Will jobs for Delphi mobile devs be growing soon - with higher pay? [Edit]

I was looking through Dice for Delphi jobs.  There seems to be the same bunch of job shops advertising for the same bunch of D6-era maintenance jobs, mostly on the East coast and the "rust belt".

However, there's a cornucopia of jobs for "mobile developer".  They all seem to be for "senior" positions with "at least three years of experience building apps" for either iOS or Android.  Are there enough developers in America with three years of experience in either iOS or Android platforms who did anything besides build games?  And if they DID have that much experience, then why are they looking for jobs rather than subcontracting their own services at far higher rates?

(This reminds me of job reqs I saw right after the first iOS SDK was released looking for devs with "at least three years hands-on experience with iOS development".  I'd suspect if you didn't work at Apple, you'd probably never get a reply for those postings.)

Many of these job postings also fail to clearly discriminate between "web apps" and "mobile apps" because there are many that want both programming experience with either XCode or Android SDK, as well as "HTML5, CSS3, Javascript, …" and other typical web-only technologies.

Do mobile apps require all of that HTML5/CSS/JS crap, or are these just more examples of idiot HR people writing up nonsense job reqs?

(You know … things like "3 years demonstrable experience using iOS 7" stuff….)

Also, assuming there's indeed a viable path to use the same code base for both iOS and Android apps, will we be seeing jobs that specify Delphi at 1.5x the salary levels of those other jobs, by virtue of replacing two devs with one?
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David
9/26/2013 11:00:48 AM
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<David Schwartz> wrote in message news:617266@forums.embarcadero.com...
> Also, assuming there's indeed a viable path to use the same code base for 
> both iOS and Android apps, will we be seeing jobs that specify Delphi at 
> 1.5x the salary levels of those other jobs, by virtue of replacing two 
> devs with one?

Probably only if they can also type independently ambidextrously with each 
hand, have 'wandering eye' with split focal vision, can use both the left 
and right sides of their brain independently-simultaneously, and thus can 
produce the total output of two people at once, using two different 
computers.
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david
9/26/2013 1:52:17 PM
Hello David,

> {quote:title=David Schwartz wrote:}{quote}
>
> However, there's a cornucopia of jobs for "mobile developer".  They all seem to be for "senior" positions with "at least three years of experience building apps" for either iOS or Android.  Are there enough developers in America with three years of experience in either iOS or Android platforms who did anything besides build games?  And if they DID have that much experience, then why are they looking for jobs rather than subcontracting their own services at far higher rates?

So the rates are not very good, right?

I've seen a similar trend in my country. Confusing descriptions, ridiculously low wages, unrealistic requirements... my guess is this are new companies or, more exactly, departments that are just starting to demand programmers and that not even know very well what they need us for.

The most infuriating thing is the contrast between requiring a "bleeding edge" speciality and what they're offering :-)

salu2,

   Nico
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Nico
9/26/2013 3:39:27 PM
> {quote:title=Nico Aragon wrote:}{quote}
> Hello David,
> 
> 
> So the rates are not very good, right?
> 
> I've seen a similar trend in my country. Confusing descriptions, ridiculously low wages, unrealistic requirements... my guess is this are new companies or, more exactly, departments that are just starting to demand programmers and that not even know very well what they need us for.
> 
> The most infuriating thing is the contrast between requiring a "bleeding edge" speciality and what they're offering :-)
> 
> salu2,
> 
>    Nico

Very few rates are published.  Most ads say, "DOE".


I have learned that if the contact person has a name suggesting they're from India or thereabouts, they usually say the client is only looking to pay in the $20-$25 range per hour.  These folks appear to have set up shop here in America to bring their friends here from overseas as H1-B candidates, and to "assist" other H1-B candidates who may have lost their jobs and need to arrange for a new job (within 30 days) so they don't have to go back home.

While I have no firm evidence of this, I have talked with such people from time to time about the same positions that other (American) job shops are offering $50-$75/hr, so there's really no other explanation why they insist "their client" won't pay more than $20/hr.

-David
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David
9/26/2013 6:15:46 PM
> I have learned that if the contact person has a name suggesting they're from India or thereabouts, they usually say the client is only looking to pay in the $20-$25 range per hour.  These folks appear to have set up shop here in America to bring their friends here from overseas as H1-B candidates, and to "assist" other H1-B candidates who may have lost their jobs and need to arrange for a new job (within 30 days) so they don't have to go back home.
>
> While I have no firm evidence of this, I have talked with such people from time to time about the same positions that other (American) job shops are offering $50-$75/hr, so there's really no other explanation why they insist "their client" won't pay more than $20/hr.
>
> -David
>

Meanwhile our lovely government is busy trying to add more "guest" 
worker visas to this immigration bill.
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Mike
9/26/2013 7:37:23 PM
> {quote:title=David Schwartz wrote:}{quote}
> Also, assuming there's indeed a viable path to use the same code base for both iOS and Android apps, will we be seeing jobs that specify Delphi at 1.5x the salary levels of those other jobs, by virtue of replacing two devs with one?

I highly doubt that.

Having seen multiple technologies at play in my career.
Technology typically does not matter when it comes to salary, it does not matter when it comes to contracting bill rates either.
If technology X saves you more money that technology Y, it's not going to impact salary at all.   
If they can get more with less, they will take it....  It just improves the bottom line.
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Robert
9/26/2013 8:06:29 PM
> {quote:title=Mike Margerum wrote:}{quote}
 
> Meanwhile our lovely government is busy trying to add more "guest" 
> worker visas to this immigration bill.

I object as well! You, native Americans have suffered so much and this seems to never end. Do people still judge you by the color of your red skin?
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Johnson
9/26/2013 9:19:25 PM
> I object as well! You, native Americans have suffered so much and
> this seems to never end. Do people still judge you by the color of
> your red skin?

ROFL
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Konstantine
9/26/2013 10:16:23 PM
> {quote:title=David Schwartz wrote:}{quote}

> 
> While I have no firm evidence of this, I have talked with such people from time to time about the same positions that other (American) job shops are offering $50-$75/hr, so there's really no other explanation why they insist "their client" won't pay more than $20/hr.

There have been articles written about Indian-owned American IT shops that have been found to only be employing H1-B workers. On the other end, they've discovered companies in India that have been getting people H1-B jobs such that the people come to America, learn how successful American IT companies operate, then go back to India.. and all end up at the same Indian company afterwards. It's one part outsourcing training, another part industrial espionage. 

The H1-B program is being wildly abused.
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Joseph
9/27/2013 12:40:42 AM
On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 12:37:23 -0700, Mike Margerum <mike@margerum.com>
wrote:

>Meanwhile our lovely government is busy trying to add more "guest" 
>worker visas to this immigration bill.

Yeah.  The idea of guest tech workers in today's economy makes no
sense at all.  They should be issuing *ZERO* H1-B visas.
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Loren
9/27/2013 4:16:21 AM
> {quote:title=Mike Margerum wrote:}{quote}
> 
> Meanwhile our lovely government is busy trying to add more "guest" 
> worker visas to this immigration bill.

It's not "our lovely government".  It's really a combination of our current (broken) immigration laws combined with tax polices developed in the 80's and90's that create incentives for large employers to move jobs off-shore rather than hiring and re-training some of the million or so unemployed and underemployed computer and engineering workers over 45 who are US Citizens.

As anybody can see happening in today's political climate here in America, our elected officials are quite busy working for the special interests who spent the most money on their campaigns and getting them elected, and virtually no time or effort on the people who voted for them.

Personally, I'd like to see two things: (1) eliminate H1-B immigration quotas entirely; and (2) tie every H1-B to the permanent hiring of two US citizens over 45.

I saw something on one of the C-span channels where representatives from Microsoft, HP, and a few other large tech employers were discussing the alleged "shortage" of what they call "qualified workers".  Their proposed solution is to lift the H1-B immigration quotas.  No time at all was spent discussing retraining unemployed people who are currently out-of-work.  There seemed to be an underlying implication in their discussions that, "everybody who really wants to work for companies like us already has a 
job doing that."  Thus, their focus is on hiring new college grads and dealing with the fact that when foreign students complete graduate school here in America, they're required to return home for two years.  They can hire people who studied in other countries and bring them to America under the H1-B program easily; but they have to wait two years to bring back these grads.  So they hire them and put them to work in facilities they've set up in India, Singapore, China, and elsewhere to utilize these folk
s while waiting for their time to pass.

Then they say it costs $50,000 on average to prosecute every H1-B visa -- that's excluding salary and relocation expenses that often involve multiple visas for spouses and children.

I sat there wondering … for all of us old farts, who can't get job interviews because our skills "aren't current", how many of us could $50,000 end up retraining to make us "qualified" to work for these folks?  A semester of classes at a local community college or university would make us at least as "qualified" as new college grads, and it probably wouldn't cost more than a few thousand bucks, plus maybe a stipend for room and board.

We need to fix our immigration and tax laws so the incentives to hire US CITIZENS is more economical -- even if some retraining is required -- than going off-shore. But our politicians are not listening to us.  They're listening to Microsoft, HP, Dell, Oracle, and the people who hire us and who are making tons of profits by leveraging existing immigration and tax laws.  (They've figured out how to make them work for them, and they seriously do NOT want these laws changed!)

-David
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David
9/27/2013 4:29:16 AM
> {quote:title=Loren Pechtel wrote:}{quote}
> On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 12:37:23 -0700, Mike Margerum <mike@margerum.com>
> wrote:
> 
> >Meanwhile our lovely government is busy trying to add more "guest" 
> >worker visas to this immigration bill.
> 
> Yeah.  The idea of guest tech workers in today's economy makes no
> sense at all.  They should be issuing *ZERO* H1-B visas.

I believe the notion of "guest" workers is intended to apply to laborers who have no college or post-graduate degrees.

US Immigration laws make it virtually impossible to sponsor anybody under H1-B laws unless the candidate has a graduate degree and can be shown to have unique skills that cannot be found in other applicants.

Now, that's not to say somebody didn't tweak this proposed law and make these "guest" worker visas somehow apply to high-tech workers as well. Until the law is actually passed (which looks like a long-shot any time soon), we'll never know.

-David
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David
9/27/2013 4:36:14 AM
"Pechtel" - I did not know of that Indian tribe and I used to read Karl May a lot. Anyways, I sympathize with you, what was done to your ancestors was cruel!
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Johnson
9/27/2013 9:58:09 AM
> {quote:title=Joseph Mitzen wrote:}{quote}

> The H1-B program is being wildly abused.

Of course it is. Mainly by the US laws firms.
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Johnson
9/27/2013 10:05:55 AM
>
> I object as well! You, native Americans have suffered so much and this seems to never end. Do people still judge you by the color of your red skin?
>
Oh please.  Apparently you don't know what "Guest" worker means.  They 
aren't necessarily trying to become citizens.  They are sent home, fully 
trained, in 4-7 years to compete against u.s. citizens.  I'd actually 
prefer they stay here if we are going to train them.  This program is 
nothing more than  a way for u.s. corps to import slave labor.

I guess you are implying I have a xenophobic agenda here.   /shrug

My grandmother is a full blooded lumbee indian.  Does that somehow give 
me more credibility?

Besides, how do you know Native Americans were the original Americans? 
Maybe they displaced some other group when they came over from Asia.
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Mike
9/27/2013 1:08:25 PM
So you compete with foreigners, I am really sorry for you. Wait, I compete with the whole world!! Whose gonna be sorry for me?
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Johnson
9/27/2013 3:28:21 PM
On 9/27/13 11:28 AM, Johnson Whofarts wrote:
> So you compete with foreigners, I am really sorry for you. Wait, I compete with the whole world!! Whose gonna be sorry for me?
>

I don't mind competing with foreigners in their country of origin.

I mind having them flown here to be trained by their American 
counterpart only to have the American counterpart fired a few 
months/years down the road.  I've seen this happen over and over again 
to friends of mine.
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Mike
9/27/2013 4:39:43 PM
And I have friends Americans who moved to Europe and work there. Grow up, that's world we live in now! And if someone is really good at what they do, they won't be fired and replaced by a trained beginner. Friends of mine own an IT shop in the US. For three years they could not find a COMPETENT Linux cluster administrator. They hired and fired 5 Americans and are looking for someone from abroad now.
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Johnson
9/27/2013 8:37:02 PM
Mike Margerum wrote:

> Oh please.  Apparently you don't know what "Guest" worker means.
> They aren't necessarily trying to become citizens.  They are sent
> home, fully trained, in 4-7 years to compete against u.s. citizens.
> I'd actually prefer they stay here if we are going to train them.
> This program is nothing more than  a way for u.s. corps to import
> slave labor.

I don't always compete with Americans for jobs, but when I do, I prefer
to do it remotely and at a much better rate than slave wages.

-- 
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
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Bruce
9/27/2013 10:52:33 PM
Bruce McGee wrote:

> 
> I don't always compete with Americans for jobs, but when I do, I
> prefer to do it remotely and at a much better rate than slave wages.

As someone who hopes to reap a return on my non-insignificant
"investment" in Social Security, I'm 100% in favor of anyone coming
here from anywhere as long as they want to work and pay FICA taxes and
not go on welfare.

It seems to me a rather foolish thing to deny people who want to work
here, particularly people who would earn high wages.

-- 
Nick
Delphi Programming is fun.
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Nick
9/28/2013 2:42:07 PM
Nick Hodges wrote:

> Bruce McGee wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I don't always compete with Americans for jobs, but when I do, I
> > prefer to do it remotely and at a much better rate than slave wages.
> 
> As someone who hopes to reap a return on my non-insignificant
> "investment" in Social Security, I'm 100% in favor of anyone coming
> here from anywhere as long as they want to work and pay FICA taxes and
> not go on welfare.

I was talking more about working remotely under contract.


> It seems to me a rather foolish thing to deny people who want to work
> here, particularly people who would earn high wages.

Agreed.

-- 
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
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Bruce
9/28/2013 4:45:56 PM
On 9/27/13 4:37 PM, Johnson Whofarts wrote:
> Grow up,
>

That's pretty rich given your psuedonym
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Mike
9/28/2013 6:45:59 PM
On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 21:29:16 -0700, David Schwartz <> wrote:

>Personally, I'd like to see two things: (1) eliminate H1-B immigration quotas entirely; and (2) tie every H1-B to the permanent hiring of two US citizens over 45.

While I would get rid of the quota I would replace it with a different
system:  You simply can't get a H1-B for a position where the
unemployment/underemployment rate is over say 4%.  (Which would
completely preclude them in today's climate.)

>I saw something on one of the C-span channels where representatives from Microsoft, HP, and a few other large tech employers were discussing the alleged "shortage" of what they call "qualified workers".  Their proposed solution is to lift the H1-B immigration quotas.  No time at all was spent discussing retraining unemployed people who are currently out-of-work.

I don't think retraining is even needed.  It's not that we can't do
the job now (or at least could perfectly well train ourselves to do
the job), it's that they want people they can underpay and overwork.
45 year olds aren't going to do 80 hour weeks.
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Loren
9/28/2013 7:08:56 PM
> {quote:title=Mike Margerum wrote:}{quote}

> That's pretty rich given your psuedonym

I am also short, old and ugly. More reasons not to read my posts.
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Johnson
9/28/2013 7:44:26 PM
Mike Margerum wrote:

> That's pretty rich given your psuedonym

Hehe.  Or that he even *has* a pseudonym.  

-- 
Nick
Delphi Programming is fun.
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Nick
9/28/2013 8:29:04 PM
> {quote:title=David Schwartz wrote:}{quote}
> I was looking through Dice for Delphi jobs.  



Those are all good questions Dave. 

Lets address the issue of the SmartPhone and Pads. There are two types of contracts. One in which the company hiring you has an in house development team and they want you to develop an app and return the source code and project in a predefined development environment.  The in-house team will then re-compile the app and up load it in their AppStore or GooglePlay account. The amount you get paid for this is often a negotiated flat fee. In this cause you will not get any work with Delphi because there are n
o companies that I know of using Delphi in-house like this. In this case you would need to program mainly Java for Android or use the Apple tools which I am not familiar with. 

The second type of contract is for companies that don't want to see the guts of the app. They want you to do everything including get the app uploaded into the AppStore or GooglePlay. In this case you can find work using Delphi. Again the contract work like this is usually a flat fee so it helps to have dozens of app templates to start from allowing you to change the skin add a new company logo a few new features and your are done quickly. In this case it really helps to be proactive and go look for work.
 A lot of companies want apps but don't know where to go.  


The issue of web apps is changing. The big deal there is the Google Chrome OS which requires you to write code in HTML5 and Java. This is very difficult if this is not your specialty. This often requires the use of more than one IDE and is not simple. 
 

Let me give you two pointer. 

1) If you want to get paid creating apps with Delphi you should be able to offer a complete turn around service for the customer. This means you do everything required to get the app in the app store. 

2) The most successful app developers I know have teamed up with a graphics artist. The art work in an app is a premium service people will pay for. If you have anyone in your life who does graphics art work try to work out an arrangement where you can include a portfolio of art work with your sales pitch and pay them to do the art work if you get hired. Free apps have become a commodity so the art you can add to an app becomes a big selling point.  


When you get an app uploaded post a link and good luck.
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Patrick
9/29/2013 2:29:50 AM
> As someone who hopes to reap a return on my non-insignificant
> "investment" in Social Security, I'm 100% in favor of anyone coming
> here from anywhere as long as they want to work and pay FICA taxes and
> not go on welfare.

If it was up to me I'd allow free immigration on one condition.
No welfare until one can present valid Tax returns for
however many years it'll make sense. That is aside of being
heinous criminal or something in that line.
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Konstantine
9/29/2013 4:16:09 AM
"Nick Hodges" <nickhodges@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:617899@forums.embarcadero.com...
>
> It seems to me a rather foolish thing to deny people who want to work
> here, particularly people who would earn high wages.


It's really fascinating to see how many people are in favour of closing or 
at least tightening borders on the basis of "protecting" jobs - the idea 
that immigrants "steal" jobs that belong to others already here.

Our countries (the U.S. and Canada) were built on *massive* immigration 
throughout the 19th and 20th centuries, and despite such massive 
immigration, there was never a widespread shortage of jobs at any point *as 
a result of the immigration* (there have of course been times of higher 
unemployment due to other issues such as droughts, market crashes, war, 
etc).

In fact, historically, as fast as our countries have been able to take in 
immigrants from practically anywhere, it has resulted in more opportunity, 
more jobs, for *everyone*.

The only legitimate issue is where immigrants can come in and immediately 
claim government benefits that have the effect of demotivating their efforts 
to take whatever work is available at low wages and *move up from there* as 
used to be the historical norm. It was never the case that very many such 
immigrants - or anyone else - would perpetually spend their entire lives in 
poverty-level jobs, but rather use those to get a start, to learn the 
language and customs, and better themselves and their economic prospects and 
outcomes, very often starting their own businesses that grew to employ 
others, immigrants and others alike.

Everywhere there is high unemployment, look for the corresponding high 
minimum wages and other barriers to taking on low-level jobs that greatly 
affects immigrants (as well as students, and others looking only for 
part-time supplemetary employment). In such places it is common to see high 
numbers of unemnployed collecting benefits at the same time you can find 
there are 1000s of entry-level jobs going unfilled because no-one is 
motivated to take them.

As a result, another phenonomen created is the high rate of *illegal* 
immigrants, precisely because they are the ones that *are* willing to take 
those really low-level jobs "under-the-table", and in many cases, those 
people are still able to send some of the money they earn back to their 
families not living here - and it is more than they could provide them 
staying and trying to find work in the countries they come from. But in this 
case, these immigrants, being illegal, have no prospect of ever bettering 
themselves - they would forever be stuck in these low-rate jobs.

Open up immigration freely, no limits on what employment they can take 
including no enforced minimum wage, barring only those that can be 
identified as criminals according to our own laws, or carrying transmittable 
disease, but at the same time, those immigrants must not be eligible for any 
government benefits unless and until they become full citizens after some 
reasonable period (3 to 5 years). As is the historical norm, such immigrants 
would naturally go to settle, initially, in whatever areas had jobs they 
could fill, be productive, and thereby build up the economy in those areas 
as they built themselves up. "Illegal" immigration would become essentially 
non-existent (but for the few criminals that might slip through), and 
unemployment rates would drop dramatically.

-- 
Wayne Niddery (TeamB)
"You know what they call alternative medicine that has been proven to work? 
Medicine." - Tim Minchin
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Wayne
9/29/2013 4:49:16 PM
Wayne Niddery wrote:

> In fact, historically, as fast as our countries have been able to
> take in immigrants from practically anywhere, it has resulted in more
> opportunity, more jobs, for everyone.

Canada is a great example of that.  So much so that Microsoft set up an
office in Vancouver to hire all the people that they wanted to hire in
the US but can't because they can't get the people into the US.

That's a lot of taxes and profits for Canadian companies that the US
didn't get because we won't let people come here and work, create
profits, and pay taxes.



-- 
Nick
Delphi Programming is fun.
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Nick
9/29/2013 4:55:03 PM
> {quote:title=Wayne Niddery wrote:}{quote}
> 
> The only legitimate issue is where immigrants can come in and immediately 
> claim government benefits that have the effect of demotivating their efforts 
> to take whatever work is available at low wages and move up from there as 
> used to be the historical norm. It was never the case that very many such 
> immigrants - or anyone else - would perpetually spend their entire lives in 
> poverty-level jobs, but rather use those to get a start, to learn the 
> language and customs, and better themselves and their economic prospects and 
> outcomes, very often starting their own businesses that grew to employ 
> others, immigrants and others alike.
> 
> Everywhere there is high unemployment, look for the corresponding high 
> minimum wages and other barriers to taking on low-level jobs that greatly 
> affects immigrants (as well as students, and others looking only for 
> part-time supplemetary employment). In such places it is common to see high 
> numbers of unemnployed collecting benefits at the same time you can find 
> there are 1000s of entry-level jobs going unfilled because no-one is 
> motivated to take them.
> 
> As a result, another phenonomen created is the high rate of illegal 
> immigrants, precisely because they are the ones that are willing to take 
> those really low-level jobs "under-the-table", and in many cases, those 
> people are still able to send some of the money they earn back to their 
> families not living here - and it is more than they could provide them 
> staying and trying to find work in the countries they come from. But in this 
> case, these immigrants, being illegal, have no prospect of ever bettering 
> themselves - they would forever be stuck in these low-rate jobs.
> 
> -- 
> Wayne Niddery (TeamB)


It amazes me what kind of crap otherwise smart and supposedly "educated" people come up with out of thin air when they object to immigration laws and policies as they believe them to be. Never mind that they're totally off-base. And to those of us who know the laws, they sound like total idiots.

As an American citizen who went through the effort to sponsor a foreigner to come to America, I have had a very direct exposure to the REAL immigration laws. Significantly more so than what most folks who make up this kind of meaningless tripe obviously have.

There is one set of immigration laws that apply to foreigners coming here when they're sponsored by someone -- that is, they're no different if the sponsor is a person or a corporation.  There may be slightly different laws when the foreigners come here under asylum; I just don't know who their official "sponsor" is in such cases. I'm assuming it's someone other than the government, but I could be wrong. (I heard once they end up being sponsored by human rights organizations and churches.  Either way, a "
sponsor" is a "sponsor" and that conveys certain legal rights and obligations to them as sponsors of a foreigner.)

The point here is simple, and read this carefully: anyone (person or corporation) who acts as a "sponsor" for a foreigner to immigrate into America must enter into an agreement with We The People (a.k.a. the US Government) to REIMBURSE We The People for benefits taken from any and all social benefit programs, other than emergency medical care provided to children in need of it in order to save their life, for a period of TEN (10) YEARS from the date that person enters USA. There are also penalties attache
d to those reimbursement payments.

Also, it is ILLEGAL for ANY non-citizen here on American soil under the color of any immigration visa to apply for, request, accept, consume, or otherwise access ANY SOCIAL BENEFIT PROGRAM INTENDED TO BENEFIT US CITIZENS (again, with certain specific exemptions intended to save lives of minors).  

And it is a FEDERAL OFFENSE PUNISHABLE BY IMPRISONMENT for any FEDERAL EMPLOYEE to accept, process, approve, disburse, or encourage the disbursement of any kind of monies or benefits intended for US Citizens to any non-citizen here in America who they believe or have reason to believe may not be entitled to receive such benefits.

Now … tell me again how all of these non-citizens are coming here and bleeding our social benefit programs dry without either their sponsors or the government employees responsible for those expenses being affected.  

The other programs cited in this imaginary missive -- things like unemployment, social security, medicare, etc. -- require someone to have actually paid into the system in order to gain benefits.  I find it incredulous how many people suggest how easy it is for non-citizens with no immigration paperwork, no formal identification, no sponsor, and no visa, to walk into any government agency and walk away with monies that even US Citizens have a challenge getting!

Welfare, food stamps, medicaid … they fall under the responsibility of the immigrant's SPONSOR to REIMBURSE WE THE PEOPLE if said immigrants take them, and the government workers who approved them getting these benefits WOULD GO TO PRISON.

If this sort of fraud is as wide-spread as people love to allege, there would be nobody working at any of the government jobs that process these benefits because THEY'D ALL BE IN PRISON!

Furthermore, while immigrants who are here LEGALLY -- with a visa, sponsor, and work permit -- are allowed to work, pay taxes, pay FICA, FUTA, and social security, they are FORBIDDEN FROM FILING BENEFITS AGAINST THESE PROGRAMS UNTIL THEY ARE US CITIZENS!

The fact that so many so-called "illegal immigrants" are working at regular jobs with false paperwork, they are being paid wages and having their regular withholdings taken out by their employer.  Those monies are not accumulating in THEIR benefit, but in the "benefit" of the account holder of the social security number they provided to their employer.  In fact, millions of these people are working under the guise of some 35,000 invalid social security numbers.

Does anybody seriously believe that the IRS doesn't know every single one of these 35,000 SSNs?  It would be a very simple matter for the IRS to round up millions of illegally employed foreigners simply by tracking these employer-mandated withholdings!  Why don't they do that?

Maybe it's because they know that none of these particular employees will ever file a tax return requesting a refund. They'll never file for unemployment.  They'll never file for social security. They'll never file for medicare or medicaid.  Why?  Because it's ILLEGAL!  Basically, this is "free money" given to the US Treasury.  And the last numbers I saw indicate that the Treasury takes in far more revenues this way than it costs for the tiny fraction of benefits that are paid out to non-citizens in fraud
ulent benefit claims.

I met a guy a while back who went on and on about his "first-hand knowledge" of dozens of people who'd come here from Mexico and were defrauding the system.  I asked him, "how many did you report to the FBI?"  He gave me a blank stare -- as if I seriously expected him to report these lawbreaking moochers to the feds!  WTF?  

If you have first-hand knowledge of any foreigner getting any benefits restricted under the law for use exclusively by US Citizens, you have a legal and moral obligation to report them to the FBI, along with the agencies they got the benefits through, so that appropriate legal action can be taken.

If instead you just continue to complain about these people scamming the system without lifting a finger to do anything about it, then you're as much of the problem as they are for ignoring multiple State and Federal laws that are being broken.  That actually makes you an accomplice in the eyes of many of these Federal laws.

On the other hand, if you're simply regurgitating the same nonsense you've heard repeated on numerous right-wing radio and TV shows by people who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to immigration laws and policies, you might want to think twice before making yourself sound as ignorant as you do regarding the REAL IMMIGRATION LAWS that REAL IMMIGRANTS AND THEIR SPONSORS have to deal with.

A "legal immigrant" has: a visa, a sponsor, possibly a work permit.  They do not have the right to file for any social benefit programs except the ones they have personally paid into and have accrued benefits from which they can be paid out.  They are not entitled to collect more benefits than they paid in, just like the rest of us.  If they are deported for any reason, they lose all of those benefits.

Anybody else has no rights to make claims, and any such claims are equivalent to robbing a bank. 

If you witnessed a bank robbery, would you simply turn the other cheek and complain about how rampant bank robberies are today?

If you want to argue with me about this, then please be so kind as to cite the immigration laws you feel I'm misrepresenting as well as cases documenting the widespread corruption and abuse you believe exists and why nobody is doing anything about it.

If the kind of fraud being represented by tabloid journalists is as wide-spread as they claim, it should be a piece of cake to identify the perps and get the FBI involved in resolving the cases.  I hear lots and lots of complaints, but I see very little evidence of anybody being either arrested or prosecuted for the myriad of laws this type of fraud implies are being broken.

-David
0
David
9/29/2013 6:02:37 PM
Nick Hodges wrote:

> Canada is a great example of that.  So much so that Microsoft set up
> an office in Vancouver to hire all the people that they wanted to
> hire in the US but can't because they can't get the people into the
> US.
> 
> That's a lot of taxes and profits for Canadian companies that the US
> didn't get because we won't let people come here and work, create
> profits, and pay taxes.

Does it make me a bad person that this makes me happy inside?

-- 
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
0
Bruce
9/30/2013 12:14:16 AM
Bruce McGee wrote:

> Does it make me a bad person that this makes me happy inside?

Hehe.

-- 
Nick
Delphi Programming is fun.
0
Nick
9/30/2013 12:29:09 AM
On 2013-09-29 14:02:37 -0400, David Schwartz <> said:

> Now … tell me again how all of these non-citizens are coming here and 
> bleeding our social benefit programs dry without either their sponsors 
> or the government employees responsible for those expenses being 
> affected.

You're talking exclusively about the US and immigration.  Canada has a 
much different immigration and social services system, especially when 
it comes to refugee claimants.

--
Kevin Powick
0
Kevin
9/30/2013 2:24:15 PM
Reply:

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