Can't view FM form using classic undock desktop? [Edit]

Is this a bug in XE2 or there is no way to show FM form on the classic undock desktop?

*not using embedded designer

Edited by: ah moy on Sep 1, 2011 11:28 PM
0
ah
9/2/2011 6:28:56 AM
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> {quote:title=ah moy wrote:}{quote}
> Is this a bug in XE2 or there is no way to show FM form on the classic undock desktop?

Don't now for sure but having seen some warning messages, it is probably not a bug. One current problem I am having is the lack of full documentation, eg the TMemo is largely undocumented at present.
0
Herbert
9/2/2011 4:23:04 AM
> {quote:title=ah moy wrote:}{quote}
> Is this a bug in XE2 or there is no way to show FM form on the classic undock desktop?
> 
> *not using embedded designer

Bug: http://qc.embarcadero.com/wc/qcmain.aspx?d=95201
Works with the designer embedded.
--
http://delphi.fosdal.com - Delphi Programming
http://plus.lars.fosdal.com - Google+

Edited by: Lars Fosdal on Sep 2, 2011 1:47 PM
0
Lars
9/2/2011 11:47:17 AM
Nobody tested that before they released XE2?  Really?

:shakes head:


"Lars Fosdal" wrote in message news:395161@forums.embarcadero.com...

> {quote:title=ah moy wrote:}{quote}
> Is this a bug in XE2 or there is no way to show FM form on the classic 
> undock desktop?
>
> *not using embedded designer

Bug: http://qc.embarcadero.com/wc/qcmain.aspx?d=95201
Works with the designer embedded.
--
http://delphi.fosdal.com - Delphi Programming
http://plus.lars.fosdal.com - Google+

Edited by: Lars Fosdal on Sep 2, 2011 1:47 PM
0
John
9/2/2011 12:31:11 PM
John Friel III wrote:

> Nobody tested that before they released XE2?  Really?
> 
> :shakes head:

why anyone would still want to use a floating designer makes me shake
me head...
0
Jeremy
9/2/2011 12:50:17 PM
> {quote:title=John Friel III wrote:}{quote}
> Nobody tested that before they released XE2?  Really?

Maybe not. It's hard to believe there are still people out there using the cumbersome, less productive floating designer. Most of us have moved into the 21st century by now. :)

I actually can't believe that EMBT is still supporting it. 

I know I wouldn't have tested it.
0
Ken
9/2/2011 1:32:31 PM
> {quote:title=Ken White wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=John Friel III wrote:}{quote}
> > Nobody tested that before they released XE2?  Really?
> 
> Maybe not. It's hard to believe there are still people out there using the cumbersome, less productive floating designer. Most of us have moved into the 21st century by now. :)
> 
> I actually can't believe that EMBT is still supporting it. 
> 
> I know I wouldn't have tested it.

Using dual screens, dual editor windows, multiple pdf,word documents, chrome/firefox/explorer at the same time I must say the floating designer works for me. Even though I could be considered a fossil, I think I'm using the most optimal development setup existing today.
0
Leif
9/2/2011 5:15:45 PM
> {quote:title=Ken White wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=John Friel III wrote:}{quote}
> > Nobody tested that before they released XE2?  Really?
> 
> Maybe not. It's hard to believe there are still people out there using the cumbersome, less productive floating designer. Most of us have moved into the 21st century by now. :)
> 
> I actually can't believe that EMBT is still supporting it. 
> 
> I know I wouldn't have tested it.

obviously, your development machine does not has multiple monitors!
0
ah
9/2/2011 5:37:10 PM
ah moy wrote:

> > {quote:title=Ken White wrote:}{quote}
> > > {quote:title=John Friel III wrote:}{quote}
> > > Nobody tested that before they released XE2?  Really?
> > 
> > Maybe not. It's hard to believe there are still people out there
> > using the cumbersome, less productive floating designer. Most of us
> > have moved into the 21st century by now. :)
> > 
> > I actually can't believe that EMBT is still supporting it. 
> > 
> > I know I wouldn't have tested it.
> 
> obviously, your development machine does not has multiple monitors!

I have a dual monitor setup. 30" and a 24" and I still use the embedded
designer. The floating designer is so 2001 (or whenever delphi 7 was
released).
0
Jeremy
9/2/2011 11:46:08 PM
> {quote:title=Jeremy North wrote:}{quote}
> ah moy wrote:
> 
> > > {quote:title=Ken White wrote:}{quote}
> > > > {quote:title=John Friel III wrote:}{quote}
> > > > Nobody tested that before they released XE2?  Really?
> > > 
> > > Maybe not. It's hard to believe there are still people out there
> > > using the cumbersome, less productive floating designer. Most of us
> > > have moved into the 21st century by now. :)
> > > 
> > > I actually can't believe that EMBT is still supporting it. 
> > > 
> > > I know I wouldn't have tested it.
> > 
> > obviously, your development machine does not has multiple monitors!
> 
> I have a dual monitor setup. 30" and a 24" and I still use the embedded
> designer. The floating designer is so 2001 (or whenever delphi 7 was
> released).

What is so much better with an embedded IDE?

I don't really have a preference and I certainly wouldn't say one was head and shoulder better than the other.
0
Ralph
9/3/2011 1:29:09 AM
On 9/2/2011 9:32 AM, Ken White wrote:
>> {quote:title=John Friel III wrote:}{quote}
>> Nobody tested that before they released XE2?  Really?
>
> Maybe not. It's hard to believe there are still people out there using the cumbersome, less productive floating designer. Most of us have moved into the 21st century by now. :)
>
> I actually can't believe that EMBT is still supporting it.
>
> I know I wouldn't have tested it.

If it's available, it should have been tested. Whether it should be there at all is a 
different issue.

Mike
0
Mike
9/3/2011 2:11:36 PM
Jeremy North wrote:

>why anyone would still want to use a floating 
>designer makes me shake me head...

Maybe because it's far superior to the embedded one and much more
convenient as well? With FireMonkey in this release, I am building a
new project and am appalled at the limitations of using the embedded
designer for anything with a large form or more than two or three
forms. For my little FMX project it is sort of ok, but it still
suffers from many bugs that do not affect the floating designer.

I find it so unusable on my larger projects that I far prefer to
restart the IDE each time I switch between one of them and a
FireMonkey project.

Why, for instance, are menus not rendered in the embedded designer?
That's probably the most glaring bug. With the floating designer, not
only are menus rendered in the designer, they work - if you make a
menu selection it either opens the submenu or goes to the OnClick or
ActionExecute event tied to the menu item in your code as well as
bringing the menu item into the OI. How can you work on a menu without
that visual confirmation and ease of navigation?

 - Leo
0
Leo
9/3/2011 5:25:56 PM
Jeremy North wrote:

>The floating designer is so 2001

So you are willing to use a far less convenient and capable tool
simply because it is newer?

 - Leo
0
Leo
9/3/2011 5:28:09 PM
> Why, for instance, are menus not rendered in the embedded designer?
> That's probably the most glaring bug.

I prefer the floating designer too. However, if you're referring to the FMX
TMainMenu, presumably that component maps to the system-wide menu bar on 
OS X (I can't check, but the source indicates it does), so showing a
Windows-style menu bar for it at design time wouldn't be appropriate.
0
Chris
9/3/2011 5:40:24 PM
Ralph Wesseling wrote:

> > {quote:title=Jeremy North wrote:}{quote}
> > ah moy wrote:
> > 
> > > > {quote:title=Ken White wrote:}{quote}
> > > > > {quote:title=John Friel III wrote:}{quote}
> > > > > Nobody tested that before they released XE2?  Really?
> > > > 
> > > > Maybe not. It's hard to believe there are still people out there
> > > > using the cumbersome, less productive floating designer. Most
> > > > of us have moved into the 21st century by now. :)
> > > > 
> > > > I actually can't believe that EMBT is still supporting it. 
> > > > 
> > > > I know I wouldn't have tested it.
> > > 
> > > obviously, your development machine does not has multiple
> > > monitors!
> > 
> > I have a dual monitor setup. 30" and a 24" and I still use the
> > embedded designer. The floating designer is so 2001 (or whenever
> > delphi 7 was released).
> 
> What is so much better with an embedded IDE?
> 
> I don't really have a preference and I certainly wouldn't say one was
> head and shoulder better than the other.

Embedded designer gives consistency on layout. Provides no dialogs that
overlapped have have to be clicked through or around to enable other
dialogs. Designed forms appear where they are left which is an issue
when one team member uses the IDE on a different monitor and/or
resolution. Designing large forms in floating layout means forms
obscure other applications and even dialogs in the IDE. The context
switching of a number of the IDE tools, such as tool palette and
structure pane is cumbersome.

You can't effective use the IDE to edit code and design a form given
the context switching nature of the items mentioned earlier, so while
designing a form I like to concentrate on that.

Embedded designer also lends more leverage to third parties to provide
custom experts that work with the designer surface.

When I have to go back and test components or experts in the floating
designer days, the floating dialogs drive me nuts. Thank goodness for
the Next Window command but I find working with the embedded designer
is more efficient. It took a while to get used to (in versions where
the floating designer wasn't an issue), but now I could never go back -
each to their own I guess. Given the choice, people may be reluctant to
give the embedded designer the chance that perhaps they had to back in
Delphi 8 / Delphi 2005 days. It may have be bought back in 2005 in the
hope of getting people who hate change not having to change to an
embedded designer.
0
Jeremy
9/4/2011 7:13:37 AM
Chris Rolliston <spam@gmail.com> wrote:

>if you're referring to the FMX TMainMenu, 

Actually I am referring to both FMX and VCL. I just checked a VCL app
and It does show the menu bar in the embedded designer, but it is
dead, unlike in the floating designer - you can see only the top level
choices. In an FMX app it is not rendered at all.

>presumably that component maps to the system-wide menu bar on OS X 

I'm not a Mac user, but I thought Mac interface was supposed to be
simple and intuitive. Having all apps share a single menu bar seems
incredibly confusing to me. Maybe I would have to try it out to
understand haw it can work.

>so showing a Windows-style menu bar for it 
>at design time wouldn't be appropriate.

IMHO it is no less appropriate than not showing it, since the app runs
in Windows as well. In fact my FMX is windows only, so there is no
justification for removing the image of the menu bar. 

The bottom line, though, is that the working menu bar at design time
is extremely useful in designing menus. And it would be even more
useful if it were made available for FMX, since the FMX  "menu
designer" is so incredibly lame. It appears to be a separate program
that is always on top - it keeps getting in my way as I write and
test, but clicking on it does not activate RS XE2. And, of course, it
does not provide much of the functionality needed to design a menu.

 - Leo
0
Leo
9/4/2011 4:52:37 PM
> > presumably that component maps to the system-wide menu bar on OS X 
> 
> I'm not a Mac user, but I thought Mac interface was supposed to be
> simple and intuitive. Having all apps share a single menu bar seems
> incredibly confusing to me.

It's been a feature of the Mac interface since... forever I think.

> IMHO it is no less appropriate than not showing it, since the app runs
> in Windows as well. In fact my FMX is windows only, so there is no
> justification for removing the image of the menu bar. 

It's not a matter of 'removing' - it's whether to add something like it.
The reason even the embedded VCL designer (or for that matter, the WinForms
designer in Visual Studio) has to emulate the main menu when one is set is
because Windows simply doesn't support a parented window having a real menu
bar.

> The bottom line, though, is that the working menu bar at design time
> is extremely useful in designing menus. And it would be even more
> useful if it were made available for FMX, since the FMX  "menu
> designer" is so incredibly lame.

It appears to be the standard FMX items editor, and I agree, it makes
designing menus very tedious. However, I think this is a separate issue to
whether a menu bar should be shown on the form at design time or not.
0
Chris
9/4/2011 5:23:14 PM
> {quote:title=ah moy wrote:}{quote}
> obviously, your development machine does not has multiple monitors!

Bzzzzt. Wrong. :)

Both my work system and my home development machine have dual 22" monitors.
0
Ken
9/6/2011 5:22:01 PM
> {quote:title=Jeremy North wrote:}{quote}
> > What is so much better with an embedded IDE?

Nice answer. :)
0
Ken
9/6/2011 5:24:13 PM
> {quote:title=Mike Reublin wrote:}{quote}
> On 9/2/2011 9:32 AM, Ken White wrote:
> >> {quote:title=John Friel III wrote:}{quote}
> >> Nobody tested that before they released XE2?  Really?
> >
> > Maybe not. It's hard to believe there are still people out there using the cumbersome, less productive floating designer. Most of us have moved into the 21st century by now. :)
> >
> > I actually can't believe that EMBT is still supporting it.
> >
> > I know I wouldn't have tested it.
> 
> If it's available, it should have been tested. Whether it should be there at all is a 
> different issue.
> 
Actually the floating form designer was the original D1 format and continued through to D7. Ignoring the thing labelled Delphi 8, it was quite irritating having to use the embedded designer in D9 onwards and as soon as the floating format was re-enabled, I like many long time developers, switched back to Classic Undocked with floating forms. I find the current problem annoying, but not a show stopper. 

It is not about productivity, it is about personal preference and convenience. In this context, there have been a few really stupid comments on this thread that help no-one. Please try to be professional.
0
Willy
9/12/2011 1:48:29 PM
ah moy wrote:

> obviously, your development machine does not has multiple monitors!

+1!

It's a real PITA having to use the embedded designer.  :-(

-- 
Andy Syms
Technosoft Systems Ltd

"Logic is in the eye of the logician."
 -- Gloria Steinem
0
Andy
9/13/2011 2:52:39 PM
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