Windows 10 going to support Raspberry Pi 2 SoC.... Delphi/C++ Builder? [Edit]

Raspberry Foundation and Microsoft announced that Windows 10 will run on the new Raspberry Pi 2:

http://www.raspberrypi.org/raspberry-pi-2-on-sale/
http://dev.windows.com/en-us/featured/raspberrypi2support

Interview with Pi founder Upton:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/02/02/windows_10_raspberry_pi_2_eben_upton_interview/

Windows already run on some SoC boards (i.e Intel Galileo), and it looks Windows 10 will expand to more devices for its IoT support.

Now that Google Glasses have been shelved, what are Embarcadero plans to support this (relatively) "new" class of devices in Delphi and C++ Builder? MS is going to support them with developer tools as well.

Supporting them could be a good thing to reach the educational/students/hobbyists market... which some of you regard of paramount importance to bring more developers to use Embarcadero products...

PS: yes, that probably means Delphi would need to support some flavour of Windows RT... waiting for those yelling "ah, it can't be done". Of course. As long as Emb does nothing, nothing can be done...

Edited by: Luigi Sandon on Feb 2, 2015 5:34 PM
0
Luigi
2/2/2015 1:01:01 AM
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> {quote:title=Luigi Sandon wrote:}{quote}

> That is true for mobile as well. And even more so given the complexity of mobile devices compared to a Pi. Yet they try desperately to conquer a little niche despite going against behemoths like Apple and Google... ah, but people get rich with mobile apps, didn't they? I'd like to know who got rich with a *Delphi* mobile app....

I would not call smartphones a little niche (specially compared to Pi and other boards). I see plenty of business and paying jobs in mobile apps and pretty good vertical business. I know we're not making any direct money from app sales but having a mobile client has definitely helped in selling our product to (desktop +_server side). Embarcadero making a play in this space does make business sense to me.

If they had unlimited engineering resources then yes i would love them to support Pi but business side is still unclear. Most of the hobby/DIY crowd likely would not buy the license (even AppMethod rental model) unless there was something special about delphi for this. Prototyping crowd might switch to some other SoC solution for real production so Delphi value there is also not clear. 

I'm just saying i don't see a business case for supporting this - i'd be very happy to be proven wrong by Embarcadero in this.


> Sure. And in what space Delphi should pick up users? Windows 3.1/95 ones? Sure, they can sit down and wait... everybody will be always in front of them then, and they will always lag behind.

I think there is lot they can improve in desktop and mobile space as well as better support for writing server sides (including non-Windows) not to mention dealing with Windows 10 support (whatever they can at this stage). One cannot be great in every niche and there is also nothing wrong IMHO using best tool for the job even if it might not be delphi in case of Pi 2.


> Last time Emb tried it was a failure... and once it has an ARM compiler, Emb has far better support now for Windows applications that Linux ones. Especially since the Linux distribution model doesn't fit well with the Delphi one. Oops... I forgot... it has no support for Windows RT applications....

They do have an ARM compiler and as to RT - let's see how the Windows 10 shakes out. 

Raul
0
Raul
2/2/2015 1:01:01 AM
> {quote:title=Luigi Sandon wrote:}{quote}
> Raspberry Foundation and Microsoft announced that Windows 10 will run on the new Raspberry Pi 2:
> Windows already run on some SoC boards (i.e Intel Galileo), and it looks Windows 10 will expand to more devices for its IoT support.

It's still bit unclear what they will support exactly since very little is known about Windows for IoT AFAIK. Best guess for Pi 2 is the Windows 10 Athens which might end up being a very limited windows (i.e. i'm not even sure at this point what GUI it has, if any).
 
> Now that Google Glasses have been shelved, what are Embarcadero plans to support this (relatively) "new" class of devices in Delphi and C++ Builder? MS is going to support them with developer tools as well.

Considering no info has been released by MS yet regarding Windows 10 IoT it would be hard for address yet. Realistically Build 2015 is where more info is available so even if Embarcadero fully jumped in at that point we'd likely be talking XE release in the fall earliest.

> Supporting them could be a good thing to reach the educational/students/hobbyists market... which some of you regard of paramount importance to bring more developers to use Embarcadero products...

I'm not convinced of this - Embarcadero would always be behind the curve here since they don't control HW nor OS. Native tools will be free and have a large community already for original Pi and of course of all Visual Studio users for Windows 10 side would not switch to Delphi. Picking up new users would be hard in this space.

While it would be cool i'm not seeing much a a business upside for Embarcadero. Putting their engineering efforts to get the Linux support out and ideally also Linux on ARM to work would make more sense to  me. 

Windows 10 on x86 would still run delphi (desktop) apps so that end would be covered as well.

Raul
0
Raul
2/2/2015 5:13:19 PM
> i.e. i'm not even sure at this point what GUI it has, if any).

Read interview. It's going to support GUI applications, even if there could be no "desktop". Galileo boards have no A/V output, thereby there Windows run in command line mode only. But Pi CEO stressed that the Pi has HDMI output, and it will be exploited.

> Considering no info has been released by MS yet regarding Windows 10 IoT it would be hard for address yet.

I don't ask for a release tomorrow. Just trying to understand if and what plans Embarcadero may have to support that class of devices. They are excellent for prototyping and other tasks.
 
> I'm not convinced of this - Embarcadero would always be behind the curve here since they don't control HW nor OS.

That is true for mobile as well. And even more so given the complexity of mobile devices compared to a Pi. Yet they try desperately to conquer a little niche despite going against behemoths like Apple and Google... ah, but people get rich with mobile apps, didn't they? I'd like to know who got rich with a *Delphi* mobile app....

Nor it did control x86 and Windows, yet there was a time when Delphi was a good tool to develop for both.

>  Picking up new users would be hard in this space.

Sure. And in what space Delphi should pick up users? Windows 3.1/95 ones? Sure, they can sit down and wait... everybody will be always in front of them then, and they will always lag behind.

> Putting their engineering efforts to get the Linux support out and ideally also Linux on ARM to work would make more sense to  me. 

Last time Emb tried it was a failure... and once it has an ARM compiler, Emb has far better support now for Windows applications that Linux ones. Especially since the Linux distribution model doesn't fit well with the Delphi one. Oops... I forgot... it has no support for Windows RT applications....

> Windows 10 on x86 would still run delphi (desktop) apps so that end would be covered as well.

No - as more and more x86 apps will need to access the Windows RT side too.... while desktop apps are less relevant today, and still Delphi lacks a proper Windows server support.
0
Luigi
2/2/2015 7:42:25 PM
>>Raspberry Foundation and Microsoft announced that Windows 10 will run on 
>>the new Raspberry Pi 2:

My Arduino is becoming obsolete
0
Gilbert
2/2/2015 7:49:39 PM
Am 02.02.2015 um 17:34 schrieb Luigi Sandon:
> Raspberry Foundation and Microsoft announced that Windows 10 will run on the new Raspberry Pi 2:
> 
> http://www.raspberrypi.org/raspberry-pi-2-on-sale/
> http://dev.windows.com/en-us/featured/raspberrypi2support
> 
> Interview with Pi founder Upton:
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/02/02/windows_10_raspberry_pi_2_eben_upton_interview/
> 
> Windows already run on some SoC boards (i.e Intel Galileo), and it looks Windows 10 will expand to more devices for its IoT support.
> 
> Now that Google Glasses have been shelved, what are Embarcadero plans to support this (relatively) "new" class of devices in Delphi and C++ Builder? MS is going to support them with developer tools as well.
> 
> Supporting them could be a good thing to reach the educational/students/hobbyists market... which some of you regard of paramount importance to bring more developers to use Embarcadero products...
> 
> PS: yes, that probably means Delphi would need to support some flavour of Windows RT... waiting for those yelling "ah, it can't be done". Of course. As long as Emb does nothing, nothing can be done...
> 

Hello,

repeating your unsubstanced/unbacked claim that EMBT did nothing in the
area of Win RT doesn't make it true.

While it is true that this might be a really good chance to reach more
people it isn't true that EMBT did nothing in the past about RT support.

Or what's your source that they didn't? Just because you haven't heared
anything doesn't mean they didn't.

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
2/2/2015 8:18:09 PM
Am 02.02.2015 um 14:35 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
> Luigi Sandon wrote:
> 
>> Raspberry Foundation and Microsoft announced that Windows 10 will run
>> on the new Raspberry Pi 2:
> 
> And probably on our refrigerator too. Cool! <g>
> 

Hello,

is your fridge that complex that it needs some ARM SoC for its
functions? I'd rather guess that in most cases some µController is still
be sufficient and much cheaper.

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
2/2/2015 8:19:14 PM
Am 03.02.2015 um 09:29 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
> Markus Humm wrote:
> 
>> Am 02.02.2015 um 14:35 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
>>> Luigi Sandon wrote:
>>>
>>>> Raspberry Foundation and Microsoft announced that Windows 10 will
>> run >> on the new Raspberry Pi 2:
>>>
>>> And probably on our refrigerator too. Cool! <g>
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> is your fridge that complex that it needs some ARM SoC for its
>> functions?
> 
> No, that's our toaster.
> 

With the income of a doctor one can of course have a big enough villa
where one doesn't hear when sitting at the table when the toaster ejects
the finished toast. One needs some (most likely WiFi) connection so it
can send a notification when it's finished. ;-)

Or is it even the new model with integrated "arms" which put the toast
on a plate and insert the unbaked new slices to continue toasting
without needing you doing that work?

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
2/3/2015 1:01:01 AM
Markus Humm wrote:

> Am 02.02.2015 um 14:35 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
> > Luigi Sandon wrote:
> > 
> >> Raspberry Foundation and Microsoft announced that Windows 10 will
> run >> on the new Raspberry Pi 2:
> > 
> > And probably on our refrigerator too. Cool! <g>
> 
> Hello,
> 
> is your fridge that complex that it needs some ARM SoC for its
> functions?

No, that's our toaster.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis        http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I plan to live forever. So far so good." 
  -- Rob C. Claffie in borland.public.off-topic
0
Rudy
2/3/2015 8:29:48 AM
Markus Humm wrote:

> Am 02.02.2015 um 14:35 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
> > Luigi Sandon wrote:
> > 
> >> Raspberry Foundation and Microsoft announced that Windows 10 will
> run >> on the new Raspberry Pi 2:
> > 
> > And probably on our refrigerator too. Cool! <g>
> 
> Hello,
> 
> is your fridge that complex that it needs some ARM SoC for its
> functions?

No, that's our toaster.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis        http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I plan to live forever. So far so good." 
  -- Rob C. Claffie in borland.public.off-topic
0
Rudy
2/3/2015 8:39:06 AM
> {quote:title=Luigi Sandon wrote:}{quote}
> Raspberry Foundation and Microsoft announced that Windows 10 will run on the new Raspberry Pi 2:

This is an argument for Windows Arm Compiler.   I don't know if it's enough to push Embarcadero down this path, but it is an interesting development.

One hurdle that people will face is that current Delphi ARM compilers only support FMX and not VCL.     I doubt that restriction will be lifted.
0
Robert
2/3/2015 5:38:57 PM
Rudy,

| |  is your fridge that complex that it needs some ARM SoC for its
| |  functions?
| 
| No, that's our toaster.

ROFL! 

-- 

   Q 

1.19.1.372  (Q's Broken Toolbar.)
0
Quentin
2/3/2015 6:10:50 PM
> {quote:title=Markus Humm wrote:}{quote}
> repeating your unsubstanced/unbacked claim that EMBT did nothing in the
> area of Win RT doesn't make it true.
> 
> While it is true that this might be a really good chance to reach more
> people it isn't true that EMBT did nothing in the past about RT support.

Windows RT is Windows Running on an ARM processor.

Regardless if EMBT did anything when it came to Win RT, it is true as a customer
we don't have a solution to target Windows RT.   Granted I have no need for it, so
I don't really care if they support it or not.
0
Robert
2/3/2015 6:55:33 PM
Luigi wrote:

> Windows already run on some SoC boards (i.e Intel Galileo), and it
> looks Windows 10 will expand to more devices for its IoT support.

Microsoft HoloLens runs Windows 10 as well.  Will C++Builder/Delphi be able 
to make HoloLens apps?

-- 
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
0
Remy
2/3/2015 8:38:14 PM
Markus Humm wrote:

> With the income of a doctor one can of course have a big enough villa
> where one doesn't hear when sitting at the table when the toaster
> ejects the finished toast. One needs some (most likely WiFi)
> connection so it can send a notification when it's finished. ;-)
> 
> Or is it even the new model with integrated "arms" which put the toast
> on a plate and insert the unbaked new slices to continue toasting
> without needing you doing that work?

WTF are you talking about? We live in a penthouse, and it has no arms.


-- 
Rudy Velthuis        http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Plato was a bore."
 -- Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900)
0
Rudy
2/4/2015 1:01:01 AM
> One hurdle that people will face is that current Delphi ARM compilers
> only support FMX and not VCL.     I doubt that restriction will be lifted.

Isn't the API of Windows 10 the same on Intel and ARM plattform?
Why should the VCL dont work on ARM if Delphi has a compiler for that 
plattform?

Ronald
0
Ronald
2/4/2015 1:01:01 AM
> {quote:title=Ronald Klitsche wrote:}{quote}
> Isn't the API of Windows 10 the same on Intel and ARM plattform?

Likely not - Win 10 desktop would still need to support all of the Win32 stuff while ARM would not have to. Last Windows on ARM was the Windows RT which of course is not supported by delphi at all. Not to mention the Windows IoT edition might not even have the standard GUI so no VCL at all.

> Why should the VCL dont work on ARM if Delphi has a compiler for that 
> plattform?

Delphi has just Win32/Win64 compilers and no special Win 10 support. The regular desktop apps should be fine in desktop mode but rest is unknown still.

Raul
0
Raul
2/4/2015 1:01:01 AM
> Likely not - Win 10 desktop would still need to support
> all of the Win32 stuff while ARM would not have to.

The "Desktop" WinAPI of Windows RT is near to Windows 8 but it's ARM code 
based.
Up to now, it isn't open for 3rd party, but possible:
http://www.extremetech.com/computing/144888-windows-rt-jailbroken-to-run-third-party-desktop-apps

If Windows 10 change that limit, the VCL compiled for ARM, will run on 
mobile devices.

Ronald
0
Ronald
2/4/2015 1:01:01 AM
> {quote:title=Ronald Klitsche wrote:}{quote}
> If Windows 10 change that limit, the VCL compiled for ARM, will run on 
> mobile devices.

We need windows to loosen up restrictions for sure. However, AFAIK delphi does not even have an ARM compiler for VCL. 

I thought the only ARM compiler is the nextgen one for mobile platforms which currently has enough differences that recompiling your existing VCL code might be quite a challenge.

Not to say they cannot create one but again it becomes a question of resources and priorities and whether we can re-use legacy VCL code for it or not.

Raul

Edited by: Raul Sinimae on Feb 4, 2015 8:32 AM
0
Raul
2/4/2015 1:01:01 AM
> {quote:title=Ronald Klitsche wrote:}{quote}
> Isn't the API of Windows 10 the same on Intel and ARM plattform?

API imports declare a specific calling convention.       The default calling convention on ARM processors is different.
It possible would have to be converted again to handle both ARM and x86.   

> Why should the VCL dont work on ARM if Delphi has a compiler for that 
> plattform?

VCL is built with the x86 compiler in mind.    

The ARM compilers are using the NextGen, LLVM backend where there are several changes all of which would impact the VCL and your existing code..

1.  No Short, Wide or Ansi Strings
2.  Strings are Immutable (Constant)
3   Strings are 0 based instead of 1 based
4.  ARC (Automatic Reference Counting)

I know there are several other changes that impact this as well.
0
Robert
2/4/2015 1:01:01 AM
Am 04.02.2015 um 10:00 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
> Markus Humm wrote:
> 
>> With the income of a doctor one can of course have a big enough villa
>> where one doesn't hear when sitting at the table when the toaster
>> ejects the finished toast. One needs some (most likely WiFi)
>> connection so it can send a notification when it's finished. ;-)
>>
>> Or is it even the new model with integrated "arms" which put the toast
>> on a plate and insert the unbaked new slices to continue toasting
>> without needing you doing that work?
> 
> WTF are you talking about? We live in a penthouse, and it has no arms.
> 
> 

If it had arms, the toaster could take out the finished slices and stick
in new ones to be toasted without needing you to do so. ANd: penthouses
can be large as well.

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
2/4/2015 6:25:29 PM
Am 03.02.2015 um 19:55 schrieb Robert Love:
>> {quote:title=Markus Humm wrote:}{quote}
>> repeating your unsubstanced/unbacked claim that EMBT did nothing in the
>> area of Win RT doesn't make it true.
>>
>> While it is true that this might be a really good chance to reach more
>> people it isn't true that EMBT did nothing in the past about RT support.
> 
> Windows RT is Windows Running on an ARM processor.
> 
> Regardless if EMBT did anything when it came to Win RT, it is true as a customer
> we don't have a solution to target Windows RT.   Granted I have no need for it, so
> I don't really care if they support it or not.
> 

Right. But having no solution for it's customers vs. "did nothing" is
something else. And since he's not providing any source for his claim
"they did nothing" the claim is moot as it lacks proof.

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
2/4/2015 6:26:47 PM
Robert wrote:

> 1.  No Short, Wide or Ansi Strings

True.

> 2.  Strings are Immutable (Constant)

Strings are not immutable in the nextgen compilers.  Embarcadero *almost* 
went that route, but decided against it.  However, if you modify a string 
via the '[]' operator, you do get a compiler warning that modifying strings 
MIGHT be removed in the future.  But so far, COW has outweighed immutability 
as a useful feature, so it still applies.

> 3   Strings are 0 based instead of 1 based

Only in the nextgen compilers, and only by default but can be disabled via 
the {$ZEROBASEDSTRINGS OFF} directive if desired.  And it is not the strings 
themselves that are 0-based, it is just the '[]' operator specifically that 
is 0-based or 1-based, depending on the current {$ZEROBASEDSTRINGS} state, 
which can be set on a per-codeblock basis.

> 4.  ARC (Automatic Reference Counting)

True, which in of itself is a PITA when migrating existing non-ARC code.

-- 
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
0
Remy
2/4/2015 11:58:16 PM
Markus Humm wrote:

> If it had arms, the toaster could take out the finished slices and
> stick in new ones to be toasted without needing you to do so.

Our penthouse does not have arms.

 ANd:
> penthouses can be large as well.

Oh, indeed.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis        http://www.rvelthuis.de

 "Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
  Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
  Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
  Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
  Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
  Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
  The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a 
  snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words 
  that have changed their meaning. No one ever said elves are 
  nice. Elves are bad."
 -- Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies)
0
Rudy
2/5/2015 7:10:35 AM
Remy,

| However, if you modify a string 
| via the '[]' operator, you do get a compiler warning that modifying
| strings MIGHT be removed in the future.

Oh GAWD, I hope not!!!!!!!!!!!  

-- 

   Q 

1.19.1.372  (Q's Broken Toolbar.)
0
Quentin
2/5/2015 5:14:34 PM
Am 05.02.2015 um 08:10 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
> Markus Humm wrote:
> 
>> If it had arms, the toaster could take out the finished slices and
>> stick in new ones to be toasted without needing you to do so.
> 
> Our penthouse does not have arms.
> 

Hello,

you still didn't get it: not the penthouse would have arms. The toaster
would! The penthouse doesn't need to know about the toaster. But the
toaster about finished toast which he takes out with his arms then to
prepare the next round of toast.

>  ANd:
>> penthouses can be large as well.
> 
> Oh, indeed.
> 

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
2/5/2015 6:48:43 PM
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

> Markus Humm wrote:
> 
> > If it had arms, the toaster could take out the finished slices and
> > stick in new ones to be toasted without needing you to do so.
> 
> Our penthouse does not have arms.
> 
>  ANd:
> > penthouses can be large as well.
> 
> Oh, indeed.

But if it contains Apple mobile devices, it has ARMs.  :-)

-- 
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
0
Van
2/5/2015 7:18:24 PM
Am 05.02.2015 um 20:18 schrieb Van Swofford:
> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> 
>> Markus Humm wrote:
>>
>>> If it had arms, the toaster could take out the finished slices and
>>> stick in new ones to be toasted without needing you to do so.
>>
>> Our penthouse does not have arms.
>>
>>  ANd:
>>> penthouses can be large as well.
>>
>> Oh, indeed.
> 
> But if it contains Apple mobile devices, it has ARMs.  :-)
> 

Sort of, yes. But in that case they'd rather control the penthouse... So
it's a bit debateable who's the owner: would perhaps one such ARM own
the penthouse? ;-)

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
2/6/2015 1:01:01 AM
Markus Humm wrote:

> Am 05.02.2015 um 20:18 schrieb Van Swofford:
> > Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> > 
> >> Markus Humm wrote:
> > > 
> >>> If it had arms, the toaster could take out the finished slices and
> >>> stick in new ones to be toasted without needing you to do so.
> > > 
> >> Our penthouse does not have arms.
> > > 
> >>  ANd:
> >>> penthouses can be large as well.
> > > 
> >> Oh, indeed.
> > 
> > But if it contains Apple mobile devices, it has ARMs.  :-)
> > 
> 
> Sort of, yes. But in that case they'd rather control the penthouse...
> So it's a bit debateable who's the owner: would perhaps one such ARM
> own the penthouse? ;-)

Perhaps so.  And if there are multiple devices, they might join forces
and build a walled garden on the rooftop.  :-)

-- 
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
0
Van
2/6/2015 1:01:01 AM
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

> Our place is completely unarmed. We live in a civilized place.

We live in a civilized place, too, but our place is pretty well armed.
Everybody needs a hobby!  :-)

-- 
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
0
Van
2/12/2015 1:01:01 AM
Am 12.02.2015 um 16:33 schrieb Van Swofford:
> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> 
>> Our place is completely unarmed. We live in a civilized place.
> 
> We live in a civilized place, too, but our place is pretty well armed.
> Everybody needs a hobby!  :-)
> 

Sure, but: everybody needs 2 arms, otherwise he's got no proper place to
attach his hands to (anatomically).

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
2/12/2015 1:01:01 AM
Markus Humm wrote:

> > Our penthouse does not have arms.
> 
> you still didn't get it: not the penthouse would have arms. 

Both the ref and the toaster are unarmed. 
-- 
Rudy Velthuis        http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?"
 -- H.M. Warner (1881-1958), founder of Warner Brothers, 
    in 1927
0
Rudy
2/12/2015 1:01:01 AM
Markus Humm wrote:

> If it had arms, the toaster could take out the finished slices and
> stick in new ones to be toasted without needing you to do so.

Our penthouse does not have arms.

 ANd:
> penthouses can be large as well.

Oh, indeed.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis        http://www.rvelthuis.de

 "Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
  Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
  Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
  Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
  Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
  Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
  The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a 
  snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words 
  that have changed their meaning. No one ever said elves are 
  nice. Elves are bad."
 -- Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies)
0
Rudy
2/12/2015 7:16:05 AM
Markus Humm wrote:

> > WTF are you talking about? We live in a penthouse, and it has no
> > arms.
> 
> If it had arms, 

Our place is completely unarmed. We live in a civilized place.

> penthouses can be large as well.

Oh, indeed.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis        http://www.rvelthuis.de

"It is better to be quotable than to be honest." -- Tom Stoppard
0
Rudy
2/12/2015 7:16:06 AM
Van Swofford wrote:

> > Our penthouse does not have arms.
> > 
> >  ANd:
> > > penthouses can be large as well.
> > 
> > Oh, indeed.
> 
> But if it contains Apple mobile devices, it has ARMs.  :-)

The ref and the toaster are completely unarmed. 

-- 
Rudy Velthuis        http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Never was anything great achieved without danger."
 -- Niccolo Machiavelli
0
Rudy
2/12/2015 7:19:52 AM
Markus Humm wrote:

> Am 12.02.2015 um 16:33 schrieb Van Swofford:
> > Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> > 
> >> Our place is completely unarmed. We live in a civilized place.
> > 
> > We live in a civilized place, too, but our place is pretty well
> > armed.  Everybody needs a hobby!  :-)
> > 
> 
> Sure, but: everybody needs 2 arms, otherwise he's got no proper place
> to attach his hands to (anatomically).

Exactly!  The hand bone connected to the arm bone, and the arms are
connected to the hands.  Bang!  :-)

-- 
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
0
Van
2/12/2015 10:23:59 PM
Van Swofford wrote:

> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> 
> > Our place is completely unarmed. We live in a civilized place.
> 
> We live in a civilized place, too, but our place is pretty well armed.

If you need arms, or think you need them, it is not really civilized,
IMO. But let's not discuss that here.
-- 
Rudy Velthuis        http://www.rvelthuis.de

Goebel's Second Law Of Useless Difficulty: The fastest way to get 
something done is to determine that it isn't worth doing.
0
Rudy
2/14/2015 4:12:31 PM
Reply:

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