Windows 10 and Delphi

So, this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfveyXCsiA8

WinRT may not be called WinRT but "Windows Store Apps" are not going
away.  Microsoft has been pushing and continues to push their
Universal Apps as the first-class way to build software for Windows
going forward, and it is now obvious that they are not limited to
tablet-ey devices and will be front-and-center on the desktop (in
windows, yay).  Windows Phone may never amount to much from a market
share standpoint but "Windows Store" already does.  When it comes to
consumer-level stuff, it's reasonable to think that eventually Windows
Store will be the place most people go for their Windows software.

Will the "ignore it and hope it goes away" strategy of Embarcadero
with regard to Windows Apps be revisited?  I know there was a lot of
talk about the difficulties of creating a third-party compiler for
WinRT three years ago but comments from Marco and others have clearly
painted a "we expect Microsoft to fail" attitude, and there seems
little indication that there is even a desire to make the option to
build Windows Store Apps a possibility.

Within a few years there will be nigh a billion devices running
Windows-whatever with Windows Store prominently in view.  Will anyone
still using Delphi to write applications be completely locked out of
this ecosystem?

First person to suggest the "metro style" VCL style gets to wear a
dunce cap. :-)

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
0
Brandon
10/1/2014 3:18:17 AM
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> {quote:title=Brandon Staggs wrote:}{quote}
> So, this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfveyXCsiA8
> 
> 
> Will the "ignore it and hope it goes away" strategy of Embarcadero
> with regard to Windows Apps be revisited?  I know there was a lot of
> talk about the difficulties of creating a third-party compiler for
> WinRT three years ago but comments from Marco and others have clearly
> painted a "we expect Microsoft to fail" attitude, and there seems
> little indication that there is even a desire to make the option to
> build Windows Store Apps a possibility.
> 

It is not much, but roadmap does mention new Windows and WinRT.

http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/43677

Features and Technologies After 2014
There are other platforms and features we are actively researching and investigating, and other technologies under evaluation that are not part of the current 2014 roadmap.

Support for Windows 8 ARM/WinRT(for the Windows Phone and/or the Windows RT desktop) 
Support for future version of desktop Windows that will be announced in 2014 

-- 
Dalija Prasnikar
0
Dalija
10/1/2014 1:01:01 AM
> {quote:title=Brandon Staggs wrote:}{quote}
> "Dalija Prasnikar" wrote on Wed, 1 Oct 2014 02:16:45 -0700:
> 
> > It is not much, but roadmap does mention new Windows and WinRT.
> > 
> > http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/43677
> 
> Thank you for the reminder, I do recall seeing that before.
> 
> If Delphi is to remain relevant as a Windows development tool they are
> going to have to get in on where Windows is going.
> 

Absolutely.

-- 
Dalija Prasnikar
0
Dalija
10/1/2014 1:01:01 AM
> {quote:title=Mike Margerum wrote:}{quote}
> > If Delphi is to remain relevant as a Windows development tool they are
> > going to have to get in on where Windows is going.
> >
> 
> Up till now windows hasn't been going anywhere based on the usage 
> numbers.   > 75% of people are still on windows 7 and below.  The 14% on 
> windows 8 / 8.1 are probably not even running RT apps so what boat has 
> EMB missed up till now?

So we first have to wait for boat to sail off and then we can say we missed it?

AFAIK you cannot sell Delphi compiled apps through MS App Store, because they
do not comply to all requirements. 

-- 
Dalija Prasnikar
0
Dalija
10/1/2014 1:01:01 AM
"Mike Margerum" wrote on Wed, 1 Oct 2014 08:12:55 -0700:

>> If Delphi is to remain relevant as a Windows development tool they are
>> going to have to get in on where Windows is going.
>>
> 
> Up till now windows hasn't been going anywhere based on the usage 
> numbers.   > 75% of people are still on windows 7 and below.  The 14% on 
> windows 8 / 8.1 are probably not even running RT apps

If Windows 8 "hasn't been going anywhere" then Mac OSX never got
anywhere, just looking at the numbers.

> so what boat has 
> EMB missed up till now?

Perhaps: EMB has missed the future of Windows.  More importantly,
small shops that produce consumer software that use Delphi exclusively
are locked out of a rapidly growing app space that already surpasses
Mac OSX.  Watch the Windows 10 video.  The complaints about WinRT apps
being "too big" and all that on desktops are a thing of the past.
Microsoft is putting these in front of their Enterprise customers and
giving them control over Windows Store usage/installation of apps/etc.
This is the future of Windows whether or not we like it.

There is a chance it will amount to nothing, but that is not likely,
and sitting there hoping Microsoft fails at keeping Windows relevant
is not much of a business strategy for a company that sells what is
still a Windows development IDE.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
0
Brandon
10/1/2014 1:01:01 AM
> Vista was a failure, but 7 was not. 10 could be something people want. Multiple desktops will be eventually available out of the box, and the hypervisor could be another reason to upgrade,

>compared to the 7 one. It would be a reason to switch to 8.1 too, if it didn't require utilities to get rid of the silly Start Menu (which is perfect on the Surface, but not on a 27" high res monitor...) DirectX 12 looks interesting, probably will be available for 8 as well, but I guess it won't be ported to 7.
>

Windows 10 looks great and it also looks like it will run win32/64 apps 
great.  Heck even windows 8.1 is pretty nice.  Especially since I can 
boot right to the desktop i actually use instead of the other one no one 
uses.
0
Mike
10/1/2014 1:01:01 AM
On 01/10/14 13:20, Luigi Sandon wrote:
> Now that XP has been EOLed, while 2003 will be next July, there's really no need to mantain compatibility with NT4 and Windows 9x....

Java 8 dropped support for XP already.

http://www.java.com/en/download/faq/winxp.xml

OTOH, there are a lot of XP and older machines still out there in 
various production environments.
0
Jouni
10/1/2014 1:01:01 AM
I still don't know about WinRT. It just seems to be an unnecessary OS. 
Maybe it was needed because the devices were not powerful enough to 
run the "normal" Windows OS, but at the moment the newest devices 
running full Windows 8.1 are launched for a incredible low prize about 
100-200 dollars. (HP Steam 7 and Steam 8) Soon it will be possible to 
run Windows on a mobile Phone also.

http://blogs.windows.com/bloggingwindows/2014/09/29/new-hp-stream-thin-and-light-windows-notebooks-and-tablets-including-99-stream-7-tablet-just-unveiled/
0
Robert
10/1/2014 7:43:01 AM
> I still don't know about WinRT. 

Yes.

> It just seems to be an unnecessary OS.  Maybe it was needed because the devices were not powerful enough to 

No. It allows to "sandbox" apps like those you find in iOS or Android - thereby they should be less susceptibles to attacks.

Also WinRT apps ("Metro" apps) have far better touch input support than "Win32 API" ones. 

And yes, it forces you to download them from the "store" as well - this model has been soooo successful that MS wants its share as well.

> run the "normal" Windows OS, but at the moment the newest devices 
> running full Windows 8.1 are launched for a incredible low prize about 

And all of them support WinRT and are delivered with WinRT apps. 

> run Windows on a mobile Phone also.

Windows runs already on mobile phones. Windows Phone is derived from Windows, and MS plan is to full unify apps (and APIs...) across the platfrom - but those apps *won't be* the plain Win32 API ones - they will be built on the new API...
0
Luigi
10/1/2014 10:07:59 AM
Don't worry, around 2025 Delphi will start to support newer Windows feature. Maybe thirty years after Windows 95 Emb will understand those times are over... and it's not WinRT only - look at TService implementation, unless it has been changed in XE (Update Pack) 7 it still uses only NT era APIs deprecated since Windows 2000. And that's only one of the areas where VCL is really outdated - some skins don't help to be really "modern".

Now that XP has been EOLed, while 2003 will be next July, there's really no need to mantain compatibility with NT4 and Windows 9x....

When it undersand security needs I'm not sure, though... they keep on delivering remoting libraries but stubbornly refuse to secure them properly. The subnet was a "security feature"? Well now, it's no longer....

And that's really worrisome - it looks like big data breach that got a lot of publicity lately are totally unknown to them (maybe they didn't reach Iasi and Alicante?) - or they hope Delphi applications are so under the radar noone will ever blame one....
0
Luigi
10/1/2014 10:17:18 AM
Don't worry, around 2025 Delphi will start to support newer Windows feature. Maybe thirty years after Windows 95 Emb will understand those times are over... and it's not WinRT only - look at TService implementation, unless it has been changed in XE (Update Pack) 7 it still uses only NT era APIs deprecated since Windows 2000. And that's only one of the areas where VCL is really outdated - some skins don't help to be really "modern".

Now that XP has been EOLed, while 2003 will be next July, there's really no need to mantain compatibility with NT4 and Windows 9x....

When it undersands security needs I'm not sure, though... it keeps on delivering remoting libraries but stubbornly refuse to secure them properly. The subnet was a "security feature"? Well now, it lloks it's no longer (and it was never...)

And that's really worrisome - it looks like big data breach that got a lot of publicity lately are totally unknown to them (maybe they didn't reach Iasi and Alicante?) - or they hope Delphi applications are so under the radar noone will ever blame one....
1
Luigi
10/1/2014 10:20:45 AM
"Robert Triest" wrote on Wed, 1 Oct 2014 00:43:01 -0700:

> I still don't know about WinRT. It just seems to be an unnecessary OS. 
> Maybe it was needed because the devices were not powerful enough to 
> run the "normal" Windows OS,

No, it has nothing to do with that.  There are WinRT apps that are
power-hungry -- there are modern 3D racing games/etc in the Windows
Store.

It's more about sandboxing and other end-user benefits.  There are
APIs that are very useful, such as share contracts, too.  The amount
of UI stuff that you get "for free" as an app developer is very
significant (although it goes completely against the FMX model Emb has
pursued so this is probably a big reason why we won't see Delphi
here).

> but at the moment the newest devices 
> running full Windows 8.1 are launched for a incredible low prize about 

Yes, I know, and I am glad.  I recently got an Asus VivoTab Note 8.
It runs desktop win32 applications very acceptably but I still mostly
use WinRT apps because they are better suited to the form factor.

The fact that Windows 8 (not Windows RT) is showing up on these small
inexpensive tablets is good and means win32 apps won't be disappearing
any time soon, but it remains that Microsoft has been pushing Windows
Store Apps as the first-class application model for three years, and
with the Windows 10 reveal it is obvious that they are not giving up.
Since these will now get full desktop interoperability and the jarring
duality of Windows 8 is going away, these apps become MORE prominent,
not less.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
0
Brandon
10/1/2014 12:59:40 PM
"Dalija Prasnikar" wrote on Wed, 1 Oct 2014 02:16:45 -0700:

> It is not much, but roadmap does mention new Windows and WinRT.
> 
> http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/43677

Thank you for the reminder, I do recall seeing that before.

If Delphi is to remain relevant as a Windows development tool they are
going to have to get in on where Windows is going.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
0
Brandon
10/1/2014 1:02:23 PM
> If Delphi is to remain relevant as a Windows development tool they are
> going to have to get in on where Windows is going.
>

Up till now windows hasn't been going anywhere based on the usage 
numbers.   > 75% of people are still on windows 7 and below.  The 14% on 
windows 8 / 8.1 are probably not even running RT apps so what boat has 
EMB missed up till now?
0
Mike
10/1/2014 3:12:55 PM
> Up till now windows hasn't been going anywhere based on the usage 
> numbers.   > 75% of people are still on windows 7 and below.  The 14% on 
> windows 8 / 8.1 are probably not even running RT apps so what boat has 
> EMB missed up till now?

Vista was a failure, but 7 was not. 10 could be something people want. Multiple desktops will be eventually available out of the box, and the hypervisor could be another reason to upgrade, compared to the 7 one. It would be a reason to switch to 8.1 too, if it didn't require utilities to get rid of the silly Start Menu (which is perfect on the Surface, but not on a 27" high res monitor...) DirectX 12 looks interesting, probably will be available for 8 as well, but I guess it won't be ported to 7.

If you're using 8.x on a touch device you do use WinRT apps, the desktop ones really don't work well with touch - on a Surface with the stylus are usable, but they are really designed for keyboard and mouse interaction. For example browsing on the Surface is much more natural with the WinRT IExplorer than with the desktop one. Same for the mail app,

And while as usual all the media report are about the interface, I'm waiting to see what changes under the hood. Windows 7 will be six years old when 10 is released, and hardware changed enough in those years.
0
Luigi
10/1/2014 6:27:55 PM
> Perhaps: EMB has missed the future of Windows.  More importantly,
> small shops that produce consumer software that use Delphi exclusively
> are locked out of a rapidly growing app space that already surpasses
> Mac OSX.  Watch the Windows 10 video.  The complaints about WinRT apps
> being "too big" and all that on desktops are a thing of the past.
> Microsoft is putting these in front of their Enterprise customers and
> giving them control over Windows Store usage/installation of apps/etc.
> This is the future of Windows whether or not we like it.
>

How can they have missed something that hasn't shipped yet and probably 
wont for another year?  Windows RT and metro have been a total and 
complete failure in the marketplace and EMB was smart to not put 
resources into it.

> There is a chance it will amount to nothing, but that is not likely,
> and sitting there hoping Microsoft fails at keeping Windows relevant
> is not much of a business strategy for a company that sells what is
> still a Windows development IDE.
>
So EMB should spend money on r&d for something that might not fail?
0
Mike
10/1/2014 10:36:42 PM
> So we first have to wait for boat to sail off and then we can say we missed it?
>

We can at least wait for the Boat to have a hull.
0
Mike
10/1/2014 10:37:29 PM
> If Windows 8 "hasn't been going anywhere" then Mac OSX never got
> anywhere, just looking at the numbers.
>

new OS uptake on the mac desktop platform is a whole lot better than 
windows.

45% of users are running Mavericks.

I guess you mean in overall market share.  Either way it doesn't have 
much to do with the subject matter at hand which is whether it's worth 
EMB investing in store apps.
0
Mike
10/1/2014 10:40:19 PM
> {quote:title=Dalija Prasnikar wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=Brandon Staggs wrote:}{quote}
> > So, this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfveyXCsiA8
> > 
> > 
> > Will the "ignore it and hope it goes away" strategy of Embarcadero
> > with regard to Windows Apps be revisited?  I know there was a lot of
> > talk about the difficulties of creating a third-party compiler for
> > WinRT three years ago but comments from Marco and others have clearly
> > painted a "we expect Microsoft to fail" attitude, and there seems
> > little indication that there is even a desire to make the option to
> > build Windows Store Apps a possibility.
> > 
> 
> It is not much, but roadmap does mention new Windows and WinRT.
> 
> http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/43677
> 
> Features and Technologies After 2014
> There are other platforms and features we are actively researching and investigating, and other technologies under evaluation that are not part of the current 2014 roadmap.
> 
> Support for Windows 8 ARM/WinRT(for the Windows Phone and/or the Windows RT desktop) 
> Support for future version of desktop Windows that will be announced in 2014 

I wouldn't put much stock in that...  I chased roadmap pipe dreams for the better part of a decade before realizing that AT BEST delphi would support something after if had been out long enough that something else was now the next big thing...  and they would support that a couple years after its day in the limelight had past.   

I've been given the same answer repeatedly about why Windows Store apps aren't supported...  its because microsoft has control of this or that (designers, apis not publically available, etc) that make it more difficult to support so they are waiting on microsoft.   Btw, that was the same answer that I got for the entire life of Windows CE compact framework.   It was always on a roadmap, even had hacked semi-support for it in a release or two but never really there and pulled rather than completed.     I e
xpect the same for windows store apps. 

I've been developing windows store apps for over a year now using the free visual studio express and Javascript... ported a few of my native directX graphics apps and they are actually faster in the javascript app.   The APIs are optimized well.     I would love to see embarcadero support windows store but if I had to bet money we will likely be on Windows 12 (without skipping any numbers and maybe a few .1 .2 releases in between) before emcarcadero moves that direction. 



> 
> -- 
> Dalija Prasnikar
0
Dan
10/1/2014 10:53:14 PM
> {quote:title=Robert Triest wrote:}{quote}
> I still don't know about WinRT. It just seems to be an unnecessary OS. 
> Maybe it was needed because the devices were not powerful enough to 
> run the "normal" Windows OS, but at the moment the newest devices 
> running full Windows 8.1 are launched for a incredible low prize about 
> 100-200 dollars. (HP Steam 7 and Steam 8) Soon it will be possible to 
> run Windows on a mobile Phone also.
> 
> http://blogs.windows.com/bloggingwindows/2014/09/29/new-hp-stream-thin-and-light-windows-notebooks-and-tablets-including-99-stream-7-tablet-just-unveiled/

WinRT is the future because its sand boxed and processor independent.   Both of these are huge going forward,  it adds more security, makes for a more stable system and leaves it open to be ported to whatever processors might come along in the future without losing backward compatibility.    Personally, the further away from the Iron an app gets the less I like it...  but I understand the value in it and why they are pushing to go that direction.   In a way all the nice low powered intel chips we are seei
ng in tablets today exist because microsoft ported Windows to ARM which threatened and lit a fire under Intel.
0
Dan
10/1/2014 10:57:21 PM
> Agreed; you brought it up.
>

I brought up mac vs windows market share?  don't think so.

I brought up the windows version statistics to illustrate that most 
people don't own windows 8 and so EMB hasn't missed the boat on 
targeting Metro.

>> at hand which is whether it's worth
>> EMB investing in store apps.
>
> The question is whether or not EMB wants to be able to continue
> offering the best Windows development tool.  They can't do that if
> they only support legacy Windows development.  I think it is
> reasonable to infer that Emb is more interested in Android and iOS
> than it is in Windows going forward.
>

I definitely agree that need to invest more in windows development. 
Both VCL and FM.  It might be time for them to start looking at Metro 
support as well since it seems like m$ is finally serious about making 
it useful for desktops.
0
Mike
10/2/2014 1:01:01 AM
> {quote:title=Mike Margerum wrote:}{quote}
> On 10/2/14 4:52 AM, Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
> >> {quote:title=Mike Margerum wrote:}{quote}
> >>> So we first have to wait for boat to sail off and then we can say we missed it?
> >>>
> >>
> >> We can at least wait for the Boat to have a hull.
> >
> > Boat already got a hull with Windows 8. At the time we were informed that
> > MS is to blame, but we haven't heard anything since.
> >
> 75% of people don't have that hull and the other 25% who do have that 
> hull don't use it.  I'm not saying it isn't the future, i'm just saying 
> EMB hasn't missed the boat yet because uptake has been so bad for windows 8.
> 

I didn't say they missed the boat, just that time to start acting is now rather than later. 

-- 
Dalija Prasnikar
0
Dalija
10/2/2014 1:01:01 AM
Brandon Staggs wrote:

> "Mike Margerum" wrote on Wed, 1 Oct 2014 08:12:55 -0700:
> 
> >> If Delphi is to remain relevant as a Windows development tool they
> are >> going to have to get in on where Windows is going.
> > > 
> > 
> > Up till now windows hasn't been going anywhere based on the usage 
> > numbers.   > 75% of people are still on windows 7 and below.  The
> > 14% on windows 8 / 8.1 are probably not even running RT apps
> 
> If Windows 8 "hasn't been going anywhere" then Mac OSX never got
> anywhere, just looking at the numbers.

Difference is that Windows seems to be losing popularity rapidly,
unlike OS X.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis        http://www.rvelthuis.de

"To be wronged is nothing unless you continue to remember it."
 -- Confucius
0
Rudy
10/2/2014 1:01:01 AM
On 2014-10-02 08:00, Moritz Beutel wrote:
> - they keep using the mouse-unfriendly Modern UI file dialogs, not the Win32 ones

Oh, my pet hate of Windows! People keep saying how inconsistent Linux
desktops are.... Hell, look a bit closer to home. I counted 6 different
"File Open" dialogs in various Windows applications I have installed on
my work laptop. All work different, all have different features, all
have different (non-customizable - unlike Linux/FreeBSD)
favourites/shotcuts on the left.

Thank goodness I switched my primary OS to FreeBSD (before it was Linux
for a couple of years). I now only use Windows for testing, or when I'm
forced to at work. I get so frustrated every time I have to use it! :-/

I'm pretty sure Windows 10 will introduce yet another File Open dialog.

Regards,
  - Graeme -
0
Graeme
10/2/2014 1:01:01 AM
Hello,

> {quote:title=Brandon Staggs wrote:}{quote}
> 
> WinRT may not be called WinRT but "Windows Store Apps" are not going
> away.  Microsoft has been pushing and continues to push their
> Universal Apps as the first-class way to build software for Windows
> going forward, and it is now obvious that they are not limited to
> tablet-ey devices and will be front-and-center on the desktop (in
> windows, yay).

this seems hard to believe for me. I understand that Modern UI apps are now more convenient to use on the desktop because they behave like normal desktop applications in the window manager. But they don't behave like a desktop UI does:

- they keep using the mouse-unfriendly Modern UI file dialogs, not the Win32 ones
- they tend to hide commands in favor of screen estate; this works if you can swipe in to see commands, but this is inherently inconvenient with keyboard & mouse
- unlike most Win32 apps they don't use subpixel-antialiased ClearType, which makes them stand out visually (not on the positive side)
- many Modern UI controls are visually presented in a way intricately associated with touch, e.g. checkboxes as slider controls
- there is no API for menus or for toolbar-like or Ribbon-like UI in more complex scenarios
- they always use UI fonts almost twice as large as normal desktop apps

Of course we haven't seen all of Windows 10 yet. Perhaps in the future a binding to WPF is offered for Universal applications. And I understand the benefits of Modern apps for all sides involved: the users get a locked-down app which is fairly safe to try and download, programmers get an API that makes doing the right thing very easy, and Microsoft gets 20-30% of your sales. But still I would prefer not to inflict this UI experience upon my desktop users.

Again, we agree that Windows 10 may change the picture, and I think Embarcadero should support Modern Apps. But I don't think it is urgent as a way forward for VCL developers, yet.

--
Moritz

"Hey, it compiles! Ship it!"
0
Moritz
10/2/2014 7:00:57 AM
> OTOH, there are a lot of XP and older machines still out there in 
> various production environments.

Just you're going to support them if needed with older development tools. There's no need to support it in newer ones, at the cost of not be able to use any new OS feature introduced in the past thirteen years. Otherwise it just look like an excuse to avoid to update your products.

After all, when Delphi 2 was released, if you needed to support Win 3.x application you had to use Delphi 1 - and it made sense.

But as said, Delphi is often even worse, because it contains a lot of Windows NT/9.x era code never updated. Supporting some taskbar feature won't make it a "modern" development tool if under the hood it is not.

Unsupported OS are already vulnerable, thereby using older unsupported tools is not an issue, if you need to use them you need to fully protect them outside the system itself.
0
Luigi
10/2/2014 7:05:16 AM
Mike Margerum wrote:

>  Heck even windows 8.1 is pretty nice.  Especially since I can 
> boot right to the desktop i actually use instead of the other one no
> one uses.

Absolutely.  Even before 8.1, though, there was the magnificent
Stardock Start8.  Best five dollars I ever spent.  It provides booting
directly to the desktop, plus a Start menu just like Windows 7.
Totally the best of all worlds.

Another five bucks got ModerMix, which runs Modern apps in windows on
the desktop, like W10 will.

Excellent stuff, and Start8 completely transformed my daily experience
of Windows 8/8.1 to the point where I now think it's a great OS.

-- 
SteveT
0
Steve
10/2/2014 8:40:04 AM
> {quote:title=Mike Margerum wrote:}{quote}
> > So we first have to wait for boat to sail off and then we can say we missed it?
> >
> 
> We can at least wait for the Boat to have a hull.

Boat already got a hull with Windows 8. At the time we were informed that
MS is to blame, but we haven't heard anything since. 

-- 
Dalija Prasnikar
0
Dalija
10/2/2014 8:52:22 AM
> {quote:title=Dan Ridenhour wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=Dalija Prasnikar wrote:}{quote}
> > > {quote:title=Brandon Staggs wrote:}{quote}
> > > So, this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfveyXCsiA8
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Will the "ignore it and hope it goes away" strategy of Embarcadero
> > > with regard to Windows Apps be revisited?  I know there was a lot of
> > > talk about the difficulties of creating a third-party compiler for
> > > WinRT three years ago but comments from Marco and others have clearly
> > > painted a "we expect Microsoft to fail" attitude, and there seems
> > > little indication that there is even a desire to make the option to
> > > build Windows Store Apps a possibility.
> > > 
> > 
> > It is not much, but roadmap does mention new Windows and WinRT.
> > 
> > http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/43677
> > 
> > Features and Technologies After 2014
> > There are other platforms and features we are actively researching and investigating, and other technologies under evaluation that are not part of the current 2014 roadmap.
> > 
> > Support for Windows 8 ARM/WinRT(for the Windows Phone and/or the Windows RT desktop) 
> > Support for future version of desktop Windows that will be announced in 2014 
> 
> I wouldn't put much stock in that...  I chased roadmap pipe dreams for the better part of a decade before realizing that AT BEST delphi would support something after if had been out long enough that something else was now the next big thing...  and they would support that a couple years after its day in the limelight had past.   
> 

Agreed. 

I had my share of Waiting for Godot with Delphi, and I am not going to
make that mistake again. If they can provide me with what I need when
I need it, fine, if not I am not going to wait another second longer.

-- 
Dalija Prasnikar
0
Dalija
10/2/2014 8:57:20 AM
> {quote:title=Brandon Staggs wrote:}{quote}
> So, this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfveyXCsiA8
> 
> WinRT may not be called WinRT but "Windows Store Apps" are not going
> away.  Microsoft has been pushing and continues to push their
> Universal Apps as the first-class way to build software for Windows
> going forward, and it is now obvious that they are not limited to
> tablet-ey devices and will be front-and-center on the desktop (in
> windows, yay).  Windows Phone may never amount to much from a market
> share standpoint but "Windows Store" already does.  When it comes to
> consumer-level stuff, it's reasonable to think that eventually Windows
> Store will be the place most people go for their Windows software.
> 
> Will the "ignore it and hope it goes away" strategy of Embarcadero
> with regard to Windows Apps be revisited?  I know there was a lot of
> talk about the difficulties of creating a third-party compiler for
> WinRT three years ago but comments from Marco and others have clearly
> painted a "we expect Microsoft to fail" attitude, and there seems
> little indication that there is even a desire to make the option to
> build Windows Store Apps a possibility.
> 
> Within a few years there will be nigh a billion devices running
> Windows-whatever with Windows Store prominently in view.  Will anyone
> still using Delphi to write applications be completely locked out of
> this ecosystem?
> 
> First person to suggest the "metro style" VCL style gets to wear a
> dunce cap. :-)
> 
I too would like Delphi to provide support for Windows Store apps. But the last time I raised this question in these newsgroups someone drew my attention to a commercial-technical problem preventing Embarcadero providing this support. See:

http://www.itwriting.com/blog/6347-third-party-compilers-locked-out-of-windows-runtime-development.html/comment-page-1

The link to the Allen Bauer Blog that this article refers to no longer works. Does this mean that a large amount of the EMBT website and forum data has recently been lost, possibly forever? I am thinking of when the forum website was down for several data recently. If that's the case, it does not inspire much confidence in the reliability of EMBT's database tools and or in EMBT's internal management procedures for backup and safeguarding of data!

EM
0
Enquiring
10/2/2014 10:08:41 AM
"Mike Margerum" wrote on Wed, 1 Oct 2014 15:40:19 -0700:

> Either way it doesn't have 
> much to do with the subject matter 

Agreed; you brought it up.

> at hand which is whether it's worth 
> EMB investing in store apps.

The question is whether or not EMB wants to be able to continue
offering the best Windows development tool.  They can't do that if
they only support legacy Windows development.  I think it is
reasonable to infer that Emb is more interested in Android and iOS
than it is in Windows going forward.

That said, I do appreciate what has been done for XE7.  I still love
using Delphi, but I am disappointed that the future of the most
ubiquitous operating system seems, at least for now, to be totally
unavailable to Delphi developers.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
0
Brandon
10/2/2014 10:57:46 AM
On 10/2/14 4:52 AM, Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
>> {quote:title=Mike Margerum wrote:}{quote}
>>> So we first have to wait for boat to sail off and then we can say we missed it?
>>>
>>
>> We can at least wait for the Boat to have a hull.
>
> Boat already got a hull with Windows 8. At the time we were informed that
> MS is to blame, but we haven't heard anything since.
>
75% of people don't have that hull and the other 25% who do have that 
hull don't use it.  I'm not saying it isn't the future, i'm just saying 
EMB hasn't missed the boat yet because uptake has been so bad for windows 8.

Personally, i'd love to see a locked down windows 10 laptop running on 
Intel that only runs locked down metro apps and office.  Be great for 
business use.
0
Mike
10/2/2014 11:02:06 AM
"Mike Margerum" wrote on Thu, 2 Oct 2014 04:07:10 -0700:

>> Agreed; you brought it up.
>>
> 
> I brought up mac vs windows market share?  don't think so.
> 
> I brought up the windows version statistics to illustrate that most 
> people don't own windows 8 and so EMB hasn't missed the boat on 
> targeting Metro.

That is a market share argument.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
0
Brandon
10/2/2014 11:32:16 AM
Mike Margerum wrote:

> > If Windows 8 "hasn't been going anywhere" then Mac OSX never got
> > anywhere, just looking at the numbers.
> > 
> 
> new OS uptake on the mac desktop platform is a whole lot better than 
> windows.
> 
> 45% of users are running Mavericks.

Indeed. Although I guess the fact that Mavericks is free (as in beer)
may have something to do with that too. <g>

After all, Apple sells hardware. The software, even the OS, is only
there to support the hardware sales. That is why many apps from Apple
are cheap or free. Just compare the price of Xcode with that of Visual
Studio. <g>

-- 
Rudy Velthuis        http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The purpose of software engineering is to control complexity,
 not to create it." -- Dr. Pamela Zave
0
Rudy
10/2/2014 4:14:24 PM
Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:

> Oh, my pet hate of Windows! People keep saying how inconsistent Linux
> desktops are.... Hell, look a bit closer to home. I counted 6
> different "File Open" dialogs in various Windows applications I have
> installed on my work laptop. All work different, all have different
> features, all have different (non-customizable - unlike Linux/FreeBSD)
> favourites/shotcuts on the left.

To be honest, though, they are all in there because MS want to maintain
compatibility for pre-historic software.  There have been new dialogs
released every so often, but the old ones remain to serve old programs.

What irritates me isn't so much that the OS has been modernised over
time, but that some applications choose to roll their own dialogs,
ostensibly because the standard ones won't provide the necessary
features.  Office has always done this, as far as I know, and probably
with good reason.  But it's a bore when it's done with no obvious
reason other than vanity on the part of the publisher.

On the whole, I think your complaint is completely valid but is more to
do with application publishers than Windows itself.

-- 
SteveT
0
Steve
10/2/2014 5:57:09 PM
Am 02.10.2014 12:08, schrieb Enquiring Mind:
>> {quote:title=Brandon Staggs wrote:}{quote}
>> So, this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfveyXCsiA8
>>
>> WinRT may not be called WinRT but "Windows Store Apps" are not going
>> away.  Microsoft has been pushing and continues to push their
>> Universal Apps as the first-class way to build software for Windows
>> going forward, and it is now obvious that they are not limited to
>> tablet-ey devices and will be front-and-center on the desktop (in
>> windows, yay).  Windows Phone may never amount to much from a market
>> share standpoint but "Windows Store" already does.  When it comes to
>> consumer-level stuff, it's reasonable to think that eventually Windows
>> Store will be the place most people go for their Windows software.
>>
>> Will the "ignore it and hope it goes away" strategy of Embarcadero
>> with regard to Windows Apps be revisited?  I know there was a lot of
>> talk about the difficulties of creating a third-party compiler for
>> WinRT three years ago but comments from Marco and others have clearly
>> painted a "we expect Microsoft to fail" attitude, and there seems
>> little indication that there is even a desire to make the option to
>> build Windows Store Apps a possibility.
>>
>> Within a few years there will be nigh a billion devices running
>> Windows-whatever with Windows Store prominently in view.  Will anyone
>> still using Delphi to write applications be completely locked out of
>> this ecosystem?
>>
>> First person to suggest the "metro style" VCL style gets to wear a
>> dunce cap. :-)
>>
> I too would like Delphi to provide support for Windows Store apps. But the last time I raised this question in these newsgroups someone drew my attention to a commercial-technical problem preventing Embarcadero providing this support. See:
> 
> http://www.itwriting.com/blog/6347-third-party-compilers-locked-out-of-windows-runtime-development.html/comment-page-1
> 
> The link to the Allen Bauer Blog that this article refers to no longer works. Does this mean that a large amount of the EMBT website and forum data has recently been lost, possibly forever? I am thinking of when the forum website was down for several data recently. If that's the case, it does not inspire much confidence in the reliability of EMBT's database tools and or in EMBT's internal management procedures for backup and safeguarding of data!
> 
> EM
> 

Hello,

I think blogs have been migrated lately, so it might just be that the
URL is no longer correct.

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
10/2/2014 6:06:06 PM
summary :

http://www.delphitools.info/2012/08/23/why-no-native-winrt-support-in-delphi-xe3/
0
Robert
10/3/2014 1:01:01 AM
Enquiring Mind wrote:

> The link to the Allen Bauer Blog that this article refers to no
> longer works. Does this mean that a large amount of the EMBT website
> and forum data has recently been lost, possibly forever?

They moved the blogs to http://www.embarcadero.com/blog/, I think.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis        http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions."
 -- Leonardo da Vinci
0
Rudy
10/3/2014 1:01:01 AM
"Robert Triest" wrote on Fri, 3 Oct 2014 00:18:12 -0700:

> summary :
> 
> http://www.delphitools.info/2012/08/23/why-no-native-winrt-support-in-delphi-xe3/

Good followup info here in the comments:

http://www.itwriting.com/blog/6347-third-party-compilers-locked-out-of-windows-runtime-development.html

That was two years ago.  Microsoft has made many changes in Windows 8
since then and I am curious how much of that is the same.  (Genuine
curiosity; I have no idea.)

The W10 tech preview availability and info dump makes it obvious (at
least to me) that Steven Sinofsky's culture of secrecy and "we don't
need anyone's input" attitude is gone -- perhaps the lines of
communication are now open enough for Embarcadero to make progress. 

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
0
Brandon
10/3/2014 1:00:03 PM
Hello,

> To be honest, though, they are all in there because MS want to maintain
> compatibility for pre-historic software.  There have been new dialogs
> released every so often, but the old ones remain to serve old programs.

the way the old dialogs could be customized was too intrusive for them to be silently replaced. This is something that changed in the Vista dialogs: they define a flexible interface for additional controls.


> What irritates me isn't so much that the OS has been modernised over
> time, but that some applications choose to roll their own dialogs,
> ostensibly because the standard ones won't provide the necessary
> features.  Office has always done this, as far as I know, and probably
> with good reason.

Recent Office no longer does this. I suppose the extensibility of the Vista dialogs was partly driven by the demands of Office.

To wrap it up, this is no longer an OS issue since Vista. There is even a proper folder selection dialog which, unfortunately, almost nobody uses. We only have to wait until all programmers switch to the new dialogs, or until the software with bad old dialogs dies out. (And of course Windows itself needs to stop using the old dialogs.)

--
Moritz

"Hey, it compiles! Ship it!"
0
Moritz
10/3/2014 5:35:59 PM
Hello,

> {quote:title=Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:}{quote}
> > - they keep using the mouse-unfriendly Modern UI file dialogs, not the Win32 ones
> 
> Oh, my pet hate of Windows!
> <unsolicited off-topic rant snipped>

note that I'm talking about the Modern UI file dialogs. They are different +on purpose+, because none of the classic dialogs works well with touch. Your dialog discomfort does not apply here.

--
Moritz

"Hey, it compiles! Ship it!"
0
Moritz
10/3/2014 5:41:45 PM
Am 03.10.2014 19:35, schrieb Moritz Beutel:
> Hello,
> 
>> To be honest, though, they are all in there because MS want to maintain
>> compatibility for pre-historic software.  There have been new dialogs
>> released every so often, but the old ones remain to serve old programs.
> 
> the way the old dialogs could be customized was too intrusive for them to be silently replaced. This is something that changed in the Vista dialogs: they define a flexible interface for additional controls.
> 
> 
>> What irritates me isn't so much that the OS has been modernised over
>> time, but that some applications choose to roll their own dialogs,
>> ostensibly because the standard ones won't provide the necessary
>> features.  Office has always done this, as far as I know, and probably
>> with good reason.
> 
> Recent Office no longer does this. I suppose the extensibility of the Vista dialogs was partly driven by the demands of Office.
> 
> To wrap it up, this is no longer an OS issue since Vista. There is even a proper folder selection dialog which, unfortunately, almost nobody uses. We only have to wait until all programmers switch to the new dialogs, or until the software with bad old dialogs dies out. (And of course Windows itself needs to stop using the old dialogs.)
> 

Hello,

does Delphi's VCL have this new document selection dialog covered already?

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
10/3/2014 6:44:34 PM
> WinRT is the future because its sand boxed and processor independent.
 > Both of these are huge going forward,  it adds more security, makes
 > for a more stable system and ...

Heard exactly the same things about .NET
0
Konstantine
10/4/2014 1:01:01 AM
"Konstantine Poukhov" wrote on Fri, 3 Oct 2014 20:18:54 -0700:

>> WinRT is the future because its sand boxed and processor independent.
>  > Both of these are huge going forward,  it adds more security, makes
>  > for a more stable system and ...
> 
> Heard exactly the same things about .NET

Unsurprisingly, most Windows development is in .NET these days.  Most
places I go and people I talk to (outside of Delphi shops and forums)
assume if you are a Windows developer that you're using .NET and VS.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
0
Brandon
10/4/2014 1:01:01 AM
"Pasquale Esposito" wrote on Fri, 3 Oct 2014 23:17:09 -0700:

>> {quote:title=Konstantine Poukhov wrote:}{quote}
>>> WinRT is the future because its sand boxed and processor independent.
>>  > Both of these are huge going forward,  it adds more security, makes
>>  > for a more stable system and ...
>> 
>> Heard exactly the same things about .NET
> 
> I think you are right. It would be naive to take for granted that
> WinRT is the future.

As much as I like the desktop, it is somewhat a wasteland, and I think
the poor experience *average* users who care to know the details of
installing software about as much as they care to know how to install
a new fuel filter in their car get on the desktop is going to drive
people to the easy app-store stuff.  It's already that way on tablets
and phones.

> Most PC users like Windows because it allows
> them to install their software on more than one computer.

All of my WinRT app purchases are automatically available to me on all
of my Windows 8 machines.  I don't even need to go looking for an
install file or serial number.

> They like
> putting the setup file on a USB stick,

I doubt most PC users even know how to do that.  I sell software on
DVD and by download.  I am always fielding questions about "how to
install it on more than one computer" -- this is something you and I
take as obvious but typical "don't care about computers, just need to
use them" people don't have the working knowledge to make these things
obvious.

Look at what Microsoft and Adobe are doing with their flagship suites.
Subscribe to Office and just go to a web site to install it on your
computers.  Adobe is subscription and you don't need to save installer
files either. 

Don't misunderstand me -- as a developer and ISV I really dislike the
whole app store concept.  But it is what people have come to expect.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
0
Brandon
10/4/2014 1:01:01 AM
"Nick Hodges" wrote on Sat, 4 Oct 2014 12:54:05 -0700:

> Mike Margerum wrote:
> 
>> Personally, i'd love to see a locked down windows 10 laptop running
>> on Intel that only runs locked down metro apps and office.  Be great
>> for business use.
> 
> Or you could just buy a ChromeBook.  ;-)

Why would you do that?  You can get comparable Windows hardware for
the same price and run the same stuff a ChromeBook can run, plus you
can run actual real software, too, unlike a Chromebook.

Windows zero-dollar licensing means Chromebooks are pointless.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
0
Brandon
10/4/2014 1:01:01 AM
> > There is even a proper folder selection dialog which, unfortunately, almost nobody uses. We only have to wait until all programmers switch to the new dialogs, or until the software with bad old dialogs dies out. (And of course Windows itself needs to stop using the old dialogs.)
> > 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> does Delphi's VCL have this new document selection dialog covered already?

On the assumption you meant folder not document... it's been available since D2007 through TFileOpenDialog, though SelectDirectory in the VCL hasn't been updated. SelectDirectory in FMX (latest versions at least) has, though in traditional FMX style it's a bit buggy (see https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-9432?filter=-2).
0
Chris
10/4/2014 1:01:01 AM
On 2014-10-03 18:35, Moritz Beutel wrote:
> To wrap it up, this is no longer an OS issue since Vista.

Huh? Maybe Microsoft developers should try Gnome 2 or KDE 3.5. Yes both
have been replaced with newer major versions, but my point is such old
releases still had better usability than Microsoft today [I'm forced to
use Windows 7 at work].

eg #1: In Gnome File dialogs I simply drag a file into the dialog and it
switches to that directory and selects the file I dragged in. I can then
easily select other files I knew was in the same directory as the
dragged file.

eg #2: Drag a folder to the Favourites section for quick access the next
time.

eg #3: Same as two above, but no limit on number of favourites. Why oh
why did Microsoft think 5 items is the max anybody would ever need.

eg #4: Customising your favourites can be done directly in the File Open
dialog. Unlike Microsoft's solution of having to edit the registry.

That's just items for the File Open dialog. Hell, I still have a boat
load of other complains about Windows UI and behaviour. But that's a
topic for another newsgroup. :-)



Regards,
  - Graeme -
0
Graeme
10/4/2014 1:01:01 AM
On 2014-10-04 23:21, Chris Rolliston wrote:
> though in traditional FMX style it's a bit buggy 

:-)  What isn't in FMX!?!

I always thought CLX was a too buggy framework to be released to the
public, but FMX sure takes the cake!

Regards,
  - Graeme -
0
Graeme
10/4/2014 1:01:01 AM
> {quote:title=Konstantine Poukhov wrote:}{quote}
> > WinRT is the future because its sand boxed and processor independent.
>  > Both of these are huge going forward,  it adds more security, makes
>  > for a more stable system and ...
> 
> Heard exactly the same things about .NET

I think you are right. It would be naive to take for granted that WinRT is the future. Most PC users like Windows because it allows them to install their software on more than one computer. They like putting the setup file on a USB stick, paste it to another PC and install it. MS are trying to embrace the distribution system adopted by Apple for iOS applications. Nevertheless, unlike Microsoft, Apple have understood very well that such a restriction can only be tolerated if applied to apps for tablets. De
sktop PCs are a completely different ecosystem and need as much flexibility as possible when it comes to installing software.
0
Pasquale
10/4/2014 6:17:09 AM
Mike Margerum wrote:

> Personally, i'd love to see a locked down windows 10 laptop running
> on Intel that only runs locked down metro apps and office.  Be great
> for business use.

Or you could just buy a ChromeBook.  ;-)

-- 
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
0
Nick
10/4/2014 7:54:05 PM
> Unsurprisingly, most Windows development is in .NET these days.  Most
> places I go and people I talk to (outside of Delphi shops and forums)
> assume if you are a Windows developer that you're using .NET and VS.

Most of the paid for desktop software I use is anything but.
Native Visual C++ mostly. Enterprise Apps might be another case
but since it is not my market I do not care
0
Konstantine
10/4/2014 9:00:19 PM
"Konstantine Poukhov" wrote on Sat, 4 Oct 2014 14:00:19 -0700:

>> Unsurprisingly, most Windows development is in .NET these days.  Most
>> places I go and people I talk to (outside of Delphi shops and forums)
>> assume if you are a Windows developer that you're using .NET and VS.
> 
> Most of the paid for desktop software I use is anything but.
> Native Visual C++ mostly. Enterprise Apps might be another case
> but since it is not my market I do not care

You may not care but it's reality.  It's not my market either.

Once a year I make it a point to attend Windows developer conferences
to at least make sure I know where things are going and what new stuff
is happening in Windows development.  It is easily 90% .NET.  Speakers
joke that they "now know a guy who uses Delphi" after I talk with
them.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
0
Brandon
10/4/2014 9:09:46 PM
> {quote:title=Luigi Sandon wrote:}{quote}
> > OTOH, there are a lot of XP and older machines still out there in 
> > various production environments.
> 
> Just you're going to support them if needed with older development tools. There's no need to support it in newer ones, at the cost of not be able to use any new OS feature introduced in the past thirteen years. Otherwise it just look like an excuse to avoid to update your products.
> 
> After all, when Delphi 2 was released, if you needed to support Win 3.x application you had to use Delphi 1 - and it made sense.
> 
> But as said, Delphi is often even worse, because it contains a lot of Windows NT/9.x era code never updated. Supporting some taskbar feature won't make it a "modern" development tool if under the hood it is not.
> 
> Unsupported OS are already vulnerable, thereby using older unsupported tools is not an issue, if you need to use them you need to fully protect them outside the system itself.

I think this is not a question of upgrading your products. Here we are talking about a completely different way of selling your software. The problem with WinRT is that the only way you can distribute your programs is through the MS App Store. How can you develop and sell customized apps to your customers if all of your software must first be uploaded to the Store and approved by Microsoft?
0
Pasquale
10/5/2014 1:01:01 AM
On 10/4/14 3:54 PM, Nick Hodges wrote:
> Mike Margerum wrote:
>
>> Personally, i'd love to see a locked down windows 10 laptop running
>> on Intel that only runs locked down metro apps and office.  Be great
>> for business use.
>
> Or you could just buy a ChromeBook.  ;-)
>

I own one :D

Not having the full office stack is problematic though.

Chromebooks work very nicely for companies who are using Google apps for 
business which I have also setup at the company. I was so impressed with 
Google during this migration from another ISP.  Google called me to help 
and the person actually knew stuff.  I also looked at m$ office 365 but 
went cross eyed with their 12 different pricing models and complete lack 
of assistance.  Google has two prices both cheaper than anything m$ 
offers.

If I was starting the infrastructure for this company today, i'd build 
everything in google cloud, google apps for business, and pure web 
technologies.

All that said, there really is no suitable replacement for office out 
there.  The advanced users are always going to need the full office 
package for things like pivot tables and other analytics.
0
Mike
10/5/2014 1:01:01 AM
Nick,

| We are a cloud company, so we do everything in the cloud.

Wow!  I never thought I would ever "hear" you say anything like that!!!


How times change!  ;-)  


-- 

   Q 

1.19.1.372  (Q's Broken Toolbar.)
0
Quentin
10/5/2014 1:01:01 AM
Quentin Correll wrote:

> Wow!  I never thought I would ever "hear" you say anything like
> that!!!

Well, we sell cloud services, so we'd be hypocritical if we didn't.  ;-)

-- 
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
0
Nick
10/5/2014 1:01:01 AM
Nick,

| |  <chuckle>  I was just remembering "the old days."  ;-)  
| 
| Yeah, when everything was in the cloud and everyone used green
| screens.  ;-)

We've come a long way, Baby!  <g>  


-- 

   Q 

1.19.1.372  (Q's Broken Toolbar.)
0
Quentin
10/5/2014 1:01:01 AM
> {quote:title=Enquiring Mind wrote:}{quote}
> I too would like Delphi to provide support for Windows Store apps. But the last time I raised this question in these newsgroups someone drew my attention to a commercial-technical problem preventing Embarcadero providing this support. See:
> 
> http://www.itwriting.com/blog/6347-third-party-compilers-locked-out-of-windows-runtime-development.html/comment-page-1
> 
> EM
Back in 2005-2007 Delphi apps could run on top of .Net runtime. I don't know technical details of that .Net saga, but I think, Embarcadero can easily add support for creating ModernUI apps on top of .Net 4.5 if there will be any real demand.
0
Mikola
10/5/2014 10:29:41 AM
> {quote:title=Luigi Sandon wrote:}{quote}
> > OTOH, there are a lot of XP and older machines still out there in 
> > various production environments.
> 
> Just you're going to support them if needed with older development tools. There's no need to support it in newer ones, at the cost of not be able to use any new OS feature introduced in the past thirteen years. Otherwise it just look like an excuse to avoid to update your products.
> 
> After all, when Delphi 2 was released, if you needed to support Win 3.x application you had to use Delphi 1 - and it made sense.
> 
> But as said, Delphi is often even worse, because it contains a lot of Windows NT/9.x era code never updated. Supporting some taskbar feature won't make it a "modern" development tool if under the hood it is not.
> 
> Unsupported OS are already vulnerable, thereby using older unsupported tools is not an issue, if you need to use them you need to fully protect them outside the system itself.

I think this is not a question of upgrading your products. Here we are talking about a completely different way of selling your software. The problem with WinRT is that the only way you can distribute your programs is through the MS App Store. How can you develop and sell customized apps for your customers if all of your software must first be uploaded to the Store and approved by Microsoft?
0
Pasquale
10/5/2014 10:48:58 AM
Am 05.10.2014 13:47, schrieb Mike Margerum:
> On 10/4/14 3:54 PM, Nick Hodges wrote:
>> Mike Margerum wrote:
>>
>>> Personally, i'd love to see a locked down windows 10 laptop running
>>> on Intel that only runs locked down metro apps and office.  Be great
>>> for business use.
>>
>> Or you could just buy a ChromeBook.  ;-)
>>
> 
> I own one :D
> 
> Not having the full office stack is problematic though.
> 
> Chromebooks work very nicely for companies who are using Google apps for 
> business which I have also setup at the company. I was so impressed with 
> Google during this migration from another ISP.  Google called me to help 
> and the person actually knew stuff.  I also looked at m$ office 365 but 
> went cross eyed with their 12 different pricing models and complete lack 
> of assistance.  Google has two prices both cheaper than anything m$ 
> offers.
> 
> If I was starting the infrastructure for this company today, i'd build 
> everything in google cloud, google apps for business, and pure web 
> technologies.
> 
> All that said, there really is no suitable replacement for office out 
> there.  The advanced users are always going to need the full office 
> package for things like pivot tables and other analytics.
> 

Hello,

did you look at Softmaker Office already?
They currently have the next version of their ANdroid package in an open
beta and claim it will finally have the full desktop fuctionality.

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
10/5/2014 12:30:06 PM
"Graeme Geldenhuys" wrote on Sat, 4 Oct 2014 15:39:15 -0700:

> eg #3: Same as two above, but no limit on number of favourites. Why oh
> why did Microsoft think 5 items is the max anybody would ever need.


I suggest that yours (and mine) are a-typical use cases.  (In this
specific case -- I *never* use the recent/favorite sections of file
dialogs.  I mean I can't think of EVER having used them.)

Also, Microsoft actually has data on these things and looks at it.
(Well, maybe except for the Synofsky Abboration (Windows 8) where user
feedback was not considered.) Not only do they have well-funded
usability testing where they, uh, test things, they have millions of
pieces of data showing how people use their OS.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
0
Brandon
10/5/2014 12:33:47 PM
Mike Margerum wrote:

> If I was starting the infrastructure for this company today, i'd
> build everything in google cloud, google apps for business, and pure
> web technologies.

That's what we do here at Veeva.  We are a cloud company, so we do
everything in the cloud.  Google Apps is our "Office".  It works
really, really well.

-- 
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
0
Nick
10/5/2014 1:25:20 PM
Hello,

> {quote:title=Mikola Petrivskiy wrote:}{quote}
> Back in 2005-2007 Delphi apps could run on top of .Net runtime. I don't know technical details of that .Net saga, but I think, Embarcadero can easily add support for creating ModernUI apps on top of .Net 4.5 if there will be any real demand.

I suppose that would ruin the entire "Native Code" marketing campaign...

--
Moritz

"Hey, it compiles! Ship it!"
0
Moritz
10/5/2014 4:53:46 PM
Nick,

| |  Wow!  I never thought I would ever "hear" you say anything like
| |  that!!!
| 
| Well, we sell cloud services, so we'd be hypocritical if we didn't.
| ;-)

<chuckle>  I was just remembering "the old days."  ;-)  


-- 

   Q 

1.19.1.372  (Q's Broken Toolbar.)
0
Quentin
10/5/2014 9:24:36 PM
Quentin Correll wrote:

> <chuckle>  I was just remembering "the old days."  ;-)  

Yeah, when everything was in the cloud and everyone used green screens.
;-)

-- 
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
0
Nick
10/5/2014 9:27:30 PM
> is happening in Windows development.  It is easily 90% .NET.  Speakers
> joke that they "now know a guy who uses Delphi" after I talk with
> them.

I really do not care. My product is going just fine being native.
Users actually do appreciate single small portable exe.
Oh and wake me up when they release X-Plane flight simulator in .NET
0
Konstantine
10/6/2014 1:01:01 AM
On 10/5/14 11:46 PM, Konstantine Poukhov wrote:
>> is happening in Windows development.  It is easily 90% .NET.  Speakers
>> joke that they "now know a guy who uses Delphi" after I talk with
>> them.
>
> I really do not care. My product is going just fine being native.
> Users actually do appreciate single small portable exe.
> Oh and wake me up when they release X-Plane flight simulator in .NET
>

m$ is finally getting it now that it's probably too late.  You will be 
able to compile phone apps with no runtime requirement.  I assume this 
will land on the desktop at some point too.   No one wants to endure the 
pain of deploying a .net desktop app right now.

They have done everything they possibly could up till now to discourage 
native windows desktop development.   A lot of companies built web apps 
instead that run well on lots of other platforms besides windows.   So, 
by not giving developers a viable desktop option, they have accelerated 
their death spiral.

Also, you will also be able to use a "cloud optimized" .net runtime 
(10MB) that gets baked into your web app so no need for any runtime on 
the server.  I still think open source offerings like node and go will 
eat their lunch on the web server front too eventually.
0
Mike
10/6/2014 1:01:01 AM
> Why would you do that?  You can get comparable Windows hardware for
> the same price and run the same stuff a ChromeBook can run, plus you
> can run actual real software, too, unlike a Chromebook.
>

I consider the win32 layer a reason not to purchase a machine at this 
point.  It's one giant security quagmire.  We do use it in the back 
office, but I would gladly swap it out for a locked down chromebook or 
some intel based variant of windows RT without the win32 layer for 
people outside the office.  The problem is I have a large Delphi VCL app 
that needs to be ported first.


I really thought apple would release an iOS variant that ran as an 11" 
laptop with controls optimized for a trackpad.    Too bad because I 
think it would be a huge hit with enterprises.

It's amazing how liberating a truly secure platform can be.  We have 
dozens of iOS devices and I never deal with support for them.  They just 
work.  They don't get infected.  Most important, they are intuitive and 
easy to use.
0
Mike
10/6/2014 1:01:01 AM
> That's what we do here at Veeva.  We are a cloud company, so we do
> everything in the cloud.  Google Apps is our "Office".  It works
> really, really well.
>
I definitely have to spend more time reading up on google docs.  I'm 
pretty sure you can even automate google docs via a REST API.  Powerful 
stuff

Google takes a lot of grief, but they have given a lot of great stuff 
back to the developer community.  Go, angular, material design, 
visualization toolkit, this list goes on and on.
0
Mike
10/6/2014 11:00:32 AM
Reply:

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