f0e6a6ebda9109cc60@4.79.142.203...
> > Gang,
> >
> > Start your engines and reload your caches ...
> >
> > http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm
>

Took a look at work on my ancient machine and IE 5.5, Win95A and 800x600. The
OpenVPN button has no black border on the left edge - don't know if this is
deliberate or not.  Scroll bar on the right with no button.

Brian

[For the unexcerpted original, see above]
Steve Gibson wrote ...

> Gang,
> 
> Start your engines and reload your caches ...
> 
> http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm

I like the look (though I've not been exposed to the "metal" look much) 
-- it's visually appealing, smooth.  The only thing that jarred me was 
the left side of the OpenVPN button.

-- 

Terry //

[For the unexcerpted original, see above]
Terry L. Webb wrote ...

> [For the unexcerpted original, see above]
> Steve Gibson wrote ...
> 
> > Gang,
> > 
> > Start your engines and reload your caches ...
> > 
> > http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm
> 
> I like the look (though I've not been exposed to the "metal" look much) 
> -- it's visually appealing, smooth.  The only thing that jarred me was 
> the left side of the OpenVPN button.

Another thing that jars me a bit (I'm being very nitpicky).

The right masthead (mh-r.gif) doesn't mesh as well with the OpenVPN 
button as does the left masthead with the Home button.  I think it's the 
vertical black line at the edge of the mh-r.gif.

-- 

Terry //

[for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]

> Contains
>   "http://www.steve/grcmenu.css"
> 
> Fixing path locally makes it work in 8.54 as expected.
> :-)

Ah!  You must have grabbed it the INSTANT I posted it! <g>
I quickly realized my error and updated the .htm file.

> Logo panel right end is still a problem with no CSS in both
> Operas.

Mark, GRC is slowly becoming a CSS-based site and, thus, a CSS-
dependent site. I waited as long as I did before ever using any 
CSS in order to be able to rely upon its support from our 
visitor's browsers.  So from here on out, I am assuming that the 
style sheet I provide will be used without modification, and 
that visitors will be viewing our pages with a CSS-capable 
browser.

So the fact that various image "chunks" are not properly 
positioned and assembled without CSS is not something I will 
ever focus upon or care about.  So the fact that our pages may 
still, to some degree, be viewable without CSS becomes an 
interesting side effect of CSS's separation of content and 
style.


> O 8.54 still gets garbage menus here using "Fit".
> That's a permanent restriction?

I have not been paying attention to the various non-standard and 
weird things that Opera can do to page display.  The version of 
Opera I downloaded and installed here is 9.00.  I'm not seeing 
any "Fit" option.  Where is it?

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Brian's post above]

> Looks good on both Firefox 1.5.0.4 and I E 6.

:)

> All that needs doing here that I can see is to change all
> those default.htm links to the correct pages.

Oh, Brian ... this whole thing still has a LONG LONG way to go!  
<g>  The menuing system will ultimately be generated entirely 
from Perl code that' driven by a schema of the GRC site.  It 
will also have Search and Site Map functions added in the upper 
region.  So this was just another baby-step toward that eventual 
goal.


> Are you going to have a graceful way to deal with non-compliant
> browsers?  I have also been following this from work where I
> use the ancient Netscape 4.7 on my ancient and not too powerful
> original Win 95 machine and it just looks like a regular fully
> expanded tree going down the page.  No menu at all.  (I guess
> the real question is ... is there a way to deal with non-compliant 
> browsers?  Replacing the menu with a single static site map link or 
> something?)

Unfortunately, this is the down-side of using a non-scripting 
pure CSS approach.  The fully expanded tree menu in all its huge 
glory with no CSS to manage it.

Fortunately, we now have cookies that can be used to tame things 
for such users.  <g>  And since the menuing system will be 
"inserted" into every page on the fly, it'll be possible to have 
a means for turn it off.

I'll be able to have a prominent button that's normally hidden 
by CSS which will be shown to non-CSS browsers.  It will allow 
anyone visiting with a non-compliant browser to easy and 
"stickily" turn our top-of-screen menus on or off and, perhaps, 
give them other options as well.

(I'm glad you brought this up.  I've added it to my To-Do list.)

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

On Friday, 30 June 2006 02:54, in newsgroup grc.news.feedback, Steve Gibson
wrote:

> Gang,
> 
> Start your engines and reload your caches ...
> 
> http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm
> 
[...]

Very very nice.  I have to say that I really can't see what's left to add. 
But then again, what do I know.  In any case, to my totally uneducated
eyes, it's number 1.

MP

[for the unabridged version, see default's post above]

> Took a look at work on my ancient machine and IE 5.5, Win95A
> and 800x600. The OpenVPN button has no black border on the
> left edge - don't know if this is deliberate or not.  Scroll
> bar on the right with no button.

The "highlight" on the left edge of the OpenVPN button *was* 
deliberate, but it's an effect that obviously didn't work, and 
doesn't work, without an immediately adjacent "lowlight" as 
exists with the other inter-button gaps.

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see MicroChip's post above]

> I think the current motif looks great, but the blank area
> looks out of place. I think that could be improved by making
> the blank area look like the attached image ...

Oh, MC, we still have a LONG LONG way to go!  That "blank area" 
won't be blank for long!  <g>  There's still the Search and Site 
Map functions to be added.  And the whole thing will become 
active with hover-over text stuff too.  :)

So this was just a first step toward one idea for a treatment of 
GRC's new "top of page" header.

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

Steve Gibson wrote:
> Gang,
> 
> Start your engines and reload your caches ...
> 
> http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm
> 

You know I'm going to comment on the use of styles in the HTML again ;) 
  I myself would pull those out and make them rules in the CSS. 
Creating a .floatright class is something that I would do anyway as it's 
something commonly done and I would just target all other images in the 
  .masthead class to float: left;

..masthead img {
	float: left;
}

..floatright {
	float: right;
}

<div class="masthead">
	<img src="image/mh-l.gif" width="347" height="60" alt="" />
	<img class="floatright" src="image/mh-r.gif" width="7" height="60" 
alt="" />
</div>

As you can see wrapping the images in <spans> isn't needed.

As to the look, I like it, although I do think your new logo does take 
up a large amount of space.  With a narrow window it doesn't leave much 
space to the right for your custom text box.

I think I might reduce the size of the logo text somewhat, making it 
shorter and perhaps you could put the "site map" and "search" buttons 
below it.

Steve Gibson wrote:
> Gang,
>
> Start your engines and reload your caches ...
>
> http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm
>
> (All of the images have changed.  So if it looks wrong try 
> refreshing the page a few times.  :)
>   
I really like how it's all beginning to look. Very cool.

There appears to be a bit of a bug with the Research menu that is 
causing a vertical scroll bar to appear when it's not necessary.

If you size the window so that no V scroll bar appears when the OpenVPN 
menu is active and the go to the Research button menu the V scroll bar 
appears when the Current, Pending or Dormant sub menu is active but 
strangely not when the Historical sub menu is active which is the 
longest sub menu.

Seen in IE 6, Firefox 1.5.0.4 and Opera 9.0 on XP Home SP2

[for the unabridged version, see Milly's post above]

Milly,

I'll do a treatment such as you suggest -- just a black upper 
region with the "menu pipe" below it -- for comparison since I 
want to see that too. But I like this present look a great deal. 
If I can come up with something better, so much the better. But 
if this current look is where we wind up I'll be able to live 
with this happily for a long time.

(And, of course, the top-of-page injection technology will allow
it to be changed any time we wish.)

For what it's worth, I think that the subtle flat and smooth 
high-polish metal look it has is clean and contemporary and 
quite different from any others I've seen. As you said, it looks 
extremely clean and "tooled" and precise, which I like a lot. 

And the only thing it really has in common with other 
"metallic" concepts is that it's also metallic -- which I don't 
hold against it as you do because I think that's its great 
merit. It is not Apple's "brushed metal" with a gradual side-to-
side brightness fade, nor is it the now common slow bottom to 
top brightness graduation. So, while it seems to be your opinion 
that, being metallic, it's been done before ... I've never seen 
anything like it.

One of the other considerations is that it's neutral and 
different from anything we currently have at GRC.  I like that 
this sets it apart from whatever page will be appearing below. 
This new page header will literally be "injected" into the top 
of all of GRC's current pages so it needs to interface smoothly 
with whatever happens to lie at what used to be the top of the 
page.  Since GRC's pages are currently either all white or 
"black header", I like this present look since it's distinctive 
from the pages that will be below.

All that said ... I'll next pursue a black region for 
comparison.  :)

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 20:02:25 +0200, Steve Gibson <news06_@_grc.com> wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]
>> O 8.54 still gets garbage menus here using "Fit".
>> That's a permanent restriction?
>
> I have not been paying attention to the various non-standard and
> weird things that Opera can do to page display.  The version of
> Opera I downloaded and installed here is 9.00.  I'm not seeing
> any "Fit" option.  Where is it?

View > Fit to width (Ctrl + F11)

[for the unabridged version, see Screwball's post above]

Screwball ...

Two different (but related) things are going on there.

First, Firefox and Opera leave their menus "up" upon return to a 
page that was left via the menuing system.  It's unfortunate, 
but everyone's feeling is that someone who goes to a new page 
which also contains the identical menu that they just left 
(which we don't have now so you need to press [back]) is more 
likely to simply use the menu on that new page then press [back] 
just to return to the menu on the previous page.  So ... in 
practice, this probably won't even be seen.

The second factor you saw and termed "corrupted borders" is the 
effect of the dotted "selection ring" surrounding the item you 
selected and clicked on.  It was highlighted just as you were 
leaving the page so you didn't see it then.  But it's still 
there when you use the [back] button to return.

In neither case can I do anything about this without adding some 
scripting, which we could make optional.  But, again, since I 
think people are FAR more likely to use the ever-present menu on 
the page they land on rather than an unnecessary [back] button, 
I don't expect this to be a significant problem.  :)

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see John Doe's post above]

> Ok, it's not nice to get one's hopes up. I see the OpenVPN
> portion of the menu but it takes me to the home page... Not
> nice Steve.

There's only one of me.  And without this menu there was nowhere 
to PUT all of those OpenVPN pages!  It was the need to give the 
forthcoming OpenVPN pages somewhere coherent to live that was a 
large part of my decision to finally give GRC some central 
navigation system.  (And ... the titles of all of those pages 
underneath the OpenVPN menu item were taken directly from the 
main OpenVPN directory page.  :)

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

"Steve Gibson" <news06_@_grc.com> wrote:
>> Are you going to have a graceful way to deal with non-compliant
>> browsers?  I have also been following this from work where I
>> use the ancient Netscape 4.7 on my ancient and not too powerful
>> original Win 95 machine and it just looks like a regular fully
>> expanded tree going down the page.  No menu at all.  (I guess
>> the real question is ... is there a way to deal with non-compliant
>> browsers?  Replacing the menu with a single static site map link or
>> something?)
>
> Unfortunately, this is the down-side of using a non-scripting
> pure CSS approach.  The fully expanded tree menu in all its huge
> glory with no CSS to manage it.
>
> Fortunately, we now have cookies that can be used to tame things
> for such users.  <g>  And since the menuing system will be
> "inserted" into every page on the fly, it'll be possible to have
> a means for turn it off.
>
> I'll be able to have a prominent button that's normally hidden
> by CSS which will be shown to non-CSS browsers.  It will allow
> anyone visiting with a non-compliant browser to easy and
> "stickily" turn our top-of-screen menus on or off and, perhaps,
> give them other options as well.
>
> (I'm glad you brought this up.  I've added it to my To-Do list.)

While you are doing this you might want to think about accessability for 
disabled users. I'm not sure what sort of browsers blind people use, but I 
think that some people who are partially sighted want to use alternate style 
sheets to make text bigger. I think that some people also have browsers that 
read things out. You might be able to add a button that toggles an alternate 
CSS sheet on and off (and use the second style sheet to enlarge text, remove 
images or do other things).

A PDA friendly alternate style sheet might also help people who want to view 
your site on a Palm Pilot or similar device.
-- 
David Shepheard
(please reply in list as email address is fake) 

[for the unabridged version, see Jason Doucette's post above]

> In IE 6.0 and FF 1.5.0.3, the OpenVPN button lacks a black line
> on the left side.  It looks like this is a missing part of the
> graphic, and not a CSS flaw, from what I see in an image posted
> by Mark V:
> 
> http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/3386/grcmenu630019ku.png

Yeah.  Well ... if you look closely you'll see that there's 
actually a highlighted edge there.  I was being faithful to the 
lighting model and bordering the objects' left edges with a 
highlight just as I border their right edges with a lowlight.

But it clearly doesn't work in the case that there's a blank 
region to the left so I'll need to do something else.  (You'll 
note, though, that it *does* work perfectly if you squeeze the 
page width down until the OpenVPN button touches the Research 
button.  :)


> Regarding Milly's thoughts about the whole metal thing:  I
> didn't even notice the top was styled like this right away.
> I just noticed the buttons were styled without the dark gray
> at the top, and I liked it.  The current look seems fine to
> me, as I am not used to seeing metal themes like this.

That's my feeling too.  Milly was a lot more negative about the 
whole metallic theme idea than I am.  Whenever I look at it 
again it just looks beautiful and precise and clean and smooth.


> But, I think it may look even better with Milly's suggestions,
> and perhaps with the buttons shaded only on the bottom, as
> they are now.

I'll try it both ways.

One thing I can say is that the shaded-bottom-only buttons look 
SPECTACULAR when placed at the very top of the page!  It's sort 
of a pity that I'm committed to having the menu bar below a 
header region (as I am) since those buttons are amazing looking 
when they directly abut the top of the browser's page!  :)

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Mike Gillmore's post above]

Hi Mike.

Thanks for your comments.  :)


> I like the way the site is coming together.  Like you, I'm
> trying to learn some CSS so that I can quickly and easily
> change the appearance of a site that I maintain.

It's interesting that quickly and easily changing the appearance 
of a CSS-styled site is so often cited as a benefit of using 
CSS.  Perhaps it's because I've never had the ability to do so, 
that that particular benefit seems like a capability in search 
of a need rather than the other way around.  As the rather 
design-Spartan nature of my pages attests, I'm always much more 
interested in communicating the content than in spending time on 
fancy pages.

So, for me at least, CSS is exciting because it will allow my 
pages to be much "lighter weight" by moving a great deal of the 
appearance specification into a single global static stylesheet 
file which, once retrieved, can be referenced over and over by 
the user's browser as it renders pages that are then smaller 
because they contain much more content and much less built-in 
styling.


> With my browsers, the last button on the line is ALWAYS right
> justified, regardless of which browser I use (IE or Firefox on
> Windows or Linux).

Yes!  And it was damned difficult to do too!  <<grin>>  That's 
deliberate Mike.  But everything here is still in its very early 
design stages and still not functional.  It'll all make more 
sense once it's "together".  :)


> Keep up the great work you are doing.  My wife and I (she has
> a small business) love listening to the podcast (yes, every
> one, starting with Security Now! #1)

Cool!  Thanks!

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Dave Filpus's post above]

> From MacOS 10.3.9:
> 
> Firefox 1.5.0.4, Flock 0.7.1, Safari 1.3.2, Camino 1.0.2,
> Opera 9.00, Seamonkey 1.0.2 look fine

Yay!

> iCab 3.0.2 has the Gibson Research logo and the menu next
> to each other on the same line.

I had installed iCab on my Mac, but I can't find it now.
(I barely know my way around a Mac.  :)  I'll see what I can 
find.


> In Mozilla 1.7.5, the Research and OpenVPN menus and
> Freeware/Security secondary menu are missing the border
> on the bottom of the pulldown menu.

As Sam has confirmed, the vertical drop of the menu, down from 
the top of the page, has apparently resurfaced the Mozilla 
rounding error for some people.  I'm on it.  :)


> Internet Explorer 5.2 does not support pulldown menus,
> but SG said this was not fixable.

I'll need to look at IE/Mac again.  Thanks for the reminder!

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Sam Schinke's post above]

> The container height seems to be a simple multiplier of the
> LI item's height. All of the LI items round up, though, and
> the menu container rounds down. Blammo, rounding error.

Boy.  Indeed.

Since you're on top of this, do you feel like figuring out where 
I could place the menubar, height-wise, so that we're back to an 
always-working location?

I chose the current height of the region above the bar rather 
arbitrarily at 60px.  I could easily nudge it one direction or 
the other!  <g>

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see john .s. smith's post above]

Hi John,

> Please disregard if these points have already been addressed
> in the 30 some messages I've yet to read.

Nope ... those are new comments.  :)


> - The area that is revealed when a button is "depressed" now
> appears as a plain black block. I thought there had been some
> shading in that area previously. If plain black is the only
> option, I think it might look better if the revealed area was
> smaller.

Due to a clipping limitation under IE5.x/Win the buttons only 
drop one pixel, not two.  It look "okay", but I like the larger 
drop more.  The coloration of the gap that's opened *could* be 
lightened.  I suppose that's worth a try, though, again, black 
seems right.


> - The text on the OpenVPN button appears to be a larger font.

Sharp eyes.  It's not actually a larger font, it's still 9pt 
Verdana.  But I was experimenting with the "kerning" to give the 
letters a bit more space to enhance readability on menu items 
where space was not at a premium.


> - The response of the menu under FF 1.5 is amazing but some
> lagging is apparent under IE6 and Opera 9.

I've seen the same thing.  You'll also notice that the larger 
the menu "region" the slower the response on slower machines.  
It's just that there's a LOT of work being done by the CSS 
layout system to figure out how the menu should look.

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Terry L. Webb's post above]

> I like the look (though I've not been exposed to the "metal"
> look much)

You don't need to apologize for not agreeing with Milly's 
assessment that "metallic" has all been done before and is now 
passe. I don't agree with that at all and I like this present 
look very much.  <g>


> -- it's visually appealing, smooth.

Frankly ... I think it's lovely, perfect, tight, tooled, and 
connoting precision and an eye for detail.  All things that I 
care about very much.  I'll continue looking for something 
better ... but I'm already very happy with this.

> The only thing that jarred me was the left side of the OpenVPN
> button.

Yep.  That "highlight" there didn't work.  I'll need to do 
something else.  Probably just give it a dark left border like 
the "Research" button has a dark right border.  :)

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Terry L. Webb's post above]

> Another thing that jars me a bit (I'm being very nitpicky).

Nitpicky is good here.


> The right masthead (mh-r.gif) doesn't mesh as well with the
> OpenVPN button as does the left masthead with the Home button.
> I think it's the vertical black line at the edge of the mh-r.gif.

Hmmmmmmm.  I've look very closely and I can't see that at all.  
For me both side look precise and perfect and identical.  Can 
you arrange a snapshot of what you're seeing?

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see botsing's post above]

> View > Fit to width (Ctrl + F11)

Wow!  Hidden right there on the main View menu!  <<grin>>

And speaking of "WOW!" ... what an AMAZING JOB Opera does with 
width-scaling a page.  I'm very impressed!

Mark: What's the problem??  It all looks amazing to me.

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Mister Hucker's post above]

> Looks good here.

> But, for the first time, I am seeing no bottom line under
> Dormant in the Research dropdown, when I view with my old
> Firefox 0.8, and a vertical scroll bar (with no slider button)
> in IE6.

Yes.  Sam has determined that my moving of the menu vertically 
down by 60 pixels has again upset the old Mozilla-code rounding 
rendering error.  We've also seen that the very old Firefoxen 
are also victims since they used a similar engine back then.

We're examining whether there's another vertical positioning 
where the menu can live happily.

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[For the unexcerpted original, see above]
Steve Gibson wrote ...

> [for the unabridged version, see Terry L. Webb's post above]
> 
> [...]
> > The right masthead (mh-r.gif) doesn't mesh as well with the
> > OpenVPN button as does the left masthead with the Home button.
> > I think it's the vertical black line at the edge of the mh-r.gif.
> 
> Hmmmmmmm.  I've look very closely and I can't see that at all.  
> For me both side look precise and perfect and identical.  Can 
> you arrange a snapshot of what you're seeing?

Could be a rendering issue in Opera 8.54 or my eyes. :)

Screen capture should be below ... look at the last vertical row of 
pixels.

-- 

Terry //

begin 755 Capture.png
MB5!.1PT*&@H````-24A$4@```R````!:"`(```#/0Z4%````"7!(67,```[#
M```.PP'';ZAD```@`$E$051XVNV=>UQ4U[7XU\`@,#",#"#&$5!$0%2,@`]$
M2["!>$U,-,_:O'Y>;ZZM]=I$DR9I]:+15E/1F,9ZJXG-QZ9IC$ECS$.M6"84
MD:("@CK*B(#@$`;FP<PP[P>_/W8]/9Z9.9P9!@1=WP]_#/OLL\]>:Z]]]IJU
MUSD#@"`(@B`(@@04'@#LV[</%8$@"((@"!(05JU:Q2>?8F-C41T(@B`(@B`#
M1*52`0"?^E\L%J-2$`1!$`1!_$:CT9`/?'II='0TJ@9!$`1!$,0/M%HM]9G/
M.!85%84*0A`$01`$\0F]7D__E^]>(R(B`M6$(`B"(`C"$:/1R"CA>ZPG$`A0
M60B"(`B"(/UB,IG<"X-0+PB"(`B"(($%'2P$01`$01!TL!`$01`$0=#!0A`$
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`
end

[for the unabridged version, see Martin Paquet's post above]

> > http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm
> > 
> [...]
> 
> Very very nice.  I have to say that I really can't see what's
> left to add.  But then again, what do I know.  In any case, to
> my totally uneducated eyes, it's number 1.

I think so too Martin.  I really love it.  But there's a LOT 
left to add!  I need to explore other looks before I settle upon 
this one and make a deeper investment.

And once that's done we need to have the Site Map and Search 
fields added ... and the tracking pop-up menu help that I'm 
wanting to experiment with.  :)

And THEN it all needs to be moved into a dynamically code-
generated mode that's driven by a site-wide "schema" so that the 
menus are dynamic, the neighborhood button and menu changes, the 
neighborhood button graphic is rendered on the fly and 
automatically linked-in ...

.... and finally ... the whole thing is dynamically inserted at 
the top of all GRC pages.

So ... there's still a little bit to go.  :)

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Terry L. Webb's post above]

> Could be a rendering issue in Opera 8.54 or my eyes. :)
> 
> Screen capture should be below ... look at the last vertical
> row of pixels.

Darn.  You're sure right Terry!  The menu is missing its right 
side border.  :(  Darn.

It's present under all of my browsers here ... I have Opera 9.

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[For the unexcerpted original, see above]
Steve Gibson wrote ...

> [for the unabridged version, see Terry L. Webb's post above]
> 
> > I like the look (though I've not been exposed to the "metal"
> > look much)
> 
> You don't need to apologize for not agreeing with Milly's 
> assessment that "metallic" has all been done before and is now 
> passe. I don't agree with that at all and I like this present 
> look very much.  <g>

Well ... disagreeing with Milly isn't easy (for me, because it's not 
often that I disagree). <g>

.... and, FWIW, I like the present look a great deal, too; but, as we 
have learned, things have a way of evolving in this group. :)

-- 

Terry //

[For the unexcerpted original, see above]
Steve Gibson wrote ...

> [for the unabridged version, see Terry L. Webb's post above]
> 
> > Could be a rendering issue in Opera 8.54 or my eyes. :)
> > 
> > Screen capture should be below ... look at the last vertical
> > row of pixels.
> 
> Darn.  You're sure right Terry!  The menu is missing its right 
> side border.  :(  Darn.
> 
> It's present under all of my browsers here ... I have Opera 9.

Should there be a left border on the menu?  It looks like there's one to 
the left of the Home button.

-- 

Terry //

Steve Gibson wrote:
> [for the unabridged version, see Screwball's post above]
> 
> Screwball ...
> 
> Two different (but related) things are going on there.

Considering the hoops you've had to jump through to get this working at 
all, I am really not surprised at that.

> First, Firefox and Opera leave their menus "up" upon return to a 
> page that was left via the menuing system.  It's unfortunate, 
> but everyone's feeling is that someone who goes to a new page 
> which also contains the identical menu that they just left 
> (which we don't have now so you need to press [back]) is more 
> likely to simply use the menu on that new page then press [back] 
> just to return to the menu on the previous page.  So ... in 
> practice, this probably won't even be seen.

Right - but there is always the accidental click of the wrong menu item 
- the "usual" response in such circumstances would be to hit "back".
(I know, I do it often enough :-( )

> The second factor you saw and termed "corrupted borders" is the 
> effect of the dotted "selection ring" surrounding the item you 
> selected and clicked on.  It was highlighted just as you were 
> leaving the page so you didn't see it then.  But it's still 
> there when you use the [back] button to return.

Aha so that's what it is - still selected but no longer highlighted.

> In neither case can I do anything about this without adding some 
> scripting, which we could make optional.  But, again, since I 
> think people are FAR more likely to use the ever-present menu on 
> the page they land on rather than an unnecessary [back] button, 
> I don't expect this to be a significant problem.  :)

Agreed - It really isn't worth spending any time on, but the one thing 
you can guarantee that users will do is the unexpected (or the downright 
illogical) :-)

Cheers.

-- 
Steve.
Please reply to the group. From/ReplyTo are invalid.

[For the unexcerpted original, see above]
Terry L. Webb wrote ...

> Should there be a left border on the menu?  It looks like there's one to 
> the left of the Home button.

Disregard, I see that the "border" is part of the Home button image.

-- 

Terry //

On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:46:02 -0700, Steve Gibson <news06_@_grc.com>
wrote:

>[for the unabridged version, see john .s. smith's post above]
>
>> - The area that is revealed when a button is "depressed" now
>> appears as a plain black block. I thought there had been some
>> shading in that area previously. If plain black is the only
>> option, I think it might look better if the revealed area was
>> smaller.
>
>Due to a clipping limitation under IE5.x/Win the buttons only 
>drop one pixel, not two.  It look "okay", but I like the larger 
>drop more.  The coloration of the gap that's opened *could* be 
>lightened.  I suppose that's worth a try, though, again, black 
>seems right.

There have been too many feedback posts for me to keep up with so
maybe you made a change decision that I missed.

Referring to the attached graphics in a previous post:

Message-ID: <ig2rqzzaqe9x.j7m39rwxv98o$.dlg@40tude.net>
X-Url: http://www.GRC.com/groups/news.feedback:64807

The buttons in the latest version no longer have shading at the top so
the black revealed space has not changed but previously was less
distinct.

http://img307.imageshack.us/img307/7671/button19wq.png
http://img307.imageshack.us/img307/4096/button27mu.png

Unless there are other considerations, I prefer the buttons with
shading on the top.

-- 
js

Steve Gibson wrote:
> Gang,
> 
> Start your engines and reload your caches ...
> 
> http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm
> 
> (All of the images have changed.  So if it looks wrong try 
> refreshing the page a few times.  :)
> 
> There's still a lot more still to do, but this gives you a 
> sample of the menubar integrated into a GRC page header.  :)
> 
> ... and you'll note how cool the "edge buttons" look in this 
> mode.  <g>

It looks wonderful!  There is one little quirk in the menu 
system, that perhaps you will want to look into.

Try this:

Move your mouse pointer to the "Home" button on the menu.  The 
menu drops down, and the first item is "Site Map", which provides 
a good test of this because I can see that you have something 
*other* than default.htm as the target.  Now, *without* moving 
your mouse pointer, so that nothing has yet been highlighted in 
the drop-down menu, left-click on the "Home" button itself.  It 
takes you to the default.htm page.

What would you say is the predicted and/or desired behavior in 
this case?  I would say it certainly *could* be to go to the 
default page, since the buttom is labeled "Home".  Unfortunately 
I can't test to see if clicking the "SpinRite" button would take 
you to the SpinRite main page or to the default.htm page, because 
the first item in the menu points to the default page anyway.

In any event, my own expectation would be that clicking on the 
button would cause the drop-down menu to drop down.  Since it's 
already down and visible, I would expect a click to do nothing in 
this context.

Just something to mention, in case you haven't run into this. 
It's probably not a big deal, but I thought it worth asking about.

-- 
Bob Trevithick

[For the unexcerpted original, see above]
Steve Gibson wrote ...

> [for the unabridged version, see Terry L. Webb's post above]
> 
> > Could be a rendering issue in Opera 8.54 or my eyes. :)
> > 
> > Screen capture should be below ... look at the last vertical
> > row of pixels.
> 
> Darn.  You're sure right Terry!  The menu is missing its right 
> side border.  :(  Darn.
> 
> It's present under all of my browsers here ... I have Opera 9.

Update: I noticed that there was a HScroll bar at the bottom (I missed 
that important datum before) and so I scrolled right.  There's 1 extra 
column of pixels at the end (see screen capture).

My screen resolution is 800x600.  It appears that Opera 8.54 is 
rendering the page as 801 pixels wide.

-- 

Terry //

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`
end

>> In IE 6.0 and FF 1.5.0.3, the OpenVPN button lacks a black line
>> on the left side.  It looks like this is a missing part of the
>> graphic, and not a CSS flaw, from what I see in an image posted
>> by Mark V:
>>
>> http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/3386/grcmenu630019ku.png
>
> Yeah.  Well ... if you look closely you'll see that there's
> actually a highlighted edge there.  I was being faithful to the
> lighting model and bordering the objects' left edges with a
> highlight just as I border their right edges with a lowlight.

Oh, right.  I guess I thought the black was the border around the buttons, 
and not a part of the buttons themselves.


> But it clearly doesn't work in the case that there's a blank
> region to the left so I'll need to do something else.  (You'll
> note, though, that it *does* work perfectly if you squeeze the
> page width down until the OpenVPN button touches the Research
> button.  :)

Yes, indeed it does!  :)  And if you added a black outline to the left of 
the OpenVPN button, you'd have a double column of black when the buttons 
touch.  (I am not sure how often this will ever happen, though.)


>> Regarding Milly's thoughts about the whole metal thing:  I
>> didn't even notice the top was styled like this right away.
>> I just noticed the buttons were styled without the dark gray
>> at the top, and I liked it.  The current look seems fine to
>> me, as I am not used to seeing metal themes like this.
>
> That's my feeling too.  Milly was a lot more negative about the
> whole metallic theme idea than I am.  Whenever I look at it
> again it just looks beautiful and precise and clean and smooth.

After reading your response to Milly's post, I agree that this will look 
great at the top of all of your pages, and I understand more about what you 
were trying to accomplish (the idea that it has to fit in with the content 
of all of your pages).

Great work, as always!

-- 

Jason Doucette / Xona.com
www.jasondoucette.com / www.xona.com

Milly wrote:

> I'd much prefer the symmetrical 'pipe' shape to the menubar, with
> this new sized header area as a logo and white text on a plain, deep
> black background (like here, but above the menubar, and smaller:
> http://www.grc.com/default.htm ). The black needn't have any 3D
> shaping, as the pipe will seem to rise above it anyway (as it
> already does, elsewhere).

I don't believe I've ever disagreed with you before, Milly.. 
largely because you have the annoying habit of always being 
right.  :)  But I really love the look of the current test page, 
and think it's unique and attractive.  Even if it weren't unique, 
that wouldn't make it less attractive in my eyes.

But, to soften this crushing blow, I'll concede to you that I've 
set up Thunderbird here to have a light *yellow* background!  I 
think it's legible and easier on the eyes.. so I guess you're 
slowly bringing me around to see the wisdom of the "Yellow 
Policy."  <g>

-- 
Bob Trevithick

Screwball wrote:
> Ninho wrote:
> 
>>> Sequence of events:- Load the initial page, click "Purchase SpinRite",
>>> click browser's "back" button. Note that it is not specific to that
>>> particular menu option.
>>>
>>> Win2K/SP4, Firefox 1.5.0.4.
>>
>>
>> Screwball, unless I did not understand or apply your instructions
>> correctly, I don't see that happen in earlier Firebeasts (FF 1.0 or FB
>> 0.7) nor in IE 6 - running like you on Win 2k SP4. Maybe others could 
>> test if it's just a new "feature" of FF 1.5 . 

> Quite possible - gotta love "new features" ;)
> 
> I've tried this several times - repeatable every time. I cleared the 
> cache before trying it, I don't use a proxy either locally or my ISP 
> provided one. I use no themes or user-defined styles - this is pretty 
> much a vanilla installation.
> 
> I'm fairly sure that Steve mentioned this as a deliberate feature 

I *think* Steve said that with tongue firmly planted in cheek. 
On my work machine, with XP and FF 1.5, I see the same thing 
happening.  On my home machine, with Unbuntu and FF 1.0.7 it does 
NOT happen.  It may very well be a newly introduced quirk of FF.

-- 
Bob Trevithick

Steve Gibson wrote:

> First, Firefox and Opera leave their menus "up" upon return to a 
> page that was left via the menuing system.  It's unfortunate, 
> but everyone's feeling is that someone who goes to a new page 
> which also contains the identical menu that they just left 
> (which we don't have now so you need to press [back]) is more 
> likely to simply use the menu on that new page then press [back] 
> just to return to the menu on the previous page.  So ... in 
> practice, this probably won't even be seen.

Actually, when they reach the new page, they be given a menu 
which has changed slightly in the local neighborhood on the right 
if nowhere else.  Perhaps that in itself will constitute enough 
of a reload to prevent the problem?

-- 
Bob Trevithick

Steve Gibson wrote:

> There's only one of me.

When making a statement like that, it would be good to provide us 
with some sort of link or reference.  Can you point to any 
supporting documentation of any kind to justify such a statement? 
  Or are we to simply take your word for it?  :)

Don't mind me.. feeling woozy after mowing in the hot sun.  Time 
to stop posting until I cool down to normal operating 
temperature.  <g>

-- 
Bob Trevithick

In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see botsing's post above]
> 
>> View > Fit to width (Ctrl + F11)
> 
> Wow!  Hidden right there on the main View menu!  <<grin>>
> 
> And speaking of "WOW!" ... what an AMAZING JOB Opera does with 
> width-scaling a page.  I'm very impressed!
> 
> Mark: What's the problem??  It all looks amazing to me.

Both Milly and I and some one else have reported this previously 
several times.  And Milly posted screen-shots too.  At some point 
you changed something that fixed it it Opera 9.0-8501 (but not 8505 
IIRC) and not 8.54.  And that was mentioned too.  ("can't keep up" 
is certainly understandable)  At this point I was just asking if 
this problem is a known "permanent restriction" of your site when 
used with Opera 8.54 and it's "Fit to width" feature, since you 
seem to have moved on to visual impression issues and prior to 
"info text".

Opera 8.54 is widely used by many and likely to be for quite some 
while since it is not EoL'd and will receive any needed security 
updates for some time.  

If this is something that can never work or is deemed too old to 
try and it is a restriction to be expected, then that is something 
worth acknowledging from your end.  OTOH if you have never yet been 
aware of it and wish to address it, that is also worth knowing I 
believe.  So ultimately it is just clarification from you I seek on 
this one.

It is true that this is only seen when "Fit" is used and thus the 
end-user has recourse by disengaging "Fit"

Here is a composite of menus under these conditions as seen here 
for reference.

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1552/grc630017dw.png

In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Steve Gibson wrote:

>> View > Fit to width (Ctrl + F11)

Here is what Opera 8.54 looks like when using "Fit..."

http://www.GRC.com/groups/test:30322

I can not make the menus do that "left stacking" thing.
Probably stopped when you made menu go all the way across the screen.

And did I read sometime that...

Opera(at least 8x)* will always have Horz. scroll bar?

  *I dread working on Opera9(to learn & customize)
-- 
OpenPGP: id=18795161E22D3905; preference=signencrypt;
            url=http://guysalias.batcave.net/pgpkeys.txt

In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]
> 
>> Contains
>>   "http://www.steve/grcmenu.css"
>> 
>> Fixing path locally makes it work in 8.54 as expected.
>> :-)
> 
> Ah!  You must have grabbed it the INSTANT I posted it! <g>
> I quickly realized my error and updated the .htm file.

Not only that, but by the time I'd posted, opened 9.x and seen it 
there you had already fixed it!  Talk about bad timing...  ;)

> 
>> Logo panel right end is still a problem with no CSS in both
>> Operas.

Before below, I thought you wanted feedback?  I called out that the 
"right-end" of logo was offset not only in the default view, but 
also unstyled view...and in two browsers, one of which apparently 
you are not testing there.  Not useful to know? <shrugs>

> Mark, GRC is slowly becoming a CSS-based site and, thus, a CSS-
> dependent site. I waited as long as I did before ever using any 
> CSS in order to be able to rely upon its support from our 
> visitor's browsers.  So from here on out, I am assuming that the 
> style sheet I provide will be used without modification, and 
> that visitors will be viewing our pages with a CSS-capable 
> browser.

Wow!
That is not an assumption that can be made _at_ all_ in my opinion.  
I expect you will get some strong feedback on this position.

Many users may "see" the site either without applying CSS or the 
Author's CSS.  CSS mods are "all the rage" now as users take 
control of the web on their "My Computer" for their own viewing 
preferences.  And one cannot fail to consider visually impaired 
users who _will_ drop or apply alternate CSS to suit their needs.  
To date, every test page viewed unstyled has been usable if not 
elegant and that is a baseline core requirement in my book.

> So the fact that various image "chunks" are not properly 
> positioned and assembled without CSS is not something I will

While I agree that in most cases an image positioning issue between 
CSS vs. unstyled is of little import, this is an evaluation and 
feedback point here and at that time and since the visual "defect" 
of the version 0.01 this round was affected similarly in both 
cases.  Probably indicating that it was not even a CSS issue!  
Surely this is a valid observation to post without any assumed 
criticism?  

> ever focus upon or care about.  So the fact that our pages may 
> still, to some degree, be viewable without CSS becomes an 
> interesting side effect of CSS's separation of content and 
> style.

Except that your site must be usably accessible without CSS in a 
form that visually impaired readers have "something to work with".  
IOW lack of CSS must degrade to something usable in all cases and 
never (not that it has) to plain garbage.  I imagine you will find 
this test group loudly agree that lack of CSS styling needs to 
still produce a "usable" page at all times.  

In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see Screwball's post above]
> 
> Screwball ...
> 
> Two different (but related) things are going on there.
> 
> First, Firefox and Opera leave their menus "up" upon return to a 
> page that was left via the menuing system.  It's unfortunate, 
[ ]

Or "it's a 'feature'" <G> since one's place in the menu is preserved 
until moving the mouse (O 8.54, 9.0-8501)

In grc.news.feedback Bob Trevithick wrote:

> Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
>> There's only one of me.
> 
> When making a statement like that, it would be good to provide us 
> with some sort of link or reference.  Can you point to any 
> supporting documentation of any kind to justify such a statement? 
>   Or are we to simply take your word for it?  :)

Agree, evidence is to the contrary, there simply _must_ be more than 
a single Steve Gibson unit required to accomplish so much in so 
little time!  But _our_ Steve surely wears a little lighted hexagonal 
badge bearing a "1" on it.
;-))
(there is a STTOS refenernce in here for you "youngsters" <G>)

In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see Jason Doucette's post above]
> 
>> In IE 6.0 and FF 1.5.0.3, the OpenVPN button lacks a black line
[ ... ]

>> Regarding Milly's thoughts about the whole metal thing:  I
>> didn't even notice the top was styled like this right away.
>> I just noticed the buttons were styled without the dark gray
>> at the top, and I liked it.  The current look seems fine to
>> me, as I am not used to seeing metal themes like this.
> 
> That's my feeling too.  Milly was a lot more negative about the 
> whole metallic theme idea than I am.  Whenever I look at it 
> again it just looks beautiful and precise and clean and smooth.

FWIW I understand Milly's view of the styling as "adopting a fad" 
in some sense, but did not find it so personally objectionable.  
Rather, I appreciate the look and feel and especially the enhanced 
contrast and readability of this design.

>> But, I think it may look even better with Milly's suggestions,
>> and perhaps with the buttons shaded only on the bottom, as
>> they are now.
[ ]

[for the unabridged version, see sparky's post above]

> You know I'm going to comment on the use of styles in the HTML again ;)

Of course.  I count on it.  I'm picking up a lot from you, who 
has been using CSS far longer than I have.

> I myself would pull those out and make them rules in the CSS. 
> Creating a .floatright class is something that I would do anyway
> as it's something commonly done and I would just target all other
> images in the
> 
>   .masthead class to float: left;
> 
> .masthead img {
> 	float: left;
> }
> 
> .floatright {
> 	float: right;
> }
> 
> <div class="masthead">
> 	<img src="image/mh-l.gif" width="347" height="60" alt="" />
> 	<img class="floatright" src="image/mh-r.gif" width="7" height="60" 
> alt="" />
> </div>
> 
> As you can see wrapping the images in <spans> isn't needed.


Unfortunately, none of that works, and I tried very much the 
same sorts of things right off the bat yesterday.  As written 
above, none of the browsers float the mh-r.gif all the way to 
the right.  It goes immediately to the right of the mh-l.gif 
image.

And I knew that <span>'s were not needed ... but there's a 
layout bug in IE5.5 that requires them.  Without <spans>'s 
bracketing the images, the image are not pushed all the way to 
the extremes of the page ... about five pixels of the background 
image are seen instead.

I just re-verified all this before making this posting.

But I certainly understand everything you mean about the 
stylistic aspects of what you said.  For what it's worth, we 
will probably always approach CSS with differing philosophies.  
But then, as someone who chooses to write all of his important 
code in assembly language, that's probably to be expected! <g>

Specifically, I don't have any problem with the use of simple 
inline tweaking styles embedded in the XHTML.  The standards 
allow for it, it validates just fine, and it seems counter 
productive to define a "floatright" class containing only 
"float:right;" and then putting "class="floatright" into the 
tag, versus simply putting style="float:right" into the tag 
directly.

The threshold, of course, is for the "floatright" class to have 
nothing other than a "float:right".  Anything more and a class 
starts to make sense.


> As to the look, I like it, although I do think your new logo
> does take up a large amount of space.  With a narrow window
> it doesn't leave much space to the right for your custom text box.

Oh ... my intention is for the custom text box and other 
messages to be left-aligned and REPLACE the logo whenever they 
are present.  I'm thinking that the "ruby G" will remain.  But 
CSS allows such nice reuse of real estate that I'm planning to 
leverage that.  :)

The idea is for that region above the menu to become a nice 
multi-purpose region where the server and/or menu can display 
anything it needs to.


> I think I might reduce the size of the logo text somewhat,
> making it shorter and perhaps you could put the "site map"
> and "search" buttons below it.

Well ... the plan is for them to be covered up too.  They will 
be floating right and protected from collapse, etc.  But when 
you're hovering your mouse over the menu you're not pressing the 
Site Map and Search buttons, so the two are nicely mutually 
exclusive.

I hope to get the rest of this working so that people can see 
what I'm thinking.  :)

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

In grc.news.feedback john .s. smith wrote:

> On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:46:02 -0700, Steve Gibson
> <news06_@_grc.com> wrote:
> 
>>[for the unabridged version, see john .s. smith's post above]
>>
[...]
> 
> There have been too many feedback posts for me to keep up with
> so maybe you made a change decision that I missed.
[ ]

A Date/Time Stamp (IOW "version") in the HTML might be useful when 
responding with observations by alowing the poster to reference it in 
dicussion posts.  Possibly even automate-able in Steve's existing 
tools?  Just a thought.  ;)

[for the unabridged version, see Bob Trevithick's post above]

> It looks wonderful!

Glad you think so.  :)


> There is one little quirk in the menu  system, that perhaps you
> will want to look into.

I'm sorry for the confusion Bob ... but NONE of the actual menu 
is expected to actually be functional at this point.  We have a 
LONG LONG way to go before we'll be at a point where I'm looking 
for feedback on where the links lead!  <g>

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

"Steve Gibson" <news06_@_grc.com> wrote in message 
news:MPG.1f0f1835b9bccce4c69@4.79.142.203...
>
> Yeah.  Well ... if you look closely you'll see that there's
> actually a highlighted edge there.  I was being faithful to the
> lighting model and bordering the objects' left edges with a
> highlight just as I border their right edges with a lowlight.
>
> But it clearly doesn't work in the case that there's a blank
> region to the left so I'll need to do something else.  (You'll
> note, though, that it *does* work perfectly if you squeeze the
> page width down until the OpenVPN button touches the Research
> button.  :)

Just a thought.  What if you filled in the empty space between the 
"Research" and "OpenVPN" buttons with a "blank button", shaded as all the 
buttons are.  This would allow "OpenVPN" to have a button to rest against. 
The only flaw may be improper rendering for when this "blank button" is only 
a few pixels in size.

--
Matthew Doucette / Xona.com
www.matthewdoucette.com / www.xona.com

In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see Martin Paquet's post above]
> 
>> > http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm
>> > 
>> [...]
>> 
[...]
> 
> And THEN it all needs to be moved into a dynamically code-
> generated mode that's driven by a site-wide "schema" so that the 
> menus are dynamic, the neighborhood button and menu changes, the 
> neighborhood button graphic is rendered on the fly and 
> automatically linked-in ...

Eh?  I don't think I follow that one.  "created on the fly"?  Surely 
you intend to have static image files that are "linked in" on the 
fly", right.  

In grc.news.feedback Bob Trevithick wrote:

> Steve Gibson wrote:
>> Gang,
>> 
>> Start your engines and reload your caches ...
>> 
>> http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm
>> 
[ ]
> 
> Move your mouse pointer to the "Home" button on the menu.  The 
[ ]
 
> What would you say is the predicted and/or desired behavior in 
> this case?  I would say it certainly *could* be to go to the 
> default page, since the buttom is labeled "Home".  Unfortunately 
> I can't test to see if clicking the "SpinRite" button would take 
> you to the SpinRite main page or to the default.htm page, because 
> the first item in the menu points to the default page anyway.
> 
> In any event, my own expectation would be that clicking on the 
> button would cause the drop-down menu to drop down.  Since it's 
> already down and visible, I would expect a click to do nothing in 
> this context.
[ ]

Good thinking!  I agree, and if it it easy to fit of course. <G>

[for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]

> Both Milly and I and some one else have reported this previously 
> several times.  And Milly posted screen-shots too.  At some point 
> you changed something that fixed it it Opera 9.0-8501 (but not
> 8505 IIRC) and not 8.54.  And that was mentioned too.  ("can't
> keep up" is certainly understandable)

It's just a matter of successive refinement Mark -- dealing with 
the normal operation of the Internet's primary browsers first, 
then iterating until all of the details are dealt with.

Thanks for the screen shot.  I now also have Opera 8.54 loaded 
and I'm seeing not only the weird word-wrap that you're talking 
about, but also Terry's missing right-edge border, and the 
return of the dreaded HScrollbar under v8.54.

So ... once again ... I'm on it.  :)

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Guy's post above]

> >> View > Fit to width (Ctrl + F11)
> 
> Here is what Opera 8.54 looks like when using "Fit..."
> 
> http://www.GRC.com/groups/test:30322
> 
> I can not make the menus do that "left stacking" thing.
> Probably stopped when you made menu go all the way across
> the screen.

Yes, it should have, but I'm glad for the confirmation.  :)


> And did I read sometime that...
> 
> Opera(at least 8x)* will always have Horz. scroll bar?
> 
>   *I dread working on Opera9(to learn & customize)

No ... at least I hope not.  I have v8.54 here now for the first 
time and I'm on the problem ...

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]
> 
>> Both Milly and I and some one else have reported this previously 
>> several times.  And Milly posted screen-shots too.  At some 
[ ]
> Thanks for the screen shot.  I now also have Opera 8.54 loaded 
> and I'm seeing not only the weird word-wrap that you're talking 
> about, but also Terry's missing right-edge border, and the 
> return of the dreaded HScrollbar under v8.54.
> 
> So ... once again ... I'm on it.  :)

Thanks Steve!  I am not saying that "this must be fixed" of course as 
clearly there was a rendering engine change between 8.x and 9.x as 
would be expected.  You may find it impossible or infeasible to 
correct it for Opera 8.54 in the long run or without breaking the 
vast majority of other current browsers.  
Now I know that you know that... <G>  And that's all I could ask for.  
Thanks.

[for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]

Mark,

I wrote elsewhere that I agree there needs to be a useful means 
for turning off the menu system for non-CSS browsers. And I've 
added that to my project to-do list.

As for people "restyling" the GRC site content to suit their 
taste, I have absolutely no problem with that, but in that case 
they are on their own, which I think is entirely reasonable.

Today, as I excitedly revealed this itty-bitty early sample of 
what I had been envisioning, I have inadvertently created all 
kinds of confusion because people began thinking that this was 
MUCH farther along than it is.

It's certainly the case that the GRC menuing CSS and content is 
an *extreme* example of CSS-dependence, which is why I think it 
makes sense to be able to turn it off, or provide an alternate 
non-CSS solution -- which will be possible since everything will 
ultimately be driven from a single common schema.

As for your feedback ... of *course* I want it, and need it.
I have been in a continual state of overload for the past two 
weeks, and I've had no choice other than to focus upon the 
biggest problems and successively refine that focus.

The "masthead" (as I'm calling it) -- the region above the 
menubar -- is a long way from being finished and its current 
structure will doubtless change completely before we're done.  
So please *do* remind me to look at it with CSS turned off once 
it seems to be settling down into something final!  :)

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see David Shepheard's post above]

> While you are doing this you might want to think about
> accessability for disabled users. I'm not sure what sort of
> browsers blind people use, but I think that some people who
> are partially sighted want to use alternate style sheets to
> make text bigger.

Early-on in the development of this I made the entire menuing 
system scale well with the size of the browser's text.  So we 
pretty much have that in place.

I do that that it makes sense to have an entirely different 
textual menu -- perhaps just the top-level items that will take 
users to a page of links for that section -- for non-CSS enabled 
browsers.  I've got that on my project list.

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Bob Trevithick's post above]

> Actually, when they reach the new page, they be given a menu
> which has changed slightly in the local neighborhood on the right 
> if nowhere else.

Right.

> Perhaps that in itself will constitute enough of a reload to
> prevent the problem?

Oh, the menu of the page they land on will definitely be 
"closed".  It would only be if they backtrack with their 
browser's [back] button under Firefox or Opera (IE doesn't
do this) that they will encounter the previous page *exactly*
as it was before ... including open menus.

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]

> Or "it's a 'feature'" <G> since one's place in the menu
> is preserved until moving the mouse (O 8.54, 9.0-8501)

Exactly! ... to remind you which item you last chose!  <g>

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]
> 

First thing is that I suspect you are exhausted, then perhaps 
misinterpreted (by me) and all of a sudden we are at cross-
purposes.  In that case, "never mind". <G>

> I wrote elsewhere that I agree there needs to be a useful means 
> for turning off the menu system for non-CSS browsers. And I've 
> added that to my project to-do list.

And that comes in two forms, user client options, and site-wide 
permanent-cookie option as I understand it (and when fully 
implemented.

> As for people "restyling" the GRC site content to suit their 
> taste, I have absolutely no problem with that, but in that case 
> they are on their own, which I think is entirely reasonable.

My point was only that some users may apply a "screen reader 
assist" CSS that we hope will always work for them.  That of course 
would be dependent on an author that has a slightly different 
attitude that expressed 2 posts up.  I may have simply misconstrued 
the "attitude" entirely of course.  If so, apologies are offered.

> Today, as I excitedly revealed this itty-bitty early sample of 
> what I had been envisioning, I have inadvertently created all 
> kinds of confusion because people began thinking that this was 
> MUCH farther along than it is.

It is easy for us out here to lose track entirely of the fact that 
you/we are still deep within the forest.  We do not have the same 
global map in our heads as you do. ;)  I know I have been thinking 
in terms of a modular progression where each phase or module is 
completed and locked down in isolation.  Perhaps an occasional 
"overview" posting (outline) would be useful to the evaluators?

> It's certainly the case that the GRC menuing CSS and content is 
> an *extreme* example of CSS-dependence, which is why I think it 
> makes sense to be able to turn it off, or provide an alternate 
> non-CSS solution -- [...]

Great.  My impression gathered earlier was not correct then.  

[ ]
> The "masthead" (as I'm calling it) -- the region above the 
> menubar -- is a long way from being finished and its current 
> structure will doubtless change completely before we're done.  
> So please *do* remind me to look at it with CSS turned off once 
> it seems to be settling down into something final!  :)

An ongoing "quick glance" may be more constructive and for my part 
I will keep looking at everything I can think of in my limited set 
of one browser in two versions.  I am not however versed in the 
needs and methods of the visually impaired (beyond my own vision 
issues of course).  Hopefully, evaluators do or will include users 
of alternate CSS and Screen Reader software, text-to-voice and so 
on, and that they are not waiting for project end to provide 
ongoing feedback.

[for the unabridged version, see Jason Doucette's post above]

> Yes, indeed it does!  :)  And if you added a black outline to
> the left of the OpenVPN button, you'd have a double column of
> black when the buttons touch.  (I am not sure how often this
> will ever happen, though.)

Right.  I'd call that a "degenerate case".  <g>  Perhaps I can 
use a compromise mid-tone that will look okay either way.


> After reading your response to Milly's post, I agree that this
> will look great at the top of all of your pages, and I understand
> more about what you were trying to accomplish (the idea that it
> has to fit in with the content of all of your pages).

Right.  The server will be dynamically injecting this on-the-fly 
into the outbound response stream, customizing the menu based 
upon the page that's being sent and for any other notifications 
that need to be presented. So I'm looking for a design that will 
be distinctive and good-looking either above an all-white or 
black-top page.

And, frankly, I just *love* the way the straight-top-edged 
buttons interface with the bottom of the large silver bar. It 
creates the effect that the "masthead" is standing apart from 
and above the pages beneath it ... which its integrated menu is 
calling forth.

Also, there was quite valid concern expressed that my upcoming 
"third-party cookie warning" banner might be confused for a 
bogus commercial warning of some kind.  But once the site-wide 
masthead theme has been established, anything that "integrates" 
cleanly with it, as any notifications will, will clearly be 
coming from GRC.  :)


> Great work, as always!

Thanks Jason.  You and Matthew are both doing the same ...
and all of us have plenty more in front of us!  <g>

Never a dull moment!

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

"Mark V" <notvalid@nul.invalid> wrote:
> In grc.news.feedback Bob Trevithick wrote:
>> Steve Gibson wrote:
>>> There's only one of me.
>>
>> When making a statement like that, it would be good to provide us
>> with some sort of link or reference.  Can you point to any
>> supporting documentation of any kind to justify such a statement?
>>   Or are we to simply take your word for it?  :)
>
> Agree, evidence is to the contrary, there simply _must_ be more than
> a single Steve Gibson unit required to accomplish so much in so
> little time!  But _our_ Steve surely wears a little lighted hexagonal
> badge bearing a "1" on it.
> ;-))
> (there is a STTOS refenernce in here for you "youngsters" <G>)

I wondered why a whois search told me that grc.com was owned by Harcourt 
Fenton Mudd! 

[for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]

> FWIW I understand Milly's view of the styling as "adopting a fad" 
> in some sense, but did not find it so personally objectionable.

I'll be glad to keep looking for something better -- I always 
want the best that I can achieve. But I've been thinking through 
the other design changes that would be required to make an all-
black region above the bar work, and it really doesn't.

There are a number of constraints that I have in mind which will 
prevent an all-black zone above the menubar from being workable, 
whereas what I have so far will be perfect.

I think that I need to take this concept further to show more of 
what I have in mind that still hasn't been seen in order for 
this whole thing to make sense.


> Rather, I appreciate the look and feel and especially the
> enhanced contrast and readability of this design.

I'm glad.

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Terry L. Webb's post above]

Terry ...

This is a v8.54 issue.  I have v8.54 running here now and
I'm seeing the same thing.  I'll see what I can do!  :)

(Are your menus also all botched-up, as Mark's are, when you
are in "Fit to Window Width" mode??)

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Terry L. Webb's post above]

> ... and, FWIW, I like the present look a great deal, too;
> but, as we have learned, things have a way of evolving in
> this group. :)

They do indeed!  :)

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

In Steve Gibson's grc.news - Steve Gibson wrote:

> http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm
>

OK here is something wierd:

<http://xnews-icon-patchers.bebto.com/misc/chase-the-menu.jpg>

With User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98)
   IEXPLORE file version 5.00.2614.3500

When I touch the menu with the cursor I "chase" it down the screen.

Now maybe this installation is foobar'd I don't know, its just wierd.

-- 
OpenPGP: id=18795161E22D3905; preference=signencrypt;
            url=http://guysalias.batcave.net/pgpkeys.txt

[for the unabridged version, see Bowmore's post above]

> I really like how it's all beginning to look. Very cool.

We're getting there!


> There appears to be a bit of a bug with the Research menu that is 
> causing a vertical scroll bar to appear when it's not necessary.

Yes.  This is know side-effect of the menu just being a mock-up 
on an otherwise empty page.  I'm going to put a real page 
underneath it so that we can (a) see how it looks and (b) put an 
end to this annoying VScrollbar jittering.

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

Mark V wrote:

> In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:

>>And THEN it all needs to be moved into a dynamically code-
>>generated mode that's driven by a site-wide "schema" so that the 
>>menus are dynamic, the neighborhood button and menu changes, the 
>>neighborhood button graphic is rendered on the fly and 
>>automatically linked-in ...

> Eh?  I don't think I follow that one.  "created on the fly"?  Surely 
> you intend to have static image files that are "linked in" on the 
> fly", right.  

Why make several dozen images when a single base image and a server-side
script/program to add the text is sufficient. I have several pages which
generate one or more images on the fly to suit various conditions.

-- 
____________                                                       _
,_ _  _| _  _|_   _ ,__   +-+-+-+-+-+- Go Hamster Go! -+-+-+-+-+-+  |
| | |(_|(/_(_| |o(_)|(_|  Get PGP key at http://www.mctech.org/pgp  |
mc at mctech dot org __|  The Paranoid Cynic             MicroChip _|

[for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]

> Thanks Steve!  I am not saying that "this must be fixed" of
> course as clearly there was a rendering engine change between
> 8.x and 9.x as would be expected.  You may find it impossible
> or infeasible to correct it for Opera 8.54 in the long run or
> without breaking the vast majority of other current browsers.

Right.  There are *no* clear CSS hacks that I could find for 
Opera and Firefox.  But I'll bet that I know "where to look"
for the trouble ... since it's doubtless related to the fix 
margin/padding fix that removed the HScrollbar from Firefox. :)

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

Steve Gibson wrote:

>>There is one little quirk in the menu  system, that perhaps you
>>will want to look into.
> 
> 
> I'm sorry for the confusion Bob ... but NONE of the actual menu 
> is expected to actually be functional at this point.  We have a 
> LONG LONG way to go before we'll be at a point where I'm looking 
> for feedback on where the links lead!  <g>

I think I must have described the issue poorly.  I'm not talking 
about *where* the links lead.. I understand that this is just 
mock-up code for testing.  What I was trying to point out is that 
there is, at least in my mind, some question about what should 
happen when a button itself is clicked on.

Let me try this from another angle.  In a "normal menu" <g> one 
would click on the button to see a drop-down menu appear.  In our 
case, the drop-down menu has already appeared, so the result of 
clicking on the button could be seen as "undefined" from the 
standard menu approach.  I'm simply asking if this is going to be 
counter-intuitive enough to cause users confusion.  For example, 
in most any Windows program, if you click on the "File" button, a 
menu appears.  If you then click on the "File" button again, the 
same menu appears.  Your case is different, because after the 
menu is visible, clicking on the button causes you to *go* to 
*some* page.  I didn't mean to imply that it was relevant *which* 
  page you went to, only that you went somewhere at all.

I guess my question could boil down to simply asking if the 
button is intended to be a link?

An off-the-wall thought.. but what if the menu did *not* appear 
with just a mouse-over, but rather required a click?  Could that 
be done with CSS?  (If so, perhaps it would have the side-effect 
of making keyboard navigation possible.)  As I recall, the only 
things we can count on in CSS for a link are "visited", "active", 
  "hover", and "link".

-- 
Bob Trevithick

[for the unabridged version, see Matthew Doucette's post above]

> Just a thought.  What if you filled in the empty space between
> the "Research" and "OpenVPN" buttons with a "blank button",
> shaded as all the buttons are.  This would allow "OpenVPN" to
> have a button to rest against. The only flaw may be improper
> rendering for when this "blank button" is only a few pixels in
> size.

My first thought was that it might be even more confusing to 
have a "blank button" that isn't labelled and doesn't depress.  
But perhaps if I made it also a DARKER and blank button -- much 
as I have the flat grey area now -- then it might serve to hold 
the whole "3D" theme together even more while clearly being 
"different" from the other buttons.

Also, since the "neighborhood" button has such a different 
purpose from the others I do want to keep it clearly separate.

I'll fool around with it some more.  :)

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

In grc.news.feedback MicroChip wrote:

> Mark V wrote:
> 
>> In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
>>>And THEN it all needs to be moved into a dynamically code-
>>>generated mode that's driven by a site-wide "schema" so that
>>>the menus are dynamic, the neighborhood button and menu
>>>changes, the neighborhood button graphic is rendered on the fly
>>>and automatically linked-in ...
 
>> Eh?  I don't think I follow that one.  "created on the fly"? 
>> Surely you intend to have static image files that are "linked
>> in" on the fly", right.  
> 
> Why make several dozen images when a single base image and a
> server-side script/program to add the text is sufficient. 

Speed and overhead.

> I have
> several pages which generate one or more images on the fly to
> suit various conditions. 

My homegrown "GRC News Monitor" does that to, so I am marginally 
familiar (very marginally <G>).  Does this not cause the just 
created imagefile to be download anew on each page accessed even 
when within a "neighborhood" though?  Or do you supress that in the 
headers perhaps?  

How many static neighborhood buttons are required?  Surely linking 
to one rather than creating a brand new imagefile each and every 
time must be more efficient, much more efficient I would expect.  
(I don't consider your huge excess of server CPU cycles there to 
count here for purposes of argument)

[for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]

> A Date/Time Stamp (IOW "version") in the HTML might be useful
> when responding with observations by alowing the poster to
> reference it in dicussion posts.  Possibly even automate-able
> in Steve's existing tools?  Just a thought.  ;)

<<grin>>  I can't *believe* you held off for so long on the 
issue of a "incremental version ID" for this work!  <g>  I
think I can easily embed something into the menu thanks to
all the server-side stuff I already have in place.  :)

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]

> Eh?  I don't think I follow that one.  "created on the fly"?
> Surely you intend to have static image files that are "linked
> in" on the fly", right.

I haven't let myself pursue that direction yet.  But I know that 
I don't want to have to manually create every button for every 
neighborhood.  So my plan is to write some code that will be 
able to render a perfect five-layer anti-aliased neighborhood 
button whenever the system doesn't already have one.

Thus, it won't be *continually* re-rendering the same one ... 
but any that it doesn't already have rendered it will be able
to render once, by itself, and then store on disk permanently 
for subsequent instant access.

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]
> 
[ ]
>> 8.x and 9.x as would be expected.  You may find it impossible
>> or infeasible to correct it for Opera 8.54 in the long run or
>> without breaking the vast majority of other current browsers.
> 
> Right.  There are *no* clear CSS hacks that I could find for 
> Opera and Firefox.  But I'll bet that I know "where to look"
> for the trouble ... since it's doubtless related to the fix 
> margin/padding fix that removed the HScrollbar from Firefox. :)

Was that the one that also eliminated a HScrollbar in Opera 9?  
....oh what a tangled web...  :)

[for the unabridged version, see Guy's post above]

> OK here is something wierd:
> 
> <http://xnews-icon-patchers.bebto.com/misc/chase-the-menu.jpg>
> 
> With User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98)
>    IEXPLORE file version 5.00.2614.3500
> 
> When I touch the menu with the cursor I "chase" it down the
> screen.
> 
> Now maybe this installation is foobar'd I don't know, its
> just wierd.

Oh my god... how totally bizarre!

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]

> Was that the one that also eliminated a HScrollbar in
> Opera 9? ...oh what a tangled web...  :)

Yep.  :(

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see David Shepheard's post above]

> > (there is a STTOS refenernce in here for you "youngsters" <G>)
> 
> I wondered why a whois search told me that grc.com was owned
> by Harcourt Fenton Mudd!

ROTFLOL!

"Harcourt Fenton Mudd III" if memory serves!

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]
> 
>> A Date/Time Stamp (IOW "version") in the HTML might be useful
 ]
> <<grin>>  I can't *believe* you held off for so long on the 
> issue of a "incremental version ID" for this work!  <g>  I

I know you've been busy...  ;)
I can't believe I did not mention it for 9 whole days now!  I must be 
slipping.  ;)

> think I can easily embed something into the menu thanks to
> all the server-side stuff I already have in place.  :)

I thought maybe your HTML editor suite might have the option or macro 
perhaps.  In any case, some of us will use such a unique stamp as a 
reference and possibly avoid any additional uncertainty over "last 
refreshed", "'current' or not".   Thanks and hope it will also help 
you as I would anticipate.  ;)

In grc.news.feedback MicroChip wrote:

> Mark V wrote:
> 
>> In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:
[...]

Woops!  In my previous post I wrote as if responding to _Steve_.
Please read it in that light.
Sorry MC.

[For the unexcerpted original, see above]
Steve Gibson wrote ...

> [for the unabridged version, see Terry L. Webb's post above]
> 
> Terry ...
> 
> This is a v8.54 issue.  I have v8.54 running here now and
> I'm seeing the same thing.  I'll see what I can do!  :)

Thanks! :)

> (Are your menus also all botched-up, as Mark's are, when you
> are in "Fit to Window Width" mode??)

I don't recall if Mark was Zoomed with Fit, but here's a screen capture 
of what I get at 200% with fit.

Hmmmm.  With Zoom at 100% and Fit selected the right edge looks the way 
it should and the HScroll bar disappears.  (I'll post a screen capture 
of that in a subsequent post)

-- 

Terry //

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`
end

[For the unexcerpted original, see above]
Terry L. Webb wrote ...

> Hmmmm.  With Zoom at 100% and Fit selected the right edge looks the way 
> it should and the HScroll bar disappears.  (I'll post a screen capture 
> of that in a subsequent post)

Screen capture referenced above.

-- 

Terry //

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`
end

In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]
> 
>> Eh?  I don't think I follow that one.  "created on the fly"?
>> Surely you intend to have static image files that are "linked
>> in" on the fly", right.

I responded (in error) to MC's post as if it were you.  Please read 
it that way. ( Message-ID: 
<Xns97F2D734E4F9Fz9zzaQ2btw@news.grc.com> )
My mistake!

> I haven't let myself pursue that direction yet.  But I know that 
> I don't want to have to manually create every button for every 
> neighborhood.  So my plan is to write some code that will be 
> able to render a perfect five-layer anti-aliased neighborhood 
> button whenever the system doesn't already have one.

I see.  Sounds good and I have really messed up this sub-thread.

> Thus, it won't be *continually* re-rendering the same one ... 
> but any that it doesn't already have rendered it will be able
> to render once, by itself, and then store on disk permanently 
> for subsequent instant access.

Whew!  Glad that is now clear.  I understand where it makes sense 
to re-create images continuously based on changing data. (Thanks 
MC) and where I see you now script a single image creation based on 
need and "first encountered" condition.  Also very sharp and 
"cool" too!

Extricating foot from mouth and exiting stage right...

On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 21:27:34 -0400, Mark V <notvalid@nul.invalid>
wrote:

>I thought maybe your HTML editor suite might have the option or macro 
>perhaps.  In any case, some of us will use such a unique stamp as a 
>reference and possibly avoid any additional uncertainty over "last 
>refreshed", "'current' or not".   Thanks and hope it will also help 
>you as I would anticipate.  ;)

Should we start a new thread to discuss which font to use, what color
and where to place the version #? <BFG>

-- 
js

[for the unabridged version, see Bob Trevithick's post above]

Ah ... I see what you mean.

I think that the auto-open-on-hover is probably the better way 
to operate since it makes the system immediately obvious to 
everyone.  Also, since the system has no "memory", if the user 
clicked the top-level menu to open it, it would also immediately 
close when they released the mouse button.

As for whether the top-level items themselves should be links 
.... it *has* been my plan that they would be.  The "Home" button 
would take the user to our home page, the "SpinRite" button to 
the main SpinRite page, and the "Services" button would take 
users to a new "Services" page where all of the services were 
explained in detail.  The "Freeware" top-level button would take 
users to the "FreeStuff" page, which I'll probably rename 
"Freeware" for consistency.  The "Research" button would lead to 
a new "Research" page which described all of GRC's "research" in 
one page.

So ... yes ... while I could easily suppress the "linkness" of 
the top level, I think they should be links ... and we'll have 
some new pages to be directories.

Also ... in non-CSS browsers, or any case where people want to 
disable the menu system for whatever reason, we would still have 
top-level links taking people to second level PAGES where all 
the resources on the second-level menus could be found.  :)

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]

> Thanks and hope it will also help you as I would anticipate.  ;)

It certainly has in the past!

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

> Right.  The server will be dynamically injecting this on-the-fly
> into the outbound response stream, customizing the menu based
> upon the page that's being sent and for any other notifications
> that need to be presented. So I'm looking for a design that will
> be distinctive and good-looking either above an all-white or
> black-top page.
>
> And, frankly, I just *love* the way the straight-top-edged
> buttons interface with the bottom of the large silver bar. It
> creates the effect that the "masthead" is standing apart from
> and above the pages beneath it ... which its integrated menu is
> calling forth.
>
> Also, there was quite valid concern expressed that my upcoming
> "third-party cookie warning" banner might be confused for a
> bogus commercial warning of some kind.  But once the site-wide
> masthead theme has been established, anything that "integrates"
> cleanly with it, as any notifications will, will clearly be
> coming from GRC.  :)

I follow everything you've said.  And with *all that* to consider when 
designing this 'masthead', I think you've nailed it.  Perhaps there's a 
little tweaking left in terms of what to do with the empty space, as Matthew 
suggested, but you've really nailed the solution that solves all of the 
major issues.  And, with the GRC logo and company name at the top-left 
corner, with a few words giving immediate information to those wondering 
what the site is all about -- I think it's a very professional design!

And I agree that the top edge of the buttons look great, and mesh well into 
the rest of the bar, just as you want.


>> Great work, as always!
>
> Thanks Jason.  You and Matthew are both doing the same ...
> and all of us have plenty more in front of us!  <g>

Thanks Steve!!  :)


-- 

Jason Doucette / Xona.com
www.jasondoucette.com / www.xona.com

[for the unabridged version, see john .s. smith's post above]

> Should we start a new thread to discuss which font to use,
> what color and where to place the version #? <BFG>

Oh *please* no!!!  <vbg>

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Terry L. Webb's post above]

Yep ... that's the menu-wrap.

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

In grc.news.feedback Terry L. Webb wrote:

> [For the unexcerpted original, see above]
> Steve Gibson wrote ...
> 
>> [for the unabridged version, see Terry L. Webb's post above]
>> 
>> Terry ...
>> 
>> This is a v8.54 issue.  I have v8.54 running here now and
>> I'm seeing the same thing.  I'll see what I can do!  :)
> 
> Thanks! :)
> 
>> (Are your menus also all botched-up, as Mark's are, when you
>> are in "Fit to Window Width" mode??)
> 
> I don't recall if Mark was Zoomed with Fit, but here's a screen
> capture of what I get at 200% with fit.

100%  (to keep it simple)
My last image
 http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1552/grc630017dw.png
from
X-Url: http://www.GRC.com/groups/news.feedback:64934
 
> Hmmmm.  With Zoom at 100% and Fit selected the right edge looks
> the way it should and the HScroll bar disappears.  (I'll post a
> screen capture of that in a subsequent post)

Have you considered that www.imageshack.us (or other web site) 
might be easier?  Not faster though.

"Mark V" <notvalid@nul.invalid> wrote:
> In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:
>
>> [for the unabridged version, see Martin Paquet's post above]
>>
>>> > http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm
>>> >
>>
>> And THEN it all needs to be moved into a dynamically code-
>> generated mode that's driven by a site-wide "schema" so that the
>> menus are dynamic, the neighborhood button and menu changes, the
>> neighborhood button graphic is rendered on the fly and
>> automatically linked-in ...
>
> Eh?  I don't think I follow that one.  "created on the fly"?  Surely
> you intend to have static image files that are "linked in" on the
> fly", right.

What do you mean by "static image files"? I just looked at the HTML and the 
menu item names are all in text.
-- 
David Shepheard
(please reply in list as email address is fake) 

"Steve Gibson" <news06_@_grc.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1f0f54052ad4632dc76@4.79.142.203...
> [for the unabridged version, see sparky's post above]
>> I myself would pull those out and make them rules in the CSS.
>> Creating a .floatright class is something that I would do anyway
>> as it's something commonly done and I would just target all other
>> images in the
>> <snip>
>> .floatright {
>> float: right;
>> }
>
> Specifically, I don't have any problem with the use of simple
> inline tweaking styles embedded in the XHTML.  The standards
> allow for it, it validates just fine, and it seems counter
> productive to define a "floatright" class containing only
> "float:right;" and then putting "class="floatright" into the
> tag, versus simply putting style="float:right" into the tag
> directly.
>
> The threshold, of course, is for the "floatright" class to have
> nothing other than a "float:right".  Anything more and a class
> starts to make sense.

I've got to agree with you (Steve) on this. The point of Cascading Style
Sheets is to allow a cascade. Styles can be in a separate style sheet file,
the header section of an HTML file *and* the style attribute of a tag.
Notice that I say *and* not *or*. If you are only making the one image float
right, it is valid to do it in a style attribute.

The only reason I can think to put this in the CSS file is that you might
want to create a number of different style sheets, detect the users browser
and give them a CSS file designed to work best with their browser. You might
also find that while most browsers work with just the floatright, other
browsers need additional tweaks to this specific image. Additionally using a
CSS floatright class only makes your CSS file 27 bytes bigger (not counting
carriage returns). Using a the class instead of the inline style saves you 1
byte per page. (A one byte saving per HTML document! Woot!) The saving isn't
really worth it for this one image, but if you were to repeat something
similar on your page, then it might be an advantage to create a one trick
CSS class.

I also think that a style shouldn't ever be called "floatright" as it would
become meaningless if, for some reason, you wanted to change its alignment
property. Something like "lastmenuitem" might be a better name for this sort
of style. That way if you decided to add something down the right side of
the screen, you could change the properties of "lastmenuitem" in the CSS
file and the name in the HTML would not be confusing.
-- 
David Shepheard
(please reply in list as email address is fake)

[For the unexcerpted original, see above]
Mark V wrote ...

> In grc.news.feedback Terry L. Webb wrote:
> 
> > [...]
> > I don't recall if Mark was Zoomed with Fit, but here's a screen
> > capture of what I get at 200% with fit.
> 
> 100%  (to keep it simple)
> My last image
>  http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1552/grc630017dw.png
> from
> X-Url: http://www.GRC.com/groups/news.feedback:64934

That's a mess!  I somehow missed that post. :(

> > Hmmmm.  With Zoom at 100% and Fit selected the right edge looks
> > the way it should and the HScroll bar disappears.  (I'll post a
> > screen capture of that in a subsequent post)
> 
> Have you considered that www.imageshack.us (or other web site) 
> might be easier?  Not faster though.

If I have to keep posting images here I'll certainly consider it. :)

-- 

Terry //

In grc.news.feedback David Shepheard wrote:

> "Mark V" <notvalid@nul.invalid> wrote:
>> In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:
>>
>>> [for the unabridged version, see Martin Paquet's post above]
>>>
>>>> > http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm
>>>> >
 
>>> And THEN it all needs to be moved into a dynamically code-
>>> generated mode that's driven by a site-wide "schema" so that
>>> the menus are dynamic, the neighborhood button and menu
>>> changes, the neighborhood button graphic is rendered on the
>>> fly and automatically linked-in ...
 
>> Eh?  I don't think I follow that one.  "created on the fly"? 
>> Surely you intend to have static image files that are "linked
>> in" on the fly", right.
> 
> What do you mean by "static image files"? I just looked at the
> HTML and the menu item names are all in text.

Oh what confusion I've wrought!  
I misinterpreted the meaning and scope of Steve's statement, then 
mangled it all further with a post to the wrong response... <sigh>

Some use a scheme to dynamically update and create an imagefile to 
reflect changing data, like a realtime graph.  I _erroneously_ 
thought Steve was doing that "all the time" for the "neighborhood" 
button's image file.  I was wrong.  :)

As I understand it now, SG will have server script code running 
(dynamic creation of location-sensitive menus) that will creatively 
also account for a "new neighborhhod" existing on site, "create" a 
new "static imagefile" based on the neighborhood's name and then 
store it "permanently" for future use.

"Jason Doucette" <spam@jasondoucette.com> wrote in message 
news:e84jrc$1rmf$1@news.grc.com...
> I follow everything you've said.  And with *all that* to consider when
> designing this 'masthead', I think you've nailed it.  Perhaps there's a
> little tweaking left in terms of what to do with the empty space, as 
> Matthew
> suggested, but you've really nailed the solution that solves all of the
> major issues.  And, with the GRC logo and company name at the top-left
> corner, with a few words giving immediate information to those wondering
> what the site is all about -- I think it's a very professional design!

As someone who only recently surfed onto your website I must admit I got a 
little lost for a while. Some of your existing pages also have a different 
feel to them, as if they are parts of different websites.

Your new masthead-menu design will make it much easier to navigate than 
before. Better than that it feels easier to navigate than before so a newbie 
is much less likely to say "Agggh!" and run away.

Even if you have to leave the links at the top for non-css browsers or 
text-browsers I'm sure you can put a inline link (with style="hidden" to let 
you disable it) at the top of the page that jumps past the menu links down 
to the main content.

You could either resize and incorporate logos like Shields Up into the 
masthead or move them beneath the masthead/menu to create a universal 
corporate style to your entire website.

I think that at some point you should add some fake content to the test page 
( http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm ) so that people can see how it would work 
in conjunction with some of your existing text and images.

I'm a little concerned that your existing pages sometimes have a black area 
at the top ( http://www.grc.com/default.htm ) and sometimes have a white 
area at the top ( https://www.grc.com/x/ne.dll?bh0bkyd2 ). I'm sure you have 
a reason for the two different styles but I couldn't see it. Unless this 
colour difference is supposed to signify something (like all tools have 
mastheads that are a different colour to infomation only pages) I think it 
might be worth using the same colour for all pages and using something in or 
under the masthead/menu bar as a cue that shows you where you are.

How about adding a clickable breadcrumb trail under the menu bar? That would 
add navigation as well as help people remember where something was.

A breadcrumb trail could also help you to divert page rank from all your 
"less important" pages onto your homepage and *also* divert a lesser amount 
of page rank from your sub-menu pages onto the pages above them. So a 
breadcrumb trail reading:

Home > Research > Pending > LanSlide

Would donate an equal amount of page rank to the "Home", "Research" and 
"Pending" pages. And because only 5 pages spin off from the "Pending" 
section it would get much less page rank donated to it than your "Research" 
page (25 spin off pages or 5 times the page rank donation) or your main 
"Home" page (I can't be bothered to count how many pages spin off from this, 
but I'm sure you get the point). This should allow you to push your most 
important pages up the listings of the search engines. Bearing in mind that 
the bottom level pages are usually going to be found by people who know and 
search for the exact names of things (like "ShieldsUp") I don't think it 
matters if their page rank drops lower than your main pages. (Note that the 
new main GRC menu *probably* doesn't help page rank donation as all pages 
will *probably* have exactly the same links on every page and your homepage 
will therefore give away as much as it recieves.)

Excuse me if you already know about donating page rank to improve SEO, but I 
didn't notice the original plan and I wasn't sure what was going under the 
masthead/menu.
-- 
David Shepheard
(please reply in list as email address is fake)

Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see Matthew Doucette's post above]
> 
> 
>>Just a thought.  What if you filled in the empty space between
>>the "Research" and "OpenVPN" buttons with a "blank button",
>>shaded as all the buttons are.  This would allow "OpenVPN" to
>>have a button to rest against. The only flaw may be improper
>>rendering for when this "blank button" is only a few pixels in
>>size.
> 
> 
> My first thought was that it might be even more confusing to 
> have a "blank button" that isn't labelled and doesn't depress.  
> But perhaps if I made it also a DARKER and blank button -- much 
> as I have the flat grey area now -- then it might serve to hold 
> the whole "3D" theme together even more while clearly being 
> "different" from the other buttons.

Thats basicly what I was suggesting eariler, except I was proposing to
extend the [look of] the background of the area above down into the
'empty space' resulting in the look of the edge of a metal serface, with
buttons inset into two corners of it.

My understanding of your response was that you still had other plans for
that space. Wouldnt putting this 'darker button' there interfere with
those plans in the same manner ??

-- 
____________                                                       _
,_ _  _| _  _|_   _ ,__   +-+-+-+-+-+- Go Hamster Go! -+-+-+-+-+-+  |
| | |(_|(/_(_| |o(_)|(_|  Get PGP key at http://www.mctech.org/pgp  |
mc at mctech dot org __|  The Paranoid Cynic             MicroChip _|

"Mark V" <notvalid@nul.invalid> wrote:
> In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:
>
>> [for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]
>> think I can easily embed something into the menu thanks to
>> all the server-side stuff I already have in place.  :)
>
> I thought maybe your HTML editor suite might have the option or macro
> perhaps.  In any case, some of us will use such a unique stamp as a
> reference and possibly avoid any additional uncertainty over "last
> refreshed", "'current' or not".   Thanks and hope it will also help
> you as I would anticipate.  ;)

Hmmmm? Well you *could* spend time developing some fancy "date stamping" 
code so that people writing in this thread can view the HTML sorce and copy 
and paste the menu the version number...

....or...

....if you only need to have version numbers for developing this *one* 
menu...

....you could stick one line of body text under the menu that says somthing 
like: "<p>This is version 0.3.16 of the GRC Menu. Please mention the version 
number when making suggestions in the newsgroup.</p>" and simply manually 
update the line everytime you edit the menu.

Maybe I'm missing something.
-- 
David Shepheard
(please reply in list as email address is fake) 

Mark V wrote:

> In grc.news.feedback MicroChip wrote:

>>Why make several dozen images when a single base image and a
>>server-side script/program to add the text is sufficient. 
> 
> 
> Speed and overhead.
> 

Ive never found those to be an issue. But ive found it painful to manage
a series of images images the need for which changes frequently, aka no
longer needing some, needing to make new ones, etc. Or needing to re
generate all of them to change the style. When the style can be changed
just by changing the single base file, and the content of the button can
be whatever is needed at the time.

>>I have
>>several pages which generate one or more images on the fly to
>>suit various conditions. 
> 
> 
> My homegrown "GRC News Monitor" does that to, so I am marginally 
> familiar (very marginally <G>).  Does this not cause the just 
> created imagefile to be download anew on each page accessed even 
> when within a "neighborhood" though?  Or do you supress that in the 
> headers perhaps?  

I expect that referencing the script and thus regenerating the file
would cause a complete new download, yes. But when the images are small,
like buttons, the time is trivial, usually even on dialup.

> How many static neighborhood buttons are required?  Surely linking 
> to one rather than creating a brand new imagefile each and every 
> time must be more efficient, much more efficient I would expect.  
> (I don't consider your huge excess of server CPU cycles there to 
> count here for purposes of argument)

Id rather have dynamicly generated buttons, then have to regenerate a
couple dozen of them if I change the style, or having to constantly
generate new ones to handle new menu areas. But in the case at hand, it
depends on exactly what/how Steve plans to use that particular menu, and
how many different texts might be occuring there.

-- 
____________                                                       _
,_ _  _| _  _|_   _ ,__   +-+-+-+-+-+- Go Hamster Go! -+-+-+-+-+-+  |
| | |(_|(/_(_| |o(_)|(_|  Get PGP key at http://www.mctech.org/pgp  |
mc at mctech dot org __|  The Paranoid Cynic             MicroChip _|

Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]
> 
> 
>>Eh?  I don't think I follow that one.  "created on the fly"?
>>Surely you intend to have static image files that are "linked
>>in" on the fly", right.
> 
> 
> I haven't let myself pursue that direction yet.  But I know that 
> I don't want to have to manually create every button for every 
> neighborhood.  So my plan is to write some code that will be 
> able to render a perfect five-layer anti-aliased neighborhood 
> button whenever the system doesn't already have one.
> 
> Thus, it won't be *continually* re-rendering the same one ... 
> but any that it doesn't already have rendered it will be able
> to render once, by itself, and then store on disk permanently 
> for subsequent instant access.

There Mark. A perfect compromise to our discussion elsewhere in this
thread. I like that.

-- 
____________                                                       _
,_ _  _| _  _|_   _ ,__   +-+-+-+-+-+- Go Hamster Go! -+-+-+-+-+-+  |
| | |(_|(/_(_| |o(_)|(_|  Get PGP key at http://www.mctech.org/pgp  |
mc at mctech dot org __|  The Paranoid Cynic             MicroChip _|

[for the unabridged version, see Terry L. Webb's post above]

Menu updated for Opera v8.54:

Mark and Terry ...

Well, I have some good news and some bad news.

The good news is that the newly updated grcmenu successfully 
removes the annoyingly persistent HScrollbar from the bottom
of the page for all Operas.  I did that by -- bizarrely -- by 
moving the little black right-border line from being sourced by 
the enclosing structure to just the right-hand menu system.
It worked ... go figure.  :)

The bad news is that I am unable to do anything about the really 
odd rendering behavior of the GRC menu system and Opera v8.54 
when it's in its "Fit to Window Width" mode.

What's happening is that -- completely independent of ANY 
control that I have, which is apparently part of its window 
width fitting logic, Opera is wrapping the items BELOW the top-
level buttons to the *same*width* as those top-level button 
images!  So although I'm calling for a much wider menu, and 
Opera is displaying it too ... it is forcing the menu item 
content to be forcibly wrapped into the width of the button 
above.  That's totally bizarre.

Also ... check out Stu's drop-down menuing examples here, in 
Opera's v8.54 Fit to Window Width mode, all of his examples that 
involve menus reaching over to others on the right are badly 
broken by Opera:

http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menus/drop_examples.html

And many of Stu's others menuing pages are similarly damaged.

I'm sure glad that v9 fixed this, and that it only afflicts 
people under v8.54 in FTWW mode ... since it's very clearly a 
serious and bizarre Opera bug that no page has any control over.

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

"Mark V" <notvalid@nul.invalid> wrote:
> 100%  (to keep it simple)
> My last image
> http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1552/grc630017dw.png
> from
> X-Url: http://www.GRC.com/groups/news.feedback:64934

Hmmm? I'm not sure if I like the big black bits to the right of the menus.

They will cover over the existing page content and don't seem to add any 
advantage over the standard version here ( http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm ). 
If they are there for a reason, like creating the illusion of shadow, then I 
think that small black "shadows" (that are similar in width to the shadow at 
the top of the menu buttons) would probably look a *lot* better.

I especially dislike the way that the links like "Intro and background" are 
forced onto two lines. This will almost certainly make some people viewing 
the menu think that the one link is two options. Menus in most computer apps 
are usually kept to one line and it would be best to stick to that format 
unless absolutely necessary.

I'm a bit baffled as to why there were two black lines in the Home menu. I'm 
not sure if these were list separators that got a bit too big for their 
boots, or if they were options that were supposed to be unavailable.

If it was the former then I think that separators should either be a blank 
line or better still a thinner black line matching the top shadow on the 
menu buttons.

If it was the latter then I think that unavailable options should be 
signified by creating a ".unavailable" class to use around the text and then 
applying a style that uses top and bottom shading to make it look like 
engraved blank text (or greyed out text). This would allow you to add coming 
soon features to the menu or use the menu to show that a certain feature 
doesn't work with a visitors existing browser or O/S.
-- 
David Shepheard
(please reply in list as email address is fake) 

[For the unexcerpted original, see above]
Steve Gibson wrote ...

> Well, I have some good news and some bad news.
> 
> The good news is that the newly updated grcmenu successfully 
> removes the annoyingly persistent HScrollbar from the bottom
> of the page for all Operas.  I did that by -- bizarrely -- by 
> moving the little black right-border line from being sourced by 
> the enclosing structure to just the right-hand menu system.
> It worked ... go figure.  :)

It looks great here, thanks. :)

> The bad news is that I am unable to do anything about the really 
> odd rendering behavior of the GRC menu system and Opera v8.54 
> when it's in its "Fit to Window Width" mode.
> 
> What's happening is that -- completely independent of ANY 
> control that I have, which is apparently part of its window 
> width fitting logic, Opera is wrapping the items BELOW the top-
> level buttons to the *same*width* as those top-level button 
> images!  So although I'm calling for a much wider menu, and 
> Opera is displaying it too ... it is forcing the menu item 
> content to be forcibly wrapped into the width of the button 
> above.  That's totally bizarre.

I think that explains why the two "skinny" (Freeware and Research) menus 
work.

Personally I rarely use the feature, but it is really useful in some 
situations.  ... and there's always Opera 9 for those who need it.

-- 

Terry //

"Steve Gibson" <news06_@_grc.com> wrote in message 
news:MPG.1f0f72ecd42a54d3c8f@4.79.142.203...
> [for the unabridged version, see Terry L. Webb's post above]
>
> Yep ... that's the menu-wrap.

The Open VPN button is too small in the capture 5 picture. It looks *really* 
odd and spoils the line of the menu. Even with the menu wrap on a small 
screen it should be consistant with the rest of the buttons.
-- 
David Shepheard
(please reply in list as email address is fake) 

"Bob Trevithick" <rft@qmail.invalid> wrote in message 
news:e84hj2$1pkq$1@news.grc.com...
> Steve Gibson wrote:
> I think I must have described the issue poorly.  I'm not talking about 
> *where* the links lead.. I understand that this is just mock-up code for 
> testing.  What I was trying to point out is that there is, at least in my 
> mind, some question about what should happen when a button itself is 
> clicked on.
>
> Let me try this from another angle.  In a "normal menu" <g> one would 
> click on the button to see a drop-down menu appear.

Isn't that a "normal *Microsoft Windows* menu"? I think that other operating 
systems do different things with clicks and mouse over events. Some don't 
even seem to bother with a right mouse button.

Don't forget that Windows is *not* the standard of the Internet or the www. 
Most of the standards are based on other operating systems like Unix. URL 
slashes are the opposite way to DOS file structure slashes. HTML uses two 
clicks and microsoft uses the double click. I think that Windows users 
rapidly get used to the fact that the net is different to their own PC.

> In our case, the drop-down menu has already appeared, so the result of 
> clicking on the button could be seen as "undefined" from the standard menu 
> approach.  I'm simply asking if this is going to be counter-intuitive 
> enough to cause users confusion. For example, in most any Windows program, 
> if you click on the "File" button, a menu appears.  If you then click on 
> the "File" button again, the same menu appears.

I think that it could cause *some* slight confusion if the menu appears 
automatically, but it could also cause *more* confusion if the menu is 
changed into "Microsoft compatibility mode". Look at say the File menu of 
any app and you will see that File isn't on the drop down menu itself. That 
means that Steve would have to move something like "Home" down into the 
clickable region. What is going to replace it as a menu heading? Two Home 
buttons (one above the other) would not look good. You would have to have a 
menu title that was different to home ("Main" perhaps).

You would also have to butcher any of the buttons that have two greater than 
symbols ">>" on the ends as these are not clickable in standard Microsoft 
Windows menus. Again that means that Steve would have to radically rethink 
how these would work.

I seemed to work out how the menus worked fairly quickly. Although, I do 
think that it would be good if Steve did a quick copy and paste job and 
uploaded 5 or 10 test pages that all had the menu and borrowed existing 
content on them. That way we could troubleshoot one entire verticle menu 
(and any submenus) to see if we could understand what Steve was trying to 
do.

Your case is different, because after the
> menu is visible, clicking on the button causes you to *go* to *some* page. 
> I didn't mean to imply that it was relevant *which* page you went to, only 
> that you went somewhere at all.
>
> I guess my question could boil down to simply asking if the button is 
> intended to be a link?
>
> An off-the-wall thought.. but what if the menu did *not* appear with just 
> a mouse-over, but rather required a click?  Could that be done with CSS? 
> (If so, perhaps it would have the side-effect of making keyboard 
> navigation possible.)  As I recall, the only things we can count on in CSS 
> for a link are "visited", "active", "hover", and "link".

You are onto something here. I tried using the tab key and it depresses the 
menu buttons but doesn't make the menus themselves drop down. That means it 
is currently useless without a mouse.

I *think* there is also a JavaScript event handler for capturing key presses 
(onKeyDown), so that you could allow people to type "Alt+F" to drop down the 
"Freeware" menu, then type "S" for "Security" and "L" for "Leaktest". You 
could also let them type "Ctrl+L" to jump straight to "Leaktest" if this 
event handler lets you. However, I think you would need to write a complete 
JavaScript program that runs from the body tag, is called from the onKeyDown 
event handler, checks what has just been pressed and remembers the previous 
key presses.

(Handling keyboard events would require a fairly complex JavaScript that 
memorised a few keyboard clicks, compaired the last click against a number 
of options and then used the DOM to jump to a new URL. You would have to 
rejig the menus to look more like Windows menus to help people benifit from 
it and if any visitor turned off JavaScript half the menu would be turned 
off. I think you are better off keeping the menu mostly Windows 
"unfriendly". However I *do* think you should change to Bob's proposed 
"click to open a menu/submenu" system as it will let people navigate by 
"tab" and "enter".
-- 
David Shepheard
(please reply in list as email address is fake)

[for the unabridged version, see MicroChip's post above]

> Thats basicly what I was suggesting eariler, except I was
> proposing to extend the [look of] the background of the area
> above down into the 'empty space' resulting in the look of
> the edge of a metal serface, with buttons inset into two
> corners of it.

<<grin>>  Somehow I missed that idea MC.  But, as you'll know
if you've seen the latest ... I got there in a round-about
way anyway!

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Terry L. Webb's post above]

> It looks great here, thanks. :)

Yay!  And thank YOU!


> I think that explains why the two "skinny" (Freeware and
> Research) menus work.

Ah, exactly ... because they fit entirely underneath the button 
images above.

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

"MicroChip" <reply.to.newsgroup@mctech.org> wrote:
> Mark V wrote:
>> In grc.news.feedback MicroChip wrote:
>>>Why make several dozen images when a single base image and a
>>>server-side script/program to add the text is sufficient.
>>
>>
>> Speed and overhead.
>>
>
> Ive never found those to be an issue. But ive found it painful to manage
> a series of images images the need for which changes frequently, aka no
> longer needing some, needing to make new ones, etc. Or needing to re
> generate all of them to change the style. When the style can be changed
> just by changing the single base file, and the content of the button can
> be whatever is needed at the time.

Apart from the fact that I've already said on a separate "spur" of this 
thread that the menu *is* using text, I don't see how images would provide a 
speed advantage over menu text. An image is going to require alt text to be 
added to it to be accesable so you are going to have to have the same amount 
of text *and* the image as well.

As for overhead, I'm not sure where the overhead would be. Would you be 
creating an SQL database of server created images or something? That sounds 
bafflingly complex. What happens when you drop things from the menus and add 
new things? You would need to hack your own database to remove the images 
that were no longer needed.

>>>I have
>>>several pages which generate one or more images on the fly to
>>>suit various conditions.
>>
>> My homegrown "GRC News Monitor" does that to, so I am marginally
>> familiar (very marginally <G>).  Does this not cause the just
>> created imagefile to be download anew on each page accessed even
>> when within a "neighborhood" though?  Or do you supress that in the
>> headers perhaps?

No offence intended, as you seem to be more technically skilled in this area 
than me, but why generate images for your GRC News Monitor when text links 
do the job a lot easier. I say "easier" because I know that *I* could 
probably hack Steve's menu and add new items or alter the links. However I 
wouldn't have a clue where to start with your idea.

Steve should stick with his idea because if I can hack his code, them people 
of a similar level to me (i.e. not graphics gurus) can help him debug any 
HTML errors.

> I expect that referencing the script and thus regenerating the file
> would cause a complete new download, yes. But when the images are small,
> like buttons, the time is trivial, usually even on dialup.

And when images are *not* images the buttons download even quicker. ;-)

That is why my *own* website has *no* menu images at all. Mind you my menus 
are not *half* as pretty as Steve's new menu is.
-- 
David Shepheard
(please reply in list as email address is fake) 

On Friday, 30 June 2006 16:09, in newsgroup grc.news.feedback, Steve Gibson
wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see Martin Paquet's post above]
> 
[...]
>> Very very nice.  I have to say that I really can't see what's
>> left to add.  But then again, what do I know.  In any case, to
>> my totally uneducated eyes, it's number 1.
> 
> I think so too Martin.  I really love it.  But there's a LOT
> left to add!  I need to explore other looks before I settle upon
> this one and make a deeper investment.
> 
> And once that's done we need to have the Site Map and Search
> fields added ... and the tracking pop-up menu help that I'm
> wanting to experiment with.  :)
> 
> And THEN it all needs to be moved into a dynamically code-
> generated mode that's driven by a site-wide "schema" so that the
> menus are dynamic, the neighborhood button and menu changes, the
> neighborhood button graphic is rendered on the fly and
> automatically linked-in ...
> 
> ... and finally ... the whole thing is dynamically inserted at
> the top of all GRC pages.
> 
> So ... there's still a little bit to go.  :)

As I said, what do I know...  <G>

MP


 

Terry L. Webb wrote:
> begin 755 Capture-5.gif
> M1TE&.#EA(`,8`8(``0```"0D)$A(2&UM;9&1D;:VMMK:VO___RP`````(`,8
> M`0(#_ABZW/XPRDFKO3CKS;O_8"B.9&F>:*JN;.N^<"S/=&W?>*[O?.__P*`P
> M)A`,C\BD<LEL.I^/(@1`K5JOV*QVR^UZO^"PF$LP2HIFJ'K-;KO?MK%\CAW8
> M[_@\H#RE^_^`@8)D:1`"!@.%<(N,C8Z/<(.267F5>'N*"Y.;G)V3?&<&!@69

Terry, I don't know if this will post correctly.. but all I see 
from the images you've been posting is a lengthy sections of 
random gibberish characters.  Thunderbird 1.0.8 under Ubuntu 
5.10.  I can see other folk's pictures okay, it's only yours that 
trip up TB here.  Any suggestions of what I might have set wrong?

Thanks!

-- 
Bob Trevithick

"MicroChip" <reply.to.newsgroup@mctech.org> wrote:
> Steve Gibson wrote:
>>>Just a thought.  What if you filled in the empty space between
>>>the "Research" and "OpenVPN" buttons with a "blank button",
>>>shaded as all the buttons are.  This would allow "OpenVPN" to
>>>have a button to rest against. The only flaw may be improper
>>>rendering for when this "blank button" is only a few pixels in
>>>size.
>>
>> My first thought was that it might be even more confusing to
>> have a "blank button" that isn't labelled and doesn't depress.
>> But perhaps if I made it also a DARKER and blank button -- much
>> as I have the flat grey area now -- then it might serve to hold
>> the whole "3D" theme together even more while clearly being
>> "different" from the other buttons.
>
> Thats basicly what I was suggesting eariler, except I was proposing to
> extend the [look of] the background of the area above down into the
> 'empty space' resulting in the look of the edge of a metal serface, with
> buttons inset into two corners of it.

I finally get what you two are talking about. I think it would be better to 
"cut" the bottom shadow on the "Gibson Research Corporation" image and paste 
it onto the top of the button images. That way the space between the 
Research and Open VPN button could be a blank area styled the same as the 
buttons, but with no line between it and the top.

I think that was what MicroChip was suggesting and I think it would look 
much better because it would create a panel that doesn't have a button or a 
gap in it. If you could somehow use CSS layering to put this image behind 
the menu (I think that float does something like this) then the two menu 
items can meet each other and hide this bit.

Maybe the top section can extend all the way to the bottom of the menus and 
the menus can all be on a layer placed above the bottom of the image. I 
don't really use layers and (I think it is called something like Z 
positioning) but I'm pretty sure that this is possible. I believe you put 
the relevant areas in <div> tags and use float and something to do with "z" 
in the CSS file (the "z" is as in x, y and z coordinates and makes things 
move towards or away from the viewer).

Have a look for some tutorials, if there isn't someone here who already 
knows how to do this, as it might make it a lot easer for you to deal with 
empty space between buttons. You might also be able to use z-layers to put 
logos like the ShieldsUp logo on *top* of the masthead instead of having to 
create several hybrid images for the top of the page. Obviously hybrid 
images are going to force you to recreate a dozen or so images any time you 
change styles, but if you can figure out how to pop one picture like a 
transparant gif on top of a menu background you can easily replace either 
image without having to change the other one.
-- 
David Shepheard
(please reply in list as email address is fake) 

"Bob Trevithick" <rft@qmail.invalid> wrote in message 
news:e851rf$28jk$1@news.grc.com...
> Terry L. Webb wrote:
>> begin 755 Capture-5.gif
>> M1TE&.#EA(`,8`8(``0```"0D)$A(2&UM;9&1D;:VMMK:VO___RP`````(`,8
>> M`0(#_ABZW/XPRDFKO3CKS;O_8"B.9&F>:*JN;.N^<"S/=&W?>*[O?.__P*`P
>> M)A`,C\BD<LEL.I^/(@1`K5JOV*QVR^UZO^"PF$LP2HIFJ'K-;KO?MK%\CAW8
>> M[_@\H#RE^_^`@8)D:1`"!@.%<(N,C8Z/<(.267F5>'N*"Y.;G)V3?&<&!@69
>
> Terry, I don't know if this will post correctly.. but all I see from the 
> images you've been posting is a lengthy sections of random gibberish 
> characters.  Thunderbird 1.0.8 under Ubuntu 5.10.  I can see other folk's 
> pictures okay, it's only yours that trip up TB here.  Any suggestions of 
> what I might have set wrong?

I can't see half of his images. I think the problem is at his end.
-- 
David Shepheard
(please reply in list as email address is fake) 

[For the unexcerpted original, see above]
Bob Trevithick wrote ...

> Terry L. Webb wrote:
> > begin 755 Capture-5.gif
> > M1TE&.#EA(`,8`8(``0```"0D)$A(2&UM;9&1D;:VMMK:VO___RP`````(`,8
> > M`0(#_ABZW/XPRDFKO3CKS;O_8"B.9&F>:*JN;.N^<"S/=&W?>*[O?.__P*`P
> > M)A`,C\BD<LEL.I^/(@1`K5JOV*QVR^UZO^"PF$LP2HIFJ'K-;KO?MK%\CAW8
> > M[_@\H#RE^_^`@8)D:1`"!@.%<(N,C8Z/<(.267F5>'N*"Y.;G)V3?&<&!@69
> 
> Terry, I don't know if this will post correctly.. but all I see 
> from the images you've been posting is a lengthy sections of 
> random gibberish characters.  Thunderbird 1.0.8 under Ubuntu 
> 5.10.  I can see other folk's pictures okay, it's only yours that 
> trip up TB here.  Any suggestions of what I might have set wrong?

Bob, I don't know about TB.  I'm using Gravity 2.6 on XP and it encodes 
the attached file as UUENCODE.  That's what all that gibberish is. :)

In Gravity I do Article > View to decode and view the image after it 
posts.

Perhaps Mark or Dutch can help?

In the meantime I think I'll follow Mark's suggestion about using 
www.imageshack.us instead.

-- 

Terry //

David Shepheard wrote:

>>Let me try this from another angle.  In a "normal menu" <g> one would 
>>click on the button to see a drop-down menu appear.
> 
> Isn't that a "normal *Microsoft Windows* menu"? I think that other operating 
> systems do different things with clicks and mouse over events. Some don't 
> even seem to bother with a right mouse button.

Well, in the GUI arena I've only used Windows, Macs, and Linux 
KDE and Gnome, but it seems to me that they all behave roughly 
the same in this respect.  You click the button to get to the 
menu it provides.

> I think that it could cause *some* slight confusion if the menu appears 
> automatically, but it could also cause *more* confusion if the menu is 
> changed into "Microsoft compatibility mode". Look at say the File menu of 
> any app and you will see that File isn't on the drop down menu itself. That 
> means that Steve would have to move something like "Home" down into the 
> clickable region. What is going to replace it as a menu heading? Two Home 
> buttons (one above the other) would not look good. You would have to have a 
> menu title that was different to home ("Main" perhaps).

Well, rather than "Home" the button might be labeled 
"Destination" or some such, and then "Home" would be one of the 
destinations available?

> I seemed to work out how the menus worked fairly quickly. Although, I do 
> think that it would be good if Steve did a quick copy and paste job and 
> uploaded 5 or 10 test pages that all had the menu and borrowed existing 
> content on them. That way we could troubleshoot one entire verticle menu 
> (and any submenus) to see if we could understand what Steve was trying to 
> do.

It took me until just the other day to realize that the buttons 
were also links.  As you mouse over it, the button depresses and 
the menu appears.  Since the button is already pushed down, it 
didn't occur to me to click on it.  It was already "automatically 
clicked."  It wasn't until I realized that the mouse pointer 
remained a "hand" even while pointing at the button itself that I 
realized it was a link.  And my first reaction to that was to 
think it was a bug.  You obviously caught on quicker.  :)

>>An off-the-wall thought.. but what if the menu did *not* appear with just 
>>a mouse-over, but rather required a click?  Could that be done with CSS? 
>>(If so, perhaps it would have the side-effect of making keyboard 
>>navigation possible.)  As I recall, the only things we can count on in CSS 
>>for a link are "visited", "active", "hover", and "link".

> You are onto something here. I tried using the tab key and it depresses the 
> menu buttons but doesn't make the menus themselves drop down. That means it 
> is currently useless without a mouse.

Well, given that we experienced different learning curves on how 
to use this.. we may well not agree on some aspects of it, but it 
appears we do agree that keyboard navigation would be a cool, and 
probably expected, feature.

> I *think* there is also a JavaScript event handler for capturing key presses 
> (onKeyDown), so that you could allow people to type "Alt+F" to drop down the 
> "Freeware" menu, then type "S" for "Security" and "L" for "Leaktest". You 
> could also let them type "Ctrl+L" to jump straight to "Leaktest" if this 
> event handler lets you. However, I think you would need to write a complete 
> JavaScript program that runs from the body tag, is called from the onKeyDown 
> event handler, checks what has just been pressed and remembers the previous 
> key presses.

Ut oh.. now we are back into client-side scripting.  I was 
thinking more that since the button was a link, perhaps Steve 
could have some server-side code that intercepted the link URL 
request and instead triggered some other action.. like dropping 
down the menu.  Possible?

> (Handling keyboard events would require a fairly complex JavaScript that 
> memorised a few keyboard clicks, compaired the last click against a number 
> of options and then used the DOM to jump to a new URL. You would have to 
> rejig the menus to look more like Windows menus to help people benifit from 
> it and if any visitor turned off JavaScript half the menu would be turned 
> off. I think you are better off keeping the menu mostly Windows 
> "unfriendly". However I *do* think you should change to Bob's proposed 
> "click to open a menu/submenu" system as it will let people navigate by 
> "tab" and "enter".

Maybe not so complex.. I'm thinking out loud.. but if the 
registered an attempt to access a certain destination (the 
"href=" part of the anchor tag) then perhaps it could step in and 
  do whatever it wanted at that point?  All of the existing work 
on the CSS would still be needed and used, but some additional 
server-side code would be needed.  I'd be interested in hearing 
if others agree with me that pressing the button to cause the 
menu to drop down is not just the Microsoft way of doing things 
but rather has become expected behavior whenever one sees a menu 
button to push.

-- 
Bob Trevithick

In grc.news.feedback David Shepheard wrote:

> "Mark V" <notvalid@nul.invalid> wrote:
>> In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:
>>
>>> [for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]
>>> think I can easily embed something into the menu thanks to
>>> all the server-side stuff I already have in place.  :)
>>
>> I thought maybe your HTML editor suite might have the option or
>> macro perhaps.  In any case, some of us will use such a unique
[ ]
> Hmmmm? Well you *could* spend time developing some fancy "date
> stamping" code so that people writing in this thread can view
> the HTML sorce and copy and paste the menu the version number...
> 
> ...or...
  
> ...if you only need to have version numbers for developing this
> *one* menu...
> 
> ...you could stick one line of body text under the menu that
> says somthing like: "<p>This is version 0.3.16 of the GRC Menu.
> Please mention the version number when making suggestions in the
> newsgroup.</p>" and simply manually update the line everytime
> you edit the menu. 
> 
> Maybe I'm missing something.

Not really, an automated way to "datestamp" each version of 
grcmenu.htm file with something see-able (in file) and unique.  

There is some history to all this and currently Steve's assembly 
code public projects all contain a unique version string such as to 
facilitate ID'ing any given file and also for isolating issues to a 
specific release.  This was not always so straightforward and 
automated (and useful) here. 

In grc.news.feedback David Shepheard wrote:

> "Mark V" <notvalid@nul.invalid> wrote:
>> 100%  (to keep it simple)
>> My last image
>> http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1552/grc630017dw.png
>> from
>> X-Url: http://www.GRC.com/groups/news.feedback:64934
> 
> Hmmm? I'm not sure if I like the big black bits to the right of
> the menus. 

Really?  <G>

> They will cover over the existing page content and don't seem to
[ ]

Yes, and we can now know with some certainty that Opera 8.x (which 
introduced "Fit to width") contained issues, rarely seen, and now 
corrected in 9.x

In grc.news.feedback Terry L. Webb wrote:

> [For the unexcerpted original, see above]
> Bob Trevithick wrote ...
> 
>> Terry L. Webb wrote:
>> > begin 755 Capture-5.gif
[ ]
>> Terry, I don't know if this will post correctly.. but all I see
>> from the images you've been posting is a lengthy sections of 
>> random gibberish characters.  Thunderbird 1.0.8 under Ubuntu 
[ ]

> Bob, I don't know about TB.  I'm using Gravity 2.6 on XP and it
> encodes the attached file as UUENCODE.  That's what all that
> gibberish is. :) 
> 
> In Gravity I do Article > View to decode and view the image
> after it posts.
> 
> Perhaps Mark or Dutch can help?

Yep, probably.  Can Gravity 2.6 use MIME/base64 encoding?  Most 
(all?) the news clients seen here about can handle that apparently.
Xnews here has no trouble with yours (or yEnc encoding) but MIME is 
likely most universally supported.

> In the meantime I think I'll follow Mark's suggestion about
> using www.imageshack.us instead.

Which has the advantage of not being part of the news permanent 
archive and requiring no decoding other than by the viewers' HTML 
browser.

"Bob Trevithick" <rft@qmail.invalid> wrote in message
news:e853vn$2aa7$1@news.grc.com...
> David Shepheard wrote:
>
>> Isn't that a "normal *Microsoft Windows* menu"? I think that other
>> operating systems do different things with clicks and mouse over events.
>> Some don't even seem to bother with a right mouse button.
>
> Well, in the GUI arena I've only used Windows, Macs, and Linux KDE and
> Gnome, but it seems to me that they all behave roughly the same in this
> respect.  You click the button to get to the menu it provides.

I stand corrected.

>> I think that it could cause *some* slight confusion if the menu appears
>> automatically, but it could also cause *more* confusion if the menu is
>> changed into "Microsoft compatibility mode". Look at say the File menu of
>> any app and you will see that File isn't on the drop down menu itself.
>> That means that Steve would have to move something like "Home" down into
>> the clickable region. What is going to replace it as a menu heading? Two
>> Home buttons (one above the other) would not look good. You would have to
>> have a menu title that was different to home ("Main" perhaps).
>
> Well, rather than "Home" the button might be labeled "Destination" or some
> such, and then "Home" would be one of the destinations available?

"Destination" is not a very evocative title, actually "Home" isn't that
helpful as a menu title either (even my Main suggestion isn't ideal). I
think Steve will have to have a think about titles after the menu is
working. Most of the rest seem ok.

>> I seemed to work out how the menus worked fairly quickly. Although, I do
>> think that it would be good if Steve did a quick copy and paste job and
>> uploaded 5 or 10 test pages that all had the menu and borrowed existing
>> content on them. That way we could troubleshoot one entire verticle menu
>> (and any submenus) to see if we could understand what Steve was trying to
>> do.
>
> It took me until just the other day to realize that the buttons were also
> links.  As you mouse over it, the button depresses and the menu appears.
> Since the button is already pushed down, it didn't occur to me to click on
> it.  It was already "automatically clicked."  It wasn't until I realized
> that the mouse pointer remained a "hand" even while pointing at the button
> itself that I realized it was a link.  And my first reaction to that was
> to think it was a bug.  You obviously caught on quicker.  :)

Only because I've seen Java menu applets that work exactly the same way. I
think that the mouseover menu was the first successful way to implement this
feature accross multiple browsers. I think that a lot of websites use it. I
thought about using something like this myself, but decided that the faffing
around getting it to work wasn't worth the effort. However having looked at
what Steve has achieved I might think again (if I can bear the thought of
editing tons of pages :-(  )

>>>An off-the-wall thought.. but what if the menu did *not* appear with just
>>>a mouse-over, but rather required a click?  Could that be done with CSS?
>>>(If so, perhaps it would have the side-effect of making keyboard
>>>navigation possible.)  As I recall, the only things we can count on in
>>>CSS for a link are "visited", "active", "hover", and "link".
>
>> You are onto something here. I tried using the tab key and it depresses
>> the menu buttons but doesn't make the menus themselves drop down. That
>> means it is currently useless without a mouse.
>
> Well, given that we experienced different learning curves on how to use
> this.. we may well not agree on some aspects of it, but it appears we do
> agree that keyboard navigation would be a cool, and probably expected,
> feature.

It might not be expected by everyone, but if you can't do it you do need a
workaround. However, having read another of Steve's post it looks like he
has this in hand already. Steve said that the main options will lead to
pages that have the other links on them. That means that the keyboard
navigators will only see the main options and will never realise the rest of
the menus exists. However if the main pages have links to the sub-pages at
the top, they should be able to get there with one click more than everyone
else.

>> I *think* there is also a JavaScript event handler for capturing key
>> presses (onKeyDown), so that you could allow people to type "Alt+F" to
>> drop down the "Freeware" menu, then type "S" for "Security" and "L" for
>> "Leaktest". You could also let them type "Ctrl+L" to jump straight to
>> "Leaktest" if this event handler lets you. However, I think you would
>> need to write a complete JavaScript program that runs from the body tag,
>> is called from the onKeyDown event handler, checks what has just been
>> pressed and remembers the previous key presses.
>
> Ut oh.. now we are back into client-side scripting.  I was thinking more
> that since the button was a link, perhaps Steve could have some
> server-side code that intercepted the link URL request and instead
> triggered some other action.. like dropping down the menu.  Possible?

Client side scripting is probably out for security reasons. (I doubt that
Steve would want to encourage his visitors to turn JavaScript on to be able
to use his site. He probably wags his finger at JavaScript and calls it
naughty! LOL)

I would think that server side scripting is unworkable. Having taught basic
computer skills to people with no former knowledge I've seen that when they
first go online they often have no appreciation of the lag the Internet
suffers and expect online things to happen as fast as things on the same
machine. I can see someone on a dialup connection repeatedly clicking on one
of Steve's buttons because "it won't turn on". How would his server cope
with 3, 4 or 5 clicks? If the menu repeatedly opened and closed (after a
delay) it would probably frustrate newbies. I think it is better for one
click or return press to take you to a page with all the sub menu links.

I think that although some people, like you, would miss things for a while
other people, like me, will have seen things before or will accidentally
click the wrong thing and learn something new.

Any confusion can probably be solved by adding a "Help" button that you can
click for help using the menu (and other navigation tools). Alternatively
Steve could add a HHGTTG style "Don't Panic!" link on the homepage that
either takes you to navigation instructions if you click on it or creates a
tooltip style mini version of the instructions if you mouse over it.

>> (Handling keyboard events would require a fairly complex JavaScript that
>> memorised a few keyboard clicks, compaired the last click against a
>> number of options and then used the DOM to jump to a new URL. You would
>> have to rejig the menus to look more like Windows menus to help people
>> benifit from it and if any visitor turned off JavaScript half the menu
>> would be turned off. I think you are better off keeping the menu mostly
>> Windows "unfriendly". However I *do* think you should change to Bob's
>> proposed "click to open a menu/submenu" system as it will let people
>> navigate by "tab" and "enter".
>
> Maybe not so complex.. I'm thinking out loud.. but if the registered an
> attempt to access a certain destination (the "href=" part of the anchor
> tag) then perhaps it could step in and do whatever it wanted at that
> point?  All of the existing work on the CSS would still be needed and
> used, but some additional server-side code would be needed.  I'd be
> interested in hearing if others agree with me that pressing the button to
> cause the menu to drop down is not just the Microsoft way of doing things
> but rather has become expected behavior whenever one sees a menu button to
> push.

I think that my JavaScript and your server-side ideas would create too much
extra work on what is mostly a very simple site (from the HTML side of
things). We would both be bloating up Steve's pages with only keyboard
navigators being catered for.

Why don't you check out the OnFocus and OnBlur event handlers to see if they
could be used to make the menus open and close. If you think they can, then
you could suggest a non-bloaty way for Steve to add keyboard support. Try
looking for menu tutorials to see if you can find one with the features you
like. Then you can post the URL for Steve to check it out. Even if you can't
find a tutorial, you can look for a webpage that works the way you like.
Obviously copyright stops Steve copying and pasting the code wholesale, but
I'm sure that we could all view the source and see how things are done on
the page. You can't copyright an idea!

The only way I can think to provide keyboard support this without a lot of
complex work is to change those top links like you suggested. However,
instead of removing them, you need to change them to null links so that the
onclick event handler can still be used. You would do it by changing the
links to something like href="#" and then adding a onclick event handler to
hack into the stylesheet (in the DOM) and show the menu. (If these things
work with the tab key then you can tab onto a menu to open it and tab off of
it to close it. Although I'm not sure yet how you would go down the options
on an individual menu.)

Some of the menus I've seen that are similar to Steve's do this, but it does
mean that errors could crash the page and browsers with (JavaScript) event
handlers disabled might not be able to use the link. I suppose Steve could
leave the original HTML link there but use an onclick event handler to grab
the click before the link surfs to the new page.

This would probably mean that JavaScript and non JavaScript users would
possibly use the navigation a different way, but it would allow everyone to
have the best chance at getting around.

Like I said, have a surf around and if you find a menu that works with
keyboards, I'll help you disect it! :-)
-- 
David Shepheard
(please reply in list as email address is fake)

In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see Terry L. Webb's post above]
> 
> Menu updated for Opera v8.54:
> 
> Mark and Terry ...
> 
> Well, I have some good news and some bad news.

> The good news is that the newly updated grcmenu successfully 
> removes the annoyingly persistent HScrollbar from the bottom
> of the page for all Operas.  I did that by -- bizarrely -- by 
[ ]

Yeah!   One more gremlin squashed.  :-)
 
> The bad news is that I am unable to do anything about the really 
> odd rendering behavior of the GRC menu system and Opera v8.54 
> when it's in its "Fit to Window Width" mode.
[ ]

> I'm sure glad that v9 fixed this, and that it only afflicts 
> people under v8.54 in FTWW mode ... since it's very clearly a 
> serious and bizarre Opera bug that no page has any control over.

Ah well, I almost expected that answer.  Still it is not the end of 
the world. ;)  Thanks Steve for looking at this issue more 
thoroughly and spending the time to dig down to the bottom.  I 
appreciate the investigative effort greatly.

Steve Gibson said in:<news:MPG.1f0f6311c2db04ecc7e@4.79.142.203>:
> [for the unabridged version, see Jason Doucette's post above]
> [...]
>> After reading your response to Milly's post, I agree that this
>> will look great at the top of all of your pages, and I understand
>> more about what you were trying to accomplish (the idea that it
>> has to fit in with the content of all of your pages).
> 
> [...] So I'm looking for a design that will 
> be distinctive and good-looking either above an all-white or 
> black-top page.

My design suggestion (which was more an endorsement for another one
of yours, than anything original to me), had in mind that *all* your
pages would then effectively be 'black-tops', so that you wouldn't
then need to add another black-top below the menubar. And that the
included logo could change according to content: e.g. SpinRite (like
on /default.htm or /sr/spinrite.htm) or Security Now! (on
/securitynow.htm). Because I really like your black-top look :)

As for the metal masthead being compatible no matter the content,
then yes, I think it's neutral enough to be that, and it'll work
fine on the all-white pages. Though I wonder about the black-tops:
won't those pages appear to have *two* mastheads? Maybe that'll work
anyway, with the great contrasting colours/designs. But it may seem
a lot of pre-content stuff, perhaps.

> And, frankly, I just *love* the way the straight-top-edged 
> buttons interface with the bottom of the large silver bar. It 
> creates the effect that the "masthead" is standing apart from 
> and above the pages beneath it ... which its integrated menu is 
> calling forth.

Yep, even more so now. 

> Also, there was quite valid concern expressed that my upcoming 
> "third-party cookie warning" banner might be confused for a 
> bogus commercial warning of some kind.  But once the site-wide 
> masthead theme has been established, anything that "integrates" 
> cleanly with it, as any notifications will, will clearly be 
> coming from GRC.  :)

Mmm, I suppose. Though I think anything other than a banner ad would
do too. There's an argument that people will soon stop reading the
site-wide masthead (except when hovering a menu item), since it will
look an intrinsic part of the furniture. 

That probably applies to any consistent masthead area though. Hmm.
Unless you changed 'my' black to red or green or yellow, say, when
any warning or alert was displayed. 

Of course (recognising that metal is the likely winner) you might,
on warning or alert, turn the metal (the whole thing, or just a
relevant button) to copper or bronze or ...
-- 

Milly

Steve Gibson said in:<news:MPG.1f0f13249a8d23cec66@4.79.142.203>:
> [for the unabridged version, see Milly's post above]
> 
> Milly,
> 
> I'll do a treatment such as you suggest -- just a black upper 
> region with the "menu pipe" below it -- for comparison since I 
> want to see that too. But I like this present look a great deal. 
> If I can come up with something better, so much the better. But 
> if this current look is where we wind up I'll be able to live 
> with this happily for a long time.

That's the most important thing (after usability). FWIW, it's grown
on me some more, with the changes, and a little time.

> (And, of course, the top-of-page injection technology will allow
> it to be changed any time we wish.)
> 
> For what it's worth, I think that the subtle flat and smooth 
> high-polish metal look it has is clean and contemporary and 
> quite different from any others I've seen. 

Yeah, I shouldn't have said "just like", 'cos it isn't.

> As you said, it looks 
> extremely clean and "tooled" and precise, which I like a lot. 

Me too. I just worry about the expanse of it. But we haven't the got
the tooltip text in yet, nor the search, nor the alerts - any/all of
which will 'break up' the expanse. Nor the rest of a page, to show
balance and context.
 
> And the only thing it really has in common with other 
> "metallic" concepts is that it's also metallic -- which I don't 
> hold against it as you do because I think that's its great 
> merit. It is not Apple's "brushed metal" with a gradual side-to-
> side brightness fade, nor is it the now common slow bottom to 
> top brightness graduation. 

All true. 

> So, while it seems to be your opinion 
> that, being metallic, it's been done before 

Though remember that I've always (said I've) loved your metal pipe
menubar, and still do. Metal is fine with me: but it's possible to
have too much of a good thing.

> ... I've never seen anything like it.
>
> One of the other considerations is that it's neutral and 
> different from anything we currently have at GRC.  I like that 
> this sets it apart from whatever page will be appearing below. 
> This new page header will literally be "injected" into the top 
> of all of GRC's current pages so it needs to interface smoothly 
> with whatever happens to lie at what used to be the top of the 
> page.  Since GRC's pages are currently either all white or 
> "black header", I like this present look since it's distinctive 
> from the pages that will be below.

Yep. As I mention elsewhere, I had in mind that the black masthead
would be instead of any existing black-tops (of which there can't be
more than a handful, surely?). 

> All that said ... I'll next pursue a black region for 
> comparison.  :)

I'm not anticipating a mass conversion ... ;)
-- 

Milly

Steve Gibson said in:<news:MPG.1f0f72406aaaf5c3c8c@4.79.142.203>:
> [for the unabridged version, see Bob Trevithick's post above]
> [...]
> As for whether the top-level items themselves should be links 
> ... it *has* been my plan that they would be.  The "Home" button 
> would take the user to our home page, the "SpinRite" button to 
> the main SpinRite page, and the "Services" button would take 
> users to a new "Services" page where all of the services were 
> explained in detail.  The "Freeware" top-level button would take 
> users to the "FreeStuff" page, which I'll probably rename 
> "Freeware" for consistency.  The "Research" button would lead to 
> a new "Research" page which described all of GRC's "research" in 
> one page.
> 
> So ... yes ... while I could easily suppress the "linkness" of 
> the top level, I think they should be links ... and we'll have 
> some new pages to be directories.
>
> Also ... in non-CSS browsers, or any case where people want to 
> disable the menu system for whatever reason, we would still have 
> top-level links taking people to second level PAGES where all 
> the resources on the second-level menus could be found.  :)

And, partly addressing the 'discoverability' issue which started
this topic, remember that most users, and most browsers, will be
showing a (different, when finalised) URL in the status bar for
those top level links. 
-- 

Milly

Mark V said in:<news:Xns97F2C58195BC1z9zzaQ2btw@news.grc.com>:
> In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:
>> [for the unabridged version, see Jason Doucette's post above]
>>> In IE 6.0 and FF 1.5.0.3, the OpenVPN button lacks a black line
>> [...]
>> That's my feeling too.  Milly was a lot more negative about the 
>> whole metallic theme idea than I am.  Whenever I look at it 
>> again it just looks beautiful and precise and clean and smooth.

It looks that way to me too (especially the latest version), to be
clear. My only beef is whether that *much* metal/techno styling is
now too commonplace.

> FWIW I understand Milly's view of the styling as "adopting a fad" 
> in some sense, 

Mmm, coinciding with a fad, perhaps.

> but did not find it so personally objectionable.  

I just re-read my post: I dunno, it doesn't read *so* strong to me ;)

> Rather, I appreciate the look and feel and especially the enhanced 
> contrast and readability of this design.

Yep.
-- 

Milly

Steve Gibson said in:<news:MPG.1f0f1835b9bccce4c69@4.79.142.203>:
> [for the unabridged version, see Jason Doucette's post above]
> [...]
> One thing I can say is that the shaded-bottom-only buttons look 
> SPECTACULAR when placed at the very top of the page!  It's sort 
> of a pity that I'm committed to having the menu bar below a 
> header region (as I am) since those buttons are amazing looking 
> when they directly abut the top of the browser's page!  :)

Ah, but you'll also have shaded-top-only buttons looking SPECTACULAR
when directly abutting the very bottom of the page! :)
-- 

Milly

Dirk Engelage said in:<news:cAQ+NPHv1RpEFwRO@amd2600.zolder.net>:
> In message <hwisg67j8r02.dlg@0O.0O>, Milly <?.?@?.?.?.?.?.?.invalid> 
> writes
>>Steve Gibson said in:<news:MPG.1f0e6a6ebda9109cc60@4.79.142.203>:
>>> [...]
>>> http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm
> <snip>
>>Yeah, they do, but ... I think you can have too much of a good
>>thing.
> <snip>
>>Too much metal together (too much of any one thing together), for my
>>taste.
> 
> It's all a matter of taste of course, but I sure don't agree with you on 
> this, Milly. 

Yet another check in the disagree column. This is beginning to look
like this afternoon's England v. Portugal scoreline ...

> Although you're right about the fact that the metallic-look 
> is being widely used, I find Steve's layout much better looking than 
> most of what I've seen. Just my opinion . . .

It's certainly lighter than most I've seen, which is better (in this
context) in my book too.
-- 

Milly

Bob Trevithick said in:<news:e845k3$1e14$1@news.grc.com>:
> Milly wrote:
> 
>> I'd much prefer the symmetrical 'pipe' shape to the menubar, with
>> this new sized header area as a logo and white text on a plain, deep
>> black background (like here, but above the menubar, and smaller:
>> http://www.grc.com/default.htm ). The black needn't have any 3D
>> shaping, as the pipe will seem to rise above it anyway (as it
>> already does, elsewhere).
> 
> I don't believe I've ever disagreed with you before, Milly.. 

S'okay - there's an outbreak! ;)

> largely because you have the annoying habit of always being 
> right.  :)  But I really love the look of the current test page, 
> and think it's unique and attractive.  Even if it weren't unique, 
> that wouldn't make it less attractive in my eyes.

True. Indeed my own black and yellow design .... 

> But, to soften this crushing blow, I'll concede to you that I've 
> set up Thunderbird here to have a light *yellow* background!  I 
> think it's legible and easier on the eyes.. so I guess you're 
> slowly bringing me around to see the wisdom of the "Yellow 
> Policy."  <g>

 ... was inspired (if not stolen) from some (now abandoned) BBC
children's television animated idents :-

http://www.tvradiobits.co.uk/idents/cbbc.htm
-- 

Milly

Am Sat, 1 Jul 2006 11:10:26 +0100, Milly sagt:

(Snip)

> True. Indeed my own black and yellow design .... 

(Snip)
 
>  ... was inspired (if not stolen) from some (now abandoned) BBC
> children's television animated idents :-
> 
> http://www.tvradiobits.co.uk/idents/cbbc.htm

To me, black and yellow graphics signify flammable solids, organic 
peroxides, and radiation hazards. They get my attention, but not in a 
good way.

-- 
Yrs & oblige
RH

Milly said in:<news:7hlcohhfojta.dlg@0O.0O>:
> Steve Gibson said in:<news:MPG.1f0f13249a8d23cec66@4.79.142.203>:
>> [for the unabridged version, see Milly's post above]
> [...]
>> As you said, it looks 
>> extremely clean and "tooled" and precise, which I like a lot. 
> 
> Me too. I just worry about the expanse of it. But we haven't the got
> the tooltip text in yet, nor the search, nor the alerts - any/all of
> which will 'break up' the expanse. Nor the rest of a page, to show
> balance and context.

Btw, how about chiseling in (or raising like the logo itself), the
text accompanying the GRC logo? It looks a little flat compared to
the button text, now.

--------------------------------

Also, once you (greatly) crank up the text size in Firefox, the
elements get separated :-

http://www.imilly.com/files/fftext.jpg	70kb

It's still functional, though, so maybe it's not worth worrying
about.
-- 

Milly

Mister Hucker said in:<news:e85mk1$2pmv$1@news.grc.com>:
> Am Sat, 1 Jul 2006 11:10:26 +0100, Milly sagt:
> 
> (Snip)
> 
>> True. Indeed my own black and yellow design .... 
> 
> (Snip)
>  
>>  ... was inspired (if not stolen) from some (now abandoned) BBC
>> children's television animated idents :-
>> 
>> http://www.tvradiobits.co.uk/idents/cbbc.htm
> 
> To me, black and yellow graphics signify flammable solids, organic 
> peroxides, and radiation hazards. 

That perfectly describes my site! ;)

> They get my attention, but not in a good way.

Anything to counteract the sleep-inducing content ...
-- 

Milly

Steve Gibson said in:<news:MPG.1f0f54052ad4632dc76@4.79.142.203>:
> [for the unabridged version, see sparky's post above]
> [...]
>> As to the look, I like it, although I do think your new logo
>> does take up a large amount of space.  With a narrow window
>> it doesn't leave much space to the right for your custom text box.
> 
> Oh ... my intention is for the custom text box and other 
> messages to be left-aligned and REPLACE the logo whenever they 
> are present.  I'm thinking that the "ruby G" will remain.  [...]

How come your "ruby G" favicon is purple? :)
-- 

Milly

In article <14jd9hhl6vwm6.dlg@0O.0O> Milly wrote:
> 
> How come your "ruby G" favicon is purple? :)

It looks ruby red here...

-- 
Alan
The Energetic Atom, Inertia, and Nonmaterial Interfaces:
< http://www.cox-internet.com/hermital/book/holoprt5-5.htm;
  http://hermital.org/book/holoprt5-5.htm >

Steve Gibson wrote:
> [for the unabridged version, see sparky's post above]
> 
> 
>>You know I'm going to comment on the use of styles in the HTML again ;)
> 
> 
> Of course.  I count on it.  I'm picking up a lot from you, who 
> has been using CSS far longer than I have.
> 
> 

well, only for a year and only to 'play' I've not done anything serious 
with CSS.  You are finding compatibility issues that I didn't know about.

<snip>
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, none of that works, and I tried very much the 
> same sorts of things right off the bat yesterday.  As written 
> above, none of the browsers float the mh-r.gif all the way to 
> the right.  It goes immediately to the right of the mh-l.gif 
> image.
> 
> And I knew that <span>'s were not needed ... but there's a 
> layout bug in IE5.5 that requires them.  Without <spans>'s 
> bracketing the images, the image are not pushed all the way to 
> the extremes of the page ... about five pixels of the background 
> image are seen instead.
> 
> I just re-verified all this before making this posting.
> 

and here is an example, you have found that you needed the <span>s to 
get things to work.

> But I certainly understand everything you mean about the 
> stylistic aspects of what you said.  For what it's worth, we 
> will probably always approach CSS with differing philosophies.  
> But then, as someone who chooses to write all of his important 
> code in assembly language, that's probably to be expected! <g>
> 

Yes, maybe although I'm an assembly level coder at heart.  I wrote code 
for a large number of processors in the 80's and 90's - I only learn C 
in 94 and C++ a year later. ;)

> Specifically, I don't have any problem with the use of simple 
> inline tweaking styles embedded in the XHTML.  The standards 
> allow for it, it validates just fine, and it seems counter 
> productive to define a "floatright" class containing only 
> "float:right;" and then putting "class="floatright" into the 
> tag, versus simply putting style="float:right" into the tag 
> directly.
> 

Maybe I'm a purist, like you with assembler.  I just see the separation 
of content from style as the major win for CSS - it just makes so much 
sense to me to make up the content as headers, paragraphs, lists, 
<strong> etc so that it's totally accessible to non-visual readers as 
well as being readable unstyled or with a custom user style sheet for 
people with sight problems.

> The threshold, of course, is for the "floatright" class to have 
> nothing other than a "float:right".  Anything more and a class 
> starts to make sense.
> 
> 

but, floatright is something that you will probably do often and it 
makes sense as a little class.  If you no longer wish to float an item 
right then remove the class or use another.

> 
> Oh ... my intention is for the custom text box and other 
> messages to be left-aligned and REPLACE the logo whenever they 
> are present.  I'm thinking that the "ruby G" will remain.  But 
> CSS allows such nice reuse of real estate that I'm planning to 
> leverage that.  :)
> 
> The idea is for that region above the menu to become a nice 
> multi-purpose region where the server and/or menu can display 
> anything it needs to.
> 
>

Oh I see sounds good to me :)

> 
> 
> Well ... the plan is for them to be covered up too.  They will 
> be floating right and protected from collapse, etc.  But when 
> you're hovering your mouse over the menu you're not pressing the 
> Site Map and Search buttons, so the two are nicely mutually 
> exclusive.
> 
> I hope to get the rest of this working so that people can see 
> what I'm thinking.  :)
> 

I like the new version by the way.  To my mind it doesn't look 
'metallic' more beveled 'plastic'

Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see MicroChip's post above]
> 
> 
>>Thats basicly what I was suggesting eariler, except I was
>>proposing to extend the [look of] the background of the area
>>above down into the 'empty space' resulting in the look of
>>the edge of a metal serface, with buttons inset into two
>>corners of it.
> 
> 
> <<grin>>  Somehow I missed that idea MC.  But, as you'll know
> if you've seen the latest ... I got there in a round-about
> way anyway!

Yep, Just got around to scanning the group this morning. Looks every bit
as good as I imagined. And solves the light-left-border issue of the
neighborhood button as well.

-- 
____________                                                       _
,_ _  _| _  _|_   _ ,__   +-+-+-+-+-+- Go Hamster Go! -+-+-+-+-+-+  |
| | |(_|(/_(_| |o(_)|(_|  Get PGP key at http://www.mctech.org/pgp  |
mc at mctech dot org __|  The Paranoid Cynic             MicroChip _|

Follow-ups set for grc.test

[For the unexcerpted original, see above]
Mark V wrote ...

> In grc.news.feedback Terry L. Webb wrote:
> 
> > [...]
> > Bob, I don't know about TB.  I'm using Gravity 2.6 on XP and it
> > encodes the attached file as UUENCODE.  That's what all that
> > gibberish is. :) 
> > 
> > In Gravity I do Article > View to decode and view the image
> > after it posts.
> > 
> > Perhaps Mark or Dutch can help?
> 
> Yep, probably.  Can Gravity 2.6 use MIME/base64 encoding?  Most 
> (all?) the news clients seen here about can handle that apparently.
> Xnews here has no trouble with yours (or yEnc encoding) but MIME is 
> likely most universally supported.

Thanks Mark.  Yes it does.

Bob, I'll try MIME/base64 encoding over in grc.test.

> > In the meantime I think I'll follow Mark's suggestion about
> > using www.imageshack.us instead.
> 
> Which has the advantage of not being part of the news permanent 
> archive and requiring no decoding other than by the viewers' HTML 
> browser.

Although I can see where a permanent copy of a screen capture would be a 
good thing for future reference and context -- especially during an R&D 
phase.

-- 

Terry //

hermital said in:<news:e85ud7$30ij$2@news.grc.com>:
> In article <14jd9hhl6vwm6.dlg@0O.0O> Milly wrote:
>> 
>> How come your "ruby G" favicon is purple? :)
> 
> It looks ruby red here...

Not the logo, but the favicon. Compare and contrast? :-

http://www.imilly.com/files/rubyoffrails.jpg	29kb

-- 

Milly

[For the unexcerpted original, see above]
Bob Trevithick wrote ...

> Terry, I don't know if this will post correctly.. but all I see 
> from the images you've been posting is a lengthy sections of 
> random gibberish characters.  Thunderbird 1.0.8 under Ubuntu 
> 5.10.  I can see other folk's pictures okay, it's only yours that 
> trip up TB here.  Any suggestions of what I might have set wrong?
> 
> Thanks!

Bob, I tried Mark's MIME/base64 suggestion down in grc.test, see if TB 
can do anything with it.

Thanks.

-- 

Terry //

In article <1rq35u7sl7nis$.dlg@0O.0O> Milly wrote:
> hermital said in:<news:e85ud7$30ij$2@news.grc.com>:
>> In article <14jd9hhl6vwm6.dlg@0O.0O> Milly wrote:
>>> How come your "ruby G" favicon is purple? :)
>> It looks ruby red here...
> 
> Not the logo, but the favicon. Compare and contrast? :-
> 
> http://www.imilly.com/files/rubyoffrails.jpg	29kb
> 
I'll be darned.  Another detail I missed.  Who would have thunk 
it?  You're right again. As usual. :)

-- 
Alan
Fundamental, irreducible primordial energy
exists in the absence of matter,
but matter is entirely dependent upon energy
and cannot exist in the absence of energy. - A.T. Williams
< http://hermital.org/book/holoprt2-1.htm >

Milly said in:<news:1u5d3d3a0dszg$.dlg@0O.0O>:
>> [...]
>> It's all a matter of taste of course, but I sure don't agree with you on 
>> this, Milly. 
> 
> Yet another check in the disagree column. This is beginning to look
> like this afternoon's England v. Portugal scoreline ...

Yep :(
-- 

Milly

"Milly" <.@.....> wrote in message news:5lm7lkq28tp6$.dlg@0O.0O...
> Of course (recognising that metal is the likely winner) you might,
> on warning or alert, turn the metal (the whole thing, or just a
> relevant button) to copper or bronze or ...

That is a good idea Milly. I suppose that if the colour was provided by GIF 
files you could swap out the normal masthead backgrounds for animated GIFs 
that flash backwards and forwards between silver to copper (or silver and 
bronze). That would be *very* eye-grabbing. It might be irritating after a 
while, but you could easily get it to only repeat a certain number of times 
(perhaps 10 flashes over 30 seconds).

Any warning notices could also be accompanied by a black warning triangle 
filled with hazard yellow. You could either stick in an exclaimtion mark or 
create a grc.com warning triangle that has the iconic G logo in the middle. 
If you did a site specific warning triangle then you could pull the normal G 
logo off of the page and replace it with the warning triangle. That way 
people could be given two clear visual cues that a page is not a normal one.

You might also want to lift some ideas from the UK saftey signs. Here is a 
commercial page that shows a few:

http://www.doubleimage.co.uk/multipur.html#t1

Sadly the US safety signs are a bit unimpressive, but I think that something 
similar to the UK style (perhaps surrounded by a yellow and black hazard 
box) would get people to read the essential instructions. For example on 
your ShieldsUp! warning page ( https://www.grc.com/x/ne.dll?bh0bkyd2 ) your 
"Please take a just a moment to read and consider these three points:" 
notice would fit very well into a UK style caution warning box directly 
underneath the GRC menu. (At the moment the top space is occupied by two 
internal "adverts" that pull attention away from this warning.)
-- 
David Shepheard
(please reply in list as email address is fake) 

[For the unexcerpted original, see above]
Milly wrote ...

> Milly said in:<news:1u5d3d3a0dszg$.dlg@0O.0O>:
> >> [...]
> >> It's all a matter of taste of course, but I sure don't agree with you on 
> >> this, Milly. 
> > 
> > Yet another check in the disagree column. This is beginning to look
> > like this afternoon's England v. Portugal scoreline ...
> 
> Yep :(

I'm not a soccer fan, but it appears that Luiz Felipe Scolari is 
England's mortal nemesis.

-- 

Terry //

Terry L. Webb wrote:
> [For the unexcerpted original, see above]
> Milly wrote ...
>
>> Milly said in:<news:1u5d3d3a0dszg$.dlg@0O.0O>:
>>>> [...]
>>>> It's all a matter of taste of course, but I sure don't agree with
>>>> you on this, Milly.
>>>
>>> Yet another check in the disagree column. This is beginning to look
>>> like this afternoon's England v. Portugal scoreline ...
>>
>> Yep :(
>
> I'm not a soccer fan, but it appears that Luiz Felipe Scolari is
> England's mortal nemesis.

It's over.  England lost.

-- 
Robert
GRC newsgroup tips - http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm
List of Lists - http://lists.thedatalist.com/
Privacy and Security - https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/ehowes/www/main-nf.htm 

Terry L. Webb said
in:<news:MPG.1f10839f1dd23a4d989abb@news.grc.com>:
> [For the unexcerpted original, see above]
> Milly wrote ...
> 
>> Milly said in:<news:1u5d3d3a0dszg$.dlg@0O.0O>:
>>>> [...]
>>>> It's all a matter of taste of course, but I sure don't agree with you on 
>>>> this, Milly. 
>>> 
>>> Yet another check in the disagree column. This is beginning to look
>>> like this afternoon's England v. Portugal scoreline ...
>> 
>> Yep :(
> 
> I'm not a soccer fan, but it appears that Luiz Felipe Scolari is 
> England's mortal nemesis.

Alas, I think that Sven-G�ran Eriksson has that role ...

On the brighter side, Andy Murray just beat Andy Roddick, and is
going strong. A Brit winning Wimbledon would be even more unlikely
than England winning the World Cup.
-- 

Milly

"Milly" <.@.....> wrote:
> Terry L. Webb said:
>> Milly wrote ...
>>> Milly said:
>>>> Yet another check in the disagree column. This is beginning to look
>>>> like this afternoon's England v. Portugal scoreline ...
>>>
>>> Yep :(
>>
>> I'm not a soccer fan, but it appears that Luiz Felipe Scolari is
>> England's mortal nemesis.
>
> Alas, I think that Sven-G�ran Eriksson has that role ...
>
> On the brighter side, Andy Murray just beat Andy Roddick, and is
> going strong. A Brit winning Wimbledon would be even more unlikely
> than England winning the World Cup.

I think *Al* Murray is more likely to provide a "brighter side" (if you 
listen to his World Cup Song):

http://www.thepublandlord.com/world_cup_song/

Anyhoo, we better get back to checking out that new menu!
-- 
David Shepheard
(please reply in list as email address is fake)

Milly <.@.....> wrote in <news:14jd9hhl6vwm6.dlg@0O.0O>:

> Steve Gibson said in:<news:MPG.1f0f54052ad4632dc76@4.79.142.203>:

>> I'm thinking that the "ruby G" will remain.  [...]
>
> How come your "ruby G" favicon is purple? :)

I'm so used to seeing the purple one that the red one on the masthead
surprised me.

-- 
�Q�

In grc.news.feedback David Shepheard wrote:

> "Milly" <.@.....> wrote in message
> news:5lm7lkq28tp6$.dlg@0O.0O... 
>> Of course (recognising that metal is the likely winner) you
>> might, on warning or alert, turn the metal (the whole thing, or
>> just a relevant button) to copper or bronze or ...
> 
> That is a good idea Milly. I suppose that if the colour was
> provided by GIF files you could swap out the normal masthead
> backgrounds for animated GIFs that flash backwards and forwards
> between silver to copper (or silver and bronze). That would be
> *very* eye-grabbing. It might be irritating after a while, but
> you could easily get it to only repeat a certain number of times
> (perhaps 10 flashes over 30 seconds).
[ ]

SCREAM!!!!!!!!  Next you will advocate using Flash and constant 
motion menus!  I sure hope _not_ to see any scrolling/flashing 
text, flashing buttons or rainbow marshmallows.
:-)

But hey Steve, can we have a warp drive effect?  :-\

Milly wrote:
> 
> Also, once you (greatly) crank up the text size in Firefox, the
> elements get separated :-
> 
> http://www.imilly.com/files/fftext.jpg	70kb
> 
> It's still functional, though, so maybe it's not worth worrying
> about.

Steve needs to vertical-align: top; the images to fix that.

[for the unabridged version, see Milly's post above]

> It's certainly lighter than most I've seen, which
> is better (in this context) in my book too.

With its recent evolution which lost three of the four sides of 
shading it has largely lost the "milled metallic bar" look, so 
perhaps it looks less "cliche" to you now.  <g>

As for the "lightness" -- I want to generally use dark text on 
the bar, so I went with the lightest grey I could use that would 
still allow the use of pure white to create highlights above the 
grey background -- thus the white button edges that still manage 
to get a highlight against the very light grey.

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see sparky's post above]

> Steve needs to vertical-align: top; the images to fix that.

Got it.  Nice.  :)   Thanks again, as always, Paul!

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Milly's post above]

> Ah, but you'll also have shaded-top-only buttons looking
> SPECTACULAR when directly abutting the very bottom of the page! :)

Exactly.  As I've written since (in a reply to Mark) My thought 
is for the very bottom edge of the page to have an upward 
popping menu system ... and probably floating above it would be 
our standard copyright block to be covered by the menus.  :)

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see David Shepheard's post above]

> As someone who only recently surfed onto your website I must
> admit I got a little lost for a while. Some of your existing
> pages also have a different feel to them, as if they are parts
> of different websites.

Yes. Unlike many companies who are web-centric, GRC does not 
have a "webmaster" whose job it is to work on the company's web 
site. Instead we have only me creating pages and, from time to 
time, tending the site. So what you're seeing is the result of 
me creating pages over the course of many years with some 
inevitable "style drift" over the time.

When I look back at my earlier more exuberant writing and 
formatting I'm a bit embarrassed ... but not enough to trade the 
time that would be required for re-writing and re-designing 
those old pages for the forward-motion work I could be doing 
instead.


> Your new masthead-menu design will make it much easier to
> navigate than before. Better than that it feels easier to
> navigate than before so a newbie is much less likely to say
> "Agggh!" and run away.

Exactly.  We receive complaints from people who would like to be 
able to find the resources we have here, and expect us to help 
them do so, rather than to make it challenging.  (Imagine that!) 
So I'm excited by the idea of putting a complete and highly 
accessible directory of the entire site at the top of every 
page.


> Even if you have to leave the links at the top for non-css
> browsers or text-browsers I'm sure you can put a inline link
> (with style="hidden" to let you disable it) at the top of the
> page that jumps past the menu links down to the main content.

Right. And since we'll be offering some site-level customization 
through first-party cookies, non-CSS users will have the option 
of removing those long link lists from the top of every page.


> You could either resize and incorporate logos like Shields Up
> into the masthead or move them beneath the masthead/menu to
> create a universal corporate style to your entire website.

Important as "ShieldsUP!" is to GRC, it's really just one of 
many current and future services.  So I'm planning to keep the 
main GRC logo and name as it is, then let the various 
"neighborhoods" of GRC declare themselves as they do now at the 
tops of their pages.


> I think that at some point you should add some fake content to
> the test page ( http://www.grc.com/grcmenu.htm ) so that people
> can see how it would work in conjunction with some of your
> existing text and images.

Yep.  Will do for sure.


> I'm a little concerned that your existing pages sometimes have a
> black area at the top ( http://www.grc.com/default.htm ) and
> sometimes have a white area at the top
> ( https://www.grc.com/x/ne.dll?bh0bkyd2 ). I'm sure you have 
> a reason for the two different styles but I couldn't see it.

I was never able to find a logo for SpinRite that I liked 
against a white background.  It just looks so great against 
black.  And the same is true for Leaktest.  I love the creaky 
looking old dripping logo. But ShieldsUP! has always been 
against a white background, as have the majority of our 
neighborhood logos.  So ... I just do whatever works.  :)


> Unless this colour difference is supposed to signify something
> (like all tools have mastheads that are a different colour to
> infomation only pages) I think it might be worth using the same
> colour for all pages and using something in or under the
> masthead/menu bar as a cue that shows you where you are.

As you probably know by now, we have the "neighborhood" button 
floating to the far left which will always contain a directory 
of the pages within the neighborhood ... and a "You are here" 
label and arrow to explain to and remind people what that's 
about.


> How about adding a clickable breadcrumb trail under the menu bar?
> That would add navigation as well as help people remember where
> something was.

I'm familiar with the notion of a bread crumb trail.  And it's 
elegant that clicking back up the trail allows users to return 
to a higher point in the site, and also to see where they are.  
I could certainly add a facility like that.  But it seems to me 
that such a system is rendered a bit less necessary by the every 
present menuing system allows someone to go directly from 
anywhere on the site to anywhere else.  So there's no need to 
back track two levels to an index page, then see what's there 
and drill-down again.

The pervasive menu allows people to roam the site's topics 
without moving ... and then to jump directly to their goal.


> A breadcrumb trail could also help you to divert page rank from
> all your "less important" pages onto your homepage and *also*
> divert a lesser amount of page rank from your sub-menu pages onto
> the pages above them. So a breadcrumb trail reading:
> 
> Home > Research > Pending > LanSlide
> 
> Would donate an equal amount of page rank to the "Home", "Research" and 
> "Pending" pages. And because only 5 pages spin off from the "Pending" 
> section it would get much less page rank donated to it than your "Research" 
> page (25 spin off pages or 5 times the page rank donation) or your main 
> "Home" page (I can't be bothered to count how many pages spin off from this, 
> but I'm sure you get the point). This should allow you to push your most 
> important pages up the listings of the search engines. Bearing in mind that 
> the bottom level pages are usually going to be found by people who know and 
> search for the exact names of things (like "ShieldsUp") I don't think it 
> matters if their page rank drops lower than your main pages. (Note that the 
> new main GRC menu *probably* doesn't help page rank donation as all pages 
> will *probably* have exactly the same links on every page and your homepage 
> will therefore give away as much as it recieves.)
> 
> Excuse me if you already know about donating page rank to improve SEO, but I 
> didn't notice the original plan and I wasn't sure what was going under the 
> masthead/menu.

You've lost me completely there David.

I know nothing about this idea of pages donating rank to others. 
Have you some links I can read??

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see David Shepheard's post above]

> The Open VPN button is too small in the capture 5 picture. It
> looks *really* odd and spoils the line of the menu. Even with
> the menu wrap on a small screen it should be consistant with
> the rest of the buttons.

A number of things about this menuing system are still unclear 
because they're in my head and not yet working.

The "OpenVPN" button is just a placeholder for what we're 
calling the "neighborhood" button which will serve as a "You are 
here" anchor. It will be a menu -- that changes based upon the 
user's present location -- to show in its heading which region 
of the site the user is in and its menu -- when it has one -- 
will list all of that region's various pages.

So the whole system has been designed with the notion of that 
far-right button's WIDTH changing dynamically as required to 
hold the length of text in the button's name.  :)

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.

Steve Gibson said in:<news:MPG.1f11dbba3f53690cca6@4.79.142.203>:
> [for the unabridged version, see Milly's post above]
> 
>> It's certainly lighter than most I've seen, which
>> is better (in this context) in my book too.
> 
> With its recent evolution which lost three of the four sides of 
> shading it has largely lost the "milled metallic bar" look, so 
> perhaps it looks less "cliche" to you now.  <g>

Very much so :)
-- 

Milly

Steve Gibson said in:<news:MPG.1f146bacfc8a4141cb1@4.79.142.203>:
> [for the unabridged version, see David Shepheard's post above]
>> [...]
>> Excuse me if you already know about donating page rank to improve SEO, but I 
>> didn't notice the original plan and I wasn't sure what was going under the 
>> masthead/menu.
> 
> You've lost me completely there David.
> 
> I know nothing about this idea of pages donating rank to others. 
> Have you some links I can read??

Oh dear, we may lose you for years ;)

http://www.rankspirit.com/pagerankeng.php#utiliser

http://www.rankspirit.com/downloadprceng.php

http://pr.efactory.de/e-pagerank-distribution.shtml
-- 

Milly

[for the unabridged version, see Milly's post above]

> Oh dear, we may lose you for years ;)
> 
> http://www.rankspirit.com/pagerankeng.php#utiliser
> 
> http://www.rankspirit.com/downloadprceng.php
> 
> http://pr.efactory.de/e-pagerank-distribution.shtml

Interesting stuff.  But I think that the fundamental principle 
of doing good things and attracting attention, visitors, and 
incoming links by being relevant and important remains the best 
solution.

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.   Working on menuing: http://www.grc.com/menu/invitro.htm

"Steve Gibson" <news06_@_grc.com> wrote:
> [for the unabridged version, see David Shepheard's post above]
>
>> As someone who only recently surfed onto your website I must
>> admit I got a little lost for a while. Some of your existing
>> pages also have a different feel to them, as if they are parts
>> of different websites.
>
> Yes. Unlike many companies who are web-centric, GRC does not
> have a "webmaster" whose job it is to work on the company's web
> site. Instead we have only me creating pages and, from time to
> time, tending the site. So what you're seeing is the result of
> me creating pages over the course of many years with some
> inevitable "style drift" over the time.
>
> When I look back at my earlier more exuberant writing and
> formatting I'm a bit embarrassed ... but not enough to trade the
> time that would be required for re-writing and re-designing
> those old pages for the forward-motion work I could be doing
> instead.

Although I have had some trouble getting around, I do think that you have 
nothing to be embarrased about. You have a website filled with top quality 
content that was obviously all up to date when it was made. Your writing 
style is an asset, because it shows entusiasm for your subject rather than 
oozing the sort of corporate PR or BS that some companies put out instead of 
support. Content is more important than style so even with any style 
continuity problems that you have now the site is well worth visiting.

If you change over to using CSS, you are almost certainly going to have to
skim through your existing pages to make sure things do not clash (or find a
way to let us help you test pages before you go live with the menu*). This
would be a perfect opportunity to do a one of styling of body text, headers
and other common elements. I would guess that as a side benifit of your menu
project you will probably have a continuity on 90 percent or so of your
existing pages.

Because this menu is providing a lot of navigation functions you might find
that a few of your linking pages seem a bit redundant, although if you are
letting people turn of the menu you might need to keep them as a backup.

I have to agree that your "forward-motion" work is the most imporant thing, 
and that redesigning old pages will obviously take away from it. However, 
you might periodically find reason to re-examine old ideas and provide 
updates on old pages to tell people what has changed since you wrote things. 
This would be a great opportunity to do any style tweaks at the same time. 
However, I think you should keep the text in the original style unless old 
advice is no longer safe to follow.

(One page where I would be very interested to see an update, or follow up 
article is this page ( http://www.grc.com/dos/drdos.htm ). Hidden in this 
informative article is a simple looking statement that ISPs can block this 
attack and that if they do it would make hacking their users a waste of 
time. It would be great to know if anything has been done about this by any 
ISPs. I've been meaning to write about this issue separately, so don't 
bother to reply to it here - I'll reply to the proper topic after I finish 
this - but it is an example of where an old idea can gain new news. Style 
tweaks can be added in at the same time if you do minor updates like this.)

* = The only way I can think to let us help you test pages for style errors
would be to create a mirror of your site at say http://test.grc.com/ and add
the menu to the entire content. Then we could all navigate around and tell
you if any pages don't work well with the new menu/CSS additions. Once you
made any tweaks you wanted to you could move the working site back to your
main URL and none of your visitors would know anything about it until it
looked perfect.

>> Your new masthead-menu design will make it much easier to
>> navigate than before. Better than that it feels easier to
>> navigate than before so a newbie is much less likely to say
>> "Agggh!" and run away.
>
> Exactly.  We receive complaints from people who would like to be
> able to find the resources we have here, and expect us to help
> them do so, rather than to make it challenging.  (Imagine that!)
> So I'm excited by the idea of putting a complete and highly
> accessible directory of the entire site at the top of every
> page.

Your menu and more importantly your search box will solve that issue. If you
are going to have advanced search somewhere on your site it might be worth
adding an "advanced" link near your search button.

The new Google Toolbar allows webmasters to provide custom buttons. *After*
you get your menu upgrade finished it *might* be worth creating a toolbar
button to allow people to use Google Toolbar to search grc.com. Once you
have that done you can add a link to your search.htm page that can install
the button. That will give users another way to surf around your website and
once made you won't need to update the button. As you can see from Google's
list of technology sites, there is not much support for Toolbar buttons yet,
so you could get in first and have a good "market share". Here are the tech
people who already have buttons:

http://www.google.com/tools/toolbar/buttons/gallery?keyword=Technology

Some sites say they are official and they get listed first (all you need to 
do to be official is host the button code at the grc.com domain). If you 
have trouble making the button you might find that one of your GRC fans can 
help you make it. The full how to guide is at this page:

http://toolbar.google.com/buttons/apis/howto_guide.html

Custom buttons currently only work in the Beta Toolbar for IE, but I'm 
*sure* support will be added for all other versions when they get updated.

>> Even if you have to leave the links at the top for non-css
>> browsers or text-browsers I'm sure you can put a inline link
>> (with style="hidden" to let you disable it) at the top of the
>> page that jumps past the menu links down to the main content.
>
> Right. And since we'll be offering some site-level customization
> through first-party cookies, non-CSS users will have the option
> of removing those long link lists from the top of every page.

Sounds good, but if you let people remove the links you might also need to
make sure people can navigate around another way. Obviously people can
already do that without the menu now, but bear in mind that when you add new
sections after the menu goes live you might need to put in secondary pages
that only get used by people who turn your menu links off. Perhaps you can
put in parallel internal links pages that duplicate the menus. You might
need to do something like that anyway to help the search engine spiders find
their way around.

I've used a lot of "mights" as I'm not entirely sure where you are going 
with this feature. If it isn't too hard for me to disable the menu, I'll try 
to kill it during your testing phase to see if I can still find pages.

Maybe your cookie thing can swap the entire menu for a link that takes 
people to a separate navigation page. You might even be able to harvest the 
links from the menus and use them to automatically generate navigation pages 
for the various parts of your website. I don't know if you could 
pre-generate pages or create them on the fly, but I think you understand 
this sort of thing better than me.

<snip>

>> I'm a little concerned that your existing pages sometimes have a
>> black area at the top ( http://www.grc.com/default.htm ) and
>> sometimes have a white area at the top
>> ( https://www.grc.com/x/ne.dll?bh0bkyd2 ). I'm sure you have
>> a reason for the two different styles but I couldn't see it.
>
> I was never able to find a logo for SpinRite that I liked
> against a white background.  It just looks so great against
> black.  And the same is true for Leaktest.  I love the creaky
> looking old dripping logo. But ShieldsUP! has always been
> against a white background, as have the majority of our
> neighborhood logos.  So ... I just do whatever works.  :)

I didn't realise you were adding the search box when I added my original 
comment, so I don't think it applies any more. I like your search tool 
better than my idea. I'll be looking forward to seeing how the different 
pages look with the new menu. In a way the various sub-styles of your 
projects add a house style of their own.

>> Unless this colour difference is supposed to signify something
>> (like all tools have mastheads that are a different colour to
>> infomation only pages) I think it might be worth using the same
>> colour for all pages and using something in or under the
>> masthead/menu bar as a cue that shows you where you are.
>
> As you probably know by now, we have the "neighborhood" button
> floating to the far left which will always contain a directory
> of the pages within the neighborhood ... and a "You are here"
> label and arrow to explain to and remind people what that's
> about.

Again my ignorance of where you were going has led me to give advice that 
isn't useful in light of where I see you are really going.

>> How about adding a clickable breadcrumb trail under the menu bar?
>> That would add navigation as well as help people remember where
>> something was.
>
> I'm familiar with the notion of a bread crumb trail.  And it's
> elegant that clicking back up the trail allows users to return
> to a higher point in the site, and also to see where they are.
> I could certainly add a facility like that.  But it seems to me
> that such a system is rendered a bit less necessary by the every
> present menuing system allows someone to go directly from
> anywhere on the site to anywhere else.  So there's no need to
> back track two levels to an index page, then see what's there
> and drill-down again.

<snip>

> You've lost me completely there David.
>
> I know nothing about this idea of pages donating rank to others.
> Have you some links I can read??

I think Milly covered page rank donation better than I could. If you don't 
think you need to use SEO then it is probably best the keep your pages as 
clean as possible and just use the menu on its own. Another bit of advice 
bites the dust, but it was there if you needed it. :-)
-- 
David Shepheard
(please reply in list as email address is fake) 

[for the unabridged version, see David Shepheard's post above]

David ...

Thanks for your great comments, thoughts, and commentary.  :)

Rather than replying to everything, I'll just pick a few for 
clarifications ...

> * = The only way I can think to let us help you test pages for
> style errors would be to create a mirror of your site at say
> http://test.grc.com/ and add the menu to the entire content.

Ah!  Since the menu is being dynamically generated by our 
server, and since we already have a cookie-based site options 
system (which has not yet been used) I'll be able to deploy the 
menuing system on our main public server and only those here who 
are interested in "turning it on" will see it.  :)


> If you are going to have advanced search somewhere on your site
> it might be worth adding an "advanced" link near your search button.

My original plan, which I mentioned a few days ago, was to have 
3 buttons:  Search, Options and Site Map.  The inter-button 
spacing was intended to show that "Options" went with "Search".  
But when I started to lay things out it quickly became clear 
that three buttons was one too many.

In fact, today I'm excited by the idea that three buttons may 
have been TWO too many! ... and that the masthead/menu system 
can be simplified and cleaned up even more with the elimination 
of the ever-in-our-face Site Map button.

And ... if you look at the prototype Home menu I've always had, 
the *1st* thing on it is "Site Map" and the 3rd thing is "Search 
with Options".

So my thinking has been along these lines from the start.  My 
current plan is to have a specific "Search With Options" page, 
and also for *every* search results page to be offering those 
options as well.  So that any visitor doesn't need to worry at 
first whether they need "options" ... but once they see the 
first results of their search they'll, at the same point, be 
presented with options for narrowing their search, etc.

Though I haven't yet focused upon them, I imagine they will wind 
up being something like Milly originally mentioned weeks ago: 
the ability to include/exclude large chunks of the site in/from 
the search, such as

[ ] General Site Content other than what's below
[ ] Security Now! Transcripts
[ ] Newsgroup Forums
[ ] TechTalk Columns

.... and whatever else makes sense.  :)

re: The google Toolbar ...

I can see that it might make sense for large news sites, Digg, 
or SlashDot.  But I doubt that GRC would be searched often 
enough to warrant its own button.


> Sounds good, but if you let people remove the links you might also
> need to make sure people can navigate around another way.

Of course.  The plan is that all of the sub-menus would be 
eliminated, but that the top-level links would persist.  Click 
on them will takes people to pages that stand-in for the sub-
menus underneath, providing some background on the "category", 
and containing links to all pages within that category.  Sort of 
a "chunk" of the global sitemap which only contains that 
category's pages.


> Maybe your cookie thing can swap the entire menu for a link
> that takes people to a separate navigation page.

Exactly.  :)

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.   Working on menuing: http://www.grc.com/menu/invitro.htm

On Wed, 5 Jul 2006 11:52:06 -0700, Steve Gibson
<news06_@_grc.com> wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see Milly's post above]
> 
> > Oh dear, we may lose you for years ;)
> > 
> > http://www.rankspirit.com/pagerankeng.php#utiliser
> > 
> > http://www.rankspirit.com/downloadprceng.php
> > 
> > http://pr.efactory.de/e-pagerank-distribution.shtml
> 
> Interesting stuff.  But I think that the fundamental principle 
> of doing good things and attracting attention, visitors, and 
> incoming links by being relevant and important remains the best 
> solution.

Absolutely!  And it will attract more of the kind of folks you
would prefer to have reading your pages.

-- 
tbl

Steve Gibson said in:<news:MPG.1f15aa351270ed3bce5@4.79.142.203>:
> [for the unabridged version, see Milly's post above]
> 
>> Oh dear, we may lose you for years ;)
>> 
>> http://www.rankspirit.com/pagerankeng.php#utiliser
>> 
>> http://www.rankspirit.com/downloadprceng.php
>> 
>> http://pr.efactory.de/e-pagerank-distribution.shtml
> 
> Interesting stuff.  But I think that the fundamental principle 
> of doing good things and attracting attention, visitors, and 
> incoming links by being relevant and important remains the best 
> solution.

I couldn't agree more.
-- 

Milly

Steve Gibson said in:<news:MPG.1f171b025e8a205fcf3@4.79.142.203>:
> So my thinking has been along these lines from the start.  My 
> current plan is to have a specific "Search With Options" page, 
> and also for *every* search results page to be offering those 
> options as well.  So that any visitor doesn't need to worry at 
> first whether they need "options" ... but once they see the 
> first results of their search they'll, at the same point, be 
> presented with options for narrowing their search, etc.
> 
> Though I haven't yet focused upon them, I imagine they will wind 
> up being something like Milly originally mentioned weeks ago: 
> the ability to include/exclude large chunks of the site in/from 
> the search, such as
> 
> [ ] General Site Content other than what's below
> [ ] Security Now! Transcripts
> [ ] Newsgroup Forums
> [ ] TechTalk Columns
> 
> ... and whatever else makes sense.  :)

I suppose you *could* also make the masthead Search button into a
dropdown form field, with the default being "Search All GRC", plus
those four (or so) dropdown options.

In theory, that adds only a down arrow to the visible presence, plus
the less neat look of a selection box. Hmmm. Efficient. 

Nevertheless, my instinct is that ultra lean is best for the
ever-present masthead. 

Maybe have a cookie option to swap in the 'power' search options,
for power users.
-- 

Milly

[for the unabridged version, see Milly's post above]

> > Interesting stuff.  But I think that the fundamental principle 
> > of doing good things and attracting attention, visitors, and 
> > incoming links by being relevant and important remains the best 
> > solution.
> 
> I couldn't agree more.

<<grin>>  Actually ... I was just quoting you.  :)

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.   Working on menuing: http://www.grc.com/menu/invitro.htm

[for the unabridged version, see Milly's post above]

> I suppose you *could* also make the masthead Search button
> into a dropdown form field, with the default being "Search
> All GRC", plus those four (or so) dropdown options.
> 
> In theory, that adds only a down arrow to the visible presence,
> plus the less neat look of a selection box. Hmmm. Efficient. 
> 
> Nevertheless, my instinct is that ultra lean is best for the
> ever-present masthead. 
> 
> Maybe have a cookie option to swap in the 'power' search
> options, for power users.

The Search Options could have a "sticky" bit to activate a drop-
down menu for the menu's Search button ... so that touching it 
opens a list of options for what to search.  It could just use 
all of our existing menuing tech.

But ... we need to see whether the results from a search are 
overwhelming in the first place.  The whole thing might not be 
needed.  Especially is the Search results are categorized by 
which section of the site they are from, making it easy to just 
use what you want from the (presumably) not overwhelming 
results.

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.   Working on menuing: http://www.grc.com/menu/invitro.htm

Steve Gibson wrote:

>>* = The only way I can think to let us help you test pages for
>>style errors would be to create a mirror of your site at say
>>http://test.grc.com/ and add the menu to the entire content.

> Ah!  Since the menu is being dynamically generated by our 
> server, and since we already have a cookie-based site options 
> system (which has not yet been used) I'll be able to deploy the 
> menuing system on our main public server and only those here who 
> are interested in "turning it on" will see it.  :)

Well I guess that will cut me out at least, since I have, and will
continue to have all GRC cookies explicitly blocked.

-- 
____________                                                       _
,_ _  _| _  _|_   _ ,__   +-+-+-+-+-+- Go Hamster Go! -+-+-+-+-+-+  |
| | |(_|(/_(_| |o(_)|(_|  Get PGP key at http://www.mctech.org/pgp  |
mc at mctech dot org __|  The Paranoid Cynic             MicroChip _|

MicroChip said in:<news:e8mblr$2lcf$1@news.grc.com>:
> Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
>>>* = The only way I can think to let us help you test pages for
>>>style errors would be to create a mirror of your site at say
>>>http://test.grc.com/ and add the menu to the entire content.
> 
>> Ah!  Since the menu is being dynamically generated by our 
>> server, and since we already have a cookie-based site options 
>> system (which has not yet been used) I'll be able to deploy the 
>> menuing system on our main public server and only those here who 
>> are interested in "turning it on" will see it.  :)
> 
> Well I guess that will cut me out at least, since I have, and will
> continue to have all GRC cookies explicitly blocked.

Amputated nose, meet spited face ;)
-- 

Milly

[for the unabridged version, see MicroChip's post above]

> Well I guess that will cut me out at least, since I have,
> and will continue to have all GRC cookies explicitly blocked.

Yep, though only during the pre-release phase.  I very much 
appreciate all the feedback you've been willing and able to 
provide all along.  And once the menu goes public it obviously 
won't need an explicit enabling cookie, so you'll be back online 
with us then.  :)

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.   Working on menuing: http://www.grc.com/menu/invitro.htm

"MicroChip" <reply.to.newsgroup@mctech.org> wrote in message 
news:e8mblr$2lcf$1@news.grc.com...
> Steve Gibson wrote:
>
>>>* = The only way I can think to let us help you test pages for
>>>style errors would be to create a mirror of your site at say
>>>http://test.grc.com/ and add the menu to the entire content.
>
>> Ah!  Since the menu is being dynamically generated by our
>> server, and since we already have a cookie-based site options
>> system (which has not yet been used) I'll be able to deploy the
>> menuing system on our main public server and only those here who
>> are interested in "turning it on" will see it.  :)
>
> Well I guess that will cut me out at least, since I have, and will
> continue to have all GRC cookies explicitly blocked.

MC,

Do you block all FP session-only cookies at all sites?

-- 
Robert
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://www.grc.com/groups/techtalk:155486

Steve Gibson said in:<news:MPG.1f183dbcbc44ec00d02@4.79.142.203>:
> [for the unabridged version, see Milly's post above]
> 
>>> Interesting stuff.  But I think that the fundamental principle 
>>> of doing good things and attracting attention, visitors, and 
>>> incoming links by being relevant and important remains the best 
>>> solution.
>> 
>> I couldn't agree more.
> 
> <<grin>>  Actually ... I was just quoting you.  :)

Oh, crikey. You mean this from, gulp, more than two years(!) ago? :-

,------------ [quote] 
  From: Milly <@.....>
  Subject: Re: Search Engine Search Results
  Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 23:15:12 +0100
  Message-ID: <13mgx4ry8c4xl$.dlg@0O.0O>
  Xref: news.grc.com grc.spinrite.dev:9304
  
  > Ah, I see what you mean.  By being clear about our message, as 
  > opposed to all over the map and unfocused, reviewers and linkers 
  > will also tend to be more coherent about their descriptions, and 
  > may help to "naturally" raise our standing for such searches.
  
  Yes, [...]
  
  But "naturally" is a key word, in my view. SEO tricks are temporary,
  high-maintenance and just a bit dubious (or at least unGRCish, like
  a site full of banner ads). I firmly believe you should concentrate
  (as always) on getting the pages/content right for *people*, which
  is one of your major strengths. If it works well for visitors
  (customers and reviewers), it'll work well for Google. To modernise
  and extend the old maxim: build a better mouse-trap; tell the world;
  remove unnecessary obstacles; and the world and Google will beat a
  path to your door.
'-------- [end quote]

Whaddya know, I *still* think that :)

Of course there's some overlap between SEO and "remove unnecessary
obstacles", but I think designing internal links for their utility
as PageRank sluice gates is a distinct drift from those fundamental
principles.
-- 

Milly

In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see MicroChip's post above]
> 
>> Well I guess that will cut me out at least, since I have,
>> and will continue to have all GRC cookies explicitly blocked.
 
> Yep, though only during the pre-release phase.  I very much 
> appreciate all the feedback you've been willing and able to 
> provide all along.  And once the menu goes public it obviously 
> won't need an explicit enabling cookie, so you'll be back online 
> with us then.  :)

Unless you _only_ provide optional CSS via permanent cookies...and 
the the user wants neither the cookie nor the default CSS...

Mark V wrote:

> In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
> 
>>[for the unabridged version, see MicroChip's post above]
>>
>>
>>>Well I guess that will cut me out at least, since I have,
>>>and will continue to have all GRC cookies explicitly blocked.

>>Yep, though only during the pre-release phase.  I very much 
>>appreciate all the feedback you've been willing and able to 
>>provide all along.  And once the menu goes public it obviously 
>>won't need an explicit enabling cookie, so you'll be back online 
>>with us then.  :)

> Unless you _only_ provide optional CSS via permanent cookies...and 
> the the user wants neither the cookie nor the default CSS...

No mark. He's suggesting that during the testing phase on the regular
web pages that rather than confuse the random visitor with the menu
heading stuff which will still be in development, that he will have the
headers only appear for those who specificly ellect to have a cookie set
to do so DURING the development phase. This would not remain the case
once developement of the menu stuff has completed.

-- 
____________                                                       _
,_ _  _| _  _|_   _ ,__   +-+-+-+-+-+- Go Hamster Go! -+-+-+-+-+-+  |
| | |(_|(/_(_| |o(_)|(_|  Get PGP key at http://www.mctech.org/pgp  |
mc at mctech dot org __|  The Paranoid Cynic             MicroChip _|

[for the unabridged version, see MicroChip's post above]

> This would not remain the case once developement of the menu
> stuff has completed.

Exactly.  :)

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.   Working on menuing: http://www.grc.com/menu/invitro.htm

Robert Wycoff wrote:

> MC,
> 
> Do you block all FP session-only cookies at all sites?

Nope, besides what my spam/garbage filters get, only GRC. Thats an
extension of mine and several others' protest about the non-opt-in
nature of the not-quite-tracking cookie system of Steve's.

-- 
____________                                                       _
,_ _  _| _  _|_   _ ,__   +-+-+-+-+-+- Go Hamster Go! -+-+-+-+-+-+  |
| | |(_|(/_(_| |o(_)|(_|  Get PGP key at http://www.mctech.org/pgp  |
mc at mctech dot org __|  The Paranoid Cynic             MicroChip _|

Milly wrote:

> MicroChip said in:<news:e8mblr$2lcf$1@news.grc.com>:

>>Well I guess that will cut me out at least, since I have, and will
>>continue to have all GRC cookies explicitly blocked.

> Amputated nose, meet spited face ;)

Milly, as far as im concerned, I'm not losing anything out of the deal,
not even that little bit of privacy, not even that small little bit of
control over my own browsing.

-- 
____________                                                       _
,_ _  _| _  _|_   _ ,__   +-+-+-+-+-+- Go Hamster Go! -+-+-+-+-+-+  |
| | |(_|(/_(_| |o(_)|(_|  Get PGP key at http://www.mctech.org/pgp  |
mc at mctech dot org __|  The Paranoid Cynic             MicroChip _|

"Steve Gibson" <news06_@_grc.com> wrote:
>> * = The only way I can think to let us help you test pages for
>> style errors would be to create a mirror of your site at say
>> http://test.grc.com/ and add the menu to the entire content.
>
> Ah!  Since the menu is being dynamically generated by our
> server, and since we already have a cookie-based site options
> system (which has not yet been used) I'll be able to deploy the
> menuing system on our main public server and only those here who
> are interested in "turning it on" will see it.  :)

Do we use the existing cookie tool on your site or do we have to manually 
create a cookie in something like notepad?

You later said the cookie is only for testing, so how do we get rid of it 
when you go live and we don't need it anymore?

> re: The google Toolbar ...
>
> I can see that it might make sense for large news sites, Digg,
> or SlashDot.  But I doubt that GRC would be searched often
> enough to warrant its own button.

It might be worth it just for the newsgroups. I cocked up recently trying to 
delete a duplicate message and only managed to get rid of because someone 
else helped me. If you don't make a button, you may well find that someone 
else does.

....Actually, I'm waiting for the first person who manages to make a spyware 
toolbar button!

>> Maybe your cookie thing can swap the entire menu for a link
>> that takes people to a separate navigation page.
>
> Exactly.  :)

This sounds great and answers tons of my quiries.
-- 
David Shepheard
(please reply in list as email address is fake) 

[for the unabridged version, see David Shepheard's post above]

> Do we use the existing cookie tool on your site or do we have
> to manually create a cookie in something like notepad?

Oh, no ... the SiteOptions page would be used to simply set the 
option:

http://www.grc.com/siteoptions.htm

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.   Working on menuing: http://www.grc.com/menu/invitro.htm

In grc.news.feedback MicroChip wrote:

> Mark V wrote:
> 
>> In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:
>>>[for the unabridged version, see MicroChip's post above]
 
>>>>Well I guess that will cut me out at least, since I have,
>>>>and will continue to have all GRC cookies explicitly blocked.
> 
>>>Yep, though only during the pre-release phase.  I very much 
[ ]

>> Unless you _only_ provide optional CSS via permanent
>> cookies...and the the user wants neither the cookie nor the
>> default CSS... 
  
> No mark. He's suggesting that during the testing phase on the
> regular web pages that rather than confuse the random visitor
> with the menu heading stuff which will still be in development,
> that he will have the headers only appear for those who
> specificly ellect to have a cookie set to do so DURING the
> development phase. This would not remain the case once
> developement of the menu stuff has completed. 

Thanks, I missed this point.  Or maybe there is a different point 
that remains.  Time will tell.

In grc.news.feedback MicroChip wrote:

> Robert Wycoff wrote:
> 
>> MC,
>> 
>> Do you block all FP session-only cookies at all sites?
> 
> Nope, besides what my spam/garbage filters get, only GRC. Thats an
> extension of mine and several others' protest about the non-opt-in
> nature of the not-quite-tracking cookie system of Steve's.

Exactly!  :)

In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see David Shepheard's post above]
> 
>> Do we use the existing cookie tool on your site or do we have
>> to manually create a cookie in something like notepad?
> 
> Oh, no ... the SiteOptions page would be used to simply set the 
> option:
> 
> http://www.grc.com/siteoptions.htm

I thought you had decided to renumber that as 0-31...as to be proper 
and technical without really confusing anyone in practice.

MicroChip said in:<news:e8mm5t$30qt$1@news.grc.com>:
> Milly wrote:
> 
>> MicroChip said in:<news:e8mblr$2lcf$1@news.grc.com>:
> 
>>>Well I guess that will cut me out at least, since I have, and will
>>>continue to have all GRC cookies explicitly blocked.
> 
>> Amputated nose, meet spited face ;)
> 
> Milly, as far as im concerned, I'm not losing anything out of the deal,
> not even that little bit of privacy, not even that small little bit of
> control over my own browsing.

Perhaps a little bit of fun? Anyway, it looks like it's moot now.
-- 

Milly

Milly wrote:

> MicroChip said in:<news:e8mm5t$30qt$1@news.grc.com>:
> 
>>Milly wrote:
>>
>>
>>>MicroChip said in:<news:e8mblr$2lcf$1@news.grc.com>:
>>
>>>>Well I guess that will cut me out at least, since I have, and will
>>>>continue to have all GRC cookies explicitly blocked.
>>
>>>Amputated nose, meet spited face ;)
>>
>>Milly, as far as im concerned, I'm not losing anything out of the deal,
>>not even that little bit of privacy, not even that small little bit of
>>control over my own browsing.
> 
> 
> Perhaps a little bit of fun? Anyway, it looks like it's moot now.

When you elect to stick to strong principles you get used to going
without some things. I grew up that way, so it bothers me not. Besides,
I can always go down to the local library to check out the latest
developments, and come back home to comment.

-- 
____________                                                       _
,_ _  _| _  _|_   _ ,__   +-+-+-+-+-+- Go Hamster Go! -+-+-+-+-+-+  |
| | |(_|(/_(_| |o(_)|(_|  Get PGP key at http://www.mctech.org/pgp  |
mc at mctech dot org __|  The Paranoid Cynic             MicroChip _|

MicroChip said in:<news:e8ohkv$1glg$1@news.grc.com>:
> Milly wrote:
>> MicroChip said in:<news:e8mm5t$30qt$1@news.grc.com>:
>>>Milly wrote:
>>>>MicroChip said in:<news:e8mblr$2lcf$1@news.grc.com>:
>>>>>Well I guess that will cut me out at least, since I have, and will
>>>>>continue to have all GRC cookies explicitly blocked.
>>>
>>>>Amputated nose, meet spited face ;)
>>>
>>>Milly, as far as im concerned, I'm not losing anything out of the deal,
>>>not even that little bit of privacy, not even that small little bit of
>>>control over my own browsing.
>> 
>> Perhaps a little bit of fun? Anyway, it looks like it's moot now.
> 
> When you elect to stick to strong principles you get used to going
> without some things. I grew up that way, so it bothers me not. Besides,
> I can always go down to the local library to check out the latest
> developments, and come back home to comment.

I can understand not using GRC cookie-dependent features in protest
about GRC having cookie-dependent features, as a matter of
principle. I don't really understand how working around it in
practice, whether by local cookie housekeeping or by using a
different PC, is still a matter of principle, rather than, well, a
practical workaround.

Not that I have any criticism at all of any such practical
workaround. As the Opera folks are saying these days: your web, your
choice :)
-- 

Milly

[for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]

> > http://www.grc.com/siteoptions.htm
> 
> I thought you had decided to renumber that as 0-31...as to
> be proper and technical without really confusing anyone in
> practice.

Nope.

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.   Working on menuing: http://www.grc.com/menu/invitro.htm

Steve Gibson wrote:
> [for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]
> 
>>> http://www.grc.com/siteoptions.htm
>> I thought you had decided to renumber that as 0-31...as to
>> be proper and technical without really confusing anyone in
>> practice.
> 
> Nope.
> 

Speaking of that page, I just went to it and tried to change my 
settings to include the first two items.  When I submit it, they 
don't seem to "take" as the page is presented again and my 
selections are not reflected.  It says it finds a valid cookie, 
so the problem isn't likely in my cookie settings.  Firefox on 
Ubuntu Dapper.

-- 
Bob Trevithick

[for the unabridged version, see Bob Trevithick's post above]

> Speaking of that page, I just went to it and tried to change
> my settings to include the first two items.  When I submit it,
> they don't seem to "take" as the page is presented again and my 
> selections are not reflected.  It says it finds a valid cookie, 
> so the problem isn't likely in my cookie settings.  Firefox on 
> Ubuntu Dapper.

Right.  I broke that during many of the design iterations toward 
the end of the development cycle. Since we weren't using it yet, 
and I didn't know what form it would eventually take, I just 
left it broken until we start using it.

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.   Working on menuing: http://www.grc.com/menu/invitro.htm

Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]

>> I thought you had decided to renumber that as 0-31...

> Nope.

I fully support Mark V's suggestion. Since bits 0 & 1 already have labels
anyway and thus number zero does not appear on that page of yours, you are
not inflicting a trauma on any of your less technical visitors by
renumbering the remaining, to be assigned, bits 2-31 instead of 3-32.
FWIW ;=)

-- 
Ninho

Ninho wrote:
> Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
>> [for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]
> 
>>> I thought you had decided to renumber that as 0-31...
> 
>> Nope.
> 
> I fully support Mark V's suggestion. Since bits 0 & 1 already have labels
> anyway and thus number zero does not appear on that page of yours, you are
> not inflicting a trauma on any of your less technical visitors by
> renumbering the remaining, to be assigned, bits 2-31 instead of 3-32.
> FWIW ;=)
> 

I'd have to add a "me too" to this one, Steve.  Your site is 
about teaching people about computers, so the technical details 
really should, imho, be correct in everything they see at GRC. 
People will quickly come to understand that zero is a valid 
number, and shouldn't be confused by it.  It will simply stick in 
the back of their mind.

-- 
Bob Trevithick

[For the unexcerpted original, see above]
Ninho wrote ...

> Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
> > [for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]
> 
> >> I thought you had decided to renumber that as 0-31...
> 
> > Nope.
> 
> I fully support Mark V's suggestion. Since bits 0 & 1 already have labels
> anyway and thus number zero does not appear on that page of yours, you are
> not inflicting a trauma on any of your less technical visitors by
> renumbering the remaining, to be assigned, bits 2-31 instead of 3-32.
> FWIW ;=)

.... or just change "Bit" to "Crumb".  I believe that crumbs use a base-
one numbering scheme?  So, we'd have Crumb 03 ... Crumb 32.

There now ... ;)

-- 

Terry //

Steve Gibson wrote:
> [for the unabridged version, see Bob Trevithick's post above]
> 
>> Speaking of that page, I just went to it and tried to change
>> my settings to include the first two items.  When I submit it,
>> they don't seem to "take" as the page is presented again and my 
>> selections are not reflected.  It says it finds a valid cookie, 
>> so the problem isn't likely in my cookie settings.  Firefox on 
>> Ubuntu Dapper.
> 
> Right.  I broke that during many of the design iterations toward 
> the end of the development cycle. Since we weren't using it yet, 
> and I didn't know what form it would eventually take, I just 
> left it broken until we start using it.

On the same subject, the http://www.grc.com/cookies/stats.htm 
page might need a tweak also.  Every day it reports that "84.60% 
of yesterday's GRC visitors allowed third-party cookies."  Maybe 
that's correct, but my guess is that it would vary by at least 
one hundredth of a percent from time to time.  :)

I see that the browser totals do change by reloading the page, 
and are obviously behaving as specified.. i.e., "in real-time."

Judy something to note when you get back to working on the 
cookies project.  :)

BTW, I know that page isn't viewable by the public yet, but I 
wonder if you mind my sharing it with a few folks to show them 
that they can't get away with just coding for IE anymore?

-- 
Bob Trevithick

[for the unabridged version, see Bob Trevithick's post above]

> On the same subject, the http://www.grc.com/cookies/stats.htm 
> page might need a tweak also.  Every day it reports that "84.60% 
> of yesterday's GRC visitors allowed third-party cookies."  Maybe 
> that's correct, but my guess is that it would vary by at least 
> one hundredth of a percent from time to time.  :)

Right Bob.  The charts are not yet dynamic at all.  I got the 
code working to create them, but there was no need for them to 
be fully functional at this point, so they're not.  Their 
numbers represent a snapshot at the point I finished that work.


> I see that the browser totals do change by reloading the page, 
> and are obviously behaving as specified.. i.e., "in real-time."

Yep.  :)


> Judy something to note when you get back to working on the 
> cookies project.  :)

Right.  What I have at this point is a large array of new 
technologies that are nailed down and working.  Once I have a 
place for them to live -- thus the new menuing system -- I'll 
return and pull everything together.  :)


> BTW, I know that page isn't viewable by the public yet, but I 
> wonder if you mind my sharing it with a few folks to show them 
> that they can't get away with just coding for IE anymore?

It was a wake up call for me as well.  You are welcome to share 
the existence of the page.

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.   Working on menuing: http://www.grc.com/menu/invitro.htm

[for the unabridged version, see Terry L. Webb's post above]

> ... or just change "Bit" to "Crumb".  I believe that crumbs
> use a base-one numbering scheme?  So, we'd have Crumb 03 ...
> Crumb 32.
> 
> There now ... ;)

Perfect solution!  <g>

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Steve.   Working on menuing: http://www.grc.com/menu/invitro.htm

Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see Terry L. Webb's post above]
> 
> 
>>... or just change "Bit" to "Crumb".  I believe that crumbs
>>use a base-one numbering scheme?  So, we'd have Crumb 03 ...
>>Crumb 32.
>>
>>There now ... ;)

> Perfect solution!  <g>

Wouldnt that be 'crumby' solution ? =) =)

-- 
____________                                                       _
,_ _  _| _  _|_   _ ,__   +-+-+-+-+-+- Go Hamster Go! -+-+-+-+-+-+  |
| | |(_|(/_(_| |o(_)|(_|  Get PGP key at http://www.mctech.org/pgp  |
mc at mctech dot org __|  The Paranoid Cynic             MicroChip _|

In grc.news.feedback MicroChip wrote:

> Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
>> [for the unabridged version, see Terry L. Webb's post above]
>> 
>> 
>>>... or just change "Bit" to "Crumb".  I believe that crumbs
>>>use a base-one numbering scheme?  So, we'd have Crumb 03 ...
>>>Crumb 32.

Very Hansel and Gretle of you!  <G>

>>>There now ... ;)
> 
>> Perfect solution!  <g>
> 
> Wouldnt that be 'crumby' solution ? =) =)

Crumby or not <G> there is no objection here to counting "crumbs" 
from "1".  LOL   Still, zero crumbs is generally accepted as "best".  
Oh my, what if Grace had found cookie crumbs instead of a moth?  :-O

"Bob Trevithick" <bobt@rft.invalid> wrote:
> Ninho wrote:
>> Steve Gibson wrote:
>>> [for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]
>>>> I thought you had decided to renumber that as 0-31...
>>
>>> Nope.
>>
>> I fully support Mark V's suggestion. Since bits 0 & 1 already have labels
>> anyway and thus number zero does not appear on that page of yours, you
>> are
>> not inflicting a trauma on any of your less technical visitors by
>> renumbering the remaining, to be assigned, bits 2-31 instead of 3-32.
>> FWIW ;=)
>>
>
> I'd have to add a "me too" to this one, Steve.  Your site is about
> teaching people about computers, so the technical details really should,
> imho, be correct in everything they see at GRC. People will quickly come
> to understand that zero is a valid number, and shouldn't be confused by
> it.  It will simply stick in the back of their mind.

I don't use cookies on my own website and I'm a bit confused about what you
all are talking about.

Are these "Bit"s supposed to be "Binary digITs"? If they are then people
would expect them to all have values that were powers of 2 (1, 2, 4, 8, 16,
32, 64, 128, 256, etc). You only ever get numbers that add up to one less
than these when you have a byte (or word) and set all of the bits in that
byte to 1. And you only ever get 0 in binary if all of the bits in a byte
(or word) are set to 0.

It sounds like Steve is just counting off (numbering off) the 32 bits in a
32-bit-byte (or 32-bit-word for those people who hate anything that isn't 8
bits being called a byte). If he is doing that then I don't see a problem
with going from 1-32 instead of from 0-31. I've tried searching the internet
to see if there is an agreed standard on this, but I can't even find an
agreed standard on the size of a byte, let alone a standard for numbering
off individual bits. People that number things like houses in a street
usually start with 1 rather than 0, so I would suggest that, unless there is
an industry standard out there that someone can quote, there isn't really a
problem with Steve counting from 1 to 32.

However, having said that, I think that the "Update your GRC site cookie"
section is very ambigous. Here is the text I'm talking about:

>Only a few option bit settings are in use at this time, though any may be
>set or reset for experimental purposes. It is probably a good idea not to
>leave any undefined bits set to "on", since they would take effect in the
>future when those bit flags started being used.

The first sentence uses the terms "set" and "reset". The second sentence 
switches from "set" to "on" and implies that I need to make sure I don't 
leave any of the bit blank or they will automatically be turned "on". 
However, the interface below this features a series of tick boxes. You can 
click on the box to add a tick or click again to remove the tick.

Logically, I would expect a blank tick box to be automatically defined as 
off (or zero). There is no way to "make sure you don't leave an option 
undefined" unless users are *supposed* to click each box *twice* (to add and 
then remove the tick). The way that this page is currently set up is totally 
confusing. I would suggest that  the way that the cookie is set is changed 
so that options are *automatically* set to off unless/until people turn them 
on (by adding a tick). Once turned on this page should allow people to come 
back later to toggle settings off and on, so I would hope that the cookie 
settings were examined when the pages were loaded so that bits that were 
already set automatically had the ticks displayed in them (and if the tick 
was removed the bit was set back to zero when the person hit the Submit 
Updated Cookie button).

(I would have experimented with this page to see how it behaved when I 
actually set bits and refreshed the page, however my concern over "leaving 
things undefined" means that I don't currently trust it to not give me a 
"test cookie" that lets me set all bits to "on" but doesn't let me turn them 
back "off" afterwards. I don't fancy having to hunt around in my system 
files to manually delete an accidentally mangled cookie.)
-- 
David Shepheard
(please reply in list as email address is fake)