Everyone,

As you may have been noticing, we are having an increasing problem 
with newsgroup SPAM postings across all of our groups.  We were 
hit again today across the entire server, and considerable time 
was consumed cleaning up the debris.  

This is time completely wasted and it's frustrating for me because 
this is easily prevented simply by having everyone here -- who 
wishes to post their own articles -- switch their browser to an 
AUTHENTICATED LOGON from non-authenticated.

Please note that almost everyone here has already done this, since 
this is simply our long-standing CECIL-ID system which allows 
users to cancel their own postings.

Since no fly-by spammer connecting to our server will know that 
their logon username and password need to be identical to enable 
posting, this simple change will prevent SPAM posts from being 
accepted since their logon will be non-authenticated ... so my 
staff and I can stop wasting our time with something so annoying 
and SO easily prevented!  :)

As you all know, I am currently investing heavily in adding a 
number of significant new features to our newsgroup system -- 
including a full textual search, the ability to browse much more 
conveniently, and post through the web interface.  Once all that's 
in place, I will be announcing these new features on our home page 
(which more than 10,000 people are now monitoring for changes) and 
also notifying everyone who has signed up to receive our eMail 
notices (more than three quarters of a million users. As a 
consequence, I fully expect a great many more people to be using 
these groups and for them to be drawing a lot more attention.

		... and this will draw even more SPAM.

Switching your usage over to an authenticated connection will only 
take a second, and it is extremely simple.  As I said above, it is 
simply the existing "CECIL" system that a great many people are 
already using to enable the cancellation of their own postings.

ALL YOU NEED TO DO is change your browser's LOGON settings from 
"No Password Required" (or whatever your system calls it) to 
"Logon Using" ... and pick a unique passphrase for yourself which 
no one else will be likely to have chosen. You then use that 
single Passphrase as *BOTH* your logon username and password.  
They *MUST* be identical.

Then simply reconnect ... and you'll be ready to go.

Thanks for helping us to keep these groups clean and spam free!

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve.

In grc.news Steve Gibson wrote:

> Everyone,
> 
> As you may have been noticing, we are having an increasing problem 
> with newsgroup SPAM postings across all of our groups.  We were 
> hit again today across the entire server, and considerable time 
> was consumed cleaning up the debris.

Ouch!  
 
[ ]
> wishes to post their own articles -- switch their browser to an 
> AUTHENTICATED LOGON from non-authenticated.
> 
> Please note that almost everyone here has already done this, since 
> this is simply our long-standing CECIL-ID system which allows 
> users to cancel their own postings.

[ ]

> Switching your usage over to an authenticated connection will only 
> take a second, and it is extremely simple.  As I said above, it is 
> simply the existing "CECIL" system that a great many people are 
> already using to enable the cancellation of their own postings.
> 
> ALL YOU NEED TO DO is change your browser's LOGON settings from 
> "No Password Required" (or whatever your system calls it) to 
> "Logon Using" ... and pick a unique passphrase for yourself which 
> no one else will be likely to have chosen. You then use that 
> single Passphrase as *BOTH* your logon username and password.  
> They *MUST* be identical.

No offense intended but this link:
   http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#cancel
has a nice explanation and easy to understand description for users 
that want a "guide".

In message <Xns95A5CE6D2D9D9z9zzaQ2btw@69.28.135.241>, Mark V 
<notvalid@nul.invalid> writes
>In grc.news Steve Gibson wrote:

[..]

>> Switching your usage over to an authenticated connection will only
>> take a second, and it is extremely simple.  As I said above, it is
>> simply the existing "CECIL" system that a great many people are
>> already using to enable the cancellation of their own postings.
>>
>> ALL YOU NEED TO DO is change your browser's LOGON settings from
>> "No Password Required" (or whatever your system calls it) to
>> "Logon Using" ... and pick a unique passphrase for yourself which
>> no one else will be likely to have chosen. You then use that
>> single Passphrase as *BOTH* your logon username and password.
>> They *MUST* be identical.
>
>No offense intended but this link:
>   http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#cancel
>has a nice explanation and easy to understand description for users
>that want a "guide".

Yep, it might even be worth copying [with modifications as you see fit 
of course :-)] into the discussions page replacing the outdated 
information.

And perhaps stress [maybe even enforce?] the advisability of complexity 
in that passphrase?

-- 
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets:
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm
 From invalid, Reply To works.
Kevin A.

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:10:15, Steve Gibson wrote:

>ALL YOU NEED TO DO

Yup *we* know - but your NoRegrets page doesn't. :(

Please either update it, or just get it to point to Milly's page. :)

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

In grc.news.feedback Kevin A. wrote:

> In message <Xns95A5CE6D2D9D9z9zzaQ2btw@69.28.135.241>, Mark V 
> <notvalid@nul.invalid> writes
>>In grc.news Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
> [..]
> 
>>> Switching your usage over to an authenticated connection will
>>> only take a second, and it is extremely simple.  As I said
[ ]

>>No offense intended but this link:
>>   http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#cancel
>>has a nice explanation and easy to understand description for
>>users that want a "guide".
> 
> Yep, it might even be worth copying [with modifications as you see
> fit of course :-)] into the discussions page replacing the
> outdated information.
> 
> And perhaps stress [maybe even enforce?] the advisability of
> complexity in that passphrase?

And add in new NAME Rules (soon as final)

In Steve Gibson's grc.news - Steve Gibson wrote:

> I am currently investing heavily in adding a number of significant
> new features to our newsgroup system 
>

Would you consider honoring Expires headers?

(I send mail to support@ Tue, 16 Nov)

-- 
Regards,
Guy

<URL:http://guysalias.batcave.net/pgpkeys.txt> [Updated: 4/29/2004]

[for the unabridged version, see Guy's post above]

> > I am currently investing heavily in adding a number
> > of significant new features to our newsgroup system 
> 
> Would you consider honoring Expires headers?
> 
> (I send mail to support@ Tue, 16 Nov)

I saw your note and have it marked for response but I haven't 
(obviously) replied yet.  The problem with globally honoring 
Expires is that it breaks threads that are hung off the self-
expiring article.  I think that Expiring articles make more sense 
in contexts other than ours where the articles being submitted
to most groups are inherently intended for long-term archival 
retrieval.  In the few groups where this is not the case -- 
grc.test and grc.news.latestversions -- we have well-known
and explicit article expiration.

Why was it that you wanted to control the expiration of your
own articles?

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve.

In grc.news.feedback Jim Crowther wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:10:15, Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
>>ALL YOU NEED TO DO
> 
> Yup *we* know - but your NoRegrets page doesn't. :(
> 
> Please either update it, or just get it to point to Milly's page. :)

And thinking Steve will need to post ANNOUNCMENT in each of the groups 
for good coverage. 

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:50:27, Guy wrote:

>In Steve Gibson's grc.news - Steve Gibson wrote:
>
>> I am currently investing heavily in adding a number of significant
>> new features to our newsgroup system
>>
>
>Would you consider honoring Expires headers?
>
>(I send mail to support@ Tue, 16 Nov)
>

What's the point?  They wouldn't be honoured by all the other archives 
of these (or any other) groups.

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

ok steve i'll give it a try.
this is a test message post.
"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:cnjhe9$2bjk$11@news.grc.com...
> Everyone,
>
>

[for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]

> And thinking Steve will need to post ANNOUNCMENT
> in each of the groups for good coverage.

I wanted to get the ball rolling immediately after today's 
repeated SPAM occurrence.  I'll make SURE that the error notice 
the user receives takes them to a page with CLEAR help.  :)

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see asoukup's post above]

> ok steve i'll give it a try.
> this is a test message post.

It worked fine.  And you can see your "CECIL-ID" out at the end
of your article's "Poster:" header, bracketed by the '{' and '}'.

(Though I guess I should have asked everyone to try their tests 
over in "grc.test"!  :)

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve.

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:12:51, asoukup wrote:

>ok steve i'll give it a try.

Hole in one. :)

Well done.

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:16:55, Steve Gibson wrote:

>I'll make SURE that the error notice
>the user receives takes them to a page with CLEAR help.  :)

I'm glad that's your intention.  I don't know of a way you could bring 
it to the attention of some offline readers whose users don't run 
de-bugging logs - but no matter. <g>

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:18:35, Steve Gibson wrote:

>[for the unabridged version, see asoukup's post above]
>
>> ok steve i'll give it a try.
>> this is a test message post.
>
>It worked fine.  And you can see your "CECIL-ID" out at the end
>of your article's "Poster:" header, bracketed by the '{' and '}'.
>
>(Though I guess I should have asked everyone to try their tests
>over in "grc.test"!  :)

For something like this, not so bad to let tests come to this thread at 
least, for those who aren't sure about the .test group.  Next week, no 
worries.

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

Steve Gibson wrote:

> ALL YOU NEED TO DO is change your browser's LOGON settings from 
> "No Password Required" (or whatever your system calls it) to 
> "Logon Using" ... and pick a unique passphrase for yourself which 
> no one else will be likely to have chosen. You then use that 
> single Passphrase as *BOTH* your logon username and password.  
> They *MUST* be identical.

Okay, I've never had to use a password for news groups. I've been using 
Netscape for them and all's been well - but I don't see where to enter 
the passowrd or the username for a server. (In fact, I don't see where 
to enter them for anything, but I assume that this logon will be only 
for the GRC server.)

Help is required, but I will delay until you stop laughing. Then a 
private or public reply is welcome - your choice. (Yup, the address is 
real.)

Mike
-- 
mrichter@cpl.net
http://www.mrichter.com/

Mark V wrote:
> In grc.news Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
> Ouch!  
>  
> No offense intended but this link:
>    http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#cancel
> has a nice explanation and easy to understand description for users 
> that want a "guide".
> 

is this thing working?

In message <cnk075$5k1$1@news.grc.com>, poo_gimmal 
<user@localhost.invalid> writes
>Mark V wrote:
>> In grc.news Steve Gibson wrote:
>>  Ouch!     No offense intended but this link:
>>    http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#cancel
>> has a nice explanation and easy to understand description for users 
>>that want a "guide".
>>
>
>is this thing working?

Yep.

Poster: [68.203.212.244] (19 Nov 2004 05:27:01 GMT) 
{VjOdpgqWhakhc84fkgt6APBoLwA}

And you could now cancel it if you wanted, which would leave my 
follow-up hanging out here by itself.

The test group is pretty busy tonight. :-)
-- 
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets:
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm
 From invalid, Reply To works.
Kevin A.

Mike Richter wrote in message
news://news.grc.com/cnjtnh$42c$1@news.grc.com

Hi Mike,

> Okay, I've never had to use a password for news groups. I've been using
> Netscape for them and all's been well - but I don't see where to enter
> the passowrd or the username for a server. (In fact, I don't see where
> to enter them for anything, but I assume that this logon will be only
> for the GRC server.)

> Help is required, but I will delay until you stop laughing. Then a
> private or public reply is welcome - your choice. (Yup, the address is
> real.)

See, if this helps
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#cancel

There are some notes for Netscape users as well.
Best place to try it out is the grc.test group.

-- 
Best Regards
HiMan

Steve,

> ALL YOU NEED TO DO is change your browser's LOGON settings from 
> "No Password Required" (or whatever your system calls it) to 
> "Logon Using" ... and pick a unique passphrase for yourself which 
> no one else will be likely to have chosen. You then use that 
> single Passphrase as *BOTH* your logon username and password.  
> They *MUST* be identical.
>
I'm already using your CECIL system, so do I need to change to the 
above directions....or leave mine as is?

BTW; some of us are unable to post at all, due to some glitch in your 
new news server. Doesn't recognize CST, or EST (etc) time designations. 
We therefore get this.....

"Gibson connection started Fri, 19-Nov-2004 01:59:00
ERR Posting failed, 441 This posting has been 
rejected by the system because the date and time it 
carries is more than eight hours ahead of the system's 
current time. Please correct your computer's clock then 
re-submit this blocked posting. Thank you. (nntppost 
#183)"

I'm only able to post here by setting my PC to a zone ahead of mine, 
such as Cairo, Egypt! I'm in CST zone.
--  

     Jim Lilly
     news.virtual-access.org
     Using - Virtual Access(OLR), ZAP 5.5, & WinXP Pro w/SP2

Steve Gibson wrote:

> Why was it that you wanted to control the expiration of your own articles? 
> 

For your convenience here is a copy:
 
 Received: from 192.108.102.207 (HELO smtp2-send.myrealbox.com)
 Subject: GRC Newsgroups ~ Expires Headers
 From: "Guy"
 To: support
 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:31:23 +0000
 X-Sender: GuysAlias
 Message-ID: <1100583083.286d00dcGuysAlias@myrealbox.com>
 
 Hello Steve(or whomever),
 
 Do you think it would be a good idea to honor Expires Headers on your server? 
 I run a routine to make postings to grc.news.latestversions - see below.
 
 The postings are sent with a Expires header set for one week as a indicator
 of the recommended retention time of the posting. 
 I'm not quite sure if the retention on that group is six months
 or more(I can pull some headers as far back as Mar 2003).
 
 Thanks,
 Guy
 
 
 
 Subject: F-PROT DEFs Update - SIGN/2  created 2 November 2004
 From: F-Prot Def Updater <f-prot-def-updater@[127.0.0.1]>
 Date: Tue 02 Nov 2004 02:37:03
 Expires: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 08:36:53 GMT
 Newsgroups: grc.news.latestversions
 Message-ID: <f-prot-def-updater-0002453312.02$36$53@[127.0.0.1]>

-- 

In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Jim Crowther wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:50:27, Guy wrote:
> 
>> Would you consider honoring Expires headers?
>> 
> 
> What's the point?  They wouldn't be honoured by all the other
> archives of these (or any other) groups.
> 

Please see:

Subject: Re: EVERYONE! -- Please switch to authenticated logon ...
From: Guy 
Date: Fri 19 Nov 2004 02:08:57
Newsgroups: grc.news.feedback
Message-ID: <95A6$15DD1.8121$2E284CEEC009E394A9D7@127.0.0.1>
Article: 52565

-- 
Regards,
Guy

<URL:http://guysalias.batcave.net/pgpkeys.txt> [Updated: 4/29/2004]

In message <VA.0000146b.01b8574b@hotpants.hotmail.com>, A1PCfixer
<a1pcfixer@hotpants.hotmail.com> writes
>Steve,
>
>> ALL YOU NEED TO DO is change your browser's LOGON settings from
>> "No Password Required" (or whatever your system calls it) to
>> "Logon Using" ... and pick a unique passphrase for yourself which
>> no one else will be likely to have chosen. You then use that
>> single Passphrase as *BOTH* your logon username and password.
>> They *MUST* be identical.
>>
>I'm already using your CECIL system, so do I need to change to the
>above directions....or leave mine as is?

Nope, you should be OK. You show up as an authenticated user which is
what counts.

>BTW; some of us are unable to post at all, due to some glitch in your
>new news server. Doesn't recognize CST, or EST (etc) time designations.
>We therefore get this.....
>
>"Gibson connection started Fri, 19-Nov-2004 01:59:00
>ERR Posting failed, 441 This posting has been
>rejected by the system because the date and time it
>carries is more than eight hours ahead of the system's
>current time. Please correct your computer's clock then
>re-submit this blocked posting. Thank you. (nntppost
>#183)"

There's a thread around here somewhere about that [1]. Steve made an
adjustment that might have helped and plans to do something else at some
point.

But IIRC it's because of the way that your newsreader is expressing the
time zone. The other poster having that trouble was going to update his
reader. The fix [again IIRC] is to have the newsreader use "GMT -0700"
or whatever is appropriate. Your newsreader was mentioned in the thread
as using what is apparently an obsolete format.

>I'm only able to post here by setting my PC to a zone ahead of mine,
>such as Cairo, Egypt! I'm in CST zone.

Ouch. That doesn't sound right, there must be something else going on.

        [1] There's 8 posts about it starting with

From: vista <vista@telocity.net>
Newsgroups: grc.news.feedback
Subject: Re: WELCOME to our new NEWS server!
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:49:47 -0500
Message-ID: <cndlu0$2mi9$1@news.grc.com>
References: <MPG.1bf9fe1a5f66e86c98c488@69.28.135.241>
Poster: [68.223.194.193] (16 Nov 2004 19:54:41 GMT)
{yD1b1iCsDYHEzcDsXaHWkxApdiE}

And here's Steve's response at the end of them:

------- Forwarded message follows -------
From: Steve Gibson <support@grc.com>
Newsgroups: grc.news.feedback
Subject: Re: WELCOME to our new NEWS server!
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:13:22 -0800
Message-ID: <cnecci$2bjk$5@news.grc.com>
Poster: [204.1.226.232] (17 Nov 2004 02:17:55 GMT) {jaP2HBjK7QSoGC0jptTZwcqPtwU}
User-Agent: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30

[for the unabridged version, see vista's post above]

Here's the whole story on the change ...

"Once upon a time" we had no checking of article dates and every
so often someone would post something with a date far in the
future.  Their aging post would be dated-sorted down at the very
end of the threads list ... hanging there persistently since it
was still "in the future".

We used to complain to people, asking them to "fix their clocks".

When I switched over to Unix/Linux/INN server it had an option for
disallowing posts which were more than xx days out of date.  I set
this to 20 (which was plenty) and that was the end of it.

However ... this 20-day restriction applies to all postings, even
internal system posts for cancelling older articles.  The 20-day
limit was a problem when we were going back over old threads and
wanting to perform some after-the-fact cleanups of irrelevant
junk.

The 20-day expiration was also a problem (a big problem) when I
was recently cloning the older server's article database to the
new server.  I wanted to maintain the article's original dating
which meant that the new server needed to have any restrictions
removed.

Finally ... I added some code -- relying upon a supposedly RFC-
compatible Date and Time library <<sigh>> -- to notify users when
the dates of their proposed article postings were either more than
8 hours in the future (whoops!) or more than five days in the
past.  That's where we are now.

But ... it seems that this little pre-packaged library of code
isn't quite as RFC compliant as I was hoping.   So I'll either
whip up one of my own or work out something else.

Thanks for the heads-up everyone.



-- 
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets:
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm
From invalid, Reply To works.
Kevin A.

Mike Richter wrote:
> Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
>> ALL YOU NEED TO DO is change your browser's LOGON settings from "No 
>> Password Required" (or whatever your system calls it) to "Logon Using" 
>> ... and pick a unique passphrase for yourself which no one else will 
>> be likely to have chosen. You then use that single Passphrase as 
>> *BOTH* your logon username and password.  They *MUST* be identical.
> 
> 
> Okay, I've never had to use a password for news groups. I've been using 
> Netscape for them and all's been well - but I don't see where to enter 
> the passowrd or the username for a server. (In fact, I don't see where 
> to enter them for anything, but I assume that this logon will be only 
> for the GRC server.)
> 

I have senior moments as well where I can't find the **** settings... 
but if you navigate to Edit> Mail & NNewsgroups Account Settings> and 
Click on Server Settings for the GRC Newsgroup. Click on "Always request 
authentication when connecting to this server".


-- 
Le Flake
from deepest, darkest Qu�bec

In grc.news.feedback Guy wrote:

> Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
>> Why was it that you wanted to control the expiration of your own
>> articles? 
>> 
> 
> For your convenience here is a copy:
>  
[ ]
>  The postings are sent with a Expires header set for one week as a
>  indicator of the recommended retention time of the posting. 
>  I'm not quite sure if the retention on that group is six months
>  or more(I can pull some headers as far back as Mar 2003).

I thought that that .latestversions was going to expire by date like 
..test  Either that is not correct or Steve never implemented it.  
Coming up on 9 months since group created. Seems to me 6 months (or 
even less) would be appropriate for "latest".

Steve, can you clarify this please?
Guy, I see your point but OTOH it's only server storage "wasted".  
<G>

"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:cnjhe9$2bjk$11@news.grc.com...

> ALL YOU NEED TO DO is change your browser's LOGON settings from
> "No Password Required" (or whatever your system calls it) to
> "Logon Using" ... and pick a unique passphrase for yourself which
> no one else will be likely to have chosen. You then use that
> single Passphrase as *BOTH* your logon username and password.
> They *MUST* be identical.

Steve,

I wonder if Milly's page will help everyone, since yours hasn't been updated
yet.

http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#cancel

-- 
Robert
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://news.grc.com/news.exe?cmd=article&group=grc.techtalk&item=116183

"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:cnjhe9$2bjk$11@news.grc.com...
> Everyone,
>
> As you may have been noticing, we are having an increasing problem
> with newsgroup SPAM postings across all of our groups.  We were
> hit again today across the entire server, and considerable time
> was consumed cleaning up the debris.

It appears as if someone is trying to get in their "spam" before you
implement the block.

Path: news.grc.com!.
From: "Neateye"
Newsgroups: grc.news.feedback
Subject: Gouranga
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:58:30 +0000
Lines: 9
Sender: Neateye
Message-ID:
Poster: [82.152.52.11] (19 Nov 2004 13:00:37 GMT) Non-Authenticated User
X-No-Archive: yes
Archive: no
User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-Original-Reader: 204.1.226.235
Xref: news.grc.com grc.news.feedback:52570

Call out Gouranga be happy!!!
Gouranga Gouranga Gouranga ....
That which brings the highest happiness!!


-- 
Robert
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://news.grc.com/news.exe?cmd=article&group=grc.techtalk&item=116183

"Robert Wycoff" <rwycoff@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
news:cnksmk$jtk$1@news.grc.com...

> Poster: [82.152.52.11] (19 Nov 2004 13:00:37 GMT) Non-Authenticated User

Network Whois record
Queried whois.ripe.net with "82.152.52.11"...

% This is the RIPE Whois tertiary server.
% The objects are in RPSL format.
%
% Rights restricted by copyright.
% See http://www.ripe.net/db/copyright.html

inetnum:      82.152.0.0 - 82.153.255.255
org:          ORG-EN5-RIPE
netname:      UK-ECLIPSE-20031110
descr:        Eclipse Networking
descr:        PROVIDER Local Registry
country:      GB
admin-c:      ML272-RIPE
tech-c:       JB15805-RIPE
tech-c:       GH9237-RIPE
tech-c:       JT5873-RIPE
status:       ALLOCATED PA
mnt-by:       RIPE-NCC-HM-MNT
mnt-lower:    ML272-RIPE-MNT
mnt-routes:   ML272-RIPE-MNT
notify:       mark@eclipse.net.uk
changed:      hostmaster@ripe.net 20031110
source:       RIPE

route:        82.152.0.0/15
descr:        Eclipse Networking Ltd.
origin:       AS12513
notify:       as-guardian@eclipse.net.uk
mnt-by:       ECLINET-NMC
changed:      jim@eclipse.net.uk 20040114
source:       RIPE

organisation: ORG-EN5-RIPE
org-name:     Eclipse Networking
org-type:     LIR
address:      Eclipse Networking
address:      Portland House
address:      Longbrook Street
address:      Exeter EX4 6AB
address:      Devon
address:      United Kingdom
phone:        +44 1392 202345
fax-no:       +44 1392 202346
e-mail:       hostmaster@eclipse.net.uk
admin-c:      ML272-RIPE
admin-c:      JB15805-RIPE
admin-c:      GH9237-RIPE
admin-c:      JT5873-RIPE
mnt-ref:      ML272-RIPE-MNT
mnt-ref:      RIPE-NCC-HM-MNT
mnt-by:       RIPE-NCC-HM-MNT
changed:      hostmaster@ripe.net 20040415
source:       RIPE

person:       Mark Lang
address:      c/o Eclipse Internet,
address:      Portland House, Longbrook Street,
address:      Exeter, Devon EX4 6AB
address:      GB
phone:        +44 1392 333309
fax-no:       +44 1392 333319
nic-hdl:      ML272-RIPE
notify:       mark@eclipse.net.uk
changed:      mark@eclipse.net.uk 19981113
changed:      james@eclipse.net.uk 20010904
source:       RIPE

person:       James Tyrrell
address:      c/o Eclipse Internet,
address:      Portland House, Longbrook Street,
address:      Exeter, Devon EX4 6AB
address:      GB
remarks:      Please send spam & abuse complaints to abuse@eclipse.net.uk
phone:        +44 1392 333309
fax-no:       +44 1392 333319
e-mail:       jim@eclipse.net.uk
nic-hdl:      JT5873-RIPE
notify:       jim@eclipse.net.uk
source:       RIPE
changed:      jim@eclipse.net.uk 20020819

person:       James Bailey
address:      c/o Eclipse Internet,
address:      Portland House, Longbrook Street,
address:      Exeter, Devon EX4 6AB
address:      GB
phone:        +44 1392 333309
fax-no:       +44 1392 333319
e-mail:       james@eclipse.net.uk
nic-hdl:      JB15805-RIPE
notify:       james@eclipse.net.uk
changed:      james@eclipse.net.uk 20010904
source:       RIPE

person:       Gary Holder
address:      c/o Eclipse Internet,
address:      Portland House, Longbrook Street,
address:      Exeter, Devon EX4 6AB
address:      GB
phone:        +44 1392 333309
fax-no:       +44 1392 333319
e-mail:       gary.holder@eclipse.net.uk
nic-hdl:      GH9237-RIPE
notify:       gary.holder@eclipse.net.uk
changed:      james@eclipse.net.uk 20010904
source:       RIPE
-- RobertGRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No
Regretshttp://news.grc.com/news.exe?cmd=article&group=grc.techtalk&item=1161
83

In grc.news.feedback Robert  Wycoff wrote:

> "Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
> news:cnjhe9$2bjk$11@news.grc.com...
> 
>> ALL YOU NEED TO DO is change your browser's LOGON settings from
[ ]
> 
> Steve,
> 
> I wonder if Milly's page will help everyone, since yours hasn't
> been updated yet.

Still?  Amazing.

> 
> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#cancel
> 

In article <cnkop3$hmh$1@news.grc.com> Le Flake wrote:
> Mike Richter wrote:
> >
> > Okay, I've never had to use a password for news groups. I've been using
> > Netscape for them and all's been well - but I don't see where to enter
> > the passowrd or the username for a server. (In fact, I don't see where
> > to enter them for anything, but I assume that this logon will be only
> > for the GRC server.)
> >
> 
> I have senior moments as well where I can't find the **** settings...
> but if you navigate to Edit> Mail & NNewsgroups Account Settings> and
> Click on Server Settings for the GRC Newsgroup. Click on "Always request
> authentication when connecting to this server".
> 
Exactly.  The same goes for Netscape 4x and Mozilla.  I've never
played with Thunderbird but I suspect it's the same or similar.

-- 
Alan
The universal principle of energy:
Energy has an objective, independent physical existence and exists 
in the absence of matter, but matter is entirely dependent upon
energy and cannot exist in the absence of energy.  - A.T. Williams
< http://www.cox-internet.com/hermital/book/holoprt2-1.htm >

[for the unabridged version, see Robert  Wycoff's post above]

> It appears as if someone is trying to get in their "spam" before you
> implement the block.
> 
> Path: news.grc.com!.
> From: "Neateye"
> Newsgroups: grc.news.feedback
> Subject: Gouranga

http://www.juju.org/archives/2003/04/06/call-out-gouranga-be-happy

"Call out Gouranga be happy?
Sunday, April 6th, 2003 at 6:09 pm by Tony

I got the weirdest email on April 1st that I only just noticed. 
Spamassassin only just barely missed it (4.2 out of 5). Though is it 
spam? At least it�s not asking me if I want to increase my manhood."

-- 
Sired, Squired, Hired, RETIRED.

"hermital" <hermital@cox-internet.com> wrote in message
news:419DFDEE.5996781E@cox-internet.com...
> In article <cnkop3$hmh$1@news.grc.com> Le Flake wrote:
> > Mike Richter wrote:
> > >
> >
> > I have senior moments as well where I can't find the **** settings...
> > but if you navigate to Edit> Mail & NNewsgroups Account Settings> and
> > Click on Server Settings for the GRC Newsgroup. Click on "Always request
> > authentication when connecting to this server".
> >
I am one of those ignorant users who had no clue how to comply with Steve's
order. And the "no regrets" site gave no help. So I just spent 30 minutes
clicking through all possible menues in my Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1123
and found this :

Tools-Accounts.. -Properties-server- mark box This server requires me to log
on - mark box Log on using Secure Password Authentication.

Is this the correct way? If not am I left out in the wilderness and goodbye
to grc.news, the water hole of the webb? Sometimes all you gurus out there
forget how difficult it can be. I build my own computers etc but this....
;-).

Leif Lagerstedt

Right click on the server name (GRC? or whatever) in the folder view and
click on "properties"
On the "server" tab you will see a checkbox that says:   "This server
requires me to logon" - make sure that is ON and then put the same
pass-phrase in both the "account name" and "password" fields. At that point,
I would shut down OE and restart it so that it get's it's ducks in a row.

HTH




"Leif Lagerstedt" <lagerstedt@bahnhof.se> wrote in message
news:cnl3i5$oce$11@news.grc.com...
> I am one of those ignorant users who had no clue how to comply with
Steve's
> order. And the "no regrets" site gave no help. So I just spent 30 minutes
> clicking through all possible menues in my Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1123
> and found this :
>
> Tools-Accounts.. -Properties-server- mark box This server requires me to
log
> on - mark box Log on using Secure Password Authentication.
>
> Is this the correct way? If not am I left out in the wilderness and
goodbye
> to grc.news, the water hole of the webb? Sometimes all you gurus out there
> forget how difficult it can be. I build my own computers etc but this....
> ;-).
>
> Leif Lagerstedt
>
>
>
>

"Leif Lagerstedt" <lagerstedt@bahnhof.se> wrote in message
news:cnl3i5$oce$11@news.grc.com...

> Tools-Accounts.. -Properties-server- mark box This server requires me to
log
> on - mark box Log on using Secure Password Authentication.

Uncheck that box.

> Is this the correct way? If not am I left out in the wilderness and
goodbye
> to grc.news, the water hole of the webb? Sometimes all you gurus out there
> forget how difficult it can be. I build my own computers etc but this....
> ;-).

You have the right tab.  Just follow these directions.

http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#cancel

      1    Choose one long and unique passphrase of up to 30 characters.

      2   Then place it in each of your newsreader's username and password
fields.

      3   Finally, set your newsreader to always logon using them. That's
all there is to it.

Be sure to check the "remember this password" box.

-- 
Robert
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://news.grc.com/news.exe?cmd=article&group=grc.techtalk&item=116183


-- 
Robert
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://news.grc.com/news.exe?cmd=article&group=grc.techtalk&item=116183

"Robert Wycoff" <rwycoff@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
news:cnl4fb$otu$1@news.grc.com...
> "Leif Lagerstedt" <lagerstedt@bahnhof.se> wrote in message
> news:cnl3i5$oce$11@news.grc.com...
>
> You have the right tab.  Just follow these directions.
>
> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#cancel
>
>       1    Choose one long and unique passphrase of up to 30 characters.
>
>       2   Then place it in each of your newsreader's username and password
> fields.
>
>       3   Finally, set your newsreader to always logon using them. That's
> all there is to it.
>
> Be sure to check the "remember this password" box.
>
> -- 
> Robert
> GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
> http://news.grc.com/news.exe?cmd=article&group=grc.techtalk&item=116183

Thanks for the help.  I have just followed the instructions. Now we shall
see if I can post or not! Does it matter that I do not use my old address
any more? The one that can be seen in the header above.

Leif Lagerstedt
>
>
> -- 
>>
>

Kerry Liles wrote:
> Right click on the server name (GRC? or whatever) in the folder view and
> click on "properties"
> On the "server" tab you will see a checkbox that says:   "This server
> requires me to logon" - make sure that is ON and then put the same
> pass-phrase in both the "account name" and "password" fields. At that point,
> I would shut down OE and restart it so that it get's it's ducks in a row.
> 
> HTH

All well and good in OE, but as I said originally I'm in Netscape. I 
tried following Millie's page, but get no place to put the password. I 
get the request for authentication, but no password.

Mike
-- 
mrichter@cpl.net
http://www.mrichter.com/

In grc.news.feedback Leif Lagerstedt wrote:

> 
> "Robert Wycoff" <rwycoff@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
> news:cnl4fb$otu$1@news.grc.com...
>> "Leif Lagerstedt" <lagerstedt@bahnhof.se> wrote in message
>> news:cnl3i5$oce$11@news.grc.com...
>>
>> You have the right tab.  Just follow these directions.
>>
>> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#cancel
[ ]

> Thanks for the help.  I have just followed the instructions. Now
> we shall see if I can post or not! Does it matter that I do not
> use my old address any more? The one that can be seen in the
> header above. 

The passphrase<->username you use to generate the CECIL-ID when 
posting is not connected to any other information you provide like: 
Name, Email, User Agent, Posters IP or others.

You can alter any of those as necessary without disturbing the CECIL 
system.

Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Mike Richter say:

> Kerry Liles wrote:
>> Right click on the server name (GRC? or whatever) in the folder view and
>> click on "properties"
>> On the "server" tab you will see a checkbox that says:   "This server
>> requires me to logon" - make sure that is ON and then put the same
>> pass-phrase in both the "account name" and "password" fields. At that point,
>> I would shut down OE and restart it so that it get's it's ducks in a row.
>> 
>> HTH
> 
> All well and good in OE, but as I said originally I'm in Netscape. I 
> tried following Millie's page, but get no place to put the password. I 
> get the request for authentication, but no password.

Mike, did you try this part of Milly's write-up?

,quote>
N.B. Mozilla|Netscape users may have a little trouble getting that
setting to stick. From Version 1.2.1 you can use Edit/Mail &
Newsgroups Account Settings/(GRC account)/Server Settings, and check
"Always request authentication when connecting to this server". For
older versions you may need to edit your Preferences by exiting
Mozilla|Netscape (including Quick Launch) first, then go to your
profile folder, back up your prefs.js file just in case, and create
(or edit) the user.js file in Notepad by adding this line ...

         user_pref("mail.server.server1.always_authenticate", true);

(Replacing the server number with the number that Mozilla has assigned
to the GRC server: look for that in prefs.js). Then next time you
connect to news.grc.com you should be prompted for a username and a
password. Alas, due to a bug, you may also be prompted when entering
each newsgroup - but you can use Password Manager to remember that for
you. Or upgrade to a newer version... 
</quote>

http://imilly.com/noregrets.htm#cancel

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm

Steve Gibson wrote:

> switch their browser to an
> AUTHENTICATED LOGON from non-authenticated.

Hi Steve, done and thanks for the post. Until now I've been too lazy to do
this. :) Thanks again for these NGs and your website.

"Mark V" <notvalid@nul.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns95A67E0848308z9zzaQ2btw@69.28.135.241...
> In grc.news.feedback Leif Lagerstedt wrote:
>
> >
> > "Robert Wycoff" <rwycoff@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
> > news:cnl4fb$otu$1@news.grc.com...
> >> "Leif Lagerstedt" <lagerstedt@bahnhof.se> wrote in message
> >> news:cnl3i5$oce$11@news.grc.com...
> >>
> >> You have the right tab.  Just follow these directions.
> >>
> >> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#cancel
> [ ]
>
> > Thanks for the help.  I have just followed the instructions. Now
> > we shall see if I can post or not! Does it matter that I do not
> > use my old address any more? The one that can be seen in the
> > header above.
>
> The passphrase<->username you use to generate the CECIL-ID when
> posting is not connected to any other information you provide like:
> Name, Email, User Agent, Posters IP or others.
>
> You can alter any of those as necessary without disturbing the CECIL
> system.

But .......

You won't be able to cancel any posts that use the old CECIL id once you
create a new one by changing the userid/passphrase.

-- 
Robert
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://news.grc.com/news.exe?cmd=article&group=grc.techtalk&item=116183

"Leif Lagerstedt" <lagerstedt@bahnhof.se> wrote in message
news:cnla35$t0f$11@news.grc.com...

> Thanks for the help.  I have just followed the instructions. Now we shall
> see if I can post or not! Does it matter that I do not use my old address
> any more? The one that can be seen in the header above.

As long as you don't change the userid/passphrase, it will always work on
posts that have the CECIL as shown here in your header.

Poster: [83.226.85.34] (19 Nov 2004 17:21:42 GMT)
{rcTdf3Kw2UCRRDAI/VGbVrOsSOE}

{rcTdf3Kw2UCRRDAI/VGbVrOsSOE} is your CECIL.  If you use more than one
computer, you can use the same userid/passphrase on each one and you will be
able to cancel your posts from any of them.

Go to grc.test, post a message, then after it appears in your newsreader
(OE), choose Message>Cancel Message, and if the news server doesn't reject
the message, you know you are able to cancel your posts.

-- 
Robert
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://news.grc.com/news.exe?cmd=article&group=grc.techtalk&item=116183

In grc.news.feedback Robert  Wycoff wrote:

> "Mark V" <notvalid@nul.invalid> wrote in message
> news:Xns95A67E0848308z9zzaQ2btw@69.28.135.241...
>> In grc.news.feedback Leif Lagerstedt wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > "Robert Wycoff" <rwycoff@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
>> > news:cnl4fb$otu$1@news.grc.com...
>> >> "Leif Lagerstedt" <lagerstedt@bahnhof.se> wrote in message
>> >> news:cnl3i5$oce$11@news.grc.com...
[ ]
>> >> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#cancel
>> [ ]
>>
>> > Thanks for the help.  I have just followed the instructions.
>> > Now we shall see if I can post or not! Does it matter that I do
>> > not use my old address any more? The one that can be seen in
>> > the header above.
 
>> The passphrase<->username you use to generate the CECIL-ID when
>> posting is not connected to any other information you provide
>> like: Name, Email, User Agent, Posters IP or others.
>>
>> You can alter any of those as necessary without disturbing the
>> CECIL system.
> 
> But .......
> 
> You won't be able to cancel any posts that use the old CECIL id
> once you create a new one by changing the userid/passphrase.

Then either I was unclear (probable) or you mis-understand me.

Leif asked (I thought) if changing the e-mail address interfered with 
CECIL system.

I replied (or intended to) that once CECIL Client-side strings 
 eg passphrase and username
were entered and used to post, that thereafter no alterations to user 
posted information such as posting name, email address et al.  would 
disturb the No Regrets cancellation system.

At no time did I intend to indicate that changing the "CECIL 
strings" (passphrase, username) would be without consequence.

Come back

[for the unabridged version, see poo_gimmal's post above]

> is this thing working?

Yes poo.  Good job.  Welcome to the land of CECIL, the ability to 
cancel your own mis-postings, and helping us to insulate our news 
server from unwanted SPAM postings.

(We were hit again last night after I asked everyone to switch 
over to authenticated logons ... so it appears that we are seeing 
the start of an annoying trend.)

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve.

"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:cnjhe9$2bjk$11@news.grc.com...
<snip>
> ALL YOU NEED TO DO is change your browser's LOGON settings from
> "No Password Required" (or whatever your system calls it) to
> "Logon Using" ... and pick a unique passphrase for yourself which
> no one else will be likely to have chosen. You then use that
> single Passphrase as *BOTH* your logon username and password.
> They *MUST* be identical.
>
> Then simply reconnect ... and you'll be ready to go.
>
> Thanks for helping us to keep these groups clean and spam free!

I'm trying this.  If it works, peachy.  If not, then you won't even see
this, probably.  :-)
-- 
-- 73 DE Tom Rutherford, N8EUJ, Burton, MI
"She said it was either her or the ham radio.  Over."
(Reply-To address may be spam-resistant.)

Steve Gibson wrote:

> Everyone,
> 
> As you may have been noticing, we are having an increasing problem
> with newsgroup SPAM postings across all of our groups.  We were
> hit again today across the entire server, and considerable time
> was consumed cleaning up the debris.

*wince*

If you have the CPU cycles to spare it would be possible to install POPFile
(or another learning filter, eg CRM114 or bogofilter/spambayes) and train
it up. It is possible to pipe messages into these filters, and they all
have varying degrees of trainability. Messages tagged as spam could be
'held' for review, or give a beep somewhere. If trained on the existing
message base (having received a couple spams for counter-training) this
type of filter should perform quite well and quickly.

Of course, that is a LOT of CPU cycles given the volume here :(

Something like this is probably more of a project than you are looking for
right now, though.

Regards,
Sam
-- 
 11:13:09 up 7 days,  5:35,  2 users,  load average: 0.13, 0.18, 0.27

"Sam Schinke" <sschinke@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:cnlj4j$140n$1@news.grc.com...
> Steve Gibson wrote:
>
> > Everyone,
> >
> > As you may have been noticing, we are having an increasing problem
> > with newsgroup SPAM postings across all of our groups.  We were
> > hit again today across the entire server, and considerable time
> > was consumed cleaning up the debris.
>
> *wince*
>
> If you have the CPU cycles to spare it would be possible to install
POPFile
> (or another learning filter, eg CRM114 or bogofilter/spambayes) and train
> it up. It is possible to pipe messages into these filters, and they all
> have varying degrees of trainability. Messages tagged as spam could be
> 'held' for review, or give a beep somewhere. If trained on the existing
> message base (having received a couple spams for counter-training) this
> type of filter should perform quite well and quickly.

Run POPFile against news posts?

-- 
Robert
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://news.grc.com/news.exe?cmd=article&group=grc.techtalk&item=116183

[for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]

> I thought that that .latestversions was going to expire by date
> like .test  Either that is not correct or Steve never implemented
> it.  Coming up on 9 months since group created. Seems to me 6
> months (or even less) would be appropriate for "latest".
> 
> Steve, can you clarify this please?
> Guy, I see your point but OTOH it's only server storage "wasted".

Posts to grc.test are set to expire after 5 days.

Posts to grc.news.latestversions are set to expire after 90 days.

.... but these expirations are based upon the timestamp of the 
article's file itself.  The "cloning" process I used to duplicate 
the new server from the old one "reset" all of the article's 
postings to the date of the cloning.

So, at that point, ANY articles which were up to 90 days old would 
have been "given new life" by being moved into the new server.

One of the things on my "to do" list is to read every single 
article on the new server and reset its file timestamp to match 
its internal Date: header.  I need to do this so that the "age" 
that will be shown in the web-browser views will be correct.
So this will be cleaned up before long.  :)

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve.

In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]
> 
>> I thought that that .latestversions was going to expire by date
>> like .test  Either that is not correct or Steve never implemented
[ ]
>> Steve, can you clarify this please?
>> Guy, I see your point but OTOH it's only server storage "wasted".
> 
> Posts to grc.test are set to expire after 5 days.
> 
> Posts to grc.news.latestversions are set to expire after 90 days.
> 
> ... but these expirations are based upon the timestamp of the 
> article's file itself.  The "cloning" process I used to duplicate 
> the new server from the old one "reset" all of the article's 
> postings to the date of the cloning.
[ ]

> One of the things on my "to do" list is to read every single 
> article on the new server and reset its file timestamp to match 
> its internal Date: header.  I need to do this so that the "age" 
> that will be shown in the web-browser views will be correct.
> So this will be cleaned up before long.  :)

Thanks for the technical explanation. (we love that)

Did you locate (or write) a suitable Date Conversion library in your 
"spare time"?  


-- 
GRC Newsgroups/Guides:  http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#contents

In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see Guy's post above]
>  
>> Would you consider honoring Expires headers?
> 
> The problem with globally honoring Expires is that it breaks
> threads that are hung off the self- expiring article. 
>

Threads break when one cancels a article.

Few, I'm sure a number very close to zero, users have clients capable 
of implementing a Expires Header. A even smaller number of those users 
would have the knowledge to implement such function.

Of course my preference would be to also use the Supersedes Header.



-- 
Regards,
Guy

<URL:http://guysalias.batcave.net/pgpkeys.txt> [Updated: 4/29/2004]

In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Mark V wrote:

> Guy, I see your point but OTOH it's only server storage "wasted".
> 

The information is obsolete and has been superseded.
IOW it is a "waste" to download.

-- 
Regards,
Guy

<URL:http://guysalias.batcave.net/pgpkeys.txt> [Updated: 4/29/2004]

In message <95A6$9F686.EF93$2E284CEEC009E394A9D7@127.0.0.1>, Guy
<Use-Reply-To-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes
>In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Steve Gibson wrote:
>
>> [for the unabridged version, see Guy's post above]
>>
>>> Would you consider honoring Expires headers?
>>
>> The problem with globally honoring Expires is that it breaks
>> threads that are hung off the self- expiring article.
>>
>
>Threads break when one cancels a article.
>
>Few, I'm sure a number very close to zero, users have clients capable
>of implementing a Expires Header. A even smaller number of those users
>would have the knowledge to implement such function.
>
>Of course my preference would be to also use the Supersedes Header.

An extra step for you, but how about canceling your previous post and
putting up a new one? It wouldn't have any effect on my newsreader since
once I have an article it stays in my local database until _I_ [1] do
something about it, regardless of cancels or server expiration. But it
would keep new people from downloading an article of yours that you
think is no longer useful. :-)

        [1] Or my newsreader, which expires local articles on a per
        newsgroup schedule which I can change.

-- 
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets:
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm
From invalid, Reply To works.
Kevin A.

In article <cnlgvm$t8p$6@news.grc.com>, Steve Gibson says...
> (We were hit again last night after I asked everyone to switch 
> over to authenticated logons ... so it appears that we are seeing 
> the start of an annoying trend.)

Any theories about why, Steve?

-- 
Bob Trevithick

Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Guy say:

> In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
>> [for the unabridged version, see Guy's post above]
>>  
>>> Would you consider honoring Expires headers?
>> 
>> The problem with globally honoring Expires is that it breaks
>> threads that are hung off the self- expiring article. 
> 
> Threads break when one cancels a article.
> 
> Few, I'm sure a number very close to zero, users have clients capable 
> of implementing a Expires Header. A even smaller number of those users 
> would have the knowledge to implement such function.

Really? Even poor old OE can post an Expires: header, albeit not very
conveniently, making your second point.
 
> Of course my preference would be to also use the Supersedes Header.

That would be useful...

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm

In grc.news.feedback Guy wrote:

> In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Mark V wrote:
> 
>> Guy, I see your point but OTOH it's only server storage "wasted".
>> 
> 
> The information is obsolete and has been superseded.
> IOW it is a "waste" to download.
> 

Ok.  I'll buy that.
A solution (in part) is to auto-cancel them using No Regrets.
I don't know exactly how to do that at the moment, but would interested 
academically.  Would you consider starting a .techtalk thread?  I 
imagine there are some regulars that already have scripted schemes that 
might suffice.

In article <cnlahc$tb3$1@news.grc.com> Mike Richter wrote:
> 
> All well and good in OE, but as I said originally I'm in Netscape. I
> tried following Millie's page, but get no place to put the password. I
> get the request for authentication, but no password.
> 
Hi Mike,

Please read the posts from Le Flake and myself upthread.  He's using
NS 7.2 and described the exact process you need to follow.  I merely
confirmed it. :)

Keep on keeping on.

-- 
Alan
The universal principle of energy:
Energy has an objective, independent physical existence and exists 
in the absence of matter, but matter is entirely dependent upon
energy and cannot exist in the absence of energy.  - A.T. Williams
< http://www.cox-internet.com/hermital/book/holoprt2-1.htm >

Robert  Wycoff wrote:
> "Sam Schinke" <sschinke@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
> news:cnlj4j$140n$1@news.grc.com...
>> If you have the CPU cycles to spare it would be possible to install
> POPFile
>> (or another learning filter, eg CRM114 or bogofilter/spambayes) and train
>> it up. It is possible to pipe messages into these filters, and they all
>> have varying degrees of trainability. Messages tagged as spam could be
>> 'held' for review, or give a beep somewhere. If trained on the existing
>> message base (having received a couple spams for counter-training) this
>> type of filter should perform quite well and quickly.
> 
> Run POPFile against news posts?

Sure, why not? POPFile does have a (somewhat neglected by me, I'm afraid)
NNTP filtering proxy, and news posts _are_ structured per the same RFC's as
mail messages (RFCs 822, 2822, 2045-2049). 

There are also a few different ways to 'pipe' a message to POPFile, which is
how I have KMail set up to filter mail. Piping is actually
protocol-independent (though it does require a mail client or a server that
supports piping).

Unfortunately filtering NNTP messages at the client level is a bit clumsy
given the volume and the (usual) updating mechanism of obtaining only the
headers (or summary) information for populating the message tree, with
bodies (containing information neccessary for filtering) retrieved later.
But I could imagine a POPFile install that gradually learns what posts are
interesting or even topical for broad categories (such as news servers or
newsgroups).

Regards,
Sam
-- 
 14:22:20 up 7 days,  8:45,  4 users,  load average: 0.57, 0.68, 0.67

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:40:13, Guy wrote:

>Threads break when one cancels a article.

They shouldn't...

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Jim Crowther wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:40:13, Guy wrote:
> 
>> Threads break when one cancels a article.
> 
> They shouldn't...
> 

To the same affect as a article which expires prior to local policy.

-- 
Regards,
Guy

<URL:http://guysalias.batcave.net/pgpkeys.txt> [Updated: 4/29/2004]

In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Kevin A. wrote:

>> Of course my preference would be to also use the Supersedes Header.
> 
> An extra step for you, but how about canceling your previous post and
> putting up a new one?
>

The postings at issue are script generated.

Example:

    Subject: F-PROT DEFs Update
    From: F-Prot Def Updater
    Newsgroups: grc.news.latestversions
    

With the Supersedes Header the old article should be deleted(cancelled) 
and the new article inserted atomatically by the server software.

I can simply keep the old article Message-ID and insert it as the 
Supersedes Header in the new aricle.

-- 
Regards,
Guy

<URL:http://guysalias.batcave.net/pgpkeys.txt> [Updated: 4/29/2004]

In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Mark V wrote:

> In grc.news.feedback Guy wrote:
> 
>> In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Mark V wrote:
>> 
>>> Guy, I see your point but OTOH it's only server storage
>>> "wasted". 
>>> 
>> 
>> The information is obsolete and has been superseded.
>> IOW it is a "waste" to download.
>> 
> 
> Ok.  I'll buy that.
> A solution (in part) is to auto-cancel them using No Regrets.
> I don't know exactly how to do that at the moment, but would
> interested academically.  
>

Either I keep a database of Message-IDs or Xpat the server for them 
when attempt to issue a batch cancel

> Would you consider starting a .techtalk thread?  
>
> I imagine there are some regulars that already have
> scripted schemes that might suffice.
>

I'll think about it a little then go over there(1-2 days?).

Server honoring Supersedes Header would do all "automagically".

-- 
Regards,
Guy

<URL:http://guysalias.batcave.net/pgpkeys.txt> [Updated: 4/29/2004]

In grc.news.feedback Guy wrote:

> In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Mark V wrote:
> 
>> In grc.news.feedback Guy wrote:
>> 
>>> In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Mark V wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Guy, I see your point but OTOH it's only server storage
>>>> "wasted". 
 
>>> The information is obsolete and has been superseded.
>>> IOW it is a "waste" to download.
 
>> Ok.  I'll buy that.
>> A solution (in part) is to auto-cancel them using No Regrets.
>> I don't know exactly how to do that at the moment, but would
>> interested academically.  
 
> 
> Either I keep a database of Message-IDs or Xpat the server for them 
> when attempt to issue a batch cancel
> 
>> Would you consider starting a .techtalk thread?  
 
>> I imagine there are some regulars that already have
>> scripted schemes that might suffice.
 
> I'll think about it a little then go over there(1-2 days?).

Whatever you want.  If you want.  This would be mostly "learning 
mode" for me. <G>
I don't know all that much about NNTP protocols and especially little 
about scripted CLI operations for same.

> Server honoring Supersedes Header would do all "automagically".

That seems not too likely.  But Steve is fickle (in the best way) and 
could change his mind.  :)

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:31:44, Guy wrote:

>Server honoring Supersedes Header would do all "automagically".

It has been requested before.  I had always thought that would be an 
elegant solution to many issues here.

As it stands at the moment, it won't happen, AIUI.

However, now that all posters MUST have a CECIL id, it might be 
reconsidered, perhaps.  Worth a try. :)

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:31:43, Guy wrote:

>In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Jim Crowther wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:40:13, Guy wrote:
>>
>>> Threads break when one cancels a article.
>>
>> They shouldn't...
>>
>
>To the same affect as a article which expires prior to local policy.
>
Still shouldn't break a thread.  You do thread on MID...

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

[for the unabridged version, see Bob Trevithick's post above]

> > (We were hit again last night after I asked everyone to switch 
> > over to authenticated logons ... so it appears that we are seeing 
> > the start of an annoying trend.)
> 
> Any theories about why, Steve?

None.  And I'm really not even curious nor have I spent/wasted any 
time in backtracking their source(s).  My guess -- and it's only 
that -- would be that we've made it onto some list of private news 
servers and that we're just one of a great many such private 
servers that are now receiving these unsolicited postings.  :(

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Jim Crowther's post above]

> > Server honoring Supersedes Header would do all "automagically".
> 
> It has been requested before.  I had always thought that
> would be an elegant solution to many issues here.
> 
> As it stands at the moment, it won't happen, AIUI.
> 
> However, now that all posters MUST have a CECIL id,
> it might be reconsidered, perhaps.  Worth a try. :)

I thought that there was some overwhelming reason for not allowing 
Supercedes?  I no longer recall what the issue(s) were, but I do 
have code specifically disallowing Superseding of existing posts 
.... which I would not have implemented if there didn't seem to be 
a good reason for it at the time.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve.

In article Steve Gibson says...
> [for the unabridged version, see Jim Crowther's post above]
> 
> > > Server honoring Supersedes Header would do all "automagically".
> > 
> > It has been requested before.  I had always thought that
> > would be an elegant solution to many issues here.
> > 
> > As it stands at the moment, it won't happen, AIUI.
> > 
> > However, now that all posters MUST have a CECIL id,
> > it might be reconsidered, perhaps.  Worth a try. :)
> 
> I thought that there was some overwhelming reason for not allowing 
> Supercedes?  I no longer recall what the issue(s) were, but I do 
> have code specifically disallowing Superseding of existing posts 
> ... which I would not have implemented if there didn't seem to be 
> a good reason for it at the time.


I'd supposed it was due to the occasional malfeelings that 
sometimes raise their head.  And your general desire to keep
jounal style records.

aiui supercedes will allow posters to change messages in place
to misrepresent any previous posts made to cause trouble and
also perhaps sidestep any locked threads that you have created.

Much better that a user (now everyone has Cecil id) do a cancel
and repost in the correct timeline and current references ?

Ash
  

In grc.news.feedback Ash wrote:

> In article Steve Gibson says...
>> [for the unabridged version, see Jim Crowther's post above]
>> 
>> > > Server honoring Supersedes Header would do all 
"automagically".
>> > 
>> > It has been requested before.  I had always thought that
>> > would be an elegant solution to many issues here.
[ ]

>> I thought that there was some overwhelming reason for not allowing 
>> Supercedes?  I no longer recall what the issue(s) were, but I do 
>> have code specifically disallowing Superseding of existing posts 
>> ... which I would not have implemented if there didn't seem to be 
>> a good reason for it at the time.
 
> I'd supposed it was due to the occasional malfeelings that 
> sometimes raise their head.  And your general desire to keep
> jounal style records.
> 
> aiui supercedes will allow posters to change messages in place
> to misrepresent any previous posts made to cause trouble and
> also perhaps sidestep any locked threads that you have created.
> 
> Much better that a user (now everyone has Cecil id) do a cancel
> and repost in the correct timeline and current references ?

FWIW that sounds like a good reason not to allow it.  I am in favor 
of Part two (cancel and repost).  Or "Part 3", post a follow-up with 
correction.  

Having said my nickles worth, would Supersedes apply globally on a 
server or be as granular as the individual groups if implemented?

If "by group" then there may be a place such as latestversions where 
recurring but updated posts are more prevalent.

Does Supersedes apply to Body only or also Subject?  (too tired to 
look it up).

[For the unexcerpted original, see above]
Mark V wrote ...

> If "by group" then there may be a place such as latestversions where 
> recurring but updated posts are more prevalent.

Although, if posts have only a 90-day life, that won't matter much; in 
effect they are superceded by time.

In my view, as I understand it (probably not too well), superceding 
would be very confusing.

-- 

Terry Webb ///

"Robert Wycoff" <rwycoff@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
news:cnld32$v5l$2@news.grc.com...

I did what you said to do when you explained to Leif how to set his
browser...

>You have the right tab.  Just follow these directions.
>
>http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#cancel
>
>      1    Choose one long and unique passphrase of up to 30 characters.
>
>      2   Then place it in each of your newsreader's username and password
>fields.
>
>      3   Finally, set your newsreader to always logon using them. That's
>all there is to it.
>
>Be sure to check the "remember this password" box.
>
[snip]
closed browser and then opened it again and...

> Go to grc.test, post a message, then after it appears in your newsreader
> (OE), choose Message>Cancel Message, and if the news server doesn't reject
> the message, you know you are able to cancel your posts.
>
> -- 
> Robert

Posted the message at .test and tried to cancel message...

got the following reply from server...

"Outlook Express could not post your message.  Subject 'gragor testing cecil
id', Account: 'news.grc.com', Server: 'news.grc.com', Protocol: NNTP, Server
Response: 'NNTPERROR: 430 No such article', Port: 119, Secure(SSL): No,
Error Number: 0x800CCCA9"

can't find a cecil id anywhere on my message..

guess i lost this round.

care to continue helping?

messages will not post now

Outlook Express could not post your message.  Subject 'Re: In case anyone
thought I knew (was Re: EVERYONE! -- Please switchto  authenticated logon
....)', Account: 'news.grc.com', Server: 'news.grc.com', Protocol: NNTP,
Server Response: '441 Article Not Found or Previously Removed.', Port: 119,
Secure(SSL): No, Server Error: 441, Error Number: 0x800CCCA9

so i have to go and remove all of the above to see if message will post
again....

thanks Robert..


gragor




....

Dutch wrote:

> Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Mike Richter say:

>>All well and good in OE, but as I said originally I'm in Netscape. I 
>>tried following Millie's page, but get no place to put the password. I 
>>get the request for authentication, but no password.
> 
> 
> Mike, did you try this part of Milly's write-up?
> 
> ,quote>
> N.B. Mozilla|Netscape users may have a little trouble getting that
> setting to stick.

One more time: I can't find a place to enter the password in Netscape's 
news client. I have no problem being asked for the password when I log 
on; but there's no password to give it.

Since I'm using a much later version of Communicator than the forgetful 
ones, I've had no trouble being asked each time. I just have no way to 
answer.

Mike
-- 
mrichter@cpl.net
http://www.mrichter.com/

Jim Crowther wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:31:43, Guy wrote:
> 
>> In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Jim Crowther wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:40:13, Guy wrote:
>>>
>>>> Threads break when one cancels a article.
>>>
>>>
>>> They shouldn't...
>>>
>>
>> To the same affect as a article which expires prior to local policy.
>>
> Still shouldn't break a thread.  You do thread on MID...
> 

Perhaps cancelled posts having replies should cancel the content and 
leave the header, to maintain the thread instead of breaking it.

hermital wrote:

> In article <cnlahc$tb3$1@news.grc.com> Mike Richter wrote:
> 
>>All well and good in OE, but as I said originally I'm in Netscape. I
>>tried following Millie's page, but get no place to put the password. I
>>get the request for authentication, but no password.
>>
> 
> Hi Mike,
> 
> Please read the posts from Le Flake and myself upthread.  He's using
> NS 7.2 and described the exact process you need to follow.  I merely
> confirmed it. :)
> 
> Keep on keeping on.

I'm ready to cry about this.

I read that correspondence before I started this branch of the thread. I 
have no problem being asked for the password; I simply don't know how to 
tell Netscape what password will pass.

Let me try it more simply. I have been logging on without password, 
using my real, honest-to-gosh handle made from my first initial and my 
last name. Now I want to invent some new string for both logon name and 
password for this list. I see in your recipe where to enter the name. I 
see in your kind assistance where to ask for authentication.

But where do I enter the password I'll have to enter (or have the 
computer recall)? There's no tab with a space for "password" that I've 
been able to find.

Mike
-- 
mrichter@cpl.net
http://www.mrichter.com/

In message <cnmcs3$1mtq$2@news.grc.com>, gragor <not@this.time.ca> 
writes
>
>"Robert Wycoff" <rwycoff@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
>news:cnld32$v5l$2@news.grc.com...
>
>I did what you said to do when you explained to Leif how to set his
>browser...

[except you're using OE, which is done differently]

>[snip]
>closed browser and then opened it again and...

[except you're using OE, which is done differently]

>> Go to grc.test, post a message, then after it appears in your newsreader
>> (OE), choose Message>Cancel Message, and if the news server doesn't reject
>> the message, you know you are able to cancel your posts.
>
>Posted the message at .test and tried to cancel message...
>
>got the following reply from server...
>
>"Outlook Express could not post your message.  Subject 'gragor testing cecil
>id', Account: 'news.grc.com', Server: 'news.grc.com', Protocol: NNTP, Server
>Response: 'NNTPERROR: 430 No such article', Port: 119, Secure(SSL): No,
>Error Number: 0x800CCCA9"

Yep, no Cecil. :-(

>can't find a cecil id anywhere on my message..

"Non-Authenticated User"

>guess i lost this round.
>
>care to continue helping?

Are you trying to do OE or some other reader?

>messages will not post now
>
>Outlook Express could not post your message.  Subject 'Re: In case anyone
>thought I knew (was Re: EVERYONE! -- Please switchto  authenticated logon
>...)', Account: 'news.grc.com', Server: 'news.grc.com', Protocol: NNTP,
>Server Response: '441 Article Not Found or Previously Removed.', Port: 119,
>Secure(SSL): No, Server Error: 441, Error Number: 0x800CCCA9

Hmm, a different error. But just to double check, had you deleted the 
cancel message from the outbox?

>so i have to go and remove all of the above to see if message will post
>again....

this one posted, but no Cecil.

In OE6 which you appear to be using:

Tools | Accounts | News tab | [highlight your GRC account] | Properties 
| Server tab.

Check the box "This server requires me to log on".

Enter your chosen pass phrase in both the "Account Name" and "Password" 
boxes.

Do _not_ check the "Log on using Secure Password Authentication".

OK your way out.

I just set that up in OE on another computer, posted a message, then 
canceled it. By using the same passphrase I use on this computer, I got 
the same Cecil even though I was using a different newsreader on a 
different computer. Remember that you do the cancels from within the 
newsreader using this system.
-- 
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets:
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm
 From invalid, Reply To works.
Kevin A.

Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Mike Richter say:

> Dutch wrote:
> 
>> Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Mike Richter say:
> 
>>>All well and good in OE, but as I said originally I'm in Netscape. I 
>>>tried following Millie's page, but get no place to put the password. I 
>>>get the request for authentication, but no password.
>> 
>> Mike, did you try this part of Milly's write-up?
>> 
>> ,quote>
>> N.B. Mozilla|Netscape users may have a little trouble getting that
>> setting to stick.
> 
> One more time: I can't find a place to enter the password in Netscape's 
> news client. I have no problem being asked for the password when I log 
> on; but there's no password to give it.

The password should be *exactly* the same word/phrase you previously
entered...

> Since I'm using a much later version of Communicator than the forgetful 
> ones, I've had no trouble being asked each time. I just have no way to 
> answer.

I'm not clear on this apparently. You *do* get asked for a password, and
just didn't know what to enter? Or do you mean there is no place to
enter it?

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm

Mike Richter wrote:
> 
[  ]
> 
> I read that correspondence before I started this branch of the thread. I
> have no problem being asked for the password; I simply don't know how to
> tell Netscape what password will pass.
> 
> Let me try it more simply. I have been logging on without password,
> using my real, honest-to-gosh handle made from my first initial and my
> last name. Now I want to invent some new string for both logon name and
> password for this list. I see in your recipe where to enter the name. I
> see in your kind assistance where to ask for authentication.
> 
> But where do I enter the password I'll have to enter (or have the
> computer recall)? There's no tab with a space for "password" that I've
> been able to find.
> 
> Mike
> --
> mrichter@cpl.net
> http://www.mrichter.com/

Mike:

I have the same problem with Netscape 4.7 .  Configuration allows
me to choose either to ask for a user name and password each time
I open the GRC newsgroup or to only ask if the server requires a
user name and password.  There is no offer to save a user name and
password.  Right now I just have to enter the new user name twice
each time I open the GRC newsgroup. This gives me canceling rights
but could be a problem if I miss spell the user name when I log
in.

I guess its time to go to Mozilla or Thunderbird.

Gerry

I was wandering aimlessly around grc.news.feedback, when I heard
"Steve Gibson" yell above the crowd:

> ... but these expirations are based upon the timestamp of the 
> article's file itself.  The "cloning" process I used to duplicate 
> the new server from the old one "reset" all of the article's 
> postings to the date of the cloning.
> 
> So, at that point, ANY articles which were up to 90 days old would 
> have been "given new life" by being moved into the new server.


Have you thought of creating an "Entropy" script?


I have a similar problem with Hamster here when I had to rebuild the 
it's spool from scratch on the last update I did (corrupted), so now 
I'm in the same situation, posts from as far back as May, and some 
rather large files.  }:8(

Although I could probably *wait* until the groups expire naturally 
(December 20th), and then reset the expiry dates manually to 120 days.

But I think a Entropy script would be useful...  };8)

-- 
The Tech Zero, Maxx Pollare - Traveling without moving...

I was wandering aimlessly around grc.news.feedback, when I heard
"Steve Gibson" yell above the crowd:

> I thought that there was some overwhelming reason for not allowing 
> Supercedes?  I no longer recall what the issue(s) were, but I do 
> have code specifically disallowing Superseding of existing posts 
> ... which I would not have implemented if there didn't seem to be 
> a good reason for it at the time.


The only one I can think of is "Dip Slime"...  };8)

-- 
The Tech Zero, Maxx Pollare - Traveling without moving...

Mike Richter wrote:

> 
> But where do I enter the password I'll have to enter (or have the 
> computer recall)? There's no tab with a space for "password" that I've 
> been able to find.
> 

Easier with Thunderbird, fortunately.  You just check the authentication 
box and it asks you for username/password when you try to log on.

If you haven't tried it out yet, now's a good time, because 0.9 is close 
to the finished product and very nice:

http://www.mozilla.org/products/thunderbird/

The next Netscape will be based around Firefox anyway.

I'd suggest a passphrase rather a password: if they are long enough - 
and Steve allows up to 30 characters - and nonsensical, they are secure 
but memorable:

http://software.newsforge.com/print.pl?sid=03/02/26/1639212

-- 
Michael

In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Mark V wrote:

> In grc.news.feedback Guy wrote:
> 
>> In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Mark V wrote:
>> 
>>> Guy, I see your point but OTOH it's only server storage
>>> "wasted". 
>>> 
>> 
>> The information is obsolete and has been superseded.
>> IOW it is a "waste" to download.
>> 
> 
> Ok.  I'll buy that.
> A solution (in part) is to auto-cancel them using No Regrets.
> I don't know exactly how to do that at the moment, but would
> interested academically.  
>

Here is my solution:
Prior Message-ID is stored. When routine is to make a post first
it formats and sends a cancel message.

> Would you consider starting a .techtalk thread?  
>

Below is the relavant portion of the batch.

Server honoring Supersedes Header would do all "automagically".


@type oldmid | cut -b 14-63 - > oldmid
@qecho "set cancelmid=" > {a}.bat
@type oldmid >> {a}.bat
@call {a}.bat
@qecho "Subject: cmsg cancel <%cancelmid%>",CR,LF  > cmsg.txt
@qecho "From: TEST <test@[127.0.0.1]>",CR,LF >> cmsg.txt
@qecho "Control: cancel <%cancelmid%>",CR,LF  >> cmsg.txt
@qecho "Message-ID: <cancel.%cancelmid%>",CR,LF  >> cmsg.txt
@qecho "Newsgroups: grc.test",CR,LF,CR,LF,"CANCEL MESSAGE BODY",CR,LF >> cmsg.txt
@nntpx -s news.grc.com:119 -u password:password -p cmsg.txt
@qecho "From: TEST <test@[127.0.0.1]>",CR,LF > pmsg.txt
@qecho "Newsgroups: grc.test",CR,LF >> pmsg.txt
@qecho "Subject: TEST MESSAGE SUBJECT",CR,LF >> pmsg.txt
@nowminus 'Expires: * f256 d-8 u-6 i r >> pmsg.txt
@nowminus I. K$ f8 r Emid
@qecho "Message-ID: <test-%mid%@[127.0.0.1]>",CR,LF,CR,LF > oldmid
@type oldmid >> pmsg.txt
@qecho "TEST MESSAGE BODY",CR,LF,CR,LF >> pmsg.txt
@nntpx -s news.grc.com:119 -u password:password -p pmsg.txt


-- 
Regards,
Guy

<URL:http://guysalias.batcave.net/pgpkeys.txt> [Updated: 4/29/2004]

Mike Richter wrote:

> One more time: I can't find a place to enter the password in Netscape's 
> news client. I have no problem being asked for the password when I log 
> on; but there's no password to give it.
> 
> Since I'm using a much later version of Communicator than the forgetful 
> ones, I've had no trouble being asked each time. I just have no way to 
> answer.
> 

When you open up GRC newsgroups in Netscape... and the popup comes up 
asking you for your user-id, type it in, click ok or whatever and 
another very similar popup comes up asking for your password. Type in 
the same value as you did for user-id and bingo... you have activated CECIL.

If that isn't the problem, please get back to me. I'll then try and 
replicate what you're seeing...


-- 
Le Flake
from deepest, darkest Qu�bec

Le Flake wrote:
> Mike Richter wrote:
> 
>> One more time: I can't find a place to enter the password in 
>> Netscape's news client. I have no problem being asked for the password 
>> when I log on; but there's no password to give it.
>>
>> Since I'm using a much later version of Communicator than the 
>> forgetful ones, I've had no trouble being asked each time. I just have 
>> no way to answer.
> 
> When you open up GRC newsgroups in Netscape... and the popup comes up 
> asking you for your user-id, type it in, click ok or whatever and 
> another very similar popup comes up asking for your password. Type in 
> the same value as you did for user-id and bingo... you have activated 
> CECIL.
> 
> If that isn't the problem, please get back to me. I'll then try and 
> replicate what you're seeing...

Netscape 7.2 is behaving exactly as you describe here. I don't know if 
we're just not understanding what Mike's seeing...

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm

Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Guy say:

>> Ok.  I'll buy that.
>> A solution (in part) is to auto-cancel them using No Regrets.
>> I don't know exactly how to do that at the moment, but would
>> interested academically.  
> 
> Here is my solution:
> Prior Message-ID is stored. When routine is to make a post first
> it formats and sends a cancel message.
[...]

That's about the same way my "Guidelines..." auto-posts work, Guy. I 
generate the cancel message for the next sequence with same batch file 
that creates the current message, referencing the same time/date 
generated MID. The scheduler then just does it all in sequence, sending 
the "old" cancel with NNTPX, then generating the new post and new 
cancel, and lastly sending the new post with NNTPX. Your posting 
"trigger" would be more complex of course, since mine is only time 
based...
 
-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm

In grc.news.feedback Mark V wrote:

OT OT OT OT

> In grc.news.feedback Ash wrote:
> 
>> In article Steve Gibson says...
>>> [for the unabridged version, see Jim Crowther's post above]
>>> 
>>> > > Server honoring Supersedes Header would do all 
[ ]
>>> Supercedes?  I no longer recall what the issue(s) were, but I do 
[ ]
> Having said my nickles worth, would Supersedes apply globally on a 

How do _you_ spell it?     
I spell it supercedes but my dang checker (and the one dictionary I 
checked) insist on supersedes (with an S)

Really not important, is OT, but I am curious.

In grc.news.feedback Dutch wrote:

> Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Guy say:
> 
>>> Ok.  I'll buy that.
>>> A solution (in part) is to auto-cancel them using No Regrets.
>>> I don't know exactly how to do that at the moment, but would
>>> interested academically.  
>> 
>> Here is my solution:
>> Prior Message-ID is stored. When routine is to make a post first
>> it formats and sends a cancel message.
> [...]
> 
> That's about the same way my "Guidelines..." auto-posts work, Guy.
[ ]

Great stuff.  Reading and learning from you.  TY.

In grc.news.feedback Kerry wrote:

> Jim Crowther wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:31:43, Guy wrote:
>> 
>>> In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Jim Crowther wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:40:13, Guy wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Threads break when one cancels a article.
>>>>
 
>>>> They shouldn't...
>>>>
>>>
>>> To the same affect as a article which expires prior to local
>>> policy. 
>>>
>> Still shouldn't break a thread.  You do thread on MID...
>> 
> 
> Perhaps cancelled posts having replies should cancel the content
> and leave the header, to maintain the thread instead of breaking
> it. 

Or blank everyting but the MID and references and replace the Subject 
with "-CANCELLED-"
?
Just musing.

[For the unexcerpted original, see above]
Mark V wrote ...

> How do _you_ spell it?     
> I spell it supercedes but my dang checker (and the one dictionary I 
> checked) insist on supersedes (with an S)
> 
> Really not important, is OT, but I am curious.

According to Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

Supercede is a variant of Supersede.

Main Entry: su�per�sede 
Pronunciation: "s�-p&r-'sEd
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -sed�ed; -sed�ing
Etymology: Middle English superceden, from Middle French superseder to 
refrain from, from Latin supersedEre to be superior to, refrain from, 
from super- + sedEre to sit -- more at SIT
1 a : to cause to be set aside b : to force out of use as inferior
2 : to take the place, room, or position of
3 : to displace in favor of another : SUPPLANT
synonym see REPLACE
- su�per�sed�er noun

-- 

Terry Webb ///

Dutch wrote:
> Le Flake wrote:

>>
>> When you open up GRC newsgroups in Netscape... and the popup comes up 
>> asking you for your user-id, type it in, click ok or whatever and 
>> another very similar popup comes up asking for your password. Type in 
>> the same value as you did for user-id and bingo... you have activated 
>> CECIL.
>>
>> If that isn't the problem, please get back to me. I'll then try and 
>> replicate what you're seeing...
> 
> 
> Netscape 7.2 is behaving exactly as you describe here. I don't know if 
> we're just not understanding what Mike's seeing...
> 

That's my concern too... I remember undergoing that very same 
frustration before on authentication but I managed to do it 
eventually... trouble is, I forgot what I did :(




-- 
Le Flake
from deepest, darkest Qu�bec

Le Flake wrote:

> When you open up GRC newsgroups in Netscape... and the popup comes up 
> asking you for your user-id, type it in, click ok or whatever and 
> another very similar popup comes up asking for your password. Type in 
> the same value as you did for user-id and bingo... you have activated 
> CECIL.
> 
> If that isn't the problem, please get back to me. I'll then try and 
> replicate what you're seeing...

That's what I needed to knwo. It appears to be working.

My error was in assuming that I needed to enter the ID and password into 
Netscape for Communicator to verify when I typed it in. Now, having hit 
myself on the head at the simplicity of the solution, I realize that 
this is for the server to 'verify' - in this case, to accept as a CecilID.

On the other hand, I don't see that this will keep spammers out if 
they're willing to play the game. But that's for Steve to decide.

Thanks to all who put up with my Osmium density. Some days, nothing clicks.

Mike
-- 
mrichter@cpl.net
http://www.mrichter.com/

Terry L. Webb <tlw@mindless.com> wrote:
> [For the unexcerpted original, see above]
> Mark V wrote ...
>
>> If "by group" then there may be a place such as latestversions where
>> recurring but updated posts are more prevalent.
>
> Although, if posts have only a 90-day life, that won't matter much; in
> effect they are superceded by time.
>
> In my view, as I understand it (probably not too well), superceding
> would be very confusing.

Posts in news.grc.com, except for .latestversions and .test, I believe, are
permanent.  Non-expiring.

-- 
Robert
GRC newsgroup tips - http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm
List of Lists - http://lists.gpick.com/
Privacy and Security - https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/ehowes/www/main-nf.htm

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:10:15 -0800, Steve Gibson <support@grc.com> wrote:

>ALL YOU NEED TO DO is change your browser's LOGON settings from 
>"No Password Required" (or whatever your system calls it) to 
>"Logon Using" ... and pick a unique passphrase for yourself which 
>no one else will be likely to have chosen. You then use that 
>single Passphrase as *BOTH* your logon username and password.  
>They *MUST* be identical.
>
>Then simply reconnect ... and you'll be ready to go.

Ok, done.  This is a test to see if I can now post.

Regards,


Greg Strong

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:19:41 -0600, Greg Strong <Greg@NoSpam.net> wrote:

>Ok, done.  This is a test to see if I can now post.

Ok looks like I'm good to go.  :-)

Regards,


Greg Strong

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:21:07, Greg Strong wrote:

>On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:19:41 -0600, Greg Strong <Greg@NoSpam.net> wrote:
>
>>Ok, done.  This is a test to see if I can now post.
>
>Ok looks like I'm good to go.  :-)

'Fraid not. :(

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

In grc.news.feedback Terry L. Webb wrote:

> [For the unexcerpted original, see above]
> Mark V wrote ...
> 
>> How do _you_ spell it?     
>> I spell it supercedes but my dang checker (and the one dictionary
>> I checked) insist on supersedes (with an S)
>> 
>> Really not important, is OT, but I am curious.

Thanks Terry

> According to Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:
> 
> Supercede is a variant of Supersede.
[ ]
> Etymology: Middle English superceden, from Middle French
> superseder 

Hmm, an the English vs the French thing...
I'd better not go there.  :)

I'll go with the Latin root were no one alive will likely start a war 
over it. <VBG>

Then ignore it anyway and supercede the "s" with a "c" in my checker. 

Mark V wrote:
> In grc.news.feedback Mark V wrote:
> 
> How do _you_ spell it?     
> I spell it supercedes but my dang checker (and the one dictionary I 
> checked) insist on supersedes (with an S)
> 
> Really not important, is OT, but I am curious.

my Random_House_/_Webster's_Unabridged has "supercede" as main entry
and "supersede" as a variant listing only under supercede.

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 17:37:41 +0000, Jim Crowther
<Don't_bother@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> wrote:

>'Fraid not. :(

What do you mean?  

I followed instructions:
>>ALL YOU NEED TO DO is change your browser's LOGON settings from 
>>"No Password Required" (or whatever your system calls it) to 
>>"Logon Using" ... and pick a unique passphrase for yourself which 
>>no one else will be likely to have chosen. You then use that 
>>single Passphrase as *BOTH* your logon username and password.  
>>They *MUST* be identical.
>
>>Then simply reconnect ... and you'll be ready to go.
 
I am able to post.  So I don't know where you are coming from on this one.

Regards,


Greg Strong

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 12:23:54 -0600, Greg Strong <Greg@NoSpam.net> wrote:

>I am able to post.  So I don't know where you are coming from on this one.

Also I have Cecil ID.  I can't remember when I implemented it tough.

Regards,


Greg Strong

In grc.news.feedback Greg Strong wrote:

Follow-Ups set to grc.test


> On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 17:37:41 +0000, Jim Crowther
> <Don't_bother@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> wrote:
> 
>>'Fraid not. :(
> 
> What do you mean?  
> 
> I followed instructions:
>>>ALL YOU NEED TO DO is change your browser's LOGON settings from 
[ ]

>>>Then simply reconnect ... and you'll be ready to go.
>  
> I am able to post.  So I don't know where you are coming from on
> this one. 
 
From: Greg Strong <Greg@NoSpam.net>
Newsgroups: grc.news.feedback
Subject: Re: EVERYONE! -- Please switch to authenticated logon ...
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 12:23:54 -0600
Poster: [24.223.196.119] (20 Nov 2004 18:28:09 GMT) 
{bpKhXV3XiXT0lCDSIVomS7C5OlU}

^^^^^^^ Seems to be working okay now.

"Able to post" does not *yet* require the CECIL system, but will 
shortly.

Follow-Ups set to grc.test

[for the unabridged version, see Ash's post above]

> I'd supposed it was due to the occasional malfeelings that 
> sometimes raise their head.  And your general desire to keep
> jounal style records.
> 
> aiui supercedes will allow posters to change messages in place
> to misrepresent any previous posts made to cause trouble and
> also perhaps sidestep any locked threads that you have created.
> 
> Much better that a user (now everyone has Cecil id) do a cancel
> and repost in the correct timeline and current references ?

Yes ... I think that you have correctly recalled our logic and 
reasoning at the time.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]

> > Perhaps cancelled posts having replies should cancel the
> > content and leave the header, to maintain the thread instead
> > of breaking it. 
> 
> Or blank everyting but the MID and references and replace the
> Subject with "-CANCELLED-"
> ?
> Just musing.

Yes.  I've been contemplating this question a bit since cancelling 
the parent article of a thread -- or any article with multiple 
replies for that matter -- will fragment the thread at that point, 
creating multiple threads with new parent articles.  So I'm 
thinking that on the web-interface side at least I'll be holding 
the original threading together and inserting a "cancelled 
article" placeholder.

I could also certainly do this on the NNTP server side as well.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve.

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 18:36:54 +0000 (UTC), Mark V <notvalid@nul.invalid> wrote:

>Seems to be working okay now.

Yes

>"Able to post" does not *yet* require the CECIL system, but will 
>shortly.

Well if you look I already have one, but I can't even remember when I implemented.  IIRC I
implemented like 2 years ago to be able to delete messages.  Not sure though.  I believe
you have to have a password associated with the Cecil ID, and I'll have to dig that one
out.  

>Follow-Ups set to grc.test

yes if only a test.  

Regards,


Greg Strong

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 10:47:31, Steve Gibson wrote:

>[for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]
>
>> > Perhaps cancelled posts having replies should cancel the
>> > content and leave the header, to maintain the thread instead
>> > of breaking it.

>> Or blank everyting but the MID and references and replace the
>> Subject with "-CANCELLED-"
>> ?
>> Just musing.

>Yes.  I've been contemplating this question a bit since cancelling
>the parent article of a thread -- or any article with multiple
>replies for that matter -- will fragment the thread at that point,
>creating multiple threads with new parent articles.  So I'm
>thinking that on the web-interface side at least I'll be holding
>the original threading together and inserting a "cancelled
>article" placeholder.
>
>I could also certainly do this on the NNTP server side as well.

I am still unaware of a problem with cancelled posts - in what way is a 
thread seen as broken?  Obviously some see this, but I'm unaware of a 
mechanism that would do this, unless the references header is already 
extremely long.

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

Mark V schrieb:
> [ ]
>>>> Supercedes?  I no longer recall what the issue(s) were, but I do 
> [ ]
>> Having said my nickles worth, would Supersedes apply globally on a 
> How do _you_ spell it?     
> I spell it supercedes but my dang checker (and the one dictionary I 
> checked) insist on supersedes (with an S)

As it is in a technical context, only "supersedes" is valid.
The other version, used as a posting-header, would do nothing.

Carsten

In grc.news.feedback Jim Crowther wrote:

> On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 10:47:31, Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
>>[for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]

>>>>In grc.news.feedback Kerry wrote:

>>> > Perhaps cancelled posts having replies should cancel the
>>> > content and leave the header, to maintain the thread instead
>>> > of breaking it.
> 
>>> Or blank everyting but the MID and references and replace the
>>> Subject with "-CANCELLED-"
[ ]
>>Yes.  I've been contemplating this question a bit since cancelling
>>the parent article of a thread -- or any article with multiple
[ ]
> 
> I am still unaware of a problem with cancelled posts - in what way
> is a thread seen as broken?  Obviously some see this, but I'm
> unaware of a mechanism that would do this, unless the references
> header is already extremely long.

I suspect it's use of the word "broken" that is difficult.
"Visually disconnected" ?

In grc.news.feedback Carsten Hiller wrote:

> Mark V schrieb:
>> [ ]
>>>>> Supercedes?  I no longer recall what the issue(s) were, but I do 
>> [ ]
>>> Having said my nickles worth, would Supersedes apply globally on a 
>> How do _you_ spell it?     
>> I spell it supercedes but my dang checker (and the one dictionary I 
>> checked) insist on supersedes (with an S)
> 
> As it is in a technical context, only "supersedes" is valid.
> The other version, used as a posting-header, would do nothing.

That wasn't my intial question but thank you for pointing out that (I 
presume) an RFC specfies an exact string (with 2 S's).  Pertinent to 
the general sub-thread surely.

Jim Crowther schrieb:

> On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 10:47:31, Steve Gibson wrote:
>>Yes.  I've been contemplating this question a bit since cancelling
>>the parent article of a thread -- or any article with multiple
>>replies for that matter -- will fragment the thread at that point,
>>creating multiple threads with new parent articles.  So I'm
>>thinking that on the web-interface side at least I'll be holding
>>the original threading together and inserting a "cancelled
>>article" placeholder.
>>I could also certainly do this on the NNTP server side as well.
> I am still unaware of a problem with cancelled posts - in what way is a 
> thread seen as broken?  Obviously some see this, but I'm unaware of a 
> mechanism that would do this, unless the references header is already 
> extremely long.

The problem is with some "newsreaders" out there. Their idea of
threading consists of "get the last MID in References and connect the
posts". This is broken, but you can do nothing against it. Some of them
even try to cover up by including the Subject into the threading attempt.

Carsten

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 20:58:02, Carsten Hiller wrote:

>Jim Crowther schrieb:
[]

>> I am still unaware of a problem with cancelled posts - in what way is a
>> thread seen as broken?  Obviously some see this, but I'm unaware of a
>> mechanism that would do this, unless the references header is already
>> extremely long.
>
>The problem is with some "newsreaders" out there. Their idea of
>threading consists of "get the last MID in References and connect the
>posts". This is broken, but you can do nothing against it. Some of them
>even try to cover up by including the Subject into the threading attempt.

Ah.  Let me guess.  Yup, got it. :(  <grr>, BG has a lot to answer for.

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 12:23:54, Greg Strong wrote:

>On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 17:37:41 +0000, Jim Crowther
><Don't_bother@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> wrote:
>
>>'Fraid not. :(
>
>What do you mean?

The post I replied to had:

Message-ID: <c7vup0pgmg9tee5t4ubt013hao947mjr5f@4ax.com>
Poster: [24.223.196.119] (20 Nov 2004 17:25:23 GMT) Non-Authenticated

>I followed instructions:
>>>ALL YOU NEED TO DO is change your browser's LOGON settings from
>>>"No Password Required" (or whatever your system calls it) to
>>>"Logon Using" ... and pick a unique passphrase for yourself which
>>>no one else will be likely to have chosen. You then use that
>>>single Passphrase as *BOTH* your logon username and password.
>>>They *MUST* be identical.
>>
>>>Then simply reconnect ... and you'll be ready to go.
>
>I am able to post.

So what, the plug hasn't yet been pulled...

>So I don't know where you are coming from on this one.

However, your headers now show:

Poster: [24.223.196.119] (20 Nov 2004 18:28:09 GMT) {bpKhXV3XiXT0lCDSIVomS7C5OlU}

So you have now got authentication.  Have you re-started Agent or 
something?

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

In +tW3duGrU6nBFwjH@nospam.at.my.choice.of.UID
Jim Crowther mused:
<re: de-threading usenet threads>
> Ah.  Let me guess.  Yup, got it. :(  <grr>, BG has a lot to answer
> for.

How about if the initial post of a thread was cancelled (or otherwise
unavailable) and there were multiple replies to it?

In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Dutch wrote:

> Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Guy say:
> 
>> Here is my solution:
>> Prior Message-ID is stored. When routine is to make a post first
>> it formats and sends a cancel message. 
> [...]
> 
> That's about the same way my "Guidelines..." auto-posts work, Guy.
> I generate the cancel message for the next sequence with same
> batch file that creates the current message
>

I see, you "pre-cancel" and I've setup as "post-cancel".
Your method would be easier and more efficient.

I started from the perspective that the post already exists.

Thanks for sharing the information.


-- 
Regards,
Guy

<URL:http://guysalias.batcave.net/pgpkeys.txt> [Updated: 4/29/2004]

Mark V schrieb:

[Supercedes - Supersedes]
>> As it is in a technical context, only "supersedes" is valid.
>> The other version, used as a posting-header, would do nothing.
> That wasn't my intial question 

My bad, but I'm going to butt in anyways. :-)

> but thank you for pointing out that (I 
> presume) an RFC specfies an exact string (with 2 S's). 

Yes:
<http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-usefor-usefor-01.txt>

| This document supersedes RFC 1036

| 3.2.5 Supersedes
|
| The Supersedes header contains a message identifier specifying an
| article to be superseded upon the arrival of this one. The specified
| article MUST be treated as though a "cancel" [USEPRO] control message
| had arrived for the article (but observe that a site MAY choose not
| to honor a "cancel" message, especially if its authenticity is in
| doubt).
|
| supersedes = "Supersedes:" SP [CFWS] msg-id-core [CFWS] CRLF
|
| NOTE: There is no "c" in Supersedes.

Carsten

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 14:48:59, Guy wrote:

>Supersedes provides at a minimum proof that the original posting has
>been replaced by inclusion of that MID in the Supersedes Header.

Thank-you.  However, I suspect that the GRC server would throw away that 
header anyway. :(

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

In grc.news.feedback Carsten Hiller wrote:

> Mark V schrieb:
> 
> [Supercedes - Supersedes]
>>> As it is in a technical context, only "supersedes" is valid.
>>> The other version, used as a posting-header, would do nothing.
>> That wasn't my intial question 
> 
> My bad, but I'm going to butt in anyways. :-)

Not at all, just blindsided me with another Truth.  :)

[ ]
> <http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-usefor-usefor-01.tx
> t> 
> 
>| This document supersedes RFC 1036
 
>| 3.2.5 Supersedes
>|
>| The Supersedes header contains a message identifier specifying an
>| article to be superseded upon the arrival of this one. The
>| specified article MUST be treated as though a "cancel" [USEPRO]
>| control message had arrived for the article (but observe that a
>| site MAY choose not to honor a "cancel" message, especially if
>| its authenticity is in doubt).
>|
>| supersedes = "Supersedes:" SP [CFWS] msg-id-core [CFWS] CRLF
>|
>| NOTE: There is no "c" in Supersedes.

Thanks !

In grc.news.feedback Guy wrote:

> In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
>> 
[ ]
> How is 
>    
>    "do a cancel and repost in the correct
>     timeline and current references"
> 
>  any different or better than doing a Supersedes


 from offstage:
   If all Canceled posts are retained and marked Canceled...

[ ]

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 20:47:50, PnG wrote:

>In +tW3duGrU6nBFwjH@nospam.at.my.choice.of.UID
>Jim Crowther mused:
><re: de-threading usenet threads>
>> Ah.  Let me guess.  Yup, got it. :(  <grr>, BG has a lot to answer
>> for.
>
>How about if the initial post of a thread was cancelled (or otherwise
>unavailable) and there were multiple replies to it?

Here, at least, there would appear no difference if I had already 
collected the initial post.

If i collected the thread after the initial post, there would still be a 
thread, but the subject would be Re: <subject>.  No other discernible 
difference other than an icon (a dot) for the initial post denoting it 
was unavailable.

I have set up just such a thread in grc.test, and I see it (expanded) 
thus:

<http://www.crowth.org.uk/odds/cthreads.jpg>

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:18:16, Mark V wrote:

>In grc.news.feedback Guy wrote:
>
>> In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Steve Gibson wrote:
>>
>>>
>[ ]
>> How is
>>
>>    "do a cancel and repost in the correct
>>     timeline and current references"
>>
>>  any different or better than doing a Supersedes
>
>
> from offstage:
>   If all Canceled posts are retained and marked Canceled...
>
>[ ]

That would be a PITA here, frankly.  If a newsreader can't cope with 
cancelled messages, it doesn't seem to be a very good newsreader.

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

In qOXCFiPtT7nBFwTQ@nospam.at.my.choice.of.UID
Jim Crowther mused:
> On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 20:47:50, PnG wrote:
>
>> In +tW3duGrU6nBFwjH@nospam.at.my.choice.of.UID
>> Jim Crowther mused:
>> <re: de-threading usenet threads>
>>> Ah.  Let me guess.  Yup, got it. :(  <grr>, BG has a lot to answer
>>> for.
>>
>> How about if the initial post of a thread was cancelled (or otherwise
>> unavailable) and there were multiple replies to it?
>
> Here, at least, there would appear no difference if I had already
> collected the initial post.

Indeed.

> If i collected the thread after the initial post, there would still
> be a thread, but the subject would be Re: <subject>.  No other
> discernible difference other than an icon (a dot) for the initial
> post denoting it was unavailable.

So your s/w is relying on the presumption that the original message
existed?

Should we relocate the discussion elsewhere?

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 20:17:09 +0000, Jim Crowther
<Don't_bother@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> wrote:

>So you have now got authentication.  Have you re-started Agent or 
>something?

Yes, but only after setting up authentication per instructions.  

Regards,


Greg Strong

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:31:41, PnG wrote:

>In qOXCFiPtT7nBFwTQ@nospam.at.my.choice.of.UID
>Jim Crowther mused:
>> On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 20:47:50, PnG wrote:
[]
>>> How about if the initial post of a thread was cancelled (or otherwise
>>> unavailable) and there were multiple replies to it?

>> Here, at least, there would appear no difference if I had already
>> collected the initial post.

>Indeed.

>> If i collected the thread after the initial post, there would still
>> be a thread, but the subject would be Re: <subject>.  No other
>> discernible difference other than an icon (a dot) for the initial
>> post denoting it was unavailable.

>So your s/w is relying on the presumption that the original message
>existed?

Its MID does in the References, and always will do, regardless of the 
length of the thread.

>Should we relocate the discussion elsewhere?

Good idea, x/p and f/u to grc.techtalk. :)

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:54:14, Jim Crowther wrote:

>Good idea, x/p and f/u to grc.techtalk. :)

Where this thread appears as:

<http://www.crowth.org.uk/odds/tthread.jpg>

Note that if I double-click (or open by other means) any of the messages 
denoted by a dot (as not on this newsgroup), the message with that MID 
is then displayed (as it exists locally).

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

Jim Crowther wrote:
> 
> I am still unaware of a problem with cancelled posts - in what way is a 
> thread seen as broken?  Obviously some see this, but I'm unaware of a 
> mechanism that would do this, unless the references header is already 
> extremely long.

If the post is cancelled while you are off line, then you come on line 
and download all the new headers the thread after the cancelled post has 
no link back to the earlier part of the thread. Of course if you have 
all the current headers and then somebody cancels a post, you will still 
have a linked thread. At least I think it works that way.

How else would you maintain the linkage across the missing post? Match 
the subject line?

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 14:18:12, Kerry wrote:

>Jim Crowther wrote:
>>  I am still unaware of a problem with cancelled posts - in what way 
>>is a  thread seen as broken?  Obviously some see this, but I'm unaware 
>>of a  mechanism that would do this, unless the references header is 
>>already  extremely long.
>
>If the post is cancelled while you are off line, then you come on line 
>and download all the new headers the thread after the cancelled post 
>has no link back to the earlier part of the thread.

Yes it does, it has a link to the MID of a post that it cannot download 
- this might be due to cancellation, or just that it has expired from 
the server in the fullness of time (not likely here, grant you, but this 
is an exceptional place).

Are you telling me there are newsreaders that can't cope with a 
naturally expired original article?  They are not worthy of the title.

>Of course if you have all the current headers and then somebody cancels 
>a post, you will still have a linked thread. At least I think it works 
>that way.

It shouldn't matter if you have the headers or not.  You have the 
relevant MIDs.  If there is a MID, there once was an article, so locally 
acknowledge that fact.

>How else would you maintain the linkage across the missing post? Match 
>the subject line?

Match the MIDs, of course.  Trivial.

And as part of that exercise, x/p and f/u to grc.techtalk.  How do you 
see this thread there?  An image would explain much.

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 22:37:00, Jim Crowther wrote:

>And as part of that exercise, x/p and f/u to grc.techtalk.  How do you 
>see this thread there?  An image would explain much.

Here:

<http://www.crowth.org.uk/odds/tthread.jpg>

(I have overwritten the previous one)

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

In article <95A7$96B88.9452$2E284CEEC009E394A9D7@127.0.0.1>, Guy 
says...
> I believe your logic is flawed and unsupported.
> 
> >> Much better that a user (now everyone has Cecil id) do a cancel and
> >> repost in the correct timeline and current references ? 
> > 
> 
> How can it be better, it is actually worse.
> 
> How is 
>    
>    "do a cancel and repost in the correct
>     timeline and current references"
> 
>  any different or better than doing a Supersedes?

Guy,

Imagine that I posted something that said you were a <choose some 
insulting thing> and a thread developed from this post of mine.  I 
now go back and "supersede" the post, and change the original insult 
to something complementary.  And then I say "What are you complaining 
about??  I merely complimented you."

To me, the supersede function might be handy if I mis-typed a URL or 
something, or mis-spelled someone's name unintentionally.

But to a troll, the supercede function would be good for a lot of 
"laughs" and would let them mess with our heads big time.

Just my (possibly mistaken) thoughts on it.

-- 
Bob Trevithick

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 17:47:45, Bob Trevithick wrote:

>Just my (possibly mistaken) thoughts on it.

Perhaps you are missing the point that the MID and the Date would be 
different (duh!) and there *should be* a 'Supersedes' header.  The MID 
change alone should make all clear, but someone has suggested here that 
OE doesn't know they exist. :(  (I don't know, I don't have OE here.)

My recollection is that Steve minimised the headers that would be 
allowed through, Supersedes wasn't one of them, and he wasn't inclined 
to include it.

No big deal, there isn't any way anyone who can read headers (or read 
off-line) would ever be confused, so there would always be a jury out on 
the trolls.

It does make regular postings of essentially the same info (latest AVG 
update) a RRPITA.  But not insurmountable.  I haven't bothered to mount, 
that's all.

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Guy say:

> In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Dutch wrote:
> 
>> Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Guy say:
>> 
>>> Here is my solution:
>>> Prior Message-ID is stored. When routine is to make a post first
>>> it formats and sends a cancel message. 
>> [...]
>> 
>> That's about the same way my "Guidelines..." auto-posts work, Guy.
>> I generate the cancel message for the next sequence with same
>> batch file that creates the current message
> 
> I see, you "pre-cancel" and I've setup as "post-cancel".
> Your method would be easier and more efficient.

Yep, it just seemed simpler to generate the cancel at the same time as
the post to be canceled...
 
> I started from the perspective that the post already exists.

That was only an issue for the first run, but all that meant was
bypassing the cancel send for that one.
 
> Thanks for sharing the information.

You're welcome of course, and thanks for sharing your test batch...

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm

Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Le Flake say:

> Dutch wrote:
>> Le Flake wrote:
> 
>>> When you open up GRC newsgroups in Netscape... and the popup comes up 
>>> asking you for your user-id, type it in, click ok or whatever and 
>>> another very similar popup comes up asking for your password. Type in 
>>> the same value as you did for user-id and bingo... you have activated 
>>> CECIL.
>>>
>>> If that isn't the problem, please get back to me. I'll then try and 
>>> replicate what you're seeing...
>> 
>> Netscape 7.2 is behaving exactly as you describe here. I don't know if 
>> we're just not understanding what Mike's seeing...
> 
> That's my concern too... I remember undergoing that very same 
> frustration before on authentication but I managed to do it 
> eventually... trouble is, I forgot what I did :(

This was a fresh Netscape install since I wouldn't normally use it, but
I did recall from some previous life the necessity of entering each part
in turn. Does Mozilla's mail/newsreader work the same way perhaps?

At least Mike finally got it right, so now maybe we can shame him into
bringing the donuts to the next session... :-)

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm

Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Mark V say:

> In grc.news.feedback Dutch wrote:
> 
[...]
>> That's about the same way my "Guidelines..." auto-posts work, Guy.
> [ ]
> 
> Great stuff.  Reading and learning from you.  TY.

That works both ways, Mark... :-)

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm

In article Guy says...

Ash says:
> >> aiui supercedes will allow posters to change messages in place
> >> to misrepresent any previous posts made to cause trouble and
> >> also perhaps sidestep any locked threads that you have created.
> >> 
> 
> I believe your logic is flawed and unsupported.

Quite possible, I've never seen supercedes in action.  I'd love to
know how you consider my logic is flawed.


> >> Much better that a user (now everyone has Cecil id) do a cancel and
> >> repost in the correct timeline and current references ? 
>  
> How can it be better, it is actually worse.

Why?  A thread moves forward not back, when I reply to a post why
should I be happy that the original poster goes back and edits an
earlier post so that later posts look OT or misquoted ?

I'd say that Dutch is the only person here who might have a legitimate
use for supercedes.
  
I'm asking that the original poster can change their position by
posting a later update so that it's obvious that early replies
refer to the original and later replies thread from the update.

> How is 
>    
>    "do a cancel and repost in the correct
>     timeline and current references"
> 
>  any different or better than doing a Supersedes?

My understanding is that supercedes has lots of variations which is why
I've not been able to it used in any of the many NG I visit.
 
> Furthermore how does Supercedes allow a greater facility than Cancel 
> and repost for exploitation of your above reference examples?

Well I'm saying I think Supercedes doesn't have greater facility !
Simply because there would be different subthreads, one beginning
with the original post, and another beginning with the supercede.
How would a new visitor tell the difference ?

A repost in a solid timeline, I suggest, makes it easy to follow
replies to the repost.  

> > Yes ... I think that you have correctly recalled our logic and 
> > reasoning at the time.
> > 
> 
> Supersedes is not equivalent to a Cancel and repost.

We agree <g>

> Supersedes provides at a minimum proof that the original posting has 
> been replaced by inclusion of that MID in the Supersedes Header.
 
As above I don't have your faith that newsreaders will handle this
openly (properly) and would allow someone to cause friction if they chose. 

Ash

In article Bob Trevithick says...

> Imagine that I posted something that said you were a <choose some 
> insulting thing> and a thread developed from this post of mine.  I 
> now go back and "supersede" the post, and change the original insult 
> to something complementary.  And then I say "What are you complaining 
> about??  I merely complimented you."
> 
> To me, the supersede function might be handy if I mis-typed a URL or 
> something, or mis-spelled someone's name unintentionally.
> 
> But to a troll, the supercede function would be good for a lot of 
> "laughs" and would let them mess with our heads big time.
> 
> Just my (possibly mistaken) thoughts on it.


Yes this is a better way of expressing the thoughts from my first post.


Ash 

Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]
> 
>> > Perhaps cancelled posts having replies should cancel the
>> > content and leave the header, to maintain the thread instead
>> > of breaking it.
>> 
>> Or blank everyting but the MID and references and replace the
>> Subject with "-CANCELLED-"
>> ?
>> Just musing.
> 
> Yes.  I've been contemplating this question a bit since cancelling
> the parent article of a thread -- or any article with multiple
> replies for that matter -- will fragment the thread at that point,
> creating multiple threads with new parent articles.  So I'm
> thinking that on the web-interface side at least I'll be holding
> the original threading together and inserting a "cancelled
> article" placeholder.

This (keeping a placeholder) is probably cheaper than trying to check for
multiple occurences of a non-existent MID in multiple References headers.
I'm not sure how various newsreaders handle this, but I suspect that at
their most efficient a references header causes 'virtual' or 'stub'
messages to be created with that MID. When those MID's are encountered in
an actual message, the virtual/stub message can be further fleshed out.

Of course, the placeholder need only ever be shown if there are multiple
uncancelled replies to it, for clarity of threading.

> I could also certainly do this on the NNTP server side as well.

While it would be interesting to see a declaration in each case when a post
has been cancelled, I think this would result in an excess of clutter,
particularly in cases where multiple posts (or subthreads) are deleted.

Perhaps a scripted replacement of the parent of the thread/subthread with a
message detailing which messages have been removed (by count or MID?), and
possibly a field allowing the party activating the removal to enter a
reason or explanation (eg, offensive, off-topic, etc) would be less clutter

Regards,
Sam
-- 
 17:12:25 up 16:31,  2 users,  load average: 0.36, 0.37, 0.41

In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]
>
>>>In grc.news.feedback Kerry wrote:
>> > Perhaps cancelled posts having replies should cancel the
>> > content and leave the header, to maintain the thread instead
>> > of breaking it. 
>> 
>> Or blank everyting but the MID and references and replace the
>> Subject with "-CANCELLED-"
[ ]

> Yes.  I've been contemplating this question a bit since cancelling 
> the parent article of a thread -- or any article with multiple 
> replies for that matter -- will fragment the thread at that point, 
> creating multiple threads with new parent articles.  So I'm 
> thinking that on the web-interface side at least I'll be holding 
> the original threading together and inserting a "cancelled 
> article" placeholder.
> 
> I could also certainly do this on the NNTP server side as well.

Is is possible to do a trial run for practical evaluation?  Perhaps 
in a limited purpose group that also has a high cancellation rate 
such as .test?  I for one would like to know something about the 
real-world implications and usability with the myriad news clients 
(and HTTP) that are used daily by the readership.

[For the unexcerpted original, see above]
Mark V wrote ...

> In grc.news.feedback Terry L. Webb wrote:
> 
snip

> > Etymology: Middle English superceden, from Middle French
> > superseder 
> 
> Hmm, an the English vs the French thing...
> I'd better not go there.  :)
> 
> I'll go with the Latin root were no one alive will likely start a war 
> over it. <VBG>

You're a wise man. <g>

> 
> Then ignore it anyway and supercede the "s" with a "c" in my checker. 

Me too.  The one with the 's' doesn't look right.

-- 

Terry Webb ///

In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see Ash's post above]
> 
>> I'd supposed it was due to the occasional malfeelings that 
>> sometimes raise their head.  And your general desire to keep
>> jounal style records.
>> 
>> aiui supercedes will allow posters to change messages in place
>> to misrepresent any previous posts made to cause trouble and
>> also perhaps sidestep any locked threads that you have created.
>> 

I believe your logic is flawed and unsupported.

>> Much better that a user (now everyone has Cecil id) do a cancel and
>> repost in the correct timeline and current references ? 
> 

How can it be better, it is actually worse.

How is 
   
   "do a cancel and repost in the correct
    timeline and current references"

 any different or better than doing a Supersedes?

Furthermore how does Supercedes allow a greater facility than Cancel 
and repost for exploitation of your above reference examples?

> Yes ... I think that you have correctly recalled our logic and 
> reasoning at the time.
> 

Supersedes is not equivalent to a Cancel and repost.

Supersedes provides at a minimum proof that the original posting has 
been replaced by inclusion of that MID in the Supersedes Header.




-- 
Regards,
Guy

<URL:http://guysalias.batcave.net/pgpkeys.txt> [Updated: 4/29/2004]

In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Guy wrote:

> Message-ID: <95A7$EFB04.E35C$2E284CEEC009E394A9D7@127.0.0.1>
>

The above article is a Cancel and repost of my prior post
Message-ID: <95A7$96B88.9452$2E284CEEC009E394A9D7@127.0.0.1>


-- 
Regards,
Guy

<URL:http://guysalias.batcave.net/pgpkeys.txt> [Updated: 4/29/2004]

 ** Note:
 ** I broke this thread doing a Cancel and repost of my original.


In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Ash wrote:

> In article Guy says...
> 
> Ash says:
>>>> aiui supercedes will allow posters to change messages in place
>>>> to misrepresent any previous posts made to cause trouble and
>>>> also perhaps sidestep any locked threads that you have created.
>>>> 
>> 
>> I believe your logic is flawed and unsupported.
> 
> Quite possible, I've never seen supercedes in action.  I'd love to
> know how you consider my logic is flawed.
> 

Because to the reader, the aricles whether a Supercedes or Cancel and 
repost appear the same.


>>>> Much better that a user (now everyone has Cecil id) do a cancel
>>>> and repost in the correct timeline and current references ? 
>> 
>> How can it be better, it is actually worse.
> 
> Why?  A thread moves forward not back, when I reply to a post why
> should I be happy that the original poster goes back and edits an
> earlier post so that later posts look OT or misquoted ?
> 

And does the same not apply to a Cancel and repost?

> I'd say that Dutch is the only person here who might have a
> legitimate use for supercedes.
> 

My reason is quite clearly explained within the context of this thread.

Start with:

  From: Guy <Use-Reply-To-Address-Header@[127.1]>
  Date: Thu 18 Nov 2004 19:50:27
  Newsgroups: grc.news.feedback
  Message-ID: <95A5$C9D57.8CBE$2E284CEEC009E394A9D7@127.0.0.1>
  
  Would you consider honoring Expires headers?


Then I brought up the issue of Supersedes in:

  Message-ID: <95A6$9F686.EF93$2E284CEEC009E394A9D7@127.0.0.1>
  
> I'm asking that the original poster can change their position by
> posting a later update so that it's obvious that early replies
> refer to the original
> 

As in having the Supersedes header indicationg the replacement of the 
origibal posting


> and later replies thread from the update.
>

And they do... using either method of post replacement


>> How is 
>> 
>> "do a cancel and repost in the correct
>> timeline and current references"
>> 
>> any different or better than doing a Supersedes?
> 
> My understanding is that supercedes has lots of variations which
> is why I've not been able to it used in any of the many NG I visit. 
> 

Well there are not to be variations.
 
>> Furthermore how does Supercedes allow a greater facility than
>> Cancel and repost for exploitation of your above reference
>> examples? 
> 
> Well I'm saying I think Supercedes doesn't have greater facility !
> Simply because there would be different subthreads, one beginning
> with the original post, and another beginning with the supercede.
> How would a new visitor tell the difference ?
> 

How is that different from a Cancel and repost?


> A repost in a solid timeline, I suggest, makes it easy to follow
> replies to the repost.  
> 


What is a "solid timeline"? 
A article Supersedes provides a new Date just as a Cancel and repost.


>>> Yes ... I think that you have correctly recalled our logic and 
>>> reasoning at the time.
>>> 
>> 
>> Supersedes is not equivalent to a Cancel and repost.
> 
> We agree <g>
> 
>> Supersedes provides at a minimum proof that the original posting
>> has been replaced by inclusion of that MID in the Supersedes
>> Header. 
>  

> As above I don't have your faith that newsreaders will handle this
> openly (properly) 
>

The articles are handled in exactly the same way a Cancel and repost.


> and would allow someone to cause friction if they chose. 
> 

No more than would apply to a Cancel and repost.


-- 
Regards,
Guy

<URL:http://guysalias.batcave.net/pgpkeys.txt> [Updated: 4/29/2004]

"Kerry Liles" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:cnl4cm$ors$1@news.grc.com...
> Right click on the server name (GRC? or whatever) in the folder view and
> click on "properties"
> On the "server" tab you will see a checkbox that says:   "This server
> requires me to logon" - make sure that is ON and then put the same
> pass-phrase in both the "account name" and "password" fields. At that
point,
> I would shut down OE and restart it so that it get's it's ducks in a row.
>
I've done that for my OE.  but if I check the logon using secure password
auth.  I get an error.  Any ideas?  I did set my user name / pwd to be the
same.  I even put together a small QuickBasic program to generate 100 20
character id's for me to pick from.  Only 29k if anyone wants it.
Thanks.
Thorn

--- Error Message below --
00 bad authinfo param

Configuration:
   Account: news.grc.com
   Server: news.grc.com
   User name: QuinYY?hE5eBws8a5a
   Protocol: NNTP
   Port: 119
   Secure(SSL): 0
   Error Number: 500
   Code: 800ccc18

In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Jim Crowther wrote:

> On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 14:48:59, Guy wrote:
> 
>> Supersedes provides at a minimum proof that the original posting
>> has been replaced by inclusion of that MID in the Supersedes
>> Header. 
> 
> Thank-you.  However, I suspect that the GRC server would throw
> away that header anyway. :(
> 

Should not do so, that is a minimum requirement of Supersedes.


-- 
Regards,
Guy

<URL:http://guysalias.batcave.net/pgpkeys.txt> [Updated: 4/29/2004]

In message <cnpbee$jpd$1@news.grc.com>, Thorn 
<Thorn@--Remove--Full-Moon.com> writes
>
>"Kerry Liles" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
>news:cnl4cm$ors$1@news.grc.com...
>> Right click on the server name (GRC? or whatever) in the folder view 
>>and  click on "properties"  On the "server" tab you will see a 
>>checkbox that says:   "This server  requires me to logon" - make sure 
>>that is ON and then put the same  pass-phrase in both the "account 
>>name" and "password" fields. At that point,  I would shut down OE and 
>>restart it so that it get's it's ducks in a row.
>>
>I've done that for my OE.  but if I check the logon using secure password
>auth.  I get an error.  Any ideas?

Don't use it? It's not related to creating a Cecil. On my OE test setup 
that box is unchecked.

>I did set my user name / pwd to be the same.

You have a Cecil with your current settings.
Poster: [68.39.60.47] (21 Nov 2004 06:09:18 GMT) 
{LCrrh3zXcfZJXMcW9wnX4szKrFo}

>I even put together a small QuickBasic program to generate 100 20 
>character id's for me to pick from.  Only 29k if anyone wants it.

You just want to use one of them. Every time you change the user 
name/password you'll get a new Cecil. And then you can't cancel anything 
you posted with the previous Cecil unless you change back.

BTW, you want to now use a different one than the one you were trying 
when you got that error message because it's included in the error 
message you posted. Anyone who uses that phrase would have the same 
Cecil you had when you used it.

But you could use that Cecil to cancel that post first. :-) Keeping in 
mind that at least some people who already downloaded it will have it 
until they delete it themselves.

-- 
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets:
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm
 From invalid, Reply To works.
Kevin A.

Thorn wrote:

> 
> "Kerry Liles" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:cnl4cm$ors$1@news.grc.com...
>> Right click on the server name (GRC? or whatever) in the folder view and
>> click on "properties"
>> On the "server" tab you will see a checkbox that says:   "This server
>> requires me to logon" - make sure that is ON and then put the same
>> pass-phrase in both the "account name" and "password" fields. At that
> point,
>> I would shut down OE and restart it so that it get's it's ducks in a row.
>>
> I've done that for my OE.  but if I check the logon using secure password
> auth.  I get an error.  Any ideas? 

Don't check 'secure password auth'. Your Cecil-ID is being correctly
generated. You may want to change your passphrase if it is
'QuinYY?hE5eBws8a5a' though.

Regards,
Sam
-- 
 22:27:29 up 21:46,  2 users,  load average: 0.61, 0.49, 0.45

Guy wrote:

> In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Guy wrote:
> 
>> Message-ID: <95A7$EFB04.E35C$2E284CEEC009E394A9D7@127.0.0.1>
>>
> 
> The above article is a Cancel and repost of my prior post
> Message-ID: <95A7$96B88.9452$2E284CEEC009E394A9D7@127.0.0.1>

Hmm, it showed up as unread here. Though I think I see your point about
obvious evidence of a supersede in the headers.

Regards,
Sam
-- 
 22:29:18 up 21:48,  2 users,  load average: 1.16, 0.65, 0.51

In 6ITmEbU997nBFwRN@nospam.at.my.choice.of.UID
Jim Crowther mused:
> On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:54:14, Jim Crowther wrote:
>
>> Good idea, x/p and f/u to grc.techtalk. :)
>
> Where this thread appears as:
>
> <http://www.crowth.org.uk/odds/tthread.jpg>

Textual representation of threading as seen in OE...

+<jc> Follow-up 1
 +<jc> Follow-up 2
 +<jc> Follow-up 3
  +<jc> etc
 +<jc> 2nd Level
 +<mv> I am reminded...
  +<jc> Thank you...
   +<mv> Do we get...

Not as perfect as you might want ;-)

> Note that if I double-click (or open by other means) any of the
> messages denoted by a dot (as not on this newsgroup), the message
> with that MID is then displayed (as it exists locally).

What does Tripnuke do if the message is not available locally?

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 09:18:01, PnG wrote:

>In 6ITmEbU997nBFwRN@nospam.at.my.choice.of.UID
>Jim Crowther mused:
[]
>> Note that if I double-click (or open by other means) any of the
>> messages denoted by a dot (as not on this newsgroup), the message
>> with that MID is then displayed (as it exists locally).
>
>What does Tripnuke do if the message is not available locally?

It will request the article, and fetch it (if it is available) on the 
next collection.

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 22:29:50, Sam Schinke wrote:

>Guy wrote:
>
>> In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Guy wrote:
>>
>>> Message-ID: <95A7$EFB04.E35C$2E284CEEC009E394A9D7@127.0.0.1>
>>>
>>
>> The above article is a Cancel and repost of my prior post
>> Message-ID: <95A7$96B88.9452$2E284CEEC009E394A9D7@127.0.0.1>
>
>Hmm, it showed up as unread here. Though I think I see your point about
>obvious evidence of a supersede in the headers.

And here's how this subthread appears here:

<http://www.crowth.org.uk/odds/gthread.jpg>

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

"Sam Schinke" <sschinke@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:cnpcri$kab$1@news.grc.com...
> Don't check 'secure password auth'. Your Cecil-ID is being correctly
> generated. You may want to change your passphrase if it is
> 'QuinYY?hE5eBws8a5a' though.
>

Sam,

Just change my user name and pwd again?

Thanks

"Kevin A." <klex49@blackhole.2kevin.net> wrote in message
news:i1iuoqKSUDoBFA4B@blackhole.2kevin.net...
> Don't use it? It's not related to creating a Cecil. On my OE test setup
that box is unchecked.
>
> >I did set my user name / pwd to be the same.
>
> You have a Cecil with your current settings.
> Poster: [68.39.60.47] (21 Nov 2004 06:09:18 GMT)
> {LCrrh3zXcfZJXMcW9wnX4szKrFo}
>
> You just want to use one of them. Every time you change the user
> name/password you'll get a new Cecil. And then you can't cancel anything
> you posted with the previous Cecil unless you change back.

I'm only using the one.  I had it generate them so I could pick one, instead
of just typing at the keys.
It came up with some interesting ones.

>
> BTW, you want to now use a different one than the one you were trying
> when you got that error message because it's included in the error
> message you posted. Anyone who uses that phrase would have the same
> Cecil you had when you used it.

Those posts never got thru I think.

>
> But you could use that Cecil to cancel that post first. :-) Keeping in
> mind that at least some people who already downloaded it will have it
> until they delete it themselves.

Not worried about people having that.  I'm planning on changing my Cecil
within the next few minutes.


Thorn

Thorn <Thorn@--Remove--Full-Moon.com> wrote:
> "Sam Schinke" <sschinke@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
> news:cnpcri$kab$1@news.grc.com...
>> Don't check 'secure password auth'. Your Cecil-ID is being correctly
>> generated. You may want to change your passphrase if it is
>> 'QuinYY?hE5eBws8a5a' though.
>>
>
> Sam,
>
> Just change my user name and pwd again?
>
> Thanks

Yes.

-- 
Robert
GRC newsgroup tips - http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm
List of Lists - http://lists.gpick.com/
Privacy and Security - https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/ehowes/www/main-nf.htm

In grc.news.feedback Dutch wrote:

> Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Guy say:
> 
>>> Ok.  I'll buy that.
>>> A solution (in part) is to auto-cancel them using No Regrets.
>>> I don't know exactly how to do that at the moment, but would
>>> interested academically.  
  
>> Here is my solution:
>> Prior Message-ID is stored. When routine is to make a post first
>> it formats and sends a cancel message.
> [...]
> 
> That's about the same way my "Guidelines..." auto-posts work, Guy.
> I generate the cancel message for the next sequence with same
[ ]

So the first part of the MID is purely arbitrary correct?
Does:   string + unixtime + FQDN
seem a reasonable one?

And nttpx is appeending the recommendation as in:
 340 Ok, recommended ID <cnqh5i$18je$1@news.grc.com>
Correct?  Why does it do that and what criterion might it be using?  
I this just result of a random string generator?

In grc.news.feedback Dutch wrote:

> Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Mark V say:
> 
>> In grc.news.feedback Dutch wrote:
>> 
> [...]
>>> That's about the same way my "Guidelines..." auto-posts work, Guy.
>> [ ]
>> 
>> Great stuff.  Reading and learning from you.  TY.
> 
> That works both ways, Mark... :-)

Not having probed for it yet, do you now the minimum required (by grc) 
headers for a cancel control message?  Is Control: and Message-ID: 
sufficient?

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:10:15 -0800, Steve Gibson wrote:

(See full text above)

Two questions, if I may ?

1) Given how difficult I and a few others seem to have found the CECIL
procedure (I still can't get it working with OE or TB), how will new
arrivals work out how to do it ? If they can't post, Jim Crowther can't
point them in the right direction.

2) When I was first lurking around here, I only subscribed to .security,
..security software, and .techtalk. As your notice was only posted in .news,
it is possible that some may not have seen it yet, is it not ?
-- 
Bruce Henderson
'...and hold our large heads high...'

Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Mark V say:

> In grc.news.feedback Dutch wrote:
> 
>> Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Mark V say:
>> 
>>> In grc.news.feedback Dutch wrote:
>>> 
>> [...]
>>>> That's about the same way my "Guidelines..." auto-posts work, Guy.
>>> [ ]
>>> 
>>> Great stuff.  Reading and learning from you.  TY.
>> 
>> That works both ways, Mark... :-)
> 
> Not having probed for it yet, do you now the minimum required (by grc) 
> headers for a cancel control message?  Is Control: and Message-ID: 
> sufficient?

Here's what my "Guidelines" cancel message looks like:

-----------------------------------
From: Dutch <me2@privacy.net> 
Newsgroups: grc.test 
Subject: cmsg cancel <n04n325t59p01.38x@12078.net> 
Control: cancel <n04n325t59p01.38x@12078.net> 
User-Agent: NNTPX v1.0 - Auto-post 

Cancel my post <n04n325t59p01.38x@12078.net>
-----------------------------------

It's then sent by NNTPX with the proper CECIL-ID of course. I use this
same cancel format on a few other private groups, so I haven't taken the
time to determine if Steve's server actually honors the "Subject:...",
"Control:...", or body text. AFAIK, that covers all of the commonly used
formats where cancels are honored anyway... 

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm

Mike Richter said in:<news:cnnts2$2kcd$1@news.grc.com>:
> Le Flake wrote:
> 
>> When you open up GRC newsgroups in Netscape... and the popup comes up 
>> asking you for your user-id, type it in, click ok or whatever and 
>> another very similar popup comes up asking for your password. Type in 
>> the same value as you did for user-id and bingo... you have activated 
>> CECIL.
>> 
>> If that isn't the problem, please get back to me. I'll then try and 
>> replicate what you're seeing...
> 
> That's what I needed to knwo. It appears to be working.
> 
> My error was in assuming that I needed to enter the ID and password into 
> Netscape for Communicator to verify when I typed it in. Now, having hit 
> myself on the head at the simplicity of the solution, I realize that 
> this is for the server to 'verify' - in this case, to accept as a CecilID.

I've added mention of a popup to my explanation, but I'm open to
suggestions (and corrections: I'm working blind) if there's a (still
brief) way to make the Netscape etc blurb better?

http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla|Netscape|Thunderbird
-- 

Milly

Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Mark V say:

> In grc.news.feedback Dutch wrote:
> 
>> Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Guy say:
[...]
>>> Here is my solution:
>>> Prior Message-ID is stored. When routine is to make a post first
>>> it formats and sends a cancel message.
>> [...]
>> 
>> That's about the same way my "Guidelines..." auto-posts work, Guy.
>> I generate the cancel message for the next sequence with same
> [ ]
> 
> So the first part of the MID is purely arbitrary correct?
> Does:   string + unixtime + FQDN
> seem a reasonable one?

Actually, the entire MID is simply a construct with the "@" being the
only element that most be a specific character. By RFC though, the MID
needs to constructed so as to be unique to that message for an extended
period, usually measured in years. The FQDN part is simply a part of the
MID, and while convention says it should actually exist, in fact it can
be almost anything you'd like. OTOH, NNTP server operators may configure
their setups to always generate MID, or more commonly as Steve has it,
that his server only generates the MID if one is not already present. I
use that feature for my "cancel" messages just so I don't need to
generate another unique MID for them...

> And nttpx is appeending the recommendation as in:
>  340 Ok, recommended ID <cnqh5i$18je$1@news.grc.com>
> Correct?  Why does it do that and what criterion might it be using?  
> I this just result of a random string generator?

NNTPX just sends whatever header/body copy is in its text file argument.
If a MID is included, such as I do with the "Guidelines" posts, then
Steve's server accepts it as is. If I do not include a posting MID
header, as in my Guidelines "Cancel" messages, then Steve's server will
generate one based on whatever hash his particular software uses to
prepend his FQDN. I'm not sure just what criteria the various NNTP
server apps use to generate MIDS, but a time/date based algorithm plus
some other local characteristics does seem most likely...  

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm

Bruce Henderson <bhhms@mindless.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:10:15 -0800, Steve Gibson wrote:
>
> (See full text above)
>
> Two questions, if I may ?
>
> 1) Given how difficult I and a few others seem to have found the CECIL
> procedure (I still can't get it working with OE or TB), how will new
> arrivals work out how to do it ? If they can't post, Jim Crowther
> can't point them in the right direction.

You have a CECIL III in your post, so you have it working for OE.  Read
everything Milly wrote here to check for yourself.

http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#cancel

> 2) When I was first lurking around here, I only subscribed to
> .security, .security software, and .techtalk. As your notice was only
> posted in .news, it is possible that some may not have seen it yet,
> is it not ?

Yes, it is true.  That has always been true.  But when Steve starts
enforcing CECIL, the poster will get a rejection message from the news
server explaining why and what to do.  Steve already has that for HTML,
attachments over 20k, and excessive quoting.  I'm sure he will update this
page

http://grc.com/discussions.htm

.... which Milly has been doing with her page.  BTW, Milly has updated her
page with the new CECIL information from Steve.

http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm

-- 
Robert
GRC newsgroup tips - http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm
List of Lists - http://lists.gpick.com/
Privacy and Security - https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/ehowes/www/main-nf.htm

Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Robert Wycoff say:

> Bruce Henderson <bhhms@mindless.com> wrote:
[...]
>> 1) Given how difficult I and a few others seem to have found the CECIL
>> procedure (I still can't get it working with OE or TB), how will new
>> arrivals work out how to do it ? If they can't post, Jim Crowther
>> can't point them in the right direction.
> 
> You have a CECIL III in your post, so you have it working for OE.  Read
> everything Milly wrote here to check for yourself.

Bruce posted this with his slightly outdated version of Dialog... :-)

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm

In grc.news.feedback Dutch wrote:

> Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Mark V say:
> 
>> In grc.news.feedback Dutch wrote:
>> 
>>> Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Mark V say:
[ ]

>> Not having probed for it yet, do you now the minimum required (by
>> grc) headers for a cancel control message?  Is Control: and
>> Message-ID: sufficient?
> 
> Here's what my "Guidelines" cancel message looks like:
> 
> -----------------------------------
> From: Dutch <me2@privacy.net> 
> Newsgroups: grc.test 
> Subject: cmsg cancel <n04n325t59p01.38x@12078.net> 
> Control: cancel <n04n325t59p01.38x@12078.net> 
> User-Agent: NNTPX v1.0 - Auto-post 
> 
> Cancel my post <n04n325t59p01.38x@12078.net>
> -----------------------------------
> 
> It's then sent by NNTPX with the proper CECIL-ID of course. I use
> this same cancel format on a few other private groups, so I
> haven't taken the time to determine if Steve's server actually
> honors the "Subject:...", "Control:...", or body text. AFAIK, that
> covers all of the commonly used formats where cancels are honored
> anyway... 

Thanks.  "commonly works" is a great guide.  ;)
I suspected  From: and  Newsgroups:  might be required.
I can certainly add a User-Agent: header as well and it seems 
"right" to do so.  (for the original post anyway)

So you do *not* submit a new MID for a cancellation?  Only the 
reference MID for the target of the cancel (Control:  blah blah )

Or does nntpx auto-gen...   Never mind.  I'l check it.

In grc.news.feedback Dutch wrote:

> Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Mark V say:
> 
>> In grc.news.feedback Dutch wrote:
>> 
>>> Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Guy say:
> [...]
>>>> Here is my solution:
>>>> Prior Message-ID is stored. When routine is to make a post
>>>> first it formats and sends a cancel message.

Got that.  I specify my MID and store it.  Actually autogenerating a 
batch file at the posting process time as well here.  Good 
tips/examples to work with of course.  ;)
 

[ ]
>> So the first part of the MID is purely arbitrary correct?
>> Does:   string + unixtime + FQDN
>> seem a reasonable one?
> 
> Actually, the entire MID is simply a construct with the "@" being
> the only element that most be a specific character. By RFC though,

[ snipped what I should have read up on myself ;) ]


> feature for my "cancel" messages just so I don't need to generate
> another unique MID for them... 

Check!

>> And nttpx is appeending the recommendation as in:
>>  340 Ok, recommended ID <cnqh5i$18je$1@news.grc.com>
>> Correct?  Why does it do that and what criterion might it be
>> using?  I this just result of a random string generator?

Oops.  This is data returned by Steve's server then?  If that is 
true, then I could just capture and store the GRC auto-generated MID 
for use in Cancel ops. 

> NNTPX just sends whatever header/body copy is in its text file
> argument. If a MID is included, such as I do with the "Guidelines"
> posts, then Steve's server accepts it as is. If I do not include a
> posting MID header, as in my Guidelines "Cancel" messages, then
> Steve's server will generate one based on whatever hash his
> particular software uses to prepend his FQDN. I'm not sure just
> what criteria the various NNTP server apps use to generate MIDS,
> but a time/date based algorithm plus some other local
> characteristics does seem most likely...  


Thank you!  (I should have not spread this over two sub-treads <G>)

If more I will stay >here<.

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:36:44, Bruce Henderson wrote:

>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:10:15 -0800, Steve Gibson wrote:
>
>(See full text above)
>
>Two questions, if I may ?
>
>1) Given how difficult I and a few others seem to have found the CECIL
>procedure (I still can't get it working with OE or TB), how will new
>arrivals work out how to do it ? If they can't post, Jim Crowther can't
>point them in the right direction.

Perhaps Steve could be persuaded (if it's a SMOP) to allow 
unauthenticated posting to grc.test, and make it clear to new users in 
the new instructions that this is the case.

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Mark V say:

> In grc.news.feedback Dutch wrote:
>> Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Mark V say:
>>> In grc.news.feedback Dutch wrote:
[...]
> Thanks.  "commonly works" is a great guide.  ;)
> I suspected  From: and  Newsgroups:  might be required.
> I can certainly add a User-Agent: header as well and it seems 
> "right" to do so.  (for the original post anyway)

I used the term "commonly works" because there is a great deal of
flexibility available to NNTP server operators, and private servers in
particular are subject to the needs and whims of the operator in what
they'll allow. Steve's "CECIL" setup is a just one example of that, plus
the various other posting filters used here and on other private
servers.

Yep, the "User-Agent:" header isn't required...

> So you do *not* submit a new MID for a cancellation?  Only the 
> reference MID for the target of the cancel (Control:  blah blah )

My cancel message itself includes only the referenced MID to be
canceled, and no MID header of its own. Because its missing, Steve's
server will just assign a "...@news.grc.com" MID to it.

> Or does nntpx auto-gen...   Never mind.  I'l check it.

NNTPX is just CLI transmission tool, sort of a "Telnet template" if you
will. It generates no headers on it's own, relying on the user created
text to supply them. It does do some rudimentary checking to make sure
that a "Subject:" and "From:" header, and a header/body separator, exist
though.

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm

In message <fnwmfqrdh97j$.14d8hrpkm1w4b$.dlg@40tude.net>, Bruce 
Henderson <bhhms@mindless.com> writes
>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:10:15 -0800, Steve Gibson wrote:
>
>(See full text above)
>
>Two questions, if I may ?
>
>1) Given how difficult I and a few others seem to have found the CECIL
>procedure (I still can't get it working with OE or TB),

See if this helps, I did it the other day as a test to get the steps for 
someone else.

[This is for OE6, I think earlier versions were the same]


Tools | Accounts | News tab | [highlight your GRC account] | Properties 
| Server tab.

Check the box "This server requires me to log on".

Enter your chosen pass phrase in both the "Account Name" and "Password" 
boxes. It must be the same in both boxes, it should not be a simple 
phrase that someone would guess.

Do _not_ check the "Log on using Secure Password Authentication".

OK your way out.

And Milly has updated [and is still working on] her page to include more 
information for TB users.

>how will new arrivals work out how to do it ? If they can't post, Jim 
>Crowther can't point them in the right direction.

I like Jim's idea of .test being a Cecil Free group. :-)

>2) When I was first lurking around here, I only subscribed to .security,
>.security software, and .techtalk. As your notice was only posted in .news,
>it is possible that some may not have seen it yet, is it not ?

It might be a good idea for Steve to post something in all the groups. 
Or for someone else to do it if he doesn't mind.
-- 
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets:
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm
 From invalid, Reply To works.
Kevin A.

Milly wrote:

> Mike Richter said in:<news:cnnts2$2kcd$1@news.grc.com>:

>>My error was in assuming that I needed to enter the ID and password into 
>>Netscape for Communicator to verify when I typed it in. Now, having hit 
>>myself on the head at the simplicity of the solution, I realize that 
>>this is for the server to 'verify' - in this case, to accept as a CecilID.
> 
> 
> I've added mention of a popup to my explanation, but I'm open to
> suggestions (and corrections: I'm working blind) if there's a (still
> brief) way to make the Netscape etc blurb better?
> 
> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla|Netscape|Thunderbird

Your writeup is fine; what I failed to do was *think*. (Not the first 
time, probably not the last. I'm not proud of that.)

I think I'll drop by test and see if cancelling works. I have the box 
checked for authentication and told the manager to remember login and 
password - but I'm not certain that it is working - I'm not getting the 
popup. It's logical that I wouldn't, but I still want to check.

Thanks, Milly, for a page which makes everything clear to the thinking 
user. Trying to make it foolproof fails because we fools have so many 
ways to blunder.

Mike
-- 
mrichter@cpl.net
http://www.mrichter.com/

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:08:42, Mike Richter wrote:

>but I'm not certain that it is working

It's working. :)

Poster: [216.117.217.155] (21 Nov 2004 19:13:18 GMT) {mzEacBktPkt0qoCDzcBftx0GI4o}

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

Jim Crowther wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 22:29:50, Sam Schinke wrote:
>>Hmm, it showed up as unread here. Though I think I see your point about
>>obvious evidence of a supersede in the headers.
> 
> And here's how this subthread appears here:
> 
> <http://www.crowth.org.uk/odds/gthread.jpg>

That looks a tad confusing. *g*

Regards,
Sam
-- 
 11:22:29 up 1 day, 10:41,  2 users,  load average: 0.45, 0.39, 0.30

Kevin A. said in:<news:W0mzoDx8asnBFA2g@blackhole.2kevin.net>:
> In message <cnmcs3$1mtq$2@news.grc.com>, gragor <not@this.time.ca> 
>>"Robert Wycoff" <rwycoff@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
>>news:cnld32$v5l$2@news.grc.com...
>> [...]
> In OE6 which you appear to be using:
> 
> Tools | Accounts | News tab | [highlight your GRC account] | Properties 
>| Server tab.
> 
> Check the box "This server requires me to log on".
> 
> Enter your chosen pass phrase in both the "Account Name" and "Password" 
> boxes.
> 
> Do _not_ check the "Log on using Secure Password Authentication".
> 
> OK your way out.

I just added this, too :-

http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Outlook_Express

These all point to roughly the same spot :-

http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Outlook_Express
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla|Netscape|Thunderbird
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Forte_Agent
-- 

Milly

Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Mark V say:

> In grc.news.feedback Dutch wrote:
> 
>> Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Mark V say:
>> 
[...]
> Check!
> 
>>> And nttpx is appeending the recommendation as in:
>>>  340 Ok, recommended ID <cnqh5i$18je$1@news.grc.com>
>>> Correct?  Why does it do that and what criterion might it be
>>> using?  I this just result of a random string generator?
> 
> Oops.  This is data returned by Steve's server then?  If that is 
> true, then I could just capture and store the GRC auto-generated MID 
> for use in Cancel ops. 

Yep, Steve's server is just reporting how the post was handled on its
end, and yes, the server assigned MID could be captured at that point
for cancellation use.

>> NNTPX just sends whatever header/body copy is in its text file
>> argument. If a MID is included, such as I do with the "Guidelines"
>> posts, then Steve's server accepts it as is. If I do not include a
>> posting MID header, as in my Guidelines "Cancel" messages, then
>> Steve's server will generate one based on whatever hash his
>> particular software uses to prepend his FQDN. I'm not sure just
>> what criteria the various NNTP server apps use to generate MIDS,
>> but a time/date based algorithm plus some other local
>> characteristics does seem most likely...  
> 
> Thank you!  (I should have not spread this over two sub-treads <G>)

As long as the MID is generated to unique to that post, the actual
generation method is pretty irrelevant. There are so many different ways
to generate a unique alpha-numeric character sequence that I just
haven't found any particular need to decode any of them. Or I'm just
been too lazy.. :-)

> If more I will stay >here<.

We probably should have moved this to techtalk a ways back... ;-)

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm

Dutch <me2@privacy.net> wrote:
> Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Robert Wycoff
> say:
>
>> Bruce Henderson <bhhms@mindless.com> wrote:
> [...]
>>> 1) Given how difficult I and a few others seem to have found the
>>> CECIL procedure (I still can't get it working with OE or TB), how
>>> will new arrivals work out how to do it ? If they can't post, Jim
>>> Crowther can't point them in the right direction.
>>
>> You have a CECIL III in your post, so you have it working for OE.
>> Read everything Milly wrote here to check for yourself.
>
> Bruce posted this with his slightly outdated version of Dialog... :-)

Oops.  Falls on sword.

-- 
Robert
GRC newsgroup tips - http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm
List of Lists - http://lists.gpick.com/
Privacy and Security - https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/ehowes/www/main-nf.htm

In message <19x7wgxmrdjsi$.dlg@0O.0O>, Milly <?@?.?.invalid> writes
[..]
>I just added this, too :-
>
>http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Outlook_Express

I see that links to Steve's page, which has perfectly good instructions. 
Except for the times that people follow the instructions literally and 
use his "example" name and email address. :-(

>These all point to roughly the same spot :-
>
>http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Outlook_Express
>http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla|Netscape|Thunderbird
>http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Forte_Agent

You're going to have to charge extra for all the extra time you're 
spending updating. I agree about glossing over the "layer of potential 
confusion". :-)
-- 
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets:
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm
 From invalid, Reply To works.
Kevin A.

In grc.news.feedback Dutch wrote:

[ ]
>>>> And nttpx is appeending the recommendation as in:
>>>>  340 Ok, recommended ID <cnqh5i$18je$1@news.grc.com>
[ ]
>> Oops.  This is data returned by Steve's server then?  If that is 
>> true, then I could just capture and store the GRC auto-generated
>> MID for use in Cancel ops. 
> 
> Yep, Steve's server is just reporting how the post was handled on
> its end, and yes, the server assigned MID could be captured at
> that point for cancellation use.

Yes indeed.  It works fine and (very very likely) ensures no 
possibility of duplicate MIDs.
[ ]

>> Thank you!  (I should have not spread this over two sub-treads
>> If more I will stay >here<.
> We probably should have moved this to techtalk a ways back... ;-)

Yep.  But I am done now.  ;)   Things have been a bit wild of late 
<G>  Chaotic?  Frenetic at the least....   (not good excuse).

> As long as the MID is generated to unique to that post, the actual
> generation method is pretty irrelevant. There are so many
> different ways to generate a unique alpha-numeric character
> sequence that I just haven't found any particular need to decode
> any of them. Or I'm just been too lazy.. :-)

Some things are not worth the effort for practical purposes.  :)

Using (and storing) the server-generated one is *fine*.  I have my 
script done, working, even captures ERROR: messages, creates a cancel 
file and a batchfile for same, both with Date-time stamped filenames.  
All works as expected and I can now shelve the project for an 
indefinite amount of time. <G>

Thanks to you and Guy for all that you provided.  It was fun.  :)

Kevin A. said in:<news:Du1WeHVPOPoBFA9I@blackhole.2kevin.net>:
> In message <19x7wgxmrdjsi$.dlg@0O.0O>, Milly <?@?.?.invalid> writes
> [..]
>>I just added this, too :-
>>
>>http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Outlook_Express
> 
> I see that links to Steve's page, which has perfectly good instructions. 
> Except for the times that people follow the instructions literally and 
> use his "example" name and email address. :-(

Oh yes, I meant to cover that. Done, thanks :)

>>These all point to roughly the same spot :-
>>
>>http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Outlook_Express
>>http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla|Netscape|Thunderbird
>>http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Forte_Agent
> 
> You're going to have to charge extra for all the extra time you're 
> spending updating. I agree about glossing over the "layer of potential 
> confusion". :-)

Yep, it's now twice the price.
-- 

Milly

Corrected Post
>>> 1) Given how difficult I and a few others seem to have found the CECIL
>>> procedure (I still can't get it working with OE or TB), how will new
>>> arrivals work out how to do it ? If they can't post, Jim Crowther
>>> can't point them in the right direction.
>> 
Thunderbird has a bug.   It won't even download Netscape secure groups

Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Mark V say:

> In grc.news.feedback Dutch wrote:
> 
[...]
>> We probably should have moved this to techtalk a ways back... ;-)
> 
> Yep.  But I am done now.  ;)   Things have been a bit wild of late 
> <G>  Chaotic?  Frenetic at the least....   (not good excuse).

 :-))

>> As long as the MID is generated to unique to that post, the actual
>> generation method is pretty irrelevant. There are so many
>> different ways to generate a unique alpha-numeric character
>> sequence that I just haven't found any particular need to decode
>> any of them. Or I'm just been too lazy.. :-)
> 
> Some things are not worth the effort for practical purposes.  :)
> 
> Using (and storing) the server-generated one is *fine*.  I have my 
> script done, working, even captures ERROR: messages, creates a cancel 
> file and a batchfile for same, both with Date-time stamped filenames.  
> All works as expected and I can now shelve the project for an 
> indefinite amount of time. <G>

If I decide to give up the "Guidelines" auto-posts, I'll keep you in
mind... ;-)

> Thanks to you and Guy for all that you provided.  It was fun.  :)

That it was! 

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:47:24 +0000, Milly wrote:

> I've added mention of a popup to my explanation, but I'm open to
> suggestions (and corrections: I'm working blind) if there's a (still
> brief) way to make the Netscape etc blurb better?
> 
> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla|Netscape|Thunderbird

Having finally stumbled into the correct way of CECIL-enabling Thunderbird,
entirely by accident, after much failure, it strikes me that the thing that
had me baffled was that, whereas Dialog (and OE ?) offers username and
password boxes for completion at any time, Thunderbird only offers these
boxes when you try to access the GRC server, having previously ticked the
'Always request authentication' box and spent days looking for the 'other
two' boxes. And even when you do try to go to the server, you are offered
each box in turn, so you then get to stare at the first popup box wondering
how to put in both required entries. It's only when you have sent away the
first popup box that you get offered the second, whereupon the sun comes
out, the angels sing, and all is well again.
Thought I would write this out, in case it gives you more of a 'feel' for
the problem which is seemingly catching out wise folks, as well as me. I
don't know if you can enhance your description any further, to clarify the
one-after-the-other sequence ?

1) Tick the 'Always request authentication' box.
2) Click OK
3) Click on the GRC news server link in Thunderbird, as if visiting the mg
as normally.
4) You will be offered a popup box in which to enter a username. Put your
passphrase in the box.
5) Click OK
6) You will be offered another popup box in which to enter a password. Put
the same passphrase in this box.
7) Click OK
8) Start cancelling your posts....
-- 
Bruce Henderson
'...and hold our large heads high...'

Greg R wrote:
> Corrected Post
> 
>>>>1) Given how difficult I and a few others seem to have found the CECIL
>>>>procedure (I still can't get it working with OE or TB), how will new
>>>>arrivals work out how to do it ? If they can't post, Jim Crowther
>>>>can't point them in the right direction.
>>>
> Thunderbird has a bug.   It won't even download Netscape secure groups

Thunderbird 0.9 seems to be "CECIL'ing" just fine here using the same 
setup procedure as Mozilla Mail/News. I don't know about a secure group 
bug in T-bird, but Steve's server and CECIL setup do not require a 
secure password authentication in any event. Make sure it is *not* 
checked in the server settings...

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm

Dutch wrote:
> Greg R wrote:
> 
>> Corrected Post
>>
>>>>> 1) Given how difficult I and a few others seem to have found the CECIL
>>>>> procedure (I still can't get it working with OE or TB), how will new
>>>>> arrivals work out how to do it ? If they can't post, Jim Crowther
>>>>> can't point them in the right direction.
>>>>
>>>>
>> Thunderbird has a bug.   It won't even download Netscape secure groups
> 
> 
> Thunderbird 0.9 seems to be "CECIL'ing" just fine here using the same 
> setup procedure as Mozilla Mail/News. I don't know about a secure group 
> bug in T-bird, but Steve's server and CECIL setup do not require a 
> secure password authentication in any event. Make sure it is *not* 
> checked in the server settings...
> 

I've been posting (using Cecil) from T'Bird for months, now.  I post 
throughout grc, and to other groups via my ISP's news server, without 
problems.

-- 
~ Rosanne
Don�t save my sneakemail address � when it gets spammed, it gets changed.

Dutch wrote:
> Greg R wrote:
> 
?
>> Thunderbird has a bug.   It won't even download Netscape secure groups
> 
> Thunderbird 0.9 seems to be "CECIL'ing" just fine here using the same 
> setup procedure as Mozilla Mail/News. 
> 

ditto here TB 0.9, cecil'ing ok, setup process
was sub-minute and I'm not known for wizardry.

Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard poo_gimmal say:

> Dutch wrote:
>> Greg R wrote:
>> 
> ?
>>> Thunderbird has a bug.   It won't even download Netscape secure groups
>> 
>> Thunderbird 0.9 seems to be "CECIL'ing" just fine here using the same 
>> setup procedure as Mozilla Mail/News. 
> 
> ditto here TB 0.9, cecil'ing ok, setup process
> was sub-minute and I'm not known for wizardry.

Now I'm back to my "regularly scheduled newsreader", but I've sure got a
collection of them installed now... And all "CECIL'ing" just fine... :-)

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm

In article <1bhie2997xlcn.1jt99hre4sdtv$.dlg@40tude.net> Bruce
Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:47:24 +0000, Milly wrote:
> >
> > http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla|Netscape|Thunderbird
> 
[...]

> Thought I would write this out, in case it gives you more of a 'feel' for
> the problem which is seemingly catching out wise folks, as well as me. I
> don't know if you can enhance your description any further, to clarify the
> one-after-the-other sequence ?
> 
> 1) Tick the 'Always request authentication' box.
> 2) Click OK
> 3) Click on the GRC news server link in Thunderbird, as if visiting the mg
> as normally.
> 4) You will be offered a popup box in which to enter a username. Put your
> passphrase in the box.
> 5) Click OK
> 6) You will be offered another popup box in which to enter a password. Put
> the same passphrase in this box.
> 7) Click OK
> 8) Start cancelling your posts....
> 
The process is also "sticky," yes?  In other words, the process only
needs to be performed once and occurs automagically after that.

-- 
Alan
Hermital's Original Essays and Shadowless Poetry:
< http://www.cox-internet.com/hermital/index.htm >

In article <qpu1q0520570utec2o0a2tvaj7pp87n5qp@4ax.com> Greg R wrote:
> 
> Corrected Post
> >>> 1) Given how difficult I and a few others seem to have found the CECIL
> >>> procedure (I still can't get it working with OE or TB), how will new
> >>> arrivals work out how to do it ? If they can't post, Jim Crowther
> >>> can't point them in the right direction.
> >>
> Thunderbird has a bug.   It won't even download Netscape secure groups

The Netscape secure groups are on the secnews.netscape.com server. 
You need to subscribe to it as a new newsgroup.

Click here for the Tbird group:

https://secnews.netscape.com/netscape.mozilla.thunderbird

-- 
Alan
Hermital's Original Essays and Shadowless Poetry:
< http://www.cox-internet.com/hermital/index.htm >

Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard hermital say:

> In article <1bhie2997xlcn.1jt99hre4sdtv$.dlg@40tude.net> Bruce
> Henderson wrote:
>> On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:47:24 +0000, Milly wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla|Netscape|Thunderbird
>> 
> [...]
> 
>> Thought I would write this out, in case it gives you more of a 'feel' for
>> the problem which is seemingly catching out wise folks, as well as me. I
>> don't know if you can enhance your description any further, to clarify the
>> one-after-the-other sequence ?
>> 
>> 1) Tick the 'Always request authentication' box.
[...]
>> 8) Start cancelling your posts....
>> 
> The process is also "sticky," yes?  In other words, the process only
> needs to be performed once and occurs automagically after that.

It's "sticky" as long as you check the "Password Manager" box for each
entry. Note also that you cannot cancel your posts that were made prior
to using your CECIL-ID...

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:07:46 +0000, Bruce Henderson <bhhms@mindless.com>
wrote:

>1) Tick the 'Always request authentication' box.
>2) Click OK
>3) Click on the GRC news server link in Thunderbird, as if visiting the mg
>as normally.
>4) You will be offered a popup box in which to enter a username. Put your
>passphrase in the box.
>5) Click OK
>6) You will be offered another popup box in which to enter a password. Put
>the same passphrase in this box.
>7) Click OK
>8) Start cancelling your posts....

I noticed the same sort of "confusion" about the process of settings
being available or greyed out. Quite a few seemed to have trouble 
with OE (which I don't use). To that end, I too posted a 'definitive'
step-by-step for the FreeAgent reader. Maybe (this is where I get evil),
Milly can incorporate How-To sublinks for the webpage. 
Each reader type naturally - (ducks, runs and hides) -)

In message <dlc2q05s8lds951ab7euiajb61guico6jl@4ax.com>, Bazza 
<Anon@jeack.com.au> writes
>On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:07:46 +0000, Bruce Henderson <bhhms@mindless.com>
>wrote:
>
>>1) Tick the 'Always request authentication' box.
>>2) Click OK
>>3) Click on the GRC news server link in Thunderbird, as if visiting the mg
>>as normally.
[..]
>
>I noticed the same sort of "confusion" about the process of settings
>being available or greyed out. Quite a few seemed to have trouble
>with OE (which I don't use). To that end, I too posted a 'definitive'
>step-by-step for the FreeAgent reader. Maybe (this is where I get evil),
>Milly can incorporate How-To sublinks for the webpage.
>Each reader type naturally - (ducks, runs and hides) -)

You're already immortalized. :-)
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Forte_Agent
-- 
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets:
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm
 From invalid, Reply To works.
Kevin A.

In article Sam Schinke says...

> Jim Crowther wrote:
> > On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 22:29:50, Sam Schinke wrote:
> >>Hmm, it showed up as unread here. Though I think I see your point about
> >>obvious evidence of a supersede in the headers.
> > 
> > And here's how this subthread appears here:
> > 
> > <http://www.crowth.org.uk/odds/gthread.jpg>
> 
> That looks a tad confusing. *g*
> 
> Regards,
> Sam

Guy, it may help clear up where our positions are different.
Your reposted message showed up here unread and a new subthread.

Are you saying that a supersede will create exactly the same outcome?
My understanding is that supersede would be different and maintain
the single original thread by allowing existing replies to link
to the supersede message. If this happens I'd be worried that
a reworded supersede message could easily be used to cause strife
with authors of existing replies.
And new replies to the supersede message would spawn a new subthread
as normal as you just demonstratd with the cancel/repost.

Ash 

 

Guy,

I've replied to much of this post in your new subthread repost.

Guy says..
> Because to the reader, the aricles whether a Supercedes or Cancel and 
> repost appear the same.

If you are saying that supercede also moves the existing thread as you
just demonstrated then I'm happy and agree.

> > Why?  A thread moves forward not back, when I reply to a post why
> > should I be happy that the original poster goes back and edits an
> > earlier post so that later posts look OT or misquoted ? 
> 
> And does the same not apply to a Cancel and repost?

The issue in my mind is that supercede will not move the existing
thread. 

> > A repost in a solid timeline, I suggest, makes it easy to follow
> > replies to the repost.  
> 
> What is a "solid timeline"? 
> A article Supersedes provides a new Date just as a Cancel and repost.

As in journal, unable to change existing message only delete and
repost as a later message which attracts its own new subthread,
this would move the existing thread - leaving the first reply
hanging if the deleted message was the original post, but linking
the first reply to the message before the deleted message otherwise.

I'm regarding supercede as being similar to a webforum where a user
can edit an existing post within a thread without breaking existing
references.
 
Ash

In message <Xns95A8DE7B9E015z9zzaQ2btw@news.grc.com>, Mark V 
<notvalid@nul.invalid> writes
>In grc.news.feedback Mark V wrote:
[..]
>> I replied (or intended to) that once CECIL Client-side strings
>>  eg passphrase and username
>> were entered and used to post, that thereafter no alterations to
>> user posted information such as posting name, email address et al.
>>  would disturb the No Regrets cancellation system.
>
>Which is not correct at all.  I am in error.  My apologies to any
>that were mislead.
>
>I have discovered ( or forgot and re-discovered ) that at a bare
>minimum not only does the authentication information need to be the
>same as when posted. but also the Posting Name and e-mail information
>as well must match in order to Cancel a post here.

I posted a message just now, then started a cancel message. Before 
sending it I changed the domain on the MID [removed the sub domain], 
changed my email name and address [same domain though] and it certainly 
appears to have canceled OK. I got no error message and the post is 
missing in .test via the web interface.

>And if this is not correct or not fully correct, please yell at me!
><G>

I'll post again, do a follow-up as a place holder, then cancel the first 
one after a few minutes.

>I would appreciate an authoritative (Steve?) description of the exact
>fields that require an exact match in order to successfully complete
>a Cancel request.

My newsreader won't let me cancel something I didn't post, so if I post 
form OE, I can't cancel in TP. I may be able to do the opposite. But 
AFAIK, all that's necessary is the MID and the Cecil on this server.

-- 
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets:
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm
 From invalid, Reply To works.
Kevin A.

In message <cnrnsg$24ng$1@news.grc.com>, gragor <not@this.time.ca> 
writes
>
>I unchecked to log in box and it came through

Twice on the first message, 3 times on this one. :-) OE keeps trying 
when it gets an error, even if the post goes through.

Make sure that you _don't_ have "Log on using Secure Password 
Authentication" checked. You can't use it here, and I think that's 
what's generating your SSL error. BICBW. The other place to check is on 
the Advanced Tab, be sure that "This server requires a secure 
connection" is _not_ checked, although you there was no reason to have 
been messing around over there.

-- 
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets:
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm
 From invalid, Reply To works.
Kevin A.

Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard gragor say:

> I unchecked to log in box and it came through

Did you make sure the "Log on using Secure Password Authentication" box
was *not* checked? And to make absolutely sure the "Account name:" and
"Password:" entries exactly match, try typing in your word/phrase in the
"Account name:" field, and then select, copy, and paste it into the
"Password:" field.

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm

"Kevin A." <klex49@blackhole.2kevin.net> wrote in message
news:24o7LkL6TOoBFAKb@blackhole.2kevin.net...
snip

> >1) Given how difficult I and a few others seem to have found the CECIL
> >procedure (I still can't get it working with OE or TB),
>
that's me

I've been trying to get a Cecil id for a few days now... no such luck

I've been doing the following over and over again without success... sigh
and have had no luck cancelling messages either...


> [This is for OE6, I think earlier versions were the same]
>
>
> Tools | Accounts | News tab | [highlight your GRC account] | Properties
> | Server tab.
>
> Check the box "This server requires me to log on".
>
> Enter your chosen pass phrase in both the "Account Name" and "Password"
> boxes. It must be the same in both boxes, it should not be a simple
> phrase that someone would guess.
>
> Do _not_ check the "Log on using Secure Password Authentication".
>
> OK your way out.


now if I, or maybe you, can't find the Cecil Id on this message I have
failed again.....

thanks for your help to everyone on this challenge Kevin
Thanks to everyone else too.

gragor

"Kevin A." <klex49@blackhole.2kevin.net> wrote in message
news:24o7LkL6TOoBFAKb@blackhole.2kevin.net...
snip

> >1) Given how difficult I and a few others seem to have found the CECIL
> >procedure (I still can't get it working with OE or TB),
>
that's me

I've been trying to get a Cecil id for a few days now... no such luck

I've been doing the following over and over again without success... sigh
and have had no luck cancelling messages either...


> [This is for OE6, I think earlier versions were the same]
>
>
> Tools | Accounts | News tab | [highlight your GRC account] | Properties
> | Server tab.
>
> Check the box "This server requires me to log on".
>
> Enter your chosen pass phrase in both the "Account Name" and "Password"
> boxes. It must be the same in both boxes, it should not be a simple
> phrase that someone would guess.
>
> Do _not_ check the "Log on using Secure Password Authentication".
>
> OK your way out.


now if I, or maybe you, can't find the Cecil Id on this message I have
failed again.....

thanks for your help to everyone on this challenge Kevin
Thanks to everyone else too.

gragor

it wouldn't post my test or my response to you ......

Outlook Express could not post your message.  Subject 'Re: gragor testing
Cecil id - take 2', Account: 'news.grc.com', Server: 'news.grc.com',
Protocol: NNTP, Server Response: 'NNTPERROR: 430 No such article', Port:
119, Secure(SSL): No, Error Number: 0x800CCCA9

Outlook Express could not post your message.  Subject 'Re: EVERYONE! -- 
Please switch .... ', Account: 'news.grc.com', Server: 'news.grc.com',
Protocol: NNTP, Server Response: '441 Article Not Found or Previously
Removed.', Port: 119, Secure(SSL): No, Server Error: 441, Error Number:
0x800CCCA9


 so I had to remove the log in sequence in order to post again.....

I just love computers....*s

gragor

I unchecked to log in box and it came through


gragor

I unchecked to log in box and it came through


gragor

I unchecked to log in box and it came through


gragor

I unchecked to log in box and it came through


gragor

In message <cnrp2j$25fh$1@news.grc.com>, gragor <not@this.time.ca> 
writes
>so do I have a functioning Cecil Id or not right now on this post?
>......username, password and log in checked again

Yes. :-)
-- 
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets:
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm
 From invalid, Reply To works.
Kevin A.

Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard gragor say:

[cut to the chase snip] :-)

> so do I have a functioning Cecil Id or not right now on this post?
> ......username, password and log in checked again

Now you've got it right... Here's what your "CECIL-ID" looks like in
your headers:

Poster: [209.53.216.198] (22 Nov 2004 04:14:18 GMT) {YUFB0DQRcTIgDfN2xBrZovhtyZo}

where previously it was:

Poster: [209.53.216.198] (22 Nov 2004 03:53:48 GMT) Non-Authenticated User

Good show!

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm

"Dutch" <me2@privacy.net> wrote in message


thanks Dutch...
> > I unchecked to log in box and it came through.....

this is the first "log in box" that one has to have checked in order to
enter a user name and password.

> Did you make sure the "Log on using Secure Password Authentication" box
> was *not* checked?

never had it checked....

And to make absolutely sure the "Account name:" and
> "Password:" entries exactly match, try typing in your word/phrase in the
> "Account name:" field, and then select, copy, and paste it into the
> "Password:" field.

yes checked all that many times.

so do I have a functioning Cecil Id or not right now on this post?
.......username, password and log in checked again

thanks Dutch

gragor

Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard gragor say:

>>
>> Now you've got it right... Here's what your "CECIL-ID" looks like in
>> your headers:
>>
>> Poster: [209.53.216.198] (22 Nov 2004 04:14:18 GMT)
> {YUFB0DQRcTIgDfN2xBrZovhtyZo}
>>
>> where previously it was:
>>
>> Poster: [209.53.216.198] (22 Nov 2004 03:53:48 GMT) Non-Authenticated User
>>
>> Good show!
< 
> that's great..... success at last...
> 
> now for those of us... read me... who don't know were you found that Cecil
> Id in my headers, would you please point me to the spot where you READ my
> headers?
> 
> I thought I would find it on the top of a message if I forwarded it back to
> you but all I find is .....
> 
> well if the truth be know I don't find a header anywhere...
> 
> I feel like such a fool in amongst such an august group....

Heck, we all had to learn this stuff sometime... And most of us are
*still* learning... :-)

Select the message you want in OE's message list, and then press [ALT]
and [ENTER] at the same time. Click on the "Details" tab in the just
opened "Properties" window to see the header info. You can also get
there by right-clicking on the message list entry and selecting
"Properties" from the drop-down menu. 

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm

>
> Now you've got it right... Here's what your "CECIL-ID" looks like in
> your headers:
>
> Poster: [209.53.216.198] (22 Nov 2004 04:14:18 GMT)
{YUFB0DQRcTIgDfN2xBrZovhtyZo}
>
> where previously it was:
>
> Poster: [209.53.216.198] (22 Nov 2004 03:53:48 GMT) Non-Authenticated User
>
> Good show!


that's great..... success at last...

now for those of us... read me... who don't know were you found that Cecil
Id in my headers, would you please point me to the spot where you READ my
headers?

I thought I would find it on the top of a message if I forwarded it back to
you but all I find is .....

well if the truth be know I don't find a header anywhere...

I feel like such a fool in amongst such an august group....

gragor
sucking up all the way...

In message <cnrs0r$274c$1@news.grc.com>, gragor <not@this.time.ca> 
writes
>
>"Dutch" <me2@privacy.net> wrote in message
>news:g3q1x15tu37n.dlg@12078.net...
[..]
>
>> Select the message you want in OE's message list, and then press [ALT]
>> and [ENTER] at the same time. Click on the "Details" tab in the just
>> opened "Properties" window to see the header info. You can also get
>> there by right-clicking on the message list entry and selecting
>> "Properties" from the drop-down menu.
[..]
>
>all I could find in my messages was my phoney email address...
>
>Path: news.grc.com!.
>From: "gragor" <not@this.time.ca>
>Newsgroups: grc.news.feedback
>Subject: Re: EVERYONE! -- Please switch ....on
>Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:50:39 -0800
>Message-ID: <cnrq4c$2613$1@news.grc.com>
>IS THIS IT??????????
>
>*******************************************************
>Poster: [209.53.216.166] (22 Nov 2004 04:32:13 GMT)
>{YUFB0DQRcTIgDfN2xBrZovhtyZo}
>********************************************************

Yep.

>X-Original-Reader: 209.53.216.166
>Xref: news.grc.com grc.news.feedback:52811
>
>
>yikes ...that's my IP address there...

It's also on the Poster line. The bad news is it's been there for years. 
Well, at least as long as you've been posting here. The good news is 
that it doesn't matter. Not significantly anyway. Without an IP address 
known to whatever is at the other end you wouldn't get any information 
back from the internet. :-)

>lets get Sam Spade on this right away...
>
>good thing my ISP has been taken over by a big bad multinational based in
>Calgary Alberta.... only about 700 miles away from my house... no danger of
>you gold folks coming over and teasing me for my niave questions...

Hmm. 700 miles, we could probably work that out.

>thanks all...
>esp. Kevin A, Milly, Robert Wycroft and you Dutch for all your patience with
>me..

Any time. :-)

>gragor
>all Cecil Id'ed and ready to go...
>on to the next crisis no doubt..

Hang on, it will be along shortly. <VBG>

-- 
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets:
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm
 From invalid, Reply To works.
Kevin A.

"Dutch" <me2@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:g3q1x15tu37n.dlg@12078.net...
> Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard gragor say:
>
> >>
> >> Now you've got it right... Here's what your "CECIL-ID" looks like in
> >> your headers:
> >>
> >> Poster: [209.53.216.198] (22 Nov 2004 04:14:18 GMT)
> > {YUFB0DQRcTIgDfN2xBrZovhtyZo}
> >>
> >> where previously it was:
> >>
> >> Poster: [209.53.216.198] (22 Nov 2004 03:53:48 GMT) Non-Authenticated
User


snip


> Select the message you want in OE's message list, and then press [ALT]
> and [ENTER] at the same time. Click on the "Details" tab in the just
> opened "Properties" window to see the header info. You can also get
> there by right-clicking on the message list entry and selecting
> "Properties" from the drop-down menu.
>
> -- 
> Dutch
>
> GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm

all I could find in my messages was my phoney email address...

Path: news.grc.com!.
From: "gragor" <not@this.time.ca>
Newsgroups: grc.news.feedback
Subject: Re: EVERYONE! -- Please switch ....on
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:50:39 -0800
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <cnrq4c$2613$1@news.grc.com>
References: <cnjhe9$2bjk$11@news.grc.com>
<fnwmfqrdh97j$.14d8hrpkm1w4b$.dlg@40tude.net>
<24o7LkL6TOoBFAKb@blackhole.2kevin.net> <cnrnsq$24np$1@news.grc.com>
<1c6luunv5xabl.dlg@12078.net> <cnrp2j$25fh$1@news.grc.com>
<bwse861vx5q0$.dlg@12078.net>


IS THIS IT??????????

*******************************************************
Poster: [209.53.216.166] (22 Nov 2004 04:32:13 GMT)
{YUFB0DQRcTIgDfN2xBrZovhtyZo}
********************************************************


X-No-Archive: yes
User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437
Archive: no
X-Original-Reader: 209.53.216.166
Xref: news.grc.com grc.news.feedback:52811


yikes ...that's my IP address there...

lets get Sam Spade on this right away...

good thing my ISP has been taken over by a big bad multinational based in
Calgary Alberta.... only about 700 miles away from my house... no danger of
you gold folks coming over and teasing me for my niave questions...

thanks all...
esp. Kevin A, Milly, Robert Wycroft and you Dutch for all your patience with
me..

gragor
all Cecil Id'ed and ready to go...
on to the next crisis no doubt..

gragor said in:<news:cnrq4c$2613$1@news.grc.com>:
> [...]
> that's great..... success at last...
> 
> now for those of us... read me... who don't know were you found that Cecil
> Id in my headers, would you please point me to the spot where you READ my
> headers?
> 
> I thought I would find it on the top of a message if I forwarded it back to
> you but all I find is .....
> 
> well if the truth be know I don't find a header anywhere...

I see you have the answer now, but (for anyone's future reference)
it was already here, if you'd read a bit farther ;) :-

http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#headers

> I feel like such a fool in amongst such an august group....

We've all been there, and will be again ...
-- 

Milly

Bruce Henderson said
in:<news:1bhie2997xlcn.1jt99hre4sdtv$.dlg@40tude.net>:
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:47:24 +0000, Milly wrote:
> 
>> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla|Netscape|Thunderbird
> 
> Having finally stumbled into the correct way of CECIL-enabling Thunderbird,
> entirely by accident, after much failure, it strikes me that the thing that
> had me baffled was that, whereas Dialog (and OE ?) offers username and
> password boxes for completion at any time, Thunderbird only offers these
> boxes when you try to access the GRC server, having previously ticked the
> 'Always request authentication' box and spent days looking for the 'other
> two' boxes. And even when you do try to go to the server, you are offered
> each box in turn, so you then get to stare at the first popup box wondering
> how to put in both required entries. It's only when you have sent away the
> first popup box that you get offered the second, whereupon the sun comes
> out, the angels sing, and all is well again.

It seems a really, really dumb system.

> Thought I would write this out, in case it gives you more of a 'feel' for
> the problem which is seemingly catching out wise folks, as well as me. I
> don't know if you can enhance your description any further, to clarify the
> one-after-the-other sequence ?
> 
> 1) Tick the 'Always request authentication' box.
> 2) Click OK
> 3) Click on the GRC news server link in Thunderbird, as if visiting the mg
> as normally.
> 4) You will be offered a popup box in which to enter a username. Put your
> passphrase in the box.
> 5) Click OK
> 6) You will be offered another popup box in which to enter a password. Put
> the same passphrase in this box.
> 7) Click OK
> 8) Start cancelling your posts....

Thanks - I've tweaked my blurb a bit accordingly.
-- 

Milly

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:49:22, Kevin A. wrote:

>My newsreader won't let me cancel something I didn't post, so if I post 
>form OE, I can't cancel in TP. I may be able to do the opposite. But 
>AFAIK, all that's necessary is the MID and the Cecil on this server.

It won't offer a drop-down option to cancel, but you should be able to 
hand-craft one.  I think...

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 21:22:46, gragor wrote:

>X-Original-Reader: 209.53.216.166

This only appears on your system.  Reading the same message, I get:

X-Original-Reader: 81.187.216.91

Which only appears on mine.  Every reader gets their own IP address 
added.

This is to identify any leaks to Google or UseNet.

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 03:26:14, Ash wrote:

>I'm regarding supercede as being similar to a webforum where a user
>can edit an existing post within a thread without breaking existing
>references.

It isn't.

And it's supersede... :)

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 02:59:55, Ash wrote:

>Guy, it may help clear up where our positions are different.
>Your reposted message showed up here unread and a new subthread.

Good.

>Are you saying that a supersede will create exactly the same outcome?

Yes.

>My understanding is that supersede would be different and maintain
>the single original thread by allowing existing replies to link
>to the supersede message.

A mis-understanding then.

>If this happens I'd be worried that
>a reworded supersede message could easily be used to cause strife
>with authors of existing replies.

Can't happen, except by forgery, not easy to achieve.

>And new replies to the supersede message would spawn a new subthread
>as normal as you just demonstratd with the cancel/repost.

Yes.

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

"Mark V" <notvalid@nul.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns95A769998F9CAz9zzaQ2btw@69.28.135.241...
> In grc.news.feedback Mark V wrote:
>
> OT OT OT OT
>
> > In grc.news.feedback Ash wrote:
> >
> >> In article Steve Gibson says...
> >>> [for the unabridged version, see Jim Crowther's post above]
> >>>
> >>> > > Server honoring Supersedes Header would do all
> [ ]
> >>> Supercedes?  I no longer recall what the issue(s) were, but I do
> [ ]
> > Having said my nickles worth, would Supersedes apply globally on a
>
> How do _you_ spell it?
> I spell it supercedes but my dang checker (and the one dictionary I
> checked) insist on supersedes (with an S)
>
> Really not important, is OT, but I am curious.

My little Seiko pocket spell checker spells it with an "S", too.  I'd have
thought it was spelled with a "C".
-- 
-- 73 DE Tom Rutherford, N8EUJ, Burton, MI
"She said it was either her or the ham radio.  Over."
(Reply-To address may be spam-resistant.)

Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Jim Crowther say:

> On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 02:59:55, Ash wrote:
> 
[...]
>>If this happens I'd be worried that
>>a reworded supersede message could easily be used to cause strife
>>with authors of existing replies.
> 
> Can't happen, except by forgery, not easy to achieve.
> 
>>And new replies to the supersede message would spawn a new subthread
>>as normal as you just demonstratd with the cancel/repost.
> 
> Yes.

Jim, I think it might be helpful to point to "Son of RFC 1036" for a
clear explanation of how the "Supersede" function works. Section 6.14,
for instance, has it thus:

<quote>
The Supersedes header content specifies articles to be cancelled on
arrival of this one: 

   Supersedes-content = message-id *( space message-id )

Supersedes is equivalent to Also-Control ( section 6.15 ) with an
implicit verb of "cancel" ( section 7.1 )
</quote>

http://www.chemie.fu-berlin.de/outerspace/netnews/son-of-1036.html#7.1

I think that might put the issue to bed for the moment, as it seems
pretty clear to me that the "Supersede" combined control and news
message, amounts to nothing more than a shorter method of doing
separate cancel/post operations, with the same end result. As far as
Steve implementing it, I don't see any problem either way, since we're
already able to accomplish the same effect, albeit with the extra
step...

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:29:45, Tom Rutherford wrote:

>My little Seiko pocket spell checker spells it with an "S", too.  I'd have
>thought it was spelled with a "C".

cedere = to go (irrelevant)
sedere = to sit (relevant)

supersede = sit on top of.

There may be a confusion in some minds with the word 'cede', from 
cedere, meaning to move out of the way, give way to, and the many words 
derived from that (antecedent etc).

The spelling is important, especially if you actually want to use 
supersede on a news message.  Continually using the wrong spelling 
causes confusion. :(

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:29:19 +0000, Milly wrote:

> Bruce Henderson said
> in:<news:1bhie2997xlcn.1jt99hre4sdtv$.dlg@40tude.net>:
>> On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:47:24 +0000, Milly wrote:
>> 
>>> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla|Netscape|Thunderbird

> Thanks - I've tweaked my blurb a bit accordingly.

Wow - I think even I can understand it, now :-)
-- 
Bruce Henderson
'...and hold our large heads high...'

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:16:35, Dutch wrote:

>As far as
>Steve implementing it, I don't see any problem either way, since we're
>already able to accomplish the same effect, albeit with the extra
>step...

The only downside to not allowing supersedes is that there isn't a 
'Supersedes:' header, so there isn't an automatic 'paper-trail' 
backwards.

For this server, one could put that info into the body, so nothing lost 
there then. :)

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

Wandering aimlessly about grc.news.feedback, I heard Jim Crowther say:

> On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:16:35, Dutch wrote:
> 
>>As far as
>>Steve implementing it, I don't see any problem either way, since we're
>>already able to accomplish the same effect, albeit with the extra
>>step...
> 
> The only downside to not allowing supersedes is that there isn't a 
> 'Supersedes:' header, so there isn't an automatic 'paper-trail' 
> backwards.
> 
> For this server, one could put that info into the body, so nothing lost 
> there then. :)

Good point, and the importance of that would depend on the thread
context as I see it. Readers of my "Guidelines" auto-posts for
instance, wouldn't really be served any better by knowing that the
current post was a "Supersede" of an older one, but in a growing
discussion thread, that could well be important to know... 

-- 
Dutch

GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm

In article <41A12564.3B6BF259@cox-internet.com> hermital wrote:
> In article <qpu1q0520570utec2o0a2tvaj7pp87n5qp@4ax.com> Greg R wrote:
> >
> > Corrected Post
> > >>> 1) Given how difficult I and a few others seem to have found the CECIL
> > >>> procedure (I still can't get it working with OE or TB), how will new
> > >>> arrivals work out how to do it ? If they can't post, Jim Crowther
> > >>> can't point them in the right direction.
> > >>
> > Thunderbird has a bug.   It won't even download Netscape secure groups
> 
> The Netscape secure groups are on the secnews.netscape.com server.
> You need to subscribe to it as a new newsgroup.
> 
> Click here for the Tbird group:
> 
Oooops!  As I prepared to put my body to bed last night I realized I
used the wrong protocol.  Here's the correct Tbird URL:

snews://secnews.netscape.com/netscape.mozilla.thunderbird

-- 
Alan
The universal principle of energy:
Energy has an objective, independent physical existence and exists 
in the absence of matter, but matter is entirely dependent upon
energy and cannot exist in the absence of energy.  - A.T. Williams
< http://www.cox-internet.com/hermital/book/holoprt2-1.htm >

In grc.news.feedback Jim Crowther wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 03:26:14, Ash wrote:
> 
>>I'm regarding supercede as being similar to a webforum where a user
>>can edit an existing post within a thread without breaking existing
>>references.
> 
> It isn't.
> 
> And it's supersede... :)

Are you sure it is not "Supersede:" in terms of a valid header 
(upcase).  BTW I do not know for certain.

hermital wrote:
> Oooops!  As I prepared to put my body to bed last night I realized I
> used the wrong protocol.  Here's the correct Tbird URL:
> 
> snews://secnews.netscape.com/netscape.mozilla.thunderbird

This might work even better, it did for me, anyways:

snews://secnews.netscape.com:563/netscape.mozilla.thunderbird

The others that I have in my notes are:

snews://secnews.netscape.com:563/netscape.mozilla.firebird
snews://secnews.netscape.com:563/netscape.mozilla.user.general
snews://secnews.netscape.com:563/netscape.mozilla.user.mac
snews://secnews.netscape.com:563/netscape.mozilla.user.unix
snews://secnews.netscape.com:563/netscape.mozilla.user.win32
snews://secnews.netscape.com:563/netscape.netscape7.windows

Milly wrote:
> Bruce Henderson said
> in:<news:1bhie2997xlcn.1jt99hre4sdtv$.dlg@40tude.net>:
> > On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:47:24 +0000, Milly wrote:
> >
> >> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla|Netscape|Thunderbird
> >
> > Having finally stumbled into the correct way of CECIL-enabling Thunderbird,
> > entirely by accident, after much failure, it strikes me that the thing that
> > had me baffled was that, whereas Dialog (and OE ?) offers username and
> > password boxes for completion at any time, Thunderbird only offers these
> > boxes when you try to access the GRC server, having previously ticked the
> > 'Always request authentication' box and spent days looking for the 'other
> > two' boxes. And even when you do try to go to the server, you are offered
> > each box in turn, so you then get to stare at the first popup box wondering
> > how to put in both required entries. It's only when you have sent away the
> > first popup box that you get offered the second, whereupon the sun comes
> > out, the angels sing, and all is well again.
> 
> It seems a really, really dumb system.

Perhaps it's *not* the system... <gdr>
 
> > Thought I would write this out, in case it gives you more of a 'feel' for
> > the problem which is seemingly catching out wise folks, as well as me. I
> > don't know if you can enhance your description any further, to clarify the
> > one-after-the-other sequence ?
> >
> > 1) Tick the 'Always request authentication' box.
> > 2) Click OK
> > 3) Click on the GRC news server link in Thunderbird, as if visiting the mg
> > as normally.
> > 4) You will be offered a popup box in which to enter a username. Put your
> > passphrase in the box.
> > 5) Click OK
> > 6) You will be offered another popup box in which to enter a password. Put
> > the same passphrase in this box.
> > 7) Click OK
> > 8) Start cancelling your posts....
> 
> Thanks - I've tweaked my blurb a bit accordingly.
> 
-- 
Alan
The universal principle of energy:
Energy has an objective, independent physical existence and exists 
in the absence of matter, but matter is entirely dependent upon
energy and cannot exist in the absence of energy.  - A.T. Williams
< http://www.cox-internet.com/hermital/book/holoprt2-1.htm >

"Milly" <@.....> wrote in message news:h49d2bz2ts1a$.dlg@0O.0O...
> gragor said in:<news:cnrq4c$2613$1@news.grc.com>:

> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#headers

Milly, you are a treat!

-- 
Robert
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://news.grc.com/news.exe?cmd=article&group=grc.techtalk&item=116183

In article <cnsv56$2q60$1@news.grc.com> Dennis Henderson wrote:
> hermital wrote:
> > Oooops!  As I prepared to put my body to bed last night I realized I
> > used the wrong protocol.  Here's the correct Tbird URL:
> >
> > snews://secnews.netscape.com/netscape.mozilla.thunderbird
> 
> This might work even better, it did for me, anyways:
> 
> snews://secnews.netscape.com:563/netscape.mozilla.thunderbird
> 
> The others that I have in my notes are:
> 
[...]

No need for "563" or notes, Dennis.  Just add the secnews.netscape.com
to your list of news servers and choose as many or as few newsgroups
as you need. :)

-- 
Alan
The universal principle of energy:
Energy has an objective, independent physical existence and exists 
in the absence of matter, but matter is entirely dependent upon
energy and cannot exist in the absence of energy.  - A.T. Williams
< http://www.cox-internet.com/hermital/book/holoprt2-1.htm >

hermital wrote:
> No need for "563" or notes, Dennis.  Just add the secnews.netscape.com
> to your list of news servers and choose as many or as few newsgroups
> as you need. :)

Actually, that was for Greg R's benefit - he's the one who can't get it 
to work. I've been subscribed to secnews.netscape.com for quite a while.

Jim Crowther wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:29:45, Tom Rutherford wrote:
> 
>> My little Seiko pocket spell checker spells it with an "S", too.  I'd 
> 
> The spelling is important, especially if you actually want to use 
> supersede on a news message.  Continually using the wrong spelling 
> causes confusion. :(
> 

"supersede" may have a technical spelling for news
group msgs, but to say "supercede" is *wrong* is not
correct, at least in terms of my Random House/Webster's
Unabridged, where supercede is the main entry and
supersede has no main entry but only appears as a variant
of supercede.
but then you end up in another forum debating which
dictionary is best.
my hunch is that Oxford has supersede, but I don't have Oxy
in front of me at the moment.
reference to Latin may have little relevance in
current English (US) spelling.
&& LoL the TB spellchecker thinks it should "supersede" <g>.

[for the unabridged version, see Mark V's post above]

> How do _you_ spell it?     

> I spell it supercedes but my dang checker (and the one
> dictionary I checked) insist on supersedes (with an S)
> 
> Really not important, is OT, but I am curious.

FWIW, there's also an RFC problem with "Referrer" and "Referer".

<g>  No one ever said that techies were terrific spelllers!  :)

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Bruce Henderson's post above]

Thanks for the clarification.

Are you forced to do this EVERY TIME? ... or is there a means for 
providing the username and password once and then not being 
bothered again every time you connect?

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Bazza's post above]

> step-by-step for the FreeAgent reader.

Yay!

> Maybe (this is where I get evil), Milly can incorporate How-To
> sublinks for the webpage.  Each reader type naturally - (ducks,
> runs and hides) -)

With all the trouble and confusion this has/is causing I'm hoping 
that Milly -- or someone -- will be willing to take the trouble to 
pull all this together.  Then I'll be able to respectfully steal 
it for a new page on GRC to help get people setup.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Milly <@.....>'s post above]

> Thanks - I've tweaked my blurb a bit accordingly.

I hope you'll feel that imitation is the sincerest form of 
flattery when I blatantly steal all your work to create a
Permanent page on GRC.  :)   It will help me immeasurably.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Gerry Griffith's post above]

> I have the same problem with Netscape 4.7 .  Configuration allows
> me to choose either to ask for a user name and password each time
> I open the GRC newsgroup or to only ask if the server requires a
> user name and password.  There is no offer to save a user name and
> password.  Right now I just have to enter the new user name twice
> each time I open the GRC newsgroup. This gives me canceling rights
> but could be a problem if I miss spell the user name when I log
> in.
> 
> I guess its time to go to Mozilla or Thunderbird.

Geez.  Have we CONFIRMED that there's no way to get Netscape 4.7 
to ask for then maintain a persistent username/password.  There 
really MUST be a way since so many ISP's news servers and old 
commercial servers also required a logon.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Milly <@.....>'s post above]

> Yep, it's now twice the price.

I'm sorry to be putting you though all this work Milly.

I would/could never have imagined that having popular NNTP 
newsreaders provide a logon username and password would be
such a problem.  Amazing.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Jim Crowther's post above]

> Perhaps Steve could be persuaded (if it's a SMOP) to allow 
> unauthenticated posting to grc.test, and make it clear to
> new users in the new instructions that this is the case.

Yes! ... that's a GREAT idea Jim!

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve.

"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:cnt9no$2kvs$15@news.grc.com...
> [for the unabridged version, see Bazza's post above]
>
> > step-by-step for the FreeAgent reader.
>
> Yay!
>
> > Maybe (this is where I get evil), Milly can incorporate How-To
> > sublinks for the webpage.  Each reader type naturally - (ducks,
> > runs and hides) -)
>
> With all the trouble and confusion this has/is causing I'm hoping
> that Milly -- or someone -- will be willing to take the trouble to
> pull all this together.  Then I'll be able to respectfully steal
> it for a new page on GRC to help get people setup.

hehe.  I bet you can even get it in a CSS version.

-- 
Robert
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://news.grc.com/news.exe?cmd=article&group=grc.techtalk&item=116183

"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:cnta0h$2kvs$17@news.grc.com...
> [for the unabridged version, see Gerry Griffith's post above]
>
> > I have the same problem with Netscape 4.7 .  Configuration allows
> > me to choose either to ask for a user name and password each time
> > I open the GRC newsgroup or to only ask if the server requires a
> > user name and password.  There is no offer to save a user name and
> > password.  Right now I just have to enter the new user name twice
> > each time I open the GRC newsgroup. This gives me canceling rights
> > but could be a problem if I miss spell the user name when I log
> > in.
> >
> > I guess its time to go to Mozilla or Thunderbird.
>
> Geez.  Have we CONFIRMED that there's no way to get Netscape 4.7
> to ask for then maintain a persistent username/password.  There
> really MUST be a way since so many ISP's news servers and old
> commercial servers also required a logon.

Is this an answer?

http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla|Netscape|Thunderbird

N.B. Mozilla|Netscape|Thunderbird users may have a little trouble finding
that setting, and getting it to stick - the basic principle is that you you
need to actually connect to the server in order to be presented with the
various settings dialog boxes (you can't do it all in advance). In newer
versions you can use Edit/Mail & Newsgroups Account Settings/(GRC
account)/Server Settings (or Tools/Account Settings/(GRC account)/Server
Settings), and check "Always request authentication when connecting to this
server". Then next time you connect to news.grc.com you should then be
prompted (via a popup dialog) for a username, and subsequently for a
password (and you can check the Password Manager box to remember that for
you, if you wish).

For older versions you may need to edit your Preferences by exiting
Mozilla|Netscape (including Quick Launch) first, then go to your profile
folder, back up your prefs.js file just in case, and create (or edit) the
user.js file in Notepad by adding this line ...

         user_pref("mail.server.server1.always_authenticate", true);

(Replacing the server number with the number that Mozilla has assigned to
the GRC server: look for that in prefs.js).

-- 
Robert
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://news.grc.com/news.exe?cmd=article&group=grc.techtalk&item=116183

Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see Gerry Griffith's post above]
> 
> 
>>I have the same problem with Netscape 4.7 .  Configuration allows
>>me to choose either to ask for a user name and password each time
>>I open the GRC newsgroup or to only ask if the server requires a
>>user name and password.  There is no offer to save a user name and
>>password.  Right now I just have to enter the new user name twice
>>each time I open the GRC newsgroup. This gives me canceling rights
>>but could be a problem if I miss spell the user name when I log
>>in.
>>
>>I guess its time to go to Mozilla or Thunderbird.
> 
> 
> Geez.  Have we CONFIRMED that there's no way to get Netscape 4.7 
> to ask for then maintain a persistent username/password.  There 
> really MUST be a way since so many ISP's news servers and old 
> commercial servers also required a logon.
> 
Not necessarily. This is essentially the problem that made me feel so 
dumb in Netscape 7.2. The trick is to tell it to ask every time, then to 
give it matching IDs and passwords on each activation. One thing that 
fooled me was that it asked only once - if I had it remember ID and 
password.

So the method that works in 7.2 (and may well in 4.7 or whatever) is to 
check the box to have it ask every time, then close the reader. Fire up 
the reader again and it will ask for name. Give it your passphrase and 
check the box. Then up comes the request for password and do the same. 
 From then on, you won't even see it happen.

I, too, had been looking for a way to enter ID and password into 
Communicator. It's not there because it shouldn't be; this is 
authenticating to the (remote) server, not to the local client.

(BTW: My head is no longer ringing since I stopped whacking it for my 
obtuseness.)

Mike
-- 
mrichter@cpl.net
http://www.mrichter.com/

Steve Gibson wrote:
> [for the unabridged version, see Bruce Henderson's post above]
> 
> Thanks for the clarification.
> 
> Are you forced to do this EVERY TIME? ... or is there a means for 
> providing the username and password once and then not being 
> bothered again every time you connect?
> 

Looking at my password settings in TBird - Options, they're saved for 
me. The next time I will have to enter them will be when I flush my 
"remembered" passwords in one of my paranoia attacks. There was a 
flavour of Netscape Mail recently (7.0?) where the settings wouldn't 
stick and you would be asked to re-enter for both the server and the 
individual groups to which one subscribed. That was a pain while it 
lasted. :(

-- 
Le Flake
from deepest, darkest Qu�bec

[for the unabridged version, see Le Flake's post above]

> Looking at my password settings in TBird - Options, they're
> saved for me.

Whew.  I'm glad about that!

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Mike Richter's post above]

I'm just *really* glad that it's all been worked out!  It seemed 
like a bit of a firestorm there for awhile ... which I was sorry 
to have started.  But now I'm glad that everyone will be making 
the switch ... and that the groups have acquired a body of 
knowledge about how to do it with everyone's differing 
newsreaders.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve.

Mark V schrieb:
[supercede - supersede - supersedes]
>> And it's supersede... :)
> Are you sure it is not "Supersede:" in terms of a valid header 
> (upcase).  BTW I do not know for certain.

It's "Supersedes:" ;-)
               ^
See:
<http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-usefor-usefor-01.txt>

| This document supersedes RFC 1036

| 3.2.5 Supersedes
|
| The Supersedes header contains a message identifier specifying an
| article to be superseded upon the arrival of this one. The specified
| article MUST be treated as though a "cancel" [USEPRO] control message
| had arrived for the article (but observe that a site MAY choose not
| to honor a "cancel" message, especially if its authenticity is in
| doubt).
|
| supersedes = "Supersedes:" SP [CFWS] msg-id-core [CFWS] CRLF
|
| NOTE: There is no "c" in Supersedes.


Upper- or lowercase is irrelevant (1.2.2. in this RFC).

Carsten, RFC multiposter, <grin>

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:21:37 -0500, Le Flake wrote:

> Steve Gibson wrote:
>> [for the unabridged version, see Bruce Henderson's post above]
>> 
>> Thanks for the clarification.
>> 
>> Are you forced to do this EVERY TIME? ... or is there a means for 
>> providing the username and password once and then not being 
>> bothered again every time you connect?
>> 
> 
> Looking at my password settings in TBird - Options, they're saved for 
> me. The next time I will have to enter them will be when I flush my 
> "remembered" passwords in one of my paranoia attacks. There was a 
> flavour of Netscape Mail recently (7.0?) where the settings wouldn't 
> stick and you would be asked to re-enter for both the server and the 
> individual groups to which one subscribed. That was a pain while it 
> lasted. :(

Indeed so, there is an option to remember presented in each of the
'Username' and 'Password' popup boxes. I haven't chosen that option,
because TB is my second-string newsreader, and I thought a non-enabled
option might be handy for testing. Sensible people will use the 'remember'
function. Or use Dialog.
-- 
Bruce Henderson
'...and hold our large heads high...'

In message <Xns95A96116BC4AAz9zzaQ2btw@news.grc.com>, Mark V
<notvalid@nul.invalid> writes
>In grc.news.feedback Kevin A. wrote:
>
>> In message <Xns95A8DE7B9E015z9zzaQ2btw@news.grc.com>, Mark V
>> <notvalid@nul.invalid> writes

[..]

>>>I have discovered ( or forgot and re-discovered ) that at a bare
>>>minimum not only does the authentication information need to be
>>>the same as when posted. but also the Posting Name and e-mail
>>>information as well must match in order to Cancel a post here.
>>
>> I posted a message just now, then started a cancel message. Before
>> sending it I changed the domain on the MID [removed the sub
>> domain], changed my email name and address [same domain though]
>> and it certainly appears to have canceled OK. I got no error
>> message and the post is missing in .test via the web interface.
>
>Here was my test and consternation.  If it cannot be replicated
>there, well that is valuable too.
>
>(Using Xnews) Post a msg to .test.
>Close the newsreader thus ending the session with GRC.
>Alter the news.grc.com server properties in the client for Posting
>Name by one character e.g. insert and extra space.
>Reconnect to new.grc.com
>Locate the prior post and attempt to Cancel it.
>I get (not exact quote):  Username and email address don't match.
>[ ]

I suspect that's coming from XNews.

>> I'll post again, do a follow-up as a place holder, then cancel the
>> first one after a few minutes.
>>
>>>I would appreciate an authoritative (Steve?) description of the
>>>exact fields that require an exact match in order to successfully
>>>complete a Cancel request.
>>
>> My newsreader won't let me cancel something I didn't post, so if I
>> post form OE, I can't cancel in TP. I may be able to do the
>> opposite. But AFAIK, all that's necessary is the MID and the Cecil
>> on this server.
>
>That is what I thought, but it seems I am not correct that MID +
>CECIL is all that is required.  Appreciate the testing Kevin.

I did some more testing, and the remains are in .test. As long as I use
the newsreader that I used to make the post [1] I can cancel a post no
matter who I am. I was able to post as the Me who is making this post.
Then I was able to cancel that using the settings that I use for Usenet
posts. That has a different [similar though] name, different email
address including the domain and a different FQDN as the MID. So other
than the newsreader and Cecil, everything was different, and it canceled
fine.

        [1] Based on a post from Jim, I could work around that in TP too
        if I was interested. Hmm, I think I might be interested. :-)


OK. I posted from OE [2] collected it in Turnpike, then hand crafted a
cancel message since Turnpike won't let me cancel an article I didn't
post. Newsreader, name, email address and domain, and FQDN for MID were
all different. The _only_ thing that matched was my Cecil. And the
article is gone. [2a]

        [2]
        <http://client.grc.com/news.exe?cmd=article&group=grc.test&item=1
        1061&utag=>

        [2a] But of course it's not there anymore. :-)

Now to try hand crafting a cancel on someone else's message. <g>

And that worked as expected, the server rejected my attempt with:
"Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:29:25 Unable to post news article : 441 Article did
not contain a matching CECIL-ID."
-- 
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets:
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm
From invalid, Reply To works.
Kevin A.

In grc.news.feedback Kevin A. wrote:

> In message <Xns95A96116BC4AAz9zzaQ2btw@news.grc.com>, Mark V
> <notvalid@nul.invalid> writes
>>In grc.news.feedback Kevin A. wrote:
>>> In message <Xns95A8DE7B9E015z9zzaQ2btw@news.grc.com>, Mark V
>>> <notvalid@nul.invalid> writes
> 
> [..]
> 
>>>>I have discovered ( or forgot and re-discovered ) that at a bare
>>>>minimum not only does the authentication information need to be
[ ]
>>> I posted a message just now, then started a cancel message.
>>> Before sending it I changed the domain on the MID [removed the
>>> sub domain], changed my email name and address [same domain
>>> though] and it certainly appears to have canceled OK. I got no
[ ]

>>Here was my test and consternation.  If it cannot be replicated
>>there, well that is valuable too.
>>
>>(Using Xnews) Post a msg to .test.
[ ]
> 
> I suspect that's coming from XNews.

Okay.  That's valuable and I can check that.  Thanks.

[rest snipped for now]

Steve Gibson wrote:

> FWIW, there's also an RFC problem with "Referrer" and "Referer".
>
> <g>  No one ever said that techies were terrific spelllers!  :)

Aha!
I was just wondering why Outlook Web Access (which is a great tool by itself)
had installed both "plugable" and "pluggable" thingies (protocols like
x-excid) into my registry.
The techies should have stuck to talking GUID language, which is
{9D6CC632-1337-4A33-9214-2DA092E776F4}BTW... for mimectl.dll ;-)
-- 
Kuifmans

Milly wrote:

>>> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla|Netscape|Thunderbird

Milly, this URL parses not well in Mozilla 1.7.3.
The pipe-chars (|) are breaking the clickable link.
You might want to change them.

Thank you,
Carsten

Milly wrote:

> [...]
> I've added mention of a popup to my explanation, but I'm open to
> suggestions (and corrections: I'm working blind) if there's a (still
> brief) way to make the Netscape etc blurb better?
> 
> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla|Netscape|Thunderbird

I might offer one suggestion concerning the anchor URL above.

Thunderbird truncates that URL at the first "|" character, turning it
into http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla and consequently, when
the URL is clicked, TB opens Firefox at the top of the page rather than
the anchor location. A separator other than "|" might be preferable.

In article Carsten Hiller says...

> It's "Supersedes:" ;-)

Gee! I've been spelling it both ways 'c' and 's' just to
keep people happy and now I find both are wrong. LOL

OK I get what superseeds does now thanks everyone <g>

Ash
 

In article Jim Crowther says...

Ash says...
> >And new replies to the supersede message would spawn a new subthread
> >as normal as you just demonstratd with the cancel/repost.
> 
> Yes.

Got it! <BG>

Ash

Kerry wrote:

> How else would you maintain the linkage across the missing post? Match
> the subject line?

Some news *servers* actually do that (not good!).
They will just toss a posting with the same exact same subject in a thread
with the that subject, as if it was a reply.

I spent quite a few hours once, trying to post to some "test" group to no
avail, before discovering all my attemps were in another thread called "Test"
which was weeks old.

Shows how useful it is to choose a discriptive/unique subject ;-)
-- 
Kuifmans

In article Dutch says...

> http://www.chemie.fu-berlin.de/outerspace/netnews/son-of-1036.html#7.1
> 
> I think that might put the issue to bed for the moment, as it seems
> pretty clear to me that the "Supersede" combined control and news
> message, amounts to nothing more than a shorter method of doing
> separate cancel/post operations, with the same end result. As far as
> Steve implementing it, I don't see any problem either way, since we're
> already able to accomplish the same effect, albeit with the extra
> step...

I'm done.  Missed this one during my searches.

Ash

In grc.news.feedback Dennis Henderson wrote:

> Milly wrote:
> 
>> [...]
>> I've added mention of a popup to my explanation, but I'm open to
>> suggestions (and corrections: I'm working blind) if there's a
>> (still brief) way to make the Netscape etc blurb better?
>> 
>> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla|Netscape|Thunderbird
> 
> I might offer one suggestion concerning the anchor URL above.
> 
> Thunderbird truncates that URL at the first "|" character, turning
> it into http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla and
> consequently, when the URL is clicked, TB opens Firefox at the top
> of the page rather than the anchor location. A separator other
> than "|" might be preferable. 

Try this in the bird
http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla%7CNetscape%7CThunderbird

Mark V wrote:
> Try this in the bird
> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla%7CNetscape%7CThunderbird

That works.

In grc.news.feedback Kevin A. wrote:

> In message <Xns95A96116BC4AAz9zzaQ2btw@news.grc.com>, Mark V
> <notvalid@nul.invalid> writes
>>In grc.news.feedback Kevin A. wrote:
>>
>>> In message <Xns95A8DE7B9E015z9zzaQ2btw@news.grc.com>, Mark V
>>> <notvalid@nul.invalid> writes

[ huge snip ]

>>(Using Xnews) Post a msg to .test.
[ ]

> I suspect that's coming from XNews.

Correct indeed!  Thanks.

I am going back to Cancel Message-ID:
 <Xns95A8DE7B9E015z9zzaQ2btw@news.grc.com>
and subsequent.  This will leave your posts, ah, disconnected.  And one 
by Jim as well.  

In grc.news.feedback Carsten Hiller wrote:

> Mark V schrieb:
> [supercede - supersede - supersedes]
>>> And it's supersede... :)
>> Are you sure it is not "Supersede:" in terms of a valid header 
>> (upcase).  BTW I do not know for certain.
> 
> It's "Supersedes:" ;-)

Yes.  My Typo! (sorry).  I intended to mean the _case_ of the leading 
character, but the RFC uses "S" so that settles it.  Thanks

> See:
> <http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-usefor-usefor-01.tx
[ ]

Mark V schrieb:

>> It's "Supersedes:" ;-)
> Yes.  My Typo! (sorry).  I intended to mean the _case_ of the leading 
> character, but the RFC uses "S" so that settles it.  Thanks
>> See:
>> <http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-usefor-usefor-01.txt>

Did you read my post to its conclusion?

>> Upper- or lowercase is irrelevant (1.2.2. in this RFC).
                          ^^^^^^^^^^
Carsten, good night.                                         ;-)

In grc.news.feedback Carsten Hiller wrote:

> Mark V schrieb:
> 
>>> It's "Supersedes:" ;-)
>> Yes.  My Typo! (sorry).  I intended to mean the _case_ of the
>> leading character, but the RFC uses "S" so that settles it. 
>> Thanks 
>>> See:
>>> <http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-usefor-usefor-01.
>>> txt> 
> 
> Did you read my post to its conclusion?
> 
>>> Upper- or lowercase is irrelevant (1.2.2. in this RFC).
>                           ^^^^^^^^^^
> Carsten, good night.                                         ;-)

I should just give up while I am behind.  <BG>
So I will.

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 09:18:01 -0000, PnG wrote:

> In 6ITmEbU997nBFwRN@nospam.at.my.choice.of.UID
> Jim Crowther mused:
>> On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:54:14, Jim Crowther wrote:
>>
>>> Good idea, x/p and f/u to grc.techtalk. :)
>>
>> Where this thread appears as:
>>
>> <http://www.crowth.org.uk/odds/tthread.jpg>
> 
> Textual representation of threading as seen in OE...
> 
> +<jc> Follow-up 1
>  +<jc> Follow-up 2
>  +<jc> Follow-up 3
>   +<jc> etc
>  +<jc> 2nd Level
>  +<mv> I am reminded...
>   +<jc> Thank you...
>    +<mv> Do we get...
> 
> Not as perfect as you might want ;-)

FWIW, 40tude Dialog gives the same - so it isn't only Microsoft <g>

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 22:16:51, Ash wrote:

>OK I get what superseeds does now thanks everyone <g>

I give in.

wibble.

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.                               wotmeworry

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 01:44:05, PnG wrote:

>On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 09:18:01 -0000, PnG wrote:

>> In 6ITmEbU997nBFwRN@nospam.at.my.choice.of.UID
>> Jim Crowther mused:
>>> On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:54:14, Jim Crowther wrote:

>>>> Good idea, x/p and f/u to grc.techtalk. :)

>>> Where this thread appears as:

>>> <http://www.crowth.org.uk/odds/tthread.jpg>

>> Textual representation of threading as seen in OE...

>> +<jc> Follow-up 1
>>  +<jc> Follow-up 2
>>  +<jc> Follow-up 3
>>   +<jc> etc
>>  +<jc> 2nd Level
>>  +<mv> I am reminded...
>>   +<jc> Thank you...
>>    +<mv> Do we get...

>> Not as perfect as you might want ;-)

>FWIW, 40tude Dialog gives the same - so it isn't only Microsoft <g>

So no indication of time-line then. :(

-- 
Jim Crowther                  "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Milly wrote:

> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla|Netscape|Thunderbird
>

This is not a valid URL the "|"s are not allowed.

Allowed are: alphanumeric and these characters 

"$"  "-"  "_"  "."  "+" "!"  "*"  "'"  "(" "?"

")"  ","  ";"  "/"  "?" ":"  "@"  "&"  "=" "#"

also space and %hex hex.

Here is the valid URL:

<http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla%7CNetscape%7CThunderbird>

-- 
Regards,
Guy

<URL:http://guysalias.batcave.net/pgpkeys.txt> [Updated: 4/29/2004]

Steve Gibson wrote:
> 
> [for the unabridged version, see Mike Richter's post above]
> 
> I'm just *really* glad that it's all been worked out!  It seemed
> like a bit of a firestorm there for awhile ... which I was sorry
> to have started.  But now I'm glad that everyone will be making
> the switch ... and that the groups have acquired a body of
> knowledge about how to do it with everyone's differing
> newsreaders.
> 
Sorry Steve
but Netscape 4.7 is still a PITA.  I tried the stuff Mike Richter
suggested for Netscape 7.2 but when I got to the second login
after closing the browser the box just didn't have a check to save
box. (sigh)  I also tried Millie's suggestions about the prefs.js
file and didn't find the same server structures there in the 4.7
..js file.

If anyone else has an answer please shoot -  -

Gerry

> --
> _________________________________________________________________
> Steve.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:25:13 +0000, Jim Crowther wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 01:44:05, PnG wrote:
>>On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 09:18:01 -0000, PnG wrote:
>>> In 6ITmEbU997nBFwRN@nospam.at.my.choice.of.UID
>>> Jim Crowther mused:
>>>> On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:54:14, Jim Crowther wrote:
>>>> Where this thread appears as:
>>>> <http://www.crowth.org.uk/odds/tthread.jpg>
>>> Textual representation of threading as seen in OE...
>>> +<jc> Follow-up 1
>>>  +<jc> Follow-up 2
>>>  +<jc> Follow-up 3
>>>   +<jc> etc
>>>  +<jc> 2nd Level
>>>  +<mv> I am reminded...
>>>   +<jc> Thank you...
>>>    +<mv> Do we get...
> 
>>> Not as perfect as you might want ;-)
> 
>>FWIW, 40tude Dialog gives the same - so it isn't only Microsoft <g>
> 
> So no indication of time-line then. :(

If you mean date/time stamps, then, yes OE and Dialog display those. I 
was following up on your comment that Turnpike threaded with/displayed a 
'place holder' for a non-existant 'root' post. Both in OE & Dialog the 
'level 2' postings are not (as) perfectly threaded - the oldest 'level 
2' appears as the root.

In any case, I think I'll stick with Dialog for a while to see whether I 
can acclimatise (although I have found one bug already). It has a couple 
of useful-ish features (even though I don't 'do' binary Usenet).

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 22:32:05 -0600, Guy wrote:

> In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Milly wrote:
> 
>> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla|Netscape|Thunderbird
>>
> 
> This is not a valid URL the "|"s are not allowed.
> 
> Here is the valid URL:
> 
> <http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla%7CNetscape%7CThunderbird>

Well, well, well. I posted a query in Techtalk yesterday, about FF 0.8
opening two unasked for tabs. Now I know why (but not how, yet).
When I launch the 'piped' URL, Milly's page loads, as does a tab for
www.netscape.com/ and one for www.mozilla.org/products/thunderbird/.
This does not happen with corrected version.
If anyone out there has the time to spare to explain how this is resulting
from use of the 'pipe' character, I would love to hear. From past
experience I know that the 'pipe' is useful/essential in command line DOS
operations, but Windows won't allow it in a filename. Obviously it has
other magick powers, of which I know nothing.
-- 
Bruce Henderson
'...and hold our large heads high...'

Gerry Griffith wrote:
> Sorry Steve
> but Netscape 4.7 is still a PITA.  I tried the stuff Mike Richter
> suggested for Netscape 7.2 but when I got to the second login
> after closing the browser the box just didn't have a check to save
> box. (sigh) 

Gerry,

I think the checkbox should be on the first login popup.

Regards,
Sam
-- 
 03:24:18 up 3 days,  2:43,  3 users,  load average: 0.16, 0.34, 0.35

Bruce Henderson wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 22:32:05 -0600, Guy wrote:
> 
>> In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Milly wrote:
>>> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla|Netscape|Thunderbird
>
> Well, well, well. I posted a query in Techtalk yesterday, about FF 0.8
> opening two unasked for tabs. Now I know why (but not how, yet).
> When I launch the 'piped' URL, Milly's page loads, as does a tab for
> www.netscape.com/ and one for www.mozilla.org/products/thunderbird/.
> This does not happen with corrected version.
> If anyone out there has the time to spare to explain how this is resulting
> from use of the 'pipe' character, I would love to hear. From past
> experience I know that the 'pipe' is useful/essential in command line DOS
> operations, but Windows won't allow it in a filename. Obviously it has
> other magick powers, of which I know nothing.

This might provide the answer:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=firefox+tabs+pipe&btnG=Search

It looks like firefox interprets the pipe character as indicating that
additional pages should open in other tabs. How this is supposed to work in
any shell that assigns special meaning to the pipe character is beyond me,
though. Maybe this can be done in the 'homepage' setting and in bookmarks
for convenience.

The reason the second tabs contain what they do is because the pipes contain
only a 'keyword' which is then retrieved via Google's "I'm feeling lucky"
search. The first google result for netscape is http://www.netscape.com and
the first result for thunderbird is
http://www.mozilla.org/products/thunderbird.

HTH

Regards,
Sam
-- 
 03:25:51 up 3 days,  2:45,  3 users,  load average: 0.31, 0.35, 0.36

Kuifmans wrote:

> Kerry wrote:
> 
>> How else would you maintain the linkage across the missing post? Match
>> the subject line?
> 
> Some news *servers* actually do that (not good!).
> They will just toss a posting with the same exact same subject in a thread
> with the that subject, as if it was a reply.
> 
> I spent quite a few hours once, trying to post to some "test" group to no
> avail, before discovering all my attemps were in another thread called
> "Test" which was weeks old.
> 
> Shows how useful it is to choose a discriptive/unique subject ;-)

How are you concluding that the news _server_ is performing the threading,
as opposed to your client? The news-server has no access to your reader's
UI, and is only able to set headers. Did the news-server manipulate the
References header in any way?

I know OE threads by subject as well as references.

Regards,
Sam
-- 
 03:31:27 up 3 days,  2:50,  3 users,  load average: 0.18, 0.29, 0.33

Guy said in:<news:95A9$E53C8.5D3B$2E284CEEC009E394A9D7@127.0.0.1>:
> In Steve Gibson's grc.news.feedback - Milly wrote:
>> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla|Netscape|Thunderbird
> 
> This is not a valid URL the "|"s are not allowed.
> 
> Allowed are: alphanumeric and these characters 
> 
> "$"  "-"  "_"  "."  "+" "!"  "*"  "'"  "(" "?"
> 
> ")"  ","  ";"  "/"  "?" ":"  "@"  "&"  "=" "#"
> 
> also space and %hex hex.

Thanks Guy. I did wonder as I put it in, but I'd just been reading
that Google spiders them fine, and added that to 2 to make 5.

> Here is the valid URL:
> 
> <http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla%7CNetscape%7CThunderbird>

And here's the new link :-

http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla+Netscape+Thunderbird
-- 

Milly

Dennis Henderson said in:<news:cntoc2$emb$1@news.grc.com>:
> Milly wrote:
> 
>> [...]
>> I've added mention of a popup to my explanation, but I'm open to
>> suggestions (and corrections: I'm working blind) if there's a (still
>> brief) way to make the Netscape etc blurb better?
>> 
>> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla|Netscape|Thunderbird
> 
> I might offer one suggestion concerning the anchor URL above.
> 
> Thunderbird truncates that URL at the first "|" character, turning it
> into http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla and consequently, when
> the URL is clicked, TB opens Firefox at the top of the page rather than
> the anchor location. A separator other than "|" might be preferable.

What is it with you Hendersons? ;) 

Done, thanks (and thanks Carsten, too) :-

http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla+Netscape+Thunderbird
-- 

Milly

Steve Gibson said in:<news:cnt9qi$2kvs$16@news.grc.com>:
> [for the unabridged version, see Milly <@.....>'s post above]
> 
>> Thanks - I've tweaked my blurb a bit accordingly.
> 
> I hope you'll feel that imitation is the sincerest form of 
> flattery when I blatantly steal all your work to create a
> Permanent page on GRC.  :)   It will help me immeasurably.

You'll be very welcome. It seems only fair, since I stole most of it
from you in the first place ;)
-- 

Milly

Steve Gibson said in:<news:cnta8b$2kvs$18@news.grc.com>:
> [for the unabridged version, see Milly <@.....>'s post above]
> 
>> Yep, it's now twice the price.
> 
> I'm sorry to be putting you though all this work Milly.

No hassle, minor tweaking is all.

> I would/could never have imagined that having popular NNTP 
> newsreaders provide a logon username and password would be
> such a problem.  Amazing.

Even some OE users seem to have had trouble, and OE appears to have
a much more sensible system than the Moz family.
-- 

Milly

Milly wrote:

> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla+Netscape+Thunderbird

That works perfectly. Thank you.

"Milly" <@.....> wrote in message news:4itkct1r4i70.dlg@0O.0O...

> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla+Netscape+Thunderbird

Another one for my GRC collection. :-))

-- 
Robert
GRC Newsgroups/Guidelines/No Regrets
http://news.grc.com/news.exe?cmd=article&group=grc.techtalk&item=116183

[for the unabridged version, see Carsten Hiller's post above]

> Milly wrote:
> 
> >>> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla|Netscape|Thunderbird
> 
> Milly, this URL parses not well in Mozilla 1.7.3.
> The pipe-chars (|) are breaking the clickable link.
> You might want to change them.

Yikes.  I don't think the "|" character is valid in a URL,
but presumably some browsers (Milly's) find it acceptable.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Milly <@.....>'s post above]

> What is it with you Hendersons? ;) 
> 
> Done, thanks (and thanks Carsten, too) :-
> 
> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla+Netscape+Thunderbird

Perfect choice Milly!  "+" is perfect.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Sam Schinke's post above]

> It looks like firefox interprets the pipe character as indicating
> that additional pages should open in other tabs. How this is
> supposed to work in any shell that assigns special meaning to the
> pipe character is beyond me ...

Sheesh.  Indeed.  So much for standards.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve.

[for the unabridged version, see Milly <@.....>'s post above]

> Even some OE users seem to have had trouble, and OE appears
> to have a much more sensible system than the Moz family.

Well ... that's some good news anyway, since the vast majority of 
visitors will be visiting here with IE and OE.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve.

In article <slrncq7htb.v64.bloated_elvis@localhost.localdomain>
Bloated Elvis wrote:
> On 2004-11-22, Steve Gibson <support@grc.com> wrote:
> > [for the unabridged version, see Mike Richter's post above]
> >
> > I'm just *really* glad that it's all been worked out!  It seemed
> > like a bit of a firestorm there for awhile ... which I was sorry
> > to have started.  But now I'm glad that everyone will be making
> > the switch ... and that the groups have acquired a body of
> > knowledge about how to do it with everyone's differing
> > newsreaders.
> >
> Steve - since you are on your statistics kick - how about a news
> reader/agent breakdown...
> 
I'll second that.  Interested readers' would like to know. :)

-- 
Alan
The universal principle of energy:
Energy has an objective, independent physical existence and exists 
in the absence of matter, but matter is entirely dependent upon
energy and cannot exist in the absence of energy.  - A.T. Williams
< http://www.cox-internet.com/hermital/book/holoprt2-1.htm >

On 2004-11-22, Steve Gibson <support@grc.com> wrote:
> [for the unabridged version, see Mike Richter's post above]
>
> I'm just *really* glad that it's all been worked out!  It seemed 
> like a bit of a firestorm there for awhile ... which I was sorry 
> to have started.  But now I'm glad that everyone will be making 
> the switch ... and that the groups have acquired a body of 
> knowledge about how to do it with everyone's differing 
> newsreaders.
>
Steve - since you are on your statistics kick - how about a news
reader/agent breakdown...

-- 
Bloated Elvis

[for the unabridged version, see Bloated Elvis's post above]

> Steve - since you are on your statistics kick - how about
> a news reader/agent breakdown...

That's a cool idea Bloated.  I'll do it!  :)

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Steve.

In grc.news.feedback Steve Gibson wrote:

> [for the unabridged version, see Bloated Elvis's post above]
> 
>> Steve - since you are on your statistics kick - how about
>> a news reader/agent breakdown...
> 
> That's a cool idea Bloated.  I'll do it!  :)

Since BE's great idea has captured your fancy, could we perahps see 
"all tim" and the last 6 months only (where the OE percentage has 
likely dropped)?

"Jim Crowther" <Don't_bother@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> wrote in message
news:n9KxZFUkneoBFw5R@nospam.at.my.choice.of.UID...
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:29:45, Tom Rutherford wrote:
>
> >My little Seiko pocket spell checker spells it with an "S", too.  I'd
have
> >thought it was spelled with a "C".
>
> cedere = to go (irrelevant)
> sedere = to sit (relevant)

Ah!  Thanks!

> supersede = sit on top of.

Gotcha.  Closely related to "subsume", except that to subsume something is
to assimilate it into a larger whole.  This just replaces a particular item.
Or, did I not understand it after all?

> There may be a confusion in some minds with the word 'cede', from
> cedere, meaning to move out of the way, give way to, and the many words
> derived from that (antecedent etc).

Yep.  I can see the confusion.  I hadn't looked up the etymolgy of "sede" or
"cede", so I was confused.

> The spelling is important, especially if you actually want to use
> supersede on a news message.  Continually using the wrong spelling
> causes confusion. :(

The elegant solution would be for everyone to learn to spell, yes.  But, as
much as it offends my anal-retentive mind, couldn't the variants be written
into the code?  Like David(?) Baldwin of Winchester, UK, who wrote that
little editor I was talking about, which could accept either "color" or
"colour" in the configuration file.
--
-- 73 DE Tom Rutherford, N8EUJ, portable in Pontiac, MI
"She said it was either her or the ham radio.  Over."
(Reply-To may be anti-spammed.)

Sam Schinke wrote:
> 
> Gerry Griffith wrote:
> > Sorry Steve
> > but Netscape 4.7 is still a PITA.  I tried the stuff Mike Richter
> > suggested for Netscape 7.2 but when I got to the second login
> > after closing the browser the box just didn't have a check to save
> > box. (sigh)
> 
> Gerry,
> 
> I think the checkbox should be on the first login popup.
> 

Sam:
When I open the GRC news group I get a popup for the user name and
when this is entered it is followed with a popup for the
password.  Neither popup has a check to save box. Once I have
entered the GRC password twice I am good to go until I close the
News Group.
Gerry

> Regards,
> Sam
> --
>  03:24:18 up 3 days,  2:43,  3 users,  load average: 0.16, 0.34, 0.35

"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:co05h5$126g$7@news.grc.com...
> [for the unabridged version, see Carsten Hiller's post above]
>
> > Milly wrote:
> >
> > >>> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla|Netscape|Thunderbird

[snip]

> Yikes.  I don't think the "|" character is valid in a URL,
> but presumably some browsers (Milly's) find it acceptable.
_________________________________________________________________
> Steve.

"|" works in OE6

gragor

Steve Gibson said in:<news:co05h5$126g$7@news.grc.com>:
> [for the unabridged version, see Carsten Hiller's post above]
> 
>> Milly wrote:
>> 
>>>>> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla|Netscape|Thunderbird
>> 
>> Milly, this URL parses not well in Mozilla 1.7.3.
>> The pipe-chars (|) are breaking the clickable link.
>> You might want to change them.
> 
> Yikes.  I don't think the "|" character is valid in a URL,
> but presumably some browsers (Milly's) find it acceptable.

IE, Opera, and the Googlebot, at least. Still, gotta help out these
pernickety upstarts like Firefox ... ;)
-- 

Milly

Milly wrote:
> Steve Gibson said in:<news:co05h5$126g$7@news.grc.com>:
>>
>>Yikes.  I don't think the "|" character is valid in a URL,
>>but presumably some browsers (Milly's) find it acceptable.
> 
> IE, Opera, and the Googlebot, at least. Still, gotta help out these
> pernickety upstarts like Firefox ... ;)

If it's any consolation, the pipes don't work in Mozilla 1.8a5 either.
Must be a Gecko thing.  ;-)

Gerry Griffith <Gerry@Light-Net.org> wrote:

> Sam:
> When I open the GRC news group I get a popup for the user name and
> when this is entered it is followed with a popup for the
> password.  Neither popup has a check to save box. Once I have
> entered the GRC password twice I am good to go until I close the
> News Group.

I'm lost in this thread.  Did you read Milly's page?

http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla+Netscape+Thunderbird

-- 
Robert
GRC newsgroup tips - http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm
List of Lists - http://lists.gpick.com/
Privacy and Security - https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/ehowes/www/main-nf.htm

Robert Wycoff wrote:
> 
> Gerry Griffith <Gerry@Light-Net.org> wrote:
> 
> > Sam:
> > When I open the GRC news group I get a popup for the user name and
> > when this is entered it is followed with a popup for the
> > password.  Neither popup has a check to save box. Once I have
> > entered the GRC password twice I am good to go until I close the
> > News Group.
> 
> I'm lost in this thread.  Did you read Milly's page?
> 
> http://www.imilly.com/noregrets.htm#Mozilla+Netscape+Thunderbird
> 
Hi Robert

I looked at Milly's page first but found that N4.7 didn't specify
servers in the prefs.js but instead used a folder in the /news
folder to list the servers without security info.

It looks like Netscape 4.7 is just outdated, so I will just log in
each time until I build a new telephone interface computer, then
upgrade to Mozilla or Thunderbird.

Thanks Robert
Gerry

Gerry Griffith wrote:

> It looks like Netscape 4.7 is just outdated...

Duh! :)

I did that as you asked and reset the newsreader to authz. logon.
Hope this helps get rid of that problem Steve...

Helen..

"Steve Gibson" <support@grc.com> wrote in message
news:cnjhe9$2bjk$11@news.grc.com...
> Everyone,
>
> As you may have been noticing, we are having an increasing problem
> with newsgroup SPAM postings across all of our groups.
<Snip>

helen sautner wrote:
> I did that as you asked and reset the newsreader to authz. logon.
> Hope this helps get rid of that problem Steve...
> 
> 

Helen,

Please forgive me if this is out of turn, but did you catch Ken's answer 
to your post in the Spyware group?

He recommends a look at this list:

http://www.spywarewarrior.com/rogue_anti-spyware.htm

-- 
Michael