It is FireDAC after all

Marco announces FireDAC:

http://blog.marcocantu.com/blog/firedac_announced.html

-- 
Nick
0
Nick
2/28/2013 3:07:48 PM
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The Buy Now button almost work ;-)
0
Gilbert
2/28/2013 3:35:55 PM
> {quote:title=Nick Hodges wrote:}{quote}
> Marco announces FireDAC:
> 
> http://blog.marcocantu.com/blog/firedac_announced.html
> 
That was fast :)
0
Clement
2/28/2013 3:41:21 PM
delete this message
0
David
2/28/2013 5:28:53 PM
> What's the price for XE3 Pro licensees?

Introductory price is $399

-- 
With best regards,
Dmitry Arefiev / FireDAC Architect
http://www.embarcadero.com/products/rad-studio/firedac
0
Dmitry
2/28/2013 5:30:08 PM
> All the links I found just go to a page that lets you purchase Delphi.

It is a Buy Delphi page, but if you follow it it lists Delphi versions 
and FireDAC.

 From the PR: "The Client/Server Pack is available at an introductory
price of $399 for a limited time (savings of $100 off the regular price)."

-- 
--
Marco Cantu (Embarcadero)
0
Marco
2/28/2013 5:33:38 PM
2013.02.28. 18:33 keltezéssel, Marco Cantu írta:
>
> It is a Buy Delphi page, but if you follow it it lists Delphi versions
> and FireDAC.
>
>   From the PR: "The Client/Server Pack is available at an introductory
> price of $399 for a limited time (savings of $100 off the regular price)."
>

Price is too high.

Delphi XE3 Professional New User 999 EUR
FireDAC New User 399 EUR

Gabor
0
Gabor
2/28/2013 6:22:18 PM
>Price is too high.
>
>Delphi XE3 Professional New User 999 EUR
>FireDAC New User 399 EUR

Not really, AnyDac was alway's available for that price and license
extensions for 199 I believe so not much suprises there. For
Embarcadero, Delphi, Dmitry and Firemonkey it is all good news but I'm
not really happy because fpc/laz is no longer supported so it looks
like is time to revert to yet another db layer like Zeos or Unidac.
Spend some money again..
0
Marius
2/28/2013 7:06:03 PM
Dmitry Arefiev wrote:

>> What's the price for XE3 Pro licensees?
>
>Introductory price is $399

Now I am waiting for the "Great news for all our customers are comming
!" that was mentioned in the email with the subject of "ANN: DA-SOFT
business model change and AnyDAC for Delphi v 6.0.9.3011 released"
(also mentioned on
http://www.da-soft.com/company/our-business-model-change.html).

Any idea what this might be? The $399.00 price tag isn't good news to
me. :(

Cheers,
Nick

-- 
Sent from my XanaNews v1.19.1.373
0
Nicholas
2/28/2013 8:02:41 PM
The great news is that Dmitry takes care for the DB stuff at EMB. This will hopefully allow Delphi to prosper and return to old strength. Honestly (Currency Sign) 150 for the SA. FireDAC is included in the Enterprise version ... more people have access to AnyDAC in Fashion of FireDAC .... That's not bad.


> {quote:title=Nicholas Ring wrote:}{quote}
> Dmitry Arefiev wrote:
> 
> >> What's the price for XE3 Pro licensees?
> >
> >Introductory price is $399
> 
> Now I am waiting for the "Great news for all our customers are comming
> !" that was mentioned in the email with the subject of "ANN: DA-SOFT
> business model change and AnyDAC for Delphi v 6.0.9.3011 released"
> (also mentioned on
> http://www.da-soft.com/company/our-business-model-change.html).
> 
> Any idea what this might be? The $399.00 price tag isn't good news to
> me. :(
> 
> Cheers,
> Nick
> 
> -- 
> Sent from my XanaNews v1.19.1.373
0
Michael
2/28/2013 9:08:13 PM
> Marco announces FireDAC:

And there is a new specific forum area, delphi.database.firedac, and one 
for C++

-- 
--
Marco Cantu (Embarcadero)
0
Marco
2/28/2013 10:51:06 PM
I had a look at the FAQ, then tried going through the purchase process for FireDAC C/S pack for Professional, just to see the price.

549 EUR (FireDAC New User 399 EUR + 1 year updates, 3 support incidents 150 EUR) according to the shopping cart.

One thing in the FAQ made me wonder if it's without source, or botched in some way, as the FAQ says
"The version of FireDAC is always tied to a single version of the Delphi/C++Builder/RAD Studio IDE."

Alternatively, does that sentence not apply to those purchasing FireDAC for use with Professional?
0
Jan
2/28/2013 11:18:41 PM
I just have to agree with some here.. The price is too high!
And if that's the introductory price. Ouch.
0
Jan
2/28/2013 11:32:24 PM
> One thing in the FAQ made me wonder if it's without source, or botched in some way, as the FAQ says
> "The version of FireDAC is always tied to a single version of the Delphi/C++Builder/RAD Studio IDE."

It has source.

The meaning of that sentence, a bit cryptic, is that if you have a 
maintenance you get updates, but the updates might require the 
up-to-date base product (aka a new Delphi when it ships).

So we recommend having maintenance on both Delphi Pro and FireDAC... Or 
move to Enterprise with Maintenance, which gets you also the iOS version 
as it ships.

-- 
--
Marco Cantu (Embarcadero)
0
Marco
2/28/2013 11:36:20 PM
On 3/1/13 12:32 AM, Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:
> I just have to agree with some here.. The price is too high!
> And if that's the introductory price. Ouch.

The price is in line with the former AnyDAC price and similar third 
party tools. What would be a good price for you (just curious, not that 
we are changing it)?

-- 
--
Marco Cantu (Embarcadero)
0
Marco
2/28/2013 11:38:22 PM
> {quote:title=Marco Cantu wrote:}{quote}
> On 3/1/13 12:32 AM, Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:
> > I just have to agree with some here.. The price is too high!
> > And if that's the introductory price. Ouch.
> 
> The price is in line with the former AnyDAC price and similar third 
> party tools. What would be a good price for you (just curious, not that 
> we are changing it)?

Not really. The original was apparently $399 including first year support/updates/upgrades if I remember correctly.

archive.org said Aug 03. 2012:
"AnyDAC has single edition, which includes all DBMS drivers and all source codes. AnyDAC ships as subscription with one year of free upgrades, lifetime license and support.".

Now it's 399 EUR (introductory price according to you, so add another 100) + 150 EUR to get same (apparently no updates otherwise), but then limited to 3 incidents and apparently
limited to your current version of Delphi unless you have that SA.

This is if I haven't missed or misread anything.
0
Jan
2/28/2013 11:48:20 PM
> {quote:title=Marco Cantu wrote:}{quote}
> > One thing in the FAQ made me wonder if it's without source, or botched in some way, as the FAQ says
> > "The version of FireDAC is always tied to a single version of the Delphi/C++Builder/RAD Studio IDE."
> 
> It has source.
> 
> The meaning of that sentence, a bit cryptic, is that if you have a 
> maintenance you get updates, but the updates might require the 
> up-to-date base product (aka a new Delphi when it ships).
> 
> So we recommend having maintenance on both Delphi Pro and FireDAC... Or 
> move to Enterprise with Maintenance, which gets you also the iOS version 
> as it ships.

That's nice to know. Somehow AnyDAC with the old price (even if it were euro) was somewhat acceptable with
the old terms as cited above, but now I really can't say the same.
Enterprise/architect is too high based on price/amount of features I'm likely to use of those not in Pro.
0
Jan
2/28/2013 11:56:38 PM
> {quote:title=Dmitry Arefiev wrote:}{quote}
> > What's the price for XE3 Pro licensees?
> 
> Introductory price is $399
> 
> -- 
> With best regards,
> Dmitry Arefiev / FireDAC Architect
> http://www.embarcadero.com/products/rad-studio/firedac

Dmirty, they dropped linux support!
Marco, why you drop linux suppoort and fpc compiling support???? 

I have severals servers working with anydac for FPC. What must i do? Is the EMB plan for ANYDAC REMOVE funcitionality???

That is the EMB idea for improvement???

Edited by: german gentile on Feb 28, 2013 6:36 PM

Edited by: german gentile on Feb 28, 2013 6:36 PM
0
german
3/1/2013 12:36:58 AM
german gentile wrote:

> Dmirty, they dropped linux support!
> Marco, why you drop linux suppoort and fpc compiling support???? 


http://docs.embarcadero.com/products/rad_studio/firedac/Lazarus___FPC.html


-- 
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
0
Dave
3/1/2013 1:19:52 AM
Michael Thuma wrote:

>The great news is that Dmitry takes care for the DB stuff at EMB.

That is good news but the question to ask if how often will the updates
come out? With AnyDAC, it was fairly regular...


>This will hopefully allow Delphi to prosper and return to old
>strength. Honestly (Currency Sign) 150 for the SA. FireDAC is
>included in the Enterprise version ... more people have access to
>AnyDAC in Fashion of FireDAC .... That's not bad.

I am not questioning that. I asking what is the good news for their
customers before the Embarcadero's purchase of AnyDAC - As a hobbiest
Delphi Pro user, what has happened is not good news. Not to mention
that in Australia, the price has been jacked-up (AU$1 ~= US$1.03) -
What gives here?

Cheers,
Nick
0
Nicholas
3/1/2013 7:11:46 AM
> {quote:title=Michael Thuma wrote:}{quote}
> The great news is that Dmitry takes care for the DB stuff at EMB. 

As opposed to who, Kramer Costanza? Dmitry was already taking care of the product, so I don't see how this is "great news".
0
Kramer
3/1/2013 7:43:29 AM
> Dmitry was already taking care of the product, so I don't see how this is 
> "great news".

Simple ... I am almost a one man shop. And here are only
24 hours per day. With all possible consequences from that.
Now product will be governed by the big company.

What you can expect from that:
- improved technical vision. It is great to have ability to discuss
roadmap with Marco, Calvin, Tim, John and other guys.
- improved QA. As here will be more resources dedicated to that.
- improved IDE integration. I am not expert in IDE, but my new
colleagues are.
- improved documentation. A documentation team will work on
docu, including translation to other languages.
- much bigger community, more product supporters, more
product sessions, courses, books, code samples.

I even will not talk about the possibility for me and Alexey to
concentrate more on technical stuffs - development and support.

Would you imagine that with AnyDAC ? I cannot ...

-- 
With best regards,
Dmitry Arefiev / FireDAC Architect
FireDAC - Firebird, SQLite, MySQL, SQL Server, Oracle, PostgreSQL,
DB2, SQL Anywhere, Access, Informix, ODBC high-speed data access lib
0
Dmitry
3/1/2013 8:10:00 AM
> {quote:title=Nick Hodges wrote:}{quote}
> Marco announces FireDAC:
> 

Yes, I saw the ad here a few minutes ago: http://www.embarcadero.com/products/rad-studio/firedac

but as I feared and dreaded, not a single word about getting it for older versions of Delphi.  It's so weird, here they go and acquire a product that's all ready to rock and then they immediately exclude maybe half of potential buyers from getting it.  
Though I own XE3, I have lots of older complex ansi-based applications that I simply can't port to XE3 in the foreseeable future.
0
Arthur
3/1/2013 8:27:06 AM
I am a hobbyist too, totally understand your point. I suffer from the same. Especially hobbyists have to take care that they don't spend too much money. Also if we could afford the cost must be the lowest.

> {quote:title=Nicholas Ring wrote:}{quote}
> Michael Thuma wrote:
> 
> >The great news is that Dmitry takes care for the DB stuff at EMB.
> 
> That is good news but the question to ask if how often will the updates
> come out? With AnyDAC, it was fairly regular...
> 
> 
> >This will hopefully allow Delphi to prosper and return to old
> >strength. Honestly (Currency Sign) 150 for the SA. FireDAC is
> >included in the Enterprise version ... more people have access to
> >AnyDAC in Fashion of FireDAC .... That's not bad.
> 
> I am not questioning that. I asking what is the good news for their
> customers before the Embarcadero's purchase of AnyDAC - As a hobbiest
> Delphi Pro user, what has happened is not good news. Not to mention
> that in Australia, the price has been jacked-up (AU$1 ~= US$1.03) -
> What gives here?
> 
> Cheers,
> Nick
0
Michael
3/1/2013 8:38:41 AM
You only see the things that have been possible and not those that had not been possible. The potential is higher ... What you see today in the area of DACs is a result from clever/innovative people (we are used to this) but to move beyond the model had to be changed. There are many things Dmitry can do now that never paid before. In the .net world you don't have this problem because the sales can be 10times higher an a lot more.

The current is a fraction of what could have been possible.

> {quote:title=Kramer Costanza wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=Michael Thuma wrote:}{quote}
> > The great news is that Dmitry takes care for the DB stuff at EMB. 
> 
> As opposed to who, Kramer Costanza? Dmitry was already taking care of the product, so I don't see how this is "great news".
0
Michael
3/1/2013 8:51:13 AM
> {quote:title=Dmitry Arefiev wrote:}{quote}
> - improved documentation. A documentation team will work on
> docu, including translation to other languages.

Well, if the crack Embarcadero documentation team is on the job, then things will definitely be... oh wait.
0
Joseph
3/1/2013 8:58:02 AM
> {quote:title=Gabor Boros wrote:}{quote}
> 2013.02.28. 18:33 keltezéssel, Marco Cantu írta:
> >
> > It is a Buy Delphi page, but if you follow it it lists Delphi versions
> > and FireDAC.
> >
> >   From the PR: "The Client/Server Pack is available at an introductory
> > price of $399 for a limited time (savings of $100 off the regular price)."
> >
> 
> Price is too high.
> 
> Delphi XE3 Professional New User 999 EUR
> FireDAC New User 399 EUR
> 
> Gabor

So in the end, once regular pricing kicks in, this will be the equivalent of using AnyDAC rather than dbsnap to entice people to buy the client/server pack. I have to agree with Gabor that asking Europeans to pay almost $2000 is not the way to attract new Delphi users.
0
Joseph
3/1/2013 9:04:56 AM
> Marco, why you drop linux suppoort and fpc compiling support????

We are integrating FireDAC into our products and offer it as an add-on 
to some SKUs. Our plan is to add functionality, but on the platforms we 
support (Windows, Mac, soon iOS, later Android). We might have Linux 
offers in the future, but currently don't have one.

-- 
--
Marco Cantu (Embarcadero)
0
Marco
3/1/2013 9:17:29 AM
> Though I own XE3, I have lots of older complex ansi-based applications that I simply can't port to XE3

The current version will be OK for you, as it has support for some older 
versions as well (and the license includes that scenario). You can run 
the installer passing the /IDE:nn parameter, where nn is the product 
version to install for.

But maintaining the product on many versions would be a very expensive 
proposition (I know, a lot of third party vendors do that, it is their 
business decision).

I think the real issue at stake here, is that we (as Embarcadero) should 
have done more to help you port those ansi-based apps to Unicode 
versions of Delphi.

-- 
--
Marco Cantu (Embarcadero)
0
Marco
3/1/2013 9:24:33 AM
FireDAC is replacement for dbExpress ?
0
Neagu
3/1/2013 2:13:31 PM
Neagu Laurentiu wrote:

> FireDAC is replacement for dbExpress ?

They haven't said how that will all play out.

-- 
Nick
0
Nick
3/1/2013 2:18:53 PM
> {quote:title=Dave Nottage wrote:}{quote}
> german gentile wrote:
> 
> > Dmirty, they dropped linux support!
> > Marco, why you drop linux suppoort and fpc compiling support???? 
> 
> 
> http://docs.embarcadero.com/products/rad_studio/firedac/Lazarus___FPC.html

The announcement say Windows and Mac. Documentation means nothing here.
0
german
3/1/2013 2:22:01 PM
> {quote:title=Marco Cantu wrote:}{quote}
> > Marco, why you drop linux suppoort and fpc compiling support????
> 
> We are integrating FireDAC into our products and offer it as an add-on 
> to some SKUs. Our plan is to add functionality, but on the platforms we 
> support (Windows, Mac, soon iOS, later Android). We might have Linux 
> offers in the future, but currently don't have one.

Marco, 
  Is a ver polite response. But you are not asking my question. Dcoumentation say it can be installed on linux and use fpc, announcement says no. We need to know if it will work on fpc/lazarus or dont.

Adittional, im a anydca subscriber dont get a mail from wmb and i send a email for news, nop response. What more i must do?
0
german
3/1/2013 2:25:54 PM
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

> Well, if the crack Embarcadero documentation team is on the job, then
> things will definitely be... oh wait.

What is your complaint about the current documentation?

-- 
Nick
0
Nick
3/1/2013 2:26:02 PM
> {quote:title=Nick Hodges wrote:}{quote}
> Joseph Mitzen wrote:
> 
> > Well, if the crack Embarcadero documentation team is on the job, then
> > things will definitely be... oh wait.
> 
> What is your complaint about the current documentation?

It's still on the Microsoft help engine that's so horribly broken that even
Microsoft stopped using it years ago, for starters...
0
Mason
3/1/2013 2:36:07 PM
> {quote:title=Nick Hodges wrote:}{quote}
> What is your complaint about the current documentation?

- It lives on a platform so horrific that I prefer to visit the web wiki version over using Ctrl-F1
- Little to no effective segregation of RAD, C++, Delphi and various SDK content.
- Massive amounts of holes and bare bones help
- Incredibly poor cross referencing and see also.
- A grave lack of explorable content (concept | breakdown | examples | alternatives)

--
http://plus.lars.fosdal.com
0
Lars
3/1/2013 2:45:28 PM
Mason Wheeler wrote:

> It's still on the Microsoft help engine that's so horribly broken
> that even Microsoft stopped using it years ago, for starters...

That's a meta detail (which I agree with, but the least of anyone's
worries, IMO...)

-- 
Nick
0
Nick
3/1/2013 2:50:35 PM
Lars Fosdal wrote:

> - It lives on a platform so horrific that I prefer to visit the web
> wiki version over using Ctrl-F1 - Little to no effective segregation
> of RAD, C++, Delphi and various SDK content.  - Massive amounts of
> holes and bare bones help - Incredibly poor cross referencing and see
> also.  - A grave lack of explorable content (concept | breakdown |
> examples | alternatives)

Well, that is fairly comprehensive.  ;-)

Can you imagine what the help would look like if it were to meet all of
those requirements?  (Not that it shouldn't, it's just mind-boggling to
think about....)

I think the help should be 100% HTML and 100% server-side.

-- 
Nick
0
Nick
3/1/2013 2:52:11 PM
> Well, if the crack Embarcadero documentation team is on the job, then 
> things will definitely be... oh wait.

I am expecting to see a synergy in documenting the data
access solutions. Or do you want to say, that existing FD
documentation is almost ideal ? Oh no ... I am not a native
speaker and cannot explain complex things in simple words.

-- 
With best regards,
Dmitry Arefiev / FireDAC Architect
FireDAC - Firebird, SQLite, MySQL, SQL Server, Oracle, PostgreSQL,
DB2, SQL Anywhere, Access, Informix, ODBC high-speed data access lib
0
Dmitry
3/1/2013 3:07:43 PM
> Documentation say it can be installed on linux and use fpc, announcement says no.
> We need to know if it will work on fpc/lazarus or dont.

The license says you can use it with Embarcadero development tools.

> Adittional, im a anydca subscriber dont get a mail from wmb and i send a email for news, nop response. What more i must do?

This should be coming shortly. sorry lost track of it. It will let you 
have FireDAC (including updates) until your maintenance expires. 
Afterwards, you will be able to renew it (currently at 150$/year).

-- 
--
Marco Cantu (Embarcadero)
0
Marco
3/1/2013 3:42:37 PM
"Marco Cantu" <marco.cantu@embarcadero.com> wrote in message 
news:552870@forums.embarcadero.com...
>> Documentation say it can be installed on linux and use fpc, announcement 
>> says no.
>> We need to know if it will work on fpc/lazarus or dont.
>
> The license says you can use it with Embarcadero development tools.

Is this the license?:
http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/42965

Assuming yes...
What portion of FireDAC is identified as redistributable?
Does it include source, or are all "redistributable" portions _only_ 
provided in executable form?
0
david
3/1/2013 4:35:13 PM
> Is this the license?:

These are supplemental license terms. They are supplemental
to Delphi, C++Builder or RAD Studio license.

> What portion of FireDAC is identified as redistributable?

BPL's and ADAdministrator.exe.

> Does it include source, or are all "redistributable" portions _only_ 
> provided in executable form?

Sources cannot be redistributed. 

-- 
With best regards,
Dmitry Arefiev / FireDAC Architect
FireDAC - Firebird, SQLite, MySQL, SQL Server, Oracle, PostgreSQL, 
DB2, SQL Anywhere, Access, Informix, ODBC high-speed data access lib
0
Dmitry
3/1/2013 4:57:39 PM
"Dmitry Arefiev" <darefiev@da-soft.com> wrote in message 
news:552892@forums.embarcadero.com...
>
>> Does it include source, or are all "redistributable" portions _only_
>> provided in executable form?
>
> Sources cannot be redistributed.
>

Do "redistributable" parts rebuilt by user, if that is even possible, 
qualify for redistribution in binary form?
0
david
3/1/2013 5:01:10 PM
> - A grave lack of explorable content (concept | breakdown | 
examples|| alternatives)

This would be a very good way to do it. Lars is absolutely right.

It would probably be done within the next nine month if everybody 
discussing in this NG would rather interact in a crowdsourcing-endeavour 
on this effort ;-)

In means of documentation IMO Microsoft sets the standard with the .NET 
framework documentation. The one thing that bothers me there is the 
overfancy webfrontend with popups off the charts.
0
Roland
3/1/2013 5:28:44 PM
Binaries and sources are different things.
You cannot redistribute sources.
You can redistribute some binaries.
For full details please read FireDAC Deploy.html 

-- 
With best regards,
Dmitry Arefiev / FireDAC Architect
FireDAC - Firebird, SQLite, MySQL, SQL Server, Oracle, PostgreSQL, 
DB2, SQL Anywhere, Access, Informix, ODBC high-speed data access lib
0
Dmitry
3/1/2013 6:00:29 PM
Am 01.03.2013 15:52, schrieb Nick Hodges:
> Lars Fosdal wrote:
> 
>> - It lives on a platform so horrific that I prefer to visit the web
>> wiki version over using Ctrl-F1 - Little to no effective segregation
>> of RAD, C++, Delphi and various SDK content.  - Massive amounts of
>> holes and bare bones help - Incredibly poor cross referencing and see
>> also.  - A grave lack of explorable content (concept | breakdown |
>> examples | alternatives)
> 
> Well, that is fairly comprehensive.  ;-)
> 
> Can you imagine what the help would look like if it were to meet all of
> those requirements?  (Not that it shouldn't, it's just mind-boggling to
> think about....)
> 
> I think the help should be 100% HTML and 100% server-side.
> 

Hello,

100% HTML is ok, 100% server side is not.
Make it auto update, ok. But not require internet access for every help
page to be shown. Not even with Google's new improved "Zopfli" zlib
compatible compression which saves 3-8% bandwidth but requires 2x to 3x
more processing time on the server side.

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
3/1/2013 6:08:11 PM
"Dmitry Arefiev" <darefiev@da-soft.com> wrote in message 
news:552916@forums.embarcadero.com...
> Binaries and sources are different things.

I understand this.

> You cannot redistribute sources.

I understand this.

> You can redistribute some binaries.

That was generally understood, but not what I asked.

A)Is sufficient source provided for an end-user to rebuild the 
redistributable portions of the product?

B)If the user rebuilds those redistributable portions from the provided 
source (if enough is provided to do so), are they allowed to redistribute 
the binaries resulting from THEIR rebuild of the redistributable items?

> For full details please read FireDAC Deploy.html

Where can I find this? (web URL please)
0
david
3/1/2013 6:36:29 PM
> A)Is sufficient source provided for an end-user to rebuild the 
> redistributable portions of the product?

No to ADAdministrator.exe
Yes to BPL's

> B)If the user rebuilds those redistributable portions from the provided 
> source (if enough is provided to do so), are they allowed to redistribute 
> the binaries resulting from THEIR rebuild of the redistributable items?

I will let to answer on this to others.

>> For full details please read FireDAC Deploy.html
> Where can I find this? (web URL please)

I posted it to embarcadero.public.attachments newsgroup.

-- 
With best regards,
Dmitry Arefiev / FireDAC Architect
FireDAC - Firebird, SQLite, MySQL, SQL Server, Oracle, PostgreSQL,
DB2, SQL Anywhere, Access, Informix, ODBC high-speed data access lib
0
Dmitry
3/1/2013 7:08:02 PM
IAmNotALawyer -  Consult one who is and willing to legally defend what they 
say if any of this is important to you - but, FWIW ...

<german gentile> wrote in message news:552847@forums.embarcadero.com...
>
> Marco,
>  Is a ver polite response. But you are not asking my question. 
> Dcoumentation say it can be installed on linux and use fpc, announcement 
> says no. We need to know if it will work on fpc/lazarus or dont.
>

The text in the Deploy.html in FireDAC_Deploy.zip posted by Dmitry in 
..attachments indicates their INTENT is that you canNOT distribute/use with 
fpc/lazarus.

From Deploy.html retrieved from the posted zip file:
"
4. Limitation on Redistribution
FireDAC may only be redistributed with applications created using RAD 
Studio, Delphi and/or C++Builder Professional, Enterprise, Ultimate or 
Architect license, and then only for the purpose of use with these 
applications.

"

While IAmNotALawyer, I suspect that, until/unless they make specific 
reference to that IN THEIR (supplemental) LICENSE (watch for the bits to 
change), you are not in any way legally bound to that restriction, as it was 
not part of the agreement you submitted to in making a purchase.

The supplemental license here (http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/42965) did 
NOT when I read it, to the best of my understanding incorporate that 
restriction directly, nor by any sort of referral I can see.  It appears to 
only incorporate by reference, item 2 in that Deploy.html file.

Perhaps their non-supplemental license, which I haven't seen, is written 
differently.
0
david
3/1/2013 7:41:05 PM
> {quote:title=Nick Hodges wrote:}{quote}
> Joseph Mitzen wrote:
> 
> > Well, if the crack Embarcadero documentation team is on the job, then
> > things will definitely be... oh wait.
> 
> What is your complaint about the current documentation?
> 
> -- 
> Nick

Didn't XE3 ship with no documentation for record helpers? And didn't Firemonkey ship poorly documented?

>Property/method reference documentation. In fact, this absence is universal to all the things new to XE2, FMX or otherwise. This is 
>exasperating, and worth repeating: after all the complaints, Embarcadero release a new version with barely any reference help for even the 
>simplest new thing. WTF were the doc team doing for two years? It’s not like they’ve invested time in a DExplore replacement, or fixing blatant 
>usability bugs in the XE help (e.g. the checkbox for hiding C++ declarations not working, and how previously separate Delphi reference entries 
>have been combined into mini-essays, causing the typical user to think F1 brings up useless results when it actually isn’t). The lack of 
>documentation for the new stuff us then made worse by unit scoping (i.e., the prefixing of standard units with a ‘namespace’ – something in 
>itself I quite like BTW), which is rarely acknowledged by the help files, and sometimes confuses them.
-Chris Rolliston

There's not exactly a track record in recent releases for clear, detailed and abundant documentation flowing from Embarcadero, which is why I found it funny that one of the things we should look forward to was the documentation team getting its hands on AnyDAC.
0
Joseph
3/1/2013 7:47:08 PM
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

> Didn't XE3 ship with no documentation for record helpers? And didn't
> Firemonkey ship poorly documented?

I don't know.


> 
> There's not exactly a track record in recent releases for clear,
> detailed and abundant documentation flowing from Embarcadero, which
> is why I found it funny that one of the things we should look forward
> to was the documentation team getting its hands on AnyDAC.

It seems much improved to me.

Of course, once it is determined that "The documentation sucks", it is
very, very, very difficult to overcome that reputation no matter what
they deliver.


-- 
Nick
0
Nick
3/1/2013 7:53:01 PM
> >Property/method reference documentation. In fact, this absence is universal to all the things new to XE2, FMX or otherwise. This is 
> >exasperating, and worth repeating: after all the complaints, Embarcadero release a new version with barely any reference help for even the 
> >simplest new thing. WTF were the doc team doing for two years? It’s not like they’ve invested time in a DExplore replacement, or fixing blatant 
> >usability bugs in the XE help (e.g. the checkbox for hiding C++ declarations not working, and how previously separate Delphi reference entries 
> >have been combined into mini-essays, causing the typical user to think F1 brings up useless results when it actually isn’t). The lack of 
> >documentation for the new stuff us then made worse by unit scoping (i.e., the prefixing of standard units with a ‘namespace’ – something in 
> >itself I quite like BTW), which is rarely acknowledged by the help files, and sometimes confuses them.
> -Chris Rolliston

What you quote was a comment regarding the XE2 help at RTM. Some of the things were fixed in updates, in case anyone thinks of correcting any of the points I made...
0
Chris
3/1/2013 7:59:31 PM
On 3/1/2013 11:53 AM, Nick Hodges wrote:
>
> It seems much improved to me.
>
> Of course, once it is determined that "The documentation sucks", it is
> very, very, very difficult to overcome that reputation no matter what
> they deliver.
>
>

....and thus, when a fan boy jumps in with 'it seems much improved to me' 
the response is EVEN GREATER than it would normally have been.  In other 
words, there seems to be a complete lack of understanding of the 'costs' 
in terms of reputation are due to the past problems...

David Erbas-White
0
David
3/1/2013 8:15:06 PM
Documentation is ok.

Honestly. Most people here should not need to install the help anyway. After 18 years they should now.

Mike

> {quote:title=Nick Hodges wrote:}{quote}
> Joseph Mitzen wrote:
> 
> > Didn't XE3 ship with no documentation for record helpers? And didn't
> > Firemonkey ship poorly documented?
> 
> I don't know.
> 
> 
> > 
> > There's not exactly a track record in recent releases for clear,
> > detailed and abundant documentation flowing from Embarcadero, which
> > is why I found it funny that one of the things we should look forward
> > to was the documentation team getting its hands on AnyDAC.
> 
> It seems much improved to me.
> 
> Of course, once it is determined that "The documentation sucks", it is
> very, very, very difficult to overcome that reputation no matter what
> they deliver.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Nick
0
Michael
3/1/2013 8:42:51 PM
David Erbas-White wrote:

> ...and thus, when a fan boy jumps in with 'it seems much improved to
> me' the response is EVEN GREATER than it would normally have been.
> In other words, there seems to be a complete lack of understanding of
> the 'costs' in terms of reputation are due to the past problems...

I'm hurt you call me a fan boy.  It's spelled "fanboi", my good man.

I understand very well the problems with the docs.

-- 
Nick
0
Nick
3/1/2013 8:51:47 PM
On 3/1/2013 12:51 PM, Nick Hodges wrote:
> David Erbas-White wrote:
>
>> ...and thus, when a fan boy jumps in with 'it seems much improved to
>> me' the response is EVEN GREATER than it would normally have been.
>> In other words, there seems to be a complete lack of understanding of
>> the 'costs' in terms of reputation are due to the past problems...
>
> I'm hurt you call me a fan boy.  It's spelled "fanboi", my good man.
>
> I understand very well the problems with the docs.
>

Well, I still send text messages paying attention to grammar, spelling, 
and punctuation -- I'm a bit old school in that regard... <G>

David Erbas-White
0
David
3/1/2013 9:10:27 PM
I would not bet on FPC support. Dmitry is not involved into the decision. Those who call themselves marketing are the decision makers, afig (as far as I guess). There is no hope left. I think it's little strange. Dmitry put effort into FPC support, I don't think it's wise not to support FPC, because FPC will remain at the end of the day. It's so obvious.

I would be surprised to see a Delphi for Linux but I would not use it since the alternative does already exist.

Mike
> {quote:title=german gentile wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=Dave Nottage wrote:}{quote}
> > german gentile wrote:
> > 
> > > Dmirty, they dropped linux support!
> > > Marco, why you drop linux suppoort and fpc compiling support???? 
> > 
> > 
> > http://docs.embarcadero.com/products/rad_studio/firedac/Lazarus___FPC.html
> 
> The announcement say Windows and Mac. Documentation means nothing here.
0
Michael
3/1/2013 9:21:36 PM
> A)Is sufficient source provided for an end-user to rebuild the
> redistributable portions of the product?

Yes, with the exception of encryption code for SQLite.

> B)If the user rebuilds those redistributable portions from the provided
> source (if enough is provided to do so), are they allowed to redistribute
> the binaries resulting from THEIR rebuild of the redistributable items?

You can create your own packages and distribute those (starting with the 
existing ones). You cannot use the same package name, like in Delphi, 
though. Just rename them, and that's it.

>> For full details please read FireDAC Deploy.html
>
> Where can I find this? (web URL please)

That's only in the shipping product, I think. But doesn't add much.

-- 
--
Marco Cantu (Embarcadero)
0
Marco
3/1/2013 10:15:44 PM
Michael Thuma wrote:

>  After 18 years they should (k)now.

What, that it's a waste of time?

-- 
SteveT
0
Steve
3/1/2013 10:35:09 PM
> While IAmNotALawyer, I suspect that, until/unless they make specific
> reference to that IN THEIR (supplemental) LICENSE (watch for the bits to
> change), you are not in any way legally bound to that restriction, as it was
> not part of the agreement you submitted to in making a purchase.

"you may install and use one copy of FireDAC with a corresponding 
license to Delphi, C++Builder or RAD Studio Professional, Enterprise, 
Ultimate or Architect."

I'm also not a lawyer, but this is quite clear to me. The license is to 
use FireDAC with Delphi or C++Builder.

> Perhaps their non-supplemental license, which I haven't seen, is written
> differently.

This is the only license. It is an extension (and partially amends) the 
Delphi / C++Builder one.

-- 
--
Marco Cantu (Embarcadero)
0
Marco
3/1/2013 10:43:21 PM
>"Michael Thuma" wrote:
>I am a hobbyist too, totally understand your point. I suffer from the same. 
>Especially hobbyists have to take care that they don't spend too much 
>money. Also if we could afford the cost must be >the lowest.

Probably the apple store wouldn't be as successful as it is without the 
hobbyists.
0
Gilbert
3/2/2013 12:39:40 AM
> {quote:title=david hoke wrote:}
> The text in the Deploy.html in FireDAC_Deploy.zip posted by Dmitry in 
> .attachments indicates their INTENT is that you canNOT distribute/use with 
> fpc/lazarus.
> 
> From Deploy.html retrieved from the posted zip file:
> "
> 4. Limitation on Redistribution
> FireDAC may only be redistributed with applications created using RAD 
> Studio, Delphi and/or C++Builder Professional, Enterprise, Ultimate or 
> Architect license, and then only for the purpose of use with these 
> applications.

Then i buy a product with updates for a full year, including support linux and fpc compile. If that feature will be removed i want my money back. Easy...

And more over. That are the clear signal that will not ENHANCE anydac, the opossite. They start REMOVING funcionality. very clear, like everything EMB touch.

I will never undesrtand who takes this SILLY directions, really. EMB will never learn?  Good move, you sucks!
0
german
3/2/2013 4:25:35 AM
> {quote:title=Marco Cantu wrote:}
> 
> I'm also not a lawyer, but this is quite clear to me. The license is to 
> use FireDAC with Delphi or C++Builder.

Congratulations Marco, you must be really happy now! You drop the UNIQUE great database library for Linux of the market! As always EMBARCADERO innovation, one step ahead! I can't believe this.
0
german
3/2/2013 4:27:58 AM
> {quote:title=Dmitry Arefiev wrote:}
> With best regards,
> Dmitry Arefiev / FireDAC Architect
> http://www.embarcadero.com/products/rad-studio/firedac

Hi my friend? How do you fill about this "move" to avoid your former customers to compile on linux? 
What do you think? Im really curious... What do you think of your loyal customers, like me, renewing the license just a month ago you sell to that increidible company your business without any condition or respect for your formers customers? I'm very happy to drop all my code working on linux because your decition.

Thanks a lot!

We really see how this will improve our work! That just becomes!
0
german
3/2/2013 4:43:07 AM
> {quote:title=Michael Thuma wrote:}{quote}
> I would not bet on FPC support. Dmitry is not involved into the decision. Those who call themselves marketing are the decision makers, afig (as far as I guess). There is no hope left. I think it's little strange. Dmitry put effort into FPC support, I don't think it's wise not to support FPC, because FPC will remain at the end of the day. It's so obvious.

He can talk about this on the negotiation. And yes, is stupid by EMB drop support to fpc. Are they worried about loosing market?  EMB wins nothing with this and former anydac customers lose a lot. And former anydac customers are delphi customers also, embarcadero, wake up!
0
german
3/2/2013 4:51:44 AM
Yes. It's 'know'. Thank you. It's either my keyboard, my old eyes or my old brain.

Honestly. Documentation in fashion of a help file should not be required. The AnyDAC help file is very good. Complex things like the FMX cannot be explained in a help file. A help file documents the parts of the puzzle but does not show the picture.

Mike

> {quote:title=Steve Thackery wrote:}{quote}
> Michael Thuma wrote:
> 
> >  After 18 years they should (k)now.
> 
> What, that it's a waste of time?
> 
> -- 
> SteveT
0
Michael
3/2/2013 10:07:09 AM
Delphi business is bigger than you maybe think, but in practice it's shrinking. Not because of EMB.

AnyDAC purchased by EMB. It's is a sacrifice I think - the difference between Delphi Prof and RAD Studio Enterprise turned out to approach 0 asymptotically. Aftermath from my perspective -  I lost a friend and DB access. The first hurts, the second I learned to live with - it's not the first time. Change is part of the life.

I cannot imagine that people will not go for FPC... on the long run.

Mike

> {quote:title=german gentile wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=Michael Thuma wrote:}{quote}
> > I would not bet on FPC support. Dmitry is not involved into the decision. Those who call themselves marketing are the decision makers, afig (as far as I guess). There is no hope left. I think it's little strange. Dmitry put effort into FPC support, I don't think it's wise not to support FPC, because FPC will remain at the end of the day. It's so obvious.
> 
> He can talk about this on the negotiation. And yes, is stupid by EMB drop support to fpc. Are they worried about loosing market?  EMB wins nothing with this and former anydac customers lose a lot. And former anydac customers are delphi customers also, embarcadero, wake up!
0
Michael
3/2/2013 10:32:08 AM
Michael Thuma wrote:

>AnyDAC purchased by EMB. It's is a sacrifice I think - the difference
>between Delphi Prof and RAD Studio Enterprise turned out to approach
>0 asymptotically. Aftermath from my perspective -  I lost a friend
>and DB access. The first hurts, the second I learned to live with -
>it's not the first time. Change is part of the life.

Removing fpc is a blow for us, but voila there are other db components
out there. But whats next in this component ratrace, DevExpress /
buyout FastReport? Whats the point of all those bundled products these
day's..

>I cannot imagine that people will not go for FPC... on the long run.

Thats what i have been thinking for a couple of years, but in the end
we are still on delphi. Taking that road is a step back in some area's
(specially components) but the differences are getting smaller and
smaller. Keep in mind that fpc/laz can do a lot more in the
multiplatform area then delphi ever could.
0
Marius
3/2/2013 11:04:08 AM
Thank you.

Ok. This does make sense.

Mike

> {quote:title=Marco Cantu wrote:}{quote}
> > Documentation say it can be installed on linux and use fpc, announcement says no.
> > We need to know if it will work on fpc/lazarus or dont.
> 
> The license says you can use it with Embarcadero development tools.
> 
> > Adittional, im a anydca subscriber dont get a mail from wmb and i send a email for news, nop response. What more i must do?
> 
> This should be coming shortly. sorry lost track of it. It will let you 
> have FireDAC (including updates) until your maintenance expires. 
> Afterwards, you will be able to renew it (currently at 150$/year).
> 
> -- 
> --
> Marco Cantu (Embarcadero)
0
Michael
3/2/2013 11:05:01 AM
german gentile wrote:

>And more over. That are the clear signal that will not ENHANCE
>anydac, the opossite. 

I'm very sure they will enhance it but it might not be in the corner
you like. Like you this take-over worries me because personally I don't
think Dmitry will stay long with Embarcadero because in the long run
they might have different idea's about the product. But thats just a
guess for now, we will see and i wish him the best.

FPC support is mostly a matter of 'some' compiler conditionals. For the
record, if you own a 6.x version/eula of anydac you can still use that
version for the coming years.
0
Marius
3/2/2013 11:16:46 AM
Michael Thuma wrote:

> Honestly. Documentation in fashion of a help file should not be
> required. The AnyDAC help file is very good. Complex things like the
> FMX cannot be explained in a help file. A help file documents the
> parts of the puzzle but does not show the picture.

Actually I find I need both.  A help file is very handy for dealing
with specific queries or giving reminders (especially, I find, when
switching between languages or development environments).

But I absolutely agree with Lars when he wrote this:

> A grave lack of explorable content (concept | breakdown | examples |
alternatives)

Such would be a massive help to me.


-- 
SteveT
0
Steve
3/2/2013 11:30:46 AM
Steve Thackery wrote:

>But I absolutely agree with Lars when he wrote this:
>
>> A grave lack of explorable content (concept | breakdown | examples
>>|
>alternatives)
>
>Such would be a massive help to me.

Indeed, countless of times the help was just not enough (or just
disapointing barebone text which doesn't explain anything) and we have
to resort to google and stackoverflow. Its a corner where Embarcadero
can do a lot better.
0
Marius
3/2/2013 1:29:22 PM
Kramer Costanza wrote:

> > {quote:title=Michael Thuma wrote:}{quote}
> > The great news is that Dmitry takes care for the DB stuff at EMB. 
> 
> As opposed to who, Kramer Costanza? Dmitry was already taking care of
> the product, so I don't see how this is "great news".

Hmmm... 

Doctor: "Mr. Costanza, your son had an accident, but great news, he
will fully recover".
Kramer: "Why is that great news? He was already completely healthy
before the accident".

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the
 executioners." -- Albert Camus
0
Rudy
3/2/2013 2:41:10 PM
Mason Wheeler wrote:

> > {quote:title=Nick Hodges wrote:}{quote}
> > Joseph Mitzen wrote:
> > 
> > > Well, if the crack Embarcadero documentation team is on the job,
> > > then things will definitely be... oh wait.
> > 
> > What is your complaint about the current documentation?
> 
> It's still on the Microsoft help engine that's so horribly broken

In what way "broken"? 

IME, it works fine and I like it much more than any other documentaton
system I know. It fully beats old WinHelp or HTMLHelp and the various
non standardized (except perhaps MAN pages, which are some kind of
useful standard) help facilities on various other platforms.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Before the war is ended, the war party assumes the divine right
 to denounce and silence all opposition to war as unpatriotic 
 and cowardly." -- Senator Robert M. La Follette
0
Rudy
3/2/2013 2:44:43 PM
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

> > {quote:title=Nick Hodges wrote:}{quote}
> > Joseph Mitzen wrote:
> > 
> > > Well, if the crack Embarcadero documentation team is on the job,
> > > then things will definitely be... oh wait.
> > 
> > What is your complaint about the current documentation?
> > 
> > -- 
> > Nick
> 
> Didn't XE3 ship with no documentation for record helpers?

Yes. All helpers should be considered undocumented features.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undocumented_feature

As was said and confirmed only a few weeks ago, record and other
helpers are not meant to be used in user code. They are, well, helpers
for the R&D team to achieve certain features. That is why only a
minimal implementation is provided (they only implemented what they
themselves needed) and why it is not documented.

And I know that class helpers are documented. I think they should have
omitted that part of the documentation to make them truly undocumented.
-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Well-timed silence hath more eloquence than speech."
 -- Martin Fraquhar Tupper
0
Rudy
3/2/2013 2:51:01 PM
> {quote:title=Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:}{quote}
> Doctor: "Mr. Costanza, your son had an accident, but great news, he
> will fully recover".
> Kramer: "Why is that great news? He was already completely healthy
> before the accident".
> 
That comparison is more or less the same as saying that AnyDAC were in dire straits (the accident you mentioned), but now when Embarcadero has bought
it it will be much better again.

If not, then the latter part was true to begin with, and no accident happened.
0
Jan
3/2/2013 2:56:00 PM
> {quote:title=Marius . wrote:}
> FPC support is mostly a matter of 'some' compiler conditionals. For the
> record, if you own a 6.x version/eula of anydac you can still use that
> version for the coming years.
> {quote}

I renew my subscription on december. I put my money there to have full support of any updates for a year. And you are trying toi say to me it maybe work in future versions with some ifdef? Seriously?
0
german
3/2/2013 3:04:07 PM
> {quote:title=Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:}{quote}
> Joseph Mitzen wrote:
> 
> > > {quote:title=Nick Hodges wrote:}{quote}
> > > Joseph Mitzen wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Well, if the crack Embarcadero documentation team is on the job,
> > > > then things will definitely be... oh wait.
> > > 
> > > What is your complaint about the current documentation?
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Nick
> > 
> > Didn't XE3 ship with no documentation for record helpers?
> 
> Yes. All helpers should be considered undocumented features.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undocumented_feature
> 
> As was said and confirmed only a few weeks ago, record and other
> helpers are not meant to be used in user code. They are, well, helpers
> for the R&D team to achieve certain features. That is why only a
> minimal implementation is provided (they only implemented what they
> themselves needed) and why it is not documented.
> 
> And I know that class helpers are documented. I think they should have
> omitted that part of the documentation to make them truly undocumented.

Does this mean that any String.somefunctionnamehere shouldn't be used at all?
Using those would be using those class/recordhelpers (which isn't meant to be used in user code as you said).

Why on earth would Embarcadero waste time implementing those (the string and whatnot helpers), if they weren't meant to be used?
Or is that something they did on the side because they were bored?

Them not being documented.. well, there's quite alot not documented regarding Delphi, or rather, maybe it's documented in some remote place (or with an illogical index tag) but since
the documentation seems to works mainly for C++ Builder, that wouldn't be a surprise.

Most of the time I'm more likely to encounter the documentation for c++, VBScript,JScript etc regarding whatever I'm looking for than the relevant documentation for delphi.
At least if it's regarding the language itself.
0
Jan
3/2/2013 3:07:31 PM
> {quote:title=Nick Hodges wrote:}{quote}
> Marco announces FireDAC:
> 
> http://blog.marcocantu.com/blog/firedac_announced.html
> 
> -- 
> Nick

Hi.

None of Dmitry or Marco answered questions posed by *german gentile*. Interestingly enough AnyDAC (FireDAC whatever you call it) has certain features, upgrade policies and from the acquisiton by EMBT many have been removed.

I have a valid license until January 2014, Dmitry did an update (upgrade) to the product 02/27/2013 and this is the date that I still can not get my upgrade.

Pay AnyDAC update (months before expiry) for a year for improvements and now is that I must buy a new license of Delphi XX additional which did not offer anything new in terms of developing my applications; just to get my already paid updates. Please tell me what part of this is correct?

I'm not a businessman, I'm just a simple developer, but I know when you're scrubbing customers.

Sorry for my poor english.
0
Rolphy
3/2/2013 3:12:58 PM
"Rudy Velthuis" wrote on Sat, 2 Mar 2013 06:51:01 -0800:

> Yes. All helpers should be considered undocumented features.

Unfortunately autocomplete doesn't care about such considerations,
apparently!

-- 
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
0
Brandon
3/2/2013 3:16:34 PM
> Does this mean that any String.somefunctionnamehere shouldn't be used at all?
> Using those would be using those class/recordhelpers (which isn't meant to be
> used in user code as you said).

No, he said defining custom helpers isn't intended to be a product feature from R&D's point of view. Using standard ones is another matter.

> Why on earth would Embarcadero waste time implementing those (the string
> and whatnot helpers), if they weren't meant to be used?

The string helper is to allow FMX code to be single sourced between the desktop and upcoming mobile compilers, similar to how class helpers were introduced as a bridging mechanism for VCL.NET. That's the reason why helpers can be annoyingly half-baked when considered as a feature for their own sake...
0
Chris
3/2/2013 3:23:42 PM
german gentile wrote:

>I renew my subscription on december. I put my money there to have
>full support of any updates for a year. 

We probably do the same in august, Under protest but voila ..

>And you are trying toi say to
>me it maybe work in future versions with some ifdef? Seriously?

No, new versions will probably not work under fpc at some point in
time, so i would just use the old version of anydac for lazarus and use
firedac for delphi.
0
Marius
3/2/2013 3:29:22 PM
> {quote:title=Chris Rolliston wrote:}{quote}
> The string helper is to allow FMX code to be single sourced between the desktop and upcoming mobile compilers, similar to how class helpers were introduced as a bridging mechanism for VCL.NET. >That's the reason why helpers can be annoyingly half-baked when considered as a feature for their own sake...
It's more or less the only new (language) feature in XE3, or apparently at the most talked about.
The rest were FMX and C++ x64.
0
Jan
3/2/2013 4:07:42 PM
> And yes, is stupid by EMB drop support to fpc.

You can claim it is not good for the Pascal developer community, but how 
comes this is stupid from Embarcadero? Where the library final, no 
source code to be touched, I'd agree.

But given we will further develop FireDAC in terms of features and of 
supported platforms, having to support a different language dialect is a 
significant cost. Providing close no no value to Embarcadero as a 
company, beside showing good will to the Pascal community at large.

> Are they worried about loosing market?

There the FCP market large, maybe we could sell components and services. 
Seems it is a much smaller market, money wise. There are quite a few 
people out there who tend to forget Embarcadero is a company. I saw 
comment (not from you), saying Embarcadero is greedy because they want 
to earn money. Well, if we don't earn money, we'll easily stop 
developing Delphi, which ultimately would be the worst outcome to most 
of our customers.

> former anydac customers are delphi customers also, embarcadero, wake up!

I don't understand this equation. I know there are Delphi 7 users who 
moved to FPC. I understand some of the reasons, including cost. Fine. 
But they aren't currently and have likely never been Embarcadero customers.

Should we start offering components for Visual Studio users? There are 
more former Delphi customers using it, probably.

-- 
--
Marco Cantu (Embarcadero)
0
Marco
3/2/2013 5:37:58 PM
> None of Dmitry or Marco answered questions posed by *german gentile*.

I did reply, but he is not really asking question, rather telling us 
what we should do.

> Pay AnyDAC update (months before expiry) for a year for improvements and now is that
> I must buy a new license of Delphi XX additional

As a customer, you can have FireDAC and keep using AnyDAC as is and 
FireDAC with older versions of Embarcadero Delphi product, so you don't 
need to buy a new license of Delphi.

> I'm not a businessman, I'm just a simple developer, but I know when you're scrubbing customers.

We let the license and product code quite open, compared to what a 
company will generally do, imho. And we are offering free support for 
the given terms and free migration to FireDAC to existing users.

-- 
--
Marco Cantu (Embarcadero)
0
Marco
3/2/2013 5:45:00 PM
> {quote:title=Marco Cantu wrote:}{quote}
> As a customer, you can have FireDAC and keep using AnyDAC as is and 
> FireDAC with older versions of Embarcadero Delphi product, so you don't 
> need to buy a new license of Delphi.
> 
> 
> We let the license and product code quite open, compared to what a 
> company will generally do, imho. And we are offering free support for 
> the given terms and free migration to FireDAC to existing users.
> 
> -- 
> --
> Marco Cantu (Embarcadero)

If is so, then I would like to get the update. How can I get it??
0
Rolphy
3/2/2013 7:08:49 PM
On 02/03/2013 14:51, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
>
> Yes. All helpers should be considered undocumented features.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undocumented_feature
>
> As was said and confirmed only a few weeks ago, record and other
> helpers are not meant to be used in user code. They are, well, helpers
> for the R&D team to achieve certain features. That is why only a
> minimal implementation is provided (they only implemented what they
> themselves needed) and why it is not documented.
>
> And I know that class helpers are documented. I think they should have
> omitted that part of the documentation to make them truly undocumented.
>
I need to get some of this koolaid
0
David
3/2/2013 8:50:12 PM
> It's more or less the only new (language) feature in XE3,
> or apparently at the most talked about.
> The rest were FMX and C++ x64.

.... and the sky is blue on a nice day. All true statements, but none of them negate the original point ;-)

That said, re-reading Rudy's post, he does indeed seem to be taking the harder view that even using the stock helper types isn't intended - I think I'd better take back denying he didn't! Not sure I'd agree with him if so though (cf. https://twitter.com/kylix_rd/status/239059321307148297).
0
Chris
3/2/2013 9:54:32 PM
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:

> > As was said and confirmed only a few weeks ago, record and other
> > helpers are not meant to be used in user code. They are, well,
> > helpers for the R&D team to achieve certain features. That is why
> > only a minimal implementation is provided (they only implemented
> > what they themselves needed) and why it is not documented.
> > 
> > And I know that class helpers are documented. I think they should
> > have omitted that part of the documentation to make them truly
> > undocumented.
> 
> Does this mean that any String.somefunctionnamehere shouldn't be used
> at all? 

Of course you can use it. You should just not expect much of it for
your own implementations. When I wrote "are not meant to be used in
user code" I meant you should not write your own helper code and expect
everything to work.
-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"You get what anyone gets; you get a lifetime."
 -- Death, Neil Gaiman Comic Sandman
0
Rudy
3/2/2013 10:04:01 PM
Brandon Staggs wrote:

> "Rudy Velthuis" wrote on Sat, 2 Mar 2013 06:51:01 -0800:
> 
> > Yes. All helpers should be considered undocumented features.
> 
> Unfortunately autocomplete doesn't care about such considerations,
> apparently!

That may be.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems."
 -- Paul Erdos
0
Rudy
3/2/2013 10:04:40 PM
David Heffernan wrote:

> > As was said and confirmed only a few weeks ago, record and other
> > helpers are not meant to be used in user code. They are, well,
> > helpers for the R&D team to achieve certain features. That is why
> > only a minimal implementation is provided (they only implemented
> > what they themselves needed) and why it is not documented.
> > 
> > And I know that class helpers are documented. I think they should
> > have omitted that part of the documentation to make them truly
> > undocumented.
> > 
> I need to get some of this koolaid

No need for sarcastic comments. This does not come from me. I merely
report what has been said for several years now, by Embacadero. It was
also said that they may disappear when they are not required anymore.

Just read it for yourself. It was discussed here, and confirmed by
Allen Bauer and by Nick Hodges as being the current official view on
helpers.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Everyone likes to say Hitler did this and Hitler did that. But
 the truth is Hitler did very little. He was a world class
 asshole, but the evil actually done, from the death camps to
 World War Two, was all done by citizens who were afraid to
 question if what they were told by their government was the
 truth or not, and who because they did not want to admit to
 themselves that they were afraid to question the government,
 refused to see the truth behind the Reichstag Fire, refused to
 see the invasion by Poland was a staged fake, and followed
 Hitler into national disaster."
 -- Michael Rivero
0
Rudy
3/2/2013 10:08:52 PM
> {quote:title=Marco Cantu wrote:}
> > And yes, is stupid by EMB drop support to fpc.
> 
> You can claim it is not good for the Pascal developer community, but how 
> comes this is stupid from Embarcadero? Where the library final, no 
> source code to be touched, I'd agree.

Is very simple, Marco. EMB don't offer ANY option for release linux application. Given the roadmap promises never accomplished, your comments about linux is out of the main focus, it will never happen. Lets face it.

So, there's a lot of Delphi users working in that way, as i do. I use DELPHI IDE for code all my projects and lazarus/fpc only for make minor touches needed to produce LINUX app. 
EMB probably never will have competence coming for FPC or lazarus, because lazarus is years ago the quality of delphi ide. And why is silly complicate ever more linux support to delphi user? 
This is really silly, stupid, unnecesary let your customers without the chance to produce linux app with other compilers. THAT situation just PUSH the delphi customers needing linux solutions to SEARCH for another options and drop Delphi at all!
What i always say to NIck when he was product manager and now tell you is EMB must WORK together with FPC! And , let me say it, you already take FPC on previous release and USE for produce iOS application, so , where is the problem? You must concentrate in produce a amazing librayr and AMAZING IDE!

Is clear now? Think again, EMB marketeners, you don't think it well the first time IMHO. 

> But given we will further develop FireDAC in terms of features and of 
> supported platforms, having to support a different language dialect is a 
> significant cost. Providing close no no value to Embarcadero as a 
> company, beside showing good will to the Pascal community at large.

Common! It was do for a single person! Do you size the amount of time needed for it? Really?

> There the FCP market large, maybe we could sell components and services. 
> Seems it is a much smaller market, money wise. 

You ever explore that?  You ever make some presumptions of what can happens if delphi support fpc compiler on the IDE and release linux applications?

> There are quite a few 
> people out there who tend to forget Embarcadero is a company. I saw 
> comment (not from you), saying Embarcadero is greedy because they want 
> to earn money. Well, if we don't earn money, we'll easily stop 
> developing Delphi, which ultimately would be the worst outcome to most 
> of our customers.

Thanks for say , not for me at all. I respect the company principle of earning money.  I even buy release of delphi i never use to support embarcadero, figure it.... 
I understand that because i live from this also. Is not the complain here EMB makes money. My complain is this NON SENSE shot in the face to people like me having today Pascal servers using Anydac libraries running on linux. Simple. Seems like a marketer without any need let us orphans, taking a stupid decision with no impact on the money EMB will perceive but with terrorific impact to delphi customers in my situation.

> 
> > former anydac customers are delphi customers also, embarcadero, wake up!
> 
> I don't understand this equation. I know there are Delphi 7 users who 
> moved to FPC. I understand some of the reasons, including cost. Fine. 

You really think FPC users motives are cost? Marco, i believe you know FPC community ... Im really worried you don't now at all! See the list! More of them are DELPHI USERS! A lot of them are FORMER delphi users. They drop delphi because that LIND of UNILATERAL decisions! Not money! They need support another platforms!
 
> Should we start offering components for Visual Studio users? There are 
> more former Delphi customers using it, probably.

Let me think... following the line of decisions taked for your managers have a lot of sense. No wait! Thinking better i strongly suggest you mention on the next big brain marketers meeting! I think you will gain a big applause and maybe a salary increment!

Edited by: german gentile on Mar 2, 2013 4:08 PM
0
german
3/2/2013 10:09:33 PM
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:

> > {quote:title=Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:}{quote}
> > Doctor: "Mr. Costanza, your son had an accident, but great news, he
> > will fully recover".
> > Kramer: "Why is that great news? He was already completely healthy
> > before the accident".
> > 
> That comparison is more or less the same as saying that AnyDAC were
> in dire straits

No, it just says that "it is great news that Dmitri works on it
himself" is indeed great news for those who appreciate Dmitri and his
skills and feared it might be taken over by Embarcadero without any
cooperation with Dmitri, despite "Kramer"'s response.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Beware of the man whose god is in the skies."
 -- George Bernard Shaw
0
Rudy
3/2/2013 10:13:11 PM
On 02/03/2013 22:08, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> David Heffernan wrote:
>
>>> As was said and confirmed only a few weeks ago, record and other
>>> helpers are not meant to be used in user code. They are, well,
>>> helpers for the R&D team to achieve certain features. That is why
>>> only a minimal implementation is provided (they only implemented
>>> what they themselves needed) and why it is not documented.
>>>
>>> And I know that class helpers are documented. I think they should
>>> have omitted that part of the documentation to make them truly
>>> undocumented.
>>>
>> I need to get some of this koolaid
>
> No need for sarcastic comments. This does not come from me. I merely
> report what has been said for several years now, by Embacadero. It was
> also said that they may disappear when they are not required anymore.
>
> Just read it for yourself. It was discussed here, and confirmed by
> Allen Bauer and by Nick Hodges as being the current official view on
> helpers.
>

Read my Twitter conversation with Allen on 24 Aug 2012. Also read these 
Embarcadero blogs:

http://blogs.embarcadero.com/michaelswindell/2012/09/15/34860
http://blogs.embarcadero.com/medington/index.php/2012/10/03/xe3-rtl-changes-a-closer-look-at-tstringhelper/

And then this one from Marco:

http://blog.marcocantu.com/blog/delphixe3_record_helpers.html

It seems pretty obvious to me that nextgen is going to have a rooted 
type system. Is going to have zero based string indexing. And the string 
record helper is going to help us migrate. And that's a fine thing. And 
extension methods / helpers are a good thing. Nice sugar coating. And 
it's clear that the official Emba line is that we are to feel free to 
use string helper, just as the RTL does. Otherwise the blogs that 
trumpeted the XE3 release would not have been written.
0
David
3/2/2013 11:19:28 PM
> {quote:title=Marco Cantu wrote:}{quote}
> But given we will further develop FireDAC in terms of features and of 
> supported platforms, having to support a different language dialect is a 
> significant cost. Providing close no no value to Embarcadero as a 
> company, beside showing good will to the Pascal community at large.

Wouldn't the value come from those who purchase the product to use with FPC, the same as it came for the original producer of AnyDAC? That person had a company too and apparently found it economically viable (presumably). 

In a way it does end up looking bad though. When Embarcadero needed an ARM compiler *now* and didn't have one they chose to use FPC with from what I've been able to gather (at least publicly) no financial donation or contribution of code. Now they've purchased a product that supported FPC and will discontinue support in future versions. Worse, it seems like the EULA (what is it with Embarcadero and EULAs?) specifically forbids using the product with anything other than Delphi and C++ Builder. FPC never am
ended their license to prohibit Embarcadero from using it. I doubt that will sit well in the open source community, which is much, much larger than the FPC community. Regardless of intent, some might view it in a negative light.


> Should we start offering components for Visual Studio users? There are 
> more former Delphi customers using it, probably.

How would that be any different from PHP for Delphi? From a financial perspective, yes, as long as there's sufficient developers, why not branch out and support Visual Studio users? There's a lot of them, and if the offerings were of high quality they might be attracted to examine other Embarcadero products, including Delphi. If there's Pascal for .Net, what's wrong with components for Visual Studio?
0
Joseph
3/2/2013 11:53:17 PM
> {quote:title=Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:}{quote}
> No need for sarcastic comments. This does not come from me. I merely
> report what has been said for several years now, by Embacadero. It was
> also said that they may disappear when they are not required anymore.
> 
> Just read it for yourself. It was discussed here, and confirmed by
> Allen Bauer and by Nick Hodges as being the current official view on
> helpers.
> 
Actually, I don't see how class/record/intrisic helpers could be removed or changed much anymore.
Well, they could, but then they'll have to redo all their code relying on the same (and then the issues that made them necessary probably reappears).
0
Jan
3/3/2013 12:10:19 AM
David Heffernan wrote:

> And then this one from Marco:
> 
> http://blog.marcocantu.com/blog/delphixe3_record_helpers.html
> 
> It seems pretty obvious to me that nextgen is going to have a rooted 
> type system. Is going to have zero based string indexing. And the
> string record helper is going to help us migrate.

Yes, they will "help them migrate" indeed, and then they can get rid of
helpers, because the rooted types will have methods of their own, so no
need for any helpers to provide them anymore.

What I expected.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

The Golden Rule Of Arts And Sciences: Whoever has the gold makes 
the rules.
0
Rudy
3/4/2013 3:19:05 AM
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:

> > {quote:title=Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:}{quote}
> > No need for sarcastic comments. This does not come from me. I merely
> > report what has been said for several years now, by Embacadero. It
> > was also said that they may disappear when they are not required
> > anymore.
> > 
> > Just read it for yourself. It was discussed here, and confirmed by
> > Allen Bauer and by Nick Hodges as being the current official view on
> > helpers.
> > 
> Actually, I don't see how class/record/intrisic helpers could be
> removed or changed much anymore. 

If the rooted types Marco and Allen mentioned will come into existence,
they will have their own methods, and there will be no need for helpers
anymore to do that.

But we'll see. If they really want to support helpers, then they should
do a proper implementation, not the ad-hoc stuff they have now.
Currently, only what Embarcadero needs to mimic a rooted type system is
implemented.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"He can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any 
 man I know." -- Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865)
0
Rudy
3/4/2013 3:38:39 AM
David Heffernan wrote:

> http://blog.marcocantu.com/blog/delphixe3_record_helpers.html
> 
> It seems pretty obvious to me that nextgen is going to have a rooted 
> type system. Is going to have zero based string indexing. And the
> string record helper is going to help us migrate. And that's a fine
> thing. And extension methods / helpers are a good thing. Nice sugar
> coating. And it's clear that the official Emba line is that we are to
> feel free to use string helper, just as the RTL does.

Of course you are free to USE them, that is what they were designed
for. You should not necessarily write your own, though. But they will
probably be replaced by properly rooted types, not just types that get
some methods through helpers.

And once the rooted types get their own methods, you can use the same
code, but the string will not be accessed via a helper anymore, you'll
be accessing the methods of the string itself. That is why they say
they use such helpers to **migrate** to a rooted type system.

Just like they used helpers to migrate to .NET and mimic TObject on
..NET's System.Object (and a few other classes, like streams, etc.).
They are exactly what they call them: helpers. They don't call them
categories or extensions or anything similar.
-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"There are many kinds of people in the world.  Are you one of 
 them?"
0
Rudy
3/4/2013 3:59:46 AM
I understand your position, believe me. I do have Delphi-like software 
running on Linux, like my blog.

But developing, testing, supporting multiple platforms is a cost. 
FireDAC is currently NOT using a lot of language features that would 
make it work better, and now it has to support the mobile "dialect"of 
Delphi, which makes backwards compatibility (and FPC compatibility even 
more complex).

 > What i always say to NIck when he was product manager and now tell 
you is EMB must WORK together with FPC! And , let me say it, you already 
take FPC on previous release and USE for produce iOS application, so , 
where is the problem? You must concentrate in produce a amazing librayr 
and AMAZING IDE!

I beg to disagree. We are investing a lot in our new compiler tool 
chain, and the compiler is one of our main assets... and it has always 
been a key element of Delphi. The problem is clear when you consider we 
had to produce a different FireMonkey for the FPC compiler. Nothing 
against it, it is a great compiler. But it isn't Delphi, sorry. So we 
are going to use our compiler for iOS going forward. And for Android in 
the future.

> You really think FPC users motives are cost? Marco, i believe you know FPC community ...

Some of them are. Others are certainly looking for the platforms we 
don't support with Delphi. Others need specific features we don't have. 
But being free is an incentive.

-- 
--
Marco Cantu (Embarcadero)
0
Marco
3/4/2013 8:55:01 AM
> Worse, it seems like the EULA (what is it
with Embarcadero and EULAs?) specifically forbids using the product with
anything other than Delphi and C++ Builder.

It is a portion of the RAD Studio product now, so it has the same rules. 
Like you cannot take the VCL or FireMonkey or dbExpress and use those 
outside of our product.

-- 
--
Marco Cantu (Embarcadero)
0
Marco
3/4/2013 9:03:23 AM
On 01/03/2013 14:36, Mason Wheeler wrote:
>> {quote:title=Nick Hodges wrote:}{quote}
>> Joseph Mitzen wrote:
>>
>>> Well, if the crack Embarcadero documentation team is on the job, then
>>> things will definitely be... oh wait.
>>
>> What is your complaint about the current documentation?
>
> It's still on the Microsoft help engine that's so horribly broken that even
> Microsoft stopped using it years ago, for starters...
>

As long as its on the 'Google' help engine, I'm reasonably happy :-) 
(although F1 integration would be nice).

CB
0
Charles
3/4/2013 10:35:20 AM
> {quote:title=Marco Cantu wrote:}{quote}
> But developing, testing, supporting multiple platforms is a cost. 
> FireDAC is currently NOT using a lot of language features that would 
> make it work better, and now it has to support the mobile "dialect"of 
> Delphi, which makes backwards compatibility (and FPC compatibility even 
> more complex).

I have some words to say about this.
1) FPC always go behind Delphi to becomes compatible. If EMB start colaborating on that direction the language specifics you named can be added for they quick.\
2) The FPC support means a lot of people (including me) buy anydac in the past. I buy a full year licence on december. Somebody must responde to me for a full year of support on linux. Simple.
3) That FPC support give clear revenues to Anydac, again, im a example. I will not renew Anydac license anymore because i need FPC support. If firedac dont support it i will search for another company doing this. Is not a option for me do that EMB do, just saying to my customers we drop our linux servers.

EMB is acting in a stupid way, damaging to customers, and making them searching for another solutions outisde EMB. Again, im the more visible sample.

If you really dont see this or dont have any way to change this direction we havea serious problem here.

And if you think it onlyw cares to me, see delhifeeds. My post about this is the more popular now and people reading that are refernts of delphi comunnity...

Hope EMB changes that position.
0
german
3/4/2013 1:02:33 PM
On 04/03/2013 03:59, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> Of course you are free to USE them, that is what they were designed
> for. You should not necessarily write your own, though. But they will
> probably be replaced by properly rooted types, not just types that get
> some methods through helpers.
>

Contrast that statement of yours with this one of yours:

 > As was said and confirmed only a few weeks ago, record and other
 > helpers are not meant to be used in user code. They are, well, helpers
 > for the R&D team to achieve certain features.


So, which is it?
0
David
3/4/2013 2:53:59 PM
David Heffernan wrote:

> On 04/03/2013 03:59, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> > Of course you are free to USE them, that is what they were designed
> > for. You should not necessarily write your own, though. But they
> > will probably be replaced by properly rooted types, not just types
> > that get some methods through helpers.
> > 
> 
> Contrast that statement of yours with this one of yours:
> 
>  > As was said and confirmed only a few weeks ago, record and other
>  > helpers are not meant to be used in user code. They are, well,
> helpers  > for the R&D team to achieve certain features.
> 
> 
> So, which is it?

As I said, a few messages later, I meant that you should not write your
own.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Elegance is not a dispensable luxury but a factor that decides 
 between success and failure." -- Edsger Dijkstra
0
Rudy
3/4/2013 4:33:40 PM
On 04/03/2013 16:33, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> David Heffernan wrote:
>
>> On 04/03/2013 03:59, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
>>> Of course you are free to USE them, that is what they were designed
>>> for. You should not necessarily write your own, though. But they
>>> will probably be replaced by properly rooted types, not just types
>>> that get some methods through helpers.
>>>
>>
>> Contrast that statement of yours with this one of yours:
>>
>>   > As was said and confirmed only a few weeks ago, record and other
>>   > helpers are not meant to be used in user code. They are, well,
>> helpers  > for the R&D team to achieve certain features.
>>
>>
>> So, which is it?
>
> As I said, a few messages later, I meant that you should not write your
> own.
>
So it's OK for Embarcadero to write them to support their libraries, but 
it's not reasonable for us to write them to support ours. That's perverse.
0
David
3/4/2013 5:10:06 PM
On 02/28/2013 05:38 PM, Marco Cantu wrote:
> On 3/1/13 12:32 AM, Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:
>> I just have to agree with some here.. The price is too high!
>> And if that's the introductory price. Ouch.
>
> The price is in line with the former AnyDAC price and similar third
> party tools. What would be a good price for you (just curious, not that
> we are changing it)?
>

I agree with Jan. The price seems a little high. I would expect $400 regular price and 
$300 intro price. The way it looks now, $500 will be regular price. Ouch.

If Emb maintains a $500 price tag, it better offer some spectacular features for the 
money. Maybe a great MVC development environment.
0
Kyle
3/4/2013 7:21:32 PM
> 2) The FPC support means a lot of people (including me) buy anydac in the past. I buy a full year licence on december. Somebody must responde to me for a full year of support on linux. Simple.
> 3) That FPC support give clear revenues to Anydac, again, im a example. I will not renew Anydac license anymore because i need FPC support. If firedac dont support it i will search for another company doing this. Is not a option for me do that EMB do, just saying to my customers we drop our linux servers.
> EMB is acting in a stupid way, damaging to customers, and making them searching for another solutions outisde EMB. Again, im the more visible sample.

I absolutely agree. I wish I knew this mess was going to happen when I'd renewed my AnyDAC subscription in December. Now they tell me the Linux support is gone, I cannot use anything but Delphi to develop with AnyDAC (sorry, FireDuck) - obviously, I am not going to renew/update anything related with this product anymore. These days I have way more projects in Lazarus/Linux than Windows (the iOS craze must be some western thing, never happened here), and I am fully with german on this case.
0
Alexander
3/5/2013 4:52:03 AM
> I buy a full year licence on december. Somebody must responde
> to me for a full year of support on linux.

You can decide to keep using Dmitry's technical support until your 
maintenance expires.

> firedac dont support it i will search for another company doing this.
> Is not a option for me do that EMB do, just saying to my customers we
> drop our linux servers.

You can keep using AnyDAC if you choose to do so. But I understand the 
need for updates, which won't be provided. We could say "use the current 
version of FireDAC with FPC", but will it make any real different? It is 
the same code you have, and if we say we won't update it in the future, 
as this is too expensive for us, you'll be in the same situation... 
unless I'm missing something.

> EMB is acting in a stupid way

Sorry, but I disagree. We understand we are discontinuing a feature for 
some customers (some of which are not even our customers), but we are 
evaluating costs and benefits. Our view is different from yours on this, 
which I do understand.

> If you really dont see this or dont have any way to change this
> direction we havea serious problem here.

You mean, if you don't act in the best way for your specific needs we 
have a problem? Following a few thousand customers specific needs will 
be more than an issue!

> And if you think it onlyw cares to me, see delhifeeds. My post about
> this is the more popular now and people reading that are refernts of
> delphi comunnity...

If not saying it affects only you. I'm saying it affects a small group 
of our customers. Others are in a different position (we need only FPC 
support, we want to keep using Delphi 5...).

> Hope EMB changes that position.

It is always possible, honestly. But we don't see the numbers behind 
this request.

-- 
--
Marco Cantu (Embarcadero)
0
Marco
3/5/2013 9:25:22 AM
David Heffernan wrote:

> > As I said, a few messages later, I meant that you should not write
> > your own.
> > 
> So it's OK for Embarcadero to write them to support their libraries,
> but it's not reasonable for us to write them to support ours. That's
> perverse.

Not perverse. It all results from the fact that helpers are helpers for
Embarcadero and no more.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"A woman is an occasional pleasure but a cigar is always a smoke."
 -- Groucho Marx
0
Rudy
3/5/2013 10:00:56 AM
Chris Rolliston wrote:

> > It's more or less the only new (language) feature in XE3,
> > or apparently at the most talked about.
> > The rest were FMX and C++ x64.
> 
> ... and the sky is blue on a nice day. All true statements, but none
> of them negate the original point ;-)
> 
> That said, re-reading Rudy's post, he does indeed seem to be taking
> the harder view that even using the stock helper types isn't intended

Yes, but I softened that a few messages later on. Of course you can use
the existing ones developed by Embarcadero (that is in fact why they
feature exists, so you can e.g. treat strings as 0-based independent of
compiler settings, as the so called NextGen compiler seems to do), but
I meant you should not be using the concept for your own purposes, i.e.
you should not use the feature to implement your own helpers.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Do, or do not. There is no 'try'."
 -- Yoda ('The Empire Strikes Back')
0
Rudy
3/5/2013 5:29:29 PM
On 05/03/2013 10:00, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> David Heffernan wrote:
>
>>> As I said, a few messages later, I meant that you should not write
>>> your own.
>>>
>> So it's OK for Embarcadero to write them to support their libraries,
>> but it's not reasonable for us to write them to support ours. That's
>> perverse.
>
> Not perverse. It all results from the fact that helpers are helpers for
> Embarcadero and no more.
>
If they are useful to Embarcadero then they can be useful to others. I 
find them useful in certain situations. Would you deny that they could 
be useful to me?
0
David
3/5/2013 7:33:23 PM
> {quote:title=Marius . wrote:}{quote}
> Removing fpc is a blow for us, but voila there are other db components
> out there. But whats next in this component ratrace, DevExpress /
> buyout FastReport? Whats the point of all those bundled products these
> day's..
> 
EMB are not aiming at buying everything. They needed to solve the DB issue.

> >I cannot imagine that people will not go for FPC... on the long run.
> 
> Thats what i have been thinking for a couple of years, but in the end
> we are still on delphi. Taking that road is a step back in some area's
> (specially components) but the differences are getting smaller and
> smaller. Keep in mind that fpc/laz can do a lot more in the
> multiplatform area then delphi ever could.

I don't talk about FPC/Laz in this point exclusively for the moment. If you believe in the Delphi approach stay with Delphi. I also don't have a problem with a Delphi Prof. 

The history of AnyDAC:
a) Once a company loved the BDE and was not happy with DBX
b) The same company offered assistance to Borland in order to get DBX work - Borland did not even listen - the dreamed of world dominance in the area the total integrated tooled development environment with a development facility called BDS. Sales dreamed of Ferraris in order outperform the SAP sales stuff in the Porsches on the road to hell. BDE was annouced to become depricated and all the DB component vendors shipped development results in a state that could not even have been called quality, except Ja
son Wharton and Allround Automations (these have been the host souls these days). Borland wasted lot more of your money than EMB is in the position to do.
c) In an act of self defense the Delphi shop started almost from scratch (Oracle was vital, knowledge from NCOCI was reused), totally redesigned the whole DB access in order to make use of DBX drivers and some native drivers  ... 
d) Afterwards also crlab found out that it can make sense to sometimes ship something that could to a database;) and really became an attractive alternative, especially with the wire protocols. I also use the Oracle wire protocol via ODAC.
e) Anydac + ThinDAC
f)  AnyDAC at Remobjects, AnyDAC + DataAbstract
g) Evolution into what is AnyDAC or FireDAC today aggregating demands very often very special solutions. DB2 ISAM support ... all the experience was contentiously integrated.
g1) Companies started to ask for FPC/Laz support more and more. Mainly driven by the demand for 64bit Windows. Some used AnyDAC on Linux, me too. But I know the pain Dmitry deserved ... FPC/Laz was not always in version one. 

This is a guess:
AnyDAC vs. UniDAC (whole Devart Product Range) is David vs. Goliath especially because of .net. Both intersect somehow but imo they are totally different. AnyDAC is not a small number of users, I think many companies have chosen the 'unlimited' license. A typical Delphi  - it's good to have both situation if not on .net anyway. .net creates at least 10 times more attention and brings almost the same number more customers to VCL products if there is a demand because of existing developments. The demand for
 Delphi components is here but customers trust those a lot more that have .net components or .net products too. Somehow irrational but a crowd behavior.

FPC/Laz - UniDAC. At the moment a very good option. Wondering if the Linux support will remain this 'excellent' if there is no direct motivation. I am very happy in general with the evolution of Devart in general. Not sure if this small segment will be worth the effort, because it can happen of course that those who demanded FPC support will continue to demand. I have no absolut numbers. But wire protocols address some issues that count especially on Linux. No need to install client libraries, no deployme
nt - because of this reason why I will use it too for Linux - PostGresSQL in the focus.

Open source in my understanding - is gcc and things like these, Java, ... XCode ... none of these things are perfect and friction free. Try install an open source extension for native compilation designed for Tomcat into a modified version in JBOSS. You must go very plain... I fear a lot more the battle in the vendor world, when Microsoft continues loosing, young Oracle sales people will come to know that their company offer a database too, things like these ... the whole evolution with this IP things ...
 I already smell the evil around the corner also in our area.

EMB are not bad by intent. EMB were always very greedy, remembering the E/R Studio Laptop license and the E/R Studio viewer you had to pay extra ... on the other hand they had amazing products a lot too early. Those together with the Borland people... megalomania meets the penny pincher.

Those who keep Delphi alive are those who pay and especially Enterprise customers. Those need a solution for DB access that comes with Delphi. Insurance companies for example, ... governments, ... IT's who spend other peoples money. EMB will not buy Realthinclient I think. They will improve the datasnap. Devexpress has no reason to sell the VCL stuff - I don't know but I think Devexpress is 'bigger' than EMB, stronger/more powerfull indeed, great they are anyway.
0
Michael
3/5/2013 11:18:28 PM
> {quote:title=Nick Hodges wrote:}{quote}
> I think the help should be 100% HTML and 100% server-side.

Please, *No*.  Not 100% server-side.

I certainly don't mind a solution that allows you to select between server-side and client-side.  But I need the ability to develop without an Internet connection.  For that matter, I need the ability to use a computer without an Internet connection.  Based on current trends, I'm not sure how much longer I'll be able to buy a computer that functions without an Internet connection...
0
Jon
3/6/2013 12:13:41 AM
> {quote:title=Marco Cantu wrote:}
> You can decide to keep using Dmitry's technical support until your 
> maintenance expires.

And have no updates on a year. Is a big deal. Thanks Dmitry! Again!

> You mean, if you don't act in the best way for your specific needs we 
> have a problem? Following a few thousand customers specific needs will 
> be more than an issue!

Is ok and it have sense. I just believe a customers comunnity is based on confidence, not in this kind of attitudes.
But ok,  I undesrtand for EMB a customer like me, buying almost without interruption TP 5.5 and all delphi versions from 1 to XE2 is not a customer they matters anymore. The idiots at marketing think that, fine and well done! 
I will act according to that and start searching for another green fields, and yes i know, you dont care about that and is ok also! Wo cares! Delphi community will never be the same and EMB dont care either.

Sorry for disturb this happy community and hope a long life to Delphi.

Just trying to remember the emotion i feel reading your books and the coding fun using Turbo pascal first, and then delphi. Is not fun anymore.
 
I wish you great number$!
0
german
3/6/2013 3:04:09 AM
David Heffernan wrote:

> > Not perverse. It all results from the fact that helpers are helpers
> > for Embarcadero and no more.
> > 
> If they are useful to Embarcadero then they can be useful to others.

Hey, they are not forbidding you to use them. If you think you can get
a temporary advantage in using them, then do so, but at your own risk.

They just advise you not to use them. Big difference.

Fact is that, until now, they only implemented what they needed for
their purposes, no more. If they really want to go down that path, they
should do a proper extension implementation.
-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use
 as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how
 to use my telephone." -- Bjarne Stroustrup
0
Rudy
3/6/2013 3:23:32 AM
Nick Hodges wrote:

> Lars Fosdal wrote:
> 
> > - It lives on a platform so horrific that I prefer to visit the web
> > wiki version over using Ctrl-F1 - Little to no effective segregation
> > of RAD, C++, Delphi and various SDK content.  - Massive amounts of
> > holes and bare bones help - Incredibly poor cross referencing and
> > see also.  - A grave lack of explorable content (concept |
> > breakdown | examples | alternatives)
> 
> Well, that is fairly comprehensive.  ;-)
> 
> Can you imagine what the help would look like if it were to meet all
> of those requirements?  (Not that it shouldn't, it's just
> mind-boggling to think about....)
> 
> I think the help should be 100% HTML and 100% server-side.

I don't. I think it should be 100% client side. 

And it is HTML. You can even read it in a browser. Just open the
following link with Internet Explorer:

ms-help://embarcadero.rs_xe3/rad/What's_New_in_Delphi_and_C++Builder_XE2.html

Note that other browsers won't recognize ms-help://

-- 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)    http://www.teamb.com

"Because I do it with one small ship, I am called a terrorist. 
 You do it with a whole fleet and are called an emperor."
 -- A pirate, from St. Augustine's "City of God"
0
Rudy
3/6/2013 3:46:34 AM
> interruption TP 5.5 and all delphi versions from 1 to XE2 is not a
> customer they matters anymore.

Who said you are not a customer that matters? I wrote that we cannot 
gear company policies and directions and future development to the needs 
of a specific customer or a small group. That's a bit different.

Like we think iOS and Android are much bigger then WinRT, so we are 
leaving that platform behind. And some of our customers are complaining 
because they need that, and will have to use a different toolset (Prism, 
maybe, or C# in Visual Studio).

Specifically, we are very happy you can use FireDAC with XE2 (and older 
versions of Delphi). The only real disagreement is whether we need to 
keep developing FireDAC for FPC going forward or not.

I think you are reading too much into this, but this is (of course) my 
personal opinion.

-- 
--
Marco Cantu (Embarcadero)
0
Marco
3/6/2013 9:00:29 AM
> {quote:title=Jon Robertson wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=Nick Hodges wrote:}{quote}
> > I think the help should be 100% HTML and 100% server-side.
> 
> Please, *No*.  Not 100% server-side.
> 
> I certainly don't mind a solution that allows you to select between server-side and client-side.  But I need the ability to develop without an Internet connection.  For that matter, I need the ability to use a computer without an Internet connection.  Based on current trends, I'm not sure how much longer I'll be able to buy a computer that functions without an Internet connection...

+100

Help must be available offline.

Dalija Prasnikar
0
Dalija
3/6/2013 9:15:50 AM
> {quote:title=Marco Cantu wrote:}{quote}
> 
> Like we think iOS and Android are much bigger then WinRT, so we are 
> leaving that platform behind. And some of our customers are complaining 
> because they need that, and will have to use a different toolset (Prism, 
> maybe, or C# in Visual Studio).
> 

I think now would be a good time to ask for roadmap update. I need to know
what is planned for Delphi (not just for mobile extension) to be able to adjust
my plans. I also think that roadmap should have permanent link on product
page that will take you to the most recent roadmap.

Dalija Prasnikar
0
Dalija
3/6/2013 9:26:15 AM
> {quote:title=german gentile wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=Marco Cantu wrote:}
> > You can decide to keep using Dmitry's technical support until your 
> > maintenance expires.
> 
> And have no updates on a year. Is a big deal. Thanks Dmitry! Again!


Ask for YOUR money back. And after that you can still use AnyDAC. Just ask for your money back for the subscription.
0
Kramer
3/6/2013 10:15:28 AM
> {quote:title=german gentile wrote:}{quote}
> And have no updates on a year. Is a big deal. Thanks Dmitry! Again!

I guess loche was more or less correct in his interpretation of the AnyDAC eula change.
http://www.da-soft.com/forums/anydac-general-english/the-business-model-change-2.html#23051

I don't have AnyDAC, but I was close to buying it a day or so before the change was announced.
The reason I didn't buy was "let's think this over, and maybe get it tomorrow".

I don't know if this should be considered lucky or not though.
0
Jan
3/6/2013 2:14:25 PM
Mine had lapsed.
When i saw the announcement i contacted Dmitry direct so i could renew 
if still poss (before the ship sailed)
He emailed me back ,but i was too late. Doors closed

Then is was annoyed that i had missed the boat.

Then, later, like any person who missed catching the Titanic i felt 
relieved.


On 06/03/2013 04:14 PM, Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:
>> {quote:title=german gentile wrote:}{quote}
>> And have no updates on a year. Is a big deal. Thanks Dmitry! Again!
>
> I guess loche was more or less correct in his interpretation of the AnyDAC eula change.
> http://www.da-soft.com/forums/anydac-general-english/the-business-model-change-2.html#23051
>
> I don't have AnyDAC, but I was close to buying it a day or so before the change was announced.
> The reason I didn't buy was "let's think this over, and maybe get it tomorrow".
>
> I don't know if this should be considered lucky or not though.
>
0
sean
3/6/2013 3:22:51 PM
Jon,

| Please, No.  Not 100% server-side.

Ditto!!!  Presently, all of my apps are "free-standing!"  (With
embedded databases.)

| I certainly don't mind a solution that allows you to select between
| server-side and client-side.  But I need the ability to develop
| without an Internet connection.  For that matter, I need the ability
| to use a computer without an Internet connection.  Based on current
| trends, I'm not sure how much longer I'll be able to buy a computer
| that functions without an Internet connection...

<sigh> 

-- 

   Q 

03/06/2013 10:08:43

1.19.1.372  [Q'sBrokenToolBar] [Running on TQ]
0
Quentin
3/6/2013 6:09:55 PM
Am 06.03.2013 10:26, schrieb Dalija Prasnikar:
>> {quote:title=Marco Cantu wrote:}{quote}
>>
>> Like we think iOS and Android are much bigger then WinRT, so we are 
>> leaving that platform behind. And some of our customers are complaining 
>> because they need that, and will have to use a different toolset (Prism, 
>> maybe, or C# in Visual Studio).
>>
> 
> I think now would be a good time to ask for roadmap update. I need to know
> what is planned for Delphi (not just for mobile extension) to be able to adjust
> my plans. I also think that roadmap should have permanent link on product
> page that will take you to the most recent roadmap.
> 

+1 esp. also on the last part.
I'm tired to search for it every times as the URL changes every time a
new one is published.

Greetings

Markus
0
Markus
3/6/2013 6:43:17 PM
Dear Sir,

I've been wacthing your youtube presentations of Firedac and i decide to test those components
before mooving  on from XE to XE5..XE6.
So i download from Da-Soft Tool = D15 Architect, AnyDAC = 6.0.3 (Build 2713) Trial etc..and configure it as fallwoing:
================================
Connection definition parameters
================================
ConnectionDef=GEST_DB
DriverID=FB25
Database=C:\Program Files (x86)\Firebird\Fb25\Data\my_DataBase.FDB
User_Name=sysdba
Password=masterkey
Protocol=TCPIP
Server=localhost/3051  {remote connection using ZeBeDee client intalled as a service}
CharacterSet=WIN1252
PageSize=4096
Name=GEST_DB
================================
AnyDAC info (now a days FireDac)
================================
Tool = D15 Architect
AnyDAC = 6.0.3 (Build 2713) Trial
Defines = AnyDAC_32;AnyDAC_Unicode;AnyDAC_NOLOCALE_META;
  AnyDAC_MONITOR;AnyDAC_REGEXP
================================
Client info
================================
Loading driver FB25 ...
Brand = Firebird
Client version = 205029900
Client DLL name = C:\windows\system32\fbclient.dll
================================
Session info
================================
Current catalog = 
Current schema = 
Server version = WI-V2.5.2.26540 Firebird 2.5
WI-V2.5.2.26540 Firebird 2.5/tcp (MAXIMO)/P12         {my remote server}
WI-V2.5.2.26540 Firebird 2.5/tcp (SECRETARIADOG)/P12  {local client}


The above code works perfect, at design time ou run time, with or wihout the connectionDef( i mean configuring the ADConnection manualy).

However, when trying to put it to work at "starting up" my application(on create form) in order to get it more flexible, geting parameters value from an APP.INI file it doesn't work! 
I wonder why?

Here goes the code i'm trying to implement:

procedure TForm1.FormCreate(Sender: TObject);
begin

 ADConnection1.Close;
 ADConnection1.Params.Clear    ;
 ADConnection1.Params.Add ('Database:=C:\Program Files (x86)\Firebird\Fb25\Data\my_DataBase.FDB');
 ADConnection1.Params.Add ('User_Name=sysdba');
 ADConnection1.Params.Add ('Password=masterkey') ;
 ADConnection1.Params.Add ('Protocol=TCPIP');
 ADConnection1.Params.Add ('Server=localhost/3051');
 ADConnection1.Params.Add ('CharacterSet=WIN1252');
 ADConnection1.Params.Add ('PageSize=4096');
 ADConnection1.Params.Add ('DriverID=FB25'); *1
 ADConnection1.Connected:=True;   {it crash here}

end;


*1-at the ADDrivers.ini
{
[FB25]
BaseDriverID=IB
VendorLibWin32=C:\windows\system32\fbclient.dll
[IB]
BaseDriverID=IB
VendorLibWin32=C:\windows\system32\gds32.dll}

As far as i realise this code is supose to work. 
But i allways get the fallowing message:
[AnyDAC][Phys][IB]I/O error during "CreateFile (open)" operation for file "localhost/3051:"
Error while trying to open file 

Later i tryied it with download a tryal of Delphi XE6 and the very same happens

What am i doing wrong?
Can you help
Best regards
0
Utf
6/20/2014 1:15:14 PM
> {quote:title=Mário Reis wrote:}{quote}
> What am i doing wrong?

1) Posting a technical message to non-technical
2) Reviving an ancient thread that is over a year old
--
John Frazier (Embarcadero Newsgroup Admin)
0
John
6/20/2014 11:05:25 PM
> {quote:title=Nick Hodges wrote:}{quote}
> Can you imagine what the help would look like if it were to meet all of
> those requirements?  (Not that it shouldn't, it's just mind-boggling to
> think about....)

Something like an off-line version of the Sybase docs: http://infocenter.sybase.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.sybase.help.sqlanywhere.12.0.1/dbreference/delete-statement.html

Personally, the biggest issues for me is the lack of indexed keywords, and that I cannot filter out all the C++ junk by default. For example, try finding out exactly how the "in" operator works. If you enter it in the index search you just get some obscure C++ function declaration from the <locale> header. Or try searching for what the "static" keyword does, you'll have about 8 C++ hits and one Delphi hit hidden in the middle somewhere.

- Asbjørn
0
Utf
6/21/2014 7:25:54 PM
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Will the XE4 Client Server Pack for FireDac work properly with Delphi XE Professional? Will that provide the full Firedac functionality or is it limited? Is it dependent on functionality in the Enterprise product which is not in the Professional? And finally, will I have the license rights to market and sell the application I create? I understand it does not require dbexpress which has certain restrictions, correct? I would like to be able to evaluate it in an XE environment without upgrading everything just to try and work with it. Patrick Moloney wrote: > Will the XE4 Client Serve...

Delphi market non-existent?
It appears the development contracting market for Delphi has dried up. Is anyone finding contracts? Not employment, contract work. > {quote:title=Rich _ wrote:}{quote} > It appears the development contracting market for Delphi has dried up. Where? > Is anyone finding contracts? Not employment, contract work. Yes -- Regards Bruce McGee Glooscap Software > {quote:title=Bruce McGee wrote:}{quote} > > Where? The US. > > Yes BTW, are you keeping more than 2 people employed full-time? > {quote:title=Rich _ wrote:}{quote} > The US....

Delphi and Delphi for .Net
It seems that Delphi for .Net is slower than Delphi Win32 native applicaiton. I would like to know is it true all .Net application is slower than Win32 native applicaiton or it is Delphi for .Net only. Your information is great appreciated, Inung On 2011-06-21 18:20:17 +0100, Inung Huang said: > It seems that Delphi for .Net is slower than Delphi Win32 native applicaiton. > I would like to know is it true all .Net application is slower than > Win32 native applicaiton or it is Delphi for .Net only. If you are only running the code in the application once then, yes, yo...

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