looking for other tools then delphi

Hi:

I have been using delphi from version 2. With the time, I feel delphi's
power is diminishing. Personally I think delphi doesn't give me surprise
after version 5.

All tcp/ip, internet components are from third party which is buggy and
hardly to build web application, report tools are third party which is buggy
too, and it's even impossible to build application on portable device by
using delphi. Very disappointing.

I feel guilty and a bit embaraccement to your guys to ask which other tools
are better if I switch off delphi.

But it's boss intention especially when I use M$ visual studio to develop
application on portable device.

Any suggestions are appreciated. Sorry about that.

Roland
0
Roland
12/11/2008 3:49:49 AM
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> which other tools
> are better if I switch off delphi.
> 

I see no good reason to switch off Delphi if you are still doing Win32 work. I know of no better tool for that. However, you really should investigate getting a more current version especially if you might be doing Vista development in the future. When I'm not doing Win32 development I use Component Pascal and C# for .NET and web development, PocketStudio Pascal for Palm PDA development and Oberon-07 for embedded ARM development. 

--
Chris Burrows
CFB Software
http://www.cfbsoftware.com
0
Chris
12/11/2008 5:39:27 AM
Thanks for your response.

We have used PocketStudio Pascal for palm PDA, but more and more portable 
using M$ portable OS which only supported by VS, so this year we have to buy 
VS which is another big cost.

Another issue is more and more third party no longer support delphi, only 
support .NET which I can't see delphi .NET is supperior then M$ one.

I have used Indy to develop web application which is terribly buggy, and 
cost boss fortune and only produce amateur application, really terrible.

Installed delphi 2007 and some reason after update, delphi 2007 gone, no any 
reason, have to re-install, shows the version that can be updated, but when 
click update menu, it says don't need update; there is more other issue, I 
don't know why the delphi IDE got so complex to install and confuse a lot of 
us. Still every time to launch delphi 2007, I got error. I really lost 
confidence for delphi.

Roland





<Chris Burrows> wrote in message news:53864@forums.codegear.com...
>> which other tools
>> are better if I switch off delphi.
>>
>
> I see no good reason to switch off Delphi if you are still doing Win32 
> work. I know of no better tool for that. However, you really should 
> investigate getting a more current version especially if you might be 
> doing Vista development in the future. When I'm not doing Win32 
> development I use Component Pascal and C# for .NET and web development, 
> PocketStudio Pascal for Palm PDA development and Oberon-07 for embedded 
> ARM development.
>
> --
> Chris Burrows
> CFB Software
> http://www.cfbsoftware.com
0
Roland
12/11/2008 6:52:46 AM
> .NET which I can't see delphi .NET is supperior then M$ one.

True, but Delphi.NET is no longer. Delphi Studio 2009 gives you Delphi 
Prism. It's REMObject's Pascal compiler for Visual Studio. So you get Visual 
Studio for any .NET development with Delphi Studio now. And as for C# and 
Prism, Prism is a good chunk in front of C# in functionality. You should 
look into it.

-Atle
0
Atle
12/11/2008 8:37:06 AM
> I have used Indy to develop web application which is terribly buggy, and 
> cost boss fortune and only produce amateur application, really terrible.

This I don't believe. It sounds to me that it's more an issue with the 
product than the components in this case. Remember, components don't create 
the product for you, you do. If you use it wrong, it will not work as 
wanted. If you miss some functionality it's not the component's fault, add 
it yourself or find a better component suite for your use. If you need to 
work with webservices or something like that, I suggest you look into 
REMObject's SDK.

-Atle
0
Atle
12/11/2008 8:44:14 AM
Roland Zhang wrote:
> Hi:
> 
> I have been using delphi from version 2. With the time, I feel delphi's
> power is diminishing. Personally I think delphi doesn't give me surprise
> after version 5.
> 
> All tcp/ip, internet components are from third party which is buggy and
> hardly to build web application, report tools are third party which is buggy
> too, and it's even impossible to build application on portable device by
> using delphi. Very disappointing.
> 
> I feel guilty and a bit embaraccement to your guys to ask which other tools
> are better if I switch off delphi.
> 
> But it's boss intention especially when I use M$ visual studio to develop
> application on portable device.
> 
> Any suggestions are appreciated. Sorry about that.


I agree, the help for the Socket components and all their decendants is 
extremely thin. It it rather hard to develop an internet application 
with a component where you have no idea what does what.

And yes, it is a pity that Delphi was never oriented towards another 
hardware.

Rene
0
Rene
12/11/2008 9:04:12 AM
Thank you for your input.

The problem is what borland/codegear done after delphi5, nothing major as I
feel. Internet stuff is totally depandent on 3rd party and the quality is
really out of control.

I had use indy products to build web application, just terrible, totally not
work as you espected, I wouldn't blame indy, instead they did great
contridution to delphi, BUT why borland/codegear not develop those kind of
framework, they seems totally gave up these stuff. How in today, the
development tool wouldn't involve in internet based development? Borland
throwed delphi into the company today I still can't pronance correctly,
sorry about that.

Delphi is come from pascal, if it can't evolve to another brand new tool, I
can't see 10 years later, it can surpass  M$ development tool. That's what
my boss I asked me, I was dumbed. I need you guys to convince me so I can
convince my boss.


Thanks.

Roland



"Atle Smelvaer" <atle@nospam.datagrafikk.no> wrote in message
news:53908@forums.codegear.com...
> > I have used Indy to develop web application which is terribly buggy, and
> > cost boss fortune and only produce amateur application, really terrible.
>
> This I don't believe. It sounds to me that it's more an issue with the
> product than the components in this case. Remember, components don't
create
> the product for you, you do. If you use it wrong, it will not work as
> wanted. If you miss some functionality it's not the component's fault, add
> it yourself or find a better component suite for your use. If you need to
> work with webservices or something like that, I suggest you look into
> REMObject's SDK.
>
> -Atle
0
Roland
12/11/2008 12:07:29 PM
> Personally I think delphi doesn't give me surprise after version 5.

Really? What about all improvements in compiler (generics, Unicode, inlining, class helpers), VCL (XP/Vista themes support, Ribbon, new controls), or IDE (refactoring, web services, shitload of improvements in editor) ?


> All tcp/ip, internet components are from third party which is buggy

Hard to believe!


> it's even impossible to build application on portable device by
> using delphi

You can use Delphi.NET or Delphi Prism for that.


--
FuturixImager 5.9 Beta 4 is now available at fximage.com
0
Alexander
12/11/2008 1:01:44 PM
> Really? What about all improvements in compiler (generics, Unicode,
inlining, class helpers), VCL (XP/Vista themes support, Ribbon, new
controls), or IDE (refactoring, web services, shitload of improvements in
editor) ?

What about internet stuff, who made tcp/ip, internet components available?
not borland itself. Why throw quickreport away instead using other report
tool which is totally not delphi-like.

> > All tcp/ip, internet components are from third party which is buggy
>
> Hard to believe!

You can have a try indy's internet dbgrid, you will know what's the quality.

> > it's even impossible to build application on portable device by
> > using delphi
>
> You can use Delphi.NET or Delphi Prism for that.

I will have a look into this. Can you convince me that Delphi.NET is better
then M$ C#?

Thanks.

Roland
0
Roland
12/11/2008 1:16:14 PM
> I will have a look into this. Can you convince me that Delphi.NET is
> better then M$ C#?

http://prismwiki.codegear.com/en/Delphi_Prism_vs._CSharp

-- 
With best regards,
Dmitry Arefiev
AnyDAC Team

RemObjects Software
The Infrastructure Company
http://www.remobjects.com
0
Dmitry
12/11/2008 1:22:58 PM
Roland Zhang wrote:

> Hi:
> 
> I have been using delphi from version 2. With the time, I feel
> delphi's power is diminishing. Personally I think delphi doesn't give
> me surprise after version 5.

Doesn't sound like you looked very hard.

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/305016/what-are-major-incentives-to-upgrade-to-d2009-unicode-excluded

Did you look at the Delphi 2009 trial?


> All tcp/ip, internet components are from third party which is buggy
> and hardly to build web application, report tools are third party
> which is buggy too, and it's even impossible to build application on
> portable device by using delphi. Very disappointing.

Between Indy, ICS and Synapse (all free), you have quite a selection of
socket components to choose from, and you'd be hard pressed to call
them all buggy.

I can't speak for third party reporting tools.


> I feel guilty and a bit embaraccement to your guys to ask which other
> tools are better if I switch off delphi.
> 
> But it's boss intention especially when I use M$ visual studio to
> develop application on portable device.
> 
> Any suggestions are appreciated. Sorry about that.

It really depends on what you want to do, but if you're bound and
determined to use another tool, I'd look at Visual Studio.  At least
partly because Microsoft offers cf support specifically (and only) for
C# and VB.Net.

Give it a shot for the same kind of apps you did in Delphi and see if
you like it any better.

-- 
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
0
Bruce
12/11/2008 1:23:57 PM
Roland Zhang wrote:
> You can have a try indy's internet dbgrid,

No, and neither can you. There is no such thing. Indy is non-visual 
components only.

Did you mean IntraWeb?
0
Utf
12/11/2008 2:11:38 PM
Roland Zhang wrote:
> Hi:
> 
> I have been using delphi from version 2. With the time, I feel delphi's
> power is diminishing. Personally I think delphi doesn't give me surprise
> after version 5.
> 
> All tcp/ip, internet components are from third party which is buggy and
> hardly to build web application, report tools are third party which is buggy
> too, and it's even impossible to build application on portable device by
> using delphi. Very disappointing.

Synapse is very useful and stable.  A little more low level than Indy, but I 
personally like it better.

I would hardly say that the two most widely used reporting tools for Delphi 
(ReportBuilder and FastReport) are buggy.  I haven't used RB in a while but have 
you even tried the lastest versions of FastReport (like v4.7)?  It is very 
impressive what they have done.

> I feel guilty and a bit embaraccement to your guys to ask which other tools
> are better if I switch off delphi.
> 
> But it's boss intention especially when I use M$ visual studio to develop
> application on portable device.
> 
> Any suggestions are appreciated. Sorry about that.
> 
> Roland

Well, if your boss is determined to move away from Delphi I guess .Net is the 
best alternative.  I did a bit of C# .net 2.0 programming about 2 years ago and 
here is what I found personally:

- Desktop Apps.  No comparison.  Delphi blows VS out of the water in regard to 
the elegance of development and of speed.  Mind you, this was compared with 
WinForms drawn by GDI+.  Not sure about and haven't tried WPF though.  Also, it 
seems to me that the custom of providing source with 3rd party components is 
much more prevalent in the Delphi community that in .Net.  Also, 3rd party 
components with .net seem to be on average more expensive than Delphi 3rd party 
components.

- Web Work.  ASP.Net is literally the cat's meow for web work.  IOW, its very 
nice and I look forward to doing some more web work but with Delphi Prism.

--
Warm Regards,

Lee
0
Lee
12/11/2008 3:09:36 PM
Hello,

a better open source and free solution (always included on the partner
CD/DVD) would be ICS. It's using the asynchronous model and thus can be
used to build very powerfull TCP/IP solutions without needing threads in
most cases.

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
12/11/2008 3:52:04 PM
> Did you mean IntraWeb?

Sorry should be intraweb.

Roland
0
Roland
12/11/2008 3:53:32 PM
Roland Zhang a écrit :

> I will have a look into this. Can you convince me that Delphi.NET is better
> then M$ C#?

Delphi.NET is not better than C# but Delphi Prism is a much more 
interesting option.

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [TeamB|http://www.teamb.com]
Consultant Software Engineer
0
Joanna
12/11/2008 6:00:08 PM
Roland Zhang wrote:
>> Did you mean IntraWeb?
> 
> Sorry should be intraweb.

Are you saying that all your comments about indy were actually about IntraWeb? If so, I 
agree that a product exactly like IntraWeb should have been developed in-house. Instead 
we had years of resources wasted on Kylix, Delphi.Net, etc.

The reason why Borland should have spent enormous resources on IntraWeb is very simple: 
Delphi revolutionized Windows development in many significant ways. While a starving 
graduate student in linguistics, I learned C++ to write a little program to analyze 
Sanskrit. But I struggled to figure out how create a Windows program. Out comes Delphi 
1, and I was incredulous when I read all the hype about it. But I broke down and bought 
a copy. It changed my life. I was quickly writing complex programs, using RTTI and a 
host of OOP concepts. No other tools at the time could have done that for me.

Obviously web apps have moved to the mainstream now. They haven't replaced Win32/desktop 
apps by any means, but they have carved out a critical and very large space. And there's 
no reason why Delphi could not have created Delphi for WebApps (instead of WebBroker, 
which is hardly easy to use -- unless you like hand-coding everything like Visual C++).

But, whatever the history, AtoZed has created IntraWeb, and it is a very powerful, 
useful tool. True, you need to buy the components from TMS, and use the now open-source 
Arcana components, to get a complete development suite. You mentioned you did not like 
the grid. TMS has a grid that rivals any other web db grid out there. And the Ajax 
support is easier to take advantage of than any other web development platform I've 
seen. IntraWeb isn't the ideal tool for all my web projects (~75% are IntraWeb), but it 
is works brilliantly for those projects.


And as far as Delphi not changing since Delphi 5, it's simply not true. I used Delphi 5 
for a long time, and loved it. But when you get used to live templates, refactorings, 
sync edit (features I use all the time) -- you can't live without them, they save huge 
amounts of time.

And the argument that the core product didn't really change that much since D5 -- had 
limited merit up through D2007. But D2009 completely quashes that myth. In just playing 
around with D2009, I have literally found dozens of gems outside of the greatly hyped 
big 3 changes (Unicode, Generics and Anonymous methods). And I have also literally 
checked up on dozens of my "favorite" bugs in the IDE, and found most of them fixed.

So, move on if you wish, but don't do it uninformed.

Loren Szendre
0
Loren
12/11/2008 7:19:10 PM
> {quote:title=Roland Zhang wrote:}{quote}
> 
> I feel guilty and a bit embaraccement to your guys to ask which other tools
> are better if I switch off delphi.
> 

There is no better option than Delphi, VS doesn't come close to Delphi.

If you develop products to sell you're better off with Delphi. If you contract by the hour you can move to VS or Notepad using a command line compiler. :-)
0
rich
12/11/2008 10:41:09 PM
> There is no better option than Delphi, VS doesn't come close to Delphi.
>
> If you develop products to sell you're better off with Delphi. If you
contract by the hour you can move to VS or Notepad using a command line
compiler. :-)

I have used delphi since its version 2 and never use other development
tools.

So what my interest is can you tell me the concrete facts that Delphi is
still the best tool for win32, internet based application and win CE.

I have used intraWeb +TMS to develop  web application and the result is
terrible.

I tried to find delphi or third part tool can develop win CE app and the
result is I can't. My boss had to buy visiol studio for every programmer.
What a shame!

And now my boss asked me to reconstruct the applications that we developed
10 years ago by delphi. The question I can't answer is because the new
application's life also need another 10 years, can delphi be confident
handling future new technique? I can't answer, be in mind that the current
internet technology's is much mature then 10 years ago, but how much borland
bring us supprise in internet, what's the market  share in term of internet
based application? Very disappointing.

And win CE, I don't know weither delphi.net can handle or not now, but at
least 1 or 2 years ago we have to use visual studio.

So don't use emotional words, we are not sales people.

Roland
0
Roland
12/12/2008 8:47:06 AM
> Delphi.NET is not better than C# but Delphi Prism is a much more
> interesting option.

Thanks Joanna, I will have a look Delphi Prism.

Roland
0
Roland
12/12/2008 8:47:07 AM
Morfik ?
0
John
12/12/2008 12:58:59 PM
"Markus Humm" <markus.humm@freenet.de> wrote in message 
news:54089@forums.codegear.com...
> Hello,
>
> a better open source and free solution (always included on the partner
> CD/DVD) would be ICS. It's using the asynchronous model and thus can be
> used to build very powerfull TCP/IP solutions without needing threads in
> most cases.

Totally agree - ICS enables some extremely powerful features to be built in to 
your apps and all for free (which is why I am suggesting my boss sends him a 
donation for Christmas!). I have never found the Indy components easy to use, 
or reliable when things don't connect. ICS is at :-
http://www.overbyte.be/eng/products/ics.html
-- 
Mark Jacobs
www.dkcomputing.co.uk
0
Mark
12/12/2008 3:02:25 PM
Hi, Zhang

If you are using Delphi from Version2, I guess you are very familiar with 
Delphi, then Why on earth you would mix IntraWeb with Indy, these are 
TOTALLY different product, and actually you are talking about IntraWeb, and 
waste other people's time to talk about wrong topic.

William

"Roland Zhang" <roland@noreply_compdata.com.au> wrote in message 
news:53846@forums.codegear.com...
> Hi:
>
> I have been using delphi from version 2. With the time, I feel delphi's
> power is diminishing. Personally I think delphi doesn't give me surprise
> after version 5.
>
> All tcp/ip, internet components are from third party which is buggy and
> hardly to build web application, report tools are third party which is 
> buggy
> too, and it's even impossible to build application on portable device by
> using delphi. Very disappointing.
>
> I feel guilty and a bit embaraccement to your guys to ask which other 
> tools
> are better if I switch off delphi.
>
> But it's boss intention especially when I use M$ visual studio to develop
> application on portable device.
>
> Any suggestions are appreciated. Sorry about that.
>
> Roland
0
William
12/12/2008 4:54:57 PM
> {quote:title=Roland Zhang wrote:}{quote}
> 
> So don't use emotional words, we are not sales people.
> 

OK, non-emotionally speaking...

I did contract work for years, I know the game, you have to promise a short schedule and low cost to get the work. Then you either deliver a junk product to stay on schedule/cost or deliver a good product but over schedule/cost.

When I did contract work, if the customer "demanded" I use a tool other than Delphi, I would do it in Delphi first then convert to the demanded tool. I noticed that I always got things done faster in Delphi, even when compared to converting the work to another tool.

As far as internet based apps, if you mean "web apps that run in a browser" then you're way behind the times and I can't speak to that. Why don't you catch up to the current times and build "internet enabled apps"?

Is WinCE that Windows BOB thingy?
0
rich
12/12/2008 5:19:18 PM
> If you are using Delphi from Version2, I guess you are very familiar with
> Delphi, then Why on earth you would mix IntraWeb with Indy, these are
> TOTALLY different product, and actually you are talking about IntraWeb,
and
> waste other people's time to talk about wrong topic.

Sorry for confusing you, but in fact indy is buggy too. I wll tell you
exactly what's happenning when we tried to build hyper terminal like
function module.

Anyway my topic is for delphi the whole, indy or intraweb is only one of the
problems we encountered.

Roland
0
Roland
12/12/2008 10:59:04 PM
> When I did contract work, if the customer "demanded" I use a tool other
than Delphi, I would do it in Delphi first then convert to the demanded
tool. I noticed that I always got things done faster in Delphi, even when
compared to converting the work to another tool.

Is because you are familiar with delphi then other tool?


>
> As far as internet based apps, if you mean "web apps that run in a
browser" then you're way behind the times and I can't speak to that. Why
don't you catch up to the current times and build "internet enabled apps"?

Don't understand what you said. Sorry about my english. People use java,
asp, scripts or other tool to build internet application, delphi+intraweb
only shows capability to build such app but far way from what we expected.
From this point view, delphi lost power.

>
> Is WinCE that Windows BOB thingy?

Don't understand either.

Roland
0
Roland
12/12/2008 11:06:55 PM
> {quote:title=Roland Zhang wrote:}{quote}
> 
> Is because you are familiar with delphi then other tool?
> 

Partially yes, because I would always use Delphi if I had my choice. Umm... However, I've done some really small projects that didn't amount to much more than doing a design, then some drag-n-drop of components, then a small bit of event code. So, on the small projects I think the IDEs would be on even ground because the project didn't involve me using any advanced techniques for either language or IDE.

> 
> Don't understand what you said.

Basically I said you should consider looking to the future and start "internet enabling" your apps instead of thinking about "converting" your apps to a browser based system. Just take your current apps and let them share information via the internet. You certainly don't need a browser to use the internet! Your apps will be more robust, more secure, your clients will be able to store any proprietary information on the local machine, and they will be able to work even when *not* connected to the web.
0
rich
12/12/2008 11:41:05 PM
Roland Zhang wrote:

> I have used delphi since its version 2 and never use other development
> tools.
> 
> So what my interest is can you tell me the concrete facts that Delphi
> is still the best tool for win32, internet based application and win
> CE.

From my experience, Delphi it is hands down the best tool for Windows
development.  See my other response for links.

But even if you decide to continue using Delphi, I strongly recommend
at least tinkering around with some other tools.  If nothing else, it
will help give you some perspective and an idea of what else is
available.

For example, even the most die hard Delphi fans will likely acknowledge
the benefits of asp.net.

-- 
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
0
Bruce
12/13/2008 4:50:58 PM
> Delphi is come from pascal, if it can't evolve to another brand new tool, 
> I
> can't see 10 years later, it can surpass  M$ development tool. That's what
> my boss I asked me, I was dumbed. I need you guys to convince me so I can
> convince my boss.

The language is constantly evolving. We now have generics, anonymous 
methods, class helpers etc. etc. They never got passed CodeGear on the win32 
side. If you had been using VS before, I guess you would be out of business, 
because you would need a lot more work to maintain your product. Microsoft 
is not known for backward compatibility when it comes to development tools. 
In Delphi you can have Delphi 2.0 programs still compiling without changes 
in Delphi 2007..
If you were only talking about .NET and not win32, they I would agree. But 
not after they got Prism. Because Prism is ahead of C#. I would say that 
they are ahead in both camps at the moment.

-Atle
0
Atle
12/15/2008 9:18:02 AM
> {quote:title=Roland Zhang wrote:}{quote}
> Sorry for confusing you, but in fact indy is buggy too. I wll tell you
> exactly what's happenning when we tried to build hyper terminal like
> function module.
> 
> Anyway my topic is for delphi the whole, indy or intraweb is only one of the
> problems we encountered.

No, apparently since you have problems with Indy, Intraweb, TMS components, and everything else, your problem isn't any of those. You can't blame problems caused by being a bad developer on the IDE or components.

You just keep complaining about things. Nobody else has the same problems. I've developed dozens of Indy-based Internet applications without any problems whatsoever, in all versions of Delphi up to and including 2007. (I have 2009, but we're not using it yet.) I've also built Internet applications using ICS, also with no problems. I have a few Intraweb apps (built with the version of Intraweb that comes with Delphi, not the commercially available one) that I wrote just for experimenting; they work fine al
so.

Delphi is hands-down the very best application for Win32 development. Depending on what exactly you're trying to do, it *can* be the best application for developing Internet/web server applications. It also can be the worst tool if you try and use it for something for which it was never intended - it really stinks for doing Linux or OS X desktop applications, for instance.

There are ways to use Delphi.NET to develop for Win CE also (but you need Delphi 2006 for that); I posted a couple of links in one of the forums here within the past couple of weeks.

Borland/CodeGear didn't write their own Internet components because they were able to use Indy, freeing up the Borland/CG programmers to work on other things. There's no need to write everything yourself if what you need is available already, especially when it's free and with full source code. Doing so just means you're wasting your time and resources.

Just because your skills are too poor to get something done doesn't mean that the tools you use are to blame. I've done virtually every type of development possible with Delphi, from CRUD applications to DLLs used in MS SQL Server Extended Stored Procedures to Windows services to web server applications and web servers themselves (specialized, for internal use at one company), and never had a reason to blame Delphi or Indy or Intraweb for problems.

But you go ahead and use something else. You'll still be an unskilled programmer; you'll just have different tools to blame. At least have the manners to not waste time on *CodeGear's* forums trying to find a +competitor's+ product; that shows no class at all.

Edited by: Ken White on Dec 15, 2008 3:15 PM
0
Ken
12/15/2008 8:16:52 PM
> You just keep complaining about things. Nobody else has the same problems.
I've developed dozens of Indy-based Internet applications without any
problems whatsoever, in all versions of Delphi up to and including 2007. (I
have 2009, but we're not using it yet.) I've also built Internet
applications using ICS, also with no problems. I have a few Intraweb apps
(built with the version of Intraweb that comes with Delphi, not the
commercially available one) that I wrote just for experimenting; they work
fine al
> so.

Intraweb for experimenting? Are you laughing me? That's why I can not use
intraweb for commercial.

>
> Delphi is hands-down the very best application for Win32 development.
Depending on what exactly you're trying to do, it *can* be the best
application for developing Internet/web server applications. It also can be
the worst tool if you try and use it for something for which it was never
intended - it really stinks for doing Linux or OS X desktop applications,
for instance.

No doubt, Delphi is the best tool for Win32 desktop application I would say
that, and still I like Delphi and would use it for all my projects based on
desktop application in the future.

>
> There are ways to use Delphi.NET to develop for Win CE also (but you need
Delphi 2006 for that); I posted a couple of links in one of the forums here
within the past couple of weeks.

Have you used Delphi.NET to develop for Win CE, if you can, just show me.

>
> Borland/CodeGear didn't write their own Internet components because they
were able to use Indy, freeing up the Borland/CG programmers to work on
other things. There's no need to write everything yourself if what you need
is available already, especially when it's free and with full source code.
Doing so just means you're wasting your time and resources.

I don't think so, it's Borland's strategy error.

>
> Just because your skills are too poor to get something done doesn't mean
that the tools you use are to blame. I've done virtually every type of
development possible with Delphi, from CRUD applications to DLLs used in MS
SQL Server Extended Stored Procedures to Windows services to web server
applications and web servers themselves (specialized, for internal use at
one company), and never had a reason to blame Delphi or Indy or Intraweb for
problems.

If you think me too poor in Delphi and then show me how to use Delphi to
develop Win CE app? If you can I will acknowlodge I am poor otherwise don't
waste time to talk to me, and tell me how many commercial internet
applications using intraweb? Have you used coldfusion or asp to develop
commercial web app? If not, then go have an experience.

> But you go ahead and use something else. You'll still be an unskilled
programmer; you'll just have different tools to blame. At least have the
manners to not waste time on *CodeGear's* forums trying to find a
+competitor's+ product; that shows no class at all.

Yes, you are right. All programmers not using Delphi are unskilled
programmers.

Roland
0
Roland
12/17/2008 8:48:02 AM
Roland Zhang wrote:
> Ken White wrote:
>> I have a few Intraweb apps (built with the version of Intraweb that
>> comes with Delphi, not the commercially available one) that I wrote
>> just for experimenting; they work fine al so.
> 
> Intraweb for experimenting? Are you laughing me? That's why I can not
> use intraweb for commercial.

Sorry Roland, but comments like these make it very hard to take your 
concerns seriously. *Every* tool, component set and library is used for 
experimenting, at least by someone. Following your logic you clearly 
can't use MSVS for production code either, because, you see, I have to 
admit I have used it for experimenting from time to time, as I bet 
thousands of other developers have.
0
Utf
12/17/2008 10:11:58 AM
> {quote:title=Roland Zhang wrote:}{quote}
> Intraweb for experimenting? Are you laughing me? That's why I can not use
> intraweb for commercial.

I didn't say I used it for experimenting. I said I wrote applications to experiment with how Intraweb worked.

Apparently your reading skills aren't any better than your programming skills.

> > There are ways to use Delphi.NET to develop for Win CE also (but you need
> Delphi 2006 for that); I posted a couple of links in one of the forums here
> within the past couple of weeks.
> 
> Have you used Delphi.NET to develop for Win CE, if you can, just show me.

I just said (and quoted again for you above) I had posted here recently about doing Win CE development using Delphi 2006 for .NET. If you're too lazy to search the forums here, it's not my problem.

> 
> >
> > Borland/CodeGear didn't write their own Internet components because they
> were able to use Indy, freeing up the Borland/CG programmers to work on
> other things. There's no need to write everything yourself if what you need
> is available already, especially when it's free and with full source code.
> Doing so just means you're wasting your time and resources.
> 
> I don't think so, it's Borland's strategy error.

I don't think so. I think you don't know what you're talking about.

> If you think me too poor in Delphi and then show me how to use Delphi to
> develop Win CE app? If you can I will acknowlodge I am poor otherwise don't
> waste time to talk to me, and tell me how many commercial internet
> applications using intraweb? Have you used coldfusion or asp to develop
> commercial web app? If not, then go have an experience.

Again, read what I said before and posted above, and then do a search of these groups. If you're too lazy to do a search, that's not my problem. 

As far as ColdFusion, don't make me laugh. It's what script kiddie, wanna-be programmers use for their web development. It's great if you don't know what you're doing and you don't mind a lot of autogenerated crap littering your web pages, I guess.

> Yes, you are right. All programmers not using Delphi are unskilled
> programmers.

Boy, you do really need to work on your reading skills, don't you? I said that no matter what tool *an unskilled programmer* used, they'd still be an unskilled programmer. It has nothing to do with "all programmers". I mentioned *unskilled programmers* specifically. It had nothing to do with programmers using Delphi being skilled and programmers using other languages being unskilled; it had to do with an unskilled programmer being unskilled no matter what language they tried to use.

In other words, no matter what tool you, Ronald Zhang, choose to use, +if you, Roland Zhang, are a bad programmer with one of them+ you'll *still* be a bad programmer with another one. That's how we ended up with so much VB crap littering the planet; it allowed bad programmers to think they could program well.

So, if you're an unskilled programmer who can't properly figure out how to write code in Delphi, you'll be an unskilled programmer when you try to figure out how to write code in VB.NET, or C#, or C++, or Java, or Perl, or PHP,  or Ruby, or Prism/Oxygene, or any other language you choose to try.

If the shoe fits you personally, wear it. If not, move on.
0
Ken
12/17/2008 6:12:36 PM
> I just said (and quoted again for you above) I had posted here recently 
> about doing Win CE development using Delphi 2006 for .NET. If you're too 
> lazy to search the forums here, it's not my problem.

OK. show me how do scan barcode function in portable device by using 
Delphi2006.NET. Have a try my boy.

> Again, read what I said before and posted above, and then do a search of 
> these groups. If you're too lazy to do a search, that's not my problem.
>
> As far as ColdFusion, don't make me laugh. It's what script kiddie, 
> wanna-be programmers use for their web development. It's great if you 
> don't know what you're doing and you don't mind a lot of autogenerated 
> crap littering your web pages, I guess.

You are kidding, you think you can inherit forms by using IntraWeb? My boy. 
And more, how many programmers are using Coldfusion and how many using 
IntraWeb?
0
Roland
12/18/2008 1:58:11 AM
Ken:

I googled you and here is the link shows how you are hostile to other people 
who critisize Delphi and how other people react to you.

http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?joel.3.709505.22

I won't argue with you any more cause you are too hot headed.

My conclusion is Delphi still is the best tool for developing desktop 
application, but not for web, neither for portable device.

Roland
0
Roland
12/18/2008 2:29:56 AM
Roland Zhang wrote:
> You are kidding, you think you can inherit forms by using IntraWeb? My boy. 
> And more, how many programmers are using Coldfusion and how many using 
> IntraWeb?

We use visual form inheritance extensively in our IntraWeb apps. Saves countless hours. 
It even goes multiple layers deep at times, to get from our base page. I don't know why 
you keep harping on IntraWeb. There are many people out there who use it very 
effectively for extremely complex commercial web apps. I'm afraid if you can't make 
IntraWeb work for you, asp.Net won't be any easier.

What does how many people have to do with what I should use? Many times more people use 
Access for database work than use InterBase. Should I give up my stored procedures, 
triggers and generators just cuz more people use Access?

Loren Szendre
0
Loren
12/18/2008 2:32:58 AM
And last bit:

Two years ago I could find Delphi books in Borders in Sydney although many 
were other tools reference books, and now I can't find any Delphi books in 
the store.

Roland
0
Roland
12/18/2008 2:38:57 AM
Ops, I made mistake. I did form inherite.

Roland
0
Roland
12/18/2008 2:50:20 AM
> {quote:title=Roland Zhang wrote:}{quote}
> I googled you and here is the link shows how you are hostile to other people 
> who critisize Delphi and how other people react to you.
> 
> http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?joel.3.709505.22
> 
> I won't argue with you any more cause you are too hot headed.

Great. When you've read every other single post in the thousands on Joel on Software forums, particularly every single one I've made, you can criticize my attitude. Until then, it means nothing. Using a single post is nothing but a senseless personal attack and a waste of my time.

But that's OK. You can try and hide behind that faulty logic as well. It doesn't matter. You're still blaming the toolkit for your own shortcomings; attacking me won't change that one iota.

If I Google'd you, I'd find this thread and think you were a lousy programmer who liked to blame components for his lack of programming skills, had bad reading skills, and really liked to show his ignorance in public discussions. Would that make me right? I mean, that's what I'd get from reading this one thread as a result of a Google search for you.

> My conclusion is Delphi still is the best tool for developing desktop 
> application, but not for web, neither for portable device.

My conclusion is that you keep asking me to do your work for you (now it's related to barcodes), when I've already given you information to use to do it yourself. You seem to be able to Google me, but can't seem to manage to search these forums for the post I've mentioned about five times now. Is this forum's search too complicated for you to use? I find it about as simple as Google's, myself.
0
Ken
12/18/2008 3:38:29 PM
> {quote:title=Roland Zhang wrote:}{quote}
> And last bit:
> 
> Two years ago I could find Delphi books in Borders in Sydney although many 
> were other tools reference books, and now I can't find any Delphi books in 
> the store.

Yay! Try something other than one store (you know, like reading more than one of my posts on JoelOnSoftware). I'd suggest Amazon, Lulu, Borders on-line store, or maybe just visit Bob Swart's web site. Bob has several current Delphi books. Marco Cantu has written a couple recently as well on Delphi. 

Or you could just do a Google search on "Delphi books". I know searching the Embarcadero forums appears to be too complicated for you, but you've shown that you could search Google at least once before.
0
Ken
12/18/2008 3:42:08 PM
Reply:

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