Hi all:

With the release of MS windows 8 beta today,  is it possible to create Metro 
style (with Touch interface) applications with Delphi?   Is there a beta 
version of Delphi you would need for this?

Thanks  Bob

Bob McKinnon wrote:

> Is there a beta 
> version of Delphi you would need for this?

If anybody answered this question Embarcadero would have to kill them.
;-)

-- 
Andy Syms
Technosoft Systems Ltd

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance."
 -- Confucius

So is visual studio my best bet?  I believe they have a beta version offered 
to the public?  I was just hoping Embarcadero was doing the same.

Bob

"Andy Syms"  wrote in message news:449563@forums.embarcadero.com...

Bob McKinnon wrote:

> Is there a beta
> version of Delphi you would need for this?

If anybody answered this question Embarcadero would have to kill them.
;-)

-- 
Andy Syms
Technosoft Systems Ltd

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance."
-- Confucius

Bob McKinnon wrote:

> With the release of MS windows 8 beta today,  is it possible to
> create Metro style (with Touch interface) applications with Delphi?
> Is there a beta version of Delphi you would need for this?


Perhaps this would be of interest:

"Help+Manual 6 Welcome Screen as stand-alone component"

http://www.ec-software.com/downloads_delphi.html

> With the release of MS windows 8 beta today,  is it possible to create Metro 
> style (with Touch interface) applications with Delphi?   
As long as they're API you can call from a PE executable you can write them. Of course there is no designer/library support yet.

> Is there a beta  version of Delphi you would need for this?

Delphi betas are private so you have to ask Embarcadero. Anyway MS can align its OS and tools realeases, something competitors hardly can. And IMHO Metro is not that appealing for a lot of applications, due to its limitations.

We know there's at least one person at Embarcadero working on this.

http://www.thomgerdes.com/

Lachlan

Le 29/02/12 20:31, Lachlan Gemmell a écrit :

> We know there's at least one person at Embarcadero working on this.
>
> http://www.thomgerdes.com/

Check out his profile; he is no longer at Embarcadero.

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [Team OOAD]

> {quote:title=Joanna Carter (Team OOAD) wrote:}{quote}
> Le 29/02/12 20:31, Lachlan Gemmell a écrit :
> 
> > We know there's at least one person at Embarcadero working on this.
> >
> > http://www.thomgerdes.com/
> 
> Check out his profile; he is no longer at Embarcadero.
> 
> Joanna
> 
> -- 
> Joanna Carter [Team OOAD]

I suspect part of the VCL team chopping exercise. Very disappointing to lose him and Seppy.

FireMonkey kind of needs people that know what is going on, and from what has been released so far (feature and quality) this is lacking greatly.

Jeremy North wrote:

> I suspect part of the VCL team chopping exercise. Very disappointing
> to lose him and Seppy.

A stunning turn of events indeed.

-- 
Nick Hodges -- Product Development Manager
Gateway Ticketing Systems
http://www.gatewayticketing.com

TMS Software have their Metro controls:
http://www.tmssoftware.com/site/advmetro.asp
Cheers,
KB.

"Bob McKinnon" <stardate10@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
news:449559@forums.embarcadero.com...
> Hi all:
>
> With the release of MS windows 8 beta today,  is it possible to create 
> Metro
> style (with Touch interface) applications with Delphi?   Is there a beta
> version of Delphi you would need for this?
>
> Thanks  Bob

> > With the release of MS windows 8 beta today,  is it possible to create 
> > Metro
> > style (with Touch interface) applications with Delphi?   Is there a beta
> > version of Delphi you would need for this?

Ohhh! Now we are back to the Windows 3.1 interface?

Kim Bracknell wrote:

> TMS Software have their Metro controls:
> http://www.tmssoftware.com/site/advmetro.asp
> Cheers,
> KB.


It's important not to confuse Metro controls with controls that look
like the metro interface.

"Bob McKinnon" wrote on Wed, 29 Feb 2012 10:36:49 -0800:

> So is visual studio my best bet?

At this point, if you want to stay on the cutting edge of Microsoft
platform development, that's really your only bet.

Microsoft has a solution for developing Metro apps that are
processor-independent right now (VS 11 beta).

If Delphi is planned to support Metro app development, I don't think
they have said so.  (And despite the brand name confusion, Prism isn't
really what I think of when I say "Delphi.")

It would be good to hear that Delphi will target Metro development
soon.  Absent that information, any of us who want to stay modern will
have little choice but learn and use the MS development stack...

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com

"Luigi Sandon" wrote on Wed, 29 Feb 2012 11:43:19 -0800:

> As long as they're API you can call from a PE executable you can write them. Of course there is no designer/library support yet.

It's not that simple.  For one thing, mere API support is primitive at
best in a RAD tool.  For another, Windows 8 will be on more than
x86/x64 CPUs, and we have no way of targeting ARM with Delphi.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com

"Kim Bracknell" wrote on Thu, 1 Mar 2012 03:35:20 -0800:

> TMS Software have their Metro controls:
> http://www.tmssoftware.com/site/advmetro.asp

This has nothing at all to do with actual Metro development.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com

Le 01/03/12 11:35, Kim Bracknell a écrit :

> TMS Software have their Metro controls:
> http://www.tmssoftware.com/site/advmetro.asp

Yeeeuughhh!!!

If that is the shape of Windows UIs to come, I'm just unbelievebly glad 
to not have to use Windows.

I thought earlier versions were a bit "Fisher Price" but this kind of 
appearance is far worse on the eyes.

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [Team OOAD]

>...any of us who want to stay modern will
> have little choice but learn and use the MS development stack...


Metro targets specific user scenarios and has many restrictions
on accessing various computer resources and API's. Some applications
can live with it nicely and some are not. I really
doubt you can call Metro 8 modern and Desktop obsolete.
They're just 2 different beasts.

> Ohhh! Now we are back to the Windows 3.1 interface?

+1

Oh, no. He was hope. At least from my perspective, I thought it's the right man for the right job. That's sad. So he is very likely the right man only.

> {quote:title=Joanna Carter (Team OOAD) wrote:}{quote}
> Check out his profile; he is no longer at Embarcadero.

> {quote:title=Jeremy North wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=Joanna Carter (Team OOAD) wrote:}{quote}
> > Le 29/02/12 20:31, Lachlan Gemmell a écrit :
> > 
> > > We know there's at least one person at Embarcadero working on this.
> > >
> > > http://www.thomgerdes.com/
> > 
> > Check out his profile; he is no longer at Embarcadero.
> > 
> > Joanna
> > 
> > -- 
> > Joanna Carter [Team OOAD]
> 
> I suspect part of the VCL team chopping exercise. Very disappointing to lose him and Seppy.
> 
> FireMonkey kind of needs people that know what is going on, and from what has been released so far (feature and quality) this is lacking greatly.

<rant>
If they continue down this path FireMonkey will burst in dancing blurry flames and
VCL will get stuck in the past. And more and more legitimate QC reports would
be closed as designed because there will be only bunch of apes left who cannot 
tell right stuff from the wrong stuff.
</rant>

Now, I don't usually tell things like that, but I am under the Update 4 influence right now.
There is plenty of work done in it, no doubt, but there is too much more to be done,
and some things are completely ridicilous.

Dalija Prasnikar

Don't believe the world is a lot different in other technology corners. Reality is very sobering in general. Some things simply take longer than a certain period, FMX is one of those. 'Even if the director signs with his blood, only the possible is possible'. Take what works and don't care about things that don't do.

> {quote:title=Dalija Prasnikar wrote:}{quote}
> <rant>
> If they continue down this path FireMonkey will burst in dancing blurry flames and
> VCL will get stuck in the past. And more and more legitimate QC reports would
> be closed as designed because there will be only bunch of apes left who cannot 
> tell right stuff from the wrong stuff.
> </rant>
> 
> Now, I don't usually tell things like that, but I am under the Update 4 influence right now.
> There is plenty of work done in it, no doubt, but there is too much more to be done,
> and some things are completely ridicilous.
> 
> Dalija Prasnikar

> 
> > {quote:title=Dalija Prasnikar wrote:}{quote}
> > <rant>
> > If they continue down this path FireMonkey will burst in dancing blurry flames and
> > VCL will get stuck in the past. And more and more legitimate QC reports would
> > be closed as designed because there will be only bunch of apes left who cannot 
> > tell right stuff from the wrong stuff.
> > </rant>
> > 
> > Now, I don't usually tell things like that, but I am under the Update 4 influence right now.
> > There is plenty of work done in it, no doubt, but there is too much more to be done,
> > and some things are completely ridicilous.
> > 
> {quote:title=Michael Thuma wrote:}{quote}
> Don't believe the world is a lot different in other technology corners. Reality is very sobering in general. Some things simply take longer than a certain period, FMX is one of those. 'Even if the director signs with his blood, only the possible is possible'. Take what works and don't care about things that don't do.

I know what you are talking about. And I am very understanding about FM and its
current state. It is evolving technology and it will take some time to mature. That 
was not unexpecting. Also it is possible that from time to time some things like
blurry fonts will jump in and mess things up. I am prepared to deal with that kind
of stuff also. 

What I was complaining about was the fact that at very critical moment when new
unpolished technology was relased, Windows 8 is around the corner, and there
are plans for expanding to additional platforms (Linux, Android, ARM), they were
firing people up. Instead of maximizing they power to fix and deliver new things they
shoot themselves in the foot. No matter how smart and good are new developers that
they were also hiring in the meantime, they would need some time to become fully
productive under new environment. That is the time lost in the eyes of their customers.

Time will tell, and I do hope I am wrong. 

Dalija Prasnikar

"Konstantine Poukhov" wrote on Thu, 1 Mar 2012 07:41:30 -0800:

>>...any of us who want to stay modern will
>> have little choice but learn and use the MS development stack...
> 
> Metro targets specific user scenarios and has many restrictions
> on accessing various computer resources and API's. Some applications
> can live with it nicely and some are not. I really
> doubt you can call Metro 8 modern and Desktop obsolete.
> They're just 2 different beasts.

When I say "stay modern" I mean specifically: taking advantage of what
new things Microsoft offers in their platform.  Since the edge of MS
product advancement is no longer entrenched in Win32, you simply can't
do it with Delphi.  Indeed, over the last few Windows releases, I have
had to rely more and more on my ability and willingness to directly
deal with the API because Delphi has not been wrapping new
functionality soon enough and/or well enough.

The desktop isn't going to disappear overnight (if ever).  But even on
a desktop computer with Windows 8 installed, the first thing a user
sees is Metro.  And other than an icon letting the user launch my app
(in desktop mode, of course) I am shut out of it as a Delphi
developer.

I completely understand that Windows 8 and Metro are bleeding-edge
platforms and I don't expect that Delphi can instantly give me 100%
coverage there.  But given Embarcadero's emphasis on its own UI
library (Firemonkey) it seems unlikely that there will be true support
for Metro development any time soon from Embarcadero.  I hope to be
proved wrong on this, but I can't sit back and just hope as there
isn't a whisper from them about supporting WinRT that I've seen.  So
the question is: will the (maybe, hopefully) Delphi that supports
modern Windows 8 development come sooner than my ability to make use
of VS 11 will?  I doubt it.  I need to cover my bets so I'll be diving
into VS.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com

Am 02.03.2012 15:01, schrieb Brandon Staggs:
> "Konstantine Poukhov" wrote on Thu, 1 Mar 2012 07:41:30 -0800:
> 
> 
> I completely understand that Windows 8 and Metro are bleeding-edge
> platforms 

Bleeding edge? Did a short test drive of it today. On a 1280x1024
display it didn't rescale those tiles as I would expect (if resizing
doesn't cramm them too much), it rather displays a scroll bar. Ts!

Using a ribbon interface for explorer is also a waste of screen estate
in my eyes. Many features shown there are only used seldom by me.

Greetings

Markus

Agreed on all you say. It's a perfect analysis.

Don't fear things that maybe happen, they did not happen. It's irrational, to fear something that is not here.

>they were firing people up.
Did you mean fire or firing up customers?

Having early support for different platforms is a solution of 'The Hare and The Hedgehog' problem. The exception is simply the shorter the distance is the less Delphi is the solution until the 'device/os version/platform' is stable. Currently the device's life-cycles are short. Just considering Delphi and cross-platform. Cross-platform is an option for late adopters. This counts for all, so the solution will be found first another way anyway. You don't loose the time because of EMB, you loose it anyway th
is way.

Fluctuation is a fact at EMB, at least read from response on a website from former and current employees. In my opinion not a risk for us. I still see the fluctuation as positive organic fever, maybe a symptom of growth and change. The second for sure. I don't elaborate why ... I think this. The feedback in general is still positive.

The fluctuation anything related is not connected to the problem of the so called delay in the response to 'The Hare and The Hedgehog' problem given the starting point in time. Coming back to Win8, early support is an opportunity to align a lot more proper. This would make Delphi maybe 'less feature rich' but a lot more complete/consistent. It is better to have a clean option for 'Mac' and Windows and get other things later. This way  one can say, this corner is covered in a reliable way. Anything else is
 welcome at any point in time but stable. I don't see another compromise, if I look at Delphi standalone (better said, Delphi and C++ Builder).

"Markus Humm" wrote on Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:17:32 -0800:

>> I completely understand that Windows 8 and Metro are bleeding-edge
>> platforms 
> 
> Bleeding edge? Did a short test drive of it today. On a 1280x1024

You've misunderstood me.  I am not commenting on the value of Metro,
but that the platform itself is not even RTM yet.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com

> {quote:title=Michael Thuma wrote:}{quote}
> 
> >they were firing people up.
> Did you mean fire or firing up customers?
> 

I meant firing their employees.

> Having early support for different platforms is a solution of 'The Hare and The Hedgehog' problem. The exception is simply the shorter the distance is the less Delphi is the solution until the 'device/os version/platform' is stable. Currently the device's life-cycles are short. Just considering Delphi and cross-platform. Cross-platform is an option for late adopters. This counts for all, so the solution will be found first another way anyway. You don't loose the time because of EMB, you loose it anyway 
this way.
> 

That's true.

> Fluctuation is a fact at EMB, at least read from response on a website from former and current employees. In my opinion not a risk for us. I still see the fluctuation as positive organic fever, maybe a symptom of growth and change. The second for sure. I don't elaborate why ... I think this. The feedback in general is still positive.
> 

Fluctuation is always there in big ecosystems. The problem is when you force it
on larger scale. If I understood correctly they fired about third of their US Delphi 
team last September (I could be wrong). That is just too much at the wrong time. 
And I think it is starting to show. 

Dalija Prasnikar

I cannot comment on forcing. What I have read from the comments of those who left and those who are still in, I think it's more the talented people expectations that are not matched. This is the risk of Laissez Faire ... in the end focusing on self-responsibility combined  with restricted self-determination.

Forcing is a good point, allow me to share a thought. Is an environment with lots of reins the environment that makes creative people stay, grow beyond talent and allow them to keep the feeling alive - 'That's what I wanted, this is where I belong too'? Also if the employee is not involved directly, it turned out to be a good idea in practice to shield the 'production plant' from HQ sanity redefined in materials industry. I think this is a lot more required when the focus of the work is a result from huma
n thinking.

If EMB fired people because a deadline has not been matched, let me say, 'Tell me a name, bring me a head'. According to the former employees feedback this is not likely, but who knows. I don't think tough.

Mike

> {quote:title=Dalija Prasnikar wrote:}{quote}
> Fluctuation is always there in big ecosystems. The problem is when you force it
> on larger scale. If I understood correctly they fired about third of their US Delphi 
> team last September (I could be wrong). That is just too much at the wrong time. 
> And I think it is starting to show. 
> 
> Dalija Prasnikar

> {quote:title=Michael Thuma wrote:}{quote}
>
> If EMB fired people because a deadline has not been matched, let me say, 'Tell me a name, bring me a head'. According to the former employees feedback this is not likely, but who knows. I don't think tough.
> 

I think it was more in line of saving few bucks on cheaper working force abroad, but I really don't know.

Dalija Prasnikar

Good argument.

> {quote:title=Dalija Prasnikar wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=Michael Thuma wrote:}{quote}
> >
> > If EMB fired people because a deadline has not been matched, let me say, 'Tell me a name, bring me a head'. According to the former employees feedback this is not likely, but who knows. I don't think tough.
> > 
> 
> I think it was more in line of saving few bucks on cheaper working force abroad, but I really don't know.
> 
> Dalija Prasnikar

Am 02.03.2012 20:56, schrieb Brandon Staggs:
> "Markus Humm" wrote on Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:17:32 -0800:
> 
>>> I completely understand that Windows 8 and Metro are bleeding-edge
>>> platforms 
>>
>> Bleeding edge? Did a short test drive of it today. On a 1280x1024
> 
> You've misunderstood me.  I am not commenting on the value of Metro,
> but that the platform itself is not even RTM yet.
> 

Ok, sorry if I turned that into a slightly different direction...

Greetings

Markus

<Dalija Prasnikar> wrote in message news:450361@forums.embarcadero.com...
>> {quote:title=Michael Thuma wrote:}{quote}
>>
>> If EMB fired people because a deadline has not been matched, let me say, 
>> 'Tell me a name, bring me a head'. According to the former employees 
>> feedback this is not likely, but who knows. I don't think tough.
>>
>
> I think it was more in line of saving few bucks on cheaper working force 
> abroad, but I really don't know.
>

I found (past week) this Embarcadero blog entry (posted sept 2011?) 
interesting, in light of the "re-organization" that has apparently occurred, 
after continued 3-year growth (15%, 15%, 54%, reported elsewhere), very 
interesting:
http://blogs.embarcadero.com/tonydelalama/2011/09/18/rad-just-keeps-on-growing/

I wonder how much of the product development work, and in what product 
areas, has been done where (4 development centers), in what time frames, 
over the past 4 years or so...

Anybody know and want/able to share?

Or even more generally, what development work is done where on what products 
currently?
(Appears "compiler/debugger initiatives" still in Scotts Valley, and IDE 
work largely in Spain "supported by the US team", from that blog entry.)

I did not have the impression that activities concerning the core of the products are shifted because of the cost in an urgent fashion. In East Europe they get good people at a fair rate I think, but I had the impression that those services moved there first, which are simply to expensive to be produced at a good quality in the West. Maybe now development too little more. 

Qualified U.S. developers are expensive and the avg. U.S. income is one of the highest in the world still. Avg. Europe is not this high, independent if East or West.

EMB has people everywhere. Japan, UK, Romania, Spain (obviously), U.S., Canada. This is nothing special, because of the support very likely too. 

International companies work this way. Once I worked at a site who did the ERP technology part in Germany and the whole ASP.net stuff in Slovenia. There are many ways to organize developments for different reasons.

Mike 

> {quote:title=david hoke wrote:}{quote}
> 
> Or even more generally, what development work is done where on what products 
> currently?
> (Appears "compiler/debugger initiatives" still in Scotts Valley, and IDE 
> work largely in Spain "supported by the US team", from that blog entry.)