Are there any Delphi apps on the iTunes or Mac App Store?

So XE2 has been out for a while now. Surely there must be some apps created 
with it on either app store (or otherwise).
Can someone point me out to those?
0
Martin
2/9/2012 8:59:50 PM
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> {quote:title=Martin Kammann wrote:}{quote}
> So XE2 has been out for a while now. Surely there must be some apps created 
> with it on either app store (or otherwise).
> Can someone point me out to those?

Anders has one:

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/anders-analog-clock/id475178939?mt=8

And I believe Bob Swart does too.

Note that you're not required to use the Mac App Store to deploy your apps to OS X.

Note also that Windows 8 on ARM will require MS App Store for deployment, apparently, but not for Win8 on Intel:

http://legacy.macnn.com/articles/12/02/09/microsoft.outlines.windows.8.arm.support/

Thanks.

-Phil
0
Phil
2/9/2012 9:11:55 PM
Hi Martin,

> So XE2 has been out for a while now. Surely there must be some apps created
> with it on either app store (or otherwise).
> Can someone point me out to those?

My first test (game of memory) app is already in the AppStore, and I'm 
working on an update (with more "animations" for example) as well as a 
few more apps for my seminar next week (and courseware manual that will 
be published at the end of next week).

See http://www.eBob42.com/memory or 
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/game-of-memory/id489076335?ls=1&mt=8 for 
the direct link.

Groetjes,
           Bob Swart

-- 
Bob Swart Training & Consultancy (eBob42.com) Forever Loyal to Delphi
Chairman Delphi Development Network (DDN) powered by SDN - www.sdn.nl
Embarcadero Technology Partner  Delphi & RAD Studio Reseller Eurozone
http://twitter.com/eBob42 LinkedIn: http://nl.linkedin.com/in/drbob42
Delphi paperbacks from Lulu.com http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/drbob42
Personal courseware + e-mail support http://www.ebob42.com/courseware
Blog: http://www.drbob42.com/blog - RSS: http://eBob42.com/weblog.xml
0
Bob
2/9/2012 9:36:53 PM
Well, that's rather sobering. It appears to me that this whole multi 
platform support is in a somewhat proof-of-concept stage. :(


"Martin Kammann"  wrote in message news:444621@forums.embarcadero.com...

So XE2 has been out for a while now. Surely there must be some apps created
with it on either app store (or otherwise).
Can someone point me out to those?
0
Martin
2/11/2012 9:53:36 PM
> {quote:title=Martin Kammann wrote:}{quote}
> Well, that's rather sobering. It appears to me that this whole multi 
> platform support is in a somewhat proof-of-concept stage. :(

Maybe a bit of patience is in order. Five months is not a lot of time to create a brand-new, non-trivial application for either of two platforms that must seem alien to many Win developers. (In fact, it's possible to think of iOS as two platforms itself due to the differences in screen size and usage patterns between iPhone and iPad.)

One problem is that our expectations and that of our users have been greatly altered by the speed with which Apple (and Google) are evolving their platforms. At some point this has to slow, meaning mobile app development will become more and more like traditional desktop development, with bigger programs and longer release cycles (i.e., fewer trivial games and goof programs). Or maybe it doesn't slow down, in which case we'll all need to find ways to get things done quicker, or just adapt to a world in wh
ich apps are updated more frequently, more incrementally.

Thanks.

-Phil
0
Phil
2/11/2012 10:07:44 PM
> {quote:title=Phil Hess wrote:}{quote}
> Maybe a bit of patience is in order. Five months is not a lot of time to create a brand-new, non-trivial application for either of two platforms that must seem alien to many Win developers. (In fact, it's possible to think of iOS as two platforms itself due to the differences in screen size and usage patterns between iPhone and iPad.)

5 months is *a lot of time*. It took me 3 months to learn Objective C *and* program the first version of GymGoal. I learned Obj-C "practically". I spent only a few days on an introductory book (3-5 days as far as I remember, it was 3 years ago). Then I only read the excellent Apple documentation and samples on specific subjects when I had some problems. I was 43 3 years ago. So I think the problem is in Firemonkey, not in something else.
0
Sergiy
2/11/2012 10:29:55 PM
> {quote:title=Sergiy Kolokolkin wrote:}{quote}
> 
> 5 months is *a lot of time*. It took me 3 months to learn Objective C *and* program the first version of GymGoal. I learned Obj-C "practically". I spent only a few days on an introductory book (3-5 days as far as I remember, it was 3 years ago). Then I only read the excellent Apple documentation and samples on specific subjects when I had some problems. I was 43 3 years ago. So I think the problem is in Firemonkey, not in something else.

You may be right (or maybe just exceptional), but for many of us, our primary responsibility is advancing and maintaining large Delphi/Windows codebases - and now we're suddenly expected to be experts in not one but two new platforms. That will just take time.

But certainly time is of the essence, simply because mobile apps are often fairly lightweight (not a criticism) and whipped up quickly to serve up content for a very specific or time-sensitive purpose, almost more like a Web page than a traditional app. A good example is something like this, an app that only had a very short lifespan since it was tied to last summer's World Cup:

http://itunes.apple.com/de/app/frauen-fussball-2011-germany/id435718117?mt=8

In this case, the author used PhoneGap as a way to get it out fast.

The other reason why time is important is because the traditional PC market is shrinking (some might say even on the verge of collapse):

http://www.electronista.com/articles/12/02/07/garnter.paints.bleak.picture.for.windows.in.europe/

Thanks.

-Phil
0
Phil
2/11/2012 10:57:38 PM
> So I think the problem is in Firemonkey, not in something else.

Er, you realise FMX in XE2 isn't 'finished' even on its own terms? The non-visual side of the OS X support (compiler, RTL, Objective-C interface, even the remote debugger) is very good, the visual side... well, hopefully update 4 might lessen the initial disappointment somewhat.
0
Chris
2/12/2012 1:16:22 PM
> {quote:title=Sergiy Kolokolkin wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=Phil Hess wrote:}{quote}
> > Maybe a bit of patience is in order. Five months is not a lot of time to create a brand-new, non-trivial application for either of two platforms that must seem alien to many Win developers. (In fact, it's possible to think of iOS as two platforms itself due to the differences in screen size and usage patterns between iPhone and iPad.)
> 
> 5 months is *a lot of time*. It took me 3 months to learn Objective C *and* program the first version of GymGoal. I learned Obj-C "practically". I spent only a few days on an introductory book (3-5 days as far as I remember, it was 3 years ago). Then I only read the excellent Apple documentation and samples on specific subjects when I had some problems. I was 43 3 years ago. So I think the problem is in Firemonkey, not in something else.

Thanks for this post. It really proves that Delphi's popularity won't grow due to the FireMonkey framework, as EMBT still thinks...
0
smelly
2/12/2012 3:02:07 PM
<smelly jelly> wrote
>
> It really proves that Delphi's popularity won't grow due to the
> FireMonkey framework, as EMBT still thinks...

nonsense. It 'proves' nothing.

If anyone is in a position to find out exactly why XE2 is selling more 
licenses than previous versions, it's Embarcadero. All they have to do is 
contact a significant sampling of new licensees and determine their 
motivation. that would give a pretty good idea of the factors leading to 
growth.

They can do that. Perhaps they are doing that or have done it. You cannot.

bobD
0
Robert
2/12/2012 3:50:26 PM
> {quote:title=smelly jelly wrote:}{quote}
> Thanks for this post. It really proves that Delphi's popularity won't grow due to the FireMonkey framework, as EMBT still thinks...

In 2011, Delphi sales grew by 54% compared to 2010 numbers.

http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/42023

I'm not sure how much of that is because of FireMonkey, but that sounds like a pretty impressive increase in Delphi's popularity.

Are you still on SA?

--
Regards
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
0
Bruce
2/12/2012 3:56:40 PM
> {quote:title=Chris Rolliston wrote:}{quote}
> > So I think the problem is in Firemonkey, not in something else.
> 
> Er, you realise FMX in XE2 isn't 'finished' even on its own terms? The non-visual side of the OS X support (compiler, RTL, Objective-C interface, even the remote debugger) is very good, the visual side... well, hopefully update 4 might lessen the initial disappointment somewhat.

Of course, Sergiy is talking about iOS too. Perhaps his point is that for commercial work (App Store), FM just doesn't cut it.

And even with OS X: Are you _sure_ the non-visual side is that great? How many of the approximately 100 system frameworks can you access? Do you have 10.7 support? Do you have iCloud support?

Thanks.

-Phil
0
Phil
2/12/2012 4:43:44 PM
> Of course, Sergiy is talking about iOS too.

Yes, though I don't consider that even worth talking about.

> Perhaps his point is that for commercial work (App Store), FM just doesn't cut it.

And I'm saying, FMX 'doesn't cut it' because it's hardly even beta-quality at present. Conflating this fact with the rights and wrongs of the *concept* makes for a very confused discussion.

> And even with OS X: Are you _sure_ the non-visual side is that great?

I think Embarcadero did an excellent job porting the Delphi RTL, yes.

> How many of the approximately 100 system frameworks can you access?

Tell me which 'system framework' you see so crucial to cross platform development and I'll give you the answer. From my POV, the non-legacy straight C APIs (POSIX, CoreXXX) seem to all have translations, and there's enough of the Objective-C ones in the box to learn how to declare my own (e.g., I have figured out how to use modal sheets for simple message boxes).

> Do you have 10.7 support? 

Please explain what exactly you are getting at.

> Do you have iCloud support?

To me this is like asking whether Delphi has Windows Live Mesh or Office 365 support, though please correct me.
0
Chris
2/12/2012 6:10:11 PM
> {quote:title=Chris Rolliston wrote:}{quote}
> The non-visual side of the OS X support (compiler, RTL, Objective-C interface, even the remote debugger) is very good,
+1

Giel
0
Giel
2/12/2012 7:16:43 PM
> {quote:title=Robert Dawson wrote:}{quote}
> <smelly jelly> wrote
> >
> > It really proves that Delphi's popularity won't grow due to the
> > FireMonkey framework, as EMBT still thinks...
> 
> nonsense. It 'proves' nothing.

Wait and you will see what I am already seeing. Delphi Win32 developers and IPhone app developers are 2 different audiences.
0
smelly
2/12/2012 7:29:27 PM
> {quote:title=Bruce McGee wrote:}{quote}

> In 2011, Delphi sales grew by 54% compared to 2010 numbers.
> 
> http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/42023
> 
> I'm not sure how much of that is because of FireMonkey, but that sounds like a pretty impressive increase in Delphi's popularity.

And what is the credibility of those announcements?
0
smelly
2/12/2012 7:34:34 PM
<smelly jelly> wrote
>
> Delphi Win32 developers and IPhone app developers are
> 2 different audiences.

Spaghetti and meatballs are two different foods. That doesn't indicate you 
can't find them on the same plate.

If you're claiming that no D.win32 developer is interested in writing for 
iOS or the iPhone, or that no current iOS/IPhone developer would want a 
win32 development tool, that seems a rather silly thing to say.

bobD
0
Robert
2/12/2012 7:48:59 PM
> > I'm not sure how much of that is because of FireMonkey, but that sounds like a pretty impressive increase in Delphi's popularity.
> 
> And what is the credibility of those announcements?

Much, much greater than yours.
0
Chris
2/12/2012 8:35:38 PM
So, if it proves that the growth wasn't due to FMX, would it be alright to 
abandon it?
It appears to me that releasing and advertising a version with OSX and iOS 
support can badly backfire and discourage people when they hear afterwards, 
that it's not finished (IOW just an appetizer). Although sales may have gone 
up in this version, people may think twice about the next...


"Robert Dawson"  wrote in message news:445201@forums.embarcadero.com...

<smelly jelly> wrote
>
> It really proves that Delphi's popularity won't grow due to the
> FireMonkey framework, as EMBT still thinks...

nonsense. It 'proves' nothing.

If anyone is in a position to find out exactly why XE2 is selling more
licenses than previous versions, it's Embarcadero. All they have to do is
contact a significant sampling of new licensees and determine their
motivation. that would give a pretty good idea of the factors leading to
growth.

They can do that. Perhaps they are doing that or have done it. You cannot.
0
Martin
2/12/2012 8:39:02 PM
"Martin Kammann" wrote
> So, if it proves that the growth wasn't due to FMX, would it be alright to
> abandon it?

Too hypothetical to be intersting. EMB will adobt the course of action that 
seems best to them.

> it's not finished (IOW just an appetizer). Although sales may have gone
> up in this version, people may think twice about the next...

And if aliens assisted with the pyramids, they might be returning to reclaim 
them Again, entirely hypothetical extrapolations based on nothing. We don't 
know why people are buying XE2, nor, in general, how satisfied they are. I'm 
quite happy with my copy.

bobD
0
Robert
2/12/2012 9:11:22 PM
> {quote:title=Chris Rolliston wrote:}{quote}
> And I'm saying, FMX 'doesn't cut it' because it's hardly even beta-quality at present. Conflating this fact with the rights and wrongs of the *concept* makes for a very confused discussion.

Maybe you could discuss what you mean by _the concept_. And maybe try to avoid putting it in Hollywood high-concept terms ("Let's do a framework that can target all platforms").

Presumably the FM "concept" has something to do with its architecture. So what is its architecture and how does it fit in with the architecture of OS X or iOS? Does it replace it? Supplement it? Architecture independent?

For example, most Mac apps are document-based - that's the reason for modal sheets. The architecture of a document-based app is typically an NSDocument subclass and a controller subclass that work together - a pair of objects, one to manage the document's data and one to manage the window where the document's data is edited. Can you use these objects with FM? If not, what's the FM equivalent?

In OS X 10.7, an NSDocument object now knows how to read and write its data to iCloud. Similarly, in iOS, a UIDocument object knows how to read and write it data to iCloud. If these objects can't be used with FM, what FM's iCloud solution?

NSDocument and UIDocument objects are often used with Core Data - again, what's the FM answer to Core Data?

If you look at tools like PhoneGap and MonoDevelop/MonoMac/MonoTouch, they adopt the OS X and iOS architecture exactly. There's nothing wrong with saying, "I've got a better idea" than, say, Apple, but it had better actually _be_ better.

https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/DataManagement/Conceptual/DocBasedAppProgrammingGuideForOSX/Introduction/Introduction.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40011179

https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#documentation/UIKit/Reference/UIDocument_Class/UIDocument/UIDocument.html#//apple_ref/occ/cl/UIDocument

https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/MacOSX/Conceptual/OSX_Technology_Overview/SystemFrameworks/SystemFrameworks.html

Thanks.

-Phil
0
Phil
2/12/2012 9:23:05 PM
> {quote:title=Chris Rolliston wrote:}{quote}
> > > I'm not sure how much of that is because of FireMonkey, but that sounds like a pretty impressive increase in Delphi's popularity.
> > 
> > And what is the credibility of those announcements?
> 
> Much, much greater than yours.

I know. Reason #1: I don't use a real name!!!!!!
0
smelly
2/12/2012 10:07:20 PM
> {quote:title=Robert Dawson wrote:}{quote}
> <smelly jelly> wrote
> >
> > Delphi Win32 developers and IPhone app developers are
> > 2 different audiences.
> 
> Spaghetti and meatballs are two different foods. That doesn't indicate you 
> can't find them on the same plate.
> 
> If you're claiming that no D.win32 developer is interested in writing for 
> iOS or the iPhone, or that no current iOS/IPhone developer would want a 
> win32 development tool, that seems a rather silly thing to say.

I would expect most of IPhone apps developers be in their 20's. Based on my own observations. Delphi users are older and we all know it. IPhone apps developers never heard of Pascal.
0
smelly
2/12/2012 10:10:17 PM
> Maybe you could discuss what you mean by _the concept_. And
> maybe try to avoid putting it in Hollywood high-concept terms
> ("Let's do a framework that can target all platforms").

'Let's do a framework that can target more platforms than desktop Windows'.

> Presumably the FM "concept" has something to do with its architecture.

I was merely highlighting the distinction between criticising FMX for being poor quality and criticising it for being a misplaced effort *even if* it wasn't buggy and half-finished, as it is at present. It isn't me who is talking about it in terms of high concept, but you.

> For example, most Mac apps are document-based - that's the reason
> for modal sheets.

I disagree, or rather, disagree it is a sufficient reason for the precise programming model the NSAlert class (for example) imposes: while the beginSheetModalForWindow returns immediately, the 'sheet' itself is definitely 'modal' from the user's POV.

That said, on the broader point, what the designers of a good cross platform toolkit should do is to have a finite set of platforms in mind, and look to create common abstractions from them, backfilling for specific platforms as necessary. Naturally, this will require imagination, but I don't see it as impossible as you make out.

For example, from my mere user's POV, the windowing behaviour of Word 2007 on my Windows 7 laptop and Word 2011 on my iMac is *extremely* similar, despite Word 2011 adhering to the Mac document model: in both cases, multiple open documents end up in the same taskbar location, and it is possible to have a state of no documents open yet Word still (visibly) running.

> The architecture of a document-based app is typically an NSDocument
> subclass and a controller subclass that work together - a pair of objects,

I couldn't care less how something is *implemented*: it's how it *behaves*.

> NSDocument and UIDocument objects are often used with Core Data - again, what's the FM answer to Core Data?

It doesn't need one! Core Data is just one other API; FMX is a cross platform visual framework.

> There's nothing wrong with saying, "I've got a better idea" than, say, Apple, but it had better actually _be_ better.

What are you talking about? No one has said a cross platform solution will be 'better' than a native one: the question is whether it can be 'good enough'. Myself, I would also say 'and allows using native solutions as much as possible as a fallback', and this caveat is one of my criticisms of the current FMX implementation (it deliberately fails to expose hooks to the underlying API, in stark contrast to the VCL), but you don't want to discuss that sort of thing do you? From your POV, it seems to be all '
architecture' this, and the unique wonderfulness of Apple that. From my POV, in contrast, Macs are just another sort of PC, OS X just another sort of PC operating system rather similar to Windows in many ways, and the array of OS X APIs just another set of PC operating system APIs, a bit different in feel to the array of APIs found on Windows but not so different as to feel truly alien.
0
Chris
2/12/2012 10:38:27 PM
> {quote:title=Chris Rolliston wrote:}{quote}
> I disagree, or rather, disagree it is a sufficient reason for the precise programming model the NSAlert class (for example) imposes: while the beginSheetModalForWindow returns immediately, the 'sheet' itself is definitely 'modal' from the user's POV.

No, when an alert or dialog is displayed as a modal sheet, it's only modal to the current document. It does not block access to other document windows or the menu bar. If your app only supports one document window, then it might appear as though it's "application modal" (like Windows) rather than "document modal", but that's rather unusual with Mac apps.

Thanks.

-Phil
0
Phil
2/12/2012 11:35:27 PM
Le 12/02/12 22:38, Chris Rolliston a écrit :

> I disagree, or rather, disagree it is a sufficient reason for the
> precise programming model the NSAlert class (for example) imposes:
> while the beginSheetModalForWindow returns immediately, the 'sheet'
> itself is definitely 'modal' from the user's POV.

The subtle but big difference between OS X modal sheets and Windows 
modal dialogs are that modal sheets are only modal to one document; the 
rest of the application, including other documents are not affected and 
continue to be usable.

> For example, from my mere user's POV, the windowing behaviour of Word
> 2007 on my Windows 7 laptop and Word 2011 on my iMac is *extremely*
> similar, despite Word 2011 adhering to the Mac document model: in
> both cases, multiple open documents end up in the same taskbar
> location, and it is possible to have a state of no documents open yet
> Word still (visibly) running.

If an OS X app supports the document model, then it is normal for 
"close" buttons to only close the current document, not the whole app.

The other feature, at least in iWork apps, that I like is that, when 
those apps lose focus, tool windows disappear, only leaving the 
documents visible.

Differences like these make me wonder just how any framework can suggest 
that it is capable of supporting multiple platforms, when differences 
are not purely visual but, also, behavioural.

Joanna

-- 
Joanna Carter [Team OOAD]
0
Joanna
2/12/2012 11:45:25 PM
> {quote:title=smelly jelly wrote:}{quote}
> I would expect most of IPhone apps developers be in their 20's. Based on my own observations. Delphi users are older and we all know it. IPhone apps developers never heard of Pascal.

And what is the credibility of those observations?

--
Regards
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
0
Bruce
2/13/2012 1:11:24 AM
> {quote:title=smelly jelly wrote:}{quote}
> Thanks for this post. It really proves that Delphi's popularity won't grow due to the FireMonkey framework, as EMBT still thinks...

I did not mean that. I just answered the question: why there are practically no Firemonkey apps in the iOS App Store. One possible answer is "it's too early", another is "in it's current state Firemonkey is practically unusable for iOS". I believe that the correct answer is the 2nd one.

But this does not mean that an improved Firemonkey does not have a chance. It can have a chance, but it needs to improve a lot.

Regarding cross-platform development... It depends on the app. Games - sure cross-platform tools are absolutely right for them. Apps with lots of "forms" and "dialogs", packed with standard "controls", like my app - they look much better with native tools.

To use cross-platform tools or not to use - I think it's more a "personal" than a technical question.

For myself I decided to use native tools for mobile platforms, and cross-platform tools for desktop platforms.

On desktops, GUI elements have much more in common than on mobile platforms. Take a combo-box for example. It looks just slightly different on Mac than on Windows. The same with check-boxes and radio-buttons. It's easy to "skin" them to make them look native, and the difference in functionality is rather small so cross-platform tools can easily manage it. I use a lot of cross-platform apps on my Mac, made mostly with Real Basic or Qt - they look native enough to me.

Now look at iOS - there's no such things as a combo-box. You need to use a scroll-wheel instead (UIPickerView). It takes half the screen on an iPhone. If you don't have enough space, you need to open a separate page, or pop up a "dialog", or pop it up instead of the keyboard.

The same story with check-boxes and radio-buttons. Either use a UISwitch, or a table, or buttons and UIPickerView. In any case, you most often need to design a significantly different layout, and sometimes a different work-flow.

On mobile platforms, I don't know, so little screen space and very different GUI elements, I will not use cross-platform for my app... I don't know, maybe some geniuses can create a cross-platform mobile tool that automatically resolves huge differences in GUI standards between mobile platforms. Until then I think that these tools are good only for mobile games.

But speaking of Mac OS X and Windows, I think that improved FireMonkey has good future!
0
Sergiy
2/13/2012 3:05:47 AM
Robert Dawson wrote:

>  that seems a rather silly thing to say.

smelly is a Professional Silly Thing Sayer.

-- 
Nick Hodges -- Product Development Manager
Gateway Ticketing Systems
http://www.gatewayticketing.com
0
Nick
2/13/2012 3:05:53 AM
> The subtle but big difference between OS X modal sheets and Windows 
> modal dialogs are that modal sheets are only modal to one document;

Say a Windows application is implemented in the classic SDI manner, perhaps with a few window messages posted between processes to keep everything in sync. If so, then a modal dialog shown in document 1 will be modal *just* to that document, and not document 2. This is *exactly* the same as in the OS X case. The fact when a multi-document application is implemented in a single instance a modal dialog is modal to all open windows is a crappy limitation of an architecture MS never bothered to fix when it ga
ve up on MDI. However, it's not so hard to work around if you really care. E.g., in a VCL context -

{code}
procedure TDocumentForm.btnShowModalSheetClick(Sender: TObject);
var
  Dlg: TMyModalSheetForm;
begin
  Dlg := TMyModalSheetForm.Create(Self);
  Dlg.OnClose := DlgClose;
  Enabled := False;
  Dlg.Show;
end;

procedure TDocumentForm.DlgClose(Sender: TObject; var Action: TCloseAction);
begin
  Action := caFree;
  Enabled := True;
end;
{code}

In this case moving the dialog will not move the originating window too, however I leave making the code more elaborate to your imagination.

> > For example, from my mere user's POV, the windowing behaviour of Word
> > 2007 on my Windows 7 laptop and Word 2011 on my iMac is *extremely*
> > similar, despite Word 2011 adhering to the Mac document model: in
> > both cases, multiple open documents end up in the same taskbar
> > location, and it is possible to have a state of no documents open yet
> > Word still (visibly) running.
> 
> If an OS X app supports the document model, then it is normal for 
> "close" buttons to only close the current document, not the whole app.

In the Word case, that difference only arises when the last document is closed using the close button in the title bar. Close the document in WinWord using Ctrl+W instead (or Office button|Close, or File|Close in pre-2007 versions), and you get the Mac behaviour. That the current version of OS X automatically closes applications that haven't had a document open for a while makes the difference even more academic.

> The other feature, at least in iWork apps, that I like is that, when 
> those apps lose focus, tool windows disappear, only leaving the 
> documents visible.

What would that take - four lines of code to implement?

> Differences like these make me wonder just how any framework can suggest 
> that it is capable of supporting multiple platforms, when differences 
> are not purely visual but, also, behavioural.

Next you're going to tell me yet another fundamental difference between OS X and Windows is the fact the clock appears top right instead of bottom right by default...
0
Chris
2/13/2012 3:37:17 AM
> No, when an alert or dialog is displayed as a modal sheet, it's only modal to the
> current document. It does not block access to other document windows or the
> menu bar. If your app only supports one document window, then it might appear
> as though it's "application modal" (like Windows) rather than "document modal",
> but that's rather unusual with Mac apps.

I know what the behaviour is, and it certainly is modal to the window, not the 'current document' in a non-technical sense. The worst case for me personally was/is Safari, where before I gave up on it and installed Firefox, I was forever accidentally hitting the shortcut for adding a bookmark, and being mystified by the thing apparently hanging (translucency on a mainly white background = easy to miss if you don't have perfect eyesight). If modal sheets were truly 'document modal', then the Safari ones wo
uld be modal to just the current tab, but they aren't - they're modal to the *window*.
0
Chris
2/13/2012 3:53:09 AM
Martin Kammann wrote:

> Well, that's rather sobering. It appears to me that this whole multi 
> platform support is in a somewhat proof-of-concept stage. :(

The compiler for ARM/iOS is not there yet, and for the Mac, you don't
have to put applications in the AppStore.

So yes, the iOS integration is not perfect yet (it requires FPC plugged
into Xcode). The OS X integration is better, but you won't necessarily
see those programs in the AppStore.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]        http://rvelthuis.de

"All sorts of computer errors are now turning up. You'd be 
 surprised to know the number of doctors who claim they are 
 treating pregnant men." -- Isaac Asimov.
0
Rudy
2/13/2012 8:25:56 AM
smelly jelly wrote:

> I would expect most of IPhone apps developers be in their 20's. Based
> on my own observations.

Then these are probably not very accurate. <g>
-- 
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]        http://rvelthuis.de

"A witty saying proves nothing."
 -- Voltaire (1694-1778)
0
Rudy
2/13/2012 8:27:54 AM
smelly jelly wrote:

> > {quote:title=Chris Rolliston wrote:}{quote}
> > > > I'm not sure how much of that is because of FireMonkey, but
> > > > that sounds like a pretty impressive increase in Delphi's
> > > > popularity.
> > > 
> > > And what is the credibility of those announcements?
> > 
> > Much, much greater than yours.
> 
> I know. Reason #1: I don't use a real name!!!!!!

Reason #2: you don't have the tools and data to find out. Embarcadero
do and that makes them a lot more credible than you.
-- 
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]        http://rvelthuis.de

"The Stones, I love the Stones. I watch them whenever I can. Fred,
 Barney..." -- Steven Wright.
0
Rudy
2/13/2012 8:30:35 AM
are you ten?
0
smelly
2/13/2012 11:22:40 AM
> {quote:title=Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:}{quote}
> smelly jelly wrote:
> 
> > > {quote:title=Chris Rolliston wrote:}{quote}
> > > > > I'm not sure how much of that is because of FireMonkey, but
> > > > > that sounds like a pretty impressive increase in Delphi's
> > > > > popularity.
> > > > 
> > > > And what is the credibility of those announcements?
> > > 
> > > Much, much greater than yours.
> > 
> > I know. Reason #1: I don't use a real name!!!!!!
> 
> Reason #2: you don't have the tools and data to find out. Embarcadero
> do and that makes them a lot more credible than you.

I have been a stockholder for long. Companies who have to report to the government lie mightily. And now image those who are out of any control.
0
smelly
2/13/2012 11:24:42 AM
> And what is the credibility of those announcements?

An other source of data entirely shows a noticeable uptake:

https://www.ohloh.net/languages/compare?l0=pascal&measure=commits&percent=true

The rate of increase roughly matches the EMBT figures since acquisition.

Eric
0
Eric
2/13/2012 1:01:40 PM
Eric Grange wrote:

> An other source of data entirely shows a noticeable uptake:

Eric --

I can't find "Delphi" in their list -- is it correct to assume that
"Pascal" covers all Pacal dialects, including Delphi?

-- 
Nick Hodges -- Product Development Manager
Gateway Ticketing Systems
http://www.gatewayticketing.com
0
Nick
2/13/2012 6:13:12 PM
Am 13.02.2012 12:22, schrieb smelly jelly:
> are you ten?

10? What 10?
0
Markus
2/13/2012 8:20:47 PM
> The architecture of a document-based app is typically an NSDocument subclass
> and a controller subclass that work together - a pair of objects, one to manage
> the document's data and one to manage the window where the document's data
> is edited. 

OK, I've just read up a bit on this: NSDocument needs to be subclassed - no problem, you can subclass Objective-C classes fine. The subclass needs to either return the name of a NIB file *or* initialise a NSWindowController instance itself - well, let's do the latter (no NIB file obviously). Usually a NSWindowController is itself instantiated by passing in the name of a NIB, but you can call its 'designated initialiser' (initWithWindow) with an already-created NSWindow reference instead. A FMX form is a a
 NSWindow subclass; therefore...

> Can you use these objects with FM? 

I don't see why not. Any pointers as to why this might still be a fool's errand...?
0
Chris
2/13/2012 9:15:44 PM
> {quote:title=Chris Rolliston wrote:}{quote}
> > The architecture of a document-based app is typically an NSDocument subclass
> > and a controller subclass that work together - a pair of objects, one to manage
> > the document's data and one to manage the window where the document's data
> > is edited. 
> 
> OK, I've just read up a bit on this: NSDocument needs to be subclassed - no problem, you can subclass Objective-C classes fine. The subclass needs to either return the name of a NIB file *or* initialise a NSWindowController instance itself - well, let's do the latter (no NIB file obviously). Usually a NSWindowController is itself instantiated by passing in the name of a NIB, but you can call its 'designated initialiser' (initWithWindow) with an already-created NSWindow reference instead. A FMX form is a
 a NSWindow subclass; therefore...
> 
> > Can you use these objects with FM? 
> 
> I don't see why not. Any pointers as to why this might still be a fool's errand...?

I would think that would work as long as the controller's initializer accepts the existing NSWindow and doing this doesn't interfere with FM internals.

Example code in Objective Pascal syntax showing some of that is in parts 2 and 12 here:

http://web.me.com/macpgmr/ObjP/Xcode4/

How much of the full Cocoa functionality do you have? For example, if you create a document-based Cocoa app in Xcode with either ObjC or the Objective Pascal template, you get the full menu automatically, with File | New, File | Open, File | Save, etc. already wired to manage multiple windows, you get File | Recent already functional, About box for free, etc. Even stuff like spell checking and "Speak Text" is there in the menu and operational if you want it. Of course, these things can be added manually i
n code, 

A useful exercise might be just to try and reproduce the functionality of the little document-based app in Part 2.

Thanks.

-Phil
0
Phil
2/13/2012 9:32:36 PM
smelly jelly wrote:

> Delphi Win32 developers and IPhone app developers are 2 different
> audiences.

Rubbish. I'm a Delphi Win32 developer, and I'm very keen to get into
iOS development (and Android development, and possibly even Windows
Phone development).

You're also ignoring where I think FMX really shines, namely the
ability to create a cross platform Windows and OSX application.

-- 
Cheers,
David Clegg
dclegg@gmail.com
http://cc.embarcadero.com/author/72299
QualityCentral. The best way to bug Embarcadero about bugs.
http://qc.embarcadero.com

"With $10,000, we can be millionaires!" - Homer Simpson
0
David
2/13/2012 9:41:21 PM
> {quote:title=David Clegg wrote:}{quote}
> smelly jelly wrote:
> 
> > Delphi Win32 developers and IPhone app developers are 2 different
> > audiences.
> 
> Rubbish. I'm a Delphi Win32 developer, and I'm very keen to get into
> iOS development (and Android development, and possibly even Windows
> Phone development).

He's dead. Please say that your thoughts are with him.
0
Lay
2/13/2012 9:51:34 PM
> > I don't see why not. Any pointers as to why this might still be a fool's errand...?
> 
> I would think that would work as long as the controller's initializer accepts the
> existing NSWindow and doing this doesn't interfere with FM internals.

Possibly - I'll see when I try it out. I'm currently waiting for update 4 and its promised FMX updates for OS X...

> Example code in Objective Pascal syntax showing some of that is in parts 2 and 12 here:
> 
> http://web.me.com/macpgmr/ObjP/Xcode4/

Thanks. Given you are, shall we say, somewhat sceptical about cross platform solutions, what makes you work with FPC at all? Is it just code reuse, or something else? And if code reuse, why FPC/Xcode rather than Objective-C/Xcode + FPC-compiled dylibs?

Put negatively, to be truly 'native', surely Pascal code should be progressively eased out in favour of Objective-C, on pain of not being able to use newer features of the OS? E.g., doesn't the OS X thread pool require newer features of Objective-C ('blocks', alias anonymous methods, so far as I can see, in Delphi/C# terms) that FPC doesn't support, or at least, not for a time yet? Sorry about all the question marks - they aren't intended to be rhetorical.

> How much of the full Cocoa functionality do you have? For example,
> if you create a document-based Cocoa app in Xcode with either ObjC
> or the Objective Pascal template, you get the full menu automatically,
> with File | New, File | Open, File | Save, etc. already wired to manage
> multiple windows,

How exactly that happens is the next bit of research on my list!

> you get File | Recent already functional, About box for free, etc.

Come on, an MRU list and about box isn't hard...

> Even stuff like spell checking 

In the memo/rich edit control equivalent, yes... and available to call independently too. I've also noticed Hunspell around as a core part of the OS, though haven't found the dictionaries (perhaps they aren't available to use directly because of licencing issues though?).

> "Speak Text" is there in the menu and operational if you want it.
> Of course, these things can be added manually in code, 

Right, and so long as there is an API to do that independently of the built-in controls, that will be trivial.

> A useful exercise might be just to try and reproduce the functionality of the little document-based app in Part 2.

It if takes writing code like that for the UI generally, I would use Objective-C.
0
Chris
2/14/2012 12:05:59 AM
> {quote:title=Chris Rolliston wrote:}{quote}
> Thanks. Given you are, shall we say, somewhat sceptical about cross platform solutions, what makes you work with FPC at all? Is it just code reuse, or something else? And if code reuse, why FPC/Xcode rather than Objective-C/Xcode + FPC-compiled dylibs?

Well, [non-UI] code and skills recycling are important for what I'm doing, as they are for many Pascal developers. And it's not so much that I'm skeptical, but that I gave up on cross-platform UI before FM came around.

Note that with iOS you can't use dylibs - all code must be statically linked into the executable. However, via the power of FPC's Objective Pascal syntax, Part 8 shows how you can create a static library from ObjC classes, then link it into a Pascal iOS executable and use the ObjC classes as is with Pascal - no additional programming necessary. And Part 10 shows how to create a static library from Pascal code (by wrapping in ObjC classes) and then use those classes in an ObjC iOS executable. Question is w
hether Delphi will ever support something like that - or will they take an all-or-nothing approach to iOS development.


> Put negatively, to be truly 'native', surely Pascal code should be progressively eased out in favour of Objective-C, on pain of not being able to use newer features of the OS? E.g., doesn't the OS X thread pool require newer features of Objective-C ('blocks', alias anonymous methods, so far as I can see, in Delphi/C# terms) that FPC doesn't support, or at least, not for a time yet? Sorry about all the question marks - they aren't intended to be rhetorical.

C blocks will be a problem for Delphi too. Some frameworks rely on the ability to pass in a C block. You can see which frameworks and what methods are affected like this:

cd /System/Library/Frameworks/AppKit.framework/headers
grep "\^" *.h

For example, with the NSSpellChecker class (in AppKit), to check spelling in the background you have to pass in a C block.

That's the only limitation I've run into so far (well, it would be nice to have ARC like ObjC does when you use LLVM 3.0).


> > "Speak Text" is there in the menu and operational if you want it.
> > Of course, these things can be added manually in code, 
> 
> Right, and so long as there is an API to do that independently of the built-in controls, that will be trivial.

Yes, you should be able to use the AppKit NSSpeechSynthesizer class. My point is that you get this with a Cocoa document-based app for _any_ NSTextField or NSTextView that you drop on your .xib - and the Edit | Speech menu automatically knows when to enable/disable the Start Speaking command. It comes for free - not a single line or code or a single property is needed. Same with the other standard Edit menu submenus - Spelling and Grammar, Substitutions, Transformations, Special Characters.

Thanks.

-Phil
0
Phil
2/14/2012 1:48:37 AM
> I can't find "Delphi" in their list -- is it correct to assume that
> "Pascal" covers all Pascal dialects, including Delphi?

Yes, all the Delphi projects present in ohloh I've seen were correctly 
recognized as Pascal.

Ohloh basically parses all the files in open-source projects, recognizes 
the language, and builds its stats from it.

It correctly recognized DWScript as a Pascal dialect too.
There are a few comments for some esoteric languages not being correctly 
detected, but they're quite limited AFAICT.

Eric
0
Eric
2/14/2012 7:41:20 AM
Eric Grange wrote:

> > I can't find "Delphi" in their list -- is it correct to assume that
> > "Pascal" covers all Pascal dialects, including Delphi?
> 
> Yes, all the Delphi projects present in ohloh I've seen were
> correctly recognized as Pascal.
> 

Thanks -- that's a really cool site.  I've seen it before, but never
quite "got" it. Thanks for explaining, and thanks for pointing out the
graph.  Very interesting.




-- 
Nick Hodges -- Product Development Manager
Gateway Ticketing Systems
http://www.gatewayticketing.com
0
Nick
2/14/2012 2:21:11 PM
Markus Humm wrote:

> Am 13.02.2012 12:22, schrieb smelly jelly:
> > are you ten?
> 
> 10? What 10?

Bo Derek?

-- 
Pieter

"The open secrets of good design practice include the importance
 of knowing what to keep whole, what to combine, what to separate,
 and what to throw away." -- Kevlin Henny
0
Pieter
2/15/2012 1:25:43 AM
Lay Connaen Jeno wrote:

> > {quote:title=David Clegg wrote:}{quote}
> > smelly jelly wrote:
> > 
> > > Delphi Win32 developers and IPhone app developers are 2 different
> > > audiences.
> > 
> > Rubbish. I'm a Delphi Win32 developer, and I'm very keen to get into
> > iOS development (and Android development, and possibly even Windows
> > Phone development).
> 
> He's dead. 

You've killed him!

> Please say that your thoughts are with him.

Isn't a bit hypocrite for *you* to ask for this ?-)

-- 
Pieter

"Nothing overshadows truth so much as authority."
 -- Leon Battista Alberti
0
Pieter
2/15/2012 1:48:44 AM
> And Part 10 shows how to create a static library from Pascal
> code (by wrapping in ObjC classes) and then use those classes
> in an ObjC iOS executable. Question is whether Delphi will ever
> support something like that 

At present, I'm personally unconvinced that would be a worthwhile feature for the Delphi team to implement, given there are other things to do (work on FMX itself, Android targeting, etc.). OTOH, I'm also unconvinced (to say the least) about the decision to ship iOS support in XE2, as what it is, so what do I know...

> C blocks will be a problem for Delphi too.

Well, my point was an approach of FPC backend + platform-native frontend will still involve limitations not had in a platform-native backend + platform-native frontend approach, if being platform native is a very high priority.

> > Right, and so long as there is an API to do that independently of the built-in controls, that will be trivial.
> 
> Yes, you should be able to use the AppKit NSSpeechSynthesizer class.
> My point is that you get this with a Cocoa document-based app for _any_
> NSTextField or NSTextView that you drop on your .xib 

I still don't see this as particularly crucial. For sure, it makes writing a TextEdit clone very simple, but not every application is a TextEdit clone.

As an aside, WRT my initial question, I've now tried implementing Mac-style native MDI with a FMX application, and it turned out pretty easy to do (presumably you've done it yourself using the LCL...?). There wasn't any need to mess about with NSDocument, because the UI parts are almost entirely implemented by NSWindow and NSApplication - I've got the standard application menu (including standard About box and Services sub-menu), Window and Help menu. I haven't looked at hooking the Services sub-menu to a
 FMX TMemo yet, though presumably that shouldn't be too hard either...?
0
Chris
2/19/2012 6:25:40 PM
smelly jelly wrote:

> > {quote:title=Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:}{quote}
> > smelly jelly wrote:
> > 
> > > > {quote:title=Chris Rolliston wrote:}{quote}
> > > > > > I'm not sure how much of that is because of FireMonkey, but
> > > > > > that sounds like a pretty impressive increase in Delphi's
> > > > > > popularity.
> > > > > 
> > > > > And what is the credibility of those announcements?
> > > > 
> > > > Much, much greater than yours.
> > > 
> > > I know. Reason #1: I don't use a real name!!!!!!
> > 
> > Reason #2: you don't have the tools and data to find out.
> > Embarcadero do and that makes them a lot more credible than you.
> 
> I have been a stockholder for long. Companies who have to report to
> the government lie mightily. And now image those who are out of any
> control.

That is the non-sequitur of the month, if you ask me.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis

"Usually when people are sad, they don't do anything. They just
 cry over their condition. But when they get angry, they bring
 about a change."
 -- Malcolm X
0
Rudy
2/20/2012 1:29:45 AM
Reply:

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