All,

The new roadmap for RAD Studio has been posted.

Link:  http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/39934

Enjoy,

Mike

"Michael Rozlog" <michael.rozlog@embarcadero.com> wrote in message 
news:241286@forums.embarcadero.com...

> The new roadmap for RAD Studio has been posted.

We have to wait all the way until Commodore to get better documentation? 
And until Chromium to get OTA documentation?

-- 
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)

On 10.05.2010 23:50, Michael Rozlog wrote:
> All,
>
> The new roadmap for RAD Studio has been posted.
>
> Link:  http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/39934
>
> Enjoy,
>
> Mike

What is the release date for Delphi Win64? Slide 11 is the same as years 
before. ???

Michael Rozlog wrote:

> The new roadmap for RAD Studio has been posted.
> 
> Link:  http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/39934

Thanks Mike, but I am not sure what the availability of the 64-bit
compiler preview should tell me.

Should it make me happy that I probably get my hands on a 64-bit
compiler in about year - or - should it make me unhappy by thinking
that Commodore = Delphi 2013 = released after July 1, 2012 - or -
should it make me happy by thinking that R&D and QA makes sure that
Commodore will work as expected right from the beginning?
-- 
Uwe

Le 10/05/10 22:50, Michael Rozlog a écrit :

> Link:  http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/39934

http://gp.embarcadero.com/authors/edit/1738.aspx

So, Michael, you're still working for Borland? ;-)

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [TeamB|http://www.teamb.com]
Consultant Software Engineer

On 5/10/2010 4:50 PM, Michael Rozlog wrote:
> The new roadmap for RAD Studio has been posted.

Assuming you guys stick to yearly releases, this reads like:

Fulcrum = RAD 2011 = Fall 2010
Wheelhouse = RAD 2012 = Fall 2011
Commodore = RAD 2013 = Fall 2012

Is that incorrect?

--
Craig Peterson
Scooter Software

Craig Peterson wrote:

> Assuming you guys stick to yearly releases, this reads like:
> 
> Fulcrum = RAD 2011 = Fall 2010
> Wheelhouse = RAD 2012 = Fall 2011
> Commodore = RAD 2013 = Fall 2012
> 
> Is that incorrect?

I think the same...

....except that it reads " = Summer 201x", because August 25 (D2009) and
August 24 (D2010) where in summer and Delphi Live! starts on August 23.
-- 
Uwe

> {quote:title=Uwe Schuster wrote:}{quote}
> Thanks Mike, but I am not sure what the availability of the 64-bit
> compiler preview should tell me.
> 
> Should it make me happy that I probably get my hands on a 64-bit
> compiler in about year - or - should it make me unhappy by thinking
> that Commodore = Delphi 2013 = released after July 1, 2012 - or -
> should it make me happy by thinking that R&D and QA makes sure that
> Commodore will work as expected right from the beginning?

I am personally not happy. Looking at the roadmap, 64 bit is now going to be ready at launch for Windows, Mac and Linux apps.  That, IMHO, delays it further than it would be if it only needed to be ready for Windows.  It also feels like Win64 has just been pushed back a year until after the Linux version.  We know "Fulcrum" is Delphi 2011.  The big questions is "Is 'Wheelhouse' slated for Delphi 2012 or a mid stream update with 'Commodore' being slated Delphi 2012?".

---
Dean

> {quote:title=Craig Peterson wrote:}{quote}
> Assuming you guys stick to yearly releases, this reads like:
> 
> Fulcrum = RAD 2011 = Fall 2010
> Wheelhouse = RAD 2012 = Fall 2011
> Commodore = RAD 2013 = Fall 2012
> 
> Is that incorrect?

If that is the case then I am done with Delphi and will not be creating any new applications with it.  While this post is to a certain extent emotional, it's becoming almost impossible to continue to use Delphi when it lags so far behind the Windows releases.  That would put Windows 64 bit support more than 2 years away with a lot of time after that before it stabilises.

---
Dean

On 10.05.2010 23:50, Michael Rozlog wrote:
> All,
>
> The new roadmap for RAD Studio has been posted.
>
> Link:  http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/39934
>
> Enjoy,
>
> Mike



Who wants all these features and projects??? Folks are waiting for 64 
bit support. Emba, cancel all these projects! It's a waste of staff years!

Ralf Stocker wrote:

> Who wants all these features and projects??? Folks are waiting for 64 
> bit support. Emba, cancel all these projects! It's a waste of staff
> years!

Doesn't need the compiler be in a certain state to start? Would you
want to put 10 R&D engineers into the compiler team. No thanks, because
too many cooks spoil the broth.
-- 
Uwe

Uwe Schuster wrote:

> Doesn't need the compiler be in a certain state to start?

The current compiler is pretty good, all it needs is an extra 32 bits
 
:p

-- 
Pieter

"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength; loving
 someone deeply gives you courage."
 -- Lao tzu

"Michael Rozlog" <michael.rozlog@embarcadero.com> wrote in message 
news:241286@forums.embarcadero.com...
> All,
>
> The new roadmap for RAD Studio has been posted.
>
> Link:  http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/39934
>
> Enjoy,
>
> Mike

Well, I'm not sure if this is good news or bad :-)

Projects "Fulcrum" and "Wheelhouse" offer nothing that our company needs.

My only question is when will we have 64 bit support for Windows?

Alistair Ward.

"Alistair Ward" wrote on Mon, 10 May 2010 17:05:34 -0700:

> My only question is when will we have 64 bit support for Windows?

That's Commodore.  The roadmap doesn't give a projected time of
availability, but it looks as if it's three releases away.  It's all
speculation on our part, but it would seem, based on recent release
patterns, that it will be 2012.  Just a guess.

The Azure Integration for Fulcrum (Delphi 2011) is interesting.  I
just wish I didn't have to wait half a year for a Cantu book to get
the most out of my Delphi upgrades and actually learn how to use stuff
like that.

Frankly, 2012 for 64-bit isn't going to be a real problem for my
primary bread-and-butter application, but it does mean I won't be able
to do what I want with some other projects.  It's unfortunate for
those of us who don't really care about Mac and Linux (which is also
~90% of the desktop software industry), but who knows -- hopefully Emb
knows what they are doing. :-)

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com

> {quote:title=Craig Peterson wrote:}{quote}
> On 5/10/2010 4:50 PM, Michael Rozlog wrote:
> > The new roadmap for RAD Studio has been posted.
> 
> Assuming you guys stick to yearly releases, this reads like:
> 
> Fulcrum = RAD 2011 = Fall 2010
> Wheelhouse = RAD 2012 = Fall 2011
> Commodore = RAD 2013 = Fall 2012
> 
> Is that incorrect?

From a quick look at this, it looks to me like "Wheelhouse" is something Prism-related that has nothing to do with Delphi or C++ Builder.  So Commodore = Delphi 2012, and Wheelhouse = Prism 2012.  Or something.

*EDIT:*  Oops!  Just reloaded it, and saw that slide #10 never loaded for me the first time.  So... nevermind.

Hopefully this will be some sort of interim release (Delphi 2011.5?) and not a full release. That 64-bit support really is needed for D2012, for social reasons if not necessarily for technical ones.

Edited by: Mason Wheeler on May 10, 2010 5:36 PM

> {quote:title=Craig Peterson wrote:}{quote}
> Assuming you guys stick to yearly releases, this reads like:
> 
> Fulcrum = RAD 2011 = Fall 2010
> Wheelhouse = RAD 2012 = Fall 2011
> Commodore = RAD 2013 = Fall 2012

Last year at Delphi Live (or the road map maybe) they said they were doing something different in R&D where they would be working on multiple projects simultaneously.  These projects did not translate into individual releases, so one release might include multiple projects.  This allowed them to work on features that take more then one year to implement, and also to create releases based on what features are complete.

I don't recall the details, but Delphi 2010 included a couple of "separate" projects from the earlier road maps.

If you look at the slide that talks about Prism 2011, I believe that is the Prism release due any day now (it is on a 6 month release schedule), so if each of those entries are based on the 6 month Prism release schedule then Fulcrum will be latter half of this year (which is what we expected) and Wheelhouse will be first part of next year, leaving Commodore will be latter half of next year.  

This is all conjecture.  I am not basing it on any inside information, just the fact that they previously announced that each "project" <> "individual release," and Prism is on a 6 month release cycle. 

--
-Jim McKeeth
www.Delphi.org
www.DavinciUnltd.com

On Mon, 10 May 2010 15:49:32 -0700, Dean Hill <> wrote:

>> {quote:title=Uwe Schuster wrote:}{quote}
>> Thanks Mike, but I am not sure what the availability of the 64-bit
>> compiler preview should tell me.
>> 
>> Should it make me happy that I probably get my hands on a 64-bit
>> compiler in about year - or - should it make me unhappy by thinking
>> that Commodore = Delphi 2013 = released after July 1, 2012 - or -
>> should it make me happy by thinking that R&D and QA makes sure that
>> Commodore will work as expected right from the beginning?
>
>I am personally not happy. Looking at the roadmap, 64 bit is now going to be ready at launch for Windows, Mac and Linux apps.  That, IMHO, delays it further than it would be if it only needed to be ready for Windows.  It also feels like Win64 has just been pushed back a year until after the Linux version.  We know "Fulcrum" is Delphi 2011.  The big questions is "Is 'Wheelhouse' slated for Delphi 2012 or a mid stream update with 'Commodore' being slated Delphi 2012?".

Yup, I'm not one bit happy, either.

It looks like they are more interested in hunting for new markets than
keeping existing customers.

Joanna,

That was my old profile from the Borland days.

I was under the impression that they deleted that one.

I will find out about removing that one.

Thanks,

Mike
"Joanna Carter" <joanna@no.spam.for.me> wrote in message 
news:241304@forums.embarcadero.com...
> Le 10/05/10 22:50, Michael Rozlog a écrit :
>
>> Link:  http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/39934
>
> http://gp.embarcadero.com/authors/edit/1738.aspx
>
> So, Michael, you're still working for Borland? ;-)
>
> Joanna
>
> -- 
> Joanna Carter [TeamB|http://www.teamb.com]
> Consultant Software Engineer

All,

With regards to 64 bit and Commodore... as you know I can't give any dates. 
However, I was able to get a date published for the 64 bit compiler preview, 
which is the 1st half of 2011.  This is around 7 months away.  As we have 
stated before, we are working on multiple fronts with the product. 
Embarcadero has put massive resources on the project and everybody is 
working really hard to deliver the best products possible.

I wish I could give everybody all the features in the roadmap today.  Since 
we know that is not possible, we have hopefully built projects that will get 
the technology out as soon as possible.  There is a lot to the 64 bit 
compiler... to refresh some of the issues, please refer to Nick's article: 
http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/39174

The good news is unlike times in the past, we actually have people working 
on parts of these projects now to maximize output and some features move up 
and some features move down.

Mike

"Uwe Schuster" <jedivcs@bitcommander.de> wrote in message 
news:241302@forums.embarcadero.com...
> Michael Rozlog wrote:
>
>> The new roadmap for RAD Studio has been posted.
>>
>> Link:  http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/39934
>
> Thanks Mike, but I am not sure what the availability of the 64-bit
> compiler preview should tell me.
>
> Should it make me happy that I probably get my hands on a 64-bit
> compiler in about year - or - should it make me unhappy by thinking
> that Commodore = Delphi 2013 = released after July 1, 2012 - or -
> should it make me happy by thinking that R&D and QA makes sure that
> Commodore will work as expected right from the beginning?
> -- 
> Uwe

Michael Rozlog wrote:

> All,
> 
> The new roadmap for RAD Studio has been posted.
> 
> Link:  http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/39934
> 
> Enjoy,
> 
> Mike

Thanks for update Mike.

I have renewed my 12 license enterprise upgrade since Delphi 1 every
year, but looking at the features on the roadmap, I dont see anything
we can justify for the cost.  At least for the next couple years.  Not
sure if I will be money ahead stopping SA and then re-entering at full
cost though.  Will have to check that out.  I am sure x-compiler is a
desired feature by most, but for us, its not needed.

"Mason Wheeler" wrote on Mon, 10 May 2010 17:39:11 -0700:

> That 64-bit support really is needed for D2012, for social reasons if not necessarily for technical ones.

Absolutely.  It doesn't matter that 32-bits is usually enough.  Not
being able to compile 64-bits is far more of a marketing problem than
not being able to compile for Steve Jobs' OS.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com

On 10-May-10 14:50, Michael Rozlog wrote:
> All,
>
> The new roadmap for RAD Studio has been posted.
>
> Link:  http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/39934
>
> Enjoy,
>
> Mike

Mike,
you might want to add a PDF version of the slideshow for download - for 
some reason the slides are loading very slowly (or not at all).

As for the content of the "roadmap": It is so full of disclaimers and 
"under consideration" tags that it provides very little hard information 
that we need to guide our purchasing and development decisions (e.g. 
Porting our apps to Mac or Linux, renewing S&M contracts, Win64 support).

For example: Delphi 2011 is likely to be released in the next 2-3 months 
(based on past releases), but to date we have very little hard 
information about what is going to be included in that release.

Michael

<Mason Wheeler> wrote in message news:241344@forums.embarcadero.com...
>
> *EDIT:*  Oops!  Just reloaded it, and saw that slide #10 never loaded for
me the first time.  So... nevermind.

Same here. Slide 10 and 11 was missing and I wondered if there was nothing
about 64-bit at all. Back to reading again.....

> {quote:title=Mason Wheeler wrote:}{quote}
> That 64-bit support really is needed for D2012, for social reasons if not necessarily for technical ones.

Social reasons? I don't get it.

If the parties and social events you attend are full of programming geeks, and the major topic of discussion is "how many bits does your compiler have?" then don't bother inviting me. ;)

As much as I look forward to the eventual release of the 64-bit compiler (assuming I live that long), I don't anticipate it doing much for my social life.
--
Rick Carter
Chair, Delphi/Paradox SIG, Cincinnati PC Users Group

> {quote:title=Bob Fisher wrote:}{quote}
> I have renewed my 12 license enterprise upgrade since Delphi 1 every
> year, but looking at the features on the roadmap, I dont see anything
> we can justify for the cost.  At least for the next couple years.  Not
> sure if I will be money ahead stopping SA and then re-entering at full
> cost though.  Will have to check that out.  I am sure x-compiler is a
> desired feature by most, but for us, its not needed.

You may want to rethink that, Bob. As you know, Delphi 2010 was just an "interim release," yet most people who are using it are agreed that it's "the best Delphi ever." If the Delphi team continues with improvements to the VCL, IDE, and RTL in every new release, that alone is enough to make me want to continue with SA, even if the major touted feature in a new release doesn't interest me that much.
--
Rick Carter
Chair, Delphi/Paradox SIG, Cincinnati PC Users Group

> {quote:title=Rick Carter wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=Bob Fisher wrote:}{quote}
> > I have renewed my 12 license enterprise upgrade since Delphi 1 every
> > year, but looking at the features on the roadmap, I dont see anything
> > we can justify for the cost.  At least for the next couple years.  Not
> > sure if I will be money ahead stopping SA and then re-entering at full
> > cost though.  Will have to check that out.  I am sure x-compiler is a
> > desired feature by most, but for us, its not needed.
> 
> You may want to rethink that, Bob. As you know, Delphi 2010 was just an "interim release," yet most people who are using it are agreed that it's "the best Delphi ever." If the Delphi team continues with improvements to the VCL, IDE, and RTL in every new release, that alone is enough to make me want to continue with SA, even if the major touted feature in a new release doesn't interest me that much.

+1 

Dalija Prasnikar

> Doesn't need the compiler be in a certain state to start? Would you
> want to put 10 R&D engineers into the compiler team. No thanks, because
> too many cooks spoil the broth.

Given what happened with the compiler enhancements for generics and the rest, they could definitely put a lot of extra staff on the testing side: vastly expand their unit tests suite, include more integration and platform tests, etc.

If Generics are anything to go by, it'll be 1-2 years after the "final" compiler release before the 64bit compiler can be safely relied upon...

Anyway, this 64bit compiler is still looking so far away it might not exist. This is getting utterly ridiculous.

Michael Rozlog wrote:
> All,
> 
> With regards to 64 bit and Commodore... as you know I can't give any dates. 
> However, I was able to get a date published for the 64 bit compiler preview, 
> which is the 1st half of 2011.  This is around 7 months away.  

Or actually 13 months :)

Anyway, thanks for sharing your vision. It does not give anything to 
hooray at the moment, but I wish you lots of energy to get all the 
projects to a satisfying goal. The complete target is very demanding.

Many of us would like to put Windows 64-bit compiler on the first place, 
though, so remember that it is the priority #1 target.

BR,

Jouni Aro
Prosys
www.prosysopc.com

> {quote:title=Uwe Schuster wrote:}{quote}
> Craig Peterson wrote:
> 
> > Assuming you guys stick to yearly releases, this reads like:
> > 
> > Fulcrum = RAD 2011 = Fall 2010
> > Wheelhouse = RAD 2012 = Fall 2011
> > Commodore = RAD 2013 = Fall 2012
> > 
> > Is that incorrect?
> 
> I think the same...
> 
> ...except that it reads " = Summer 201x", because August 25 (D2009) and
> August 24 (D2010) where in summer and Delphi Live! starts on August 23.
> -- 

I am reading it like this
Fulcrum = RAD 2011 = August 2010
Wheelhouse & Commodore = RAD 2012 = August 2011

Maybe I am overly optimistic, but you never know. If 64 bit preview is only 7 
months away, maybe full compiler could get into RAD 2012 release.

Dalija Prasnikar

Dalija Prasnikar schreef:
>> {quote:title=Uwe Schuster wrote:}{quote}
>> Craig Peterson wrote:
>>
>>> Assuming you guys stick to yearly releases, this reads like:
>>>
>>> Fulcrum = RAD 2011 = Fall 2010
>>> Wheelhouse = RAD 2012 = Fall 2011
>>> Commodore = RAD 2013 = Fall 2012
>>>
>>> Is that incorrect?
>> I think the same...
>>
>> ...except that it reads " = Summer 201x", because August 25 (D2009) and
>> August 24 (D2010) where in summer and Delphi Live! starts on August 23.
>> -- 
> 
> I am reading it like this
> Fulcrum = RAD 2011 = August 2010
> Wheelhouse & Commodore = RAD 2012 = August 2011
> 
> Maybe I am overly optimistic, but you never know. If 64 bit preview is only 7 
> months away, maybe full compiler could get into RAD 2012 release.
> 
> Dalija Prasnikar


I do hope it will be august ... but still no public beta available. And 
august isn't fall 2010 :). It sound more like the month of 
November/December to me :p

Mike,

> With regards to 64 bit and Commodore... as you know I can't give any dates.
> However, I was able to get a date published for the 64 bit compiler preview,
> which is the 1st half of 2011.  This is around 7 months away.  As we have
> stated before, we are working on multiple fronts with the product.
> Embarcadero has put massive resources on the project and everybody is
> working really hard to deliver the best products possible.

Thank you very much for the information. Although I hoped that we will 
get the preview early I'm very happy about your open words.

-- 
Thanks,

Roman

> The new roadmap for RAD Studio has been posted.

Server support for MacOS X? Who runs MacOS *servers*? The only Apple server is good for small installations only, say the classic design/multimedia office using those Adobe applications now Apple hates so much...

At least now I see *secuirity* is "thought of", despite recent breaches in many companies show how important is protecting applications, data and datapaths today.  Call it "cyberwarfare" or "cybersecurity", please, that way it becomes a buzzword and you will be glad to add it to your list of buzzwords together "social networking integration" (is that a tool issue?? no crypto library but a twitter/facebook one????), "cloud" (how are you going to protect data going to and from the "cloud"???), "RESTful", "f
unctional programming" etc etc.

Remember Delphi has a Greek name, keeping on ignoring what really needs to be done may lead to disaster.... <g>

Edited by: Luigi Sandon on May 11, 2010 4:02 AM

Luigi Sandon wrote:
> "social networking integration"

I grinned at that one too. Actually, that looks more like something a
third party should produce. Does any third-party product offer Facebook
and Twitter integration today, btw?

Il Tue, 11 May 2010 04:02:28 -0700, Luigi Sandon <> ha scritto:

[snip]
>Remember Delphi has a Greek name, keeping on ignoring what really needs to be done may lead to disaster.... <g>
[snip]

Scusa Luigi, lo so che la tua è una battuta, ma...
(Excuse me, Luigi, I know that you are joking, but...)

It seems a bit unpolite, expecially if referred to all greek citizens 
that are working hard all days. Strange that the Italians have a memory 
so short, expecially regarding their economic situation in the '70, when 
to survive they had a inflation like in the time of war. I suspect, 
despite their public debt, that if Italy is not go bankrupt, it is only 
the fact that they are a waggon of the German locomotive, i.e. thanks to 
the euro.

Regards.

Giuliano

> {quote:title=Ralf Stocker wrote:}{quote}
> Who wants all these features and projects??? 

Me, for one.  More Linux than Mac.

--
Regards
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software

Another +1 here. I've been starting a new project in D2010 and it is very nice,
even compared to D2007. Hard to say why, but seems more polished.

/Matthew Jones/

> {quote:title=Giuliano . wrote:}{quote}
> Il Tue, 11 May 2010 04:02:28 -0700, Luigi Sandon <> ha scritto:
> 
> [snip]
> >Remember Delphi has a Greek name, keeping on ignoring what really needs to be done may lead to disaster.... <g>
> [snip]
> 
> Scusa Luigi, lo so che la tua è una battuta, ma...
> (Excuse me, Luigi, I know that you are joking, but...)
> 
> It seems a bit unpolite, expecially if referred to all greek citizens 
> that are working hard all days. Strange that the Italians have a memory 
> so short, expecially regarding their economic situation in the '70, when 
> to survive they had a inflation like in the time of war. I suspect, 
> despite their public debt, that if Italy is not go bankrupt, it is only 
> the fact that they are a waggon of the German locomotive, i.e. thanks to 
> the euro.
> 
> Regards.
> 
> Giuliano


I read Italy is the #2 behind Greece...at the end, Greece, Spain, Italy have to leave the Euro zone.

"Michael Rozlog" wrote on Mon, 10 May 2010 14:50:32 -0700:

> The new roadmap for RAD Studio has been posted.

BTW, Michael, I just wanted to say thanks for posting this.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com

"Rick Carter" wrote on Mon, 10 May 2010 23:05:28 -0700:

> You may want to rethink that, Bob. As you know, Delphi 2010 was just an "interim release," yet most people who are using it are agreed that it's "the best Delphi ever." If the Delphi team continues with improvements to the VCL, IDE, and RTL in every new release, that alone is enough to make me want to continue with SA, even if the major touted feature in a new release doesn't interest me that much.

That's where I am.  I don't see much on this roadmap "for me," but
Delphi is a vital part of my business tool chest, and it would be
utterly foolish for me not to continue with SA, especially considering
what an absolute winner Delphi 2010 turned out to be.

One good productivity improvement in the IDE can pay for SA.  That
keeps it in perspective for me.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com

"Rick Carter" wrote on Mon, 10 May 2010 22:55:09 -0700:

>> {quote:title=Mason Wheeler wrote:}{quote}
>> That 64-bit support really is needed for D2012, for social reasons if not necessarily for technical ones.
> 
> Social reasons? I don't get it.

I think I understood -- he means the "perceptions" of a development
platform that doesn't support 64-bit compilation.  There is also a
marketing issue for ISVs -- even though 64-bit adds nothing to "most"
applications, you still have to deal with potential customers/clients
that want to see the latest and greatest.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com

> {quote:title=Brandon Staggs wrote:}{quote}
> "Rick Carter" wrote on Mon, 10 May 2010 22:55:09 -0700:
> 
> >> {quote:title=Mason Wheeler wrote:}{quote}
> >> That 64-bit support really is needed for D2012, for social reasons if not necessarily for technical ones.
> > 
> > Social reasons? I don't get it.
> 
> I think I understood -- he means the "perceptions" of a development
> platform that doesn't support 64-bit compilation.  There is also a
> marketing issue for ISVs -- even though 64-bit adds nothing to "most"
> applications, you still have to deal with potential customers/clients
> that want to see the latest and greatest.

Exactly.

> It seems a bit unpolite, expecially if referred to all greek citizens 

It was referred to mismanagment and chasing easy consensus instead of tackling real issues, and it's hard to deny Greece wasn't mismanaged. It's not the only country - that's true. But Delphi is Delphi, not Circe or Sibilla.

Frankly I believe that giving more priority to "social networking integration" than security is a huge mismanagement - and will reduce Delphi appeal even more to serious developers who are working with sensitive data they are not publishing on twitter of facebook - and most companies have today lots of sensitive data to protect, and far less to share on commercial sites.

On 2010-05-10 18:54:05 -0400, Dean Hill <> said:

> That would put Windows 64 bit support more than 2 years away with a lot 
> of time after that before it stabilises.


This is a problem I see as well.  It's fine to say when these items 
will be released, but when will they be truly stable for a production 
environment?  1.0 of anything is never quite up to par.

Also, did anyone catch that "social networking" bullet point?  WTF?  Is 
there going to be a Delphi "Facebook Edition"?

--
Kevin Powick

On 5/10/2010 5:56 PM, Ralf Stocker wrote:
> Who wants all these features and projects??? Folks are waiting for 64
> bit support. Emba, cancel all these projects! It's a waste of staff years!

We're still maintaining a Kylix project, and we can't upgrade to 
anything newer than 2007 until there's Linux support again.  OS X is 
also much more important to us then 64-bit is.

--
Craig Peterson
Scooter Software

Michael Rozlog wrote:
> All,
> 
> The new roadmap for RAD Studio has been posted.
> 
> Link:  http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/39934
> 
> Enjoy,
> 
> Mike

In fact, I'm not enjoying it.  :-(  I think OSX priority was a bad choice for 
Delphi developers though I'm sure its going to work out well for Emb. and the 
product they want to port to OSX.



--
Warm Regards,

Lee

> {quote:title=Mason Wheeler wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=Brandon Staggs wrote:}{quote}
> > "Rick Carter" wrote on Mon, 10 May 2010 22:55:09 -0700:
> > 
> > >> {quote:title=Mason Wheeler wrote:}{quote}
> > >> That 64-bit support really is needed for D2012, for social reasons if not necessarily for technical ones.
> > > 
> > > Social reasons? I don't get it.
> > 
> > I think I understood -- he means the "perceptions" of a development
> > platform that doesn't support 64-bit compilation.  There is also a
> > marketing issue for ISVs -- even though 64-bit adds nothing to "most"
> > applications, you still have to deal with potential customers/clients
> > that want to see the latest and greatest.
> 
> Exactly.

OK, that makes sense. When you said "social reasons," my first thought was that you wanted to be able to use a "pick-up line" something like the following:

"Hey baby, want to come up to my place? I've got a 64-bit compiler that does Object Pascal."

;)
--
Rick Carter
Chair, Delphi/Paradox SIG, Cincinnati PC Users Group

> {quote:title=Rick Carter wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=Mason Wheeler wrote:}{quote}
> > > {quote:title=Brandon Staggs wrote:}{quote}
> > > "Rick Carter" wrote on Mon, 10 May 2010 22:55:09 -0700:
> > > 
> > > >> {quote:title=Mason Wheeler wrote:}{quote}
> > > >> That 64-bit support really is needed for D2012, for social reasons if not necessarily for technical ones.
> > > > 
> > > > Social reasons? I don't get it.
> > > 
> > > I think I understood -- he means the "perceptions" of a development
> > > platform that doesn't support 64-bit compilation.  There is also a
> > > marketing issue for ISVs -- even though 64-bit adds nothing to "most"
> > > applications, you still have to deal with potential customers/clients
> > > that want to see the latest and greatest.
> > 
> > Exactly.
> 
> OK, that makes sense. When you said "social reasons," my first thought was that you wanted to be able to use a "pick-up line" something like the following:
> 
> "Hey baby, want to come up to my place? I've got a 64-bit compiler that does Object Pascal."
> 
> ;)

+snerk+

OK, out of all the girls I've ever known in my life, I think there's a grand total of one that a line like that might have a chance of working on. :P

Le 11/05/10 19:31, Mason Wheeler a écrit :

> OK, out of all the girls I've ever known in my life, I think there's
> a grand total of one that a line like that might have a chance of
> working on. :P

It might work for me, but you'd have to substitute Objective-C for 
Pascal ;-)

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [TeamB|http://www.teamb.com]
Consultant Software Engineer

Mason Wheeler wrote:

> OK, out of all the girls I've ever known in my life, I think there's
> a grand total of one that a line like that might have a chance of
> working on. :P

I hope you married her.

> {quote:title=Nick Hodges wrote:}{quote}
> Mason Wheeler wrote:
> 
> > OK, out of all the girls I've ever known in my life, I think there's
> > a grand total of one that a line like that might have a chance of
> > working on. :P
> 
> I hope you married her.

I wish I could be so lucky...

Nick Hodges wrote:

> Mason Wheeler wrote:
> 
> > OK, out of all the girls I've ever known in my life, I think there's
> > a grand total of one that a line like that might have a chance of
> > working on. :P
> 
> I hope you married her.

	Which reminds me. I heard a weird story on the radio this morning. It
said that you and David Clegg had a son who is now the Prime Minister
of the UK.

	Or something like that. The reception wasn't great and I hadn't had my
coffee yet.

	Congratulations anyway,

	-Craig

-- 
Craig Stuntz · Vertex Systems Corp. · Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz/

Hello,

unfortunatelly my recommendation from last time wasn't folowed again:
put a small black border around each slide. Makes it easier to follow them.

Greetings

Markus

Craig,

> We're still maintaining a Kylix project, and we can't upgrade to
> anything newer than 2007 until there's Linux support again.  OS X is
> also much more important to us then 64-bit is.

Is there a special reason why you can't upgrade to anything newer than 
2007? We do compile the same code with 2007 and 2010 in order to support 
different OS.

-- 
Roman

Hello,

seems you didn't read those disclaimers thoroughly enough or there
weren't enough of them ;-)
You missed the disclaimer telling you to NOT base any purchasing etc.
decisions on those slides!

Greetings

Markus

Hello,

thanks for appreciating out locomotive...
One economic magazine recently wrote that IT could fare better if your
prime minister would better do economic policits that working on laws
needed to keep the judges off him (they counted 20 or so laws only
needed for that purpose).

Greetings

Markus

On Tue, 11 May 2010 07:27:43 -0700, Brandon Staggs <nospam@a.b.c>
wrote:

>"Rick Carter" wrote on Mon, 10 May 2010 22:55:09 -0700:
>
>>> {quote:title=Mason Wheeler wrote:}{quote}
>>> That 64-bit support really is needed for D2012, for social reasons if not necessarily for technical ones.
>> 
>> Social reasons? I don't get it.
>
>I think I understood -- he means the "perceptions" of a development
>platform that doesn't support 64-bit compilation.  There is also a
>marketing issue for ISVs -- even though 64-bit adds nothing to "most"
>applications, you still have to deal with potential customers/clients
>that want to see the latest and greatest.

There's also the problem that the delays in supporting 64-bit give a
strong impression of them not being trustworthy in responding to
needed changes.

Look at the plug-in writers that have quite legitimately been
screaming about the problem.

That makes one worry about what other critical thing might not get
supported in time in the future.

Eric Grange wrote:

> > Doesn't need the compiler be in a certain state to start? Would you
> > want to put 10 R&D engineers into the compiler team. No thanks,
> > because too many cooks spoil the broth.
> 
> Given what happened with the compiler enhancements for generics and
> the rest, they could definitely put a lot of extra staff on the
> testing side: vastly expand their unit tests suite, include more
> integration and platform tests, etc.

I guess they have already more QA people in the Compiler/RTL area,
because I've seen other names then Jason and Takahashi-San in the
resolution comments of the compiler issues.

> If Generics are anything to go by, it'll be 1-2 years after the
> "final" compiler release before the 64bit compiler can be safely
> relied upon...

I hope that doesn't repeat, because thats the reason for the rewrite.
-- 
Uwe

"Loren Pechtel" wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 13:35:39 -0700:

> Look at the plug-in writers that have quite legitimately been
> screaming about the problem.

My ExactFile program ( http://www.exactfile.com ) lacks shell
integration (which I have been asked to add) mainly because I have no
way to compile 64-bit shell extensions.  Thankfully ExactFile is a
hobby app and nothing I rely on for income.

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com

On 5/11/2010 3:12 PM, Roman Kassebaum wrote:
> Is there a special reason why you can't upgrade to anything newer than
> 2007? We do compile the same code with 2007 and 2010 in order to support
> different OS.

Because it's not worth the effort.

1) We're already Unicode enabled.  We've been using the TNT controls for 
5 years now, so we don't gain anything there.

2) Since WideString isn't reference counted, we use UTF8String almost 
exclusively, with explicit conversions where necessary, and wrappers for 
everything from UpperCase to TStringList.

3) We do a lot of low-level file parsing in multiple encodings.

4) We have a lot of calls into the Win32 API, and already call ANSI or 
Unicode versions based on the OS.

5) We can't use any language enhancements newer than Kylix.

6) The only end-user visible change would be the loss of Win9x support.

This is specific to us though, and not a criticism of Delphi 2010.  Once 
we can drop Kylix I'll happily rip out TNT, switch entirely to 
UnicodeString, and probably clean up a ton of code.  Until then it's 
busy work that would destabilize and complicate things.  If we're going 
to go through that kind of effort, it's only going to be once, when we 
can drop *all* of the legacy cruft.

--
Craig Peterson
Scooter Software

On 5/11/2010 4:09 PM, Brandon Staggs wrote:
> My ExactFile program ( http://www.exactfile.com ) lacks shell
> integration (which I have been asked to add) mainly because I have no
> way to compile 64-bit shell extensions.  Thankfully ExactFile is a
> hobby app and nothing I rely on for income.

We're using FreePascal for our 64-bit shell extension, and it hasn't 
been tough at all.  We did have to write our own COM registration and 
factory support, but that wasn't really that complicated.

--
Craig Peterson
Scooter Software

Craig Stuntz wrote:

> you and David Clegg had a son who is now the Prime Minister
> of the UK.
> 
> 	Or something like that.

ROFL!

-- 
John Kaster http://blogs.embarcadero.com/johnk
Embarcadero Developer Network: http://edn.embarcadero.com
Features and bugs: http://qc.embarcadero.com
Got source?  http://cc.embarcadero.com

> {quote:title=Craig Stuntz wrote:}{quote}

> Which reminds me. I heard a weird story on the radio this morning. It
> said that you and David Clegg had a son who is now the Prime Minister
> of the UK.

You can really see the family resemblance here, http://johnkaster.com/images/dclegg/2010-05-12_0941.png.

--
Cheers,
David Clegg
dclegg@gmail.com
http://cc.embarcadero.com/author/72299

> I read Italy is the #2 behind Greece...at the end, Greece, Spain, Italy have to leave the Euro zone.

Strange as it seems, Portugal and Spain (and maybe Ireland) actually are in worse conditions than Italy, despite Italy long tradition in government mismanagement. And Great Britain itself is not very well today, after believing financial junk was sound economy. Italy has a huge public debt, but a small private one - and in some areas a strong industrial capability. Greece really greatly amplified Italy own issues - without the those life buoys that kept Italy afloat till now. Anyway German banks greatly h
elped Greece buying its bonds... (http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/28/german-banks-have-big-investment-in-greece/)

If you want to laugh a little - but not much: http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=16003661

Anyway, the smaller the euro zone, the more useless the euro itself - a couple of big falls and the euro itself would blow up.

Il Tue, 11 May 2010 13:23:07 -0700, Markus Humm <markus.humm@freenet.de> ha scritto:

>Hello,
>
>thanks for appreciating out locomotive...
>One economic magazine recently wrote that IT could fare better if your
>prime minister would better do economic policits that working on laws
>needed to keep the judges off him (they counted 20 or so laws only
>needed for that purpose).
>
>Greetings
>

Hi Markus,

   you are right, but I'm not italian. :-) Indeed, although we are
been indispensable to the creation of their country, Italians almost 
despise - if not hates - us, as we are victims of constant media attacks.
See also http://www.visitsanmarino.com/default.asp?id=82 for more
information about my country. 
Personally I hate the italian prime minister and his "cricca".
They are very very ugly people... See even the last racist site against 
us on facebook: 

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=58712607829

I'm wondering as facebook permits such group even to exists...

Regards

Giuliano

--

«Although your dominion is small, nevertheless your State 
is one of the most honoured throughout history.» - ABRAHAM LINCOLN

David Clegg wrote:

> > {quote:title=Craig Stuntz wrote:}{quote}
> 
> > Which reminds me. I heard a weird story on the radio this morning.
> > It said that you and David Clegg had a son who is now the Prime
> > Minister of the UK.
> 
> You can really see the family resemblance here,
> http://johnkaster.com/images/dclegg/2010-05-12_0941.png.

Here's what is really crazy: there is another Delphi programmer named
Dave Clegg in Canada. He gets confused when I send him emails.  ;-)

Markus Humm wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> seems you didn't read those disclaimers thoroughly enough or there
> weren't enough of them ;-)
> You missed the disclaimer telling you to NOT base any purchasing etc.
> decisions on those slides!

That hit me as an oxymoron. The only reason that most of us want to
know the road ahead is to be able to take logical decisions for our
development and how to proceed.
Asking not to react on such information is kind of giving a chokolate
bar to a 2 year old and expect it not to eat it dont you think?

The only think that EMB can do is influence our interpretation of the
data. But as always they will not say anything that will reduce their
sails figures.

Never the less the road ahead has been lighten up our time schedules
are infront of us and we are ready to take our decisions.


regards
Yannis.

Nick Hodges wrote:

> Here's what is really crazy: there is another Delphi programmer named
> Dave Clegg in Canada. He gets confused when I send him emails.  ;-)

Next time, ensure you add "Good looking Dave" in the To field :-D

-- 
Cheers,
David Clegg
dclegg@gmail.com
http://cc.embarcadero.com/Author/72299

QualityCentral. The best way to bug Embarcadero about bugs.
http://qc.embarcadero.com

David Clegg wrote:

> Next time, ensure you add "Good looking Dave" in the To field :-D

Would that be for the Canadian David Clegg, or the Kiwi David Clegg? :P

-- 
John Kaster http://blogs.embarcadero.com/johnk
Embarcadero Developer Network: http://edn.embarcadero.com
Features and bugs: http://qc.embarcadero.com
Got source?  http://cc.embarcadero.com

Hi Michael,

Thank you for posting the new roadmap.

Since project Commodore seems to be concentraded on adding 64-bit
compilers, multicore and parallelization support the "Social Networking
Integrations" does not fit well into the pack IMO.

How about replacing it with "CUDA support" ?

Regards,
Zenon

Edited by: Zenon Jordan on May 11, 2010 10:43 PM

Edited by: Zenon Jordan on May 11, 2010 10:44 PM

John Kaster wrote:

> Would that be for the Canadian David Clegg, or the Kiwi David Clegg?
> :P

Don't make me pull out my thwacking stick again!

-- 
Cheers,
David Clegg
dclegg@gmail.com
http://cc.embarcadero.com/Author/72299

QualityCentral. The best way to bug Embarcadero about bugs.
http://qc.embarcadero.com

Michael Rozlog wrote:
> All,
>
> The new roadmap for RAD Studio has been posted.
>
> Link:  http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/39934
>

You mean to tell me that developers don't need better documentation?
I think a lot of developers have given feedback stating that
the current documentation, while improved over the BDS2006 days,
is still lacking compared to D7.

What is up with this?

Adding features such as multi-platform and/or 64bit platform support
and or a host of other features isn't going to help a lot of
the documentation isn't improved.  It's vital to get new
users to understand how to get up and running.  Being slapped
dab in the middle of an IDE with no idea what to do next
isn't helpful for a new user.  Heck,  I sometimes do that.
I run RAD2010 and stare at the screen wondering, "Err what
the smeg do I do next?"  This especially happens when I
don't touch RAD2010 for a while.

I mean, when Fulcrum comes out, will I be saying  "Nice IDE,
but where the smeg is the documentation? Arrgh!  You call
this documentation?"

Come SA renewal time, I need to justify spending HKD9000+
to renew some product which is in effect the same as
what I have now.  I don't do Mac OSX nor do I do cloud
computing (unless I'm daydreaming) so Fulcrum will be
a waste.  Only Wheelhouse interest me as it will include
Linux Support to the RAD Studio (which I'm hoping will
NOT be like Kylix).  Then comes Commodore, which is another
version which I have no interest in at the moment.

Anyway, just my $0.02.

Edmund

"Zenon Jordan" <noone@ishere.com> wrote in message 
news:241810@forums.embarcadero.com...
> Hi Michael,
>
> Thank you for posting the new roadmap.
>
> How about replacing it with "CUDA support" ?
>

+1

> despise - if not hates - us, as we are victims of constant media attacks.

Maybe because like many micro-states it took advantage of its situation to help evasion, money-laundering, fake degrees and so on to sustain its economy? Not alone, true, there are many more others in Europe (we could include up to Switzerland as well, was it victim of an Obama administration attack? Was Liechtenstein a victim of Germany and France?) and off-shore locations. Now a little scared because the crisis forced governments to take a closer look to those "paradises" to get back the now much needed
 money.

> {quote:title=Edmund Wong wrote:}{quote}
> Michael Rozlog wrote:
> > All,
> >
> > The new roadmap for RAD Studio has been posted.
> >
> > Link:  http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/39934
> >
> 
> You mean to tell me that developers don't need better documentation?
> I think a lot of developers have given feedback stating that
> the current documentation, while improved over the BDS2006 days,
> is still lacking compared to D7.
> 
> What is up with this?
> 
> Adding features such as multi-platform and/or 64bit platform support
> and or a host of other features isn't going to help a lot of
> the documentation isn't improved.  It's vital to get new
> users to understand how to get up and running.  Being slapped
> dab in the middle of an IDE with no idea what to do next
> isn't helpful for a new user.  Heck,  I sometimes do that.
> I run RAD2010 and stare at the screen wondering, "Err what
> the smeg do I do next?"  This especially happens when I
> don't touch RAD2010 for a while.
> 

I agree with you that documentation could and should be better, but
if I have to choose between new features and documentation, I'll
vote for new features. We'll always have these forums when documentation
fails :)

Dalija Prasnikar

<Rick Carter> .
> OK, that makes sense. When you said "social reasons," my first thought was 
> that you wanted to be able to use a "pick-up line" something like the 
> following:
>
> "Hey baby, want to come up to my place? I've got a 64-bit compiler that 
> does Object Pascal."
>
> ;)

One should never attempt to impress girls with techy stuff. The only 
exception here is high-tech cars, a Ferrari for instance.

Il Wed, 12 May 2010 00:57:10 -0700, Luigi Sandon <> ha scritto:

>> despise - if not hates - us, as we are victims of constant media attacks.
>
>Maybe because like many micro-states it took advantage of its situation to help evasion, 
>money-laundering, fake degrees and so on to sustain its economy? Not alone, true, 
>there are many more others in Europe (we could include up to Switzerland as well, 
>was it victim of an Obama administration attack? Was Liechtenstein a victim of Germany 
>and France?) and off-shore locations. Now a little scared because the crisis forced 
>governments to take a closer look to those "paradises" to get back the now much needed
> money.

Maybe because in some "big" countries like italy, all the politics are thief and 
the 66% of tax rate is too for anyone? Maybe because in my country the fiscal pressure 
is only at the 36% and *all the citizens* pay the taxes? Maybe because in my country 
there's no the organized criminality (if not imported, alas, from the italy)? Why we have
to pay your taxes? Why in italy is permitted to have some region with special statutes
with special fiscal load and your fellow citizens are silent? It's time to stop this
communist derive toward the lowest level of life. Instead of ask us to rise our taxes, 
lower yours. In my country, with a lower tax rate, things are well done and social
services are ok. Also, in my country working 6000 peoples coming from italy every day, 
respect to 16000 fellow citizens - included me - that works hard all days to make 
a better country. In italy, racism and xenophobia coming from some politics part 
as "Lega Nord", makes hard the economic growth of the entire country. 
We have 1700, not 150 of history; you have to respect us. You have to respect our
boundary, not as just three days ago that "I lagunari", the the Venice's Lagunars has
invaded us because they had gone wrong to read the GPS. This battalion was going to make
shoot training in a polygon near us (Monte Carpegna) before to leave Italy in october for
the afghanistan war. Allies, beware of similar unprepared militar whom even are not able
to read a GPS. 
If yours "intellighenzia " are unprepared, thiefs, dishones and much more... is not 
our fault. As a final notes, *all* the delinquents that make frauds from my country 
are italians. Strange, indeed? 
Obama, in Switzerland, has attacked his fellow citizens that have ported american 
dollars out of USA. He doesn't attacked switzerland citizens as your racist government 
has made with us. Before to look to others, would be far better to look at themselves.
Greeks, that - with irony - you have appointed, was invaded from you long before 
the WW2: if I were you I apologize every day.
You made, in 150 years, so much "casini", that if I were you I would be silent, 
mute and resigned for the bext 150 years.

> {quote:title=Farshad Mohajeri wrote:}{quote}
> >
> > "Hey baby, want to come up to my place? I've got a 64-bit compiler that 
> > does Object Pascal."
> >
> > ;)
> 
> One should never attempt to impress girls with techy stuff. The only 
> exception here is high-tech cars, a Ferrari for instance.

Oh, my baby would be more impressed by the 64-bit compiler. The Ferrari, she got already. :)

Fredy Ferrari

Craig,

> 1) We're already Unicode enabled.  We've been using the TNT controls for
> 5 years now, so we don't gain anything there.
>
> 2) Since WideString isn't reference counted, we use UTF8String almost
> exclusively, with explicit conversions where necessary, and wrappers for
> everything from UpperCase to TStringList.
>
> 3) We do a lot of low-level file parsing in multiple encodings.
>
> 4) We have a lot of calls into the Win32 API, and already call ANSI or
> Unicode versions based on the OS.

Wow! I guess that it has been a lot of work to implement all the stuff!

And what about textfiles? Sometimes it is necessary to write UTF-8 files 
with a preamble. The TEncoding class is able to do this. Did you also 
write your own Encoding class?


> Once we can drop Kylix I'll happily rip out TNT, switch entirely to
> UnicodeString, and probably clean up a ton of code.  Until then it's
> busy work that would destabilize and complicate things.  If we're going
> to go through that kind of effort, it's only going to be once, when we
> can drop *all* of the legacy cruft.

But don't forget your Win9x clients. Therefore you must be able to 
compile your code with D2007. This means that you can't move to 
UnicodeString, you still must use strings which are AnsiStrings in 2007 
and UnicodeString in D2010. Or you have the possibility to define 
"UnicodeString = WideString" in D2007. It depends on your string operations.

-- 
Roman

> {quote:title=Farshad Mohajeri wrote:}{quote}
> <Rick Carter> .
> > OK, that makes sense. When you said "social reasons," my first thought was 
> > that you wanted to be able to use a "pick-up line" something like the 
> > following:
> >
> > "Hey baby, want to come up to my place? I've got a 64-bit compiler that 
> > does Object Pascal."
> >
> > ;)
> 
> One should never attempt to impress girls with techy stuff. The only 
> exception here is high-tech cars, a Ferrari for instance.

You're trying to impress the wrong kind of girls then

Dalija Prasnikar

> {quote:title=Craig Peterson wrote:}{quote}
> We're using FreePascal for our 64-bit shell extension, and it hasn't 
> been tough at all.  We did have to write our own COM registration and 
> factory support, but that wasn't really that complicated.

You are lucky, try and build a namespace extension in FPC, it's not funny.

---
Dean

Michael Rozlog wrote:
> All,
> 
> The new roadmap for RAD Studio has been posted.
> 
> Link:  http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/39934

Is the new Help engine for Visual Studio 2010 going to substitute the 
engine of next generations of Delphi too?

It is a web based help browser it seems to be stated as a comment to the 
  complain of DExplorer never shutting down at their feedback place 
mentioned in the e.p.d.ide news group.

??

>> How about replacing it with "CUDA support" ?
>>
>
> +1

+2

Joanna,

> It might work for me, but you'd have to substitute Objective-C for
> Pascal ;-)
I can't wrap my head around Objective C, I don't know how you
[gals understand: this] syntax... Is there a drug or a weed
that helps you do that [relax your brain and start accepting
square brackets]?

It's the most amazing thing to me that such great software is
written in a language that reads even worse to me than C++....

-- 
Regards,
Michael Baytalsky
Context Software LLC.
http://www.contextsoft.com
the makers of Context Database Designer

> {quote:title=Michael Baytalsky wrote:}{quote}
> Joanna,
> 
> > It might work for me, but you'd have to substitute Objective-C for
> > Pascal ;-)
> I can't wrap my head around Objective C, I don't know how you
> [gals understand: this] syntax... Is there a drug or a weed
> that helps you do that [relax your brain and start accepting
> square brackets]?
> 
> It's the most amazing thing to me that such great software is
> written in a language that reads even worse to me than C++....

Objective-C.  Because someone, somewhere, woke up one day
and said, "Hey, we need a new language that combines the code
readability of C with the performance of Smalltalk."

> if I have to choose between new features and documentation, I'll

You will be never able to use complex new features if the documentation is scanty. And pieces collected here and there in forums or the like would help very little.

"Dalija Prasnikar" wrote in message news:241841@forums.embarcadero.com...

> I agree with you that documentation could and should be better, but
> if I have to choose between new features and documentation, I'll
> vote for new features.

But that should never be a choice!  Can you not see how unreasonable it is 
for a supplier to say "What do you want - more features or better 
documentation?"

Why is it unreasonable? Because of that nasty little "or" in there. 
Features and documentation are NOT separate, competing features.  They are 
BOTH EQUAL COMPONENTS of the product.  They are not appropriate for an "or" 
statement!.  The insertion of the "logical or" is unreasonable and provides 
the supplier with the following fabulous excuses:

"We can't provide a 64-bit compiler if you lot want us to polish the 
documentation."  Or....

"We can't polish the documentation if you lot want a 64-bit compiler."

If you want any credibility in the marketplace, you'd better do both.  If 
you can't, then maybe you should take up something else, like selling ice 
creams, or something.

I am NOT saying the "logical or" is Embarcadero's position.  But it IS 
something that a lot of people in this group have used when arguing against 
people like me, who want much better documentation.

Having said all that, I think Emb. are probably right to ignore people like 
me and go flat out for new features instead........ because it's mostly new 
users who need comprehensive documentation, and I don't believe Delphi is 
attracting a significant number of new users at all.

For the old hands - which surely the vast majority of people in this group 
are - the documentation is pretty unimportant because they are already 
expert Delphi programmers.

So yes - if that is the case, and you aren't chasing new users - then 
deprioritising the documentation might be reasonable.  IF you aren't chasing 
new users.

SteveT

Wouldn't that be a logical xor?

> is only at the 36% and *all the citizens* pay the taxes? Maybe because in my country 

When you're small, very small, and get money form abroad you can afford it. You have almost nothing to build an mantain. I guess Italy should ask a fee everytime you get out of your state.

> there's no the organized criminality (if not imported, alas, from the italy)? Why we have

Sure? Financial crime is crime as well. Again, a very small state has not the issues much larger ones have. Organized crime in Italy is a real issue, noone denies. But it is greatly helped by all those countries who help to hide money.

> to pay your taxes? Why in italy is permitted to have some region with special statutes
> with special fiscal load and your fellow citizens are silent? It's time to stop this

Who's silent? Why do we speak about federalism?

> lower yours. In my country, with a lower tax rate, things are well done and social

You can do whatever you like. But if you break laws, or help to, you are accountable anyway.

> a better country. In italy, racism and xenophobia coming from some politics part 
> as "Lega Nord", makes hard the economic growth of the entire country. 

Sorry, "Lega Nord" was born in the most productive and richer part of Italy - and most of its voter are not racist nor xenophobic, but had enough of the "greek-like" attitude of part of the country. IMHO "Lega Nord" is not the solution, because all too well it is taking advantage of the state resources too, but it was able to obtain easy consensus building on the issues, while the other national parties pretend to ignore them. Growth is hindered by many other factors.

> We have 1700, not 150 of history; you have to respect us. You have to respect our

C'mon, that's the usual silly arguments used by "Lega Nord", "Liga Veneta" and so on. Germany is even a younger political union, and it become a great state. I do respect anybody who respect rules and laws. Your attitude is exactly the same shown by "Lega Nord".

> invaded us because they had gone wrong to read the GPS. This battalion was going to make

Oh, feel free to launch a counterattack. You have still some of those 1700 years old weapons, right? <g>

> are italians. Strange, indeed? 

Your are "italians" too, you are not a separate culture or race. Probably that's why it is so easy to commit crimes together.

> Greeks, that - with irony - you have appointed, was invaded from you long before 
> the WW2: if I were you I apologize every day.

yes, we invaded it in 196 BC too. So what?

> You made, in 150 years, so much "casini", that if I were you I would be silent, 

Oh well Germany and USSR even made bigger ones. Should they be silent too? Again, when your are a micro-state there's little you can do, in the good and the bad.

"Edmund Wong" <ed@kdtc.net> wrote in message 
news:241812@forums.embarcadero.com...
>
> You mean to tell me that developers don't need better documentation?
> I think a lot of developers have given feedback stating that
> the current documentation, while improved over the BDS2006 days,
> is still lacking compared to D7.

In reading the roadmap, do you somehow think they are not going to be doing 
*any* work on the documentation between now and then?? That is a rather 
absurd leap of logic - they have a documentation team, so I don't think they 
are going to pay them to twiddle their thumbs for any length of time. They 
are *continuously* working to keep the docs up to date and keep improving 
them as much as possible. The evidence is pretty clear over the last couple 
of years since they have provided several help updates outside the release 
of Delphi editions.

Yes, the help needs further improvement, but focusing on fixing what's there 
at the expense of not documenting the new stuff coming down the pipe would 
not serve anyone's rational interests, so that will obviously be their 
priority. Fixing existing issues *must* always be second.

The roadmap *may* be indicating that there is work going on to provide a 
*major* re-org of the help, perhaps in some different format. If so, then of 
course that is going to take time, hence placing it as an item on the 
roadmap.

-- 
Wayne Niddery (TeamB)

"Giuliano ." <bidoneaspiratutto@live.it> wrote in message 
news:241849@forums.embarcadero.com...
> Il Wed, 12 May 2010 00:57:10 -0700, Luigi Sandon <> ha scritto:
>
>>> despise - if not hates - us, as we are victims of constant media 
>>> attacks.
>>
>>Maybe because like many micro-states it took advantage of its situation to 
>>help evasion,


Please take this to off-topic.

-- 
Wayne Niddery (TeamB)

Il Wed, 12 May 2010 05:49:53 -0700, Luigi Sandon <> ha scritto:

>> is only at the 36% and *all the citizens* pay the taxes? Maybe because in my country 
>
>When you're small, very small, and get money form abroad you can afford it. You have almost nothing to build an mantain. I guess Italy should ask a fee everytime you get out of your state.

Yes, small but great.

I'm wondering why are you hiding behind an economic uneasy, which was primarily caused by
you, by yours wrong economic policies for the last 50 years (and which has also affected
us), to hide your jealousy towards us?
Why do you want to destroy us? Which is the mental illness, the brain disease that houses
your mind?
Have not been sufficient the concentration camps or the fascist massacres perpetrated in
the last century from italians to quench yours thirst for blood? You want to do ethnic
cleansing of us? Are you trying to return at things like these (
http://tinyurl.com/ebravitagliani )? Have I to remember you all the "porcate" that you
have done during the colonialism in Oriental Africa? Or have I to refresh the your
consciousness about the invasion of  Jugoslavia where italian soldiers have committed
tremendous atrocities?
And, we have to take moral lessons from you? You who have contributed to drag the whole of
Europe toward an untold suffering and eternal shame?
Lessons from your economic minister (Giulio Tremonti) which while was a mere consultant
for our economic ministry, he owned many offshore company in the Cayman Islands in order
to evade taxes in many countries including Italy too? (1994)
Or maybe lessons from your prime minister that owns three television networks and controls
two of three national television networks? And instead of legislating for the people, he
spends his time to defend from judges and to blame us? 
Your government uses us as a screen to hide his cultural and technical deficiencies. It
uses television networks and newspapers in order to put the smoke in the eyes of his
citizens, that blame us instead of hang their oppressors. But, alas, in a true democracy,
in the government, as we know, there's the sample, the representative part, of his people.
By the way, italy is not new to covert operations behind the scenes, to subvert the will
of the people. Fact as Golpe Borghese, on the (not so far)  9/7/1970 (
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golpe_Borghese ), or the so called "stragi di stato" (state
which kills his own citizens) that has supported the well known "strategy of tension",
used for years to distract italians from the real problems of their state. Have a look at
the cronology of these massacres, even in time of peace, from 1942 until now
(http://www.strano.net/stragi/stragi/crono/indcro.htm).
So, on your honest opinion, we are the banana's republic? As far as I can see, you are a
far much more uncivilized of us. 
I would like to suggest to you and yours fellow citizens, to go to study a bit of your
history, as you are ignorant of your past.
There wouldn't be any kind of "italy", if a my direct ancestors wouldn't guided behind the
enemy lines the so-called, 'hero of the two worlds", Giuseppe Garibaldi; behind three, not
one, three armies, to reach and set free the whole peninsula. Tiè, fatti una cultura una
volta tanto: http://www.zani-sm.com/nicolazani/nicolaza.htm.
In the recent past, we hosted one hundred thousand Italians refugees during World War II.
We have fed him for two long years, with our precious foodstuffs. We have healed all the
injured persons and yours sick fellow citizens, asking back nothing, and only because they
arrived in our country. The Swiss people, even if they have done so much for giving asylum
to those persecuted, have hosted "only" five hundred thousand persons; even if the Swiss
folks were much more, than refugees that had upheld. If the Italian's descendency around
my country still exists, is mostly a merit of my compatriots of that epoch. My grandfather
- who I never knew - died of typhus caused by the degenerated hygienic conditions due to
the increased population, which has augmented of an order of magnitude (ten times, if you
had not understood).
Someone could think that we are only a of land for the tourism. Will hurt "someone" to
know that we have excellences in many technology fields and sciences. Among a lot of
industries that are world leader in their respective fields, we have some "head" that was
close to win the Nobel Prize for Theoric Physics, i.e. the Professor Luciano Maiani,
president of the italian's National Centre of Research (CNR); See also
http://www.cnr.it/sitocnr/Englishversion/CNR/Organization/President.html.
We can't take any moral lessons from a country that has destroyed, invaded and actively
participated as aggressor in many wars during last 150 years; had exported things like
"Camorra" (i.e. the Mafia of the Campania) as other Mafias types in all the world.

Nothing to add for now...

Il Wed, 12 May 2010 05:57:16 -0700, Wayne Niddery <wniddery@chaffrogers.com> ha scritto:

>"Giuliano ." <bidoneaspiratutto@live.it> wrote in message 
>news:241849@forums.embarcadero.com...
>> Il Wed, 12 May 2010 00:57:10 -0700, Luigi Sandon <> ha scritto:
>>
>>>> despise - if not hates - us, as we are victims of constant media 
>>>> attacks.
>>>
>>>Maybe because like many micro-states it took advantage of its situation to 
>>>help evasion,
>
>
>Please take this to off-topic.

You are right. But I'm tired of all these stereotyped racist attacks from ignorant people.
However I'm not linked to off-topic as is a waste of time for me. So I truncate, from my
part, this thread to honour the group rules.

Sorry.

Regards.

Giuliano

> {quote:title=Steve Thackery wrote:}{quote}
> "Dalija Prasnikar" wrote in message news:241841@forums.embarcadero.com...
> 
> > I agree with you that documentation could and should be better, but
> > if I have to choose between new features and documentation, I'll
> > vote for new features.
> 
> But that should never be a choice!  Can you not see how unreasonable it is 
> for a supplier to say "What do you want - more features or better 
> documentation?"
> 
> Why is it unreasonable? Because of that nasty little "or" in there. 
> Features and documentation are NOT separate, competing features.  They are 
> BOTH EQUAL COMPONENTS of the product.  They are not appropriate for an "or" 
> statement!.  The insertion of the "logical or" is unreasonable and provides 
> the supplier with the following fabulous excuses:
> 
> "We can't provide a 64-bit compiler if you lot want us to polish the 
> documentation."  Or....
> 
> "We can't polish the documentation if you lot want a 64-bit compiler."
> 

Whether you like it or not, new features are what sells the product and not
the documentation. Just like Delphi is constant work in progress and 
improves with each new release (with some exceptions), the documentation
is also work in progress, and will get better and better. What I wanted to say is
that I would rather have some new feature introduced, even if documentation for
that feature is not superb. I know that not everyone will agree with me, but Delphi
2010 has good documentation. Maybe it is not always easy to find what you're 
looking for, and not every topic is completely covered, but comparing it with
Delphi 7 it has so much more information. 

> If you want any credibility in the marketplace, you'd better do both.  If 
> you can't, then maybe you should take up something else, like selling ice 
> creams, or something.
> 

I sure hope that Embarcadero will continue to produce development tools
rather than ice cream :) 

Dalija Prasnikar

> {quote:title=Wayne Niddery wrote:}{quote}
> "Edmund Wong" <ed@kdtc.net> wrote in message 
> news:241812@forums.embarcadero.com...
> >
> > You mean to tell me that developers don't need better documentation?
> > I think a lot of developers have given feedback stating that
> > the current documentation, while improved over the BDS2006 days,
> > is still lacking compared to D7.
> 
> In reading the roadmap, do you somehow think they are not going to be doing 
> *any* work on the documentation between now and then?? That is a rather 
> absurd leap of logic - they have a documentation team, so I don't think they 
> are going to pay them to twiddle their thumbs for any length of time. They 
> are *continuously* working to keep the docs up to date and keep improving 
> them as much as possible. The evidence is pretty clear over the last couple 
> of years since they have provided several help updates outside the release 
> of Delphi editions.
> 
> Yes, the help needs further improvement, but focusing on fixing what's there 
> at the expense of not documenting the new stuff coming down the pipe would 
> not serve anyone's rational interests, so that will obviously be their 
> priority. Fixing existing issues *must* always be second.
> 
> The roadmap *may* be indicating that there is work going on to provide a 
> *major* re-org of the help, perhaps in some different format. If so, then of 
> course that is going to take time, hence placing it as an item on the 
> roadmap.
> 

Well said.

Dalija Prasnikar

> {quote:title=Luigi Sandon wrote:}{quote}
> > if I have to choose between new features and documentation, I'll
> 
> You will be never able to use complex new features if the documentation is scanty. And pieces collected here and there in forums or the like would help very little.

It is not that I don't want or need good documentation, just that I can
live without it, if needed.

Product documentation is something that I mostly use as reference.
And I have learned from Peter Below's posts a zillion times more that 
I could have ever learned from any documentation that came with Delphi.
Not because Delphi documentation was bad, but because it is difficult to 
include all tips and tricks in it.

Dalija Prasnikar

Edited by: Dalija Prasnikar on May 12, 2010 9:02 AM

Wayne Niddery wrote:

> My mail just gets returned with no such address. <g>

LOL!

-- 
John Kaster http://blogs.embarcadero.com/johnk
Embarcadero Developer Network: http://edn.embarcadero.com
Features and bugs: http://qc.embarcadero.com
Got source?  http://cc.embarcadero.com

"Mason Wheeler" wrote in message news:241899@forums.embarcadero.com...
> Wouldn't that be a logical xor?

Yes!  Spot on!

SteveT

Brandon Staggs wrote:

> "Rick Carter" wrote on Mon, 10 May 2010 23:05:28 -0700:
> 
> That's where I am.  I don't see much on this roadmap "for me," but
> Delphi is a vital part of my business tool chest, and it would be
> utterly foolish for me not to continue with SA, especially considering
> what an absolute winner Delphi 2010 turned out to be.
> 
> One good productivity improvement in the IDE can pay for SA.  That
> keeps it in perspective for me.

+1

Joachim

Wayne Niddery wrote:

> My mail just gets returned with no such address. <g>

Did you include the mandatory beer attachment? Forgetting that is a
common newbie mistake.

-- 
Cheers,
David Clegg
dclegg@gmail.com
http://cc.embarcadero.com/Author/72299

QualityCentral. The best way to bug Embarcadero about bugs.
http://qc.embarcadero.com

Hello,

the thing with it is only that you shouldn't come later on if plans of
EMBT didn't work out as expected and then whine "but you told so and so...".

Greetings

Markus

Hello,

oh, you're from San Marino. I knew it existed and even have two or so
stamps from it. But otherwise I don't know much about it. You also have
the euro, haven't you? Everything else would not be convenient, would
it? Except having your own government and so is there anything
remarkably different to the rest of Italy?

Greetings

Markus

Hello,

as I've read some negative posts about VS2010's new help already I hope
they don't use that new engine. Instead of creating a whole new engine
MS should better have invested the time in improving the current one.
(we could have profited as well ;-))

Greetings

Markus

"David Clegg" <dclegg@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:241984@forums.embarcadero.com...
>
> Did you include the mandatory beer attachment? Forgetting that is a
> common newbie mistake.


That would be a Foster's, right? <gd&r>

-- 
Wayne Niddery (TeamB)

Wayne Niddery wrote:

> That would be a Foster's, right? <gd&r>

<thwack!>

-- 
Cheers,
David Clegg
dclegg@gmail.com
http://cc.embarcadero.com/Author/72299

QualityCentral. The best way to bug Embarcadero about bugs.
http://qc.embarcadero.com

Wayne Niddery wrote:

> That would be a Foster's, right? <gd&r>

Fosters is to Australia as Budweiser is to the USA.

Interesting, I've found this to be true as well:

Budweiser is to Australia as Fosters is to the USA

David Clegg wrote:

> <thwack!>

For the record, my favorite beer in the whole world is Coopers Ale.

Nick Hodges
Delphi Development Manager
Embarcadero

Markus Humm wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> the thing with it is only that you shouldn't come later on if plans of
> EMBT didn't work out as expected and then whine "but you told so and
> so...".
> 
> Greetings
> 
> Markus

LOL.

My plans are never more than 8 months ahead. This way I am fearly
confindent that they are spot on.

"Nick Hodges" <nick.hodges@embarcadero.com> wrote in message 
news:242051@forums.embarcadero.com...
>
> Fosters is to Australia as Budweiser is to the USA.

And as most American-brewed beer is to Canada. <g>

-- 
Wayne Niddery (TeamB)

Rick Carter wrote:

> 
> You may want to rethink that, Bob. As you know, Delphi 2010 was just
> an "interim release," yet most people who are using it are agreed
> that it's "the best Delphi ever." If the Delphi team continues with
> improvements to the VCL, IDE, and RTL in every new release, that
> alone is enough to make me want to continue with SA, even if the
> major touted feature in a new release doesn't interest me that much.

Very very true.  I have never been disappointed with the "next" Delphi
release, and 2010 is my favorite so far. I will be looking into this in
detail and will not do this lightly if at all.  In fact, we are unable
to keep up with Delphi at the moment and have not even finished
converting to 2010 yet.

I guess, what is easy to lose site of when looking at a roadmap, is all
the "other stuff" (maintenance, performance etc) that will be in the
release as well that never are roadmap worthy.

Bob Fisher wrote:

> 
> Very very true.  I have never been disappointed with the "next" Delphi
> release...


Never? How about Delphi 8 or 2005 ? ;o)

And nothing about mobile support....

IMHO Embarcadero is missing very important emerging platform - rich mobile. Now iPhone OS and Android are already true rich platforms for business applications. 
IMHO the best tool for them should be HTML/JS based with interface to Delphi/Win/Linux server-side application (if needed). Such a tool is not Delphi, as well as "Delphi for PHP" is not. It should be GUI creation tool for HTML/JavaScript with support for access to some mobile device internals and server back-end (DataSnap based?).

My use case here;

I've just bought an Android phone for my wife who do some field-sales. She has my desktop (Delphi) application keeping customer list, sales events, etc. Now the phone is enough to have it on-the-go instead of netbook. Internal contact list, calendar are almost fine. But the real application would need a product list, additional data for calendar, contacts etc. Native Android application is not an option because many my wife's colleagues have iPhones as well. So the primary platform is WebKit browser. I've
 found Titanium (www.appcelerator.com) and PhoneGap. Both allow to create local web applications (Titanium even can use native platform controls instead of pure HTML). But both lack GUI designers. So now I have a Delphi and SQL codebase, new target platform and no tool to address it.
And don't suggest Delphi for PHP - my application should manage to run standalone - without Internet connection at all.

IMHO, the HTML/JS (not server-side HTML) becomes a very important platform for business applications front-ends. And the tool market for it is almost empty. 

Maxim Shiryaev

Edited by: Maxim Shiryaev on May 12, 2010 11:57 PM

Nick,

> For the record, my favorite beer in the whole world is Coopers Ale.

You must taste Detmolder wheat beer. Please, ask Q about it. I'm sure 
that you will never mention your Coopers Ale again.

-- 
Roman

Maxim,

> And nothing about mobile support....
>
> IMHO Embarcadero is missing very important emerging platform - rich mobile. Now iPhone OS and Android are already true rich platforms for business applications.
> IMHO the best tool for them should be HTML/JS based with interface to Delphi/Win/Linux server-side application (if needed). Such a tool is not Delphi, as well as "Delphi for PHP" is not. It should be GUI creation tool for HTML/JavaScript with support for access to some mobile device internals and server back-end (DataSnap based?).

Please have a look t ExtPascal. Phil Hess has written some fantastice 
demos for the iPhone and other platforms.

-- 
Roman

Zenon,

>> Very very true.  I have never been disappointed with the "next" Delphi
>> release...
>
>
> Never? How about Delphi 8 or 2005 ? ;o)

D2005 was not so bad. I really worked with it. Okay, D2006 and D2007 
were much more better but D8 was of course worse.

-- 
Roman

> {quote:title=David Clegg wrote:}{quote}
> Wayne Niddery wrote:
> 
> > My mail just gets returned with no such address. <g>
> 
> Did you include the mandatory beer attachment? Forgetting that is a
> common newbie mistake.

Wayne,
Maybe you would get better results with mail addressed to "Surly and Demanding David Clegg." ;)
--
Rick Carter
Chair, Delphi/Paradox SIG, Cincinnati PC Users Group

Rick Carter wrote:

> Maybe you would get better results with mail addressed to "Surly and
> Demanding David Clegg." ;)

Hey! I resemble that remark!

-- 
Cheers,
David Clegg
dclegg@gmail.com
http://cc.embarcadero.com/Author/72299

QualityCentral. The best way to bug Embarcadero about bugs.
http://qc.embarcadero.com

> {quote:title=Zenon Jordan wrote:}{quote}
> Bob Fisher wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Very very true.  I have never been disappointed with the "next" Delphi
> > release...
> 
> Never? How about Delphi 8 or 2005 ? ;o)

Unpatched Delphi 4 was the only release that I found unusable.  It was much better after a couple of updates.

--
Regards
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software

> > Fulcrum = RAD 2011 = Fall 2010
> > Wheelhouse = RAD 2012 = Fall 2011
> > Commodore = RAD 2013 = Fall 2012
> > 
> > Is that incorrect?
> 
> If that is the case then I am done with Delphi and will not be creating any new applications with it.  While this post is to a certain extent emotional, it's becoming almost >impossible to continue to use Delphi when it lags so far behind the Windows releases.  That would put Windows 64 bit support more than 2 years away with a lot of time after >that before it stabilises.

One thing is sure: here we will skip Fulcrum and Wheelhouse. About new applications: Is getting hard to "sell" Delphi to create server side, multi-tier database applications, when ALL NEW SERVERS are 64 bits.

Wayne Niddery wrote:
> "Nick Hodges" <nick.hodges@embarcadero.com> wrote in message 
> news:242051@forums.embarcadero.com...
>> Fosters is to Australia as Budweiser is to the USA.
> 
> And as most American-brewed beer is to Canada. <g>
> 

All this beer-talk reminds me that when the warm weather returns to 
Norway, it might be time for a creamy Bokk-beer (mabe Aass, Ringnes or 
Arendal) and ice cream :-) A pity that Bokk and Export is only sold at 
the Wine monopole in Norway, together with wine and liquors. I really 
miss that beer)

>> It's the most amazing thing to me that such great software is
>> written in a language that reads even worse to me than C++....
> Objective-C.  Because someone, somewhere, woke up one day
> and said, "Hey, we need a new language that combines the code
> readability of C with the performance of Smalltalk."
LOL!

But in actuality, I think there are some great ideas in ObjC, it's just
the syntax is horrible (IMO).

-- 
Regards,
Michael Baytalsky
Context Software LLC.
http://www.contextsoft.com
the makers of Context Database Designer

Roman Kassebaum wrote:

> You must taste Detmolder wheat beer. Please, ask Q about it. I'm sure 
> that you will never mention your Coopers Ale again.

I generally don't like wheat beers.

-- 
Nick Hodges
Delphi Development Manager
Embarcadero

Nick,

> I generally don't like wheat beers.

Really? Have you ever tasted the German one?
If not then I will send you a bottle or two.

-- 
Roman

Does anyone else find it odd that so many professional computer programmers whose brains are their livelihood are sitting around comparing substances known to adversely affect the functionality of the brain over both the short term and the long term? :P

> Product documentation is something that I mostly use as reference.

No, especially if they introduce a new technology. Datasnap, for example. If you don't understand the architecture, how pieces fits together, what's the way you should use it you just spend a lot of trials and errors time to understand how to exploit it. Nor examples nor souce code will help, nor pieces gathered here and there on the Internet. Many of the Delphi developers I hired were often not aware of many advanced features. Why? Lack of documentation.

> include all tips and tricks in it.

Tips and tricks are not documentation. But a clear description of how things are designed and supposed to work are.

> {quote:title=Luigi Sandon wrote:}{quote}
> > Product documentation is something that I mostly use as reference.
> 
> No, especially if they introduce a new technology. Datasnap, for example. If you don't understand the architecture, how pieces fits together, what's the way you should use it you just spend a lot of trials and errors time to understand how to exploit it. Nor examples nor souce code will help, nor pieces gathered here and there on the Internet. Many of the Delphi developers I hired were often not aware of many advanced features. Why? Lack of documentation.
> 
> > include all tips and tricks in it.
> 
> Tips and tricks are not documentation. But a clear description of how things are designed and supposed to work are.

I don't remember the last time I have read such documentation that explains in detail
how things work (maybe back in the Turbo Pascal era). But even then I have fully
understand how to use some features after I have read some other more advanced
books on the subject. 

And once again, I am not against good documentation, just that it is very low on
my priority list. I am certainly not making purchase decision based on how good
Delphi documenation is.

Dalija Prasnikar

> {quote:title=Maxim Shiryaev wrote:}{quote}
> And nothing about mobile support....
> 
> IMHO Embarcadero is missing very important emerging platform - rich mobile. Now iPhone OS and Android are already true rich platforms for business applications. 
> IMHO the best tool for them should be HTML/JS based with interface to Delphi/Win/Linux server-side application (if needed). Such a tool is not Delphi, as well as "Delphi for PHP" is not. It should be GUI creation tool for HTML/JavaScript with support for access to some mobile device internals and server back-end (DataSnap based?).
> 
> My use case here;
> 
> I've just bought an Android phone for my wife who do some field-sales. She has my desktop (Delphi) application keeping customer list, sales events, etc. Now the phone is enough to have it on-the-go instead of netbook. Internal contact list, calendar are almost fine. But the real application would need a product list, additional data for calendar, contacts etc. Native Android application is not an option because many my wife's colleagues have iPhones as well. So the primary platform is WebKit browser. I'
ve found Titanium (www.appcelerator.com) and PhoneGap. Both allow to create local web applications (Titanium even can use native platform controls instead of pure HTML). But both lack GUI designers. So now I have a Delphi and SQL codebase, new target platform and no tool to address it.
> And don't suggest Delphi for PHP - my application should manage to run standalone - without Internet connection at all.
> 
> IMHO, the HTML/JS (not server-side HTML) becomes a very important platform for business applications front-ends. And the tool market for it is almost empty. 


Yes, you've identified an important emerging market for development, both on the mobile side and on the desktop or server side that is paired with the mobile device.

Here's how something like PhoneGap works on iPhone OS (includes iPod and iPad devices): Using Apple's Xcode and Interface Builder, you create a small Objective C app that uses the CocoaTouch UIWebView control. UIWebView is to WebKit as Delphi's TWebBrowser is to IE. The mobile "application" itself is a bunch of HTML and JavaScript files that are run in the app's embedded browser control. Not a bad idea, actually, although it still has the same issue with deployment and updating as any iPhone app since it 
is a native ObjC app.

I would not discount running a Web app in Mobile Safari. The main app then runs on the server. This eliminates deployment and update problems and should be easier to adapt to multiple mobile browsers, even browsers that are not based on Apple's WebKit. It also allows you to use your current Delphi code, tools and skills.

For example, ExtPascal can be adapted to mobile browsers:

http://code.google.com/p/extpascal/

A simple ExtPascal Web app that adapts to the iPhone small screen is here, along with a video that demos it:

http://web.me.com/macpgmr/ExtPascal/

Thanks.

-Phil

Bruce McGee wrote:

> 
> Unpatched Delphi 4 was the only release that I found unusable.  It
> was much better after a couple of updates.


We are talking here about dissapointment not about usability. ;o)


Regards,
Zenon

> {quote:title=Zenon Jordan wrote:}{quote}
> Bruce McGee wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Unpatched Delphi 4 was the only release that I found unusable.  It
> > was much better after a couple of updates.
> 
> 
> We are talking here about dissapointment not about usability. ;o)

I was pretty disappointed in the lack of usability and stability in Delphi 4 when it was first released.  

I used every other release in production projects with few problems or disappointments.

--
Regards
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software

Zenon Jordan wrote:

> Bob Fisher wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Very very true.  I have never been disappointed with the "next"
> > Delphi release...
> 
> 
> Never? How about Delphi 8 or 2005 ? ;o)

uh, well, you got me there.  2005 was fine for me. I actually liked it.
It did have issues.  Slowness was the main one.  I didnt have to use
that version in production tho.  v8 I really never used.  It sat on the
shelf.  But all the others were used and enjoyed.

Luigi Sandon wrote:

> > Product documentation is something that I mostly use as reference.
> 
> No, especially if they introduce a new technology. Datasnap, for
> example. If you don't understand the architecture, how pieces fits
> together, what's the way you should use it you just spend a lot of
> trials and errors time to understand how to exploit it. Nor examples
> nor souce code will help, nor pieces gathered here and there on the
> Internet. Many of the Delphi developers I hired were often not aware
> of many advanced features. Why? Lack of documentation.
> 
> > include all tips and tricks in it.
> 
> Tips and tricks are not documentation. But a clear description of how
> things are designed and supposed to work are.

Good documentation is a plus.  But for me, good example programs
showing the major features of a technology are very useful for starting
out. It gives you a base to start with that works.  Rather than trying
to start from scratch and figure out how all the pieces fit together.

I do wish EMB spent more time and created more example apps.  They
really can be all that hard (for them).

Bob Fisher wrote:

> It gives you a base to start with that works.  Rather
> than trying to start from scratch and figure out how all the pieces
> fit together.

But that can also be a curse, especially if the example program uses
multiple design-time classes which require many properties to be
tweaked in order to provide the functionality, and not much actual code
was written in order to piece it all together.

-- 
Cheers,
David Clegg
dclegg@gmail.com
http://cc.embarcadero.com/Author/72299

QualityCentral. The best way to bug Embarcadero about bugs.
http://qc.embarcadero.com

Bob Fisher wrote:

> I do wish EMB spent more time and created more example apps

FWIW, that was the original reason for CodeCentral, when I wrote the
first version way back in the previous millenium. Documentation team
leaders changed, and the original intention was never taken advantage
of.

-- 
John Kaster http://blogs.embarcadero.com/johnk
Embarcadero Developer Network: http://edn.embarcadero.com
Features and bugs: http://qc.embarcadero.com
Got source?  http://cc.embarcadero.com

Nice to see.. Missing one big part though, that I feel is being neglected 
again. And that is quality.

There should be a higher focus on quality, there is still a lot of bugs in 
the IDE. The main and most important is that Code Completion is extremely 
unstable in 2010. Coding without code completion is like coding in notepad. 
It should be of high priority to fix this area.

-Atle

>  But I'm tired of all these stereotyped racist attacks from ignorant people.

I think you showed enough of your stereotyped, ill-mannered, ignorant, racist attacks. You're not different from the many sectionalisms that are multiplying in Italy and Europe - each full of rage and arrogance.

"Atle Smelvaer" <atle@nospam.datagrafikk.no> wrote in message 
news:242539@forums.embarcadero.com...
> Nice to see.. Missing one big part though, that I feel is being neglected 
> again. And that is quality.
>
> There should be a higher focus on quality, there is still a lot of bugs in 
> the IDE.

I agree.  I would have like to see more emphasis on that in the road map.

SteveT

On 13.05.2010 22:22, Mason Wheeler wrote:
> Does anyone else find it odd that so many professional computer programmers whose brains are their livelihood are sitting around comparing substances known to adversely affect the functionality of the brain over both the short term and the long term? :P

Also thinking constantly without relaxing at all is even more brain 
damaging.

So, a break now and then with a good beer is most possibly ok.

> I don't remember the last time I have read such documentation that explains in detail

I did till Delphi 7. Then printed documentation was removed and all the issue we are still experienced began.

> understand how to use some features after I have read some other more advanced
> books on the subject. 

I never saw any book explaining the language in depth as the Language Guide did. And there was never many advanced books on advanced topics. Most Delphi books were novice/middle level, and rarely touched advanced topics. Try to find a good book about DCOM and Datasnap, for example. Or OTA. Or even about many of the less documented design and features of the VCL. Something changed later, for example when Cantù books became about new features instead of trying to be books about the whole product.
 
> my priority list. I am certainly not making purchase decision based on how good
> Delphi documenation is.

You may end up to pay for features you don't use because they are not documented enough.

Dean Hill wrote:

> I am personally not happy. Looking at the roadmap, 64 bit is now
> going to be ready at launch for Windows, Mac and Linux apps.  That,
> IMHO, delays it further than it would be if it only needed to be
> ready for Windows.

I doubt it. They will have the new front-end/back-end technology, and
already have code generators for these platforms. They can work on
making these 64 bit in parallel.
-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)        http://www.teamb.com

"You get what anyone gets; you get a lifetime."
 -- Death, Neil Gaiman Comic Sandman

Atle Smelvaer wrote:

> Nice to see.. Missing one big part though, that I feel is being
> neglected again. And that is quality.
> 
> There should be a higher focus on quality, there is still a lot of
> bugs in the IDE.

There seems to be a high focus on quality. Of course there are still
bugs (and new features will probably produce new ones), but AFAICS,
speed and quality have greatly improved with each new release,
especially since Delphi 2007 and Delphi 2009.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)        http://www.teamb.com

"Don't drive me crazy -- it's within walking distance."

Atle Smelvaer wrote:

> There should be a higher focus on quality, there is still a lot of
> bugs in the IDE. The main and most important is that Code Completion
> is extremely unstable in 2010. Coding without code completion is like
> coding in notepad. It should be of high priority to fix this area.

We have had, and do have, a high focus on quality.

We all use CodeCompletion in the IDE every day.  We don't see
instabilities at all.  Can you expand more on what you mean by
"extremely unstable"?

-- 
Nick Hodges
Delphi Development Manager
Embarcadero

Michael Baytalsky wrote:

> Joanna,
> 
> > It might work for me, but you'd have to substitute Objective-C for
> > Pascal ;-)
> I can't wrap my head around Objective C, I don't know how you
> [gals understand: this] syntax... Is there a drug or a weed
> that helps you do that [relax your brain and start accepting
> square brackets]?

Huh? I think it is a very natural syntax (coming from Smalltalk,
actually). Instead of

  bla.LoadFromFile('Bla.txt', ofShareDenyNone or ofOpenRead);

you specify:

  [bla loadFromFile: 'Bla.txt' usingMode: (shareDenyNone | openRead)]

It is more verbose, and the above can probably be simplified, but that
is how it works. The name of the method is
 
  loadFromFile:usingMode:

Syntax is not the problem. Some of the not-so-common concepts are.
-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)        http://www.teamb.com

"I must confess, I was born at a very early age."
 -- Groucho Marx

Ralf Stocker wrote:

> Who wants all these features and projects??? Folks are waiting for 64 
> bit support. 

Well, some folks are, indeed.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)        http://www.teamb.com

"Insanity in individuals is something rare; but in groups,
 parties, nations, and epochs it is the rule."
 -- Nietzsche

Nick Hodges wrote:

> Atle Smelvaer wrote:
> 
> > There should be a higher focus on quality, there is still a lot of
> > bugs in the IDE. The main and most important is that Code Completion
> > is extremely unstable in 2010. Coding without code completion is
> > like coding in notepad. It should be of high priority to fix this
> > area.
> 
> We have had, and do have, a high focus on quality.
> 
> We all use CodeCompletion in the IDE every day.  We don't see
> instabilities at all.  Can you expand more on what you mean by
> "extremely unstable"?

I guess this is related to his report QC 84202, but with the dependency
to DevEx there is no chance to look at it for me.

Report No: 84202          Status: Reported
Code Completion just stops working on some projects
http://qc.embarcadero.com/wc/qcmain.aspx?d=84202
-- 
Uwe

> {quote:title=Nick Hodges wrote:}{quote}
> We all use CodeCompletion in the IDE every day.  We don't see
> instabilities at all.

You have +got+ to be kidding me.

You know I love Delphi as much as anyone here, and I love using Code Completion when it works, but Nick, the feature is a mess, even in D2010, and it's a little bit mind-boggling to see you say it isn't with a straight face.

I have some units in my project (including the main form) where it doesn't work at all.  You hit CTRL-Space and nothing happens.  That's fine.  I can live with that.  But the real wall banger is when it locks up the IDE.  There are some times, and it's hard for me to reproduce this reliably or I'd have sent a QC report, but there are some cases where pressing CTRL-Space throws the IDE into an infinite loop which paralyzes the main thread.  It pegs the CPU at 100% of one core and starts allocating memory a
t a rate of about 1-2 MB/sec.  If you've got enough patience, it will finally terminate when it reaches about 1.5 GB of allocated memory, but by this point the IDE has become unstable.  You might be able to save and quit, but you might not.

Are you saying you've never ever seen this bug?

Plus, having it run in the main thread at all when the operation takes a nontrivial amount of time to complete is just conceptually wrong.  The IDE is a text editor first and foremost.  A fancy, very advanced text editor with a bunch of productivity features bolted on, but it's a text editor, and a text editor should not block like that unless there's a modal dialog up to make it obvious that I'm blocked and I'm supposed to be blocked.

Le 14/05/10 19:07, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) a écrit :

> Huh? I think it is a very natural syntax (coming from Smalltalk,
> actually). Instead of
>
>    bla.LoadFromFile('Bla.txt', ofShareDenyNone or ofOpenRead);

Actually, taking a lead from some of the .NET x-platform libraries, you 
will find:

   bla.LoadFromFileUsingMode('Bla.txt', ofShareDenyNone or ofOpenRead);

But, as you say, the Objective-C syntax is easy to pick up; it's 
concepts like "sending messages" to objects rather than calling methods, 
and being able to send messages to nil objects without any runtime problems.

There are a couple of discussions, on this subject, in my own forums:

http://carterconsulting.org.uk/forums/viewforum.php?f=4

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [TeamB|http://www.teamb.com]
Consultant Software Engineer

Mason Wheeler wrote:

> You have +got+ to be kidding me.

No, I am not kidding you.


> Are you saying you've never ever seen this bug?

Yeah, I'm saying that. 

If you can show us how this happens, we'd love to see it.  


>   A fancy, very advanced text editor with a bunch of productivity
> features bolted on, but it's a text editor, and a text editor should
> not block like that unless there's a modal dialog up to make it
> obvious that I'm blocked and I'm supposed to be blocked.

That's exactly what it does.  All the "extra" stuff is not on the main
thread.

-- 
Nick Hodges
Delphi Development Manager
Embarcadero

Bob Fisher wrote:

> Good documentation is a plus.  But for me, good example programs
> showing the major features of a technology are very useful for
> starting out. It gives you a base to start with that works.  Rather
> than trying to start from scratch and figure out how all the pieces
> fit together.

I agree. A working example says more than 1000 explanations in the
manuel - or something like that ;-).

Doei RIF

> {quote:title=Nick Hodges wrote:}{quote}
> > Are you saying you've never ever seen this bug?
> Yeah, I'm saying that. 
> 
> If you can show us how this happens, we'd love to see it.  

If I can find a test case that will reproduce it consistently, I'll send it to you ASAP.

> >   A fancy, very advanced text editor with a bunch of productivity
> > features bolted on, but it's a text editor, and a text editor should
> > not block like that unless there's a modal dialog up to make it
> > obvious that I'm blocked and I'm supposed to be blocked.
> 
> That's exactly what it does.  All the "extra" stuff is not on the main
> thread.

....all right, now I'm starting to wonder if you and I are talking about the same feature.  Because it most definitely does block the main thread when I hit CTRL-Space.  The IDE goes off somewhere to build its data table in memory, and until it's done, I can't type and I can't click.  The entire program becomes unresponsive, and if I enter enough clicks or keystrokes under Windows 7, it becomes +officially+ unresponsive, with the client area ghosted white and a "(Not Responding)" in the window's caption. 
 And AFAIK that means that Application.ProcessMessages is not being called on the main thread.  This happens both on my personal system and on all my D2010 installs at work, both directly on the hardware and in VMs.

"Mason Wheeler" wrote in message news:242850@forums.embarcadero.com...

>>
The IDE goes off somewhere to build its data table in memory, and until it's 
done, I can't type and I can't click.  The entire program becomes 
unresponsive, and if I enter enough clicks or keystrokes under Windows 7, it 
becomes +officially+ unresponsive, with the client area ghosted white and a 
"(Not Responding)" in the window's caption.
<<

Ah, yes!  I've not noticed it before, but I've just opened a 
small-to-middling project, typed the first three letters of a variable name, 
and then hit Ctrl+space.

The disk started grunting and - while it was grunting - my key strokes 
definitely did not appear in the editor.  As soon as the disk stopped, the 
buffered keystrokes appeared.

So, Nick: something is definitely blocking the main thread.  Or seems to be.

HOWEVER, it only does it once in my project (no disk accesses after 
subsequent Ctrl+space presses), and in my little project the "freeze" only 
lasted a couple of seconds, maybe.

So, it isn't a problem for me, but there does seem to be something behind 
what Mason says.

SteveT

> {quote:title=Steve Thackery wrote:}{quote}
> "Mason Wheeler" wrote in message news:242850@forums.embarcadero.com...
> 
> >>
> The IDE goes off somewhere to build its data table in memory, and until it's 
> done, I can't type and I can't click.  The entire program becomes 
> unresponsive, and if I enter enough clicks or keystrokes under Windows 7, it 
> becomes +officially+ unresponsive, with the client area ghosted white and a 
> "(Not Responding)" in the window's caption.
> <<
> 
> Ah, yes!  I've not noticed it before, but I've just opened a 
> small-to-middling project, typed the first three letters of a variable name, 
> and then hit Ctrl+space.
> 
> The disk started grunting and - while it was grunting - my key strokes 
> definitely did not appear in the editor.  As soon as the disk stopped, the 
> buffered keystrokes appeared.
> 
> So, Nick: something is definitely blocking the main thread.  Or seems to be.
> 
> HOWEVER, it only does it once in my project (no disk accesses after 
> subsequent Ctrl+space presses), and in my little project the "freeze" only 
> lasted a couple of seconds, maybe.
> 
> So, it isn't a problem for me, but there does seem to be something behind 
> what Mason says.

Yeah, you don't really notice it in small projects.  But the one I've got at work weighs in at around 4 MLoc.  The "freeze" can be 30 seconds or more sometimes, and it doesn't only happen once.

Mason Wheeler wrote:
 
> ...all right, now I'm starting to wonder if you and I are talking
> about the same feature.  Because it most definitely does block the
> main thread when I hit CTRL-Space. 

I stand corrected -- CodeCompletion does run on the main thread.

But I will also say that if you are seeing serious delays like that,
then we'd like to know about it.  When you are here for Delphi Live,
please find me and I'll see about getting someone to look at it.

-- 
Nick Hodges
Delphi Development Manager
Embarcadero

> {quote:title=Nick Hodges wrote:}{quote}
> Mason Wheeler wrote:
>  
> > ...all right, now I'm starting to wonder if you and I are talking
> > about the same feature.  Because it most definitely does block the
> > main thread when I hit CTRL-Space. 
> 
> I stand corrected -- CodeCompletion does run on the main thread.
> 
> But I will also say that if you are seeing serious delays like that,
> then we'd like to know about it.  When you are here for Delphi Live,
> please find me and I'll see about getting someone to look at it.

Sure, though it's most noticeable on really large projects like the one at work.  Jim told me once that WideOrbit has its own Embarcadero rep.  Maybe you could get him to look at this?  It could get you some data a lot faster than waiting for the end of August...

Mason Wheeler wrote:

> Jim told me once that WideOrbit has its own Embarcadero rep.  Maybe
> you could get him to look at this?  It could get you some data a lot
> faster than waiting for the end of August...

I'm not sure who that rep would be, but we can get a Live Meeting going
to take a look.

Send me an email.

-- 
Nick Hodges
Delphi Development Manager
Embarcadero

On Fri, 14 May 2010 10:57:26 -0700, Nick Hodges
<nick.hodges@embarcadero.com> wrote:

>Atle Smelvaer wrote:
>
>> There should be a higher focus on quality, there is still a lot of
>> bugs in the IDE. The main and most important is that Code Completion
>> is extremely unstable in 2010. Coding without code completion is like
>> coding in notepad. It should be of high priority to fix this area.
>
>We have had, and do have, a high focus on quality.
>
>We all use CodeCompletion in the IDE every day.  We don't see
>instabilities at all.  Can you expand more on what you mean by
>"extremely unstable"?

One case I don't recall the details on now:  The true compiler could
find a file that the code completion compiler couldn't.  Of course
this meant that anything that came from that file was an error.  It's
been a while since I worked with Delphi so I'm not recalling it for
sure.  A look at the .dpr of a project that plagued me with them shows
a bunch of lines bringing in units the .dpr has no need of and which
wouldn't have been auto-added.

That makes me suspect a unit that doesn't show in the .dpr is being
missed by code completion.

On Fri, 14 May 2010 11:17:43 -0700, Mason Wheeler <> wrote:

>Plus, having it run in the main thread at all when the operation takes a nontrivial amount of time to complete is just conceptually wrong.  The IDE is a text editor first and foremost.  A fancy, very advanced text editor with a bunch of productivity features bolted on, but it's a text editor, and a text editor should not block like that unless there's a modal dialog up to make it obvious that I'm blocked and I'm supposed to be blocked.

I don't think it runs in the context of the main thread, but that the
main thread blocks if it tries to call up anything from code
completion and it's not there.

It's still a bad design and it's been there for ages.

On Fri, 14 May 2010 14:58:40 -0700, Steve Thackery
<nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

>Ah, yes!  I've not noticed it before, but I've just opened a 
>small-to-middling project, typed the first three letters of a variable name, 
>and then hit Ctrl+space.
>
>The disk started grunting and - while it was grunting - my key strokes 
>definitely did not appear in the editor.  As soon as the disk stopped, the 
>buffered keystrokes appeared.
>
>So, Nick: something is definitely blocking the main thread.  Or seems to be.
>
>HOWEVER, it only does it once in my project (no disk accesses after 
>subsequent Ctrl+space presses), and in my little project the "freeze" only 
>lasted a couple of seconds, maybe.
>
>So, it isn't a problem for me, but there does seem to be something behind 
>what Mason says.

It all depends on how big the project is and how fast your system is.
A large project on a laptop and I've seen 10 seconds.  It's also not a
once-only thing, if you do something that invalidates a lot of stuff
(say, add an entry to a master file of constants or types.) the same
thing happens again.

On Fri, 14 May 2010 16:21:40 -0700, Nick Hodges
<nick.hodges@embarcadero.com> wrote:

>Mason Wheeler wrote:
> 
>> ...all right, now I'm starting to wonder if you and I are talking
>> about the same feature.  Because it most definitely does block the
>> main thread when I hit CTRL-Space. 
>
>I stand corrected -- CodeCompletion does run on the main thread.
>
>But I will also say that if you are seeing serious delays like that,
>then we'd like to know about it.  When you are here for Delphi Live,
>please find me and I'll see about getting someone to look at it.

It's purely a matter of size and system horsepower.  The compiler will
run until it's caught up and it's frozen until then.  It doesn't even
take a ctrl-space, code completion can be triggered by time in the
right syntax.

You'll never get a small test case to reproduce it because of this.

On 15.05.2010 00:09, Mason Wheeler wrote:
>> {quote:title=Steve Thackery wrote:}{quote}
>> "Mason Wheeler" wrote in message news:242850@forums.embarcadero.com...

>
> Yeah, you don't really notice it in small projects.  But the one I've got at work weighs in at around 4 MLoc.  The "freeze" can be 30 seconds or more sometimes, and it doesn't only happen once.

I see the same problem on a 200 kLoc project in D2006 too. Each time I 
start BDS and put the cursor on a line, it dies for 20-30 seconds and 
keeps completelty unresponsible.

So it is probably not new.

I can reproduce code completion problems any time you want.

So if you want to have a look at it just buzz me on 
atle@nospamremove.datagrafikk.no

Or try the testproject on QC 84202.

-Atle

> {quote:title=Alf Christophersen wrote:}{quote}
> On 15.05.2010 00:09, Mason Wheeler wrote:
> >> {quote:title=Steve Thackery wrote:}{quote}
> >> "Mason Wheeler" wrote in message news:242850@forums.embarcadero.com...
> 
> >
> > Yeah, you don't really notice it in small projects.  But the one I've got at work weighs in at around 4 MLoc.  The "freeze" can be 30 seconds or more sometimes, and it doesn't only happen once.
> 
> I see the same problem on a 200 kLoc project in D2006 too. Each time I 
> start BDS and put the cursor on a line, it dies for 20-30 seconds and 
> keeps completelty unresponsible.
> 
> So it is probably not new.

I know it's not new.  I'm just a little surprised it's still around, after all the other IDE quality improvements the team made in the last couple releases.

On Sat, 15 May 2010 12:36:53 -0700, Alf Christophersen
<alf.christophersen@medisin.uio.no> wrote:

>On 15.05.2010 00:09, Mason Wheeler wrote:
>>> {quote:title=Steve Thackery wrote:}{quote}
>>> "Mason Wheeler" wrote in message news:242850@forums.embarcadero.com...
>
>>
>> Yeah, you don't really notice it in small projects.  But the one I've got at work weighs in at around 4 MLoc.  The "freeze" can be 30 seconds or more sometimes, and it doesn't only happen once.
>
>I see the same problem on a 200 kLoc project in D2006 too. Each time I 
>start BDS and put the cursor on a line, it dies for 20-30 seconds and 
>keeps completelty unresponsible.
>
>So it is probably not new.

It's in Delphi 7.  I never ran big stuff on earlier versions so I
don't know if it was before then or not.

Zenon Jordan submitted this idea :
> Bob Fisher wrote:
>
>> 
>> Very very true.  I have never been disappointed with the "next" Delphi
>> release...
>
>
> Never? How about Delphi 8 or 2005 ? ;o)

I was perfectly happy with D8.

I bought it at a conference discount for the express
purpose of getting D7 with SA.
Worked out great.

D8 sat on the shelf of course, but it did everything I needed.

Brad.

-- 
To people who think about their lives, almost everything
that happens, or that they read, provides a way of learning.
To those who don't examine their lives, all the experience
of the ages is worthless.

> {quote:title=Luigi Sandon wrote:}{quote}
> > I don't remember the last time I have read such documentation that explains in detail
> 
> I did till Delphi 7. Then printed documentation was removed and all the issue we are still experienced began.
> 
> > understand how to use some features after I have read some other more advanced
> > books on the subject. 
> 
> I never saw any book explaining the language in depth as the Language Guide did. And there was never many advanced books on advanced topics. Most Delphi books were novice/middle level, and rarely touched advanced topics. Try to find a good book about DCOM and Datasnap, for example. Or OTA. Or even about many of the less documented design and features of the VCL. Something changed later, for example when Cantù books became about new features instead of trying to be books about the whole product.
>  

Indeed, Language Guide was very good, and I still use it today from time to time. But I use it only as
a book or in PDF form. Traying to read it in help files (even in Delphi 7) was pretty unusable unless
all you need is a quick reminder on stuff. You have Delphi Language Guide in 2010 help files, but I give
up on reading it. When I'm trying to familiarize myself with something new the last thing I need is constant 
jumping back and forth with some hyperlinks. My brain is not used to function that way. I NEED a proper book.

Marco Cantu's books are also very good and they focus on new stuff I wanted to learn. I think Delphi and 
Embarcadero could profit if they take Delphi Language Guide, combine it with Marco Cantu's books on 
Delphi 2009 and 2010, compile good PDF book from that and release it to the wider public. The only way 
you can attract new users if they can read and learn something about new language before they even
have to try and buy a product.

And as far as advanced books on the subject are concerned, I have few from the TP days. But later it was
very difficult to find something that will cover new topics. I have found myself buying books on Windws
programming with C and C++  (altough I have never used C for any Windows programming), and lately
Java. Some ideas and programming concepts are the same no matter what language you use, but I would
love to see some advanced Delphi books also. And, of course, C and Java books cannot cover Delphi features
and Pascal language itself. 

Microsoft had a good thing going with Microsoft Press, maybe Embarcadero could follow that example.

Dalija Prasnikar

Joanna Carter wrote:

> Le 14/05/10 19:07, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) a écrit :
> 
> > Huh? I think it is a very natural syntax (coming from Smalltalk,
> > actually). Instead of
> > 
> >    bla.LoadFromFile('Bla.txt', ofShareDenyNone or ofOpenRead);
> 
> Actually, taking a lead from some of the .NET x-platform libraries,
> you will find:
> 
>    bla.LoadFromFileUsingMode('Bla.txt', ofShareDenyNone or
> ofOpenRead);
> 
> But, as you say, the Objective-C syntax is easy to pick up; it's 
> concepts like "sending messages" to objects rather than calling
> methods

It is the original idea of Smalltalk, and there is, IMO, nothing hard
to grasp about it. Sending messages should be familiar to someone who
has used Windows for so long. <g>

> and being able to send messages to nil objects without any
> runtime problems.

Only if the messages don't have to access the object's fields, just
like in Delphi or C++, AFAICT.


-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)        http://www.teamb.com

"If we'd been born where they were born and taught what they
 were taught, we would believe what they believe."
 -- A church sign in Northern Ireland

Windows 7 is Microsoft's 3rd generation 64 bit consumer Operating System.
Every new Windows computer (except for netbooks) is now being shipped with a 64bit OS.

Using Delphi you cannot fully support a 64 OS - among other things there are various areas of the registry that you just can't access. If your application needs to access these registry areas then you need to use something other than Delphi. I recently had to create a kludge using Lazarus to address such an issue - one of my Delphi applications now runs an Lazarus 64 bit exe which writes out a file that my Delphi app reads so that it knows what certain 64 bit settings are. 

Adding support for Unix, MAC, etc. will not make up for the market share that Delphi is loosing by not having a 64 bit compiler for Windows. Add 64bit support FIRST, then worry about the rest later.  It will no doubt complicate implementing cross platform support but it will keep you from loosing more of your base clientele - Windows developers developing Windows applications. 
FEED THE KIDS FIRST THEN WORRY ABOUT REMODELING THE KITCHEN.
The kids are hungry and many have already left home looking for something to fill their needs.
Dang, even Lazarus has a 64bit version.  

Steven

Edited by: Steven Brenner on Jul 12, 2010 12:10 PM

On 7/12/2010 12:11 PM, Steven Brenner wrote:
> Windows 7 is Microsoft's 3rd generation 64 bit consumer Operating System.
> Every new Windows computer (except for netbooks) is now being shipped with a 64bit OS.
>
> Using Delphi you cannot fully support a 64 OS - among other things there are various areas of the registry that you just can't access. If your application needs to access these registry areas then you need to use something other than Delphi. I recently had to create a kludge using Lazarus to address such an issue - one of my Delphi applications now runs an Lazarus 64 bit exe which writes out a file that my Delphi app reads so that it knows what certain 64 bit settings are.
>

"All of the major software manufacturers are working furiously to get 
64-bit versions out the door. With the market charging full speed ahead, 
you have to wonder why they missed the boat."

http://www.infoworld.com/t/windows/move-over-32-bit-windows-64-bit-busts-out-764?page=0,0&source=IFWNLE_nlt_blogs_2010-07-12

Major point - 46% of Windows 7 PCs are 64-bit, and folks are buying the 
machines to get more than 2GB of memory -- thus, they need 64-bit 
programs for full compatibility.

David Erbas-White

"John Kaster" <jkaster@codegear.com> wrote in message 
news:241805@forums.embarcadero.com...
> David Clegg wrote:
>
>> Next time, ensure you add "Good looking Dave" in the To field :-D
>
> Would that be for the Canadian David Clegg, or the Kiwi David Clegg? :P


My mail just gets returned with no such address. <g>

-- 
Wayne Niddery (TeamB)