It appears that MSDE is as fast as SQL Server...

Using a single account, i.e. sa, ASP.NET, and a database whose largest table contains 300,000+ records. I created a multithreaded program that will automatically fetch data-driven pages from the web server.

Here's what I got.
My old Pentium II-500MHz computer with MSDE and web server can put out more than 40 pages per second without dropping a single database connection. This translates to hundreds of users that can use a website with an MSDE backend.
It appears that MSDE can service more users (on the web) than what we are being told perhaps by Microsoft.
0
torvix2000
2/17/2003 6:37:18 AM
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Interesting... MSDE is built on the SQL Server Engine ;D

Maybe its a marketing scheme to get people to purchase SQL Server to get all the ent. features. ;D
I like MSDE :-D, nice addition to the sql server family
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t0nyh0
2/17/2003 8:42:42 AM
I think this might be because of connection pooling.

If the connections are pooled then one connection might be serving several users.

Kind regards,

WesleyB
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WesleyB
2/17/2003 12:04:33 PM
Yes, perhaps because of connection pooling. But also NO. 

Great, I tested the MSDE-driven web server on a more powerful computer (Athlon XP 1700+) and it puts out nearly 70 datadriven pages per second.
Perhaps, MSDE will not be as fast if we use it on desktop database applications.
But, hey! We are creating web pages.
I don't know when the so called "query governor" of MSDE will kick in to make it run slower. Perhaps if we use more than 5 unique user accounts. But you can avoid this in ASP.NET, i.e. you can opt to use a single account.
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torvix2000
2/18/2003 3:42:50 AM
t0nyh0,

Perhaps, Microsoft didn't really make MSDE so much less powerful because they know that once you use MSDE, then you'll learn about the enterprise features of the full blown server.
Actually, I like things such as failover clustering, mirroring, etc.
However, using MSDE, we can still implement some sort of "fault-tolerance" by good backup strategy.
We know that MSDE can perform full, differential, and transaction log backups. Mix them up and we have full recoverability capability.
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torvix2000
2/18/2003 4:06:21 AM
Performance goes down seriously after five concurrent users.

That is 5 connections hitting the db at the same time.... For many sites this might not be a problem, for larger sites it can.
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Dutch
2/18/2003 6:24:54 AM
Dutch,

Thanks for the info.
So, for desktop app, MSDE will become slower after five concurrent users.
But for web applications using a single user account, MSDE is fast and can serve hundreds or perhaps a thousand users. Imagine at least 40-60 data driven pages per second.
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torvix2000
2/18/2003 9:02:29 AM
::So, for desktop app, MSDE will become slower after five concurrent users. 

No. It is optimised for IMHO 5 concurrent actions. Just open connections dont do anything. It is pretty arcane stuff -basically a limited threadpool or something, nothing hard coded, so it is hard to set "real limits". More than 5 concurrent actions, though, will start to take performance down.
Thomas Tomiczek
PowerNodes ApS
(Microsoft MVP C#/.NET)
---
Building a Website? Try the PowerNodes CMS - http://www.powernodes.com/
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thona
2/18/2003 9:36:22 AM
thona,

I have tested the same web server. This time using the full blown SQL server.
The result:
The server was able to put out 110 pages per second.
So that's 70 for MSDE against 110 for SQL Server. The number of threads (translates to users each of which can open many pages per second) is 20. The automatic page-fetcher I wrote fetch another page as soon as after it received a page.
This small difference is perhaps because of the stored procedures that I used. Perhaps if I use other SQL statements, then Microsoft SQL Server will really make MSDE eat dust.
But this shows that MSDE is not really bad. Or perhaps, if I make the number of threads higher. Okay, I'll do that next time.

But this means that we can really use MSDE to power up a production web site that serves hundreds of users.
Well, actually. We do have a production web site powered up by MSDE. And since I wonder why our client (the one who owns the site that we developed) does not complain, I decided to do this testing.
Now I know why. They don't complain because their site is still very fast.
Hey, don't bash me for using MSDE for our client. After all, it gets the job done.
0
torvix2000
2/19/2003 3:10:48 AM
Well, I DO bash you.

MSDE == SQL SERVER. They talk the same language, use the same database format and are built from the same codebase.
THEY CAN USE THE SAME STOPRED PROCEDURES.
They are esseitneially the same database.
The only difference: The SQL Server handles more than 5 concurrent operations, while the MSDE tops out as 5. Oh, and the MSDE has a max database size and some other missing features (which you have yet to encounter).
Which you have wonderfully demonstrated.
I will never bash anyone for using MSDE - but comparing MSDE and SQL Server and not realising you talk of the same database - this is really nice :-) Heck, you can administrate a MSDE instance with the admin tools of the SQL Server the diference is the tuning and the licensing.


Thomas Tomiczek
PowerNodes ApS
(Microsoft MVP C#/.NET)
---
Building a Website? Try the PowerNodes CMS - http://www.powernodes.com/
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thona
2/19/2003 3:33:02 PM
Thona,

If you are going to Bash me because you think I got it all wrong, then I'll have to bash you for that.
Everybody in this part of the forum knows very well what MSDE is.
Do you think I don't know what MSDE is.
I'm the type of programmer who will not always believe what others are saying about a particular product until I have examined them myself.
Now, tell me...
Who in this forum does not want to know the real limits of MSDE?
Can I not use MSDE and ASP.NET to serve hundreds of users?
Will I have to use another free database server in this case?
They want answers. They don't want to hear that "MSDE tops at 5 concurrent actions?". That's as blurred as a black hole.
Now, go on.... ask everybody here whether they want to know the real limits of MSDE.
Ask them if they want to know whether MSDE can really power up a production website with hundreds of users.
I have worked with the enterprise versions of Microsoft SQL Server since version 7.0 up to 2000. I also know the limitations of MSDE as what Microsoft tells us.
------------
Here is an excerpt from Books Online ---- which you probably "parrots" around:
"Both the SQL Server 2000 Personal Edition and SQL Server 2000 Desktop Engine have a concurrent workload governor that limits the performance of the database engine when more than 5 batches are executed concurrently. For more information about the concurrent workload governor, see SQL Server 2000 Databases on the Desktop."
------------
Now, this translates to what?
Will you start to see performance degradation of MSDE 6 batches? At 7 batches? At 8?
How can you know if you are not going to test it yourself.
Nobody is stupid enough to use MSDE to power up a production site with thousands of users who can open up 500 data driven pages per second.

0
torvix2000
2/21/2003 5:14:54 AM
It's useless talking to you.

It seems that my last post (prior to this) directed to you was not approved.
Don't know why.
Go ask your Microsoft brothers why MSDE was upped to 10 concurrent batches contrary to what was in the manual.
Opps... You don't know this? Go figure that out.
0
torvix2000
2/21/2003 11:04:12 AM
I'm going to jump in here.

MSDE is free.
If you could write a RDBMS as good as MSDE, would you give it out for free?
Would you?
I would guess not. Even small components like a datepicker sell for $50. MSDE doesn't tie you in to any particular SQL product. You can port your app afterwards to Oracle if you so wish, you just need to change a bit of T-SQL here and there.
To me, MSDE is the stepping stone from MSAccess to SQL Server. It doesn't have to be, but then again, Microsoft isn't a charity (last time I looked) yet they still give you web matrix and MSDE (cut down SQL Server) for free. What do they have to do to make people happy? Give it away??? Ooops = they are..
Last I heard, SQL Server and Windows 2003 were kicking the TPC butts of Oracle et al. So why not hook into some of that tech for free? If you don't like it, use something else.

Cheers - Damian Barrow
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mr
2/21/2003 11:08:15 PM
mr pike,

Thanks.
Microsoft is making people happy. But as you pointed out, it is not a charity. That's why they are giving away MSDE for free and at the same time, limiting its powers.
If Microsoft SQL Server and Windows Server can kick the TPC butts of Oracle et al... then they can really afford to make MSDE a little bit powerful.
Notice that I have included the number of test records: 300,000 for MSDE.
I'm not going to compare MSDE against Microsoft SQL Server 2000 using 1,000,000 records. Or if you need complex analysis of the data. There's no argument about that.
I'm not even going to compare MSDE against MySQL and Firebird for 1,000,000 records.
Or, I'll compare MSDE against them and prove that MSDE eats dust.
0
torvix2000
2/22/2003 12:21:00 AM
Use mySQL then. I like mySQL. It is also free if you don't want the features of InnoDB. It is open source. No problems with mySQL. Not really played with Firebird. I'm sure its very good.

I'm not trying to persuade everyone to use MSDE. (I don't think anyone is). Maybe from now we should append all messages on this SQL Server and MSDE forum with:
"Please be sure to check out the features of other RDBMS's available before oohing and ahhing at the rich feature set of SQL Server. Thanks."
:P
Can we drop this now? Its pointless.
Cheers - Damian Barrow
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mr
2/22/2003 9:11:14 AM
So advice to users:

Use MSDE if it suits you and your database will not really grow into million records and your program will not give it more than it can handle.
I this way, you'll have good management tools and you can develop applications faster.
Or if you have access to SQL server, then use it.
If you prefer free database servers, then use MySQL or Firebird.
In this case, you'll be less productive until the time you manage to pinpoint the problems of using their providers. Or their creators "perfected" their providers.
I just don't like being bashed for posting figures about MSDE capability and how MSDE can be used on a production scale. Or comparing MSDE and its full blown brother.
0
torvix2000
2/23/2003 1:33:15 AM
Oh, just add me add ONE point:

THe big advantage os MSDE is that it IS SQL Server.
Means: if you "outrun it" by demand, you:
(a) detach your database
(b) uninstall MSDE
(c) install SQL Server
(d) attach the database.
Thats not so easy to do when you run on MySQL :-)

Thomas Tomiczek
PowerNodes ApS
(Microsoft MVP C#/.NET)
---
Building a Website? Try the PowerNodes CMS - http://www.powernodes.com/
0
thona
2/23/2003 11:22:39 AM
I actually <ul>really</ul> like Torvix's answer (Maybe his/her name is too close to Linux for us Microsofties to be objective :P )

MSDE is for development. After that - you have to pay for production use.
Using MSDE for development works *really* well within an MS environment, even within a Macromedia environment. Using mySQL doesn't due to as Torvix says - buggy connectors.
In defence, I know that the MS teams have been working closely with 3rd parties so the failure of the connectors lands on the 3rd parties mat, not MS's. I digress..
Once you are into production, thats when I think decisions need to be made. If you can get away with none InnoDB mySQL, cool (From a purists POV). I'd always recommend SQL Server 2k just for its sexiness, its stability and ease of use down the line. Not every company can afford a DBA and I would say that SQL Server is easier to maintain than mySQL. I have seen a 3rd party in my company be uber-smug about their mySQL solution which ran flawlessy for 4mths none-stop. Then it died and they were totally stuck for about 9 (unacceptable) hrs.
Cheers - Damian Barrow
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mr
2/27/2003 11:25:11 PM
You have a lot of truth in your statement, pike - a tremendous knowledge that most people miss.

Yes, mySQL is fine as long as it runs.
Problems start, when you suddenly discuver that you DO miss a lot of the "industrial features".
SADLY (sort of) problems happen very seldom, so by the time you realize that you are doomed, well, things have gone way too far.
I would never ever touch MySQL for a transactional database - using it for a special CMS or online shop catalogue (read only data, basically) is fine. If something goes wrong, you just upload a backup :-)

Thomas Tomiczek
PowerNodes ApS
(Microsoft MVP C#/.NET)
---
Building a Website? Try the PowerNodes CMS - http://www.powernodes.com/
0
thona
2/28/2003 6:36:28 AM
Wait a second!!!!

Thomas, you're actually admitting that mySQL can be useful for ANY kind of application? You're admitting this in public?!!?
Cool!
:-D
Don
Don Kiely, MCP, MCSD
In the Last Frontier, Interior Alaska
Please post questions and replies to the forum! And remember to MARK AS ANSWER when someone definitively answers a question or resolves a problem!
0
donkiely
3/1/2003 4:08:49 AM
Torvix==Unix... Hahaha!

I think that if ASP.NET put a separate thread for MySQL, then it should also do it for FireBird and PostgreSQL which I think are way better than MySQL.
There are things I sometimes hate with open source.
Their principles are theoretically very very very good!
But when we wake up and return to the real world... shucks... they sometimes stink. They hate Microsoft but are at the same time trying to emulate Microsoft's products. And doing it better????!!!
No wonder Microsoft is still here.... hehehe...
But Microsoft is not that bad. If Bill Gates was not wise enough to keep his rights on DOS, then perhaps we would still be living in a world where softwares are still developed by government fundings or bundled by IBM with their IBM PC's. Very very expensive of course.
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torvix2000
3/3/2003 5:01:26 AM
Thomas,

Nah... I won't use MySQL even for a CMS or online shop catalogue. I'd use Firebird, instead. That is if I have a choice.
We use MySQL because we have a previous database that we share with some of our Java developers. That's our only reason for using MySQL.
But MySQL with .NET? No way!!!
0
torvix2000
3/3/2003 5:15:15 AM
See - we CAN all just love each other and get along (With the right connectors that is :P )


Cheers - Damian Barrow
0
mr
3/3/2003 5:39:29 AM
Torvix THANK YOU for this post! 

I have spent 3 hours around in this forum, before finding some actual USABLE test results. I have read thru numerous discussion of the difference between 5 concurrent actions and 5 concurrent connections (most of which involved thona, using a harsh tone and a very special spelling technique. However, I can understand why repeating the same points can make one harsh and fast-typing :-)). And finally I found this post - and now I can go to bed, knowing that my site will run just fine using MSDE, even if I might get 20-30 users logged in at the same time. And if more should arrive, they will be happy to take a place in the queue for a few milliseconds.
Well, thanks to Torvix for test results - and to Thona for theoretical insight - and to Pike for stepping in :-).
Goodnight, and kind regards,
Rasmus
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ups101
6/4/2003 11:50:22 PM
ups101,

That's what we do... We sometimes bash each others... constructively...
Sometimes, we do like being bashed... It makes the forums much more alive.
I'm also a JAVA programmer(my first job) and I always get bashed in their forums, too. That is when I say that I find some things in .NET that I like very much. Sad to say, you .NET developers are more objective. While JAVA developers will bash you comprehensively if you make so much as a little bit of misstep.
But hey, you guys still haven't solved the PERFECT GIGABIT UPLOAD technology... I'm waiting for it.
0
torvix2000
7/23/2003 11:31:11 PM
Isnt there severe licensing restrictions on MSDE deployment? I know for internet web sites, you need a special per-processor license for Sql Server, or at least you used to need one. I would assume microsoft probably doesnt want people skirting around that income stream.

Wouldnt it be against the licensing terms to deploy MSDE on an internet website? I surely wouldnt want to set up one of my clients with that kind of licensing liability if so....

Keith Rome


MCSD, MCDBA, MCAD, CIC

0
krome
7/24/2003 5:45:37 PM
Sleep well by first reading the license agreement of MSDE.
0
torvix2000
7/26/2003 4:50:35 AM
Please see the follwing articles:

Integrating MSDE 2000 with Your Applications
Licensing
Developers can freely distribute MSDE 2000 solutions built with SQL Server 2000 Developer Edition, Microsoft Visual Studio® .NET development tools, or with Microsoft Office 2000 Developer edition. See the End-User License Agreement (EULA) for the full redistribution and royalty terms.

How to Obtain MSDE 2000
Visual Studio .NET (Architect, Developer, and Professional Editions)
MSDE 2000 redistribution rights are included in the end-user license agreement (EULA) for Visual Studio .NET Architect, Developer, and Professional Editions for the purpose of developing applications in Visual Studio that are fully compatible with SQL Server 2000. You will need client access licenses (CALs) or processor licenses to deploy MSDE 2000 applications that access SQL Server back-end data and resources.
ASP.NET Web Matrix Tool
MSDE 2000 redistribution rights are included in the EULA for the ASP.NET Web Matrix tool for the purpose of developing applications in that tool that are fully compatible with SQL Server 2000. You will need client access licenses (CALs) or processor licenses to deploy MSDE 2000 applications that access SQL Server back-end data and resources.

Hope this helps clarify the licensing issue raised in this thread.

Regards
Wayne Phipps
Time is the greatest teacher... unfortunately, it kills all of its students



LearnVisualStudio.Net
0
Wayne
7/26/2003 10:00:54 AM
VERY interesting thread. I've been looking for answers about MSDE performance, and this helps me decide what to use on my web site. Another article -- http://www.eggheadcafe.com/articles/20021110.asp -- comes to similar conclusions.

My production Win2K server runs Domino Server and IIS 5, which means I can't use connection pooling. Any ideas if this situation would drastically degrade MSDE's performance? My database pages (using ASP and getting ready for .NET) are hit by tens (not hundreds) of users...
-- Steve
0
saunan
7/31/2003 10:17:43 PM
saunan,

The only time I was able to degrade the performance of MSDE with few connections was when I executed long-running queries for each connection.
0
torvix2000
8/11/2003 4:14:40 AM
Reply:

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