XE8 Bugfixes and Hotfixes require subscription?

Has Embarcadero's policy changed on paying for bugfixes? With the recent XE8 update it looks like we must have a subscription to get all the bug and hot fixes. I can understand paying for new features, but an additional charge to pay for bugs? Is this accurate or am I misinterpreting the latest update?

Bruce
0
Bruce
7/6/2015 5:28:07 PM
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Please see 
https://www.embarcadero.com/products/rad-studio/update-subscription. 
Note how Maintenance Updates are only included for customers that 
purchase Update Subscription.

Bruce H wrote:
> Has Embarcadero's policy changed on paying for bugfixes? With the recent XE8 update it looks like we must have a subscription to get all the bug and hot fixes. I can understand paying for new features, but an additional charge to pay for bugs? Is this accurate or am I misinterpreting the latest update?
>
> Bruce
>
0
quinn
7/6/2015 6:06:55 PM
Bruce H wrote:
> Has Embarcadero's policy changed on paying for bugfixes? With the recent XE8 update it looks like we must have a subscription to get all the bug and hot fixes. I can understand paying for new features, but an additional charge to pay for bugs? Is this accurate or am I misinterpreting the latest update?
> 
> Bruce

You must have a subscription as of XE8 to get full product patches.  There were 
2 patches released for Upd1.  ! for Subscribers and one for non subscribers that 
has less in it.

-- 
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
       (Please do not email me directly unless  asked. Thank You)
And so I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolor
I must fear evil. For I am but mortal and mortals can only die.
Asking questions, pleading answers from the nameless
faceless watchers that stalk the carpeted  corridors of Whitehall.
              (Fish)
0
Jeff
7/6/2015 6:08:04 PM
> {quote:title=Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:}{quote}
> Bruce H wrote:
> > Has Embarcadero's policy changed on paying for bugfixes? With the recent XE8 update it looks like we must have a subscription to get all the bug and hot fixes. I can understand paying for new features, but an additional charge to pay for bugs? Is this accurate or am I misinterpreting the latest update?
> > 
> > Bruce
> 
> You must have a subscription as of XE8 to get full product patches.  There were 
> 2 patches released for Upd1.  ! for Subscribers and one for non subscribers that 
> has less in it.
> 
> -- 
> Jeff Overcash (TeamB)

In my opinion this sets a really bad precedent to make customers pay for limitations, mistakes, or errors in products. Again, companies have a right to ask for payment for new features, but to require loyal users to pay for corrections that we're not their fault is bad business.

Bruce
0
Bruce
7/6/2015 6:18:26 PM
In article <727930@forums.embarcadero.com>, Bruce H wrote:
> In my opinion this sets a really bad precedent to make customers pay for limitations, 
mistakes, or errors in products. Again, companies have a right to ask for payment for new 
features, but to require loyal users to pay for corrections that we're not their fault is bad 
business.

In reality, it has always been that way, except that instead of a subscription, you had to buy 
an upgrade to the next version to get many of the bug fixes, and then you'd have a new version 
with new features and new bugs.  You'd be lucky to get a quick patch or 2 after each release 
with the showstopper bugs fixed before development moves to a new version.

This model will hopefully give an incentive to do more bug fixes to each version rather than 
embark on new features right away to pay the bills.  The benefit of this is being able to stay 
with a version longer and have it become more robust.  There are obstacles to moving a project 
to a new version of Delphi such as acquiring 3rd party libraries and often more extensive 
testing requirements.

Steve Tyrakowski
0
Steve
7/6/2015 6:45:35 PM
In article <727930@forums.embarcadero.com>, Bruce H wrote:
> In my opinion this sets a really bad precedent to make customers pay for limitations, 
mistakes, or errors in products. Again, companies have a right to ask for payment for new 
features, but to require loyal users to pay for corrections that we're not their fault is bad 
business.

In reality, it has always been that way, except that instead of a subscription, you had to buy 
an upgrade to the next version to get many of the bug fixes, and then you'd have a new version 
with new features and new bugs.  You'd be lucky to get a quick patch or 2 after each release 
with the showstopper bugs fixed before development moves to a new version.

This model will hopefully give an incentive to do more bug fixes to each version rather than 
embark on new features right away to pay the bills.  The benefit of this is being able to stay 
with a version longer and have it become more robust.  There are obstacles to moving a project 
to a new version of Delphi such as acquiring 3rd party libraries and often more extensive 
testing requirements.

Steve Tyrakowski
0
Steve
7/6/2015 8:15:41 PM
> In reality, it has always been that way, except that instead of a subscription, you had to buy 
> an upgrade to the next version to get many of the bug fixes, and then you'd have a new version 
> with new features and new bugs.  You'd be lucky to get a quick patch or 2 after each release 
> with the showstopper bugs fixed before development moves to a new version.

Really? It seems with all the Delphi versions I've purchased, I've always received free hot fixes.

Bruce
0
Bruce
7/6/2015 9:05:26 PM
In article <727943@forums.embarcadero.com>, Bruce H wrote:
> > In reality, it has always been that way, except that instead of a subscription, you had to 
buy 
> > an upgrade to the next version to get many of the bug fixes, and then you'd have a new 
version 
> > with new features and new bugs.  You'd be lucky to get a quick patch or 2 after each 
release 
> > with the showstopper bugs fixed before development moves to a new version.
> 
> Really? It seems with all the Delphi versions I've purchased, I've always received free hot 
fixes.

So you ignored this part of my post:
> You'd be lucky to get a quick patch or 2 after each release 
> with the showstopper bugs fixed before development moves to a new version.

There were 2 updates released, one for subscribers and one for non-subscribers.  My point is 
that the one for non-subscribers is analogous to the hotfix patches of previous versions and 
the subscriber version has fixes that likely would have either not been done before or would 
have waited for the next full version.   I'm sure the old hotfixes would have fallen somewhere 
in between the level of the ones released now, but we're talking shades of grey now.

And those fixes that got deferred to the next version would never have been applied to the 
previous versions, but with the new subscriber model for fixes, my understanding is that we are 
being promised longer bug-fix support for the older versions.
0
Steve
7/6/2015 9:26:24 PM
> There were 2 updates released, one for subscribers and one for non-subscribers.  My point is 
> that the one for non-subscribers is analogous to the hotfix patches of previous versions and 
> the subscriber version has fixes that likely would have either not been done before or would 
> have waited for the next full version.   I'm sure the old hotfixes would have fallen somewhere 
> in between the level of the ones released now, but we're talking shades of grey now.
> 
> And those fixes that got deferred to the next version would never have been applied to the 
> previous versions, but with the new subscriber model for fixes, my understanding is that we are 
> being promised longer bug-fix support for the older versions.

I hope this is true, because it's more manageable. Was thrown off by both subscriber and non-subscriber "hotfixes", and all "hotfixes" in the past versions were available to everyone.

Bruce
0
Bruce
7/6/2015 10:32:07 PM
Steve Tyrakowski wrote:

> This model will hopefully give an incentive to do more bug fixes

From my POV this stimulates production of bugs to sell updates.

There is absolutely no motivation for bugs fixing in this model: why we
need to produce good code if we can sell fixes for good cash ?..

--
Alex
0
Alex
7/7/2015 4:47:59 AM
On 06/07/2015 19:06, quinn wildman wrote:
> Please see
> https://www.embarcadero.com/products/rad-studio/update-subscription.
> Note how Maintenance Updates are only included for customers that
> purchase Update Subscription.

Everything you do seems to be designed to drive customers away, at least 
those customers without vast sums of money.  I find this "pay for bug 
fixes" approach quite incredible! Quite incredible!

No wonder people are moving to competing products - especially for 
software which we don't charge for.  I'd like to continue to use Delphi, 
but you are pushing it more and more out of reach.


-- 
David
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
0
David
7/7/2015 6:54:24 AM
Alex,

| From my POV this stimulates production of bugs to sell updates.
| 
| There is absolutely no motivation for bugs fixing in this model: why
| we need to produce good code if we can sell fixes for good cash ?..

Boy, you really put a negative spin onto everything, don't you?    


-- 

   Q  --  XanaNews 1.19.1.372 -  2015-07-08 10:24:33
0
Quentin
7/8/2015 5:26:27 PM
> {quote:title=Steve Tyrakowski wrote:}{quote}
> In article <727943@forums.embarcadero.com>, Bruce H wrote:
> > > In reality, it has always been that way, except that instead of a subscription, you had to 
> buy 
> > > an upgrade to the next version to get many of the bug fixes, and then you'd have a new 
> version 
> > > with new features and new bugs.  You'd be lucky to get a quick patch or 2 after each 
> release 
> > > with the showstopper bugs fixed before development moves to a new version.
> > 
> > Really? It seems with all the Delphi versions I've purchased, I've always received free hot 
> fixes.
> 
> So you ignored this part of my post:
> > You'd be lucky to get a quick patch or 2 after each release 
> > with the showstopper bugs fixed before development moves to a new version.
> 
> There were 2 updates released, one for subscribers and one for non-subscribers.  My point is 
> that the one for non-subscribers is analogous to the hotfix patches of previous versions and 
> the subscriber version has fixes that likely would have either not been done before or would 
> have waited for the next full version.   I'm sure the old hotfixes would have fallen somewhere 
> in between the level of the ones released now, but we're talking shades of grey now.
> 

That is not exactly how things work (or used to work). Subscribers didn't get more fixes but non
subscribers got much less. Even some critical regression issues like one with TList<T> were
not provided for all owners of XE8. 

Bug fixes were never postponed for new version because Embarcadero would like to profit from
having people buy upgrades, but the fact that when next release development gets into full spin
there was simply not too much time to fiddle around with existing version. I am slightly 
oversimplifying description, but that is more or less main reason.

When the new version would hit the road, old versions would no longer receive any fixes or updates.
Occasionally, there were some hotfixes ported to older versions, but those were rare and usually
related to fixing showstopper issues that appeared with new Android/iOS versions and platform SDKs 
that were released in the meantime.

> And those fixes that got deferred to the next version would never have been applied to the 
> previous versions, but with the new subscriber model for fixes, my understanding is that we are 
> being promised longer bug-fix support for the older versions.

That is what we have been promised, longer support for old versions, that would not stop the minute
new version gets out. We still have to see how will that part work out and how many fixes would
actually be backported.

-- 
Dalija Prasnikar
0
Dalija
7/8/2015 8:28:57 PM
Quentin Correll wrote:

> Boy, you really put a negative spin onto everything, don't you?

Sometimes.

:-)

--
Alex
0
Alex
7/9/2015 3:18:04 AM
> {quote:title=Bruce H wrote:}{quote}
> Has Embarcadero's policy changed on paying for bugfixes? With the recent XE8 update it looks like we must have a subscription to get all the bug and hot fixes. I can understand paying for new features, but an additional charge to pay for bugs? Is this accurate or am I misinterpreting the latest update?
> 
> Bruce

I have paid maintenance so get links to any new versions, this is how I have gone from XE5 to XE8.

Is this not the same as a subscription, because to I never get links to updates sent to me?
0
Andy
7/14/2015 12:16:57 PM
Andy,

| I have paid maintenance so get links to any new versions, this is how
| I have gone from XE5 to XE8.
| 
| Is this not the same as a subscription, because to I never get links
| to updates sent to me?

I have used "SA"/maintenance "forever."  It is/was the same as what
they now call "Subscription."  I also have never gotten an e-mail
notification but my Registered User D/L page always has all the new
stuff on it.

-- 

   Q  --  XanaNews 1.19.1.372 -  2015-07-14 11:01:29
0
Quentin
7/14/2015 6:04:23 PM
Andy,

| I have paid maintenance so get links to any new versions, this is how
| I have gone from XE5 to XE8.
| 
| Is this not the same as a subscription, because to I never get links
| to updates sent to me?

I have used "SA"/maintenance "forever."  It is/was the same as what
they now call "Subscription."  I also have never gotten an e-mail
notification but my Registered User D/L page always has all the new
stuff on it.

-- 

   Q  --  XanaNews 1.19.1.372 -  2015-07-14 11:01:29
0
Quentin
7/14/2015 6:08:51 PM
Alex Belo wrote:

> Steve Tyrakowski wrote:
> 
> > This model will hopefully give an incentive to do more bug fixes
> 
> From my POV this stimulates production of bugs to sell updates.
> 
> There is absolutely no motivation for bugs fixing in this model: why
> we need to produce good code if we can sell fixes for good cash ?..

Like Q said, that is a pretty negative view, and wrong as well: the
idea of a subscription is that you get all versions issued in the
subscription period for no extra cost.

And producing bad quality will eventually turn down all users, so while
it may seem there is a very short term gain (there isn't, with
subscribers), in the mid and long term this would make them lose every
customer.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis        http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Almost all absurdity of conduct arises from the imitation of
 those whom we cannot resemble."
 -- Samuel Johnson
0
Rudy
7/18/2015 7:28:24 PM
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

> And producing bad quality will eventually turn down all users, so
> while it may seem there is a very short term gain (there isn't, with
> subscribers), in the mid and long term this would make them lose every
> customer.

I'm absolutely agree with this statement.

--
Alex
0
Alex
7/21/2015 5:01:58 AM
Alex Belo wrote:

> Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
> 
> > And producing bad quality will eventually turn down all users, so
> > while it may seem there is a very short term gain (there isn't, with
> > subscribers), in the mid and long term this would make them lose
> > every customer.
> 
> I'm absolutely agree with this statement.

And I am sure that Embarcadero would agree too.

-- 
Rudy Velthuis        http://www.rvelthuis.de

"It is better to have a permanent income than to be fascinating."
 -- Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)
0
Rudy
7/21/2015 6:47:44 AM
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